Hello I am a first time poster to this forum, and admittedly a bit overwhelmed by all of the abbreviations & jargon, so please forgive any misuse of such while I’m still learning!
I have read DR and also watched several of Michelle’s DB videos on YouTube over the last year. Love everything about both!
I’ve spent the last three days searching and reading through 100s of threads and topics on this forum and have been SO impressed by the knowledge, wisdon and assistance offered by many here. I am seeking advice.
Me: 39
W: 37
S6
S4
Married 8 yrs
Together 16 yrs
I believe I am the LBS in a WAW situation. My W and I still live together, we are not separated, and W has not asked for a D, nor do I believe she wants one. I do suspect she is having an A, but only have evidence that alludes to it, nothing concrete, nor am I prying or investigating.
My sitch is as follows:
About 5 years ago, W began to disclose unhappiness in our M due to a lack of emotional connection. 3 years ago she suggested we see a couples therapist, which I happily agreed to. After 6 sessions we both agreed to seek a different therapist as the current one did not seem to offer any solutions. We saw a new therapist, specializing in Imago Relationship Therapy (created by Harville Hendrix PhD via the book “Getting The Love You Want”), for 10 sessions.
W was open and participatory during our 10, 1hr sessions, however did not complete any of the homework assignments or practice any of the techniques taught to us, while I emphatically embraced the reading and conversational exercises assigned. Essentially she did not participate outside of the therapy sessions. During the sessions she disclosed her unhappiness being due to 1) she felt I was not as emotionally available as she desired, 2) she desired more help with the child care duties, and 3) she didn’t feel as though I viewed her as an ‘equal’ partner. #1 was rather vague , #2 was fairly easy to pinpoint specifics, and #3 was left vague as well.
I worked hard and made many changes based on the requests of W during our sessions, which she acknowledged both to me directly, and during our later sessions, and she seemed, and verbally acknowledged, she was much happier. She suggested we discontinue our therapy, and only go back as needed. We never returned, and our last session was 1 year ago.
During this period, W was also seeing her own therapist, 1-on-1, who is more of a ‘New Age’ type therapist. Crystals, Oils, Meditation, etc. and not particularly focused on solutions, but rather female independence.
W stopped complaining, however seemed to grow more distant (as described exactly in DR as WAW). Intimacy grew more infrequent, and she placed a priority on being with / talking with / texting her friends, and eventually I grew concerned that I was still initiating the changes sought by W, but feeling more and more like I was in a 1 sided relationship.
Over the past 3 months, as she has been training for and starting a new career (her first, having never worked, and always being supported by me, which I am happy to do BTW!), she has been increasingly mean and seems to snap at me for the most minor things. When asked about it, she explained her behavior away as stress related to her new career and stepping out of her comfort zone for the first time, and her insecurities about it. I offered encouraging words and support, helping her craft a business plan and discussing sales techniques I used to teach as part of a prior job. This calmed her down and she said she was very grateful for that. I have also been proactively doing more around the house to help take some responsibilities off her plate. I even cleaned out and organized her closet while she was out with her girlfriends, something she has wanted to do for weeks but has been putting off.
Last weekend, we watched a movie about a distressed woman who was in an unfulfilling marriage, and was cheating on her H with several OM. I later accidentally found a message meant for her therapist (mistakenly sent to me), saying that she found it very ironic that I picked out the movie (randomly) and that the whole time we were watching it, she was feeling (insert wide eyed blushing, straight-faced emoticon). Whoa! Not sure if that means OM is involved or not, but regardless, not a good thing either way!
Without confronting her about the message itself, I told her I just wanted to check in, since we hadn’t talked about our relationship in depth since stopping couples therapy, and see how she was feeling now, a year later, about our marriage.
What she told me turned my world upside down! She said ILYBNILWY. When asked why she was still with me, she replied b/c she’s not so unhappy as to warrant disrupting our family unit. When I told her I thought she was happier, etc. since we had therapy, she stated she is happier now than she was a year ago, and the reason is that she cares less now about me and what I think of her. She then said that I have been awesome and she has been very happy with the changes I’ve made since our therapy a year ago, and that I’m a really great husband “on paper” but she’s just not feeling 100% connected, and not any more connected since the changes were made.
I was/am crushed. I didn’t know how to react. I was deeply hurt and confused. The next morning (Sunday) I had a tough morning and began to break down a little when recalling the conversation. I told her I needed to get out of the house for a bit b/c I didn’t want the kids to see me so distressed. I went to my office, reflected on what had transpired, and scheduled a DB coaching session for Monday. She texted me asking if I was ok and stating she was worried about me. I replied I was ok just had a rough morning and would be home soon. That evening I was sullen and withdrawn, and didn’t really converse much.
Monday, my DB coach advised me that it sounded like a WAW situation with perhaps a little MLC (on her end – i.e. new career), and that I should act lovingly detached, upbeat, and friendly, and not say ILY. I did this when I got home and admittedly it did seem to confuse her b/c I think she was expecting me to be acting sullen or depressed. She said she had called our therapist from a year ago, and had scheduled a session. I, somewhat dismissivly replied, “OK, but do you think that really helped us last time?” She didn’t really respond. I had pleasant conversation w/ her (light) and was upbeat and detached the rest of the evening.
This weekend is her birthday, and prior to this latest development I had ordered her a custom gold & diamond necklace which was rather expensive. For her birthday weekend, we are travelling out of town with 2 other couples and have rented a house together. I’m acting as though there is no issue or problem, and keeping a smile on my face. However, I’d love some advice since I have some questions prior to my next DB coaching session:
1) Do I give her the birthday gift? I’ve seen similar questions posted in multiple threads here, and the answer is usually “as long as your not expecting anything or hoping to gain brownie points” – which I’m not.
2) If I continue acting detached, I feel that I am going against the change that she’s repeatedly requested – more connection. Will being detached work for me in this instance or against me?
3) W is the one who proactively has scheduled a therapy session next Monday. I believe this to be a good sign that she wants to work on the marriage, and perhaps has decided to place some priority on it. Shall I take this as a good sign, or should I respond differently?
4) W talks to her friends about our relationship more than she talks to me about it. I almost feel like a total outsider with no insight into my own situation. Do I bring this up, or let it ride for now?
5) I'm not planning on further investigating or even asking her about her possible affair. Honestly I'm not sure if it would make any difference if I did find out, other than increase her guilt, which I'm not trying to do. Is this the correct view at this time?
I hope I did not breach protocol here with this very long post. I really appreciate any insight from the esteemed members here. I love my W deeply, she is the center of my universe and I want to fight to win her love back. I wish I felt the love from her that I used to. I haven’t seen that smile and look in her eye, or any affection, for ages. We still sleep in the same bed, and have a relatively good sex life, but the love just isn’t there anymore. Am I on the right track to revival? Thanks a million for any feedback!!!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
rambler,
don't sweat the length of the posts, electrons are cheap. people will read.
first thing is read all the homework and read others threads to get moving.
I am sorry you are here, but glad you found this place.
