Impending lock on thread. Thanks for the heads-up Cadet
Old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD
For continuity, from Starsky:
I can't tell you what to do, NH -- none of us can. But those two things ALONE would be a dealbreaker for me. For most of us, I would imagine.
You're worth more than all of this. Much more. I pray you can see that one day soon.
Thanks, Starsky. I see it but she manages to stop me cold. I don't know why I still fall for it. It's just like I have this mental block there
NH .. just read up on the tail end of your sitch a little bit. Seen Wonka suggested my thread .. and yeah you are right .. its a touch massive but I think I see where you are ... a little different but some things I can relate to and maybe tell you what I did and see if you can somehow use that to get across this bridge you have come up to at the moment. Keep in mind I have not followed all your sitch so like everything here, we take what we can and use what we feel would apply to our own situation.
From your last therad:
Self esteem is a huge issue. A big part of her spew is this idea that she's too old to meet anyone else, that the best part of her life has passed her by, that she's been cursed with an unhealthy romantic life...the first two men she slept with ended up being gay, the wall between us for 12 of our 20 years, her married OM.
As I read .. might be a bit of MLC going on here ... 43 is not old but I see my W with the same struggle just heard "OMG I'll be 50 in 7 years when did THIS happen??" She has that panic that she missed out, and the anger is directed at you for you did not meet the 'expectations' she had dreamed up when she was a little girl thinking about the fairytale marriage ... none of us lived up to this I assure you.
I made mistakes with her, my parents have this inexplicable animosity towards her, her OM decided to stick with his own wife of 16 years instead of upending it all for her...and she somehow thinks it's about her worth. She never used to be like this. One of the things I loved about her was that she was her own person and nobody's victim.
Again ... my W's OM "Wants nothing to do with me" ... leaves them hanging ... in a way no closure, she did not end the A because she wanted her M, and as you said .. in a snap of the finger she would run back to OM.
I recently read it takes 100 days for the brain to be without stimuli from an addiction to not have that craving ... thats a long time .. I do think you need to place some serious boundaries here and now before you can go forward. Talking NC, full transparency ... something for you to think about here as in these moments I do line myself with Starsky and his approach.
I knew she was still stuck on OM, but I also saw signs that the fog was lifting. She intellectually knows that he's bad news. She knows that she could never fully trust him because of his history of infidelity (she was OW #3), but she's angry because her feelings haven't followed. Despite all that, if he called her tomorrow, told her he was leaving his wife and wanted her, she'd be gone, even though she knows what a piece of work he is. She admitted to me the other night that on his last visit he had asked her out for drinks the next time he's in town (which is probably September). She didn't say yes, but she hasn't said no yet either. This was after three other visits where no deep conversation took place. Mind games. Why do I put up with this crap?
Yeah ... all that ^^^^ not acceptable. You are still #2, your M is not a priority.
Its good you are grounded enough to realize she will have a mourning period ... but these little touch base type events ... ummmm, no. My W at the end of the A wanted/needed closure too, this came in the form of her and OMW talking, She talked to me about this, my approach was if she felt the need to let OMW know all and leave it at that .. fine, but this would be the last contact of any sort with OM/OMW knowing I wanted her to focus on the M ... not OM as your W is doing.
There was a semi-positive thing to come out of the meltdown this weekend. She finally decided to unfriend him on Facebook and get him out of her phone. The catch is that she doesn't want to do it until she has a chance to talk to him face to face, get some questions answered, and tell him to go away for good. If her marriage is the priority she says it is, then why does she need any questions answered? Remove him from her devices, shoot him a "don't call me" message, and be done with it.
We're in MC, we have a lot to talk about in session tomorrow.
I would really push for a NC letter, I would also calmly ask W what she really needs answered? The A was wrong, at one point I told my W ... if that is the life you truly want, the door is there ... go.
Something else that has helped me and I think it might be what Wonka was alluding to was my approach with W. I explained to her some of the issues in the M that brought us to where we were, resulting in the A was the fact I was not clear in stating my needs. Making sure she understood a difference between needs and wants. Certain things I NEED out of my spouse, even mentioned she might not be able to meet these needs and that was ok, after going through all this I know what I need and spilled it out very plainly.
Seems your W is still playing a bit ... but I agree with Starsky, at this point you can not piece nor MC if OM is still in the picture. She does not respect you enough right now to see that .... otherwise there would have been a "hell no, I am committed to working on the M and attempting to repair the damage I have done" to the proposed meeting for drinks. You need to stand up here, W may throw a fit and pout .. thats fine, but deep within her she will begin to respect you standing up for yourself and not falling for her mind games.
I realize my Thread is a long one, I have come a long way here .. if there is anything I can help you with, advice or whatever shoot me a line over on mine and I can come in and tell you what I did in certain spots.
OM has been done and out of the picture for a bit over 3 months ... that 100 day thing is spot on, as much as she 'loved' him if he called her tonight I know she would tell dude to pound sand, then tell me exactly what happened.
At some point your W has to realize what she did, be remorseful and do everything she can to work on your M .... the no answer to drinks is as good as a yes from where I would stand and I would tell my W how I felt right there.
Thanks CaliGuy, I've been on the road a lot this week, but I'll try and dig into your thread further.
Maybe I'm too close to the situation, but she's such a moving target. I agree that the drinks thing (if it happens) is unacceptable. I've drawn that line many times; she's the kind of person that will dig in her heels and do the opposite if she feels controlled.
On our second trip to San Antonio this weekend, we were miraculously child-free so we had some time to talk. The R talk itself was mostly productive and calm. She's decided that she's "broken" because she can't feel about me like she should; so she's focusing solely on herself and getting healthy, essentially "back-burnering" both me and OM.
On one hand I applaud her decision; our relationship can't be healthy unless we're both healthy. She's carrying around a lot of anger and mixed-up emotions, and she needs to sort them out. The good news is that our MC suggested that she start some IC. That's a fantastic idea IMHO, and my W is enthusiastic.
On the other hand, I don't know what back-burnering me really means. I'm willing to give her time to get things sorted out, but shouldn't we also be working on our relationship as well? I can see a period of us both focusing on our own healing as just another way to build walls between us. Of course, after last weekend it seems like the walls are still plenty high.
Because of all the anger she's carrying, she's going to start IC soon. Our MC also has her writing an anger letter to me. She can write whatever she wants, no holds barred. It's not a letter I'll ever read. The idea is that she can start getting some of her anger out of her system, without pummeling me. She's writing it and it's bubbling up in a big way at me anyway. I was warned that would happen, so it is what it is.
Now she's starting to try and get promises out of me about financial settlements if we split. Her rhetoric is that she wants to be able to make clear decisions about staying with me or not without worrying about finances. I personally believe she's given up and is just trying to get some reassurances before she drops the bomb. She says that's not the case, but I don't believe her.
I value what she's contributed to our family and I'm willing to be fair about it...I don't want to get into petty games that only make the lawyers rich, but there's a limit. I'm no Rockefeller.
