Time for a new thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...729#Post2582729Long Story Short:
Miscarriage Jan 2014, my good friend passes away a month later - start of very hard year in our M
BD - Jan, 2015, W moves out that day.
Ring off, name change two weeks later
W moves an hour away siting space needed before making any final decisions
W is not wayward, but was unhappy for a number of reasons:
- lack of intimacy
- I was not a leader in the family
- Addiction issues and all that goes with them
- I was reliant upon my W for my own happiness
I was an everyday marijuana user, drinker, workaholic, Mr. Nice Guy, co-dependent and very shut down emotionally. As of today I am 161 days completely sober and have used BD as fuel to completely change my life.
W indicates that D should be considered in the next few months but is in no hurry. MC session scheduled for July, 1st one since week after BD.
Currently no real contact with W other than the occasional text.
Some people have asked about my handle:
In college I would wear a t-shirt two days in a row and then turn it inside out and wear it again - money was tight and laundry wasn't my favorite activity. My roommate noticed this and started calling me PigPen.
When I came on this site I figured that was also how I felt, surrounded by a cloud of dirt. DB has been a lifesaver and my goal is to walk away from that cloud and into a life of clarity, faith, and understanding.
Thank you to everyone on this board that has helped me thus far on this extraordinarily painful yet necessary journey.
Yesterday was a tough one. After going through the emotional ups and down of the last two weeks - being told my W was ready to work on our M by her cousin - only to find out that she only wants closure, I was hit with some epic food poisoning.
I spent the entire day on the couch, in bed, or running back and forth to the bathroom. Talk about kicking a guy when he's down. I kept telling myself that part of this journey is about becoming completely self reliant and having to take care of myself even in the worst of times. Thank you Universe for yesterday's lesson.
Today I'm working on my goals - writing, listening to a NMMNG podcast, reading DR, and planning the week. One of my W's complaints was that I didn't take a leadership position in our family so I'm taking one in my own life. I own my own company, and have been the captain of a number of collegiate teams, so it's odd that I handed over the leadership role to her as soon as we got married.
That kind of change takes time, but my goal for today is to "act as if" and get myself back on track after dealing with the depression of last week.
I had a small backslide on Friday when my W responded to a text. We had someone reach out to us that didn't know we were separated and my W responded that we were no longer together. I thanked her for handling the text as I was in a workshop.
When she responded to me with "Awkward huh?" I told her she was lucky that she moved out of our town since I have had to tell people in person a number of times and she hasn't. I know it was a jab at her and a bit of "see how much harder all of this is on me." I've still got some work to do on that front.
PP, sorry to hear about the rough couple of weeks. We all have those moods hit us at times, nothing we can do about it other than not let it consume us. Keep moving forward and focusing on ourselves. You seem to be doing great with your own changes, keep them up.
PP, sorry to hear about the rough couple of weeks. We all have those moods hit us at times, nothing we can do about it other than not let it consume us. Keep moving forward and focusing on ourselves. You seem to be doing great with your own changes, keep them up.
Hello PigPen,
I know that feeling all too well, how you felt yesterday...you are not alone buddy. It must've been gut-wrenching.
I really love what Fogg wrote, that's why I quoted it. I agree totally with Fogg.
PigPen, is there anything you can do today that you enjoy doing? I know it's hard to be motivated when a person is down. But that's when you need it most. Anything simple, treat yourself to a favorite food you haven't had in a while, etc.
I am going to say a prayer for you right after I post this.
Peace!
Bob
Thanks guys.
Well Bob, I'm not venturing too far from a bathroom today! My stomach seems to have calmed down, but I'm erring on the side of caution after yesterday.
What I am doing is taking some action. During the last two weeks I let my apartment go to hell, and stopped working on my big picture items. I'm working on a website for fitness, health, and wellness and need to get some writing done for it. That's happening today. I'm also filling myself up with a lot of motivational material (NMMNG podcast), and doing my own free writing.
I'm still battling with the subconscious belief that if I fill my life too full that my W won't come back. It's a crazy belief but I have it for some reason. I'm going to do some writing on that and get to the bottom of it as it has to have a stem in - if I become who I am at the highest level then there's no room for a partner. Or something to that effect.
That on some level is still the core of NMMNG, so I know I haven't resolved it in myself yet.
I'm still battling with the subconscious belief that if I fill my life too full that my W won't come back. It's a crazy belief but I have it for some reason. I'm going to do some writing on that and get to the bottom of it as it has to have a stem in - if I become who I am at the highest level then there's no room for a partner. Or something to that effect.
PigPen,
You're welcome! Staying close to the bathroom is something I had do to numerous times, so I understand. But glad to hear your stomach seems to have calmed down.
I love this:
"What I am doing is taking some action." That's a very good start.
As for the part of your post I quoted at the top, I understand you are confused, hurting, lonely, etc. But
please get that thought out of your mind as soon as you can. The fuller your life is, the more desirable you will become to your W. Does it guarantee it will lead to R? No. But I feel it's your best chance to show her you have changed. Then, who knows where things will head.
Would others care to comment?
Take care.
Bob
Sorry you're struggling with the emotions & the illness.
I wanted to ask for a bit more detail on this learning from cousin that W wanted to work on the M, and then finding out she only wanted to move to closure.
I assumed you talked to W and she clarified that she wasn't coming to work on the R? How did that come about? Did you approach her w/ the news from the cousin, and if so how? What exactly did W say? What steps did she say she was planning to take and what steps has she taken either already or since then.
My W will keep reminding me she still wants a D, or about the plan to sell the house next spring, etc., but she makes no moves to do the things that would move us in that direction.
We've talked about mediation. No mediation scheduled or planned. We've talked about all the things that would need to happen for the house, and I'm the only one working on any of those projects. While that doesn't tell me anything conclusive, remember that you need to pay more attention to her actions than her words.
Also, I see you have MC scheduled. Her initiative or yours? If hers and she says that she wants closure, seriously ask why an MC? What does she think that will accomplish?
Maybe I (or both of us) are misunderstanding what she means by closure. Maybe she wants to see if there is something to save and wants to get to making that decision via MC. If that is the case, take it slow, as MC won't really work too well until she has made a choice to invest her self in trying t make the R work.
If she really just wants closure, sure go to the MC as a safe space to discuss the next steps, but I'd be hesitant to continue after that if she isn't wanting to work to see if the M can be saved. It would be better to look into a mediator (preferably one with a therapy rather than legal background if you still have some hope of the M). Save your MC for when there is work to be done to save the M. Mediator for work to be done to move the other direction.
Good luck & feel better1
Thank you for stopping by Asitis, I've followed your comments elsewhere and value your opinion. Your comments to Rzak were very influential in some journaling I just completed about my fear of filling my life up. I'll post those next.
As for your questions.
I assumed you talked to W and she clarified that she wasn't coming to work on the R? How did that come about? Did you approach her w/ the news from the cousin, and if so how? What exactly did W say? What steps did she say she was planning to take and what steps has she taken either already or since then.
I did talk to my W on the phone. To back up, I have a DB Coach and he recommended that I do the 9th step (I'm in a Buddhist version of the 12 steps) with my W. I was addicted to pot when she met me, wasn't a big drinker but by the end of our marriage was drinking 4 nights a week and every weekend. I never got drunk as I don't like hangovers, but 3 - 4 beers a night was common. Couple that with a joint or two and I was checked out every night. My W craves deep connection. Truthfully, I believe we were both terrified of it despite our mutual need for it.
So I sent my W an email asking if she would sit down with me and a C to go over that step - making amends. I had spoken to her cousin the day before just to fill him in on our situation after finding out that he didn't know.