Thank you Cadet & Zephyr for your responses. I have read DR as well as the homework threads provided by Cadet. Some awesome stuff there! actually I had read them prior to posting as I'd seen Cadet's similar reply to other newcomers. It's remarkable how many people struggle with the same common themes. Any feedback on my numbered questions from my original post would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks to all!
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thank you Cadet & Zephyr for your responses. I have read DR as well as the homework threads provided by Cadet. Some awesome stuff there! actually I had read them prior to posting as I'd seen Cadet's similar reply to other newcomers. It's remarkable how many people struggle with the same common themes. Any feedback on my numbered questions from my original post would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks to all!
Here are my thoughts...but I'm certainly no vet.
1) Do I give her the birthday gift? I’ve seen similar questions posted in multiple threads here, and the answer is usually “as long as your not expecting anything or hoping to gain brownie points” – which I’m not.
you CAN give it to her. I wouldn't expect much. I probably wouldn't get much as your already going on a trip. Not sure if you can return this gift. But I wouldn't think you will get much thanks for it. 2) If I continue acting detached, I feel that I am going against the change that she’s repeatedly requested – more connection. Will being detached work for me in this instance or against me?
read the homework again! Being detached does NOT mean to ignore her, to be unloving, to be distant. None of that. It means yo separate YOUR emotional well being from HER actions, words, emotions, etc. so no, I don't view being detached as "more of the same"3) W is the one who proactively has scheduled a therapy session next Monday. I believe this to be a good sign that she wants to work on the marriage, and perhaps has decided to place some priority on it. Shall I take this as a good sign, or should I respond differently?
you can go. You may learn something(s). But a lot of WASs use MC as a way to say "I tried." I wouldn't squint to look for signs. If she wants to rebuild your M, you'll know 4) W talks to her friends about our relationship more than she talks to me about it. I almost feel like a total outsider with no insight into my own situation. Do I bring this up, or let it ride for now?
what EXACTLY would you say? You can't control who she talks to or what she talks about. I don't see any outcome where doing this benefits you. 5) I'm not planning on further investigating or even asking her about her possible affair. Honestly I'm not sure if it would make any difference if I did find out, other than increase her guilt, which I'm not trying to do. Is this the correct view at this time?
theres mixed views on this. On the one hand, knowledge is powerful. Knowing that she's in an affair may change some of the ways you may want to act. There's definitely a difference in the WAS who is "done" from the WS that is high on an A drug. On the other hand, the constant fact checking and snooping will drive you crazy, drive her away, and may in fact CAUSE an A. In my opinion, I'd back off, but that's just my opinion.
This was such a helpful post!! So glad I found this site. I want to call my WAH and yell and swear at him because I am so hurt and so mad. But instead, I'm reading some of these post, and figured I might as well do something with the rest of my evening, like call my best girlfriend over. It's safe to cry and rant in front of her. H doesn't need to hear from me at all tonight. The site is a lifesaver! I hope it will also be a marriage saver, but whatever happens in that situation, I myself can still all right
Thank you Cadet for sharing Wonka's post about sharing the DR book or this website. My DB Coach said not to offer up to share it, however if W inquired, I should share it. For now, I'll keep it to myself.
Thanks Azzork for your awesome feedback!!!!
I guess I needed a little help on understanding what being "lovingly detached" means for my situation. My DB Coach said to be 'lovingly detached, friendly, and upbeat'. I'm struggling a little with understanding the correct way to act as in my mind there are some conflicting terms.
W desires more emotional connection, help w/ domestic tasks (kids, home, etc), and feeling like she's treated as an 'equal partner'. I've made real strides in this over the last year, as mentioned in my original post, and she's acknowledged, and a few days ago said that "I've been awesome" about those things.
Still, the situation seems to have worsened. SO....would continuing to do those things be 'more of the same', and therefor not what I should be doing?
Should I continue to engage her asking about her thoughts & feelings about her new job, friends, family, etc (but not asking about our M or relationship, obviously), as well as being attentive and affectionate toward her (hugs, greetings, kisses, flirting, etc - which is my usual behavior), and continuing to give extra effort trying to be super-husband / super-dad (which I've been doing for several months)?
OR..... should I simply be a happy guy, working on myself, being fun to be around, helpful, available to talk but not initiating deep conversations, and generally not trying too hard to be proactive in delivering these requested, and normally exhibited behaviors?
OR....some other way of acting day to day which I'm not thinking of?
Regarding #3) I've accepted her invitation for a MC session w/ our last therapist, which will be on Monday. Hopefully this will be helpful as she should disclose additional needs/wants/issues, so I can be more clued in and assist in my next DB Coaching session next week.
4)... you're completely right Azzork, I'll not intervene w/ her friends/family discussions, or even bring it up. Don't think there's any benefit to that currently.
5) I've decided to ignore the possible A for now. Azzork thanks for verifying my gut feel on this part, re: what to do.
Yes - STOP engaging.
It is pursuit and sometime the sound of our voice can
be enough to be seen as pursuit.
Keep living your life and doing whats best for YOU.
Stop trying to FIX your marriage, FIX yourself instead and
become a person that only a fool would leave.
I guess I needed a little help on understanding what being "lovingly detached" means for my situation. My DB Coach said to be 'lovingly detached, friendly, and upbeat'. I'm struggling a little with understanding the correct way to act as in my mind there are some conflicting terms.
Read the detachment thread. A couple times. But in general, if she talks to you about problems or something, then you show empathy, you validate her feelings. Dont try to SOLVE them. Dont try to EXPLAIN them. Just let her know that you are "on her side."
W desires more emotional connection, help w/ domestic tasks (kids, home, etc), and feeling like she's treated as an 'equal partner'. I've made real strides in this over the last year, as mentioned in my original post, and she's acknowledged, and a few days ago said that "I've been awesome" about those things.
Still, the situation seems to have worsened. SO....would continuing to do those things be 'more of the same', and therefor not what I should be doing?
Should I continue to engage her asking about her thoughts & feelings about her new job, friends, family, etc (but not asking about our M or relationship, obviously), as well as being attentive and affectionate toward her (hugs, greetings, kisses, flirting, etc - which is my usual behavior), and continuing to give extra effort trying to be super-husband / super-dad (which I've been doing for several months)?
OR..... should I simply be a happy guy, working on myself, being fun to be around, helpful, available to talk but not initiating deep conversations, and generally not trying too hard to be proactive in delivering these requested, and normally exhibited behaviors?
OK...several questions in one here. She will not respect you any more if you suddenly become a housekeeper. You wont "win" her back by doing all of the household chores. Clean up after yourself. Clean common areas sometimes. But if youre scrubbing the toilet every other day, it isnt going to earn her respect or make her love you more.
As for emotional connection, you have to let her drive. You want to master being empathetic and validating as I said above. This is what BUILDS the emotional connection. Firing tons of questions at her is going to be seen as "trying too hard" or "too little too late". By the same token, trying to fix her problems is going to be seen as controlling. On the other hand, you are still living together and married. SO still be pleasant. Be upbeat. You can ask some general questions - how was your day? think it's going to rain? Pizza or pasta for dinner? etc. But you dont want to be asking her about emotional topics. Let her drive that bus.
OR....some other way of acting day to day which I'm not thinking of?
