I am currently separated from my wife of 17 1/2 years who left a year ago to move in with her parents. She said “this marriage is over.” She wavered for a while afterward and I was told by one of my kids that she cried for days after she left, but now says she absolutely sure does not want to reconcile.
We tried marriage counseling for a couple months and my WAS committed to the MC that she would give it 6 months per the request of the MC. We were meeting individually weekly and then together every two weeks. After two months of her not even making an attempt to reconcile, she quit and said " I need to find out who I am."
I tried talking with her after that and did everything the experts say not to do (begging, convincing, reminding her of all the good times, etc.) Even after I read and was told not to, I still desperately tried (and failed).
She had retained an attorney the day after she left me and then filed for legal separation the next month after she had told the MC she would wait until our next meeting together.
A few months later we were in court on a day that just happened to be our 17th anniversary and she revealed that she was changing her filing to dissolution. I was absolutely devastated, as she kept going back and forth and telling me she didn't know what would happen in the future.
Here is a little background on her:
She is 43 years old and has lived with her parents 6 times since she turned 18. She has all the traits of someone with Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder (PAPD)and also has a an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with her parents. She has left me three times during our marriage and always runs to them. They blame me for everything that happens and deny that their daughter has any mental health issues. This is her second marriage.
To my knowledge, she has not been officially diagnosed with PAPD and the therapist she is seeing says it is not an issue, but I have lived with her for nearly two decades and I am absolutely sure. I have had two clinicians (both of whom have met with her) suggest to me that it is BPD. I am quite familiar with BPD, as I have been studying it for more than 20 years. Regardless, there are issues she needs to work on, but will not and will never accept responsibility for anything. I have caught myself apologizing for things that are not my fault in order to smooth things over.
A few weeks ago she was pleasant with me and said when I asked, that she might consider holding off on the divorce, as it has not yet been entered into judgment. I told her since we are legally separated, we are basically divorced now anyway, so there is no rush. A couple weeks later, she told me she definitely wants a divorce. She said “we can get the kids into counseling, but we are not doing family counseling.” She said “you abused me”. I told her she abused me. She seemed to think that was ridiculous, but it is true. I have not always been perfect, but many times, I have been sucked into her “crazy-making” behavior and exhibited what is known as “mutual projection”. Sometimes she has treated me very well and seemed like she was head over heels in love with me and my best friend, but I can also say that she has treated me worse than any human I have ever met. Now she says "I need to move on with my life" She claimed I abused her because two years ago, she overheard me saying that she is an attention wh*re." I apologized for it at the time and it that is nothing compared to the things she has called me.
As mentioned above, she is living with her parents. Her parents have frequently interfered with our marriage and blamed everything that has ever happened between us on me and have also suggested that I verbally abused her even though I know that she was verbally abused by them when she was growing up.
She says she is happy now. She says she is going to get her own place, but most likely never will, as her parents don’t really want her to and she is too scared to be on her own. She never has been, as she was married at 18 (I am her second husband). She thinks her parents are the greatest people in the world (or at least she is trying to convince herself of that). If anyone here has read Negative Love Syndrome by Bob Hoffman, you know what is going on here. She is now getting the approval she always wanted from them and is now “happy” because of it. That is my theory anyway.
The problem is, since her parents blame everyone else for everything and have said to me “we know she has difficulty regulating her moods, but we don’t think she is mentally ill”, there is no way she is going to get the help she needs. She knows I have thought in the past that she may be a borderline and it infuriates her that I think that. I must mention that my 24 year old daughter’s mother, to whom I was never married, is a borderline and my wife hates her. She doesn’t like being put in the same category with my ex. She and her family seem to think they are above having any issues and that it is always someone else that is the problem. My wife is currently in counseling, but I am not sure it is going to help unless she is honest with herself and her parents stay out of it, which is unlikely, as they involve themselves in everyone’s business and don’t allow anyone to make their own decisions.
I am the only one who really wants to help her, but she doesn’t see it. I really do care about my wife and want to keep the family together but she really does not care and is in denial about what it is doing to the kids.
Also, her 20 year old son moved back in with me three weeks after my wife left. He said he was tired of being used and that the environment was too toxic over there. When he deiced to move back in with me, my wife’s parents absolutely let him have it. Her father told him he had betrayed that side of the family. Since then, he has tried to help her by telling her she has a mental illness and told her if she didn’t stop being selfish and treating people poorly, she would not be invited to his wedding, his graduation or be allowed around his kids. She cussed him out and said “fine” and then left. She went home and told her family that he had disowned her. Now when she comes to pick up the kids, she will not come in if he is here. BTW, he is a very nice young man. He does not drink, do drugs, go to parties, etc., and he and his fiancé plan to remain celibate until they are married. He did not want things to turn out that way, but says he is at peace now and will not have anything to do with her or her family.
With all that said, I want to make it clear that I (like any partner in a marriage) am not blameless, but I have never abused her in any way, nor have I ever cheated on her. I adore her and my entire goal in life was to have a happy family. Mt step-son and many others say “you can do better” and I am sure there are women out there who will treat me well, but I have an unconditional love for my wife and want her to come back (as long as she seeks treatment) and learns to apologize for the things she has done. I have been very distraught over this and have cried every day for the last year.
Just last year a couple weeks before she left, she was talking about retirement and how much we would have and what we were going to do. I questioned our MC about the possibility of a MLC, but she said didn’t think so because she has these personality issues. I think she has always had one foot out the door, but I also think there is a possibility of a MLC.
Any suggestions from anyone on here would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Clay234-
Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.
What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)?
Clay234
Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.
What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)
I think you might have missed a few things in my post. As mentioned, this is her second marriage and her ex husband says that she did the same things with him (compulsive lying, hiding money, manipulating, temper tantrums). I also mentioned that I have apologized for many things even though they were not my fault. Of course some things were, but not everything. She NEVER apologizes and always plays the victim.
I understand that no one is perfect, but I have done everything I can to be a good husband. I would never cheat on her, don't drink, smoke, do drugs or gamble and would never raise a hand toward her, our her in danger or verbally abuse her. ( AND THAT IS NOT IMPLYING I AM PERFECT). Of course I have flaws. We all do.
I have tried several times to get her to commit to MC, but she will not try. She is never content with anything and always wants something new or different.
As mentioned, her parents have interfered many times and have actually showed up at our house because she had called them when she was having a "panic attack" while we were having an argument.. If she doesn't get what she wants, she either pouts or gets angry.
As mentioned above, her son moved back in with me because he was tired of being manipulated by her. She blamed My oldest daughter, who was 14 at the time for her (my wife) depression and thoughts of suicide.
Also, we had a MC offer to mediate handle the assets for is instead of wasting money on attorneys. She refused. Ivalso told her we could take the equity from our other houses and buy her a condo near by since she said she wants and needs to be on her own. She refused that as well. At this point, we have spent more than $35K on attorney's fees when it wasn't even necessary.
If someone who is reading this is not familiar with PAPD, they MIGHT get the wrong idea, but I know she has these issues and it has been mentioned by two different clinicians. She says she has been depressed all her life.
You ask what she would say? She would say everything is my fault because that is what she is saying now. She also says everything on her first marriage was a his fault and has told me stories about him over the past 18 years that I am now finding out are not true and the things he is telling me he did, was actually her.
I am not disparaging my wife. She is often, (but not always)difficult to deal with. I have an unconditional love for her and want my family back together.
It is easy to misunderstand someone's tone and story in a forum and I am sure I could have made things a little more clear and less jumbled.My main reason for coming on here was for advice and to see if anyone had similar stories and were able to save their marriages.
I have told her repeatedly that we can work on counseling individually and together and we can help each other with our issues and communication between us but she refuses and has always refused.
Like I mentioned earlier, others have said "you can do better", but I live my wife and want to help her and save the family.
Any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
She has all the traits of someone with Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder (PAPD)and also has a an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with her parents. She has left me three times during our marriage and always runs to them. They blame me for everything that happens and deny that their daughter has any mental health issues. This is her second marriage.
To my knowledge, she has not been officially diagnosed with PAPD and the therapist she is seeing says it is not an issue, but I have lived with her for nearly two decades and I am absolutely sure.
Do you think YOU can FIX her?
Why were you attracted to someone like this in the first place?
It sounds like she didn't learn anything from her first marriage breakup and is repeating what she already knows how to do.
What can you do differently?
Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.
What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)
I think you might have missed a few things in my post.
Im not sure I did. But I will listen...As mentioned, this is her second marriage and her ex husband says that she did the same things with him (compulsive lying, hiding money, manipulating, temper tantrums). I also mentioned that I have apologized for many things even though they were not my fault. Of course some things were, but not everything. She NEVER apologizes and always plays the victim.
OK. These are problems of hers...I understand that no one is perfect, but I have done everything I can to be a good husband. I would never cheat on her, don't drink, smoke, do drugs or gamble and would never raise a hand toward her, our her in danger or verbally abuse her. ( AND THAT IS NOT IMPLYING I AM PERFECT). Of course I have flaws. We all do.
OK. In your eyes, you were a great H. Got it.I have tried several times to get her to commit to MC, but she will not try. She is never content with anything and always wants something new or different.
Unfortunately, theres not a lot of benefit to MC to get someone to recommit to the MR. The MC is really focused on trying to improve the marriage. So, I think even if you did get her to go, it would not do what you hope.As mentioned, her parents have interfered many times and have actually showed up at our house because she had called them when she was having a "panic attack" while we were having an argument.. If she doesn't get what she wants, she either pouts or gets angry.
OK...more of her problemsAs mentioned above, her son moved back in with me because he was tired of being manipulated by her. She blamed My oldest daughter, who was 14 at the time for her (my wife) depression and thoughts of suicide.
Yep. Her again.Also, we had a MC offer to mediate handle the assets for is instead of wasting money on attorneys. She refused. Ivalso told her we could take the equity from our other houses and buy her a condo near by since she said she wants and needs to be on her own. She refused that as well. At this point, we have spent more than $35K on attorney's fees when it wasn't even necessary.