Part of me thinks this is spew; she does this when she gets angry and panicky, but I don't know. It feels different. She's stopped talking about her general fears of not being happy and started getting into the nuts and bolts of D.
What makes me mad the most is that she's trying to hold me responsible for her choosing a non-marketable major (before she met me) and working part-time all these years....like if I had been a better husband then her dream of marrying and never having to actually support herself would have panned out. I don't understand that because she's ever been lazy.
She's also angry at me because she'll have to work full time and it'll interfere with her ability to meet someone. Welcome to the real world, sweetheart. Every adult who dates has to work around their day job. She can date on her own time like the rest of humanity. The entitlement mentality coming out of her is staggering. I called her out on that BS.
How do you know when it's hopeless?
NH115,
I hope you are feeling more fearless now and calling her out on her BS statements by throwing out some truth darts. No more walking on egg shells and reclaim your spot as a H. Tell her that you are not willing to be #2 in the marriage and you have needs.
I would pull out the Cali needs speech to W. I believe I've posted it somewhere in your threads (probably most recent one).
I'm having a bad day, not sure why.
By those standards I actually had a pretty good night. I made it clear (if she was truly listening) that I was done playing second fiddle. If she wanted to do life without me, she knew where the door was. I managed to hit with some truth darts yesterday (I can tell when I do because it's the only time she doesn't have an immediate reply). When she started in with some of her predictable script I told her I was sick of her victim whining. She didn't up and walk out.
We have MC this afternoon and she is supposed to start IC soon. I don't know why this morning has been so hard. I'll go find that Cali speech.
Found robx's excellent post on detaching. Reading and re-reading it about 100 times.
I allowed myself to get complacent when things allegedly warmed up. Never again. Need to get back on the horse
Found robx's excellent post on detaching. Reading and re-reading it about 100 times.
I allowed myself to get complacent when things allegedly warmed up. Never again. Need to get back on the horse
He also had an amazing one concerning trust that I have gone back to for myself and stolen a few lines from while setting boundaries with my W.
how far back do those Robx posts go...for search purposes...or is there a link somewhere that I've read and forgotten about
Thanks!
It's so good I'll just re-post it. Credit to Robx
Robx on “What is DBing?”
Do you think the WAS will be attracted to someone who wouldn't move on with their life and would just stay and wait till they came back to them? Is that attractive? When you move on with your life, when you show them that you value your life just as much as you valued there life, it shows them you're a strong, confident person - those are attractive traits. When you stop holding on to them and let go and move on with your life and whatever that brings you including possibly dating new people, it shows the WAS that you are no longer a backup plan or option in their eyes, if you stay behind and wait for them to come back to you, they will always know that they can take their time coming back if they even want to come back, you give them the power of choice over your life, again not attractive. When you remove yourself as an option in their life, they don't have that choice anymore, you've taken back control of your life which is attractive because think about the qualities you're displaying with this action: confident, secure, ambitious, taking a leadership role in your life again, etc. You're not the backup plan anymore for them, the WAS is then faced with the reality that you aren't there waiting anymore, you're moving on with your life, and if their new relationship isn't working out and they were considering coming back, this generates fear of loss on their part and makes them reconsider their current actions.
That's DB'ing.
What isn't DB'ing?
Hanging in there,
writing long letters & emails,
text message "terrorism" (where you text them non stop),
begging, pleading, grovelling for love,
giving them books and articles and telling them they should feel different and they should love you,
telling them that they took marriage vows and they have to stick it out even if the marriage is horrible in their point of view,
moving out of the master bedroom,
moving out of the home to "give them space",
being sad and acting depressed,
etc. etc. etc.
None of these things is attractive,
none of these things is going to bring your WAS back home.
Is the method that I'm describing fool proof, NO.
Is it 100% successful, NO.
You show me any divorce busting method that is 100% successful all the time, it doesn't exist.
Some relationships can't be fixed for whatever reason, the other person may be at a point in their life where they really want something new & different regardless of how shortsighted that point of view may be.
But they moved on with their life.
They had an affair and found someone new.
And how did you respond when they did these things?
You started working on yourself to show them that you could change, on top of that maybe you started working out and buying new clothes to make yourself look more attractive physically. You started getting a life to show them that you're an attractive individual with options in your life. You did all these things when they moved on and chose to end the relationship. You did all these things because they moved on. They discovered they had options and when a person has options they become more attractive to other people. When a WAS leaves their marriage and starts dating other people, maybe having an affair with someone new and starts a new relationship all the while knowing that they have you in the background should they decide to ever come back, they know they have options. That makes them attractive to you because you were busting your butt trying to get them back and then trying different techniques to get their attention, etc.
In my opinion, why not try doing some of the same things the WAS does, it certainly works on you and every other LBS on these forums so there seems to be a common effect being displayed here. The person who leaves makes the decision to leave on their own. When you originally started seeing each other and dating, you BOTH chose to do that, you would BOTH choose to go out to restaurants, movies, parks, do activities together, etc. When you considered getting married, you BOTH chose to do this and planned out how it would happen. When a person leaves a marriage to pursue other people, dating, have an affair, etc. THEY are making the CHOICE on their own, they aren't making that choice with you. They are taking all the power in the relationship and choosing to do what they want and the LBS is left behind powerless. How do you change that dynamic? How do you reclaim some of the power in the relationship? How do you make a WAS reconsider their actions?
FKAF, for what it's worth, in my own situation,
things only turned around when I took back control of my life and took back the power in the relationship. I tried everything else. I moved out of the master bedroom and then the home because she asked me to because she wanted "space", I wrote letters, emails, shared my feelings, showed my wife how vulnerable I was, I begged her to go to counseling, I was needy, insecure, wussy like, bought gifts and generally jumped through every f!@#$%* hoop there was to show my wife that I loved her and wanted her back. When the WAS has that much control in a relationship, they will never be attracted to the LBS and they will never be motivated to come back. Marriage vows are just words and when a WAS has that thought process in place and "runs the show", the only thing you can do is to shake up their reality. In the end this is what is working in my situation and I'm the one now that has the hard time wanting her back after this whole process, that's the danger of detachment, I reclaimed my life back, my eyes are open now, and I'm not sure I want someone like that back in my life who would have done all these things to me, my wife now wants me to go to counseling, she wants to move back home, she talks to me everyday: in person, by text, by email, she does favors for me, she is sorry and is starting to show remorse for her actions, she wants me to forget the past and wants us to move on to a "great new" relationship for us and our family, she tells me that "people make mistakes", she tells me that she "held her family and friends in higher priority than her husband and that she knows now that is wrong".
She didn't see any of these issues as problems when she originally dropped the "bomb". She was content to live on planet "fruitopia" while she was in control and living a great life. When I hit rock bottom, reached my personal threshold of tolerance and that switch inside me finally flicked on and said "she's never going to change and she's hurting me and she knows it and still doesn't care, why am I still jumping through all these hoops to get her back?", that's when I moved back home and experienced "batshitcrazy" (and it was an experience), I slept in my bed in the master bedroom and packed all her things and told her that I wanted her to move out, instead of taking the custody scheduled she so generously gave me, I got lawyers involved and got shared joint custody, I became more active in my own life, I made her responsible for her own life (the term around here is "she can wear her big girl panties"), she was basically living an easy life on my dime, what would prompt her to change that if she was allowed to cake eat for as long as she wanted and I was feeding her that cake?
