I have not posted in a while. I had my prior threads deleted because I thought WW might have found the board. I will try to keep things a little more generic this time around.
So my sitch goes like this. I have been married a decade. WW is having an EA and possible PA. When I found out I did the normal begging crying and pleading. I wrote letters, tried to reason, went to church, bought gifts. I basically was the poster child of not what to do.
Right now WW is as nasty as the devil. She will do anything to keep the kids from me. She blames me for everything and lets everyone know it. She does not admit to her family or friends that the EA is serious even though she wants the OM to move near her and wants everyone to meet him.--She has literally lost all logic and reason.
Prior to all of this she was the nicest most moral person you would come by. She loved me and her children and would do anything to keep it together. Well the switch has obviously flipped.
We have had a temporary custody hearing and financial hearing. Now it is all about the divorce.
Currently my biggest issue is that WW is doing everything possible to ensure I do not see my kids. If she goes out of town she leaves them with her mother or takes them out of school to go with her. She will not allow them to play sports because I am the coach.
I am at the point now that I just want to get the divorce over with and move on with my life. WW has burned too many bridges and I honestly do not believe I will ever trust her again.
Sorry to hear what is happening with your kids. Can't a L sort out you having them when W is away?
Hey Rouky,
The courts will eventually get it figured out. Right now we have temporary orders. Unless she does something really bad like harm the kids physically or deny me seeing them during my official times the court will not step in. In fact, they will most likely just be irritated. My L is aware of what is going on and I am documenting everything that she does.
Any reasonable judge will not be happy with the way she has handled things. The last thing our judge told us was to work together for the kids.
WW is in another world right now. Her only goal in life is to irritate me and make herself happy. The well-being of the kids is way down her list of things to accomplish at this time in her life.
The only thing I can do is ride out the storm until we have our final day in court. Hopefully the less I show I am irritated the less harm she will do to the children.
I have not posted about this on my thread my but I came to the realization while trying to help Spinning Jenney that I have some compulsive tendencies. This includes things like having to have stuff cleaned a certain way, leaving lights on or doors cracked open at night, folding clothes a certain way...
Over time I would get irritated and even think WW was trying to bother me by not doing things how I liked. She mentioned in therapy that she always felt like she was walking on egg shells. I am not saying this is the root of all of our issues but it is something that I have identified about myself that I want to change.
I spoke to IC today about it. She said some of the stuff I mentioned was actually normal. She asked me if I was ritualistic about things. She gave an example of tapping the sugar spoon twice every time I put it in the coffee (tea for the UK folks). I do not have that type of behavior so she did not seem overly concerned.
I told her that I felt like I should not get upset about such little things. They don't matter in the grand scheme. I told her that I want to change this about myself for my next relationship or this one it pans out. I also want to change it for my children. I do not want them to feel like they are waling on egg shells.
Anyway, just one more day of working on myself.
WW doing some different things today. She reactivated her facebook account. She started calling S19 on her new phone that she apparently was trying to hide the number from me. She knows I will see it on the call log. Then she reached out to some close friends that have been supporting me. Said she wants to meet with them.
The last time she texted them they said that they wanted the 4 of us to get together and work things out. They said we can cry together, talk together, and heal together. WW's response was that it was much more complicated than that and she has been drowning for a long time and needed to get out of a bad situation.
The friends have been irritated with the way she has handled this, particularly with the children. It will be interesting to see what happens. My guess is that she will be trying to convince them that I am a bad guy and she had to save herself and the children from me. The positive thinking would be that maybe she is reaching out to them in hopes of having her mind changed and having someone to support her in that.
We shall see this weekend I guess.
Well, received an email from WW today as well. She is apparently on a mission today. Unfortunately the email was bad and contained a bunch of what people are calling spew.
I started to respond three different times but resisted after writing it out everytime. Im not going to respond at all. Nothing positive will come of it. The only upside is that at least there is some form of effort to reach me on her part.
I mean I think that is better than nothing at all right? Who knows?
Way to be strong and not respond. I know that was hard. Stay strong
Thanks epo,
I'm trying. It's hard not knowing what works and what doesn't. The hardest part is my innocent little girls being in the middle of this. When we got married we both were on the same page regarding our children. In fact, it is the one thing we have always had. Now, we are worlds apart. So tough not to act on emotion when kids are involved.
Journaling,
WW dropped the bomb just over 4 months ago. She moved out just over 3 months ago. I am amazed at how far I have come emotionally. In the beginning I was begging, crying, pleading and not eating. I lost 30lbs in two months. I just could not understand. I turned down a promotion at work that I had been trying to get for over the last 3 years. I could barely do my work. Thankfully I had an understanding supervisor. TO put it lightly, I was a wreck.
These days I am doing much better. I have made new friends and caught up with old friends. I have gone to new places in the city. I have gone out on the town at night. I have put on 6lbs. I have started training for a 1/2 marathon. I have spent more time with my family in the last 3 months than the last 3 years combined. I have started flirting with girls. I have been a much more involved father. I started going back to church and have taken my girls to church. I am doing better at work.
I'm not where I need to be yet, but I have made progress. I still have not found my purpose in life...my own road so to speak. I still need to get more involved in other activities so that I can move on. I don't think about WW as much. I have accepted that I have no control over the outcome of our M. I have accepted that she is lost and I can not give her a map to find her way home. I do get irritated with her regarding the children. I don't really even think about the OM at all. All-in-all my life has improved significantly from those first two months.
Those were the hardest days of my life and I would not wish them on anyone. For those of you just starting this journey, rest assured it does get better. I do not know if WW will ever be M with me again. To be honest, I don't think I am ready for a relationship right now, not even with her. I have to get healthy again. In the future if I find WW is the person for me then I will go that direction. It will be a new R and a new M. Of course, with children in the mix she has a leg up on the rest of the field.
That is all for now...
Whyus,
It sounds like you are doing great. You are right, the first 3 months I was a wreck too. I also lost 30lbs and couldn't stop crying. Its tough to let go and get over the guilt of failing at M. By far those first months after BD were the hardest times of my life. I still don't know how I got through it.
I am doing better as well but still have a long way to go. I still struggle with guilt about everything. I never thought this would happen to me. I hate to admit it but while writing this I am tearing up. Just the gravity of it all is so overwhelming.
Thanks you for the many posts and replies. I don't think I would have got this far without the site.
Keep it up.
