New thread. I woke up feeling very sad today about my marriage. I am on my way to IC this morning.
I feel like I am getting close to another step forward in detaching, moving forward. You know when you can sense an energy shift? I feel a big one coming. And I am scared of it and looking forward to it at the same time.
H is working from home this morning. I want to walk in there, tell him I love him and strip off my clothes and just connect with him. I feel like the part of me that has these urges for him is slipping away and I want to try one more time before I am further detached.
I am probably kidding myself. Romanticizing the sitch. I should just go to counseling and keep DB'ing and keep my pants on.
Last thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2609712#Post2609712
Photoka,
I know the feeling. I have many times thought I should just call up WW and talk to her. Then she will just fall into my arms. WRONG ANSWER. It will not work. They are not the same people they used to be. They will not reason with us. They are not emotionally connected like they used to be.
I know I tried this in the beginning and it did not work. They will let you know when they are ready for it. Pursuing them will just set us back. Keep on track. You are doing good.
I sometimes contemplate a one for the road effort. I say that because it would most likely push my W away, even if by some miracle she was up for it.
But I am fairly sure that would be seen as pursuing and that is frownedupon in DB world.
My W confides in me the details of one of her friends going through D. She was LBS. She still has had sex more times with her STBXH since they brokea up than I have in the last three years. And he has OW.It: s unreal talking to my W about that when we are sexless for so long.
Don't really know why I rambled there. Hope IC helps.
We are in about the same spot on this path. I am not sure when the next step will happen but I see/feel small glimpses of a different understanding from time to time. I am not there yet.
Hang in there photoka, better days are coming, hopefully in our life times.
I would like to get your perspective on a thought I've have but don't want to get into it at work. ttyl
That is exactly how I feel at times too. It just seems logical. But the feeling passes and I am always glad I resisted.
Hey Photoka,
I know the feeling that you are loosing the connection. It comes and goes for me. I am noticing other woman now and I feel conflicted. My W was never a as beautiful outside as she was inside and now that she is so different now inside I don't see the beauty on the outside sometimes. I feel like I am being so superficial looking at it that way. The urges are slipping away, its sad.
Mutation, I would love to give you my perspective.
Roiste- I am laughing at your "one for the road" comment.
Mona, Vise, Whyus, I did reach out to him not that explicitly and I was ignored. I am glad I didn't do what I wanted to, that rejection would have hurt.
And stupid me then sent a message to my ex-boyfriend and I got a VERY nice response. I am glad he lives far away or I'd be tempted to do something stupid. I am doing something stupid by flirting. But I flirted with my H first and he didn't want me so that's how I am justifying it. But its still not right.
I feel like I am getting close to another step forward in detaching, moving forward. You know when you can sense an energy shift? I feel a big one coming. And I am scared of it and looking forward to it at the same time.
My W went away for a job back in Feb. when she left, I remember thinking "there's a chance she may never come back after this." Three weeks later, BD. I still don't know why I thought that, but it's interesting reflecting back.
H is working from home this morning. I want to walk in there, tell him I love him and strip off my clothes and just connect with him. I feel like the part of me that has these urges for him is slipping away and I want to try one more time before I am further detached.
I am probably kidding myself. Romanticizing the sitch. I should just go to counseling and keep DB'ing and keep my pants on.
It's not about romanticizing. It's about that thought that if we just did or said the RIGHT thing, we could FIX this. You don't want a "last ditch...encounter", you want to snap him out of this. Stay patient. Your day will come.
Photoka you are a kind compassionate intelligent strong woman like my wife and for this reason I would like to hear your perspective.
I must frame your mindset which has nothing to do with your real life situation but will use your experience for my circumstance. I know your opinion does not translate into my wife's opinion. Okay, here we go.
You have be married 26 years.
You had 3 good years at beginning of your marriage.
Your husband never cheated on you.
Your husband never physically hurt anyone.
Your husband was a weekend drunk for 18 years.
Your husband would bully and yell at kids to make them listen.
Your husband has be sober since 2008.
Your husband has been a good father since 2008.
Your children love your husband and want marriage to survive.
Your husband loves you and want to make the marriage work.
You have lost your love for your husband since 2008.
You feel you have no common interests with husband.
With this mindset and a high level of detachment, no connection, a lot of indifference. What would you do with your marriage, keep trying or bail?
I am asking you because you will are strong enough to walk away under certain circumstances. I know this doesn't mean anything in regards to my situation but after 9 months of silence I don't know what to think.
Please tell me if you would bail, don't placate me.
Thank you Photoka for your time and honesty. If you ever need my opinion please ask.
Wow, Mutatio. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to be mean, but there is very little chance that Photo can give you an opinion on that list. There are so many more variables at play in your situation. It's not so cut and dry. I sense you want a female perspective, but without knowing what your wife is thinking, anything Photo comes up with really won't be helpful.
You are kind, caring, and willing to jump through hoops for your wife. Why she cannot appreciate that is impossible to know. It still seems you are way too invested in only one outcome with your wife. That equals unspoken pressure. It's not good for either one of you.
I know how very hard it is. We all empathize with your pain. It's time for you to detach even more. I don't know the answer for you, but start thinking about what you want. What would you want if she were not in the picture? You are not allowed to say "my wife". LOL
Judy
Mutatio, I wouldn't bail on you. But I am not your W. A lot of women (and men) bail for less than the reasons you listed. I don't know what to tell you. I am a romantic at heart, and when I fall in love I don't fall out. I have also been with my H for 26 years (married for 17 of those) and I could write out a very long list of compelling reasons why I should have left him, but he is the one that decided he wants out and I am still here. I think it is just not in me to leave. My mindset is one of love and giving the benefit of the doubt and it is hard for me to hold a grudge or view him in a negative light even when I probably should. And that is probably one of the reasons why I am in this mess- because I assumed H was wired like I am. And I am assuming you are wired like me too.
You have been sober and more connected to the children since 2008. That is a long time. If she had BD'd in 2008 or 2009 I would get her point. If you were drinking and bullying the children now, I could understand her wanting out. But why wait until now? 7 years is a long time.
What does your W say she wants? When was the last time she brought up D? Or does she seem content to continue living like room mates for now?
I think the bottom line for both of us is that following the DB strategy is letting them hide behind a wall of silence and I think, at least for my H, he can hide forever. So what do we do? My H is not the kind of person who will take the lead, or any risk, and I am scared he will be content to give me the silent treatment forever. I am thinking I need a new strategy- sort of DB with a twist- but I am afraid to break from the DB strategy because maybe this is my anxiety talking. What do you think?
And I have another question for you. Was your W abused as a child? I am starting to believe there is a missing piece here for my H, and that something is making him shut down, something that has nothing to do with me and that I can't fix. Maybe your drinking and bullying 7+ years ago triggered something from her childhood? Just a thought. My IC suggested this theory to me today about H, and I know he was abused but maybe it was worse than I realized. It makes sense because he sure is not living in the present and it sounds like your W isn't either.
So don't ask me. I am sure I didn't answer your question. I wish I knew what to tell you that could help. If I was your W I would talk to you and then you'd have your answer.
Your W does not know how lucky she is that she has a man who loves her and is willing to stand by her side and examine his own behaviors and work so hard to keep her. She is a lucky woman. And I don't know why she doesn't see that. I don't know.
Ancaire, I knew what I was doing but am so desperate for dialog I looked for a surrogate. Seems pretty pathetic now.
Photoka, I am sorry to put you on the spot. I know your response signifies nothing other then how kind you are. I am so lonely. I have not given up on her but she acts as she has given up on me. Here are the answers to your questions.
If you were drinking and bullying the children now, I could understand her wanting out. But why wait until now? 7 years is a long time.
She had a EA/PA 7 years ago. That triggered my sobriety. She felt guilty and we made it work for 3 years and now it is back to the stage we were at 7 years ago. Should have gone to MC then.
What does your W say she wants?
She says she doesn't know, shes working on herself.
When was the last time she brought up D?
I brought it up 2 months ago, she brought it up 4-6 months ago.
Or does she seem content to continue living like room mates for now?
She seems very content with separate bedrooms and separate lives
So what do we do?
I will keep DB'ing and leaning on all you wonderful people. I wish I had a better answer. It seem like the only way to fix this is to leave it alone.
What do you think?
I like to play things straight up. Adding a twist to this kind of situation seems reckless to me.
Was your W abused as a child?
My wife was not abused. Her mother was domineering but not extreme. This is how my wife became an "advoider".
