Time for a new thread on not the best day. Petition for D just filed and H notified via email. Seems so much more real and feeling horribly sad and nauseous. Very much different than yesterday. Never, ever thought I would find myself here.
Not an hour after leaving L's office, I read this on a friends FB page. Funny how timing works....
A young woman went to her grandmother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her – her husband had cheated on her and she was devastated. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed as soon as one problem was solved, a new one arose.
Her grandmother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water and placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to boil. In the first she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs, and in the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil; without saying a word.
In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl.
Turning to her granddaughter, she asked, ‘Tell me what you see.’
‘Carrots, eggs, and coffee,’ she replied.
Her grandmother brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they were soft. The grandmother then asked the granddaughter to take an egg and break it. After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard boiled egg.
Finally, the grandmother asked the granddaughter to sip the coffee. The granddaughter smiled as she tasted its rich aroma. The granddaughter then asked, ‘What does it mean, grandmother?’
Her grandmother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity: boiling water. Each reacted differently. The carrot went in strong, hard, and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened. The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water, they had changed the water.
“Which are you?” she asked her granddaughter. “When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?
Think of this: Which am I? Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity? Do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?
Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff? Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and hardened heart?
Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain.. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you. When the hour is the darkest and trials are their greatest, do you elevate yourself to another level?
How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?
May you have enough happiness to make you sweet, enough trials to make you strong, enough sorrow to keep you human and enough hope to make you happy.
The happiest of people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way. The brightest future will always be based on a forgotten past; you can’t go forward in life until you let go of your past failures and heartaches.
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so at the end, you’re the one who is smiling and everyone around you is crying.
May we all be like the COFFEE.
I saw that on FB too! Good post.
I love it, thank you for that!
BT -
Nobody EVER thinks they will get to this point. Nobody ever gets married thinking "my spouse is going to leave me for someone else".
I always thought that if I got divorced, I would see it coming. I would hate the other person and be glad to be done with it. She would hate me.
And yet....here I am. Still in love with a woman whose heart is closed off to me, riding the countdown clock to being officially legally divorced.
And you know what? IM BETTER FOR IT. Every other facet of my life is better because this happened. I will survive. I will persevere. And I will find someone to share that with in the future....whether its my wife or someone else.
You will too, BT. I know it.
BT13, thanks for posting it. I enjoyed reading it.
I have to admit that every time I see the title of this thread I think of sex.
Thanks for the supportive words, Azzork. I certainly am better for my M, both the good and the bad. Yesterday was definitely a low point, but I decided to end it on a positive note. I decided I have much control how the next 6-7 months proceeds.
I sent very heart felt note to H and told him I still love him and will always have a special place in my heart for him. I said I was sorry how things turned the past week, but that I just could not live silently with A any longer and that it was clear he had no desire to try and fix things, so I needed to move forward with or without him. I explained that hiring L was not meant to be power move and I quite frankly I don't have the energy after the last 5 months to work through a complicated D process on my own. I also said I think this leave best chance to keep amicable and move forward peacefully.
I dont. Want this to end with us hating each other.
It is now up to him on how he wants to respond and move forward. I did get response from him that just said thanks for letting me know.
I am going to turn into the best damn cope of exotic coffee there is!! I did also find out last night that I got the spot on the city committee that I interviewed for.
That is great news BT, on the city committee role.
Exotic Coffee, sounds awesome, just not Kopi Lewak coffee
I heard that coffee is actually really good, though I have never tried it myself.
BT, I'm sorry it hasn't been the best couple of days. It's great news about the committee though. What is it got and what will be your role? Sounds like a good thing to focus on.
E
Really tough couple of days and feeling more like a mushy carrot than that glorious cup of coffee. I feel like I have regressed back the weeks right after BD. Sadness, incredible heartache, no appetite and no sleep. I guess the finality that comes with filing for D is causing a second wave of grief. Of course there are also brief moments where I question whether it was the right step to take. Maybe I am being the coward now by giving up too soon on my H and M. I am just trying to be gentle on myself and allow myself some time to be sad and know that for right now that is ok.
I think I said this before, but I think in many ways DB can keep us from grieving enough earlier on since we are working so hard on ourselves, GAL, and still having hope for a new R with our spouse. Now that hope is so so faint that it is virtually invisible. It is not helped by the fact that there is no emotion coming from H. We are one step closer to D and he shows nothing. Maybe he grieved a long time ago before BD or maybe it is numbed by his A or whatever else he is doing. Whatever it is, it feels like a kick in the gut.
Just can't seem to stop the tears at the moment.
BT, it is perfectly fine to be sad. This is terrible what we are going through. It's not fair, painful, and difficult. But even though you feel like the carrot, you are really still the bean. Your H doesn't have the courage to face his emotions and problems. You on the other hand are working so hard to be the best you, and have enough bravery to continue on this journey even in grief.
Bravo! I cyber salute you.
E
Just chiming in to support you BT! I'm not really sure the right words to say. But I understand the pain you are experiencing. And you aren't alone.
Sometimes it's ok to be weak. To spend a day or two crying into a bowl of ice cream. Nobody is going to judge you for that. The decision you made was so tough that Id be surprised if it WERENT hitting you hard this week.
Take your time to recover. And come back stronger.
Your H doesn't have the courage to face his emotions and problems.
E
Thanks, E. I guess I am just having lots of self doubt and I question my part in all of this and start believing my H's words that maybe we are here because I am the broken one. I know it is not true, but it is easy for those self esteem issues to rear their ugly heads when you are feeling down.
Really tough couple of days and feeling more like a mushy carrot than that glorious cup of coffee. I feel like I have regressed back the weeks right after BD. Sadness, incredible heartache, no appetite and no sleep. I guess the finality that comes with filing for D is causing a second wave of grief. Of course there are also brief moments where I question whether it was the right step to take. Maybe I am being the coward now by giving up too soon on my H and M. I am just trying to be gentle on myself and allow myself some time to be sad and know that for right now that is ok.
I think I said this before, but I think in many ways DB can keep us from grieving enough earlier on since we are working so hard on ourselves, GAL, and still having hope for a new R with our spouse. Now that hope is so so faint that it is virtually invisible. It is not helped by the fact that there is no emotion coming from H. We are one step closer to D and he shows nothing. Maybe he grieved a long time ago before BD or maybe it is numbed by his A or whatever else he is doing. Whatever it is, it feels like a kick in the gut.
Just can't seem to stop the tears at the moment.
BT, I agree that denial is a danger of trying to 'stand by your M'. I am all about this principle, and DBing. And maybe denial is such a natural part of the grieving process there's no avoiding it, and these forums just give that denial a form to take. But I do think letting go and moving forward is so important.
You didn't make any decisions. Filing D? After he BD's you, betrays you, then when confronted looks you in the eye and tells you he's not going to end his A or even keep her out of your very own bed? No, the decision to protect yourself isn't a decision. This is self defense all the way.
There is absolutely nothing noble in being mistreated, abused, betrayed, and destroyed repeatedly. It's "nice guy" syndrome to think that if we just put up with enough pain then somehow God will reward us with what we want, a restored M. That's not how it works. There's no payoff for being stupid. Just years and years of more pain, more betrayals, and more of the same. I am so glad you aren't going to put up with that, because it's not ok, the vast majority of the time the cheating spouse won't change, and if they do it will be BECAUSE you won't put up with it.
I did read on another post about the article, about how men's #1 need is to be admired/accepted/approved of by their wife. That for me is completely true. And understanding and wanting to fulfill my desires physically was tied to that for me. That was neglected in my R, to the point where my M was teetering on the edge. I am really proud of you for still reading about this, learning about this, reflecting, even in the midst of your own struggles. I see how you are talking and think that you will be a much better partner, more validating, and more nurturing.
But A's and BD's are never ok in my book, and completely disproportionate to whatever problems you two had together. So I applaud your 'decision' (which was the only option) and feel you should continue to move forward without remorse. You can feel loss. You can feel pain. You can feel denial (hope), and anger. But you darn sure shouldn't feel responsibility at this point.
Well stated as usual, Zues!
Your H doesn't have the courage to face his emotions and problems.
E
Thanks, E. I guess I am just having lots of self doubt and I question my part in all of this and start believing my H's words that maybe we are here because I am the broken one. I know it is not true, but it is easy for those self esteem issues to rear their ugly heads when you are feeling down.
No. No. No. No!
You own up for your part. That's healthy and realistic. But it is almost never one persons. Your H is undermining your self-esteem to prop his up.
We are all sometimes the carrot. You are not going through something the rest of us avoid. It will pass, and you are doing as well as any of us at the stage you are.
Hang in there and believe in yourself. You are making progress on you. Don't let your H set the agenda. You focus on you. Let your H focus on himself. Maybe then he will eventually come around to face his own issues.
