Last thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2594812#Post2594812Not even sure what to put in here a summary at this point, though my journey continues.
My take at the moment is this:
BD was not a gift although there have been innumerable gifts within it. The lessons keep coming, each wrapped with it's own unique flavor of pain. DB'ing has very little to do with my M and everything to do with how I exist internally and relate to people.
It's the craziest adventure I've ever been on and wouldn't trade it for the world. Although part of me would trade it all to have my W back. But then I wouldn't. That should make sense to anyone that's been at this longer than a few months.
My W has asked for a D and has told me that she will be contacting a lawyer this week. She's also opened up more than at any time in the last 8 months allowing me to see my dog and have access to her house.
Time is my friend. My excruciating friend.
My life has changed so many times and ways since BD that I'm not even sure who I am any more. However, I like this version so much more than the man I was in my M. We're going to be pals.
The only constant seems to be change so I'm still taking things day by day, trying to learn as much as possible, breathe as much as possible, and stay open to the limitless possibilities that exist. Learning seems to be key.
Without this board I would be completely lost so if you're reading this, you have my sincere thanks. Especially Wonka.
If any of you are struggling with addiction and or substance use, please post about it here and I'll do my best to help you.
Let the journey continue wherever it may take all of us.
PP
PP Taking this from tkds thread ...
First step for me in this area was ... I took a weekend to myself, signed up for a motorcycle class. Met early, we did the written and riding portions that weekend. I went to DMV and got my Motorcycle licensee ... something I always wanted to do but allowed people to tell me no. This was for ME. Was seriously out of character ... doing something solely for yourself when you have made everyone else a priority is a very uncomfortable thing.
Later on ... I bought a Harley ... my Birthday present to myself. I will never forget it, once I signed the papers all the sales people and employees cranked up a Harley, rev'd em, honked horns, customers all clapped and applauded as I was welcomed into the family ... I had tears ... was up there for me because I finally broke free and was my own man ... first time in my life at 42 years old.
I am not saying go out and buy a bike, .... but I am saying you need to make some goals and list how you will get there. Remember .. these are about YOU ... things in your control. I had about 4 key areas I worked on .. little by little ... took a solid year but I really made some serious changes and improvements and continue to do so. The big picture of this is .. .your W needs to respect you but its impossible when you have lost that respect for yourself, that self esteem, mojo, all that you have slowly lost over the years ...doing what you just admitted "I let their actions dictate mine. I have spent much of my life trying to keep everyone around me happy at the expense of my mental health."
Get that Goal list going .. post it here so we can help you stay at it.
So many great points in there Cali. I'm just starting to see why this process of change is so long and how deep we have to go to make things stick. You're right, a year is just the beginning. We're not changing habits and behavioral patterns, but changing ourselves to the core.
That takes a lot of deep introspection, and then a some serious practice.
Thanks for writing all of that.
PP
I think you are starting to see it from the sounds of it.
In hindsight I do think for an LBH its a slow process of having things stripped away, sacrifices we make for our W, for our M and our families that in time remove who we are little by little. I do think this plays into it more than one would think, and getting ourselves back is a very long slow process but a very necessary one. Its a myth to think we can be that same old person W fell for .... I do think we can bring enough of 'that guy' and pair him with the new and improved guy and figure out just who we are and what we want .... this has nothing to do with our WAS. If they see the changes great, still .. we still have to become dependent and secure enough to think about what it is WE want out of all this.
For me .. at this point .. I feel like I was handed a new life, a better life .... one I am not going to just give up, I appreciate this new gift, and I strive to continue to make improvements everyday.
Thanks Cali. I really do appreciate your replies on here, they're always spot on and chalked full of wisdom.
Writing my post this morning was a different experience. It's the sixth start of a new thread and the one that has the least about my W and our situation. I almost didn't mention it but felt like that was the point of being here so I should put something.
What I really thought about writing was, "Who knows what my WAW is going to do so I'm not going to mention it, but here's all the cool stuff that I'm learning and doing!"
That's definitely a shift.
Yesterday I had a business appraiser value the business I'm selling to my partner and it was a number that I was pleased with. Nothing to retire on, but it honestly made me sit down and think "Do you want to take all of next year off and travel? Was there a time in your life when you haven't wanted to do that but didn't because 'it just wasn't the right time'? What would be the worst thing that could come of a year completely removed from your life? What could be some of the best things?"
It was equally exhilarating and terrifying. I started listing teachers, countries and experiences that could be included. Of course I got upset for a second about the fact it would be that much more amazing if my W could come with, but then put her out of my mind. She could come with me, she's choosing not to be a part of my amazing adventure at the moment though. Doesn't mean I can't do it.
And yes, I'm still walking around in a cloud of mind blown-ness over yesterday's revelation - people live in their own realities, there is absolutely no reason to try to convince them of mine. This is especially true of spouses. Kerpow!!!
PP
Want to see if anyone thinks this could be a bad idea. I just reached out to my ex GF. We've been broken up for over 7 years, were together for 5, and have seen each other at random places a few times since then and have been happy to see each other and fill each other in on family etc. We both live in the same town.
I have no feelings for her. She has no feelings for me. She's happily married with two little kids and has been with her husband since about six months after breaking up with me. As far as I can tell she loves her life. We had a lot of fun together but both realized that we didn't want to marry each other. All break ups have pain so we didn't speak for about two years, but there were no hard feelings.
She's agreed to have lunch with me, one to catch up on life, and two, because I've asked her to share what it was like to be in a relationship with me. What was hard, what were the easy parts. What advice would she give me as an ex?
My thought is that she's well far enough removed to be completely honest, and I could get some insight into what else to keep working on.
Bad idea? Not something to add into the mix with DB'ing?
Or go for it, STFU and listen with an open mind?
PP
Interesting
I do admire the internal work approach you are taking here. She might have some insight ... albeit 7+ years removed. I would imagine you have grown a git since then but possibly might be a stone or two you could look under.
I would be curious to see what perspective she might shed
Good idea to get some insight on yourself!
But Id be pissed if I were her husband to be honest, but that's just me, I apologize if I'm being too blunt after all this is YOUR incredible Journey, make it last!
I am also expecting my papers to come soon, but I'm no longer in fear. Change is inevitable.
I appreciate the honesty ILYNOT. Her husband is fine with it as far as I know. She told me she talked to him and he has no problem with us meeting. I've met him before and have met her kids, we were together a long time ago.
Sorry to hear about the papers, Azzork likes to say that it means nothing. My W has been living elsewhere for 8 months, what does the paperwork mean at this point?
It usually means we've placed a lot of hope in something that really means little. The state is the only one that's really concerned about our marital status. My W took her ring off 5 days after leaving, that lets me know what she thinks of our marital status.
Paper is paper, I've got work to do on myself.
PP
PP,
There's more to discover about yourself. It is a constant on-going project, isn't it?
Aren't you going to text W briefly to see if you are able to pick up Woofie this weekend? Remember she said she'd leave the key for you to enter her place if she's out. Is this still your weekend plan?
Hi Wonka,
Thank you for checking in on me. W told me she'd let me know about this weekend. She has a friend coming in to stay with her they're leaving for an event on Sunday. I don't have a chance to grab him until noon that day.
She told me she'd let me know when she heard from the other woman. So far I haven't reached out to check in on yet. Would you recommend that I do so? Or wait for her to reach out to me.
My plan was to wait until Saturday morning and reach out to her then if I hadn't heard from her before.
Thank you again,
PP
Had a great call with my DB coach this morning. He kept saying "Something in your W has shifted as she went from not wanting to see you and talk to you to wanting to see you and talk to you."
Said to not beat myself up for laughing about Woofie's spirituality even though "laughing at your W may not have been what we recommend in DB". Damn it. He told me it was a great opportunity to show her that I know when I make mistakes and learn from them.
My focus for the next month is to use the dog swapping as a way to show her my changes, not to try to kick the door open that she's opened a crack, and to make sure I'm taking extra care of myself so that when we do have the limited interactions that we will have that they're positive.
He left me with the thought of "It's A Wonderful Life" and the Nicholas Cage movie depicting a similar scenario. That at the end the main character has seen little change in his external circumstances but his internal life is entirely different.
This was in response to my fear that taking a year off and traveling would somehow set me back in my external life.
Good call, got me refocused for the day and the upcoming weeks.
Stay the course, keep on DB principles. Be authentic with my interactions with my W, and continue to learn.
Hope everyone has a peaceful Friday.
PP
PP
I did whisper 'yes' to the offer of help.
offer accepted with thanks If it's not possible it's ok.
V
Thank you for your help, my health elf.
V
Taking a year off to travel sounds wonderful. Even as a choice to think about sounds wonderful.
Your much farther down the this path then I am so I am not sure I can offer any advice except be well be strong.
Was your pen name chosen in tribute to Ronald McKernan, also known as Pigpen? He was a founding member of the Grateful Dead. I love his work.
Was your pen name chosen in tribute to Ronald McKernan, also known as Pigpen? He was a founding member of the Grateful Dead. I love his work.
Thanks Mutatio, my pen name actually came from my lack of doing laundry in college, but saying it was from Ronald Mckernan is much cooler sounding...
