I'm brand new to the site, as I just discovered it yesterday. Here's my story. I'm 47 and my wife 42, together 24 years, married 18, with 4 boys, ages 8, 10, 15, and 18. The 15 year old is fully autistic, and the 10 year old is on the spectrum, they are calling it Asperger's Syndrome. Back in early March this year, I received a Facebook message from a guy who has been a mutual friend of me and wife for couple of years. He said he and WW had been having an affair for past 18 months and she just broke it off the week prior. When I confronted her, she admitted to it and we decided that a separation was the best idea.
My WW was supposed to be staying with a girlfriend during this time and basically went lights out for over 3 weeks. She would stop by for a few minutes every couple of days and occasionally call but for the most part I didn't hear from her. In early April, I she said we needed to talk so we met and she told me she had been seeing a new guy and had fallen in love and was moving in with him. This was a guy she had only met a few weeks earlier and had talked about to me before as a "friend" and a "big brother". She met him while still seeing the other guy and apparently the friendship developed into more. Neither of these guys is anything like me. The first guy was a jobless bum and looked like a hippy with long hair and had drug problems. The current guy is a member of a motorcycle club, long hair, go-tee, the typical biker look. He's making a whopping $10/hour at 48 years old. His place and where she is currently living is a double-wide trailer in some crappy little park, which was barely even furnished when she moved in. She has been buying used stuff to stock it up.
So fast forward a few months. Current situation is that she has been moved out since basically early March, the 4 kids all stay with me. Nobody has filed for D yet. Wife is supposed to take kids every Mon, Wed, and Fri, with the option for them to spend the night if they want. None of them ever do, except my youngest who has stayed maybe 5 or 6 times total. My 2 special needs boys rarely even go over. The other 2 will go and have dinner, visit for 3-4 hours and come home. I consulted with an attorney in April and after going through some custody situations, came up with a good idea of what I could expect to pay in child and spousal support after D. Based on that, I agreed to give my WW $900/month, which is a little less than where I will likely end up after filing. I have been doing that every month since May, hoping it would help with kids meals, keep her friendly, and foolishly hoping maybe she would snap out of her fog.
Obviously, the situation hasn't improved at all. And to make things worse, I got laid off from my job in mid June and currently unemployed. I did receive several weeks of severance pay so am temporarily making ends meet but I'm getting very nervous about money. Now in spite of all that has happened, I really do still love my WW and am hoping somehow we can still make the M work. So my question is: am I an idiot for giving her any financial support? She has become accustomed to it and will have a very hard time w/o my help. My family all says cut her off, as I'm under no legal obligation to do anything until one of us files for D and a temp court order for support is issued. If I don't give her money I know she's going to go nuts on me, possibly file herself. I don't know how to handle it. And would I be wise to go ahead and file myself or make her get an attorney and do it, if she's so determined?
After weeks of ups and downs, doing the pick-me dance, trying to be friends and hang out, etc I have finally settled into a bare min contact mode the past week and only discuss kids and money, text only. No calls or visits. Any suggestions appreciated.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).
Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you for the reply Cadet. Already have an update. WW texted me today wanting more financial help. I've been giving her money every month since we separated but just can't continue to do so, without risking well being of myself and the kids. I'm unemployed and down to a few weeks of remaining severance pay. Not to mention, the kids never spend an overnight with her and she barely sees the 2 special needs kids at all. The other 2 go over for dinner and spend 3-4 hours 2 or 3 times every week. Hardly what I would call a 50-50 custody arrangement. So I cut her off and said there won't be another dime without a court order. She obviously wasn't happy. I am meeting with my own attorney this week just to fill him in and get advice but don't plan on filing just yet. No idea what WW plans on doing next but I doubt she can even come up with money to hire an attorney.
So I was really mad yesterday after the big phone conversation and almost convinced myself I wanted a D. Slept pretty well and woke up feeling not nearly as angry. Now thinking I still want to save my M and knowing I've got a mountain of work and time ahead. Hoping for some other replies soon. I've ordered the DR book and plan on reading that as soon as it arrives.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hang in there, I will say a prayer for your situation to get better for you and your family!
Our Father God of compassion, You sent Jesus to proclaim a time of mercy reaching out to those who had no voice, releasing those trapped by their own shame, and welcoming those scorned by society.
Make us ambassadors of reconciliation. Open our ears that we may listen with respect and understanding. Touch our lips that we may speak
your words of peace and forgiveness. Warm our hearts that we may bring wholeness to the broken-hearted and dissolve the barriers of division.
Guide the work of your Church and renew us with the Spirit of your love. Help us and all people shape a world where all will have a place, where the flames of hatred are quenched, and where all can grow together as one.
Forgive, restore and strengthen us through our Lord Jesus Christ. amen.
Dwh -
I don't think anyone here is really qualified to give legal advice? Have you discussed this with a lawyer?
Have you separated? Does she not have access to your joint accounts?
Hey dwh. Sorry you are here my friend. Start with reading sandi2's posts on the WW mindset. And don't be scared of your W. You do what's right for you so as long as the kids are ok and with you I'd keep a hold of my own money. After all you're just enabling.
Peace
Dhw15
You have come to a good place. Definitely get the books as they will help you u understand the process better. I feel for you and your children. My WW is an autism specialist and we own a business together. It is hard on a family to have special needs children . It certainly adds a complexity to the situation. You certainly should get advice from your lawyer. No need in having your folks play lawyer when you already pay for one. Keep posting and people will come.
I'm unemployed and down to a few weeks of remaining severance pay. Not to mention, the kids never spend an overnight with her and she barely sees the 2 special needs kids at all. The other 2 go over for dinner and spend 3-4 hours 2 or 3 times every week.
If the kids live with you, why are you paying her child support? I hope you have a shark lawyer, b/c your WW will try to wipe you out. Savings & checking accounts, pension, property, credit cards, etc., better be protected.......immediately!
Also, you need a lawyer who will really FIGHT for your rights as a father. She abandoned her children, two which are special needs.......surely to goodness the court would take that into consideration. Just do whatever it takes to protect yourself and those kids.
You really cannot afford to give her the benefit of doubt on any subject....in any area, now. This is not the girl your married, and she is not your friend. The longer you cushion her lifestyle, the longer she will be wayward while she and OM live on your dollar.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I wasn't asking for legal advice in terms of whether I should continue to funnel money to WW. It was more of a question on is it going to help or hurt me in terms of working towards a R in the M? I already asked my attorney and confirmed I am under no legal obligation to give her a dime until one of us files for D and a support order is issued. At this point, it doesn't matter since we had a big fight on the phone about money yesterday and I told her I was done. Yes, she's totally pissed off. And I know she was calling around looking for attorneys today. I'm meeting my own again tomorrow to fill him in and discuss strategy. I don't want things to get dirty but I do feel I need to place my own welfare and that of my children ahead of making WW happy right now.
The sad thing is that WW only works 20 hours/week and if she would simply get a full time job, even at min wage, she wouldn't have any trouble paying her own bills. She simply doesn't want to work full time. And somehow feels she is entitled to support from me, in spite of bare min time spent with the kids over past few months. And she doesn't want to ask the boyfriend for money either. Seems to me he should be the one helping her out. You can imagine how thrilled I was to hear that he just went out and financed a brand new motorcycle. So obviously things are not that bad for him.
I'll post again tomorrow after getting input from my attorney. For now main goal is protect my finances. I'm hoping that WW settles down once she realizes she has a hard battle on her hands and becomes more open to reason. I really don't see her and the biker guy lasting more than a few months but no idea what she would do after it falls apart. I know she was counting on me as Plan B up until very recently. She even asked at one point if it would be OK if she moved back home if they ever broke up. Early on, when I was still in my own fog, I foolishly agreed, but I think she's clear now that is not an option. She has never expressed true remorse about what she did and continues to do.
Based on what I read from H's threads, it is a difficult transition from their role as provider and protector of their W into a more isolated or independent position. What I'm saying is that while she has chosen to leave her family and her marriage, she freely removed herself from the umbrella of your protection and provision. She fired you as her H.
The best thing you can do for your stitch is to cut off any and all finances that are not court ordered for your WW. This is not encouragement to show vindictiveness, but to protect you and the children, and to hopefully cause her to see what she's done to herself. It is not your job to worry how she'll make it without your support. Unfortunatly, the WW who bombed her family, often has to deal with harsh reality before their fantasy world begins to crumble. When you were giving her $900 a month, that enabled her to continue staying in with the biker.
What you always considered as your responsibility toward your W will need to take a back seat so that you can rationalize from a different perspective. The heart of a wayward is extremely selfish. Yes, she feels entitled! It will get worse, so be prepared.
I have a thread about wayward wives, I encourage you to read it. Your W sounds as if she fits the bill.
Sandi, I'm thrilled to see a response from you. I actually spent a couple of hours yesterday going through the very thread you mentioned. So many light bulbs came on as I was reading it. Yes, no doubt in my mind my wife is a wayward. I'm hoping that maybe somehow she can snap out of it, but considering that this is not her first, but second affair (that I know about), I'm not feeling extremely confident. But I do still love her and decided that I owe me and the kids one last chance to try and make it work.
There's a very good chance that we will go through with a D at this point, but after filing it will be 6 months until final, so there's time. And I would even be open to R after D, and in fact find that somewhat preferable at this point as I would already have the legal and financial issues dealt with in case we never do get back together, or we try and then it doesn't work out. I am prepared for it to be a very long tough road ahead. My best guess is that she gradually checked out of our M over about a 2 or 3 year time period so I figured it's going to be around the same amount of time and a lot of hard work to get back to a good place. I'm in no rush right now so will take it day by day and see what happens.
