Good morning, this is my second thread. If anyone remembers my drama I finally did receive a text from H this morning. He had texted me yesterday that he'd call after lunch and then of course no call or text. I was feeling extremely weak and emotional. My sister and I took our daughters to the Taylor Swift concert, it was a great show, but the whole time I just kept fighting the tears and my mind was going to some very dark places. This morning H texted me "how was the concert". Which is something, but why can't he pick up the phone? In a whole week its been one 3 or 4 word text a day. He claims he is trying to work on the marriage but he is SO disconnected and its been 5 months and I am losing hope. I haven't texted back yet. I guess I should text "good" and leave it at that.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2583105#Post2583105
Where can I find "success stories". I am feeling hopeless and I need some inspiration.
Photo -
Keep hangin in there. I know it's hard. But the only way to be happy is to BE happy. I hope you have watched the Amy Cuddy TED Talk - it's incredibly inspiring.
Anyway, there are links to success stories in Mozza's thread.
Anyway, there are links to success stories in Mozza's thread.
Use the resource link in your first thread, it has a link for Mozza's thread.
Did you do all the homework yet?
I would answer more enthusiastically - "It was great! We had such a good time!" The advantage with text is that you can sound chipper and cheerful even if you don't feel it.
Thank you, everyone for your support. I am doing really well with GAL. Did have a big slip up yesterday with STFU but it seems to have worked out ok. My mind was wandering a lot, because H hadn't called, and then when he finally did I broke down. He claims he is "trying" to work on the marriage, but doesn't speak to me. I told him that there is too much space and too much quiet in our marriage and I need communication. I said even if it is just to tell me that he needs a quiet day, or he needs more space, just communicate that to me and I will respect that. He always says we are not friends, but if we are to become friends we need to communicate. And whether we stay together or D we need to be friends enough to co-parent the kids.
He said he is taking the time while I am away with the kids to enjoy the quiet, to work on the house because that makes him feel like he is taking care of the family in his way, and he needs the quiet and space right now. I thanked him and told him that made me understand him better and where he is emotionally. And it really did make me feel better. Because my mind was racing, that maybe he is out with his gf, or packing up his stuff and moving out, or in a lawyers office, how am I supposed to know when he doesn't speak to me at all? Anyway, back to STFU for me, and learning how to be less emotional when I do speak. I never realized how emotional I actually am, but now that I am so obsessed with self improvement and my R I am seeing it. Have to work on that detachment. With the kids too, this sibling squabbling is killing me, and reacting to them is not helpful. I am learning, hope its not too late. But I had a GREAT weekend and my kids are having an amazing summer. Life is good, even when its not all good.
He claims he is "trying" to work on the marriage, but doesn't speak to me.
Mine said this exact same thing about a month ago, but it was after I confronted him about lying about ending A. He said he was working on it (not really), but my confrontation made it clear to him there was too big if a hurdle for us to get over. He is still here and still still saying he is not sure. He is doing absolutely zero except acting like I don't exist. Sigh....
BW05, I am sorry, isn't this the hardest thing? And I hate DB because I feel like I am playing games, but then again, what else can I do? Reacting to him isn't healthy for me and isn't solving the problem, so I am trying to stick to DB. Its like I have been thrown into an alternate reality. I am so grateful to have found this website, although I am sorry that so many of us are in this same situation.
I forgot to "tell" you all that I had a big success. H's friend, one of his oldest best friends, came out for the day with his kids and we spent the day together (without H)- my family, friends, kids, his friend, and his kids. We had a great time, just hanging out, hiking, went to an outdoor concert and drank sangria and let the kids run wild until past their bedtimes. It was relaxing and fun and I did not say one word to H's friend about H or our problems, just was myself and very happy that day. I was tempted to ask him for help or advice, but then I held back and just went into GAL mode and had fun. I also did that at the In laws house. I sure as heck am not giving anybody a reason to agree with H when he complains about how evil I am - want them all to tell him that I seem happy and normal. Which I am. Struggling with the happy part, but it is still there! I can still appreciate the good things in my life- my kids, friends, good times, etc, even though my heart is broken.
Another good day. Going home tomorrow and will be with H again. I am embarrassed to admit that I really miss him, although I will probably walk home to a robot. I am doing mostly pretty well with a few shocks of unbelievable pain that hit me at random times during the day. Mostly when I am tired. H has been working all week on the house, installed new flooring in my 9yr old sons room and built in closets in all 3 kids rooms. He has been busy in a good way, taking care of the kids in his way. That is good, right?
I walked in from vacation - after being in the car mostly traffic for 8.5 hours with 3 kids and a dog- and I am having a panic attack having to interact with H. He is acting normal, not like a husband, but like a casual friend. Of course I expected that but every time my heart breaks. I've been home 20 minutes and I am running out to drink wine with a friend. I need to calm down so I don't react emotionally. How am I going to get over this? How can I stop feeling heartbroken? OK, running out now to catch up with my friend while H catches up with the kids.
Stay strong photoka - don't get all emotional/needy/aggressive/angry due to wine!
Thanks Matt! I went out and had a couple of drinks with my friend- sat on her porch, and then when I was good and happy texted H and invited him over to have a drink with us. And my friends' H at that point. He came over (short walk) and was already pretty loaded, and we had a very happy sociable time. Walked home together and he held my hand!
I feel like he is trying. In a limited and "I am depressed and still not sure" way, but trying. I need to work on controlling my emotions. Not react, but act thoughtfully and with care. The wine actually relaxes me - I usually only have one glass - and I don't get drunk or lose control.
2 good days in a row! I *think* he is trying. He is out of town now for a few days so I can breathe a sigh of relief and hopefully he will still be trying when he gets back. Going to spend the weekend enjoying my kids and friends and my parents are coming in for a visit. I met with an IC this morning and she said I am doing really well and that I need to speak up more in MC.
Also I started a 180 for myself, I figured if I am making all these changes for H I might as well do one for me. I am always stressed out because I can't keep up with cleaning my kitchen- its always a mess and I am embarrassed when people come over. H doesn't care at all about that, but I do, so I started keeping up with it better. A little hard now that the kids are home for the summer, so I have them and their friends making messes all day, but it is looking better and I feel good about it.
Sounds like the dynamics are changing in your sitch! That's great news, keep doing what works!
RG I hope the dynamics are changing. I feel like they are, but I am scared to get my hopes up. H still hasn't said he loves me or hasn't admitted that he has any role at all in our problems. I am half way through the DR book. So far nothing new that I haven't picked up here, but I wish I read it months ago. Also having serious doubts about our MC, he gets great reviews and my IC even said she has heard great things about him, but his methods with me have been questionable and she (IC) was surprised when I told her what is going on in MC. I will catch you all up on it next week, trying not to spend too much mental energy on it right now, got to go pack my son for boy scout camp and plan a fun night for tonight.
Also have to clean the kitchen again, it seems to mess itself up every 10 minutes. I am having fun with the 180's, turning them into a game, its fun to challenge myself and see that I can do better. So far I did a 180 with the inlaws relationship, with socializing at parties (H said I was socially retarded and cling to him at parties, well now I mingle- and wasn't that a mean thing to say???), I look much better (H never complained but I will admit I let myself get frumpy before - now I look much better), and now cleaning the kitchen. Also not reacting emotionally. That is not a 180 yet, more like a 90, working my way up.
Once I get a job in the fall H had better watch out, I am going to be his dream woman and who knows if he will be able to measure up at that point! (OK, I can dream, I think I will be in love with him forever even if he doesn't change at all, even though he has plenty of his own faults- but I always just accepted him.)
I made it through another day. Had a little party last night, fire pit and friends over while kids played, it was really fun. H has no idea. I don't care if he knows or not, I did it for me and my kids. My parents are coming today for the weekend. When am I going to have time to obsess about H? I guess that is one of the advantages of GAL.
It sounds like you are getting a good place with or without your H. That's all you can ask for photoka. Keep on going!
Hi Photoka - really pleased to read your posts above. Reminded me of a post I read in the MLC area today, where someone said - 'I am the shizzle!!'
Driving the other day and thinking about things - I realised that I truly am the prize - not H - he isn't the prize....I am. It is nice when you can think that and believe it - even when it comes and goes.
It sounds like you are doing all the right things. And remember, what H thinks about it all isn't the main thing - these things are mainly for you!!