Feeling much better the past couple of days due to exercise and GAL. Yesterday I spent the day going for a long morning walk, going to the local farmer's market, shopping, and lunch. You really find out who your friends are when times are tough like this, but you also realize how quick people are to be pro-divorce. They only mean well and they just want to see your pain end and want you to be happy. I feel like this might be the only solution my H has been hearing from the beginning. I believe the OW comes from a divorced family and a mother type figure he also works with is a divorcee. She took my H under her wings as soon as he started his new job. At one point early on H said that he talked to people who said that D is not so bad. So sad.
While I feel filing was the only viable next step, I am by no means content about the decision and I still have lots of unresolved feelings. My H has no remorse for A and felt it was ok to keep disrespecting me by bringing her into my home. I am not sure what else I could have done. That being said, I 100% believe it is unnecessary in our case. If only both of us were willing to put in the hard work. Another M unnecessarily on the road to becoming part of the D stats. There has been no word from my H in response to my L's emails. My L asked if I have heard from him and I said no. I do wonder if some panic is setting in. As I said, I don't really think my H thought about this in detail. We are trying to set the initial status hearing. Looks like the the best viable date is the day before our wedding anniversary. There is a small part of me that still hopes that my H will wake up and realizes what a mistake this is. I am not expecting it though.
For the vets, what is the best course of action with my H as far as interactions at this point? Going dark, LRT, dim??
One other topic I wanted to touch on was DB and dealing with an active A. Before I filed, I did send message to OW to tell her I hope she is happy for contributing to the distruction of an M and that she has no business being in her position. I felt it important that she knows that I know who she is. I am assuming my H had shared our conversations, but not certain. Just trying to help it out of the fantasy stage by shining some light on it and adding some pressure.
I do have to say that I think one area of DB approaches that I am not entirely convinced of is how to deal with an active A. I think that Starsky's approach of snooping to confirm and then tough love by exposing it and doing everything to make it die out ASAP might be the better approach versus trying to wait it out and friend your spouse back. I think the longer the A goes on, the harder R will be. More importantly, there are considerations of the affects of one's self-esteem and mental health by just living with it. Just my observation from trying to do the later. Hard to know for sure, but I think there needs to be more discussion around the various approaches.
Me too photoka but it is from the granmother story that she had posted here.
Bt13 im sorry you are feeling alone right now and that your friends are not as helpful as you need them to be but that is why you are here. Lean on us and get the kind of support and information that can aid you through this journey.
Maybe your H is digesting the news and may do some serious thinking about the ramifications. Keep thinking positively that it might have a positive affect vs a negative one.
Hugs to you.
BT, I'd just leave him completely alone right now. If he doesn't respond to L, the process will still move forward.
Is separation not a legal step in your state, before D?
That is what I figured. I had not planned to reach out. No seperation required before D in my state.
Just realizing that the last 6 months is finally catching up with me energy wise. Feeling super drained physically, emotionally, and mentally. Really have noticed it in bootcamp the last few sessions. Nothing like a strenuous bootcamp to bring out a good stress cry. So exhausted and it is only Monday.
The emotional and mental turmoil is draining! Give yourself a break and rest.
I went to a church concert last night and parts of it was quite moving. I also had a few short conversations with H during the day that were not bad at all, just a little intense. Today, I had an appointment for a massage, but the therapist had to cancel - and I was really relieved, I just want to recuperate from yesterday!
H is away for a few days, and I'm happy to sit still and listen to the silence and get a chance to write.
BT, it is soooo exhausting. When you can, give yourself a break and relax somewhere. Watch a sunset, a silly senseless show, or read a book with no advice. Just try to take care of yourself.
You deserve it!
E
Ok, I need to get a grip. My H and I cannot seem to have a civil conversation anymore. I don't like the person I am in these conversations and I need to stop. It is like I have forgotten DB 101. I know what I am supposed to do in dealing with an irrational person, but he just [censored] me in with the stuff he says.
H came over to get some things. He did not look like he was doing great. I asked him to sitdown and chat. I wanted to try to have a calm conversation about how he is feeling about D and proceeding forward. It is important to me that we are both secure in this decision and find a way to work together. I just wan him to open up to me and let me know what he is thinking and feeling. I kniw niw thus is just not feasible for him. The conversation quickly turned to how I said I wouldn't file and did not believe in D, but yet I filed. So yes, now D is my fault. I firmly said that I am responsible for half of our M issues, but the D rests on his shoulders. I tried to explain why and that it was not wanted to do, but felt he gave me no choice due to continuing A, the lying and needed to protect myself financially. He quickly tried to shift the entire blame to me. He is adamant that he can have A and be assessing our M. I told him that is not realistically feasible and that I will not live in open M. Of couse, he reiterated his favorite line that it can not be an open M because we are no longer M.
That is when I let l lose and unleashed all of the pain and hurt that has been bottled up over the past 6 months and beyond. It was not pretty. I asked him how he can look at himself in the mirror with the lying and the A. That I am disgusted that after 14 yrs together, he has made me (and our M) feel like a piece of garbage that can be easily thrown away and how hurtful that is to me. I said that I felt sorry that he thinks the answer is to run and that will lead him to exactly what he fears, which is being old and alone. I said that I can rest in knowing that I gave 100% effort over the past 6 months to trying to save our M. He just kept putting down everything down I said. Like saying, "Yes, you did such a great job of trying to save our M."
At that point I know I should have stopped and left the house. Instead, I said some things to be hurtful. That is not the person I want to be and I am sorry I let it go there. It just makes me upset that he refuses, or more likely, is incapable of seeing his part in all of this. He also was making it clear he is going to be difficult about splitting our stuff up and is going to try get as much out of D as possible. At one point we did hug after the hostility died down a bit. I just cried and said this was so hard and it was not how I wanted things to be. I also did send text later that night apologizing for some of my words and that it was because I am hurting and in pain right now. I said I would give up all of our stuff if it meant we could save our M.
It sounds like you still think you can reach him with rational words and logic, or appeal to his empathy. And when that didn't work (which it won't as long as A is active, I believe), you got frustrated and angry. And you were trying to get him to agree that his behavior forced your hand, which is obviously not going to happen - you're not going to get his agreement or approval...
So better to leave him alone. These thoughts could perhaps be expressed in a letter at some point, so no argument could arise from it and he could think about it without feeling defensive. But he is in a total, irrational fog of denial.
I understand the hurt. I truly do. I think this went south the moment you asked him to sit down and talk, though, not later in the conversation. You wanted to talk, I don't think he did. Be cheerful, brief and busy. If he comes again, maybe have someone else there? I wouldn't leave him alone since he has a history of taking mutual stuff.
Sorry BT. Sounds like a devastating day. Keep breathing. And please, take care of yourself.
So BT, sounds like it was a rough day for your db. Ok, that happens to all of us. ALL of us.
What you do next will tell you something. Are you going to look at that interaction and see how you were not the woman you want to be. I am sure there were a few things there you will see that you will learn from.
The other thing you can do is look to see the positives. You stood firm in your Stance of protecting yourself. No open marriage, no matter what he responded with, is your boundary. So there is some good there.
Living and learning, and moving forward.
Also thank you for the recommendations on the brene tedtalk. I need to let that sink in a bit. It parallels what we have discussed in IC (he must have watched the video to
).
So I watched the second vid you recommended on the misconceptions of male sexuality, Wow. I'd seen some of her other Presentations like infidelity and sexuality, but That one was a pretty eye opener. That with the SSM video from MWD is some powerful stuff.
Thanks again!!!
I really hope today went better.
Hi BT. How are you today? I hope it went better for you. I know I'm struggling with DBing right now too. All we can do is climb on the horse and try again. You are getting stronger and better every day! It's just hard to see it when you are living in the sitch.
***hugs***
E
It sounds like you still think you can reach him with rational words and logic, or appeal to his empathy. And when that didn't work (which it won't as long as A is active, I believe), you got frustrated and angry. And you were trying to get him to agree that his behavior forced your hand, which is obviously not going to happen - you're not going to get his agreement or approval...
So better to leave him alone. These thoughts could perhaps be expressed in a letter at some point, so no argument could arise from it and he could think about it without feeling defensive. But he is in a total, irrational fog of denial.
I understand the hurt. I truly do. I think this went south the moment you asked him to sit down and talk, though, not later in the conversation. You wanted to talk, I don't think he did. Be cheerful, brief and busy. If he comes again, maybe have someone else there? I wouldn't leave him alone since he has a history of taking mutual stuff.
Yes, this is all spot on. I don't tknow what I was thinking. Sigh...
Oh, and BT- see my post on Matt777's last thread. I love everything you said about anger being hurt transformed into an easier to deal with emotion...but I don't think personality disorders are bad for relationships.
