Time already for another thread. Starting to feel like the
Rocky series of movies. Here are links for:
as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 1) as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2) as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 3) and
as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 4) There is a recaps of my sitch in the first part of part 3 & part 4, so go there if you want more background.
Not much to report, as I'm just continuing detaching and GAL.
Wrote up some of my concerns to discuss in negotiations on custody & finances last night. She's not going to like some, given past comments, so some tact, truth darts, listening & validating, and trying to stay focused on maintaining the health of the post-D R without giving away the store.
Probably going to find a good L to consult just on the realities in my state so I go in to our negotiations on firmer ground particularly on spousal & child support. I'll have to figure that out, as we've talked about not involving Ls in the process other than writing up legal docs, and using mediation for any issues we can't resolve. I'm not going to be dishonest about paying for a consult, but I have to ponder when & how to disclose a bit.
Talked to W today. We were arranging meeting, and W suggested we do the financial part with a mediator. I agreed and said that we limit our meetings to an hour to avoid stress causing us to not manage things well, as the long-term R is a high priority for me.
I told her that while I won't close to door totally, and would be willing to work, I am in agreement that barring that we move to divorce. I also said it would take a lot of work for me to want to come back, that I think it is possible, but I don't want her to think that my being kind and considerate is some kind of attempt to get her to change her mind. I'm done with that, and just want to move forward with my life. I hoped we could develop a healthy working R as co-parent, and maybe some day be friends again.
She agreed that this was what she wanted. You could still sense the anger underneath the surface towards me that she is trying her best to contain. So, she now knows we are on the same page with regards to the D. We are in agreement with how we will go about it, and that managing the R for all our sake's is something we are willing to compromise to maintain, and that we have some help to resolve the sticky areas, etc.
It does suck. I'd still do the work if I thought she had any interest. But she has not shown any, has not seemed to grow much, still blames me for her unhappiness, and I just want to get through the tension of resolving this.
It is very sad to see the person I still love take this attitude and path. It is very hard to see the lingering anger that she nurses. It is very sad to think about the impact on the kids. It is very frustrating that her IC seems to think that what she is doing is reasonable given the young kids and the lack of abuse, and to allow her to nurse so much anger for so long without calling her on the obvious problems with that.
I can do nothing about it at this point. I'm just moving ahead and trying to heal the wounds her leaving have left. I've got a much better life thanks to all this, other than the failure of the M. I'm a much better person. I'm someone only a fool would leave, but there you go. Negative Sentiment Override and being unable to look at the causes of unhappiness outside of the marriage rather than focusing them all there, make one not see things the way an objective observer would, let alone someone who still held loving feelings for the other. Time and friendship may help her get past that. Nothing can be finalized until we sell the house, which is going to be quite a project. I doubt that will be enough time to get past that, but so be it. You take the world as_it_is, not how you'd like it to be. You change what you have the power to change, and you accept what you can't.
So sorry to hear this my friend. Tears came to my eyes as I read your post. It truly is sad thing that the relationship could be salvaged, but she is unwilling to try. You are already a better and stronger person, though we would all like to choose achieve this goal some other way. Keep taking life as it is, and face your future with courage.
I'm sorry to hear that Asitis. I always appreciate your posts on the forum. I also think that it isn't the end until you've decided. Yes, things are edging closer to D - as they are in many of our sitches - but that needn't be the end of the road. A lot can happen. But it does take time....
Sorry it's so tough just now, and do take care ((((Asitis))))
BTW, I'm not meaning that it is over and done with. A lot can happen in the 8-10 months that we'll have before we can get the house sold and finalize the D. Once the agreements are negotiated & I keep moving ahead on my life, she may relax a bit and let go of some of the anger and defensiveness.
In a sense, DBing still continues, as it is part of building a good R, no matter whether the M is saved. It is also important to help me let go of any resentments, appreciate all that I have going for me and my life, and to skillfully relate to the mother of my children. It also is good practice for future relationships.
At some point, I'm going to raise a discussion of dating, as while I don't think I'm ready for romantic relationships, I'm getting to the point of wanting to have someone to go on friend dates with. Nobody particular in mind, just want to go have fun with someone at the symphony, or a concert, or a movie. Anyway, I'll raise that in a day or two so you can help me explore that subject and its potential pitfalls and traps.
I'm sorry to hear that Asitis. I always appreciate your posts on the forum. I also think that it isn't the end until you've decided. Yes, things are edging closer to D - as they are in many of our sitches - but that needn't be the end of the road. A lot can happen. But it does take time....
Sorry it's so tough just now, and do take care ((((Asitis))))
Thanks Soto. I'm actually in a fairly good mood. Just a few moments of sadness registered when looking at my wife with her veiled feelings.
And, yes, it ain't over till it's over, and even then it may not be over. We cross posted, so see my last post.
Hello my friend, I feel for you. I was deeply moved by your second post on this thread. It was a powerful articulation of your feelings. I read it right after you wrote it but it gave me such great pause I could not respond till now.
I am sorry it is evolving in a way that is not best for you or you children. It certainly is not over yet. All it takes is a moment of clarity and you situation could turn on a dime. That moment may only happen if you keep doing what your doing and fight the good fight.
On a personal note, I find your situation upsetting. I admire you wisdom and compassion and I have tremendous respect for you. If you can't make it work how can I ever have a chance. I know every situation is different but it leaves me scared and nervous.
Thanks mutatio. Remember I had many, many months of doing the wrong things before I found my way here. I pursued, I tried to show what a great H I was, I begged, etc., etc. In fact, it took me just over a year to find my way here after first bomb drop. Then there is the normal adjustment to the new way of doing things.
So, don't be too discouraged. A lot of anti-DB efforts paved the way for a pretty difficult task. It also really has only been a bit over 5 months of DBing, and the first one or two were full of mistakes, as is typical. And, it is really only since July that I sensed an easing off on her continued stoking of the anger flames, and later in August when I stopped doing the very subtle pursuing of watching for little signs of change and getting my hopes up. That's not all that long in the scheme of things, especially after over a year of so many mistakes doing things the typical uneffective way.
Have hope. One of the things I've had to resign myself to is that couples in a lot worse shape than my sitch reconcile, and some people who seem like they have it together and the couple doesn't seem that broken just keep right on sailing through to D. Skill is only one factor.
Been reading up on your sitch As. Seems like we're headed in the same direction my friend. Two gents who are knocking themselves out to save our M's with two Ws who are intent on going the other direction. I feel for us both.
All we can do is keep walking the path. Keep DB'ing to the best of our abilities and hold a little bit of hope for a last minute call from the Governor!
I feel you when you say you're in a better place. That's a beautiful thing to be able to say. We've got to have faith (talking to myself a bit here too) that no matter what comes of this, we've gotten there.
I've still got hope for you my friend. Hope that Mrs. As will see all of the work you're doing not as a threat but as what she truly wants out of a partner.
Big hug,
PP
Thanks PP. That's partly why I wanted her to hear me connect the agree w/ the decision to divorce if she's not willing to work, that it would take a lot of work for me to want to come back to the M, and that I want her not to misread me being kind, generous, or caring as signs of pursuit. They are just who I am and want to be with everyone.
It isn't pursuit, so she can relax. I'm giving her all she says she wants, so she can relax. I'm still being a decent caring person, so she can relax. Before, it still would have been I'm not really pursuing, but still a bit. Now, it is just here I am. I'm not doing anything special for you. Your behavior has little bearing on how I will behave.
asitis, I thought I would respond here to the meditation question.
I became a member of a Kadampa Meditation Center.
Kadampa Buddhism is a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the great Indian Buddhist Master, Atisha (AD 982-1054). His followers are known as “Kadampas.” “Ka” refers to Buddha's teachings, and “dam” to Atisha's special Lamrim instructions known as “the stages of the path to enlightenment.”
I started attending March 2015. My new class is Sunday mornings 8:30 till 1:00. It is the teacher training program (TTP). Last Sunday was my first class and it seems overwhelming but I am drawn to it so it is a labor of love.
How long have you been meditating?
I'm familiar w/ NKT.
I've meditated on and off for years (mostly off). After first BD, that became regular daily sitting,then added sitting w/ a weekly group, then last Nov., started regular sesshins and part of Summer Ango at a nearby Zen monastery. So, I was fairly serious practitioner and reader many years ago, let it go always intending to come back, but that was always stop (mostly) and go. W's BD about 18 months ago got me very, very serious.
Still sit daily, but can't do quite as much reading, and am having trouble this semester figuring out how I'm going to work sesshins in to my schedule.
So first after class night out with the gals (4/5ths of my cohort are women, and almost all are just out of college). Damn, I always forget how much college kids can drink. My "therapist" for the semester, is half my size and put down 3 jumbo margaritas to my 5 beers. I think my "client" only put down 2 jumbo margaritas. I put those in quotes because they are my practice partners in my skills class every week. It was fun, but they seem to be very skilled at going out a lot. I've been thinking I've been drinking too much lately, but they put that in a different perspective.
Anyway it was a fun evening. Weird thing, I've thought the young woman whose my "client" this semester has a bit of a crush on me. I always catch her looking at me. She is beautiful and very sweet, but I'm her father's age (I know that we are exactly the same age). It's really weird. If I were 20 years younger, she'd be hard to resist, but her big issues that we explore in practice are her struggles that her job supervisor changes up the work schedule and is disorganized. Mine are divorce, feeling bad about not giving my kids enough quality time because when I'm with them I'm single parenting, dealing with the kids' issues the stem from the S, etc. Just not tempted to go there.
OK, back to what is going on. Nothing new. Just same old. W & I have negotiating meeting set up for Sunday to work on custody arrangements. No real interaction other than brief texts/e-mails about schedules & kids. Just keep on, and focus on my work and time w/ the kids and leave W to deal with her own life.
you have developed quite a GANL.