Regarding #3) I've accepted her invitation for a MC session w/ our last therapist, which will be on Monday. Hopefully this will be helpful as she should disclose additional needs/wants/issues, so I can be more clued in and assist in my next DB Coaching session next week.
It's OK to go if she wants. You are still married, and as far as you know, shes not UNinterested in staying marriage. Just be prepared that it may not go as you think. Try to let her do most of the talking. STFU as much as humanly possible.
4)... you're completely right Azzork, I'll not intervene w/ her friends/family discussions, or even bring it up. Don't think there's any benefit to that currently.
Im not sure theres any benefit EVER. Even IF they take "your side", she will just ditch them as friends.
5) I've decided to ignore the possible A for now. Azzork thanks for verifying my gut feel on this part, re: what to do.
I am really sorry youre here. I went through exactly same things youre doing and did every single possible thing opposite of what Im advising you to do. Im going to let you know that it didnt work out so well.
Wow thanks again Azzork! so helpful!
Based on your suggestions I am going to:
1) Go back and re-read all of the detachment info / threads
2) Be friendly, upbeat, etc. Engage her in light conversation only, be empathetic to any emotional topics SHE raises, and do my part to help w/ domestic stuff but not ramp it up to a higher level.
3) Go to the MC session and LISTEN like crazy
I'm felling a lot clearer on this now!
One more thing....PHYSICAL AFFECTION....
I normally give her a hug and kiss when I leave/get home from work, kiss goodnight, and playful stuff (butt smack) periodically, hold hands/touch hands or feet in bed, and 'make a move' a couple times a week (historically gets positive response about 75% of the time, leading to sex).
Since the conversation last Saturday, I've not initiated ANY physical contact whatsoever - I've basically 'gone dark' on the physical front (which is a 180 for me - testing it out). SHE gave me a butt smack on Sunday, but I didn't acknowledge it.
Should I continue to forego initiating physical contact of any kind, or should I treat this the same as the detaching we're discussing, i.e. maybe a kiss / hug goodbye/goodnight but not making any moves for sex or flirting other than responding to any that SHE initiates?
Kind of feel ridiculous asking this question but it's a real blurry area for me.
THANKS Cadet !!!!! will do!
Welcome to the community. Don't worry about long posts, I broke protocol a long time ago.
Also, don't worry about learning so much jargon, etc. Nobody comes any greener than I was.
Does your W know that you suspect her A? If not, don't say anything about it, yet. Confrontation,
alone, solves nothing. If you do get proof, do not reveal your sources, no matter what she says. Most WW's look right at the proof and deny the truth.
Without confronting her about the message itself, I told her I just wanted to check in, since we hadn’t talked about our relationship in depth since stopping couples therapy, and see how she was feeling now, a year later, about our marriage.
It will be tempting to check her about how she feels, but don't ask anything regarding the relationship. The wider the opening you give her, the more bashing and blaming you'll get.
What she told me turned my world upside down! She said ILYBNILWY. When asked why she was still with me, she replied b/c she’s not so unhappy as to warrant disrupting our family unit. When I told her I thought she was happier, etc. since we had therapy, she stated she is happier now than she was a year ago, and the reason is that she cares less now about me and what I think of her. She then said that I have been awesome and she has been very happy with the changes I’ve made since our therapy a year ago, and that I’m a really great husband “on paper” but she’s just not feeling 100% connected, and not any more connected since the changes were made.
I cannot imagine how that must have made you feel. I have several questions for you. Did you make any decisions based on what she had to say? Have you done anything differently, since she told you? Do you understand "why" or "how" she could say you were a great H on paper, but that she's not feeling any more connected? Who is to blame for her not feeling any more connected after all your hard work to make the changes you thought she wanted?
Monday, my DB coach advised me that it sounded like a WAW situation with perhaps a little MLC (on her end – i.e. new career), and that I should act lovingly detached, upbeat, and friendly, and not say ILY. I did this when I got home and admittedly it did seem to confuse her b/c I think she was expecting me to be acting sullen or depressed. She said she had called our therapist from a year ago, and had scheduled a session. I, somewhat dismissivly replied, “OK, but do you think that really helped us last time?” She didn’t really respond. I had pleasant conversation w/ her (light) and was upbeat and detached the rest of the evening.
How would you describe detaching?
This weekend is her birthday, and prior to this latest development I had ordered her a custom gold & diamond necklace which was rather expensive. For her birthday weekend, we are travelling out of town with 2 other couples and have rented a house together. I’m acting as though there is no issue or problem, and keeping a smile on my face.
Again, let me ask how you describe detaching?
If I continue acting detached, I feel that I am going against the change that she’s repeatedly requested – more connection. Will being detached work for me in this instance or against me?
What are you actually doing to give her the impression you are detached and she isn't getting what she wanted? What do you see as detaching?
W is the one who proactively has scheduled a therapy session next Monday. I believe this to be a good sign that she wants to work on the marriage, and perhaps has decided to place some priority on it. Shall I take this as a good sign, or should I respond differently?
It is not a "sign" of anything. She told you how she feels
after she told you about the app't. Right? Don't respond at all. Don't bring it up, don't ask anything.
W talks to her friends about our relationship more than she talks to me about it. I almost feel like a total outsider with no insight into my own situation. Do I bring this up, or let it ride for now?
She
justifies herself to her friends. Do NOT bring it up. To her, you are not only an outsider, but her enemy. You need to accept something. You won't understand but you need to accept it. This woman is not the girl your married. She has changed. The dynamics of the relationship has changed. You cannot make her love you. You cannot make her change. You cannot control her. So, don't try. I don't say this to discourage you, but to warn you to prepare yourself. This is more serious than a couple who is simply trying to "improve" their MR. Even if she hasn't asked for a divorce, she has no feelings for you. What does that tell you?
Stick around, and we'll help you.
I'm not planning on further investigating or even asking her about her possible affair. Honestly I'm not sure if it would make any difference if I did find out, other than increase her guilt, which I'm not trying to do. Is this the correct view at this time?
If you don't want to know, then that's up to you.
Asking her accomplishes nothing, except it warns her to go deeper undercover (if she's actually having an A). It won't necessarily cause her more guilt. You are comparing her to the girl you married. She's not that girl anymore. Once the cheater knows that you know, it opens a whole new can of nasty worms. Only you can decide what you want to know and not know.
Don't let my post discourage you. I was once a wayward wife in an A. This board helped save me and my marriage. What I tell you will mostly from the viewpoint of a wife much like yours. The majority here are LBS, just like you, and they will support and offer you comfort. Don't give up hope.
Thanks SO MUCH sandi2 !!! I've read lots of your posts and honored you would take the time to advise me!! Responses to your Qs below...
I have several questions for you. Did you make any decisions based on what she had to say?
Based on what she had to say, I decided I needed to buy and read DR and hire a DB coach to advise me, as I am unsure how to proceed.
Have you done anything differently, since she told you?
Since she told me, what I have done differently is: Not bring up our relationship, act largely unaffected, and act positive and happy around her. I also have stopped initiating all physical contact with her (see my questions about that in my prior post - and please feel free to chime in!). I have also stopped complimenting her, calling her pet names, and saying ILY.
