My first thread was titled "Avidya" which is a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is ignorance, delusion, unlearned and unwise. Avidya was a good word to describe where I was when I started my journey down the DB path.
The name I have chosen to title this thread is "Vidya" which is also a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is correct knowledge or clarity. Vidya is a good word to describe where I would like to be when I finish this thread.
I am very happy with my progress. In the time it took to finish Avidya I have stopped crying, begging and pleading. It may not seem like a great journey but it was a big step for me. Thank you all for your compassion and loving kindness.
Here is a link to Avidya:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2597117&page=1
Hi Mutatio
Finally did a catch up on your thread. OK, you had some demons in your past, but that's the past, it's time for new, improved version 2.0.
You seem to be doing well. Once you get past the really emotional phase, you do feel your confidence coming back, and it makes it a bit easier. Just watch out for WAS traps and rope pulls and don't get dragged in to any arguments. Stock up on STFU smoothies and learn to go for long walks when the urge gets you to fight back. That really works for me.
There have been no arguments with my wife in the last 7 years. I changed completely when my wife had her EA/PA. At this time she barely talks to me. In the past I tried to fill the void of silence with chatter. Now, not so much.
We are in separate journeys in the same house. In time it will be clear if we are to remain together. All I can do is put one foot in front of the other and step into the here and now.
There have been no arguments with my wife in the last 7 years.
One of the biggest things that Ive learned since Ive been here is that peace is not the same thing as progress.
I believe that I am living that lesson. In 2008 after the EA/PA I made those wholesale changes to my behavior. It was not enough. I should have gone to IC, doing that now. Wife should have gone to IC also, she is going now.
From my current vantage point it seems to me that sweeping the marital problems under the rug and having a peaceful home is like ignoring a potentially life threatening disease diagnosis.
For whatever reason, your post triggered a memory of a homework problem I had in a college physics class many many years ago that asked me whether a body of water froze top down or bottom up and why.
The WAS process feels like a lake freezing bottom up. Looking at it, you cant see any difference until it's essentially too late. Then, at BD, the entire body of water is a complete block of ice. Unthawing that sucker is going to take a looooooong time - its not just a thin veneer of slush on the surface - the entire [censored] thing is solid ice.
Hi Mutatio
I have been reading your sitch...I too am am new to the boards..
I have no advice to give..just wanted to reach out as some of your posts resonated so hard..I cried..our time frames are more or less similar except my wife moved out 4/15..
2 in particular hit home, my love for my W isn't contingent....I love her.
And I hurt knowing I've hurt her...
I too was not the "ideal" husband..due to issue of my own..emotional distancing was my go to...
You are not alone...thank you for sharing...
Stay strong my friend
Thanks for the visualization Azzork, it helps to realize I working on glacial time.
SPD72, thank you for posting and your support. I see we both had BD on New Years Day. My wife said if it wasn't for the kids and the financial entanglements she would be long gone. So she is here physically but that's about it. I will try to check out your thread tonight.
Love the title of your threads Mutatio.
Love the block of ice analogy Azzork.
Learning from you both.
I am still unsure what triggered the change between 2 and 3.
What mechanism exactly woke you into the change?
What was the mechanism?
It seems swift and radical and I would like to understand it and what exactly you did to manage that change or did you just let it happen?
It is almost like a tipping point.
V
Hi Vanilla, thank you for helping me on my journey. I could use your sage advice. Here's a little more backstory on chapters 2 & 3.
The last two years of chapter 2 are important. At the beginning of the last two years I found a new job and left my FIL's business. The business was doing poorly, the hours (nights) were really rough and I hated the job. My wife and I discussed it and we agreed to make the change. After working the new job my wife wanted me to take a more active roll in my children's lives. I behaved better but not good enough in hindsight. I worked around the house instead of taking the kids to the pool. I drank beer and worked in the garage. The truth is I asked the kids if they wanted to go to the pool and they didn't want to go. I now realize that between my bad behavior and not doing things with them there was not a deep relationship with them.
My wife told me later that after changing jobs she really hoped that I would change. In her eyes I did not. One year before the EA/PA I began to sense her pulling away. Reduced emotional and physical intimacy. The summer vacation before the beginning of the EA we had no sex. That fall I sensed her pulling away more and more. When I would come into the room she would immediately close her laptop or turn it in a way so I could not see what she was doing.
These behaviors worried me, I felt something was wrong. I knew that I my drinking was a problem. I wanted to be a better man for my wife and my family. Sensing my wife pulling away and and knowing my selfish behaviors were the cause was the mechanism. I had a moment of clarity and stopped drinking. One month later the EA/PA came to light.
I was shaken to my core. I truly believed I caused my wife's EA/PA with the years of bad behavior. I swore off the booze, meanness and bullying. I blamed these behaviors for all the problems we were having. It was easy to drop those habits by blaming them for my wife's actions.
I now realize that I did not do enough to repair the marriage. I will regret this mistake till the day I die. I love my wife and always will. The sad thing is that may not be enough.
Thanks for the visualization Azzork, it helps to realize I working on glacial time.
SPD72, thank you for posting and your support. I see we both had BD on New Years Day. My wife said if it wasn't for the kids and the financial entanglements she would be long gone. So she is here physically but that's about it. I will try to check out your thread tonight.
I know that is hard to hear, but likely you will get to the point where you feel it is the kids that is keeping you hanging in there too. The other thing to realize is that the pressures of being parents and the things we screw up in our Ms because we don't adjust well to being parents, or then parents of multiple kids, contributes to the breakdown of the M. So in a certain way the kids (not them per se, but the reality of having kids) contributes to her wanting to be long gone, as well as keeps her tied when she feels this way. Almost all Ms have their times when things get rocky and the feelings change. The ones that survive and thrive go through something like this too, and yet they survive and thrive lovingly.
Love is never enough. It takes a whole lot of other skills and learning and the cooperation of the partner.
You did not cause your W's actions. Her actions were certainly in large part a reaction to your behavior, but don't own more of the responsibility than you deserve. You can't force someone into an A. She had to chose to go there. Yes, your behavior hurt her. But, she neither of you was skillful enough to work through those problems.
And, while it may be over, you just don't know. You likely won't for a while yet. So, don't paint yourself into that corner either.
Thank you asitis for sharing your wisdom. I am working to improve those qualities and skills into my life experience. I am doing this for me. It is important to me to evolve and be a better father and potential partner.