30lbs must be the magic number! I went from an athletic 190, down to a scrawny 160! I'm glad you are doing well buddy! I myself seem to be on about the same path as you. Getting easier, not giving up as much head space (even though it comes and goes), working on finding yourself... As weird as it feels going down this road alone, we are both growing as people. Worrying about the kids involved and number 1. If something comes of an R with the X, so be it. But if not we are better people because of the path we took!
Yea well I needed to loose some weight but not as much as I have. Things are kind of leveling off now but I went days without eating in the beginning.
I also went days on nothing but energy drinks and water. To the point I felt so weak I couldn't hardly move! It went on for so long that when I did get somewhat of an appetite back, just the taste of food would make me sick. I still don't eat as good as I should, lots of junk food, but I see it as better than nothing right? I've put on about 5 lbs but no matter how much I try to gain at least some of that weight back it doesn't stick yet.
I tell people I have a great diet to lose 30lbs that requires no pills, excersise, calorie counting, or healthy food. It takes two months. It is will be the hardest thing you have ever done but it is guaranteed to work. There is only one condition, you have to get your spouse to agree.
I need an infomercial and I will be rich.
Can a girl jump in here? The Divorce diet works! I really needed to lose weight, and not being able to eat for such a long time really helped me learn smaller portions. That's really a good thing for me. The Drs are all proud at first...then greatly alarmed at my blood pressure. Not much I can do there..lol Just keep breathing - long, deep breaths.
Looks like I have several testimonials. I'm ready to take this show on the road.
It looks like I am headed towards bankruptcy. WW ran up about $30,000 in credit card debt over the last 6 months we were together in my name. The temp financial order has me paying all of it. There is no way I can keep paying for the house, cars and consumer debt while also paying child support.
Man this is frustrating. I have always had perfect credit. I've never been a day late on a payment in my life.
Oh boy, that's a lot of debt. Are you jointly liable for it if she has done all of the spending in an irresponsible way? Have you talked to your L about what this means? Can any of the debt be recouped in any way....selling off some substantial items and so on?
I'm so sorry this has happened my friend ((((whyus))))
We are jointly liable since it is marital debt. The problem is that we will be under a temporary order for a while. We own a business together and the settlement of that is going to drag this divorce out for a while. My attorney said to plan on at least a year at the rate things are going right now.
We really do not have anything to sell. The house I live in would break even if I sold it. I wish she would just be responsible and help pay the debt.
In the last two months she has opened a card in her name and already ran up $8,000 in debt. Funny thing is her mother wrote an affidavit saying that she was frugal. She even said that she had a cheap wedding in order to save money. Check this out...we had a destination wedding on an Island and rented out two houses. lol Cheap by their standards I guess. Her family lives in La La Land when it comes to money.
They also do not have a problem with not paying their debts. She had five accounts in collections when we married her. That was a shock to say the least. I paid off all of them. That should have been a sign of things to come. I just always wrote it off as her being absent minded instead of irresponsible or unethical.
Major Shift in mindset recently,
Over the past few days I have had this major shift in my mindset. For the last several months I have gradually moved from thinking life without WW was impossible. I am gradually starting to realize I will be okay.
I am not as hung up on losing the friends and her family as I was before. I am learning that I can find someone with my same values. WW and I currently do not have the same values.
It is weird. I feel liberated. I don't know if this is what detaching feels like when it is natural. For a while I have been faking the detaching. (you know, "fake it until you make it"). That is really difficult because the emotions are still there. Everyday that goes by WW has less and less of an impact on my emotional well-being.
Today I was thinking about life before WW. I was very confident. I had my SHXT together. In fact, I have always had my SHXT together until this all went down. I will be fine. WW on the other hand, well if she does not make some big changes, is going to have some real problems. She had them before me, with me, and will have them after me. But guess what...they are not my problems anymore.
I'm still going to be nice. I will lead by example on how a co-parenting relationship works. Right now my kids are going to get one heck of a dad. I'm ready to move past all this. If WW wants reconciliation in the future she will have to come to the table with something to offer.
She will need to respect me, love me, and admire me. I will not accept anything less. I will not be forced to do things I am not comfortable with. I will not compromise my values for her.
Man I feel good right now.
Whyus, sounds like you are on the right path! Keep it up. All of you guys are an inspiration to me, I like seeing the small victories, and love seeing the M that work out. Pulling for you man!
Can you have a detailed statement of the card with the debts? Can you use it to show that some of the debts were her own? Maybe expensive clothes, make up, spa! Can you not find a way not to be responsible for it?
Sorry to be a bit brutal but from what I have read your W always had someone to pay for her, maybe it's time for her to face her responsabilities. I use to fill up our joint account when the money was tight ( to my expense as I was the one ended up with financial difficulties), since my H is gone the joint account as well as mine have been pretty healthy. From what I know H is regularly in a difficult financial situation, so now he is learning that I am not the cause of his financial difficulty ( like he used to blame me for having no money).
Can you disociate your name from the credit card? Do it ASAP if you can.
I'm really sorry that you are in this situation, it's no longer about your love for her but about you having a roof over your head, being able to put some food on the table, and offering security to your kids.
So i spent time with S19 last night. We eventually spoke about WW and the sitch. I told him I was in a place where I was ready to move on. I told him I deserve someone who cares about me. We talked for a while and he mainly listened which is normal for him. It still makes me uncomfortable when he does not seem to agree or disagree on things.
One thing that bothered me was that he said BIL saw me jogging the ofher day with my shirt off. He said BIL was making fun of me for not wearing a shirt. The only time he sees BIL is when the family is together. So he was saying negative stuff about me around everyone. I have always respected BIL. He has mostly had a level head through this ordeal.
Anyways, it started to eat at me a little. Affer a whiIe I went to S19 and told him that in the future if WW or her family say something negative about me I do not want to hear about it. I told him it is not worth my head space.
One thing about not wearing my shirt. WW's family is mostly over weight. A tually WW is the only one that is not over weight. Even at the beach or pool they wear a shirt. I grew up on the coast, I never wore a shirt in the summer. My family is mostly athletic with toned bodies. We did not wear shirts around the house much less if we were jogging. When we first got married WW made a comment about me not wearing a shirt around the house or when I cut the lawn. I thought is was strange she even cared so I just started wearing it more. Anyways, just one of those differences in how we were brought up I guess. Now I guess it is joke worthy.