Do you understand "why" or "how" she could say you were a great H on paper, but that she's not feeling any more connected?
I'm not sure I fully understand why she would say "I'm a great H on paper" - but what I believe she meant was that I was doing all of the right things (actions) in responding to her prior requests, but she simply was not feeling in love with me.
Who is to blame for her not feeling any more connected after all your hard work to make the changes you thought she wanted?
Not sure it's a "blame" thing here. who can attribute blame to a feeling? I cannot control her feelings, only she can. I can only control MY feelings (to some extent - getting better at that each day!) and MY actions.
How would you describe detaching?
Originally (2 days ago) I thought detaching was acting distant and not engaging. Now through the help of some responses to this thread, as well as further reading on the topic, I understand it to be detaching from the ability for W to affect my emotions (tough!), and detaching from the concept that I can 'fix' her feelings toward me through pursuit. I'm still not even sure if this is correct so feel free to opine.
What are you actually doing to give her the impression you are detached and she isn't getting what she wanted?
Right now I'm acting 'as if' I am unaffected by her statements - I am not acting sullen or depressed (as she would expect). I am not following her around the house or even paying much attention to her - not being unfriendly, but not initiating anything other than light conversation. I am also not initiating any physical contact (a big 180 for me). I am not trying to alert her of my emotional availability by inquiring about her emotions. Basically, I'm not acting like anything major is going wrong at all.
She told you how she feels after she told you about the app't. Right?
No, actually she only told me how she feels this last Saturday when I inquired. When she saw my original reaction (see 1st post), which also consisted of me saying that I did not want to live out my life in a 1-sided relationship, she took it upon herself to schedule the MC appointment, and told me about it this past Monday evening.
I hope this helps shed some more light on the sitch for you. Again, a million thanks for your thoughtful response!!!
Sandi2, I forgot to answer one of your questions in my last response:
Does your W know that you suspect her A?
I did ask her if there was OM about 6 months ago, she said no, and I haven't said anything since. So, I do not believe she knows I am currently suspicious of an A.
Can anyone offer some insight to this question from one of my earlier posts:
PHYSICAL AFFECTION....
I normally give W a hug and kiss when I leave/get home from work, kiss goodnight, and playful stuff (butt smack) periodically, hold hands/touch hands or feet in bed, and 'make a move' a couple times a week (historically gets positive response about 75% of the time, leading to sex).
Since the conversation last Saturday, I've not initiated ANY physical contact whatsoever - I've basically 'gone dark' on the physical front (which is a 180 for me - testing it out). SHE gave me a butt smack on Sunday, but I didn't acknowledge it.
Should I continue to forego initiating physical contact of any kind, or should I treat this the same as the detaching we're discussing, i.e. maybe a kiss / hug goodbye/goodnight but not making any moves for sex or flirting other than responding to any that SHE initiates?
Kind of feel ridiculous asking this question but it's a real blurry area for me.
MY general inclination is - NO
It is pursuit.
Does she pursue YOU?
Sandi2, I forgot to answer one of your questions in my last response:
Does your W know that you suspect her A?
I did ask her if there was OM about 6 months ago, she said no, and I haven't said anything since. So, I do not believe she knows I am currently suspicious of an A.
Do you believe she would say "YES" if there was an OM?
Also, I agree with Cadet...I would stop with most all of the physical stuff unless she starts to pursue you.
Thank you Cadet & Azzork !!!
Azzork, I guess I wouldn't expect her to say "YES" if asked if there was an OM.
But when I asked, it was many many months before discovering the DB strategies, so I'm definitely learning lots now.
I'm going to refrain from any physical affection unless she pursues / initiates it.
thanks for all of the fantastic advise it really helps more than you know!
If you want to get into more advanced information read the pursuit and distance thread very closely,
(in the homework)
especially the first post and my posts and quotes.
I'm going to refrain from any physical affection unless she pursues / initiates it.
one Warning here. IF and I say IF there is someone else, you need to protect yourself. I mean physically and emotionally.
If your wife is messing around, then physical protection is paramount. The other side...I attach a significant meaning to sexual relations. honestly I do. It is the reason we never had sex for the first couple of years of our dating..
To me, I attach significance to making love...as Sandi has pointed out though, for the WW...it is just sex. You need to be able to not take meaning from this, protecting yourself emotionally.
This is just my take on it, others may have reasons to say ... just do it.
Zephyr that's a really good point and something I had not thought about prior to your post. I will have to give that some serious consideration. Thanks so much for the insight!
Thanks Cadet! I re-read the distancer/pursuer thread from the homework. For the first half of our relationships, I was definitely the distanced and W was the pursuer. Then we broke up, went our separate ways for 2 years, and I became the pursuer. I pursued her successfully, and married 2yrs later.
After M all seemed well for about 2yrs until we started having kids. Of course things are more hectic during those times and we both neglected our relationship. I think this brought back some of her memories of the time she was Pursuer and I was Distancer, and W believed that was again becoming the case, desiring more emotional closeness; a deeper connection emotionally.
My reaction was to Pursue! and I have been Pursuing ever since (6yrs now), and W has slowly become more and more of a Distancer.
After our MC sessions I described in earlier posts, I took the Pursuit up to a new higher level, which is what she verbalized she wanted and what the therapist recommended I try.
It's strange how it seems W requested pursuit, however the result of my pursuit was her becoming more of a distancer -- a paradox.
The last 12 months have been me Pursuing 100% and W distancing herself (while asking for more pursuit from me!). SO - from what I've learned is that I need to stop pursuing.
This week I have completely stopped pursuing, and have been outwardly cheerful. W seems to have taken notice to this and I can tell she is more melancholy/sad/disappointed when I'm around which may be due to the fact I have stopped pursuing, stopped greeting her w/ hugs/kisses, stopped saying ILY, etc., and my outward appearance to W is that I am totally fine with that.
It almost seems as though W is trying to bait me in to ask her what is wrong and launch a conversation about our R, which I haven't given in to. She may just be thinking that her fears ARE founded, and that I've suddenly given up interest in 'tending' to her emotional needs and pursuing her. And possibly asking herself 'what if' this M is over and she needs to move on?
From what I've read, this seems the possible first step in W realizing that I'm really a good and loving H and once reality sets in of the bleaker alternative, it may cause her to begin to Pursue. We shall see. I know if I begin to see signs of her pursuit (and I hope I will, eventually), that I will just react by opening the door slightly and not dive right back into the dance.
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
Can anyone offer some advice re this?
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
Great question I have the same issue. Seems like MC and DB are almost polar opposites?
I'm felling a lot clearer on this now!
One more thing....PHYSICAL AFFECTION....
I normally give her a hug and kiss when I leave/get home from work, kiss goodnight, and playful stuff (butt smack) periodically, hold hands/touch hands or feet in bed, and 'make a move' a couple times a week (historically gets positive response about 75% of the time, leading to sex).
Forget it! Would you want someone you didn't love pressuring you for physical affection? Well, that's how the usual WW feels toward the LBH. Unless she is very sexually
high drive and not in a physical affair with OM, then she
might consent to sex sometimes. My question to you is why would you want to give
her affection, knowing how she feels toward you?