The day after I sent the email to her I sent him a text saying I had reached out to her by email. He called me immediately and told me to call her saying he had spoken to her that morning and that she "was mourning the loss of the M, mourning the loss of you, and wanted me to man up and call her if I wanted to work on our M."
I might have read into that too much that she was interested or at least open to the idea of us working together. I called her and told her that I was still interested in working on our M and asked if she had gotten my email. She said she had and although she didn't want to dredge up the past was willing to sit down with me as it would be a good way "to get closure". When I asked if she would feel more comfortable at her IC's she said, "No, my IC is part of my new life and I don't want to associate you with her."
Specifically I never told her that I had spoken to her cousin. We were going off of my email request to sit down for the 9th step. When she left she told me to stop fighting for our M and to fight for myself. So in our call I told her that I had fought for myself, gotten myself well and didn't want to walk away from our M without at least sitting down and having a conversation with a third party in the room. She agreed.
She hasn't said that she has taken any steps. When I returned from a leave out of the country I told her that my focus was on my sobriety and getting back to work but I was open to communication with her. She replied that "we need to at some point in the future think about who gets our dog, as well as filing and finalizing everything." That's all I've heard from her on the subject and that was prior to me speaking with her cousin.
Also, I see you have MC scheduled. Her initiative or yours? If hers and she says that she wants closure, seriously ask why an MC? What does she think that will accomplish?
The MC session I've written about is the session she agree to that is part 9th step, part just the need to talk with a third party present. I should qualify that it's not a true "MC" session, just a way for us both to speak with a profession in the room.
We both agreed that there were communication challenges when we talk - she took my focus on sobriety and work as "I could tell you had moved on" when in fact that's the farthest thing from the truth. I had returned to my hometown after being gone for two months and wasn't sure how well I was going to integrate back into my community as a sober person and without her.
My point was simply that my sobriety had to be goal #1. Low and behold it hasn't been an issue at all, nor do I expect it to be. I'm almost 40 and can make my own decisions. I realized after about 4 days that it wasn't going to be a problem.
Again, I appreciate your take on all of this. I'm looking at it in the DB manner of - there's still a reason she hasn't filed. She doesn't need my permission or blessing or closure to do so. She sure as hell didn't need any of the above to leave! But something is still holding her back and I can use this time wisely.
She told me early that she needed to see how I shake out with sobriety before she makes any final decisions. My W works at drug rehabs and believes that the odds are against me. I've changed my life but she is still very hesitant to bring me back into her life at all right now. I understand that after 5 years of seeing the same patterns and hearing that "I'm fine, it's just a tough week."
Clearer now.
My W is mourning the loss of our M and feeling grief & suffering. I'm sure others (like your cousin) will read that as she is having second thoughts and wants M back. Unfortunately, it isn't what she means at all. It is what it is.
Your cousin was well-meaning, but don't act on anything any third party tells you, unless it is "your W told me that she wants to reconcile but is struggling with whether you'll take her back" ... or "how to bring it up given the pain she has called" ... or something else very explicitly a message from W via a middle man/woman. If she wants to work on the R, she will let you know. Until she does, don't try to work on the R. I'd even back off on the including her in your personal program to deal with your recovery. She is willing to, but you are just reminding her that she wants to move on and reminding her that you did things that didn't make her happy.
You want things to settle, no reminders of bad things. No reaching out to show her you are working on those things she flagged. Work on them, but for yourself. You don't want her thinking you are doing this to get her back, as she doesn't want back and she will feel pursued.
I'd ask the DB coach again about the moving to making amends when the W clearly has told you she doesn't want to work on the M, but that you should focus on working on you. I don't know enough about what your interactions have been lately (or exactly what DB coach said), but based on what you've said, you can't be the one to suggest working on the M. The WAW is going to make it about your problem driving her away, but from what you've said she said, it is that she is going off to work on the problem that is preventing her from wanting to work on the M.
So, she has said, you need to stop working on step 2 (the M) and work on step 1 (you). You aren't the one to decide, hey I'm done with step 1 & ready for step 2, as it really isn't about you working on step 1. It is about her working on her step 1 and deciding she is ready to work on step 2. See?
Besides, W is not going to take your word for it that you have dealt with step 1. She will need to see that you are different. And that will include (prob. more than the pot/drinking/emotional availability issue) that you have stopped pursuing saving the M. And even then, if she isn't ready, she isn't ready. It [censored] to have her calling the shots on this, but you aren't powerless. You are making moves to stop pursuit, GAL, 180s, etc. and that will give her the time, space, and changes in your R dynamics that give you the best shot.
So, slow down the MC step until you confirm with your DB coach that this is what he/she meant and report back how your W has responded.
Good luck.
Thanks Asitis. I very much appreciate your insight.
People on this board say that one thing won't make or break whether there's a chance at reconciliation but I have a feeling that I stepped in some [censored] in the past two weeks by calling my W and emailing her in the same 48 hour period - both of which were about creating a face to face meeting. At one point during my call I got a bit emotional which might have also been a turn off as well.
I thought I was getting information right from the horse's mouth when her cousin said, "She wants you to call her if you want to work on the M." She might have just been telling him that there was no way she was going to be the one to make the call, not that she was interested in working on things herself. Who knows. The reply I got was certainly not one that made me think that she was anything but happy where she was in her life without me.
Time to re-read DR and keep working on detaching.
It's not baseball, so it's not 3 strikes and your out. Most of us have stepped in lots of pile during the process. Re-reading DR will remind you that it is practices not one event.
Don't beat yourself up over misinterpreting the cousin. Part of the problem we all (including myself) is that we are looking for ways to hopefully interpret what we hear or see. It is normal and natural, and your DB coach will give you some perspective on how many people have stepped in lots of piles and still saved their M.
Also remember that don't trust what they say (I wouldn't say 100%, but definitely most) and only part of what they do. She needs space. She asked for space. Take that seriously. She has a process to go through just like you do, and during stretches of that she genuinely does not feel like coming back. What matters is where she ends up, not where she is at the moment. Let her go through her process and focus on you working through your process.
Believe me, there will likely come times where you don't feel much for her and wonder about whether this is worth it. I know I don't feel much causing me to want to be with my W of late. Does that mean I will stay that way? All it will take is her wanting to genuinely invest in the R and showing me some of the person I know I love for that to start to change. Once you start seeing that in yourself, you will start to understand that where she is at the moment (even if she is being honest with herself or you) isn't really the issue.
If you aren't taking notes re: your coaching sessions and your goals and baby steps and the signs that things are moving in the right direction, start doing so. It gives you something to review to help stay on track. It also helps you see where you might not be doing your best to follow through on the plan you and your coach laid out, and the insights about the process you learn in your coaching sessions.
It is amazing how much this causes us to see things we aren't doing as well as we should, gives us something to focus and work on rather than worrying about what our Ss are doing, and remind us that we have a plan and that we need to give that time to actually work. It won't be quick.
Hang in there. No game changing mistakes have been made. She hasn't moved the D process along. And you don't know whether she has really made up her mind. Patience.
My coach has told me repeatedly that the single most important factor determining success is giving things time to work. Not jumping around, being inconsistent, changing messages at the first sign of mistake or that things aren't working.
My coach has told me repeatedly that the single most important factor determining success is giving things time to work. Not jumping around, being inconsistent, changing messages at the first sign of mistake or that things aren't working.