Now you are trying to SOLVE her problems.If someone who is reading this is not familiar with PAPD, they MIGHT get the wrong idea, but I know she has these issues and it has been mentioned by two different clinicians. She says she has been depressed all her life.
Her againYou ask what she would say? She would say everything is my fault because that is what she is saying now. She also says everything on her first marriage was a his fault and has told me stories about him over the past 18 years that I am now finding out are not true and the things he is telling me he did, was actually her.
Her againI am not disparaging my wife. She is often, (but not always)difficult to deal with. I have an unconditional love for her and want my family back together.
Her again. Also, you love her.It is easy to misunderstand someone's tone and story in a forum and I am sure I could have made things a little more clear and less jumbled.My main reason for coming on here was for advice and to see if anyone had similar stories and were able to save their marriages.
Nope. I thought it was well written. Im pretty sure I understand. I have told her repeatedly that we can work on counseling individually and together and we can help each other with our issues and communication between us but she refuses and has always refused.
Trying to solve her problems again.Like I mentioned earlier, others have said "you can do better", but I live my wife and want to help her and save the family.
Any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
OK. Reading through my comments above, you probably think Im a complete jerk. Im NOT trying to do that. I just wanted to show you what you wrote and what I took from it. And Im not your wife....imagine what SHE would take from it.
Heres the thing, there is nothing you can do to change her. If she will do anything to divorce you, theres not a single thing you can do. Its not like youre going to chain her up in your basement, right?
So, what can you do? You can work on you! Shes not going to come back to the same relationship she had. So, if in a year, she wakes up and realizes what she lost, she isnt going to come back if you are the same person that you were and she would be in the same relationship she was in. So, you need to grow. You need to learn from the mistakes you made and change them. So, I was asking about you so that we could understand what mistakes you made that led to this point so that we can get to work on fixing them!
To be a little more clear, her initial reason for leaving a year ago was because she says I am angry all the time. I have gotten angry at some of the things she has done and sometimes gotten angrier at her and the kids than I should have. Nobody is blameless in a marriage and I am no exception. Putting things in perspective, I now realize now that I got more upset at things that now I see as no big deal, but I have also been told that it wouldn't have mattered because she is never satisfied.
I have been told by one of the psychologists/MC who saw us, that they (PAs and Borderlines) don't know they are doing some of the things they are doing. That is really hard to understand when someone is standing in front of you making you doubt what you know is a fact and lying about things he/she doesn't need to lie about.
If I had understood these things before, I MIGHT have been able to take a different approach to how I handled things.
Well in that case, you have something you can work on. In the meantime, Azz is right. You'll never change her behavior or actions. Nothing will stop her from leaving or divorcing you if that's what she wants to do. It sounds like she would need a great deal of professional help before returning to a relationship. If she will not seek help and accept responsibility for her actions, you don't want someone like that. Take care and hang in there.
I think that at the moment you should focus on you and see what you could change to become a better Clay. From what you told us it seems that she has few issues but at the end of the day she is 43, and if she thinks she is depressed only her can make the first step. It has to come from her, as if someone pushes it on her she'll blame that person, and there will be no result because she'd have gone again her will.
Think about what you'd like to become and be strong for your kids. Unfortunately we can't chose our in-laws :-)
Clay,
I left my response to your postings over on the MLC Forum.
It has to come from her, as if someone pushes it on her she'll blame that person, and there will be no result because she'd have gone again her will.
Agreed.
Thank you for some of you that understand. If I were coming on here to say " I beat my wife. What can I do to get her back?" That would be something completely different. I never implied that I was the perfect husband and I made that VERY clear several times. I needed to paint the picture of the situation to make it clear what I am dealing with. She never mentioned things were bothering her. I also mentioned above the things I did and am working on.
I did not say I was a great husband, but I was dedicated and faithful. I have doubted myself in the past because she basically told me I was all these horrible things and other have reassured me that it is not all me. And yes, I am a good husband. Not perfect, but good.
I am also not trying to fix her. I don't think she is broken and she is not a non-person. She has many wonderful qualities and that is what makes me want to hold onto her. Last year when we were in MC, she said she is afraid she will like being on her own, but also said she is afraid she is losing her best friend.
She needs help and I know I cannot make her get it. I also mentioned that she was wavering on coming back and has changed her mind several times over the past year (or at least said she was). I also mentioned that we have had many good times together.
I never implied I was trying to solve her problems. I took the advice of the MC and the required online parenting class for the court and wrote up a trial separation (basically plagiarized it from the online site) that included renting or buying her a separate place. It would have been a good start for her to actually know what it is like to be on her own like she wants, figure things out and work on things more amicably. She has not been able to do that and unfortunately, she is getting advice from those who are biased and do not know the real situation. Both husband and wife have their own sides of the situation and some family members become biased.
Again, I have been in therapy for the past year and am working on myself. I know there are things I could have done differently. Unfortunately, we don't always see ourselves from another's eyes, but there were a lot of things she never communicated to me.
I believe most marriages are salvageable, but I understand both have to be willing, but I thought that was the whole point of this site. It wouldn't have done me any good to come on here and say "my wife left for good and I don't know why. I needed to provide a little background.
I just wanted to see if anyone had similar situations and advice. I was also trying to find out if this sounds to anyone like a MLC.
Hello Clay,
I'm so sorry for the position you are in.
You certainly have a complex situation and the good news is that there is much that can be done.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Clay,
How are you doing? Please update us on how things are going.
Latest posting of Clay's from a thread over on the MLC Forum:
I haven't signed the papers for final judgement to return to my attorney. I am stalling and I know this is going to make W angry, but I am trying to figure out a way to talk to her one more time before it is entered into judgement to ask if she will consider MC. Let us become friends again, work on ourselves and then see if we can make it work. I know I cannot control her and I am not trying to do that. I am just trying to prevent something that is irreversible and that she may regret.
I am pretty sure she will say "no" because she has been saying that through her atty for several months. She says "we don't belong together. We are too different." She brings up things from 18 years ago and says "That should have been a clue to me not to marry you."
I think subconsciously (or maybe even consciously)her main motivation is pleasing her parents, as I am quite sure they encouraged the divorce.
The kids are already acting differently, but she doesn't think it has effected them that much. She said "the kids wanted this to happen". They have told me otherwise, but W says they are just telling me that because they don't want to hurt my feelings. D2 said "I hope you can be friends"
When I was in Afghanistan 5 years ago, she was the best friend I ever had. She would e-mail me regularly, send me sexy notes and pictures and tell me all the things she wanted to do to and with me upon my return and gave me the best support I could ask for. The conditions over there didn't matter to me because I always thought of her and the things she would write to me. She would go to the store and get whatever I asked for and rush to the post office with it. It was amazing. I was looking through the e-mails last night and I am wondering where that person is. I cannot get her to see through the fog to those times. I know that it is all-or-nothing thinking, but I am too stubborn to give up.
I started to write her a letter last night.
Here is part of what I said:
"I wanted to take this time to write to you one last time before the transition in our status as a couple. I know we will be communicating over the next few years, but not like we have in the past. So I hope you will read and listen to what I have to say"
I apologized to her for some of the things I had said in the past that may have hurt her and some of the times even when I had a reason to be upset, I overreacted. I told her that although I am not 100% responsible for everything, I would admit my faults and take responsibility for those.
"I am sorry you want to end our marriage and our friendship. I had wished you would reconsider and give it some time with you being on your own before making this decision. I feel like I am losing my best friend and it hurts."
"I will sign the papers and return them to my attorney this week"
"Before I close, I want to take this time to thank you for all you did for me and the support you gave me over the years and that I will never forget (this is what makes it hurt)."
Then I made a list of all the things I remember she had done for me over the years. I want to remember the good times.
I just don't know if I should make one more attempt or let the D go through and hope for another chance after the dust settles or make one more attempt at this.
Any advice from the forum? (I am going to duck my head and wait for the replies)
Edited by Clay234 (Yesterday at 07:53 PM)
Posting from WhyUs to Clay:
Clay,
I do not think u should send that letter. Telling her all those things is a waste of time. She will not be open to it right now. There is a last resort letter that people do write but it is not like your letter.
You will not be able to sppeal to her emotions by right now. From my understanding the letter should validate how she feels. You should let her know u do not agree with the divorce. Then tell her you will respect her decision to go because you care for her.
Job,
I did take your advice and mention what you suggested in my letter. I did not send it though. I called her last night and asked her if we could meet somewhere and talk. Surprisingly, she agreed. We talked about the kids for about an hour and then I told her I regretted some of the things I had said over the years and realized some of the things I made a big deal about were actually no big big deal. I would like to share one of those things on here because I had a revelation a couple days ago and I cannot figure out why I didn't see it before.
A couple years ago before D's wedding, W told me over the phone while I was working on the opposite coast,that she bought a new dress for the event. Since she has quite a few dresses (mostly summer dresses), I couldn't figure out why she couldn't just grab one out of the closet. She went on to say that since she would be accompanying a man in a tux, she should have a formal dress. Sorry, but I am a guy and I didn't understand. She said "I am the mother of the bride, I should have one". Even though I full custody since D was 6 1/2 and my wife has been around since then, she is actually the step-mother. Bio mom wasn't around much, but she was going to be there. I thought W was trying to up-stage bio-mom, so I called her and attention wh*re. I really had no idea how much the formal meant to her.
She has been bugging since we got married to take her to the Marine Corps Ball. I have been telling her that the last one I attended was in 1991 and since I do not like social functions and spend all day with these people (and 24/7 while deployed) , we would not ever go, especially since I think they are all superficial. I have always been a real stick in the mud and successfully avoided events that are referred to "mandatory fun".