So I met with my attorney this morning and gave him the full story of what has been going on. Based on my description of the past few months, he said I have a very strong case for nearly 100% custody of all the children and will not be responsible for much spousal support either. As opposed to the $900/month I have been providing, he speculated closer to $300 or $400/month max. He also confirmed again I have no legal obligation to give her a dime until someone files for D and a temp court order is issued. So for now, I'm playing the waiting game. I'm in no rush to file because that starts the ball rolling and then it's only a few weeks until a support order is in place. I'll let her raise the money to hire her own attorney and then come up with the $230 to actually file. It won't change anything and I'm ready to fight if/when necessary.
On an unrelated note, my W unexpectedly drops by today, walks right in with no invitation and starts rummaging through the house looking for some old medical paperwork. It really upset me that she didn't ask for permission or even give me a heads up she planned on coming over. She still tries to treat this as her home. I played it cool while she was here, told her I had no idea where that paperwork could be, and worked on dishes while she searched around. She left 10 minutes and I immediately called my attorney back and asked if I could keep her out. Not sure if it's legal since we're still technically a married couple with no other agreements in place. Even if he says I can't keep her out, I'm tempted to just fire off a text and say next time, please give me some notice before you come over. We've talked about it before and she had previously agreed but seems to be falling back into old habits, or simply doesn't care right now. I'm sure she's still extremely upset about me cutting off the money supply. Funny enough, when here today, she was all smiles and acting like everything was fine. Quite a change from 2 days ago when she was practically yelling at me about how unfair I was acting.
Also, I realize nobody can make guarantees, but in general, what is the course of these affairs? Does a WW ever actually stick around and form a long term R with the OM? Or do they tend to fall apart after a few months? In my case, WW has only known OM a total of around 7 months and only been romantic around 4, but she's already living with him, shared bank account, and in general acting like an old married couple who's known each other for years. It has all the classic signs of a rebound, so I'm thinking it's definitely got a limited shelf life, but curious what other experiences around here were like. The 1st A partner lasted around 18 months before WW kicked him to the curb. Somehow she finally woke up to the fact that he was a bum and never going to hold a regular job - she got sick of supporting him. Current guy is working full time at least, but I know they've already had a couple of major blowouts and she was on the verge of leaving him not too long ago. Doesn't seem to bode well for the future.
Now I realize even if it falls apart with current guy, that doesn't mean anything, as there's a good chance she just finds a new guy and starts the process all over again. But I am curious if anyone has a general idea how these things tend to go. I'm assuming that if she ever breaks it off with current OM and is actually single, that would be the time to try and start rebuilding some sort of R between us. I think if I find out she's in the sack with yet another guy, I'm done for good. I don't plan on waiting around forever while she destroys her life.
My DB coach Leni said MOST affairs tend to last 6-9 months. But of course, there are factors that could make them shorter or longer. For example, if they are long distance, they could go longer without that pressure of "normalcy". Also, the more you and the world fight against them, the more "is against the world" feeling they can have.
Quick update. Not much new today. WW took my oldest and youngest bowling yesterday, then had them over for dinner. They were back around 11pm, as usual. No contact with the 2 special needs boys, again as usual. I don't expect to hear anything from her today at all, since it's a Thursday. I slept well but woke up sort of depressed, like I've been doing past few days. But once I got up and got busy I felt OK. It's almost like getting over an addiction, trying to ween yourself off the expected daily contact from a WS. Getting easier with time so hoping I can completely detach over next couple weeks.
Haven't heard much at all lately from WW. Two of my 4 kids went over for dinner at her place last night, both back a few hours later. She tried calling me late last night but I didn't answer. I've told her text only unless an emergency, and I never got a text. Found out when the kids got home that she wanted to ask if she should come over and apply flea medicine to the dog, so yeah, nothing too important. I pretty much have gone dark on her, other than basic texting about the kids. It's a big change from just a couple of weeks ago, where I was texting every day, taking calls couple times a week and even hanging out as a family every couple of weeks. It was the perfect situation for her. No idea what kind of impact it's having by me pulling away but it IS helping me to detach so that's a good thing. Anyone have additional advice? I'm reading here every day and continue to be inspired by success stories, but still struggle with the reality.
It sounds as if you are doing a lot better at stabilizing and detaching. At this point in time, your main work is to continue cramming information that's available here on the board.
How is your self-esteem holding up? It really takes a beating in this type of crisis. Getting out and being around your guy friends and doing some fun actitivities will help some. Getting a life has powerful healing benefits.
If the depression doesn't let up, you may want to consider seeing your doctor. Many LBH'S need temporary meds to get through this period.
Just keep posting and reading. Weekends are a little slow on the board, so don't let it discourage you.
Thanks Sandi. Self esteem is OK, not great. I went on a date Thursday night with a woman from an online site. I know it goes against all conventional advice, but I signed up a few weeks ago, back in the midst of my worst depression and loneliness. Just wanted to feel wanted, if that makes sense. So I started messaging this woman online, leading to texting, phone calls, and first meet Thursday. It was nice, and I enjoy her company, but nothing happened physically and it reinforced in my mind how NOT ready I am for that. Since then, I've really slowed down communication and don't plan on meeting her again. But it was nice to feel desirable again, at least for a few days. I'm taking down any online dating profiles and don't plan on even attempting to date again until after D, should it come to that.
I do have a script for anti-depressives from my doctor but don't take them regularly. Some days I feel fine and others is more of a struggle. I'm doing my best at GAL, which includes very actively involved in my local church, including volunteer activities. I have reconnected with my immediate and extended family in ways I never thought possible, and now speak to my siblings and mother several times every week. It's gotten to the point they all ask me what is going on in the others lives. I've even gotten together with some cousins who I had not seen in years. I also attend a couple of local meetup events, which include outdoor activities like hiking and tennis.
My next project is tackling the house and getting it spotless. It's a challenge to keep the place clean with me and 4 boys here, and tbh, I have fallen way behind. So over next couple of weeks going to try and clean the place from top to bottom, remove clutter, power wash the floors, etc. That would be quite a shock to WW next time she walks in.
I do have a script for anti-depressives from my doctor but don't take them regularly. Some days I feel fine and others is more of a struggle
Well, I'm not a physician, but I don't think you take them on a "as needed" regiment. They have to have time to get into your system and stay in your system to be effective.
About the dating or communicating with other women, that is a personal choice. However, being in a vulnerable state, it would be easy for you to find yourself in an EA.......or even a PA, as it's been known to happen with others. That would definitely rough the road back home. So, be careful out there.
I do have a script for anti-depressives from my doctor but don't take them regularly. Some days I feel fine and others is more of a struggle
Well, I'm not a physician, but I don't think you take them on a "as needed" regiment. They have to have time to get into your system and stay in your system to be effective.
About the dating or communicating with other women, that is a personal choice. However, being in a vulnerable state, it would be easy for you to find yourself in an EA.......or even a PA, as it's been known to happen with others. That would definitely rough the road back home. So, be careful out there.
I think you are right on the anti-depressives, as my doctor did mention to keep taking them every day. I just hate depending on medication, when I feel that most days I do fine without.
The dating thing was def a bad idea, at least in my case. I caved in a few moments of weakness, but fortunately didn't let it get too far. Not only would it break my own vows and every moral/ethical boundary I hold dear, but I am in no mental state to be able to commit to anyone but my W right now. And I don't want to leave a trail of broken hearts behind me. I've barely had contact with that woman in 2 days and I think she gets it. If she persists, I'll simply tell her the truth that I jumped in way too soon to the dating world and am not ready yet.
I have a general question about how long do people generally take to start moving towards a R in the M? I realize that every sitch is different, but when do you know that enough time has passed and it's time to move on? My WW left 4 months ago so it's still very early for me. Everyone is pushing me to file for D, but I'm simply not ready. Now my WW may file herself and I'll be ready to defend myself if necessary in regards to child custody, but she doesn't seem in any hurry so far. Right now, I'm thinking I give it until around next April, which will a year of separation. If things haven't started to move in another direction by then, I don't see that they ever will. I mean, you can't wait around forever, right? My other concern is that in this state, once you pass 20 years of M, the courts start to consider permanent spousal support and I just crossed 18 years. It takes min 6 months from filing to finalize. So I definitely don't want to end up in that situation, paying support the rest of my life because I waited a few months too long, especially when the last 2 years of the M was separated. Anyway, just curious if people had a general idea of when to throw in the towel.
I think you are right on the anti-depressives, as my doctor did mention to keep taking them every day. I just hate depending on medication, when I feel that most days I do fine without.
I'm NOT a doctor or in the medical field.
But my guess is that you feel better because you started taking the medicine a few days before. I think starting and stopping is probably worse than just being on it. There's no shame in getting help.
I have a general question about how long do people generally take to start moving towards a R in the M? I realize that every sitch is different, but when do you know that enough time has passed and it's time to move on? My WW left 4 months ago so it's still very early for me. Everyone is pushing me to file for D, but I'm simply not ready. Now my WW may file herself and I'll be ready to defend myself if necessary in regards to child custody, but she doesn't seem in any hurry so far. Right now, I'm thinking I give it until around next April, which will a year of separation. If things haven't started to move in another direction by then, I don't see that they ever will. I mean, you can't wait around forever, right? My other concern is that in this state, once you pass 20 years of M, the courts start to consider permanent spousal support and I just crossed 18 years. It takes min 6 months from filing to finalize. So I definitely don't want to end up in that situation, paying support the rest of my life because I waited a few months too long, especially when the last 2 years of the M was separated. Anyway, just curious if people had a general idea of when to throw in the towel.
there is no set timeline for these. Sometimes,it's a month, sometimes it's years. Sometimes, it's never. There are no guarantees here except that if you put in the work, you will emerge from the other side of this a better person.
As for throwing in the towel, that's on you to decide. You can always file yourself if you feel it's time. Sometimes, it's the only way to move forward. But also, remember that divorce is just a piece of paper - it just changes your tax status. You still have the same problems to deal with in regards to you and your R with WW.