Last week I finally come to the realization that I do not own her affair. She own's it all. I have my baggage but not that, that's her's to carry. The day I realized that was a good day.
I agree it's far from over. I have at least a year before she may pull the trigger (figure of speech). A lot can happen in a year. This morning she was very chatty. I know that means nothing but after days of silence, it was nice to hear her voice and see her smile as she spoke. God knows I truly love this woman.
I know none of this matters. This is all about me and I must not stray far from the path.
I am doing well with my interactions with my wife. It seems she is not so down when I am around. I do not dwell in her presence, I communicate and move on.
This is as good as it gets for now and because of that, I get sad thinking about where I am in my life. I feel like a failure. How could I have done this to the women I profess to love. Why would I treat my children poorly..... sigh
OK, so when the tipping point happened between two and three, the day you ' realised' the drinking had to stop, exactly what happened?
Was it flash, instantly? Did it take a couple of days? Was it IC? A row with WW? A quiet moment? The middle of the day?
What precisely at that point flipped the switch?
How did it feel? Were you angry, sad, accepting? Did you go to AA?
What did that change feel like for you?
How did WW react? It was two weeks and you discovered EA, what happened in those two weeks between pivot point and EA discovery?
V
Good morning Vanilla. Here is the chain of events I believe you are looking for. To set the stage the time period is the fall of 2008. I am beginning my third year at my new job. At this point I have been behaving better (by old me standards) but I still drink a case of beer each weekend. My wife has been on a geek discussion forum for about a year where she has many friends, one a male, living 25 miles away. During the summer of 2008 she seems a little more distant. She enjoys her online life and I am happy it gives her joy. I am a little jealous of the time she spends online but I don't discuss it because of my guilt from behavior in the past.
During September and October my wife is spending more and more time on laptop. She is in the room with me and the kids and is somewhat involved with us but she always has the laptop. In hindsight the online EA has already began. They, my wife and the male from 25 miles away have never met in person. Halloween 2008 is the day that the the EA becomes sexual. What they will do to each other, bad mouth their spouses, yada yada yada. It consumes more of my wife's time. She is secretive with the laptop and always has it close by.
In early November I begin to see my wife has really changed, more distant the ever. I realize something is really wrong but don't know what. I've be thinking for the last half of year that I should stop drinking because it only leads to problems between my wife and kids. Now with her pulling away I really consider it to be affecting my relationship. Also during this time I start to wonder if my wife is cheating, its just a hunch.
Now for the moment of truth, the tipping point, the flip of the switch, Thanksgiving 2008. I had a few beers at my wife's cousin house Thanksgiving day. It was a nice holiday for one and all and in the evening we are heading home. My daughters are in the backseat fighting nonstop about their territorial space and it gets ugly. My wife is dealing with it while I drive but is not succeeding at making it stop. I grow impatient and chime in. I say to my eldest daughter to stop being like bin laden. My wife becomes very angry with me and rips me a new orifice. She says she can't take it anymore and she is done. She repeats this to her self a few times. That night I decide to stop drinking although I do not tell my wife. Friday I do not drink. Saturday we have plans to see a band we like with a large group of friends we know. We all meet early for dinner and drinks. I decide to drink with my friends. I get pretty drunk. We all leave and walk over to the show, its a small theater venue. When the music begins my wife says she is going to stand down in front of the stage. I hang back because its to crowded. I am listening to the band in my drunken stupor and watch my wife talking with some guy (not Mr EA). It goes on for a couple songs and I realize I am losing her, that I have driven her away with my bad behavior and drinking. I get really sad at the state of my marriage and sit down for a while thinking about the situation and I decide to quit drinking. Eventually I go down and hangout with my wife. Sunday morning I tell my wife I'm going to stop drinking. I have not had a drink since that night almost 7 years ago.
On December 10th 2008, a rainy Wednesday, Mr. EA decides to drive to my wife's workplace. She meets him in the parking lot of her building and they sit in her car for over an hour. They talk, hold hands, kiss and grope. I was at work but for some reason I just knew something was wrong. They decide to meet again after the holidays and "do it". On December 21st, we get a phone call at 5 am from Mr. EA's wife. She tell's my wife its over and to back off. Later that day my wife comes clean and tells me it all.
Questions the paragraphs above did not answer-
Did you go to AA? No I don't need it. I never want to drink again. Every difficulty with my wife reminds me of that fact.
What did that change feel like for you? I was glad to removing such a terrible habit from my life, marriage and children.
How did WW react? My wife was glad that I chose to quit drinking. I suspect she had a wait and see attitude about my resolve because it part of my every weekend activities.
It was two weeks and you discovered EA, what happened in those two weeks between pivot point and EA discovery? Between the Sunday I quit drinking and my wife beginning the PA nothing unusual happened. I was completely sober and tried to be a nice, less selfish person.
I hope this answers the questions you have Vanilla. I would be happy to answer any more that may arise. I would love to hear your take on my situation. Be well
One more thing Vanilla, Drinking was only one of my bad habits. I have difficulty being assertive. When I asked my children to do something and they did not do it, I would eventual start yelling because I managed the situation poorly. I was selfish, wanting things my way and bullying to win.
I am ashamed of the man I was then. I am working hard to become the inverse of that foolish misguided wretch of a man.
Mutatio, I think it takes a lot of courage to face up to your own faults and admit them and work on them. That said, of course yelling at children is not a good thing, BUT, kids fighting and bickering is extremely annoying and very trying for most of us. I think you are really being very hard on yourself. You recognized your faults and weaknesses and you are improving on them. That is a sign of a strong and good man. I think you should be proud of yourself and hold your head high.
Mutatio
I am getting a clearer understanding, thank you.
I have some initial thoughts but am going to research a couple of things. firstly I don't think you had developed into a full rubicon alcoholic although if you hadnt stopped when you did, you would have. There is still a medication effect using alcohol I sense that. It is potentially your weakness so it's fantastic that you gave up.
Having said that, the underlying weakness wasnt addressed and I sense is still there. There are some submission and pleasing issues to address, something fundamentally 'stuck' which I believe needs 'unsticking',
Many many congratulations and this shows you have a very strong self belief system to tackle a major issue like alcohol without twelve steps. The difficulty is that you bypassed a twelve step process. It's not self will or self control as the underlying beliefs changed. This is going to be very important to tap into and is a facility very few people possess. It can be very powerful.
