First thread-
Huge Backslide After Affair Recovery Infidelity section thread-
Heading Toward Affair- What to Do? Time for a new thread. Still not consistent with any set plan.
Working on my 180 which is to not to confront H when my anxiety sets in & I am in a panic (convinced I know something that usually I do not know for certain).
I am GAL... I had 2 evening events last week. I have 1-2 evening events this week.
Last week H wanted to "fix" it because what we were doing was leading us to no where good. He made several changes to transparency & started wearing his ring again.
Then Friday I freaked out & approached him in an accusatory way (hence figuring out what my 180 needed to be!) & he has shut down. We are still friendly but he has withdrawn any affection that we had started to build back up after his "fix" it email.
We have a vacation starting on Saturday & lasting for 16 days. It will be interesting to see how that goes. My individual counselor thinks that it will be a good opportunity for us to build back some good into the relationship.
Started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" today. I am intrigued. I think it could be helpful for us. Those that have read it, when did you & how did you see if your spouse would read it?
From your other thread ....
Trying to get out of his head & to stop worrying so much about all that. This is difficult. I think because if you care about saving your marriage, it is only natural to think about what your spouse is thinking, going through, needing, etc. It doesn't help that we have been an avoid-avoid type relationship (found this out in our marital counseling) and this got us into a lot of our problems before. We both stuffed our resentments & then exploded on each other when we couldn't hold it in any longer. So we tended to avoid conflict and discussions about the conflicts whenever possible. So then in marriage counseling we learned how to address these things. And now... I am suppose to back off & wait for him to use the counseling skills & address his issues? I just have so much conflicting information ... my counselor is even suggesting doing something different. So no wonder I am at war with myself on what my best approach should be.
I found that the DB techniques felt so opposite of what I 'felt' I should be doing .... but then I realized, I spent 24 years doing what I 'felt' I should be doing and the more I pressed .. the more she ran. Even now as we are BOTH commited and BOTH actively doing the work to rebuild our M and our Trust ... I still catch myself pursuing, because when I do she pulls back ... its the Push-Pull dance one you must figure out Hope .. because by your posts .. you are pushing alot .. and your H is definately pulling away .... so how do you counter this?? Yup.. YOU PULL BACK and let him come to you.
Started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" today. I am intrigued. I think it could be helpful for us. Those that have read it, when did you & how did you see if your spouse would read it?
Simple answer ... when they are all in .. but even then some spouses are not as active in the M as others, your H may feel that his efforts should be enough, the fact he is merely physically there should show you ... by you wanting him to read the book you would feel that he finally cares about the M the same way you do ... this most likely is not the case.
I know this because I am the same .. I have read 5 M help books and W is only 1/2 through the first one we 'started together' ... its not how she operates, nor does it mean she doesn't care about me or our M ... but I used to think that way to be honest.
Allow his some room to breathe, do not suffocate him .. nor start tossing 'fix it ' books in his direction, if he asks you what you are reading .. then by all means share, leave it out .. maybe he picks it up .... maybe he sets his iced tea on it .. allow him some space and the room to move in your relationship.
From your other thread ....
Trying to get out of his head & to stop worrying so much about all that. This is difficult. I think because if you care about saving your marriage, it is only natural to think about what your spouse is thinking, going through, needing, etc. It doesn't help that we have been an avoid-avoid type relationship (found this out in our marital counseling) and this got us into a lot of our problems before. We both stuffed our resentments & then exploded on each other when we couldn't hold it in any longer. So we tended to avoid conflict and discussions about the conflicts whenever possible. So then in marriage counseling we learned how to address these things. And now... I am suppose to back off & wait for him to use the counseling skills & address his issues? I just have so much conflicting information ... my counselor is even suggesting doing something different. So no wonder I am at war with myself on what my best approach should be.
I found that the DB techniques felt so opposite of what I 'felt' I should be doing .... but then I realized, I spent 24 years doing what I 'felt' I should be doing and the more I pressed .. the more she ran. Even now as we are BOTH commited and BOTH actively doing the work to rebuild our M and our Trust ... I still catch myself pursuing, because when I do she pulls back ... its the Push-Pull dance one you must figure out Hope .. because by your posts .. you are pushing alot .. and your H is definately pulling away .... so how do you counter this?? Yup.. YOU PULL BACK and let him come to you.
I totally get this. When we were in counseling for his affair & we learned the role we each played in leading up to it, we figured out that I had withdrawn & he pursued. Then the affair changed the dynamic. All of a sudden, I was the pursuer. I was shocked into reality and was afraid of losing the marriage. He was in his fog & I was pursuing heavy. Then as time went along & we went through counseling, I think we both evened out. Still working through issues, but no clear pursuer/withdrawer roles.
Then bam... we are back in it. Except instead of the roles we played for years (him pursuing, me distancing), I am pursuing as I did at finding out about the affair. Because he is pulling away from me in his hurt.
So definitely totally get this. Yes. Get this 100%. But because I have played both roles, it is hard for me to find the medium. I think I am doing much better at not pursuing. Still mess up from time to time & confront when I am feeling crazy panicked... but that is my new refocused 180 goal & I feel good about that.
I guess the struggle I have is that when I think about him coming to me, I realize I could be waiting for a very long time not to mention that there is possible outside interference w/ the OW that I will not stick around if indeed something happens there.
Started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" today. I am intrigued. I think it could be helpful for us. Those that have read it, when did you & how did you see if your spouse would read it?
Simple answer ... when they are all in .. but even then some spouses are not as active in the M as others, your H may feel that his efforts should be enough, the fact he is merely physically there should show you ... by you wanting him to read the book you would feel that he finally cares about the M the same way you do ... this most likely is not the case.
I know this because I am the same .. I have read 5 M help books and W is only 1/2 through the first one we 'started together' ... its not how she operates, nor does it mean she doesn't care about me or our M ... but I used to think that way to be honest.
Allow his some room to breathe, do not suffocate him .. nor start tossing 'fix it ' books in his direction, if he asks you what you are reading .. then by all means share, leave it out .. maybe he picks it up .... maybe he sets his iced tea on it .. allow him some space and the room to move in your relationship.
Ok, I definitely can see what you are saying. I will leave them around & see if he ends up picking them up.
I am thinking if things are still going poorly when we get back from our vacation, I will tell H that I am needing to go to the town we moved from (where my family is) & do xyz for a few days. I think it would be helpful for us to have some space from each other... especially if things have not improved while we are on vacation. For me, it will be helpful to be around family & enjoy myself a bit rather than always thinking about what H is doing or thinking. For H it might be helpful to get some distance from his resentments he feels towards me by not seeing me everyday.
Is this generally a good idea to get away? I think the only real danger would be in him doing something w/ the OW... but she is also married so I think it would not be so easy for her to get away. I guess they could come to our house during the day... hmmmm....
I am thinking if things are still going poorly when we get back from our vacation, So you are setting yourself up for expectations here Hope ... DO NOT have Expectations ... just enjoy the vaca regardless of what H does .... GET OUT OF HIS HEAD I will tell H that I am needing to go to the town we moved from (where my family is) & do xyz for a few days. I think it would be helpful for us to have some space from each other... especially if things have not improved while we are on vacation. For me, it will be helpful to be around family & enjoy myself a bit rather than always thinking about what H is doing or thinking. For H it might be helpful to get some distance from his resentments he feels towards me by not seeing me everyday. If you are doing this to get a reaction out of you rH ... you are going to blow this thing up in your own lap ... worry about YOU ... if you need to get away and recharge .. go do that ... REGARDLESS of what your H says/ does
Is this generally a good idea to get away? I think the only real danger would be in him doing something w/ the OW... but she is also married so I think it would not be so easy for her to get away. I guess they could come to our house during the day... hmmmm....
[b][/b]
Again ... he will do what he wants when he wants ... he already proved that right? You leaving or staying is not going to change what he wants to do .. you have to stop thinking you and your actions control him. The A and OW ... Not your circus .. not your monkey.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
My boy, Cali, stuck the landing with that response up there^^^^
Hope, your h will do what he does. Free will.
Enjoy your vacation and have fun!
Again ... he will do what he wants when he wants ... he already proved that right? You leaving or staying is not going to change what he wants to do .. you have to stop thinking you and your actions control him. The A and OW ... Not your circus .. not your monkey.
Ah, ok, ok. Letting go of control (even the illusion) is difficult for me. But I definitely see what you are saying. I would be doing it for me... I find when I am with my family I am happier and more relaxed. But it is hard to stop considering what it would do for H. But point taken.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
My boy, Cali, stuck the landing with that response up there^^^^
Hope, your h will do what he does. Free will.
Enjoy your vacation and have fun!
Yes. You are right. I am working to give up the control I seem to think I could possibly have. I think my perceived ability to influence certain things makes me keep at it. I do realize that it is ultimately H's decision whether to end his contact with OW ... and it is also his decision whether to start up another affair. But I think that if I can do better at xyz (things I need to improve on... like not being so accusatory or other unhealthy communication habits I have gotten into) & we can build back a good foundation & have a lot more positive good feelings about each other... then he would more easily see that maintaining any kind of relationship w/ the OW is detrimental to our R. So am I trying to control what he does? I think I really want to create a positive environment by making healthy choices so that it enables my H & I to come together & work on being better to each other. I realize that I cannot say xyz & expect him to do it. But I think if I, say for example, apologize for my unhealthy approach, I am creating an environment of owning my mistakes & being repentant ... which is paving the way for more positive interactions in the future. Right?
H waited up in bed for me last night after I got done reading to D. He was in the middle of the bed as opposed to his far side & he was faced toward my side rather than having his back to it like he has for the past 4 nights. He initiated a conversation. He explained why he got so upset from Friday. Of course I knew this. I told him that I wished he wouldn't be so quick to yank away his affection when he gets upset/mad. He said that when I confront him like I did on Friday, it makes him feel like I do not know him at all. Then that eventually leads him to thinking about what I accused him of possibly doing (in the conversation w/ my sister that he read) w/ our child & that makes him feel even more alienated from me. So it is like a spiral. I listened and affirmed. I felt pain for causing his pain and made sure to tell him this. We also talked about needing to start all over & figure out what needs we are not meeting for each other & we agreed that we should be looking to each other to meet these needs rather than other ppl. HOWEVER! I have a gut feeling he is still talking to the OW as a friend. I am doing nothing about this at this point as I realize it is pointless. I successfully accomplished my 180 of not saying anything when I had an overwhelming anxious panic about messages that he was getting on his phone (& I found his phone relocked again when he went to the bathroom). I am letting it go for now to be addressed when we have more good things going on between us.
So another up on the roller coaster ride that is my life. We'll see how long before the next down... just hoping the downs to come are not as bad as they have been.
hope
Good job just listening and not getting all spun out when you discovered the phone is locked .. thats progress .. baby steps.
hope
Good job just listening and not getting all spun out when you discovered the phone is locked .. thats progress .. baby steps.
Thanks, Cali. I still feel anxious about it when I think about it. This morning we were talking at the table & he took a good long time to make eye contact (& he wasn't preoccupied with reading anything ... he was just looking at everything except me) & we were talking about every day stuff. All these little red flags. I know I should not pay attention to them but it's hard to stop. But I am keeping myself from saying anything so that is really where the impact is, I think. If only I could get my mind as in control. I guess I just keep thinking of what an overwhelming obstacle we will have to undergo if he does not ever see that his contact w/ OW is a huge problem. So thinking of tackling that makes my stomach drop. It is going to be hard enough to fix our marital issues w/o her in the wings... it will be incredibly difficult if not impossible to fix it w/ her in the background, even if she is just offering "friendship". Ugh.
Hope
I will share with you something I learned in all this... the mind is alot like a muscle. You have to work it out, like you are at the gym. You are starting slow by just simply containing your actions, not voicing them ... this is a start. Now you need to train yourself to not have these thoughts that will get you spinning.
