H and I have been having issues off and on for quite a while, mostly centering on his relationship with one of his employees. They have a lot in common and enjoy each other. Our families are so intertwined its like we are related. But I started getting obsessed with how close they were,(others pointed it out to me and I focused on it and complained to H) which led to H and I having issues. I found out that he had even spent a quite a few times alone with her and lied to me about it.
2 weeks after our daughter's wedding this summer he dropped the ILYBINILWY bomb. He was DONE with me. I begged and pleaded and defended and explained and cried and cried and cried.I lost 20 pounds in that month. Couldnt eat or sleep. At my lowest I found this site and, through lurking, started to follow some of the advice. He had moved downstairs, so I gave him space. I told him if he wanted a D, he would have to do the work- I was going to pursue saving the marriage only. I GAL, which he noticed. I was cheerful and listened when he shared. He seemed to be happier with me (still, no touching). But he told me he was moving out this week.I asked him if he needed help, which shocked him. I filled my schedule up to leave him alone more (I have always let him plan our activities in the past).
So here's the confusing part.He kept waiting up for me to come home. Or calling me to talk (I dont call, text, or open conversations with him now). He moved out while I was hiking this morning, but came back to watch football and asked me to come watch with him. when I left to leave him alone, he found me and said (sadly), I guess I'll be going. Do I detach more? He's so sad, but doesn't seem to want to work on our marriage. He wants to support me financially still and allow me to stay in our house and will even keep his stuff here and help me care for the house, but he keeps telling me he doesnt want me. Im in limbo and I miss him even when he's right next to me...
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Ciluzen I am right with you.
My w moved into the other room in February and spent 4 months deciding whether she wanted to stay married. I was trying everything, just didn't give her enough space.
I would say keep on detaching, because me not detaching didn't work out so well. I have detached now, but it may be too late. She has lived on her own for 3 months, and all her stuff is out of the house. She wasted no time doing that.
I even helped her move stuff to storage also.
My wife was so sad too. Especially while making up her mind on what to do. I know if we could have worked together it would have worked
Bobby the trouble is often by the time they leave they are not interested in doing any work and this is where we find ourselves we want to work but they do not
I found this on another thread posted by Sandi2 she is a wealth of knowledge
I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, but please understand that a WAW is a different creature from the girl you M. The girl you M was in love with you. Your WAW no longer feels in love with you. Your bride wanted you to fill her up emotionally. The woman you have now feels emotionally dead to you. You used to be all she thought about and she wanted to please you. Somewhere, that faded away. She wanted you to compliment her when you thought she looked great. Now, it kind of irks her to hear it from you. She admired and respected you as a man, But she has neither for you now. She wanted to be with you sexually. But now she no longer desires you.
Even when PT is not the primary LL, people in love still want to be touched by their S. People who have a high drive may still have sex with their S, but the in-love feelings aren't there. People on the board have different opinions about having sex with a WAS. If there was always a healthy sex life in the M......who knows? But if she wasn't the one who usually initiated, IMHO I would have to say she isn't interested. "Most" WAW's feel completely "done" with the M. Once done.....she feels that's it. Can't go any further with it, and won't try.
She doesn't get to that point overnight. The WAW feels very unhappy, neglected, and lonely for a long time. The H may say it's not true, but it's her feelings and it's how she remembers it (right or wrong). She feels "empty" and then she begins to feel "dead" inside.
When she feels dead, she's in an extremely vulnerable position. B/c the first male who says just the right words to make her feels special, makes her feel pretty, or young & sexy.....she is in danger of stepping into an emotional realm that will thrive on her emotions. The more ego food she gets, the stronger the emotional fantasy.....and pretty soon, you've got a monster who has replaced the girl you M.
Yes, she will start looking really good! She'll work out, dress in younger looking clothes, change her hair, wear more make-up, and some start hitting the party life. (That's why I personally think she has another man's attention....or is looking.) I mean, you have to ask yourself why is she suddenly doing this (especially when she's so obviously disinterested in her H). And if there isn't a "why", then you have to ask yourself who. It is usually a who that sets off the ego spark in a woman (who has felt dead for a long time). Once she feels that little spark, she sees there's life after death, and she's not about to give it up.
Now, your nature will want to do all those things you should have done a long time ago. But you see, she doesn't want you to do it now. In fact, if you try to do it now, it will backfire and make her pull away quicker than ever. That brings me back to the touching. Some DB coaches have advised certain folks to do a little touch to see the response. Depending on that particular stitch. But it sure doesn't happen in all cases! B/c the WAW is no longer attracted to her H, and she no longer desires his attention, compliments, or touches. In fact, she goes to the extreme the other direction from her old self. It seems anything he does simply turns her off, and that's why anything that resembles romantic intentions will get you bad results. And each time a LBH tries that route, she has to show him that she's serious about ending the M, b/c she thinks you aren't accepting it.
Now I just need to follow this myself
Take care
Ghost
I kind of know what I need to do with detaching, but H is trying so hard to be the sweet caring person that I have always loved and that makes it hard to remember- he says doesn't want me.
We are both going to an event next week. I told him I was going to have a good time, I would try not to get in his way, and that I would not make it awkward. He told me he would look for me, watch me at times because he always had, and buy me a drink because it would make him happy. Hunh?
He says he still wants to be able to talk to me. So do I discourage that and truly detach? One of the reasons we had trouble was that he felt I didn't love him, only tolerated him, for years. So he decided to do what made him happy and to heck with how I felt. That was when I started seeing him with his friend more. I'm afraid if I detach too much that it will just make him feel his original feelings of being unloved were spot on, especially now that he is in his own place.
Cil, my WW/WAW still wants me to sit with her at ballgames and church. I have stopped doing that. She wants us to be, and still claims we are, best friends. I have trouble not getting mad when I see her right now (entering anger phase?) Anyway, if they can still string us along, we are plan b. Or, they think we will give them more in the divorce. Or whatever they think.
I have to pull back to protect myself, and my boys. And to detach. And to show her, that I won't be there to catch her when she falls, etc.
Every sitch is different, and I am doing what I hope is right for.mine. my .02, for whatever good it is.
Good luck!
Your two cents is good, tough stuff. My GAL and 180 (communicating with friends instead of relying on him to do it, not relying on him to make plans for our weekends or free time or anything, doing what I am interested in instead of following him around like a puppy) have not gone un-noticed, but I'm scared to death that detachment might play into his feelings of not being loved and backfire. It sounds like, in your situation, it might help, though. And with young kids, protecting them from the weirdness of the seesaw effect while DBing is of great importance. Good luck to you,too.
At first glimpse, I would say that your H is in an A with this female employee. Unlike most wayward wives, I think the more mature man tends to feel more guilt about cheating, at least in the beginning. He could be trying to let you down easier (his opinion of it) by asking you to watch TV or getting you a drink, continue paying for your home, etc. He has been with you for a long time. Perhaps he still feels a responsibility for you, as most men his age would. Although, this is speculation, b/c we don't have much of the story yet.
You must stop crying in front of him. No more pleading and begging. This approach only makes it worse. It doesn't attract him, when you behave this way. He knows what he has done to you! Now is the time to make a complete turn around. God gave women the ability, if you'll woman up and do it.
No more acting pathetic. Let him go his merry way. He has made a choice, and you cannot beg hard enough or cry enough to change his mind. However, there are things you can do. In order for him to change his mind, he will need to see you being a different woman than what he's seeing now.
You said you lost 20 lbs in one month. That's pretty staggering for a female in her forties! You need to be on a healthy diet and exercise plan, b/c you must stay healthy in order to do what's needed, and to survive this ordeal. If you can't sleep, can't control your crying, have panic attacks, etc., please go your doctor and tell him what you are experiencing.
Give us more about your marital history and how the relationship was.
Read those links Cadet sent. They are your tools.
Hi ciluzen,
I am sorry you are here. Detaching is more for you right now than for them. You need to detach so you don't drown in the craziness. The good news, is when you do detach and turn the focus to you, you become happier, and they notice that.
Just keep posting and practice patience. This can be a long ride, and there is no quick fix.
(((((hugs)))))
Thank you, sandi2. I actually did stop all of the pleading and crying after I found DB. I'm pretty sure he is in more of an EA with this friend/employee. She is very friendly and fun to be around,I even enjoy her company!
When I was a SAHM, I babysat her kids for years. I (we)still am/are very involved with her family. Our social group is comprised of people we met through her as are many of his clients. I have always been a) socially lazy b) an introvert and c)happy to follow along. Both she and my husband love to be social, run the show, and are very good at reaching out to make things happen. I fell into the trap of relying on them to organize all of our events,get togethers, and even vacations. More and more my husband would talk to and text others to plan our weekend activities,and I LET HIM! Then, when I watched him having so much fun, even when my energy or interest lagged (for example, I'm not a drinker...he likes to bartend), I started to feel ignored, left out of the loop,and even abandoned. I started to withdraw. When he would later check on me or recap the event later, I would ALWAYS complain and tell him how bad he made me feel. He has now told me it just became expected that he would always end up doing something wrong,so he stopped even trying to make me happy because I always ended up ruining his enjoyable times.Due to the fact that I started to focus on their closeness, I actually became jealous and made myself miserable just seeing them laugh together, even though they were with an entire group. And he (told me) he made himself stop caring about what I felt. HE DETACHED.
So, after he dropped the bombshell that he loves and cares for me very much, but doesn't like me and has made himself stop being attracted to me, I took a few soul searching crying pleading weeks BEFORE I found DB. Now I am
a)reading material I have found on this site including DR and DB
b)trying to reach out to people I've met through work and cultivate friendships NOT in common with H
c) pursue interests that H did not enjoy but I did and find others who can do them with me (art shows, hiking,indy and foreign films- meetup.com is an awesome help in this!)
d)paying attention to self care (I've always been a health nut, but my pushing those habits on him grated on his nerves). My weight loss was a bit much and due to stress, now I'm just trying to keep that in check.
e) talking to others. I begin my search for a marriage counselor (for me) tomorrow.
I am, as I've said, just having trouble detaching and worrying about how far to go. He is obviously hurting and finding this decision of his difficult (good, right?)and says he still wants to be friends and parent our 2 adult daughters together. He is leaving much of his stuff here (after 25 yrs we have a lot of stuff)and keeps saying that he is only breaking up one couch set.He keeps telling me I'm not a bad person, I'm a good and nice person, that he's not telling me I should change, there's nothing wrong with me. I have told him I own my bad behavior and how it has contributed and even caused most of our problems, and that I do need to change because I have made myself unhappy. Ugh. I really feel awful for my part in this mess and need to do a lot of work on me.
Oh, and as far as our marriage before the "stuff", we were best friends, partners, involved and loving parents, and everyone talked of what a great loving couple we were. I stayed at home and he worked, but I coached soccer, painted pictures for his office (art degree)and sold pictures to his clients, invested and ran our finances,taught art lessons, and made our house the house that everyone liked to send their kids over to play at. We were a happy partnership. What changed? I withdrew. I felt I slowed everyone down when we skiied (the kids got so much better than me) so I stopped going. I stressed about their teenaged years (school, social stuff, sports, etc)and became nagging, controlling and overly involved.My attention to him and his needs decreased, I was even irritated when he would show me too much physical attention in public...told him to stop. What I wouldn't give to back in time and kick my own butt.
She is very friendly and fun to be around,I even enjoy her company!
When I was a SAHM, I babysat her kids for years. I (we)still am/are very involved with her family.
If I were you, I'd have to stop the involvement with her family. He has spent two night with her?
He has now told me it just became expected that he would always end up doing something wrong,so he stopped even trying to make me happy because I always ended up ruining his enjoyable times.Due to the fact that I started to focus on their closeness, I actually became jealous and made myself miserable just seeing them laugh together, even though they were with an entire group. And he (told me) he made himself stop caring about what I felt. HE DETACHED.
I totally get it. However, we women are our own worst enemies at times. Let's face it, jealousy is due to insecurities. Sadly, we take it out on the guy we love, which pushes him away.
So, after he dropped the bombshell that he loves and cares for me very much, but doesn't like me and has made himself stop being attracted to me, I took a few soul searching crying pleading weeks BEFORE I found DB.
Do you buy it? How does one make themselves stop being attracted to the person they love and care about sooooo much?
Men lose attraction for us when we become unattractive. Not just in the physical sense, but the part that made them fall in love with us. That inner beauty that every woman can have.
I like the things you are doing! Sounds very healthy and good for the soul. Keep it up, okay?
I believe the fastest way to our H's heart is to become the woman he fell in love with.
You have a long history with him. I doubt he will forget it.
Have you read very much on MLC?
I have been reading about MLC. The MLC boards have been very helpful, as have many of the boards here. In regards to your question about him spending two nights with her, no. I meant that I had made it known to him that his relationship with her appeared to be inappropriately close and that they should not be doing so much together. So he simply lied to me two times that I know of that they had done activities together. Of course karma being what it is, I found out.