I realized a couple days ago, that it was incredibly selfish of me to never take my beautiful bride to an exciting formal event like that and give her an evening to remember. I could have put up with the phonies and braggarts for one evening in order to give her a dream and I never did. I told her all that and more.
She told me that she knows she has lied to and manipulated people in order to get what she wants and doesn't feel good about it. I believe that is the first time in her life she ever admitted that.
I asked her if she would consider holding off on the D since we are all legally separated and just see how things go over time. I told her I would leave her alone and would not try to hug or kiss her, call, come by unexpectedly or expect anything from her. She said she has been doing a lot in therapy and since she has been married since she was a teenager (we married the day her other D was final)she needed to find out who she is and she really needs for this to go through. She said it is only paper, but she needs that sense of freedom. I told her I didn't agree with her decision, but I support her desire and I will not try to hold her down.
We decided to be friends and eventually do things together and possibly as a family and promised that no matter how ugly the past is, we would leave it behind and move forward from there.
She said she doesn't even know who she is yet, but thinks our personalities are are not compatible because of the way we conflict. I don't agree, but I am going to give her her space. We are getting along fine now and it is somewhat of a relief.
I would rather have a different outcome, but I think this a good start.
Sorry. I just realized the advice I took was from WhyUs. It was just re-posted in here by Job. I missed that.
Clay I am so sorry that you have got to where you are and the w did not alter her path
Ghost
Thanks Ghost. I am not giving up hope. It looks like we have figured out how to be amicable and possibly it will work out in the future, but yeah. It didn't need to be this difficult.
Clay,
One thing to remember, do not bring up the marriage/relationship w/her for now. Just be a friend, listen and if asked, provide your opinion/advice on things. She's got a lot of growing up to do and she needs to do this on her on at her own pace, i.e., it's her journey to take.
One of the main ingredients for the LBS is patience. You will need a lot of patience in the days ahead.
I think it's a good start, too, Clay. Seems today my message is "time and patience". So hard to remember when your heart is shattered...but we're here for you!
Thanks Job and Judy.
I have to try keep reminding myself of that. We are now on pleasant speaking terms and doing effectively co-parenting. Interestingly, one of the main reasons she said it was over was because we didn't agree on how to raise the kids.
As much as I want to try to hold her hand, hug her or kiss her, I am going to refrain and if we start spending time together, I am going to let her make the first move.
As far as patience goes, I usually have very little, but I am going to be patient now because this is a huge step and it is better than I thought it would be.
What she admitted to me was huge, but I know it is only scratching the surface and there is a lot of work to be done. Even she said that.
Talked to W tonight when she dropped off the kids, as we had some logistics to work out for tomorrow. I told her I signed the papers and sent them in to my attorney today. All she said was "okay". She is being "friendly", but distant. She has done this before too. Actually, she has been like that for the past year. I feel like a yo-yo. I am so impatient and impulsive that I want to ask questions, but I know it is not advised. I had a DB coach tell me that about 9 months ago. Like I said, I am not patient and I am afraid I will lose her because she is always changing what she is saying and I don't know from one day to the next what is going to happen. As a couple of therapists have mentioned, that is the "push-pull" that people like her do.
Anyway, I am still trying to find ways to be patient, but she keeps talking about her life and how we are separate. being on her own (which she isn't yet) is a new thing for her. If she ever moves out of her parents' house, she may find she doesn't like it as much as she thinks, but says she may not move out.
Again, she was pleasant today, but different than she was 3 days ago.
Clay,
I wanted to come over here to your thread and post my reply to your inquiry about resources for women in MLC.
"Clay,
There are other forums out there that address the issue of MLC for women, but you'll need to "google" for them. We aren't allowed to post them here.
Whether she worked or stayed home, the bottom line is that she feels that she missed something along the way. She has some childhood issues that need to be resolved and until she resolves them, she'll continue in crisis.
Technically, the resources would be the same and the DB techniques would apply. No matter what you find in the way of research, there is no brass ring that will wake her up and bring her back to you. You have to still allow her to go through her crisis and if she begins to reconnect, then you'll need to be patient."
As I have suggested previously on my thread, you should create a thread in the MLC Forum, whereby others will post directly to you and you can then follow your situation and see the progress that you are making along the way.
Clay,
Every person has life transitions, i.e., ages: 13, 20, 30, 40, etc. Most people are able to navigate those transitions smoothly and very seldom have a crisis take place. Why? Because they developed good, strong coping skills as they grew up.
Those who are unable to navigate some, if not all of those transitions, develop poor coping skills and when midlife looms in front of them, they can't cope. They begin to question their lives, i.e., are they where they wanted to be at this time in their lives, have I done all of the things I wanted to do, what did I miss out on and yes, they begin to get restless and when something comes along that hits the switch and they begin to detach from us, generally 18-24 months prior to the bomb, they become depressed and unhappy and think we are the reason for that unhappiness, just as they think the relationship is the problem as well.
Bottom line, it doesn't matter if she was a nun, an engineer, a stay at home mom, etc., if she had childhood issues and her coping skills are poor, she was destined to have a crisis because there are some things that she's stuffed down for years and years that have now come to the surface and need to be faced head on and dealt w/in her own way. Whether she confronts the people who stunted her emotional growth years ago or not, she will need to figure that out on her own.
The best thing you can do is let her go and leave the door ajar. It takes years for them to come thru the crisis and some will return as the people you knew and loved and others will come out the other end of the rabbit hole w/some of the habits/quirks that they picked up along the way, then there are others who won't be the same at all. And, yes, there are some that remain stuck in the rabbit hole for the rest of their lives looking for that illusive happiness and pot of gold under the rainbox. Which will your wife be? No one knows at this time.
Let her go and find a way to live your life as if she may never return. Life is far too short to sit there and wait on her. You only have one life to live...so live it. If she comes back, I will be happy for you. If she doesn't, you will have gotten stronger and learned a lot about yourself during your journey and then can move forward and hopefully have met someone who will love you for you.
For now...try not to analyze her every word, thought or behavior. It will drive you nuts if you allow it.
Hi Clay. Just finding your story now. Haven't read your entire sitch yet so sorry if you have mentioned this before....just wondering how your kids are doing during this time, has your W walked away from them?
Hi just checking in on you day by day small steps
Take care
Ghost
Hi Clay. Just finding your story now. Haven't read your entire sitch yet so sorry if you have mentioned this before....just wondering how your kids are doing during this time, has your W walked away from them?
Hi JPeg,
Very difficult to explain and if you see my original post, you will see that some people jumped all over me asking "what did you do". The reason I explained things the way I did , is because I have spent the last 18 years apologizing in order to make peace with someone who does not apologize and have done so even more inn the last year since she left and have finally gotten tired of it. My post was not in any way intended to disparage my wife. I love her very much, but become frustrated when I am always wrong.
I believe there is a possibility she is going through a MLC (and I believe has been since she was about 18-19), but we had a MC/Psych who told me she didn't think it was a MLC because she has these personality issues. I do think though there is a possibility that it is a MLC, but there is much more to it. My WAW has done quite a bit for me, but has (IMO) had one foot out the door during our entire marriage because she is rarely content with what she has.
As mentioned earlier, she told me last week, she has manipulated many people in her life to get what she wanted. I was shocked, as I have never heard her say anything like that. That was a huge step for her.
She still wants to go through with the divorce, as she said it is what she needs right now in order to feel like she is on her own, but that it is only paper, indicating that there is a possibility of a relationship now and in the future and to not worry about the symbolism of the certificate. She goes back and forth though, but we have been getting along better since we had that talk.
Many who know her, including me, think that she will not begin to grow and change until she moves out of her parents' house, but she said she might just stay there.
Not sure if I provided enough information, as there is so much to tell. I am not big on writing and trying to explain myself and my feelings on a computer screen.
One thing I know for sure, is there is no OM.
Hi Clay. Just finding your story now. Haven't read your entire sitch yet so sorry if you have mentioned this before....just wondering how your kids are doing during this time, has your W walked away from them?
I guess I missed your question.
She did not walk away from them. She originally wanted full custody with me only with them every other weekend. It was obvious at first that it was for the $$$. We now split the time with the kids.
Kids say they are doing fine, but they have been very emotional since they are split between the two houses and W has shown no respect for me (until this past week). S2 has dropped out of all of his activities and basically wants to do nothing. He also recently stole a very large sum of cash from me two weeks ago. I knew it was him, but he denied it and has been until tonight. I told him if he was honest with me, I would not call the police back out here. He finally confessed. I had to keep my word, but prior to tonight, WAW and I talked about pressing charges. He says he was angry with me because I yell a lot. I told WAW and she said she doesn't believe a word he says. He says the separation has nothing to do with his behavior, but I don't buy it.
WAW and I are on better speaking terms lately, but she still says she needs for this to go through for now.
Update:
I wasn't sure when the divorce would be final, but I found out from my 15 year old daughter about a month ago. She informed me that her mom had told her it became final on October 9th. I had no idea and thought we were still married.
I ran into ExW a few days later at the tire store. She changed her story from what she told me before when we sat down together and talked. She claimed that she never said she had manipulated a lot of people in order to get her way. She claims that what she said was that she had manipulated people in her family to get out of family events because she knew I didn't want to go. The crazy-making stories never end. She also said that her son's wife to be is going to screw up his life. He is getting married in two weeks and she will not be attending. He told her several months ago that if she didn't stop being mean to people, her would not be invited. It makes me sad for her that she will not be attending because she has chosen to be the victim and claim she wasn't invited and that he dis-owned her instead of taking responsibility for her own actions and being the adult instead of putting it on him.
As far as the kids go, they both seem to be having issues. My son who just turned 17 this week and is still home-schooled, does not want to interact with anyone except for a couple of his friends. My daughter is struggling in school, has relationship issues and has expressed to me that she is upset that we are divorced, but ExW claims that the kids wanted this to happen.'
She is still living with her parents after more than a year, but claims she will be moving into an apartment next month, but wants to make sure my job is stable first (it is a temp job), as she will have to move back in with them if I lose my job and am not able to support her financially.