I am again sorry for putting you on the spot with this.
In regards to your real life situation what I do not understand is why your husband is not trying to work it out with you. The only thing I think that makes any sense to me is that he thinks he has it under control and your not going anywhere. If this is what he's doing then there is only 2 reasons it could be happening. He thinks he has the marriage understood and under control which is a dangerous game( this was my downfall ) or he is clueless. Even though you've talked with him he may not realize the depths of your unhappiness.
Thank you for your kindness.
Mutatio, I did not feel on the spot, I just can't answer for your W because I don't understand her any better than you do. Please if it helps, ask anything. If anything I can say can put something into perspective or even help you through the day I am willing to do it. I understand your pain, heartbreak, loneliness, and am more than willing to give a shot at alleviating any of that even if just for a few minutes.
For my H, I truly believe that he is waiting for me to just fix everything.
He does now know that I won't wait forever and that he could lose me. I think for him that would be a relief because he doesn't want to look at his own issues. I believe that he wants 1- for me to fix everything, or if not that 2- for me to walk away so he doesn't have to fix anything. I think for him #3- looking at himself is not an option.
I told my IC today that I feel like H and I are on opposite sides of a bridge. I am willing to cross that bridge more than 50% of the way, even 100% of the way, if only he would turn around and face my direction. Right now he has his back to me, with an occasional turn around to lob a hand grenade in my direction. But he is still standing on his end of the bridge. So that is hopeful, he hasn't run away. Nice metaphor, huh? And the saddest part is that I take comfort in this and look how bad it is! Just turn around and face me, H. That's what I am looking for right now.
I am sorry Mutatio, I wish I had an answer for you. Or a glimmer of hope.
My H also hasn't brought up D in 7 months. But he hasn't acted like he wants to be here either.
Oh, Mutatio! I hope I didn't come across as fussing at you! I was attempting to help you. It gets really lonely as a LBS, doesn't it? I crave that interested human connection with my H all the time. I wish I realized how precious it was back then, and had taken better care to guard it!
I honestly don't know how you are able to cope. The situation you are in would cause me to go insane. You have got to be one of the most patient men on this planet. My wish for you is that your wife wakes up one day to the treasure she has right in front of her.
It wounds me that you referred to your post as pathetic. I would never say such a thing in regards to you. It was not my intention to make you feel that way. Please accept my most sincere apology for coming across in a judgemental manner?
As always, I remain one of your staunchest supporters. -Judy
Ancaire You did not make me feel that way. Only I can make myself feel anything. You are my friend and I need you to share the truth. Please don't feel the need to filter. After I posted the question to Photoka I kind of regretted it and feel embarrassed for such weakness. I miss my wife and want her to look at me say anything that is not household business related or a look and a simple smile. Please don't worry about it my friend.
Photoka, I think you and I are sharing the same moment now. I appreciate you holding my electronic hand. When you seem annoyed with your husband it reminds me of my wife 7 years ago when my marriage started to fall apart. I am screaming in my head to your husband to wake up before its to late. I too did not want to look inward, until 7 years ago when my wife had her EA/PA. That shattered my ego and I realized I was a selfish insensitive SOB.
It sounds like you have to accept husband like he is since you cant change him and he won't change himself. Maybe the stakes are not high enough for him to change. Maybe you have to rock his world a little harder to wake him up and get his attention. If he loves you he must care what is happening.
I can not fathom why spouse that is willing to destroy a marriage can not have the guts to look inward to find the problems in their lives. I have crawled into the dark recesses of my mind and pulled all the crap out into the light of day. They're fracking cowards. Sorry I'm getting angry now.
Photoka, Ancaire you are beautiful souls.
They can't face the pain inside themselves, so they project it outward. They have gotten into a dynamic in which they feel they need to protect themselves from you, and anything you do or say, no matter how positive, unleashes a whole lot of bad chemicals into their system that make that feel like they are under attack and they just want it to stop.
M this is her fight. You can't really do anything about that except take care of yourself, give her the space and time, and in the meantime work on your own issues. The more you try to do anything toward her right now, the less chance you are giving her to face up to the reality that she has to deal with her own issues.
Treat it like a business arrangement right now. You are friendly, but not friends. You are responsive, but it isn't your responsibility. You give your time attention as you can when requested, but you have other business to attend to. Some day you many get a chance to do more, but not today, and not tomorrow or the next day. Maybe not ever. And, it is OK. It really is. If it isn't OK, then that is what you have to work on in you rather than trying to fix your M. Only when you don't need her the way you believe you do, can you hope to really be able to build a healthy R with her. Fixing the M is something she will have to come to want to do. Be ready by working on not being so needy I think the just and hurting and grasping that if the chance comes, you are ready for it.
It's hard. It hurts. It's sad. It will be OK though. It really will be.
I had a good night's sleep and my brain must have been working on this while I was sleeping. I went to bed feeling like I need to insist that he get his own apartment, because he is miserable to live with and bringing me down. I woke up to the word "detachment."
I feel as if I am detaching and then after a few weeks, suddenly I realize I am not detached at all.
The more I think about what my IC said about H having been abused the more I think she could be right. That could explain why he will not look inward. The anger. The control his parents have on him. His sexual passivity. His struggles w. our daughter. My IC said it sounds like D is more emotionally aware and mature than H and she thinks he is "stuck" at age 10-12 reasoning and she would bet that something traumatized him at that time. Something he doesn't want to explore, something that surfaced in his brain when he was struggling with D's issues last year. If that is the case I can truly have more empathy and patience for him. He did tell me years ago about an incident from his childhood but kind of brushed over it. I am wondering if that is where the missing piece of the puzzle lies. I can't ask him. I hope his therapist is good, and I hope I can give him the calm home base that he needs to figure this out. If that is even it.
In the meantime, I will detach. I decided as one of my GAL activities that I will start reading again. I used to read a lot but not much any more. I am exhausted from running around, and all this wine drinking is not good for me. I am going to read 2x per week, inspirational books, I am thinking of reading biographies.
Detaching is very hard. I think I had such an easy time of it because my XH physically moved 1600 miles away. Best gift he gave me! GAL helps and I started reading again too. Like you, I used to read a lot, but then kind of moved away from it, but I'm rediscovering it and it is great.
Good luck! And hang in there. It DOES get better.
You know, Photo...I think you're on to something.
I struggled so much with detaching. I started focusing on my H through the lens of his damaged childhood. It was pretty bad. But, I became compassionate and less concerned with the outcome. It made a huge difference when I looked at him less as a man hurting me, and more as a person who'd been wounded badly as a vulnerable child.
Thank you Ancaire. I think this might be the missing piece of the puzzle. We have had some other issues over the years and I used to wonder what was wrong, but never could put my finger on it. I have been researching today and it really fits. I am wondering if he started losing it as my son reached the age where my H was abused, plus that coincided with some other major life stressors. I wish I could talk with him.
One thing that really upsets me, and this line of thinking definitely isn't going to help me, but why is it that when H was bullied and abused as a child his parents refused to believe him, (from the incidents he told me, I don't know about the bigger incident that he once mentioned) but now that H is an adult and he reached out to them when he was depressed, they viciously attacked and blamed me? Why did they never come to his defense as a child who was actually in danger but now rushing in to his defense as an adult who is NOT being abused? Where was there anger and protection when he was a child?
OMG. I just figured it out. This is why he is listening to them about me. This is why he is letting them go on and on about me. Because this is what he needed from them when he was a child.
V, are you around? I need somebody with some expertise in abuse.
Ancaire, I just noticed you are going to Retrouvaille! That is good news. I am looking forward to hearing how that goes.
My goals for October. Inspired by Azzork's excellent goal setting.
I am going book shopping tomorrow. We have a huge used book store that is really fun, has everything. I am going to look for inspirational/uplifting/interesting biographies. Any suggestions? I am going to replace some of my "running around keeping busy" GAL with reading because I am exhausted.
I am also going to start juicing tomorrow. I will for the month of October make a very healthy veggie juice for one meal each day this month. Preferably breakfast, but if I can't do it for breakfast I will have the juice for another meal that day. I bought the ingredients this afternoon so I am ready to start. (apples, carrots, celery, beets, and some super green powder)
Also going to see 2 performances of "live music" this month ( I am loving watching bands).
I have been walking 3 miles every morning with a friend, we are kind of slow. We plan to increase our speed to under 14 minutes per mile next week. And then when we reach that we will reduce it to 13 minutes the next. Who knows, we may end up running eventually.