Since the conversation last Saturday, I've not initiated ANY physical contact whatsoever - I've basically 'gone dark' on the physical front (which is a 180 for me - testing it out). SHE gave me a butt smack on Sunday, but I didn't acknowledge it.
Good! That's the way to do it. I have another question for you. If you decide to go with not knowing if she's in an A.....will you continue on with this 180, or wait until you can't hold out any longer for sex and then cave to initiate? Hummmmmm...... I guess time will tell? I hope you won't take chances by having sex with
anyone when you don't know if she's had sex with another man. Know what I mean? Better to protect yourself than get a STD.
Kind of feel ridiculous asking this question but it's a real blurry area for me.
No, it's not ridiculous at all. It often takes an outsider to be able to see your stitch more rationally, b/c you are too are emotionally involved. Plus, that's how you learn.....ask to make sure. :)
After our MC sessions I described in earlier posts, I took the Pursuit up to a new higher level, which is what she verbalized she wanted and what the therapist recommended I try.
It's strange how it seems W requested pursuit, however the result of my pursuit was her becoming more of a distancer -- a paradox.
Once the WW feels "done" with the MR, she often gives past complaints about her H, even if he has made strides to correct his part. It is strange and illogical for a woman who is emotionally D, to attend MC and give excuses that she needs her H to pursue her.......when in reality, it is NOT what she desires at all. Many, many WW will go to a few sessions of MC for outward show that she did everything to save the M. MC, in my opinion, is not very successful until the WW has a change of heart and desires to do what is necessary to save the M.
It almost seems as though W is trying to bait me in to ask her what is wrong and launch a conversation about our R, which I haven't given in to
Oh yes! She will go to extremes to pull you into a R talk. By not taking the bait, it challenges her. It is not b/c her fears are founded that you have given up on the M. It is not b/c she really wants you to continue pursuing! A new LBH has no clue as to how she thinks or feels. I can tell you that it is usually opposite of what he thinks she may be feeling. You are still thinking of how the old W might feel or react to your 180. This WW gal isn't that old W. Your interpretation of seeing her sad, etc., is in reality, is her being sullen and pouting, just as a child will do. A WW can be very manipulative, so whenever the H doesn't fall into the step she designed, she will think of something else. But it won't be what you may be thinking it will be.
As far as the MC Monday, why are you going? If you have a DB coach, it could cause confusion for you. Has she actually asked if you are going? Have you called the MC's office to see if she really made an app't?
If you decide to go with not knowing if she's in an A.....will you continue on with this 180, or wait until you can't hold out any longer for sex and then cave to initiate?
I plan to not investigate the possible A, and continue the 180. However, if she tries to initiate sex, or asks why I've stopped all physical,
what is the best way to respond?As far as the MC Monday, why are you going? If you have a DB coach, it could cause confusion for you. Has she actually asked if you are going? Have you called the MC's office to see if she really made an app't?
She did make the appt. and I agreed to go, but didn't talk about it, just agreed. Why am I going? I'm hoping to see if better insight can be gained as she historically opens up mor in MC sessions.
Are you suggesting I should consider canceling, and if so, why? Upside?
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
If it were me, I would stay as quiet as possible, in hopes the C would direct questions to the W. If the C directed the question to you, first, maybe reply by saying you need to hear your W's answer before you can respond. You can always give vague answers, such as, "I'm not sure how I feel about anything at the moment".
I plan to not investigate the possible A, and continue the 180. However, if she tries to initiate sex, or asks why I've stopped all physical, what is the best way to respond?
At one point you said you plan to refrain, unless she initiated. If so, then why questions on how to answer her if she initiates?
I can think of things
I would probably say. Such as, "If I wanted to have sex with someone who claims they aren't in love with me........I'd just find a prostitute". But I'd advise you not to say anything that tacky. How about one of these, "Considering the state of our MR, having sex just seems a little less desirable right now". "I have not been in the mood, considering everything". "I have not had any motivation". "Are you serious"! "Thanks, but I'll pass".
As you can tell, this is not my area of talent. Maybe someone else can offer better answers.
I am not clear about your plan of action, except to continue 180 with physical affection. How long do you think you can hold out? Do you plan to wait it out? Is there anything she could do that
would be a deal breaker for you?
How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
Why do you feel you must convey the message that you want to work on the M? She already knows you want to work on it.
She has dropped the bomb, saying she wasn't in love with you, but you are giving her a life good enough that she isn't ready to leave. She pulls away, while you pursue. How can you turn this around and cause her to pursue you? Is it by assuring her how much you want to work at saving the M? What you want is not the problem. The issue is not about you.
Your MC may be very good, but most C's get you to open up and do the talking, right? DB suggests you create some mystery about your feelings, your actions, etc. DB tells us not to talk about the relationship, if the spouse is not interested in saving the M. It suggests you step back and give her space while you detach and GAL. Somehow, I just don't think the MC is going to tell you this in front of your W. The C's job is to continue asking questions to prompt the couple to talk about their complaints and feelings.....which usually leads to more friction......especially if one is a WW/WAW.
That's just my take on it, FWIW.
Thanks for your responses Sandi2!
I am not clear about your plan of action, except to continue 180 with physical affection. How long do you think you can hold out? Do you plan to wait it out?
My current plan of action is to continue 180 with physical affection (i.e. not attempting any). I believe I can hold out/wait it out as long as necessary. The DR book teaches that you don't want your WAW to feel pressure to be physical. I think I'm unclear and still seeking advice on how to respond if/when she decides to initiate physical intimacy. My interpretation of the way DR approaches the concept, is to accept it without showing that you're doing cartwheels/over-excited, and not reading too much into it (providing you can emotionally handle that, as a prior responder stated). Am I misinterpreting or missing anything critical here?
Since I'm not sure if she's in an A, I am going to just put that notion on the back burner for now - again this is the technique recommended in DR.
Why do you feel you must convey the message that you want to work on the M? She already knows you want to work on it.
Good Point. I guess since I have been acting more detached, she has noticed and it appears to upset her. This is another area I'm confused. If she's upset (i.e. crying and asking me to talk about R) after a night out with friends during which I was friendly and upbeat, but detached and 180 opposite of my usual level of attentiveness, is this to be interpreted as positive or negative result?
She has dropped the bomb, saying she wasn't in love with you, but you are giving her a life good enough that she isn't ready to leave. She pulls away, while you pursue. How can you turn this around and cause her to pursue you?
Boy that is the $1M question! I wish I knew the answer. I'm taking from DR that I will have to employ step 5 'Experiment & Monitor Results'. Right now my experiment is to 180 physical, work on myself, and I am also taking an initiative to take more interest in some of her interests, without showing it's for her benefit. For example, she loves Yoga. I've been hitting the gym regularly as a part of my personal self improvement strategy (in line w DR concepts). I decided to sign up for an introductory yoga class. When I mentioned I was taking that class (came up in scheduling conversation) she was totally surprised!! asked me why I didn't talk to her about doing yoga. I said it was something I wanted to try for myself - thought it would have some good benefits to complement my weight & cardio training. She totally lit up and invited me to do Yoga with her either at home together, or take a class together. I nonchalantly replied, well I'm going to try out this studio and I'll let you know if I enjoy it. and left it at that.