I have been going to therapy weekly and am working on myself, but am still distraught over the break-up of the family.
Just rise above it buddy. Leave her flapping in the wind.
Stay strong buddy. You are not alone...
Hello all,
I have no posted on here for a while, as I have been extremely busy and have had very little time to do anything. As of September, I am employed again and the company is running me ragged. I work OT hours, but don't get OT since I am salaried. The pay is not that high either and I am still paying ExW a significant amount. She is also still living with her parents (16 months now) and doesn't pay a dime in rent or utilities. I also just found out from my D (who just started at a new high school) that she gets free lunch. I asked her why that is and she said "because my mom is poor". Last night I looked into the school lunch program and she would fit the requirements if she were living on her own, but since she lives with her parents (who make well over $100k), she doesn't qualify. I am fuming over this, as that is what the support is supposed to cover.
She has applied for a low-income apartment, but has still not moved in. I don't really think she wants to.
our communication with each other has been touch-and-go. We were sharing things with each other and having casual friendly conversations via e-mail and text, but as of a couple weeks ago, I just stopped. I did it because I have thought about everything she has done and how she destroyed the family and I just got mad. She got nearly $100K in assets and I got stuck with a house payment on a house that needs a lot of repairs. She also got 50% of the military retirement I earned while we were married. I am 50, and as a reservist I cannot collect until I am 60 (even though I have done more than 32 years). She feels entitled, but I do not see it that way because I was in for 14 years before we were married and the retirement is based on what I accomplished before that. I put in a lot of had work and time in order to get to that point. She also still does not have a job and claimed to the courts that she has been a stay-at home mom for the entire time and it will take her many years to earn anything more than something like a a house cleaning job would pay. She was nearly 26 when we married (43 now). She earned BA in business during her first marriage. The courts should have taken into account that she should have learned SOMETHING between 18 and 26. Additionally, she has already spent the money to send to the attorney who will be dividing the military retirement points, even though she claims to be "poor".
I realize the above sounds like a rant (and it is), but she seems to be getting meaner as time goes on. I have tried to read as much as possible about MLC and am still trying to understand it, but still am not ready to give up, as I want what I thought I had. She has sent mixed messages in the past 16 months about some sort of future together, but at this point seems like she wants to be enemies. She WILL NOT co-parent. She never really has though. She has been in therapy and has stated that tit will take a long time, but I just don't see her getting any better or realizing how poorly she treats other people as long as she is not on her own and is living with people who enable and encourage her behaviors.
I keep trying to think of ways to reason with her, but it has never worked before and I know it won't work now.
A lot of what I have mentioned about her is the way she has been most of the time I have known her and I am still not convinced it is a MLC. I just don't know. I know there are differing opinions on it and I have talked to different therapists who don't think it is. A couple have suggested BPD.
I have read an article on the stages of MLC and a lot of it (and what I have read here) seems to fit her personality, but I am still not sure.
I guess my question to those of you on here who may be more knowledgeable than I, is is it typical for a MLCr to become angrier and push back even more while continuing to push buttons using projective identification in order to prompt a negative response? I know I may have a false hope here, but I have never been good at not getting sucked into arguments and not allowing things to escalate. It seems like she wants to make me angry and I don't see ANY hope for a future if we continue to go to war. It is also difficult for me to not be upset with her after all she has done.
My kids also think I am a bad guy because I make them pick up after themselves. They won't do a thing here and the think I don't do enough.
I hope my post was organized enough to understand. I would appreciate any advice/insights. I am open to suggestions , but if you feel like battering me or criticizing, please don't post, as I have really had enough of that. I am coming here for support and true advice and don't really want to feel the need to defend myself. If clarification is needed, please ask. Thank you.
C,
hang in there buddy.
The MLC'ers love to get a reaction and the worst thing you can do to a MLCer (in their twisted logic) is to deny them the reaction. This drives them bonkers. So try to take your eyes off of her and move forward. I understand that she's taking you to the cleaners and she (unjustly) feels entitled to your pension and monthly cash donations.
Perhaps your lawyer sees some window of response?
Thanks for the response Vapo.
Again, I am not certain it is MLC because it seems as though she has had one foot out the door for years and was looking for a reason to leave. Her anger and outbursts have always been over the top and she never apologizes, but this does seem worse than before.
Hello,
I am not sure if I should be posting in this forum or in the MLC forum. Not sure how I would move the post or continue it somewhere else.
I have done quite a bit of reading on MLC and still find myself tempted to try and reason with my ExW. I am sure it wouldn't be a good outcome, but I am still tempted to try. It seems like she gets meaner every day, although sometimes she appears as sweet as honey.
It seems as though I cannot do or say anything without her getting angry and being controlling. If she truly is going through a MLC and there is a slight possibility she will come out of it at some point, how do I keep things from escalating? If I ignore her demands, she gets upset and calls ME passive-aggressive and if I respond to her ridiculousness, she gets even more angry. I am in a lose/lose situation. I am trying to just ignore her, but that doesn't seem to be effective in not making her angry.
Any advice??
Hi Clay, as you guys are already D, I would definitely not engage in any of her anger stuff. I would go pretty 'dim' and only interact in a minimal way and on parenting things. Leave her to twist in the air with her own anger.
If she starts baiting you, just say - I'm not willing to discuss this when you are angry like this. We can talk another time when you're calmer. And if she continues - just walk away.
You could even say - XW, we are D for months now. I'm not going to continue arguing about this.
I would leave her to toss in the wind with her anger and not worry about what she may call you. If she thinks you're passive aggressive, that's up to her. For your own part, I would aim for assertive and moving on without her.
JMHO of course. I post in the MLC part of the forum and there are a few guys there with W's in MLC - if you haven't visited already, you may want to have a read there.
Take care xx
Thanks Sotto.
Most of our conversations/interactions have to do with the kids and her lack of disciplining them. Of course there are money issues as well that have to do with the chidren and after 8 months of the signing of the settlement agreement, she is finally wanting her things out of my house and expects me to drop everything to accommodate her demands. I have been ignoring her. I am not keeping her from her stuff, but I don't have time to drop what I am doing and give her what she wants when she wants it. I know it is making her upset (and I am not trying to) because she is used to getting what she wants. When she doesn't, she gets angry.
Many have told me to just move on, but even though she is controlling and goes out of her way to push my buttons, I still keep looking for hope that it may someday change. I thought it was getting better a couple years ago, but it is much worse now. I am still having a hard time accepting the fact that we are no longer married. I still feel like she is my wife. I am not in denial, but it is like losing a family member. No, I don't want to continue being treated poorly, but I want what I thought I had.
Hi Clay, I would be as helpful as possible with her getting her stuff. If you are busy right now then, rather than ignoring, perhaps agree a future date with her, so she knows what to plan for. It sounds as though you are still engaging in some sort of dance with her - even though you guys are now D'd. (She wants this, I'm ignoring her, I can't just stop and give her what she wants, I know it's making her upset etc.) Something to think about perhaps?
It is hard to come to terms with D. Have you considered attending some sort of recovery workshop? I did a Divorce Recovery Workshop at the end of last year, which was good. There are also rebuilding seminars. It is good to meet others in similar situations, and may also help you work through any residual feelings about the D.
Take care and good luck
Thanks again for your input Sotto. I am not really doing a dance with her, but since I work ( and am having to work extra jobs to get by)and she doesn't, the last thing I have time to do is go through the house looking for the things she wants. I spent last night and today gathering up as much as I could find and have set it by the front door.
I have considered a workshop. I will have to try and find one.
What makes it hurt even worse is that she and her parents continually involve the children and discuss things with them in which they should have no part. She absolutely refuses to co-parent (which was one of the main issues we had while married). There was rarely any sharing or compromise. I still struggle with her to get information on events that are going on with the kids as well as things regarding education. There is almost nothing I can do to not make her angry if I insist she share information with me or express a concern that she has not informed me of something regarding them.
I am looking for advice here and I know there will be differing opinions, but I am open to entertaining them.
As mentioned above, I recently found out D2 is on the School Lunch Program because, as she said "my mom is poor". Today ExW sent me her tax information as required by the court. She claimed both the kids, as the order allows her to do that. She also claimed HH, which she is not allowed to do because she was not paying any rent or utilities to her parents while there. That is really on her though because it doesn't affect me. but it does show her lack of ethics.
The thing that bothers me is, she is receiving more than $2K/month from me (and I don't make that much), she does not have a job, received nearly $3K in tax returns and I just found out today that she is taking D2 to a Broadway musical next month (yes actually in NYC) for a show that costs more than $500/ticket. We live in CA. I am working 2 jobs in order to survive, while she is spending frivolously and at the same time, acting like she is "poor" and says she doesn't have any money. She did inform me yesterday via e-mail that she is taking D on a trip next month on her weekend, so I will need to be with S2. She was intentionally evasive about where she was going, but I found out through someone else. D2 confirmed it tonight because she told me about it without me asking.
I really want to write her a long letter pointing out all of her moral and ethical failures as a parent and as a person in general, but I am sure that will go nowhere and in her mind, will make me look like the awful person she wants everyone to believe I am.
Writing this helped a little because I was able to vent, but I am still very frustrated. I know I should bite my tongue, but I want to let her have it and let her know I am not the moron she wants to believe I am.
If anyone has any advice, I am open. Thanks.
Hi Clay, you don't get to control how she spends money, but you do have some influence on what money you give to her. Have your contributions been legally determined? If not, it's maybe time to get that set at a fair level. If they have already - then I would accept and move forward...
Hi Sotto,
The support was determined at a level set by the attorneys and I was told by my attorney that it was fair, but she will be required to become self-supporting. The purpose of the child support being what it is, is so the kids can have the same standard of living at both houses, but I am the one who works long hours and cannot afford trips like that or season passes to amusement parks.