Ok, so let me restate. I believe personality disorders are bad for relationships if treatment is not sought and issues are not managed properly. There are two challenges with this I see right off the bat. 1) You have to be willing to accept that you have a personality disorder and be willing to make changes, and 2) societies views on mental health are not predisposed to people doing the former. There is still too much stigma around mental health in this country. I don't even think most people really know that PDs are. I only just started reading up on them and it still seems scary to think I might fall within one of the clusters. What does that mean? Am I broken? Can I be fixed? I was talking to a friend on Sunday who has to pay for all couseling services for her M out of pocket. Not covered. At all. Even if someone knew they had a personality disorder, the chances of them sharing that with a potential partner I believe would be very low.
I just don't see how you can have a successful relation otherwise. An example would be narcissism and selfishness. You cannot have a successful marriage if one partner is unable or willing to be selfless. Could you just accept a partner who was selfish all of the time? I believe a healthy M is often about putting you often putting your self interests aside for what is best for the M/we. Another example would be if you are an avoidant personality who does not fully open up to your spouse for fear of rejection. Without that you are creating a marriage with limited emotional connection. Could you stay married to someone who never really let you know who they are? People with personality disorders have to be open to change and working on their issues. if this is the case, then yes, PDs are not bad for Rs. The two examples I shared could easily be me and my H.
Someday I hope to find a woman with her own personality disorder. Once we are M we form a PARTNERSHIP with COMBINED personality disorders. Instead of excusing our problems and condemning our partners, we form a broken team. We honestly communicate what those issues are, put each other's emotions as important as our own, and strive to work together to find a way that both people feel safe, valued, and loved. At least most of the time.
I am confident that some day you will find that woman!!
I haven't fixed my personality disorders. But I have learned how to manage it a bit, and how to communicate it to a potential partner. Now the question will be whether I can find a woman someday with the same viewpoint. Good thing I'm still in grieving so I don't have to wrestle that alligator at the moment!
E, doing much better today! Thanks for asking. Has a lot to do with fun GAL over the past few days. Laughter is so healing for the soul. Also, realizing I have to let go of emotions and resentment during D process otherwise I will undo DB and be an angry and bitter woman. I hate bitter coffee!! If I have to give away more money to H than I like, so be it. It is what it is and I cannot change the laws. Plus, the more he senses it bugs me, the more he will dig in. I will just have to go out and make more. After D of course.
Zephyr, thank you for highlighting some positives from my interaction. It has always been easy for me to focus on what I do wrong. Really, sticking to my boundry was a feat and I am proud of that. Glad you found the videos useful.
Question, has anyone heard of discernment counseling or know of anyone who did this? Just curious of outcomes. Also, I have been looking for counselor that will work with H and I both through divorce process. Since we don't have kids, I have not had any luck finding someone who will work with us. Does that seem strange? Not that my H would likely go.
I agree completely BT. Yeah, for me to say PD's aren't bad for relationships wasn't well stated. I think we're on the same page on this one.
By the way, I appreciate the positive comment. You know, one of my biggest needs is just to be ok. Be good enough. Do it right. I try hard all day, every day. When I get a genuine compliment it puts wind in my sails.
Meanwhile I've been getting text messages from STBX, they are just fatiguing. This is not an exaggeration- in the last year if you totaled the sum of all of her communication with me in text/email it is entirely negative and critical. Nothing over the top, but if you read what she writes you can tell the tone is consistently expressing things like "sigh, I have to deal with this guy", or "eyeroll, make sure to get this right", or "I don't want to talk to you but someone has to tell you how to parent", etc, etc.
I love games, but when there's a game and no matter what you do you can't win, at some point you have to stop playing. Particularly when losing comes with a sting. There was nothing I wanted to do more in the world then love and honor STBX as my wife for the rest of our lives. Obviously I failed to do that in the ways she needed, and obviously I didn't leave her despite our problems. The point is this woman has criticized me to a point that I have had to mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and physically close her off from me in every way to protect myself. When I get these texts now I just shake my head and thank the stars above I don't have to live with that.
Without the confidence that I can earn people's acceptance, I can't feel safe or be emotionally vulnerable with them, and I have to close them off and demote their words so they don't hurt me. Meanwhile when someone shows that I can earn their approval, it makes me want to walk through walls to not let them down. Maybe that's a human thing, maybe it's a guy thing, maybe that's a me thing...or maybe all of the above but more so for me than for most (which is why I fight so hard to do a good job). I do think (many) guys are like puppies that just want to be 'good dogs'.
BT, I think you've done a great job finding ways to be positive more and more of the time, even at a time when finding something to be positive about can be like trying to find an Alligator in Minnesota. But no matter how bad your WAH is treating you, and walking out on the M is hard to top, when you can manage through the pain, keep quiet when there's nothing positive to say, and still find a way to say a few good words when there is something good to say (instead of withholding them because he doesn't deserve them until he does much more)...that is a big win for you. Your heart will feel lighter, and I think the men in your life will light up.
Yes, all of this bubbled out of me from one casual compliment.
In the meantime BT, I'd like to know more about what you're saying your PD is. Are you saying you're afraid of rejection and avoidant? How has this played out? What would you do differently or what are you trying to do differently?
Struggling in a big way today. Feeling so sad and depressed. I have not really felt like doing anything all week and am just empty inside. I am very conflicted about proceeding with D and contemplating calling L tomorrow to ask for delay. It is just not what I want, but feel /felt it was my only option with the [censored] A being brought repeatidly into my home. Why I still have any desire to be with my H is beyond me, but I do still love him. There is just so much unsettled in all of this. I keep going back to the fact that we never once really tried to fix our M and it makes me so upset. It does not help that our anniversary is exactly one month away.
I honestly don't think H is certain he wants D either, but the A is getting in the way. He just keeps saying the same thing. "I don't see how we can get past this, do you?" It is the question at the end that causes pause. I have not spoken with him since we last spoke on Monday. I sent him very business like email on Thursay about finances asking that we both stop making personal charges on joint checking and just leave it for mortgage. Of course he keeps making charges, but I opted to not say anything further.
H submitted his response/ paper work to my petition on Thursday. Want to call him and ask how it felt to file his portion. Did he cry, was he sick to his stomach, and did he feel immense heartache like I did when I filed?? To date I have seen virtually no emotion from him and I just don't understand.
I guess I have temporarily moved back to denial?? This (censored)!! Just not sure what I am doing and feel lost and alone.
Just a couple of questions. Since I have a business trip, H is going to be staying at house to stay with our dog tomorrow night. I made some homemade muffins as a thank you. Is that ok? Also, trying to decide if I make up bed in spare bedroom or let him deal with it. Thoughts? It seems like the right thing to do, but he has been so nasty and cold since I exposed A.
My advice is that the muffins are fine. It's certainly something you would do for a friend. I'd leave the bed decision to him though. Too much emphasis he could put on either direction.
Wish we could go out for drinks.
Hang in there.
hugs
E
Thanks, E. I would love to host an in person DB happy hour for you and sommany others on here. Maybe we need to have a virtual one at a specified time later in the week. Drinks and posting!!
(((Bt13))
Sorry you are going through this. My heart goes out to you. It is so natural to want to know that your spouse has remorse. That he has feelings similar to yours. That he is suffering as well. How could he not be on some level? Perhaps he cannot allow himself to feel that way now but at some point he will have to.
It's frusturating that he did not try to fix it with you, but at least you will be able to look back knowing you did all you could do and have grown from this. Be the best person you could be and the rest will all fall in place (that's what I'm trying to put into effect on my good days
I wish I could offer more advise, but everything seems to be counterintuitive and I am still learning.
Thanks, J. It is just so easy to start feeling down on myself. I have so many regrets and remorse for my part. I just feel so hurt that after 14 years together that he does not see anything in me worth fighting for. Part of me is still hoping fir a Hollywood ending where my H at the last minute decides to fight for me and our H. I need to let it go.
I will keep on growing and being the best version of me as possible. I know I have read a number of other threads where others seem to see filing for D or giving up as a reason to stop the LBS' personal growth. I think it could not be further from the truth. I don't plan to stopping working on me just because I filed. That would mean I was doing this all for my M and H and that is not the case. If anything, filing adds more incentive and pressure to work at BT2.0 even harder.
Part of me is still hoping fir a Hollywood ending where my H at the last minute decides to fight for me and our H. I need to let it go.
We all get it BT. I felt this way for the first three months for sure, and then after that it's been a slow acceptance. Shoot, even still it can be hard to believe because it just looks so stupid we can't believe we're really throwing it away. It's like, I get that you've been telling me this for a year, and that we're filing, and mediating, but it looks so stupid to us that we can't believe someone else could look at this and come to such a destructive conclusion.