I will actively look for a job this month. I started a conversation last week with a hiring manager and she kind of disappeared on me this week, so I will track her down and talk further. If that doesn't pan out, I will do a full on search elsewhere.
I will keep up with Church and church activities.
I will keep up with my girls' nights out. I will reduce them a bit though because I am drinking too much. 2 nights a week is good.
I will do some light weights and ab exercises- Mon- Wed- Fri. Starting today. I have the equipment, just need to use it. I have a good and quick routine that is very do-able, I just need to do it.
I am also going to get a "makeover" - I am not the best at makeup application, I am going to get a lesson from the makeup counter lady- and start wearing a little more makeup. Also getting a new hair style.
I will continue with my voice lessons this month. Might quit after October, I am facing the reality that I am not a singer. LOL. Might switch to guitar.
We (H and I) go to a big halloween party every year and I usually wear whatever I can pull together at the last minute. Usually a witch. This year I am going to wear a sexy costume. Totally outside my comfort zone. I am thinking maybe Marilyn Monroe? Haven't decided yet.
Photo,
The dynamic is correct, yes your H is trying to resolve his Abuse and FOO (Family of Origin) issues in my opinion.
The resolution of his childhood trauma by projection. There are a couple of great TED talks on childhood abuse. There are markers called ACES which are indicators of the level of childhood neglect.
The more complex issue is his parents reaction, I am assuming benign neglect and ignoring his childhood trauma. There are a number of reasons why this happens, firstly the parents assume the abuse is made up or misunderstood by the child, in 'olden' days of yore this would be typical. There was a perception that abuse was a stranger danger effect too, this is ignorance and indcisio. The current view is protect the child so that may be what they are thinking now. That child is a grown man.
Secondly the parents may not ever have understood the sitch and were paralysed, afraid to upset the apple cart, cause a rift in heir lives, lose their child.
Thirdly they deliberately ignored it as if participating. This seems least likely.
This may help H heal a little bit and repair his rift with his parents, he may see they care but were misguided. It's unlikely to do as much as damage as you think, if H reverts to teenage status as would be usual in healing FOO then he wil be rebellious. Tell a teenager with rebellion not to do something and they do.
If I were you Photo, I would just go "so........."
Let this one go, no resentment, you have seen the dynamic. The most important thing is healing H of his FOO even if that is only for his children to be a better dad.
Healing is going to make him healthier, an opening to repair may arise, let him take it. You could investigate the ACE score try googling got your ace score? ACES too high.
V
ACES= adverse childhood experiences
Apologies not defining, this scores out of 10, the Google I quoted also contains a resiliency test.
It might be worth discussing it , such as I came across this fascinating piece of research....
V
Thank you V. I just looked at the ACE test, and both H and I score a 4. He might be higher, since I took the test on his behalf, maybe more happened than I know about. I am a 10 for resilience. From what I "think" H would get a 0 on resilience. But I don't know, he'd have to take it, I am mind reading, based on what he used to tell me when he used to talk to me.
The thing with his parents. His mother is extremely self absorbed and his father a workaholic. I think it was neglect, not wanting to deal with issues, just being too busy in their own worlds to deal with him. FIL had cheated on MIL when H was young, and they were separated for awhile, and she was depressed and checked out. Plus even when she is checked in she knows no boundaries and is borderline narcissistic. Now they are older and they have less going on in their lives and smother their sons who they used to neglect.
The hard part for me with them bonding with H is that they are raging against me and they all seem to get energized from this. They fuel each other and I am the bad guy. I have stayed out of it. Several months ago I asked H to stop this kind of talk about me with them and he refused. About a month ago I asked him again and he agreed. He is still talking to them every day, still seems angry and distracted when he is coming off a call with them.
But H is leaving the room less to take calls, leaving his laptop open with his "chats" up, so I am thinking maybe his talks with them are becoming more about every day normal things. Which IMO normalizes the relationship between him and them, and him and me. I don't need to leave the room to talk to my parents, why would I? I have no secrets and no secret agenda.
My D14 is very perceptive. She said the other day " When grandma and grandpa are here Dad is an even a bigger jerk than usual and I can't be around him. " And it is so true. When the IL's are here it is almost intolerable to be around H, he just acts really weird, distant and angry with them and clingy at the same time. It is hard to explain. He said it is all my fault that I created this dynamic between him and his parents.
I am not planning on interfering with his relationship with his parents, other than to ask that they not gang up on me. I explained to him that I don't discuss his faults and our problems with my parents and he seemed to finally get it. An example- MIL was calling me weekly after MC for months and asking me to explain why I said XYZ during counseling. And H was obsessed with an incident in which he claims I was a jealous wife- kept repeating the incident in MC. (truth be told, I was jealous, but it was IMO a normal reaction to the sitch. And not a pattern for me.) MIL suddenly claimed she had been there for the incident and told me she witnessed the whole thing and my behavior was shocking. She was not there!
So V, do you think he is on the right track with his R with his parents? You think talking about me is something I should just forget about? His mother has been been emotionally manipulating and tormenting me for 26 years. I am done with her and have decided it all rolls off me now, but she has been absolutely horrible to me. I feel like I was abused all this time and nobody gives a crap and I just need to let it go, but what about me? I can let it go for the sake of my H, but I did not deserve the treatment I received. I guess I just let it go. It is hard because I want someone to acknowledge the way I was treated. But what matters most is my H.
Thank you V. I will look up the TED talks.
I will bring the article to H's attention. I will tell him my counselor suggested it to me as I was abused too.
In response, if it was me, I would ignore it, acting as if.
The more concerning issue is the breach of MC, this I feel needs to be broached in the next MC session, if and when. This can be a barrier to MC.
Calling abuse generally won't help you, managing the sitch so the opportunities are minimised is better. We have review techniques before. You know the truth, have acknowledged it to yourself. So it's worthwhile looking to see how you can raise your emotional resilience score. The test measures the childhood counters and I think helpful for understanding of net ACES. If you read some of the original study results it's very interesting too. The ACE test is a good starter measure, and a quick guide.
I personally believe everyone should know their ACE score, mine is a 2, partly because of boarding school and being an ex pat. And the resilience is high for exactly the same reasons. I believe my WH score is a 4 or 5. It sounds very cold to say that you mentally ACE score others but I do. I have a wonderful friend whose ace is 7, it has had some really difficult life consequences for her as her resilience score is poor although improving.
V
I have always maintained that in your sitch at this point in time, you are in effect the 'business leader' of the family as far as emotional wellbeing and health is concerned. I still think that 'fits' best. I say leader and not managing director deliberately as you are herding cats rather than controlling sheep.
I scratched my head for emotional resilience resources for you and looked through my resource bank, there was a series of research projects in the UK resulting in a workplace toolkit on resilience by a company called Towers Perrin, it has web links in it to lots of resources. The project was eventually adopted as a government initiative in the UK. I am having trouble with links and losing posts at the moment so I am having to recommend googling if you can't find it then I will see what I can do otherwise.
Google Bitc.org.uk emotional resilience toolkit business action for health. Content is so-so but resources listed are worth exploring. There is loads out there on emotional resilience, at the root of it is love of self for self. That is something achieved on the inward journey to self, no one can do this for an adult. Repair, healing is our own gift to ourselves.
Did you use the cantering resource and has it been helpful. Some thing I can recommend in future?
V
Hi Photoka. Thanks for posting on my thread and I e just read through you'rs. I see the wonderful Vanillia is here and you couldn't ask for more compassion and understanding.
I don't have anywhere near the intelligence of Vanillia or her grasp of abuse so I'll just say from what I e read you seem to be coping and dealing with some really tough issues. Don't take to much responsibility for the M problems and Hs own problems We are all grown ups and have choices to make
Take care. Rd
Vanilla, I am still working my way through the resources you recommended to me. You have been a tremendous help. I think I am so emotionally and physically exhausted from these last 7-8 months that I am having trouble absorbing new information. I read for about 3 minutes and my brain gets "full."
Again you are helping me so much. I started reading about the leadership info, had trouble finding the audio, but I will go back to it and try again.
My ACE score was 7. I think that explains quite a bit. Now I'm depressed.
Resilience was 11. Some good news!
Judy! 7! That is a troubled childhood. I am sorry! But look how strong you are now.