My kids told me their mom got a job and started working last Friday. Tonight, my son said that if he gets a job, it will have to be close enough to walk since she and I both have jobs. I asked if she was working full-time and he said "no. She can't have too many hours because then she will not qualify for the apartment"
I plan to take her back to court to have her income imputed.
Update on my situation.
ExW has continued to not look for work. She drives for a ride-share company, which I also do in the little bit of off time I have (I call it my alimony job). I am struggling to make the bills and keep the house (which the kids want me to do) while I am paying for 150% of her entire cost of living plus about an extra $600/month for her to put into savings. I don't get to save anything, as I am still paying the credit cards from the attorneys. She also gets to keep the money she makes from her part-time job. She gets to choose when she works and takes frequent trips, while I am working extremely long hours in order to survive. She has already turned down one job and quit another.
I recently retained an attorney in order to impute her income and asked for the spousal support to be eliminated since she refuses to become self-supporting. She received notification last Monday and was FURIOUS. She sent me a text stating that she would no longer be providing more than 50% of the transportation between the two residences and that if I wanted to visit with my children, I would have to pick them up myself, even though I will have to pass my house on the way home to pick them up after a long day of work. She has been dropping them off for nearly two years. She said the order says the drop-off/pick up is something that is mutually agreeable. I said "it is not a mutual agreement". She responded by saying "I will not be agreeing to any other plan". I did not respond other than to tell her that she never ceases to be irrational and unfair to the kids. I have not spoken with her since. I began picking up the kids without a mention of what's going on and have acted like nothing is wrong.
I hesitated to take her back to court, because I was afraid I would make her mad. After months of therapy and input from family and friends, I realized that if I was afraid she would be angry, then she is not reasonable and I am just going to have to do it.
I am still worried, as she ALWAYS gets her way and knows how to lay on the charm and act like an innocent victim. I don't know why it is that this woman's ability to manipulate and make me the bad guy scares me so much? I have had many others tell me that she is not reasonable and not to worry about what she and her family members think, but I still do.
I keep running across old e-mails between us and it seems like we had it pretty good. I know I am fooling myself though, as my T points out. I think I was so high on the good times because the angry outbursts, lying, manipulation and false accusations were so bad. I have said to my T that I want what I had. She thinks that it is possible that I only thought I had something.
I still think it is a MLC, as it is much worse now than ever, but not sure. I guess I am still hopeful that it will change. I know if it is, it wont happen any time soon and I don't want THAT person back yet anyway. My T says that most Axis II personalities almost never get better. I am still hopeful, but realizing that it may never happen. I am still trying to deal with the fact that the family is no longer integrated. Trying to GAL, but it is still hard.
Anyone else here experience the same thing?
Clay,
I am sorry you still have to deal with such behavior and attitude from xW even after the D. For some, the selfishness never stops.
I think I am going to be in the same situation as you. Just posted on my thread my STBXs rants for today. She was a SAHM and thinks that is her job the rest of her life.
You need to protect yourself and do what you feel is right for you and your kids no matter what she feels.
I also have a difficult time control how my family acts with my STBX. They did not get along and in some way contributed to the tension in my M, no matter how much I supported my STBX back then. I completely detached from my family and in the end I am on the D train.
Hang in there my friend.
JimKao,
Thanks for your reply.
I believe my ExW does think she will end up getting spousal support for life. Some attorneys say it is possible because it was considered a long-term marriage. Not sure what state you are in (I am in CA), but it seems like most of the states have it wrong. SHE quit the marriage and although she was a SAHM, it is a stab in the back for all the sacrifices I made so she could stay home and clean IF she felt like it or stay in bed all day because she didn't feel like doing anything. Why should there be a reward for breaking her vows? I have worked extra hard for years so I could someday take a break, but she always wanted something new and now she wont work because she expects that I have to keep working. I am 51 and a DAV. I hope the judge is reasonable and puts an end to it. There is no reason I should have to pay her anymore. She is the one who did this.
The original intent of alimony was to provide sustenance when one partner (usually the man)committed marital misconduct. If the woman committed marital misconduct, she was said to have forfeited any compensation. In my case, she did commit misconduct. Not adultery, but spent thousands of dollars behind my back, had secret mailboxes, bank accounts and credit cards. That information should be enough to compel the judge to put an end to it, but we shall see.
It sounds like you have a difficult battle ahead of you too. I wish you the best of luck. Thanks again for your reply.
Here is a question I would like to ask for anyone who might have been in my situation.
As mentioned, my ex-w has turned down one job and quit another after just one week. She has told the kids that she cannot work a lot of hours right now because if she does, she will not be able to qualify for the low-income apartments in which she is living. I am burdened with all the debts from the marriage as well as having to work extra jobs in order to pay support. I have nothing for my retirement and she got everything. I currently pay for 150% of her entire cost of living, while she has a considerable amount to put away each month.
I am taking her back to court to have the order modified.
Last night my 16 year old D was throwing a tantrum and accused me of being cheap. I told her I don't have any money, which is true because I have thousands of dollars of debt due to the divorce, which I tried really hard to save. She responded by saying "that's because you hired a frickin' attorney to sue my mom". I don't know what to say because I have never involved the kids and don't want to. I want them to know the truth, but I don't want them caught in the middle and don't want to disparage their mom (although I have some pretty awful thoughts right now). Right now I am the bad guy and I don't know what to do.
I don't know what to say because I have never involved the kids and don't want to. I want them to know the truth, but I don't want them caught in the middle and don't want to disparage their mom (although I have some pretty awful thoughts right now). Right now I am the bad guy and I don't know what to do.
Clay234,
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that telling your children the truth isn't the same as getting them "caught in the middle." Given their age, if you simply give them the facts and don't treat them like pawns in a game, then I think that's acceptable.
I second Doodler. Stay strong buddy...
Thank you all for your support. It is a difficult position to be in because I have always been the bad guy and it seems as though I am held to a higher standard than mom. I am not allowed to get upset at anything. I keep trying to tell the kids that I wanted to save the family and fighting is not something I want to do. She is the one who sued me and made a long nasty fight out of something that didn't need to happen. Even the attorneys mentioned that. The kids think I should have to work, while they and mom do absolutely nothing. I cannot even get them to pick up around the house without a fight. It is depressing. I think if I tell them their mom is the one who sued me and that is the reason we are in this situation, they will deny it or make excuses for her.
The reason I need to take her back is because she refuses to work (currently drives for a rideshare company at her leisure)and become self-supporting as ordered by the courts. She said she wants to move on and wants me to leave her alone, but wants to have her claws in me and control me forever.
I do believe that the real reason she is angry is because she is scared. Her mother even told me after she left me that she doesn't believe she (ex-w) can make it on her own. It is for that very reason that she can't. Mom and dad do everything for her and support the idea that everything is everyone else's fault.
Regardless of who comes out looking better in the courtroom, there are no winners here.
Although she has always had anger issues and is very spoiled (and at 44, is still coddled by her parents), I keep running across pleasant e-mails and texts between the two of us over the years and I cannot figure out why she is so bent on fighting. She is really good at making me doubt myself and question whether or not I am right. In this case, I think I am, but it is so hard.
I meet with my attorney on Monday and we go to mediation on Wednesday. We shall see how it goes.
Again, thanks for the input.
Don't go trough the old messages, it really does you no good, in fact it only puts you in a bad mood.
As you have discovered by now, your W became something (someone) totally unfamiliar to you. You can quit trying to figure it out how it came to be, you will not succeed deducting it. So just accept it, she's an alien imposter for all intents and purposes. You DO HAVE to do anything and everything to protect yourself in all areas, financially, legally and emotionally.
I have a feeling that your kids will not listen to your words, so teach them with actions. The basic problem is complete lack of respect to you as father. Perhaps it is time for tough love. I do not recall if your kids work or in any way contribute to the household. I'd cut them off. And I would seek a second legal opinion, it really sounds to me you got screwed in the court, do you feel you have had adequate representation?
Hi Capo,
It all sounds like good advice, but still hard to deal with. The messages are some I stumble across while searching for other things, but you are right. She became an alien.
No, the kids do not work. My son stole a large sum of cash from me last summer and has done nothing to pay it back. He says he is trying to look for a job, but it has been 10 months and he could have had it all paid back by now and saving for himself. He was the most innocent child and the last person anyone would have ever suspected to do something like that. He said he did it because I started yelling a lot and he was upset. Even ex- w doesn't believe that. I believe it is related to the separation and divorce. He will be 18 in Dec. Says he can't find a job, but I don't think he is looking as hard as he thinks he is.
The tough love thing is hard and I just have someone else the same advice. I don't know if they will ever respect me or how hard I work because mom doesnt wprk and her family supports her actions and ecpectsvi should just pay her support forever while she does nothing.
My last attorney did not do that good a job, but this new attorney says "I'm an a**hole and I've dealt with people like her for 28 years." We shall see.
The kids don't understand that I only standing up for myself and am in this position because SHE used me. I hope some day they get it, but if they do, it'll be a long time.
Yeah, it will be a long time. And if you do decide to do the tough love approach, they will hate you and call you all sort of names. But they do have to get their $hit together and start moving. So, even if they hate you for it, I think it is the only way. What if you got hit by a bus, how would they start living and fending for themselves? If they do not go to school, they start earning money. They have no idea that money does not grow on trees. They have no silly notions that silly things like rent and groceries have to be paid. Telephone bill just does not takes care of itself, neither does electric bill, gas, heating and/or insurance.
So I would start by announcing to the older children that since they do not work or go to school, they will have to start paying rent (let's say 100$ a month), also their phone bills and their shopping are their problems. They have a car? Lovely, insurance, gas and repairs are on them to take care of. They will be furious, but in the end they will thank you. The poor baby can't get work? Tough $hit, is he expecting to be Google CEO? I am sure Wallmarts needs bag boys, I am sure there is a McDonalds in your neck of the woods, flipping burgers for a couple of months will give him a whole new take on the world.