Happy Monday Morning DB'ers. Let's see what this week brings for all of us...
My weekend was great, spent most of it with a meditation group and then speaking about the experience with the rest of the people there. It was not the classical meditation that I am used to but had a theme. I chose to meditate on my issue with trust, especially trust around women and my W.
I got a lot of insight into the fear I had around her ability to hurt me as I felt that it had happened so often prior to us getting married. This made me not believe her when she told me about her own experiences and I ran anything that had the possibility of being negative through the lens that it was just an excuse for her to potentially leave me. Was not a strong position to live from and is something I'm going to speak more with my IC about.
No dog pick up this weekend, our schedules didn't match up but my W told me she'd be back in my town this week and wanted to drop him off to me then. When I told her that wasn't a problem at all she said she was relieved as she had expected me not to trust that she wasn't just trying to keep him from me a bit longer! How apropos given the theme of the mediation sessions.
She also asked if I would share with her some of my experiences of the weekend. I'm not sure how to do without it sounding like pursuit as it relates to our past together and my coming to understand how I could have done it better. Zues has talked about couching things as "how I will act in my next relationship". I also believe that in DB we're supposed to let our WAW's do most of the talking.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Here's to a good week for everyone.
PP
I know that my H has asked me before about some of the things that I have done to keep doing well, even with what he's doing to me. (And yes, he has said that) I tend to just tell him it in generalities and will recommend a book to him or a site. Then I detach and let him take what he wants from my experience.
Does that make sense?
E
PP if asked be truthful, be truthful about:
Your reflections on YOUR life
How you feel about Woofie
The experience of meditation and how you have done this
Your health and wellbeing
The joys in your life
Then expect reciprocation, use humour
V
Hey PigPen. I'm not on solid footing so I deleted the post I was writing. Just know I'm rooting for you.
I know that my H has asked me before about some of the things that I have done to keep doing well, even with what he's doing to me. (And yes, he has said that) I tend to just tell him it in generalities and will recommend a book to him or a site. Then I detach and let him take what he wants from my experience.
Does that make sense?
E
Makes senses, thanks Elly. I'm not sure what she wants to know about the weekend, she asked what theme I sat with and I told her that it was trust. She said she'd like to hear more about my experience when we meet next.
PP if asked be truthful, be truthful about:
Your reflections on YOUR life
How you feel about Woofie
The experience of meditation and how you have done this
Your health and wellbeing
The joys in your life
Then expect reciprocation, use humour
V
Thank you V, this was very helpful. I keep having to tell myself to stick to DB principles. That this isn't an opportunity to vent to her that whether I trusted her or not, she still left...
I'll share what I learned, and how it effects my current life, not about how our M was. Very good reminder V.
PP
Hey PigPen. I'm not on solid footing so I deleted the post I was writing. Just know I'm rooting for you.
Thank you Z, appreciate you dropping by. Hope your footing gets better my friend.
Stay strong.
PP
Oh, I just meant I wasn't sure how to handle this exactly. I'd maybe figure out the most profound part of it, give it to her in a way that had been filtered of any connection with your failed M and left her wanting to know a bit more, then tell her you're still processing quite a bit too. That's my best shot. Let me know how it goes!
Thanks Z, that's great advice. I'm still filtering everything through my M, and how it effected my M. I also want to talk to my W about all of that.
It's a mix of defending myself, blame, accepting blame, and explanation. It's also clearly a sign that I have a lot more detaching to do. I thought a lot about your post last night and how I can share my experience of the weekend without tying it in at all to our M. That's not "hard" to do, but will necessitate my ego staying out of it, and the part of me that still wants us to end up back together.
Detaching is such a challenge, and has so many darn layers to it.
I spoke with my IC yesterday extensively on what we project into our experiences, into our M's, into our our partners, and into our lives. He asked me to write out everything that I hope to "get out of" next year, what I believe I will experience and how that would shape and change me. He told me those are the things I need to bring into my life no matter what.
He had asked me to do the same about my W, what did I "need" from her - unconditional love, support, a sense of fun, of limitless possibilities. Now that she's gone, how to create those experiences and feelings in my own life.
The journey continues, yet again I see why all of this takes so much time and how foolish it was to think that a two week break and some hard decisions about sobriety would solve everything.
May everyone on here find 5 minutes of meditative peace today.
PP
PP
I know for me, all that 'self work' while some was ties into the M and mistakes I made ... the core stuff was things about me that not only affected my M, but also other relationships.
I lean more towards being a bit mysterious about what you learned, what you are dealing with ... one could even just tell the W the DB go-to "I have been making some progress, I am happy with the results thus far, I still have some ways to go ... given the chance I would do several things differently" .... if prodded then you can just list one or two things you would do differently in your M ... this is all YOUR perspective on yourself that might align up with legit complaints she had. None of this is aimed towards her, nor your M per-say ... just self reflective stuff. The less details you give, the more she can think about it and connect her own dots.
Sounds like your IC is on the ball ... it truly is all about YOU right now.
PP,
I am with V on giving W some generalities on the theme. The key here is NOT to make it all about the M or W. You would want to be judicious with how much you share with W given that you two have had no contact for 4 months. Do this in dribbles as you two will need to re-build a friendship.
You don't scare away a new friend by getting too intense or deep, right? Same with W. She is a new friend that you've just met two weekends ago and starting from square 1. With that mind set, I think you'll do fine.
You are not trying to get inside her pants!!
PP
I know for me, all that 'self work' while some was ties into the M and mistakes I made ... the core stuff was things about me that not only affected my M, but also other relationships.
I lean more towards being a bit mysterious about what you learned, what you are dealing with ... one could even just tell the W the DB go-to "I have been making some progress, I am happy with the results thus far, I still have some ways to go ... given the chance I would do several things differently" .... if prodded then you can just list one or two things you would do differently in your M ... this is all YOUR perspective on yourself that might align up with legit complaints she had. None of this is aimed towards her, nor your M per-say ... just self reflective stuff. The less details you give, the more she can think about it and connect her own dots.
Sounds like your IC is on the ball ... it truly is all about YOU right now.
Thanks Cali, I appreciate this. I'm still trying to make it about her and my reactions to her. That not only takes the focus off of me, but will inevitably feel like pressure for her. I can't make it about her without her feeling like there is some expectation of "now that I've figured it out....what do you think?"
I'll keep it about me and keep it minimal. DB'ing is still not my default mode of operating yet, but it's getting there.
Thank you.
PP
PP,
I am with V on giving W some generalities on the theme. The key here is NOT to make it all about the M or W. You would want to be judicious with how much you share with W given that you two have had no contact for 4 months. Do this in dribbles as you two will need to re-build a friendship.
You don't scare away a new friend by getting too intense or deep, right? Same with W. She is a new friend that you've just met two weekends ago and starting from square 1. With that mind set, I think you'll do fine.
That's a great way to view it Wonka, you're right. Approaching her as a new friend as opposed to someone I need to bulldoze over with all of my new found knowledge is much healthier.
It also lets her continue to have her subjective reality, not force mine onto her, while giving her the continued space that she's still asking for.
You are not trying to get inside her pants!!
Yea...um...(censored)...I'd be willing to chew my entire right arm off. Completely off. Without stopping. And smile all the way through the process...
PP
I am swinging the lead today!
And you are thinking pants and right arms? Hmmmmmm
If you can find a couple of slightly amusing breezy anecdotes that would be good. Your tummy rumbling at a serious bit, in the meditation. The yogis green and black mismatched socks. The spelling mistakes in the pamphlet. That sort of stuff.
V
so the choice is right arm vs. coffee hmmmmm
PP,
I am with V on giving W some generalities on the theme. The key here is NOT to make it all about the M or W. You would want to be judicious with how much you share with W given that you two have had no contact for 4 months. Do this in dribbles as you two will need to re-build a friendship.
You don't scare away a new friend by getting too intense or deep, right? Same with W. She is a new friend that you've just met two weekends ago and starting from square 1. With that mind set, I think you'll do fine.
This!
You are not trying to get inside her pants!!
Yet.
Journaling a bit for sanity:
I had to attend a meeting today in another town, was extremely excited for the meeting as it was with someone who is doing exactly what I want to do in the next phase of my business life. He was so generous with his time and expertise.
But the meeting was also in the town where my W and I would go for several getaways during the year. I drove by the hotel we would always stay at, the restaurant we would eat at and even drove by the property where we held our wedding ceremony.
I was nauseous for the first 30 minute of the meeting until I forgot about it all and then had it all come rushing back in on the drive home. All of those fond memories, all of the innocence of thinking this would be the rest of my life, all of it was just so hard to bare. I'm in a total funk now and am going to try to shake it off with a tough workout and a walk on the beach to clear my head.
Such a shame that things are where they are given how many good times we had together and how many laughs we shared.
I'm a bummed out PP.
PP
Sorry PP. I know how sad and upsetting it can be to come across reminders like wedding spot or other places you used to enjoy. Having one of those days myself. Today, I am so flipping mad (and sad) at my H for doing this to us even though I am also to blame.
Enjoy your workout and try to move on to thinking about the positives in your life today. Tomorrow is a different day.