A few techniques ... you can close your eyes and imagine a STOP sign ... stop thinking about those red flags and OW. Others use a rubber band and snap it. Another I used was setting a timer on my phone ... 5-10 minutes .. I would go somewhere alone and allow myself that time to think about W, OM, whatever it was ... when the timer went off .. no more .. think of something else .. family/kids/a GAL activity.
Thing is .. this is all you ... just as you can not control your H's thoughts and his actions ... nor can he control/influence yours once you realize all that power is inside of you. So YOU need to captain your ship here hope ... never allow someone to sail you into the cliffs
As far as the OW goes ... you have to set this aside for now, I am not saying it does not get addressed ... I just do not think you are 'there' just yet ... time and place for everything, now is not the time. Do know ... that when you get there we will really get into Boundaries, you have to set some smaller ones up first then when the time is right .. the big ones come into play and NC with the OP is typically right up there with Full Transparency & MC once you both come to the table open and willing to work on the M. To put This boundary up to fast (as I did) is a mistake and can set you back a solid 6 months as it did me... patience Hope ... get your ship under control first here ok?
I see what you are saying, Cali...I am working at stopping thoughts but man! Sometimes I can do it fairly easily & other times it seems impossible (the main time being when I wake up in the middle of the night or too early in the morning... I cannot get thoughts to quiet enough to fall back asleep!!). I will keep working on it though.
So about OW... I think you are right that now is not the time. I am practicing great control to be patient & wait for the right opportunity. He at least agrees that we need to meet each other's needs & not look to other ppl... But somehow I think he is rationalizing that relationship w/ her... Or he just is not caring about being dishonest. In his head again, I know.
So what do you mean by small boundaries? When do you think is a good time to start down this road? I've basically been feeling like maybe it would be time when we have lots of good feelings going between us and have minimized the negative moments. Otherwise, I just don't know how else to determine the readiness. I'd appreciate your thoughts since you have been there!
Small update...
Yesterday h texted & we were talking about $. He said - I guess I'll put it back in savings if we're not splitting up.
I said- Ok. I do not plan on leaving the relationship if we are both committed to putting in all the work needed to get us to a good, healthy, happy place. And you?
He thought I was meaning that he would have to go back to counseling & got a bit irritated (he is adamant of not repeating that painful experience after he feels he got burned after going through all that & I have said I would not ask him to go again). I explained that I wasn't implying counseling when I said work... Then I said- Well I am not asking you to go back to counseling nor will I ask... I'm sorry if I gave you that indication that I was going in that direction. What I meant by work is each make considerable effort to meet the needs of each other while also making considerable effort to not cause each other further harm.
He said he is happy to do that.
So ... Not really sure what I am feeling right now. I guess I am very mixed. Last night I was just thinking how much work we are really going to have to do to get to where we need to be & the thought was so overwhelming that I just felt a bit hopeless & that giving up would certainly be easier in many ways. And also to think that he is probably (almost certainly) not as committed to doing the hard work as I am... Even more overwhelming to think he could ever get to that place. I just don't see it.
He has again unlocked his phone & I looked at it last night. I know I need to stop & not snoop but old habits die hard. So I found a call to OW on Tuesday for about 2 min. (Tuesday late evening is when we had the long discussion & made up from my outburst on Friday. So this call was before all that.) basically confirmed what I already knew- they are still in communication. But I was surprised it was a call as that will be recorded on the phone bill... I thought they were just keeping to emails or fb messages or something. Happy to say that I remained calm & overall am not letting it bother me right now. There will be a time to deal with that.
He thought I was meaning that he would have to go back to counseling & got a bit irritated (he is adamant of not repeating that painful experience after he feels he got burned after going through all that & I have said I would not ask him to go again). I explained that I wasn't implying counseling when I said work... Then I said- Well I am not asking you to go back to counseling nor will I ask... I'm sorry if I gave you that indication that I was going in that direction.
I would have encouraged you not to paint yourself into any corners. Are you REALLY okay with never being able to enlist the help of a good MC to help you two guys? It's always best to leave all options on the table, like:
"Well I can't push you to do something you're not comfortable with. I can only let you know what *I* need in the relationship, and I'm not saying I'll never need the help of a good, mutually-agreeable MC for us to talk to and help us, but if you're not comfortable with that right now, I'll drop it."
Starsky
That would have been a good thing to say Starsky. We have been through a lot of marriage counseling & he is so done with that since I still managed to hurt him after doing all that work. So when he got so mad at me & really blew up about me asking a couple times to go back to counseling, I told him I wouldn't ask again. Part of me has hoped he would get to the point that he would suggest it... But i know it is wishful thinking.
I a really struggling today. I have a lot of added stress with getting ready for the trip & 2 dogs sick (one we have to figure out when to put to sleep) to deal with... And then I am hornonal... So today I have just been so sad about having such a messed up marriage. It is really getting me down today. Normally I can tough that part out... Or I am so deep in panic that there is no room for sadness. But today I am sad and feel like it would be easier to just start over with someone who wanted me and would be there for me. I am feeling really alone & sad about not having my h there to lean on or even talk to about all this. I am just having a tough time today and a bit of a pity party.
New day & feeling better. I knew what was contributing to my overwhelming feelings of sadness but that didn't make it any easier. I was trying not to cry last night but then couldn't help it. I went and hid in the bathroom for a bit. Then came out to cook dinner. Couldn't totally stop the crying & H noticed. He asked what was wrong & I told him that I just was having a tough day. He asked if there was anything he could do & I said that I didn't think so (even though my mind is saying: yeah... you can totally do something & that would be to be 100% committed to working on the relationship & never talk to OW or any other female for that matter in a intimate way again... but I didn't say that). He gave me a side hug as I was preparing food. So at least he is offering some care. If I would have been crying a few weeks ago he would have just ignored me, I'm sure.
H texted a few minutes ago and asked if I wanted to have a weekend away in the fall in Denver due to some airline deal he had... I am not sure if he is meaning a weekend away for the two of us or with the kids. I said yeah I would be interested if we could work it in the budget. Haven't heard anything back from that.
More vacation prep today. Trying to not get too stressed about all that is on my plate in addition to my reservations about this long vacation together. Hoping he limits his phone use and we can enjoy the time away. Regardless, I'll have to focus on having the best time I can, at least with the kids.
Hope
Pack your stuff and move out of his head!@!
Take things as they come and build on the positives ... stop focusing on the negative stuff. HE asked you to go on a little get-a-way ... there are numerous people here who would LOVE that.
Ok, he means for just us. So that is a positive. He is making plans for just us for the future. I am happy about this.
Hope
Pack your stuff and move out of his head!@!
Take things as they come and build on the positives ... stop focusing on the negative stuff. HE asked you to go on a little get-a-way ... there are numerous people here who would LOVE that.
Yes, you are soooo right ... i Know... but it is so hard. I was thinking yesterday that maybe it is easier for men to go through this kind of situation b/c the woman is naturally one who likes to talk a lot and talk through problems. My H is definitely not a talker & so it feels like it might take forever for him to talk out what he needs to w/o my prompting. OF course I know to wait & let him address it as he is ready but I think him being a man & not good already at talking, especially when that talk is around emotions... I just think it really adds to the time factor and my needed patience!
Yeah us guys have it made
Yeah us guys have it made
haha! No offense meant... I know you have very different struggles that are equally as difficult. I just wish I had a talker of a H right now.
Hope,
Sorry you had such a bad day, and sorry about your doggie.
It is soooo hard knowing when to say "when" with our little fur families, but your pet will let you know. I'm glad to hear you're feeling better today.
(((hugs)))
starsky
In the beginning I leased space in my Hs head. I fretted over where he was, what was he doing, what was he thinking, how did he feel, what did he mean, etc. Honey, that rental space was the most costly thing I've ever paid. I stayed in a constant state of confusion, disbelief, anger & sadness. I moved out of his head & back into mine. You get so wrapped up in his thoughts & feelings(what you THINK are his but really are just projections of what YOU think) that you aren't fully exploring & dealing with your own.
Hope,
Sorry you had such a bad day, and sorry about your doggie.
It is soooo hard knowing when to say "when" with our little fur families, but your pet will let you know. I'm glad to hear you're feeling better today.
(((hugs)))
starsky
Thanks, Starsky. We have 3 dogs that are getting up there in age and I know it is only natural that they start to have some health problems. But it is still tough. Especially going away for 2+ weeks & worrying about how this one particular dog will fair while we are gone. I do hope she does ok while we are gone & we can continue watching her for signs that she is ready to go. I'd hate to not be here when the time comes and hate for a dog sitter to have to deal with that.
In the beginning I leased space in my Hs head. I fretted over where he was, what was he doing, what was he thinking, how did he feel, what did he mean, etc. Honey, that rental space was the most costly thing I've ever paid. I stayed in a constant state of confusion, disbelief, anger & sadness. I moved out of his head & back into mine. You get so wrapped up in his thoughts & feelings(what you THINK are his but really are just projections of what YOU think) that you aren't fully exploring & dealing with your own.
Yes... I can relate to that. I have definitely done a lot of that. I think I am doing better this week. I discovered that he did call the OW on Tuesday for a 2 min conversation & while it has bothered me, I've done an ok job at not letting it rule me. Who knows why they talked. It was not appropriate... he should not be talking to her at all (except work related & I hate that is even there)... but there will be a time and place to deal with that. I have also done better since Wednesday at just calming down and not worrying so much about what he is doing or if he is talking to her. It does still cross my mind, but I let it go. I do want to know what he is thinking... but I will just have to wait until he is ready to tell me.
For all you know, he called to tell her NC, it might have been about sneaking off to a hotel it could've been about trash day, snow day, free beer day or an alien landed in the middle of the highway & started doing the funky chicken....for you it should be I don't know & I can't worry about it.
You're doing really well, keep it going!!! (((Hugs))))
For all you know, he called to tell her NC, it might have been about sneaking off to a hotel it could've been about trash day, snow day, free beer day or an alien landed in the middle of the highway & started doing the funky chicken....for you it should be I don't know & I can't worry about it.
You're doing really well, keep it going!!! (((Hugs))))
That thought did cross my mind. Unlikely but possible. But you are right, i have no idea what the heck they talked about. I am pretty ok with it for now. Really focusing on there being a time and place to deal with that now is not the time.
How's getting ready for the trip going? I love planning & packing for a trip. It's the unpacking after I don't enjoy...lol
Well... we're back. Today is the first day back to a regular routine (we arrived back home sunday night but H took off Monday to work on getting things unpacked & done around the house).
So that is 17 days of being around each other (with the kids) without many of the daily stressors and I think it did us some good. I think it gave us a good opportunity to have fun together and reconnect (as well as we could w/ kid distractions). I think there has been quite a bit of progress in this time... all the affection that we had found for each other while working through the affair (but lost when things fell off the track) is back. He says I love you on his own & started saying it on his own.
He has made several little comments that have been meaningful... one time we were in the car & he fixed something for our little boy & our little boy was surprised he'd fixed it. H says, "Daddy can fix a lot of things." Then he turned somewhat to me and said, "I wish Mommy thought so." I took this to mean that he wants to fix things and he is maybe feeling a little uncertain to whether I believe he can.
Another time we were in the car and one of the kids was saying something was Daddy's favorite. He then said, "No, Mommy is my favorite, then you guys, then the dogs.... " This is significant because during our affair recovery time while working with the marriage counselor, I had sent him an article about how you should put your partner first ahead of your children. It listed many reasons why you should such as the couple came first before the kids & you need to take care of that so the marriage will last, etc. I sent it to H & he read it & agreed that the article made sense but he said he didn't know if he'd ever be able to make that transition. And this fact has been painfully obvious as he puts them first in so many day to day things. I will also admit that when they were babies & toddlers, they were put first ahead of my h by me... and I put h on the back burner. I have apologized for this as I now see how detrimental this was. But even when we were in marriage counseling, he was doing it only for the kids. So... I think him vocalizing this shift, even if he is not 100% feeling it, is a positive thing & a sign that he is moving in that direction.