Hope you have a great weekend xx
Toots, that is funny, I will remind myself that I am the prize. And so are my kids, they don't deserve screaming and drunkenness in their home or being left alone while the parent who is supposed to be taking care of them goes out on a date with his gf. In a snowstorm. While I am at an emergency dr. appointment with my daughter. Hmmmm.....I guess I am angry about that one. I told my IC yesterday that I don't feel much anger and I am concerned that now that H is starting to check in more and I am feeling stronger that my anger will surface and that will scare H off. She said it might. So for now I have to manage my emotions. Which is better than having my emotions manage me. I never realized before how much that was the case.
But then again, I am not perfect and as much as I am committed to changing myself and restoring my marriage, the irony is that the more I change the more I realize that I didn't deserve this and this wasn't my fault and I was lovable and fine the way I was. So really I guess I am improving myself for myself, because either way I am coming out of this a different person and with a different marriage (or no marriage.) If I am going through all of this pain at least the one thing I can guarantee is that I will be a better person for it.
Matt, I am getting to a better place, not quite "good" yet, but better. I *think* he is coming around so that is probably why I am feeling better. I hope it isn't false hope. Either way, I am having a few good days so I will take it! Living in the moment.
Stay in the moment! Glad to hear you see improvement, just stay cautious and patient.
Thanks Teach, I am cautious, mostly from reading all the stories on here. But, on the other hand, my situation was never quite as extreme as most of the others, so that is giving me hope. For example, H has never moved out. Although he travels a lot for work, so maybe that gave him the space he was seeking. And he has been attending MC with me since BD although I don't know if that is actually working or making things worse. I read the DR book and skimmed DB, going back and reading it more carefully. I am hopeful. And exhausted. H called me today and that was good- much better than no contact or a 3 word text. And I was friendly and ended the conversation first. Yesterday too.
I signed up for voice lessons- I can not sing at ALL and I always wished I could carry a tune just good enough to sing along to the radio and not scare the children. And I learned how to do "beach hair" and I've been rocking the beach hair style and getting lots of compliments on that. Enjoying the self improvement. I think I am going to start some weight lifting next- would love to have muscles. My next husband will be a lucky man. Hopefully he will be the same as my current husband, but that's not in my control.
I am not obsessing. I am not obsessing. I am not obsessing.
I thought you all might appreciate this. I was on amazon and I realized that since H and I share our account, he can see my browsing history. Which is all DB and DR and other self help books. Tons of them. So I cleared my history and did a bunch of searches on my hobbies and interests- workout dvds, hair care products, photography books and lenses. Not sure if H even will notice, but I don't need to leave a reminder for him of how hard I am working at self improvement and therefore appear desperate, would rather he notice me pursuing my interests. And in the meantime I bought some hair styling products so that is fun. Sometimes this feels like playing games, but I will think of it as managing my image.
Ha! I just added a sex toy on the search just to get him wondering. I wonder if he will even notice.
I just realized that I can now laugh and make jokes about my marital problems.
I just realized that I can now laugh and make jokes about my marital problems.
Yes. I hit this point about a month ago. When W moved out and took the entire kitchen, it was hilarious trying to cook anything. Her parents were actually over with my parents for Fathers Day (without W) and it was just sad some of the things we had to do to prepare dinner. I'm not sure if you're familiar, but it's like living on the set of "Cutthroat Kitchen". Sometimes, all you can do is laugh about this stuff.
Ha! I just added a sex toy on the search just to get him wondering. I wonder if he will even notice.
I hope it was something INCREDIBLY unusual for your marriage. Whatever that might be as far as this area is concerned.......
Thanks Matt, laughing is better than crying. H came home at midnight and I was asleep. I woke up and ..... ummm....... pursued him. It worked out for both of us but then I couldn't fall back asleep and had anxiety all night long. I do better when he is traveling or we are both busy, when I am with him I just want him. That is the confusing part to me, he won't say he wants me or wants to be married, but he is still here and still going to counseling and so do I trust his actions or his words? He doesn't actually say much of anything.
OK, I have to stop myself and be reassured that he is taking small steps towards checking back in. I do see improvements probably every 2 weeks or so since the big turning point 2 months ago. I have to be patient and keep my emotions in check. Time is on my side, right?
I need some help wrapping my mind around MC. We haven't had an appointment in 3 weeks because of vacation. Things are getting better. I am GAL, doing 180's, taking better care of myself. Working on STFU. H is communicating more, calling, and doing more around the house. Still won't say he loves me, or that he has any role in our problems, still thinks I have destroyed his life (well I assume he still thinks this, he hasn't told me otherwise.) I still have no idea if we are going to work this out or not, all depends on H at this point.
So. MC is tomorrow. I do NOT trust this counselor. He gets great reviews online, and even my IC told me she has heard great things about him. But he seems to blame me for every thing and is not positive or forward moving. Every time I leave there I feel worse. H likes him and this is the only time we talk about our R, so I feel like we need to continue.
In our last session, counselor said he has seen hundreds of women in my position and I am doing better than most. He asked H if he thought so, and H seemed genuinely confused that I had anything to be coping with. Because of course, it is all about him. Then the counselor said something about the EA, and how I failed his test by giving H an ultimatum and controlling that situation, and said "it wasn't a REAL affair, it was a friendship, and you controlled him" ????? Said it wasn't outside of work and I told him, yes it was, he even left my kids home alone to go see her, texted her all night, etc. I believe we "got it" before it turned into a PA, but it was VERY real especially to H, he even admitted that before we started counseling. So here we are. I pretty much am over the EA (or maybe I am kidding myself???), I haven't brought it up in 2 months but the counselor does, and only to attack me and accuse me of being controlling. I don't really understand. Is he trying to get us to deal with this? Or does he really believe I am so controlling that I deserve to suffer through betrayal as a payback?
Actually I heard him tell H a few times to end it, so I know he doesn't truly believe that it was harmless. I don't want to talk about the EA. She already had enough attention, I want to focus on the marriage. I want to encourage H to check back in, I want to learn skills how to move forward, how to understand each other, etc., I don't want to hash out old problems, especially now that I see so much hope.
But H keeps saying I am controlling and so I feel like I need to go with the flow. His example was that I asked him to ask his dad to move his car when it was blocking our mailbox instead of directly asking his dad????? Also when his parents asked if they could take the boys on a cruise, I asked for the dates and location before I said yes. It pretty much boils down to he thinks I controlled his relationship with his parents. I do not believe that I have, but I can and have been backing off and letting him and them do their own thing without comment since BD.
So what do I say/do in counseling? I think we are at a good point now to start working on our marriage, but H could still be very easily scared away. Do I just go along with whatever the counselor says to show that I am cooperative and not controlling? The counselor said something about resolving our past conflicts and I said I don't think we can go back and resolve 25 years of conflicts, but we can resolve what is happening now and resolve things as they happen in the future, and he said not everyone can do that. H said he cannot, he has to go back and resolve the past. So do I sit there and rehash 25 years of conflicts just to go along with this? I am beyond frustrated and scared to death that I am going to mess this up.
I do NOT trust this counselor.
Photoka,
For me THIS would be an issue. I think you and H both need to absolutely be comfortable with your MC if it's going to have any real, solid impact.
I also think no matter how difficult it may be, you do need to deal with some of your past issues, given that those things are what have brought you here.
Since H seems to be feeling you have been controlling in your M, maybe you can turn this into a 180 of sorts? Something like "H, I'm not really comfortable with our current MC, do you have any thoughts or ideas about another MC we could try out?" Then, you've spoken your mind but also given H a chance to weigh in and make a decision for a change.
Thank you Jedi. I have been doing a 180- actually a few of them- very successfully. When the counselor asks H if he has noticed (I don't bring up the term 180 or DB, it is my "secret" but it does come up in counseling that I am responding to H's concerns) H will say "Yes, but we will see if she can keep it up..." or he will bring up another criticism instead.
I am wondering if the counselor is doing a "MC" version of DB. He told me in the beginning that H couldn't handle traditional MC and that I would have to do most of the work. He gets excellent reviews for dealing with men with anger issues. So I wonder if this is his technique- get H to feel comfortable with him while getting me to change. At some point it will have to balance out. Or maybe he is just really on H's side and thinks I deserve to be cheated on and yelled at? How do I know? Every time I leave there I feel worse. And for me, the worst part is that every time I leave there I know H goes and reports back to his parents that MC said I am controlling, or MC agreed he deserved his affair, etc. And then they tell me how terrible I am. So I feel like H, the MC, and the inlaws are all ganging up on me. At least EA isn't ganging up on me too anymore. At least I don't think so.