Hugs,
BT
Just picked up Woofie for his two week visit! He jumped up and licked my face and made a big production of seeing me which warmed my heart. I'm extremely excited to have my buddy back for a while.
My W came to drop him off while I was at work which wasn't what I had planned so I was a little thrown off by her being here. She used to be a huge part of my business but hasn't been back here since she left in January.
We spoke only very briefly, nothing about the meditation weekend or about how we were doing. She gave me a quick report on Woofie, and also told me my in laws will be moving tomorrow morning. I was hoping to see my nieces before they moved as they were also a big part of my life but have been absent since BD. I asked if I could swing by and see them before tomorrow but she told me everyone would be too busy.
We exchanged a quick hug and she was off. Definitely weird to me still to have such quick emotionless exchanges. This whole situation is still so surreal.
Just got a text from my W:
"There is a little weirdness on your face as I was leaving. Everything ok?"
I guess I wasn't as PMA and smooth as I hoped. I think being in work mode and then W mode didn't let me DB as well I had planned.
Any thoughts on a response?
Just got a text from my W:
"There is a little weirdness on your face as I was leaving. Everything ok?"
I guess I wasn't as PMA and smooth as I hoped. I think being in work mode and then W mode didn't let me DB as well I had planned.
Any thoughts on a response?
Seems like she is mind-reading .... I would pop back with a fun light TM "Must have been the Woofie Drool on my face
.. no weirdness, thanks for bringing him by!"
I would not make much of it ... spin it to your favor.
Awesome Cali, thank you very much!
PP
Enjoy those two weeks with Woofie
"Of course there was weirdness on my face. For 5 years you would come to my office and pick up Woofie, drop him off, or just visit with all of us. You'd laugh with me, you'd joke with my coworkers and clients, you'd participate in our events and were friends with everyone here. Many of them were at our wedding, we've attended many of there's. Your best friend is my client's wife! You were a daily part of this community and you haven't been here for 8 and a half months.
The guy in the parking lot that you hugged when you got here, remember him? He's the guy that lived with for the entire month leading up to BD because he'd just broken up with his girlfriend. Remember all of the conversations you and I had about relationship because he was staying with us? Remember how we both agreed that we were lucky that ours was solid so we would never have to go through another break up? Remember that? That was 10 days before BD!
Thanks for telling me you were hungover from drinking too much at dinner out with another guy last night too, that was a nice jab in my day. Appreciate you letting me know.
So yes, there may be some weirdness for me to see you dropping off Woofie here and then getting in your car and leaving. Yes it's weird that I'm not allowed to see the two little girls that were a daily part of my life before they move across the country.
Yes, there's weirdness on my face, that's what it looks like when I'm trying to mask more pain and heartache than I know what to do with behind a smile.
How the (censored) can I not have a weird look on my face?"
That's the text I sent to my W after she left.
That is, it's the one I sent in my head before writing our Cali's response and numbly hitting the send button.
Back to enjoying my pup and keeping time on my side.
Enjoy those two weeks with Woofie
Thanks Fogg, he's going to live on steak, bacon, and the most expensive meats I can feed him!
We're going to live like kings for two weeks!
PP
Nice. Steak, bacon and expensive meats. The only thing missing is some coffee at the local dog park LOL
*(just not for you)*
Nice. Steak, bacon and expensive meats. The only thing missing is some coffee at the local dog park LOL
*(just not for you)*
Ha! I've told him it's open season on anything in the neighborhood he can get his paws on. I may live vicariously through him for the time I have him!
PP,
There's been a real movement in your sitch since the Woofie email exchanges for the better.
Let's review what forward movements has taken place since the email exchanges:
-got two weeks with Woofie
-got a hug from W
-she went INSIDE your office which was a first since January
-sharing a bit about the In-laws
ALL GOOD!
The only goof is asking to see the nieces. That's a big no-no. It's a case of too much, too soon. Remember that this is a new friend you've just met. Dial down the intensity, bud.
All in all, this was a fabulous baby step for W and you.
You might to treat yourself some nice filet mignon.
Thanks Wonka, I appreciate you coming on and helping me out. It's hard to see the positives from my end, but your post helped immensely.
I understand about the nieces in hind site. They unfortunately are moving out of the state with my BIL and SIL tomorrow morning, and I miss them so much. But you are right, tonight is also my W's last night with them and I tried to impose on that. Lesson learned.
Thank you again for all of your guidance, it doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.
PP
PP I can feel your pain through the screen. It is so tough some days to follow DBing and not answer like would like to. I get that too at times. "Is any wrong?" drives me nuts. No nothing is wrong except you are abandoning our M, friendship, and oh yea, your son. Everything is hunky dory!
Sigh. Back to the regular programming. PMA. PMA. PMA.
Huge *hugs*!
E
Look at the question if anything is wrong in another way. Some of us are the ones asking our Ss, but our Ss are not asking us if something is wrong. They might check us out to see if something is different (W gave me a quick up & down tonight when I got home that I don't think she was aware she was doing, but either doesn't register my mood or just doesn't really care all that much).
That there is some attention to your mood & needs is a good sign even if you have to bite your tongue on the answer. Reciprocation of concern and focus is a good thing. Of course, by itself it doesn't mean a significant change is occurring, but it still is a good sign.
In PP's case, there are some there are some other very good signs. It doesn't mean that a fundamental change is occurring (yet), but I read the asking if he was OK as a good, if frustrating, thing. And, he handled it well.
Dont know how rest of the post was lost!
All seems good to me......
Apart from the bit about the bacon, my dog Tigggy-puss, ( thought he was one of the cats) once ate a pack of raw bacon (the cat stole it for him from the work top) and I discovered dogs and bacon don't get on. He had nitrate poisoning.
Same dog that when W1 and I were bottling home made apple wine, unbeknown to us was licking up the spills and had a hang over. Tiggy-puss had a favourite cat and the two of them used to lie in his basket together, they were inseparable. She cleaned his ears for him. They were a tag team, I caught them once he had his paws on the pedal bin flip to keep the lid of the bin up whilst she fished inside the bin from the work top. They both travelled In the back seat of the car, curled up together. Inseparable, best friends and companions. That cat hardly ever left his side, they sat on window sills together basking in the sun. She was the first thing he went to after he'd been out. She ate from his bowl, yes, dog food and I know that's not good for cats, apart from her cat biscuits she ate first from his bowl whilst he waited for her to finish.
So I really understand about Woofie, Tiggy-puss was a great love even if I shared him with puss. When puss died he grieved greatly for her. He had lost the great love of his life. The cat never related to other cats or humans but she nurtured and groomed Tiggy-puss.
V
PP I can feel your pain through the screen. It is so tough some days to follow DBing and not answer like would like to. I get that too at times. "Is any wrong?" drives me nuts. No nothing is wrong except you are abandoning our M, friendship, and oh yea, your son. Everything is hunky dory!
Sigh. Back to the regular programming. PMA. PMA. PMA.
Huge *hugs*!
E
Thank you for the hug E. I guess it's our spouse's way of checking in with us in the only way that's safe for them. Or that they feel they can. On some level they know, they aren't complete psychopaths so they know.
Let's do our best to keep our PMA up as it effects us first and foremost.
Big hug back to you!
PP
Look at the question if anything is wrong in another way. Some of us are the ones asking our Ss, but our Ss are not asking us if something is wrong. They might check us out to see if something is different (W gave me a quick up & down tonight when I got home that I don't think she was aware she was doing, but either doesn't register my mood or just doesn't really care all that much).
That there is some attention to your mood & needs is a good sign even if you have to bite your tongue on the answer. Reciprocation of concern and focus is a good thing. Of course, by itself it doesn't mean a significant change is occurring, but it still is a good sign.
In PP's case, there are some there are some other very good signs. It doesn't mean that a fundamental change is occurring (yet), but I read the asking if he was OK as a good, if frustrating, thing. And, he handled it well.
This is a good way to look at it As. She didn't have to ask and check in. My mind reading still tells me that she's trying to make sure that I'm OK but only as it eases her of her own burden. My W has tried a few times to get me to agree that since there's been so much positive change in my life since she left that this was all a really great decision. I'm not there yet nor do I know if I ever will be.
Appreciate your thoughts on this though, you are right - she did ask.
PP
Dont know how rest of the post was lost!
All seems good to me......
Apart from the bit about the bacon, my dog Tigggy-puss, ( thought he was one of the cats) once ate a pack of raw bacon (the cat stole it for him from the work top) and I discovered dogs and bacon don't get on. He had nitrate poisoning.
Same dog that when W1 and I were bottling home made apple wine, unbeknown to us was licking up the spills and had a hang over. Tiggy-puss had a favourite cat and the two of them used to lie in his basket together, they were inseparable. She cleaned his ears for him. They were a tag team, I caught them once he had his paws on the pedal bin flip to keep the lid of the bin up whilst she fished inside the bin from the work top. They both travelled In the back seat of the car, curled up together. Inseparable, best friends and companions. That cat hardly ever left his side, they sat on window sills together basking in the sun. She was the first thing he went to after he'd been out. She ate from his bowl, yes, dog food and I know that's not good for cats, apart from her cat biscuits she ate first from his bowl whilst he waited for her to finish.