In summary, zero physical + detachment + GAL (incorporating exploration of mutual interests) are my current 3 'experiments' which I will monitor results.
So far, after 1 week, the detachment seems to be creating more negative results, still can't tell any results re; physical, + or -, and the GAL seems to be working to intrigue her.
Have the MC today as well as a DB coaching session. Will provide an update later. Thanks all for any responses / advice !
I guess since I have been acting more detached, she has noticed and it appears to upset her. This is another area I'm confused. If she's upset (i.e. crying and asking me to talk about R) after a night out with friends during which I was friendly and upbeat, but detached and 180 opposite of my usual level of attentiveness, is this to be interpreted as positive or negative result?
What would you consider being a positive result? I'm serious, what would you expect her to do that you thought was positive to your detaching?
You are still thinking like a H who has a normal W. She has changed, so stop thinking as if you have the same woman you use to have.
Actually, her reaction is a very positive result, IMO. She likes the attention you give her. You being detached is not only a surprise, but a
challenge for her to do something to get that attention back on her again. She may sulk about it, at first, then may get angry. A WW has a little bag of tricks she carries at all times. If one trick doesn't work, she'll reach in her bag for another one.
I think I'm unclear and still seeking advice on how to respond if/when she decides to initiate physical intimacy.
Well, if you mean what can you
say, I gave a few ideas in a post before my last one (I think). Maybe that wasn't what you were seeking. We need to know if you plan to accept if she initiates or refuse, before we can tell you how to respond.
OK....MC session AND DB Coach session, all in 1 day. Been a whirlwind.
Listened a lot in MC session, didn't talk that much. Here's what I learned (everything below is direct quote or paraphrase of what she said in the MC session:
W says deep emotional connection is not present or growing. She tends to avoid talking about her true feelings to me b/c she doesn't wan't to 'rock the boat' - we don't really fight, and she doesn't have any 'major grievances' and hesitates to bring up things which could be hurtful or harmful.
She has noticed that I stopped giving affection a week ago, and she understands why I did that - b/c she told me she doesn't love me, and W believes it was to see if she would step up and show anything (affection/feelings), which she did not do because 1) she would feel she was acting falsely, and 2) she doesn't know if she will ever have that feeling or if it was ever there to begin with, and doesn't want to give me false hope.
W doesn't know if this reality is temporary, but she's been feeling it for a long time.
W felt an obligation to family to work on R, but has felt for a while that R has run it's course. However, feels it would be selfish of her to disrupt our family/kids b/c things really are not terrible and W feels there should be something really awful in order to completely give up on R.
She feels no deep emotional connection to me. Does not feel drawn to me. She describes 'emotional connection' as: feeling at ease, connected, can be completely open and express thoughts and feelings confidently and comfortably, feeling a natural chemistry/connection/real friendship.
W acknowledges I have been successfully been working on these areas of our R, and she is thankful that I'm more emotionally available and I don't pass judgement, BUT it may be too late. She "can't seem to get on board fully" w/ what I'm offering.
W feels less likely now that 'getting on board' is a possibility, vs. a year ago. Even though I have demonstrated vast improvement in those areas and she's satisfied w/ my emotional availability.
W feels an obligation to see if things can be different, for the sake of our family/kids.
W feels uncomfortable; she knows what she SHOULD do, but it doesn't feel right. Here's her list of what she SHOULD do:
1) be affectionate toward me, hug, eye gaze, etc
2) open up to me about her feelings
3) be happier when she's with me
4) not resist the efforts I'm making
Even though she says she should do these things, it doesn't feel right b/c a part of her is DONE with the R and that is where the resistance comes from.
Our potential efforts to save M are worthwhile to keep the family together, BUT, not worthwhile to try to evoke a feeling from her that she's not sure is coming back, or was ever really there in the way I(H) thought it was.
W is scared about what may happen now that she has said this. Scared she may regret if we part ways. Scared how I will react, and if I will make a unilateral decision, and the implications of that.
W doesn't want to be stagnant, or continue to hold back her truths due to fear of their implications. W desires to be open and honest, regardless of the direction we ultimately take. Doesn't want negative feelings toward each other. Scared how I will react to this discussion (i.e. shut down, leave, disconnect, etc).
I did ask a few questions and relayed the paradox that she desires deep emotional connection, however we need to be totally honest w/ each other and talk about things like this if that is ever to occur. Mainly I deflected questions to her and LISTENED.
She was very upset this past weekend when we went out with friends and I didn't spend much time with her, and was 'detached'. She felt I was doing this b/c I was angry that she told me ILYBNILWY. I told her I was not angry, but she didn't believe me. I did not tell her the real reason was I was trying a 180 detach.
THEN I SPOKE TO MY DB COACH.
Coach said do not punish her. The 180 affection / detachment seemed more punitive than constructive. If her interactions with me feel rewarding to her, then that should be an indication I'm doing the right thing. He said she's not a pure WAW as compared to some others perhaps on this forum, where W is asking for space, or needs time alone, or separating, etc.
Coach said I should relay to her the 'vision' of the relationship worth fighting for. I should open myself up as much as possible, not just about the R, but about highs and lows for the day, how things (R and otherwise) impact me, and essentially convey to W that 'I want you to know who I am'.
He agreed my signing up for a Yoga class (one of her passions which I've never shown an interest in) was a great step since that really sparked her interest in a positive way, prompting her to ask "why didn't you just ask to go to a class with me, or do yoga w/ me at home?" I responded I wanted to try it out by myself first and see if I like it. Coach thought that was great and left some mystery to intrigue her.
Coach also said it was OK to show affection especially if it was empathetic, but not to go overboard. Still agreed I should continue to refrain from saying ILY, but there may be times when this would be beneficial.
I guess I am going to discontinue the affection embargo tactic, and go toward a mild affection tactic (strategically timed to give comfort to her). I still will not try to initiate sex, but I will hug/kiss goodbye in the AM and goodnight in PM. DB coach says in my case this would not be considered pursuit.
Both MC and DB Coach say to increase communication, both about R and other things as well. Ultimately I just want to do what works, and stop what doesn't work. So far, showing an interest in one of her passions has seemed to work. Perhaps if I can engage with something that naturally ignites her passion, she will be more likely to feel passion for me? I'm not expecting miracles of course, but thinking more long term strategy.
It's been a tough day hearing all this from someone I love so much. the feeling of rejection is not getting to me too badly (yet?), and I hope I can keep a bright outlook. I'm going to wait and see if she wants to bring anything up tonight about the R, and if not, I plan on sharing my feelings on some other topics, unrelated to our R. I hope I'm on the right path. Feeling like a total amateur here.
Progress being made.
Got home last night and got kids to sleep. W wanted to talk about our MC session and just see how i felt in general. I told her:
I have been doing research and getting therapy and advice on our situation. I realize that since we have had kids (2007), we have not been cultivating our own friendship / relationship by spending time together (quality time), being present in the moment and having conversations of any depth with each other, and not placing a priority on nurturing our friendship and setting time aside to focus on US. Also some of this was similarly going on even before kids.