Rouky,
I can itemize the statements and show what she spent the money on. I will not have a problem doing that. I can't take my name off of the cards. I have changed all the numbers so she can not use them. The sad part is that she is just an authorized user. Her credit is not actually tied to the cards.
You are right that WW has always had someone to pay for her. Her parents have always bailed her out. She really has no idea what it means to be responsible with money. For the first time since we have been married she is in charge or her own budget. She opened up a credit card two months ago and has already run up $8,000. She really is clueless when it comes to money. She has already missed two student loan payments and two credit card payments.
I guess she will have to learn the hard way.
Those were the hardest days of my life and I would not wish them on anyone. For those of you just starting this journey, rest assured it does get better. I do not know if WW will ever be M with me again.
this is where i am, the hardest point of separation. She left 2 weeks ago. After i catered to her every need. I come home and i cry every single time. I havent had a bite in 2 days.
Sounds like you're really doing well, W! I'm so happy for you.
It looks like I am headed towards bankruptcy. WW ran up about $30,000 in credit card debt over the last 6 months we were together in my name. The temp financial order has me paying all of it. There is no way I can keep paying for the house, cars and consumer debt while also paying child support.
Man this is frustrating. I have always had perfect credit. I've never been a day late on a payment in my life.
I have a couple of ideas. will post on our joint thread.
Additionally if you want, you can ask Cadet to rebook the thread to V to keep it safe. My WH is the same. I too have large credit card debt attributable to WH.
V
V, I will look for you post.
JudyL, thanks for checking in. I am doing much better these days. Hopefully it will remain that way on this roller coaster.
angel r, sorry you are going through this. I will check out your thread.
First let me start by saying I had a great weekend with the kids. We did a lot of fun things together.
Regarding WW, things are a little strange. She reached out to some friends that I have been in contact with. She asked to meet them for dinner. Apparently she told them that she was only best friends with OM and said some things that she should not have said. (i.e wanting to be in bed with him, go visit him, stuff like that.) She told them that she had unresolved issues from when she was sexually assaulted in college. They agreed that she is not ready for a relationship with anyone, including me right now until she heals herself. They all agreed that her self-esteem was low and she needed to work on that.
She has never been on her own. She has always relied on someone to take care of her.( Me and her parents). She said she felt she needed to figure out how to take care of herself.
This is obviously not what she has expressed to our friends that will not return my calls or talk to me and have written affidavits supporting her in the temporary hearings.
They talked to her about not keeping the kids away from me and the importance of them having their father in their lives. They talked to her about not bad mouthing their father. She agreed with both of these things. She also said that she was not out to get everything in the divorce.
She did ask them what I had said. She started off by saying "I am sure WhyUs told you I was having an affair. " They told her that that is not how I presented it and that I did not talk bad about her.
Essentially, she said all the right things to them. I am wondering if she was just giving them lip service or was actually coming around to accepting the reality of the situation. Prior to this she has been telling everyone that it was all my fault because I was a terrible verbally abusive husband.
Hopefully her actions regarding the kids will match her words to them. Hopefully her actions regarding what she is telling our friends will match her words to them. If so, this will make a turning point for her. I honestly doubt this will be the case. We shall see...
After I heard all of this I started to feel relief. I wanted to reach out to her as if she were normal again. Then I remembered the whole believe nothing of what they say mentality.
I keep reminding myself that we have only been separated for 3.5 months. This is a short time in the grand scheme of things. For me to expect a major shift in her thinking at this point is unrealistic I would imagine.
Any thought...
I talked to the bankruptcy attorney today. He basically told me that there is no way I can file chapter 7 (eliminates all consumer debt). He said I make too much money and the creditors would not go for it. He said they would go after the business distributions for sure. I would have to file chapter 13 which would require me to pay all debt over 60 months based on what the IRS determines as disposable income. He said this would be more than I am paying now.
He said I should wait until after the divorce since the divorce decree will override anything in bankruptcy court. He said I should go for WW to pay half the debt since it is marital debt. Then, if I can not afford the debt to stop paying it and after 90 days creditors will start trying to negotiate a settlement with me. He said I did not need an attorney for this.
Money, money, money--so frustrating.
Well I'm getting ready to write another good faith child support payment that WW will probably spend on make up and clothes.
I have woken up the last two nights angry with WW about the way she has treated me during this ordeal. Hopefully these dreams do not last long. I know anger is one of the phases of grief. I just thought I was at acceptance already.--guess I am bouncing back and forth.
Last night I just had to tell myself that I understood what WW is going through. This is not easy for her, she is hurting as well. I have contributed to this and have to accept what she has done to me and what I did to her. I imagined having this conversation with WW. It felt like forgiveness, but I know I am not ready for that yet. I am easily reminded of the bad things and despise her for that. I hope there is a time when I do not feel this way.
So last night WW was attacked by patient and ended up in the ER. I am not sure if I should ask if she is ok. I dropped the kids off last night and she seemed ok. I do not think it was that serious, probably more of a precaution.
I just know her and if she is like she was in the past she will hold it against me that I did not reach out and ask if she was ok.
Any thoughts?
I think as WW is your children's mum, some acknowledgement is appropriate, even if only to offer to have the kids to give her a break, or to ask if there is anything you should tell the kids if they hear misrepresented reports.
If It were me then I would say "I heard concerning reports that you were assaulted at work and were taken to ER. I hope the hospital is taking the safety of its staff seriously, let me know if you want me to keep the kids for a few days, I think shock can take a couple of days to settle. Stay well"
Or some such concerned neighbour validating.
V
I have not heard much in the way of what happened to her. S19 said that she told him it was not serious. I am going to send her a message letting her know I hope she is okay and I am willing to help with the kids if she would like.
So I woke up this morning wondering if WW will ever come back. I wondered how I could even take her back. I wondered if I could ever forgive her family for how they have treated me. I wondered if she was ever the right person for me.
She has caused me so much pain I am not sure I could ever forgive her. It would be hard not to resent her. I would want her to disclose the truth to all the people she has lied to. If she wanted it bad enough I suppose she would. There are friends that I would never want to speak to again and would not want her around. That would probably be a deal breaker for her. But if she wanted it bad enough she would do it.
I don't know if she will ever return but I am starting to think about my conditions if she ever does. I want to have a plan in place for how to handle it. I know I would have her do the no contact letter.