Get a Night Life
Enjoy
I still enjoyed the evening before, when I took the boys out for our new weekly father-son dinner. Talking about things they are interested in, and watching my 3 year-old flirt shamelessly with his favorite waitress at one of our regular restaurants and her respond back (she adores him & even got him a Christmas gift last year) is more my speed.
S6 was off school today, and it is my day to watch them. Took them into work. Brought them by to see W as surprise for both. She lights up at the sight of them and gives them loving hugs. I just couldn't get the thought out of my head that I really, really still wanted some of that. Know her mood would have changed to hostile in a moment. 30 seconds of chat, then "come on boys." Still carried that feeling for a while as I wrote a test for one of my classes.
Had play date for the late afternoon. Kids enjoyed it, but then started getting real whiny and grumpy. They've just now let up 3 hours later. Long evening reminder of fun of single parenting.
Reading a Buddhist book on divorce. Nothing new, but I'm only about half way through. Have thought about giving it to W so she can understand where I am & relax that I'm just not going to pursue her and that I'm not nursing anger or more than a touch of resentment. It describes my growth process to a T. If you have inclinations in this direction, it's a good book, esp. if you aren't already well read on Buddhism. Storms Can't Hurt the Sky: A Buddhist Path Through Divorce by Gabriel Cohen.
Just keep on, and focus on my work and time w/ the kids and leave W to deal with her own life.
All you can do. I think you're doing well overall so keep it up. I do think you focus on her wanting to see you move on/forward too much though. Saying certain things or wanting to give her the books you're reading. If you want to give her the impression that your moving on telling or trying to prove it to her would come across as the opposite message. Actions not words.
She knows you're an intellectual person and is guarded against that. I believe shes already stated she was scared you were going to talk your way out of it? Or something of that nature. To me, if that's whats shes saying then she will expect you to try and show her you're moving forward. Confuse her and just move forward without trying to show her anything.
Just keep on, and focus on my work and time w/ the kids and leave W to deal with her own life.
All you can do. I think you're doing well overall so keep it up. I do think you focus on her wanting to see you move on/forward too much though. Saying certain things or wanting to give her the books you're reading. If you want to give her the impression that your moving on telling or trying to prove it to her would come across as the opposite message. Actions not words.
She knows you're an intellectual person and is guarded against that. I believe shes already stated she was scared you were going to talk your way out of it? Or something of that nature. To me, if that's whats shes saying then she will expect you to try and show her you're moving forward. Confuse her and just move forward without trying to show her anything.
I agree with Fogg on this one As, show her with the direct actions, not the book that outlines the actions.
I bought the book btw, thanks for the recommendation.
PP
It's not a book on actions. It just explains well where I am. How I'm not holding a grudge, for instance. It is in no way to convince her to come back. It may help her relax so that we can make this next sticky phase of negotiations be a little easier on both of us.
I'm not planning on just dropping it in her lap - first, as I'm not even done with it, but second I've not thought through whether or not it might help her understand where I am in a way that makes our D negotiations healthier & helps w/ the important building of a good co-parenting R. It could make her angrier if she is unconsciously hoping I'm suffering for the pain she believes I caused her.. She would be interested, as she is going through a D and is interested at least in the Buddhist perspective - although she doesn't practice. So, don't worry about me going off and saying or doing anything. Just thinking out loud before I've even finished it.
Sorry Man. I don't really believe this ""It just explains well where I am. How I'm not holding a grudge, for instance. It is in no way to convince her to come back. It may help her relax so that we can make this next sticky phase of negotiations be a little easier on both of us."
I've been there and I've had these feelings. By doing what you want to do, you want get the action you are trying for. Somewhere inside you probably know this. You need to be strong, silent, and respectful. You have to not argue with her and if an argument ensues put it out quickly and painlessly (on your behalf). Be analytical, business like, confident, etc. This is what you have to do. You don't have to give her a book.
Try to look at it a different way...
You brought the boys by to see her and "wanted some of that." --- So you aren't detached, and when you aren't, that means feelings cloud, fog or muddy analytical thinking.
You want to give her the book. Why... Because "it might help her understand where I am in a way that makes our D negotiations healthier & helps w/ the important building of a good co-parenting R." They are Divorce Negotiations. Again, I've been there. There is NO way... repeat NO way. To have these things go smooth. AND it will be a long time after the D is finalized that a good coparenting situation develops. Divorce at its very nature is emotion and competitive.
I think that is only a piece of it.. on some level you want to believe that giving her a book, would make her read it (unlikely). And then reading it would create some sort of reaction that turns this thing around.... I know I have been there. No offense. Reading a book does not mean that you understand and have implemented all parts and knowledge represented in it. It doesn't make you a beacon or expert. That comes with practice and time.
These things take time. Be patient, be analytical. Be like water.
OK. Uncle.
You all convinced me to stop even entertaining the idea.
That's a big part of why we come here. Thanks.
Sorry if I was too harsh. I really have been there. I have had these feelings and on some level I continue to have them.
I think on some level if it is there decision to leave, it has to be there decision to come back, and as someone has stated before, they will only come back if they believe they can be happier than before.
So what does that mean??? My take is that you have to analyze her critiques of you and work on them. Put in checks and balances to remove those behaviors over time. Take away the negative things she said about you and become a stronger person for it. Then when those have been demonstrated (that means you've identified them, identified ways to deal with them, and practiced those methods) perhaps at some point she will notice.
You weren't too harsh.
I have taken care of the behavior she said hurt her or made her unhappy. It isn't a matter of continuing to work on myself, at least in terms of demonstrating that things would be different. She doesn't really care that much. It has more to do with her and her issues at this point.
I just continue to be me, focus on myself, be understanding, and let her go whatever path she chooses. I'll leave the door ajar if she wants to come back and work on things.
We meet for our first negotiation tomorrow. The subject will be custody issues. We're almost certainly in agreement about the basic. There are some differences on leaving the future about one of us moving away from the other. I don't have a clue if she thinks I'd actually move away from the kids, or if she thinks if she remarried & that person got a job elsewhere that she'd want to take the kids with her (not going to ever agree to that). If it is me she thinks she's accommodating, that won't be difficult, as even if I were to remarry, the person would need to understand that I'm not moving away from my kids. Not for anything. If she thinks she could, I'll be even more surprised about her than I already am. Not thinking ahead.
I'm just going to listen, focus on what's best for the kids and practical, and keep an even keel. We'll work this part out fairly easily. We're saving the difficult one - finances - for last.
She wanted to cover custody, the house, and divide up the cars & furniture in one hour meeting, "and maybe start on the finances." More fantasy land. We haven't even inventoried all the furniture, appliances, and other valuables. Even if things go smoothly, we're going to bring up things the other hasn't thought of, and some of those are going to require some thinking on. Just not sure how she thinks things are going to be so easy. Don't want to be seen as bursting that bubble, but I've already planted a couple seeds that this will take multiple meetings.
I'm surprisingly calm about the negotiations. I'm not troubled by it as I have by meetings in the past. Just another opportunity to DB. I'm on guard to being too attached to any way of doing things or any possession. My happiness and the quality of the co-parenting R are more important than any thing. I'm not going to give away the store, I'm just not going to get hung up on having my particular way prevail or get hung up on any piece of furniture. And, it will of course be a great opportunity to practice my mindfulness and R skills.
Of course, she still hasn't let me know when the meeting will be, so she may have forgotten to get a baby sitter. Then again, she hasn't been all that considerate to give me heads up.
As, I wish you well tomorrow. I never even considered the future with custody and remarriage and moving, etc. Does that get covered in D negotiations? Or is that something you have to renegotiate in the future if it comes up? Just curious, never thought that far ahead.
I hope you have a restful night and I know you will hold your own during your meeting tomorrow.
asitis, love your attitude. Enjoy the dance with your wife tomorrow and let us know if she tips her hand.
Dance called off. Babysitter couldn't get out of work on time, so we postponed our negotiations until next week. I was in a good mood & ready to do some DBing. Ah well, it's a beautiful day here, so I'll go get some work done on the deck.
Been mostly offline the last few days, as life is incredibly busy. Still have to finish what has turned into a 30 page paper and do peer evaluation of my training partner before midnight. Taking a little break to check in.
I've had some very good days, and a helpful discussion Tuesday with my DB coach. Lots of work, some social networking and new friends, and good casual and joking brief interaction with my W. Didn't get to have my new weekly father-son dinner last night because of how busy I am. W was very flexible taking the kids for the evening.
Last night and today have been a bit rough. I didn't meditate last night, which may be part of the deal, and I'm definitely working too much and not getting much break. I had a number of dreams featuring the W, including some w/ vague sexual connotations that I don't really remember clearly. The last one was ongoing when my alarm woke me up. I've felt sort of off and down about my sitch today, probably as a consequence. Miss my W today. We chatted about a book of mutual interest, and talked about the pope's visit a bit. We've really just seemed much more comfortable interacting. It is hard to understand why she doesn't want to spend more time with me, as we get along well, have interests in common, and things have been good between us. Part of the not fathoming why she still sees no hope for the M, I guess. We are doing so well that we are going to be negotiating the terms of our D over coffee starting this weekend. We are interested in each other's work, have our common bond of the kids. But still nothing.
I know this will pass with a good night sleep, some meditation, and taking a bit of a personal break tomorrow when I come up from work for air. Still, it is funny how something like a dream can seem to set the tone for the whole day.
I'll try to catch up on people's sitches in the next couple days.