A free ride compliments of me and I realized that and I didn't want that anymore so I decided things would change.
But that's just me, that's where I am right now.
Life is really good and it's good because I know now that I'm responsible for living a great life and for a long time during the unhappy portion of our marriage I was miserable and taken for granted and I never took care of myself.
Now I have options, now I won't settle and my wife knows that. Yes I'm a bit of a hard a$$ as well as being a smart a$$, I'm working towards that middle ground for me. I'm a great dad and I make sure my kids have a great life, they didn't ask for this situation and although a part of me wants to give them their family back I can't just be married for the kids, I got married for me first and I want a great relationship and my wife is in personal counseling right now for herself and she's making real changes in her life and I just want to be sure that before I re-enter married life again if that's what I choose to do, it's for the right reasons and that a relationship will be loving, caring, fun, enjoyable and maintainable because regardless of what anyone says, marriage is hard work and I don't care if that doesn't sexy, that's reality. Married people get lazy with each other and take each other for granted, you have to consciously treat each other better, you have to make time for dating which means getting a sitter for the kids, you have to put excitement in the mix, you have to travel, you have to do things together but also make sure you maintain a personal individual life as well.
How's that for a verbose long winded post ;-)
I hope it helped a little.
Had a very interesting evening.
We had a late MC session yesterday. I had posted before about the intense anger my W is dealing with, and in turn dumping on, me. The last few days have been hell, with her alternating between spew, self-pity, tears, screaming, and rhetoric so predictable that I can almost handle both sides of the argument myself. She was writing her anger letter to me, as directed by our C, and her anger just continued to bubble up. During one of these meltdowns she admitted she was still in love with OM.
Last night things had deteriorated into a screaming match which ended when I left to go for a drive. I had been gone for a few minutes when she called me to see when or if I was coming home. I pulled up to find her sitting on the porch. She got in the car and we drove to a secluded spot so we could talk privately (I like to call it our “makeout spot”).
By then we had both cooled down and we were talking calmly. I finally just laid it out. I told her that her actions basically told me that I didn’t matter. Even after all these months and all that work I was still running a distant second place to OM. That's not good enough for me; I needed a two-way relationship; someone who was willing to give back and it was obvious she wasn’t. If that was the case, that was OK, but it meant I needed to move on. I told her we needed to get our finances figured out and I was going to find a new place to live ASAP.
She took it calmly enough. This wasn’t an angry discussion; ironically enough we were holding hands at the time.
Then a very strange thing happened.
As the words came out I started to feel this intense relief. I was sad, but I felt strangely lighter. To make it even more strange, a couple of minutes later my W said that she was feeling the tension lift; that she was strangely relaxed. I wasn’t sure how to take that; I guess I hoped she’d be more upset. I can’t tell if she was relieved that I finally made a decision for her, or if some emotional dam was breaking. We had some of the best conversation we have had in a long time. She asked me if we could live with this relaxed state for a while. I'm not sure what she means by that.
She did ask me, “what if we make a mistake?” “What if we figure out afterwards that we really miss each other?” I just told her that I she started to feel that way to give me a call. If I’m in the right place in life at that time then we can talk. I’m open to R of course, but it’s got to be real. She has to decide she has room for me in her life.
I didn't tell her these things to test her or manipulate her. I've really reached my breaking point. This cannot go on. It crossed my mind that maybe this will be the jolt she needs to wake her up. Maybe so...I hope so, but that wasn't my motivation.
No specifics about moving yet; we haven’t gotten that far in our discussion. I’ll keep posting
Interesting. I must say that you are a much tougher person than I am, hanging in all this time and working on you. I continue to pray for you and your situation and keep you in my positive thoughts and prayers. Hang in there, my friend, and take care of YOU!
I am so pleased for you.
Peace
V
NH - I just wanted to say that I think I understand this relief that you feel. When whats been bottled up for so long gets released, there is finally relief, not even necessarily action, just some relief - and she just may be feeling the same way.
She asked me if we could live with this relaxed state for a while. I'm not sure what she means by that.
To me, and I've seen this in my world, this may be saying, ok I understand, but I would sure like to keep the brakes on this move - let's ignore all of that for now and calm down - Oh hello elephant.
Hang in there NH - I am rooting for you - this may not been your initial goal, but you have to be good to yourself.
NH,
I think you should move out....but it's your call. It is time for W to put on her BGP and see what life truly looks like without you around. I don't think W has really hit rock bottom. There's some entitlement in the mix and you don't need to be around that chit.
NH - I just wanted to say that I think I understand this relief that you feel. When whats been bottled up for so long gets released, there is finally relief, not even necessarily action, just some relief - and she just may be feeling the same way.
She asked me if we could live with this relaxed state for a while. I'm not sure what she means by that.
To me, and I've seen this in my world, this may be saying, ok I understand, but I would sure like to keep the brakes on this move - let's ignore all of that for now and calm down - Oh hello elephant.
Hang in there NH - I am rooting for you - this may not been your initial goal, but you have to be good to yourself.
I think you're right U-turn. She has not directly mentioned me moving out since, but she was talking this morning all over again about how she wants to feel connected to me but can't, and doesn't know how. It wasn't angry spew, but it was the same BS script over and over again.
Thanks Dawn, always good to hear from you!
NH, I loved how you handled everything, and was also loving this new turn of events. Well done!
But then I got to this:
To make it even more strange, a couple of minutes later my W said that she was feeling the tension lift; that she was strangely relaxed. I wasn’t sure how to take that; I guess I hoped she’d be more upset. I can’t tell if she was relieved that I finally made a decision for her, or if some emotional dam was breaking. We had some of the best conversation we have had in a long time. She asked me if we could live with this relaxed state for a while. I'm not sure what she means by that.
My take on this is what she meant was "Oh good, NH's "expectations" pressure is off now; let's see if I can get him to go for 'limbo-on-steroids' here." Just keep repeating your "I just told her that I she started to feel that way to give me a call. If I’m in the right place in life at that time then we can talk. I’m open to R of course, but it’s got to be real. She has to decide she has room for me in her life." line. That was PERFECT.
You're entering a critical phase here. She's going to test you strongly now, I expect, to see if you are in "I'm really moving on" mode or if it's just some sort of tactic to get her back. This is where you need to watch closely for faux remorse, faux transparency, and trickle-truth. It's rare that a wayward will make a full, sincere remorseful stance when presented with what you just presented your wife. It's much more typical for them to first try to get you to go for something that's half-assed, and to try like hell to get their power equilibrium back.
Starsky
NH, I loved how you handled everything, and was also loving this new turn of events. Well done!
But then I got to this:
To make it even more strange, a couple of minutes later my W said that she was feeling the tension lift; that she was strangely relaxed. I wasn’t sure how to take that; I guess I hoped she’d be more upset. I can’t tell if she was relieved that I finally made a decision for her, or if some emotional dam was breaking. We had some of the best conversation we have had in a long time. She asked me if we could live with this relaxed state for a while. I'm not sure what she means by that.