Basically, I realize that I have not been proactive in ongoing cultivation of our friendship, and because of that, it has understandably disintegrated. I realize that a M without a strong foundation of friendship could never be a truly loving M. I told her I now understand how frustrating it must have been for her all these years telling me this over and over without me truly understanding what the meaning was, b/c I never was clear about this shortcoming of mine. I always reacted by feeling I was a great husband and I had no idea where this was coming from. I told her in a way, I owed her a 'thank you' for dropping this bomb and helping me open my eyes to an area where I have an opportunity to greatly improve as a person, which I was previously ignorant of.
I told her I understand she does not feel in love with me anymore, and I take full responsibility for that. I have made peace with the current situation and don't have any feelings of resentment, blame, or depression.
I told W that I don't have any expectation that she will love me again, however since she told me she does not want to separate or divorce right now (which she stated during this convo), then I had a suggestion of a direction if she was interested in hearing it at this time, and if not, no big deal. W affirmed she was curious to hear it.
I suggested that I have detached from whether or not she will ever fall back in love with me, however if she does not simply want to live as roommates and keep things status quo, I suggest we start focusing on becoming friends. No expectations of love, physical affection, no guarantees, no commitments as to what the future might hold, nothing. Just simply allocate some time to spend together, regularly, building a friendship, where we are only focused on us and our friendship.
She cried and reached out to squeeze my hand (first physical contact initiated by her in 4 MONTHS), and tearfully told me that "this was the most impactful conversation we have ever had in our 16 year relationship", and she was totally on board with my suggestion.
WIN!
So, I'm pushing the sadness etc. aside and I truly am OK with the BD of ILYBNILWY. I can understand how our current state came to be, from lack of continuing to nurture and cultivate our friendship, and I am taking full ownership for that. It doesn't matter that she could have initiated that as well. It's irrelevant. The point is, I understand, and that understanding, in itself, created a connection with her.
Now I can 'take one to tango' in taking the lead in creating actions which will include spending quality time together and simply working on creating a meaningful friendship. It may or may not result in her eventually feeling in love with me (heck she very well might change her mind and decide she doesn't want to even be friends!) but that doesn't matter so much right now. At least we are on the same page currently, and have established a connection as a starting point.
My plan is to try to be a bit unpredictable in making plans for us to spend time together. Not trying too hard to impress her or 'date', but just to create a space for a friendship to flourish. It will be lighthearted and I will not dwell on R talk, unless she wants to. I hope I can become best friends with my W, and I'm going to make that my mission, but one step at a time.
One lesson learned is that this kind of talking with her is effectively a 180 for me (one I had not thought of, but just occurred organically). Normally I would listen, and offer to 'fix' a complaint she had. I was never understanding the actual complaint at it's fundamental level.
I have another DB coaching session next week, and the topic will be: how to turn W into a pursuer. I know it could be a long road, but I'm prepared to be as patient as necessary.
BTW the Yoga class worked. She asked me if I had signed up for it to meet other girls. I told her no, that I signed up for it b/c I wanted to try something she was passionate about, and that if I liked it perhaps we could integrate that as an activity together to help build the friendship. She couldn't have reacted more positively! W loved that and said she couldn't believe what she was hearing.
Today I went to the Yoga class, and she called me afterward asking all about it and suggesting that we do a class together later this week or next. I'm feeling like I'm on the right track, and I remain cautiously optimistic.
All of this sounds like good progress - assuming she is not having an A. Of course, nothing is linear so dont expect anything to happen to change her feelings anytime soon. She has been checked out for at least several years - it could very well take years of work for her to check back in.
However, all of this flies out the window if she is having an A - you are just friend-zoning yourself - which is exactly what she would want. Im sorry to say, but from my experience and from what you described, I would be absolutely shocked if she is not having an affair.
This is why I respectfully disagree with some of the advice to not check for an affair. If she is, no matter what you do, she will never come back to you until her affair is over. Sure, some people drive themselves crazy snooping - but I think its worse to drive yourself crazy trying to win over a spouse if it later turns out they were cheating the whole time. Its your decision to make, but in my practice - that is what I see far to often.
that's a good point, fade. I guess I just wasn't certain if having an A would make any difference in whether or not I wanted to try to restore the R. However, your post has made me paranoid now so I will do some investigation.
I dont want to freak you out and make you paranoid. But honestly - her behavior as you describe it is absolutely full of red flags for an affair - not to mention that text to her therapist.
I think it is very prudent to know the reality of your relationship. Definitely some people take it too far and read all and everything and it never stops. But based on my experience I have never once seen a WW actually try to recover her marriage while she is still actively in an affair, and I hate to see BH's kill themselves trying. That's the kind of thing that usually leads to a very messy divorce.
First of all, no matter what I would suggest you right now start keeping a daily journal/log of your involvement with the kids and family. When you were home, what you did with the kids. Document that you are at least the 50% parent.
Then I would suggest you pick a finite but appropriate period of time to snoop - ie a few weeks or when you think something may be more likely (during her next business trip, when you are gone etc) and do a thorough job.
Spend some time doing your research on what and how to do this. Among my clients, I would say the most successful techniques are retrieving deleted text or texting app messages, a Sony VAR under the drivers seat, and a phone keylogger. Google each of these and you will find step-by-step instructions.
If you don't find anything in this period, then stop looking and stop worrying about an A, at least until another red flag shows up. Its hard to prove a negative, but if you cast a wide net and dont find anything, you should feel more at ease.
However if you do find something, the hard part is you should not immediately confront her. And never reveal your sources. You need to make sure you have enough evidence to know everything you will need to know - when, where, how. How long has it been going on? who is the guy, where is he? Does he have a wife or girl friend? A criminal record? Has she spent any money on this? Is she planning to leave, or set you up? Is she breaking any laws or company policies? And you need to do your homework - consult a men's rights attorney right away to know your rights and what to do and what not to do to protect yourself and your kids. Find out if you are you in an at-fault jurisdiction, find out if the judges in your area will consider adultery in asset division or alimony - even in no-fault states, its a rare judge that wont be swayed by this.
I sincerely hope you dont find anything, but I think its always best to know the truth.
W confessed to a few EAs over the last 2 yrs. only three were 'meaningful' and 2 of those lasted about 3 months each. The longest, and most recent started in May and she cut it off about 2 weeks ago, after it had progressed to physical - only kissed one time only during meeting for lunch, in a car (according to her - who knows what to believe). That supposedly prompted her to cut things off and schedule MC with me. Others were all cut off because "it was getting to the point where the guys were confessing they were in love" and she decided it had gone too far.
Obviously, I'm devastated and disappointed. Never knew she had capacity for this.
W says she doesn't want me to leave her. Doesn't want to separate. Wants me to consider having an 'open marriage' / polyamory. WHAT!?!?!? so overwhelming to get this all at once. W seems to believe she is not meant to be monogamous for life, but she seems really confused - like having a MLC or Identity Crisis. W feels a need to seek attention & emotional connections from multiple OM.