One of H's "twists of truth" came to light today and I think it took him by surprise. We moved almost 6 years ago. While house/neighborhood shopping we stopped to visit a good friend of H's. I have never liked their neighborhood, it is very crowded. Anyway, we stopped there and had dinner one weekend while house hunting. They tried to convince us to buy their house because they were planning to move within the year. Their youngest d was graduating high school and the H wanted to retire. We said no, we can't wait a year, need a house now. And life went on. They ended up not moving, their D went to a local college. Anyway, fast forward to BD. One of H's major complaints is that I refused to even consider buying a house in his friend's neighborhood, on and on and on, so much spew about how I was keeping him from his friend, I was socially isolating him, came up several times in MC as well. No recollection that his friend was moving away at the time.
Anyway, yesterday the friend told H that they finally are moving. After all these years of planning to move, this is finally the time. I casually drop "wow, finally, I remember when we were house hunting and they were trying to sell us their house, they have been planning this for a long time." And H casually says "yes, they thought they'd be gone within a year and its been 6." And I said Yes, I remember that." And suddenly he stopped talking and had this "OMG" look on his face.
My childhood was at times a good dream, and at others a waking nightmare. I am resilient, because I had to be. I was the eldest child and looked out for my younger siblings. That's enough on that subject.
Sadly, I realize now why I'm willing to put up with some things. There's a part of me that feels broken, and my life is spent working around that belief. I overcompensate in areas I can because it makes me feel strong.
What a day! I'm ready for the next one.
Judy, we are a lot alike. I am also the eldest sibling, of four. I know how to "keep it together" and take care of people. A lesson learned the hard way, but a good lesson.
Yes, it's true - we seem to have a lot in common. My early years formed me, but in a lot if ways the lessons learned did me a lot of good. I have a lot of empathy and compassion for people. Forgiveness comes relatively easy for me. I have the ability and sheer grit to rise to a lot of truly challenging occasions.
I've enjoyed getting to remember who I am again - flaws and all. I've really enjoyed the newest friendships I've developed here.
One of my biggest areas of growth lately has been learning to heed the advice of other people. I used to act on instinct alone. Not so anymore...very much to my benefit. I just don't think I've had access to as many wise people as I've encountered on this forum.
You're awesome, Photo...Don't forget that.
Thank you Judy. Now why is it that we can see recognize each other's awesomeness, yet our husband's cannot?
We must be missing a piece of the puzzle........
Hope you are having a good weekend. I just had the laziest afternoon which included some good bonding with a new friend, and some great bonding with my D14. Have a great night!
What's this ACE test you guys are taking??
What a exhausting day... I hope tomorrow is better...
Overcom
Google: got your ace score, aces too high.
I like the explanations on this particular site. It doesn't just say aces too high, an na na na. It also says this mitigates and try this to resolve.
Choose a resource with resilience testing as well. This is because although Ace Scores can be high resilience is mitigating. This effectively gives you a 'net' score. Some resilience offsets a high score.
My net score is low because both my ACES and resilience are low.
Extreme self care is upping my resilience.
This might be a good resource for the abuse thread too.
V
H and I are going out for our anniversary tonight. He asked me, he made the plans, so I am not pursuing. I am looking forward to it. I am feeling emotional, but I won't let that make me screw up. I got my hair done, have a cute new dress, and as Overcome keeps reminding me, I will try to smell good (LOL.)
Also, I am looking for upbeat, inspirational non fiction books to read. I am starting with Unbroken, any other ideas? I am thinking biographies, true stories that are action packed or uplifting, anything to expand my mind. Not fiction. I love fiction but I feel like I am getting dumb and want to learn something. Not self-help either, I have a whole self help library now!
Wish me luck on our dinner out, and please send me reading recommendations!
Thank you!
Good luck.
I'm sure you'll look and smell great.
Good luck. I pray it will be a positive evening and you will be able to keep your emotions in check. Have fun.
We had a non eventful evening out. Back home now, getting kids to bed, I don't know what is in store for tonight. H held my hand in the parking lot walking into the restaurant. I could almost feel himself "working up to it". Every time I look at him I just see so much hurt and confusion on his face. It is so sad.
I am not sure if he is truly just screwed up and working out his issues, or if he really and truly hates my guts and is just staying and "trying" out of obligation and for the kids. There is no warmth, no connection. Just this stiff and forced and icy small talk. I am trying not to mind read, but it is so hard. He is still barely communicating with me. Actually, he is improving slightly, but its still not much. He did talk a little during dinner, and we had two "almost" conversations earlier today- very forced but not unpleasant.
Also, he is back to sleeping on the sofa with his cell phone again. Not a good sign. I don't know what to think. He says he isn't leaving, says he isn't talking to OW, says he is "trying" to love me again but "its not easy."
I bought as an anniversary gift the meditation book that I think Mutatio or Asitis recommended? I can't remember who. He really liked it, already read the first chapter. I asked him to consider meditating with S11 because he is having emotional issues, said maybe it could help both of them and also be a good father/son activity. H seemed to like that. I am really trying to be supportive of his emotional growth right now, as I think this is what its all about for him- healing from past hurts and pulling himself together right now. Trying to treat it as a "H" problem rather than a R problem so I don't end up talking about R or expecting too much. He really is going through something that has nothing to do with me (although he still blames me.)
You all know what I wish I could have for our anniversary. Maybe next anniversary.
Good night. Going to put these kids to bed and then making an attempt to get H drunk. LOL. I guess that would be pursuit? I am doing it anyway.
I wish I had tuned into your thread earlier. For whatever reason this post spoke to me. You must be a remarkable person to go to these lengths for him. Your demonstration of compassion and empathy are admirable.
Good luck with the drinks!
You are still in the game. Sorry it was a rough night. The emotional connection can come, but you can't be feeling much emotional connection until the trust is re-built. Same with him. I'm glad he liked the meditation book. Hope it helps all of you.
You just care for yourself right now, and let him care for himself. You're probably getting sick of hearing it, but, patience. You don't know where this will end up any more than he does. Just focus on what is right here now, which is you and your kids and a broken M. You are doing all you can on fixing it, so don't worry about whether that will work or is enough. It is all you can do right now. What you do have some capacity to make a difference is caring for yourself as much as you can. You're doing pretty good on that score, so just keep that as your path.
Hi, I glad it went well. It seems that the evening played out the way one would have expected it. This is a good thing. Small steady steps forward are the way it needs to be done. This way the healing is effective and after all the turtle wins the race. Be well
Last night was traumatic. I put the kids to bed, and H was lying on our bed, half asleep. I asked him if he wanted to talk. He did. H told me how hopeless he feels about everything. I did an excellent job listening and validating. H fell asleep. I was disappointed because of course I was hoping for more, but I at least felt proud of being a good listener and the fact that he opened up to me.
He was asleep, I was in a cute nightie, so I decided I should get up and change into comfy pjs. He woke up while I was changing, got very upset with me for making him feel bad about no sex. Went off on me, lots of spew and negativity, not giving me any benefit of the doubt, just anger. Finally he calmed down and went back to sleep. He woke up at 2:30 am and did it again- spewing at me, telling me that he realizes he is just going to have to accept that he will never have the M he wants, that this is it, that I will never be there for him, that things will never be ok with his mother because of me and my cruelty. I just cried. This went on until about 4 am. I just cried the whole time. With every word that came out of his mouth it was just so obvious that he is extremely depressed.
Things are so twisted, so negative, so dark with him. And always about his mom. He said "My mom doesn't deserve to be demonized". WTF is he talking about? I haven't said a word about his mother in 7 months. Not one word.
I wasn't a very good DB'er at this point. I cried a lot, I told him he was looking at things through depression, and that was changing his perspective. I told him that I loved him and that he was making a choice to make me the enemy and to stay depressed and stuck. I told him he was throwing away my love and our marriage, and he jumped up and yelled at me "Why does it always have to be about you?" It was 2:30 in the morning!
I can't live like this. I am not the enemy. I did not destroy his mother's life. He is so messed up. I am not a mental health professional.
Would it be wrong for me to send an email to his therapist? I should probably just stay out of it and trust her to do her job, right? The depression is just so overwhelming, and there is only so much I can take. What do I do? Part of me wants to ask him to leave, but another part of me believes he is sick and needs to heal in the comfort of home and with his family around him.
As, you are right, I am taking care of myself and my kids. Doing better with both of those things. I walked 3 miles this morning and juiced. Taking my S11 to counseling this afternoon, followed by an eye exam for D. I am trying to find ways- little and big- to connect with each child daily. I am drinking less wine and getting more sleep.