So I really understand about Woofie, Tiggy-puss was a great love even if I shared him with puss. When puss died he grieved greatly for her. He had lost the great love of his life. The cat never related to other cats or humans but she nurtured and groomed Tiggy-puss.
V
Tiggy-puss, this just made me laugh right out loud V!
Thank you for that.
PP
This is a good way to look at it As. She didn't have to ask and check in. My mind reading still tells me that she's trying to make sure that I'm OK but only as it eases her of her own burden. My W has tried a few times to get me to agree that since there's been so much positive change in my life since she left that this was all a really great decision. I'm not there yet nor do I know if I ever will be.
Appreciate your thoughts on this though, you are right - she did ask.
PP
I do find this type of response from the WAS strange, as like you said its one way for them to lift the guilt, justify their own actions .... The image of your spouse wrecking your Vintage Corvette, she is sorry she wrecked it but look with that insurance money you now have a new Truck. Most of us would prefer that old Vette which was irreplaceable. .... Hard to explain it to a non-car lover eh?
To compound this .. its almost adds some guilt for the LBS that DBing and reinventing themselves, doing better ... is working against them, as if one were a mess the WAS would say "Wow look at you, you are a mess, this is not working out lets work on the M" ... enough to make a person crazy .. oh wait ... to late for me.
This is a good way to look at it As. She didn't have to ask and check in. My mind reading still tells me that she's trying to make sure that I'm OK but only as it eases her of her own burden. My W has tried a few times to get me to agree that since there's been so much positive change in my life since she left that this was all a really great decision. I'm not there yet nor do I know if I ever will be.
Appreciate your thoughts on this though, you are right - she did ask.
PP
I do find this type of response from the WAS strange, as like you said its one way for them to lift the guilt, justify their own actions .... The image of your spouse wrecking your Vintage Corvette, she is sorry she wrecked it but look with that insurance money you now have a new Truck. Most of us would prefer that old Vette which was irreplaceable. .... Hard to explain it to a non-car lover eh?
To compound this .. its almost adds some guilt for the LBS that DBing and reinventing themselves, doing better ... is working against them, as if one were a mess the WAS would say "Wow look at you, you are a mess, this is not working out lets work on the M" ... enough to make a person crazy .. oh wait ... to late for me.
So true Cali, it makes no sense to me but I understand the underlying reasoning. My W told me right after BD that since she was beautiful, and my ex was beautiful, it meant I would attract another beautiful woman...I couldn't for the life of me figure out how that was supposed to make me feel better. I completely get the Corvette analogy. I love her, not her looks.
And your second point has been a big issue for me to overcome. When I started doing more GAL and feeling better about myself, the exact response was, "I know you're doing better now without me than you could with me, this is the Universe's way of telling us both that we should be D." For the next few weeks I just stayed home and kept to myself. It was like GAL'ing and DB'ing was going to directly lead to the D. It was giving her justification for it!
I get it now but that was a tough one to get through as well. She doesn't need justification. She can find externalities and tell me they're the justification but they aren't.
Thanks for stopping by.
PP
Hey PigPen. It can be very frustrating. My favorite is the statistic about how people 5 years after their D are happier then when they ended their marriage. Duh! The M was in a bad spot! What that neglects to mention is that people that stay in their M are happier 5 years later as well- AND STILL BLEEPING MARRIED!
So things going better being equated to justification for D can be a logical brain trick, and irritating to hear. But as long as you recognize that this is WAWs way of alleviating her guilt and justifying her decision then you can at least understand what's driving it and transcend that stuff.
The sad part is that there is some truth to the fact that things will get better post DB in a short term view. If you look at quality of life on a 1-3 year vantage point the D makes sense as it means you are 'free', you can date other people and have endorphin rushes, you can live in the fantasy of the potential of great things in your future...compare that to the hard agonizing work of piecing and dealing with your problems. The issue is that in the long view, the 10-50 year view, it's much better to work through those issues and have a durable and improved M than to run and start over, building a new faulty structure on top of a poor foundation of a broken family.
That's why this process takes so long and why so many sitch's never turn around. Most people don't have this view and it takes years for them to really get this. And many never do.
BT commented and I replied about how DB can keep us in denial and hold us back from reaching closure on our loss. I believe in standing for M, and DB road. But truly the M is over and it is unlikely to work out for any of us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't DB, do 180s for us, and continue to stand by our M...just that we should do that because it's what we believe and we want to be better people, not because we expect it to save our M. Be PP2.0 and be proud of your decisions, understand it probably won't matter, learn to accept that, and if your in the minority who's WAS comes out of the fog in the next couple of years you can figure it out from there. But there's no avoiding the loss, so stay on your road and continue to let go and move forward.
You may be right on the trying to assuage her guilt, but she still is feeling guilty because she recognizes that she is causing someone she still cares for pain. That is a good sign mixed in with a possibly bad sign. It still gives you a couple clues.
First, she still cares about you & she still is focused on you and paying attention. This is an opening to connect and build something (be it friendly relations, friendship, or something more). Also, she is watching & will see your 180s, your GAL, your detachment, your lack of pursuit, and this will have an impact on her. Where that will lead isn't clear, but when you make a change, you know that it will have some impact on your dynamic. That is a really good thing.
Second, if you get the vibe that she is assuaging her guilt, then you know she is still wanting space and that you need to keep away from any pursuing behavior and just keep your GAL & friendly detachment. Not time to start suggesting doing things together yet. Now, whether she actually feels this way is a hunch on your part, so you'll need other evidence to give you clues whether your hunch is being confirmed, unsupported, or really, really unclear. Nothing wrong with the cautious approach until you start getting real patterns of behavior that suggest otherwise.
I have to say that I think several of us who have chimed in have seen more positive signs that suggest that while she still may be in the mindset of sticking to her guns, that is taking some will power and there are some feelings (possibly not conscious to her yet) pulling her in the other direction.
Nothing for you to change really. You're doing well in your interactions for the most part. I understand wanting to have a skeptical outlook to avoid getting your hopes up and get hurt further, and of course you are there interacting with her & we are just reading your reports. Still, I'd be a little less pessimistic than you are given what you've told us.
Keep on keeping on.
So things going better being equated to justification for D can be a logical brain trick, and irritating to hear. But as long as you recognize that this is WAWs way of alleviating her guilt and justifying her decision then you can at least understand what's driving it and transcend that stuff.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't DB, do 180s for us, and continue to stand by our M...just that we should do that because it's what we believe and we want to be better people, not because we expect it to save our M. Be PP2.0 and be proud of your decisions, understand it probably won't matter, learn to accept that, and if your in the minority who's WAS comes out of the fog in the next couple of years you can figure it out from there. But there's no avoiding the loss, so stay on your road and continue to let go and move forward.
Thanks Zeus, this is how I feel at the moment. I believe on some level she feels bad. When we met three weeks ago she asked me if I knew "you aren't bad right, there's nothing wrong with you?" I was confused about the question but then remembered clearly her telling me that she was leaving me because I was "broken".
I always appreciate your stoicism. You're right, the statistics aren't in any of our favors. But, I truly believe that we will come out of this as better people if we stick to DB. If I get D or not, I have already learned a lifetime of relationship and communication lessons from Wonka alone, let alone from all of the other threads that I follow.
Thanks for stopping by.
PP
You may be right on the trying to assuage her guilt, but she still is feeling guilty because she recognizes that she is causing someone she still cares for pain. That is a good sign mixed in with a possibly bad sign. It still gives you a couple clues.
First, she still cares about you & she still is focused on you and paying attention. This is an opening to connect and build something (be it friendly relations, friendship, or something more). Also, she is watching & will see your 180s, your GAL, your detachment, your lack of pursuit, and this will have an impact on her. Where that will lead isn't clear, but when you make a change, you know that it will have some impact on your dynamic. That is a really good thing.
Second, if you get the vibe that she is assuaging her guilt, then you know she is still wanting space and that you need to keep away from any pursuing behavior and just keep your GAL & friendly detachment. Not time to start suggesting doing things together yet. Now, whether she actually feels this way is a hunch on your part, so you'll need other evidence to give you clues whether your hunch is being confirmed, unsupported, or really, really unclear. Nothing wrong with the cautious approach until you start getting real patterns of behavior that suggest otherwise.
I have to say that I think several of us who have chimed in have seen more positive signs that suggest that while she still may be in the mindset of sticking to her guns, that is taking some will power and there are some feelings (possibly not conscious to her yet) pulling her in the other direction.
Nothing for you to change really. You're doing well in your interactions for the most part. I understand wanting to have a skeptical outlook to avoid getting your hopes up and get hurt further, and of course you are there interacting with her & we are just reading your reports. Still, I'd be a little less pessimistic than you are given what you've told us.
Keep on keeping on.
Thanks As, I see the positive signs, I do. I'm also a bit jaded by my W. I believe what she's told me as far as what she wants. It's also not the first or second time she's told me this. I believe I'm at that place where I miss her, love her, but also look ahead at my life without her and think it's going to be fascinating.