Thank you for the reply Matt. Another general question. Is the best technique for a WW who is currently living with OM to go dark? I'm pretty much lights out for past 2 weeks, with bare min texting regarding kids only. It's really hard, and is the longest I have ever went w/o having regular communication with WW. Sometimes I think about sending a friendly text, just so she doesn't think I hate her, but I have held out so far. I'm still waiting on the DB books to arrive so haven't read all of the LRT techniques yet, but have gotten a pretty good idea what they are from reading other people's stories. After going dark, how long do people usually wait before trying to start talking again?
Thank you for the reply Matt. Another general question. Is the best technique for a WW who is currently living with OM to go dark? I'm pretty much lights out for past 2 weeks, with bare min texting regarding kids only. It's really hard, and is the longest I have ever went w/o having regular communication with WW. Sometimes I think about sending a friendly text, just so she doesn't think I hate her, but I have held out so far
That part in bold is what will get your brain messed up. Plus, so many guys use this type of thinking as an excuse (although they won't admit it) to contact WW. LBH'S use their kids, too. Sure, they say they only contact for "kid related" only, but boy can they think of a lot of unnecessary kid related things!
I think the detaching will go better for you if you go dark while she's living with the OM. As long as she's with him, it won't be in your favor to try and be or have more than a coparenting connection.
When she believes you are pulling away from her, don't be surprised if she tries to do what we call emotional temp checking. That's when she does something to check your reaction and gauge your emotions about her. WW's want to feel they are still in control and have the H in the palm of their hand. Not bad for an ego shot, too. She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want her position replaced, or for that matter......to believe you can be happy without her. Yes, it's crazy. Very crazy.
I can't emphasize what Sandi said ^^^ enough. But to add to that, you need to think about healthy boundaries. One such boundary is, "you are living with or otherwise dating OM. I am unwilling to be in contact you while that is the case."
Now my WW may file herself and I'll be ready to defend myself if necessary in regards to child custody, but she doesn't seem in any hurry so far. Right now, I'm thinking I give it until around next April, which will a year of separation. If things haven't started to move in another direction by then, I don't see that they ever will. I mean, you can't wait around forever, right? My other concern is that in this state, once you pass 20 years of M, the courts start to consider permanent spousal support and I just crossed 18 years. It takes min 6 months from filing to finalize. So I definitely don't want to end up in that situation, paying support the rest of my life because I waited a few months too long, especially when the last 2 years of the M was separated. Anyway, just curious if people had a general idea of when to throw in the towel.
Divorce is never the end of the story, but you do need to consider the legal ramifications. Separate the feelings, and it's really just a business transaction. In many cases, the business transaction follows the feelings. In your case, that may be unwise and may contribute to your depression if left unchecked.
Some posit that depression is anger turned inwards. Can you imagine how many years you'll feel angry if you are paying permanent spousal support to a person that up and left?
I'm not telling you what to do in this case. I'm just trying to lay it out there for you to see and to understand.
You'll do what you do regardless
Breaking contact can be helpful. Radio silence will help you heal. There will be a few things you have to do with the kids together, but they can be minimized. I've been there. It can be done.
Make decisions for you and for the kids, and let your W figure herself out. But whatever you do, don't be that guy that follows like a puppy - it won't help your sanity and that's never an attractive trait. It's also something you can do to help yourself heal no matter what comes next.
AJ
Thank you so much for the thoughtful replies Sandi and AJM. In regards to texting WW about kid stuff, I was serious. I never initiate, only reply to direct questions, and then only the bare min required. Think I've sent maybe 9 or 10 texts in last 2 weeks. The kids have their own phones so a lot of times she'll just text them directly to ask how they are doing. I am rarely involved.
AJ, I have imagined how upset I would be about perm spousal support, which is why I decided that no way I am waiting until we would cross the 20 years M mark. In fact, I could make a strong case that I should prob proceed with D, just based on that fact alone. We can always work it out after, and just live together or get re-married and then I don't have that giant 20-year alimony threat looming in front of me. At this point, with no D filing, there is no temp support order, which means no money to WW, so I am holding steady for at least the next few months. My attorney even thought it was a smart plan, if I wasn't in a huge hurry to get it over with. She may file, at which point I am thoroughly prepared to defend myself and my parenting time, or at some point in the next few months I will prob go ahead and do it myself.
I am certainly not following her around like a puppy, at least not anymore. I think it was quite a shock to her when I finally cut off the money supply and she hasn't even really attempted to be "friendly" since. For now, I'll plan on staying as dark as possible, keep detaching, working on GAL for myself, and taking care of the kids to best of my ability. It seems so ironic that in order to even have a shot at rebuilding, I basically have to let it go completely. And then I wonder, if I get to that point, will I even want it anymore? Guess I have a lot of work ahead so will cross that bridge when I come to it. Thanks again guys.
DWH
What did your L recommend on the D, If I understand it seems to leave WW out of funds but don't exceed the 20 year M line? If he is the L of your choice I would go with that.
WW is living with OM2 and it's likely OM1 was creating a spoiler by telling you about their A. There is no reason to fund WW affair, any cash you give WW will be spent on her A and that seems unfair to me considering your tight position on funds. If you don't have to fund her in my book don't. protect yourself and your children, it's absolutely vital for the longer term.
Any good noises on the career front? I guess that's your full time goal, as well as looking after your children. I can see you have a full time role with two challenged children amoung your four kids.
I can only endorse the views of Sandi on this one and I like AJM way of looking at this too.
Could I ask you to do me a favour and fill in your strap line, if you look at my post it's the bit at the bottom, you can access it by going to My stuff edit, you will get more posters too as they can more easily understand your sitch in a précis.
V
Thanks for the suggestion V. Strap line should now have my critical info. No luck on career yet, but TBH I only recently started focusing on it. I was lucky in that I received 15 weeks of severance pay so have a little time to find something. And I knew I was not mentally ready to tackle a brand new job up until recently. I wanted to make sure I could throw myself into it and impress.
Regarding OM#1, I have no doubt that he was hoping to spoil the A with OM#2, although he didn't provide many details on that front. He only admitted to his own A and mentioned briefly that she was already with another man. Which WW adamantly denied of course, up until April, when she confessed that she had in fact been seeing OM#2. Had I not been in total shock, I would have kicked her to the curb way back in March and never offered any support at all. It MAY have been enough to wake her up and possibly keep her from progressing with OM#2, to the point where he finally asked her to move in. But 20-20 hindsight. Nothing to do about it now but keep moving forward and hope for the best. What's really frustrating to me through this whole experience is that WW has refused to discuss much of anything about our M, or the problems that got us here. Of course I have some idea but would have liked to hear things from her perspective. She considers it a waste of time and thinks I just want to talk her into changing her mind, so she has never gave me any reasons, and now things have progressed to the point we barely speak so no idea how I'm ever going to get those reasons. I guess I keep doing LRT and hope that she eventually wants to discuss things on her own terms. I'm certainly not bringing it up anymore.
Quick general question. Since the big blowout on money last week, WW has been avoiding contacting me at all, and going directly to kids to set up plans for picking them up, etc. So far, it's worked out OK, but it just annoys me. Like she's doing this for payback. We don't have any court order but the general setup has been she takes them around 6 or 7pm every M, W, and F. Would it be advisable for me to send a text asking her to send info regarding the kids? Or just let her keep doing what she's been doing, and assume that they are mine until 7pm every night, and if that conflicts with her plans, oh well, since she doesn't bother to inform me.
If it suits you and the kids are happy I would go with the care pattern. Why disturb, in due course you can formalise with an online schedule. If you work then Iassume change will be needed anyway.
I doubt if WW advised you about the M then it would make much sense. WW has scrambled eggs for brains, there could be blame, spew and misdirection. In due course history will be rewritten.
Detach dwh and work on your sitch, on you. Getting dwh to a good place is crucial, it's you were are interested in supporting.
V
Having been in your situation, I would go with Vanilla's advice. My ex was nutso and so is her OM (husband now). I won't bore you with the details, but suffice to say it has taken many years to get them off my back. I took a lot of cr@p to ensure my kids were well taken care of. And I kept my sanity along the way.
I am now at the end of that - my youngest turns 18 next month and there will be no more contact. But along the way I formalized the schedule and was careful to adhere to it. I was tested many times, believe me but I learned to not take the bait. My rule of thumb was to decide how it affected the kids before I acted and then to only act in their best interest. That helped keep me from being petty and or destructive many times. I'm glad I did it that way, although it wasn't easy.
Keep your expectations of her at zero. Literally. Do not expect any kindness or reciprocal treatment. If it happens, then so much the better, but if not, no impact and the kids will benefit from that. Immensely. And because of that, you'll be much more at peace with your choices.
And then I wonder, if I get to that point, will I even want it anymore?
I wouldn't worry about that. I know you do because you can't see the bigger picture, but believe me, it won't serve you to worry about it and it'll only keep you stuck in the past. Worry about your kids and yourself. That's enough for now. And that's more than enough to keep you busy.
Until you can handle those things and handle them well, don't let yourself worry about the rest. Right now you wouldn't be in a position to deal with that anyway. You'll see that more clearly later. Trust me.