My take on this is what she meant was "Oh good, NH's "expectations" pressure is off now; let's see if I can get him to go for 'limbo-on-steroids' here." Just keep repeating your "I just told her that I she started to feel that way to give me a call. If I’m in the right place in life at that time then we can talk. I’m open to R of course, but it’s got to be real. She has to decide she has room for me in her life." line. That was PERFECT.
You're entering a critical phase here. She's going to test you strongly now, I expect, to see if you are in "I'm really moving on" mode or if it's just some sort of tactic to get her back. This is where you need to watch closely for faux remorse, faux transparency, and trickle-truth. It's rare that a wayward will make a full, sincere remorseful stance when presented with what you just presented your wife. It's much more typical for them to first try to get you to go for something that's half-assed, and to try like hell to get their power equilibrium back.
Starsky
Starsky, I actually thought of you while we were having that conversation.
I'm of the mind that I need to move out ASAP. We both need to experience life without each other. She needs the dose of reality that living without me brings, and I need some perspective, without both of us caught up in constant tension and drama. During our Tuesday night talk I think I truly let go of my expectations. Trying to force an outcome is what I've been trying to do this whole time, no matter how much I may have thought I was detaching. When I let her go for real, I could bodily feel the tension lift. It was an amazing experience.
I still want to R, but I'm now of the mind that whatever happens with our marriage is what's supposed to happen.
Any pointers on what that testing might look like?
Could be several things. Initiating sex. Suddenly telling you everywhere she's been that day. MCing.
What does she KNOW your hot button is? What's her go-to move?
We're already doing the MC and she's starting IC later this month. She tells me regularly what's going on during the day. Sex would have to be it. Sex is the major missing ingredient in our relationship. Maybe not so much sex, but warmth...her initiating affection.
It's happening. I mentioned in MC again that I was planning to move out. The C didn't actually ask me all that much about it, which I found curious.
At lunch afterwards I started discussing specifics. I'm going to find some place to live, probably a roommate situation. We'll shoot for three months; time for both of us to experience life without the other, have a chance for some serious self-reflection, and work on ourselves. Hopefully we'll get some perspective out of this experience. I anticipate at the end of three months, we'll both really miss each other or we'll realize that we're better apart.
We'll continue to go to MC and have a date night once a week, and some family things, but other than that we're going to have separate lives for a while. I'm actually looking forward to it.
Frustrated.....
She tells me every day about our broken connection (and how many years we've been broken) her lack of sexual attraction, loneliness, etc. etc. She repeats the same tired self-pitying script every day. And when I suggest that's it's time for both of us to move on, so that we can both be happy and finally find partners that we can be happy with, she gets angry with me and tells me I'm giving up.
What in the hell does she want?
You know, all I want to do is kick my kids out of the nest successfully, make a lot of money, be in love with a good woman who loves me back, fly my a** off, have good friends, and travel. Good beer, good golf and good cigars would be nice too. I'm sick of all this BS. There's nothing I want to have in life that she would find objectionable. Why can't she just dump all this crap and come along for the ride?
Or if she just can't do it, let me go so I can get started on the rest of my life?
Am I asking too much?
She tells me every day about our broken connection (and how many years we've been broken) her lack of sexual attraction, loneliness, etc. etc. She repeats the same tired self-pitying script every day. And when I suggest that's it's time for both of us to move on, so that we can both be happy and finally find partners that we can be happy with, she gets angry with me and tells me I'm giving up.
What in the hell does she want?
Grasshoppah, I think the more important question is, "What do
you want?"
She tells me every day about our broken connection (and how many years we've been broken) her lack of sexual attraction, loneliness, etc. etc. She repeats the same tired self-pitying script every day. And when I suggest that's it's time for both of us to move on, so that we can both be happy and finally find partners that we can be happy with, she gets angry with me and tells me I'm giving up.
What in the hell does she want?
Grasshoppah, I think the more important question is, "What do
you want?"
Oh, I'm very clear on what I want. I just want her to s*** or get off the pot.
Oh, I'm very clear on what I want. I just want her to s*** or get off the pot.
Sorry, but that's ^^^ clear as MUD. It's still all about
her.
OK, how about this.
I'm very clear on what I want. She's welcome to come along for the ride.
Niiiiice.
I'm very clear on what I want. She's welcome to come along for the ride.
Then start on that path
today, and maybe she will. But make no mistake, the sooner the better.
I'm very clear on what I want. She's welcome to come along for the ride.
Then start on that path
today, and maybe she will. But make no mistake, the sooner the better.
Bingo. This ^^^.
I get the sense you're still waiting on her to define your future, NH. It's time to take your life back.
Starsky
I'm very clear on what I want. She's welcome to come along for the ride.
Then start on that path
today, and maybe she will. But make no mistake, the sooner the better.
Bingo. This ^^^.
I get the sense you're still waiting on her to define your future, NH. It's time to take your life back.
Starsky
Amen...
Amen...
And what is it that you truly
want here?? It is still not clear here.
Finally, I still think the best step is for you to move out and get a 1-year lease. Then again, I am not you.
Buddy, 3 months isn't going to change the M. It is only 90 days. Not enough time for the sinking realization to hit W that you're GONE.
I agree with the last few posts x2! I think you are still looking at your W and wondering if she will make up her mind so you can decide what to do. I think you need to let go of that and just do it. Decide on your path and take it. No reference to your W.
If she wants to catch up she will. And IMHO, she's more likely to want to if you are moving on with your life strongly and full of purpose. I think it may just be a case of losing the fear....the fear of, what if she really wants to X and I didn't see it....
Good luck xx
I think we're in a standoff situation. Each one of us is looking at the other, too afraid to make a mistake, secretly hoping the other one will make a decision for us.
She's even said point blank that she's afraid of screwing up
I agree with the last few posts x2! I think you are still looking at your W and wondering if she will make up her mind so you can decide what to do. I think you need to let go of that and just do it. Decide on your path and take it. No reference to your W.
If she wants to catch up she will. And IMHO, she's more likely to want to if you are moving on with your life strongly and full of purpose. I think it may just be a case of losing the fear....the fear of, what if she really wants to X and I didn't see it....
Good luck xx
I think you nailed my fear precisely. I keep thinking that if I just hang on a little longer, she's bound to wake up....etc, etc. I know that's not the case, but it's the fear I'm trying to overcome
I agree with the last few posts x2! I think you are still looking at your W and wondering if she will make up her mind so you can decide what to do. I think you need to let go of that and just do it. Decide on your path and take it. No reference to your W.
If she wants to catch up she will. And IMHO, she's more likely to want to if you are moving on with your life strongly and full of purpose. I think it may just be a case of losing the fear....the fear of, what if she really wants to X and I didn't see it....