I'm reading this and rereading this and rereading this over and over and over today. For some reason I want to just jump out of my skin this morning and DO SOMETHING. I want to write a handwritten letter, I want to make a phone call, I want to send an email, I want to make a crafty FB post that hopefully she'll see, I want to write a frickin poem. Anything.
But, I'm going to sit the "censored" down and be still and let this all play out without my interference. I'm not going to spend all day on this forum, nor obsess about my sitch. I'm going to work, create, meditate, workout, and communicate with people I love.
It looks like all hell broke loose in the marriage world over the weekend with all the newcomers around here. Hang on folks, my heart goes out to each and every one of you.
PP,
Now, let's work together on a concerted approach to the first MC session.
What's your plan now that you've read up some articles on apologies vs. making amends?
It is just around the corner and you would want to be as prepared as possible.
Proper preparation prevents poor performance.
Hi Wonka,
Thank you for your time, truly. This will definitely help me focus. I'm scattered today and probably shouldn't have had the extra half cup of coffee.
My approach after reading the materials was to shift heavily away from:
Here is a list of every awful thing I did and why I'm so so so sorry that I did it. I realize that she's heard me apologize before and still left. She's also stated that she doesn't need every detail of our M brought back out to the surface. If I'm honest, doing that would have been a veiled attempt at covertly trying to win her back - I'm sorry, we're cool now right?
My approach after shifting away from the above (thank you for saving me from that btw) was to approach the session with truly no expectations other than empathizing.
My W didn't leave because I was unavailable, et al. She left because she was tired of getting hurt, lied to, and feeling like she was on her own for everything. She described me as the "eternal child" archetype.
My approach is to take ownership for my role, and then empathize with how she must have felt throughout our M, how hard it must have been for her to have to experience our M in this way, and then ask how I can make amends.
The sub goal (not sure how to do this, other than display it through actions such as validating, STFU'ing, and staying emotionally centered), is to show her that I've changed. Not to tell her that I've changed, but show her by not defending myself, making excuses, or minimizing the fact that all along I had choices that I could have made and didn't. I think another way to do this is to use the language I've learned on here, in the books I've read, and from what I've learned from IC'ing. My W works with therapists everyday and part of our challenge was her feeling like she worked in one world and lived in another.
That's my approach. Also, to do as little of the speaking as possible and let the MC lead the way.
I sincerely appreciate your input.
PP,
Here's one more homework assignment for you.
Call an addictions counselor (preferably with the appropriate credentials, etc) to explain your sitch and your goals. Ask for assistance and insights on the best way to make sincere amends to a spouse. If I were you, I'd ask for permission to contact couples with former recovering addicts for some further insights.
Some while ago, I recall going with a client to a court mandated training sessions on drunk driving. I went along to make sure that he didn't wind up in jail if he missed it. The leader of the group was a recovered alcoholic who really changed his life after losing his wife. He got sober and now works as a director of a substance abuse center. Hearing his story was truly inspiring. He was homeless for some time. He truly, truly hit rock bottom.
P.S. When is the MC session date/time?
Thanks Wonka, I'll make the call. I know someone who can help guide me in this as well as point me in the right direction to talk to other couples.
The session is scheduled for July 9th in the afternoon.
PP
My coach has told me repeatedly that the single most important factor determining success is giving things time to work. Not jumping around, being inconsistent, changing messages at the first sign of mistake or that things aren't working.
I'm reading this and rereading this and rereading this over and over and over today. For some reason I want to just jump out of my skin this morning and DO SOMETHING. I want to write a handwritten letter, I want to make a phone call, I want to send an email, I want to make a crafty FB post that hopefully she'll see, I want to write a frickin poem. Anything.
But, I'm going to sit the "censored" down and be still and let this all play out without my interference. I'm not going to spend all day on this forum, nor obsess about my sitch. I'm going to work, create, meditate, workout, and communicate with people I love.
It looks like all hell broke loose in the marriage world over the weekend with all the newcomers around here. Hang on folks, my heart goes out to each and every one of you.
Trust me, I know exactly that urge, and it is really, really hard to resist scratching that itch. You know that it won't help, and will only hurt. Focus instead on the feelings themselves. What's going on in your body while you are having these feelings and urge? Bringing your attention to the actual feelings and sensations and being with them is the best way to let them lose some of their power.
Also, try to reach out and connect to someone you can do something with (even going out to coffee to chat) or other activity that gets you around people.
Good luck & hang in there.
Today was a kick in the pants. I've been anxious all day about my sitch and a meeting with my business partner regarding moving forward. I want to do some other stuff and we've changed our incomes to reflect that, but he wants more. It felt like I'd had six cups of coffee and my solar plexus were a knot of fireworks.
The meeting didn't go that well, there are now upset feelings. Although I did use a lot of Wonka's validation words. It was a balance of saying I knew where he was coming from but also valuing my role. I left it and while driving to the supermarket to get dinner almost hit some poor girl crossing the road on her phone. I was just a distracted mess and didn't even see her.
Truthfully I pulled into the parking lot and started crying. I'm a grown man, and fell apart. No kids, no evil W, none of the regular awfulness I read around here and still it's knocking me off my feet.
I get that this may be gift, but some days it's hard to find the silver lining. I'm going to slow down a bit, take more breaths this week, and focus on the positive. That and drive more carefully.
May there be positive changes in people's sitch's tonight.
Truthfully I pulled into the parking lot and started crying. I'm a grown man, and fell apart. No kids, no evil W, none of the regular awfulness I read around here and still it's knocking me off my feet.
I get that this may be gift, but some days it's hard to find the silver lining. I'm going to slow down a bit, take more breaths this week, and focus on the positive. That and drive more carefully.
Don't ever feel bad for crying, nothing at all wrong with that. Regardless of the differences in our sitches this experience is the hardest thing we have ever been through and we need to release those emotions at times.
Yeah, be careful driving. As embarrassing as this is, I ran into a firehydrant a month or two ago from being distracted. I was coasting in a parking lot and it went into the side of the wheel destroying it. Mistakes happen, we learn from them and move on the best we can.
Sorry the meeting didn't go as well as you wanted, tomorrow is another day. Take it one day at a time if need be.
Thanks Fogg, I appreciate you dropping in. Truthfully I got pulled over yesterday too. I didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign (again, thinking of my W) and the cop asked if I had been drinking.
I took my sunglasses off, smiled and said, "I'm 160 days sober my friend." He asked if I was serious, and I told him I was. I showed him the little sobriety day counter app I have on my phone.
He shook my hand, said, "Congratulations" and told me to be a bit more careful. If there's one of many positive things that have come of my sitch it's the knowledge that I will never wake up hungover again, and will never worry about what's in my system when I get behind the wheel.
I'm sorry to hear about the fire hydrant, I'm glad to hear that you at least laid it all the way out and didn't just half ass it.
Two days in a row means, I'm going to start driving with much more attention. Enough's enough.
Thanks again for your kind words.
He shook my hand, said, "Congratulations" and told me to be a bit more careful. If there's one of many positive things that have come of my sitch it's the knowledge that I will never wake up hungover again, and will never worry about what's in my system when I get behind the wheel.
Definitely something to be proud of, regardless of what happens with your M. You're doing whats best for you and that's something to be admired.
Good cop. I had a similar experience. One night after I found some troubling info about W on her FB I had to leave house, heartbroken. Went to one of the parking lots at a local park and just sat there for a while. 15 mins or so later a cop puts his lights on me. Comes up and asks me what I was doing, just told him I just needed a place to park and think. He asked if I had a bad day and the tears just started flowing again and told him my W wanted a D and is having an A. He said a few nice words and just asked me to move to the Meijers parking lot.