Peace,
AJ
Wow AJ, thanks for the reply, but you've been through this and your wife actually married the other dude? I've got to go read your thread now. Man, that is discouraging, but I suppose every situation can't end like a Disney movie. As I get further out, especially with the min contact, I do notice that the days are getting easier. For the first couple months, she had it made, with me acting like her BFF, giving her money, shoulder to cry on, etc. As soon as I rock the boat, she goes full force B##tch on Wheels. I'm sure she thinks she is punishing me with breaking off contact. We'll see how long it lasts. The reality is she did me a big favor, as I was stuck in Denial, still desperately hoping she would come to her senses any day and come back home. I can finally detach, and move on with my life, whatever that happens to look like. I still love her, and would like the chance to make it work, especially with 4 kids involved, but I don't want to put everything on hold for the next few years while she runs around acting like a crazy person. I really don't know if she's going to snap out of it, and looking back I can see signs of problems as long as 5 years ago, where she really transformed into a different person. Can somebody who's been lost for that long ever truly recover? Maybe, but I'm getting more skeptical by the day. Even WW's own family doesn't recognize her; they talk to me more often than her and all are pulling for me to get full custody of the kids. I'm going to spend the day with her sister this weekend. My family jokes that after a D, I'll be saying I won WW's family as part of the settlement. It's all just very sad.
Journaling: My WW texted me today around 1pm while I was meeting brother for lunch. Asked how my 10-year-old was doing, since she hadn't really seen him in almost 2 weeks. I replied he was fine. Then she mentioned picking him up after she got out of work at 3pm and spending some time together. I replied I thought it was a good idea and said I would have him ready.
So she stops by the house around 3:15pm and seemed overall in good spirits. It was the first time we had physically seen each other in almost a week. I was worried but overall the interaction went fine. We talked briefly about the kids, she asked if she could borrow some Motrin, as she was out, and I let her. I stayed very calm and disconnected the whole time. She mentioned something about how her and OM had been sleeping on recliners in the living room instead of the bed, due to how uncomfortable the bed was. No idea why she brought it up, but I didn't bite on the topic. She stayed around 10 minutes, then left with S10 to go grab a bite to eat and hang out for a while. Overall, I feel it went fine, and am glad to see we can be in the same room without glaring daggers at each other. I plan on being gone when she brings S10 back later - no reason to chance a bad encounter after a good one like this.
Sounds ok to me.
Detached like a vet
V
Thanks V. I'm never sure how I'm doing at the time but I felt good about it after she left. I wasn't overly friendly, but I was responsive. Didn't really smile much but not mad either. Acted more detached, like I didn't care if she was there or not. That's the right way to play it, right? I always read how you should act happy, self confident, etc. but I'm not quite ready for that yet. But I can pull off distant and detached no problem.
Basically Dwh like a neighbour you like. So if you would say "great weather, how are you" or " I was sad to hear about your car being stolen, has it been found?" or "how are your gallstones, I heard you were in hospital" . Admin on things other than your children. Immediate attention and care with co parenting. L on fins (financial matters) as there is often more heat than light on that.
Soft warm friendly tone, interested but no more. Smile, stand confident and leave the conversation first.
In my own case I have complete NC and have no intention of treating my WH in any friendly way, he is an abuser so it's not appropriate. No more R so talk through my L, am telling you this because I want to show the contrast. Warmth to indifference, note that I am not being hostile, just business like, like a grey breeze block. In your case you are paving the way home without chasing or perusing. A stance of standing for your M but not running around in circles.
V
HELP!! WW calls me this afternoon in tears. She got in a huge fight with OM and is moving out. She is out of town the next 2 nights with a friend but I know she is thinking she can just move back home when she returns. I haven't agreed, and told her I thought it was a bad idea, but she got defensive and said I couldn't keep her out of her own home. Now legally, no idea where I stand at the moment. I'll be checking with my attorney first thing tomor to verify whether I have the legal right to refuse her living here. Since there is no official D filing or separation agreement yet, not sure how that all works.
But my bigger question is really: is it a good idea for a possible R in the M? I can tell that she's deeply hurt and still has strong feelings for OM. In fact, he gave her the Love You But Not In Love speech - oh sweet Karma. I may not even have a choice but to let her back, at least temporarily, but curious if anyone had input on best way to handle it, assuming that's where I end up. I know sometimes people live together as roommates and are able to still work on things. It's not what I wanted, and I was totally unprepared for something like this. Any and all feedback appreciated.
Dwh
Please consider that which is best for you and indeed consult L.
WW isn't returning as a positive 'yes, yes, yes I want to be with dwh, let's work it out, I am so very sorry and I have true remorse for my A. let's piece, go to MC anything to make a new M'
It's more of 'my heart is broken by OM and I need a hole to crawl into' , woe is me'. Response.
You really need a vet like Wonka or Starsky on this one. I suggest a shout out to one of them. You could also have a read of HPoirots thread and post there.
All I can do is support you. what do you want and is WW ready to give that?
If your gut is saying WW isn't ready to come home or you are not ready for that, I would listen.
V
Dwh,
This is a tough position to be in. Hopefully wonka or starsky will be here soon. Praying for you.
Thanks for the replies. It's not that I don't want WW home, but I know that right now, her mind is on OM. She's heart broken, and I can hear it in her voice. I can hear the pain. Funny, I thought I would be glad when this day came. Instead, I'm just sad. I care for her and hate to see her hurting. I'm under no illusion that she moves home and all is restored. Given any other reasonable alternative, I don't want her back in the house. I think it's unfair to the children and extremely unfair to me. We have enough space that she can sleep in a separate room, but that would make life extremely uncomfortable, and I'm worried would set all of us up for new heartbreak all over again, especially the kids. I can't even be sure that she wouldn't want to continue to pursuit the R with OM. It's obvious that she still has very strong feelings towards him, and he is the one putting on the brakes. I'll check with my attorney in the morning but I'm really hoping another solution presents itsself. I don't want her here but I don't want to have to be the one who tells her NO either.
One last quick update. She texted me to say she made it OK to the friends house, which is around 2 hours away. I replied that I was glad she made it and reminded her she was not alone. I said we would figure something out. Then I told her to try and have a good night. She replied with an "I love u" and "It means ALOT". I don't read anything into it, other than she's scared to death and extremely emotional right now. I really don't know best way to proceed. It would have been so much easier if she had shown even an ounce of remorse, but I don't see anything other than sadness over the A ending.
Dwh the answer is inside of you, listen to your inner sane balanced voice. It will come to you in those quiet gentle moments of peace.
You will hear from your higher power when the emotional drama subsides in those seemingly vacant spaces. Listen to the love for yourself, your children and WW.
Breathe, let it unfold in time. That whispering voice is persistent in its call, just a moment of concentration to hear it.
V
Thank you V. So I contacted attorney and confirmed that legally, I can keep WW out of the house. I'm the only one on the deed, and she left months ago and changed her mailing address. He said she may call the police but just to explain the situation and they would ask her to leave. I'm hoping it doesn't get that dramatic but prepared for anything.
Last I heard, she was driving back into town to talk with OM, so my guess is that they patch things up, at least temporarily. I'll know more in a few hours. I've decided I can't let her come back home, regardless of what happens today. She's not anywhere close to the right mindset, and it's not fair to me or the kids to have to deal with her drama. Her sister offered her a place to stay, and even though it's 2 hours away, that might be for the best right now. We can work out something on visitation with the kids. The rest she has to figure out on her own. I really wish things were different but I think the best way for me to help her and my family right now is to not help her. She needs to bottom out. Wish me luck.
Well, as I figured, WW patched things up with OM. It's probably the easiest situation to handle right now, but I would be lying if I didn't admit part of me is disappointed. Was hoping maybe she would end it and be single for a while, giving the two of us at least a chance to rebuild. No way can that happen with OM in the picture. Sort of feeling down, but still resolved to keep moving forward.
dwh... I've read up on your situation, and I can see how much you want to help your WW. I can tell you are a nice guy and thoughtful and caring. I relate to this characteristics, as I think I have some of them (X would probably disagree though...).
For a first time post on your thread I may be speaking, harshly. I'm sorry but I am going to be the devil's advocate. I'd ask you to remember that the way you behave impacts how she behaves. Specifically, I see you as somewhat of an enabler. When she left and you were separated, you gave her money. When she called crying that her artificial world was crashing down you said "I replied that I was glad she made it and reminded her she was not alone. I said WE would figure something out." You consistently have the tone that you are still a team. Please remember you aren't. She left you and will use you to get what she wants. Hence the I LOVE YOU when she wanted back into the house. It truly is that simple.
Learn from Squiggy. He separated himself from his wife and laid boundaries, knowing that she needed to realize she contributed to the problem and show remorse for what has happened before coming back. His first major boundary was to discuss only issues related to their son. Second was to work with a lawyer to serve her D papers.
Your WW spends time with 2 of your boys, but what about the other 2. She leaves but then comes home whenever she requires something. You and that house are a tool for her to get what she wants. Nothing more. She will manipulate the situation and put the entire burden on you.
Please give some thought to progressing to a business like relationship with her, culminating in serving her D papers. When talking to her validate and do not argue, but also realize that you shouldn't be picking up the phone every time she calls or texts. Sometimes the worst thing you can do is answer the phone.
I think you could learn a lot from Squiggy. He served his W with papers and yet they are now discussing openly and honestly how to move forward together. The gamble obviously is being divorced, but she has cheated and left you twice. You deserve someone who wants to be with you, working towards the same goals.
Was hoping maybe she would end it and be single for a while, giving the two of us at least a chance to rebuild. No way can that happen with OM in the picture. Sort of feeling down, but still resolved to keep moving forward.
The chance to rebuild a quality life will only happen when she understands that she contributed, hurt you and shows remorse. The OM is the drug she is on. But just like the first man he will come and go. Honestly the OM already said ILYBINILWY, that is not a recipe for a long term relationship.
Sounds to me that the OM and WW R is in a tough place. Give it time and let her figure it out. If their having these problems already the R is bound to fail.
Thank you V. So I contacted attorney and confirmed that legally, I can keep WW out of the house. I'm the only one on the deed, and she left months ago and changed her mailing address. He said she may call the police but just to explain the situation and they would ask her to leave. I'm hoping it doesn't get that dramatic but prepared for anything.