I have to think.
V
Hi Vanilla, I have one more thing to add. I realized this while going to IC earlier this year. It maybe a piece of my puzzle you find of value.
First, after the BD early this year, I struggled with all of the emotion. I was prescribed med's for depression. I felt depressed so I agreed to take them. I will be off them by the end of September, weaning off now. Anyway back to the point.
While I was working the job I hated, my drinking changed from a social drinker to one who drank alone. I never drove under the influence, never. It also became a more regular weekend activity. Between the job and my marriage difficulties I was suffering from depression. I think I was self medicating the depression with alcohol.
An interesting twist is what happened when I quit drinking. For the last sober seven years I slowly became codependent with my wife. I thought it was because of the scare of almost losing her. Maybe it was and maybe my unresolved depression was manifesting itself differently.
What do you think Vanilla? Or any other wise intelligent soul out there?
I think V is on to something here. There are usually underlying issues that cause that kind of self-medication. Technically, many of us our alcoholics by the standards often thrown about. Most are just self-medicating. It can get out of hand from there.
Something to look at is how you might have substituted other behaviors for the self-medication of the alcohol when you gave it up? Did you change how you treated your W? Your kids? Yourself? 12 Step programs aren't the only way, but they do force you to confront the issues that underlay a lot of self-medicating and addictive behaviors. Fail to face those, and we usually transfer the dysfunction, distraction, and dulling to other coping strategies that aren't good for us or our Rs.
Not saying this is what you did. Just something to look at with an eye to not blaming yourself for doing so if you find something. It is a learning experience. It is part of the courage you have already obviously shown for standing up and trying to take responsibility for yourself. It is an extension of the excellent job you have done all along this rocky road.
Thank you asitis. My behaviors did change post alcohol. I am much more easy going. I put my families desires in front of mine. I try to be more selfless. I apologize a lot, even when its clearly not necessary. I am lacking confidence.
I think this is all rooted in the fact I nearly did and still may lose everything due to my selfishness, stupidity and ego.
I am a desperate man trying to avoid going to the gallows
Take the responsibility for your part, not the responsibility for everything. You have apologized. You have tried to make amends. You have worked on yourself. At some point you have to try to forgive yourself. It was not you who did this. I'm not saying that you are blameless. But we are all all burdened with a lot of baggage from our family of origin, our culture, and those who played larger roles in our lives. We then get into an R with someone with their own baggage from their past. Core beliefs, reflexive habits, poor R skills, societal norms about what romance and love are. There are a lot of forces at play bringing us to the point we are. We woke up from that. Recognizing that it is not all our fault & forgiving ourselves allows us to stand up and work to ensure that we are better from here on out. That is all we can hope for. That is enough. That is courageous. That is not the typical response.
This was where I was headed but you and as seem to have preempted my thoughts.
I think that you skipped some important evaluative steps when giving up the alcohol which is why the codependency emerged. You see AA isn't just to give up alcohol, twelve steps is a process of healing, to address the underlying. Giving up alcohol for good is the purpose but replacing one addiction with another is counter productive. The work still has to be done to heal. You could consider a codependency 12 step group.
I have more thinking to do because the question is how do we resolve this so that a new compulsion doesn't emerge.? Nail it for good this time and heal.
My common sense is telling me that the answer lies further back than pivot point and I would like you to find the origin of this so you can heal, then there is real work to do in real life.
I note that you worked for FIL and put everyone's interests above your own, antisocial hours etc, including putting your own hopes and dreams on hold. That is huge to put your own ambitions and satisfaction to one side, permanently! It's no wonder you were unhappy.
Was that always your pattern? To sacrifice yourself for others?
When did that type of pleasing start? Was it before you met WW?
V
photoka, thank you for the support you posted earlier in this thread. I never got to thank you. Your words make me feel good. I struggle to get past the things I have done, with it still haunting my wife.
asitis, your wisdom is incredible, you have given me perfect advice. Thanks
Vanilla, I'll answer later. We are away on a long weekend so only the phone is available. Going for a swim, ttyl
Mutatio,
I would rather you thought and posted in your own time. marinaded rather than posted back on your iPhone.
In a few days with the real you is best. I will read your post.
Take your time. In actual fact I really would prefer it.
Relax, chill enjoy your break.
Breathe......
V
Hey mutatio. Haven't seen you post here in a bit. Just checking in. I hope you are doing a little better.
Hello Solo15 and the rest of my friends. I am back from a journey to the sunshine state.
Things here are the same, not better, not worse. So I view that as a "half full" situation.
I am trying not to let the disappointments get me down. Whats the point, I cannot affect change directly. Only through indirect change (my choices for my life) can I hope to improve my marriage.
I am thinking about my response to your last questions Vanilla. I am not sure I can answer thoughtfully until after I drive my daughter back to college this weekend. I will miss her. I like our spelunking my mind Vanilla.
A question for you good people. I have discovered thru IC and talking with mental health professionals a fact about my bad behavior during the worst years of my marriage.
I was very unhappy working for my FIL. He was great but I grew to hate the job and performed poorly do to a bad skill set match. I now see I was began suffering from depression during those 16 years. Males suffering from depression may display anger issues. All the behavior issues (anger, drinking, control) fit in this model and time line.
My question: Should I tell my wife of this revelation/information in the hopes that she will reevaluate my behavior and no longer think that behavior is at the core of my being and instead part of a past medical issue.
I would really like to do this in the hope that she would more inclined to reconcile with me. Opinions please.
Not yet. She doesn't want to reconsider right now. Just store that in your back pocket for when you get to the friendship or piecing stage when she can see that with some compassion. There are lots of things that I have thought would help my W see things better. They were always met with the reaction opposite what I had hoped for. Now, I just save them up for when she is ready to listen and give. That may never come, but right now it would only stir up the dust storm I'm trying to let settle.
I know it is tempting to pass on this kind of insight. Really tempting. Right now, you need to let the insight settle in to you and work on yourself in light of this insight. It's not going anywhere and you have time.
Thank you asitis. I knew your suggestion was the correct path.
I was hoping for a short cut, knowing there was none.
The family is driving my daughter back to college today. We will stay in a hotel tonight and come home tomorrow afternoon.
Accepting the silence between us, validating her thoughts and a PMA seem to be my best choices for behavior.