Has anyone heard of a counselor doing this? Is this a real technique or did I just find an angry incompetent counselor? I will update tonight after counseling. Maybe I should make an appointment to speak with him about his technique and where it is going? If he really has a plan and he thinks it will work I will go along with it. I told H that I have my doubts and maybe we should consider other options, H just said he likes him and didn't say anything else.
OK, I will update tonight. I will stay calm in counseling and speak up about my concerns and where this is going. And maybe start finding recommendations for other counselors.
I should also add for anyone following my drama, that my daughter has started to relapse again and I don't know what I am going to do if she gets out of control again. This is what caused H's original breakdown, and to be honest, I wasn't far behind him. Brought her to the dr today and yesterday and they changed her Rx starting today, she is now on Prozac. The other meds were not working and giving her heart palpitations. H has not asked about her appointment today and yesterday when I tried to tell him about her behavior over the weekend he got that panicky look and made a dismissive comment- don't remember what but something along the lines of "why are you telling me this". He cannot deal with her when she is losing it. (to be fair to him, it is hell, she gets agitated and can go on for hours at a time and lashes out at me and him.) So if she doesn't respond well to the prozac, there is a good chance that my marriage problems will be nothing compared to what comes next with her. This is so hard.
MC said H is in no position to do real work. I have to do all the work at this point. That is what I suspected. I didn't ask him about saying the EA was a test and not a real affair because H was there. The last few weeks I thought were a big improvement. H thinks they were a setback and he feels worse. This is so frustrating. His biggest problem with me now is that I show emotion. Yes, I am emotional. Working on it, I can tone it down and be less reactive. But I am never going to be non-emotional. But I will tone it down. I have been, I will do better.
I have never been so tempted to just quit as I am right now. But I won't because that would be an emotional reaction and not want I really want. I am so frustrated and hurt right now. H interprets EVERY single thing I do in the worst way possible. He is just clinging to his hurt so tightly and will not budge an inch. I need to work on validating too. Hard to do when H barely speaks a word.
Do you meditate at all photo? I've found that it's very helpful in emotional times. It helps center and ground you despite what's going on around you.
another vote for meditation. hang in there photo ! xo
Or maybe he is just really on H's side and thinks I deserve to be cheated on and yelled at? How do I know? Every time I leave there I feel worse. And for me, the worst part is that every time I leave there I know H goes and reports back to his parents that MC said I am controlling, or MC agreed he deserved his affair, etc. And then they tell me how terrible I am. So I feel like H, the MC, and the inlaws are all ganging up on me.
P,
This sounds terrible. No one, you included, deserves to be cheated on. Stop that line of thinking right now, it leads nowhere.
I really cannot say as I'm not this person, but this doesn't sound like a pro marriage / solution based MC to me. IMO, you should both leave MC feeling better, maybe even optimistic about the future of your M. I'm not saying it should be easy, but what you describe sounds totally one sided.
I still think you need to seek an alternative MC.
Thank you Pigpen, bttrfly and jedi. I don't meditate. I did yoga for years, but could never get the meditation part down- my mind is just all over the place. Maybe I will try today.
I agree about the MC. I do feel a little better about him after last night, but the hurt he caused me by saying H was justified in having the affair really was cruel.
H is working from home today and tried to initiate a conversation with me and I just can't bring myself to talk to him. I am going to be emotional and he will say I am freaking out. Instead of seeing that I am hurting more than I ever have in my whole life and having one ounce of sympathy, he will use it against me. So I am staying away from him until I feel in control. I
I am having a bad day. Just went out for a walk with a friend and my son, and now home again and trying not to react. I was so hopeful after the last few weeks, really trying and really working on myself. H wanted A, B and C, I did A, B and C, no ackowledgement of that but now he is really upset about D and E. I feel like it doesn't matter what I do, he just hates me. MC said that in love we give each other the benefit of the doubt, and put a positive spin on our interactions and H is not doing that. He is finding fault in everything I do. MC said I am ready to really listen to H and act with love so I have to keep doing that and H will eventually be ready. I know we are all on here because we want to save our marriages, but at what point does it become too painful? I am not there yet, but this is so hard.
P,
Hang in there. Only you can decide if and/or when this is too painful to continue.
Having said that, let's pretend for a minute that you decide today is that day. For argument sake, you file and finalize your D in 24 hours.
Once this is all over, D is final, does it actually change anything for you?
My guess is it will still be just as painful for you. You mention at the beginning of this post GAL is going well, but what exactly is that for you? I hear a lot of you doing things for H in this post above, and not a lot of you doing things for P.
I think you need to give some solid headspace to how you can begin to detach, and once you start to do this things will get easier, I promise.
Hardest night of my life. I believe H truly hates me. Please pray for me. Please pray for my children.
I will pray for you and your children.
Tomorrow is another day.
God Bless.
He is confused. Read my posts to Ralphy and Lynn80...it's a long road if you are willing to walk it
Sorry, the above comment was to another post in your thread. I hit the reply button and thought it was going to comment directly to that post!
As for MC, you need to have a counselor you are both comfortable with. Many MCs actually hurt the M as they allow one person to hear the information they needed to know they have the ok to leave. If you are afraid of being too emotional maybe you can leave your H a note asking him to interview MCs to find one you are both comfortable with.
Thank you for the prayers HeavyD.
Jedi, you are right. I "get" the concept of detaching but I haven't been successful at it. I need to work on that. I don't know how. I will not give up, but this is hard for me. There have been instances, every day even, where I do detach so I know it is possible, but then the emotion creeps back up. I need to work on this. I know you all know this is hard- any tips? I do not want to be controlled by my emotions, or even worse, by someone else's emotions.
If I got a D right now the pain would not change. Probably would be worse.
And as far as GAL- I went on a 10 day vacation without H, and had a great time. Have been going out frequently with friends. And I just started singing lessons which I love! But GAL without detachment is just really avoiding the situation. I need to detach.
Thank you.
Lovethehub, thank you. Your posts were what I needed. You gave me perspective and you are right. He is suffering and confused and I don't think he wants to end the M, but he doesn't want to continue feeling unloved and he doesn't trust me. Or himself to be honest. He wants to "be friends" and feels like he is not safe to be himself around me. His examples are a little stretching it, but those are his feelings and I need to remind myself that his words and actions right now are those of someone who I love who is hurting, and not a reason to defend myself or convince him he is wrong. I will look past his examples to the feeling behind them. This is a chance to be a safe person for him to be around, give him space, and work on myself in the meantime. I will probably reread your posts several times. Thank you.
About the MC. I told H my concern. He said its ok with him if I call the counselor without him and talk about my concerns, and then we can discuss other options if that is what I want.
I will answer my own question about detaching. At times, when H gets crazy and irrational, I have this overwhelming thought in my head to run away and give up on him, if he can believe xyz there is no hope because he is just so out of touch with reality. This has happened at least 1-2x per week since BD, and if I am honest, for the several months leading to BD. Usually he is ranting and emotional, and just spewing rage and hateful things at me. And then a little voice inside my head tells me to STFU and I do. And I validate and I reassure - usually apologize for something, say I understand this upsets you, I am sorry I didn't fully understand before how much this bothers you, I get it now, - that type of thing and it works. H calms down and our marriage is still intact.
The problem for me is the little things- when H seems calm or when my anxiety is building. Then I don't detach. But when he is losing it I am able to. So I need to remind myself that it is the same thing. And when it is a "little thing" and I am tempted to react, I need to remind myself that it will turn into a big thing if I do. He can't handle my emotions right now, he just can't. So I need to. If I can do it sometimes, I can do it more frequently. So just for today, I will detach. I can do it one day at a time.
Is my thinking on the right track? Maybe the more I do it the easier it will be.
And what do I say if I don't agree with him? For example, if he says "my mother is right, you are xyz". Do I validate by saying "It must be hard for you to be in the middle of a disagreement between your mother and your wife? It is stressful to feel like you are being asked to choose sides?" What could I say to validate him without saying "your mom is right, I am a terrible wife" and without criticizing his mother?
I haven't posted in a few days.
Doing well with most of DB except still too emotional. H is so withdrawn and after days of the silent treatment I just lose it. Although my "losing it" is not as emotional as I used to be, definitely more controlled, but still more emotional than H can handle. I need to be tougher. Made a lot of progress but still more to go.
Pretty sure H has a drinking problem. He is cruel to me when he drinks and after the last episode I could feel a very big shift in my emotions. I am losing respect for him. I feel disgusted by him. I NEVER thought I'd feel that way. That should help me detach, but its more of a withdrawal than detachment. I can't get into specifics in case he ever stumbles across this forum. But he has serious issues that have nothing to do with me. And there is nothing I can do to help him with this, actually anything I do will actually make it worse.