So our first one-on-one D negotiation today. Met at a coffee shop. I got her talking casual topics for a while before we started. When we did, I asked if I could say something before, & she agreed. I told her what my DB coach had recommended about realizing I hadn't been fully alive and that it took her to set off that conversation that has been a catalyst, about how I know how draining that must have been because in a way she wasn't fully alive either & I felt the impact of that. I thanked her, then said how grateful I was that we were handling things so well that we could do it this way, how unusual that was, and how much I appreciate her, me, and us that we are capable of it. Then, relayed a couple of things that had surprised me about the last year & a half (like being able to be really good about sitting here doing what we were doing, etc.). Then asked her if anything surprised her. She thought & answered that we were doing so well and not doing things to hurt each other intentionally and that were doing so well too.
It sounds a bit stilted, but it really flowed naturally, and went well. Let her lead off on the agenda. We quickly agreed on the car division & that selling the house. We agreed to talk at our next meeting about what needed to be done to get the house ready to sell and what we should not try to do. She was is left with some tasks (finding a landscaper to handle some of the yard issues).
We then moved to custody. She agreed with 50/50 with flexibility in short term. She agreed to a 25 mile limit on how far we moved, and after I explained why not leaving things flexible when the kids were in their teens, she said that was helpful to think about and that she agreed that until they left home we'd restrict ourselves. I got to say that if I remarried and that person would know that I was not moving away from my kids and had to be fine with it. She said she felt the same way, and also agreed that the person moving away would be losing primary custody.
We talked about restrictions on introducing future romantic partners, and she agreed w/ the general principles, but wanted to think about just how long before it was OK to introduce someone. I voiced that I was a bit uncomfortable with the issue of having another man around my kids, as like it or not, men were the overwhelming perpetrators of physical and sexual violence against women and children, and that you can't always tell who would turn out to be an abuser. She acknowledged that reality and said that the kids would always be her priority. I told her I knew that, but thanked her for saying so anyway.
We talked about notifying each other when we took the kids on any trip so that there were no worries, and she agreed that we could put that in an agreement. We both agreed that it didn't need to be written permission. We also agreed that we'd just negotiate fair reciprocation of vacations. We set aside holidays to think on it more.
As we finished up, we talked about what would happen at next meeting. She said we could take care of the furniture & maybe start the finances. I said that we didn't even have an inventory of what we had to begin dividing. She said that she was only really interested in one thing we had bought together: the dresser. And that she recognized that I'd bought a lot of the furniture w/ inheritance money and even w/ spousal support would have a lower income. I pointed out that while that was all true, that she would be taking on some of the debt we accumulated & that this directly or indirectly represented a financial stake in the furniture. She said she hadn't thought of it this way, and that I was right, but we both agreed that we would not put things above a healthy R.
We then talked about doing things as a family. She said she was comfortable with us meeting like this, but still felt everyone was too stressed at our recent family get togethers (we've had two - one a month & a half ago that was truly last minute & we were rushed, and the other 6.5 months ago). She said we should do things if it was best for the kids. I said there wasn't any rush, and let it drop before adding that the advice I've been given is that it would be uncomfortable until we all got used to it, so this wasn't really a good reason. We'd covered a lot.
We talked a bit about my schooling, then how I was getting frustrated w/ the Social Work trained therapists, and how especially my training was making it clearer and clearer how limited their training was. I said that if we ever had a conflict as co-parents and needed counseling, that I didn't want to use the guy we did, as I wasn't happy that he didn't seem to understand some of the basics that marriage and family therapist trained counselors did. She agreed. We talked about how therapists tended to take too much of an individualist view of things, and I related that this has been an ongoing struggle for me, as were are told that we should treat the person right in front of me, and not consider the impact on others. I didn't agree with that.
We then talked generally about some of the other aspects of my training that I felt uncomfortable with, and that colored a lot of IC & MC approaches. As usual, we were of the same opinion.
More small talk as I got us up to leave. We seemed to find reasons to bring something else up as we walked to the cars, and chatted a bit by her car until I said I really had to go because I had a lot of work.
That's already too long a post. There were a couple other interesting things that came up, but I'll save those for another post.
Overall, very easy and pleasant, all things considered.
Glad to hear that your first discussion went so well considering what it was. Sounds like you stayed calm and supportive. Great work!
So, I promised some other insights that came out in the talk w/ my wife.
First was that she would not look in my eyes when she was talking. I was active listening, and giving what would have been good contact if she had been willing to return it.
Second, she admitted that while she said that she had forgiven me for hurting her during our M, she realized now that she had not and was still nursing anger towards me.
I think she is both still too afraid to let go of the protection of her anger, and that the eye contact is too scary for her - she might feel herself drawn back in.
Nothing I can do to rush her into the forgiveness. I didn't hurt her as bad as she is now "remembering," have apologized and made amends, and have clearly changed in ways that make the behavior that she found hurtful not really an issue. So, this is her battle to fight. She is still highly guarded and afraid to have a real connection to me, as I suspect she unconsciously realizes that she wants our love back and that scares the cr*p out of her. That's not to say she will ever realize this or open up. Just that, once again, patience and not getting one's hopes up is the path.
I'll have a lot to discuss w/ my DB coach. The eye contact can't be forced or rushed. We had a very good day today. Just let that sink in.
Also, I had called my MiL yesterday so the boys could wish their grandmother happy birthday. Talked to MiL for a bit (she clearly was open to it). Didn't bring up W, just talked about my school & what she was doing for birthday, and the boys. W said she talked to her today, and that even more than being tickled to talk to the boys, she was very happy that I had remembered and made the call and talked. W told her that she had hadn't mentioned MiL's b-day, and W was very glad that I had remembered and helped the boys connect w/ her mom.
I'm very happy with the day. Nothing fundamentally changes. I knew it wouldn't be very stressful (maybe that's the acting as if, only I didn't doubt at all), but it still was a very good, easy hour and a half. Bodes well for our future negotiations and R. Don't think she will come around before the D, but see that it could happen better than I did before today. So, not hopeful, but happy.
Made the mistake of trying to validate her feelings after her disclosure of not having forgiven me, and thanking her for letting me know, as it helped me understand a bit better where she was and what she wanted.
Went out and had a great 2 hour chat over coffee w/ a fellow student. Came hope to a ranting e-mail about not wanting my help with her anger (it's between her and her IC - yeah, that's going so well) and that she was just trying to tell me she was only telling me that she still hadn't forgiven me so that I knew we couldn't be friends any time soon and why she didn't want me touching her (My guess - I put my hand on her arm when we shared how glad we both were to be able to work together this well during the negotiation, which she returned). Funny how when she told me she still hadn't been able to forgive me, that she didn't mention what she wanted from me (she really is bad at asking for what she wants).
Only a tiny reaction to the e-mail, then a calm sorry that she is so riled up in anger after this long.
I just thanked her for her honesty and said I'd be over to take S6 to school as planned.
I had just gotten done talking with my friend about how I was really feeling bad for my W that she was so trapped in her anger, unable to get help from her therapist, and was still sending me mixed signals despite it (being pleasant and wanting to talk despite harboring this rage towards me).
I'm sure she is expecting me to want to talk about it. But she needs to see that I'm OK with her being angry. It's just not a big deal, and she is free to feel how she wants. It doesn't hurt me other than that I feel bad for her. She has always had difficulty feeling she can express it. I would engage before to try to address the anger, but that doesn't seem to help. So now, it's just "thanks for being honest, sorry you feel that way," and on with my life. If she wants to discuss the issue more, she can come to me.
Very sad to see, as she really is good person, and it is hard to watch her trapped in such pain. I'd say not my problem if it didn't potentially impact our ability to be good co-parents. Still, it is her problem not mine. I'd do anything I could to help her, but I can't other than letting her find her own path.
Besides, I had a really good time talking with my friend over coffee. She is the one person in my cohort who has some real experience and understanding, and we are really grateful that the other is in our cohort. We just got done with a rough week of classes, and we really help each other out. And, no I don't have a thing for her. She has pretty face (I have some different preferences in figure, which I know is sort of shallow, but there you go) and I enjoy talking to her, but she is in a healthy long-term relationship with a police officer, and she is still way too young for me (although at 28, she has a bit more worldly experience than the 23/24 year-olds who comprise most of my cohort).
We've decided to start a book discussion group with a couple other people in the program who share some interests, and organizing a dinner for a couple of the people plus their significant others. So, I'm not about to get down over something my W says. Que sera sera.
I'm sorry to hear how your W is treating you. It's a shame her IC isn't helping her. You are being very compassionate Kudos (((hugs)))
Thanks. At least she is being honest. That makes it a lot easier, in a way. It isn't that I didn't do anything to trigger her anger either. I'm know that this is never just one sided. Still, I'd rather know that she is still so angry that she doesn't even want me to touch her. That's shows that it really is a kind of rage. I didn't know that before today. I was operating under a mistaken assumption that has been cleared up for me. It is her problem, but it helps to know what to expect & not to expect, and how to interact with her in a non-destructive way.
So, it also makes it much harder for me to hold out hope for expecting anything from her any time soon. It confirms that my choice to move ahead with my life was the right choice, and that I need to leave her to her take care of herself. All very helpful to know. So, in an odd way, it was a good day.
As, hang in there, you are a rock.
Even though you seem fine I still feel sorry you have to experience this.
Hang tough brother. Our W's sound a lot alike, both afraid they'll get sucked back in so keeping a healthy distance. I've heard the quote that "healing happens at the injured party's rate" so there really is nothing you can do to speed that process up or even guarantee it will happen.
Keep doing what you are. I agree with photo, you're a damn rock. I don't think I could stay as calm in the same situations.
One step at a time, no matter where those steps take us right.