Good luck xx
I think you nailed my fear precisely. I keep thinking that if I just hang on a little longer, she's bound to wake up....etc, etc. I know that's not the case, but it's the fear I'm trying to overcome
As with many things in DB .. its the opposite of what we think we need to do ... fact is she most likely will not wake up with you hanging on .. my W only woke when I completely let go.
I got it....finally!
It's clarity.
From the beginning of the sitch, W's mantra was that she was seeking clarity....clarity about our M, clarity about the direction of her life in general.
What better way to achieve clarity than to actually experience life post-marriage. Not to actually D (yet), but to see what that life really looks like....
That's the clarity I want. Am I really wanting to fight to save the marriage, or am I just afraid of change?
Isn't that what some of us have tried to beat over your head for months?
Yes, you are scared! You have been scared sh'tless since day one, and it continued to get worse. You are so scared to let go that you've actually caused more damage. So, I hope you do have clarity. I am not being sarcastic, I really do hope so.
I wish I could argue with you Sandi, but no, I can't.
I have operated out of fear; some days I've felt strong, but not always.
I'm ready
I wish I could argue with you Sandi, but no, I can't.
I have operated out of fear; some days I've felt strong, but not always.
I am so right there with you. I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing. I am also afraid of divorce for my kids. If we did 't have kids, things would be so much easier & simpler.
I am glad you're on your way to getting this stuff figured out. I'll be following along so maybe I can learn a thing or two!
I wish I could argue with you Sandi, but no, I can't.
I have operated out of fear; some days I've felt strong, but not always.
I am so right there with you. I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing. I am also afraid of divorce for my kids. If we did 't have kids, things would be so much easier & simpler.
I am glad you're on your way to getting this stuff figured out. I'll be following along so maybe I can learn a thing or two!
Hi HopeOK,
My kids are who I worry about too. Whatever life throws at me, I'll run with, but I do worry about them. How they handle this sitch will depend a lot on how she and I handle it.
I'm ready to move out. I was lying in bed this morning, thinking about how much disconnect I feel towards her. I'm the one that's starting to feel trapped.
My big problem is figuring out the finances. We're buried under medical bills right now. I know that sounds like an excuse, and it's not intended to be, but I can't be stupid about this. I'm looking for a roommate situation, so that will be a little cheaper than starting up in my own apartment right now.
I hope I can help, but my road has been a long and frustrating one...I have operated out of fear far too long instead of moving towards the life I want.
Just ask Starsky, Sandi, and Wonka
What you posted earlier struck a chord with me...
"You know, all I want to do is kick my kids out of the nest successfully, make a lot of money, be in love with a good woman who loves me back, fly my a** off, have good friends, and travel. Good beer, good golf and good cigars would be nice too."
Most of that life can happen regardless of what your W may be up to. And the good woman may end up being your W - or some other extremely lucky woman...
I say go for it!
What you posted earlier struck a chord with me...
"You know, all I want to do is kick my kids out of the nest successfully, make a lot of money, be in love with a good woman who loves me back, fly my a** off, have good friends, and travel. Good beer, good golf and good cigars would be nice too."
Most of that life can happen regardless of what your W may be up to. And the good woman may end up being your W - or some other extremely lucky woman...
I say go for it!
Thanks Toots!
You know, the last 10 months have triggered some soul-searching (boy, if that's not an understatement
). Someone advised me a long time ago to try writing a mission statement, but everything I wrote came out sounding so stilted and pompous.
I think I found my mission statement.
Now to execute....
I found a letter my wife wrote to OM today. She accidentally left it up on the computer, apparently from last night. The therapist had suggested she write a letter to me (that I would never read), getting out all the anger and bitterness onto paper, no holds barred. She also wrote one to OM, again without the intent to actually send it.
It wasn't exactly a love letter, but it wasn't exactly the letter of someone who is over their AP.
I'd rather not publish the whole thing here, but a couple of lines stood out....
"Why did you want to see me when you came back into town?"
"I can tell when a guy is just not that into me. If you were interested in ME, I would hear from you, you would want to know things about me" (mind you, in December she TOLD him to go back home and work on his marriage)
"Although I am a happy person, I am not happy in my marriage. My husband is a good man, and I love him, but I am not in love with him. A lot has happened throughout our marriage which has done immense damage to our connection. We're working on it, but I think too much has happened and too much time has gone by".
I wasn't particularly hurt by any of the things she said, because of my level of detachment, and the fact that she's said most of them to my face. She seems convinced that we can't make it, but every time I say that maybe it's time to move on, she gets mad and says I'm giving up.
Not sure why I posted that, other to vent, but feedback is always welcome.
I'm working on a concise way to explain my position on moving out in therapy next week. When I said I wanted to move out last week, the MC didn't ask me much about it, strangely enough. My basic position is this:
"I need space to figure out where my life is going and whether being married to W fits anymore."
This isn't about seeing if she misses me, or not being willing to be in an open relationship while she is still preoccupied with OM, this is about being able to point life in the direction I want it to go.
Am I close? Is there anything I should add?
NH, I have no knowledge of piecing or how that works.
I am sure you and your children deserve the best. I recollect your obsession with the scuzzy called OM. W is still entranced with this and you are not, this scuzzy is merely dalliance. Can W move out leaving you with your children? At present NH I think you are the more balanced parent. The dad who is standing.
All I can wish you is well and all my support and prayers. I have no wise words for you and I would that I have.
V
Thanks V, I appreciate that.
Some posters have in the past suggested that she move out. While she's still preoccupied with OM, she's not in an active A. Her parenting is not an issue to me. My Ds would be just fine with her. I'm the one who's wanting to move on at this point. I can't tell where she is, really.
I think insisting on her leaving the children with me in this case is overkill.
OK, thanks for explaining, I understand your position, as you know one of the first concerns of someone who has fostered as I did is the children. And dads can make equally great single parents as mums.
You have stood for your M for so long NH, as much as it seems you can.
My prayers are with you, as I know you will seek the answer with an open heart, that is whom I read, a caring loving H who is making hard choices.
V
NH,
I am going to post a quote from Starsky in Peter's thread over in Infidelity forum here as it applies to your sitch perfectly:
Wonka is right, Peter. The problem with "grand pronouncements" about "moving on" is that the very pronouncement itself indicates that you're NOT moving on. It comes across like you're trying to get some sort of reaction out of her, and trying to get her to stay.
I think it would be much better, considering just HOW far along you are in your sitch -- and considering you totally lived up to your end of the bargain in waiting for after your stepdaughter's wedding -- to merely just let her know you've got a place, and you're moving out on the 30th (or whatever). At MOST just say "I have decided that this isn't working for me anymore, and I need to get on with my life."
Let her pursue YOU for a change.
Starsky
I've bolded the section for you to pay attention to....and i think you can use it on your W when you decide to actually move out.
At MOST just say "I have decided that this isn't working for me anymore, and I need to get on with my life."
That's it in a nutshell, Wonka. I want to make my position clear without that "grand pronouncement".
Quick GAL update...can't believe I forgot this.
I've been searching for ways to expand my flight instructing business to build more streams of income, maybe through online content. My current business model really only allows me to engage one student at a time, which really limits my revenue potential. My sitch has really lit a fire under me to expand my business, both as a GAL activity and as a way to help my financial situation if we D.