The bad news BT is this is a LONG road. IC told me 3-5 years. Oof. It does get easier though, particularly when you're making good decisions for yourself along the way.
Hang in.
Meanwhile I've been getting text messages from STBX, they are just fatiguing. This is not an exaggeration- in the last year if you totaled the sum of all of her communication with me in text/email it is entirely negative and critical.
Yeah, I am sure my H feels the same way. Though in my defense, they have all related discoveries related to A.
Obviously I failed to do that in the ways she needed, and obviously I didn't leave her despite our problems. The point is this woman has criticized me to a point that I have had to mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and physically close her off from me in every way to protect myself.
Did you do this pre or post BD? How did you tell her this was hurting you? I realize now that my H and I both had a problem with emotional dishonesty for a long time in our M. I think neither of us really spoke our true feelings out of fear of rejection/vulnerability. That is a must in a healty M. I think I need to learn to be vulnerable without the other person necessarily "earning it" first.
BT, I think you've done a great job finding ways to be positive more and more of the time, even at a time when finding something to be positive about can be like trying to find an Alligator in Minnesota. But no matter how bad your WAH is treating you, and walking out on the M is hard to top, when you can manage through the pain, keep quiet when there's nothing positive to say, and still find a way to say a few good words when there is something good to say (instead of withholding them because he doesn't deserve them until he does much more)...that is a big win for you. Your heart will feel lighter, and I think the men in your life will light up.
In the meantime BT, I'd like to know more about what you're saying your PD is. Are you saying you're afraid of rejection and avoidant? How has this played out? What would you do differently or what are you trying to do differently?
I am trying to stay positive. Sometimes, like this past weekend it is super hard.
Yes, I am afraid of rejection big time. One of my biggest faults is not saying what I am truly thinking because I feel it is wrong or the other person will love me less because of how I feel, especially if I am angry with them. The problem is that this either builds into resentment or I finally explode and it all comes out in a very hurtful and unconstructive way. I guess worry that people will see me as broken, so I avoid my feelings and confrontation. I am the person that goes through things a dozen times in my head before I say it outloud. I was even this was at work until about 5 years ago. When I stopped, I received 3 big promotions in a row. Much higher stakes with love and harder to change. Since DB, I have been much more open than I ever have with H about my feelings, but not just him. Also with my mom, colleagues, and friends.
Has anybody on here had any personal experience or know anyone who has gone through discernment counseling? Thoughts??
I found a few people in my area that specialize in this. It was developed based out of a study in Minnesota after they found that do many people regretted decision to D and there is not a lot of specialized support for those in "limbo". It is the step to decide what path to take--D, status quo, or intensive MT. I shared with H and he is contemplating going. My expectations are low. The questions are to elicit if the leaning out spouse is really done by asking questions in a way that might get them to reconsider or rethink their position. i.e. I hear you say that you are no longer in love with your spouse. My question is do you want to try to be in love with your spouse again?
Hey BT.
Did you do this pre or post BD? How did you tell her this was hurting you?
I had pretty much closed off pre-BD...however I closed off the way you'd curl up into a ball to defend yourself. Remember, the last 3 years of our M we were speaking only about 50% of the time. For me I withdrew because it got to the point I couldn't engage with her without feeling like I got cut to ribbons.
Now, at this point it wasn't that she was verbally critical (that came post BD). It just seemed that I didn't get a voice. Often I felt I wasn't even there. It was her and the kids, I was just the guy that she had to put up with to have the bills paid.
When I tried to communicate with her I felt completely unheard or dismissed. And that was very hard for me. So I just gave up. I suppose a lot like a WAS would feel they tried for years to get through to their spouse. I wrote heartfelt letters. I pleaded. Begged. Ranted occasionally. Explained. Finally I was just defeated. Each time I opened up I hoped she would hear me, and maybe listen to what I was saying. And I know she tried at times, and the tragedy is that there were times when I felt she got it and I truly felt more loved than ever before. But it was like she just couldn't understand how it felt for me, or who I was, or what I needed, and there was just too much disconnect. And then I'd end up feeling completely rejected, because the person I loved the most either misunderstood me or didn't care for me.
To do it over again I would've done some things differently. I would have tried to be more patient and accepting of her. If the M was awful for me, I now think I should've just sucked it up, taken it on the chin that my W didn't have the skills to be a good partner, prayed for strength to accept a poor M and to let go of my resentment, and focused on what I could do myself- continue to be a loving H and good father. So what if the M isn't satisfying to me? I should've done a better job on my half, and maybe after a number of years she would've come around had I been a better H, and if not maybe I would've found joy in at least doing my part well, and having someone to love and honor.
This is a big test to me when it comes to 'am I ready to be in a new R': How would I be able to handle it if my next R was as bad as the last? We can tell ourselves stories about how much we've grown, and hope that our growth will unlock the keys to a better R in the future...but to me the test of growth would be if I could've handled that affectionless, sexless, intamacyless, romanceless, and partnerless experience we called an M- and NOT withdrawn or grown resentful. I'm still not sure if I could handle that if you put me back there.
To answer your question from my other thread- I put too much weight into what STBX thought of me. It was like I didn't approve of myself, and I was trying to use her love to make up for that. But it was a bottomless hole that she couldn't fill, and I thought it was her fault for not loving me enough to fill it, and that she was responsible for my pain because if she cared she wouldn't let me hurt that way.
So I had some legitimate reasons to feel dismissed and diminished...at the same time I was too needy, and I think she got to the point she felt she could never meet my needs (which was true in some ways because she couldn't fill the hole in my heart) and so she just started dismissing everything I was saying as 'more whining', even when much of it was genuine and legitimate. To play out the cycle it went
"Z doesn't think he's good enough and wants STBX to love him to prove him wrong, but Z is terrified that STBX won't think he's good enough either, so Z becomes needy and demanding wanting constant assurance from STBX that she approves of him, so STBX gets tired because it's never enough, then STBX gets tired of caring what Z thinks/wants/needs because she can't win, then Z feels diminished and like he isn't being heard or cared for and this is even harder because it's his worst fear, then he tries communicating that and feels misunderstood and unheard, then he too feels continuously rejected and decides he doesn't care what STBX thinks of him anymore, then they don't talk for months at a time..."God what a disaster.
Maybe I have grown a bit. I don't think I'd take part in a cycle like that again. I do love myself now. I don't believe I'm a bottomless pit. And I think I could separate my happiness from my marriage, I think I could let go of my expectations now that I'm not as needy, and could serve my partner better and longer without the same levels of resentment and despair.
PS- I think had we stayed M we would've found a way to break out of this cycle. I'm not the kind of guy that gives up, and I think given time we could've gotten through this. I guess we may not get to find out the answer to that one.
BT, I think one of my H's and mine biggest faults is that in order to avoid conflict, rejection, hurting the other person emotionally we never fought in the years we were together. Disagreements are important in a relationship, I now realize, but maybe too late. Years of suppressing our feelings was a disaster waiting to happen.
Would be great to invent a time machine.
E
Since summer has unofficially ended with Labor Day, I thought I should wrap up my summer goals and start on some new ones for fall.
Recap of summer goals......
-- Lose an additional 18 lbs by end of summer. I have already lost around 25.
Lost another 5, so only 13 more to go!
Ok, well stayed relatively flat at 30 lbs list since BD. This goal will get carried over to the fall list. Even though I did not lose the additional 13 lbs, I have maintained my exercise all summer with only a few breaks.
-- Take do a creative class-art, graphic design, photography, etc.
Done! Took a jewelry making class on Sunday.
Also, signed up for 6 week colored pencil class for the fall. The real big success is that I applied for a board position with our city culture and arts committee and was elected to the position!!
-- Make some new friends and try some new Meetup groups.
Took a larger leap and created my own. First Meetup tonight with 7 coming. Around 30 have joined.
I have been doing more things with fellow bootcampers and my Meetup group has continued on. There are about 50 in my group and I schedule something once a month.
-- Work on figuring out next career move. I am in a bit of a transition spot.
For some reason, I am not making progress here. I think with everything going on this is a bit too daunting and maybe having something stable in my life is a good thing.
-- Get out and enjoy the summer with some weekend trips with friends.
Have had a number of outings with friends and am going hiking and fishing in Wyoming with parents, brother and dog in another week. Have Wipeout race in August. Possible trip to local mountains.
Overall, even considering what transpired with H, I feel that my summer was a success on many other fronts. I did get out and enjoy spending time with friends and family. Given the enormity of the loss of my M, it could have been much worse had I not worked on me.
Going to do some reflecting on fall goals over the weekend and post early next week.
Great job! I've never seen someone accomplish all their goals, unless they set the bar too low.