I truly appreciate your completely outside perspective, nor do I believe I can look at my sitch objectively. I can see the points you mentioned, and positives that Wonka mentioned. Maybe I am just guarded against getting my hopes up.
So much of DB'ing seems to be giving yourself completely up to fate or a higher power. But doing so and then doing a hell of a lot of hard work here on the ground. Fate is going to decide whether that hard work will pay off in the form of reconciliation, and the only possibility of reconciliation exists if you do that hard work and leave the rest to fate. If that makes sense.
I'm in for the work. That's happening no matter what. I'm excited for it, and am completely turned on by learning all of this and using the little interactions I have with my W as learning experiences. I'm grateful for those opportunities in themselves. They are true nuggets of life wisdom that I wouldn't get otherwise.
Thanks for stopping by, I've made it to the cushion four mornings this week and am really digging the time down there.
Big hug,
PP
Yeah, I'm not saying I'm right, but for me hope was the devil. It just gets in the way of detachment.
I know, you could say it's a motivator for personal growth...but if we're really doing the growth for us we don't need that motivator. And the changes we make due to 'hope' are therefor the ones that aren't likely to sustain. Oh, we could go down the path of 'using hope to establish habits that will later be for ourselves', but really the best thing to do is let go of hope and put that energy into things we can control.
Not saying that's easy...I guess I have the same DB coach as As...sounds like Jodi all day long. We contract them with the goal of saving the M and they definitely try for that. I think their fear is that if they tell us it's over we will stop working on ourselves or something. Not sure. What I know is that I was 'hopeful' for the first three months, thought I saw 'signs of progress' such as questioning her decision, asking if I was seeing anyone, telling me she was starting to like the person I was becoming, etc...only to lead to a reality check so catastrophic I still wouldn't believe it if it hadn't happened to me.
Anyway, maybe that's where I needed to be at the time, and maybe it was good to plant some positive seeds with her before we parted ways entirely. But hope hasn't done anything but trip me up and cause me pain, and my heart goes out to all of those that cling to the idea of saving your M. I hope a few do, but that will happen with or without your hope.
It reminds me of 'trying to win'. I play competitive pool. One thing I have learned is there's no use in 'trying to win'. What does that even mean? I mean, you can't control the outcome. There is no guarantee you'll win. So trying to do something out of your control just creates pressure on yourself. Instead, I try to fight my hardest. Leave it all on the table. Hit every shot with my best effort. Enjoy the challenge I'm faced with. All of those things I CAN control. This creates confidence instead of pressure, because I can do those things. I enjoy myself more, play better, and hey, if I happen to get to the finish line first I'll get the trophy regardless of what I was 'trying' to do.
Sorry if I'm jaded, each to their own, wish you all well on your journeys, and I do know it will work out for everyone who does the work and has faith...I'll trust God to decide what working out looks like in my life.
I wouldn't say hope was the devil for me but it has had its negative effects detaching when I've focused on it and too much hope, or only had hope it would work out. I don't think I'll ever give up hope things will work out but I may completely forget about it one day. At this point I still have it but its tucked away in a box out of sight and mostly out of mind. It still keeps me doing the right things that may make progress with W, which is good because I'm still learning things about myself while interacting with her.
At this point I still have it but its tucked away in a box out of sight and mostly out of mind. It still keeps me doing the right things that may make progress with W, which is good because I'm still learning things about myself while interacting with her.
This is it Fogg. I agree with this completely. My hope is tucked well away. It's hope in something I can't understand with my rational mind at this point so I don't try to.
But, I look at the how many times we may have to interact together. Each one of those is golden opportunity for me, and for you. Not an opportunity to show our W's anything or make progress in our sitch's, but to learn as much as humanly possible from them. I know for a fact that the interactions around my dog have taught me a year's worth of relationship study. They have.
Those interactions alone have opened my mind to a completely new way of relating to relationships and communicating within them. That's incredible, I'll keep taking those and using them to grow as much as possible.
Plus, I've got two weeks of red meat eating and butt sniffing to watch!
Have a great weekend, how's the physical training going?
PP
I am on target, apart from flood day I followed the program.
My thighs ache a little. I switched body balance for Yoga. Mainly because yoga always sets me off with a migraine, I think it's because of my type 2.
The day of the flood my eating was very weird.
I don't eat much meat, but I had a naked burger and salad at Bills. I have a spin booked tomorrow but may need to skip it as I have to collect a dehumidifier.
V
Good for you V!! A little ache isn't bad as long as it's just soreness. No worry there at all. I think yoga is a tremendous practice as well there's a lot more going on than just stretching and strengthening if you can drop into your body and listen to what it's telling you during your sessions.
Sorry to hear about the flooding, somedays it does seem as if the world is conspiring against us. You're so strong as it is, I'm sure this is just a small blip in your path.
It makes me very happy to hear that you had a burger, a little red meat will help you with all of this output that you're engaged in.
Keep keeping on V!
Big hug,
PP
You may be right on the trying to assuage her guilt, but she still is feeling guilty because she recognizes that she is causing someone she still cares for pain. That is a good sign mixed in with a possibly bad sign. It still gives you a couple clues.
First, she still cares about you & she still is focused on you and paying attention. This is an opening to connect and build something (be it friendly relations, friendship, or something more). Also, she is watching & will see your 180s, your GAL, your detachment, your lack of pursuit, and this will have an impact on her. Where that will lead isn't clear, but when you make a change, you know that it will have some impact on your dynamic. That is a really good thing.
Second, if you get the vibe that she is assuaging her guilt, then you know she is still wanting space and that you need to keep away from any pursuing behavior and just keep your GAL & friendly detachment. Not time to start suggesting doing things together yet. Now, whether she actually feels this way is a hunch on your part, so you'll need other evidence to give you clues whether your hunch is being confirmed, unsupported, or really, really unclear. Nothing wrong with the cautious approach until you start getting real patterns of behavior that suggest otherwise.
I have to say that I think several of us who have chimed in have seen more positive signs that suggest that while she still may be in the mindset of sticking to her guns, that is taking some will power and there are some feelings (possibly not conscious to her yet) pulling her in the other direction.
Nothing for you to change really. You're doing well in your interactions for the most part. I understand wanting to have a skeptical outlook to avoid getting your hopes up and get hurt further, and of course you are there interacting with her & we are just reading your reports. Still, I'd be a little less pessimistic than you are given what you've told us.
Keep on keeping on.
Thanks As, I see the positive signs, I do. I'm also a bit jaded by my W. I believe what she's told me as far as what she wants. It's also not the first or second time she's told me this. I believe I'm at that place where I miss her, love her, but also look ahead at my life without her and think it's going to be fascinating.
I truly appreciate your completely outside perspective, nor do I believe I can look at my sitch objectively. I can see the points you mentioned, and positives that Wonka mentioned. Maybe I am just guarded against getting my hopes up.
So much of DB'ing seems to be giving yourself completely up to fate or a higher power. But doing so and then doing a hell of a lot of hard work here on the ground. Fate is going to decide whether that hard work will pay off in the form of reconciliation, and the only possibility of reconciliation exists if you do that hard work and leave the rest to fate. If that makes sense.
I'm in for the work. That's happening no matter what. I'm excited for it, and am completely turned on by learning all of this and using the little interactions I have with my W as learning experiences. I'm grateful for those opportunities in themselves. They are true nuggets of life wisdom that I wouldn't get otherwise.
Thanks for stopping by, I've made it to the cushion four mornings this week and am really digging the time down there.
Big hug,
PP
I wouldn't say most DBing is giving yourself up to fate or a higher power, but you do need to refocus on accepting things for what they are rather than what you think they should be.
If you stop over to my thread, you'll see that I've gone through a lot of the same questions/challenges you are. I had to accept what she was saying. It took my focus off of her. I accept that nothing I do may ultimately save my M. I don't accept that what I do won't make a big difference in the outcome. That outcome may be us D'ed, but it will be a better D than otherwise. It will be me being able to work w/ her as co-parent (your child is just a furry baby who won't require multiple decades of active coordination). It will be me moving ahead w/ my life and not putting my life on hold any longer. No, I'm not ready to date or anything like that, so that's not what I mean. It is going forward with my life as it is right now (that is how do I move forward knowing I'm not ready to move on R-wise). Not living in limbo. The legal side and the practical side are not the same thing. The legal reality may take a long time. We may change course along the way. But practically, it is moving the focus on to my life. She is just the mother of my children right now. I have a life that I'm responsible for. Some day it may be more than that. But the best thing for both of us is for me to move ahead without her. She will either follow along, or she won't.
You are actually doing much better than I think you see. But that doesn't make things emotionally easier. Accept that you need to feel how you are going to feel even if that doesn't meet the 'reality' of what the rest of us see. It is your reality. Our emotional life and external circumstances often don't match up. We need to respect that and embrace that emotional reality.
You're doing really well. This is really hard. Those aren't contradictory. It is just the mess of life as it is.
Personally I see nothing in accepting the higher power.
I love the 12 step serenity prayer, it is a balance between internal locus of control and external locus.
I have always had a huge internal locus of control, enormous sense of responsibility, this current phase has taught me, 'V it isnt all down to you, stuff happens' when it does how you react is down to you.