So, H moved out Saturday and came back to watch tv. I was cheerful, helpful, and listened with interest and eye contact to his stories, concerns, and news. I did not offer to make dinner (I love to feed people) and when he told me to come watch football with him, I remembered after 20 minutes that I was detaching, and went back upstairs. He came up about 30 minutes later, looking crushed, and said he guessed he would leave. I told him he was welcome to stay and watch tv. He decided to leave but said he would call to check on me in the morning and come pick up more things later.
I didn't receive a call in the morning and started to do my old obsessing, waiting, getting myself down over lack of hearing from him. Basically being needy. So I went outside to do yard work. When he came by that evening, I was cheerful, but stuck to my tasks instead of following him around as he collected things on his list.I was helpful when he asked if we had certain things he could take.
He grabbed a beer when he was done and went to watch tv, but came back up when I didn't follow him. He sat down and started talking. He had told his employees, parents, friends that he had moved out. He told me his dad had said leave the door open for reconciliation...he said he told him he was. That was different from what he had previously said to me, but no expectations is my new mantra. He also spoke about asking the apartment manager about how hard it would be to break his lease if he didn't want to stay the whole time. We just talked,or rather, he did. I mostly listened.
I did go through the pantry and fridge and offer him foods that he eats that I don't really care about. I also offered two watercolors I had done (our daughters skiing and one of our oldest girl with his grandmother) when he asked if he could put something on the walls.
I have no expectations, but does that conflict with having hope? Does detaching mean I can't be nice and giving to someone I still love? I am working on me, but I don't want to change the parts of me that are good. Just the things that got me into this mess. He keeps saying he doesn't know what he's doing and doesn't want to abandon me.
I still need to find a counselor,too.
So tonight I am having a little trouble holding it together. I went to work and kept myself fairly busy, and then went to a friend's child's sporting event, which was great and I got to talk to that friend. But now I'm home and alone, eating alone, and just wishing he would call or come home. I've always been sort of ok alone when I was certain he'd be home. The waiting wasn't so bad. But right now, there is no certainty of him calling and I refuse to call or text unless its necessary. I haven't yet created any friendships in which people just call to talk, or where I feel comfortable doing that, and I don't want to rely on my daughters all of the time. I have booked activities as part of my branching out and trying to make friends but that's so new. He's always been the communicator and social director. He is the friend in our group of friends; I'm just the tag-along. He told me that one of our mutual friends called him Sunday to see how he was doing, and then said she thought of calling me but didn't because she was afraid of upsetting me. Ive talked to her and known her for almost 20 years. I really understand now how my allowing him to do all the leg work socially has screwed myself over.
I'm really missing him and his friendship.
Hello Cil -
Sounds like it's time to start making your own friends. Friends that know you as CILUZEN and not CILUZEN's husband's wife.
What kinds of things are you doing to that effect?
Hey Azzork-
Funny thing, I was just reading some of your posts and was impressed with your goal setting. It caused me to start thinking about mine.
I have joined a few meetup groups in our area this past week, and have already participated in one activity. I also have RSVPed to a few more.
I have looked into some activities that our local library offers and am attending one tomorrow.
I have really pushed myself to connect more with people I enjoy at work and have invited them to join me in activities I am interested in. That has been pretty successful.
One of my goals this week was to communicate with people more- give them a call or text to say hi, invite them to an activity, suggest a get together, or just thank them for something they have done or just are.
I'm really trying...I see the old habits have not helped me at all. I USED to be a fun person. I think I got lost somewhere along the way as I became just the wife and mom. Now that my kids are mostly grown, I feel like I dont really know who I am anymore. I understand now why my husband would ask me, "did I hold you back?" and why when I would ask, "what are we doing this weekend?" he would answer "what do YOU want to do?". I never could answer that. I really had no idea! Now I'm trying to find out.
Hey Azzork-
Funny thing, I was just reading some of your posts and was impressed with your goal setting. It caused me to start thinking about mine.
I have joined a few meetup groups in our area this past week, and have already participated in one activity. I also have RSVPed to a few more.
I have looked into some activities that our local library offers and am attending one tomorrow.
I have really pushed myself to connect more with people I enjoy at work and have invited them to join me in activities I am interested in. That has been pretty successful.
One of my goals this week was to communicate with people more- give them a call or text to say hi, invite them to an activity, suggest a get together, or just thank them for something they have done or just are.
I'm really trying...I see the old habits have not helped me at all. I USED to be a fun person. I think I got lost somewhere along the way as I became just the wife and mom. Now that my kids are mostly grown, I feel like I dont really know who I am anymore. I understand now why my husband would ask me, "did I hold you back?" and why when I would ask, "what are we doing this weekend?" he would answer "what do YOU want to do?". I never could answer that. I really had no idea! Now I'm trying to find out.
That sounds great! Ive found that making new friends has been my salvation through this ordeal. People that know me as "Azzork" and dont know or dont really care about all of this stuff. That way, I can get a few hours where Im having a good time, enjoying life, and not thinking about all of this crap that just drags me down.
The less time you spend thinking about your situation, the less effect it will have on you, and......the less time you will spend thinking about your situation.
Things cascade. They snowball. They BUILD. Do one thing, meet one person, who introduces you to three more. Then one of those people introduces you to three more. And so on. And now, you have a whole new network of friends!
But YOU have to take the first step. And it sounds like you are.
Thank you for the supportive words. I like the bit about people knowing you as you, and not as part of the past "stuff". I'm trying. I should probably set some goals down, as you did.
H called me last night while I was out, so I returned the call.He just called for no reason. He was surprised that I wasn't at home (I had gone to a lecture at the library!). I tried to stay detached a bit, but still answer some of his questions. It was a little easier to do, this time, probably because I was tired and really wanted to sleep. I was pleasant, though, and the first to hang up.
A few goals for myself are:
a)Paint or draw for at least 15 minutes a day, no matter what.
b) Have popular paintings scanned and turned into prints and cards within 2 weeks.
c) Go to at least one meetup activity a week.
d)Call or text a friend or someone I would like to become friends with each day.
e)Go outside for any reason at least once a day (yardwork, hike, walk, etc. even if it is raining or snowing.
f)Work out every day.
g)Eat 3 meals a day
h)Take my vitamins
i)Act "as if".
That last one is the hardest right now, because I really want to see his calling and being friendly as good signs that this surreal situation will magically disappear, but then I remember that at my daughter's birthday lunch and at home that night that he was almost flirty, I got my hopes up, and then 2 days later he announced he was moving out.
So, I need to push "as if" a little harder.
Yep, that 'as-if' is hard. You know you cant act on everything he does that 'might' mean he is thinking of returning, but it is too hard to try and ignore it.
People always wonder how long they have to pull away? When will they know it is Ok to jump back in. I think 2 things have to happen. First, he has to be ready. And you cannot just think he is ready, he has to come right out and say he is really, really ready to work on the M. Not just he thinks maybe he will. The second is you have to be ready. There is no way you are going to come out of this the same person as when you went in. Don't rush this process too much, even though it is so hard. Finish cookin', then look back at your M.
So far your goals look fantastic. Focus on them like an obsession and this will move along quicker then you think.
I've now finished DR as well as DB and ... DR was much more helpful to me at this point, because of all of the explanations and examples. I also had been beating myself up every time I fell off of the detachment wagon, DR helped me to understand that making mistakes in this journey is normal: one just has to realize the mistake was made and get back on track.
I know I'm supposed to be working on me and setting goals, but I keep getting hopeful after friendly, positive interactions and then I want more. Its like being on a low carb diet and seeing great results; then you treat yourself to a small piece of cake at a party and remember how good it is. Then you REALLY want more, and thus begins the willpower fight.
In my absence from here I set some smaller, short term goals:
a) I want him to make eye contact with me and hold it(he hasn't really looked at me when we've talked in a long time)--he has been doing this lately
b)I want to see him smile at me when we talk (same as above)-- I have gotten this lately, as well.
c)I want a compliment (he hadn't mentioned anything positive about the way I looked in years and I had started fishing for them!)-- He told me the other night after we had gone to a function for mutual friends(separately), "I don't know how many people told you you looked good tonight, but you look really good". That was nice.
With that, though came those feelings of hope, then me calling (once) and texting(once) when not REALLY necessary, thinking I'd blown it, then over thinking, then some negative thoughts. Was he just being nice because he's a nice guy? He is a very charming guy to his clients and friends...am I just being friend-zoned and getting excited because being treated like he treats everyone else is so much better than how he WAS treating me? He did tell me he would always be my friend. Ugh.
I still need a lot of work on detaching. I still care too much about what he thinks, what he does, what his life is like right now, who he talks to. When will I see him again. But I am working on staying busy, changing my H centered life, and doing what I want to do. It just gets to me sometimes.
Somehow, Mona, I missed reading your post.
It helped to read that bit about him having to be really, really ready to work on the marriage. Because I haven't really gotten detached, I do tend to want to obsess on what he might be doing or thinking. He is not at the point where he is ready to talk relationship yet. I have to remind myself that he's only been gone about 2 weeks! Patience seems to be hard for me here in this aspect of my life, whereas I'm known for my patience at work.
I do need to focus on my goals like an obsession. I think I'll try to get into that mind set.
My goals for today, as I'm feeling a little under the weather (the fun part about working with lots of kids)...
a) make it through the work day (lol)
b) call friend I haven't spoken to for awhile
d) don't call or text H; and if he calls, validate, listen,smile as I talk,don't overshare, be the first to hang up.
e) 40 minutes on treadmill
f) paint
g) design business card
h) eat a good meal
What I am grateful for today:
a)friends who care enough to call or text to check on me
b)daughters who are becoming good, responsible adult people but still make time to see both of us and not pick sides.
c)an H who is trying to make this situation as easy on me as he can while he figures out his issues.
I owe it to all of these people and myself to GAL and work on myself and my own issues.
H came to the house to get his mail yesterday. He called three times to make sure I would be home.
To make sure I eat well, I've been making a protein each week and then making meals off of it. So I had made pulled pork on Sunday and was using it in a tortilla with taco stuff (lettuce, cilantro, avocado, salsa...) last night. I told him on the phone that he could take some with him if he wanted because he paid for the pork and I had more than enough and would have to freeze the rest anyway. He told me he would like that.
So, when he showed up and saw me preparing my dinner, I asked if he wanted any (no reason to be impolite). He looked surprised and said he thought he would watch a little football. NeIther of his teams were playing and he has a tv at his apartment, though. He took his dinner downstairs and I asked if he minded if I watched with him (I know - pursuer behavior). He said that would be fine. We watched until we were done eating, talked briefly about little things, he played with the dog a bit, then said he was going home. All very pleasant and upbeat, even though he told me how tired he was. I live a half hour from town so his drive is out of the way and I could have brought him the mail to his office after my work.
So, what is my take away? I'm confused. Is he checking up on me? Lonely? I know as a pursuer my 180 should have been to not go with him to watch the game. But he also seemed to need my presence. And with his complaint of not feeling loved in the past, (I did often leave him alone watching tv to do my own thing) I felt that I was showing him love without invading his space.
But I also gave him power over me by leaving the decision of whether I watched with him up to him.
Goals for today:
a)Do only what is on my list of things to do
b)DO NOT CALL OR TEXT H! I've spoken to him every day since Friday. I need to be too busy to do that (or at least pretend to be). More mystery.
c)Stop telling him all about what I have going on, even when he asks. That's a 180 right there. I need to learn how to be politely vague. More mystery...again.
Goals for the rest of this week:
a)GAL with detaching full force
b)Stay busy
c)Get over this cold
d)MORE MYSTERY!!!
But he also seemed to need my presence.
I dont really understand this. What do you mean?
Do you think it's your job to see to his needs, now?
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
But he also seemed to need my presence.
I dont really understand this. What do you mean?
Do you think it's your job to see to his needs, now?
I guess I'm saying I'm used to being there for him when he is troubled, and he seemed to need someone yesterday. If it was just loneliness then I'm glad he chose to come to me, even though I really just did what I was planning on doing for the evening anyway. I didn't make a big deal out of him being there, but did act "as if". I tried to follow Sandi's rules while he was there.
I waffle on the football part because I have been so dependent on him for my companionship that I identify as a pursuer, but I also fear him taking my detachment as proof of not loving him...the assumption and misunderstanding that drove a wedge between us in the first place.
As it happened, he only stayed long enough to eat and make small talk. Still not sure what he was after, but I've been known to be clueless.
I'm taking the day off of work (stupid cold/cough) and have time to think. I've been actually running myself ragged trying to GAL, having some adventures along the way, but making myself too tired to fight off an illness (was finally able to sleep longer most nights after the depression lightened up a bit, then the coughing started). I'm one of those people that, normally, doesn't often get sick.