As I am writing this I can feel the anger inside of me. I hate that she has done this to me. At times I hate her. Then time passes and I forgive her in my mind. I can't imagine the roller coaster of trying to piece. Anyways, just my thoughts...
Whyus. I was just going through similar thoughts. How could we ever forgive them for what they are doing and then playing victim here. I mean for me it would need to be no Co tact ltr, he'd need to be transparent with me. I mean I don't know how to ever trust any one ever again. I've always had trust issues and now even more.
Soorry I have no advice as I'm looking for advice in this situation also. Just wanted to add my 2 cents in.
Thanks for stopping by overcome. I can't tell what upsets me the most, her playing victim, or people actually thinking she is a victim. I think the fact that her manipulation has worked on some people really bothers me.
Guess I'm still not fully detached, but not near as bad as I was. Kids are out of town with Grandparents and WW is not with them. I can't help but be curiuos about where she is. I'm not obsessing over it like I would have two months ago but I do want to know if she is with OM. I guess I am not 100% sure the relationship turned physical. I'm still not sure if she is still in the thick of the relationship. Wish I had a way of knowing the status of their relationship. The last thing I heard was two weeks ago when she told a friend it was just a friendship, they are best friends and some inappropriate things were said.
Hi whyus.
I totally understand your situation. Sometimes it helps me when I don't ask or snoop. I wish I was detached. It woukd make things easier. Your doing a great job. Continue onto a new you. She's a fool for leaving.. it's only a matter of time she'll realize it..
I forgot to ask you how long have you guys been apart? Living situation and separate?
We have been living in different places since the Mid June. We were living in separate rooms for about 4 week prior to that. I did not realize at while we were in separate rooms she was planning to leave. She led me to believe we had a chance. I do not think she will be coming back anytime soon. She has a lease on an apartment and she and her family have spent a lot of money on furniture and stuff. Honestly, I do not want her back right now. It is going to take time for us to work through all of the hurt before we get to that point.
I already resent her for what she has done. I know that I am a very forgiving person and in time I will be able to heal and forgive. However, it will take some work on both sides. I am currently trying to change myself. I think about how to become a better me every day. Hopefully, one day she will be ready to accept responsibility for her actions and the breakdown of this marriage and family.
I was thinking about the last year or so we were together and remembered some things that my WW wanted me to do.
She did not like that I spent so much time on the computer. I worked from home and was on the computer all day. I would read the news sometimes for hours when she came home. She would tell me that I need to get involved with different things.
I did just that, I became involved with several hobbies. Not once did she ever complain. However, it was like I was gone all the time. I wonder how much this contributed to the breakdown in our marriage.
I have said before that the last 6 months we were together we were like ships passing in the night. When we did communicate it was about business or finances or logistics with the kids, all stressful things.
I wonder if she wanted me away because she was falling out of love with me. I wonder if it is because she wanted to have hobbies and was self-projecting. God I wish I could discuss these things with her. The WW I new before would have been willing to talk about these things 7 months ago. In fact she was the type to talk about it for hours on end.
I wish she would just snap out of it and give it one last try. I wish she would make one last ditch effort. I wish there was a solution other than wait it out and work on myself. Why can't there just be pill to fix all of this.
Just found out it turned into a PA for 100%. She is in his state. She asked me to keep the kids tomorrow and her mother is keeping them all weekend. No on would mention where she was. I was able to find by means I will not mention.
I did not think it would anger me like this but it does. My top is about to explode. It is taking every bit of strength I have to not call her or text her right now.
I don't even know if her family knows. I doubt anyone knows.
Please let me know if you find the pill
Why does it always seem to be one thing after another. In the back of my mind I thought it would become a PA. I told myself it was a possibility. I was also hoping that she would come to her senses before it did and we would work things out.
It is so hard not to call her family and ask them if they know she is there. I am sure she told them she went on a business trip somewhere. What good would it do--none. Just need to STFU and keep cool. If anything this just helps my case with the custody and alimony.
I hate that this is affecting me so much.
Has anyone had success in getting the courts to change a temporary custody order? If so, what types of things supported the change?
Why, I have zero experience with court orders. But can I ask why do you want to make the change? Is it really what's best for the kids? Or are you just trying to make it difficult for your W? Be honest here, no one is judging you, we're all in this together.
Hey,
It is in the best interest of the kids. WW is not allowing me to see them when she is going out of town to see OM for 4 days at a time. She is not allowing them to play sports because I am the coach. They have told me they are afraid she will get mad if I talk to her about their school. She has asked them to choose between the two of us. There is just a combination of different things that keep adding up.--She has a drinking issue. OM is a drug addict and she wants to bring him back to live with her according to S19(does not matter until it happens I know).
The most recent obviously is her going out of town to see OM and still not allowing the kids to stay with me. She knows I am a great father and has always said so. It is just a control issue for her right now.
I honestly feel that she is not capable of providing a safe co-parenting environment for the children right now.
Lastly, yes, I do miss my kids and want to be with them. I have always been very involved in their lives. So I have my own selfish reasons as well. Those reasons will not matter to the court.
I just do not know if the reasons I have given will matter either.
I believe you can. Best to talk to a family attorney.
Actually I spoke to a social worker (my friend) and she was saying if you know that the kids can be in harmful situation and you don't say anything you can be held responsible as well because you didn't let the court know.
It is in the best interest of the kids. WW is not allowing me to see them when she is going out of town to see OM for 4 days at a time. She is not allowing them to play sports because I am the coach. They have told me they are afraid she will get mad if I talk to her about their school. She has asked them to choose between the two of us. There is just a combination of different things that keep adding up.--She has a drinking issue. OM is a drug addict and she wants to bring him back to live with her according to S19(does not matter until it happens I know).
The most recent obviously is her going out of town to see OM and still not allowing the kids to stay with me. She knows I am a great father and has always said so. It is just a control issue for her right now.
You definitely have some issues that need to be addressed. I don't know how far you'll get with a custody change but it's worth a shot. But you also need to find a way to address the underlying issues, the courts can't fix that. That's going to take something else. Painter might be able to help you here.
I am thinking about sending an email to WW that will go like this:
WW, thank you for allowing the kids to spend the night with me last night. I think it was very healthy for them to spend that time with me. In the future I would love to have them the entire time you are out of town like you were this weekend. Currently, they are spending more time with their grand parents than their own father. This concerns me. It is important that they understand that I am still just as important to them as I was before this all started. They need to know they can rely on me and that I am their primary care taker when you are not a a available to them. Their relationship with me is very important to their developement. Please take this into consideration the next time you go out of town and need someone to watch the kids.