Old fashioned thinking was internal locus was best; now I see this as more of a best fit. If I let my higher power guide me and my intuition is part of that then I can move mountains. I can know when its my responsibility and I can manage that, or when its the universe and my reaction is that which counts. As the Serenity prayer says the wisdom to know the difference.
Oh and by the way, this board and all of the wonderful people on it are a part of my higher power and in many ways I trust you all to guide me. Since I have been here, there hasnt been much in the way of me messing up as a result of taking advice.
Another way of looking at it is 'The wisom of crowds'. If you Google it, see that its an extraordinary phenomenon.
V
Thanks for your input V and As.
I googled wisdom of the crowds V, very interesting. I wouldn't have thought that it would be more accurate, or even as accurate as an expert prediction. Something else to think about here.
This weekend is a perfect mix of GAL, work, writing and alone time. Woofie and I have a play date tomorrow at the beach, and I've had a very social week so some PP time is going to be heavenly.
I hope you both have a great weekend, if DB'ing truly is about time, I'm going to enjoy mine before next week starts back up again!
Big hugs to you both,
PP
That's the higher power, I recommend it.
V
Eh, have been absolutely miserable today. Miserable. And I have no idea why. I spent the morning at the beach chasing my dog around, had someone watch him while I swam and out bodysurfed for an hour, came home and did some writing, and all in all had what should be a really amazing Sunday.
I just can't get my W out of my head today. What is she doing? Who is she with? Is she lounging on the beach with a bunch of other guys? Why doesn't she want to give our M any kind of second shot?
If detaching comes in waves, I just got slammed into the sand by the surf today. Hopefully this will pass soon enough, but (censored) today is a tough one.
So hard to believe it's been almost 9 months into our separation and I still feel this way.
Detach, detach, detach, detach, detach.
PP
Sorry you're struggling PP. I know a lot of folks here think I've got it all together, but I go through days like that. They often catch me totally off guard with no obvious trigger event. They pass a lot easier. My best advice is don't fight them, but also let them be a reminder that we need to look at where our focus is drifting and think about where we'd like it to be for our own well-being and that of the R.
With me, it is usually I've allowed some sign of improvement/thaw plant that little seed of hope when the big wave comes and blind sides me. It is hard, as even though I recognized that hope is something that really is about a distant future, I can't help myself.
I really do thing she loves you still. I really see evidence that there is hope in your sitch. I really see evidence that you are doing very well to increase the odds of that. I also know that it won't be soon. Even if she is starting to pay attention and unconsciously adjusting her perspective on you, there is no way she is going to allow herself to reverse course at this point. She has a journey still ahead of her. The little signs of change are just that. Probably if she were to become aware that she was changing it would scare the cr*p out of her and she'd pull back. It has to develop slowly and subtly enough that by the time she realizes it she can't deny that she feels what she feels for you. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen, but it is actually a good thing that it won't be soon that she realizes this.
Now, maybe she is seeing OM. It doesn't sound like this has been her driving force. It sounds like she is focused on herself. Even if she sees someone, I don't get the read from what you've said that she is in the frame of mind to want something serious from anyone right now. That's just the way I read it. It will hurt to find out that she may be dating, even if it is casually, but I wouldn't see this as a threat. Just something you might have to figure out if you can handle knowing without blowing up any chance at reconciliation. If ultimately you would give her the chance, then I'd just try to put OM out of your mind. Given what you've said, they are an obstacle unless you make it one.
I hope the clouds pass quickly.
I know the feeling PP, had a similar day just thinking about W. In fact, since my coach call Thursday I've had a bunch of emotional periods concerning how my sitch began. Stay strong, we push through this just like the rest of the bad days knowing there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Sorry to hear my man.
Yeah, this is a loss unlike anything I've experienced. Since BD my life has been a nightmare.
As time passes it's a nightmare where I get cosy, relax, go with the flow, and am actually doing better than I have before in my life.
But I don't think the loss is something you get over. It's just something you get used to. Like if you lost a child. You're not just going to grieve for a while and then it's ok. It's never going to be ok again...but you still have to live your life because that's the only thing to do. Doesn't mean that you can't live a full and meaningful and happy life, but that loss will always be there.
Divorce just shouldn't be legal...;)
Zeus,
I hope you take this not as a criticism, but as a heads up on something I think you in no way intended.
I know you're struggling, and I know you put a wink after your statement, but I really need to point out that there are women on this forum who have been abused and have taken the reasonable path of seeking a D to escape that situation.
If you have ever worked w/ abuse survivors, you would know that many/most carry the physical and emotional scars of their abuse for the rest of their lives, often making it hard for them to enter into healthy Rs again. They also often carry around a great deal of guilt and shame, and we need to have a sensitivity that they may by hurt by statements like yours even if you didn't mean for it to come across in a hurtful way.
I think almost everyone on here wishes society didn't see D as so acceptable, although I think many we think are walking away too quickly have really wrestled more than we give them credit for and are feeling a lot of pain about their choice. I think most of us wish there were longer legal cooling off periods (although again I'd make exceptions in the case of abuse) to allow for everyone to go through the chaos of emotions that are set off with As, MLC, and feeling like they've had enough. So, I think you'll find most of us are sympathetic to your critique of our culture.
And, again, I know you aren't the type to want to cause pain to any of the women here. Having worked with abuse survivors, I'm just hyper sensitive to how easy it is for our words to unintentionally cause abuse survivors pain that decent people like us really feel bad about because we really didn't understand the impact of those words.
Zeus,
I hope you take this not as a criticism, but as a heads up on something I think you in no way intended.
I know you're struggling, and I know you put a wink after your statement, but I really need to point out that there are women on this forum who have been abused and have taken the reasonable path of seeking a D to escape that situation.
If you have ever worked w/ abuse survivors, you would know that many/most carry the physical and emotional scars of their abuse for the rest of their lives, often making it hard for them to enter into healthy Rs again. They also often carry around a great deal of guilt and shame, and we need to have a sensitivity that they may by hurt by statements like yours even if you didn't mean for it to come across in a hurtful way.
I think almost everyone on here wishes society didn't see D as so acceptable, although I think many we think are walking away too quickly have really wrestled more than we give them credit for and are feeling a lot of pain about their choice. I think most of us wish there were longer legal cooling off periods (although again I'd make exceptions in the case of abuse) to allow for everyone to go through the chaos of emotions that are set off with As, MLC, and feeling like they've had enough. So, I think you'll find most of us are sympathetic to your critique of our culture.
And, again, I know you aren't the type to want to cause pain to any of the women here. Having worked with abuse survivors, I'm just hyper sensitive to how easy it is for our words to unintentionally cause abuse survivors pain that decent people like us really feel bad about because we really didn't understand the impact of those words.
100% agreed. Those that know me know I tend to go to extremes, so I was intending to make a little fun of myself. But I appreciate your feedback as I'm sure I will encounter people with this background and may not even know it.
I know what you meant, and I know you were meaning no harm. Your decency comes pouring through so many of your posts. I'm glad you did not take it as criticism as that is the last thing I would want.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all of you for coming in and giving me a proverbial pat on the butt. I think having my dog at the beach kind of screwed me up because it was such a beautiful day and could have been such a beautiful day for us to be together. Not worried about who's going to end up with him, not worried about why we got here, just a happy couple enjoying each other.
I just got back from a dinner GAL with some great friends, spending the evening talking about how fast technology is changing and how scary it is! Got to watch our dogs play in the back yard and enjoy amazing company. It definitely changed my state.
As, Fogg, and Zeus, thank you very much for your words, they really were a blessing to come back to.
PP
Another Monday in DB Land.
No interaction planned for WAW and myself this week, so I'm going to focus on the gift of time and continue to DB from a distance.
I have a big week of taking Woofie to the beach, filling him up with bacon, and moving forward on some business work.
I've also hired a very interesting financial coach since my W was the one that handled all of our home finances, and my business partner handled all of our business finances. So much of the work she's doing is similar to the work we do here - accountability, 180's from what is normally happening around $$$, looking at the positive in negative situations, focusing on what we can control, etc. So many parallels between DB, AA, and any other form of self improvement.
This post was written with a bed that is made, 15 minutes of meditation done, and a journal entry written, my goals for the week are to start everyone morning in this exact way.
Hope everyone has a peaceful week.
PP
Wow, PP, you are on track. Good job on the financial coach, good job on the morning routine.
I just got back from a dinner GAL with some great friends, spending the evening talking about how fast technology is changing and how scary it is! Got to watch our dogs play in the back yard and enjoy amazing company. It definitely changed my state.
Be careful you don't become one of those old men who sits around w/ his friends complaining about them new-fangled things that just complicate life.
Hey PP, just wanted to say thank you for popping by my place, your kind words, lifted my spirit.
Light and love
JellyBxxx
Wow, PP, you are on track. Good job on the financial coach, good job on the morning routine.
Thanks Sunny, she is a very interesting coach. Basically dissected my personal issues, and self worth challenges all through how I deal with finances. My goal is to have both the practical and emotional aspect of money understood moving into the new year.
So much to learn...
Hey PP, just wanted to say thank you for popping by my place, your kind words, lifted my spirit.