So, a few things that are bugging me. I am getting more comfortable, and happier, with myself and GAL. Still want him and miss him, but I'm learning from these boards and my reading that it has been a short time since BD and I'm probably going to have a long road ahead of me when it comes to his side of this. Especially since he's in his own place. But
a)his behavior Monday confused me.
b)I felt the need to start looking for a C and my first foray into this scared me. I just wanted to talk to someone and then be prepared with a name in case he agrees to couples counseling.
I went to a counseling session with a therapist on Tuesday. I had gotten her name from another psychologist whose lectures I've always enjoyed (he used to be a marriage and family therapist but is now involved in a project). After thinking on that session for a while, I won't be going back.
I don't need someone to tell me how unfair my H is being, how controlling H is, or how badly H has behaved. These are all things I've already realized and dealt with in one way or another (basically beat him over the head with). So H and I both know all about how badly HE behaved.
I was discussing how I've been realizing the part I have played in our relationship issues and she kept arguing with me. I found myself almost defending him, not a position I want to take either, since its more about me UNDERSTANDING how my actions and responses to his actions furthered our problems; not CONDONING them.
She had told me when I had spoken to her on the phone and said I wanted to be seen individually and then as a couple when he was ready to go that she could not do that. That she would forge a relationship with me and it wouldn't be fair to him to be brought in later.
Isn't she supposed to be objective and unbiased? I don't want an ally against him; just someone to help us work better to save our marriage if possible.
How do I find someone other than the boards here to help? I have insurance that will pay towards this, but I don't think I can afford DB coaching right now.
I, once again, feel that I have screwed up on the detaching thing. I had to call H to come help at the house, as there was a problem with our water system. We worked on it together and had it taken care of by the afternoon. He hung out, ate, had good, light conversation, watched a little football and left. while he was here he brought up paying one of the mortgages.
A little back ground: he makes most of the money and owns his own business. I make very little, but have good insurance. So basically, he gives me money to pay all of the bills because I have always been in charge of our finances. He has slowly been putting himself in charge of bills that pertain only to him or our vacation home since he moved to his own apartment.
After he left, I once again overthought it and ended up calling him to ask if he was doing this to make it easier to split up assets in case of divorce, because "I'm not there yet". Why did I say that?!! He explained he just didn't think it was fair for me to have to pay bills that have nothing to do with me. The vacation house has been an issue...totally another story that I'm ashamed of.
I then texted him to apologize for mistaking his kindness for something else.
I have no reason to see or communicate with him this week. My goal is to NOT CALL OR TEXT. So far, Ive been really bad at achieving this. And much of the time, I screw it up.
When you feel the urge to call or text him, could you reach to something else instead that is closer to you. I have a small jar of sweets at home and work, so when I want to text or ring my H, instead I go for the sweet. I know not healthy but it helps me.
That's actually a good idea...replacing one desirable "action" with another. Maybe, since I'm trying to be more outgoing, I should replace it with calling or texting a friend, or setting up a GAL activity. Hopefully including a stiff shot of something. Or maybe not, lol!
Hi citizen,
Just read your thread and I'm so sorry you are here. IVe been DBing for 4 months and I feel like I am still such a newbie that I can only offer support. Hang in there! I'm surprised by how much contact you the two of you have with eachother.... Could be a good thing or could make it very hard detach- either way- you've got this!
Hey, Feyth!
I usually am a lurker and feel that I can't help others on these boards, but I have read your posts and feel for your situation.
I'm sorry that you have to be here, as well. Its a tough road we get to travel, right?
I'm not sure if all of our contact is good or not either. It seems just when I feel that I can be relatively ok not contacting him, he finds a reason to contact me. 25 years together and two grown (sort of) daughters does create quite a habit. He is, at heart, a nice guy with a grand sense of responsibility. But from what I'm learning, maybe in an MLC.
Regardless, I still have the same "in love with him feelings that I can't turn off" that you speak of having for your H. I can't even picture myself with someone else. It really is awful. I wish he was an awful person so I could hate him.
If your H hasn't filed D papers or made separation official, maybe he isn't really sure what he wants either? Just maybe wants SOMETHING to change? Maybe he WANTED to gauge your response to the seeing other people question...why would he feel the need to inform you otherwise? I guess we really can't believe everything they say or do during this ordeal. My H has already contradicted actions with words, and words with actions.
We will need to try to be creative, consistent and patient DBers.
When you feel the urge to call or text him, could you reach to something else instead that is closer to you. I have a small jar of sweets at home and work, so when I want to text or ring my H, instead I go for the sweet. I know not healthy but it helps me.
Agree. Anytime you want to do something, wait a half hour. At least. Then think what if I posted it to DB.....what would people tell me?
Then, if you still think it's a good idea, go ahead.
Often times, it's the quick actions based on emotions that you will wish you could take back.
Learn from it and move forward!
Azzork,
You always give such on point advice. I have tried just busying myself and waiting, but then the emotion bubbles up and I think, "just a quick little text". Maybe I just needed to add the "what would the response be from DB board" part.
I'm still getting way too excited after good contact and way too low after no contact. I decided last night to try no contact of any kind for this week. If he initiates it, I will not answer the phone or be on my way out. If it is through text, one word or short answer if needed. I think I can do this.
Journaling and update. After my slight meltdown and phone call about bills on Saturday, I had resolved to not call. Sunday I had a lovely "Meetup" walk with an awesome group of ladies with whom I have already RSVPed for another walk. Got some yardwork done.
Then came my first test since I had resolved to try to not talk much to H unless necessary, even if he initiated. He called on Sunday as he was out shopping. He has always made fun of me for being a health nut, but here he was asking me about what supplements to take and what that herbal tea I used for certain complaints was! He was looking to buy them for himself even though it seemed to irritate him when I brought it up before. I tried several times to end the conversation first, politely and cheerfully (hard to do), but finally was successful. Sort of stuck to my plan?
Monday he called me after work. I heard my cell phone ring, but let it go (not a good signal at home out in the boonies).Then he tried the land line. I let it ring several times, but lost my resolve and picked up. He asked if I was up in my studio painting because it took me awhile to get to the phone, so I let him think that(busy, right?). He,at first, seemed to have no reason to call. Then he started to talk about the death of someone he used to race boats with (a hobby) who had died during warmups and how much it disturbed him...it could have been him. I agreed and just let him talk.
I'm glad I did. He seemed to need to. We talked about our kids (he always asks if I've heard from them as I talk to them everyday or two)and I asked after his parents as he mentioned a trip they were going to take. Then I ended the conversation.
Those were both days off for him. No calls from him and no contact Tues or Weds. I'm going to be busy tonight and tomorrow I will be stopping at his office to drop off a painting and meet up with one of the ladies who works for him (we are all friends) because she wanted to go to a certain function with me.
Saturday is Halloween and I was invited by our friends to come to the annual party. I'm looking forward to it and have no idea if he's going as of right now.
I'm feeling better about my 180s and learning to do WHAT I WANT.
I am getting better and making myself happy and feeling more comfortable with it, not feeling so guilty about being "selfish".
I am feeling more comfortable making plans with other people- I used to feel that I was being bothersome, but now I know people are actually happy to hear from me and say yes to plans!
So, I guess today, my thing to feel grateful for (and this will sound a bit crazy), is this separation. As painful as it is (and it REALLY does lay me low at strange times), it has been good for me to try to find myself again. I realize that when he was constantly asking, "are you happy?", I was answering with a lie. I was lying to both of us. And that part of our marriage not working was very much my fault.
So, an update and a question.
I have been to a few functions that H has also gone to, and H has been calling on non-work days to check on me. I felt that I was seeing results from my lack of pursuit (him approaching, calling, texting me). Then my daughter told me that he had stated that I seemed much happier without him. That I was better off without him. This NOT what I wanted to hear!
I was worried that this approach might backfire since he had stated that he felt that I didn't love him, even though I thought I was showing him in many ways.
Now what?
Hi Ciluzen, don't panic about that feedback and stay the course. Be light and friendly if H gets in touch and don't prolong the contact. For sure, him worrying that you may be happier without him is no bad thing. Focus on you and the things you are enjoying in your life right now....x
Hi ciluzen. I agree with sotto above about no panicking. You must be doing really well- enough for him to take notice! Thats a win!
Thank you Sotto and Feyth. I really was in a panic. I actually ended up calling him and telling him I missed him. Just missed hearing him crack jokes and tell stories. He stayed on the phone and just talked about...nothing. Just told stories to me. Not good DBing or detaching on my part, but the party the night before left me almost feeling...comforted? And then he called randomly the next morning. Then that evening my daughter told me of her conversation with him...when he said I seemed happy without him (and she told him he was stupid).
At the Halloween party we attended (separately) I had a good time and did not really interact with him other than to return smiles he gave from across the way. But he walked me to my car and asked me to text him when I got home so that he would know I arrived safely. I did and told him the same. He did.
We both have been attending our mutual friends' child's hs soccer playoff games (again,separately), and are friendly. He walks me to my car and then calls me and talks til he gets home (I live quite a bit further).
It is very hard to detach. I have been quickly creating a friend base that does not know him, but I don't want to abandon our mutual friends...or their kids. I've always been like their "aunty". I enjoy that.
But I can see how not detaching makes it harder to be without him, creates expectations and fragile hope out of his nice guy actions, and ultimately leads me back to major down days. I really am trying.
So, an update.
I'm still working on detaching (tough time). I had a book recommended to me about co-dependency and realized even more how much H and I were BOTH codependent. It is helping a little with trying to break the cycle.At least, from my end. I'm one of those people that has to understand an issue from all sides and inside and out to feel I have a handle on it.
I'm learning that as uncomfortable and downright painful his moving out has been, it is a gift. I am being forced to face my dependency issues and analyze (and acknowledge) my personal shortcomings.
H has poured himself into his work.That is helping him to somewhat detach from me. He also has his family to talk to on the phone and his employees/friends. I have learned that although I have always been friendly with them and invited to social things with them, they are not really my friends.
I have sat near him with our friends (once again, mostly his friends/ my social group) at the previously mentioned soccer games. Today, win or lose, will be our last one (unless I decide to drive 5 hours away to the semi finals, which I wont). Ski season will also be starting soon. Unless there are some home repairs needed, H has no reason really to visit me and he will have some fun weekend activities. Well, unless he details his skis here, which he probably will, but in our shop. So I don't think he will miss me.
I have no choice but to try to throw myself into my own work (I'm trying to start a business with my art)and get busy with meetup activities.
I'm having a hard time with the holidays, though. Its always been us for TDay and Christmas, since we moved away from our families to be here. My married daughter has invited me and other daughter to her sister in law's husband's parents for TDay, but my younger daughter can't go 2 hours away and be able to work at 5. I've suggested an early dinner at my house and even told H he is welcome to come, but nothing is set in stone. I'm feeling a bit fractured...my whole family is fractured.
I'm thinking of asking H how long his lease is for, and setting some goals on independence based on that. Either trying to get a new job (on top of the only 30 hour one I love) or, if my business makes any money, just dealing with that. I feel that him writing me a check, although nice, is not going to help me grow. Just my thoughts for today.
Ok. H came to the house after the game to pick up his mail. In prepping to get serious about detaching, I gave him all of the bills having to do with the vacation home. This prompted a discussion of the R, which nether of us was prepared for. Rehashing the same old stuff...me stating my case for working on the marriage, him saying he didn't know what he was doing, etc.I could not remain cheerful or upbeat, but at least I didn't bawl or yell. I learned his lease is for a year.
I'm going to go to TDay with my married daughter. I will leave H and other daughter to fend for themselves. Maybe offer younger daughter brunch or breakfast. As for Christmas...we'll see.Starting LRT.
Every time I try to detach emotionally or try limiting contact with H, something bizarre happens!
Our whole area was hit with hurricane force winds Tuesday that knocked out power to 90% of the people here and caused huge amounts of damage everywhere. To make matters worse, we had temps in the teens and low twenties. Everyone I knew was without power. H and daughters and I were having to be in contact to update on house, apartments, and office situations. I had no power or phone and had to drive around to get cell signal, ice, water, charge phone, etc. H hung out at his office and invited me in as well...he had power there, but not his apartment.
On Friday I went up to our vacation home because it had power. H opted out because he briefly got power, but is now without again.I offered up staying up there and staying out of his hair, but he declined. We talked a lot about the crisis, how kids and friends were faring, what we were doing to pass the time and other things.
I got too comfortable again ended up mentioning R. He closed right up...stopped being his affable charming self and started with the single word, vague answers and replies, so I dropped it. Its interesting how quick that happens. He said he would let me know about office and apartment situations. I have power again at "our" home. I will remember not to pursue again.
Tday I will spend at daughter's in-laws as planned. Daughters, son-in-law and I have agreed on Sunday dinner as a family dinner so that we can all see each other. Invitation offered to H verbally, but he said nothing. Whatever. I'm done pushing. Every time I think I'm safe to bring up R,(I now that's against DB advice)he closes up. I'm learning I know nothing about this man after 26 years and that DB might work if I just have the patience and strength to try.