So what if they refuse to pay rent? Not a problem, they can move out on their own and start living. You are doing your kids no favors by shielding them from the world. The kids need to respect you first and love you later. There can be no love without respect first. Right now you are just a walking wallet and a punching bag. If they see your W not having any respect for you, they think they can do the same.
I would not do any dramatic talks with them, just a simple announciation would do. No explanations, no dramas, no crying, no begging, no pleading. I would say that you love them to death, but this is what needs to happen and start making it happen. I've had at least a part time job since I was 14 and it has taught me some important lessons.
And if you are honest to yourself, you are suffering like a dog with all the disrespect being dished out on daily basis. As if your W's actions are not bad enough. So you got to grow a new set of balls just for you. If you do not think you are worthy of respect and love, no one else will think either. Please do not think I am making fun of you or taunting you. I too am growing a new pair, big brass ones.
Stay strong buddy...
Sorry Vapo, I really suck at typing on the smartphone .
What if you got hit by a bus, how would they start living and fending for themselves?
ExW's parents would probably take them in and coddle them like they do their own daughter. I have a SGLI policy through the military reserve. After the separation, I took my ex off it and removed all the kids from it too. I listed my sister as next of kin. She will do the right thing should something ever happen. My oldest is 25 and married. She was the same way, but moved out at 18 and moved out of state. She stumbled a little, but she got her head out of her a$$ and is now a supervisor with a major company. She grew up fast because she learned how to make it on her own. I wouldn't mind her having it, but she is a little gullible and exw keeps telling everyone these sob stories that she has no money and is poor.
So I would start by announcing to the older children that since they do not work or go to school, they will have to start paying rent (let's say 100$ a month), also their phone bills and their shopping are their problems. They have a car? Lovely, insurance, gas and repairs are on them to take care of. They will be furious, but in the end they will thank you. The poor baby can't get work? Tough $hit, is he expecting to be Google CEO? I am sure Wallmarts needs bag boys, I am sure there is a McDonalds in your neck of the woods, flipping burgers for a couple of months will give him a whole new take on the world.
The two youngest are 16 and 17. They say they have been trying to get jobs, but make excuses. I think they THINK they want jobs, but will not take my advice on following up on applications because they know it all. I have told them I started at McDonald's at 14 and had many jobs in high school. During my senior year, I had 3 jobs at one time. I told them there are many ways to earn money. I even shoveled out horse stalls and other odd jobs. Their excuses are "we live in a job desert","it was easier to get a job when you were younger", and "they are only hiring people with experience" (yes, son actually said KFC wouldn't hire him because they wanted someone older and with more experience).
So what if they refuse to pay rent? Not a problem, they can move out on their own and start living. You are doing your kids no favors by shielding them from the world. The kids need to respect you first and love you later. There can be no love without respect first. Right now you are just a walking wallet and a punching bag. If they see your W not having any respect for you, they think they can do the same.
I think you're 100% right on there. Son says when he turns 18 his girlfriend's mom is going to allow him to live there for $100/month. Not sure that will work out (I hope it doesn't), but I have no idea how he is going to get the money for rent. They do not respect me because mom doesn't respect me. I am still blown away that my daughter is angry at me for suing their mom when she is the one who sued me and started this whole thing. I just don't get it.
If you do not think you are worthy of respect and love, no one else will think either.
I have heard that from others and I am trying to find a way to do it. I hesitated to take her to court because I thought "she is going to be angry. I don't want that". Then I realized (FINALLY) that her getting angry means she is not a reasonable person and that I have to do what I have to do. I have got to stop being afraid to make her mad. It has been going on for 18 years. I keep thinking that if she gets mad, she will be less likely to reconcile some day, but then I don't really want to be around someone I am afraid to make mad. Therapy has helped me understand that even though my heart is still broken.
Please do not think I am making fun of you or taunting you. I too am growing a new pair, big brass ones.
No worries. I am not offended. Many others have said the same thing.
It would be so much easier if she were to decide it would be better to reconcile, but that is not likely to happen. She would rather stay angry, point out all my faults and continue playing the victim.
Do not wait around for her, in any shape or form. She might come around, and then again she might not. I am not saying you should start dating or anything, but you do have to get on with your life.
Try to remove any memories from the line of sight (photographs, keepsakes,...) because they set you back a little each time you look at them.
And then continue with rebuilding your life without your W. As you have discovered it is futile to reason with your kids, so you must speak with actions. They will get it with time (hopefully)...
Go out, hang out with people, go hiking, bond with nature.
Stay strong buddy...
Well, I am getting up in a few hours to go to mediation. Like I said, I am terrified because she is a pathological liar and is very manipulative. I have a journal of the things that have gone on the last two years and have not involved the kids in anything. I have walked a very fine line and have been very careful not to get caught up in things. I have slipped a couple times by raising my voice at the kids when they throw tantrums. she WILL use that against me and will fabricate something. She knows how to play the victim well. I also do not trust these mediators.
I just looked online and found out she hired a well-known/high priced attorney. Speaking logically, I have to ask myself WHY?? Why not just do the right thing?? I am afraid that I will end up having to pay her support for a very long time and I will end up having nothing for the rest of my life while she lives off my efforts. In the early 80's Jerry Reed had a hit song titled "She Got the Gold Mine (I Got the Shaft)". I thought it was funny, but always knew it was true. Unfortunately, things still don't appear to be that much better.
I went to the ordered mediation and she was a no- show. They told me to just go to the trial next month, as they couldn't talk to me without her there. You would think this would not make her look good, but I have this feeling she was told by her attorney that she didn't have to show and there will be no consequences. Not sure though, as she wouldn't do this if she hadn't been advised. At least that's what I think. Who knows??
Sorry to respond to an old post. Just saw it.
There is a last resort letter that people do write but it is not like your letter.
Where can I find more information about writing the last resort letter?
Thanks.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1922053I did something like this myself but instead of tearing it up, I gave it to her. Not sure if it had an impact or not but W stopped talking about leaving, went through a rough patch and then actually did leave saying that she needed time and space to think. At the time I had thought (wrongly) that the A was over and that I was dealing with a WAW not a WW. I've redacted most of it to save space. Here's a partially redacted version of the main paragraphs.
I honestly don't know if it had an impact or not and if WW is actually thinking or is living the life with OM. My heart and what she said to me and S22/D24 is that she's thinking but I've been wrong SO many times before when I practice mind-reading.
I feel that the time has now come for us to move beyond the past and start rebuilding our life together. <snip> you may chose differently than what I have hoped and waited for.
<snip>
If on the other hand you feel that our marriage and family cannot be saved or that you still cannot decide in a reasonable time then I will reluctantly need to pursue my own legal advice on ending our marriage and breaking up our family for the sake of my own well-being and to secure the future for myself and our children.
I am sure it is too late for this kind of thing. She is really angry. I think part of the reason she is more angry now is because I pointed out to the courts what she has done and has refused to become self-supporting. I am not sure what is going to happen, but I am worried because she ALWAYS gets her way. The thing is, I do not want to do this. I do not want to fight, but I have to stand up for myself for once and it is getting ugly. If I thought it would do any good, I would write her a letter and ask her to reconsider, but I do not think it will do anything besides give her the opportunity to write me a nasty letter.
They say people realize that the grass is not always as green on the other side, but I don't think that will be the case with her. She is always angry and always the victim. She actually had it better than she thought. I worked while she stayed in her pajamas and homeschooled and then did whatever she wanted throughout the day. Even had season passes to the local theme park on OC. I just don't get it, but I guess people who are as spoiled as she never seem to understand these things. Another reason she will likely not reconsider is, she has not actually been on her own. She is living (by choice) in subsidized housing while i pay 150% of her entire cost of living. She has never in her life had to do anything on her own.
Hello Vapo,
It has been a while since I have been on here, as I have been busy and am still depressed over the situation. I know people say "you'll get over it. It takes a couple years", but I am still not over it and still do not know what my future looks like.
I went to the court-ordered mediation, which is a requirement since modification of custody is on the table. She didn't show. When I notified my attorney's office, I was told that she could be admonished and it even says on the instructions that a no-show could result in a $1500 fine. We went to court a few weeks later and my attorney said that most likely, nothing would happen to her unless she did it again. We could not go in front of the judge because we had not gone to mediation, so it had to be moved back to Nov 2. I am absolutely certain her attorney advised her not to show up so this would happen. She is too careful to just ignore the order.
She has stated in her declaration that she was a stay-at-home mom through the entire marriage and that she gave me "unwavering support" for the jobs I held while we were together. I took a job on the other side of the country after being out of work for 5 months and was there for 14 months and she would not go with me. I also turned down a very lucrative job with a very unique, but well-known company 7 hours away from home because she said she thought I should take it and then said "you can go, but I'm not moving the kids up there". This is what she calls "unwavering support". She is also stated " I thought the spousal support would be a few years". She still refuses to work.
The court is going to order a vocational examination for her. I am going to have to front the money for this, but she is supposed to have to pay for it, but I am doubting the courts will make her reimburse me, as the will probably say she doesn't have the ability to pay. My attorney said this is what we wanted, but I don't see a positive outcome for it.
I have struggled for the last 2 years to keep my head above water so I can keep my house and pay my bills while she does nothing except a ride-share job, which she only does part-time. The amount I am required to pay her is enormous and covers more than 150% of her entire cost of living. I am still in debt from the attorneys and also have to pay the medical. As of last month, I am no longer working full-time, as the job I was working for 11 months was only temporary. It was grueling job where I worked extremely long hours and had to wear steel-toe shoes, which have now increased pain with my back and legs to the point where it is difficult to walk without pain, as I have a history of issues and am rated by the VA at 90%. In all that time, I never got one sick day or one vacation day. She did not hesitate to demand prompt payment during that time.