Just wanted to tell you Im here, Im reading, Im listening, but I dont really have any advice for you. Just stay as strong as you can.
I wouldnt interfere with H and H's therapist. Thats not your ballgame.
Im not sure what you can do, but Im thinking of you and hoping for the best. I think your best bet is to stick with the plan you laid out for you and just keep working on it.
Mahhty thank you. Your kind words make me feel better. Although I think I screwed up the second half of the night. I need my sleep! I truly love my H and if you could just see his face you would see what I mean, this man is so depressed.
He just a few minutes ago sent me a text saying "I am sorry."
I responded with " I forgive you. Please do something nice for yourself today, you are important. " I can't cure depression. And I can validate and empathize to a point, but at a certain point it feels really wrong to validate things that are just so not true and so destructive.
Mutatio, you are right, small steps. I expect too much. I hope you are doing well, hope the ice melts for both of us.
Photoka,
Has your husband been evaluated by a psychiatrist? The reason I ask - your husbands behavior is similar to mine. I thought it was severe depression; but it turned out that he had triggered bipolar illness. This is not to say that your husband is mentally ill, but I wonder with the raging, and swinging moods, and the change of behavior if he might be experiencing something other than depression.
I've been where you are. My husband spewed. And spewed. It was the most hateful things anyone has ever said to me. I had ruined his relationship with his parents (my inlaws are exactly like yours - to a "t"), that I made him feel bad about himself, that it was always about me, and never about him. Topped off with a fantastic round of screaming at me, on our wedding anniversary to, "shut the [censored] up for once in your life so I can figure out if I can love you again." It was horrific. A year has passed, and I still hear those words that he screamed at me, echoing in my head late at night.
It isn't fair for you to live like this. Nor is it fair to your kids. And truthfully, it isn't fair to him either. No, you are not the enemy. However, you are the target in which he can deflect his emotions on. And they can hit the target (figuratively) if it isn't there. I think it's time for you both to evaluate a physical separation - because I do believe it will get worse. Being around his family may or may not help him heal. But if he's been with you guys and he's getting worse........
I wouldn't email his therapist unless your H has invited you to have a dialogue with his therapist. That's his safe haven. If you feel in fear for your safety or for his, then I would reach out to her, but be prepared for her not to do much, of anything, with you - due to confidentiality. I wager if you contact the therapist without H's approval, if will seem to him like it's, "always about you", again. You don't need to give him more ammunition.
I will tell you what my therapist told me a few weeks ago. Your husband is ill. (I don't know how ill, but it sounds like he's really, really ill.) You cannot fix him. You cannot make him want to be fixed. You cannot make him be healed at your pace. The reality is, he may not be able to heal himself. Some people lack the ability to proverbially pull themselves up by the bootstraps and deal with life. Sometimes people are too ill to do the work they need to do. Some times they don't want to do the work. The comfort of being a victim outweighs the fear of the unknown work of healing.
It's hard, photoka. It is. The last year of my life, with BD, the separation, my h's mental illness, my impending divorce? It damn near killed me. Literally and figuratively.
Let him go. Look out for yourself and your kids. Do not make his depression your depression. Do not fall victim to his illness. Its not uncommon for the spouses of depressed spouses to become depressed themselves. You cannot save him. Being at home will not fix him. You can however, save yourself. And I hope that you have the the strength to do it.
Calibri, thank you for your post. I am not quite ready yet for a separation, but I am close. I really believe his mother is keeping him sick, I know she is loving the attention he is giving her and loving being in the victim role. It is such a sick dynamic. Every year MIL hosts Thanksgiving. FIL has brought up several times over the last few months that they don't want to host. Last night at dinner I asked H "Is Thanksgiving at your parents again this year?" And he said "Why wouldn't it be?" I said "Your Dad was trying to come up with alternative plans, I thought maybe they wanted to do something different." And H snapped at me "Well its not my Dad's decision, its my Mom's party."
Said with anger that I can't really convey in writing. It is just such a difficult dynamic.
I forgot to add that H has been having nightmares as well, this is new. He wakes up with a yell, and then won't tell me what happened. Then he can't go back to sleep. There is something very wrong with him. And yet I still see "him" in there, that is the heart breaking part of it.
Also, I don't think H is bipolar, it seems like it is all depression. But maybe I am overlooking something? Prior to BD he slept about 4 hours a night, he works non stop, and was running 10 miles +, lifting weights, doing lots of long bike rides, just had non stop energy but I don't think that was mania or maybe it was? Now he sleeps 6-8 hours a night and pretty much just works all of the time.
I think I will need to let him go soon. Calibri, I will read up on your sitch. Thank you for your post.
And now to completely contradict myself. I am thinking, what if I just detach and continue DB'ing. I know I am not where I need to be with detachment. I can be the W who stays by her H while he is going through a major depression. I can detach and be loving and kind and set better boundaries to limit the spew. We were doing much better with the spew, it seems like he can do almost "No contact" or spew- maybe go back to no contact and let him work out his issues with his IC?
Calibri, I am reading your sitch. There are a lot of similarities. Some differences too, my H didn't change overnight, it was triggered over a long struggle with my D's anxiety issues. She had rejected him for an entire year and he couldn't take it anymore. I should have seen it coming, I did actually, but I didn't know what to do, was so busy taking care of D and trying to find help for her. It is very sad how little effective help there really is out there.
I haven't gotten too far into your sitch yet, will continue reading.
I do want to ask you. For my H SSRI's and cymbalta did not work. Any suggestions on meds? He is working with a family dr. but not a psychiatrist.
I know from experience it is very hard to live with a clinically depressed person and not try to help them. If you can do it and continue to detach, I say it's worth a try as long as you are taking care of yourself. Living in that circumstance can be very difficult and draining.
I know my physical and emotional health suffered while I was trying to help my H.
If your H is clinically depressed and getting meds/proper treatment there is only so much progress you will be able to make in the M. As Calibri said, he may not be able to pull himself out of this.
Photoka,
Effexor helped my H quite a bit. He's also on Lamactil for mood issues. No drugs completely took the depression away but he never wanted to the emotional work it takes. Drugs along usually don't cut it.
I recommend trying a psychiatrist.
Hi Photoka,
Knowing what I know now, and didn't know then - it obviously was a long time coming for my H. But he had hidden it very well.
In regards to meds, (also knowing what I know now, and didn't know then) it really is a trial and error finding the right meds. I do know that certain AD's can make mental illnesses worse, as was the case with my H. One of the AD's he was on at the time after BD perpetuated his mania (which doesn't present in him as grandiose thoughts or risky behaviors, but rather severe irritability and rage). At first, I didn't think my H was bipolar, because it wasn't presenting in the way I was used to seeing it. But after really listening to what he was saying, and doing some research, he had all of the symptoms. It took me the better part of two months (from when I stopped updating my sitch - that's when it got extremely bad for him and for me) to talk to him in a manner that he found non confrontational, to get him to a psychiatrist, which led to his diagnosis of Bipolar I. I believe he didn't get diagnosed sooner, because he wasn't presenting the whole story to our family doctor, and his therapist, and that he was calling in asking for AD, rather than being seen in person. It was also worth mentioning that when he went to see the psychiatrist, he realized that something was severely wrong and wanted answers. To this day, I am furious with his therapist for seeing him on a weekly basis for NINE MONTHS and missing the Bipolar diagnosis.
So, I can't really say what will work and what won't, because it truly is unique to each individual. I know with AD's, there's some research that shows that if a family member responds well to an AD, that others will as well. I found this to be true as my mother and I responded well to the same AD, and not well to others.
I am a true believer that meds are only a piece of the puzzle. That they work best in conjunction with a fantastic therapist, a willingness to do the work, and self care. As I've learned, not every therapist is fantastic, nor do people always have a willingness to do the work.
PS - I do not, and am not insinuating that your H is bipolar. I'm just sharing from my experience, that sometimes it can be more than depression. I just know that I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Calibri, I am still reading your sitch. We have so much in common. Looking at irritability and rage as mania does fit.
Also my H, like yours, hides it from everyone but me. Our MC should see it though, it comes out there.