We have not had any relationship talks such as discussing what has happened & why or whether or not he is maintaining contact w/ the OW. I have not had any indication that he is communicating with the OW during the past 17 days.
I have been really worried about getting back to the real world & talked some with my IC yesterday about this. I feel better about it today & so far have been fine and I have not been getting myself all worked up about what he could be doing while he is away. I do have the sense that there will be hard days to come but for now I'm focusing on the positives.
I mentioned a few things about His Needs, Her Needs to him during our trip & he began reading the book a bit in the car near the end of our trip. He seemed to be a bit more attentive after reading what he read and he even made a comment about how he hasn't been as good as he used to be about giving me attention.
So all in all, things are going pretty well. I am pretty sure we'll have more ups & downs & I am not all certain how to handle conversations that need to be had or exactly when to have them... but for now that is ok. I think we needed time to make lots of deposits into each others love banks and I think we need to focus on that for a little while longer. My IC thinks the conversation about contact w/ the OW needs to come when I am doing OK. I think I was looking for the relationship to be better to have that conversation but I can see how waiting until I have made improvements in myself would be more within my control and focus.
Any words of wisdom for this stage in the game are welcome.
So now it's back to laundry & house stuff and day to day stressors... which sadly includes putting one of our dogs to sleep this afternoon.
Day 4 of back to normal & I think things are going pretty well. I was feeling a little panicky yesterday ... not sure anything really triggered it but I started to worry about him & her. But it didn't get out of control... I refocused & got back to keeping busy. Then yesterday late afternoon it was getting to be a bit later than the time H normally gets off work (he has no set off time w/ this job... which is an issue for me now as I see how it enabled him to spend a lot of time w/ the OW w/o me realizing he wasn't at work... w/ his last job it was a set schedule & he was home at the same time every day.) & I started to get upset & I thought about asking him to start texting me or calling me when he was caught up at work later than normal. But then about 10 minutes later he called to say he was coming home & I was ok. He explained about work being crazy busy & some various things he was dealing with so I didn't say anything about texting/calling.
I think part of me worries that if I don't say anything, things will get out of control (for me) when he is later than normal. But then I also worry that if I say something that I'll be stirring up all the bad emotions & it'll throw us off track of our current progress.
So trying to figure out where the balance is of asking for things but also moving on. I know I have to work on trusting him & should not get worried until he does something concretely untrustworthy. But I also would feel better with certain assurances.
This morning started as an off day... I'll blame hormones a bit but it seems like before I was just grumpy for no reason, now I am the same but I also take on this hopeless feeling... like our relationship is never going to be what I want it to be & H is never going to be the husband I want him to be. Those were the thoughts running through my mind. Of course H knows me so well that he knew I was grumpy today & made several comments about it but I just said I was tired or trying to wake up. Thankfully I came out of my funk by a little after lunch time. Weirdly I came out of it after purposefully getting busy & doing some nice things for h. (My thoughts had been more along the lines of- why did he not hug me this morning, why doesn't he ever sit next to me on the couch, etc.)
Progress update...
Today I looked back at my list of DB goals I had when things went south for H & I... when things got really bad (in June & July). I am happy to see that all my goals have been achieved.
-Text/call during the day to see how things are going or to chat about misc.
-Say goodbye when he leaves.
-Kiss goodbye & hello.
-Provide ways to make me feel safe/secure (unlock phone, friend on fb, unfriend OW on fb, access to phone bill, inform of schedule, communicate whereabouts)
~~~ I don't have all of these things yet... but most. I think I would be able to access the phone bill but haven't brought that up in conversation yet b/c I'm not ready to broach that yet... one day it will come & I can look back at all the calls so I am not too worried about that right now. He doesn't always tell me his schedule in advance but will if I ask & he volunteers the time he is going to try to get off work on many occasions. ~~~~
-Talk about the future including me.
-Plan a family activity with me.
-Take steps to schedule a date with me.
He is doing a lot more than what I had set as goals such as...
-saying "I love you" often
-Giving lots of affection including long hugs before he gets out of bed in the morning.
-He wants to buy me things (went out of his way to buy me a bracelet on vacation & has been looking for a necklace I said I wanted... when we were not going good he was very tight on money not even wanting to go out to eat or get coffee much less buy me things... I also think this might be a way he is trying to make up to me a little bit.)
-He has said out loud to the kids that I am #1 & kids are right behind that (big deal for him to say it, even if he isn't quite there yet)
-He is making time to do things with me.
-He is taking me on a trip in a couple months for just us (w/o kids).
So really... I think we are doing good. All that is lacking is a conversation about boundaries and ongoing conversations about meeting each others needs (which we have touched on). Whenever I start to feel anxious about the OW I remind myself of all the positive changes & try to reassure myself that he could not be maintaining an affair while putting so much into our marriage (sometimes I convince myself better than others).
We definitely have more work to do and must keep our marriage in focus always... but I'm happy to be here rather than where we were a month or two ago.
I am sorry to hear about your dog. My dog got hurt this week but the vet said he will make a full recovery. It amazing how deeply they find their way into your heart. Again sorry to read the news.
I am sorry to hear about your dog. My dog got hurt this week but the vet said he will make a full recovery. It amazing how deeply they find their way into your heart. Again sorry to read the news.
Thank you. It was very tough to make the decision to let her go but it was the best decision for her. We got her when we were not even a year into our marriage so it is sad for many reasons. I am glad your pup will make a full recovery!!
Hi, my name is hopeOK & i am a glutton for punishment.
So for some strange reason I started thinking about fb & my h's page. As a refresher, he unfriended me after reading the hurtful things I said to my sister about this & he friend the OW. (He has since friended me & unfriended her.) So I thought... I wonder if he took down any of the ugly things he posted while we were not friends (things I knew were targeted at me, even though I was supposedly not seeing them... although I'm sure he knew i was.) SO I started to look back. Came to one that was a repost of a list of things that make someone happy. The last one was "hearing the smile in your voice". My thought that he wasn't meaning me... we were not talking & if we did happen to talk on the phone (rare) I was definitely not smiling & our conversations were strictly business. So I know he was meaning OW (Ok, mind reading but I'm pretty confident... he is not one to talk on the phone to lots of ppl ... not at all.) which means he was talking to her on the phone. Ok, I already know this. But it still puts me in a panic and feeling poorly. And I did it to myself by looking up his fb & scrolling through a lot to get to that point.
Another thing that is bugging me is that on his fb it says married since & then the date but it doesn't say married to me. I am pretty sure at some point it said we were married to each other. Maybe it came off when he unfriended me. Do I add him back onto mine that says, "married to" or do I just leave it? Even if it is all unintentional, it stings. Also it makes me think that he doesn't want others who happen on his page to see who he is married to... although there are pictures of us together w/ me tagged all over the place. So clearly this is irrational, right? It is like I feel a need to mark him as mine to prevent something from happening... but that would still depend on his choices... not some silly fb thing. Ugh. I can see I am being so silly but it has still caused my mood to plummet today.
Also thinking today... I really feel the need to one day ask him about what happened when we were on the outs. Why he started up talking to her (even as just friends) again, if he still communicates w/ her outside of work related stuff (this part of the conversation will definitely happen), how he communicated with her, what went on, etc. But do I really need to know all of that or is it just my attempt to feel better about all that & be reassured (even though the info may not be reassuring)? What do I REALLY need to know???
Things are going so well for us when we are together... but when we are not all these bad thoughts and feelings come up. Sometimes I can calm myself down (thinking about all the positives, thinking about how hard it would be to maintain an active affair while he is putting so much into our relationship, etc) but it gets the best of me sometimes.
You're overthinking the FB stuff way too much. People like and share things on it all the time and don't even give it a second thought. Maybe he did feel that way when he shared it, maybe he just liked what it said and it meant nothing to him. I don't go back and delete things I've shared because its just not on my mind later. I obsessed over things like that also before I removed W from FB and I realized she just clicked and shared chit all the time. Yes, many things were how she left but not all. Trying to figure it out only makes you go crazy.
Choice is to either obsess over everything he likes and shares and make yourself insane or just let it go.
When you unfriend someone tags are removed for everything I think, even pictures.
Yes, Fogg, I know you are right. I need to not put any weight into that... it was then, & this is now. He might have been thinking of her, but might not. And if he was... again, that was then. He probably wouldn't go back & delete stuff, I'm sure. And yes, it made me go crazy then & I consciously looked it back up to make myself go crazy again. That must be the definition of insanity!! But I am going to not do that again.
Yeah, I'm sure you are right about the tagging & that is why I am no longer listed as the one he is married to. Ugh. I hate fb a lot of the time!
We had a really good evening last night. There was some slight shift in H yesterday that I first noticed with his texts. He had put a smiley face on several texts... and they were not joking texts in which he might usually put a smiley face.
So I said, "You are all about the smiley faces today! :)"
He said, ":)
:)"
I said, "Happy today?"
He said, "I'm excited for our trip and to go see a movie next week. Is that ok?"
I said, "Yes, more than ok. I am glad to know that."
Then last night he brought it up again & said that we were going to have a lot of fun on our trip & he was looking forward to it. Then he said, too bad you're not going to have any fun. (This is typical H... I think this is his insecurity & how he tries to get reassurance?) I said I was looking forward to it too & that he should not be so negative with his predictions.
In addition to that, he seemed extra caring, attentive, and affectionate all evening. We played a little video game together (I've stopped saying no when he asks me... I kinda suck at it but after reading His Needs, Her Needs I see that recreational activities are important to a lot of men & this is something he enjoys doing. So I've been making the effort to get better at it & I don't turn him down anymore. I think this has been something he has noticed.). After dinner he came and sat by me on the porch swing w/o being on his phone. And just his overall mood was very caring and sweet. Not sure what the switch was from... but it was nice.
And yet... still one quick thought popped up- maybe something good happened to him today in regards to the OW... maybe that is why he is in such a good mood. I had to try to reassure myself that if that was the case, he wouldn't be putting so much effort into our relationship... he wouldn't be so loving and he wouldn't want extra time with me. I also think back to the affair & try to remember if there was times where he was extra nice & I don't recall any. I do recall him coming home from work & ripping into me about something I'd done or not done. (It seems like during the affair we got along less ... I guess b/c he was keeping resentments active as justification for what he was doing... I dunno.) So anyway, letting myself believe he wants a happy, healthy marriage with me.
Hi there again,
I was able to read up on your sitch, hopeOK. I too sometimes thought and sometimes still think negatively- why is he being good to me? what's the catch? did things go sour with his "friend"? Our MC told me to stop and think more positively- probably the MC is working; maybe i've changed for the better; he realizes and appreciates what he's got now. She said whenever I get negative feelings to stop and be thankful that he didn't really leave, he is choosing to fix the marriage, etc. Think more positive thoughts and move forward.
Maybe this will help you too.
Hoping for the best for you and your sitch!
Kippz... yeah, I think you are right & that should be the focus. There is a lot of good going on for us & he is really making an effort. We are happy when we are together. I need to focus on that. It is almost like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop! But what kind of life is that to always question the good? I do need to work on this.
When we were on the outs, he resumed his friendship w/ the OW. He also called someone that he admitted to flirting with in the past. Not sure what else he did, I wasn't able to snoop as well as he changed all his passwords & I couldn't access the phone account. I know he rationalized all he did and felt like I had hurt him so why should he care about hurting me. I understand why he did what he did but it still hurt.
I have this big desire to know all that went on in that 6 week or so period when we were doing very poorly. I have not asked or brought it up other than a few times when we were on the outs I accused him of doing a few things that I really didn't have much proof on. So that caused us to go further apart & him more mad at me.
I've been thinking a lot about this... and how important is it for me to know what he did? Should I ever ask? Should I let it go knowing this was a bad time for us & he did things b/c he was so angry with me? Or should I ask so I'll know & won't have anything come bite me later on. Or should I ask so I don't think the worst?
Or should I not ask & just stick with setting the boundaries of no outside relationships (which means no friendship w/ OW)?
hopeOK -
If I told you he flirted with a few women but nothing further- would that be OK?