I don't feel that I am doing well.
I started to see a therapist and she has listened to my story and given me some advice on controlling my emotions, but I am struggling. I can't stop thinking about H.
It is so normal when we talk...like before. And then he's gone again. He tells me he'll call and I find myself waiting.
The last time we met (he came to get ski equipment), I somehow brought up us. He told me the only thing that has kept him from filing for D is that he doesn't want to pay a lawyer anything and he's too lazy and a procrastinator. I don't even remember what I said in response. But at some point I said "fine. I'll just sit here doing what I'm doing and waiting for my next check (from him)" He kept walking out the door to put stuff in the car and kept staring at me. Not sure what his look was. Sadness? Confusion?
He then talked to me Sunday and Monday like nothing had happened. He told me we'd talk again before he left (he is taking his entire staff on a business trip to Vegas). I've heard nothing from him since Monday.
My therapist brought up Discerment therapy. Anyone have experience with that?
Hello ciluzen, I am new on here today (for the second time though, I was here 9 years ago) and have just read about your situation. I'm so sorry about what you're going through and can understand your pain about the holidays. I'm in UK so didn't have Thanksgiving to go through but am in a total mess Christmas too. Still don't know what I'm doing for the day and my children are 7 and 11. You sound like you are doing very well at GAL and detaching to me. I know it is incredibly hard not to text someone you are used to being able to text any time you like, about anything. I am struggling with that too. My WAH does what yours does too. Acts perfectly OK and chatty unless I bring up R. Then he clams up and/or gets angry. I find all of this exhausting. I'm sorry I'm not much help, and haven't heard of discerment therapy but saw your "is anyone out there?" and couldn't not reply. I know that seeing a reply on your post can be a lifeline sometimes.
I have no clue. what discernment therapy is? I also wanted to offer encouragement. you are not alone
Isn't discernment therapy to help you decide if you want to stay married or divorce?
Hello Ciluzen,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
The good news is that you are recognizing what is working and what isn't. Detaching is working and talking about the relationship isn't. GAL is working. Is H keeping you in the friend zone while cake eating?
It is easy to be conflicted when you have so many emotions and thoughts going through your head!
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thank you inpain, tfish and Pho for your replies. It does help to just know that others are listening. I am trying to escape the victim mentality, but I am alone too much, and in winter here, things seem to shut down.
My kids are out of the house so the loneliness really gets to me. I have a few supportive new friends, but trying to GAL when you are depressed, as you probably know, can drain your energy.
I have now researched discernment therapy and found that it is a 1-5 session process in which a therapist meets with both spouses for about 30 minutes together to hear their story, then separately for about 30 minutes each to touch on their POV, then together again for 30 min to go over what their take-away from the private talk was. This is all in one session. They then decide if they want to meet for more sessions, go to actual couples therapy and work on marriage, or move forward with divorce. My sources stress that it is specifically for couples where one is trying to save their marriage (leaning in) and one is very much leaning out (may have already started divorce proceedings).
But they also say it is NOT something for a couple where one partner has already made up their mind to leave. That's what sent me into depression. They determine this beforehand with separate phone calls to each spouse. My husband told me last week after I foolishly brought up R that his laziness and loathing of lawyers is what has kept him from divorcing me.He still tells me he loves and cares about me, but I don't know what that actually means anymore.
Hi ciluzen,
Hmm discernment therapy seems very anti- DB right now. I can understand, as I just started working with a new IC who kind of gets the foundation of DB- brief solutions based therapy, but she's all for talking it out with h. Doesn't feel like the right action right now.
I don't have much advise to give, just letting you know that I'm out here listening too and rooting for you to succeed in your journey,and I get how totally hard this is ---- and long! I'm close to 6 months with no visible progress with the r. Thank god for the supportive people on this forum to keep us going
I think discernment therapy would be very anti-DB, especially if there was an active affair or even "affair fog". After BD I found a "marriage friendly" therapist but I even doubt that he's been all that helpful. Except that he gives H an outlet to rant and rage and feel validated.
Hmmm, I agree with everyone else, this discernment therapy doesn't sound like something I would want to try to talk H into doing. It seems pushy unless H has approached you saying he wants to reconcile. If your H is anything like mine he wouldn't agree to it anyway. The only time I managed to get mine to go to C was when I discovered his 2nd time of EA with same woman! He was so desperate not to lose me that he was willing to do anything.
Your H seems to be sending mixed messages if he is still saying he loves you and cares for you. I take it that he loves you in the "but not in love with you" way that our WAS all say.
Nope, lol. My H has DEFINITELY not approached me about reconciling. And he feels the same way about therapists as lawyers, I think. I did tell him I was seeing a therapist and his first reaction was, "what did she say about me?" I had to explain that it wasn't about him...it was for me. So no, I don't see that anytime in the future.
Yes, I do understand the ILYBINILWY thing, in fact he used those exact words. Sometimes I think he's just more worried that I'll do something rash since I've refused to leave our house.
He does seem to be in an emotional affair with a woman in his office, even though he doesn't realize it and I don't think she does either. He spent Thanksgiving with her family and a few of what I used to believe were our mutual friends. I had TG dinner with my daughter and her in-laws. He chose friends over family.
Right now, he is in Las Vegas with all of his staff, including her, from Thursday until tomorrow for a seminar. He "wanted to tell me so I didn't find out from others and get upset".
I haven't spoken to him at all since Monday. It has been difficult, but I'm really trying to stick to my guns and not call for any reason. I have screwed up so much on detaching and seen what it does. I've also been literally STUDYING validation. I originally thought of it more as being a cheerleader and complimenting. Now I know better...it is just letting them know you are listening, considering, and acknowledging that their thoughts and feelings are valid...even if you don't agree. Psychology Today has a good series of articles on the six types of validation. It may come in handy
Just journaling. My GAL and my waves of depression this week led me to try to find a church...I needed a sense of community? The church we used to go to was...wait for it... EA/employee/friendish of mines and was small. I had stopped going except for holidays because of my feelings around her, but H sometimes went without me.
Anyway, I really like this new church. Good sermon, good service, and a better fit for me. And I know NOBODY.
I made myself go Christmas shopping after and am almost done. I bought myself some soft, cute pajamas because I've been wearing H's big long sleeved t-shirts to bed because it reminded me of him and nothing I had fit anymore (I've been on the "MLC" diet,apparently, and have lost 40 lbs since this stuff started in July). I put them on when I got home cuz...why not?
H comes back to town with his office staff today. Right now I am feeling good about not contacting him. I've studied HARD this week about detachment, emotional reaction, validation, emotional regulation, smothering, pursuing, focus, ways to ease anxiety, mindfulness, and how I can GAL without burning out and curling into a ball. Trying to stay strong!
Plus, my first two series of prints of my art are ready to sell and my business cards came! I feel ready to rock n roll on this! Scared to death, but it will be on Etsy first so not too scary. As if!
Oooh! Well done for getting your art printed and putting it on Etsy! I used to sell handmade cards on Etsy. I still make them (well, I did until H left and made me so depressed that I haven't the heart to) but no longer sell them.
Well done too for not contacting H. I know it is so hard to manage it. My heart leaps whenever my phone has a message. Then I feel a huge disappointment if it is someone other than H.
I bought myself some cute pajamas too! I'm wrapping them up for myself for Christmas though. My kids still believe in Santa so I thought I'd better have one present to open, because I'm quite sure I'll be getting nothing from H.
You're doing a great job at staying strong!
Thank you, inpain! I'm not feeling too strong right now. I have mail and bills for H and have not talked about Christmas with him yet, but I know he is back from his trip. I'm trying hard to not call. I keep getting waves of sadness and the urge to call people to talk, but everyone is busy with holiday stuff right now.
I have been doing research to prepare myself for our inevitable next talk-driving it into my head to not talk about R and just validate and be cheerful. I did make an appointment with a massage therapist (not getting hugs or any physical touch has been VERY hard so I thought it might help).
That's great that you make handmade cards. I hope you can get back to that soon. I understand, though, not having the heart. I haven't been able to paint much lately, either.
Ok. I caved. I called to tell H about his mail (he just said ok) and then he asked if I'd heard from our daughters so I mentioned that one could be here til 3 or 4 on Christmas and the other and her husband could come after 2. I told him he was welcome to show up and I think he grunted.
Then he told me to ask him about his trip so I just listened and tried to validate when he shared feelings or thoughts. He brought up memories of us in Vegas and also of a movie we saw years ago. At least he's got good memories in there somewhere!
I told him about the church I visited and he seemed intrigued, but didn't say much. Kind of a pleasant but nothing conversation. I let him go. Not feeling like a failure for caving, but just kind of...meh.
Looking forward to my massage tomorrow and I see my IC the next day. Not quite GAL, but stuff to do.
I hope you're out having a wonderful massage right now! I used to get them pretty regularly several years ago...oh...I miss them so much.
I'm glad I finally found your thread. I'm about halfway through reading up on it. I need to take a break, but I plan to finish when I come back.
You're so lucky in one regard. Your H still seems to have some feelings for you. My problems in my M were the same as yours. I just kind of withdrew. I left him on his own a lot. He never acted like it bothered him, so I had no idea that it did. I'm frustrated with my H because words are such useful things. Why wait until all feelings are gone before saying anything?
I don't know. I'm sad to be in this situation, sad that you are, too. But hey! I am happy to get to know you a bit better. I'm an Army brat, born in Tacoma. We lived there when I was a kid for a while, too. I started K in WA. I've always wanted to go back. One day....
Had a wonderful massage, Ancaire. Thank you. And the therapist was cute. In fact, the three that I saw were all good looking young guys. Mostly women clients. Whoever is in charge of hiring there is smart!
So, I don't know what to think right now. Maybe its just more of the same, or not.
After my massage the other day, I called to tell H that I had sent his parents a floral centerpiece as I do every year. He interrupted and seemed so happy, relieved, etc because he knew they loved those and was going to ask me who I got them from. I have always done all of the Christmas shopping except for my gift from him; every other gift was from the both of us. Then I told him that I had only signed my name and that it was a difficult decision and not very me. That I had only signed my name on all of the gifts I gave this year. He paused and said "thank you for the heads up so that I can act accordingly". Then he asked if I was ok. Well, that opened up the emotional floodgate.
After telling him no, that I had to miss work, and him asking why, I told him the truth. I was having a very hard time.
A bit of ILYBINILWY history.He had told me before that he had felt that I hadn't loved/liked him in years and so he had detached (he didn't use that word, but that's what he did) and started to make himself happy (GAL) regardless of my feelings and actions. And then he slowly fell out of love with me (that's when my bad behavior came out...jealousy, suspicion, crying, etc.).
After telling him I was having a hard time, I then went on to apologize. "I'm so sorry that I somehow made you feel all those years ago the way I'm feeling now, because this pain is horrible, excruciating, and unbearable when the person you love stops loving you. I don't know how you got up every day for all those years. I'm so sorry I made you feel like this." I could hear him trying to say something and trying to control his emotions, so I cut him off and told him he didn't need to say anything, that I just wanted him to know that I understood how much it hurt, that I did not mean to hurt him. So I ended the call.
I have artwork that hangs in his office and have gotten a lot of sales and commissions through that visibility. I have been creating prints of my work to sell on etsy and at his office and so I was going to deliver them today. He called as I was driving to make sure I was coming and seemed excited; told me he had told everyone that the prints were ready.
He was genuinely happy I was there when I came in, tried to help me display them, discussed details, even made me eat some cheesecake someone brought in. He's been nice enough when I've come in, but he was almost fawning over me today. Walked me out to my car and stood as it was snowing discussing a Christmas gift for son in law. It just felt different than it has. I know better than to get my hopes up, so as no further calls re necessary, I don't think I will. I'll just see what happens.
Ciluzen, your last post had me welling up with tears for you. Tears at what you said to H about how sorry you are for causing him the same pain you unintentionally caused him in the past and also tears for how your H acted when you went to his office. I think you are right to keep your hopes in check but agree it seems like a baby step in the right direction. I think I need to say something similar to my H about the unintentional pain I've caused him in the past. Thank you for posting your inspirational speech.
WTF?! And by that I mean...WTF? My H's behavior sometimes...I try try try to understand his POV,but mind reading is not my strong suit and ugh!
Ok, lemme splain. I used to love skiing with my H and later, my kiddos. I wasn't ever great at it, but I could ski almost anything (slow), jump, go through the trees and have a good time. As my kids got older and better, my husband got much better. I started to back off a bit as their abilities eclipsed mine and I felt I held everyone back and/or frustrated them. We had friends that started skiing with us and the "annual ski trip" started happening plus weekends were a great time when my kids were in HS for large groups to hang out at the hill all weekend. More and more often, I stayed home. That's when H and EA woman got closer. I then really backed off because I felt I couldn't compete. I even said I'd retired from skiing...never really enjoyed it. Boooo me.