But yeah, be careful driving lol. It can get you in trouble.
Wow, you acted like a human. You allowed painful feelings to be expressed. Turn in your man card, you have risen to being a full-fledged human being.
What happened wasn't negative. Don't view your sitch that way. Just as w/ spouse, business partnerships are relationships inn which you struggle and adapt/negotiate.
Thanks guys, I'm ever vigilant behind the wheel now. I believe in the law of threes and know that I've had two run ins in the last 48 hours in a car. The last thing I need to have right now is an accident or hurt someone. That'd be the icing on the cake.
Today is a tough one, I woke up with a huge knot in my chest and then proceeded to journal it out through a ton of tears. It's truly like something has taken over my body that I have no control of. Nothing happened to trigger it, I imagine it may just be the stress of the last week between my W, my partner, and getting sick. I miss my dog like crazy too. My W has had him for 3 months and I haven't pushed it to get him back. When I did bring it up in an email she didn't respond. I let it go.
It's challenging for me to be at work as there are photos of my W around - group photos so I can't take them down - and I feel her energy in the walls. She was a big part of it from the beginning and a week ago we celebrated our 6th anniversary, the first one without her. I've also felt the tension between myself and my partner and know that now it will be even more palpable after yesterday's disagreement. It feels like my little apartment is the only safe place right now but I know I can't hide out here from the world. Life has to go on.
I keep trying to focus on the fact that W and I are going to sit down next week for the first time in over 3 months. Crazy to believe. I'm equal parts excited to see her, equal parts uncomfortable with it as it's going to be a challenging conversation and it seems like at the end of each of our interactions since the day she left I'm more disappointed or upset. I know that comes from having an expectation and then having that expectation not met.
That's the challenge this week - detachment from an outcome. From any outcome other than peace within myself, but that doesn't seem to be coming in any form that I can recognize just yet. It feels like the opposite is happening - less peace, more turmoil. Maybe that's just part of the process to get to the other side. It feels like this whole journey is going to end up breaking me today, not the other way around.
People keep giving me the butterfly metaphor, and yes, intellectually I understand it. I'm goo. Got it. You can't get to the butterfly part without the goo part. Got that too. I'm just getting tired of being goo.
Sorry for the downer post, it's an uphill fight today.
PP,
Interesting how the Universe works to aid us. Those incidents are the Universe's messages to slow down and pay attention. You're doing good. Yeah, we all have had those types of experiences one way or another.
In fact, TWO days ago I was driving a road that I've driven on for most of my adult life. Got flagged by a cop who tells me I was driving 40 mph on a 30 mph road. He was a kind cop and just gave me a warning to be careful.
P.S. Just saw your recent post. Yeah, we all have really down moments. Let them wash over you. Tomorrow will be a better day. FYI, Ms. Wonka and I did many dog switcheroos which were used to show my changes. Something to think about...hmmmm.
Thanks Wonka, the cop's exact words were "Just slow it down a bit ok?"
I missed that he might have just been an angel dropping by my situation.
Hmmmmm....is right Wonka. My W has stated that she wants to keep the dog, I have said the same. We also agreed that whoever ended up in the better situation for him would keep him. I'm on an acre of land, she's in a condo.
She also said that co-parenting wasn't a good option as he needs consistency. He's a dog btw. We found him eating a diaper on the beach in South America. Him eating twice a day is as much consistency as he needs.
That being said, my thought was to use trading him back and forth as some meeting times. When I dropped him off last I had his collar switched to her phone number, had his nails clipped, and had put his tick meds on the week before. She sent me a text after saying that she never would have thought to switch the collar and how much she appreciated it.
I've been holding off on bringing it up so as not to rock the boat but have read on here "What's the worst she'll do, leave you?" if I upset her. That ship sailed six months ago.
It might be good for her to have some time without him too to realize that life isn't going to be perfect if we get D.
My DB Coach said to use it as an opportunity for collaboration rather than an insistence. Not sure of the timing of bringing it up with the upcoming counseling session.
Any thoughts on that Wonka? Let things lie low till after that?
I should add that the last time we spoke about him (early June) I asked her to keep him for one more month so there would a natural change over with the new month coming.
I would hold off on wanting to see the dog until after you have had your first MC session. Right now, you two need space and calm waters.
Ms. Wonka and I did the dog switcheroo every month or so. We lived 6 hours apart at that time.
PP
Dogs are dogs, they neither know or understand consistency.
For heavens sake they like bones and fox pooh. And food twice a day? pure luxury.
Rides in cars? What fun.
New places to sniff and explore? Loving it, but hey Mr woof will be so keen whenever.
Take your time.
A talking point with WAW? Gotta go do it.
V
I would hold off on wanting to see the dog until after you have had your first MC session. Right now, you two need space and calm waters.
Hi PigPen,
I finally had a chance to catch up with your last few days. Wow, I truly believe the cop was an angel checking in on you.
I'm sure you can guess why I quoted Wonka's sentences above. You got it...please listen to her.
I'm so happy that you were able to let your feelings out. You are g-r-o-w-i-n-g.
Your friend,
Bob
Thank you Wonka and V!! Much love to you both.
I bit my tongue with the consistency comment. We both live in vacation destinations and if our poor pup has to be shuttled back and forth between the two, lord knows what might happen. He might start acting up at school and eating less of his organic food.
The horror.
I'll let it go until after the MC, I don't want her walking into that upset with me for any reason.
Thanks Bob, I'm listening to Wonka with both ears.
Growing is a good way to view this. With growth there is pain so I guess that's another way to view my situation.
I really appreciate you dropping by and framing it that way.
PP
I really appreciate you dropping by and framing it that way.
Any time, my friend, any time!
Hang tough and keep growing.
Bob
Just finished the 5 Love Languages. That would have been a BIG help from the start of our M. Holy smokes was I off base.
My W's LL was clearly Quality Time followed by Physical Touch. Quality time is hard to get when your H is stoned all day. Physical Touch she got a lot of, but I think was also smothering to her as the QT wasn't there. She would often steal me away from work or large gatherings and try to make time where we were alone and could have dinner on the beach or spend a weekend out of town. I thought maybe she didn't like our community but now realize she craved the quality that can only come from undivided attention.
Mine are Acts of Service and Physical Touch. Before my W got home I would clean the house, cook dinner, make sure that the dog was fed, and that our meals were planned out for the week. When she got home I'd want to hang out on the couch and watch tv with her cuddled up.
Because I wasn't getting any Acts of Service performed for me - I was taking care of them and then silently resentful that they weren't being taken care of in return - I leaned on physical touch. If we were driving, walking, sitting, or reading, I would want to touch my W in some way. Basically if she were home I was touching her.
One of her main complaints was that I needed her presence for my own happiness and that was draining. I now see this as not needed her presence, but actually needing her there so I could touch her. This put a lot of pressure on her to be "around" and since she is highly independent was a drain on her.
How frustrating in hindsight. All she wanted me to do was be present, open, and available so that we could talk, play cards, go to a dance class, or hike. It was the Quality that was missing, not the time. I never understood how could say we didn't have intimacy when we spent so much time going on handheld walks, or were curled up under a blanket together. Nine times out of ten I was stoned for these, so there was no real quality or connection.
When she left, we had a few dinners together and open communication and she told me how wonderful it was to feel me completely engaged with her and giving her all of my attention with clear eyes. This is now impossible to do though since we don't see each other.
How heartbreaking to realize that so much of our M could have been fixed with small tweaks and those small tweaks would have led to much bigger levels of happiness. I was certainly going about the M in a number of ineffective ways and not realizing that, just trying to do more of what wasn't working.