I wish I could just call you! My MC told me that I could email him any concerns I have and he would either keep it secret or use that info if he felt it would benefit our M . He also regularly contacts H's IC. I am thinking of sending him an email. I want to encourage H to see a pyschiatrist. Whether MC suggests it, or H's IC, idk, but I think he needs to be evaluated. I am also concerned that MIL is actively making things worse, she is using his current mental state to "win", to get her hooks into him and get him on her side. She is rehashing things with him from 20 years ago, every perceived wrong doing I have committed, and he is acting like it was all yesterday. Even openly admits "My mother was right all along". My concern is that an IC or even a MC or anybody really would hear "I was disconnected from my parents and have reconnected and talk to them daily now, they really listen to my problems" and would think that this is a great thing. This is not the case. If I say that I sound like the controlling DIL who is trying to keep these poor elderly parents away from their son.
I would hope that an IC would be trained well enough to spot this? But H is a good liar too. And his focus is all on me, his IC probably thinks I am a monster. And maybe I am. I knew my H was losing it. I knew it. And I stood by while he lost it.
That should have said, NOT getting..
I got it Becky!
Been thinking a lot today. And H just called me to tell me he has an opportunity to travel for work for a 6 month period. Might be able to make it home 1 weekend per month during this time. I don't know. My concern is that he will not be taking meds or going to counseling during this time, will probably feel better because he is busy and travelling and not dealing with real life issues, it would be a good escape. Then he will feel better, come home in 6 months and reality will hit him again and we will start this all over.
On the other hand, if he could use this time to really work on his issues, it could be a great blessing. Idk. Financially it would be good for us.
But he has a history of running from his problems. Is this just more of the same? I told him my concerns and he flat out denied that he needs meds. Said "that isn't the problem." So if he is going to avoid the problem here vs. avoid the problem somewhere else, maybe at least the space will be good for the kids and will help me detach. Either way, if he isn't working on himself that is not good.
I really don't know.
That is the classic challenge. People with mental health concerns are the least equipped to recognize and deal with them.
I'm not his doctor but if he does need meds/therapy he will have to recognize it on his own. You can "help" him only so far. It is a very difficult challenge and very heartbreaking.
Are you seeing an IC? I would take about it with him/her.
We are both seeing an IC. He has been for about 5 months. I think in the last 3 weeks or so his therapy got a little intense and has stirred up some anger. He was kind of relaxing a little more before that point. My IC said she would bet money that he was abused between the ages of 10-12 and he is emotionally stalled at that stage of development. I think she is right.
He likes his therapist, and he plans to continue unless he takes the job and then he will be travelling all the time for 6 months.
I could use the break tbh. But I am scared he will not come home.
Sounds like my H. When therapy got hard or real he bailed.
I wonder if his IC would do something ov er the phone.
Maybe this would be the ultimate in given him space. But I understand your fear about him stopping IC.
Sending you hugs sister, be strong.
Stay out of it. Don't assume that his spew and hopelessness statements mean what you think. If he were done and without hope, he wouldn't be reacting the way he did to you. See what I just posted in mutatio's thread for some more on that.
All that said, I'd back way off on the trying to rekindle the R, esp. the sex (not that I don't appreciate your efforts on behalf of all heterosexual men everywhere and wouldn't have slapped his sorry a$$ around for being a dipsh*t if I had been there - well, I probably would have ... not going there). I think you are getting some mixed signals from him, and are being overly hopeful that you've entered the friends stage or even the patching stage. It is clear from his behavior that you have not yet. Focus on your DBing. Keep giving him his space and interact like it is a friendly business arrangement. You did great by showing him that it was safe to express his feelings. You did great to respond rather than react.
So, don't read this as a setback. It may just be part of the storm that needs to precede you getting to that friends stage. And from there you might work a while & get to the patching/rekindling stage. Just understand that you are disappointed - naturally - that you aren't getting the messages you'd expect in those two stages rather than seeing that you are doing mostly great DBing (you'll adjust the seduction according to the message you got), and that this conflictual, stormy (again see the post in mutatio's thread) reaction by him isn't necessarily a bad thing.
He is feeling hopeless because he really wants what you have to offer but doesn't think he can trust that it really is there for him. It is too good to be true. Very normal reaction on his part. Dysfunctional, but normal. He is angry because you are not behaving according to script and this scares him. He may very well be unconsciously trying to provoke you to go back on the script he has written for you. He'll have to work through all this (unfortunately he also could not be able to). Not making a big deal of this is great on your part. You get that it's hard for him right now. You get that in situations like this anger is going to be part of what he needs to feel - he is asking for a D after all, so what else would you expect. You don't agree with him (keep that to yourself), but you get him, and you're OK with that - at least mostly. That's why the detachment and GAL are so critical. Your life goes on and he is free to deal w/ his own sh*t as much as he needs to.
So, don't get discouraged. Not what you wanted. I'm right there with you on that, having recently had my good behavior trigger a similar reaction from my W. The key is to look at how well you handled that. You really did. You listened. You calmed the storm rather than escalated it. You treated it as 'no big deal,' even if it wasn't - you'll eventually have to re-engage drawing lines about what is a big deal, but pragmatically you did it just right. You returned love and understanding to his anger and rejection. That hurts and is hard, but just stop and recognize how far you've developed your R skills and how good you did.
Hang in there. I'm so glad my nearest anniversary is a few months in the rear view mirror, and I won't face another for 9+ months.
Mahhty thank you. Your kind words make me feel better. Although I think I screwed up the second half of the night. I need my sleep! I truly love my H and if you could just see his face you would see what I mean, this man is so depressed.
He just a few minutes ago sent me a text saying "I am sorry."
I responded with " I forgive you. Please do something nice for yourself today, you are important. " I can't cure depression. And I can validate and empathize to a point, but at a certain point it feels really wrong to validate things that are just so not true and so destructive.
There is a tone in your responses I wish I had and could relate with. I believe it is compassion. You are very smart and strong. I hope you understand that.
As for Calibris comments. If a mental health disorder is apparent. you will need different tactics than MWD and Sandis Rules to improve the situation.
Asitis made several really good points, but the one that resonated with me most was regarding H being annoyed because you are not following the script he wrote for you. I experienced the same thing in my situation.
I have a vague idea of what H thought would happen at BD, and it frustrated him greatly that I didn't do what he planned. At this point, I surprise him almost daily. However he'd managed to serotype me with his justifications is at odds with my behavior and choices daily. It's really knocking him off balance. Sometimes he exhibits pleased surprise, other times he gets truly annoyed.
It makes me sad. When did we put one another in a box and fail to see anything that didn't fit with our preconceived viewpoints? I'm as guilty as he is in this regard. I don't have a script, but I thought I knew him so well I could predict every action he would ever take. Didn't he surprise me?
I know you worry about your H, but I'm pretty sure you can't help much right now, in spite of your sweet heart and loving desire to help. Your H has painted you as the villain in this little drama. I want to drive over there and shake some sense into him! Depression is so extremely difficult to manage. It took one giant explosion to knock me out of mine and back into awareness. I thought I was fine, too.
It makes me sad. When did we put one another in a box and fail to see anything that didn't fit with our preconceived viewpoints? I'm as guilty as he is in this regard. I don't have a script, but I thought I knew him so well I could predict every action he would ever take. Didn't he surprise me?
I know you worry about your H, but I'm pretty sure you can't help much right now, in spite of your sweet heart and loving desire to help. Your H has painted you as the villain in this little drama. I want to drive over there and shake some sense into him! Depression is so extremely difficult to manage. It took one giant explosion to knock me out of mine and back into awareness. I thought I was fine, too.
Yes. In all long-term Rs, we all are guilty of placing our SOs in a box and getting at least irritated when they won't stay there.
You H has to travel his own path if he is ever going to be able to get back in a healthy R with your. Can you let him? You deal w/ yourself. Let him take responsibility for his own issues.
Wow, so much good advice and support. This forum is 100x better than IC or MC. I am going out now, dropping boys off at school and then off for my 3 mile walk. I will be back to read and reread your wonderful posts. Sometimes it takes a while for the words to sink in.
I don't want him to go. But I need to let him. I know I can manage on my own, and I do think it would be better for the kids.
Still going back and forth in my mind about whether I want him to go or stay. I guess I will stay out of it and leave it up to him. Either way I will continue to DB.
My concern, besides him not getting help, is that if he leaves, the one weekend a month he comes home to visit will really be a big stressor for me. I will feel so much pressure to be perfect that weekend, and on top of that I am absolutely sure his parents will decide they need to be here that weekend (I am willing to bet almost every month) and also the kids will need to catch up with him. So those weekends will be loaded with potential problems.
OK, trying not to think about it. Its his choice. I wouldn't be able to leave my kids for 6 months. Doesn't seem to bother him. I don't mean to sound judgmental, but he is really not attached to any of us.