If I told you he kissed a few women but nothing further - would that be OK?
If I told you he slept with one woman - would that be OK?
If I told you he slept with several women - would that be OK?
I guess, my point is - is there something that he could have done in that time that would change how you act now? Or is it just a need to feel in control of the situation?
hopeOK -
If I told you he flirted with a few women but nothing further- would that be OK?
If I told you he kissed a few women but nothing further - would that be OK?
If I told you he slept with one woman - would that be OK?
If I told you he slept with several women - would that be OK?
I guess, my point is - is there something that he could have done in that time that would change how you act now? Or is it just a need to feel in control of the situation?
Hmmmm... change how I act.... well to the first one no, I expect that happened. All the rest would require some discussion, I think. Sex a bit more discussion than the kissing. Why he thought that was ok. But would I leave? No, not if he is not going to do that again and sets boundaries to prevent that from happening in the future.
I know I struggle a lot with trying to feel some control over all this & I realize logically that it is impossible as far as what he does goes. So my motives on all the knowledge are a bit blurry for me.
Last night I was feeling a bit down. Nothing H did... he has continued to be very sweet, thoughtful, affectionate, & caring. He is really making an effort to get in quality time with me. Yesterday he was on the sofa & said, "Maybe you'll come in here to sit by me when you are done." then he asked if I wanted to watch some of the tv show we've been watching together. This is a big deal because when we were working on the marriage in counseling, one of the last things we were working on that I communicated was still a big deal to me and not being met is quality time together. So now he seems to be making a bigger effort than when we were in counseling.
This morning when he left he said he was looking forward to 3p & I asked him why & he said he was looking forward to seeing us. (Although I am thinking I am not too excited about that b/c I am then going to my OBGYN apt for my yearly & for STD testing.
)
Later this morning he texted to see if my head was feeling better (I had a headache this morning... I think I was clenching my jaw last night, I must be pretty anxious about my apt this afternoon, I'm thinking.)
So ... he is doing all that he should be doing, I think. But last night I had trouble going to sleep & just was so uptight. Partly probably due to my upcoming apt & having to ask for STD testing. So shameful.
And I hate that he has put me in this situation. But also my stress is related to needing to find out if he is still having conversations w/ the OW...
So last night while I was up I thought... instead of planning out this whole long conversation & having a good reason for asking about OW all lined out to H... why don't I just come out & ask? "Can I ask you a question? Are you still talking to OW outside of work?" Then be done with it! Then the boundary talk can come later but at least I'll have that out & find out what I've been wanting to know.
My IC says to ask when I have worked on myself enough to be able to deal with that conversation. I think that means that when I can control myself and not unload on him. I think I can do that now. If he says he is still talking to her, I think I will choose to not say anything at that moment & rethink my whole plan of action b/c things are not going as well as I had thought. If he says no, then I would want to know when/how he ended that friendship (after starting it back up when we fell out). Is that an ok thing to want to know?
Good idea to just ask or no??
What's the point? If he is, he could just lie to you...
I think you let it be and watch his actions, and when the time is right I would ask him about openness in the relationship and ask him if he minded showing you his phone.
And besides the point, the phone itself is a huge tell. Is he taking his phone everywhere, is the phone locked? Does he ever leave the phone out of his sight?
You will know if something is up, for now just STFU and go with the program.
If you start with the jealousy thing, you know what will hit the fan...
No- I have access to his phone. He leaves it around & I know the code. I have checked it here & there & have found nothing. But he could still be using some other email, gotten really good at deleting messages, or talking to her only on his work phone or work computer.
Yes, he could just lie.
Yeah, so STFU, and live a little. Face it, there is nothing you can do to stop him if he puts his mind to it. And you cannot hover 24/7 over him. And even if you could, what kind of life would that be?
Yeah, I agree... I do not want to waste my time that way either. I have to begin to trust and wait until he proves to be untrustworthy. But as we are working on our relationship, I think certain discussions will have to happen such as the boundary one. And in that boundary discussion I suppose it would need to come out if he is continuing to maintain a "friendship" w/ the OW. So I'm back to square one of not just coming out & asking but letting a boundary discussion lead us there. But still not sure when that will happen. We are both avoid-avoid... him more so... so I do not see him striking up a relationship conversation, especially when he is getting all his needs met. It is me that has the need for safety and security that is not getting met.
Today I had a phone conversation w/ Dr. Harley (of the His Needs, Her Needs fame). I was hoping to get some help with dealing with the daily insecurities of what my h is doing & the triggers that come up for me & cause some anxiety.
Instead I got more anxiety piled up on top of the low level anxiety I feel when h is at work. Basically he said that the OW is like a drug. He is seeing her at work so he is bound to go back to her. Also that she should be exposed to her husband. I knew he felt this way & was kind of expecting that. I do not plan to do any exposure at this point (6 months after the affair ended) but if it ever happened again I would definitely be likely to do it.
But h getting another job is out of the question right now b/c of a number of circumstances. I keep sending OW vibes to quit & go somewhere else but that doesn't seem to be working.
So now I'm feeling horrible and a panicked... like I am destined to repeat all this again b/c he works w/ the OW. And I still haven't brought myself to bring up boundaries & to ask if he is still talking w/ her outside of work.
I just don't know what to do. My first instinct is to talk to h tonight about not feeling safe, boundaries, & ask if he is still talking to her. But then I think my anxiety I am feeling is bound to come out & I'll really blow the conversation.
So thinking I need to try & sit on this. But how to be "ok" & not feel so hopeless, I do not know. Wishing I'd never emailed him.
Look, you know what stinks even more if you mix it? Yeah you do, so don't!!!
The OW is his problem and do not go on making it your own. If he's hellbent on contacting her, he WILL FIND a way, frankly speaking, he might be romancing her in the copy room as we speak, and you cannot do anything.
So for PEte's sake, give it a rest. Slap a boundary on his behaviour if it affects you, otherwise do not.
So take your eyes off him and go on with your life, let him decide if he want's to join you...
Yeah, sleepless night last night. Haven't had one of those for a few weeks. Really having a hard time shaking this one. H was very attentive and said "I love you" many times last night (as I got in & out of the bed trying to take something that would help me sleep) & was affectionate. The things that normally help reassure me. But it didn't work last night. I vaccinated between thoughts of him already involved with her & thoughts of when he will become involved with her again. And thoughts of - how am I going to live like this w/ this fear periodically rearing it's ugly head? Do I want to live like this?
I know I have a choice in what I focus on and most of the time I am pretty in control of all that. I've been doing really good with letting these types of thoughts leave pretty soon after they enter. But this talk w/ Dr. Harley has really done me in though. Hearing a professional who is a subject matter expert (although I do realize some of his ideas are a bit radical) tell me that h is very susceptible to have another affair has me pretty convinced of that truth.
Look, you know what stinks even more if you mix it? Yeah you do, so don't!!!
The OW is his problem and do not go on making it your own. If he's hellbent on contacting her, he WILL FIND a way, frankly speaking, he might be romancing her in the copy room as we speak, and you cannot do anything.
So for PEte's sake, give it a rest. Slap a boundary on his behaviour if it affects you, otherwise do not.
So take your eyes off him and go on with your life, let him decide if he want's to join you...
But if we are supposedly working on our marriage, he has chosen to join me. He hasn't given me any indication that he is doing something he shouldn't. But I just feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
It's hard HopeOK. How about this....what things would you expect of him if you were in a trusting relationship? Make a list. Say 7 things that you would expect.
Then see which he is doing and which he is not.
Then consider how to approach the gaps.
It's hard HopeOK. How about this....what things would you expect of him if you were in a trusting relationship? Make a list. Say 7 things that you would expect.
Then see which he is doing and which he is not.
Then consider how to approach the gaps.
Ok... my list:
He would be affectionate.
He is doing this.He would make time for us to have quality time together.
He is doing this. I would like a little bit more but figuring out the babysitting & affording that is tricky. But we are making lots of progress in this area.He would tell me he loves me.
He is doing this.He would spend less time on his electronics.
He is doing this.He would find ways to reassure me & to make me feel secure/safe.
He is sometimes doing this. Usually only if he notices I am a little bit distant. And he is not verbally reassuring me. He would talk with me about his thoughts and feelings regularly, we would have intimate conversations, & he would check in with me to see how I think things are going or to make sure my needs are getting met.
He is not doing this. We don't have any relationship talks, really. I brought up him reading His Needs, Her Needs on vacation & why I thought it was meaningful for me (He agreed to take a look at it so he could tell me what he thought. He has read 1/2 & has not initiated any conversation about it.) but that was the last & only conversation that had any depth at all.He would not have relationships w/ other women and have clear boundaries that he would communicate to me.
Not sure if he has a friendship w/ OW. He is not communicating anything to me on this & I have not asked.Ok.... now... how to approach the gaps! A conversation?
Had my IC yesterday and we spent the whole time discussing ways to communicate w/ H. I have difficulty with getting my thoughts across & seem to say things the wrong way a lot of the time so the practice was good. My therapist thought it was a good idea to talk to H about my desire to talk about the R... instead of it being a topic that is avoided. She also helped me figure out a way to ask about if there is any friendship going on w/ the OW.
Last night I did tell him that I was having a tough time on Monday w/ not feeling secure and sometimes I just need to be reassured. I also said it would be nice if we could discuss the relationship from time to time and he was open to that. He did think that things are going well and he said he is trying to be a good husband. I asked him if I was meeting all his needs and he said yes. He asked if he was meeting mine and I said a lot of them. He asked for more on that and I told him what he was doing a really good job on (affection, quality time). I didn't tell him what was not being met (safety/security, intimate conversation)... I did not want to push everything out in one conversation. I also did not ask about OW... that will have to wait for another time. I am nervous about that one and not quite ready.
I still have so many doubts. I want to move on and quit focusing so much on them... but gosh, the struggle is real! I have this little voice in my head that is saying I deserve more... I should have someone who is head over heals for me and wants to bend over backwards to do all that they can to make the relationship a good one. I get mad that h doesn't seem to appreciate having me. I am attractive and fit (he gets told by his male friends/ family that I am hot -literally I have read of 2 comments of this nature on his fb in the last 2 months & had someone say it to him in front of me a couple months ago, I take care of the home (making sure it is mostly always clean/tidy) and his children really pretty well. I homeschool so I am also in charge of educating the children (& I go to school part time myself working on getting another degree). I cook meals every night. I am making a lot of effort in the areas I have not been good at (complimenting him, being thoughtful, etc) Things are exciting in bed (now). (sorry tmi) Then I remind myself that there was a time when I was in a place where I didn't appreciate him, I didn't put in much effort, I did my own thing. So I vacillate between some sort of entitlement and a feeling of this being my just punishment & I have to do the time.
When things get really low, I either think he is absolutely cheating & I must play detective & expose him (I have no evidence or even really suspicion... just fear) or I think that maybe I need to move on, end the relationship & start over with someone else fresh so I don't have to have all these daily doubts and fears & I could have someone who really appreciates me (doesn't have the resentments as well & I can make sure to do the right things to protect the relationship now that I know). Now these are my extremes & do not happen often... but they are there. I do not act on them but they are there.
Clearly I need to find ways to stay busier... I have way too much idle time on my hands while I am at home all day w/ the kids and I focus way too much on the relationship. I do have school I could be doing but my obsessing over the R always comes first. Ugh. When did I become so pathetic.
Had a rough day yesterday with just a lot of stuff going on. Then H went out to the range w/ a co-worker (I saw the messages about the outing so I am confident he was there w/ this male co-worker) & was home late. Then while he was at the range, I saw that he'd been on fb. Now logically, this could be just him wasting a bored spare minute looking on fb. I do this. Lots of ppl do this. But in my insecure and paranoid mind I thought- OW is messaging w/ him on fb messenger. So this made my bad day extend into a grumpy evening. H noticed & commented but I just said I was tired.