Any thoughts from the crowd?
Why do you have a temporary custody order that doesn't have YOUR children with you 50% of the time?
Hi WhyUs
I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up to date with your sitch. Have you spoken to a L yet? I'd do that if I were you and I'd also do my own research on D/Custody in your area. Here where I am the law is very clear. It's 50/50. No such thing as the Mother getting automatic custody of the children and if they deliberately keep the children away from the father for no good reason THAT can look very bad on the mother if there were to be a custody battle.
That's why I'm a bit confused by your email. I'd do the research first and foremost then re write the email with your rights highlighted. It read to me as though you are asking permission to see your OWN children. That's simply not right. When my WW tried this on with me I simply DEMANDED my rights within the law. Her own L even tried this on so my L and I knew exactly how to respond. The result? 50/50 and she has backed down on this.
As Cadet says in his signature 'Knowledge is power'
Time to take it to her my friend. That email is too wimpy for my tastes.
NDY,
We have already had a temporary custody hearing. In my state it is not 50/50. There is a standard order used until the divorce is final. The primary caregiver(in my case WW) gets the kids most of the time during the school year. Holidays and the summer are split evenly.
I am requesting that when the kids are in her care and she cannot take care of them that she ask me first before letting someone else take care of them. Right now I only get them every other weekend and for 4 hours one day a week.
And how does she keep YOUR children from playing sports? Because THEIR father is the coach????? How exactly does she do that? Because she said so?
Dude.
I'll admit I haven't read your whole thread, but the posts I have set off HUGE red flags and warning sirens. You're begging her to spend time with YOUR kids????
Really?
Ah, ok now I understand. I don't know much about temporary custody orders as I live across the pond but do they not make consideration for these types of situations? Surly the order must state that if your W isn't available to look after your kids it defaults to you?
Standard order, smandard order. It's only standard if you don't fight it. And soon it will become "what the children are accustomed to."
Get a new lawyer. One who will fight for your rights as a father. They work for you.
Drew,
I agree. She has custody during practices and every other game. She will not let my S5 participate when she has the kids. She even agreed to let them play and then changed her mind after the season started and I already volunteered to coach. I'm coaching a bunch of 5 yr old girls and my own daughter does not show up to any practice and plays in every other game. Just crazy!
There is nothing I can do about it unless I go back to court and the judge agrees with me on these issues. Frankly, she is well within her rights. The bigger issue is that this is temporary and she is showing that she is not willing to co-parent and do what is in the best interest of the kids.
I have an L. I do agree that he is not aggressive. I have considered changing for this very reason.
I am not sure if I should expose to her family that WW traveled to see OM and things have most likely turned physical. She had her mother and me keep the kids. I find it hard to beleive that they are aware of how serious the A is. She has convinced them that she is just friends with this guy. She carries a lot of anxiety about the approval of her parents, I doubf she would tell them what she is up to. So:
Possible positives:
1) her family sees she has been lying and they start treating her as though she is. Perhaps a wake up call to bring ber out of fog.
2) her family stops treating me like I am the bad one. Starts suggesting to WW to allow me to have kids more often. They treat me nicer and encourage WW to reconcile.
Possible Negatives:
1) her family already knows and does not care. They are annoyed that I tracked her.
2). WW doubles down against everyone.
3) WW sees it as violation of privacy. Hates me more.
4). WW finds out how I found out and I wont be able to track her again.
5) may be best to hold my cards close to my chest for the court battle.
6). She will think I have not detached and will see this as pursuing.
All of these are pure speculation. I'm not sure there is a way to know what will really happen. Does the risk out weigh the benefit? Would love to here thoughts on this.
Hi whyus
There is a vet on her whom I highly regard called Georgia Bulldog. He has a little more of an aggressive view on DB than some of the others. I'd like to suggest you politely ask for his assistance. His last post was on Defacto's thread. I think he can help you.
Thanks I will try to reach out to him.
You are entirely way too focused on her.
Focus on you and your kids. And things under your control.
In your other thread you said confidence drives attractiveness.
WW, thank you for allowing the kids to spend the night with me last night. I think it was very healthy for them to spend that time with me. In the future I would love to have them the entire time you are out of town like you were this weekend. Currently, they are spending more time with their grand parents than their own father. This concerns me. It is important that they understand that I am still just as important to them as I was before this all started. They need to know they can rely on me and that I am their primary care taker when you are not a a available to them. Their relationship with me is very important to their developement. Please take this into consideration the next time you go out of town and need someone to watch the kids.
Does this sound very confident to you?
The fact that your lawyer is not all over this is very disappointing and does not bode well for you receiving good representation.
You should have right of first refusal explicitly stated in a custody order. Even without RFR in the order, there is no reason why the grandparents should have them and not you. In every jurisdiction I am aware of, unless there is some sort of restraining order then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to go collect your kids from their grandparents if your wife is not with them. Your inlaws are not the parent, and do not have custody, even partial. You do.
I would suggest you go right now to visit the grandparents, calmly tell them the truth that their mother is with her boyfriend and that you are going to watch your own children because she apparently doesn't want to.
I think your fear of telling the truth about your situation is unfounded. You need to fight back because you are letting her create precedent, and that is 90% of the battle. You need to put pressure on her - dont keep her secret about the affair, dont let her win support by pinning this on you, dont thank her for allowing you to see your own kids, and find a lawyer who will fight for modifications to the custody order. You have a lot of ammo if you move fast - her leaving the kids for days for an affair, her violations of RFR, her blocking their participation in sports, and she left the family home.
The fact that your lawyer is not all over this is very disappointing and does not bode well for you receiving good representation.
You should have right of first refusal explicitly stated in a custody order. Even without RFR in the order, there is no reason why the grandparents should have them and not you. In every jurisdiction I am aware of, unless there is some sort of restraining order then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to go collect your kids from their grandparents if your wife is not with them. Your inlaws are not the parent, and do not have custody, even partial. You do.
I would suggest you go right now to visit the grandparents, calmly tell them the truth that their mother is with her boyfriend and that you are going to watch your own children because she apparently doesn't want to.