I will continue to work on myself. Continue to GAL. Continue to manage my emotions, and be the best partner I can be. Maybe it will be easier now that I am not feeling "in love" any more, I don't feel desperate any more, just sad for him. I still love him. I still want to make this work. I do not want to be divorced, do not want to break up my family, but you know what? It's not up to me. I will only focus on the things that are up to me.
You you doing Photoka?
I still love him. I still want to make this work. I do not want to be divorced, do not want to break up my family, but you know what? It's not up to me. I will only focus on the things that are up to me.
^^^^This sounds like good progress! It's going to take a lot more time, but once you get over the initial shock and loss, it does get easier with time to see that which you can control and that which you cannot.
How is detachment coming?
Thanks Jedi. Detachment is going very well. It is like a huge weight off my shoulders. Although the detachment "with love" part is not quite there, I am doing a little more avoidance than I probably should, but honestly I am busy with GAL and having fun. Going out a lot, and then when I am home I am really engaging with my children on a much deeper level and sustained level than I have in a while. I was always able- even on the darkest days- to plug into them for a few minutes at a time, but now I can give them an hour or longer attention, play a game, be silly, play at the pool, etc, and really just be with them without getting distracted by "what is H doing", checking my phone, etc. Going out with my friends more than I ever have in my life (and talking less and less about my problems ), taking singing lessons, going for walks, just keeping busy and actually enjoying it.
H seems to be noticing and checking in a little more, but very little. Last night he actually said "I feel like I don't know you anymore, you are a different person." I said "same person, just handling life in a healthier way." I am not doing it for him. It is amazing what one drunken night filled with extremely stupid comments did for my perspective. He needs to work this out - he is seriously messed up and it is NOT me, its him. I hope he figures it out.
I have a dilemma. Doing great with all aspects of DB but feeling disgusted with H. I am GAL, validating, detaching, 180's, but I just cannot keep a smile and pleasant attitude around him for more than 5 minutes or so before I need to leave the room because I can't fake it any more. I know I need to stay pleasant. How do I do that? Will it come with time?
It feels a LOT better than feeling desperate and in love, so its a better problem than I've had up until now, but still a problem.
I have also stopped pursuing completely. He is taking the smallest baby steps towards reaching out, but very small, plus then I am usually running out, because of you know, can't stand him. How are we ever going to put this marriage back together?
My therapist advised me to attend al-anon meetings. Which is probably a good idea. I think H is in the beginning of a drinking problem, not an alcoholic, but definitely has a problem. Meetings are wednesday nights. I just asked him if he was going to be around Weds night to take care of the kids while I go out. He said yes and asked where I was going. Do I tell him? I said a meeting my counselor recommended.
Part of me doesn't want to go because it has to do with him and his problem, now that I am GAL I'd rather spend that hour or so going out with friends and doing something fun for me. But, on the other hand, I am an avoider so maybe this would be good. I guess I could go to a meeting or two and see if it is helpful? Anybody been to one before? H was never really a drinker until late fall, since then he drinks nightly and has had several extremely intoxicated evenings during which he said the absolutely worst things to me you could imagine, and then claims to have forgotten the next day. The binge drinking has slowed down a lot, but there was a VERY bad night last week- the one that completely shut down my feelings for him.
Any advice? Should I tell him where I am going? Should I go at all?
I am doing well, getting better at validating but it is SO hard when I don't agree with him, but I have Sandi's cheat sheet on my phone so that helps. I am doing better.
Had a productive conversation with H yesterday about what I think is our biggest issue- his parents involvement. He actually brought it up. I told him that I have disengaged- that for the last 6 months, and in particular the last 3 since it took me a while to "get it right" I have taken myself out of the problem. That I still hear things and I am not taking the bait, it stops with me.
No matter what happens with our marriage, his parents will be at our children's graduations, weddings, special events, etc, and I do not want let a grey cloud over my head at every event in the future, and I hope that my "letting go" will prevent the cloud from being there for him and for the children. Sadly, the cloud has been there up until now for all events, holidays, memories, there was always some drama going on. Always. I am letting it go. All of it. It isn't worth it. I wish I did this 20 years ago. H acknowledged that there are problems with his mother.
I was shocked- in the last 6 months he keeps saying it is all me. He acknowledged that we need boundaries. again, shocked- for 25 years if I mention the word boundary he acts as though I said FU. He also asked if he needed to step in since I am still dealing with stuff. And I said no, I've got it, and I said that I don't think we are ready for that yet, that we should work on our marriage and he should work on his depression and then when we are stronger we can work with our counselor on these issues. He asked what boundaries I thought we needed (umm, hasn't he been listening for 25 years?) and I said lets put that on the back burner and take care of him and us and deal with the rest later. The only thing I will take a stand on right now is when it effects our children's safety. (for example the inlaws don't believe in seat belts in cars and this is an ongoing battle.)
He held my hand briefly yesterday, hugged me, and asked me to go out to dinner with him next weekend. Again, the conversation was initiated by him, very heavy talk, but I stayed non-emotional, expressed myself AND validated him. I ended it by saying "thank you for talking to me, I am glad that you felt like you could share your thoughts and feelings with me, thank you."
Photo,
It's interesting reading your updates above, in an odd way it sounds to me like you no longer really have any interest in reconciling at this point. You definitely seem to have detached, maybe actually have gone well past the point of the typical definition of detaching as discussed here.
Is it just the depression and recent drinking thing that has made you so over H, or is there more to this? I just re-skimmed your sitch but I dont see (or I missed it), but has H been to IC or even started to work on him at this point? I know you've mentioned it above, and I agree, that nothing else matters now other than for H to start to reflect and work on his own issues.
Regardless, you sound like you're in a great place emotionally right now, so congrats on that accomplishment!
Jedi, I do still want reconciliation. I still love H. But I have lost respect for him and gained respect for myself which changes my perspective. He is in IC. He is extremely stuck in "victim" mode and very dependent on his parents emotionally.
In the last 8-9 months I have experienced : my daughter had an emotional breakdown and was in a partial hospitalization program for 9 weeks, my husband had a depressive breakdown and first vented for months how he "hates" our daughter, then switched his hatred to me, he also told his parents he wished they were dead, my husband had an EA, my In laws have ganged up on me and vented hatred and some seriously twisted emotions on me, my husband started drinking heavily and raging at me. I have heard my husband, daughter, and now my 11 year old son express suicidal thoughts. I have spent countless hours listening to everybody, driving people to counseling, reading every self help book available, doing 180's, GAL, taking care of my kids, praying, reaching out in positive ways to friends, pretty much holding everyone together and taking care of myself and acting with love.
I am NOT saying I didn't contribute to the breakdown of our marriage- I am NOT saying H does not have any valid points- or that I handled the sitch with my IL's well, I am a flawed person and I am seriously and very humbly working on myself. I carry a lot of that on my shoulders and I do NOT let myself off the hook.
But. I am not a martyr to my marriage either. My daughter's mental health is slipping again (she is still way better than she was) and I can see clearly how when her mental state slips, my H's mental health slips even further. I can see clearly how when H gets off the phone with his father he withdraws from me. I can see clearly how when H drinks, he vents rage at me, mostly blames me for his mother's health issues and my daughter's health issues.
There is no forgiveness in his words or actions, only hurt, there is no willingness to work on himself, only blame. And meanwhile, my daughter is slipping again, my 11 year old son is depressed. I need to take care of my kids. I don't need a 46 year old kid, I have 3 actual children who need me. And I need some kind of life and some breathing room where I am not blamed for every freaking thing that has gone wrong in the world.
I have never stopped loving my H. I can't imagine that I ever will. But he has nothing to offer me right now. It is sad to see him struggle, it is sad to see him cope in unhealthy ways, and to withdraw and drink and smoke and isolate himself. But these are the choices he is making.
Last night we were invited to a friend's house for a campfire. H decided to stay home because he was tired. I went with my children, my daughter cuddled up to me on one side acting silly, my youngest son cuddled up to me on the other side, my other son running around the yard with my friend's children sharing tales from boy scout camp and we all spent close to 2 hours laughing and just being together. Silly kids jokes and just general small talk. Came home to H sitting on the sofa, he looked like he had been crying.
I do want to reconcile, but with who? This new depressed H who hates me? Or the old H who tbh was a good man but not really emotionally checked in even when things were going well? I am hoping for a new H in the future, who has kicked the depression, has taken himself out of the victim mentality, and who wants to spend time with me and the children. That is my hope but who knows if it will ever happen? He is in IC, is on antidepressants, has once again agreed to stop drinking, has broken up with OW. So maybe in time he will heal. But as for now I am detached.