My goal is to make this trip a positive memory while building a new foundation of positive experiences. With enough positive moments, she may reconsider her path/position.
Any other thoughts or suggestions on how to make this event achieve that goal? Things to do or things to avoid.
This hasn't been explored enough. I think this needs to be re contextualised into a story, I am unsure it's depression, it is possibly something else, but I feel it needs more work yet.
V
There's no point in telling her that you WERE depressed.
How about instead, you just simply act not depressed now?
Vanilla and Azzork thank you all for your responses.
Vanilla, I would love to get into this more with you now that summers over.
Azzork, I love your simple, clean and elegant advice.
The changes I am seeing in the MR are due to my detachment. My wife seems a little less depressed around me. Things haven't improved between us but it's not getting worse (so the glass is half full).
I am more accepting of my marital circumstances. From this acceptance I am slowly thinking of me more and her/us less.
This makes the hardest thing I've ever had to experience just a little bit better.
There's no point in telling her that you WERE depressed.
How about instead, you just simply act not depressed now?
AZ,
you rock!
Fist bump...
Thanks for stopping by Vapo.
When I read Azzorks post I thought of the old joke "Doctor it hurts when I do this..."
I have accepted my situation and will not try to dominate the circumstances. "I am a leaf on the wind"
There are many giving you good advice and it's down to you to follow it, so all I am going to say is you are the man to do it.
The journey is long and you will have some wobbles (if you don't, you aren't doing anything) but you are more than up to it, believe in yourself.
Thanks for the support Beagley. It's nice to have people to share with.
I have completed another day in marital purgatory. All the days seem to be the same. Between the cold indifference and the silence I reside.
There is not much to new to report which means the glass is half full. Be well
There's a lot to be learned and accomplished in marital purgatory Mutatio. Every day is a day to prove to yourself that you're a better man. Every day is an opportunity to learn something new about relationships, communication, self esteem, and even the word that's gotten us all here - love.
Keep doing the work you're doing, keep being strong even on the days you don't want to. I echo Beagley, keep believing in yourself.
PP
Thank you PigPen. I struggle with self confidence. It has been said that the DB experience can make one a better person. I believe that I will be but this is a hell of a way to earn your stripes.
You have always been kind to me PigPen, I appreciate that, thanks.
Mutatio when things get ripped away from you, the most important things, you get to rebuild your life however you want to.
This is the worst way to earn your stripes my friend, and you don't have to earn them. But if you want them, you can use this experience as a catalyst to earn them and more. BD happened already right? Nothing you can do about that. Your and my January of this year were equally awful. Nothing we can do right? And time is going to pass too. Nothing we can do about that either. BUT, we can use BD and time to forge ourselves into new men.
You've still got a lot of living to do and kids that look up to you. Take stock of the areas where you want to see improvement in your life and then use the pain of this experience as currency to invest in those improvements.
Every day you hold your integrity high and keep your (censored) together your self esteem can build. It's like drips of water in a large jug, you may not see it at first, but it's happening.
Keep it up Mutatio.
PP
I want so much to sit with my wife, talk, laugh and see her smile at me. Instead I sit in another room, having said less then 5 sentences today. She won't talk to me. She prefers to be left alone. The silent treatment is hard on me.
Obviously I must respect her wishes but this path seems to end with not fixing the marriage.
What am I missing here?
You are missing that every time you try to intrude into that you are reinforcing her association of stress and you, & anger at you not respecting her wish to not have you in her life right now. You need to let that just mellow for a while. If you do, you may just have your chance to have a few pleasant moments, and then after a while longer a few more.
You're the oak try, but you need to bend like the willow in the storm. Different environment requires different approaches. The old approach doesn't work. Let her work through her stuff in peace. I know you want to be with her, but trying will just make it worse and hasten the bad result. Your choice of course. No guarantees, but it is a lot of how patient can you really be?
Let her be, thank G*d M didn't bother me tonight that was really pleasant. Then it will be I really want that to continue, which means driving M out of my life if he intrudes. To months later, I wonder what M is doing? Then maybe, just maybe, I wonder why M doesn't come around any more, maybe I'll see what he is doing.
That's what you are doing to save your M. It is much, much harder than going in there because you really miss her. Much harder. One doesn't seem like doing, the other does, but look at as how much effort it takes rather than how much action you take.
Thanks asitis. I see it now, the last paragraph sealed the deal. Thanks.
I need help, what should I do?
Last night after work and an evening night class I said hi and get a silent wave. This morning, my wife does not respond to "good morning", complains to me about kids leaving dishes in the sink, drinks her coffee not looking or talking and all I get is silence when I leave I say "Have a good day".
The question is should I stop talking also? Answer her questions and that's it? How does silence make this better.
Isn't this quitting? I thought salutations were the right thing to do. What should I do?
Thanks in advance for your help, this is eating at me.
Be polite. What would you do if you said "good morning" to a neighbor & got no response? My W went through a very angry phase, when there was a lot of silence & I just gave her space after learning that she didn't want to talk to me or respond to me. Don't force it.
Just say "good morning" as if you don't expect a response. You're fine either way. That should be your attitude & what you convey. M is doing well w/ or wo/ W, and you aren't needing her response to make you feel good or secure, etc.
If she does want to talk or get something off her shoulders, just listen & validate. If she doesn't want to be polite, that's her problem not yours. You shouldn't do any passive aggressive body language that it gets to you or you think she is being silly or childish. Just say the polite thing in passing as you go on to whatever it is you are doing or whatever is next.
So, stay casually polite while you go about your business, but you need to do in in a way that makes clear that you have no expectations of a response in kind & that's OK. In other words, no pressure on her to do what she doesn't. It respects her wishes wo/ turning you into something you don't want to be: rude like her.
That's what you are doing to save your M. It is much, much harder than going in there because you really miss her. Much harder. One doesn't seem like doing, the other does, but look at as how much effort it takes rather than how much action you take.
It is a choice to do nothing. It is often a very hard and yet very powerful choice.
Oh, and whatever you do, don't ask her what's bothering her or if she needs to talk or tell you something. She's a big girl (despite her behavior to the contrary), and it is her responsibility to tell you when & how she wants to.
I can't tell how many times I got suckered into inquiring solicitously to my regret. Just let her decide if she's ready to tell you what she needs to tell you or keep it to herself.
thank you asitis, thank you azzork.