I think your fear of telling the truth about your situation is unfounded. You need to fight back because you are letting her create precedent, and that is 90% of the battle. You need to put pressure on her - dont keep her secret about the affair, dont let her win support by pinning this on you, dont thank her for allowing you to see your own kids, and find a lawyer who will fight for modifications to the custody order. You have a lot of ammo if you move fast - her leaving the kids for days for an affair, her violations of RFR, her blocking their participation in sports, and she left the family home.
Totally agree.
You can contact fathers' rights organizations to get recommendations for L in your area.
I would also add - document everything. Create a binder that shows how she interferes with your relationship with the children and frustrates your efforts to bond with them (for instance through sports).
You can also ask the court for mandatory co-parenting classes for both parties, and offer to pay for them if you want to make sure you get it.
Hi WhyUs-
I haven't posted on your thread before but I saw that my friend Sunny B was giving you advice - so I read through your last few pages and thought I would drop in my 2 cents.
Regarding the extracurricular activities, FWIW, I had this issue explicitly addressed in our custody agreement - "The custody arrangement shall not interfere in the children's opportunities to engage in extracurricular activities". Granted, every state is different - but it's hard for me to think that a judge wouldn't view this type of arrangement as in the best interests of the kids and it is pretty hard to argue against. So - I just want to let you know that it is possible (In fairness - my STBX has never had a problem with it or the fact that I coach most of my daughters activities).
Mostly I wanted to comment on this ......
I am not sure if I should expose to her family that WW traveled to see OM and things have most likely turned physical. She had her mother and me keep the kids. I find it hard to beleive that they are aware of how serious the A is. She has convinced them that she is just friends with this guy. She carries a lot of anxiety about the approval of her parents, I doubf she would tell them what she is up to. So:
Possible positives:
1) her family sees she has been lying and they start treating her as though she is. Perhaps a wake up call to bring ber out of fog.
2) her family stops treating me like I am the bad one. Starts suggesting to WW to allow me to have kids more often. They treat me nicer and encourage WW to reconcile.
Possible Negatives:
1) her family already knows and does not care. They are annoyed that I tracked her.
2). WW doubles down against everyone.
3) WW sees it as violation of privacy. Hates me more.
4). WW finds out how I found out and I wont be able to track her again.
5) may be best to hold my cards close to my chest for the court battle.
6). She will think I have not detached and will see this as pursuing.
All of these are pure speculation. I'm not sure there is a way to know what will really happen. Does the risk out weigh the benefit? Would love to here thoughts on this.
A lot of this post is about how telling her parents might affect your WW. I would encourage you to reframe this. As much as possible I would work on developing your own positive relationship with them regardless of the outcome with WW (and if that entails enlightening them about some of the reality of the situation so be it). There is no downside to trying to establish a warmer relationship with your in-laws. My sitch is different because STBX called them on the day of BD and told them that he was having an affair and filing for divorce, but the same principle applies.
I've actively kept communication open with them (in the beginning they spoke with me more than they did with him). I facilitate the kids communication with them by setting up Facetime calls, etc. I send them copies of pictures and remember birthdays and anniversaries just as I have always done. I go out of my way to avoid bad mouthing their son, although we do speak factually about the situation. Honestly, I'm closer to them now than before the marriage and that has reaped all kinds of benefits. While I didn't intend it that way, I suspect it was a factor in STBX and his OW breaking up. More importantly its been great for the kids to at least partially avoid a situation where it becomes "my side of the family" versus "his side of the family" (he avoids mine like the plague).
This summer - my D7 asked what relation her grandma was to me now while we were all in the same room together and I said "she will always be your grandmother and that makes her family". It was a good moment.
And go after that right of first refusal - again that is something that should seem entirely reasonable to most judges.
Good Luck.
I have to say this is why I was confused. Here, unless there are mitigating circumstances first refusal falls to the other parent. Extended family don't have a say in the matter. But not being state side I'll bow to the superior advice above. But I'd sack that L if I were you. Or put a fire cracker up his unmentionables.
In your other thread you said confidence drives attractiveness.
Does this sound very confident to you?
I do believe confidence drive attractiveness. In this letter I was trying not to come off as a jerk. I tried not to sound like I was unsure of what I was asking while also taking into account it is really out of my hands. I was simply trying for balance. However, after reading the other responses that people of given I am thinking this really is not out of my hands. I am certainly rethinking my approach. At this point I think the letter is a bad idea. I need to have a heart to heart talk with my L.
And yes, I agree that I am way to focused on her. I was doing well with the detaching until this most recent issue. I need to get back on track. I will say that emotionally I do not feel anything like I did those first few months. I do not hurt like that at all anymore.
I thought the general consensus was that letters to your other half was not a good idea. I think I was given that advice and have passed it on. I did one before I got here and it didn't do me any good. Make me sound like a sniveling idiot!
The fact that your lawyer is not all over this is very disappointing and does not bode well for you receiving good representation.
You should have right of first refusal explicitly stated in a custody order. Even without RFR in the order, there is no reason why the grandparents should have them and not you. In every jurisdiction I am aware of, unless there is some sort of restraining order then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to go collect your kids from their grandparents if your wife is not with them. Your inlaws are not the parent, and do not have custody, even partial. You do.
I would suggest you go right now to visit the grandparents, calmly tell them the truth that their mother is with her boyfriend and that you are going to watch your own children because she apparently doesn't want to.
I think your fear of telling the truth about your situation is unfounded. You need to fight back because you are letting her create precedent, and that is 90% of the battle. You need to put pressure on her - dont keep her secret about the affair, dont let her win support by pinning this on you, dont thank her for allowing you to see your own kids, and find a lawyer who will fight for modifications to the custody order. You have a lot of ammo if you move fast - her leaving the kids for days for an affair, her violations of RFR, her blocking their participation in sports, and she left the family home.
Fade,
Wow, thank you. This is how I have been feeling. I just have not heard this from anyone else. It seems like this issue has really hit home with a lot of folks. The L I currently use was recommended by two really good friends that are also L's. One of the L's said that he thought this L would not be aggressive enough but they both ultimately said for me to go with him. This is why I have hesitated to sack him.
[/quote]
Totally agree.
You can contact fathers' rights organizations to get recommendations for L in your area.
I would also add - document everything. Create a binder that shows how she interferes with your relationship with the children and frustrates your efforts to bond with them (for instance through sports).