I didn't realize how much I wrote! Thanks to anyone who has the patience to keep up with it. On a side note, the more I think about his EA, the more pathetic it is. They bonded over their "victim" status. They bonded over discussing how terrible their spouses are, and how disconnected they both are from their parents due to bad childhoods. They encouraged each other to reconnect with their parents, claimed it was "much more than an EA but a therapeutic partnership" (really, those are their words, not mine, therapeutic relationship over bottles of wine in fancy restaurants while lying to their spouses, yeah right). Well, I don't know how that is working out for her, but I sort of wish in a twisted way that I let her have him so she could be dealing with my IL's now. I am sure that would have lasted all of 5 minutes. And I'd love to see how she would relate to my OCD daughter. I really wish I let him have her, one day in reality would have busted that bubble.
I really am doing better emotionally but I am so sad over all of this. All of it, the EA is the least of it to tell the truth, just pushes my buttons but I know the issues with depression and my IL's are the bigger issues. Continuing to work on myself. I get it.
An old friend is back in town to visit. She just posted on Facebook how happy she is to get her favorite drink from her favorite restaurant. Its the place H and his EA used to go together. An innocent Facebook comment just brought back all the pain and turned my stomach. This will never go away, will it?
He's passed out on the sofa right now, since walking in the door at 5 pm, apparently too exhausted to barely even say hello.
OK, over it again. I felt like I was getting back on the rollercoaster again today and I didn't like it. I had a rough day but even so, my rough days are SO much better than they were even just a month ago. A world better than 3 months ago. I am doing better. Today there were a few emotional bumps in the road because I am human and this is a process. Back to my life. Which he is welcome to join if he ever decides to be my husband again. His choice.
Photoka,
Wow. Its hard for me to even begin to appreciate all that you have been through based on those paragraphs above, and I can imagine it was difficult to get that all out here in the open on this public stage.
I'm way too new here to have any real meaningful advice for you on what the best road to take is, but I just want to say that IMO you are doing exactly the right things for you and your kids right now and turning this crap situation into something you can hopefully look back on some day and see how strong it has made you.
You've been at this a bit longer than me, but I think you and I are at similar points right now on our DB path. Still love and care for our spouses, still open to a M 2.0 that could be great, but also see that their journey right now is one for them and them alone. So we accept and begin to move forward, making ourselves and our own lives the best we can, focusing on that which we can actually control.
It's hard to stand by and watch loved ones seemingly implode while simultaneously letting go, but it is the true path to healing.
Thanks Jedi, yes that is where I am, but constantly "reminding" myself because the emotions keep creeping back in. But I am doing well.
I was going to attend an al-anon meeting tonight at the suggestion of my IC, but I decided not to. I am not staying with him if he continues binge drinking and raging at me while drunk, and I am sick of thinking about our problems. I found a photography class to take tonight at that same time, something that is fun for me!
I am also a major avoider, so maybe this is part of my pattern of avoidance, but I just don't want to go down the alcoholic route- he isn't one yet, he is just at the beginning stages of a drinking problem, so instead of learning to cope with this I have decided to get out if it continues. And he knows it. So again, his choice. I will gladly tackle any issues we already have, if he chooses to start some new addictions he will be alone. We can move forward, we can stay the same for awhile, but I am not going backwards with him.
P,
I like the decision to take the photography class vs the al-anon! One, it's for you, so it'll be more rewarding I think. Two, like you said you dont care to deal with that newly forming issue, and I can't blame you. Let that be a problem for later on down the road if it's necessary.
Emotions creeping up are a bitch. 90-95% of the time I'm just fine with my life now, but every now and then I have a trigger to remind me that this still hurts somewhere deep down. I think time, and time alone, can fix this.
It may not mean a lot coming from a newbie like myself, but FWIW I think you're doing great.
Thank you Jedi, it does mean a lot.
I am feeling very strong, punctuated by moments of extreme self doubt and anxiety, and I am sure that is just a natural human reaction to being in this sitch. I am not going to be hard on myself. You are right about time fixing this.
Thank you, any advice or comments please keep them coming. I feel very different than most of the people on this board, mostly because my H is still here in the home and I really am starting to believe that he isn't going anywhere. But rather is going to stay here and ignore me and blame me and continue to withdraw until either I get fed up or I give up and just live with this sad situation. I of course am hoping for healing.
Photoka, I feel your pain. My H is still here too and it is hard, but at the same time it is probably better than living apart. I also sometimes get the sense that my H is trying to get me to file so he is not the bad guy, but other times I truly think he is trying to see way to stay M. I just try to DB my best and hope it is the later.
Hang in there!!
Thank you BT, I also sometimes feel like my H is just pushing for me to make a decision, I also feel that way in MC, like he is just going so that he can say "I tried everything, we even went to MC" .
Just a quick update to let you all know I am LOVING detachment. It took me a long time to get here but this is such a relief. And GAL too, I am having so much fun. More fun than before BD. I have friends and interests and plans and this is real, no longer "faking it" or using it as an escape from my problems, it has become real. I also completely stopped pursuing. I needed the detachment for that to work, detachment is my new best friend. Better than anti-anxiety meds. Better than wine. I am seeing things so much more clearly and I am feeling stronger and happy. I had a relapse the other day and it was so obvious to me how far I've come, and that I need to stay off that rollercoaster.
And, as a side note, really not even the point, but H is initiating conversations with me. And I say that is a side note because even a month ago that would have made me so ecstatic, now I am just curious and mildly hopeful that it is a good sign.
So happy for you photo....it's like emerging out of a dark tunnel into a bright field full of flowers, right?
Yes, Azzork, exactly! Although thoughts and doubts still creep up....but I can push them aside instead of caving in to them. This has been so hard. I am standing aside now and letting H figure out his issues.
I spoke too soon yesterday. Found out that the OW was viewing my Linkedin account and then noticed she is still "friends" with H even though he told me he took her off all of his social media 3 months ago. So I asked him and turns out they still talk at work. Even though he told me 3 months ago they didn't. I had a huge cry last night, almost as though I was back to BD. Big difference is that H held me and tried to comfort me and apologized profusely to me. So that is progress in our R but not progress for me personally. I was doing so much better, felt so strong, and now I feel pathetic.
I believe him that the Affair is over, but he has so little sensitivity for my feelings and such extremely poor boundaries that he just doesn't "get it"- you can't keep being casual friends after an EA. And you can't lie at all. He doesn't want things to be awkward, well he should have thought of that before he had the A. I am pulling myself together this morning, I will NOT let this set me back.
I hate myself right now, I feel like the weakest and most pathetic person. I was being so strong, I was feeling so good about myself, and then I get thrown off so easily? I wish I could just go back to bed and sleep for the next 6 months. The whole time I was crying I was thinking "I am projecting weakness, I am projecting lack of confidence, I am such a loser"- this is awful, I can't even experience normal human emotions.
And tonight we were supposed to go out on a "date" - the first one H initiated since before BD. Should I even go? I don't even know what is right anymore, I just want to stop hurting. I want my H back, I want him to want to be back, and I want to stop hurting.
Hi Photoka, I'm sorry to hear that. It's a setback, but you can move forward from it. I just wondered whether you have read After the Affair by Shirley Glass? It popped into my head reading your post above. There is some good content on boundaries with 'friends' outside the M, and also on healing after the A.
It doesn't sound as though your H is offering some of the fundamentals that are important for healing - NC, transparency, and it is understandable that you are upset. Perhaps this is an opportunity for you both to reclarify boundaries, bottom line stuff and move forward from there. Without reading back, are you guys in MC together?
Take care xx
You aren't weak. That reminder of betrayal by the person you have exposed your vulnerability to more than any other person hurts. We all steam along when thinking we are doing really well until our trigger gets pressed, then we sink down and realize we have more work to do.
You go on the date if you feel like going on the date. That's what should determine it for you.
You may want to write out a letter asking him for what you need from him to move past this affair and heal your M. Tell him that you have learned there are some things that make for healthier, quicker healing, which is something you know he probably wants. Those will require that he do some things in the short run that may be hard for him, but a little short run difficulty for faster happiness seems a good exchange. Lay out the things that are mentioned in DR & that Toots mentioned. Tell him that you will be glad to give him some of the reading (and assure him it is short) that will help him understand what the betrayed partner goes through and how both can speed and improve the healing process. The letter gives him something to read over a couple times and digest. It also catches his attention more than just another conversation.
I hope whether you go out on the date or not that you are feeling better soon.