Last I heard, she was driving back into town to talk with OM, so my guess is that they patch things up, at least temporarily. I'll know more in a few hours. I've decided I can't let her come back home, regardless of what happens today. She's not anywhere close to the right mindset, and it's not fair to me or the kids to have to deal with her drama. Her sister offered her a place to stay, and even though it's 2 hours away, that might be for the best right now. We can work out something on visitation with the kids. The rest she has to figure out on her own. I really wish things were different but I think the best way for me to help her and my family right now is to not help her. She needs to bottom out. Wish me luck.
I am glad that you have worked this through. I wanted to read this from you before seeing you receive 4x2s the reason for that is that your heart is open and broken and only you can decide having WW home is not the right thing for this dad and his kids. You can see that RD still has an open home for his WW and it's a very tough road but he is quite detached whereas at this time you aren't.. This decision is so important for you and the start of detachment for you.
This patch will be temporary I think between WW and OM. There has been a BD between them, the dreaded ILYB....... has been spoken. Those words can never be unspoken. They are a caustic that will burn through any patch, even a welded one.
For the moment you have time, precious wonderful healing time to breathe and recover. It is the gift of time as Cadet says. The longer WW is crazy with OM the more space you have for healing and becoming.
That peace may be disturbed by WW in due course I think, even if it is not immediate best to be prepared for it.
You are doing well.
V
Thanks everyone for the replies. Been having a very hard time of it today. As much as I tried not to have hope, the thought of her leaving OM had set in and given me false hope. I feel I had been doing well but this has definitely set me back a few weeks. I need to throw myself back into LRT and GAL. Already have plans with family this weekend so that will help.
Mahhhty, thanks so much for jumping in. I've been thinking a lot about the last couple of days and how I responded. For the last few weeks, I actually had been doing quite well, texting only about kid issues, never initiating, etc. When WW called on Wed, I figured it was something to do with kids, as it was her night to take them, and she had not actually called me in quite a while. As soon as I heard her in tears, it was hard not to want to comfort her. I was trying to walk the line between being supportive in her time of need but still staying detached. I thought I pulled it off, we talked for a few and I validated her feelings like crazy, but in hindsight, I probably would have been better off not even taking the call. After we spoke, she even came by the house so I could check her tire pressure before leaving town. I agreed to do it out of concern, and one of the tires was extremely low. I never know where to draw the line - I don't want her getting stranded on the side of the road. Was that too nice? I also gave her money for gas, again probably not a great idea. I agree - I am enabling her. I think I was so excited at the fact she might actually be leaving OM that I was doing everything in my power to help her along that path.
Well, I learned a hard lesson and won't be making the same mistakes again. As everyone pointed out, the R between those 2 is toxic and bound to eventually fall apart. It was obvious from Day 1 that neither of them is in an emotional or mental state to carry on a healthy, long term R. I've heard before: hurt attracts hurt, broken attracts broken. They are both hurting and broken. The next time things fall apart, I'm making myself unavailable to talk, or help her in any way. It may be hard, but I think that's what she needs to feel, and it will be better for me. I hate that I set myself up on this and slid back so far.
Wanted to add a little info on my plans for filing for D. My attorney has all the information on my sitch, and is ready to file as soon as I give the word. For now, I am holding off on purpose. First of all, with no D papers, there is no temp support order, meaning I don't have to give WW a dime, and other than a few dollars for gas this week, she won't be getting any more help from me. The other advantage is that I am logging daily the time she spends or more accurately, does not spend, with the kids. As previously mentioned, she rarely sees my special needs boys at all. The more time that passes with it being this way, the stronger my case to get full custody. My attorney said that the court is very likely to continue the status quo, especially if it has been going on for months.
Now, WW can certainly file herself if she chooses, but I know she doesn't have money to hire an attorney. She probably couldn't even come up with the $230 filing fee. So for now, I'm playing a waiting game. I know I can't drag it out forever, but with my current unemployed status, I'm happy to not be paying her support for at least a few more weeks. My biggest concern, as previously mentioned, is crossing the 20-year M mark and risking an order of perm spousal support. We hit 18 years at the end of May, and there is a mandatory 6-month waiting period after filing in this state, so I need to make sure I time it so I don't get too close to finalizing around May of 2017. In fact, I hate to say it, but I keep thinking that regardless of whether things start to turn around with WW, I need to go through with a D, just to avoid the possibility of that perm support. I would hate to reconcile, and then have it fall apart in a couple of years. I'll have to check with my attorney. Maybe we could do something like a post-nuptial agreement on that issue if we get to that point, so it wouldn't be a concern.
Dwh
Frankly I think this crazy loco of WW behaviour is good for you to observe, I am sorry if that sounds cruel, it isn't meant to be, like all sitches I wish it were different and there was less pain for you. And since it suits you then you can go brinkman on starting filing for April 2017 (filing six months earlier; that makes it more or less late October 2016), that's a long time in DB.
Also I think I would check a neighbours tyre pressure for them if it looked dangerous. So not one to beat yourself up over. plus WW may carry your precious cargo in the car! But I wouldn't put petrol in the car, if that makes sense?
V
Frankly I think this crazy loco of WW behaviour is good for you to observe, I am sorry if that sounds cruel, it isn't meant to be, like all sitches I wish it were different and there was less pain for you.
V
It doesn't sound cruel, but how does it help me? Yes, I can see that she is clearly not acting like a sane person, but doesn't change my feelings.
And since it suits you then you can go brinkman on starting filing for April 2017 (filing six months earlier; that makes it more or less late October 2016), that's a long time in DB.
What does it mean to "go brinkman"? I don't plan on waiting all the way until Oct 2016. Don't wanna cut it that close to the 20-year mark and honestly not sure if I have it in me to drag it out that long. Plus, I don't see WW waiting that long to file herself if I continue not giving her any support at all. Right now, I'm thinking my personal deadline is around March 2016 to file. That will be a year since the first BD. If I haven't seen any changes in my sitch by then, I don't think I will want to continue waiting.
Regarding the Petrol, yes I get what you mean. It was a moment of weakness on my part. I saw her hurting and wanted to help however I could. She asked for the money, but I should have said I couldn't afford it, or wasn't comfortable giving it to her. Lesson learned.
It may not change your feelings now but I think it could change the way you look at it and help you detach.
The brinkmanship point was that you could not that you should or want to. Just it's an option, apologies if it was unclear.
V
WW just sends me a TM: "What's up?"
That's it, after her life was falling apart just 2 days ago and I helped her as much as I could. Pretty much lights out yesterday, and then that today. Like all is right with the world again.
So I'm sitting on it for at least an hour. When I reply, I'm redirecting straight to kids. Something like "The kids asked if they would be seeing you tonight." Time to get down to business.
Dwh, it's temp checking.
I would choose to delete it.
V
YES. DELETE.
Remember being a strong man, and being a person who wants to save his marriage means you need to be a strong man, choose a path that works for you, for your kids, and that gives you the best chance.
That means, sometimes you have to do what does not come natural. Work on figuring out how you can drop the rope.
Money, gas money, tire pressure are some examples on how you are enabling her, or cushioning her fall. She is a big girl, making large decisions. One thing children learn is how to deal with the consequences of their decisions. Its time she did that as well, and you let her.
Thanks guys. The only reason I mentioned replying about kids is because it is Friday, a night she normally takes them, and I hadn't heard a peep and neither had any of the kids. So here's the full TM convo:
WW: What's up?
Me: (hour later) Hey. Kids were asking about tonight. Did you have plans?
WW: Talked to S18. He was coming over after working out.
WW: Possibly go to my friends house.
Me: So are they set for dinner?
WW: Yeah
That was the end of it. I specifically asked about dinner plans because a couple of weeks ago, after the big money blowout, she had said that she would not be making dinner for the kids at all and I needed to provide it before they came over. So I basically confirm or have the kids confirm ahead of time on the nights they see mom. Yes, it's totally ridiculous, but my attorney recommended to let it go and let her just keep digging that hole. So if I have to make dinner for my boys 7 nights/week, that's what I'll do. Fortunately, she seems to have calmed down since then and is back to providing meals, but as usual, it's mostly just S8 and S18 that goes to see her. Tonight, I'm with S10 and S15, the same way it goes down 95% of the time.
dwh...
why did you say this?
Me: (hour later) Hey. Kids were asking about tonight. Did you have plans?
Me: So are they set for dinner?
dwh...
why did you say this?
Me: (hour later) Hey. Kids were asking about tonight. Did you have plans?
Me: So are they set for dinner?
I explained why in the post. We have an informal arrangement where she takes the kids every Mon, Wed, and Fri. Seeing as how it's a Fri and I had not heard a word, I wanted to confirm if she was planning to spend time with the kids or not. If not, I needed to make arrangements for dinner for all of us. Over the past few weeks, WW has been unreliable so even though we have this arrangement, it's never 100% safe for me to assume she will follow through. She has cancelled on more than one occasion, and often with little notice. I don't see any problem with asking about the kids on a night she normally takes them. Am I missing something? If so, please let me know. I'm wide open to taking advice.
I think if WW lets the kids down its her bag.
Let it happen, then go get a fun pizza for all of you.
V
Point taken. So basically, I should be prepared for dinner regardless, assuming that she may cancel at any minute. Then if it gets past 7pm (the usual pick-up time) with no word, then I'm free to do whatever I want with the kids since she pulled a no-show. Guess I can try that, although it certainly does make it difficult to set plans. Suppose that's what I have to deal with right now, having a WW living in la-la land.
Point taken. So basically, I should be prepared for dinner regardless, assuming that she may cancel at any minute. Then if it gets past 7pm (the usual pick-up time) with no word, then I'm free to do whatever I want with the kids since she pulled a no-show. Guess I can try that, although it certainly does make it difficult to set plans. Suppose that's what I have to deal with right now, having a WW living in la-la land.