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Hi Mutatio,
Just passing by, wanted to give you my support. You can do this. As you say to me, continue on the path you are in, it will only make you a much better man.
God Bless
Thanks EM, I appreciate it.
I became sad yesterday evening. I had such a great time in my new evening class, met and talked with people who liked talking to me and get to do this two evenings every week. I was singing in the car on the way home. Then I got home hoping to share the joy and .......silence.
This reaction will not happen again next week because I have no interest in sharing me or my experiences unless asked.
I will endure this moment, after all, it is but a moment and I will be better for it.
It is hard to keep the spirit up sometimes. I read the suffering some of you are living through and its hard not to lost hope.
I am sorry that you suffer
It is hard to keep the spirit up sometimes. I read the suffering some of you are living through and its hard not to lost hope.
I am sorry that you suffer
Yes, theres a lot of pain here. But theres so much positivity as well. And so much growth and learning and understanding.
Once we all can heal enough to be past the pain, think about the things we can do!
So I keep my spirits up as much as possible, and try not to focus on the pain. Its there, but it will go away. Its like Andy Dufresne at the end of Shawshank -
crawling through a pipe of sewage to get to freedom.
So, I find it easy to keep hope alive, not necessarily for my M, but for me. I will keep crawling. I will survive. I will be OK. And you will be too.
I am really getting the urge to ask my wife about our marriage and where we're going.
She moved into the sitting room and said "if I'm in here it means I want to be alone". Well if she isn't in the kitchen or bathroom she is only in the sitting room. It's been two months with minimum interaction.
What should I do? We have not spoken about "us" in almost a month. Shouldn't we be trying something? Help please I'm making myself crazy, what is the smart choice?
What exactly do you want to try? In my opinion, every day you do nothing is a day you e helped your marriage.
I know Azzork, I guess I'm here vent.
I try to be loving. I try to kind. I try to be compassionate. I try to be understanding. I cook all the meals. I maintain and run the house. I work full time. I support the kids however it's needed.
What more do I do? What is wrong with these people? You build a life together, raise a family together and they throw you away like the trash.
This is really starting to piss me off. There is only one person in the whole world I would even consider taking this human excrement from and she is thinking only of herself.
Tantrum over, I have to cook dinner now for the wife and kids. Maybe I'll cut out one of my kidneys and serve that. Ha, like that would be enough.
...I try to be loving. I try to kind. I try to be compassionate. I try to be understanding. I cook all the meals. I maintain and run the house. I work full time. I support the kids however it's needed...
That's one heck of a vent Mutatio, can I ask (at the risk of you being really p1ssed at me), do you do these things because you think she'll notice and change her ways, or do you do them because you sincerely believe it is the right thing and you should have done it all along?
If it's the former, you'll be doing it forever, my friend, as she sees that it's not for real.
If it's the latter then maybe you ought to look at how you are doing the things you are doing, are you relaxed and really into it or potentially about to lose it at any moment, if it's the latter, or there's any hint in your actions or demeanour that it's the latter, she's spotted it and is waiting for you to blow your stack.
Sorry man, not trying to get at you, it just sang out to me as I read your words and made me wonder if you are missing something that could really help.
Hi Beagley, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think I have be struggling with this for a while. It's the silent treatment, I push down the need to talk to respect her wishes and after a month there is no more room to push it down. Funny thing is now I feel a lot better.
To answer your question, I choose to do this work around the house I like doing it. I have learned to cook and I like it. I have always maintained the house, it's in my skill set. I actively try to be there for my kids and do whats needed (today 2 to the orthodontist) because I was not there when they were younger because of work and bad habits. Being with them brings me joy.
My demeanor is good. If I give off a hint of anything it's fear and nervousness. I am not happy about that but I feel like the gallows are being built in my front yard.
Your questions were good. I don't feel your trying to get at me. You are helping me find my way through difficult situation. Thank you Beagley for your kindness and compassion.
Upon reflection I think that in the past I would go to her and make things go from bad to worse. Now I can come here, and share with my friends. Thank you one and all.
What should I do? We have not spoken about "us" in almost a month. Shouldn't we be trying something? Help please I'm making myself crazy, what is the smart choice?
That is good. I'd keep that up. It is going to take more than a month to get any kind of change.
Think of it this way. Your W already associates you w/ pain to a level that interferes w/ normal friendly interaction. Why would you want to bring up your R in that situation and further cement the association? And, all you're going to get is a defensive, back-off reaction. It wont tell you anything more than you already know now will it? Just honor her need for space. That's showing her you respect her to handle her issues and decide what she wants and needs. That's your best bet.
My advice (that sometimes I don't apply to my own sitch) is that if you feel a strong pull to take some action, the best thing you can do is not take that action. Just focus on the feelings and why you feel that compulsion. It's an opportunity to get to know something about your core beliefs and habitual reflexes. The urge will pass, and it will pass faster if you lean into understanding why you are feeling that urge.
I listened to a talk at my meditation center similar to your suggestion. It appealed to me then and now, as a way to manage compulsions. I forgot to try it but I will try it next time I feel an strong urge to do something, anything.
I am proud that i have not had a relationship talk with her for a month. I would have been disappointed if I had spoke with her about it today. You and Azzork were right.
The funny thing is I knew it too. I became frantic, for what reason I not sure. Posting made me feel better. Next time this happens I will meditate and post before I interact with my wife. Thanks to you kind people my wife does not even know I had a melt down today.
Mutatio, I often notice that if I post before reacting to my H I end up choosing a very different course of action, usually that of no action at all. Sometimes I even write up a post and delete it because I realize I am very repetitive in my postings and don't want to "bother" you all. You are doing well, we all get frantic, that is normal. This is the place to let it all out!
I've done this any number of times too. If I don't talk myself out of it, one of you find people smacks me upside the head w/ a 2x4. Either way, mission accomplished.
Thanks for the support, photoka. I can't speak for our friends but your posts are never a bother to me. I really enjoy getting the perspective of a female LBS. Your opinions matter to me.
Hi Beagley, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think I have be struggling with this for a while. It's the silent treatment, I push down the need to talk to respect her wishes and after a month there is no more room to push it down. Funny thing is now I feel a lot better.
To answer your question, I choose to do this work around the house I like doing it. I have learned to cook and I like it. I have always maintained the house, it's in my skill set. I actively try to be there for my kids and do whats needed (today 2 to the orthodontist) because I was not there when they were younger because of work and bad habits. Being with them brings me joy.