So, phase 1 is done. Does the next phase elevate the attention you give to the career issue? Maybe in addition to goals, you think about ranking the priorities, and also amount of effort each will take to accomplish in your estimation, knowing your strengths & weaknesses. I suspect even if you kept the same goals, the priorities have shifted given what you accomplished or didn't in the previous phase.
Congratulations! Its so easy to wallow in depression, and you most certainly took action. Your independence and ambition is quite impressive. You should be proud. I still have to get to that point and enjoy reading your posts for insight and inspiration.
BT, this is great! I love that you went back and reflected on the goals for yourself and let us view that thinking!
Can't wait to see your post next week!
E
I love these posts, too. So similar to my own situation...you encourage me, BT. :-)
Interesting night. Watching the evening news and my H was in a story related to his job. Noticed he was not wearing his wedding ring. Strangely, other than an initial slight pit in my stomach and a little sadness, I actual am feeling surprisingly indifferent about it.
I honestly don't think H is certain he wants D either, but the A is getting in the way. He just keeps saying the same thing. "I don't see how we can get past this, do you?" It is the question at the end that causes pause.
Just curious if he keeps saying this and you dont want a D why you didn't respond with a yes I do see a way past this?
I don't know anything about Discernment Therapy other than what I just saw on their website. I'd want someone who practices marriage and family therapy who has a systems theory or attachment theory (sometimes they'll say emotionally-focused therapy) orientation if possible (most LMFTs are trained in systems theory). And, definitely who is pro-marriage while understanding that some marriages can't be repaired.
But if he is really willing. I don't see why not. If he has already made up his mind & just wants you to work on moving on, then it's not the time.
I honestly don't think H is certain he wants D either, but the A is getting in the way. He just keeps saying the same thing. "I don't see how we can get past this, do you?" It is the question at the end that causes pause.
Just curious if he keeps saying this and you dont want a D why you didn't respond with a yes I do see a way past this?
Actually, I have said yes there is on multiple occasions. If there is a will, there is a way. People do it all of the time.
I don't know anything about Discernment Therapy other than what I just saw on their website. I'd want someone who practices marriage and family therapy who has a systems theory or attachment theory (sometimes they'll say emotionally-focused therapy) orientation if possible (most LMFTs are trained in systems theory). And, definitely who is pro-marriage while understanding that some marriages can't be repaired.
But if he is really willing. I don't see why not. If he has already made up his mind & just wants you to work on moving on, then it's not the time.
Yes, the person I found is very pro marriage and her goal is always to save it. She also practices emotional based therapy. Received TM on Tuesday from H asking what I hope to get out of it and what he is going gain by it. I just responded saying that I want it to be about us and not me vs him. That it does not make sense to give up on a 13 yr M without trying to go speak with someone who can tell us different paths forward based on their experience. I also said that emotions have been high on both ends and that I don't think that is a good place to be making such life altering decisions and I was not confident in proceeding with D. I don't want to have regrets or what ifs down the road. Said I thought he would gain the same out of it. Shared the link with him to that website. Have not heard back yet.
Asitis, Julie, E, and Judy,
Thanks for your support. Judy, I am glad you somehow find encouragement in my posts. I have often felt like a case study in how not to DB. I do see a number of similarities in our stories.
Julie, interesting that you
Zeus, I am still digesting your post and will reply this weekend when I have more time to think.
As long as he isn't 100% sure (at least in his mind), then he gets some clarity perhaps. If he is, it's just a waste of time. If he is 99.9% sure, you might want to hold off, and see if you can let some of the tension die down a bit, and then try it.
Not sure what happened to my previous post. Trying again!
Asitis, Julie, E, and Judy,
Thanks for your support.
Judy, I am glad you somehow find encouragement in my posts. I have often felt like a case study in how NOT to DB. I do see a number of similarities in our stories.
Julie, interesting that you mention independence as impressive. Was one of the things my H mentioned was an issue. He said I was too independent, which In some sense is probably true. I think I am ok doing my own thing too much, but just got used to it with his schooling. He was gone most of the summer for last 7 years with his research, so I had to be ok going it alone. The problem was that even though I missed him when he was gone, I had gotten so used to doing my own thing and so when he would come home I would get irritated because he but a kink in the rhythm I had created. This is where practicing gratitude would have done me good.
Zeus, I am still digesting your post and will reply this weekend when I have more time to think.
Yes, the person I found is very pro marriage and her goal is always to save it. She also practices emotional based therapy. Received TM on Tuesday from H asking what I hope to get out of it and what he is going gain by it. I just responded saying that I want it to be about us and not me vs him. That it does not make sense to give up on a 13 yr M without trying to go speak with someone who can tell us different paths forward based on their experience. I also said that emotions have been high on both ends and that I don't think that is a good place to be making such life altering decisions and I was not confident in proceeding with D. I don't want to have regrets or what ifs down the road. Said I thought he would gain the same out of it. Shared the link with him to that website. Have not heard back yet.
I hope he get back to you and be willing to see a counselor. What he will gain from it? Exactly as much as he puts into it...
Your signature says you're separated in-house - is he still there?
Been a while since I posted because I was out all last week on business. Had a very successful trip with busy evenings so no time to post. Oh, and I learned that I know how to do the Heimlich manuever. I was out to dinner with a bunch of colleagues when my coworker started choking and I had to jump into action. Super scary!
It has been a low-key weekend. I always turn into a homebody after being a away for work, so using the time to rest, work on new goals, re-read DR.
Other news is that H has agreed to go to couseling session tomorrow night. I am keeping my expectations very low. At this point, I feel like it can't make things worse. He decided to go after briefly speaking to the therapist. She said it took some convincing after there was some initial confusion. He and I spoke briefly before he spoke with therapist. He started spew fest, but I tried to validate as best I could, threw in some truth darts, and when he started to go into to blaming me for filing for divorce and the conversation started to go down cheeseless tunnel and I felt myself getting worked up, I said it was not constructive and ended conversation. At one point he said he still loved me too after I said I still loved him. That was the one bright spot. There is still stuff he says that makes me think he does not want D. I still think he is mostly afraid to try and work on things even though he might have parts of him that wants that. I am sure he is afraid of continuing to feel pain and to be let down again.
H stayed at house with dog while I was away. Noticed sticky note on spare bedroom dresser. Was note from OW that she assuming stuck on something that said, "thinking about you. XOXO." Not sure of his point in leaving that benind in a visible spot that I would see. Just to be hurtful??
Ok, so time for fall goals. Below are the goals I have for the next 4 months. The are in order of priority, but I reserve the right to change that up as needed!
1. Fitness and nutrition lifestyle - continue with improved fitness and nutrition lifestyle. I say lifestyle because this has to just become my way of life versus on and off again routine. This area, in particular weight, has a big impact on my emotional and mental well being and was a major factor in my unhappiness the past 7-8 years. I moved to a desk job right after H and I got married and the weight started to come on. On top of that the stresses from finances and my H's schooling did not help because I am a stress eater. The extra weight was probably the biggest factor in my unhappiness and self-esteem. Of course this affected other things like sex life and taking out my unhappiness on my H. I am just one of those people that will always have to work at being at a healthy weight. I know if an make exercise a part of my daily routine, that it will be easier to maintain. Plus, I notice a major difference in stress level when I exercise.
So a few sub goals: As far as nutrition goes, my goal is to eat healthy approximately 85% of the time. That gives me one day a week to indulge a bit. I already walk 3-4 miles every day, but would like to do a more intensive work out 4 days a week. I am also contemplating running a 1/2 marathon next spring. Out of those efforts I hope to lose another 25 lbs. My goal for the weight loss is the end of February. I would like to be half way to that goal by Thanksgiving.
2. Improving Self-esteem - I put this as almost tied with the first goal as they kind of go hand-in-hand. Many of the issues I brought to my M were directly a result of a low self-esteem. I don't think I fall on the extreme spectrum of this, but more lower to moderate. It is also more relationship based than professional as is the case with many who suffer from LSE. Some specifics areas I need to work on: saying what is on my mind, learning to be ok with confrontation, learning I am a lovable person who deserves love, learning to be vulnerable, and that I am an attractive woman. To help achieve this, I have decided to look for new IC that specializes in this.
3. GAL - continue with getting my life back. That means being more social, making new friends, trying new hobbies, and travel. Travel, especially internationally, is a big part of who I am. I want to plan a couple of domestic trips for next year--- maybe Napa and Hawaii, as well as one international trip that is not work related. Top on my list right now is Vietnam. I also plan to dive into my new city committee board position.
4. Career exploration - starting thinking about what I might want my next position to be, what opportunities are out there, and is owning my own business one of them. I am not ready to make a career move yet. There is just too much going on right now to put in the effort needed for that change.