Now that I am on my own and GAL, I have decided to revisit skiing...to see if I like it for what it is, not for who I was with. Or even if I actually like it. I told H this when he came to pick up his ski stuff a few weeks ago so he set up a pair of skis with my boots(my skis were lent to someone)for me. When I saw him a few days ago I mentioned that I was going to go up because there was a microbrew tasting up there, but that my friend had backed out so maybe I'd just ski by myself. He didn't seem to believe me. Just said, "yeah. sometimes its hard to get other people to go." He goes up alone most of the time now and had pleaded with me to go a few times in the past (I did) to just be in the lodge and read.
Today a new friend from work (who has never met him) and I went up to the mountain for the latter part of the day. As we were getting our stuff out of the car he walked up. He stood there awkwardly smiling at me.I made small talk and tried to be pleasant, but he was...wierd...and awkward. I introduced him to my friend and he hardly acknowledged her, just said "oh, she's boarding." Then he mentioned that he saw us as we were arriving and that he was going the other way.I realized that he was leaving and told him to have a great rest of the day. H kept standing there and bringing stuff up about the microbrews, which one's I might like, the food, the snow, etc.My friend finally said, "I'm going to take awhile. You can head up to the ticket booth and I'll meet you there." I literally told H to have a good rest of the day (again) and walked away. When my friend met up with me she told me he had passed us on the way up and waved frantically (i was oblivious) so he had to turn around and drive 1/2 mile back to the parking area. She then talked about how awkward he was acting.
My daughter called when I got home to tell me that she had heard from H and that he said I didn't seem happy to see him at all. I was, but what am I supposed to do? I don't even know how I'm supposed to act around my own H anymore. I wanted to hug him...but that seems to counter the DB method. The best I could do at the time was walk away. But I seem to have hurt him?
I have very little insight to offer regarding the actions of a WAS. I do have tons of sympathy to offer, though. I've thought many times that while my H seems to be in love with the idea of moving on himself, he is far less open to the idea of me doing the same. I'm convinced my H is going through a MLC, just based on how thoroughly his personality has changed. Judging by your H's age, it's possible he's going through something similar.
On a positive note, his actions indicate he's not quite a ready to say goodbye permanently as his words would leave you to believe. Keep DBing to the best of your ability. There is hope in your situation, I think. It may not happen overnight, but there is hope.
This is a tough, tough ride we signed up for when we decided to save our M. I plan to stand for my M at this point in time. H will get the D he so desperately wants, and we'll take it from there. I have no desire to marry anyone else, so I'm in it for the long haul. He's in some kind of fog where he's convinced himself that everyone will be just fine - even though it's clear at the moment that everyone is far, far from fine.
I don't understand it at all. I only know I can work on me. That is where I encourage you to keep your focus. On you. Do the best you can. This isn't easy, but when it works out...it make everything worth it.
Hang in there!
ciluzen, perhaps you could treat your H like an acquaintance that you're will like to know better but you're still not quite sure of?
Civil but friendly, but not too friendly. I am trying very very hard to treat my X like this but my face just automatically switches to a RBF when I see him.
Phew! That's a tough one Ciluzen! I think you behaved in the right way for DBing but it always seems wrong doesn't it?! It does say in the book that these things will feel like the total opposite of what we actually want to do.
I see good signs in the fact that your H actually turned round and drove 1/2 a mile back to be able to interact with you. I think if he was truly done he'd have seen your car pass and thought, "Thank goodness I left before she turned up!" or something similar.
As far as what he said to your D I think that is what all this DBing is supposed to make them feel like, so they know what they're missing and draw them closer step by step. I really wish I could give some kind of advice and say you definitely did the right thing but like you I am totally struggling with this whole DBing thing. Everything I want to do is apparently the wrong thing to do and everything I'm supposed to do to stop D seems wrong to me.
I think you did good though and well done you for going skiing again. Did you enjoy it?
I see good signs in the fact that your H actually turned round and drove 1/2 a mile back to be able to interact with you. I think if he was truly done he'd have seen your car pass and thought, "Thank goodness I left before she turned up!" or something similar.
Hey guys, just wanted to reply to this one sentence. I see this an awful lot from those early in their sitch. The 'good sign/bad sign' game.
It's hard for me to find a way to explain, please take my word for it (maybe someone else can explain it better):
There are no signs for what lies ahead.We've seen WAS's treat LBS nicely for many reasons that have nothing to do with R. Guilt. Cake-eating. Manipulation. Trying to avoid consequences for their behavior. Meeting their own emotional needs to be needed. I could go on, but you get the idea.
On top of that, WAS's behave so inconsistently that there is simply no one set of actions that would define them anyway. Which are you going to listen to? The one where he suddenly shows up and makes you your favorite meal? Or the one where he spews at you in front of the kids for wrecking Christmas because you told him you don't want him there for present opening if he's always texting on his phone with OW? (for example)
Finally, the last problem is that the very outlook is one of attachment. It shows a focus around WAS, what they do, whether they are coming back to the M.
Truly you need to
"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see".BTW, this wasn't easy for me. Like many LBH's I worked hard to DB every day with many a long post. I tried to do all of the 'right' things. I saw what I thought were consistent positive signs of things moving the 'right way'. 90 days in I started getting warmer and warmer emails, sharing emotions, asking about what I wanted, noticing my changes, asking if I wanted R, etc. I was like "kewl, I DB'd and we're going to work through this". Little did I know that she had been drinking to black out drunk almost every night, had a series of PA's, and had 20 different text message exchanges going on with different guys she had known from high school or around the neighborhood. I was just one of them, someone she pinged when she was desperate and lonely. When she called me and talked about killing herself I went over to the house and ran into none other than a drunk WW and an even drunker OM that had been sleeping in the bed during her phone call to me (and during many of the late night emails she'd been sending). I found the phone message exchanges the next morning after she was rushed to the hospital (she did attempt).
THIS WAS A BLESSING. THIS is what it took for me to really understand what I am posting about. The first 90 days I was truly in denial. I am SO grateful I was given this clarity. I could've been stringing myself along for a long time. Granted, I continued to DB and held hope for R for months after that, and I still continue to DB in the sense of trying to be the best man I can be and GAL, 180, etc. But I don't think about R anymore. Not saying "I wouldn't take her back" although it would definitely take a series of unlikely events for that to ever be a possibility, just that after you drop the rope at some point you stop asking your self the 'do I still want R' question because it is as useless as wondering what you'd wish for if you found a Genie Lamp.
So in conclusion, if you're longing for R and evaluating every wiggle of WAS and recalculating the % chance of R based on which direction they sneezed last, then getting angry and wondering if you'd still R or not, these are signs that you need to detach further. If not you'll be tying yourself to them so as they go through their crazy emotional rollercoaster you'll be flung along with them.
How to detach? That's another post, I get too long winded anyway. Just want you guys to at least see this point so you can stop your thoughts from getting too carried away when you start going down this road. You will for a while, but at least you can be aware of what's going on so you can appreciate your feelings and these thought patterns are a stage, not a reality.
Thank you everyone for your ideas and insights. I struggle with detaching, obviously. Just when I think I'm doing ok, this happens and I'm thrown for a loop.
I had a fabulous time skiing. I skied alone for the first time ever (my friend went to the terrain park as she is half my age). It was an almost zen-like experience. No one to follow or keep up with, I did what I wanted to do. I had to get myself out of some messes (the trail signs were snow covered and there was fresh powder everywhere as it was snowing)but I realized I'm better than I thought. I only had myself to rely on and that was a confidence booster.
I ended up calling H after talking to D. I know I probably shouldn't have, but I'm so tired of being misunderstood. I called to tell him it was nice to see him...that I was surprised. I told him my friend saw him waving as he passed us and wondered who he was but didn't tell me til after she met him. I told him I had a great time and will be doing it again soon. It does matter to me that he turned around and drove back: I felt he should know that given our history of him thinking I don't like him.
I want him to take that bratty little boy (his insecurity) that is yelling in his ear, "She doesn't like you! She doesn't care about you! No one is attracted to you! You are old, awkward, and embarassing! All you are good for is a paycheck!", and slap him in the mouth and send him to his room. These are all things he has expressed. He is in MLC.
As much as I try to follow DB and understand the concepts, what H expresses bothers me because it is a misunderstanding of our interactions that has gotten us here. I didn't realize what he is now expressing until this whole thing had blown up (BD). I can detach for me,a struggle, but as much as that can help me to eventually go my merry way, his feelings of being unliked will just be enforced by my withdrawal. Further evidence that H was right all along.
So, detaching as much as I can while still making sure that the little bratty boy inside of H is not supported in his lies...this is where I struggle.
Loving 2x4 coming, get ready.
For someone who's spouse walked away because they said they can't live with you anymore you sure seem to act like you have all the answers.
Clearly it's WAH's problem. He's insecure, misunderstands you, and is going through MLC...so DB or no DB you clearly need to reach out to control him so you can 'wake him up' and he can 'understand your POV', because if he could just see things the way you see them, obviously he'd come back, do what you want, and everything would be fine.
The fact is that I felt the EXACT same way as your H during my M. I also felt she was 100% mom and 0% wife, that my needs were completely dismissed, there was no collaboration and it seemed like there was almost a parent/child dynamic in that WAW thought she was right and if I disagreed with her I was wrong.
If H feels the way I did, your efforts to reach out and wake him up to your way of thinking will just come across as more of the same old ciluzen. And the fact that you are this dismissive of him will absolutely come across in what you do. In fact, it has for years, clearly.
Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Try a 180...suppose your WAH ISN'T wrong. Suppose he ISN'T going through MLC. Suppose he has VALID REASONS to feel the way he feels. What can you do to understand HIS point of view. Where can you realize that YOUR insecurities made you behave destructively. What can you do to change YOU?
I reread this entire thread before posting. You are doing a lot of hard work. Reading the books, setting out written goals, posting frequently. All good stuff. I'm sure this last post was a lot of venting. I know you're trying to deal with your own stuff to. Just please, please, please, STOP with the diagnosing WAS stuff. That is POISON you are drinking. Instead keep to your own stuff, stay humble, and take as much ownership as you can. Remember, if it's his fault your M is doomed, if it was you, you have a shot to change some of it.
Thank you, Zues, for the 2x4. I know I needed it. I will probably need a few more of your swings soon, given my history.
I WAS in full vent mode. I was having a good time driving up to the hill in the snow, something that scared me in the past which drove H crazy (all of my fears, actually), but that now out of necessity doesn't scare me at all. My mind was able to take a break from separation issues for once and I was excited/nervous about the day. Then, boom, he was there. It literally threw me. Like suddenly seeing dinosaurs walking out from behind the cars in the lot...completely unreal.
Seek not to be understood, but to understand. That is actually my job...I analyze behavior and create a plan to change it. It is harder to do to yourself, though. Biases and such. Too close to the subject. I am and have been trying to understand his POV. It is true that I don't like being misunderstood, but my 180's are in trying to address things he has brought up (always qualified by, "I'm not asking you to change.") How can I try to see his POV without trying to diagnose his specific WAS stuff?
These are my issues that he has brought up, things I base my 180's on:
My lack of confidence.
My fear of being alone yet acting like a loner
My dissatisfaction and unhappiness (he believes he made me miserable, I know I made me miserable)
My inability to ask him for things or for him to do things for me
My passive aggressive tendency to get mad at him when he was having fun with others and then ether withdraw from group or withdraw and then attack.
My relying on him for all of my social activities
My inability to appreciate the things he did for me.
I was doing a GAL activity, a 180, and trying to detach as well as trying to revisit who I am by trying skiing without him for the first time in my life. And then he was there. It upset my apple cart. I was able to get past it, but I didn't like hearing that I didn't seem happy to see him and called to correct it. I guess my wanting to correct his assumption is controlling behavior. But isn't it also communicating? Should I not communicate clearly for fear of it being controlling? When is it one or the other?
It is all so hard Ciluzen and again I know exactly where you're coming from with wanting to explain to H that he misunderstood your reactions at the ski slope.
You seem to be in the same situation as me, in that your H has moved out, which means we have to do the LRT. Do you have the DR book? I keep reading the LRT part every night to remind myself. I don't like any of what it tells me to do to be honest. No contact, etc, and I really can't see how it is supposed to save a M either, but I am trying to stick to it.
I'm sorry I am not much help.
Thanks for taking things well C. I know it stinks, and trust me, I'm sorry you're here.
I do have a question. On your 180 list you mention a lot of general things like 'not appreciating him' and 'being miserable'. How specifically did this play out in your M? Did you push him away sexually? Did you talk negatively about him to your friends or family? Just trying to understand how this manifested.
Also, what were the reasons you wrestled with this? If you were plucked back into your M today, do you think you'd be able to do it all differently, or would there still be underlying personal struggles?
I can tell you that even after 18 months and a lot of introspection, I'm still not sure I would be able to do much better plugged back into the M I was in. Which is another reason I have no desire to date. Until I feel like I could do it better I don't want to play again. How prepared would you be to reenter that R, and what would be the biggest challenge?