My demeanor is good. If I give off a hint of anything it's fear and nervousness. I am not happy about that but I feel like the gallows are being built in my front yard.
Your questions were good. I don't feel your trying to get at me. You are helping me find my way through difficult situation. Thank you Beagley for your kindness and compassion.
Upon reflection I think that in the past I would go to her and make things go from bad to worse. Now I can come here, and share with my friends. Thank you one and all.
Phew, glad you took it in the way it was intended and you do seem to have a solid view of where you are. Maybe it is the fear and nervousness that she is mis-reading but it is understandable that you find it hard to keep this in check.
Removing the idea in your head of "the gallows" may well help as its only a thought, not reality. You do not know exactly what is going to happen, try to keep this in mind and make it your new focus.
Remember the strangest things happen at the strangest of times like a BD for instance, so anything can and will take place nothing is for certain. Creating a negative self fulfilling prophecy is something to keep away from except in those dark moments that visit all of us from time to time. It's all part of the PMA we all practise, right?
Good words Beagley, thanks.
Sometime I get stuck in the ditch. This place is great for getting help getting back on the path.
I am happy to have you all as friends.
I will now move forward by cleaning out the garage. Be well all.
Be well too mutatio.
Is cleaning out the garage a euphemism for something or what you are actually going to do with your day?
mutatio
Honestly, I never fathomed how my life could be turned into something this horrible. The pain you are going through is agony. Just by being here, all of us are united in a special way. We all love. We are all afraid, broken, and hurting. Bleeding out every day. Trying to hold on in the maelstrom of blows that rain down on us. It strips us down to our bones.
Then there are these other people. Our spouses. They are not like us. They are not here trying. I have a certain hatred in me for all of them. The selfishness. It is said that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. They are indifferent to our pain, to our emotions, our hearts. We are good men and women that have made mistakes, but have in our hearts a fire to love beyond what anyone should endure.
There was a study done about pain. Researchers found that people could endure much more pain if they knew when it would end. We don't get that luxury. I feel like that's one of the things that our souls are crying out for. Why we pursue. We want some little whisper of hope for when it will end. We seek it out in the relationship all the time. To feel whole again.
We are powerful and subtle machines. We perceive so much. It's torture. Pure and simple. I would not wish this on anyone, and certainly not on someone like you who has such a strong and loving heart. Someone who works hard to care for his family, in all the small things that no one even notices. You will be rewarded for it all one day. That I know.
My IC always tells me that I can't heal. That all I can do is survive. Until there is closure, until there is an end, for good or ill, I just have to survive. So go easy on yourself. Love your self. And I do really recommend that book, "No more Mr. Nice Guy". Changed a bunch of things in me, and I think you would get something out of it. It's on kindle if you have a smart phone.
My heart is with you brother. May you find peace and happiness today, even in something small.
Solo15, that's very deep and dark. You seem very eloquent and self aware so will understand when you hear something along the lines of, how you think you become.
I am not saying you are wrong in how you see things, it's simply that you perception is a little off at the moment which suggests that you are being influenced by your wife's actions and that you don't have a clear picture of what you want to achieve and the steps involved in making that happen.
I will pop over to your thread now and hope that we can share more dialogue there about our respective sitch's as there does seem to be quite a lot in common in that what you are saying mirrors some of my thoughts not that long ago.
Solo, I too sense your pain, I will post on your thread after I run my afternoon errands, hang in there and remember they may kill us but they won't eat us.
Beagley, It really was my garage, when I'm referring to me I say attic.
Beagley Solo15 could use some of your wisdom. You are a kind soul.
Good morning fine people. We have another day, another opportunity to affect positive change in the lives of ourselves, our family and the world at large.
I start a new meditation class today. I am excited by the possibilities. Then I will do the weekly food shopping for the family by myself. My wife may think I am doing it to be nice. I am not. I am doing it because I like food shopping, there is an element of hope and creativity in making a meal. I am not a good cook yet, although no one has died from my cooking. I really don't care if she gets the wrong idea about me doing the shopping.
I guess that's the point of this post. This may be a new level for me. I am starting to not concern myself what she thinks about, what I choose to do. I do not do anything to negatively affect my marriage or my children. I am alone on this journey. I want to share my life with her but this is my journey and I will appropriately enjoy it. I feel hopeful about myself and have faith that my life will be authentic.
I will eat life, life will not eat me.
I feel more free then I have in months. No matter what happens with my marriage I will retain this new found freedom.
Onward and upwards.
mutatio
That is fantastic! Sounds like you really are moving through it and into a bit of a better place.
I'm sorry that my post came across as so dark. I think what was on my heart was just that I don't know you at all, you are just some text on a screen, but I care about you and can see the kind of man that you are, and I'm angry that someone would treat you that way. Its hard to watch someone you care about being abused.
Sounds like you are doing well in your GAL activities and are maintaining a PMA. Keep it up!
Solo, I am not being abused, I am reaping what I have sown. I'll post on your thread why.
Thank you for the support. It is kind of you to care. This is a good community.
In guess that's the point of this post. This may be a new level for me. I am starting to not concern myself what she thinks about, what I choose to do. I do not do anything to negatively affect my marriage or my children. I am alone on this journey. I want to share my life with her but this is my journey and I will appropriately enjoy it. I feel hopeful about myself and have faith that my life will be authentic.
Love this! Finally turning my thoughts in this direction.
Thanks so much.
In guess that's the point of this post. This may be a new level for me. I am starting to not concern myself what she thinks about, what I choose to do. I do not do anything to negatively affect my marriage or my children. I am alone on this journey. I want to share my life with her but this is my journey and I will appropriately enjoy it. I feel hopeful about myself and have faith that my life will be authentic.
Love this! Finally turning my thoughts in this direction.
Thanks so much.
Likewise, this is awesome stuff, you've turned a big corner with such style.
Thanks for the support JudyL and Beagley. I wrote that this morning. I like the mornings, it brings with hope and promise of a new day. The day went well but I got tired by the end.
Dinner with family was nice. I was a little disappointed that my wife would not look at me. She had conversations with my 2 kids, looking at them and engaging them in thoughtful dialog. With me, she only answers direct questions she can't ignore. If I say something, anything, she will not comment. That hurts, but if that isn't bad enough she will not look at me, ever. I have not had a millisecond of eye contact in two months.