Wonka - I have an appointment tomorrow with an addiction specialist re: making amends with a spouse. He will be directing me to a couple that I can speak to as well.
I'll post after I talk with him tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks!
PP
Wonka - I have an appointment tomorrow with an addiction specialist re: making amends with a spouse. He will be directing me to a couple that I can speak to as well.
I'll post after I talk with him tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks!
PP
Way to go!
Yah, that 5LL is a real eye-opener, isn't it? That should be a required gift at EVERY wedding reception.
Just finished the 5 Love Languages. That would have been a BIG help from the start of our M. Holy smokes was I off base.
How heartbreaking to realize that so much of our M could have been fixed with small tweaks and those small tweaks would have led to much bigger levels of happiness. I was certainly going about the M in a number of ineffective ways and not realizing that, just trying to do more of what wasn't working.
If only we knew then what we know now, right? M is hard and people are rarely equipped with the tools needed to survive. The sad part is we finally realize we needed those tools only when hit with something like BD.
Sometimes the only way we can see the light is to experience the darkness first.
'The Solo Partner' I'm finding very useful also. Goes into emotional reactivity, being defensive and the pursuit/distancing dynamic. I had issues with all of these in the M so its helping understand where they came from and how the arguments me and W had spiraled out of control from something stupid. I'm still reading through it, there are a few other chapters that may apply to me also.
Wonka - I have an appointment tomorrow with an addiction specialist re: making amends with a spouse. He will be directing me to a couple that I can speak to as well.
I'll post after I talk with him tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks!
PP
Way to go!
Yah, that 5LL is a real eye-opener, isn't it? That should be a required gift at EVERY wedding reception.
Really loving this PP.
V
Just got off the phone with the counselor regarding amends Wonka & V.
He advised me to write everything out beforehand, and then go through it a few more times and remove anything that is projecting, blaming, or not taking complete ownership myself. This is not a confession, and not an apology, but a time to take ownership for the pain and heartache that I caused.
Due to the fact that it's my W and not an employer or a neighbor who I stole from etc, he advised me to try to put myself in her shoes (I have), someone who has had to alter the very future they wanted at one point, and the gravity of that. I am to go through it a third time and make sure that I'm speaking directly to what I believe her negative experience was, the level that she must have felt betrayed, minimized, and how the lack of true intimacy must have left her feeling alone.
I get it, it's a big "censored" deal - and it's not about me.
He's going to pass the name of a couple on to me tomorrow after he speaks with them that have gone through this and are still together. That will be helpful as well.
Talking to my IC today was interesting too. He was telling me that in the case of addictions there's a splitting of the persona per say and that making amends is the bridging of two worlds - the secret world of addiction and the real world people that have been effected by it. He says that it's extremely hard, but very healing for both parities. I certainly hope so. I have learned so much in the last six months and one thing is clear - one life is more than I can handle. Never again will I try to lead two.
Stay strong PP. Your post really touched me. I believe you do "Get It"
I pray you never lead two lives again.
Hi PigPen,
Your post really touched me, too. You have learned so much and are quite an inspiration to me.
You've got this...Good luck sir!
Bob
PP
Take your time.
You may need to do this amends slowly and in stages. A little like a garden the flowers will bloom all summer, not all one big show.
Remember that just because you are ready to make amends WAW may not be ready to hear and feel it. It make release many emotions for WAW and these can change over time too.
Breathe cleansing green air deep into your soul stay calm. This isn't easy.
V
Oh and if I haven't said so, whilst it truly is not for me to say
I am very proud of you.
V
Thank you Teach, Bob and of course, V. I am very touched by your kindness and appreciate you all immensely.
Truly V, I am proud of myself, but it is a tainted pride. My IC asked me how I felt about next week's meeting and I told him quite truthfully, I am terrified. Not because if I make a mistake my W will leave me, or somehow I'm going to push her further away - she's long gone. But because I have to be myself, completely vulnerable, with nothing to hide behind.
That is not about admitting that I smoked too much, or drank too much, or lied about any of it, but because I will have to sit there and be completely me. It may sound odd to others, but for me that evokes true terror, even in front of someone as forgiving and loving as my W. Somewhere in my being I believe that to be seen is akin to death. My hand starts to shake when I think about it, and I have been paid well in my life to protect people who's lives were in imminent danger. I have been armed in dangerous situations and not blinked an eye, but to my core am scared of being honest about what I was going through in my M. It makes no sense to me rationally.
My pride is tainted because I know that my turnaround came only after so much pain was inflicted upon the one person I love more than anyone else in the world, that she could only remove herself as protection. That is not who I am. That is how I acted though. I went from protector, to cause of harm. That's nothing to be proud of.
Real courage would have been to be honest when asked, to be vulnerable enough years ago to say, "I think I have a problem and need your help." This is courage after the fact, and that's not courage at all. No I have nothing left to lose but the bullshit story I've been hiding behind for 25 years.
I know that saying, " the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is today." So on some level I'm glad that my tree got planted 166 days ago. I'm going to water it everyday till I pass on and hope that it grows strong and gives other people a good reason to plant their own.
Next week I'm going to muster as much courage as I have in my whole heart and speak my truth, unfazed by any potential negative consequences of doing so. I know enough to know I'm not going to die from it, even if it feels like it. If I do, my W will probably resuscitate me, just so she can have the pleasure of D'ing me later!
Thank you Teach, Bob and of course, V. I am very touched by your kindness and appreciate you all immensely.
Hello my friend,
You're so welcome. I wanted to catch up on your sitch and see you just posted. But first, thank you for the encouraging post in my thread earlier today. And please do keep those prayers coming, if you don't mind. You are in mine, too.
PP, I have seen such tremendous emotional growth by you since you joined this board. You are owning up to your part in the issues in your M. Whether it is for me to say or not, I, too (like V) am so proud of you.
Don't look back and keep moving forward!
I wish you well.
Bob
There is no such thing as tainted pride. They say pride is one of the seven deadly sins, but being proud of who you are is self esteem.
Being brave enough to be vulnerable, then there is no shame in it.
You don't have to speak the truth, just live it.
V
PP,
Wow...I can feel your tentative approach to being vulnerable from this side of the screen. I cannot help but be moved by it.
I am wondering if you could ask that counselor if he would be willing to be a sounding board to you in guiding you through composing the making amends letter. What I mean is that you can start writing up some drafts now (of course...no work on Fourth of July!) until the first MC session
this coming Wednesday. That can be added, changed, and adjusted after you get the green light to meet the couple who successfully navigated through recovery.
The following posts moved me:
That is not about admitting that I smoked too much, or drank too much, or lied about any of it, but because I will have to sit there and be completely me. It may sound odd to others, but for me that evokes true terror, even in front of someone as forgiving and loving as my W.
Real courage would have been to be honest when asked, to be vulnerable enough years ago to say, "I think I have a problem and need your help." This is courage after the fact, and that's not courage at all. No I have nothing left to lose but the bullshit story I've been hiding behind for 25 years.
What you are doing right now is VERY courageous. Taking steps to be vulnerable and being prepared for the possibility of being rejected by a loved one in all of your naked glory. That is TRUE courage in every sense of the word.
I think it is admirable that you are reclaiming your true authentic self and that is a wonder to behold from where I sit in my chair.
A couple of days before your meeting consider watching the amazing TED talks on vulnerability by Brene Brown. I highly recommend them, both Jim and Edz passed these connections to me. It really gave me insight.
When you are brave enough to become then the glow of the higher power becomes a strength.