Hey bt13
You have so much going for you and so many great opportunities ahead of you. As I read your posts (and many other posters here) I just feel like your husband is going to really end up regretting this. I don't know about him leaving a note from OW, but I do question her character and lack of self respect. What type of woman does that? Seriously? She's pathetic. Time will be on your side, because as you know a relationship like that can't last. I'm new at this, but do you think the fact that he knows your still waiting for him and willing to be with him when he's ready, prolongs this? He might not be worried about losing you because he knows how much you want to reconcile?
Very interesting about the counseling though.
As for weight loss, perhaps a nutritionist might be helpful? Personally, I find that completely eliminating sugars and the bad carbs and even a lot of dairy is more helpful than allowing for some indulging because then you no longer have the cravings and can reboot your love for the healthy foods. Think of it as in reaching 5 days without sugars and then you no longer crave them. Relying on filling healthy fats like avocado and hummus and nuts has also been helpful to me. trust me, after a couple of weeks of this, you will actually find the indulging foods too sweet and nauseating. It's also a great motivator when you see results quicker. If you can divorce bust this will be a piece of cake (no pun intended
)
H
Hey bt13
You have so much going for you and so many great opportunities ahead of you. As I read your posts (and many other posters here) I just feel like your husband is going to really end up regretting this. I don't know about him leaving a note from OW, but I do question her character and lack of self respect. What type of woman does that? Seriously? She's pathetic. Time will be on your side, because as you know a relationship like that can't last. I'm new at this, but do you think the fact that he knows your still waiting for him and willing to be with him when he's ready, prolongs this? He might not be worried about losing you because he knows how much you want to reconcile?
Very interesting about the counseling though.
As for weight loss, perhaps a nutritionist might be helpful? Personally, I find that completely eliminating sugars and the bad carbs and even a lot of dairy is more helpful than allowing for some indulging because then you no longer have the cravings and can reboot your love for the healthy foods. Think of it as in reaching 5 days without sugars and then you no longer crave them. Relying on filling healthy fats like avocado and hummus and nuts has also been helpful to me. trust me, after a couple of weeks of this, you will actually find the indulging foods too sweet and nauseating. It's also a great motivator when you see results quicker. If you can divorce bust this will be a piece of cake (no pun intended
)
Yes, she is pathetic. Bad enough having A with married man, but to come in and stay in my home on multiple occasions is over the top. She is disgusting. I did also find out that she did go visit him while he was traveling the month of July. No wonder he was all freaked out when his parents surprised him at hotel at one of the locations a few weeks back. She may have been there.
I am actually in a really good place. I am strong enough to keep moving forward with D. I am by no means certain I would blindly and automatically R with H.
Just a few comments that came up in our conversation:
- he is still livid that I packed up his things and put them in garage. He still does not get my boundry that I would not tolerate A in my home and how that was a violation of my personal space.
-all I care about is money and stuff. Doesn't understand why my filing was in part to protect finances. Yes, I did and do worry about money, and because of that he graduated three degrees and we have zero debt. We could have been splitting up debt instead of savings.
-that I was too focused on A and not on saving our M.
Yes, I was very focused on A, but in the end I am still not sure it was a bad thing. As long as A is going on, we were never going to be at point to work on M anyway. At least I got to point to expose and it to bring it to light where it can start to die out. I was not going to sit there and pretend it was not happening and ignore his lies. If I lose my M because working to find out truth and exposing his A to him, so be it. I have too much self-respect to live like that.
I am glad you are in a good place. I suspect that Moving forward is so much easier then waiting in limbo. (Kind of like md test results. The waiting is the worst part but once you know where you stand you can proceed with action and dignity)
I do understand how frusturating it is dealing with someone that is so far removed from your viewpoint. Kind of like debating with a political hyper vigilante extremist. They are just incapable of rational thought and reflection. It feels like a waste of time to even try. You really have no other option then proceeding with an action that will protect you. It seems like something is clearly black and he keeps saying its white. How do you handle this? You stop playing, which is what you did by filing. His reasoning is just so distorted I get mad when I read this!
I would love to understand psychologically what happens to them to accept this "narcissistic" reasoning? Is it part of their makeup? Something we never recognized in them early on? A weakness they develop because they simply can't handle life? How they were raised? My husband's mom is a big time enabler. I guess it really doesn't matter the whys, but how we proceed.
Personally, I still have to get to that point of proceeding with action. I am still examining my situation making sure it is not white or gray before I make a move. I don't have proof of other woman and I don't really get the feeling there is one anymore. But that whole child support issue is pretty black in everyone's eyes.
So I really look at how you are handling your situation as very helpful. I see you as a success story because of how graciously you are handling this and because of how much you have going for you.
I am actually in a really good place. I am strong enough to keep moving forward with D. I am by no means certain I would blindly and automatically R with H.
Yes, I was very focused on A, but in the end I am still not sure it was a bad thing. As long as A is going on, we were never going to be at point to work on M anyway. At least I got to point to expose and it to bring it to light where it can start to die out. I was not going to sit there and pretend it was not happening and ignore his lies. If I lose my M because working to find out truth and exposing his A to him, so be it. I have too much self-respect to live like that.
I'm in a similar spot....struggling with my decision.
Interesting text from H. He sent Q about something finance related, but for the first time in months he added a nicety to his text. Said he hoped I was having a good day. I think I would have to go back to May to see something like that. For the past few weeks I have been going out of my way to be kind and pleasant in any communication, so maybe it is starting to pay off.
Off to session with H in about an hour. Please free to send any tips based on previous joint counseling experience. Oh, and maybe some positive thoughts and energy. I keep telling myself no expectations, no expectations.
Lots of nervous energy right now.
Just got back from two hour discernment counseling. I actually thought is was pretty good and useful, though I think H is pretty stuck on D. That being said, he has agreed to go to another two hour session in a couple if weeks. The C was very pro-marriage and felt like she really chimed in and contributed in some really good ways to help H see different perspectives on ways to move past this. H was engaged and open during the session. It was a very calm, though a times an emotional conversation (mostly me). There was no yelling or arguing from either of us and there were even a few laughs. I do feel the next session will be a good opportunity to showcase best self and DB. I think on of the topics are positives we each contributed to M. Plus, I think it will help us remove some of the hostility on both sides moving forward with D process, which will allow for more DB opportunity. There are still 6 months before D is finalized. A lifetime in DB and the gift of time.
He has been given assignment to read Love Sense, which he agreed to do. Any thoughts on that book? I have to read After the Affair. Will post more insights gleaned from session tomorrow. Need a glass of wine now.
Hi BT! Sorry I haven't been on here in forever. Just been straight out. Thought of you all frequently though. I'm so glad that your H went to the a session with you and has committed to going to at least one more. At least then, if the D happens, you know you tried absolutely everything you could do to fix the M. Kudos!
I like your goals. They feel very similar to mine right now. My weight gain after my son was born has been a problem for me. I feel like I should be more active, but arthritis and my weight get in the way, and so my self esteem is hurt. If I get the weight off then the arthritis will be better too. It's just not always easy.
Still bothers me that my H can drop weight without a blink and I have to work like a dog. Darn those guy metabolisms! :P
*hugs*
E
E,
I have been super busy too lately and not posting as much. Maybe that is a good sign.
Yes, weight issues stink. It totally effects your self-esteem and happiness, so I feel for you. I was pretty overweight in high school, but lost it all in college. I think I lost 40 when everyone else gained the freshman 15. I swore I would never gain it back and did great until shortly after we married. I then started my first desk job, added in some stress, and started being lazy and it is was not a good mix.
Weight crept back up to the same spot it was in HS.
I also know what health issues can do to. I hurt my lower back a few years ago shoveling the driveway and had horrendous syatic nerve pain on and off for two years. I could barely walk and was grumpy all of the time.
Can you at least go for walks?
Thanks for popping in!
BT, I'm glad you had a good counseling session. I'm not surprised that H is stuck on D as long as he is in an active PA.
Did the boundaries about OW in your home come up?
Pain is really bad. I know both H and I have aches that make us grumpier than we should be.
I thought I would some more thoughts and comments that came from session the other night. I had typed out a long post yesterday, but it some how got deleted before I hit submit.
First, though, I have to admit that since the session I have been having dreams/fantasies/ thoughts about some sort of last minute reconciliation. Ugh. Part of it is reading a few recent success story posts. Those always make me really emotional. In one respect they make me hopeful, but in another they make me sad and jealous. Sad that I apparently am not worth fighting for in my H's eyes and jealous that someone else's spouse did.
Anyway, with regard to the session:
-H told C that he was really hurt that I basically kicked him out of the house without any warning. Said he did not remember me giving him my boundry, so I had to remind him how it all went. He felt there should have been a discuss before I back his stuff up. Well, we know how all of those discussions went before.
-He said I filed without notice, which is also not true because I sent him a TM two days before I did. He was hurt by that as well.