Absolutely. family GAL, her loss.
V
Journaling: WW calls the home phone last night and I let it go to VM. She then calls my cell, and the kids are still with her, so I pick it up. Turns out S8 was thinking about spending the night but wanted to talk to dad. He still struggles with the decision and hasn't stayed with mom that often, but I could tell he wanted to and was feeling guilty, so I spent around 5 minutes reassuring him that it was fine. It seemed to cheer him up and he did end up staying.
This morning, WW sends a text that he had bad allergies and she actually got him to swallow a regular allergy pill. That's a big step, since he usually takes the kid stuff in liquid form. I sent a single reply saying "Our boy is growing up. Tell him dad is proud." Couple minutes later, WW replies "He giggled". So I feel pretty good about that, as it was strictly child related, and for me, somewhat of a 180. One of WWs complaints was that I never said anything positive to the kids, always criticism. Did I do alright?
DWH
I have been following your sitch a bit. I think you are doing a great job. In my mind, you are reinforcing that you are a great dad to your kids. That is always good. Also, if it is a 180 from before, then that is even better. Just make sure you are doing it for yourself and the kids. If your WW notices, thats a bonus. No expectations.
Thanks Jeff. WW dropped off S8 about an hour ago. I had asked her to give me a heads up before dropping him off so I was prepared, but she didn't. She came in the house, said Hi to all the other boys, spent a few minutes looking for some crib sheets that we used to have, since she has a friend who needs them, and then left. It was all very pleasant. She seemed in a good mood, I was smiles and talkative, but after she left, I felt like I got punched in the gut. The face to face interactions are still hard.
Oh, she also gave me a 1-arm hug as she was leaving. Took me by surprise so I reciprocated also 1-arm, but not sure if that was smart or not. I never initiate but how should I be responding when she initiates stuff like that?
Hi dwh, the advice on hugs is - pretend it's Grandma - and you can't go too far wrong..
T :-)
Grandma has a beard and hatpins.
But only on tuesdays
V
V, hah! That is one scary grandma image. So friendly hugs are OK, as long as she initiates. Got it. Funny how it's settled down from a few weeks ago, where we were doing full bear hugs and even quick kiss on the lips. I put a stop to that after I realized it was full-on cake eating. Since the blowout on money, she hasn't really tried it either, although I did give her a big full hug the other day, when she was in tears and on the verge of leaving OM. She just looked so pitiful and scared I couldn't help myself. Lesson learned though - I won't be doing that again.
Yeah, comforting them on anything OM related isn't a good idea. They got themselves into that situation, they can deal with it.
Right Fogg. It was a mistake. I got so caught up and excited about the idea she might actually be leaving OM that I got carried away. As I said, lesson learned. The next blowout can't be far down the road. She's had complaints about him almost from Day 1. I used to hear about them, back when I was trying to play the BFF role, but since I put a stop to that, no idea anymore. But based on what I heard recently, combined with what I already knew, that R is built on a house of cards. I don't think it's a matter of IF but WHEN it comes tumbling down. And next time, she's gonna be on her own to figure out the tough questions like where she'll live, how she'll make ends meet, etc. I know she still thinks of me as the backup plan, but it's gonna be a hard reality hitting her in the face. Tough love I guess you would say. It's gonna kill me but I know it has to be done for WW to have any chance at coming to her senses.
Boy, am I having a hard time tonight. I think between the drama earlier in the week, and then having to see her again today, it's taken a toll on me. Really struggling not to fire off a text and check in. But I haven't - I know better. Boy, this DB stuff is hard.
Just had a random thought. It was mid 80s and muggy here today. Next week looks as bad or worse. WW has central AC but it apparently broke and I guess they don't have money to fix it. My S18 said the last time he was over and it was this hot, her house was miserable inside. Can you say consequences? I can't help but smile a little bit thinking about it while I lay here in a comfortable AC cooled home, which she CHOSE to leave.
Well, I slept pretty well, and not feeling nearly as down this morning as I was yesterday. Been thinking about some of WW's complaints and realized that one of her big ones was she felt ignored and not loved. And I can see how she might have felt that way, even though it was never my intention. Given that, is going dark or dim the best way to handle my sitch? She's still with OM, so maybe that is the way to handle it, but I am worried that maybe it comes across as more of the same. Although I certainly don't want to enable her cake eating, as that's what I did for the first few weeks, trying to be her BFF, and I didn't feel it was helping me at all. She had everything she needed, with no motivation at all to want to patch things up with me romantically. Has anyone had a similar sitch and successfully navigated out of the storm?
dwh,
I think dark isn't possible with kids anyway.
I would validated like the best of them, and deflect a lot. If WW main complaint was neglect that won't help you. If neglect has invalidated you will need the magic 5:1 ratio, five validation to every invalidations. I did post how to kill your marriage, a sort of reverse invalidation post. Do check out validation cheat sheet by Wonka. Pure magic.
There is a thread on going dark somewhere. I will see if I can find it for you. It's one of Sandis I think.
Found it, but the link icon sometimes doesn't work on this iPad, apologies if it times out whilst I do it:
going darkV
Link to how to invalidate, a tiny bit tongue in cheek!
how to invalidateWonkas validation cheat sheet:
how to validateV
Thank You so much V for the links. I have been validating WW at every opportunity, but unfortunately I don't seem to get many. My best shot was a few days ago when she was having trouble with OM and really opened up, and got into our own R a little. I validated almost every sentence out of her mouth. She was saying things like "I deserve to be loved". Me: "Yes you do". Her: "I'm not settling anymore in a relationship." Me: "No, you shouldn't have to." But those types of situations don't come up very often, and I'm not sure I want the time I'm doing it to be when she's had a fight with OM. I already decided next time that happens I need to stay out of it let her figure it out without any help from me.
On my daily GAL activity, I took the kids and spent the day with my sister-in-law (WW's sister). Kids went swimming and we had a great spread of BBQ food. Talked with the in-laws for quite a while. They were asking me for updates, as they don't hear from WW at all anymore. Pretty sad, considering how close she used to be to her sisters. I think that maybe WW feels judged by everyone who used to be in her life and has pulled away almost completely. She has surrounded herself with "new" friends. Her family all really likes me and is hoping we can somehow patch things up. I promised to keep in touch and keep my kids involved in their lives, especially since my W seems to have no interest in doing so right now. So it was a good day overall, and I'm in pretty good spirits, getting ready to settle in for the night. Quite a change from yesterday. Hoping to take the kids to a zoo later this week, and maybe do some putt-putt golf on a different day. My GAL activities have to be centered around the kids, since they are with me 95% of the time, but that's OK by me. It's family GAL time. I did text WW a pic of the younger boys playing in the pool and got a quick reply saying Glad they having fun and send everyone my love. Hoping for more positive days ahead.
Validating is great for all R just try it on yourself too.
Spread liberally with a trowel, shovel even, tipper truck even better.
V
Yeah, comforting them on anything OM related isn't a good idea. They got themselves into that situation, they can deal with it.
On other things, like a bereavement or illness I think it is.
V
I'm not sure I want the time I'm doing it to be when she's had a fight with OM. I already decided next time that happens I need to stay out of it let her figure it out without any help from me.
IMO, I do not believe it is a good thing if the WW turns to LBH to discuss her feelings for OM and their "relationship". It shows no respect for her H, which is one of the major problems with a WW. I believe the H needs to tell her, nicely, that it is not appropriate and he feels very uncomfortable hearing her discuss her feelings for another man. If she continues as though he said nothing, he should say, "Okay, I need to go now, bye".
Actually, she wants someone to lick her wounds and tell her what a great person she is and how OM is nuts to let her slip through his fingers. It's not that hard to see her turning to the one she's been M to all these years. But a WW has narcissistic characteristics, and the LBH would do well to remember she is not turning to him out of love.
Even if WW and OM broke up, it would not fix the M. She would use you to secure her a place to stay, etc., until something else caught her eye. She though all she had to do was throw a ILY and that's all it would require for her to pick up where she left off in the home. However, her wayward nature was not ready to give up OM. Be thankful she didn't move back home and then go back to OM.
I have not observed a successful reconciliation whenever the LBH makes it too easy for the WW to come back. She has to go through a process, which usually takes quite a while. If the LBH allows her to use him as a rubber ball, she may never see him as the man she really wants.
I haven't known any healthy male who wanted to be the "rebound". Even in early dating years, I never knew any guys in school who wanted girls to see them as just a friend, love him like a brother, or date him on a rebound.......(only for her to talk to him about the boy she
really liked).
What has changed that scenario is that now these are adults and there is a legal M and family involved.......which makes it worse. Somehow though, I think deep down........the dynamics, or makeup, are about the same.
I'm not sure I want the time I'm doing it to be when she's had a fight with OM. I already decided next time that happens I need to stay out of it let her figure it out without any help from me.
Actually, she wants someone to lick her wounds and tell her what a great person she is and how OM is nuts to let her slip through his fingers. It's not that hard to see her turning to the one she's been M to all these years. But a WW has narcissistic characteristics, and the LBH would do well to remember she is not turning to him out of love.
Even if WW and OM broke up, it would not fix the M. She would use you to secure her a place to stay, etc., until something else caught her eye. She though all she had to do was throw a ILY and that's all it would require for her to pick up where she left off in the home. However, her wayward nature was not ready to give up OM. Be thankful she didn't move back home and then go back to OM.
Great feedback Sandi, and I agree completely. In my case WW was definitely wanting me to tell her how great she was (which I did) and how OM would be crazy to let her get away (which I did NOT). I was doing my best to boost her self esteem, while not encouraging that she return to him. It was a desperate play on my part, and one that I will not repeat. The next time (and I'm sure there WILL be a next time) I'm not taking the bait. It's really hard to not comfort her, but I realize it's not doing me any good.