Toots, I have not read that book. Actually I have read very little about affairs or healing because I have been putting it out of my mind and focusing on myself, 180's and GAL.
We are in MC and the MC seems to be pro-affair if that is believable. I think it is because my H is/was so checked out he was borderline suicidal and the MC didn't want us to deal with anything too heavy and just let H vent and me suffer. But I think it backfired and made H feel more justified in clinging to the OW and that really wasn't doing him any good, as she is pretty messed up herself. Things are slowly improving. But we have not dealt with the A and I think it is time. I am an excellent avoider, but it doesn't really work because it always ends up coming out somehow.
Thanks Asitis, sometimes it is hard to remember with DB that we are "allowed" to be human and not just DB machines. What bothered me the most last night was that I felt good that H was comforting me, and I felt like that was a sign of weakness. Like I am supposed to be emotionally detached all the time. I have been working SO hard on detachment and I was doing so well, and then to take some comfort from him just made me feel both comforted and weak.
I did tell him that he can't just make small talk when he sees OW to avoid an awkward situation, I told him that the awkward situation is a natural consequence of his having crossed a boundary, and it [censored] for him, but that's a result of the behavior he chose.
And I told him that by being friendly he is leading her on, which is probably why she is on my linked in page snooping on me, her mind is probably wandering. I probably shouldn't have told him that, now his will probably wander too. But if it is over he has to make it clear to her AND to me AND to himself. Or else it isn't over. And he did tell me 3 months ago that he blocked her from all social networking sites, so that is a direct lie. And also a testament to me that I haven't snooped in 3 months!
I think I will go on the date because to not go will feel like I am "punishing" him or holding a grudge. He did apologize and hold me, and actually listen to my pain last night, which was a first. Maybe that was just something that had to come out and will be a good thing.
Time will tell, I am doing better today. I blocked her from linked in and also my mother in law while I was at it. That was very satisfying.
Thank you for the supportive words.
OK, please don't slam me for asking this question, but.... the OW was on my linked in page. Does this mean 1- she just was curious and looked me up without realizing that I would know? or 2- she knew very well I would know and that would lead me to realizing that H is still her "friend" on linked in? Her job is technical, so she is very technology savvy. I swear I am not spending a lot of time on her, but I am very curious.
OK, back to my singing lessons, which BTW, are going very badly, I cannot carry a tune at all and my visions of GAL sitting around a campfire looking all sexy singing songs and strumming a guitar are quickly fading, I think I need a new GAL fantasy. Not giving up yet, but if you could hear me you'd want ear plugs.
OH, and just a reminder, H was supposed to have broken all contact and cleared her from all social media 3 months ago. He told me he did. 3 months ago.
Now your going to try to guess what goes on in the mind of OW? Good luck. She's probably just as interested in you as you are w/ her for obvious reasons. Don't waste your thoughts on it: it's a distraction & one that can get you coming up with all sorts of worrying fantasies.
You'll get clearer clues if H is still hanging on to that R soon enough.
Asitis, you are right. I will try not to go there.
And I did take your advice last night and wrote him a letter. Of course I got no response. I kept it short, basically I said "thank you for comforting me while I was distraught, I believe and accept your apology for having the A", and then I said "I am still struggling with the lies, coverup, and ongoing justifications and deception. I do believe you that it is over, however, the continuing cover up and poor boundaries are making it hard for me to move on. Continued friendly contact and social media connections are sending mixed messages to me, to OW, and to your self. Please consider setting clear boundaries such as no contact. And please be honest with me about your interactions with OW.
Of course not direct quotes, but I kept it short and to the point and reasonable because I am sure it will be read to father-in-law, IC, and possibly OW depending on how much he really is still speaking with her.
I have been reading other people's stories and I want to let you all know that it really helps put things in perspective.
I have a very important point to make in MC tonight and I realize that my biggest challenge is to remain emotionally calm while making my point. My H has been lying to me about the OW. I do believe the A is over, however he has not cut off contact and is justifying his behavior. I think if I can maintain a very calm composure and express myself well I can salvage this setback.
I need for H and for the MC to "get me" on this. First, I need to get very clear with myself what it is that my point is without getting off track.
1- I need complete honesty about the OW. I do not want to fight to stay in an open marriage.
2- I do not want to hear excuses about the OW. I don't care if its awkward to ignore her, or he "forgot" to block her online, or "they just ran into each other." If it is over it should be OVER. If it isn't over, then tell me (back to point #1)
3- I am no longer pursuing him so he has to start pursuing me. I guess I can't really say that, can I? But he keeps saying things like, "I was working all day in the dining room, and you could have come in and done your work next to me"???? Ummm, he could have asked me to sit with him, or better yet, take a break and ask me to run out for a cup of coffee with him. Real coffee or the coffee from Lonelees post, I'd be ok with either one!
Since I stopped pursuing we speak maybe 2 sentences a day to each other.
So maybe I should stick with points 1 and 2 tonight? 3 is really more my DB strategy.
And now that I am writing this down, I am realizing that it is probably good that H thinks I should sit by him while he is working. True, that is not quality time, and true, he isn't communicating with me, but if he wants me near him that is a good thing, right?
Maybe this week I will just sit in the room with him for a few minutes at a time while he is working- maybe limit it to 20 minutes or so once or twice a day, just quiet time, and not think of it as pursuing.
Also, another biggie.
An old friend from college tracked me down the other night and has been emailing me. 5 emails in 24 hours. His first email was friendly, "hi how are you" a general update and reaching out type email. Things quickly progressed to "I really miss you" and "we will always have this connection". We were good friends. It is nice to hear from an old friend, but that is all it is to me.
I would normally tell H but we are only speaking about 2 sentences a day to each other so I don't want to waste it on this. I thought it would be flattering to have someone reach out to me like this, but honestly, it isn't, it just feels like a secret and like someone I am going to have to let down. Plus what do I tell H, I don't want to make it seem like "you had an EA so now I have one too" or like I am telling him "someone else wants me".
I am just going to make it go away. It was nice catching up, but we are caught up now.
Ironically, since BD I have had this little fantasy (honestly never more than a passing thought) of someone taking an interest in me, but now that it has happened it doesn't feel good at all! It just feels uncomfortable. Doesn't make me any more sympathetic to the whole EA thing, actually makes me less sympathetic, because it is pretty clear to me when someone crosses a boundary and sends up an immediate red flag to me, not a "wow, this is flattering, give me more " more of a "wow, this is inappropriate, what is wrong with this person?"
I agree on your realization about #3.
I think I would preface your comments with something like:
"I want to bring up something that is very important to me, and I want to be heard. What I am going to say is not an attack, so I don't want a defense or excuses. I just want to say what I feel needs to happen to move forward in this M, and I'm not prepared to move forward unless it does. It is non-negotiable for me. Again, I don't really care about defenses & excuses. That isn't important for me & I really don't care, so please just listen."
Now hit him with the knowing that there is still contact. Real healing cannot continue while this contact goes on. I am not prepared to attempt it until that is a reality.
Now, if it is not non-negotiable condition for going forward, don't make that an ultimatum that you won't enforce (but it sounds like you are at that point), but you've read the healing from infidelity chapter (hopefully recently again), so you know what it takes.
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck. Maybe have something after the MC to do to soothe and care of your self & the tension. Something wo/ the H. Friends, book a massage, etc.
Thank you as it is. So, if tonight goes badly and he chooses to maintain a R with the OW, its fair to "out" her to her husband and employer, and then I should immediately jump into bed with my old college friend (would have to be really drunk for that one) , is that what I hear you saying between the lines? Because that is what I am hearing.
LOL. I just want to point out here that 3 months ago I wouldn't have been able to joke about any of this!
I am not going to make this an ultimatum because I hate to admit but I already made that ultimatum in May and he is still talking to her. But ....and I know I sound really gullible here......I really don't think H "gets" it, I think this is more of a reflection this time around of his incredible stupidity with regards to relationships and an incredible lack of sensitivity to the issue. But, yes, there was a direct lie in there too, so maybe I am kidding myself. I want him to hear me out and accept that his actions or lack of actions have consequences and affect other people's lives. Right now the consequence is hurting me, and losing my respect and desire to work on the R. How do I say that though without sounding confrontative? I need to work on that one.
Usually after MC I grab a bottle of wine and either find a friend or I sit behind the tennis courts in my neighborhood and drink until I feel better.
Hello to you Photoka,
I am just reading the recent posts will read more when I have more time. I am looking forward to it.