-His timeframe of when he checked out of M changed about a half a dozen times during the session. Went from the course of 5 years ago to Last December with the fight in March being the last straw.
-H said my irrational/unstable behavior the past few weeks confirmed everything. This would be filing when I said never would and packng his things up.
- C backed up my behavior given the A and that that is how most people react. This has been confirmed by reading After the Affair.
-I can tell he is still hiding his true pain and was not fully upfront about how much he was hurt in M.
-He does not want long term R with OW. Just meeting needs temporaily.
-He can't see how to get past this or trust things will be different. IC told him they very much could if we both put in the work.
The sad part was realizing that we were both hurting for the very same reason-lack of emotional connection. We were both felt lonely, undesired, and under appreciated. Of course we each needed our needs met in unique ways, but both of us dealt with it all in unhealthy ways. Withdrawing, not communicating, resentment, A, etc instead of trying to move toward each other. We just lacked the skills needed to do the right thing. I still see there is time. He thinks it is too late.
Still think some truths from IC might have stuck. At least he was for once hearing it from a neutral person.
Back to my reading assignment.
Just a thought, but If he thinks it's too late why did he agree to go to counseling and to read the book? Also why would he admit that OW is not long term?
I just read on someone else's thread that with time many WHs do come back, but usually it's too late because LBS has already moved on.
In one respect they make me hopeful, but in another they make me sad and jealous. Sad that I apparently am not worth fighting for in my H's eyes and jealous that someone else's spouse did.
No, someone else's spouse had a bit of character and the ability to change, and was therefore worth forgiving... That's how I see the outcome. If my H doesn't do the work to repair and improve our M,
he's not worthy of
me.
Anyway, with regard to the session:
-H told C that he was really hurt that I basically kicked him out of the house without any warning. Said he did not remember me giving him my boundry, so I had to remind him how it all went. He felt there should have been a discuss before I back his stuff up. Well, we know how all of those discussions went before.
-He said I filed without notice, which is also not true because I sent him a TM two days before I did. He was hurt by that as well.
-His timeframe of when he checked out of M changed about a half a dozen times during the session. Went from the course of 5 years ago to Last December with the fight in March being the last straw.
-H said my irrational/unstable behavior the past few weeks confirmed everything. This would be filing when I said never would and packng his things up.
- C backed up my behavior given the A and that that is how most people react. This has been confirmed by reading After the Affair.
-I can tell he is still hiding his true pain and was not fully upfront about how much he was hurt in M.
-He does not want long term R with OW. Just meeting needs temporaily.
-He can't see how to get past this or trust things will be different. IC told him they very much could if we both put in the work.
The sad part was realizing that we were both hurting for the very same reason-lack of emotional connection. We were both felt lonely, undesired, and under appreciated. Of course we each needed our needs met in unique ways, but both of us dealt with it all in unhealthy ways. Withdrawing, not communicating, resentment, A, etc instead of trying to move toward each other. We just lacked the skills needed to do the right thing. I still see there is time. He thinks it is too late.
Still think some truths from IC might have stuck. At least he was for once hearing it from a neutral person.
Back to my reading assignment.
Sounds extremely similar to what we've been dealing with. Rewriting history to justify decisions, and yes - similar unmet needs.
I think time has helped us in many ways. It's been 9 months since the A ended (supposedly) and I think H is starting to feel like life is returning to normal.
And when it comes to your H being adamant about wanting D - believe nothing of what they say and 50% of what they do.
Just a thought, but If he thinks it's too late why did he agree to go to counseling and to read the book? Also why would he admit that OW is not long term?
I just read on someone else's thread that with time many WHs do come back, but usually it's too late because LBS has already moved on.
I had those thoughts too. 1)We will see if he has read the book in two weeks. I truly hope he does. I bought it as well. All about EFT and has some great info. Very science based which will resonate with H 2) He said at C he wanted to see if we can figure out way to work better through D.
Still months until D.
In one respect they make me hopeful, but in another they make me sad and jealous. Sad that I apparently am not worth fighting for in my H's eyes and jealous that someone else's spouse did.
No, someone else's spouse had a bit of character and the ability to change, and was therefore worth forgiving... That's how I see the outcome. If my H doesn't do the work to repair and improve our M,
he's not worthy of
me.
Yes, you are right. Love this!!
I apologize in advance, but this is going to be a long one!! Such bad insomnia the past few weeks. My mind is in overdrive with thoughts because of reading my assignment. I think maybe I got 3 hours last night and pretty much the same the few nights before that.
Just finished After the Affair last night. Amazing how one book can lead to so many aha moments and connecting of dots. I am wondering if the plan our C has for us on is to switch books. I have no idea how things in going in paradise with H and OW. Out of sight, more out of mind. It is one of the benefits of him out of the house. Nor do I necessarily care. I do not hear from him at all. I had to text him about something D related and he was back to being short and contentious. I was sure to add pleasantries regardless. Too tired of being angry and back to having more empathy again.
I think there is so much more baggage that we bring from childhood or past relationship than we realize. Part of that is not wanting to admit that you in some ways did not have the perfect childhood or parents. Also, until you see or understand some of what is going on in the context of yourself, it is hard to see how you may be doing the same to your spouse. What is crazy, is that I knew none of this relationship stuff prior to DB and counseling (BT banging head on wall). I do think for next M, if there is one, premarital counseling is a must. The first step in change is understanding what it is that we do that is unhealthy and why. Not all of it is so obvious.
Here are some of my aha moments:
-My biggest emotional triggers from childhood: feeling unsafe, not feeling listened to, not feeling special, and unable to express myself. Not expressing myself and not feeling listened to are the strongest triggers.
-One of the biggest realizations is finally understanding why I think I would get so upset at H, but have a horrible time articulating why. I honestly don't think I knew because it is such a subtle thing, yet at the same time so big. I think that because talking about emotion and feelings was absent from my childhood, I never really learned how to deal with understanding and expressing them. Plus, I am a conflict avoider. People might not like or love me if I say what is on my mind. I would feel things, but would not know how to process it in healthy ways. So when I do express my feelings it is a big deal. To take that step only to feel dismissed just shuts me down. I have really been working on expressing myself in a number of ways: work, H, mom, and friends. I have learned my lesson that bottling stuff up does no one any good and in order to have a healthy R, this has to change.
With H, I would share issues or concerns I was having at work, family or friends, but he would in many cases not listen, give me a solution, or tell me I was over-reacting. I guess that it made me feel stupid, like I could not figure out my own solution, or that I was being childish or silly. What I really wanted and needed was for him to just listen, comfort, and be empathetic. This was with both major stuff and smaller things. I don't know how many times I explained to him what I did for my career. Then one day at a family holiday gathering he announced that he had no clue what I did at work. I found it very hurtful and like he looked down at my job. After that, I was not really interested in sharing when he asked how my day at work was. Other times I would explode because he made me feel stupid.
-Another realization is that growing up I felt unimportant and not special. My parents ran their own business, so they were not around a lot. When they were, there was not a great deal of affirmations or encouragement doled out. Definitely lots of criticism. My H was the first person to truly make me feel special, vibrant, sexy, important, and loved. But about two years into our marriage he slowly stopped doing many of the things he did to expressed this and I started to have insecure thoughts about how invested he was. I don't know if it was school or he just got lazy. The said part is that this insecurity caused me to test him by pushing his buttons. The more our emotional connection broke-down, the more I started to feel like his mother. Not a young, energetic, desirable wife. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, paying bills, baby him when hurt or sick. All while he went to school, which was his only responsibility except for house maintenance and yard work. He got to spend his summers hiking and camping, while I was at home dealing with everyday life. I am not sure why I took so much on, but resentment certainly set in. The less desirable I felt and the more we became disconnected, the less interested in sex I became. I guess I should have put more responsibility on him, but I think as wives we sometimes feel we need to emulate our mothers. The other lesson here is that I need to feel these positive things without my H's help and I am working on it.mThat would have helped things tremendously.
-I am speculating here, but I also wonder after reading the book, if my H does not have deeper seeded issues from being cheated on my his previous fiancé that were compounded by our lack of sex. What I read is that men who are cheated on think it is because they are sexually inadequate. So for my H to have that experience with his fiancé and then to have an inadequate sex life with me, I could see how that could be extremely painful and damaging to the core of who he is. When we first talked about his A, he did mention he felt broken and how painful it was to not have that. The OW confirmed that he was not broken in that way. But it very likely his fiancés affair had nothing to do with his ability to perform that way. I know for me it really had anything to do with his performance or my attraction to him, but it had everything to do with not feeling emotionally connected and resentment. I know I own my part in not digging deeper to figure out the problem. Obviously, I knew it was an issue and that should have been enough, but my H not telling me how hurtful it was for him did not help. I can 100% say that he never communicated much about this with me other than saying we should have more sex.