So it seems that the farther you get from BD the easier it gets to live day by day but there still is a cyclical nature to the pleasure and pain in one's evolution.
I want to wish a Happy New Year to all our Jewish brothers and sisters out there.
May the new year bring you good health and happiness.
Peace and Love for all
Sound like you are doing very well. There is something liberating in all of this. I know I was not fully alive in my M. Since BD, I've slowly rebuilt my life & am very happy to discover all the new things I like to do that were drudgery before, enjoying being alive socially, and just building a life. You start to see possibilities and a future that looks wonderful to you. It comes at a high price, for sure. You keep the door open to letting the W back in if she decides to re-join you and do the hard work it will take to patch together the M. But I have come to think that ultimately, most LBSs outpace our WAS in personal growth and happiness. We are forced to face our demons and do something about our own lives, while many of them are stuck in just trying to jettison us.
What's the new meditation class focusing on?
Hi Mutatio
Passing by to give you my support. You sound to be in a better place right now. Very happy to hear that. Keep it going my friend.
Not much to report, same old same old.
I saw my IC yesterday. Giving my wife the space she wants right now is the "professional opinion". I wish we had thought of that.
I am a little sad this morning. I still have hope and the desire to live happily ever after with my wife. I just feel her becoming drifting farther and farther away.
I am aware that it isn't over till it's over. It just feels that I have been disconnected from her for so long that this is the new normal and there will no motivation by her to want to reconnect. Sigh.
I will stay the course but I am beginning to feel like Christopher Columbus's crew about 2/3's of the way into the voyage.
It is draining to watch W interact fully and affectionately with others and at same time be very different to you.
You are doing well. Go eat your life!
The melancholy day just won't dissipate. Why does love have to be so sad?
My beautiful wife does not seem to want to do anything with me. The latest blow is watching "Dr. Who", the new season starts soon. I mentioned it to her and she indicated she would watch it alone. So it seems that to sit in a room and and stare at a television is to much interaction.
It appears that she is removing me from her life as much as she can. Her answer to offering to do anything social, big and small, is "I don't know".
Questions:
Should I stop inviting her to do things?
Should our lives run in parallel and never intersect?
How does hope stay alive when there is nothing other then food, water and shelter?
Thank you in advance for answering my questions.
I hope your day is better then mine.
(((Mutatio)))
I am still so new here and flailing about, so I hesitate to comment on anyone else's post. But this morning I took am feeling melancholy and trying to shake it - you're pulling on my heart strings.
You ask "Should I stop inviting her to things?"
Think of this - are you pursuing? Even after she has made it clear she doesn't want to do anything together right now?
If you are still engaging in pursuing behaviors, won't she continue to further distance herself?
The vets have so much more wisdom, but this was what struck me when I read your post.
Stay strong, Mutatio. Continue to work on you. Stop inviting her. Hope for your own happiness and see what follows.
Thanks Lost. It's just one of "those" days.
Would pursuing be any conversation that is not necessary?
Should I just live in parallel?
.... sigh
Should I stop inviting her to do things?
In my opinion, there are different ways of inviting. Take the following:
"What do you think of going to the movies next Saturday?"
-vs-
"We're going to the movies tomorrow. Youre welcome to join us."
The first one is totally pursuing. It puts pressure on her because it sounds like your decision to go is based on her decision. So she has to weigh going vs. letting you down.
The second way, its clear you dont really care if she attends. Youre going to go and have a good time with or without you, and she only has to weigh whether she wants to accompany you.
So, plan things, then ask if she wants to join...occasionally.
^^^^What AZ said^^^^
And no, do not live your life in parallel, you live your life as if she is not coming back and do not give a rat's ass how she is living her life. Easier said than done, I know, but that is the goal you should be striving to achieve...
No unnecessary talks with her. Don't be a dick or anything, but please keep the conversation on strictly necessary topics, but def. no R talk, no pleading, no begging, no pointing out the good stuff and reminiscing the good times. Frankly now would be the time to go dark on her. Make her think hat you had a revelation, but don't overdo it because it will come across as fake.
Again, act as if she is never coming back in the relationship, understand that she has her stuff she has to work trough and god knows you have yours to work trough. Examine your responsibility for the demise of your M, identify the issues, and start working on them. But own only your $hit, your W also has her share to carry, do not take over her load.
Grow Mutatio 2.0, grow a pair, become the best Mutatio you can be, be confident, confidence is sexy, dress nice, smell nice, but do it for you, trust me, she will notice. But pay no attention to her and do not go looking over your shoulder if she notices, she will.
Stay strong buddy...
... There is something liberating in all of this. I know I was not fully alive in my M. Since BD, I've slowly rebuilt my life & am very happy to discover all the new things I like to do that were drudgery before, enjoying being alive socially, and just building a life. You start to see possibilities and a future that looks wonderful to you. It comes at a high price, for sure. You keep the door open to letting the W back in if she decides to re-join you and do the hard work it will take to patch together the M. But I have come to think that ultimately, most LBSs outpace our WAS in personal growth and happiness. We are forced to face our demons and do something about our own lives, while many of them are stuck in just trying to jettison us.
This speaks to me! I keep vowing that I will not go through all this for nothing. Changes needed to be made, and I'm making them. I told H early on I was actually grateful to have been woken up. I haven't been enjoying life for a while. I'm going to take this opportunity to figure out ME.
Mutatio, just want to let you know I was checking in on you.
I'm sorry it all seems so sad.
You are aware this is new to me....but lately, I've just been imagining my life without H. What I want to do, where I want to go. I'm not closing any doors - he can always catch up. But, I find myself getting excited about doing new things, making new friends....it really takes the pressure off, for me. I want to be HAPPY...really, truly happy. I kept waiting for "us" to be happy, and it always fell short.
Do some daydreaming....I think it might be helpful. You already know you can make friends.
Whew, I am glad to be done with the day. I struggled all morning with my emotions.
My wife now spends all her spare time in her room and it's clear to me that she is avoiding me.
This hurts because the marriage keeps going in the wrong direction. I am not upset with daily events, there just seems to be no bottom to this fall.
Judy your kindness and concern made me smile on a sad day.
Vapo your directness is the right tonic for today's melancholy.
Azzork my wise friend with the perfect example, thanks.