Think of it as you've just finally been given good information to base your actions on. It also re-confirms in a really firm way that this is not really about you, and that the best thing you can do to show your love is to let go so that she can struggle through without you as an excuse for not facing her own demons.
She thinks her life will start when she is able to buy a new house and start living her life. There really won't be any difference to right now, as no one is stopping her from living her life other than her. She's got to learn that and it will take a D to do that. I've seen that she's got to do this to be able to have a chance to see that there are things about herself that she is unwilling to face.
If she does get to the point where she deals with her sh*t, there is nothing to say we can't date and re-marry. In the meantime, I'm not so much further along and healthier. I'm sad that she can't see what she is losing, but I'm not giving much up at this point. I'm fully alive in a way I wasn't. I've got a good life that is satisfying to me. I was worried that she was going to try to screw me over financially, but it is pretty clear that she will bend over backwards to get this done and I can negotiate a fair deal. I'm looking forward to having a place of my own and continuing to build my life.
Haven't talked a lot about all this, but it may help explain why I can be OK with things.
Also, one of my 180s is to not try to fix things when she gets angry. Not my problem unless she lets it intrude on the co-parenting sitch.
Well said As, well said.
PP
Not much going on. Barely interacted w/ my W the last week, which is for the best. Today when we switched w/ the kids she mentioned that her IC had her down to once a month and didn't think she probably even needed that. Let out a "really, even with all your issues?" before I could catch myself. She said I don't really have much in the way of issues. STFU smoothie (see last Sunday's angry rant toward me doing something compassionate and her still being so angry that she can't make eye contact or be touched - even if she returned the casual touch).
Wanted to say something very badly. I had been thinking (although I've dropped it) that I wanted to ask her to go to a family counselor to get help with the dysfunctional dynamic of her sending mixed signals and then blasting me for being nice to her. Very tempting to raise that.
It was only about 5 months ago that she was saying that she would probably be in therapy for the rest of her life because of all of her issues, especially shame and anger. Very tempting to remind her of that. Wanted to say, that I'm sorry for presuming you still had lots of issues, as you have raised having lots of issues not that long ago. Then again, she used to acknowledge that she contributed a lot to the breakdown of our M, but now it is all about me. That in itself seems to be a big issue, but her IC seems not to think so.
Nothing I can do. Very sad. Wish something would break through that shell for her and for us, but it's not something that can come from me. It is hard to see someone I still care about think that carrying all that blame for another and anger at another is healthy and normal.
Going to need to sit with the frustration that triggers.
And as I'm sitting her W texts me that she left some meat in the apartment fridge & wondered if it was OK to come over. Just odd how she works.
We have our next negotiation this coming Saturday. W is still not sure what else we need to discuss. I said we haven't even started on our possessions, we still have custody issues to discuss, and ... "Oh, yeah I guess we do." It's almost like she doesn't want to deal with this - like she might have some issues blocking her being able to face the reality of the path she has chosen.
Oh well.
asitis, you are too nice, pick a fight, have a row, get some of the frustration out. Not in front of the kids if that's possible.
You are a smart guy so know the rules regarding arguments (there's plenty on the web if you need to brush up and it's always concise) so don't let it get out of hand and if it does, or when it's just getting silly or going round in circles, do something stupid, tell a joke, say something really mad, take all your clothes off and say I am doing this because it's impossible to argue without any clothes on, or just start laughing, whatever comes to mind at the time that is completely absurd.
You maybe thinking this'll make her move away from you, maybe she will, or she may start telling you things about how she feels rather than being so strange as you've described. So be prepared to listen hard.
Arguments clear the air, when was the last time you had one with her pre-BD? If it was a long time ago, maybe that's part of the problem...
Anger is not wrong in itself, misuse of anger is, so use it wisely which you are more than capable of doing.
We are so conditioned by society that arguments are wrong (especially in marriage), that's so wrong in itself we are all bottled up individuals and there needs to be healthy semi-regular outlets or else resentment build and we all are experiencing where that leads...
Remember, you may not get instant results but there is every chance it won't be long before you'll see a change.
Of course, this might all sound completely mad, maybe it is, give it some thought though and you might see it's not quite as dumb as it may seem.
It was in front of the kids, and we have not had much opportunity to talk where the kids were not present. I was already planning to raise the problem of her being superficially nice and pleasant but nursing all this anger that comes out at the strangest times.
Who knows where that will lead.
W also told me that her IC recommended someone to talk w/ out some of our S6's issues. I told her: "to be blunt, I have serious reservations about your IC based on some of the things she has advised or said, especially regarding the kids." I had already gotten a referral, from a faculty member I really trust. I had told her about this, and said that I hadn't pursued it because at the time W didn't seem interested.
She hasn't responded to that. So, don't think I'm just being a push over. I just am not going to get all that worked up, as I and my DB coach don't see that having a positive effect on getting her to wake up and reconsider anything.
I also try to wait until I can consult my DB coach before figuring out how to proceed. Usually, I find that by that time, I've already figured out which of my core beliefs was being violated and triggering a drive to want to correct my W or fix our M.
Oh, and just to clarify, I'm planning on discussing w/ my DB coach asking W to go to counseling on the co-parenting situation. I mentioned this back after last week's to-do w/ my W. I am fairly certain it would be a good idea to allow us to address some of the resentments and dysfunction that could interfere w/ co-parenting. Not sure DB coach will concur, and if she does, how she will suggest broaching the subject.
My IC thinks agrees that it is probably necessary given W's behavior and failure to work on her part of the R that will be critical to a healthy co-parenting R. Suspect my W will resist the idea. Hence, my leaving things peaceful until the DB coach call. Still a bit a way, but I can wait.
In the meantime, I've already got my feelers out for a better M & Family Therapist with the kind of training I know we need. Have a couple good candidates lined up.
BTW, I think this is my 1000th post. Never would have imagined it.
I want you to know that I think you managing this situation in a wise, kind and compassionate manner. I hope I can do as good a job as you. Be well
Not much to report here. Somewhat easier work week (at least I'm not really far behind on sleep like previous weeks from working late). Friendly exchanges w/ W, although I sort of in-and-out on her a couple times. When she sees me in the halls I still get a wave - not that this means anything, as I've learned.
We are supposed to meet to have another D negotiation this weekend. Almost thought she forgot, but she e-mailed this afternoon to ask about Sunday because of babysitter availability. Was sort of hoping that she would let it pass, as I'd like to let things settle a bit more after the last session and her follow-on blow up, but no luck.
I've checked in on others' threads a bit, and maybe I'll get some time later this weekend to catch up on a few others.
Islas to hear you are well Asitis.
I had one of those "I think she's forgotten moments" too this week but it wasn't to be.
I realised that by holding back it hanged the focus onto me rather than us, even though it's stuff I don't want to talk about. I do not want to have the finger pointed of "he's dragging his heels" at me. At the same time it doesn't stop me asking for what I want and being clear, even if it means disagreement. It's not being unreasonable, it's standing up for myself without a hint of belligerence. Something I've failed to do before and probably helped to chip away some of the respect my W once had for me.
Just wanted to say that I hope your regular Sunday meeting goes as well as can be expected. Remember, all it takes is one ah-ha moment to change the whole dynamic. So be true to yourself and continue to set the stage for that moment.
In other words, just be yourself.
Looks like the meeting might be off, as the babysitter cancelled due to the flu. Good, except she was also supposed to watch S6 on Monday when he is off school.
Took the boys out to dinner. Been feeling a bit more sexually frustrated the last day or so. Not just for W, but in general. At dinner, a very young waitress (college sophomore) seemed to be flirting a little extra towards me. Now normally I don't read anything into this, as it means even less from a waitress earning tips. Still, the interaction was a bit charged, including a very long look at one point. Not going there, but that didn't help. It's been so damned long. Don't want to go down that path at this time, and I recognize that I desire something beyond mere sex (OK, not mere perhaps, especially the first time the drought ends). I keep telling myself that it's a good opportunity to practice, but wish it would pass so I can get my head straight.
Coffee for one just ain't a substitute.
Ah well, this too shall pass.
Sounds like your babysitter being sick is a blessing and a curse, what are your options as far a your D is concerned on Monday.
It sounds like your dinner experience was very interesting and you took a long hard look at the menu but that diet you are on is worth sticking with or else you'll have a whole load more unnecessary "stuff" to deal with and won't be solved with antacids. Still there is nothing wrong with checking all of the menus out whenever you fancy, even if it makes your stomach rumble. ;-)
I was only going to have the babysitter from 1-4, and W should be able to take S @ 2 I hope.
These meetings are chances to DB, but I don't mind spacing them out to allow them to work on us. I was the one who said I was likely going to be out of town next weekend so we should have our meeting this weekend, so I get points for not dragging it out and yet ...
Yes, I was very tempted. It seemed fairly clear that a casual, fun short-term R was on the menu. Never hit on a waitress before, as I'm fully aware of the flirt for tips. This young woman was either a lot more skilled at subtlety than others or it was genuine interest - she must have some real daddy issues, as while I don't look my age, I'm clearly not in her target demographic. It was especially weird that my boys were sitting right there, so I was definitely not flirting back in front of them. It was unsettling. Still in my current mood, it didn't help certain ideas drift gently off.
Well I hope you at least gave her a good tip!
Some crude individuals might say he was thinking of giving her more than that but his boys were there so smutty innuendo is not appropriate.
Yes... some. But we don't know anybody like that, now do we?
So W e-mailed to ask if we could meet on Wed. @ 2, as the calendar showed us both available & we wouldn't need a babysitter.
First thought is to hesitate, let her stew. No, I'll see her in the morning when I pick up S6 for school. Second thought is to get irritated that she is pushing things.