Light and love
JellyBxxx
You're more than welcome Jelly B, I hope you've decided against purposeful spinsterhood and are continuing to wait for the lucky man who will realize just how much you bring to the table.
Thank you for your light and love.
PP
PP,
I
cannot start my day without making my bed first...otherwise I'd be antsy and grumpy. A neatly made bad makes for a good day to me.
Hey PP, just wanted to say thank you for popping by my place, your kind words, lifted my spirit.
Light and love
JellyBxxx
You're more than welcome Jelly B, I hope you've decided against purposeful spinsterhood and are continuing to wait for the lucky man who will realize just how much you bring to the table.
Thank you for your light and love.
PP
Hey PP,
Purposeful spinisterhood sounds so much more regal and astute than crazy cat lady.
Note I am allergic to cats, so my cats would need to be imaginary, thus I would infact be the Crazy Lady with the imaginary cats.
PS: Do you have these women where you live or is this just a Kiwi(New Zealand) pheonomonon?
Thank you for the hug too PP
Cheers JellyB xxx
JB, there are crazy cat ladies everywhere. I think I'm in the running for that, too. I currently have three kids, two cats, one dog, and no H. As the kids grow up and leave, I think I'll just replace them with more cats...
I have a strong feeling that both JellyB and SunnyB will not end up as cat ladies!
Both of you show so much darn strength, determination, and love on this forum for yourselves and all of us that I BELIEVE you will both end up head over heels in love again.
We all need time on here. Not just time for our sitch's but time for big healing. People ask me all the time why I'm not dating...because I'm not within a country mile of being ok with what happened first, then being ok by myself, THEN being ok sharing my life with someone else. That's time with a capital T.
Believe in yourselves ladies, believe in love, believe that there are good men out there who will recognize you both for who you are and celebrate you. Celebrate what you've had to overcome to get to where you are and to get to who you are. I believe it.
Have a great Wed DB'ers.
PP
Oh SunnyB,
Your darling yourgest is a beautiful but likely prehormal 12 year old. You have some time to avoid the crazy cat lady status. Like PP, you are a catch, you are extraordinarily warm and really smart. I keep telling myself to dream the impossible dream...yes cue music in the back ground Ally McBeal styles (omg so showing my age!
Yes PP, I think time on my life settling my life is more of a priority than I think it is. It is sitting with the discomfort of that kinda does me in a bit.
Dear PP thank you for all your love and support. 8.41am Thurs NZ time here!
Yes PP, I think time on my life settling my life is more of a priority than I think it is. It is sitting with the discomfort of that kinda does me in a bit.
There's a lot to be learned from sitting in the discomfort Jelly. There's a lesson in there somewhere and if we sit in it long enough, with an open heart, open mind, and often times a pen and paper, we can learn a lot.
I spent 6 months wondering if I was going to get served D papers any day. There was a lot of sitting in the fire. I hope to never have to go through something like that again, but also grew more in that time than at any point in my whole life. There's something to be said for it.
Embrace the discomfort and ask what it's there to teach you. Then attack the lesson with all of your considerable energy.
PP
Hi PP Just read through a few of your posts and you seem in a reasonably good place. Re the growth You're so right. It's a terrible time for us but it's how we choose to deal with it that's ours to control.
Thanks for your post on my thread , I appreciate it
Take care. Rd
Hi PP! Sorry I haven't been on here, but I've been exhausted with my work load and my S.
I'm sorry you had a rough day at the beach. I totally get where you were coming from. There are just certain things that we're supposed to share with our spouses...or at least it has been that way, and then suddenly, sorry, no thank you.
Talk about a giant hole in our lives! I think someone mentioned on here about making sure that our GAL fulfills us, not just using up time. I try for that. I also sometimes get by literally minute by minute.
I hope today was great for you.
**hugs**
E
Hi PP! Sorry I haven't been on here, but I've been exhausted with my work load and my S.
I'm sorry you had a rough day at the beach. I totally get where you were coming from. There are just certain things that we're supposed to share with our spouses...or at least it has been that way, and then suddenly, sorry, no thank you.
Talk about a giant hole in our lives! I think someone mentioned on here about making sure that our GAL fulfills us, not just using up time. I try for that. I also sometimes get by literally minute by minute.
I hope today was great for you.
**hugs**
E
No apology needed E. I still marvel at how all of you handle this with actual human children.
Seems like a lot of pain and suffering on the board today, everyone's sitch causing grief. I'm feeling it too just not sure why. I can't categorize it as depression, just a complete malaise and dissatisfaction. Like I'm underwater today, just not drowning.
There's so much amazement ahead of us but man does BD send us on an adventure into the pit of our emotions. I miss my W again something terribly and woke up this morning with the thought that I was the Thrown Away Spouse TAS instead of LBH. Not sure where the thought came from, maybe stemming from the fact that it's taking everything in my power not to reach out to my W on most days, where I mind read that she has no problem keeping a distance.
I hope we all find a little bit of light today. Stay strong DB'ers.
PP
A bit of light would be nice. I think maybe it's the time of year. Shorter days, winter coming...who knows. It is so hard to detach. I still struggle with not picking up the phone.
May your day tomorrow be filled with light.
E
A bit of light would be nice. I think maybe it's the time of year. Shorter days, winter coming...who knows. It is so hard to detach. I still struggle with not picking up the phone.
May your day tomorrow be filled with light.
E
Thank you E, so much. My days have been a bit cloudy lately, not sure why. Perhaps it's having my dog back and realizing how much I missed him over the past four months, and having that feeling stir up how much I miss my W and don't understand this process. I do understand it rationally, but don't in my heart.
It's Friday and already I'm steeling myself for the weekend. Against thoughts of what my W may be doing, who she's with, and if she's thinking of me. One three day weekend and I realize how much detaching there still is to do. I understand why people break down and just file for D's themselves or start a new relationship with someone else. The tiniest bit of hope that the DB process keeps can be challenging in itself. Detach, detach, detach.
That being said, I'm grateful for the hope as it's still a driving force to stay strong, stay sober, keep learning, and not give in to the dark archetypal pattern of divorce that seems so ready and willing to scoop us all up. I still see it with friends, and read about it elsewhere and do not want to be a part of that.
If there truly are lessons to be learned from pain, we're all learning them here. I know I am. If one of them is gratitude, that lesson is a big one.
Have a strong Friday DB'ers.
PP
My days have been a bit cloudy lately, not sure why. Perhaps it's having my dog back and realizing how much I missed him over the past four months, and having that feeling stir up how much I miss my W and don't understand this process. I do understand it rationally, but don't in my heart.
I feel the exact same at times and its just what it is. This can be one of the hardest things we will every experience in life so it makes sense the feelings come back when triggered by something. I was thinking about my new job and the possibility of being in my companies Paris tech center for training. Then I got to thinking all the things I would want to go to see while there, mind wanders to the Eiffel tower. Then It hits me how many couples go there on romantic vacations and I would be there alone, thinking of W and begin crying.
It's Friday and already I'm steeling myself for the weekend. Against thoughts of what my W may be doing, who she's with, and if she's thinking of me. One three day weekend and I realize how much detaching there still is to do. I understand why people break down and just file for D's themselves or start a new relationship with someone else. The tiniest bit of hope that the DB process keeps can be challenging in itself. Detach, detach, detach.
Yep, its just too easy to be done with all of this after all of the suffering we go through. I think what keeps me away from that is understanding it only provides some relief. The pain will still come back in the future one way or another.
That being said, I'm grateful for the hope as it's still a driving force to stay strong, stay sober, keep learning, and not give in to the dark archetypal pattern of divorce that seems so ready and willing to scoop us all up. I still see it with friends, and read about it elsewhere and do not want to be a part of that.
Balance I think is the key in everything we do here, I see that more and more lately. Just enough hope to not throw in the towel so we continue to do the work but also not enough to where we don't accept the reality of the situation. Accept what is happening but with a tiny sliver of hope that it may turn around.
If there truly are lessons to be learned from pain, we're all learning them here. I know I am. If one of them is gratitude, that lesson is a big one.
Thats what keeps me going, the learning about myself and grown that this gives. In some ways we're lucky for this experience (F me for actually saying that, but it has its kernel of truth).
Have a strong Friday DB'ers.
PP
Enjoy your weekend PP, hope you have a good one
-Fogg
[quote=Fogg]
Thats what keeps me going, the learning about myself and grown that this gives. In some ways we're lucky for this experience (F me for actually saying that, but it has its kernel of truth). [quote=Fogg]
I hear you on this one Fog, we are lucky to have the opportunity to better ourselves, I agree with that. We are also taking the worst of experiences and turning them into something positive. I'm not sure if I'd classify that as luck, but incredible abdominal fortitude and deep character.
I just spent a glorious 30 minutes deep in meditation and would love to espouse all of the insights that I got from it. I got none. Only one step closer to knowing myself a bit better in silence I guess. I went into it after having two nagging questions. I'll pontificate a bit here since my dog is sick of hearing me talk out loud.
Last night I went out to dinner with three other couples. Two of whom I was the officiant at their weddings. The third is unmarried but getting there. All three of these couples met through my business. One has their second child on the way. When I opened the business, my W was just a friend.