I really like Wonkas post about the practice. If I can be of help please post.
Take all the strength I can project to you.
V
Thank you Bob, Wonka, and V. Again, please allow me to sincerely thank you and know that I'm drawing strength from each of your comments.
Wonka, I will be writing everything out and going through it multiple times, I have another conversation set up with the counselor I spoke to prior to our meeting to go over everything with him again.
Dear V, I will be watching the Brene Brown TED talk as well. I've seen it before but know that it contains so many gems about this meeting.
I know I need to do this, and do it with authenticity. I feel that in my heart. I know I need to do it for myself first, not just for my W. I need to be able to sit in my own skin and admit that I had problems out loud to the one person who's opinion still holds the most weight in my world. Intellectually I understand the benefit of doing this, emotionally I know that it's just something that has to be done no matter how scary it may seem.
Last night I dreamed that I was trapped in a room with no way out and had to start ripping parts of the walls apart to try to escape. When I did get out, my W was there telling me that she would come to our meeting on Thurs but that she had nothing positive to say about our M. Needless to say, some part of me is going to have a very interesting week processing this event and dealing with the fears that it is evoking.
Looking at my DB process from the outside, I know this meeting needs to happen on a number of levels. I need to change before there's ever a chance for our M. I won't be changed until this meeting happens. My W needs to FEEL that I've changed if our M has a shot. She can't feel that I have changed until she hears me speak my truth uncensored. She won't consider any kind of reconciliation until she feels in her heart that I have changed, and maybe she still won't. I do understand as well that unless the changes are real, we'd be doomed if we got back together.
Part of the changes becoming real, not just something that I talk about and can articulate well, involve sitting in that hot seat and being truthful. My IC spoke to me las week about alchemy - and how true change often comes from sitting in an "emotional fire" of sorts. I think all of us LBS's sit in the fire daily.
Lastly, this week especially, I have to remember that my W is a human being, not some mythical creature who holds power of me and my future. She is soul that has been hurt over and over and has taken action to protect herself from further hurt and heartache. She is as disappointed as I am over where we are at, and has her own set of needs, hopes and dreams that have been taken from her. It breaks my heart to write that but I know it is true.
Happy 4th of July to all of you in the US, may this independence day bring peace to all of our sitchs, and ease the pain that is in our hearts.
PP
Happy 4th of July to all of you in the US, may this independence day bring peace to all of our sitchs, and ease the pain that is in our hearts.
Hey buddy,
Very nice sentiment at the end of your last post. You are an excellent writer.
I can't thank you enough for the incredible post you added to my thread earlier tonight. I did reply in my thread, but I also wanted to thank you here and see how you are.
I feel both Wonka and Vanilla gave you solid advice regarding your upcoming meeting.
Stay strong and positive, PP!
P.S. I already said a prayer dedicated to you after I replied to your post in my thread. We will all help each other through these heart-breaking times.
Best wishes.
Bob
PigPen, you are a true inspiration to me. I absolutely love how you have taken such responsibility for your part in what's gone wrong with your M. Should you guys come through this, your W will be one of the most blessed women in the world to have such an evolved and self-aware husband.
Thinking of you and praying for you.
Jeez Dif, you just made me get all teared up! Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. I'm going to use the given strength from everyone on this board this week.
I've been dreaming of my this weekend W, but not being able to remember the dreams when I wake up. That being said, last night I dreamed I had to give a speech in front of a group of people.
Right before the speech began I asked for a black sharpie marker, left the room and wrote "TRUTH" in big letters on the front of my shirt. I was surprised to find there was a story written there on my shirt already, so I had to work the TRUTH lettering around it.
The dream seemed fitting for what is coming up this week.
Yesterday was awful as I wrote, the 4th was always such a good time with my W. I couldn't get her out of my thoughts and even though I'm as detached as I can be, checked my phone a bunch of times to see if she has wished me a happy 4th. No such luck.
It's certainly hard to keep producing my own inspiration and faith with someone who has gone so dark on me as well. Reading Asitis's line about patience and DB'ing was helpful as is it to read some of the success stories and how much lack of contact exists between couples that do end up working things out. I feel like we are in parallel universes however, me here DB'ing and continuing my own process, her moving on.
Of course that's mind reading, but every time I speak with her she let's me know that she's getting more and more comfortable without me. I know, believe nothing. It's still hard though. I wanted desperately to send her a TM yesterday, but held it in. If she wanted to hear from me, she knows how to get a hold of me.
Yesterday I used the day to write, to listen to motivational videos on YT and to draft up an updated partnership agreement for my business. I've wanted to go out on my own for a long time but haven't had the courage to really step away from my business. I took BD as an opportunity for PigPen 2.0, and am putting those pieces into place right now.
It's a lot at once but I figure that since the house got knocked down I might as well rebuild it exactly how I want it to be for the next 20 years. It's hard to be homeless per say, but know that it won't be like this forever. Breathe in breathe out. Keep learning. Stay open. Be honest. Ask for help. Have faith. Keep writing.
I may need to come on here a few times today and dump my anxiety, it's pumping a bit this morning.
Peaceful Sunday DB'er.
PP
Hey Pigpen. I haven't been posting as much lately. I think I feel guilty. I am still struggling with my own suffering, but compared to months 3-6 after BD...oh my gosh, I wish I could take some of your burden. Actually, I don't because I'm gasping with relief that I have some moments of peace, and I don't know I could give that up just now...but I WISH I wished I could take some of your burden.
The length and uncertainty of this journey is beyond explanation. I know this is DB forums, and we come with the goal to stand by your M. But really, feeling emotionally invested in the outcome of your M would be like if there was a forum where people posted about how they were anxious whether their newborn child would go into law school. I mean...it might happen, but it's not in your control and it's like two decades away. Hell of a thing to hold your breath for.
I'm over a year in and have seen NO signs of change from WAS. If I were a gambling man I'd bet against R. And as the positive emotions have been starved off, the co-dependency has been broken, the hurt has been so deep and seemingly eternal, and the destruction has been so great, it's hard to even consider R a desirable outcome...there's no path from here that doesn't go through years of further suffering, and any future R will be tainted, either with a prior failed marriage, or with prior betrayals and devastation. Months roll by like days and I keep walking, and I have still to see any sign that the edge of the pain is truly nearing. So I keep walking, and I mourn because the loss is real no matter what the future holds.
Detachment is the only salvation. It's hard to drive seven hours with kids that ask "are we there yet" 10 minutes into the trip. It's going to be a long, long ride, and you won't be the same person at the end. So other than sobriety, I'd make your top priority be doing anything and everything to detach. I know you have other issues, we all do...but until you detach you really can't work on them IMO because you're still doing everything through the lens of what will WAS think. I pray for you to get one step towards detachment today, and to feel some respite from the hell that is month 6.
Yesterday was awful as I wrote, the 4th was always such a good time with my W. I couldn't get her out of my thoughts and even though I'm as detached as I can be, checked my phone a bunch of times to see if she has wished me a happy 4th. No such luck.
I'm still learning the hard way that I have to look forward in the coming month for days that might be difficult because they have some kind of significance (anniversary, day where family has done something special together than I'll be reminded of, etc.) and start immediately planning to have something to do with sympathetic people. Yesterday, as I suspect many of us discovered the hard way, was a hard one as it is traditionally a family get together. Really wish I had figured out some way to get out with friends (no family in the area for me).
I'm set on the upcoming anniversary, but yesterday wasn't the first day I didn't plan ahead. Hopefully, I'll start learning from the mistake better soon.