We do not talk anymore, but the in little bit of e-mail communication we have, she doesn't hesitate to be nasty. She has always been this way, but it is getting worse. I am still going to therapy and am starting to realize the possibility that she never cared one bit about me. Now she thinks I am going to spend the rest of my life being miserable (and I might) paying for her.
I am still heartbroken and depressed over this, but I am very tempted to write her a letter and tell her what an incredibly mean person I think she is. I have hesitated to do this, as I did not want to maker her mad, but I am tired of being bullied. I cannot understand how someone can treat another person this way and tell other people that that person (me) is so bad. I just don't understand what makes people so mean and what makes people treat poorly, the ones who have treated them so well.
I need to call my attorney today to find out what is going to happen regarding the evaluation. I will post more when I have more news. Thanks for your support.
I am very tempted to write her a letter and tell her what an incredibly mean person I think she is. I have hesitated to do this, as I did not want to maker her mad, but I am tired of being bullied.
I dont think you should not send the letter to avoid making her mad.
I think you should not send the letter, because there is no point. It isnt like she is going to listen to you or change how she treats you.
So, in the meantime, how is your GAL going?
Don't send that letter. Write it, because it will be cathartic to get out some of what you're feeling, but if you send it to her, you have to assume it goes straight into the divorce court record.
I am in the process of writing the letter, but like both of you have stated, there is no point in sending it, as it will just fuel the flames. If she were being more logical and rational, these things would not be happening. I am not worried about it going into the court records, as there is nothing disparaging (it would actually make her look bad), but again, there is no point. Just since this last post she sent me another nasty and demanding e-mail. It is like kicking someone while he is down and it never stops. I do not understand it. She keeps getting meaner and just when I think it isn't possible for her to come up with more, she does.
As far as GAL, that is something I do not understand. I am still supporting her and have nothing left after paying her, as I still have debts from the divorce. I also have nothing for my future, as she literally got everything. I am also battling depression, which never occurred before the split. It goes up and down, but I really do not know what to do with my life.
Clay,
breathe brother. Breathe. You are not alone here. We are in your corner and we are all rooting for you.
Now is the time to take care of yourself and let your W go and let the higher powers take care of her.
Do you feel you have adequate and competent legal representation? I feel (and I could be dead wrong) that you could do better with better legal representation. I think your W needs a dose of reality ASAP.
Stay strong brother, and if you need to vent, we're here for you.
V
Clay,
Do you feel you have adequate and competent legal representation? I feel (and I could be dead wrong) that you could do better with better legal representation. I think your W needs a dose of reality ASAP.
V
I do have legal representation. I had to hire an attorney, as it has been two years since the split and she will not get a job. She said she thought she would have been given a few years. I wasn't really happy with the lawyer I had for the divorce, as I think she let me get screwed (not intentionally though), but this one says he is really aggressive. I am still not sure I am comfortable because the attorneys all know each other and I don't feel like he is listening. I am going to tell him when we go into court that I am not leaving without talking to the judge. There is a lot the judge needs to hear, but I am still not sure I will get the chance.
She is used to getting her way with everything she does and I am afraid the court will just look the other way. We are supposed to go to court on November 2, but she is supposed to have a vocational evaluation first since she claims she is not qualified to get a job.
She is really good with the crazy-making behaviors and I keep having to remind myself that I am not the bad person she says I am and that she is being irrational. I don't think most people who divorce fight the way she does. I don't even prompt her, but the one thing that really seems to tick her off is when I ignore her. She is a bully and I am so used to taking the bait. Now I bite my tongue and ignore her and it really makes her mad.
I am trying to see if there is a bright side, but it is a struggle. I will keep you all updated. Thanks for the support.
Clay, I did realize you had a lawyer, my question was if you were happy with his activities and actions. I feel that you might deem him less than adequate to represent you. If you are not 100% happy, then I would shop around, use word of mouth recommendation and get someone that I was OK with.
Again I am so sorry for the crazy situation you are in. Stay strong brother...
Thanks again for everyone's support. I'm sure I am repeating myself here, but I just don't understand why some people like to fight like this. To me, it feels much better to get along and try to be happy together.
Clay-- I'm new to your situation. Was your Ex-W actually diagnosed with BPD, or just suspected of BPD by you?
Based on how unfair you feel the outcome of the D was ... it seems your lawyer did a poor job....
The divorce was final a year ago. What's making it so difficult to just let her go emotionally, and move on with your life?
Hi ForGump,
To answer your questions, to my knowledge, she has not been diagnosed with BPD, but it has been indicated by a couple therapists with whom we have both met. I suspect she has, but would never admit it to me.
WRT letting her go, it 8s difficult for me, as I still have feelings for her and the plans and dreams of a future together have been crushed. We spent a lot of time together (all 6 of us) as a family and she and I had many good times together too. I know there was a lot missing in our marriage, but that doesn't stop me from missing the time together.
Clay-- thanks. I know how difficult it is, as I'm trying to let go of my BPD W. She hasn't had an official diagnosis, as she doesn't want help at all and doesn't like therapists. But her pattern of behavior fits BPD well, along with other co-occurring issues, including a lot of anxiety and some depression. Underneath it all, though, is a very loving, kind and fun person. She always said medical treatment of her conditions would rob her of her personality. I never believed it. She's instead abusing marijuana, which I think does actually affect her judgment and other mental processes.
My IC has said her BPD-based way of loving me could have also made such an impression that it makes the heartbreak doubly painful. I think there a lot of truth that, especially in the beginning of the relationship when a BPD person is rapturous with you, and you fall so hard for her too. Then you fall in love kind of like a BPD person, and less so in a more normal way. The way your W loved you -- when she wasn't exploding in anger at you -- might be one reason it's so hard for you to let her go, even after all the painful ending of your marriage.
Just a thought, from a fellow person touched by BPD...
p.s. I understand the impulse to want to tell the BPD sufferer what they have, and that they need treatment. But everything I've read says that's just futile and counter-productive. Search the web for "Anosognosia and Getting a Borderline into Therapy", and work by Dr. Amador. According to Amador, the only way to get a BPD into treatment is to win their trust and through incredible gentle and humble persuasion, which takes years, if not decades.
So yeah, I think writing a letter to your ex telling her what she is doing wrong ... is likely pointless (and legally problematic, as JRuss pointed out). Dr. Amador says it's not that the mentally ill are in denial. Denial means a person knows the truth yet willfully shoves it aside. Dr. Amador says research has shown that the mentally ill simply do not see their illness. They cannot deny what they do not see.
I agree with ForGump. Clay, as to your comments that you can't understand, how some people fight like that, it's just that you are getting railroaded and your Ex is taking you for everything that she can. You have to protect yourself and also what I came to realize is that when I stood up to the W, she was mad, but respected me a whole lot more afterwards.
Women want someone who stands up to them, who dominates them. That's likely the reason they often fall prey to scumbag OMs.
Also fighting back does wonders for self esteem.
V
I agree with everyone that I need to stand up for myself, which is what I'm doing, but I disagree that she will respect it. The women in her family (her grandma, mother, aunt, cousin) wear the pants and the men are as she calls them "doormats". I think in addition to her personality issues is the fact that the women in her family are controlling and people like her grandpa, uncle, brother, etc are more submissive and I don't think she was used to that. She has often said " I think you have a problem with women", but I am realizing how that that is most likely projection based on the way she has seen men treated.
I know I have mentioned before that our son stole some money from me last summer (2015) and has for the last year not put much effort into getting a job. Last week I stopped by one of the fast-food places where he has supposedly applied, but wasn't hired to ask the manager what she was looking for and what tips I could give my son so he could come back in and get a job. She was going to take his name, but I told her I wanted him to do it himself, so I didn't give it to her. I e-mailed ExW the next day to let her know that I spoke with the manager who said she is always hiring and for him to go back in and ask for her. I told ExW that I am tired of the excuses and that he needs to get off his butt and get a job. I thought I might get a little support, as she has had a pleasant streak lately, but she just let me have it. She continued to make excuses for him and said "The failure and rejections have been absolutely confidence-crushing, and all his father cares about is the money and whether he's "trying hard enough." Then she told me to leave her and the kids alone.
She went on to say many other nasty things and I was tempted to respond, but have hesitated even though she was dead wrong about many of the things she said, and I know she was just waiting for me to take the bait (at least that's what I think). I know a lot of what she said was projection, but it is still frustrating to sit here and not respond (thanks to all of you for letting me vent on here).
Our son will be eighteen in exactly two months and has absolutely no plan. He gets upset when I talk to him about it. I do not think he is in any way prepared to live on his own. I am sure if I tell him he can't live here, ExW or her parents will take him in and continue enabling him. I have threatened for the last year to cut off his phone, but have been told by him that he will not be able to get a job without it. At this point, the excuse has gotten old and I am seriously considering doing it tomorrow, but I know I will catch hell from ExW and both of my youngest kids. Anyone else have experiences like this?
My kids are way younger, so they are not able to work, as they are in preschool still.
But, your son is at an age he is not old enough to be an adult and old enough not to be a child. It is a complicated time...
Given the fact he is not even 18, I would have a talk with him and give him some boundaries. I am guessing but from your post I do not recall that he is still in school, so if he is not in school I would give him some deadlines...
1. If he is not in school and taking classes, he should start making a contribution to the household from the time he turns 18. I would start with his phone. His excuse is lame at best. So I would put him on notice that he is to take care of his phone bill starting from the first bill after he turns 18. I would have a talk with him where I would reiterate my love for him and that he is becoming a man, and a big part of him being a man is being able to take care of himself. What if he had a family? A young child? Perhaps this would be the kick in the pants he needs to realize an education is important or he will realize that a minimum pay job flipping burgers or busing tables will be his reality. I would not mention him stealing money, but time for some tough love is nigh. In essence time to DB him some...
Stay strong buddy...
He is homeschooled, but will be taking his final test through the state next weekend and will be completely finished with school after that. He doesn't even want to do the burger flipping jobs. Why would he want to work when his mom won't do it and he sees all these things come in for free?