I spent the evening pondering how the Universe or God, or whoever and/or whatever is pulling the strings in life would have me dedicate 7 years of my life to building a business that has brought so many people together - couples, groups of friends, business partners, and now we even have a few newborns from the above - but then have the stress/hours/energy output of building that business be a big impetus in the demise of my own family. ("you only cared about work, work always came first, the business owned our lives")
Why after all that time and effort to build the community and so much positivity, would I realize that it's not the place for me? Why could I only see that leaving was the right move AFTER my M fell apart.
That was question 1.
Question 2 was more on the nature of DB'ing and hope, and maybe less of a question and more of a thought. I've been thinking about this a lot.
The little bit of Stockdale hope that I have from DB'ing, and the actions of DB'ing itself, are definitely keeping me from "moving on before I'm ready" so to speak. This is also coming from someone who seems to bring on the constant question of "So are you dating now? Why not, she's clearly moved on why aren't you?"
I think that after BD it may take me (hypothetically) two full years before I'm ready to move on with any kind of emotional honesty. Whether that's on to dating, or just getting through the day/night without having imaginary conversations/arguments/love affairs with my W.
Two years.
Without DB, I would most likely be trying to shortcut that process already with other women (they've been making themselves well known), overwork, or ignoring my real feelings. I say that here at the 9 month mark with 13 hypothetical months minimum to go.
I'm starting to think that DB'ing is going to get me to stay single, stay focused, and stay sane all the way to the two year mark. This board being a huge part of that process. Then at the two year mark, who knows what will happen. But I'll know I didn't skip any steps. My healing will be so much further and more complete than if I skipped huge sections of it by jumping in bed with people, and not having this board to read, follow, or write long posts on. Like this one i.e. sharing with people who are going through the same chitty situation. I still learn more from reading other people's writing than I do making my own.
Those are my thoughts since the gift of time is still keeping my W from calling me, running back to me with thoughts of reconciliation, D paperwork, and/or anything in between.
I hope everyone is having a peaceful Sunday.
PP
Remember she had a head start on you in the moving on department. I'd also say that it isn't clear that she has moved on. She may be dating (I can't remember if you know or not), but that's not the same as moving on.
When someone asks you why you haven't moved on, just shrug and say "I'm a slow learner." Leave it, and don't worry what they think. You'll know when it is time.
On the unfairness of bringing people together while your R falls apart, this is just life. They look all lovey and happy from the outside, but you have no idea the health of their Rs. Just let it go. Be happy for them, just as they will for you when you find happiness in another, be it the old flame or a new one.
All that said, I often look around at couples where the guy is clearly not a very good H, and wonder why my M is dissolving when I was better even at my worst. Got tiring after a while, otherwise, I'm sure I'd still be doing it.
I basically have the same thought process about dating and DB'ing, for now anyway. The only issue with me is that I think I want to wait a year after we D. Since she still hasn't filed the paperwork that's been sitting on the dishwasher since......I don't even remember how long now....Its going to be 6 months(wait period with small children in house) after she files plus the year. So at at the moment that timer is 18 months and it hasn't even started ticking yet.
Obviously things will happen as they happen so no point in trying to work it out too much now, who knows how the future will play out and when we are ready or not. Hopefully when the moment comes we will just know.
PP
You never know what the higher spirit has in mind for you.
The meditation, mindfulness and work are all operating in the subconscious, affecting the epigenetics. It works it's magic and then there is shift. And it isn't small.
I note that some posters here develop and grow enormously in spirit. You are one of them, there will be more shift to come, I believe I know the signs.
V
Remember she had a head start on you in the moving on department. I'd also say that it isn't clear that she has moved on. She may be dating (I can't remember if you know or not), but that's not the same as moving on.
When someone asks you why you haven't moved on, just shrug and say "I'm a slow learner." Leave it, and don't worry what they think. You'll know when it is time.
On the unfairness of bringing people together while your R falls apart, this is just life. They look all lovey and happy from the outside, but you have no idea the health of their Rs. Just let it go. Be happy for them, just as they will for you when you find happiness in another, be it the old flame or a new one.
All that said, I often look around at couples where the guy is clearly not a very good H, and wonder why my M is dissolving when I was better even at my worst. Got tiring after a while, otherwise, I'm sure I'd still be doing it.
Thanks As, that's good advice. I like the "I'm a slow learner" line. I understand where people are coming from, they want to see me happy again, but it's not their business. As I said in a prior post, even if I weren't DB'ing I wouldn't be within a country mile of being emotionally ready to be with someone else. I'm still very much in love with my WAW.
As for people acting poorly and staying married...I just got off the phone with my parents. Standard call - within 2 minutes they are bickering over complete minutia. My father said that they left for dinner at 7, my mom said they left at 7:15. It was completely inconsequential to the quality of the food, but it was worth arguing over until I asked them to stop. They're going on 45 years together!
My W and I didn't make it to year 4.
One day at a time with all of this. One day at a time.
I basically have the same thought process about dating and DB'ing, for now anyway. The only issue with me is that I think I want to wait a year after we D. Since she still hasn't filed the paperwork that's been sitting on the dishwasher since......I don't even remember how long now....Its going to be 6 months(wait period with small children in house) after she files plus the year. So at at the moment that timer is 18 months and it hasn't even started ticking yet.
Obviously things will happen as they happen so no point in trying to work it out too much now, who knows how the future will play out and when we are ready or not. Hopefully when the moment comes we will just know.
Well Fogg, I look at it this way. If we DB all the way through to the finale, we're going to be much further along emotionally and relationship intelligence wise than the average bear. At that point, I'll be open to meeting people but won't be out searching them out.
Heck there's too much fun to be had just learning new things and expanding. Dating will happen when it does. If it does. I'm in no hurry.
(cup of coffee would be nice though!)
PP
You never know what the higher spirit has in mind for you.
The meditation, mindfulness and work are all operating in the subconscious, affecting the epigenetics. It works it's magic and then there is shift. And it isn't small.
I note that some posters here develop and grow enormously in spirit. You are one of them, there will be more shift to come, I believe I know the signs.
V
Thank you Lady V, your words are always so comforting. I feel the shifts that have happened already and am able to see a much bigger picture unfolding, albeit painfully slowly. This is true.
I also agree that my work on the internal aspects are just beginning. This is both exhilarating and terrifying. I'm buckled in and ready for whatever the higher power has in store for me.
Big hug,
PP
Fighting isn't the problem. Failing to make up is the problem. My W & I should have fought more. It was a failure to fight well and speak our minds, not frequency.
And your parents are a different generation. My DB coach points out that when MWD wrote DB, DBing really didn't take as long (5-6 sessions, and boom). Now, not so much. Different societal standards on D & M. And, I'd say on the plus side, women being more empowered to not put up with so much. Therapy & R skills haven't kept up with that, unfortunately. Think of yourself as part of the avant garde.
Hang in there. Your sitch has been showing some progress. You seem to be approaching friend stage, which is necessary to further change.
Thanks As, today is a new day. I knew this weekend would be a tough one even though I had it filled with GAL, all of the GAL'ing is with mutual friends. My situation is still often the elephant in the room, especially now that Woofie is back around.
I'm starting to be more comfortable talking about it and even joking about it on some level with friends.
Today I've got my rubber bands back on my wrist - "fear of the future bands". Anytime I think of my W or get nervous about next year I give them a snap and tell myself to have faith!
Happy Labor Day DB'ers.
PP
Last post of the thread.
Last night I was reading a post by someone that has been on the boards for over 5 years. He was talking about WAW and how if they feel that you want to get back into your M at the drop of the hat they'll keep their distance at all costs.
I'm trying to find the exact quote and have searched threads but can't find it! If anyone read that too and can quote if for me I'd love to read it again, it was such a great post.
Thanks fellow DB'ers.
PP
Found it. Great write up by Accuray:
I've been around here for 5+ years now although I rarely come by anymore as my life is in a really good place and it's hard to bring myself back. In those 5 years here's what I've seen:
Pursuing never works -- ever.
As long as your W feels like you are ready to jump back into a relationship with her as soon as she says "go" she will never be interested in doing so.
Before she can even consider it, she has to believe that you have completely let her go, that you are "done" and are at most ambivalent about trying again.
Until she truly believes that, she will not reverse course.
I can't tell you exactly why that is, but a WAS who believes that you are pursuing them even the slightest bit never looks back. When they feel you are truly "gone", at least emotionally, they will feel a sense of loss and for the first time will have the space to miss you and to assess what has been lost.
GAL and "Act as If" are designed (in my opinion) to simulate that state of having moved on. Few people are able to do GAL and "Act as If" when they are in such a state of emotional turmoil, and even fewer are able to do it "the right way" where they are not also simultaneously pursuing their runaway partner.
Bill I think you have to start turning down the dimmer switch on the attention and support you give her and eventually go pretty much dark. Give her space to miss you, and to feel what life will be like without your warm glow. Be absent instead of being present.
You've established through this last phase how supportive and wonderful you can be, now take that away and let her miss it. I truly believe that's your best hope.
Acc
Please start a new thread.