You can also ask the court for mandatory co-parenting classes for both parties, and offer to pay for them if you want to make sure you get it. [/quote]
Painter, thank you for the support. This is what I have needed to hear. I really am appreciative for everyone that is chipping in.
raliced,
Thank you very much for stopping by my thread. I appreciate any advice I can get. I love your perspective on dealing with the in-laws. This has been very frustrating for me. We were always close and now it is like we are enemies. I have always loved them. It is really hard to accept that they treat me like an outsider these days. I am going to start making an effort to work with them.
I do want to talk to my L about if I should disclose my knowledge of WW going out of town and making things physical. I don't want her to know how I found out and I am afraid she will figure it out. I need to know if I need more evidence before I give up my source.
I thought the general consensus was that letters to your other half was not a good idea. I think I was given that advice and have passed it on. I did one before I got here and it didn't do me any good. Make me sound like a sniveling idiot!
Huddy,
Right now the only way I have to communicate with WW is through email. We have a mutual restraining order against each other. Her attorney specifically requested this. This by the way was against the judges lecture at the end of our temporary hearing in that he told us to work together and discuss how we can best raise the children through this mess.
We have a mutual restraining order against each other. Her attorney specifically requested this. This by the way was against the judges lecture at the end of our temporary hearing in that he told us to work together and discuss how we can best raise the children through this mess.
What exactly has your lawyer done on your behalf?
Because I'm not seeing anything. You could have not appeared, been found in default, and gotten the same result.
Good question,
He has negotiated decently on the financial side of things even though I think he could have done that better as well. When I first met him I did not feel like he had a good grasp of the situation. During the custody hearing I thought he was blowing it until the end. Then he came full circle.
She had taken out a Emergency Protective order against me in order to get the full custody of the kids for about 25 days. He was able to show the judge that it was frivolous--which it totally was. They came into court asking for supervised visits. The judge essentially laughed at them for that.
A lot of the things that WW has done happened after the custody order was in place. He told me to wait it out because she will eventually mess up real bad. I think his strategy is to make sure we have enough to be 100% the order will be changed. Every time I go to court it costs me about $1,500.
He has negotiated decently on the financial side of things even though I think he could have done that better as well.
Maybe it's different in your state, but typically finances aren't even discussed until a final parenting agreement is in place.
He told me to wait it out because she will eventually mess up real bad.
Are you willing to stake the next 10-15 years of your time with your children on that assumption?
I think his strategy is to make sure we have enough to be 100% the order will be changed.
It's not his strategy. It's yours.
Do you have your kids yet?
Why not?
Hey Drew,
Our D will be a bit complicated because we own a business together. It will take a long time for it to be final. Therefore, we had to have a temporary financial hearing and custody hearing. Neither the custody or financial agreements are permanent.
However, from what I have read, the courts do not usually change the temporary custody order unless they have good reason. Right now my L thinks we do not have enough. I will speak to him hopefully today or tomorrow and lay it all out on the table. I intend to have him understand that I want a change in the temporary custody agreement and that we are not being aggressive enough.
Everyone I have spoken to is shocked at what is going on with the custody. Drew, thank you for having me question myself on how to handle this issue.
So a question for you, and the answer may help you. You've said you own a business together and that it wouldn't survive without your wife. So how is it that she was considered the primary caregiver to the children in your temporary custody agreement? Is she? Was she? Or did it default to her?
Again, based on my limited knowledge of your sitch, I would have thought this is a point your lawyer would have pushed.
While I will say that I am a very involved parent-more than any father that I know, She was the primary care giver. She worked 17 hrs a week and I worked 40. We own a business together but I work full time in another job. Right now, she definitely is the primary caregiver since she is with them all the time. She has changed a lot since all of this happened. It is like the kids are second to her. She only wants them more because of a control issue that she has. She had a drinking problem that my lawyer did push and we had a lot of evidence to support it. We just did not have anything showing the children were in danger while in her care.
Things I am doing now:
I go to the school and have lunch with both kids on a weekly basis. I attend all school conferences. I have intellectual and physical activities for the kids when I have them. I have them spend time with friends as well. I always say nice things about their mother. I take them to church on Sunday when I have them. I try to cook for them more than have them eat out. I ensure that all homework is done when I have them during the week. I encourage conversations with them whether it is about something that upsets them or just something they want to talk about.
I keep a journal of the activities that we have been doing and of the negative things that their mom does.
Thanks for the info. I understand better now.
And please understand my first wish is that you DB your butt off and save your marriage. In the right way.
But let's say you don't. What do you want? Do you want 50/50 custody? It's not easy.
Think about that.
I believe its what is best for the kids, from my perspective WhyUs looks like the more stable parent.
As kids come first, last and in the middle, 50-50 looks sensible to me, if things are truly awful with a wayward its a stepping post.
Just my 2c
V
Thank you Drew.
You present a very good question. I have thought long and hard about weather I want 50/50 custody. I have my selfish reasons for wanting it and not wanting it. I know that I will have an easier time of finding a new mate with out it. I know that life will be much less stressful without 50/50 custody. I also, know that I miss my children like crazy and to not want to miss a second of them growing up. I know that my children need me in their lives as much as possible. I know that I am jealous of my WW getting more kids with my wife.
I do not think my WW is capable of maintaining the current custody agreement without having some sort of mental breakdown. This will eventually affect my kids.
Ultimately, I think I should try for the 50/50 custody for my children. I truly believe that I am a good father and they are going to need me in their lives. WW has always had some sort of health or mental issue her entire life. I suspect this will not change. WW is clueless about money and I am afraid my children will end up that way without my influence in their lives. WW is irresponsible in many ways. She is never on time being places or for anything really.
The only job she has ever been able to hold down is the one she has now and that is because we own the business. She can not fire herself. She is amazing at what she does. However, many clients get frustrated with her because she forgets appointments, does not complete her work, or shows up late. These are all traits I do not want my children to have. She really struggle to prioritize things. Instead of completing something that a person paid $2,500 for she will take the kids on a pic-nic because she feels they need it. In other words, responsibility is a real struggle for her and always has been.
I believe its what is best for the kids, from my perspective WhyUs looks like the more stable parent.
As kids come first, last and in the middle, 50-50 looks sensible to me, if things are truly awful with a wayward its a stepping post.
Just my 2c
V
Just FYI, I fought for and got 50/50 custody and have it to this day.
What type of things did you have to do to get the 50/50 custody? Any advice is welcome.
You said 50/50 is not easy. Do you have regrets?