My suggestion would be to not discuss some of your DB strategies with him in counseling session, however I do think that it is ok to be honest and say something to the affect of .. “had I known you wanted me to be in the other room with you I would have been happy to be there for a bit but I cannot read your mind to know what you might like or want me to do”. And from reading your post to you your thinking “ if I go in that room and sit by him that pursuing” … right… I play these games too! 
{Real coffee or the coffee from Lonelee’s post, I'd be ok with either one! …. Couldn't resist reposting this.. haha}
{And now that I am writing this down, I am realizing that it is probably good that H thinks I should sit by him while he is working. True, that is not quality time, and true, he isn't communicating with me, but if he wants me near him that is a good thing, right?}
Yes I think it is positive and we have to recognize the smallest of steps first. Especially if this a change from his past behavior.
Now let me ask would it have been a 180 for you to just go in that room and be next to him while he was working? Or feel more like pursuing to you?
Good luck to you.
Thanks Loneleee, sitting by him while he is working would feel like pursuing to me because for almost 20 years I have been telling him "I am sick of looking at the back of your head." Seriously, all he does is work, barely looks up from the computer, and now its the computer, the iPhone, iPad, whatever device. I cannot get this guy's attention. I would be fine sitting with him quietly if he sometimes took a break, or initiated a conversation or an activity. He will stay up until midnight working, works all weekend, just works all of the time.
If he does take a break he works on a house project, something like installing a floor or something big, not something I can easily get in on. If I do initiate "lets go to dinner" or "lets have coffee" he will usually agree and participate happily, but he will not initiate.
Which is what confuses me and hurts me the most about the OW, how the heck did that happen, did she do all of the pursuing and he just went along? I would prefer to believe that, because it hurts to much to think of the reverse.
I think I need to stop thinking of sitting with him in terms of pursuing, because he is asking me for that. I will think of it as giving him what he asked for. In small doses. And you are right, I am not a mind reader. But I am glad he wants my company, just doesn't want to actually speak to me or drink coffee with me. This is so hard.
Well that was torture. H hates me. He can put a really horrible spin on anything and everything I do or say. Every single thing. Apparently every single interaction we have is demeaning and diminishing and nasty to him. Things I remember as positive or neutral, he remembers as big blow ups and nasty remarks????? There is no benefit of the doubt, no kindness, no love at all in his words, he just purely hates me.
I say "I am having a hard time maintaining a positive attitude when he is still talking to OW and barely speaking with me" and that is responded to with "W said this and that and this and that in a nasty tone and she used wild hand gestures and did this 10 years ago and said this 4 years ago, and will never change." And I am sitting there with tears dripping down my face thinking "what the heck is he even talking about? this is so not reality?"
I just kept saying, I will try to look at it that way, I am sorry if I wasn't mindful of my tone, That must be hard for you, etc, etc, etc..... and then there is a silence and he launches into some other example of the wrongs I committed against him.
The counselor summed it up by saying H needs to check in and talk to me, and I need to take care of myself emotionally. So what does that mean? I thought I was taking care of myself emotionally. Is it wrong to want to connect with my H? I have so many friends, faith, a good relationship with my children, I keep busy, have hobbies, go to IC, what else can I be doing to take care of my own emotional needs?
At a certain point, I think "I do not love you any more" really does mean "I do not love you any more". H does not love me any more.
Sounds like he isn't taking MC seriously or ready for it yet. I'd strongly consider stopping the sessions. The therapist should have whacked him one in my opinion. In MC, the H needs to be forced to hear the W IMHO (Terence Real's Why Can't I Get Through to You? has an excellent discussion of this M dysfunction & how therapists need to approach the problem). As soon as you started, your H tuned out & started regurgitate spew mode.
I don't want to be too discouraging, but on what you've been saying about sitting w/ him while he works, his lack of communication, his maintaining contact despite his promise, and now this session, that you are not in piecing mode. I think it might be time for some stepping back and re-evaluating your approach when you come up for air after that miserable evening.
I'm sorry it went so poorly. I'll be pretty busy tomorrow, but I'll do my best to check back in and see how you are doing. Hang in there, you're in a much better place than you were, and you'll handle this!
So sorry to read this. I can't imagine how you are feeling right now.
Asitis hit on something though. It doesn't sound like your H is ready to work on things. Maybe by stepping back and recommitting to the DB process would be great for you. Recently W and I had a mini-blow up (I should have handled things differently), but by simply lovingly detaching and validating her emotions we seem to be back on track. I hope that's all it will take for you, but I think H still needs to work through his own nightmare before he can come to the table to work on the M.
Hurthus and asitis, you are both right, I need to back off and recommit to DB. We have a week off MC because I am going away with the kids to see my parents. I am so torn on the canceling MC because I feel like it is the only time we talk, although every single week it is torture. I will think on that.
In the meantime, H's spew seems to have a common theme that I am demeaning and critical in my talk, so I will do a 180 and speak to him as sweetly as possible.
The 2 sentences a day we exchange will be nice. Although I thought they were.
Going to IC today, babysitting for my friend's kids while she meets with her D lawyer, then singing lessons. Also trying to organize my closet and continuing the Harry Potter movie marathon with my boys. We are up to the 5th movie. Heading out tomorrow for a long weekend with my kids to see my parents.
I think friendly rather than sweet might be your 180. H is going to read sweet as a ploy. He'll still notice friendly, although I suspect he wants to read you as demeaning & critical.
I also suspect that you are asking him to do things (perhaps pull at least some of his weight around the house?), and these are things he doesn't want to do. While you should not back off on that if he is going to live there, you might think about if you nag him about it or not. If you do, then think of other ways to get the job done. Perhaps a list he can check off. Others may have creative ways.
You have tended to be too accommodating IMHO, so I actually think more boundaries and less actions (not words) that indicate you are tired of this and are moving in another direction might appropriate.
Cancelling the MC may be one of those steps. You've been trying to get him to talk more. He doesn't want to and punishes you when he does. That's not helping either of you. I suspect he is still feeling pursued through your wanting to talk and work on things through talk. Think about whether this is so.
Have a good time w/ all your activities & the weekend w/ the kids. When you get back from that see if you can think of some outside the home activities that are just for you and social in nature maybe.
Thanks Asitis. I will think about the MC. It is hard for me because it is the only time we really talk. And I think it is a good outlet for H right now, maybe not for me though. Definitely not for me.
The problem isn't nagging, or helping out around the house, H does a lot around the house and we do well with those types of discussions. It is more anything that is emotional or even just random small talk.
I think the problem, and this is getting deep here, goes back to how he was raised. He views any kind of disagreement as "being set up" or tricked and tends to think there is a hidden agenda. He half- communicates, will give very limited info and then if I ask for more or seem confused he will react as though I am criticizing. He runs from any emotion.
I also think he is lonely and doesn't know how to appropriately reach out and connect, so therefore he withdraws. He seems very happy when I pursue or initiate plans or contact.
I just got back from IC. My IC seems to think I am doing a good job with all of this, and with handling my emotional needs. She said if I didn't have occasional emotional outbursts she would be concerned that I was not in touch with the severity of the problems in my life- my kids and my H. She said she thinks I am strong and that I am holding it together very well. And of course a married person is going to have a strong emotional bond and need for connection with their S, it is not a weakness or something to work to sever.
She did say I should focus on my children and my own happiness and she suggested that H gets better treatment for his depression. I told her I was working on my communication skills- I might not be as pleasant as I think I am. She said that is good, but she thinks I am blaming myself for too much.
Me again. I am away with my children for a long weekend and completely distracted by my problems. Going out in a few minutes for a hike, and then dinner with family later- so maybe that will help.
I read Sandi's rules again and realized I need to fine tune my DB skills. I am doing well 90% of the time, maybe 95%, but not taking it all the way.
I've got to do a better job with putting a pleasant expression on my face and not taking the bait and reacting emotionally. Which mostly happens in counseling, because we are talking for no more than a minute or so at a time outside of counseling.
I also need to redefine what is pursuing vs. not pursuing. H wants me to sit with him while he works. I will, in small doses. I will show interest in his work, ask him what he is working on, a few follow up questions, sit quietly and check email and FB with him while he works, and then get up and do my own thing. Maybe give him 20 minutes a day of that "calm and interested" but not emotional attention. I won't look at it as pursuing because he asked me for this.
H interprets every single thing I say as negative, critical or emotional. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I am shocked at what he is perceiving to be those things. I am going to deal with this one in MC. I am going to bring it up instead of waiting on him to start listing all the ways I screwed up. I will say "I want to be more approachable, and I don't always see things the same way. Maybe you (MC) can help us work out a solution? Maybe a code word or something H can use to let me know if he starts to feel attacked? Maybe something I can say to help de-escalate ? " We are paying this MC a ton of $, he should have something useful to contribute to this, I would think this is a fairly common problem. Although maybe not to the extent that H is worked up about it.