Keep posting about you, and keep digging really deep on these types of questions. There are things we avoid for most of our lives because we don't think we can overcome them. Something like this gives us a surge of power to change. Use it wisely and make great things happen for yourself!
I keep reading the LRT part every night to remind myself. I don't like any of what it tells me to do to be honest. No contact, etc, and I really can't see how it is supposed to save a M either, but I am trying to stick to it.
When you're in a hole, quit digging. Who just quoted that?
Sometimes I think the primary function of LRT is to stop the LBS from making it worse. There is simply no way a new LBS can avoid doing clingy and controlling things. The "They need to make the M work" emotions are so strong that it overshadow's their sensitivity to the WAS's "I am dying in this M" feelings, and the more the LBS preaches from their hymnal the more the WAS feels like the LBS just wants them for selfish reasons and doesn't understand or care about them.
The other reason the LBS has to step away is to let WAS experience the consequences of their choices WITHOUT being able to blame the LBS. As long as the LBS is emotionally intimate the WAS will continue to assume it's the LBS making them unhappy, and that more distance will solve the problem. Or that the reason their new life stinks is because of LBS. Only once LBS disengages, detaches, drops the rope, and lets WAS go on their own journey can they have the opportunity to realize that their misery is still there, only now they don't have a partner that loves them in the picture.
Notice, I said "opportunity". It's true that many WAS's will continue their narrative about the LBS being at fault during the M, and that happiness is just around the corner when they find the 'right' partner. This is clearly not true. But when someone has gone through enough pain they reach a point where they desperately pulling levers in their life hoping something will stop the bleeding.
It's sad (and hurtful, and infuriating) to witness, but ultimately the best thing to do is be nowhere near that trainwreck.
Instead own your half, break the co-dependant cycle, and become the person only a fool would leave. WAS may never look back, but if they do make it a pleasant view, and if they don't you have the rest of your life to be you, so make you great!
Thanks for taking things well C. I know it stinks, and trust me, I'm sorry you're here.
I do have a question. On your 180 list you mention a lot of general things like 'not appreciating him' and 'being miserable'. How specifically did this play out in your M? Did you push him away sexually? Did you talk negatively about him to your friends or family? Just trying to understand how this manifested.
Well, those things are general because in the few times I've actually been able to discuss what went wrong, that is what he said. They are his feelings, right or wrong,and I've been trying to find out what I did to give him those impressions. I loved sex with him...I'm very touchy feely and he's very good at, well, just very good. So no, didn't push him away. I also talked him up to people...I was proud of him and what he did.
No, it was me being insecure. I met him in college when my friends were close and loving, my teachers told me what a great painter I was, and I was ready for anything that came my way. Then, when all of that support, love and praise was gone, insecurity arose. It was not enough to hear it from him...I stopped appreciating what he said and I became critical of me. Then of everything. Not him though, but since he made everything possible, he took it that way.
Also, what were the reasons you wrestled with this? If you were plucked back into your M today, do you think you'd be able to do it all differently, or would there still be underlying personal struggles?
I have learned A LOT since our separation. Taken a good hard look at me and how I've acted. I wouldn't say I was miserable, more dissatisfied with my life. My world revolved around him and I wasn't DOING things for me, except putting food in my face. I'm a good cook...I had to taste it! I seldom painted or really dressed well (hoody and jeans uniform). But all meals were from scratch and fresh, kids were involved in lots of activities,I had other peoples kids at my home 24-7, I heliooptered and lived a stay at home fantasy while trying to smother my husband with my presence whenever he was home. I can hear him now saying, "Why don't you paint more in the studio I made you? Why do you always wear baggy clothes? Why don't you go out with your friends? He needed a break from me and was telling me all along what I needed to do to get happy. I was so worried about losing him that I made myself unhappy and lost him. Now I am trying to find happy me again... and it is slowly happening.
I can tell you that even after 18 months and a lot of introspection, I'm still not sure I would be able to do much better plugged back into the M I was in. Which is another reason I have no desire to date. Until I feel like I could do it better I don't want to play again. How prepared would you be to reenter that R, and what would be the biggest challenge?
Well, when you feel safe and secure that you're supportive spouse will love you no matter what, sometimes you can be blind to the damage you're doing by not working on making yourself happy. He felt that my complaints were a sign of not appreciating his hard work and took all of my complaints personally. My husband had a limit and I found it. I now have insight I didn't have before. I am working on making myself happy, creating friendships, finding activities I enjoy,I'm almost down to my college weight and loving how I look in my new clothes, ...just taking care of me and my needs. My biggest challenge will be communication, but I am learning to listen much better.
Keep posting about you, and keep digging really deep on these types of questions. There are things we avoid for most of our lives because we don't think we can overcome them. Something like this gives us a surge of power to change. Use it wisely and make great things happen for yourself!
So, revisiting this weekend and journeling.
Had a long talk about stuff with H. No begging, pleading or crying. Just calm talk about things.
I was able to ask him what made him turn around at the hill. What was he thinking and feeling. He would not talk about feelings, he doesn't do that; actively avoids it. He said he thought that he should come up and help me carry my stuff up to the lodge. When pushing for feelings through validating techniques (new skill!) he admitted that he could have driven on but thought what would he do if it was anyone else he knew? And then proceeded to give me examples of all of the families with multiple kids he'd helped out on ski trips over the years. Still no feelings, or explanation. So if he saw (named a female friend of D1 and his male F) he would do the same. He paused and said I don't know. I said, so you didn't think my friend and I could carry our stuff, or you were being the gentleman you've always been? He admitted he did not see that my friend was in the car. That caused me to pause. He then told me he looked for my car before he left for about 5 minutes and had decided that I didn't come. So you thought I had baled on my plan and then were surprised and happy when you passed my car? Yes. So what did you expect when you found me? I don't know. I let him think for awhile then said, well that was very thoughtful of you to come make sure that I was ok.
This is how the conversation went because he started talking about other things that went into R talk. His choice.I just went with it.
My take away from taboo R talk:
He is stressed about getting old...brought it up a lot.
He is stressed about money, tired of treading water with his 3 year old business...but we talked of how the turn over of new equipment and redecorating are almost done.
He will not speak of his feelings about his mother's alzheimers, but brings up his worries about his own simple memory lapses constantly. Big stressor.
He spoke of our adversarial and antagonistic 25 years together, so I pushed on that point for clarity. We were able to pare that down together with some questioning and explaining. I was able to show him that some of that was just being comfortable enough to show your hopes and dreams to someone, not saying you don't like or appreciate what is being done for you. I appreciate the fact that he wanted to help me carry my skis; it is not a sign that I don't like him or appreciate the feelings behind it when I want to prove to me that I can do it myself.
He brought up how my comments about things I wanted to change in the house we built together made him feel that I didn't like or appreciate him. I agreed that his feelings about that were understandable, but that maybe there were other ways to look at it. I gave him some time to digest that, then asked him why I never hung my own pictures on the walls at home (he knows this). Because the more I look at one, the more I will find something that, with fresh eyes, I will feel needs to be changed to make it better.I then pointed out that he does that, too, with our homes and his office. Its a natural thing to want something to change until it is as close to perfect as it can get. It isn't always a complaint and it isn't a personal attack. I liked the paintings enough to frame them, but there is always room for improvement.
I finally asked if he had talked to our former pastor whom he was talking to me about at one point. The only person he could really open up to emotionally. He seemed a little bit more ready to talk to him I hope he does, since he really has only discussed our Separation and R with me, and I'm a little biased.
Ciluzen, thanks for the thoughtful replies. In regards to the dynamic during the M, sounds like the biggest issue was that you were unhappy with yourself and counted on his constant affirmation to make up for the hole in your heart. Then when he failed to affirm you to the degree you desired, you felt let down, that it was his fault you were unhappy, and you began to resent him because if he loved you and saw how much you needed his constant affirmation should do more to give it to you. This, in turn, put a strain on him, because he felt he couldn't make you happy. It wasn't fun to be with a miserable spouse, and you made him to feel it was his fault for not being good enough to give you what you needed. So he was a failure being a man unable to please his W, living with an unhappy W that thinks it's his fault.
Is that something like accurate? Just trying to make sure I understand.
Actually, sounds very similar to JellyB. I say similar because she, too, said that she maintained good physical relations, and was a pleaser in a lot of other ways as well. JB, if you're reading, can you chime in?
Anyway, if I am reading this right then it is very similar to the dynamic in my R as well. I, too, felt insufficient. My love languages were physical touch and words of affirmation. I NEEDED that from XW to make up for the feeling of being broken that I lived with perpetually. And unfortunately no matter how hard she tried she could never fill that hole. As a result SHE felt like a failure, and it triggered her OWN insecurities about not being good enough. The conversations were always me saying "If you loved me you..." and her saying "I just want to be loved for who I am, not what I do for you, I'm never enough just being me..."
I think it's easier to 'make yourself happy' when you're on your own, simply because there is no one else to blame. I compare it to a 4 year old throwing a fit. If mom and dad are there they will scream and scream, trying to get mom or dad to do something (give them something, a hug, a toy, etc) to cheer them up. But put that 4 year old in a time out and they quickly realize they can scream all they want but the only person they are making miserable is themselves, so they decide to chill out and have fun staring at the pattern of paint on the wall.
I know I had that experience, and it sounds like you have too to a certain extent. What spooks me is that I don't know if I'm really 'better', or if I'm just better on my own because there's no one else to yell at. I think the amount of time I've pondered this question, the loss I've gone through, and just the experience I've gained, well, I'm hoping it's enough that I'd do better next time around. But I'm still not confident because I know how tough of a trap it was.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, mindreading, or projecting, so please let me know where I'm missing the mark.
As for your conversation with WAH...C, what can I say? It kind of put me off a little. Same thing as I posted earlier. I do like that you were calm and not clingy. But when I read your recap it did still come across as trying to sell him on your way of thinking. Maybe I'm mistaking the way the conversation played out, but for example:
I was able to ask him what made him turn around at the hill. What was he thinking and feeling. He would not talk about feelings, he doesn't do that; actively avoids it. He said he thought that he should come up and help me carry my stuff up to the lodge. When pushing for feelings through validating techniques (new skill!) he admitted that he could have driven on but thought what would he do if it was anyone else he knew? And then proceeded to give me examples of all of the families with multiple kids he'd helped out on ski trips over the years. Still no feelings, or explanation. So if he saw (named a female friend of D1 and his male F) he would do the same. He paused and said I don't know. I said, so you didn't think my friend and I could carry our stuff, or you were being the gentleman you've always been? He admitted he did not see that my friend was in the car. That caused me to pause. He then told me he looked for my car before he left for about 5 minutes and had decided that I didn't come. So you thought I had baled on my plan and then were surprised and happy when you passed my car? Yes. So what did you expect when you found me? I don't know. I let him think for awhile then said, well that was very thoughtful of you to come make sure that I was ok.
This is only my impression, but the way I take this is: WAH doesn't talk about feelings which is quirky at best, a problem at worst...so since he's got this defect I have to find tactful ways to interrogate him and force him to have the conversation I feel we should have in which he opens up in ways he's normally not comfortable.
Phrases like "he avoids it" make me perceive judgment (although it's an observation) based on the follow up. "I got him to admit" is similar. And the entire thing makes it seem like he's a witness facing a cross-examination.
I pushed on that point for clarity. We were able to pare that down together with some questioning and explaining. I was able to show him that some of that was just being comfortable enough to show your hopes and dreams to someone, not saying you don't like or appreciate what is being done for you
He brought up how my comments about things I wanted to change in the house we built together made him feel that I didn't like or appreciate him. I agreed that his feelings about that were understandable, but that maybe there were other ways to look at it. I gave him some time to digest that, then asked him why I never hung my own pictures on the walls at home (he knows this). Because the more I look at one, the more I will find something that, with fresh eyes, I will feel needs to be changed to make it better.I then pointed out that he does that, too, with our homes and his office. Its a natural thing to want something to change until it is as close to perfect as it can get. It isn't always a complaint and it isn't a personal attack. I liked the paintings enough to frame them, but there is always room for improvement.
The bold words...this isn't validation. "I understand how you feel but here's why you could feel differently", followed by a lecture on how else he could view it.
To me you completely overlooked that he spent decades of his life feeling insufficient...and now when he's trying to tell you that...this from a man that has ended the M because he can't live like this anymore and isn't one to share feelings...but when he actually takes a moment to open up and try one more time to let you see into his heart and witness the depths of the pain he's been living with...and you say "yeah, ok, BUT" and dismiss it all and make it his fault for not looking at it the way you do?
I finally asked if he had talked to our former pastor whom he was talking to me about at one point. The only person he could really open up to emotionally. He seemed a little bit more ready to talk to him I hope he does, since he really has only discussed our Separation and R with me, and I'm a little biased.