What type of things did you have to do to get the 50/50 custody? Any advice is welcome.
Hired a good lawyer. Insisted on it. Lived it. Compromised where I had to.
You said 50/50 is not easy. Do you have regrets?
None.
I understand what your L is thinking, but meanwhile, the children suffer. We've been through this with H's ex and years of conflict takes a huge toll on the kids.
We actually ended up with them full time.
This is so stressful for me. It seems like there is never an easy answer. I want to discuss my concerns with WW in hopes that she will be open to acting like an adult. It just seems hopeless to try and reason with her.
Yesterday S19 told me that he sent a letter to WW telling her that he thought what she was doing with OM was wrong. He told her that he did not feel like OM should be around S5 and S7 because he does too many drugs. Her reply was, "yeah, he has some growing up to do before I let him around the kids." This happened a month ago.
Yet, she still continues to go visit him. Where is her brain? I asked S19 if he thought she would ever snap out of it and he said no, not even in 5 years. She has made it clear to everyone that she is done. I just feel like she is digging her heals in and making it harder and harder to come back if she ever changes her mind.
S19 also said he did not think I could take her back after all that she has done. He told me that he is trying to stick with both of us but that WW is making it hard with her actions. He was upset that she has lied to her about OM and the reality of their relationship. I explained to him that people are able to reconcile and it happens all the time, especially when it comes to the well-being of the children.
Cadet or anyone who knows,
After all this time I still have not figured out how people are quoting small sections of other people's posts. Every time I want to quote it takes the entire poste when I really only want a sentence or two.
What is the technique used to accomplish this?
Sandi,
I have seen you write several times that an LBH of a WW needs to become a man she can respect. That makes perfect sense to me. My question is how do I do that? I don't even know if she notices anything I am doing. She has changed so much these last few months that I am not sure what she would respect or not respect. Should I go based on the types of things I know she would have respected prior to BD?
WhyUs,
I can tell you are in a tough place right now and I'm sorry. In regards to becoming a man that WW respects again, I would challenge you to check your motivations. I know you've heard it before but first, you must become the man that you respect. Any changes that you make simply to influence WW will be ineffective and short term at best. What kind of man does WhyUs want to be?
I agree with Defacto. It is about becoming a person you truly like and respect yourself - regardless of what your W may think. Then, she can take you or leave you. And the thing is - if you have reached a place of happiness and peace within yourself, it won't matter too much as you'll be just fine either way.
Defacto and Sotto,
I like that and agree. I think I need to self-reflect for a while and try and understand what type of man I am and what type of man I want to be. I can remember a time when I was that person, before I met WW and while I was in college. I can remember that feeling.
When we were in therapy at the beginning of all this the IC asked what attracted her to me when we first met. She said my confidence was one of the main factors. She like that I knew what I wanted out of life. She liked that I did not let others dictate my self-worth. Of course, this was a problem that she really struggled with at the time.
So, maybe some goals around:
Refinding the 'you' that you have lost touch with. Are there things you used to do that you might want to reconnect with?
Rebuilding your confidence - not only to recover from BD - but also to refind your 'single groove' again after years of marriage. We all become enmeshed to an extent when we are M and it can be liberating (yes, I know none of us chose it
) to be single again.
Reconnecting with a strong sense of self worth. It is good that you had it once and you'll be able to get to that point again.
Good luck with things xx
Here is what Cadet has suggested on quoting. You may want to take a peek at Board Policies and General Info for Newcomers thread at the top of this Forum if you have any additional questions on starting new threads, linking, etc:
"Here is a useful tip on using the forum
How to quote
Simplest method to quote is to use the quote button at the bottom.
Also you can highlight what you want to quote and hit the quote button.
Next method is to copy what you want to quote and use the fifth button from the right in REPLY mode,
insert text between brackets.
Last and hardest method is to type
I have left out the trailing bracket so you can see what to type.
[quote=username]How to quote[/quote
Use the PREVIEW POST button before you hit submit so you can see what your post will look like."
Hope this helps you.
Struggling to keep my head up today. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how WW has wronged me. You can see that from my previous posts. Today I have this over whelming sense of guilt. I hate that I have been the cause for so much of this. I wish I could go back and change the things I said and did to drive WW away.
I just can't tell if what WW has said about me being a bad husband is true or not anymore. I know I was not the husband I wanted to be so how can I possibly have been the H she wanted.
I've really struggled to let WW go. I wonder if this guilt is what is holding me back. I don't want my failure as an H to be the reason for this D. Therefore I am trying everything to stop it.-- I don't know how to move through this. I just want to curl up in the bed and sleep.
Struggling to keep my head up today. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how WW has wronged me. You can see that from my previous posts. Today I have this over whelming sense of guilt. I hate that I have been the cause for so much of this. I wish I could go back and change the things I said and did to drive WW away.
I just can't tell if what WW has said about me being a bad husband is true or not anymore. I know I was not the husband I wanted to be so how can I possibly have been the H she wanted.
I've really struggled to let WW go. I wonder if this guilt is what is holding me back. I don't want my failure as an H to be the reason for this D. Therefore I am trying everything to stop it.-- I don't know how to move through this. I just want to curl up in the bed and sleep.
What you're feeling is normal. I go through the same thing sometimes and it's been months since my WW left. You look back, realize what you did wrong, see the bad patterns forming, but how you did nothing to change. The only comfort I can offer is to always remember that it takes two in a successful M, and you can only own your side of the street. Your W was contributing just as many problems in her own way. All of those things can be fixed when you have 2 committed partners who aren't looking for the quickest way out.
It's healthy to recognize where you went wrong, and work on yourself to change those things you don't like. You can even allow yourself to feel some guilt for your issues, but try not to dwell on it. We can't change the past, only make ourselves better for the future. Any reasonable adult can see that, and if your W ever takes the time to think about it, she may come around. If not, you've improved yourself and every relationship in your life going forward so you come out ahead regardless.
I know how hard it is to let go, but just keep working on it. I couldn't imagine a life without my W in it just a couple of months ago, but now I go weeks on end with barely any contact and I'm appreciating all the other people in my life that much more, especially my kids. You are a good man, and will survive this, with or w/o your W. Hang tough brother.
Dwh,
Thanks for stopping by. I have not been up to date on your stich in a while. It sounds like you have your head screwed on straight.
I know what you are saying is true. I tell myself the same thing. Writing on this board and having others encouragement helps get me through days like this.