I had lunch the other day with a friend from work who is building a successful online business writing resumes and doing job interview coaching. She gave me some fantastic things to think about and really helped me get unstuck. I've made more progress on my business in the last week than I have in 6 months.
I wish I could argue with you Sandi, but no, I can't.
I have operated out of fear; some days I've felt strong, but not always.
I am so right there with you. I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing. I am also afraid of divorce for my kids. If we did 't have kids, things would be so much easier & simpler.
I am glad you're on your way to getting this stuff figured out. I'll be following along so maybe I can learn a thing or two!
Hi HopeOK,
My kids are who I worry about too. Whatever life throws at me, I'll run with, but I do worry about them. How they handle this sitch will depend a lot on how she and I handle it.
I'm ready to move out. I was lying in bed this morning, thinking about how much disconnect I feel towards her. I'm the one that's starting to feel trapped.
My big problem is figuring out the finances. We're buried under medical bills right now. I know that sounds like an excuse, and it's not intended to be, but I can't be stupid about this. I'm looking for a roommate situation, so that will be a little cheaper than starting up in my own apartment right now.
I hope I can help, but my road has been a long and frustrating one...I have operated out of fear far too long instead of moving towards the life I want.
Just ask Starsky, Sandi, and Wonka
Yeah, I can see what you are saying. I had a moment this past week where I thought- why do I even want to remain in this marriage with all this stress and with all the things H has done? Of course I have vacillated on this but there does come a point where you start to wonder if it is better to split up.
HopeOK,
I think everyone hits a wall at some point. It has taken me a LONG time to get here...I'm sure I drove some of the vets here that were working with me to drink....In a way it's been hard because my W and I get along so well 95% of the time; it's not like she up and moved out, or continued in an active A.
Despite the seeming improvement a LOT is missing from our marriage that we both think is important. Before I was trying to get her to see that we still fit together. Now I'm trying to figure out if she fits with MY life. That's an important paradigm shift, and took a lot of my fear away.
I really like Wonka's suggestion (via Starsky). I wouldn't say a thing to W about moving out until you've signed a lease and know your move-in date.
I think you're doing the right thing. In fact, having read your sitch from the beginning, I'm sure of it.
Hey NH - I completely understand where you are - it is so tough. Always giving it one more day - never really wanting to give that up. But at some point there is nothing left to do but move on - move forward.
I am doing the same.
I just wanted to chime in and offer my support.
Hang in there buddy.
HopeOK,
I think everyone hits a wall at some point. It has taken me a LONG time to get here...I'm sure I drove some of the vets here that were working with me to drink....In a way it's been hard because my W and I get along so well 95% of the time; it's not like she up and moved out, or continued in an active A.
Despite the seeming improvement a LOT is missing from our marriage that we both think is important. Before I was trying to get her to see that we still fit together. Now I'm trying to figure out if she fits with MY life. That's an important paradigm shift, and took a lot of my fear away.
Yeah, that is tough. But I think having the new perspective will be helpful in figuring out what is best.
You know, NH, you really have grown. And, that sounds so stinking condescending, but I hope you take that as the compliment it was intended. You seem to be on the outside how I feel on the inside, but I don't have your confidence.
Now, you just have to focus on what's best for you. While our sitches are different, in that decisions were made for me (or perhaps, in spite of me), you have the ball firmly in your court moving forward.
I think it shows a great deal of maturity in your dealing with the situation when you explained to Vanilla a few comments back how you were not worried about leaving your daughters in your wife's care.
All of this sounds so pompous and like I think I'm a vet, which I SO am not and there are LOTS of those here who give great advice, but what it all boils down to is that you have made a change and it looks like a positive one, at least from my perspective and I'm so happy for you. I'm rooting and praying for you!
Hi Dawn!
I don't know if I've grown so much as hit a wall. My confidence wavers from time to time, but I know I'm on the right path here.
I don't know that I'm being forceful enough with her. I mentioned again about moving out and why, but she doesn't seem to want to talk about that all the way through. She was awful clingy last night when we went to bed, though. She did say that she could feel my love for her fading. It's not my love that fading, it's my willingness to be in an R that's not working that's fading. Love was never the question.
I don't worry about her and the Ds. Despite all that's gone on she's fundamentally a good person who is going through a crisis. She's always been a fantastic mom.
Always great to hear from you Dawn, I can tell that you're doing great!
At MOST just say "I have decided that this isn't working for me anymore, and I need to get on with my life."
That's it in a nutshell, Wonka. I want to make my position clear without that "grand pronouncement".
I don't know that I'm being forceful enough with her. I mentioned again about moving out and why, but she doesn't seem to want to talk about that all the way through.
NH,
I am going to post a quote from Starsky in Peter's thread over in Infidelity forum here as it applies to your sitch perfectly:
Wonka is right, Peter. The problem with "grand pronouncements" about "moving on" is that the very pronouncement itself indicates that you're NOT moving on. It comes across like you're trying to get some sort of reaction out of her, and trying to get her to stay.
I think it would be much better, considering just HOW far along you are in your sitch -- and considering you totally lived up to your end of the bargain in waiting for after your stepdaughter's wedding -- to merely just let her know you've got a place, and you're moving out on the 30th (or whatever). At MOST just say "I have decided that this isn't working for me anymore, and I need to get on with my life."
Let her pursue YOU for a change.
Starsky
I've bolded the section for you to pay attention to....and i think you can use it on your W when you decide to actually move out.
Re-posting for emphasis.
If you don't want to do this, NH, that's fine. But I wish you'd just say that, so maybe those of us who've been following you can discuss it with you. But you say you're done making these little speeches, and yet I still see you trying to get a reaction out of your wife, to "snap some sense into her" as it were.
As long as this is your tack, you're going to remain largely STUCK I'm afraid.
Starsky
I didn't think I was doing that, Starsky. I was making it clear to her (I thought) that things weren't working as-is and I was ready to move on. It wasn't a grand pronouncement, just something I mentioned in the course of a conversation.
What am I missing here?
^^^ I agree with Starsky.
At the risk of sounding abrasive (because maybe I misunderstood something in your post):
NH, you do a lot of self-reflection. And you've acknowledged your fear and how you've let it stand in your way.
Sounds like it is still there and calling the shots.
Everybody has been clear that your best bet is to make a decision and MOVE on it. You seemed ready to make your move just a few days ago then ... yawn ... you decide to talk the decision over with your W - again? (Because we all know how THAT has gone over since you landed here ...)
And then, you're back to mindreading your W's behavior. (And she sounds to me like a *Master* Manipulator, so attempting to read her behavior is like a dog chasing its tail ... and another dog's tail ... all at once.)
Am I missing something?
Because I'll be brutally honest: If I smell indecision and weakness, you can bet W can. And she's seeing that she can throw you a bone and you roll over. ***That is not*** what a woman truly wants in a man. With your W, it's happened so often that I swear she has learned exactly how to manipulate you into thinking the crumbs she's throwing you are stuffed turkeys. I think it's become so natural to her that she may not even realize she's doing it! But like a dog who learns to sit for a treat - even if his master is only pretending to hold one - she's trained you to sit and stay.