My stomach's been in knots all weekend Asitis! Knots. Don't know why either. I've been focusing on GAL'ing and pouring myself into my work, but it's just hard to breathe today.
I agree that the holiday was a hard one and I should have done more to spend it with people. It's a quagmire or wanting to be alone and needing to be around others.
Not my best day today either.
My stomach's been in knots all weekend Asitis! Knots. Don't know why either. I've been focusing on GAL'ing and pouring myself into my work, but it's just hard to breathe today.
I agree that the holiday was a hard one and I should have done more to spend it with people. It's a quagmire or wanting to be alone and needing to be around others.
Not my best day today either.
Do you have any friends or family nearby that you can talk to, or better yet take you out. I know going out to be around people is probably the last thing you feel like, but trust me that it works at times like this.
Do you have a life raft kit? Poems or sayings that you turn to, religious texts, music, activities, or friends you turn to when you on the lift raft and adrift at sea? Now would be the time to pull it out and use it. [If not, consider putting one together after this passes]
Exercise can help. So can meditation. Focus on your breath and then the pain. Breathe in and out while focusing on the pain. What does it feel like in your body? Label the pain (is it jealousy, resentment, frustration, anger, hurt, fear, etc.). It will likely be more than one. Then just breathe while you let yourself fully experience/feel the pain. How it feels in your body, what the emotion feels like, what it makes your feel like doing? If your mind starts to wander into stories about the feeling, say "thinking" or "telling stories" and gently bring your attention back to your breath and feeling the feeling. Take one feeling at a time.
It shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes, but you will find that the feelings begin to open up and lose some of their power.
There are other practices that I could give you if that doesn't do the trick, but I suspect it will help get you from feeling all twisted in knots.
Let me know. I have the kids, but I'll try to check in later.
Thanks Asitis, I threw down a bunch of thoughts in a journal and then sat in meditation for 20 minutes. The combo helped a ton. I'm anxious about our upcoming session and was feeling the lack of her presence over the holiday.
Spending the weekend writing was good for me but also drew out a lot of emotions.
Appreciate your help.
PP
Glad you're doing better. I know anticipatory fear well. Try to approach it as just a time to listen. Even if she drops a bomb on you, you keep DBing by not reacting, listening, and validating. Maybe just what your R needs. In other words, it is under stress and test that we show our stuff. W takes note, even if it is subconsciously: this is not the same old PP. What's going on here? So, you never know whether it is a good or bad session until long after, and maybe never.
Do you know the parable of old Chinese farmer? Farmer's horse runs away, and his neighbors tell him "oh, what bad luck." All he says is "maybe." The next morning the horse returns with 3 wild horses in toe. The neighbors say, "oh, what good luck," and the farmer replies "maybe."
His son falls from one of the wild horses when he tries to break & tame it, breaking his leg badly. The neighbors say, "oh, what bad luck," and the old farmer replies "maybe." The next day, the military visits the village to conscript young men to serve. They reject the old farmers son because of his broken leg. The neighbors all say, "oh, what good fortune," and the old farmer just says "maybe."
As you feel the fear of your session coming up, just sit with and explore that fear. Befriend it. Find out what it really is a fear of/where is it coming from? What does it tell you about your core belief in how the world should work. That is one of the best ways I've found to take some of the power out of anticipatory fear, and I'm a pro at getting myself twisted in knots about the future.
Good luck.
Thanks Asitis, I spent this morning in meditation and a solid 40 minutes with a pen and journal. Detaching is still very hard, especially this week when I know we will be meeting for the first time in 3 months.
I've sat with my fear now and know that it's the possible finality of my situation or at least perceived finality that is weighing on me. PMA'ing for me has been keeping that tiny kernel of hope alive despite all evidence to the contrary. However my fear (either rational or otherwise) IS that my W drops the D bomb and truly means it, during this meeting. It's just a fear. There are infinite possibilities I know, and I have had this fear in every one of our meetings since the moment she walked out.
When she came back 5 days after BD I thought she'd have paperwork, she was astounded that I would think so. When we met two weeks later, the same. When I came back from my trip to Central America, I figured that was waiting for me - it wasn't. It's been my fear all along, despite the emotional and energetic D that's already happened. Our M is dead, I see that, but the curious side of me still holds on to hope.
For some reason the fact that she hasn't filed is the rope that I cannot drop. At this point I still can't fathom a life without her, she has been an integral part of my story through so many chapters of my life that imagining any future chapter without her still stops me in my tracks. Detachment is not my strong suit. I miss my dog. I miss her.
This week, I am simply making myself as strong as possible even with the knot in my stomach that will not dissipate despite the meditating, journaling, GAL'ing, and exercising that is planned. It's ever present. I'm just going to have to breathe through it and keep expanding my stomach. There's a huge lesson in this week for me.
I see the value and importance of our upcoming meeting - as well as how it's just one small piece of this huge journey - and on some level know that my future doesn't hinge on the perfect word choices, or the perfect set of actions. Like you said, the effect may not be felt until much further down the road once everything gets a chance to settle in. Or it may not and she may show up ready to D me on the spot. Anything is possible. Anything. I've asked for a chance to show that I've made changes and this is the first of those chances. Walking into it strong, rested, and clearheaded is vital.
Hey PP,
You said in an earlier post that we have similar sitch in some ways. I feel everything you just wrote. My w has dropped d bomb a few times, and wanted seperation agreement done by now, but that hasnt progressed or been mentioned in 11 weeks. I to have not been able to detach, I to dont want to give up. My w is now dating someone, who she has most likely been having an ea for sometime now, but she keeps me hanging on by telling me she doesnt know what the future holds, and she hasnt filed. Not knowing about affair we have built a friendship that i thought was a new beginning these last few months, but now i dont know what is true.
I know my w is in there somewhere. I know i am not giving up, but the pain is sometimes unbearable. I feel like Forest Gump, he and Jenny kept running away, but kept returning when they were not on the same page. In the end, however, they came together, really together forever. I miss my Jenny too. One day at a time, breathe, live, we'll make it to the other side, and it will be amazing.
By the way. i am 9 months straight and sober today.
Thanks Help,
Congrats on 9 months. I'm coming up on day 180 next week. Feels amazing. Definitely was long overdue and something that I ponder every day in my sitch. I wonder what my life would look like if my W hadn't left. Would I still be getting high every day? Would I still be setting up challenges for myself (no drinking this week), and then breaking that on Tuesday night, or even Monday if football was on?
Would I still be driving to the store high? Would I be getting high just to go to food shopping as it was more fun that way? Would I purposefully be getting high before long road trips to take the boredom out of them?
Given that I've been pulled over three times since BD and getting sober, I can't imagine how dangerous I was prior to BD behind the wheel. It's horrifying to ponder and I'm so thankful that BD didn't come after I hit a child in the street or got in an accident. In that sense her leaving was a huge gift and the wake up call I truly needed.
Stay strong Help.
You don't have to give up hope to detach. You give up letting everything she does or doesn't do (or seems to do or seems not to do) not get to you so much and not cause you to react toward her. You still care. You still have hope. But it is tempered by the reality that even if she decides to come back it will take lots of work and that your mutual decision to continue to stay M is the outcome of that process.
You're right that she has not taken steps to move this along. This may or may not mean anything, but at a minimum it means there is time, and that is your ally. That should give you hope even if she is not going slow because deep down she still thinks she might reconsider.