Since his mom will not work, a vocational evaluation has been ordered. I have to pay the money up-front ($2400) and she will have to reimburse me. I am worried because she always manages to manipulate and even though she should have been held accountable, she always seems to get away with the things she does. She has now cost me more than $27,000 in attorney's fees all because she wanted to fight. i tried to get her to reconcile, but she wouldn't. the courts should have ordered her to pay my fees, but these judges don't have the guts to do it.
What about higher education? Uni?
Clay--
You have a complicated, messy, situation, and I cannot presume to give solid advice. But here's just an idea to consider:
Given that you are very likely dealing w/ someone who has a serious mental health disorder ... (1) you may want to be really careful about engaging this person in a rational fight about your divorce conditions. If her BPD is real and intense, you are battling her emotional demons, not a rational person.
(2) Your son's situation sounds very messy, and can complicate your divorce process. Can you pause your involvement in that issue, and sort it out AFTER the divorce? Your son's character/personality issue is not something that can be changed in a few months with some prodding. It's likely going to take a long time.
Like I said, just ideas. I hope you have a counselor, and a few good and wise friends who can help you navigate this. It sounds awful.
He says he wants to go to college, which he gets to do for free because of my VA disability, but because of his entitlement mentality, I don't know if I am going to allow him to use it.
ForGump,
My divorce has been final since last October, but since she refuses to work, the evaluation needs to be ordered. She is pretty angry about that.
I think my son is going to end up stumbling for quite a while and if his grandparents take him in like they have done with their children, there is nothing I will be able to do to help him.
As far as a rational fight, I have to really resist to not respond. I am sure she wants me to, but I am doing all I can to bite my tongue, but it is really hard. I do have a therapist and a pretty good support team (including her adult son), but it is still frustrating.
Thanks again for your input.
Dear friend,
your son is going through a MLC of his own (puberty)and it is a very tough and confusing time. Few are the people that can navigate it without help. I say bless his soul if he wants to go to college and get a higher education and if can benefit from the great service you did for this country all the better.
But I do agree that he should be made aware that there are no free rides in life.
Also I respectfully disagree with ForGump.
Stay strong...
I went to pick up my kids tonight and my son was taking a long time, so I went to the door and there was an envelope on the doormat that he left for me. In it was $40 and a note that said "I have decided that I will no longer be visiting your house for the remainder of the days before I turn 18. I will continue to pay off my debt to you. Please refrain from contacting me in the future" I kept knocking on the door, but he wouldn't come out. I told him I was going to call the sheriff, as I wanted to talk to him and get an answer and it was supposed to be my time with him. He wouldn't come out and I have no idea what was going on. I called the sheriff's department to ask a deputy to assist me, as I don't trust my Ex-W to not make false accusations. The deputy called me and stated that my son had already called and that he said my son told him that I had been really mean to him lately (my son has always been EXTREMELY sensitive, which I am sure is related to his ASD). I told the deputy that I was not going to drag him home if he didn't want to go, but that he is still a minor. The deputy said there was nothing he could do and that the fact that he is not yet 18 is irrelevant. I know for a fact that that is BS, but I wasn't going to argue with him. I am sure my ex knew about this before it happened, but failed to mention it to me. I had his phone service suspended. It baffles me that he said I was mean to him. Actually, he has been mean and disrespectful to me, but just like his mom, he has learned to flip things around on other people. His actions tonight are the same passive-aggressive types of BS actions his mother takes. He wouldn't talk to me and I had no idea why. I dealt with that for years when i had no idea what I might have done wrong and no way to fix it. Regardless, I am extremely hurt. My kids mean more to me than anything in the world and there is nothing I can do right for them. I really don't know what to do. When does the pain stop?
I really don't know what to do.
Clay,
I'm sorry you've had such a difficult time. In my opinion, the first thing you should do is respect your son's decision to stay with his mom; don't push him to come home with you. Clearly there are issues between the two of you. I think a good place to start would be to find a good family counselor and discuss the issues with the counselor. Over time you'll be able to build a bridge to your son, but it will have to start with you and you need to back off.
Thanks Doodler,
I have been in counseling and have discussed these issues with her. I will definitely need to talk to someone about this latest issue. I think you are right though that he needs some space.
The issues between the two of us are that the my ex would encourage them to ignore any rules I made (this was told to me by my adult step-son who now has a strained relationship with his mom)and so they intentionally ignore any rules I make.
It has been more than 14 months since my son stole more than $700 from me and has made no effort to pay me back or even get a job. I wrote him a letter last night telling him that I am very sad that he does not want to see me anymore and that I know he has some tough decisions to make in the near future (will be 18 in 3 weeks). I told him that my door and my arms are always open should he decide to come back home.
The kids' mother has refused to co-parent and just like when we were together, she would never stand by me and discipline the children because she wanted to win their respect and alienate me.
This whole thing hurts more than anything.
Well, I haven't been on here in quite a while and am definitely needing some emotional support.
I went to court today, as the ex has still refused to become self-supporting. It was a year ago I filed and my attorney stated that we could very possibly get the spousal support reduced if not terminated. Since last year, she intentionally skipped mediation and failed to show up for a pre-arranged meeting with me, my attorney and her attorney. I also had to pay for her to complete a vocational evaluation in order to determine her earning capacity. Well she lied to the evaluator regarding her advanced education, but it didn't seem to matter. My attorney argued with me and said that the judge would never terminate the support since it was a long-term marriage. He had me sign a non-modifiable order that has me paying her a certain amount for the next 5 years and then the support goes to zero. He said this way, no matter how much I make, she will not get more. He said this was a very good deal. I think he was wrong, but he said it would turn out worse if I go in front of the judge. Most of the jobs I have had (except for mobilization for active duty), have been contract jobs and my current one ends next June and I am not sure if it will be renewed.
One of the reasons she said she cannot work is because she had a stroke (TIA)a few months ago. She had Cushings and was in the hospital for a while. She is getting around now and just two months ago, she took three vacations within one month including an 8-day trip to Maui. I knew she would use her medical condition to get out of working. She is driving all over the place with no problems. She basically used me and the children to buy her a lifetime of support and will never have to work. In 5 years when the support ends, she can go back in to court and try to get more. I will also be eligible to start collecting my reserve retirement at that time and unfortunately, the state stupidly and selfishly considers it property, so she gets more free money then for not ever having to do a thing.
I am also rated by the VA at 100% disabled and spend 4-5 hours a day in traffic because of my obligation to pay her. She is fully capable of working and chooses not to. I am very frustrated at this point.
As far as the kids go, my son still won't talk to me and my daughter seems to think my only purpose in life is to shell out money. My kids have no respect for me or for the sacrifices I have made. They used to adore me.
Clay234 - thank you for your post. Sounds like my estranged wife. She has also left me numerous times to live with her parents. Right now, she has managed to get them to move from their home country and move in with her in a one-bedroom tiny condo with our daughter, and the parents are sleeping in the living room.
My wife also was not loved in the family and was considered last, living in the shadow of her older sister that got all the love and attention.
I've lost hope that my wife will ever come back. I'e lost her and my much adored daughter.
Athas,
you could not possibly have lost your daughter. Fight for her and for your rights as a father. Don't get screwed over!
Clay, really sorry you're going through that. It sounds like your XW is still lost in the fog. She's fighting for more of your money so she can fund her free-wheeling lifestyle chock full of vacations and selfishness. That sounds really frustrating!
As far as the kids go, my son still won't talk to me and my daughter seems to think my only purpose in life is to shell out money. My kids have no respect for me or for the sacrifices I have made. They used to adore me.
Very sorry you're going through this, it's hard enough to lose your W but when the kids are like this it just makes things that much more difficult. Maybe with time they'll come around. I went through some tough times with my younger D after BD. I think she jumped on W's let's-blame-him-for-all-of-this bandwagon. But what works for a WAS sometimes works for older kids too- I gave her time and space. I showed her the best me that I could be when I was around her, and pulled back when I wasn't around her. On my last birthday she gave me a birthday card with a very touching, loving, hand-written note in it. Our relationship is stronger now than it was before BD. So hang in there!
Athas,
you could not possibly have lost your daughter. Fight for her and for your rights as a father. Don't get screwed over!
I don't have the resource to fight the titan that is the family court system. Also the fact that I'm Australian and they're now in the United States.
I try to maintain contact with my daughter as much as possible. But she's too young and under control from my wife and her family of dumb hispanics.
Fcuk...
Try petitioning your local courts what can be done. Don't you dare give up!
Thank you all for your comments and concern. I understand I am not the only one in this situation and I hurt for all of us and our kids.
Athas, I think my W was also not loved. Her parents are very controlling and I don't think she ever got to make her own decisions. Unfortunately, she thinks her parents are the greatest thing on earth and I am the worst. At least that is what she portrays. Who knows what she really thinks, but I think she is still seeking their approval and follows them around everywhere. When she and I met 20 years ago, she said her biggest fear in life was disappointing her father. I think that is a hell of a burden for a child to have during his/her life. I think she is also in denial and fears telling them what she thinks. They still don't allow her to make her own decisions. When her son (my step-son) decided he wanted to live with me, ExW's father told him he had betrayed that side of the family. I suspect she fears the same thing from her father, so she will probably never tell him what she thinks.
I knew my son whom I haven't seen since last November was working for a popular fast-food chain, so I decided to look for him today. There are 10 of them in the city where he lives, so I decided to try them one at a time to see if I could find him. The first one I walked into was the one. He came walking up out of the back and as soon as he saw me standing there, he turned around and ran into the back. IT is kind of what I suspected, but was still disappointing that he will not even talk to me and tell me why he doesn't want to talk to me. It is definitely due to Parental Alienation. Not sure why he is afraid to talk to me.
Athas,
As Vapo said, don't give up. Your daughter will thank you for it. It is a very tough battle. I am in the U.S. Not sure what I can do to help, but let me know if I can.