Later that night in bed, I just decided to ask my burning question. The night wasn't going to get any worse... I didn't think anyway. So I asked him if he was still talking w/ the OW outside of professional work stuff. He responded with an adamant no. He then asked how long I had been wanting to ask that & he seemed really surprised that I had been keeping this for so long. Then I asked him how he ended it & he said he told her that they couldn't talk anymore. I wanted to press for more details but fought against it thinking that this was just out of curiosity rather than a need to know. He asked me if I had been grumpy b/c I thought he wasn't really at the range. I said no, I was pretty certain that he was at the range.
He then put his arm around me and did a good job at comforting me. I feel really pretty good about this whole end to the evening. He could have been lying... very possible. But I'm going to choose to believe him until he indicates otherwise. I really need to stop worrying about it so much.
On a positive note, we have a date tonight. The first ever where we are using a non-family member to babysit our kids. Since we are not near family anymore & only visit family once a month, if we want to make time for us we had to take the plunge. I think this will be good for us... I just wish we could afford to have weekly dates! Babysitters are expensive!!
Help. So we are working on our marriage... he is making a good overall effort. I am making an effort until I sabotage things w/ my insecurities. How do you stop the negative interpretations of actions, the insecurities related to the relationship, and the strong urge to pursue?
He gets out of bed w/o giving me a hug & a kiss & I turn it into (in my head) him possibly starting another affair or him tiring of trying & tiring of me. I can come back and say to myself in a more logical thought process- he has a migraine & didn't sleep well... so that is the reason. (But then I find out he didn't sleep well b/c he was worrying about something.. he says it is work stuff but then I question that... is he worrying about the OW or is he worrying about how he isn't feeling anything for me?) So I am paying acute attention to every minor shift in behavior and attitude and trying to interpret that (insecure side has its reasons/meanings it attaches to it & then logical brain side has to talk the insecure side down). This is madness & not enjoyable for me but I cannot quite figure out how to stop it. This morning I just said, "What about my hug/kiss? Did you forget about me?" I'm sure this is definitely not helpful for creating loving feelings from him but if I don't say anything then I feel bad as well... thinking he is definitely not feeling it for me.
So then I think I need to run in the opposite direction. Do my own thing & back off of him. But that is what I did that got us into this mess. I pursued my own happiness outside of the relationship & our marriage suffered. So where is the happy medium?
I struggle with similar stuff. I find GAL is the best way to take my mind off how H behaves towards me. I also find that me worrying and thinking about it actively pushes H away, because he can read my face. I do think it's a curse of the female brain.
Can you make yourself a routine that fills those empty spots where you wait for H to do something? Get out of bed first - meditate - journal - go for a brisk walk or work out - somehow take control so you don't have time to wait for his hug. Give him a quick hug instead! :-)
That was good advice, I should listen to that myself!
Look, you know what stinks even more if you mix it? Yeah you do, so don't!!!
The OW is his problem and do not go on making it your own. If he's hellbent on contacting her, he WILL FIND a way, frankly speaking, he might be romancing her in the copy room as we speak, and you cannot do anything.
So for PEte's sake, give it a rest. Slap a boundary on his behaviour if it affects you, otherwise do not.
So take your eyes off him and go on with your life, let him decide if he want's to join you...
Great advice from VAPO
IF you want to try THIS SITE"s approach then start following it. Call a DB coach and stop mixing approaches to working on your marriage. Of the many things I did to help our m, getting a coach was the single best thing I did, and NOT veering off course with other methods that can undermine this site's.
THIS SITE and its founder do NOT support exposure and there are a ton of reasons for that (which are in the book). There are a few people around here who disagree with MWD and they support exposure.
They were asked not to post OPPOSING suggestions here and on occasion, some have been banned, but returned with new screen names.
Don't get me wrong, I would encourage you questioning things --HERE, and often. Challenge things if you want but listen too.
RE the FB thing, seems to me you are banging your head against the wall. If I recall correctly, the FB issue was all old information that you invited back into your world and then felt hurt all over again. Wondering why he has not named you as his wife is just really striking me as too controlling.
He's married. He has announced it so the FB world knows. Are you concerned that OW believes he's actually secretly married to her, and not you? Is she insane?
The words "From this day forward" are in many wedding vows. Start living by those. I think they're brilliant.
And Lose the scorecard. Don't go picking it up again the next day! Believe me, I did that and scorecards and measuring things always always harms the marriage.
Plus it's as if we don't realize our spouses have their own scorecards and on theirs, we are NOT "Winning"! (We don't measure the same, don't note the same things don't read into what WE say or do, etc)
You are being your own worst enemy. Get out of HIS head and start LIVING a GOOD LIFE
which is for you AND so happens to be attractive too.
Can you see someone about the anxiety too? It can be very hard to think straight when you are not sleeping well or eating right. Anxiety can really set us back.
Sometimes Your wording here makes me feel as if you are acting like a Stepford wife barely in control of a forced smile (sorry if that stings).
That is NOT a fun way to live. To me, your h sounds as if he is doing his absolute best.
He fixed something for you son and said "Wish mommy could see that I can fix things" and you said nothing??
I think he was begging for some words of affirmation there.
Did you read the Five Love Languages? I recommend it to all couples. But look at it from his angle too.
I mean, I can see that you are reading INTO HIS behaviors and studying what you think of HIS feelings/thoughts/behaviors and choices and what they mean (which he may not even know AND which can change and which are NOT where your focus ought to be now anyhow)
it's like living your life in REACTION TO HIS... which isn't freedom of happiness.
What are you doing to CHANGE YOUR own behaviors?
Merely "not being so angry" isn't exactly a ground breaking improvement, is it? Name some more specific goals you have control over, i.e. your own choices.
Become a woman only a fool would leave.
BE THE BETTER CHOICE.
Then Do Not let the OW live, rent free in your head/heart anymore
She's beneath your attention.
Make sense?
My coach told me to do the following and if need be, try to do them FOR ONE WEEK and then see if you can renew...
1) Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does (and NOT countering with what was left out or done "wrong")
2) Let go of the anger (at least in front of him). If you need to take a long walk (or what I referred to as "fury marches") when you start to obsess, do it. You'll get in shape and that will counter some of your negative emotions. The "I'm hormonal" reason has to be addressed or it acts as a way to justify being unreasonable or even nasty for chunks of time (for the next 2-3 decades of your life AND your h's??)
3) work on FORGIVENESS or you won't make it through this. That may mean daily or even hourly choices, and for me it was a learned skill.
Did you see forgiveness modeled in your childhood? Your parents marriage? What did it look like?
I never saw it. Had to learn it.
The times I felt that it was most hopeless in my marriage, looking back, was when I could not imagine or visualize what forgiveness would look like.
The good news is That begins with US. We can change ourselves so we are NOT powerless. You are not powerless.
Work on forgiveness and here is what I have learned about it...
Holding onto anger to punish someone else (b/c they "don't deserve to be free")
is like lighting yourself on fire, to get smoke in their eyes.
Part of forgiveness means
you don't get to hold this over his head like the sword of Damocles
you don't allow his past "wrongs" to affect how you behave towards him today
(esp while never admitting that you are still punishing him.)
you do Not get to throw it in his face every time you guys fight
which you will do b/c life presents conflicts and throws curve balls all the time.
Maybe HIS fear and insecurity is that you will not ever let go of this...
(how can HE visualize a happy future with you if he believes you'll never let go of it?)
So what are you showing him when you hunt for wrongs done in the past and allow that to be reflected in YOUR present behaviors?
I wasted a year of my life which I'll never get back, by NOT really DBing well.
I also was not fully present for my own children b/c I was too preoccupied with what my h was doing/thinking/feeling/planning... (as if he always knew)
If you really want to give this book and site a real chance, you can't mix it up with contradictory approaches bc it's unfair to all of them. This DB approach worked for me like no other and it improved my life so that regardless of what happened in the marriage, I knew I was going to be more than ok.
Thank God for my DB coach, a real blessing. I highly recommend them.
Also is this now your only thread? I have a very hard time following more than one thread per person.
Anyhow, know this, too. Progress and healing are NOT linear. You will have setbacks. Get back up and keep going.
Good luck
I don't know about jumping out of bed before him when it is 4:20am
... but I have applied this approach when he gets on his phone, just getting up & going somewhere else. I think it does help to focus on what I can do instead of what he is not doing.
Thank you, 25yearsmlc, for your candid advice. I do appreciate it. I was just reading the other day a blog (
https://affairadvice.wordpress.com) written by a guy where he talked a lot about the things you mentioned- forgiveness (being for me, not for him), not continuing to bring it up, etc. So I definitely have been thinking about all of this.
I will say that I generally am happy & in a good mood when he is around. It is when he is off at work that I struggle the most. And a couple of those struggles have resulted in me saying something to H in a non-helpful way which puts him on the defensive. (i.e.- we're never going to watch movies together, I guess & it would be nice if you asked for me when you called & the kids answered.)
So really, I think I do need to stop looking at all he does so critically & focus on what I can do. And I have been thinking a lot about forgiveness... how to go about that. What that looks like. I don't think my parents were a good example of it... they just gave each other the silent treatment when mad & then eventually they stopped being mad about whatever it was.
The other night, we went on a walk while the kids rode their bike. It was a good opportunity for us to talk while doing something which we don't get often b/c the kids are mostly around. But they were ahead riding & he brought up the time right after I found out he had been cheating where I had said- "If only your daughter knew what a F*&$ing a$$h@le you are." I said, "yeah, I was very angry and I felt very betrayed." I let it drop for awhile and we carried on. Then a bit later I said that I was sorry, I didn't mean it but was just trying to hurt him. (It seems like I am the one always apologizing in our relationship these days... but I figure, if it helps him get over that resentment & hurt, then I should do it. And maybe I did apologize for this already & he just wasn't in a place to take it in. At the very least, this might be the universe making me learn the lesson of apologizing as it is something I never experienced growing up & hadn't come easily for me in the past.)
Later as we were walking I asked him what he thought about how things were going. He said he thought things were going really well. I asked him if he ever worried that we were not doing enough to really change what got us in this mess or if he ever worried that we would go back to our old ways. He said no. He said he didn't worry about that b/c of all the big changes we have made- talking more, spending more time together, etc. He asked me what I thought & I said that I don't really know what to think b/c he doesn't share much with me about what is going on in his head. He tried to say that not much was going on there but I know better. And really I tend to think that I am doing a lot of the changes... going to bed when he does, having sex often, dropping all the things I did to get away from him & have fun elsewhere, giving compliments, playing video games w/ him, etc. And yes, I suppose all of this is keeping a scorecard.
So while no monumental thing was discussed, we did have a nice relaxed conversation about us & I did find out he thought we were doing really good. (Where I tend to think we are not doing enough.)
I have not been so focused on whether he is cheating or not... I haven't looked at his phone, email, etc for at least a week. I don't feel compelled to do it. So I think at least this is better. I am laying off the fb stuff. I haven't stalked OW on her fb page in a good while either.
I actually don't bring up the affair anymore... I am just more critical of what he is doing now in regards to me (does he want to talk to me, spend time with me, etc). But I think I tend to have an all or nothing thought process going on. If he doesn't do all of xyz right now, then we are doomed. I know this is faulty thinking but I am a fixer type of person & want to put in maximum effort doing xyz & check it off the list. But I do need to focus on it being a process.
Yes, this is my only thread open right now. Thank you again for you honest advice from your experiences. I really do appreciate it.
Camping this weekend with family.
Everything is going well. I haven't been consumed w/ worry for days. H & I getting along well... Bob of us in good spirits.
We're setting up our tent. I hear his phone ding the fb messenger ding. I tell him. He looks at its then he says nothing. A minute later I ask. He tells me a girls name who he works with.
This particular girl I know he had been friends w/ on fb in the past. I know he has had conversations w/ her (saw her number a few times on our phone bill when h thought I did my have access. I saw that he searched for her name like 6 times on fb all in one day.