I just had a good talk with a friend about H possibly leaving for 6 months. She was excited for me! When I tried to talk about , what if he doesn't come back, what if he doesn't get help, etc etc, she said "He says he doesn't love you. He says you are not the woman he wants to be with. He doesn't talk to you. He does not help with the kids, or around the house. He is not getting along w D. Let him go! If he doesn't come back then why would you want him back?"
I don't know why it is so hard for me to see it, it is an obvious choice. I am letting him go. I need to focus on my children, get the 2 stressed out ones better. I can quiet down my GAL and not feel like I am running all the time trying to escape. I can relax at home, and not worry about my every word or hand gesture being misunderstood.
And, although I hope it doesn't come to this, it would have to look good for me if it comes to a custody decision- if he chose to leave for 6 months. Will reinforce that I am the primary parent, he does NOTHING with the kids. He has only been doing more lately because I am out all the time for GAL, but even so he pretty much works on his laptop and just tells them when to go to bed. More like supervising them, not really interacting with them. And he is clashing so much with my D.
Also my friend told me to encourage him to leave. Don't be wimpy and say "I want you here, I am scared you won't come back." She said to convey strength and confidence and that alone might be a wake up call to H because right now he thinks he can get away with anything.
Perfect. Sometimes it takes friend to just lay it out for us.
Now if I can just get her to do the talking for me! She will tell him. She was actually going to call him last week and tell him that he is going to lose me if he keeps it up. I asked her to stand down. I love my friends! But nobody except this forum understands the DB approach. Even my IC. Everyone thinks I should speak my mind, go to war with MIL, set up stronger boundaries. Nobody gets my seemingly hands off approach.
Be wary of friends and family. They don't understand what you are trying to do and the measures you are taking. They want you to be happy at any cost, and it is usually quick happiness that they want for you (which is mostly to forget and move on).
Even my IC. Everyone thinks I should speak my mind, go to war with MIL, set up stronger boundaries.
How are these things going to possibly give any benefit to you? What are you going to say...."Love me or else Im leaving?"
Not sure how thats going to help!
Stick with us, PK!
By the way, I am keeping up with you, and I was heartbroken by your recount of your anniversary. I feel your pain, and I continue to appreciate the strength you are showing in this time of adversity.
Glad to hear that you have support in the "real world" too pho. They do have your best interest in mind. Just not always the best life experience to go with it.
You are doing awesome. Good luck!
Hi photoka,
When my husband left, it was actually a relief. I had been walking on egg shells and he had been so depressed and miserable to deal with, just coming and going as he pleased.
The only thing is I don't know if you should actually come out and say to him that you want him to leave because that might come back to you legally. I think it will look better for you if he is the one to make that decision.
Most of my friends and family are the same way. I have one friend that gets it. But if I'm drawing healthy boundaries they can,say what they want. They just don't want to see us hurt.
They don't get it, but they do have a point.
Random thoughts going through my head today. We have MC tomorrow. Going to discuss the possibility of H taking the travel job for 6 months.
1. How do I act about this? Confident, matter of fact, he should do what he needs to do? Should I express concern that he should be using this time to work on his issues? Do I ask that we set ground rules- like no dating during this time?
2. Considering the fact that my H is really more like a W. I am in the "friend" zone. I don't want to be his friend. How does a woman do this? I am really nice to him, it goes unnoticed. I am very supportive, again unnoticed. I flirt, make bids for physical attention, all goes unnoticed. Or noticed but ignored. (If I make a very overt sexual advance he will respond. Hope this isn't tmi, just trying to get the right advice. )
This even goes back to pre-BD, he was always like this. This is why my IC thinks he was abused- he is extremely passive and non-sexual and shut down emotionally.
So, I am thinking of fine tuning my DB with the approach that H is actually a woman. How do I do this?
Random thoughts going through my head today. We have MC tomorrow. Going to discuss the possibility of H taking the travel job for 6 months.
1. How do I act about this? Confident, matter of fact, he should do what he needs to do? Should I express concern that he should be using this time to work on his issues? Do I ask that we set ground rules- like no dating during this time?
I would just say that you encourage him to do what's best for him. AS for setting ground rules, one would think being married would be a rule for not having an OW/OP but......
You can set all the rules you want, but that doesn't mean they'll be followed. When my stbx and I split, I asked that we not date while legally married (and because I thought we were working on things), and he agreed (and then was caught on Tinder and having a flirtation with a girl on FB, but I digress). It was important to me and I know I followed it on my end, and have to go on the honor system that he trusted it on his end.
I think unless you both mutually bring up rules, it might be worth discussing. However, I believe if you ask for rules you set yourself up for looking controlling.
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I saw that you were wondering out loud if he took this job what would it mean, and worrying about how he would seek IC. I know your heart is in the right place - but he's a big boy. He has to be free to do his own things. Take the job or not. Do IC or not. You can worry, yes, but it's truly on him.
I agree with what your friend said. If your H doesn't think you're the sun and the moon - then why would you want them there? My therapist has a great saying, that I've now adopted. "In life and love, I take no hostages." I couldn't agree more. People in my life can choose to be there, or they can't. But I'm not going to pressure them to stay. It doesn't get me anywhere, and it makes them feel devalued in a way.
Set them free. Set yourself free. Free yourself from expectations and then see what happens. Whatever it may be.
1. How do I act about this? Confident, matter of fact, he should do what he needs to do? Should I express concern that he should be using this time to work on his issues? Do I ask that we set ground rules- like no dating during this time?
It seems to me that you are still pushing him. You are not his mother who tells him what he needs to be working on, right?
My advice is not to show how you feel toward him leaving. As for the ground rules.....don't you think he would find it almost amusing? If the guy is in or has been in an EA, or whatever, you setting ground rules will only apply to "you", in his opinion. As a former WW, I can tell you that it would be much better for him to realize you are not home "grounded", any more than he is.
The man is not committed to the M. You can't force him. He is leaving for six months? Who will be doing the calling, checking in, encouraging, etc? If it's you.....then nothing has changed and you'll still be pursuing. I strongly advise you to use this time to pull back. Let him contact
you. If he doesn't, then don't freak out and call him. You have to do this, Photoka. After six months, you could have a better perspective of what you really want for your life. And, if you would really let him go....he would sense it and decide he wants you.
Thank you Sandi. You are right. I will be strong and project confidence and neutrality about his decision. He will do what he wants.
And the more I think about it, the better I actually do feel about it so its not all an act. I am emotional about it, but I can see actually letting go and I will be ok. You all might have to talk me through it when the time comes.
I agree w/ Sandi2: you are trying to control him and he won't take your advice well no matter what it is. Why not just say that you know it is a tough decision for him and that you appreciate that he is considering the well-being of the family in his calculus. You recognize that this really needs to be his decision, and that you want him to be free to make the choice that he thinks is best.
He won't be expecting that. Even if he isn't thinking much of the impact on the family, he's more likely to do this if you show appreciation that he is at least doing some of it. You aren't trying argue that he should stay, and that you don't really have a horse in this race. This is all him, and you get that, and want him to choose what is best (you don't say for whom, leave that up to him).
Who knows, he may actually rise to the occasion and actually consider the best for the family for a change (although that might be to take the job).
You actually are ambivalent about this. You could tell him you are, or you could tell him you don't care, but I wouldn't go down that path, as he'll start looking for the trick, even if there isn't one.
Don't go to war w/ the MiL. Don't worry too much about him and his decisions. You know what the path is unless something significant changes. So, give that change a chance by leaving him to make his choice and you focus on your choices.
Easier said than done, and I know it is painful even if you are ambivalent. But you can detach and just give him responsibility for himself.
Calibri, I always heard that saying "In life and love I take no hostages" and I thought it meant something completely different! LOL. I was way off the mark.
Thank you. I am absorbing all of the advice I am getting here. You are right, everyone is right. We have MC tonight to discuss the job offer. I am going to read and reread everyone's advice before I go. Thank you all for being my rock. I will pray and walk and get myself in a good frame of mind before walking in there, so my emotions don't take over.
Back from MC. I was calm and very non-controlling and neutral. H is going to put in for the job. I am going to proceed as planned, find a job, focus on the kids and self development, H will do whatever he decides he needs to do, we will see what happens.
I am sad and relieved and stressed all at once. Its not definite yet, and we don't know the start date.