It's no wonder she keeps jerking your chain. (To be able to jerk your chain, she has to be holding you by one.)
Your W has no reason to change. She's going to continue keeping you right where you are until YOU decide it's time to move. And then - and only THEN - you TELL her what you're going to do. Don't wait for her opinion. Don't wait for her input. Don't discuss it with her.
Decide. And act.
I won't answer for Starsky. But what *I* think, NH, is this:
"A little less talk and a lot more action."
That's the point I was trying to get across up there ^^^, but I used a lot more words.
I won't answer for Starsky. But what *I* think, NH, is this:
"A little less talk and a lot more action."
Yep. The Elvis version, remix.
Starsky
OK, I have been slower than I planned. I'm trying to figure out the money. In other words, I can't figure out how to pay for a place to stay right now. It's only math, I will figure that out.
Should I move out right before OM shows up? He's coming the first week of August. Would I not just be sealing the deal for her at that point?
I wouldn't even consider OM in your plans NH. If you find yourself a place, move when it is ready for you and you can fit moving into your schedule.
What W and OM may or may not be doing needn't concern you whilst you're busy settling into your new pad...
JMHO...
NH,
Here are my thoughts.
OK, I have been slower than I planned. I'm trying to figure out the money. In other words, I can't figure out how to pay for a place to stay right now. It's only math, I will figure that out.
Should I move out right before OM shows up? He's coming the first week of August. Would I not just be sealing the deal for her at that point?
I would not move out right away. It just makes you look like a scaredy cat running away from the OM. F@ck that! I would stay put in the house.
Meanwhile, you can start exploring some living arrangement options. Looking at places takes time along with considerations for your kids...meaning access to your children and financial feasibility.
Even if it means you start saving up for a move in September for down payment and other practicalities.
Do not do anything hasty.
When you have all of those details lined up, then you can casually tell your W that this isn't working out for you and that you're moving out on XXXX date.
I wouldn't even consider OM in your plans NH. If you find yourself a place, move when it is ready for you and you can fit moving into your schedule.
What W and OM may or may not be doing needn't concern you whilst you're busy settling into your new pad...
JMHO...
As a practical matter, I don't think I'd be able to line up a place before he came to town anyway. It's in 2 weeks.
I'm looking in Craigslist for a roommate situation. That way I won't have all the startup costs associated with moving into an apartment and the monthly rent should be a little less. If it turns out that my M is going to officially end then I can start looking for more permanent digs.
Here's a thought....
If you live near a college/university, some professors want a house sitter while they are away for a research project or some sabbatical leave.
Good thought. It just so happens I live in a college town with a rather large university.
Sublet. Especially if you're in a college town.
Now she wants us to plan an international trip next summer. WTF?
Yep. Gotta keep ol' NH's plate spinning, just in case!
It's a placeholder, a future event to keep you in line.
In my opinion. I could be wrong, of course.
Starsky
NH, you may want to consider letting her know that given present circumstances, you're not interested in making long term travel plans.
I agree with Starsky x 2....
NH, you may want to consider letting her know that given present circumstances, you're not interested in making long term travel plans.
Perfect response.
NH, you may want to consider letting her know that given present circumstances, you're not interested in making long term travel plans.
I agree with Starsky x 2....
That was pretty much the response I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of "don't we have some big questions to settle before we plan any more trips?"
M issues aside, we're spinning our wheels financially as it is.
NH- Forgive me for jumping in, as I don't believe I have commented on your threads before, but instead of phrasing it as a question ("don't we have some big questions to settle before we plan any more trips?"), wouldn't it be more powerful to say "That doesn't work for me right now". That would be telling her what is acceptable to you, rather than asking her.
X2^^
The "Don't we have some big questions to settle" line is most definitely initiating a 'R' talk ... plus its applying pressure ... basically implying that you want a firm line in the sand commitment to the M in order to plan the trip. (This may be what you really want but SHE needs to give that gem up on her own with a "I'll do whatever it takes" line first.
I would opt for Raliced's line of "That doesn't work for me right now" as it comes from a place of strength and confidence.
I would agree. It does need to be a statement rather than a question.
And Raliced, jump in any time you want. The more the merrier.
I agree with all those before me....don't make anything a question. Tell her what works for you rather than asking her what works for you. Speaking from a woman's point of view, I want decisive and active, as most women do, not someone who looks to me for guidance. Sorry if that sounds harsh, dear NH, because you know I have to be super supportive of my fellow Arkie, but I was not sure how else to say it that didn't sound bad.
I think you are lucky to live where you do, in that places to live and roommate situations should be easier to come by. I wish you all the luck in the world moving forward. Do what is best for YOU and your daughters.
X2^^
The "Don't we have some big questions to settle" line is most definitely initiating a 'R' talk ... plus its applying pressure ... basically implying that you want a firm line in the sand commitment to the M in order to plan the trip. (This may be what you really want but SHE needs to give that gem up on her own with a "I'll do whatever it takes" line first.
I would opt for Raliced's line of "That doesn't work for me right now" as it comes from a place of strength and confidence.
x 3.
Dawn, don't worry. You've been nothing but supportive.
Yeah, it'll be a statement. I realized as soon as I wrote it that I shouldn't be asking her.
It's occurred to me that this may be a test, even an unconscious one.
She was talking about the trip and I told her that with things the way they are between us I didn't want to make any long-term travel plans. Her response was that we didn't have to book anything right away.
For her, she needs something to look forward to, and she hopes that a family trip would help us create happy memories and bind us together. All well and good, but I asked her what smaller things we would do in the meantime (this trip would be at least a year off) to rebuild our bond. Her answer was "I'm throwing that in your court".
Wrong answer.
It's not my responsibility to come up with things to make her happy, and to make her feel connected to me. We both screwed our marriage up, so it's up to both of us to take action to improve our lives, separately and together.
I have specific GAL things that I'm doing. To her credit she's starting to find some things too.
It still sounds to me like she expects me to do something that makes her happy and makes her fall back in love with me.
I can't for the life of me figure out where she really is. What am I missing here?
NH
My W had some similar comments/statements .... like she was looking for me to be that 'good time guy' she had during the A. There was a good deal of "you are no fun, so serious all the time" "Just smile more" type comments. Like you ... not my job to be something/someone I am not, I did get to a point I let her know maybe she could find that elsewhere but I was not her personal circus monkey that was going to dance for a quarter.
Keep GALing ... PMA .. just do what you have been doing. You are doing well.
NH
My W had some similar comments/statements .... like she was looking for me to be that 'good time guy' she had during the A. There was a good deal of "you are no fun, so serious all the time" "Just smile more" type comments. Like you ... not my job to be something/someone I am not, I did get to a point I let her know maybe she could find that elsewhere but I was not her personal circus monkey that was going to dance for a quarter.
Keep GALing ... PMA .. just do what you have been doing. You are doing well.