So he tells me she is thanking him for helping her out w/ something at work. I asked him if they didn't talk to each other on the phone. He said no. A few minutes later I asked again in a different way & he said not that he remembered. I then told him I'd found her number on the phone bill. He didn't say anything but later when I walked by his cell phone was out in the grass like he was putting it out there for me to look at. I walked on by.
Frankly I am a little exasperated... I feel worn out with this ... Why is he having fb conversations w/ someone he is not even fb friends w/ & lying to me about having phone conversations w/ her. After he has cheated on me w/ a co-worker. Seems like some unhealthy boundaries to me... Am I wrong?
How to spend the rest of the weekend... I do not know.
Honey,
please STFU. Please! You are on a direct course for a crash of an epic proportions. You are sabotaging yourself. GET THAT!!!
Your anger and resetment are getting the better of you. Now is the time to put that anger aside, it almost looks like you are finding excuses to self destruct.
How to spend te rest of the weekend? Act as if... Act as if everything is ok. Show him that YOU are the BETTER option. Enjoy yourself, smile, laugh, love...
what Vapo said^^
when you come to believe in your head AND heart that you are the better choice,
a lot of this gets easier. You may have to make some behavior changes to get there b/c maybe you are not all you can be right now, or yet,
but once you get there, and you KNOW you are the best Hope you can be, then turn the marriage over to God and let the cards fall where they fall; and
Know you are a great catch, and in time it will radiate from within.
Become a woman only a fool would leave.
Keep your eye on the goal, which really is that^^, imo.
Well in the morning I told him I felt uncomfortable about this other co-worker. He assured me there was nothing there & that he'd probably not hear from her again... He would let me know if he did. He said that he had talked to her on the phone months ago b/c she was sick & didnMt have insurance & was needing advice about her illness (my h is an RN). Then he told me she asked if her friend could call him for advice- she was kicked out of nursing school. So I guess I am just feeling like women are a threat who I would not normally even worry about. I knew that my h had searched for this woman's do page multiple times in one day (when we were on very bad terms)... I saw it when I was snooping on his fb. But I never said anything thinking maybe it was all nothing. She is attractive (a lot more than OW) & that gave me pause but I never said anything. So when she messages him on fb this w/e that really put my meter a bit higher on the alert.
So anyway, the weekend went well regardless. I didn't let it bother me. I had fun & we had a nice time together. We came home & had a nice remainder of the day together sunday.
Things are still going well. H seems super enthusiastic towards me when we interact (all smiles, great moods, physical contact, etc). While I might question what is going on to produce this change I will not let that over run my enjoyment of it.
I think one thing that always crops up (even before the affair) is the amount of time h spends at work. He has always been a hard worker & I'm sure he is one of the only ones putting in over 40 hrs a week. He works about 10 hours a day & says he works more than 8 b/c he likes the comp time so he can use that instead of vacation (his vacation balance is close to 200 hrs right now b/c he rarely uses it for time he takes off). Any time this topic comes up it puts him in a bad mood so mostly I avoid discussions related to his work hours but I do feel neglected for his work.
And post affair, the feelings are slightly worse... I question if he is really working all those hours or doing something else (like he did during the affair) and I feel less secure in our relationship as a whole when he is off working & I am with the kids all day.
It's difficult to stop the imagination from running wild once trust is broken. I don't know what the answer is - I have confronted H when there is something that really bothers me, but even when it appears that he answers openly, I don't know if I trust him.
Well damn honey,
you just don't let up. As if you are pushing him away so you could say that you were right all along about him.
WOULD YOU RATHER BE RIGHT OR MARRIED?
You cannot hang on his ass 24/7 and watch every move he makes because it will drive you nuts or it will drive him nuts.
You really do need to forgive him because FORGIVENESS IS FOR YOUR BENEFIT, NOT HIS. And no, he is not "getting away with it". Frankly if you do not forgive him, you might as well start packing and filing for D. You cannot NOT forgive him and stay married. No way in hell.
Make no mistake, there is a lot of hard work in front of both of you that will really test your love. And no, he cannot hand you his nuts in apology, because then he will have lost your respect.
FORGIVE!
LOVE!
LIVE!
And for god's sake, quit acting like a spoiled brat. Get with the program or file for D.
It's difficult to stop the imagination from running wild once trust is broken. I don't know what the answer is - I have confronted H when there is something that really bothers me, but even when it appears that he answers openly, I don't know if I trust him.
Yeah, it is hard to know what is real anymore, it seems. I question lots of things that happened in the past & of course question things that happen now. It is hard to just blindly believe that he is not doing anything.
Well damn honey,
you just don't let up. As if you are pushing him away so you could say that you were right all along about him.
WOULD YOU RATHER BE RIGHT OR MARRIED?
You cannot hang on his ass 24/7 and watch every move he makes because it will drive you nuts or it will drive him nuts.
You really do need to forgive him because FORGIVENESS IS FOR YOUR BENEFIT, NOT HIS. And no, he is not "getting away with it". Frankly if you do not forgive him, you might as well start packing and filing for D. You cannot NOT forgive him and stay married. No way in hell.
Make no mistake, there is a lot of hard work in front of both of you that will really test your love. And no, he cannot hand you his nuts in apology, because then he will have lost your respect.
FORGIVE!
LOVE!
LIVE!
And for god's sake, quit acting like a spoiled brat. Get with the program or file for D.
Yeah, I understand that I need to move on from this & forgive for my benefit. It seems like it is a process... some days I think I have it all together - my mind is straight, emotions in check, attitude just right, etc. Then other days, i fail miserably at all those things. Some days I can feel like all is well ... no matter what he is doing- b/c I will be alright regardless.
And yes, watching everything he does & analyzing it all is driving me nuts. Some days I have the ability to shrug my shoulders & move on but then some days I feel myself panicking a little over things.
It just all feels so up & down. I have felt relaxed, confident, at peace (which would be when I don't come here as much as I have no immediate need) many times. But sometimes things start to pile up & I falter. I do need to get a grip & try to remain steady, even when I am not feeling it but so far I cannot manage this 100% of the time.
We have done marriage counseling & finished... Then we fell off the working on the marriage wagon. I suggested we go back to help us resolve the problem we were having & H said he'd not go back to MC again. And frankly, we spent all our savings on MC the first time so we have no money for it again.
Things have been good though... Feeling positive and strong. H is doing well to meet my needs (& I am meeting his). I know I am on an up & will have some downs but hopefully I can work to not lose my head in the future down times... Those times of doubt & insecurity.
It is possible that OW has left their place of employment. H had the work schedule at home this weekend & I saw it & her name is no longer on it. H could have removed her or changed her name so that I wouldn't know her schedule.... But that would have been a first time to do that & with no real reason to do that (I am not talking about her, stalking her, or trying to go up to his work) so it is doubtful he'd do that. But then I also wonder why he wouldn't tell me if she did leave... Wouldn't that be something that he would want me to know?
Not really worried about it but it is just something that could be helpful. Not planning to say anything about it to h but wondering if he'll tell me.
Posting this here to get it out rather than saying anything to H.
Something I've thought about before but have not put much thought into lately is the fact that H never uses his iPad for his Facebook or email anymore. When we fell off the marriage rebuilding (in June after he read the message on my computer I wrote about him to my sister) he deleted fb from his iPad as well as taking his email off of there. He only used his phone (& changed the password on his phone to one I didn't know).
Well when he decided we were going no where fast & decided to get back to working on the relationship, he put the old password back on his phone, the one that I know. I have been able to look at his phone but mostly do not anymore... I don't feel as compelled to and I also realize that there is little point. If he is doing anything, he is going to be smarter about it now.
But he has not started using his iPad again for Facebook or email. He might occasionally browse the internet on it but that is it. Until last night. He was trying to find an email & his phone wasn't searching for it properly so he got the iPad out & pulled up his email in the browser (not in the email app). He'd forgotten his password & had to reset it. He got in & found what he was looking for. Then he logged out of his email. Not just closed the browser window, but logged out. So now I am left thinking more about this.
It could be a couple things- he doesn't want me to have access to his emails & fb messages all day long like I have in the past just b/c of privacy. He never liked me spying on him & what I would bring up to him that I'd read. BUt he tolerated it b/c of what he'd done.
The other reason that is floating around in my mind is that he is hiding something... he is using these accounts during the day for messaging & clearing the messages before he gets around me (in case I look on his phone). The last time I looked on his fb, I looked at who he has been searching for on fb (if he were to be messaging the OW on fb he would have to search for her first since he isn't friends w/ her any more on fb) & there were no searches. It was like it had been cleared totally... he has had random searches on there previously when I looked (maybe a month or so ago) of friends that he has friended or business pages he has looked for. But this time it was totally cleared w/ no search history. So this is slightly troubling.
I know I am putting a lot of guesswork into all this & it could be nothing. And it could just be that I need to not worry about these things until something more comes to light (something blatantly obvious or him pulling away from me instead of working to meet all my needs). But as I said in the beginning, these are thoughts that go through my head & I wanted to post them here to get them out instead of saying anything to H.
So am I right in thinking that I should just dismiss this all from my mind & let it be?
I'm dealing with very similar stuff.
H's e-mail that he used to communicate with OW is now completely empty (I saw what was there earlier). He acted as if he didn't remember the password, but I got suspicious because it was too empty - there would normally be some subscription e-mails in there.
He is not on FB at all, and is vocal about his contempt for it (that's how OW contacted him). He unfriended OW on my request. OW is posting on her own page all the time, but for business purposes mostly.
I landed on the thought that I can never control completely what he does, and I'd drive myself crazy chasing that rat through the maze. I'm trying to balance indifference with not being gullible.
IMO, it is completely naturally to wonder and worry and snoop - we're trying to protect ourselves from being hurt again, and that's a basic survival instinct.
Yes, you are so right... there is no way to control everything they do... and if they really wanted to do something, they could. They wouldn't have to use their phones... I have had this thought before too- my H could be just using his work computer & work phone. He could be using his accounts on his cel phone but deleting everything before he comes home... and being really dutiful to not use it when he is home. There are all sorts of ways he could do it... i try to remember that when I am thinking about snooping and when I think about what I have or have not found. It is crazy making to try to catch them doing something.
At times I am really good with this... I can keep a straight head and resist snooping. Especially when he is leaving his phone out for me. I it almost like he is saying, "here is my phone- I've cleared it of anything I shouldn't be doing, you can snoop." Of course the flip side is - "I'm not doing anything, here is my phone for you to see." So who knows which one it really is... and there is really no way to know.
I guess the reason I occasionally to succumb to snooping is that thought that I might be able to catch him... he might slip up, & I'll find something. And you are right, we have been hurt really bad & are trying to minimize any future hurt. If we can discover it sooner rather than later, that will minimize the time we are made a fool of. (And for me, if he cheats again, I am done... he knows this & I am firm on this. I can take responsibility for my part in the relationship being what it was that allowed for someone else to step in... but now, there is no excuse, no reason that would make me stay.)
And speaking of succumbing... last night I looked at his fb search history again to see if he is keeping it cleared... 2 searches. One for a business and one for that girl from his work that messaged him while we were camping (not the OW). The one that he had talked to on the phone while we were on the outs (he said she was really sick and needed advice as her insurance hadn't kicked in... h is in a supervisory role and an RN) & the one that he had friended on fb before (but now they are not friends) & who I had seen him search for repeatedly when we were on the outs. I don't know if he has an obsession w/ her or what it is... she is very attractive. When we were camping he did tell me there was nothing there & she probably wouldn't contact him again. But why is he searching for her on fb? To look at her page?? I don't get it. And if I say something, he definitely will begin to clear his fb search history.
Well not going to spend too much time worrying about it for now. It is just one of those things to file in the back of my mind for future reference if I need it.
What I've done when I see stuff, is document. I don't always do anything, but I take screen shots and save in a folder. I would be upset if I saw that search and knew that he had searched her numerous times before. And I would probably confront him about it.
I agree with you on something happening again - I've told H the same thing, once more and I'm done for good.