I wanted to add: Thank you for all of the responses and advice. I read and reread all of your posts before counseling tonight, and I walked in there very calm and non-emotional. Detached or faking it. I do see the positives in this situation, and I will choose to focus on them instead of the negatives. Better yet, trying not to focus on it at all, and focus on my self and my kids.
I know this is a pointless question, but what the heck happened to my life?
I know this is a pointless question, but what the heck happened to my life?
When you figure it out, can you tell me what happened to mine?
Glad MC went well enough. You never know what may come of all of this. Sounds like you've got a good attitude about it all. Just keep going forward.
I think about my life all the time. It is you always had a life but you also always had your family as motivation or in theback of your mind. I know this how I feel. Even when doing gal I have moments when wife floods my mind.
I know I can get it back. So can you.
I don't know P & Az, both of your lives seem to be going pretty well except for this one "little" area. You are both more alive than you were before doing all the hard work since BD. You are stronger and more independent. You've found some ways outside your Ms to attend to your happiness. You've learned a whole lot of good relationship skills - patience, not needing to win, listening rather than talking, etc. You both seem happier than I suspect you were when you just thought everything was OK and you "had your life." Of course, the M troubles are destabilizing and upsetting, but you both seem to be learning how to navigate that world really well.
You might trade that all in for a restoration, but your M was gone long before you learned that it was gone & your world turned upside down. Before you learned that you M was bad & your S angry and unhappy, did you know your life? Really? I'd say you know your life better now than you did then (just an observation). The difference isn't the reality, then. It's the perception of your subjective reality that is you have lost your life.
I read this quote and like it:
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."
You are all wonderful friends to me. Better to me than my own H has been in a very, very long time. That should tell me something.
Thank you. Going to bed now, need my sleep for a busy day tomorrow.
I know this is a pointless question, but what the heck happened to my life?
You know, it's a fair question.
This morning I was dropping my children off at school. I had to say "see you next week". Every time I have to say this I get filled with rage.
No, I cannot change the world. So you could say 'just learn to accept this'. But some things are unacceptable. I accept them because I have no choice, not because they are ok.
It reminds me of watching movies of slaves in Colonial days. When a family would be split up and there was nothing they could do about it. They would be furious at the slave owners, but they couldn't change the world they lived in. They had to find a balance between accepting an outrage and living their lives filled with hatred which wasn't honoring what God had given them. Not easy. Now I'm not comparing the two, I'm really not. Only looking for inspiration on how to accept things I think are unacceptable while still appreciating what I've been given. Because I truly do think courts swinging gavels and stamping off on paperwork that splits up families is a horror. I don't know that I have a better alternative. I think the WAS should have to walk, and the LBS should get the kids. You could say that's not as good for the kids, but it might be if it kept the WAS from making that decision. I don't know. All I know is this whole thing is disgusting and outrageous and it's like society acts like it's normal. MARK MY WORDS: Time travel 100 years into the future and this divorce epidemic will be by and large behind us and people of 2115 will think it was the worst thing in our century. So I will speak up to cast my vote, to influence those I can, and to be heard, so I can put it aside and enjoy the time I do have with my family and what's been left behind.
Zeus, I agree with you, the LBS should get the kids. If there is no abuse, drug abuse, untreated mental illness, the LBS should get the kids because we have honored our commitment. My SIL told me that if/when H does file for D that my IL's are going to buy a house in my town so that H can move in with them and get 50% custody so that they can be the ones raising my kids. Because they hate me.
I don't want to keep my kids from their dad, but I don't want to lose them. At all. I want them with me 100% of the time. Ok maybe 95% LOL.
It is a heartbreaking situation. And I still love my H, so that makes it even harder. I want him. I want my kids. I hope you are right about divorce in the future, Z.
I think that will be an issue to raise in MC, as it is definitely not a good environment for the kids. [asid- Start recording or at least writing down such discussion with date, place, and time. This is all a record to hand you your L when the time comes.] And, your H needs to know that he is poisoning the water in a way that will impact the kids. If your MC has any understanding of the impact on kids (and some don't unfortunately), he/she should go to the mat to make sure your H gets this.
We know in the aggregate, kids do best joint custody arrangements than they do in single custody w/ visitation for the other parent. There are exceptions, of course. But the main large, well done study shows this fairly conclusively. Of course you don't want to be a half-time parent, but in this case it is your wants versus what's best for the kids. I know which one you'll take,even if it is hard to swallow.
So, read up on how to handle kids in a divorce so you can help educate your H on how there has to be no venting about S/exS in front of the kids, no encouraging them to take sides, not poisoning the water. It really is harmful to the kids. They love both their parents - unless there is outright abuse,and even then...
Sorry you have that struggle on topof everything.
Zues,
I like your prediction of the future. I hope you are right and that is the way things go. Not to long ago I was wondering if the complete opposite would happen.
I agree 100 percent that LBS should get the children. WAS is not thinking of what is best for kids when they walk away. WAS walked away because they are too weak to handle something they have committed to. It takes them a while, but eventually they figure out that their children really are important (something LBS alway recognized). Or perhaps they realize child support is a drain, and it will be easier for them to just take the kids after all. Hey hire some teenage babysitter so you don't have to pay your ex !
WAS made their choice and they should have consequences. Yes visitation is reasonable. Beyond that, I disagree. You can't just commit to having children and then take them away 50% of the time because your incapable of working on a relationship.
I don't think its in the best interest for the kids to be raised by a parent that is quite frankly, that selfish. I think it sets a bad example. I don't think holidays should be divided out. Why should I be responsible for all the daily grind and then WAS gets to experience waking up with them Christmas morning to see them Open presents? It sends mixed messages to the kids.
I feel like you can use research to make a case for anything, especially in the field of psychology. Heck, you can just use a different statistical method and you will have a different answer. Children need stability plain and simple. That is what is in their best interest. WAS has already proved they are not stable and certainly not reliable.
This could be a very long emotional topic for me. My H has not acted in the best interests of our children in a long time. Just 2 days ago, I told him "I met with S11's speech therapist today." He didn't look up from his laptop, just said "oh." Not "oh?" like a question, just a flat "oh." I stood there for a few seconds and then walked away. He has no idea what is going on and he is not interested. This is a very innocent example, I could give you dozens. Times when he left the kids alone to see OW. Times when he told D that he hated her. He is out for his own interests right now.
I love the Serenity Prayer (and yes there are different versions of it!)
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I can not change
Courage to change the things I can
and
The Wisdom to know the difference.
----------------------------------
That is why I say to you, be a leader in your life and family, and let go of the outcome.
Let go of R and M, concentrate on leading you and change for you to become who you are meant to be.
Trust WH higher power to guide him, eventually.
Know this when he is ranting at you, he is saying his thoughts about himself. If he says you vilified MIL, it is himself in his own mind who struggles because of it. His rants are about himself.
I believe you do need stronger boundaries, I eventually learned to say "I will not be abused". Then "stop", and "enough" and "I do not agree with you".
It took a long time to learn, if WH increases the ranting as you impose your boundaries, then STFU and get away.
Further, record it and keep it. Play it to your IC.
MC will not work with an abuser, they may try to triangulate with the MC.
Yes, WH may have childhood abuse issues, may be struggling and that does not give him permission to rant at you.
There is a technique that I researched and it arises from business called blame storming. There are a couple of books which include that word in the title that are useful. Try the talkative man for discussions around work issues.
I sense there are still a couple of poor thought patterns kicking about here, a source I found useful was The Usual Error, which is a free ebook, written very simply on thinking modes and observing thought patterns.
It looks to me as if any flooding is under control, which is excellent. You can validate the way WH feels even if you dont agree why, as in "I acknowledge you feel MIL has had a tough time, what can we do?". Then you will have INTEL.
V
V, you are awesome. You should really be charging people for advice, it is worth a lot! You are right, flooding is under control. I didn't even realize it, but it is.
I definitely believe that when he rants about me it is really about himself. Some of the things he has said have been so outrageous, that there could really be no way they were about me. I have stopped taking them personally, however I do get a very strong sense of overwhelming hopelessness when he talks. I just want to get away, especially when he talks about his mother.
I will check out those books. Thank you.
I started a new thread. This time spelled correctly, my typo in the subject line was annoying me, so glad to let it go.
Welcome
You can change the title every post if you want. This means that on post two you can change the tread to thread if you want.
Personally I thought it was deliberate and rather clever. Tread, so next thread it can be walk, then skip then bounce then fly.
V
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2613583#Post2613583