Wrote back: "Good catch. Absolutely. I'll put it on the calendar." Chuckle to myself. Not just for hitting her w/ something upbeat and unexpected, but that I quickly reframed the sitch for myself from a negative to, what time we have our meeting and her wanting to push forward are just where she is, and I can either be irritated, hurt, and resentful, or I can embrace reality as it is (I chose the screen name for a reason, after all).
So, it looks like coffee w/ W on Wednesday. Then I take the kids out to have dinner and on to a fun night out with my classmates at a pumpkin patch w/ a bouncy house. I suspect she'll try to do something that to show her irritation and anger [at me] as a pre-emptive defense. I'd bet dollars to donuts that she has read the babysitter cancelling on us into agitation w/ me for dragging her guilt and pain out. She doesn't normally write late night e-mail, so she was up and needing to find a way to move things along. I know I can't relieve her pain, and no matter how I responded will likely trigger a reaction at some point to project that pain out onto me. It isn't about me. It's not a game to be played. No response will make a difference in the short run. Maybe my upbeat, surprising response will help (a tiny bit) her let go of her pain in the longer term and enhance the chance for a good R in D. Who knows. Just getting to that point helped me let go while not worsening the R - as far as I can see.
BTW, I created & then deleted a profile on an online dating site. I knew I wouldn't go forward, but it was a first toe dip into the water. No picture, not much thought on what to put. Just wanted to look at the possibilities out there on one of the main sites. Slim pickings if you ask me - can they not actually use my screening criteria of things like non-smoker in the results? Think I'll stay w/ the old tried and true standbys of actually interacting with someone first when the time comes. Still, I recognized that I had taken another step along the path.
And, no need to warn me about the dangers of vulnerability. I'm well aware of them, and know I'm not ready to do more than that tiny toe dip.
...Wrote back: "Good catch. Absolutely. I'll put it on the calendar." Chuckle to myself. Not just for hitting her w/ something upbeat and unexpected, but that I quickly reframed the sitch for myself from a negative to, what time we have our meeting and her wanting to push forward are just where she is, and I can either be irritated, hurt, and resentful, or I can embrace reality as it is (I chose the screen name for a reason, after all)...
Nice one!
...I suspect she'll try to do something that to show her irritation and anger [at me] as a pre-emptive defense. I'd bet dollars to donuts that she has read the babysitter cancelling on us into agitation w/ me for dragging her guilt and pain out. She doesn't normally write late night e-mail, so she was up and needing to find a way to move things along. I know I can't relieve her pain, and no matter how I responded will likely trigger a reaction at some point to project that pain out onto me...
If you read a post like this from someone else would you suggest that they are mind reading?
...It isn't about me. It's not a game to be played. No response will make a difference in the short run. Maybe my upbeat, surprising response will help (a tiny bit) her let go of her pain in the longer term and enhance the chance for a good R in D. Who knows...
A really good mindset.
So a bit down today. W & I had our second negotiation. Went fairly well. Some small talk, no arguments. When we got on the introducing new people she said she would like to be free to start dating if the opportunity came up. We had previously said we would inform the other that we were going to start so that we heard it from the other rather than second or third hand. She said she didn't have anyone in the wings, but she had been asked to coffee by someone who she didn't have an interest in, but who she wasn't sure whether he considered it a date or just coffee. She said she didn't want to feel like she had to determine that or feel like if it ended up turning into a date, that she would have violated our agreement.
She said that she was not ready for romances at this point, and we agreed that if we started going on multiple dates with a person we would let the other know. I had said that I was considering friend dates, but not imagining being ready for romance either, that I would have preferred going out w/ W, but as she isn't interested I want to be open to going out to do things. This seemed to be where we both were.
It still hurt a bit, and I felt sad. I was planning to raise the topic myself, but it still is uncomfortable to hear her voice this shift.
I know it doesn't mean anything necessarily, and she may even have to try to date to get beyond some of her issues and reconsider trying reconciliation. In other words, I recognized that it doesn't mean anything other than what it appears, as neither of us has an idea where it will lead. But all sorts of feelings of loss and a bit of feeling betrayed did bubble up.
Any way, I'm officially cleared to dip my toe in the dating market if I choose. Not sure how I feel about it. I want to, but I want to make sure that it isn't mostly a reaction to her request.
I have the kids tonight & tomorrow, as I'm going to the monastery for sesshin this weekend. I'm taking the kids out to a pumpkin patch with people in my program. Normally, I only get to interact w/ people in my cohort, so this will be good.
W is going to set up a mediation meeting for the next few weeks so we can have a better idea what we need to work on to move the process along in our meetings. I gave her something on parenting plans and some of the issues we would want to address in an agreement.
We also talked about her being angry still. She explained that she was still angry at our past dynamic. I just listened and validated. I have to admit that it is frustrating that this seems to be her big issue and that she doesn't want to wait out her anger and then try to work on the dynamic now that both of us have changed. It is baffling that with kids that this is the path she is choosing. If the dynamic has already changed, if we could work w/ an MC to work to ensure that we build a new, healthy dynamic, and it is mostly just continued anger that we had the dynamic that is the problem that she is not willing to just wait that out. I know that she feels she can't re-fall in love as long as she feels this anger and the awkwardness and stress of interacting given this, but it defies logic not to see that as something that time and work will likely take care of.
Just baffling, and sad.
OK, so here's a thing and you will probably smile and think I've gone nuts Asitis. Why not invite her for coffee? Tell her you are going to a particular spot at x o'clock and it'd be great if she could make it. If she doesn't respond or says no, do it anyway and ask her again a few weeks. If she turns up don't talk about your R or M, keep it light, no work stuff either. Create a new secret world for the two of you, weave the magic that you did when you first got together.
If you were going to woo a new woman, what would you do? You'd look to create a spark but you'd take it slow, right? So woo your wife, show her the fun new you (she's probably only seeing serious you most, if not all of the time). Your wife has said she's thinking about coffee with other guys, why not you?
It's asking you to be vulnerable and that's scary but what do we do in the early stages of a R? We make ourselves vulnerable bit by bit.
Sure you are talking about nuts and bolts stuff regarding your marriage in arranged meetings but creating another world over time that you could both also be in may spark her interest. Be slow, but be bold, slowly and I mean slowly build the romance. No grand gestures, nothing like that, be light, be fun, be confident, be spontaneous.
If nothing comes of it, so what, you've not lost anything and maybe worked out a few things you could do for the next woman in your life, if that's what ends up happening.
Nuts moment over, I'll get back to being crackers now.
Baffling and sad, I agree As. I don't get it either. I also think it probably is better not to discuss dating with her until you or her are in an actual relationship with someone. You really don't want to have to run every date by her, or her you. What will that accomplish?
At least your W didn't start dating while you were still married. Take comfort in that.
It's a good idea, except that she has indicated that we can't be friends right now because of her anger.
I just have to let this sit for a while and work through my system before making any decisions or taking any actions or making any statements.
Definitely let some of my frustrations w/ W spill over on the kids tonight. Tried to explain that I had a tough time w/ their mom today and that it was not fair for me to be a bit more snappy than usual, but I asked older one to try to understand and help dad out tonight.
To Photoka:don't worry, it is more a heads up that we are starting to date,not that we are dating any particular person. And, while part of me felt like jumping in with both feet today, I also recognize that I really want to stand up for my M even if is dead for the time being. Next week might be another matter, but it is odd that our conversation actually gave me some hope. Maybe I'm too confident that reason will prevail once some time goes by and the anger slowly dies.
We did talk about how now that the possibility was there how I was noticing how old people my age look,and W agreed and added "and fat." I told her that it made me really appreciate how beautiful I still found her, which she clearly appreciated. I told her that a 20 year-old waitress was flirting w/ me & how weird that was, and she said, well you do look like you are in your mid-30s (I've always passed for much younger, and she has always thought so too). It was a weird sort of commiseration that we will likely both have to date younger if we want someone who doesn't look much older. We are in a relatively small city in the upper midwest (neither are from here), and we've always been aware of how much older and fatter (no offense, as I don't mind a few extra pounds personally, if carried well and there is something attractive about the other person, but when you are just looking around without knowing...) people are here than we are used to, but the reality is striking when you are considering the dating pool.
Wanted to just say, look we have kids together, we still think the other is substantially better looking than people our age, we still share all those interests and values (other than sticking to our marriage, you know, for better or worse), we have changed and grown to not repeat old dysfunctional dynamics, why don't we just give it some time and figure out how she can work on letting her anger go, and trying to start over. Of course I didn't, but very frustrating.
I have another DB coaching session next Tuesday. Will run this latest conversation by her and get her input.
In the meantime, I really sort of wish I could just go find someone who would both be attractive, nice, open to a casual fling but with some ability to be a bit vulnerable and willing to be there in that moment rather than shallow sex and then split. Just a taste. It's not like I want my W right now. I don't find her all that alluring or attractive right now. I just wish I could stop being so d*mn responsible and upstanding, and get on with that aspect of life a bit to go along with getting along in the ways I already am.
[/pity party]
I am sorry you are feeling down As'. We all have our pity parties but hopefully yours ends soon. I will have to catch up on the dating conversation you had with W, so not looking forward to that convo with H. Yikes!
Sending you strength As, it's a long haul. Hell, sometimes I think that maybe being responsible is the wrong way to go about it. Who knows. Make a mess, break some eggs, be real, you know? Life is messy, divorce sure as chit should be.
But I hear you as well, you want to hold the line that you set. I'm with you on that one. It makes for some lonely nights, but you'll be able to look back at yourself with your own integrity intact and know that you did absolutely everything in your power to save your M.
You're in a tough spot and daring bravely, that's to be admired even in your toughest moments. You've got my respect.
PP
As, I cling to my integrity tightly. I hope I don't break it! I have temptations to do all kinds of wild and wicked things, like go hook up with some random person so H gets to feel the pain I do.