Well there were a number of needs I was not having met either, but it was never an option to walk out on my M and have an A. I don't know how many times I told him I needed him to be more romantic, do things with other couples/friends, and take initiative with planning things like trips and dates. Unfortunately, if it was not important to H, he was not going to do it.
Anyway, that might seem very critical of my H, but it is an important part of how we arrived here and to learn how to reckonize and mend in the future. I really do appreciate the learning in all of this.
BT, I can totally do walks as long as no hills! That's what I do a lot of. I've lost quite a bit but still have about 60 to go.
Stress and jobs can really add to the issue too. I am a total stress eater as well.
It sounds like this book really opened your mind to some very profound insights about yourself, and how you would like to change. That is great!
I wanted to mention that I have experienced many of the feelings you have - being the 'mom' in the relationship, feeling unseen, etc. - but I have tried to talk to H about it for over a decade, asked him over and over what he feels, talked to counselors to find other ways for me to approach him, and so on. It made no difference whatsoever. So don't feel like you failed by being inarticulate about your feelings. I was told by a male IC that I expressed my needs clearly, in an unblaming way, that my needs were very basic and reasonable, and that I didn't play guessing games.
I hope you get some sleep soon. I blended some aromatherapy oils that helped me tremendously, put me to sleep and helped me sleep through the night. It's a mix of bergamot, lavender, ylang ylang and frankinscence. I sold it to many people and got great feedback from everyone I talked to after. I put it on my pillow so I can smell it all night.
Another solution is of course a short-term prescription. You really need your sleep to function properly.
Crappy weekend. No real exciting GAL plans. Like many others, all of my friends are married so weekends are hit or miss sometimes.. Went for an extra walk today, so got in over 5 miles. Tried on some old clothes and I am only about 10lbs from fitting in clothes I have not been able to wear in about 10 years. That made me feel slightly better, but overall feeling lonely and sad today. Seem to be missing H lately (the pre BD one). Maybe because it's fall and it was always our favorite time of year. Also, anniversary is just aound the corner in 10 days. Supposed to be working in financial discloser, but don't want to, so procrastinating. Yuck.
Keep at it. My friends were almost all married, but they've slowly introduced me to others who are becoming new friends and the opportunities are expanding. I also felt like some of my hope for new friends through some of my GAL activities was just wishful thinking, but lately that has changed. May take longer than you think, but like other aspects of DBing, patience and persistence pay off.
Keep at it. My friends were almost all married, but they've slowly introduced me to others who are becoming new friends and the opportunities are expanding. I also felt like some of my hope for new friends through some of my GAL activities was just wishful thinking, but lately that has changed. May take longer than you think, but like other aspects of DBing, patience and persistence pay off.
In my agreement with W, I have the kids weekend nights, so I find myself at home with not much to do often when my friends are busy.
But, you CAN make new friends through GAL activities. I just checked and in my FB messenger, 7 of my 8 most recent discussions are with friends I've made since BD. Sometimes, I look around and can't recognize my life anymore, for better or worse.
Chin up, BT.
I've had a similar week where I had too much time on my hands and not much motivation to tackle projects. I need to be more deliberate about making plans. I also want to try a couple of Meet Up groups when I feel a little bit less emotional about my situation. I'm somewhat of an introvert so meeting new people is hard for me but I'm determined to do it. Hang in there!
BT, you have been doing a lot of deep reflective work lately, and while that's all to the good, it can also trigger emotional states, so go easy on yourself. The weight loss is awesome! Do you have a reward for yourself if you lose those ten? If I lose 20 more I'm getting myself a new dining room table.
Hugs
E
BT, you have been doing a lot of deep reflective work lately, and while that's all to the good, it can also trigger emotional states, so go easy on yourself. The weight loss is awesome! Do you have a reward for yourself if you lose those ten? If I lose 20 more I'm getting myself a new dining room table.
Hugs
E
Yes, I think your right. Reading R books just makes me think how solvable our issues are and makes me want to keep trying to fight. I keep kicking myself for not picking up a book years ago, but then I think given how little character my H is showing now, whose to say it would have made a difference. H likely would have still gone through whatever this is, so we might have ended up here regardless. It's his journey.
Have not really thought about a reward for the 10lbs. Need to think about it!
Also, Mercury is in retrograde...
Not sure what that means, Painter. Just looked it up and it seems that H's A started when Mercury was in retrograde for his sign. That R must be doomed for sure!
Hey BT, just checking in.
I hope you have a good week after a 'crappy' weekend.
Hey Z, As, Azz, Becky, E and Painter,
Thanks for helping me keep my spirits up. Today is better, though I am still feeling extra emotional. Tears have just been flowing more than they have in a while.
Ok, so I am having thoughts of withdrawing D petition. I am not sure if that is the right thing to do. My H still wants D. I never did and it kills me that I let him push me into a corner to feel I had to file. This is why you should not file when you are angry and over emotional.
My L said I would have to get H to agree to joint withdrawal order. Not sure why I can't just do it if I am the one who filed first. I am sure that H would just turn around and file.
Am I crazy?! Please help me think this through! The more reading and learning I do, the more this whole situation is so unnecessary. If my H truly woke up and did decided he did not want D he would say so and stop it, right? I feel as though I let my self fall into the abyss of acceptance and am trying to crawl back out in a panic.
It's official. I have lost my mind.
BT -
Just like you maybe shouldnt have filed while you were emotional, you shouldnt try to withdraw it while youre emotional.
As youve said, theres a ton of time until it goes through. Just let it sit for now. You can always withdraw it later.
You haven't lost your mind. I sent my H a proposal settlement because I wad mad, then wished I hadn't. But I can't take it back. True to form he has not responded. It is such a roller coaster. Hang in there.
Just thought I would share a couple more success since BD that I have not mentioned yet:
1) I have broke my addiction to TV. This was my pain numbing agent that I used to escape. Before BD, I probably would watch TV between 3-5 hours a day. I had turned into a vegatable. Now I maybe watch 2-5 hours a week max. I was more interested in crap TV than my H.
2) I have been doing a much better job maintaining the house, including yard work. Not that is was really bad before, but I would get a bit lazy sometimes.
Looking forward to my first full board meeting tomorrow. Still not working on financial stuff. There is always tomorrow.
Hang in there, BT. Proud of you for the successes you've had...that's wonderful!
Way to go.
Am I crazy?! Please help me think this through! The more reading and learning I do, the more this whole situation is so unnecessary. If my H truly woke up and did decided he did not want D he would say so and stop it, right? I feel as though I let my self fall into the abyss of acceptance and am trying to crawl back out in a panic.
It's official. I have lost my mind.
I just wanted to say I feel the same way. I also filed, because he told me unequivocally the marriage was over, and I was tired of waiting for him to do it. But I do feel our marriage could have been repaired, and this whole thing was unnecessary.
Filing did help me stop begging for a reconciliation, so it gave me some strength in a way. Since he wanted to speak about ending our marriage in absolute terms, I have responded in kind. I can't be married to a man that speaks about our marriage that way.
Went into L office to sign a doc. My C with H came up. L said you know that studies show that it does work, right? I explained to him that there are new methods that show 70-75%. He basically said they must be lying. I don't think he needed to give me his viewpoints.
Sorry you are going through a rough time... but I think you would have these thoughts regardless? I can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't second-guess my decision at *some point* - but you filed for a reason, right? Can you review those reasons?
Maybe I'm a little dense, but I'm not getting what the convo with the L was about...
Yes, I need to review those reasons. I think I am just having anxiety attacks over making the right decision. Does not really matter if it is what H wants.
I had asked my L about what happens in the event I want to stop D. I explained that H and I were attending counseling. I think he thought it was marriage therapy. Anyway, he felt the need to tell me it does not work.
Yes, he made the decision, and he's sticking to it. You're just protecting yourself financially and legally, which you need to.
As for your L - he's right, though... Except if you have a DB-counselor...
So, seems there is no point in second discernment session. H told counselor that he is too hurt by my actions to kick him out of house and file for D. Said he was hurt seeing more D paperwork this week. I just don't undestand. H told her he had hoped to see if could live at home and see if we could work stuff out.
While having A. In our home. Someone please make me understand or make sense of this. I am feeling like I made mistake by filing and setting boundary, but I know I can't think that way.
Honestly BT, It looks like he is playing a victim here...you were the one to file.
Sure he was cheating on you, disrespecting you and your marriage...but you were the one who wouldn't work on your marriage and packed up his $hit and pit it in the garage like a hideous monster. Couldn't find the sarcasm font
You did what you thought you had to. It is easy to second guess later. It was emotionally charged. I don't judge on eight or wrong cause God only knows I've made more mistakes than I would like to admit.