W is scared I will hate her and leave her after learning this. I told her I'm not interested in punishing her and I'm glad she was finally honest. I will not up and leave, but suggest that if all cards are on the table to try to regain a connection to see where the relationship wants to go, prior to even discussing my thoughts on an open marriage.
We spent the whole weekend together, in deep conversations and just being together and trying to comfort each other. It was brutal but also good in that we both felt connected for the first time in years. My reaction was such a 180 from what W expected, she cannot believe it and has expressed sincere remorse for her deception and actions, and gratitude for the way I'm handling it.
After 3 days of intensive conversation & being together, she says she is beginning to feel love for me again -- I have been "incredibly understanding" and she feels like she had convinced herself that she didn't need me, but is realizing now that feelings are resurfacing that she really does.
I expressed it will take quite a bit of time for me to regain any trust, so I am taking everything she says with a grain of salt. Thus far she seems genuine in her intent. I'm just taking it one day at a time here, and trying to give it a chance.
Of course my friends all say 'leave her' but I still love her and want to protect my children from trauma unless it's absolutely necessary. If there's any hope to rebuild, I'd like to explore that before throwing in the towel.
Going to be a long tough road ahead but I have to say I'm so thankful that things are drastically changing - regardless of whether we split or stay together. I just couldn't go on the way it was prior - feeling so detached - and now understanding why.....she wasn't letting me fully in on her 'double life' and therefore neither of us could ever feel fully connected as long as deception and lies were going on.
Yes it's true I'm not sure who I'm married to and am basically trying to start over, creating a friendship at first and cautiously seeing where things go. I have a strange mix of depressive feelings of betrayal, and happy feelings to finally be on the same side of the table with totally open communication the last few days.
This will leave a lifetime scar, but I am following the advice in DR regarding forgiveness, and remain cautiously hopeful.
Im sorry to hear that.
Dont believe a thing she says. I seriously doubt she had these guys professing love without getting sex. I've never seen that happen.
Being "understanding" is probably the worst thing you can do in your situation. Reconciliation never works unless a WW has to, and chooses to work for it.
Wow, I've just read your thread. How are things going now?
So much of this sounds like what I am going through in my own sitch. I'm not as far into this process as you are, but the similarities are uncanny.
What led your wife to finally opening up to you about the truth?
W seems to believe she is not meant to be monogamous for life
After that statement you're a much better man than I am. That statement would be the end for me. I'd move on without a second thought. I truly hope it's some temporary insanity on her part and not how she really feels.
an update. it's been awhile since I posted.
After WW confessed As on 9/4/15 we attended MC for nearly 5 months. during this time she went back and forth about whether or not she wanted to rebuild, but largely did not show any major efforts. She would show efforts for a brief time and then get derailed. I finally realized that MC would be ineffective if she was uncertain about her goal and unwilling to implement what we had been learning. I followed the advice in Tim Tedder's article:
Winning Back Your Wayward Spouse and gave her a letter similar to the example he provides in the article, and stated I'd no longer be attending MC as it was ineffective if she refused to implement or have a common goal. I'm now in a 'letting go' phase and will wait another month. At that point it will be 6 months from Dday. If she is still indecisive, I will ask her to move out. I have not exposed her As to any of her family and I have been forgiving and patient, but a decision needs to be made and only she can make it. It's been a really tough 5 months. I somehow found the strength to forgive her from the beginning, be positive, and even comfort her during periods of her grieving the loss of her AP (which was extremely difficult for me to do, but I did). She has gone NC w AP but I know she's not completely over it and therefore cannot legitimately focus on rebuilding marriage or helping me heal from the trauma. She is going to individual therapy and doing some things to focus on her own personal improvements, so that is positive. Now that I'm letting go and lovingly detached, she claims this is causing further distance. She's almost putting the responsibility on me to be loving and attentive so she feels she can lean in to a closer connection with me. I've been doing that now for well over a year, since before she confessed, with basically no change. Therefore I'm going 180 and will see what happens. Right now there's very little talk or communication going on. I told her my heart is open to her once she figures out what she wants and can be single-minded in the steps to get there. Until then, I must be more attentive to things that help me move forward in a healthy way.
I'm now in a 'letting go' phase and will wait another month.
She has gone NC w AP but I know she's not completely over it and therefore cannot legitimately focus on rebuilding marriage or helping me heal from the trauma.
I dont understand the reasoning for setting this one month time limit. How can you "let go" and at the same time be trying to control the timing? What if it takes her 45 more days to "get over it"? or 60? Is it worth ending things early because she might be on a different time scale?
Im not saying having her move out is a bad idea necessarily. But I dont understand why you are setting a date based on an arbitrary time since BD.
Azzork let's be clear it's a 6 month time limit, not a 1 month. It will have been 6 months since confession. I have given grace for this long with an expectation not for full repair, but rather a decision on whether or not WW wants to repair & grow the marriage, or whether she would rather not given her infidelities.
And let's also be clear that deadlines are not set in stone, and can be changed at any time. If I begin to see progress in her gaining certainty of a decision, I can always decide to wait longer.
Asking her to move out is not 'ending things early' in my opinion. I understand she might be on a different time scale, however my health is also important.
Many experts in the field suggest having a certain date in mind (again see the article linked in my prior post), which can always be subject to change, by which you would like to have a mutual agreement on whether or not you are going to make effort to reconcile and grow, or not. I forgave her day 1 and have been clear in my goal to restore and grow the M. She has continuously waffled.
I believe, for my personal situation, if there is still ambivalence on the part of the WW after 6 months since BD, a different approach is required. In my case, that approach will be physical separation with an open door when she's ready to make a decision.
if there is still ambivalence on the part of the WW after 6 months since BD, a different approach is required.
What is so special about the "6 months" timeline? What do you think you will gain by enforcing a physical separation in one month vs. doing it today?
My point is that I believe that your boundaries should be based on her actions towards you, not based on an arbitrary unit of time. You say that she has been waffling continuously for the past 5 months; why would think that there would be something different this month?
I think that by setting this time limit, you are setting yourself up for failure. But, Im not an expert. Thats just my opinion.
i have not told her about this time limit, it's simply something i've said to myself. If her actions toward me do not show a commitment to repairing the marriage, then I certainly can't expect to repair it on my own. Experts say to let the dust settle for 'a time' and then reassess.
that said, i'm open to advice. could you be more specific about boundaries based on her actions towards me? what specifically would you suggest in such a situation?
i have not told her about this time limit, it's simply something i've said to myself. If her actions toward me do not show a commitment to repairing the marriage, then I certainly can't expect to repair it on my own. Experts say to let the dust settle for 'a time' and then reassess.
that said, i'm open to advice. could you be more specific about boundaries based on her actions towards me? what specifically would you suggest in such a situation?
Hello Rambler,
I'm glad that time limit has been for yourself and not something you have imposed on her. Since it is for yourself, no harm in extending it, right?
Patience is critical in your situation. You asked about boundaries and wanting specific suggestions. What has your DB Coach said regarding this?
Please call me at 303-444-7004 if you would like to schedule a session with your DB Coach.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004