Lately, I've been using those little temptations as stress relief. It's kind of fun to take it out of the box and look at it, knowing I could....but will not. After a chuckle and sigh, I put the temptation back in its box and continue living life the way I choose. A life that reflects integrity, honor, and commitment.
I'm pretty sure I sound insane. It does make me feel better though...knowing I could cause H the same kind of pain, but I choose not to, because I am in control. I like who I am. It's kind of a sad comparison on the other hand. H chose poorly, and at the moment I don't much like who he is.
Hi Asitis, sorry you're feeling in a bit of a funk. It must have been hard having that convo with your W. For so many of us, we would love to be the one that our spouse wants to spend time with, but right now we aren't....but in time, who knows??
It's been on my mind, so I hope you don't mind but I'm going to comment on the attention from much younger women in your sitch....and lucky you passing for 35!! I noticed that a couple of times you have posted about positive attention from much younger women - students of yours, a waitress.
The students comments in particular I noticed as there would be an expectation of appropriate boundaries in your contact with them, and potential consequences at work if not maintained. I work in HR, so maybe I'm just hypersensitive about these things! I'm not suggesting you aren't maintaining suitable boundaries, but to me going out for drinks where a student seemed attracted to you is a potential risk area.
I'm just wondering why the positive attention from much younger women in particular seems to matter, and whether you need that affirmation and why? I hope you dont mind me making these observations and that they may provide some useful food for thought.
Take care Asitis, and I value your wise comments on the forum BTW xx
It's a good idea, except that she has indicated that we can't be friends right now because of her anger.
So are you saying that Sandi2's rule, don't believe 100% of what they say and only 50% of what they do, does not now apply?
You must have had experience in your early dating days when you were getting mixed signals from a woman but you somehow sensed that she (sometimes wrongly, sometimes rightly) really wanted you to pursue her, so you took a chance? You wife is not being that difficult with you at work and in general encounters, did you ever think that maybe she is giving you signals, albeit perhaps unconsciously that she'd like to be pursued (not in the clinging, needy way).
What DB'ing can do is make everything very serious plus over analysis and intellectualisation come to the fore. Sometimes, what is needed is a little lightheartedness and fun to be injected, seat of the pants approach doesn't ever feature on this forum and sometimes it's those kind of behaviours (not all the time and there needs to be a degree of planning) are what's required to change the dynamic of an R.
Waiting for something fundamental to change can be a dull, sometimes painful and potentially fruitless occupation and is potentially why some of us feel down at times.
Sure, GAL is important to shake that, thinking about it what GAL actually is, is doing something spontaneous, reconnection with something past or something desired but not pursued due to circumstance. Doing something you enjoy, having fun time with your S is what everyone enjoys so doesn't it make sense to look for ways to make that part of your GAL activities, when the time is right, might (better) be right?
Mr Crackers signing off.
Hi Asitis, sorry you're feeling in a bit of a funk. It must have been hard having that convo with your W. For so many of us, we would love to be the one that our spouse wants to spend time with, but right now we aren't....but in time, who knows??
It's been on my mind, so I hope you don't mind but I'm going to comment on the attention from much younger women in your sitch....and lucky you passing for 35!! I noticed that a couple of times you have posted about positive attention from much younger women - students of yours, a waitress.
The students comments in particular I noticed as there would be an expectation of appropriate boundaries in your contact with them, and potential consequences at work if not maintained. I work in HR, so maybe I'm just hypersensitive about these things! I'm not suggesting you aren't maintaining suitable boundaries, but to me going out for drinks where a student seemed attracted to you is a potential risk area.
I'm just wondering why the positive attention from much younger women in particular seems to matter, and whether you need that affirmation and why? I hope you dont mind me making these observations and that they may provide some useful food for thought.
Take care Asitis, and I value your wise comments on the forum BTW xx
Ah, these were fellow students in my grad program (i.e., I'm not their instructor, but a class mate). I would never go out drinking with a student. Also, I think why I comment on it is that I'm surrounded almost daily by attractive young women, and am not used to being considered of interest. Don't know if that was because I was being clueless before or because I'm out with my kids alone with no ring on or they are aware of my status. Also, as I become better friends with my fellow students and get more of a peak into their world, the experiential and interest gap become increasingly apparent, and I can't imagine how they can find anyone my generation of interest, because our interests and life view tend to be so vast.
I'm also getting attention from a number of women nearer my age (sometimes I feel like chum in the water with sharks circling in some setting - there are some very lonely middle aged people out there). The younger women have the attraction of not trying to fill a void in their lives that I sense from some of the older women who have shown interest. I'm not ready for that intensity, so it is a bit of a turn off. I know that eventually I'll adapt and find some people who are closer in experience & interest, and who don't aren't so threatening (or maybe I'll just feel less threatened as time goes on, as I won't still be holding to the remnants of my W).
Anyway, please don't worry one bit about me crossing a line with students I teach. I'm hyper aware of that issue & recognize the responsibility that comes with the power differential. Thanks for caring enough to warn though.
It's a good idea, except that she has indicated that we can't be friends right now because of her anger.
So are you saying that Sandi2's rule, don't believe 100% of what they say and only 50% of what they do, does not now apply?
You must have had experience in your early dating days when you were getting mixed signals from a woman but you somehow sensed that she (sometimes wrongly, sometimes rightly) really wanted you to pursue her, so you took a chance? You wife is not being that difficult with you at work and in general encounters, did you ever think that maybe she is giving you signals, albeit perhaps unconsciously that she'd like to be pursued (not in the clinging, needy way).
What DB'ing can do is make everything very serious plus over analysis and intellectualisation come to the fore. Sometimes, what is needed is a little lightheartedness and fun to be injected, seat of the pants approach doesn't ever feature on this forum and sometimes it's those kind of behaviours (not all the time and there needs to be a degree of planning) are what's required to change the dynamic of an R.
Waiting for something fundamental to change can be a dull, sometimes painful and potentially fruitless occupation and is potentially why some of us feel down at times.
Sure, GAL is important to shake that, thinking about it what GAL actually is, is doing something spontaneous, reconnection with something past or something desired but not pursued due to circumstance. Doing something you enjoy, having fun time with your S is what everyone enjoys so doesn't it make sense to look for ways to make that part of your GAL activities, when the time is right, might (better) be right?
Mr Crackers signing off.
It's not crazy, and I have thought of that. It is more that when I tried to go the not pursuing friendship angle in angle at the suggestion of my DB coach, it had the wrong effect, and we decided to back off for now. Her evaluation was that we weren't at the friendship stage and that we jumped the gun on setting the stage for that even to the extent we were.
The D negotiations over coffee have an element of that in a non-threatening way, as we so far have spent 15-20 minutes of our hour just chatting about things unrelated. Also, it is not so much believing what she says, but finding that I'm not enjoying being around someone who is containing their anger and has gone off when things seem to be going well with no provocation. It is like she gets scared when she starts to like being with me, & then boom!
I will be talking w/ my DB coach, and she may suggest the same thing as you based on what I report. Who knows. I do know that I have some time, and if there are signals that it would make sense to try pursuing again, I will. DB Coach has stressed only being around her for short periods when I can be relaxed and natural and pleasant and attracting. At least at today that ain't me when I'm around her. Maybe in a few days, I'll settle & see things differently, but there is no rush. I'll wait to talk w/ my coach.
Very wise, your DB coach is your expert in this, go with whatever they say, I do with mine and will continue to do so without question, well maybe a few just to clarify. 😀
Of course, but your suggestions have been getting me thinking. I do want to date my wife. Not get back into our marriage, but to date her. Not be friends, although that may have to precede the dating, but to woo her again. I'm going to bring up w/ my coach going a bit beyond just being attractive when around her. We can go ahead and sell the house and live apart, for however long while we figure out if we can rekindle the spark and develop a better set R dynamics. How to do that without scaring her further away (because she is scared - under all that anger is fear of not being loved and cherished) is the tricky part. I'm sure DB coach will turn that impulse into something productive even if it wasn't what I intended.
No matter. I'll sit on until Tuesday.
BTW, in case you are wondering why those of us who have some training in counseling and Rs can't fix our own marriage, my good friend in the program who has a MA in marriage and family therapy, just had her long-time boyfriend break up with her. She's really good, has good instincts and insights when it comes to my sitch, but I'm having to talk her down from doing things she knows don't work. I keep saying, "you know that that won't work..." And she keeps responding, yes, you're right. And then it is to the next topic & I we go through the routine again. I feel really bad for her, as she is going through a lot with other demands on her, and didn't need this. It is fairly clear that her BF has a couple issues (I was able to peg them immediately, which she confirmed, but had forgotten). In the fog of BD, even someone with the knowledge and instincts flails.
So to everyone out there struggling, go easy on yourself. It happens to all of us. It doesn't means she's not a good MC, because she is. It means we all need to turn to others when it's us.
So to everyone out there struggling, go easy on yourself. It happens to all of us. It doesn't means she's not a good MC, because she is. It means we all need to turn to others when it's us.
This statement is so very reassuring. Thank you!
“You're an interesting species. An interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone, only you're not. See, in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable, is each other.” ― Carl Sagan, Contact
We are all the same, different countries, different genders, different levels of education, different experiences and we're all the same.
Just watched that movie again 3 weeks ago.
Of course, but your suggestions have been getting me thinking. I do want to date my wife. Not get back into our marriage, but to date her. Not be friends, although that may have to precede the dating, but to woo her again. I'm going to bring up w/ my coach going a bit beyond just being attractive when around her. We can go ahead and sell the house and live apart, for however long while we figure out if we can rekindle the spark and develop a better set R dynamics. How to do that without scaring her further away (because she is scared - under all that anger is fear of not being loved and cherished) is the tricky part. I'm sure DB coach will turn that impulse into something productive even if it wasn't what I intended.