I truly do want to be approachable and do not want to be a negative person.
The last thing bouncing around my head right now is texting vs calling. H texts me. I think texting is fine for "landed at the airport" or "picked up the kids" type conversations, but he will text me things like "How was your trip?" Now, I am VERY happy that he is texting me at all, a month ago I wasn't even getting texts, but I started responding with "good, call me if you'd like to talk about it" and he usually calls. The advantage to this is that I can take a deep breath before he calls and get a better PMA. And I always "end the conversation" first.
Those are my thoughts right now. Going out for a hike. Hoping to get all of this out of my head for a few hours. I was doing so well for about 2 weeks, but now I am obsessing too much again. I guess that is normal. And although I am backsliding, still nowhere near as bad as I was this time a month ago. So I will not beat myself up. Thanks to anyone who is reading this. Please let me know what you think- am I on the right track, am I just plain nuts, whatever.
Texting is perfectly normal in my opinion keeps it short and simple, sometimes men rather text than talk, he is showing you he cares by thinking about you and asking but doesn't want to hear an hour of how your day went. baby steps is good! youre on the right track it seems! =)
Thanks Asitis. I will think about the MC. It is hard for me because it is the only time we really talk. And I think it is a good outlet for H right now, maybe not for me though. Definitely not for me.
The problem isn't nagging, or helping out around the house, H does a lot around the house and we do well with those types of discussions. It is more anything that is emotional or even just random small talk.
I think the problem, and this is getting deep here, goes back to how he was raised. He views any kind of disagreement as "being set up" or tricked and tends to think there is a hidden agenda. He half- communicates, will give very limited info and then if I ask for more or seem confused he will react as though I am criticizing. He runs from any emotion.
I also think he is lonely and doesn't know how to appropriately reach out and connect, so therefore he withdraws. He seems very happy when I pursue or initiate plans or contact.
I just got back from IC. My IC seems to think I am doing a good job with all of this, and with handling my emotional needs. She said if I didn't have occasional emotional outbursts she would be concerned that I was not in touch with the severity of the problems in my life- my kids and my H. She said she thinks I am strong and that I am holding it together very well. And of course a married person is going to have a strong emotional bond and need for connection with their S, it is not a weakness or something to work to sever.
She did say I should focus on my children and my own happiness and she suggested that H gets better treatment for his depression. I told her I was working on my communication skills- I might not be as pleasant as I think I am. She said that is good, but she thinks I am blaming myself for too much.
Your IC is right that we'd be worried if you were able to do this stuff perfectly, and she is right that you are doing well and all our suggestions are just to help improve on your doing well.
I also agree w/ her that you are blaming yourself too much, and that H needs to go to an IC if he is not.
On the texting, I agree. To the "How was your trip?" I'd just reply "Great!". Don't tell him to call. You are focused on your life. If he wants to know more, he will initiate. Although he doesn't act like it often from what you've said, he is a big boy and knows how to use the phone.
Why would you want to sit w/ him while he works and show interest in something you really have no interest in? Do you really think that will help? Do you really think that is what he really wants? Or do you think he is throwing you a bone wo/ having to do anything to meet your needs? Will each of you focusing on your own lives but in close proximity really make you attractive or build any real bond?
I still think that if his heart isn't into investing in the M, then the MC should either be dropped or used as a neutral party to work out a healthier S arrangement between the two of you. He shows no interest in working on his own relationship problems & social dysfunction, just spew at you. It is not giving up on your M to stop MC. It is often the best thing you can do for your M.
Don't make this about him, but about you. I need some time & space to think about how I feel about all this, and I need a break from the MC while I do that. I don't feel like it is doing either of us any good, but I know it certainly doesn't feel like it is doing me any good.
And 90--95% is an A. Of course, look for opportunities to improve & fine tune, but start looking at the positives instead of being so quick to see yourself as falling short and blaming yourself (see my last response where I agree w/ your IC that you blame yourself too much). Show yourself some compassion. None of us is hitting 100%. None of us. And we all have had to go through a learning process, and those of us who haven't written the M off and started to move on are still in a learning process even if we seem to have our sh*t together. We all struggle. And it is a very difficult and stressful time. What would you say to yourself if you were a dear friend going through what you are going through w/ a very unpleasant H and doing the things you are doing? Would it be critical or supportive and nurturing. You are the person who cares most about your life and happiness, as you are the one living it. Be your best friend.
And, you are doing well. Really.
Thank you Asitis. H has always complained that I don't show any interest in his work. Always. TBH, I am not interested in his work. Add to that, he changes jobs every 2 years or so, he does a lot of project management and analytical stuff, so its pretty dry. But he has always said that he wanted me to take an interest in his work. I think I can honestly muster enough genuine interest to ask a few questions and get a "snapshot" of what he is doing at work. I do think more than that will really be insincere.
He has also always asked me to sit quietly with him while doing our own things. I never "got it" either. But this is not a new request.
What do other couples do? Are they interested in each other's jobs? When I was working pre-kids I don't really remember H taking much of an interest in my job, but it wasn't an issue for me.
He did text tonight, said he had a good day out fishing and "Hope you are having a good day." I responded, "glad to hear you had a good trip. Tell A and B I said hello" (mutual friends) and that is all.
Thank you for your kind words of support. I feel like I am doing well overall, or "faking" doing well most of the time, but I lose perspective and feel like I am failing because those are the moments H focuses on. And I am still just so sad a lot of the time. Not depressed and crying, but just sad. This is so hard.
And my son is not doing well, he just cries all the time. He interprets EVERY thing as an insult and I am wondering if he is taking after my H with extreme hypersensitivity. Either that or I really am the biggest jerk and I just insult people carelessly with my every word. I *know* it isn't me, but this is so hard.
thank you ILYNOT . I hope you are right. A month ago I went away for a week and he only texted me maybe 3 or 4 times the whole week, and each text was 3-4 words. This trip he is at least sending friendly texts. So that is progress. If only he didn't still hate me so much.
Hate, just like love, is a feeling that needs to be fed in order to survive. As long as you don't give him reasons to keep hating you, it will become too difficult for him to keep on doing it.
The lack of reciprocation in interest is part of a pattern here. This is his problem, not your problem. You seem to have a fairly well-developed sense of social attunement, and would never think to make such a narcissistic and arrogant request. There is a deep insecurity that he is masking from the way you describe it.
There is no "most couples." A lot of couples in an older generation (older than us) had an arrangement where the worlds of the spouses was almost wholely separate: almost no mutual interests. There were layers of mutual co-dependence & obligation that maintained the often dry relationship (although I've known some loving couples who had this arrangement). From about our generations down, there is an expectation that there will be something more mutual in most couple's relationship. Mutual interests, especially. There will also be separate interests, but something is usually shared that the couple bond over. It might be interests in an activity or a viewpoint/worldview, for instance. Not all couples do, and not all couples sustain that mutual interest.
So, what do you two have in common that you take an interest in. Your S (when your H pulls his head out of his a** to restore an interest there). But what else? It can't be something like his work unless you truly share his work.
What else I see is that he has a real need for you to appreciate, respect, and even look up to him. Part of this is almost certainly a deeper insecurity masked in gradiosity, but part of it (again I suspect) has to do w/ his love language. He likes to be appreciated and respected. When he doesn't get this he feels unloved & he likely engages in reactive habits to protect himself from the pain of that insecurity. This is likely a big part of his complaints about how you treat him.
So, what can you do? First, start looking at what drew him to you in the first place. I bet you admired him in some way that came through? I bet you asked him his opinion on a wide range of things?
I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you start bringing some of that to your everyday interaction it would help. If you say, we need to do X? Instead say, this seems to be a problem, what do you think we should do? That kind of thing. You are showing him that you will take his ideas seriously out of respect. If you already do this, then we'll have to explore some other avenues.
On your S. Consider some therapy with someone who specializes in adolescents. This is traumatic for him, and he could do with some extra help from someone not directly involved in the upheaval of his family life.
Other than that, play with him. Can you figure out a way to be playful with him. You'll find that even at his age, he will start to feel more secure and open up and work through his problems more when he feels that kind of loving bond that comes through play.
And, it's time to start a new thread.
Hang in there. You aren't just faking it. It just is really tough, and your H is really making life miserable for a lot of people - himself included.
Please start a new thread.