The thing I am proud of is that I never did agree to let her move back in, and in fact told her it was not a good idea, would be unfair to the kids and to me. But I did agree to help her figure out something, which I'm thinking was also a mistake. This is her mess, and I believe I have to let her deal with the fallout when things go badly with OM. She has to feel the consequences. Only when she's totally over with him and realizing how hard and different life is really going to be without either him or me in it, will we have any chance to try and work on our M.
One last thing. Noticed a couple of nights ago that WW posted a status on FB that simply said "Don't judge my life by the chapter you walked in on." It was made around 2:30am, which is VERY late for her, as she gets up at 7am most days. I know it's mind reading, but seems like she may have been having a hard time sleeping and is trying very hard to justify her decisions.
Validating is different Dwh, validating would be saying "yes I can see you have an issue with where you live, I know you are resourceful so will work it out, let me know your new address"
It isn't saying " please come live here" nor is it saying "serves you right"
Validating is saying "I hear there are difficulties with OM and that's hard for you, I have decided that's your business to resolve which I know you will"
It isn't saying " come home and I will always be here for you" nor "are you learning anything?"
Validating is saying " yes, your life is really hard, unless it affects the kids then it's best you work through in your usual methodical way please it keep me informed if you want to meet the kids elsewhere"
It isn't saying "poor WW what can I do to help?" Or "OM is a scumbag shall I get the boys to work him over?"
You most likely know this. And I wanted to be clear in my own thoughts.
V
Thank You for the clarification V. The way you worded it is much better than what I was doing. I don't think I did a terrible job, and I certainly didn't lash out at WW or OM, but I made myself easily available and had her believing we were in it together and I would help her. It gave her a temporary security blanket. Next time I need to be compassionate but be clear that it's her mess to figure out w/o any assistance from me. As I said before, I struggle knowing where to draw the line since one of her big complaints is that she felt I really didn't care about her and took her for granted. But I suppose listening and validating does tell her I care, but also makes her own the choices she has made.
WW just sends a TM and plans to take the boys bowling tonight but wants me to feed them dinner before they come over. She used to always provide meals on the nights she had them, but since I cut off the financial help, she pulls this every few days. Then she sent a 2nd TM saying "unless you want to send them with money to eat out tonight". This is quite inconvenient for me, as I do volunteering Monday nights and leave the house by 5:30pm, and she knows it. And I'm not giving them money to eat out every time she has them. I sent a single reply saying I would make sure the kids ate something before I left, and then would make dinner when I returned, around 8pm. If they were still hungry, they could come home and have dinner with me. Now, that may cut her time with them short, but if that's how she wants to be about the meals, then it's her loss. I'm sort of aggravated about the whole thing.
As I said before, I struggle knowing where to draw the line since one of her big complaints is that she felt I really didn't care about her and took her for granted.
Just so you'll know, in almost every WW story I've read, the W says what yours has said. She will say anything to make herself sound justified. She will say most anything to guilt you.
The WW's two favorite cards to play are the guilt and control.
You can learn from past mistakes. You can ponder on how you could have made her feel more loved. You can change yourself into a better man, and continue learning how you can be a better H. You can take note of her complaints (that she made
before she turned wayward), but you cannot try to prove her wrong by showing her what a perfect H you can be while she's in an A. Mainly b/c it puts you into pursuit mode, which is the
last thing you need to do with a WW. She may tell you to jump through hoops of fire.....but that doesn't mean it's what you should do!
We often get acquainted with a new poster by asking about the complaints and getting a feel of the stitch. IMO, whatever complaints your W may have voiced
after she made the choice to include a third person in the M, should not be addressed right now. I say this b/c it is not the
immediate problem. When she stops all contact with OM, is
remorseful and
willing to do whatever it takes to save the M, then you can show her what an improved H you are by implementing all those things you should have been doing up to the point she turned wayward. Does this sense to you? I'm not suggesting you become a terrible person or anything. Stay balanced here.
I have observed over the years that a LBH will wake up and want to go into overdrive, and is so eager to prove himself worthy of his W. But here's the catch: she's past that point now. Oh, she'll use complaints as her platform for leaving or even getting into the A......but in her heart she's done. She's not the least bit interested in you showing her how wonderful you can be now. The more you would try to show her how you don't take her for granted....the more turned off it would make her feel. The whole ballgame has changed, which means your playbook needs to change. You cannot play by her rules.
This does not have to mean there's no chance in reconciliation. I'm just telling you how it is at the moment. There is hope here. She may feel done, but that doesn't mean it's fact.
Instead of thinking of what you should be doing to stop her from going to OM, think of what you won't tolerate in your life. In general what is it you won't tolerate from other people. What about in your M? What goes against everything you believe is right, moral, valuable, religious, or the very core of what you are? Then, think about the things you absolutely cannot live without. (And don't say your W, b/c life
can continue without her.) When you know these things, then you'll know your personal boundaries.
That is your focus point. Not her, not the A or even the MR (at the moment), but rather your self respect and dignity as a man. The very things you stand for, and/or fight against being in your home/family/life.
Sandy, I sort of get your point, but now I think I'm confused about where to go from here. Are you saying that the usual DB techniques don't apply in this situation? I've been working on hard on GAL and identifying my part in the breakdown of the M, and then taking steps to correct my own issues. I still think that those are critical for me and my boys regardless.
But in terms of best way to interact with WW, what are you suggesting? In an effort to answer your questions, let me say the following are things that I will not tolerate from other people:
1) Dishonesty
2) Disrespect
3) Selfishness
4) Actions taken to hurt me or my children
I would say the same things apply to my M. Funny, as I look at that list, WW has done every one of those.
As far as things I cannot live without:
1) My children and their well-being
2) My integrity
3) Self respect
So given all of that, what's the best way to proceed? Continue with min contact about the kids, but shut WW down on any other topics? I had already committed to NOT helping her financially any more w/o a court order. It sounds like I basically need to cut her out of my life, outside of basic min interaction required for dealing with issues regarding the children? If I'm reading you wrong, please correct me. I'm really struggling knowing how to proceed. Are there any success stories here on the site where someone came out of a similar sitch and was able to restore the M? I would love to read them and maybe get some ideas.
Dwh
Can I give my view, no doubt Sandi will clarify.
In essence split the period into before p1 and after the A p2 started (the split is not before or after BD, that would be for a WAW, a wife who is not wayward and who isn't having an A, an A isn't the reason for a split its about unhappiness, although a WAW may later date)
If W in p1 had a complaint which is valid, for example you ignored her or didn't take her out to dinner from your anniversary, communication was poor, or you didn't brush your teeth.....
Address it yourself, for example someone who drinks too much gives that up, someone who puts work before family changes it. They do that for themselves by using DB, 180s etc.
If WW in p2 has a complaint the 100% rule applies, it is likely not valid. So validate and let WW meet the consequences of her actions. You are validating feelings not behaviours. So if WW for example brings OM to your home that is unreasonable if it breaches your boundaries. The list you describe are boundary breaches. More on boundaries later. Close WW down on OM as fast as you can. If after this all you hear is spew, and ranting and petulance then you can withdraw.
It's about keep WW like a friendly neighbour, the path home is smooth. Some describe the lighthouse strategy being a strong beacon for the wayward but holding your ground.
Some actions by another are so damaging there is little you can do, they are physical or emotionally abusive. So in essence Dwh you learn what your core boundaries are and whether another person has stepped over them. Boundaries are the areas that are really important to you which another breaches.
Al Turtle describes us as a fort with walls, the invading army may send arrows or troups over the walls using behaviours that are inappropriate. (Al is a psychologist for teenagers and I found his explanations very useful, it's google able he has an Internet presence) The behaviours of others which are so damaging require enormous strength to repel. Other actions are less damaging and cause little damage, you wouldn't get out the cannons for a small infringements but you need an army for large ones.
For success stories try Mozzas thread he keeps lists there and they are very encouraging. Remember DB is for you.
It is very early in your sitch to be despondent. The core here is if something doesn't work change it. You will only know after a couple of months with some strategies.
I like your response on the kids and the food issue, leaves WW responsible but the kids don't go hungry. I really like it.
V
Are you saying that the usual DB techniques don't apply in this situation? I've been working on hard on GAL and identifying my part in the breakdown of the M, and then taking steps to correct my own issues. I still think that those are critical for me and my boys regardless.
That depends on what you refer to as the "usual DB techniques". MWD tells us to do what works. I am simply trying to inform you of what does and does not work in a stitch with a WW.
By all means, please GAL......big time! And yes, correcting any personal issues you may have, b/c that is part of self improvement. However, if you see
correcting your issues as meaning any pursuing type of "work", then it will get you off track b/c it isn't the way to reconcile with a wayward.
But in terms of best way to interact with WW, what are you suggesting? In an effort to answer your questions, let me say the following are things that I will not tolerate from other people:
1) Dishonesty
2) Disrespect
3) Selfishness
4) Actions taken to hurt me or my children
I am suggesting you think about setting boundaries. And when you are thinking on these lines, what would be the consequences for anyone who did not honor these things you will not tolerate?
I would say the same things apply to my M. Funny, as I look at that list, WW has done every one of those.
As far as things I cannot live without:
1) My children and their well-being
2) My integrity
3) Self respect
These are right along the lines I had hoped you would say.
My intent is not to confuse you. I just can't get it all said in one post. So many men take a doormat approach, and you cannot do it with a WW. She has to see you standing tall and enforcing boundaries. And btw, when I say enforcing, I mean that you don't just talk but actually know what will be the consequences of breaking one of your boundaries. Remember, the only adult's actions you can control....are your own.