No matter. I'll sit on until Tuesday.
As always, very wise asitis.
BTW, in case you are wondering why those of us who have some training in counseling and Rs can't fix our own marriage, my good friend in the program who has a MA in marriage and family therapy, just had her long-time boyfriend break up with her. She's really good, has good instincts and insights when it comes to my sitch, but I'm having to talk her down from doing things she knows don't work. I keep saying, "you know that that won't work..." And she keeps responding, yes, you're right. And then it is to the next topic & I we go through the routine again. I feel really bad for her, as she is going through a lot with other demands on her, and didn't need this. It is fairly clear that her BF has a couple issues (I was able to peg them immediately, which she confirmed, but had forgotten). In the fog of BD, even someone with the knowledge and instincts flails.
So to everyone out there struggling, go easy on yourself. It happens to all of us. It doesn't means she's not a good MC, because she is. It means we all need to turn to others when it's us.
So are you saying that therapists aren't human!? If so, you've just shattered an illusion. :-)
Seriously though, thank you for being so open, it is very easy to think the person sitting in the other comfy chair during a session is super-human, it's nice to have it confirmed they have failings too.
Hey as, thank you for all of your insight. I try to read just about everything you post...it is helpful.
About the therapists being human. All I've ever seen are very detached and understandable. My last session two weeks ago he actually got choked up when I was discussing my pain and determination. It was nice to feel like he was more than a robot and he actually cares about my family (even though he has not met them).
Anyways didn't even think about that till you shared so thank you!
Been reading Storms Can't Hurt the Sky As. Great recommendation and lots of gems of getting through this experience with the most knowledge gained and composure kept.
Appreciate it and you. Man hug.
PP
In my book, the best therapists/counselors are those who show they are human in response to their client's humanity. That said, we'd go crazy if we let our clients' moods pull us around by the nose. And, some client's want desperately for their counselor to be superhuman and save them. There are good counselors and bad counselors, but there are no perfect ones for everyone. Most of us work well for most of our clients. None of us work well for everyone. Period. And, certainly none of us work well for ourselves. We all need help, as part of our advantage is being able to not be too enmeshed in the client's situation.
When I interact with my fellows, it is as friends with the skills of counselor, but that is still different than how we would interact in a therapeutic relationship. We offer each other a lot more advice, for instance. But, we've also built up our relationships over time, and talk the same language. We still need our own therapists no matter how good our friendships are. It's not either/or, but both/and.
So are you saying that therapists aren't human!? If so, you've just shattered an illusion. :-)
Seriously though, thank you for being so open, it is very easy to think the person sitting in the other comfy chair during a session is super-human, it's nice to have it confirmed they have failings too.
The dharma transmitted teachers I have in my Buddhist practice are human also. They wouldn't be able to relate, empathize, and help if they weren't. There is not overcoming. Sorry to break it to you all. There is just working better with what life hands us. And when it's our own sh*t, we all struggle. Thankfully. Imagine a life in which we didn't. I mean really. It would be so dull and lack growth. We wouldn't be able to become more enlightened and skilful in practice if we didn't remain human and struggle with the same sh*t we all do. We never overcome. And that's a really, really great thing when you think deeply about it.
You are so right asitis. If life was the uneventful idyl that many seem to wish for, it would soon become very boring. The peaks and troughs make for an interesting and fulfilling life, even if there's stuff in it we'd rather not have.
So two days of good DBing (at least according to my coach). First, W & I were conferring on some things in her office, and a related subject came up so I let her know that I still loved her, that I knew we needed to live apart for a good while no matter what, as she needs to feel like she has a space & life she feels in control of and because it would be tense otherwise. That said, I'd like to become friends and start dating her again once the dust of negotiating an agreement was settled. She said that she'd like to start getting together to talk about things not related to our R or the kids in a few months, but the stress of negotiating a D was all she could take right now. I agreed, and said that is part of why I am not dragging my feet on getting to an agreement.
I told her that I didn't care out the M or getting D or whether we just negotiated a long-term separation, what I wanted was her to be my friend, lover, and co-parent. I didn't want someone else, and despite some of the things she has done that have hurt, I still do love her. I also mentioned that we both needed anything like that to go slowly so we could re-build trust and the bonds, and how any therapist worth their salt knows that this is possible, but doesn't come before both members of the couple put some effort into the R. We aren't at that stage right now.
She didn't stop me, but she did close the door so I could continue with her feeling a bit less exposed in case she broke down. I reaffirmed that I agreed that she needs to be in charge or her life for a while and that any steps back towards each other can only happen when she is not afraid that I'll be pushing for reconciliation.
Afterwards, we talked about the lack of break up sex and how long we have both gone without. I of course offered no-strings-attached solutions to our mutual problem, which didn't seem to raise her hackles.
Ran into her a few minutes later going down stairs, and told her I really liked that dress on her, and that I just liked dress, but that it was especially nice on her. She agreed and then said she wished it had sleeves so she didn't need to wear a cardigan w/ it when it wasn't warm and cut so low that she had to wear a tank under it. I told her that I sure didn't mind how low it was cut. Then said my goodbyes and went off to a meeting. Sort of drive-by flirting.
So today W said she had talked to the mediator I had found through my contacts. She was supposed to schedule a meeting for us. Instead she said the mediator strongly recommended cooperative law for us, over having someone self-represent. She went ahead and scheduled a meeting with her to have her be her L and would forward a list the L had of others in the area who did cooperative law.
I was dumbfounded at her making a decision without consulting on how to proceed with something that was supposed to be collaborative & cooperative. And that she in a sense was poaching the L I found to do mediation. I also raised that I didn't think the alternative was for one of us to self-represent and based on what I knew I didn't think cooperative law was clearly better for us.
I asked that we go back to the idea of us meeting w/ this woman as mediator and explore the path ahead before committing. W was baffled that I wanted to consult w/ this mediator when this person had so clearly said that cooperative law was the better approach. I responded that I wasn't so sure that she would say this if she understood that my intention was to have a mediator help us with most of the issues and then we'd both consult Ls (possibly cooperative Ls at that point) so that we both had legal advice. W couldn't grasp my point and the distinction. I'm the one who has researched this, and she was making a decision I wasn't comfortable with based solely on a 5 minute phone conversation with this L (w/ the kids nagging her in the background) based on supposed advice that suggested that W & L were not communicating clearly and that what I was wanting to explore was option C.
Anyway, W acknowledged the screw up on poaching the L at least. She also said that her pattern has been when negotiating w/ me that she starts to get stressed & confused, and therefore doesn't express or attend to her needs. I acknowledged this, and was just asking that we sit down with the mediator present to help us arrive at an agreement that W felt comfortable with. I also raised that having 2 Ls involved with multiple meetings was not just more expensive, but would likely slow things down, as we had to find times for all 4 of us to meet. Further, one of us would have to find a second L from among the list, which could further slow things down.
W was getting very stressed. So we got back on what we agreed about, then about how this was a big life decision that we wanted to get behind us but not at the expense of us both being comfortable. She said she just wanted time to think because she was feeling confused at the moment.
I reassured her that I didn't want her to be in that position, that I understood, and wanted her to feel comfortable. All I was asking for is that we sit down w/ the mediator and talk through, that I may come to agree with the cooperative law approach, and she may change her mind once we talk through the issue. It was one meeting, not a delay of months.
She went back to her office to cry. Felt bad for her, but she is bringing this on and I'm not being unreasonable. I had to confer on the kids and another issue, so I sent her an e-mail, and included that this was stressful on both of us, I appreciated that we are able to talk this through, that I was concerned with all of getting what was best, that I had repeatedly gone along with her rather than resisting even though I didn't always agree with her and didn't plan to change. I added that on this matter, if it was just a matter of I preferred X and she preferred Y, unless there was a show-stopper, if we couldn't agree I would choose her approach. It wasn't worth in my book, and it wasn't who I was.
We'll see how she handles this, but I've given her the tentative win in a way that gives her the best shot at stepping back and reconsidering the idea of the meeting. As I pointed out, cooperative law requires cooperation to work, I'm cooperating, and it wouldn't work without her also being willing to cooperate. I would respect that she is insecure about protecting her interests, and that I was factoring that into my decision-making.
It was tense and stressful, and she may be unsettled and upset, but I showed w/ both words & deeds that she was getting someone who would support her with full awareness that she has a pattern of not caring for herself. Even while it was stressful and unpleasant, she had a partner who would work well with her in this very tough time. I'd bet that she's not happy with me right now, and there is nothing I can do to have her see that this was fundamentally different than the past dynamics, but I walked the walk and planted a seed.
The fun continues. I have the kids tonight for father-son dinner. So, at least I can put today behind me knowing I did well and enjoy my time with my kids.
Asitis, some big steps, congratulations.
Now is the time to not get ahead of yourself, plan what you are going to do to continue the wooing.
Keep it light, keep it infrequent but enough. Gently, gently. A plan will help make sure you do that or else there is the chance that you will over step, smother, or something that'll set things off into a tailspin.
I'm not pouring cold water here, just sounding a note of caution to ensure you continue setting out breadcrumbs for your wife to follow as throwing the whole loaf of even a complete slice will frighten her off and you'll potentially be back to square one with even more work to do.
Thanks for the warning. DB coach & I talked through this pitfall as well. Don't make a habit of flirting, and when I do, it is always drive-by. Make the comment and exit. That way it can't become uncomfortable.
Also, we are working on changing our housing arrangement so that I can move into the apartment while protecting my interest in the house. That will give us both more space.