Lost your compassion for me feels good.
I know what I have to do,
I will do what I have to do,
I accept what I have to do.
When I dwell in the past to much or worry about what may happen in the future I try to play this video.
It is by Sam Harris and it is called "It Is Always Now".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D48XmzDAHIcIf you give it a chance, you might find it helpful.
It's only 5 minutes of "Now"
That's a really powerful video mutatio, thank you for sharing the link.
You are in a very difficult place and I really feel for you.
You know already know what you need to do and all you have to do is implement what you've learnt, which simple, but hard to do right?
You are watching your wife and allowing her to effect you, so detach.
You are watching your wife and she knows it, so you are pushing her, so GAL and become distracted by other things that are mutatio oriented.
Ask yourself, am I hanging on hoping she will change? You know this won't happen on its own.
The number one thing in life is to get your needs fulfilled, no one is in this world to give them to you, you have to go and get them. I am most of the way through the book "no more Mr nice guy" and it's having a profound effect on me. I am now a recovering Mr nice guy and will never go back to what I was as frankly he wasn't very nice but thought he was.
There appear to be a large number of Mr nice guys on this BB and they are all suffering and unhappy. It's our fault, society and upbringing has influenced them to be that way and a few simple changes can make a huge impact. None of what I've read to date contradicts the DB process, it's a valuable add-on.
Maybe it's time for you to consider reading the book or similar materials? Maybe it's the distraction you need? I am not saying you are a Mr nice guy, that's up to you to decide. The distraction of whether you are or not might be just what you need?
Thank you Beagley for the sage advice and the book suggestion.
I am beginning to understand that waiting for her is also a form of pursuit.
I must live in the present moment as if there's no future with her.
In a future moment if something develops i will modify my behavior accordingly.
So yesterday was not a setback, it was learning about waiting and pursuit.
Yes, I think there is an important difference between 'waiting' and 'moving forward, but leaving the door open a tiny bit.' With the former, there is an 'on hold' element, but with the latter, the 'on hold' feel has gone and your perspective is all forward.
However, if something significant changes, you can pause and consider the new circumstances. You can remain open to a possible reconciliation, depending on what presents at that time. You are not completely closed to it. But you are certainly not 'on hold.'
Now, none of the above need make that much difference to how we interact with the WAS. However, I think much of where we are truly at does get subtly conveyed to them. I say 'truly at' because I think if we pretend to be somewhere we're not, that gets conveyed too.
Sounds like you are doing well Mutatio. In a way, there are no setbacks, only opportunities. We only need ask ourselves what opportunity is presented to us.
Take care xx
Hi Mutatio,
Continue to move forward my friend. It is a very difficult situation you find yourself in cohabiting but you seem to be handling it well. I love your motivation video, it is a powerful message.
I would second Beagley's book recommendation about "No More Mr. Nice Guy" I am reading this book along with "Co-Dependent No More"; this have helped me really start shifting my focus inward.
Allow your wife to ride out her journey, support her with love from a distance.
God Bless.
How very lucky I am to friends as wise as you all.
Sotto you brought clarity to the subtly differences affecting my situation. Thank you for taking the time to show me light.
EM your support is always appreciated, I love that video, it has helped me get unstuck many times. I will buy NMMNG soon.
This community is greater then the sum of it's parts. We do make the world a better place.
I hold you all in deep regard. Enjoy your day.
Mutatio
Careful external links are a real issue here and Cadet willbeverykeentoremoveit.
V
Sorry, I was not aware of that. I will not do it again.
Club rules!!
Are you ready to discuss that early period?
V
Hi V, I am ready to discuss the early period. If you had some questions, that might get the ball rolling in the right direction.
Thanks for offering to help me.
How do you copy posted text and put it in that box in a different post?
Vanilla, anything your looking for from the early period?
There are a number of different ways
Method 1
1. Run with two windows
2. Put the item you want to 'quote' into a quote box. Of its own
3. Highlight the items you want then use the copy command
4. Go to the second box in a second window where you have started a reply then paste.
This works on windows and apple systems, uses the clipboard
Method 2
1. Create a quote from full screen
2. Trim box in full screen removing items you want
3. If you want to change the text it is protocol to indicate the changes in either colour or initialising, boxes etc. if quoting from another's thread that should be credited and if possible a link to the original
4. You can change the context notes: the bit after quote ie Re vidya re Vanilla etc
5. Quick quote will insert the whole of the item into the open box. quick quote works differently to quote
I find it handy to use pages or word for my amendments of complex postings. I have learned the internet swallows posts so it's useful to select all or copy all to the clipboard before I go do something else. I keep my notes on each poster that I think about- one page per poster. I also now keep links to their posts and an annotation t3p5 which is thread3 page 5 for instance.
Hope this helps, there may be other quicker ways but these are my tried and true. The two open windows or webpages helps because I can go a wandering on one to find what I want and keep the other master posting box on screen. The link icon on the full screen edit post box ejects me from the site on my ipad2 so I don't use it. I have a work around instead.
It's best for threads not to lock as otherwise posting and quoting is really difficult so I recommend you create a new thread at about 94 posts (about 10-11 pages) the exact number is given in forum list newbies against the last post, gives room for your link post and a couple of random posts thereafter. If the old post isn't linked to the new one, then posters keep posting until the thread locks.
In other words new thread needed. I posted this tale end of old thread as your new thread is yours to journal and I don't want it cluttered with admin.
I am working on my post off site, post soon.
V
thank you Vanilla. I will assume your last sentence refers to what your looking for about my story.
My wife spoke to me yesterday morning for 5 minutes, all pleasant. I left she said bye. Last night I get home from meditation and she is doing yoga. Do to house layout I have to walk by her and I say hi. No response from her and that's ok, just saying. This morning she comes into the kitchen and I say Good Morning, no response. She sees the 2 cats, gives them a warm hello and compassionate conversation. Gets the dog from my son's room to let out. She is talking to the dog with loving kindness. Dog goes out and she is back with me, silence. I leave for work and say bye, silence.
I don't understand, I give her the space she wants. I respect her wishes.
I pull my weight and more around the house and with the family.
What have I done to be held in such contempt? To be shut out so completely?
I will continue to be polite.
I will continue to be respectful.
I will continue to honor her wishes.
I will to do the right thing.
.....sigh
Please start a new thread. You currently have 103 postings/replies.