Yeah, it is concerning but I'm not particularly bothered by it right now.
However, I am a bit more concerned about this fb messenger... it seems this weekend when we were in the car & I was driving, he quickly looked at me & back at his phone & when I looked quickly at his phone, I saw the message image... I think it is the one you see when you have no messages from someone if you were to look them up & click on message. I am not positive b/c I have an iPhone & he has an android... so it is a little different. But combined with him quickly looking at me (something I noticed a few times when he was actually cheating) and then looking at that, it has me on alert. I haven't said anything & It isn't to the point of keeping me up at night (which when I really worry about something, it does keep me up nearly all night)... but another thing to file away for future reference if I need it. It could literally be nothing... he did leave his phone on the table when he went to the bathroom a few hours earlier when we were out to eat. How to arrange when to message one another while also leaving your phone out for your spouse to see seems like it would be so hard to manage. So this part has me questioning my suspicions.
But otherwise, things are carrying on over here. Yesterday I had a lot to do and we were both really busy around the house. Things felt a bit disconnected because of that & I thought we seemed a bit further apart. But I guess that is how life goes.
Dear Hope, and to an extent Painter (though I have not read your story so feel free to dismiss whatever you think is not applicable)
but I feel you are doing a dangerous thing, NOT in alignment with DB principles at their core. And it's so much self inflicted pain YOU CAN AVOID or at least lessen, without a word or act by your h.
Let's look at some of your own words below...
Yes, you are so right... there is no way to control everything they do... and if they really wanted to do something, they could.
THIS^^^ IS SOMETHING YOU MUST ACCEPT at every level of your being, or you'll drive yourself nutty AND I strongly strongly believe you will help to create the very thing you most fear...the end of the marriage.
What do you KNOW for a fact?? Because only facts matter right now or you will create a self fulfilling prophecy.
What You KNOW:
You have a husband who strayed outside the marriage AND THEN REGRETTED IT.
You have a h who SAYS he wants to stay married.
You have a h who for the most part, ACTS as if he wants to stay married.
That^^ is what you KNOW. The phrase "from this day forward" MUST start applying or you will keep on ruminating on the past, which gets you nowhere fast and keeps on eating at you inside...and pushes him away...
("did he EVER love me? Was it ALL a lie? Am I being lied to again??" ETC)
Where do those unanswerable questions get you? STUCK...
I wasted a year of my life asking "Why????" and I can't ever get that year back.
I placed myself into that he11, yet in reality there is no such thing as a "good" or satisfactory "answer". And you're harming your cause.
It's as if he could bring you roses and you'd secretly (or not so secretly) wonder if it's NOT a loving gesture but really just a guilt induced act,
thus negating any & all possible loving intention on his end (which will definitely decrease further attempts on his end),
OR it was a trick to fool you into believing he wants to stay married....which makes NO sense b/c if OR When he wants out of the marriage, YOU WILL KNOW.
They wouldn't have to use their phones... I have had this thought before too- my H could be just using his work computer & work phone. He could be using his accounts on his cel phone but deleting everything before he comes home... and being really dutiful to not use it when he is home. There are all sorts of ways he could do it... i try to remember that when I am thinking about snooping and when I think about what I have or have not found. It is crazy making to try to catch them doing something.
So Stop yourself. What are your GAL activities? The more you are DOING and the ways you are Growing, will go a long way towards becoming a woman only a fool would leave AND it will help you heal much faster and obsess a lot less.
At times I am really good with this... I can keep a straight head and resist snooping. Especially when he is leaving his phone out for me. I it almost like he is saying, "here is my phone- I've cleared it of anything I shouldn't be doing, you can snoop." Of course the flip side is - "I'm not doing anything, here is my phone for you to see." So who knows which one it really is... and there is really no way to know.
I guess the reason I occasionally to succumb to snooping is that thought that I might be able to catch him... he might slip up, & I'll find something. And you are right, we have been hurt really bad & are trying to minimize any future hurtt.
The problem(s) with that is that it's FALSE. You are NOT going to decrease pain by "catching him" and you are NOT minimizing the future hurts. That's my main point here.
The seeing things negatively so much, the constant desire to snoop and NOT trust or forgive even when you said you were doing just that, INCREASES the chance of future hurt.
If we can discover it sooner rather than later, that will minimize the time we are made a fool of.
Do you ever wonder if you played a role in the affair before? I'm NOT blaming you but if you want to minimize the risks, (and don't we all??!) then
Wouldn't the best way to Decrease the chances of your h having an affair, simply be by You Being the Better Choice?
Become a woman only a fool would leave.
So if he cheats on you again and you've done your very best as a wife, then YOU are not the fool; he is.
--
Well not going to spend too much time worrying about it for now. It is just one of those things to file in the back of my mind for future reference if I need it.
If you mean "future reference for a need" to mean what? I mean, the negative thoughts and feelings sure are living rent free in your head and heart. Besides,
unless adultery is going to change a property settlement or custody in the event of a divorce, why is that information, actually relevant? And why invite this into your life?
Why not GAL and LIVE WELL, now and model for your children and yourself and your h,
what real forgiveness looks like? It's a PROCESS and it's not linear. It's a series of choices you must make. I think you can make it but you need to get out of your own way.
Make sense?
Good luck
In my case, adultery would very much change property settlements and many other aspects of a potential D. That would also be H's motivation for lying/pretending to work on the M while just having gone underground with OW.
Another concern for me is that H worked for many years in a profession where high-stakes deception was part of his job. It was for a good purpose at the time, but I am concerned about his abilities and how he has now used them against me. Sometimes I wonder if the thrill of the A was partly reliving the 'good old days'...
But like I said, I have found that I'll only drive myself crazy by thinking about it, so I don't - but I try to not be gullible, either.
Dear painter
What would it mean to you if you were "gullible"? What Specifically bothers you about that?
Is it the idea of some public humiliation (which seems unlikely, given the desire for secrecy on his end) or the IDEA that he lied to you again? Why wouldn't that be HIS problem? How does it reflect poorly on YOU, to choose to trust the man you married?
Don't get me wrong, for some of us, an affair or 2nd affair, is IT. Done, no looking back, etc. It's just how some are wired.
I get that^^.
I just don't understand all the energy spent on snooping to find it (have you read MWD's books' particular section on this topic? It's very useful )
I'm trying to get you to see that once you have become your TRUE "honest to God" best self, (& protected your legal interests)--and GAL< etc
then why not drop it, and or turn it over to God (or the universe, etc) ?
Why not then let the cards fall where they will
without occupying so much of your precious life and energy,? So much of that could go to your children or work or your own self growth etc.
I regret the energy I spent on wondering what my h was doing/thinking/planning/feeling, that could and should have gone to raising and comforting my daughters who were also in pain.
I wish I had done more for them then, but my own pain preoccupied me greatly. I often was not fully present for them. That is a year I gave away to darkness.
Besides, if you get to the "I'm seriously giving & being my best, for real" place in life, then it's not about you anymore, at all.
At that point, it's all on him and all of that is out of your control.
IMO, Letting go of what we cannot control (and never ever could) is among the most freeing gifts you can give yourself in life.
Trying to outguess or maneuver around his actions is not really how you want to live, is it?
I hope this make sense.
Again, good luck.
25, I think you may have the impression that I spend a lot of my time snooping on H. That is not the case at all, and I thought I made that clear in my posts where I said (twice) that I have landed on the thought that this is not something I can control, because he can always just get another e-mail account, phone, etc. It is not something I consider a big issue in my life at this time.
However, feelings of distrust and doubt come up at times, and I expect them to for a while longer. You can't rebuild trust in just a few months, and I'm not expecting to. I was expressing empathy with HopeOK (and I apologize for this hijacking of her thread!) and told her what my experiences in that area have been.
I don't think that H lying to me reflects poorly on me in the least, but I obviously won't continue to work to repair a M if he's in a secret R with OW again. Wouldn't anyone want to know the truth instead of being lied to?
Originally, I found out about the A because H was sloppy with some documentation. Even then, I let it go until a letter came in the mail that I couldn't ignore. I then returned to the documentation and started researching. H only admitted to the A after I confronted him with the evidence and dates. Having this knowledge *greatly changed the dynamics of the situation in my favor*.
There are very respected MCs who support finding out all the facts you need to know what you're dealing with, whatever it takes to get it. It is a debated issue among some, but I think every person has to do what they are comfortable with.
I've been gone for awhile... I thought maybe a week but looks like longer!
Since I've been gone, things were carrying on pretty much the same. With me having passing feelings of worry but really working to push them aside.
Then last Tuesday I had a really hard day. It started fine but then the kids were especially trying that day and my inner struggle to find some sort of purpose/meaning/fulfillment in life got the better of me. By the afternoon I was down right depressed. H came home & noticed... we sat for awhile & talked. I told him (deep in my pity party) that I am just so tired & I really feel like I hate my life. I couldn't really articulate it all to him in the way it made sense in my head but he was caring in his demeanor, even if he didn't have much to say about what I said to him.
Then we talked again about his hurts... he really struggles with the name I called him (he has a lot of inadequacy & fear of failure issues from his past) when I was so angry at him for cheating. Many would say that he deserved it... and with me being so mad, it is expected that some hateful/angry things would spew out. But I think I really touched on some shame issues he has and he really has held on to this thinking that I spoke the truth only when really provoked (I don't name call... ever... except this time). The other issue of what I thought he did came up again too.
I slept horribly that night. Even though we were talking, it wasn't a resolved thing... I am beginning to think that all these talks about these hurts are just moving in that direction and will need to be worked through many many times before things feel better.
Then the next day I was searching for something to help me. I needed something to put me in a better frame of mind. And I found this Ted Talk by Brene Brown. Life changing.
https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability?language=enI highly recommend it for anyone struggling with trusting & working on a marriage after an affair.
I went on to find a 13 video series of hers on youtube of a workshop she did & that has also been so meaningful. Lots of good info. I really wish my h would listen b/c I think it could help him too. But since watching this ted talk & the other videos on youtube of hers, I feel almost like a totally different person. I have a different perspective.
It isn't that I am out there majorly GAL as many in this board recommend... this is problematic for us with such a limited time to spend together- me going out in the evening is resorting to my old behaviors of finding happiness outside of the marriage & not giving the marriage/h any of my time/attention. So the things I do for myself need to happen during the day... in the mornings before the kids wake up when h leaves for work or at some other point in the day. I have struggled w/ this GAL thing b/c I have always felt it was putting me back to where I was when we fell apart... why he thought I was done w/ him & having an affair with someone else.
SO... while I am finding time for myself & putting energy into things I enjoy, I am not going out & having fun w/ friends when it would take away time spent at home w/ the family or with my h. I feel good about this.
We had another talk in bed the other night (tuesday night) & it was more about h's struggle with what I mentioned above. I really tried to show empathy (as Brene Brown would suggest where there are shame issues) but it is so hard when I am the one that caused that shame to heighten. So I need to read her books to figure that part out. But I think the important part is that he is talking. It is hard for him to talk & he is doing it.
So instead of feeling bad after that conversation as I have been, I was able to list all the things I am grateful for. Well at first I did have the feeling of " oh gosh... he is always going to feel all this pain that I caused him & feel like that is really how I feel... instead of seeing all the other evidence to the contrary". But then I quickly refocused as Brown would suggest & moved into gratitude. I was thankful he was talking about this. i was thankful for the opportunity to tell him what a great dad I really think he is. i was thankful that even though these were tough things to talk about & bad feeling abounded for him, we still ended holding each other & very close physically. My frame of mind was also different too... it was more of- "I should be here to help him through this b/c he is hurting" rather than "oh no is he going to cheat on me b/c of these bad feelings?"
I think the biggest thing that changed my perspective is when Brene Brown talked about being brave by being vulnerable. Trusting my h & not worrying about whether he is cheating is a very vulnerable place for me. But w/o vulnerability, you cannot really experience joy. And bad things happen. They do. But worrying about them & missing out on joy just makes it doubly bad.