Thanks, Caliguy
I don't think it's so much that she wants me to be someone I'm not. We're actually pretty much on the same page as far as what kind of life we want. She sees the 180s and changes in me and has said several times that she appreciates the improvements.
It's almost like she expects me to replicate that rush she got when she met OM. She wants to feel good about her life and she associates me with the life we had the last three years, which wasn't so good.
She's still waiting for me to do that one magic thing that makes her feel like she wants to feel. She has no clue what that magic thing even is.
I'm too busy being the guy only a fool would leave to worry about performing magic tricks.
Thanks, Caliguy
I don't think it's so much that she wants me to be someone I'm not. We're actually pretty much on the same page as far as what kind of life we want. She sees the 180s and changes in me and has said several times that she appreciates the improvements.
It's almost like she expects me to replicate that rush she got when she met OM. She wants to feel good about her life and she associates me with the life we had the last three years, which wasn't so good.
She's still waiting for me to do that one magic thing that makes her feel like she wants to feel. She has no clue what that magic thing even is.
I'm too busy being the guy only a fool would leave to worry about performing magic tricks.
Yeah that was what I was aiming at ... I never told W point blank .. .look that 'rush' you felt was because of the newness and the sneaking around it created, something her and I would never be able to achieve. I do feel what we have is much deeper and she is starting to feel that and express it lately. Like all things it just takes time.
NH,
I have followed along on your sitch and you always receive the best advice. I realize you are in a difficult place and it sounds like you know what you need to do.
Can I chime in on one thing about what I see regarding your w? I'm no expert in cheating and I can't relate to her feeling of wanting to "feel" that rush of new love. However, from all of your posts where you reference W, I do see someone who is seeking external validation-not just necessarily "new love endorphins". The problem with that (and I do consider myself an expert in that feeling of constantly seeking affirmation of my worth sadly enough) is that it is literally like being on a roller coaster with no lap bar or overhead restraints. I don't know if your w really sees it as "you giving up" when you say you need to move out, but rather "you" may not want her anymore. And if OM rejected her along with her own H, then that leaves her reeling. It perpetuates her feeling of being "too old to find someone" and "wasting her best years" on you which is complete horse caca!!! You cannot fix that feeling. Ever!!!! Only she can.
However, it is probably best to let her feel it fully and live your life. I know you are worried about your kids. That truly $uck$. What are you really worried about happening if you move out? W hooks up with OM? He is an actual toolbox but that's on him. W hooks up with many men? You can't control any of that.
Hang in there. You will get through this!!!:)
That's a very insightful post, GB!
You're right, a lot of this is about external validation. She felt unattractive and unappreciated and downright hated (by my parents). OM offered her that validation. She feels rejected by OM because he went back to his wife (I never tire of hearing that one
), and she feels rejected by me because I'm starting to lose patience with her and move on. Just a constant wallowing in victimhood.
Today I came home feeling on top of the world. I was really productive, got some flirtation at work from a really cute girl who had to be all of 22 (too young for me, but still felt good), had a good MC session today, just felt good all around.
Within 10 minutes I got treated to a rant about how sexually unhealthy she feels. She blamed me, my parents, her overly religious mother, religion in general, her gay first boyfriend, and society's pressure for women to be "pure" before marriage. She's actually angry that she didn't sleep around more before she got married (I was #3 for her). I just told her if she wanted to make up for lost time, then there's the door.
I'm sick of this s***
Despite her issues, she's a great mom, so I don't worry about my kids in that sense. I guess I'm more afraid of being seen (especially by my Ds) as the bad guy, the one who broke up our family. I'm not that concerned about what my W does after me...it's her life, I'll have my own life too.
Hopefully someday she'll wake up from this victimhood thing she's on and figure out what she had with me....Whether I'm an option any more at that point, well, that's just the risk she takes.
I have absolutely no advice to offer as you are getting GREAT advice from some of the best vets on the page. But, I just wanted to pop in and offer support. I continue to send positive thoughts your way.
Hey Dawn, always great to hear from you!
Positive thoughts back at ya. Reading your thread gives me hope.
By the way, 40 days until football season....just saying....
Oh my word!!!! Her freakin' entitlement issues are *killin'* me over here!!!!!
You, NH, are a freakin' saint.
NH,
I would really lay it all out on the table at the MC and express your grave concerns about W's ongoing sense of entitlement.
I really hope you are active in seeking a place to live so you can move out. What's happening with that little project?
The line between saint and chump is a very thin one indeed, Train. "Entitlement" is not strong enough word. I don't know what keeps me hanging on. How is this possibly going to get better?
The living situation is all a matter of money at this point. Getting some bills cleaned up right now. Not as fast as I'd like.
I do need to change the tone in therapy. It's been the W show for far too long in there.
I do need to change the tone in therapy. It's been the W show for far too long in there.
If she pulls it in a joint therapy session, I'd just stand up, make a little speech, and leave. "You know what? This isn't working for me anymore. I must be nuts to spend my time and money -- both of which are precious to me at this point -- to sit here and be treated so disrespectfully. (Looking at wife) And your sense of entitlement and complete lack of introspection is no longer my concern. I'll let you guys work on whatever you want to, but I'm going to go."
But that's just me.
Starsky
^^^ That don't sound like no chump.
That sounds like a saint ... with
balls!
Thanks Train.
I still feel like I'm dancing to her tune too much. I feel trapped because I can't afford to go anyplace yet. I'll get it figured out.
Hi V!
Not much new.
OM is coming in this week. We have MC tomorrow.
I'm reading a book about ambivalence in relationships...how to diagnose whether a relationship is too good to leave..or not.
I'm concentrating on getting my business up and running. I'll post more after MC tomorrow.
Well, that MC session s*cked.
The C starts off by asking how we are. The week had been good for the most part, but I started talking about last Monday, when I came home and got treated to a rant about how she wishes she'd had slept with more men in college; that she feels like her youth was wasted.
I made the mistake of being honest about how that made me feel; that I was sorry I was such a disappointment to her, and that if she wanted to make up for lost time, the door was that way.
All hell broke loose. All the old resentment and blame against me came out. It got so bad at one point that the MC called a time out for both of us.
She says she wants a strong person who is straight with her, but I don't think she means it. That whole strength thing that I was told would help me regain her respect, doesn't seem to work on her. She wants to treat me however she wants, with no repercussions. Whatever I feel or what I want means absolutely nothing to her. She's so wrapped up in her own pain that she has no room for me. And of course, it's my fault.
She thinks I haven't given her enough time to "process" everything, however hell the long that is. It's been almost 11 months since BD. If I call her on her BS, I'm bullying her. If I try to be patient with her, then I allow her to walk all over me. She says she feels no love coming from me, but when I try to be loving, it sails over her head.
Of course all this happens the day before OM comes into town. Great timing, huh? Maybe I should have kept my trap shut for one more week.
If I pull the trigger and leave the marriage, I'm the bad guy who gave up on her and broke up our family. If she pulls the trigger, then I'm the bad guy who treated her badly and made her want to leave.
I'm going to lose no matter what I do.
I'm getting dizzy.
Start a new thread -cadet