So now that we've established he's looking at it wrong, now we need to make sure he's getting professional help, because clearly someone needs to set him back on track so he can view things the way you do and everything will be better again.
That all said, what I LOVE out of this conversation is that you were able to recap the main points he was trying to make. This is EXACTLY what you should be spending your time doing. Understanding HIS point of view.
Really, your M might be easy to save.
1.
Decide to be happy, with or without him, and regardless of what he chooses to do.
2.
Listen, validate, STFU. Educational or career or skills or intelligence aside...stuff it. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?
3.
Show him through consistent actions that you respect his point of view as being as valid as your own, and that you are willing to make changes to your own behavior accordingly to form a better partnership.
I think you're doing really well with step one, and I think you're trying really hard with step two. Seems you have some habits to break here. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that there isn't a time and place for you to speak your voice, have your own views validated and heard...but now is NOT the time. Since you don't have a DB Coach I'll tell you what mine told me:
Being without a voice and letting her run you over is not building a model as to what a new M might look like. But now is NOT the time to speak your voice. That comes later, if and when she's ready to recommit to rebuilding a relationship. I think this applies to you as well.
Ciluzen, I say all of this with nothing but the best will. I do NOT pretend I have all of the answers. This isn't coming from a place of 'wisdom', just telling you how I'd have felt being your H and what I would be craving in my heart of hearts. I know I've written a lot and don't know your sitch all that well, so please take what helps and throw out what doesn't.
Hi Ciluzen,
I am here Zues,
Ciluzen, Zues has been the yin to my yang for a while. He doesn't let me hide because he knows where the hiding places are.
You will get great advice from Zues, because Zues understands the position from all sides. He is such a blessing as he understands the LBS so well, but understands the unappreciated, unfulfilled H also.
Zues will bring you such perspective. He has allowed me to see a side of my partners I never saw and gain understanding. His posts on my threads brought me huge insight. Please feel free to read them.
Note Zues and I can get very existential, but there are lots of goodies amoungst the occasional indulgent navel gazing. I wouldnt be without Zues.
As for me I am writing while at work today, I would love to offer what I can. I have been following you sitch with interest, but before I offer further support I would like to go back and read your sitch again. I would only want to add value, and not post to you for the sake of it. Because there are other's here who would potentially bring you more value.
On the surface though you are a much more rational thinker than I am. So alot of my experience won't apply. Also it seems reading your posts to Zues that you see lot of the initial places that have required 180's. You have made progress which is brilliant!!
In the meantime keep posting and take on board Zues's comments. His 2x4's are gentler in the long run than they intially look.
Talk soon Ciluzen.
Much Love
Jellyb XXXX
Ok, Z. I told you there would have to be more whacks with the 2x4.
I have spent the night and the morning reading and re-reading our convos and re-reading DR. All I can say is, thank you for trying to open up my eyes to how I am my own worst enemy in this sitch. Or, in the spirit of my new 180 of trying to not to say so much; THANK YOU.
Realizations:
- My "validating" always carries a "but" which invalidates.
- He talked of being a control freak so I placed him in that category, but I am probably a bigger one and on an emotional level.
- I am actually really angry that he left and am fixated on being a victim, which is the real reason I am having such a hard time detaching.
- He has been telling me how he feels all along...I was too dense to hear him expressing his emotions. "You keep telling me I'm wrong" or "you think I'm doing this wrong" should have been clues to how much emotional pain I was putting him in.
- I'm really stubborn. I always thought I was go-with-the-flow flexible, but I'm not.
My new 180's (feel free to cheer or bash or critique):
-compliment him when he treats me cordially or nicely, without questioning why
- express happiness FOR him when he talks of fun activities he gets to do- he works VERY hard at a stressful job-he deserves those fun breaks with anyone who makes him happy
- praise him for contacting his parents so much and let him know how great it is that they love him enough to do anything for him
- Let him know when he brings up D2 that I am usually at a loss when it comes to how to deal with her. Actually ask him what HE thinks we should do
- STOP initiating "talks". Stop initiating contact at all unless there is a real emergency or concern.
- He wants to support me in our house during the separation, so I created a budget that would cover bills and wrote it out to leave with his mail at the office. I also suggested he just deposit the money each month instead of calling me to come get it. It sounds cold, but he said at one point he wanted a business arrangement with me caring for the house. So,I think that will be better for us both with less contact.
- Ask him to change his address on the bills and periodicals he has to either his office or apartment.
- If he chooses to make contact, even if he asks questions about my life, I can be vague and brief (I think I can, I think I can...)
- GAL the heck out of my life. I am thankful I have a new business with my art to work on, a fulfilling job, a new church, and some new friends to make time for. I am grateful for my two busy daughters and a new son-in-law, as well as an elderly mother who has called me every night to see how I'm doing. My attention should be on these things right now, not on something of which I have no control and someone who says they don't think they like me.
Knock Knock.
Who's there?
Control Freak. OK, next I'm going to need you to go ahead and say 'control freak who'...
A good joke for those like us
Thanks for taking what I'm saying in a positive light.
At the end of the day the biggest 180 is to slow down, remain humble, and not to believe your emotions. For me this was a challenge. I'm super smart, and I can understand stuff really well...but I'm also a professional salesman, and can rationalize things and make them sound convincing. Then on top of it I'm on these forums, and can tel myself that I have the moral high ground and am more devoted to personal development, etc. So when I feel a certain way I can build a really moving case as to why I'm right...only if that leads me to run someone over then even if it sounded good when I told them, it won't feel good as life passes.
Kind of like I could sell ice to Eskimos, and maybe I could get their money, but as they discovered they don't need ice they would feel betrayed, violated, and feel I didn't care for them and just told them what I wanted to hear so I could get what I want from them. Likewise you can feel something so passionately you feel you are right, rationalize why you are right, convince your friends and family, explain it to H until he can't argue anymore and just nods and goes along with it...only he will feel bad, trampled down, unheard, uncared for, and eventually he won't want to live like that anymore.
So just remember that your H's feelings are just as right as yours. They are just as valid. He may not have your skills to articulate or debate that you do. But instead of taking that to mean that he's wrong, just take that to mean he doesn't have those skills. Instead of using your skills to make yourself heard and overpower him, use your skills FOR him. Understand what he's saying, and then work for him. See if you can state his position, his feelings, his priorities, his concerns, and his perspective as passionately as you can voice your own.
If you can do that a few things will happen. He will feel more heard than he ever has. And if you truly understand him enough to do all of that, and you place his feelings as equal to yours, you will start to see things differently as well. You will start making different decisions, some on major issues, others that are trivial and unconscious, but that add up to showing him that his inner self is safe with you, because you care and respect him as a person.
I agree it's harder now than ever because you're emotions are SCREAMING at you...that's why the best thing to do is slow down and remain humble. Damage control goes a long way, not digging, not making it worse. By all means vent away, build your case as to why he's terrible for leaving...but then take a deep breath and keep your perspective.
You're doing awesome, I don't know if I'd say you're your own worst enemy. I just would say you're human and imperfect. Just like all of us. But it's all good. You don't have to be perfect to save your M or deserve love.
I dropped off Christmas bread for ladies in H's office, greeted everyone that popped their heads out to say "Hi" (H did not, so I didn't bother him), and dropped his mail on his desk along with my note about the budget and changing mailing address for important mail.
D1 called a bit ago and started discussing Dad stuff, then told me he was sad because I "came through like the wind and didn't even say hi". No mention of note.
New Realizations:
I've talked too much to D1 about this as a friend. She is not; she is both H and I's D, so I told her we would not be discussing more than family get togethers and such in relation to H and I.
She talks to H about me and he vents to her, as well.
180's in place. Tonight I'm going to start my book club book.
Hi Ciluzen
I read over your posts last night and today. Zues has pointed out to you some small stylistic communication patterns and that these patterns potentially lead to your H feeling invalidated and you maintaining control. There is a reference about your profession and potentially this influencing your intimate communication style. I think I read you were an educator with experience in assessing behavioural concerns in children??? I may not have that correct.
The reason I ask, is Zues is right there are some significant similarities in our sitches. You are by far more rational and emotionally regulated, and have been able to move into action far more quickly than I. However we were both in relationships with good men, confident men who socially engage well. I too became reliant on my partner for social activities and support. Lost my confidence and independence, focussed myself around caregiving role.
My interest in your communication style is because I have similar one to what Zues pointed out to you. I too am in a people orientated assessing role. And have known for a while now that some of my communication style from my work leeches into my intimate conversations, and I use it to serve my needs with my partners.
I wonder what you think? I have some ideas, but wonder if this is something you have ever noticed. I am very interested because my partners could have written your husband's script to you. I could have written your script for you. Please tell me more, what do you notice? What is about our communication style that shuts our lovely men down when we feel we are being open, validating and interested in their emotional well being, but also interested in the shared relationship experience (ie my experience in the relationship).
If responding to these questions is not of value to you , please feel free to ignore. I would not be at all offended.
Many thanks
JellyB xxx
Hi Ciluzen
I read over your posts last night and today. Zues has pointed out to you some small stylistic communication patterns and that these patterns potentially lead to your H feeling invalidated and you maintaining control. There is a reference about your profession and potentially this influencing your intimate communication style. I think I read you were an educator with experience in assessing behavioural concerns in children??? I may not have that correct.
The reason I ask, is Zues is right there are some significant similarities in our sitches. You are by far more rational and emotionally regulated, and have been able to move into action far more quickly than I. However we were both in relationships with good men, confident men who socially engage well. I too became reliant on my partner for social activities and support. Lost my confidence and independence, focussed myself around caregiving role.
My interest in your communication style is because I have similar one to what Zues pointed out to you. I too am in a people orientated assessing role. And have known for a while now that some of my communication style from my work leeches into my intimate conversations, and I use it to serve my needs with my partners.
I wonder what you think? I have some ideas, but wonder if this is something you have ever noticed. I am very interested because my partners could have written your husband's script to you. I could have written your script for you. Please tell me more, what do you notice? What is about our communication style that shuts our lovely men down when we feel we are being open, validating and interested in their emotional well being, but also interested in the shared relationship experience (ie my experience in the relationship).
I have been thinking about this since Zues hit me with his 2x4 (so appropriate). Really studying our interactions.
My H is a very smart, loving, good hearted, hardworking man and a person others look up to as a leader. But he has many self doubts and insecurities that others don't understand or see (he didn't open his own practice for over 20 years because it was "easier" to be an employee). My style of interacting, whether I realized it or not, preyed on those insecurities and exacerbated them. He told me that when he would do certain things, he could hear my voice in his head telling him he was doing it wrong. I fought him when he told me that...I've never said "you have done x,y,z wrong", but I made him FEEL that way.
By acting fearful, I showed him I didn't trust him.
By saying, "what you should do is..." I told him he NEEDED me to tell him how to do something, once again telling him I didn't have faith in his abilities.
By being "open and honest" by telling him about my hurt feelings, I told him he was wrong in his actions without considering his feelings.
By withdrawing when he was having fun with others, I told him that he was not allowed to have fun unless it was with me...he was acting wrong again.
By my attempts to compliment him and show love by touching, kissing, hugging, and following him around, I looked to him more and more like I was trying to kiss a## to control him, and he believed those honest attempts to show him love less and less.
In a nutshell, I spent a lot of time showing my lack of trust in his abilities due to my own insecurities and fears and need to control, and he got tired of feeling like cr#p on my shoe.
All of my "I love you"s and compliments rang false to him after awhile because my actions showed otherwise. All of my physical attention probably just seemed selfish.[color:#993399][/color]
If responding to these questions is not of value to you , please feel free to ignore. I would not be at all offended.
Many thanks
JellyB xxx
Ok, So that quoting with my stuff in color doesn't seem to work today. Hope you can find my stuff in the middle there? LOL. Technologically inept today.
Morning Ciluzen, It's 6.30am here on Christmas Eve and I have just woken up and picked up my laptop to see if you responded. I think you and I are going to have an interesting conversation. I will respond I just for now to haul myself out of bed and do my last day of work for the week.
I am enjoying reading all of your GAL activities. Hope you have an awesome evening indulging in something.
Much love
JellyB xxx
PS I can't figure our the quoting colour thing either. I found if you type and then highlight then hit the colour it worked for me this week. LOL
Journaling, again, since I'm already here.
Its almost like someone turned on the lights (ZUes, JellyB, everyone else here) and I'm seeing sooo much.
I feel so guilty for breezing quickly through H's office yesterday and not stopping to chat with anyone as I usually do, not saying "hi" to him. But he never said "hi" to me, either. Why do I feel so bad? If my daughter hadn't told me what he said to her, I might not feel as bad. I realize that his reaction would not matter if I was truly detached.
I brought a gift for the office, his mail, and my budget letter. I even feel guilty for writing the budget letter, even though, in a way, that's what he has asked. Are these 180's? So contrary to what I would normally do? I wasn't being mean, just the opposite of what felt right.