Here are some of her quotes that resonated with me from some of her youtube videos. (I didn't start writing them down until 1/2 way through so I'll have to go back & listen again... I think it would be helpful to me to cement them in anyway).
When we lose our tolerance for vulnerability, joy become foreboding. (this is where things are going really good or you're having a really good time & it is dampened by the thoughts of what is going to ruin it, wondering when the other shoe will drop).
Lots of time spent doing something (i.e. Facebook for me) w/o any enjoyment is numbing out. This is a way to avoid vulnerability. We would rather be certain and miserable then uncertain & wholehearted. Holy cow... this has been me. Trying to find out what he is doing & needing to feel certain he is or is not cheating. Her definition of whole hearted is living life to the fullest, being healthy, loving, being happy, etc.
I'm sure I'll post more again some time. I think she is extremely helpful.
I'm really struck by the profundity of these quotes and your insight.
I'll definitely read up on her work. This is growth.
Yes, I sure do wish we could grow and improve and learn life lessons without so much pain , but it seems as if the ordeals we go through in life are our biggest opportunities for growth and evolving.
I often wish we could "learn a big lesson" by winning the lottery, 
but turning our grief, fear and despair,
into gratitude, joy and faith, I think is the big challenge when we have these ordeals or suffer losses.
I think you are really onto something.
I'm really struck by the profundity of these quotes and your insight.
I'll definitely read up on her work. This is growth.
Yes, I sure do wish we could grow and improve and learn life lessons without so much pain , but it seems as if the ordeals we go through in life are our biggest opportunities for growth and evolving.
I often wish we could "learn a big lesson" by winning the lottery,
but turning our grief, fear and despair,
into gratitude, joy and faith, I think is the big challenge when we have these ordeals or suffer losses.
I think you are really onto something.
Thank you! I think this has been profound for me to have stumbled onto her. Or maybe it was time... I don't know for sure. But I do know I have a huge shift in my thought processes and the amount of time I spend worrying and being unhappy.
This is another quote that really struck me of hers:
"The problem is... that you cannot selectively numb emotions... You can't numb those hard feelings without numbing the other affects and emotions.... When we numb those, we numb joy, we numb gratitude, we numb happiness, and then we are miserable and we are looking for purpose and meaning. And then we feel vulnerable so then we have a couple of beers and a banana nut muffin. And it becomes this dangerous cycle." -Brene BrownI don't think I was numbing with food or alcohol (although I have had a few drinks to have something to enjoy on occasion!) But I was searching for something ... some sort of purpose or meaning in my life. This is what led me to my miserable evening where I told h that I hated my life. I felt like I wanted nothing to do with anything that was going on right then... whether it was staying at home, homeschooling, being married, etc. Everything felt like it didn't matter anymore. I numbed out on fb or random internet sites. I feel like just listening to her talk brought me out of that despair.
So now the real struggle I feel is bringing my H along w/ me. We had a rough start to the weekend... not because of anything that I was suffering through but what he was going through.
Friday we were going to a co-op in the afternoon and it just so happened that we drove by H's work to get there. Totally not checking up but I admit to looking to the right to see his car & such. Then as I was doing this, I see him walking into the building. I really wasn't worried about it... there could be many reasons he would go out to his car... wasn't a big deal. But I thought- I'll call him & tell him that we saw him. Well he didn't answer. So as I was pumping gas, I texted him & told him that we'd seen him while driving by. I was thinking that he was in a meeting (I knew he had an afternoon full of interviews) & that he'd see it later. He then calls & quickly tells me that someone lost their diamond out of their ring & he went out to the car to get a flashlight to help them in their search. Then he had to go to get into his interview.
Well, we arrive at co-op & are being shown where to go when he calls. I can't answer & then he texts "check your email". I look and there are weird schedule email forwards. Then I call him back & he says for me to check my email. I ask him what it was about & he said, "so you know where I was." I tell him I wasn't worried about it.
Then at home that evening he is distant. I can tell he is upset. I ask him. He tells me that this whole thing (with me calling & then texting) sent him into a panic where his heart was beating fast & he felt like he was in trouble and he had to prove to me that he wasn't doing anything. I told him I wasn't at any point worried, I was letting go of all that & doing much better. I then shared some things that I had been working on... things I had heard from Brene Brown & was really helping.
Well then later he is still acting weird & he decides to go to bed when the kids do instead of watching the movie we rented for us. When I said- "so we're not watching the movie tonight?" he says, "I guess not." Then he goes to lay down w/ Jackson. At that point I say, "can I talk to you real quick?" & lead him downstairs.
We have another talk where I ask him what is up. He says he just doesn't believe that I wasn't upset and that the really doesn't like what happened. I again reiterate that I was never upset, had a good day, wasn't worried, just called to try & catch him before he went into the meeting & then texted so he'd know why I called (his vm is not set up currently). I had not panicked. I ask him to stop punishing me. He says ok. then goes to bed.
The next day he isn't quite as grumpy/moody/distant but still not 100%. When I hold his hand he just lightly puts his hand on mine. By the afternoon I say something again. He says that it takes him awhile to get through these thoughts. When he has those bad feelings (as he did when he felt he was in trouble) it brings up all the other bad feelings... like about what I called him, about what i thought he did bad w/ our son, etc. and he has a hard time getting out of that. He also said that he didn't know how he could believe I really wanted him when I'd acted like I had for so many years.
I told him I understood. I've been there. I totally get it. But we need to work together to get through this. I told him it was so hard for me to continue to reach out to him when i felt like he was pulling away. But that I was doing it b/c I wanted us to work out. I was risking that vulnerability b/c I wanted to work through all this. It would be so much easier to just say, "f@$% it" & distance from him. To do as I am used to and go off & be mad & give up. But b/c I do want him & I do want us to work out, I am reaching out to him when he his hurting and trying to reassure him.
By that evening I think things started to get better. Although he did tell me that talking about it doesn't help... it just keeps him in those thoughts longer. I don't know. I kind of think that you have to get all that out to work through it. But he thinks he needs to work to push it aside on his own. I'm not sure how I can help him through this pain that i have caused him... I want to share what I have learned that has helped me but I don't want to come across as preachy or a teacher (as I have in the past & he hates that). So I just am stuck & sometimes feel (when he is going through this stuff) like it is hopeless... he will always carry these resentments and I will continually have to try and convince him that I didn't mean it when I said those things & I do think he is a good person/Dad.
Ugh. So any advice for helping your partner get through their betrayed trust & hurt feelings?
welp... had been doing pretty good.
Yesterday got a call from someone supposedly from our phone company but I thought it might be a scam. Then I was worried they'd access our account & do something so I told H that I wanted to call & make sure everything was ok.
To do this, I needed the special code he put on back when things went downhill for us (when he read my messages & read what I wrote about him). He seemed reluctant... and he acted like "here we go again". He said- "What did I tell you several months ago about that? I'm not trying to be hateful or hurtful, but no I don't want you to be able to do anything else with this phone." He was meaning tracking him... or also implying about me putting spyware on his phone. But I told him I could only track him via our account & that he could also verify that I didn't. I said I could view the call log & was there something he didn't want me to see? He then gave in & gave me the info.
I got the scam thing straightened out & then had a look at the call/text logs. Bam. 8 texts between him & the OW on 9/30/15. Brought it up to him & he said it was work related. I asked if he still had the texts for me to see. Nope- he deleted them. He said b/c he didn't want me to look on his phone & get all worked up over seeing her & him texting. I pointed out that if he would have showed them to me & said- look, we texted & here are the texts, strictly work related as you can see... then I would not have to wonder & worry when I find out about it later.
SO..... what to do? I feel like he might be lying. But maybe not. Could be work related... but why delete if it was? I just hate this. Ugh. And 3 days before we head off on a trip to Colorado for just us.
Do I drop it? Do I ask other questions?
Ugh. More info does not equal more peace.
Looked at the text messages a bit further. H said that she texted him about work stuff & he told her not to text him on his personal phone (at the end of the 8 messages, he said... because I asked why there would be 8 if he told her not to text him). Well looking at the texts closer I see that he texted her once in the morning. Then she texted him an hour later. Then he texted her 6 more times after that. She did not text him any more than the initial one time responding to his first text!! And the last text he sent was a multimedia text... so could be a picture, video, or a simple smiley face.
But ugh. He did lie. He said she was texting him about work stuff. But apparently he was texting her.
What does your intuition (gut feeling) tell you to do?
I was feeling pretty sick to my stomach yesterday but in my head, things are still going round & round.
I talked to him about it last night & he told me he was sure it was work related, probably in regards to scheduling ... but he couldn't remember exactly what it was. He said she was probably asking him about the schedule but then I told him that couldn't be it b/c he texted her first, she replied an hour later, then he proceeded to text her 6 more times throughout the day.
I just cannot figure out a way that it makes sense in my head. Even if they were seeing each other again, why would they text only one day. And why would she only respond once? Their regular communication method was not working? How could that even be... I cannot even think of a situation where they would need to text just one day.
So then if it is work related... why would he text her while he is at work? Wouldn't he just go & ask her his question if it was work related? Or if she was off, why wouldn't he call her from his desk phone to ask a staffing question? And if he was asking her about staffing... why would he continue to text through the remainder of the day w/o her responding?
I just cannot even figure it out & I figure I am not going to. And I don't think i am going to get the truth from him, for whatever reason. I think I need to drop it but it is difficult to get out of my head.
I was feeling pretty sick to my stomach yesterday but in my head, things are still going round & round.
I talked to him about it last night & he told me he was sure it was work related, probably in regards to scheduling ... but he couldn't remember exactly what it was. He said she was probably asking him about the schedule but then I told him that couldn't be it b/c he texted her first, she replied an hour later, then he proceeded to text her 6 more times throughout the day.
I just cannot figure out a way that it makes sense in my head. Even if they were seeing each other again, why would they text only one day. And why would she only respond once? Their regular communication method was not working? How could that even be... I cannot even think of a situation where they would need to text just one day.
So then if it is work related... why would he text her while he is at work? Wouldn't he just go & ask her his question if it was work related? Or if she was off, why wouldn't he call her from his desk phone to ask a staffing question? And if he was asking her about staffing... why would he continue to text through the remainder of the day w/o her responding?
I just cannot even figure it out & I figure I am not going to. And I don't think i am going to get the truth from him, for whatever reason. I think I need to drop it but it is difficult to get out of my head.
The answer is there^^^^, i.e., to drop it, "But it is difficult" and so you want to keep chewing on it.
You already asked him about it - and he said it was insignificant.
My question for you is about what you are learning from this & how are you changing?
I'm not letting him "off the hook" for the A, (although at some point you must - or end the marriage).
You said you wanted to forgive him and move past this -but my fear is that HE will Not believe YOU can do that...if you keep repeating the same old...
So In the past-
has you feeling fearful or resentful helped your marriage?
Has repeatedly asking him about the same thing, over and over again, been something that improves the relationship?
You did "confront" him and he denies an affair.
Sure he MAY be lying....but if he's not, then what you are doing is literally making you sick
and not helping the marriage.
Maybe he is working out the total removal of OW in his world, and maybe that takes more time
but unless you fear that he's secretly making plans to leave you - and won't tell you until 2 minutes before you get served (NOT LIKELY btw)
and if so, then that is on HIM and neither of you will be able to say that YOU drove him away
then isn't it better to put the focus back on YOU and rebuilding the relationship?
I mean, literally, How could that^^ hurt?
I really don't know if there is a set answer as to the snooping/spying/checking up on behavior. I think there is a time for it when you really need to know, like for legal action, but the rest of the time, it just doesn't help you. Isn't it about controlling their behavior? And we all know you can't do that. If you have a plan to rebuild the connection, then ask if this helps with that. For my sitch, I've stopped looking or caring. Perhaps he needs to work through this himself. But it will drive you crazy.
Hi honey,
how are you doing?
Am I your honey, vapo?
I am doing well, struggling with my own plan. I think I will edit it and make a few modifications and keep working at it.