And, we need to get through the negotiation phase and at least have an agreement before she is going to be possibly able to relax a bit. Yesterday was planting a seed for the future. It needs to lie fallow a bit before it can break dormancy. Then a little food, water, and weeding (sorry, I'm a serious gardener) might help nurture a healthy plant growing.
So just dropped the kids off w/ W. I asked if my e-mail helped. She sighed and said yes - thanks. I told her I know it's hard, but we'll get through it; I'm here for you and I'm onboard, understand, and am working to make this work for all of us. She thanked me again. And then light-hearted talk about the kids and this weekend (I'm taking them over at the apartment rather than our usual switch - kids are excited, I don't have to move, and W is happy to be able to get some things done around the house wo/ the kids underfoot).
A very tense day at times, but a very, very good one. Fighting and conflict can be very good for our Rs if handled right. I'm very happy with my keeping the eye on the important things - being the thoughtful, supportive, spouse who is willing to give ground for the good of the other and the R while still standing up for myself and what I believe is right. It was a good reminder that in the heat of the moment, it may feel very stressful and full of danger, but it can be a very good thing to go through for the R.
W was in her PJs when I dropped them off. It was hard to resist. They weren't particularly sexy, just regular old pants and top, but there is only one layer between the feeling of her body under the touch of your hand. That is a magical thing (at least for me). I miss that a lot. I'm glad she felt relaxed enough around me to be wearing them when I dropped the kids off. It was a long, hard day for her. I really don't think she was conscious of what she was doing by being in them when I came, and I don't want to make too much of whether or not in meant anything significant that unconsciously she seemed to be showing a level of trust and comfort with me, but it was a positive end of day. Still, I so badly wanted to run my hand over the curve of her a$$ in those damned PJs. So badly.
Asitis, I am so impressed with you! You handled the mediator/L conflict beautifully with kindness, patience, and compassion. What a fine example of good will you are!
Can I just say I found your pj musings to be oddly romantic...the longing, the feeling - all unspoken at the time. That was really sweet!
There was lots of longing. I really do love my W. As my DB coach and I talked about: I'll settle for someone less, but I really don't want to. I don't care about the M in the sense of the legal arrangement.
And, it not about my longings right now. It is about what is good for her. Still, I'm going to be thinking about tonight for a while. Touch has always been my love language, and it is very powerful in me. W doesn't really get how significant it is to me, as she sees it somehow as sullied a bit by male horniness. It is so much more. Just the feel and the feeling I can impart to her with a touch. Very little I want more than to touch her tenderly. OK, this is getting really over the top sappy.
Sappy, true. But I do understand.
I find it admirable and a fine quality that you hold your W in such high regard. That's a bit harder to find around here after time has passed.
I can see the fear she has. I can see the difficulty she has feeling like she is in control of her life. There is some deep socialization there to not be able to feel like she can keep her interest and needs in mind, and then to stand up for herself. That fear is driving a lot of what is going on. How can you not feel a deep compassion and care when someone you love is struggling like that? It may not mean that our M can be saved, but sometimes there are things that are more important than the legal arrangement. Someone you love deeply and have committed to support is suffering and struggling. You do what you can without letting them take you and the others you love down with them.
Besides, we are able to talk this through. We are able to work together for the good of our boys and with the long-term health of our R in mind, even if we disagree on how best to do that. There is a lot to admire and respect in that, in both of us individually, and us as a couple. She is a loving mother to my beloved boys. I don't agree with her choices, but I understand them. You look around and see the other people who have or are going through this, and we are not going through anything close to how bad most go through. Of course, we still might, but so far.
Even people I respect as warm, loving people, will tell me you want an L who can not be adversarial if that works, but who are really good at playing hardball if necessary for your interests. For all that I can fault my W for some of her choices, she very clear that that is a path she wants to avoid at all costs, and that I share with her. That takes a lot during a very difficult time in our R, in which there are strong - often unconscious - impulses to hurt and to see blame to protect oneself from the guilt of what they are asking for. Having a little understanding of this helps one to see the person differently and begin dancing the dance a bit more healthily.
Busy, but good. S6 has been struggling a bit, most likely from starting to transition from them staying in the house to me staying at the apartment & them coming over (plus they put them through violent intruder drills last week - does more harm than good IMHO). Whatever the reason, it was a tough weekend for him.
We had fun going to our rec center with his daycare on Saturday night for lots of fun in the pool. Had to run over to the house to get the kids' & my swim trunks. Txt'ed W to ask if she'd be out so I could do so. She said she wasn't sure, so just come whenever. When I get there, she's in the shower. Comes out of the bathroom with just a robe on, holding it closed as as the belt is missing. Starts chatting w/ the kids and me. I wanted to say: "You're naked under there. WTF do you think the impact on someone who has gone wo/ for a year and a half and still wants to be w/ his W would be to see here w/ just some fleece between ..." Definitely not someone who is currently feeling uncomfortable to be seen in her PJs or robe around me.
On Monday, she screwed up a meeting she was supposed to go to. I was just leaving work to go pick up S6 at school. Got a call from W letting me know that she screwed up and therefore didn't have the meeting, knew I was busy and wanted to see if I wanted her to go pick S6 up. This was the first act of initiated consideration towards me in a whole long time. I said yes, turned around. Passed each other on path between parking lot & office. She waives, I thank her again and say I really appreciate your thinking of my needing to get work done.
She gets to S6's school, turns out the snacks I delivered never got from the school office to the teacher. She txts me: Ughh! Snacks never got taken back to Mrs. X. It wasn't criticism, just sharing a little wrinkle in the day. She hasn't initiated txt just passing on something about her day in a whole long time either.
Strong mixed messages coming from that one. Definitely a change. Not making much of it, as she is still wanting to pursue negotiations. I still think she feels driven to hammer out a settlement so she can relax a bit. Still likely needs to either live on her own for a long while or D before she can address some of her issues. For now, keep doing what I'm doing.
We have similarities As, definitely getting mixed messages. Spoke to a woman tonight who told me during her D she saw her H with another woman and immediately spent the evening with him. She told me she had a lot of her own conflict around "I don't want him, but no one else can have him".
Does seem like your W is either more comfortable with you, less angry at you, or relaxing a bit from what you've posted. Maybe it is the pursuit of the negotiations that's letting her let her guard down a bit.
Like you've said, it's a long game. Keep doing what's leading you to these little wins and hopefully they'll keep adding up.
How's your meditation practice?
PP
Asitis, You are on the right path, the only path that may get you to the destination your looking for.
Is your wife sending you mixed messages?
If so, do you think it's at a conscious or unconscious level ?
As, I have got the same kind of "tease" a few weeks back. Came out of the shower when I arrived to pick up S4 wearing nothing but a towel! I felt like a 12 year old boy looking at a playboy! I don't know if it was on purpose or just how it happened but it messed with me for days!
Pigpen, I have heard the same things about the walk away being territorial. I could definatly see it happen in my sitch, but she would only be back because of jealousy and not because she wants ME. Believe me, the thought has crossed my mind to play that card. That was very early on and before I found this website and gained the knowledge of how things actually play out. It may work for a few week or few month "fling" but it will solve nothing long term.
As, maybe moving through the legal proceedings is making her "relax" a little, and feel like the pressure is off, so she isn't in "fighting" mode any more, if that makes sense at all?
My primary love language is touch too, so I get it, just the touch on my arm or back when he walks by would mean so much to me, but he gives me so much space when we walk past each other in the house, obvious he is going out of his way to NOT touch me.
Yes. DB Coach & I are both in agreement that moving forward to settlement is the best path. A lot of WAWs can't allow themselves to relax until they have that control and the stress of the negotiations are behind them.
Not surprisingly, W has been more her usual chilly self the last couple days. Doesn't phase me, as I was expecting it. She's also got a cold. I asked her if she wanted to be involved w/ the trick-or-treating, as Halloween is my night w/ the boys. She did make some nice puma costumes for them, which they look very cute in. I told her how much I appreciated what she did, how I still look back on the Halloween my mom made us tiger costumes & I'm sure the boys would too, and thanked her for going the the effort for them.
Not much to report. I'll try to drop in on others' threads over the next couple days.
Your a good man Asitis, doing a good job.
Thanks mutatio. There is a good person in all of us. Even our WASs. We like to think, if I just knew this earlier. We didn't, and neither did our WASs. I can see why for my W,it may be too late for us. I can see that she is hurting. I know that some of this is self-inflicted, externalizing blame and redirecting harm inflicted on her by others onto me. I can see just how "unfair" it is that my W doesn't get that my seeing all this means I am the H she shouldn't run from. But, I also see that we don't have the luxury of "if I only knew this earlier." That is the way life works. We know what we know now. We do the best we can with that imperfect, limited, flawed, impartial, incomplete information we have, but we can't change the "if I only knew" by some slight of hand.
Sad, but liberating/healing at the same time.
The above rings so true. In spite of current behavior, there is a truly wonderful person buried somewhere in my H. I wish I could help him, but realize I need to get out of the way for now so that his focus on me as the reason for his unhappiness is able to fade. It just breaks my heart. If I ever want him to have a chance to heal, though, I need to let go.
I love your wisdom and willingness to share it. Thank you so much.
Extra strong longing and horniness seems to be running strong the last few days on the forum. I'm right there with you. Really, really want a bed mate,and given that I'd still be uncomfortable with someone else, I'm struggling to resist the temptation to invite W over tonight. I just want to bed that woman very, very badly. Not anything else really. It's not just horniness, but an intense desire to lose myself in lovemaking with her for a night.
A well, this too shall pass.
Missing you Asitis. I hope this post finds you well.
I second that. Miss you on here
Here's the new thread:
As It Is, Part 6