Think of yourself as proactive, and not of being in a helpless situation (not that you have, just saying). Proactive, however, does not mean you pursue a wayward wife. It does mean you take care of business, your children, yourself, your property & finances and keeping your priorities in order. It means to focus on you getting a life without her involvement. It means to not center your life around her, protect her or provide for her (in terms you normally think of a husband-wife relationship). She has chosen to remove herself from that umbrella that comes within a faithful/honest MR.
Well, I slept pretty well, and not feeling nearly as down this morning as I was yesterday. Been thinking about some of WW's complaints and realized that one of her big ones was she felt ignored and not loved. And I can see how she might have felt that way, even though it was never my intention. Given that, is going dark or dim the best way to handle my sitch? She's still with OM, so maybe that is the way to handle it, but I am worried that maybe it comes across as more of the same. Although I certainly don't want to enable her cake eating, as that's what I did for the first few weeks, trying to be her BFF, and I didn't feel it was helping me at all. She had everything she needed, with no motivation at all to want to patch things up with me romantically. Has anyone had a similar sitch and successfully navigated out of the storm?
dwh
Just read up on your sitch a bit .. and looks like a few of the bulbs that you need to go on are starting to flicker. To answer your question .... I had a W totally in love with OM, like you was a time she wanted to share with me their R in order for me to shed light on things for her ... ya know because I knew her so well .... not that I was her H.
I have navigated through that, I am not there yet but I can say the A is and has been over, she has showered me with ILY's all that. Is our M rock solid and all good ...no .. not yet ... its going to take alot of work.
Here is what I see in your sitch, V and Sandi are amazing LISTEN to them, go back and re-read what they are trying to tell you. You need a plan ... pulling the $$ was a good move.
#1 you need your respect back, not only from your WW ... but yourself. You have to look at that fella in the mirror and absolutely love him. I named this guy Cali 2.0 ... he was who rose out from the ashes of all this crap.
#2 As you are ... be the best father you can be ... regardless.
#3 As far as the going dark/dim issue with your sitch. I too got the "you neglected me card" ... all you can do is own your past mistakes with "I would do alot of things differently" card ... and leave it at that ... but you do not reward her wayward behaivior by sittin at the table begging for scraps ... GAL and do YOUR thing .. she fired you remember? Do not cake feed, let her hit rock bottom and come to grips with what a mistake she made, you are the prize ... a man only a fool would leave.
#4 as Sandi said ... Until there is remorse and the "I will do whatever it takes to fix this M" ... stay your course. Just like the front line in BraveHeart with the Calvary bearing down on them .. HOLD.
My sitch is going on about 2 years now .. but to be honest I am thankful ... because NOW I have a voice and a chance at a M where we BOTH can be happy in. For some time it was all about getting 'her' back .. then I realized .. the 'her' she was .. I did not want. Who would want a woman who had her sights on bolting out and leaving her family? So not only did I let her go .. I got to a point I opened the door for her and let her run .... when she tired out, she came back on MY terms ... not out of punishment .. but out of things I needed in the M all along.
One thing in all this .. Stasky said it and I have yet not seen it to be true .. the WW will continue to be waywardy until she feels she is losing the LBH ... so as long as you are on the porch waiting for her to come home she never will ... when you finally decide to live your life and do your thing ... actually DO IT rather than fake it ... when her actions no longer affect you and your life ... then you might see a change like I did.
She has to respect you as a man before anything will change.
Caliguy, amazing post. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really love hearing from other LBH who have been there, especially ones who have reconciled, or are in the process, such as yourself. Yes, I agree that V and Sandi are incredible and I appreciate their input more than I can express. I had actually read several posts from both before even creating an ID and putting my own story out there. When they started replying in my thread, it was almost like having a couple of rock stars take the time to say Hello.
I'm going to go back and re-read as you suggested, but I think I get the gist of the recent advice. Set my boundaries, no more Mr. Nice Guy to WW, respect myself, GAL, and be the best father, brother, son, friend I can be. And then settle in for the long road ahead. I'm only around 4 months out, although it feels like years at times, and realize I'm still very early in the process. I also realize that there are no guarantees, but I certainly want to give myself and my family the best chance possible, and I believe that will happen by following the fantastic advice in the DB books and this forum.
Thanks so much everyone who has taken the time to reply. I will continue to provide updates and seek advice. You people are incredible.
Journaling:
Went shopping for a new suit today for the big interview tomorrow. I had other suits but as part of the big DDay diet, I've lost around 50 pounds in 3 months so nothing fits well anymore. It's one of the things that WW would have loved, and I found myself wishing she was with me. But I took S18 and we actually had a pretty good time. And got to talk with a really cute sales girl. Heading out to run a couple of miles, then back home to make dinner for the kids. Haven't heard a word from WW all day, which I take as a generally good thing these days, although I still miss her often. But at least it means no drama.
50lbs?
Did you need to loose this weight, it's a lot in 3 months.
It's no wonder your clothes don't fit. That's biggest loser territory.....
In awe.
V
50lbs?
Did you need to loose this weight, it's a lot in 3 months.
It's no wonder your clothes don't fit. That's biggest loser territory.....
In awe.
V
No, that happened as part of the crippling depression after BD. I don't think I ate anything for about a week or two. Then slowly started regaining appetite but never got back to "normal". Plus, I took up running and am up to around 3 miles/day so that has helped. I'm happy about the loss and am down to lowest in around 20 years but wasn't the healthiest way to do it. Guess that's one of the few positives to this situation. Everyone tells me how great I'm looking. Only wish I felt half as good on the inside.
So I did my run at the Y, and as I was heading home, I passed by a local bar where all the Harley bikers hang out Tuesday night. I know my WW has been there a few times with OM (recall, he's a biker). No idea if she's there tonight but it definitely brought me down. I've wanted so badly to send her a text several times today. None of the kids have heard a word, and I really have no idea what she's doing or where she's at, which is unusual. Just needed to vent. I've got my boys here and I'm happy about that but just get lonely sometimes.
Did you need to lose weight? Do you need to lose more?
V
Did you need to lose weight? Do you need to lose more?
V
I wasn't really that heavy before. I'm 6'1" and was around 245 lb. Now down to around 195 lb. So I'm actually looking pretty slender these days.
DWH
Great job on the weight loss .. I dropped a bit early on too ... unfortunately some of it has made its way back on ... .pesky pounds I tell ya. If we could just figure out how to market the BD weight loss program we all could retire early I tell ya.
So .. those feelings you are having ... NORMAL. they will vary in cycles and intensity, just own em .. let them flood you ... take a look at your watch and set a time, say 10 minutes, allow yourself to think about them however you would like .. then when the timer goes off ... drop em and move on.
DWH
So .. those feelings you are having ... NORMAL. they will vary in cycles and intensity, just own em .. let them flood you ... take a look at your watch and set a time, say 10 minutes, allow yourself to think about them however you would like .. then when the timer goes off ... drop em and move on.
Thanks for the suggestion. It's a great idea, but don't think I'm quite there yet. Maybe in another 2 or 3 weeks. Being unemployed is sort of a mixed blessing in a sitch like this. It's nice that I can be home for my kids, and I don't have to worry about falling behind on work. But it gives you a LOT of time to sit and think. I had an interview today and it went very well, so optimistic that I may be back in the office soon. Will be good for me to get out, have things to keep my mind busy, and make some new friends.
The only potential drawback to getting a new job is that I know that's going to bring up the money discussion with WW again. She's in a holding pattern for now, but will be expecting help when I have regular income. I'm not sure of best way to handle it. I don't plan on giving her another dime w/o a court order but I need to explain it in a way that doesn't come across as a total A-hole. Open to suggestions.
I may end up having to file for D just to get that piece of it squared away so it's not a constant source of aggravation between us.
Splurge on some new clothes to show off that weight loss. It's a good incentive to keep the pounds off.
And sashay that cute slim body.
Cross the Fin issue if and when. It hasn't happened yet.
V
So my W just sends a text. First one in 3 days. And guess what it's about? Her exact words:
"I hate to bother u with this. But is there anything new on money situation? I'm struggling"
I already told her before I wasn't giving her any more help w/o a support order. It's like she chose to forget that conversation. Probably things we're buddies again after I helped her last week. Not sure of best way to reply, but I know she won't just let it go.
Dwh
Maybe I would just say " WW I can empathise I am struggling too"
V
Thanks V. I was thinking along those lines, so replied the following:
"Nothing new. I know it's hard. I'm struggling too."
So I'm hoping that buys me a few more weeks. But at some point soon I am going to have a new job, with regular income, and it's looking like substantially more than what I was previously making. If anyone has advice on best way to handle the financial discussion in the best DBing way possible, I'm all ears. Legally, I can play hard ball and refuse to give her a cent until she files for D, but that's not going to result in anything other than her rushing out ASAP to file and get that court order. I could try to come to some sort of arrangement and provide her support, like I was doing before, w/o a court order, but then I feel that won't help my case in terms of gaining her respect. And I don't see her willing to agree on the amount that I would be willing to give her, based on the reality of time she spends with kids.
In short, I don't see an easy way out. I'm looking at 3 choices:
1) Refuse to give WW any more help until she gets a court order, likely resulting in her filing for D as quickly as she can find an attorney.
2) Filing myself, knowing that it will result in a temp support order, but one that she will have to live with, and one likely to be far more reasonable in amount, based on my logs of time actually spend with children over past few months.
3) Try to work with her on an amount that we would both be happy with, while NOT filing for D at this time. I don't see this option being very likely. She wants way more than I am willing to provide, and I believe way more than she is legally entitled to.
If any of you experts out there want to chime in, I would love to get some feedback.
Please start a new thread this one is over a 100 posts.
She will try different techniques to get more money from you. She will be all friendly acting, throw screaming fits, threaten, bully, cry, flirt.....or whatever she thinks will make you buckle. So, take this as a warning.