I am realizing just how much I have hurt him. I've basically told him that I thought he was incapable of doing anything right. That I had no faith or trust in him. In the past few years I caught him in multiple, increasing lies. And let him have it verbally...wouldn't and couldn't forgive him. Now I realize, what did he have to lose?! I had already shown him I didn't trust his decision making and wouldn't allow him to have any fun without me "sharing my feelings".
I want to call him, text him, write him about the things I'm now seeing. But I know that that would backfire and probably cause a reaction of, "So what? Too little, too late." Or more likely, just H not believing me. I think his trust in me is gone.
It also doesn't mean I'm emotionally stable enough to talk to him without falling into my controlling default...I still need to learn how to not do that and practice STFU methods...and REAL validation (no but). I do believe I'm starting to get it.
So now for the less hard part. More inconvenient. Its snowing. A lot. I'm supposed to go out and get food for Christmas dinner. Right now D1, SIL and his parents are coming. D2 (unreliable and not so good at driving) is supposed to come in the morning. H has said nothing, but is going to D1's house for breakfast Christmas Eve (I just found this out from her last night). So maybe not planning on coming. I'm tempted to cancel all because my long road isn't plowed and probably won't be til school resumes. I don't mind spending Christmas alone, really. Not sure of what to do, though.
GAL is going to have to wait a bit, I guess. But what would I have done if H was living here right now? Well, he'd be skiing, I'd be painting, watching movies, reading a book, dinking around on the computer. All things I can still do. I guess I just need to get into the mindset that its just me and I need to make the best of it. Wish it would stop snowing so much, though.
Hi Ciluzen
It is not unusal, in fact probably a very human response for us to assume responsibility for every negative feeling that our partners experienced through the course of our relationships. I acknowledge that this is important part of the process. It is the pendulum swinging and is to be expected.
So with that said be careful about taking too much responsiblity. Remember that your H had a role in this too. There were things he did and didn't do that contribute to the good and bad feelings about yourself and relationship. You are new in your sitch and it takes some time to find the balance and perspective.
Please remember that just as much as you need to take responsiblity for your needs, wants and behaviours. H needs to as well. Your stepping back and giving him space will hopefully will support him to do so.
Ciluzen that other thing about being a natural caretaker is we are likely to take responsibilty for finding and describing solutions for and our loved ones. Our intent is honourable and a loving behaviour (in our eyes), however for our loved ones it can become disempowering or controlling. As caretakers we are also often feel responsible for people's negative emotions in response to actions we perceive as positive or having good intention. We are often a little heart-broken we when feel we haven't got it right, or guilt ridden or misunderstood.
A behaviour we often engage in is explaining to our loved ones, what our intent was, hoping that it will change their perspection of us.
There is much to be discovered about being a person who places others (our parnters/husdands/others) before ourselves. Our communication is often not direct and concrete.
I have gone a bit, but I just wanted to say, don't be too hard on yourself, your business is yours right now and husband's is his. You are managing the consequences of your behaviours and decisions and H will benefit from the opportunity to manage and move the consequences for his.
I really do hope there is some connection for you with your daughters. While I am jealous of your traditional Christmas postcard snow-filled Christmas, I would hate to see the weather stop you from seeing your lovely girls.
Much love to Cilizen
JellyBxxx
Hey, JellyB!
Thank you for your kind supportive words. I was able to get out today and get to our closest store, 30 minutes on a plowed hwy. A few of the neighbors used their tractors to clear our road a bit. Luckily I didn't have to go into town as reports were that it was an awful mess.
D1 came up (thank God for Subarus!) to edge her FIL's skis and visit a bit. Minimal M talk, we both tried to steer clear of it and almost managed. Plans are still on for everyone on Christmas.
Funny thing happened. H's receptionist called about some insurance/password stuff a few times and had made a mess of some things. So after work, H called to apologize and then vent. I let him, STFU smoothie in hand. No advice, no buts, no questions. When he started to say, "you don't need to hear all of this", I encouraged him by letting him know it was ok if he needed to vent a little. H vented for about an hour.
He is NOT coming to Christmas. He plans to ski all four days. I said "Good! You deserve to relax and do something you enjoy." Able to use my 180 list. Told him to have a great time.
I DO feel very badly for my part in this. The realizations are painful. I know he has a part in it, too, but mine are so strong and newly realized that I am reeling. I am going to stick to my plans that I've laid out since I went to all of the effort to make them. I hope I get the opportunity as I did tonight to show what I'm doing to change. I know I have to show him, can't tell him.
I hope you have a wonderful holiday. I would love to send you some of this snow. It is very pretty, right now. I have a beautiful view of a large red barn with a mountain just beyond, lots of pine and fir trees, and everything blanketed in white. It is nice to stop and look out the window here. I hope someday to share the view with someone else again.
C, I've been very drained today and haven't had it in me to muster much of a response. I echo much of what Jelly says about not swinging the pendulum too far. You can make adjustments to your behavior without punishing yourself for being imperfect. And you don't have to 180 everything about who you are, just make the changes you feel are appropriate, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
That's all I have in me right now, probably a good 180 for me to end a post before reaching 10 paragraphs
Ciluzen, just wanted to stop by and wish you a Merry Christmas!
I'm proud of you for the way you handled H last time. Great validating and 180's.
While you realize where you went off track, try not to make it the entire reason for the M breakdown? The decision to end the M was H's...not yours. You may have things to work on, and do work on them. H has given you a gift of time to deal with things that should be dealt with. A wise woman will put the time apart to good use. You strike me as a wise woman!
Have a very Merry Christmas!
Thank you, Judy. Enjoy your family today. I'm looking forward to seeing my girls today. Merry Christmas!
Just journaling for something to distract me.
H called a few times yesterday to ask if I had power (many power outages here due to heavy snow), was driveway plowed by neighbor (it was), and to let me know D2 made an appearance at D1's house for Christmas Eve breakfast (very big surprise).
This morning H called to...well, no reason. Brought up kids coming today, when they'd come, he joked about if D2 would actually show up when she said she would (she texted that it would be 2 hrs later while we were on phone, we had a good laugh at that), and told me all about his ski adventure yesterday. I, once again, mostly listened and validated when needed. He said he'd call again on his way down from skiing, to talk to kids. That's fine.
He also told me my Mom called to wish him Merry Christma so I told him she had sent a present here for him. He seemed surprised, but I let that go without commenting. I told him I had something here for him, too- nothing big...just some stuff to put in his backpack for skiing. H thought that was nice. Whatever, really. I offered him leftover prime rib and scalloped potatoes for dinner tonight, D2 could bring them by when she goes home. I know that my 180 would be to leave him to himself (he later on in convo told me he had bought some steak for Christmas dinner), but it doesn't have to happen, either. Me trying to control or me being nice during holidays; one hand up, one hand down like a scale. Dunno. I'm going to second guess it all even though I shouldn't because, well...I'm not quite there yet.
Looking forward to seeing my kiddos soon and do our new version of Christmas. Just kinda blah about the whole thing. Trying to choose happy, as they say, if not for me then for them and others.
Merry Christmas, I would love to pop by for a glass of bubbles and stare at the amazing snowy scene outside your window.
Sounds like a good exchange with H. Keep letting him lean in. Validate.
I chose to be happy all day yesterday. My it can be exhausting. Having your children there will lighten the load I'm sure.
Thank you so much for Christmas wishes on my thread. They were very much appreciated.
Thinking of you
Jellybxxx
JB,
Pop by anytime! I will greet you with bubbly and slippers at the door!
Sometimes choosing to be happy can be exhausting.
D1 and SIL and D2 came over and we had a good time eating quiche, drinking Mimosas, opening a few presents (lean year) and playing Scattergories (much more loose with adult children and adult beverages). D2 had to leave for work, but then D1's in-laws came. More games and talk, then dinner. I love to cook and I love it when people enjoy my cooking. Totally enjoyed the evening.
H called after he got home from skiing and I was prepared to hand off phone immediately to D1, but he wanted to chitcht a bit. I made it cheerful and short and gave phone to D, then went back to talk with my new family members.
D1, SIL, D1's friend (my "other daughter") and H will all be skiing together tomorrow. Normally I would feel a little left out, but I was very, am very, content right now. It may only be the wine from dinner, but I think the choosing to be happy idea actually worked a bit tonight. D1 even told me H was asking how I was...did I seem happy? Was I ok? This might have set me off last weekend (ok. it did) But it didn't bother me...didn't break my contentment. She told him I was having a good time. Phew. I reiterated that she didn't have to be a go-between..."ask her yourself" also works. But whatever.
Looking forward to skiing later this week with her (I had so much fun last time that I want to go again!) and then seeing Star Wars with she and her husband. I also am going to see "Joy" with some meetup ladies on Sunday. GAL this vacation! Choosing happy.
Sounds like a lovely day Cil! You did gooooddd!
H seems temp checking via daughter. As you said you would like him to do it directly but no involve your D, but distance sometimes is a good thing.
I'm so glad that you have found an authentic love of sking. Mr M, my first love was a cyclist when I met him and I took it up because I didn't want to be a cycling widow. It was always motivated to ride, because it meant so much to him. I didn't actually find my own love of cycling until with separated and I was completely riding for myself. It was whole different experience. All my successes were for me and not what he would think or feel about it.
PS: I love a memosas!
JellyBXXX
Great job with Christmas, Ciluzen! The day you describe sounds heavenly. Quiche and mimosas? Tell me more! What else did you make for this event?
In the past, we'd do a Mexican dinner them for Christmas Eve. I moved that to Christmas Day this year. No one seemed to mind, and I had very few leftovers. That always makes me happy!
JB,
What you said about cycling...that is it EXACTLY! A whole different experience skiing for myself.
I also believe you are right on the temp checking. H has convinced himself that I never really liked him, though, so him hearing of me being happy without him still bothers me. But what am I supposed to do? Shrivel up and die? My post bomb "situational depression" as my IC calls it, caused me to drop weight like crazy...I guess I did kind of shrivel up. Anyway. I'm not in charge of his reactions to how I feel, as reported by someone else.
Ancaire, I spent Christmas Eve alone...that was sort of hard, but I read my book for book club (The Same Sky...pretty good, actually), watched "Trainwreck" (a naughty comedy that had me laughing out loud), journaled, and I read and posted on these boards- you all kept me sane-ish.
My D2 is allergic to wheat and My D1 has celiac so I made a crustless mushroom, ham and veggie quiche, fresh fruit, and GF spice cookies with lots of ginger and cinnamon. My kids love those. I use lots of butter and roll them very thin so they melt in your mouth. Some GF versions of things taste...well, just not worth even trying to replace the original. But you can't tell the difference with the cookies!
For dinner I made herb and salt crusted prime rib and my version of scalloped potatoes with parmesan and gruyere cheese, prosciutto, and riesling wine. D1 made a great salad with mixed greens, goat cheese, and fruit. Desert was a fresh cranberry and spiced apple crumble with vanilla gelato.
The gelato spurred our only talk of H with everyone. H would get excited whenever we had a big snow and would run out to gather a big bowl of the new stuff. He then made "snow cream" with whole milk, vanilla, and sugar. A tradition for our family. Just caused a chuckle.
Mexican food sounds like a great tradition! I grew up in Southern California...most of my friends were hispanic. Their moms all thought I was too skinny and kept trying to feed me every time I was over. Loved that!
All right. I'm moving, so I can be your neighbor. LOL
The food sounds so delicious. I didn't do any gluten free this year, but I played around with a white chocolate cranberry cookie recipe. This year, I melted about a third of the white chocolat and added it to the dough. I used hazelnuts instead of the usual almond, walnut, or pecan. I toasted them first.
Those cookies were so good. I could only eat one because it was so rick - but it was flavor in every bite. Perfect with coffee.
Growing up in Texas, tamales are big around Christmas for some reason. Someone always makes several dozen tamales and gives them to us a Christmas gifts. That's what started the Mexican Food Christmas Eve. I moved it to Christmas this year, because I just didn't have the energy to cook a lot of food. So, I set it all out buffet style, and everyone personalized their plates. I'll definitely be doing that again! So much easier than hosting, gift-exchange, big fancy dinner, and clean-up.
No one spilled, so the house stayed clean. I was a happy momma.
If Momma's happy, everybody's happy! Paraphrasing, of course.
Tamales...yum! I love Mexican food of any kind. And no spills at a get together? Amazing. Our only one was water, luckily. My coffee table is dog tail height.
Those cookies sound decadent. I'm all about hazelnuts, I have a few hazelnut trees (shrubs?)- whatever, they are small.
So I have a question.
Just because I know my H is a question asker. What would be a good response if he asks why I don't call or text him, since I'm trying to only respond to his initiations?
I just tell W that it didn't seem like it warranted a response and leave it at that.
Just because I know my H is a question asker. What would be a good response if he asks why I don't call or text him, since I'm trying to only respond to his initiations?
"Is there a reason I should?"
Check. Mate.