I'd also ask how much of your marriage were you having substance abuse issues? She may be giving you the time to see if the changes are for real. It will take a long time for her to trust that, and she is not going to give you hope if this is part of her agenda. Think about it as the scientist not wanting to interfere with the agenda because they want to know what the true results will be. You are doing well on this path, so just keep it up and focus on what you need to do. She will be more likely to respond positively if she sees you really focused on changing yourself for yourself rather suspecting by your attention on her of just doing it to win her back.
While you can't help marking dates and time in, they are totally arbitrary and unimportant. You don't know what it will take in terms of time for her to start changing her mind, so the dates really, really don't matter and will only make you frustrated if you dwell on them.
Just keep up the good work you have been doing.
Thanks as always for your wisdom As.
My W knew I had substance issues when we were dating. They got worse, got better, got worse, and throughout out M I "quit" numerous times for no longer than a month. I know that's a factor. She told me that she's seen me get clean before and it didn't stick. She also works at drug rehabs so knows the percentages working against me.
What's different about this time? I went to AA, I got a sponsor, I started working with an IC. I called my folks and told them I was in AA. I told my business partner, he and I would get high and have meetings... I told my clients, I told her parents, and am still working the program. What's really different is that I looked at what was beneath the problem, not just trying to find ways to manage it.
But you're right, she's seen 1,000 people get to the 6 month mark like I have and go back in headfirst.
She's also been hurt by it all and has said, it was never an issue of substance use, it was the issue of trust. I lied about how much I was using, and that everything was fine. I told her she was making things up when she wasn't. This is a multi headed monster.
I know that she also craved intimacy and that was completely missing on the level that she wanted it. I was the classic NMMMNG and thought that if she ever got closer to really knowing me she'd leave. Thus she was married to a ghost emotionally.
Time will tell. And I hear you on detaching. My goal for the week is do to all of the things I know that put my mind on my big picture goals. The ones that are going to lead me to have an amazing life whether she gets to be a part of it or not.
She also works at drug rehabs so knows the percentages working against me.
But you're right, she's seen 1,000 people get to the 6 month mark like I have and go back in headfirst.
That may work in your favor in the long run. Since your changing for you and not her, those changes will continue.
You say shes seen so many go back and backslide on those changes after the 6 month mark. That means she understands how difficult it can be. As time goes by and she continues to see those changes sticking they could prove to her how much effort you really are putting in to change yourself.
Detaching is difficult, but something you have to keep practicing and doing. Its separating yourself from the outcome of whats happening. You don't want to be too focused on only getting her back, but at the same time you don't want to stray to the other side and focus on not wanting her back at all. Avoid those actions that will push you too far either way and focus on your journey. Just keep moving forward and face what happens as it happens.
Thanks Fogg, I spoke with a counselor that works at the same rehab she does. He told me I'm doing everything right as far as getting and staying sober and that he has a ton of respect for how I've handled everything. Said he couldn't ask for anything more on my end. I'm hoping (detachedly) that this means she feels the same way. They talk, they work together, so she knows the work I've put into this if he does.
If there's an X-factor and she just wants to be with someone else - there's nothing I can do about that now. At least I know I've done everything in my power to build myself into the man that any woman would be happy to be with, let alone my W.
PP,
Okay...the MC session is just around the corner. Yeah, no pressure, right?
If I may, can I ask that you please let us know how you plan to address W during the first session? My initial thought is to pull out a piece of paper where you've written/typed out your thoughts and read them outloud to W as your whole body faces her with some eye contact.
PP
Those that relapse are abstaining not recovering. The stats on those recovering are as much as 60% clean after 5 years. The recovers accept and know this is a management issue and believe that is a life long journey. They work their steps and build their support structure, they know their triggers.
That's you.
V
V makes a great point.
I'd also add if the subject comes up, that it is super important to validate her concern. "I understand fully why you can't trust at this point. I know that trust is something that will take time. I hope you will give me that time, but I'm going to do this for myself regardless."
You might also look over the chapter on healing from infidelity. While you weren't unfaithful, seeing things from this perspective may help you. You will need to be prepared to open yourself up to scrutiny like an unfaithful spouse. Full transparency. Making sure there is nothing that would even appear as you possibly hiding anything. If she seems open to giving you that time, tell her that you will want to do this as part of the process.
If it were just substance abuse, it would be helpful, but the lying about it and covering it up are similar to the obstacles that prevent healing from infidelity. Taking a page out of that game book might help in your sitch.
PP,
Okay...the MC session is just around the corner. Yeah, no pressure, right?
If I may, can I ask that you please let us know how you plan to address W during the first session? My initial thought is to pull out a piece of paper where you've written/typed out your thoughts and read them outloud to W as your whole body faces her with some eye contact.
Hi Wonka, yep no pressure at all. I've been hitting the weight pile and the meditation mat with a passion so far today.
My plan is exactly as you stated minus the paper. I've been a public speaker for years and despise notes. I know what I want to say and don't want to look down at anything or have a reason to break eye contact.
My opener is a second or two of holding her eyes with mine to establish a connection, a deep breath and then with quiet strength validating first and foremost that I know how I've hurt her. Then going into how.
My counselor said this isn't a confession where I need to let her know every time I was out back with a joint but more about having her walk out thinking, "ok, he gets it. this isn't about his addictions, it's about how I felt being married to him while he had them."
V - you're right. I've got so many darn fail safes in place for my sobriety. From a sponsor, to an IC, to my friends and family, and speaking about it publicly. I have an online presence where I've talked about it so it's very real. Most importantly is myself. I've decided to live my life in a way that's congruent with the values I've had for years, nothing will change that.
Asitis - I read "After the Affair". I didn't have one, not even close. But in the relationship prior to ours, my wife moved to another country to be with a boyfriend, and found out two weeks later that he was cheating. That scarred her. One of her statements to me was always, "If you'll lie about getting high, you'll lie about everything else too."
I also view my addiction similar to an affair, it was often secretive, there for me when I was mad at her or upset with her, and didn't make me deal with what was happening in real time. If she went out of town I was relieved that I could just drink and smoke with impunity. I've read enough of the threads on this site to see the parallels.
Hi PigPen!
I just wanted to stop by and encourage you about your upcoming meeting. I feel you will do great.
Keep moving forward. Wishing you all the best!
Bob
Just checking in, reading your post. Your ready for this meeting.
Comparing your addiction to an affair is a powerful analogy.
PP,
After you tell W all of that ^^, you might want to show a bit vulnerability by stating that you did this out of fear of being the "real you" because you were afraid she'd reject you after 'seeing' you. Close it out by saying how wrong you were all along and you're determined to live your life clean along with your core values.
Perhaps invite her to go to the pin ceremony. No expectations.
I think you've got this...you've done your own research and talking to the right people in the field. You'll be just fine.
Thanks Wonka, I just finished a second session with addiction counselor to go over everything on Thurs. He agrees that it's ok to let her know how much fear I had over abandonment and rejection, that it's not justifying the behavior but letting her see that I was scared and hurt myself.
It's the truth, I used to "joke" with my W that she married me because I was the last man standing. She had rejected me over and over in my mind by dating my friends, online dating, and then dating me and breaking up with me numerous times. All the while knowing how I felt about her as I had taken the risk and told her my true feelings for her early on.
Just the exercise this week of putting myself in her shoes and feeling how she felt also put me square in my own shoes and I was honest with myself about how much fear I had through out my marriage that at any point I was going to be rejected.
Of course, I shared none of this with my W except through passive jokes like the one above, but that's how I felt. Had I been sober enough and centered enough I would have sat down with her and asked her questions about our early times and shared with her the pain that I still carried from them. Instead I buried them and they came out in bad behaviors and self protection.
I'm not justifying anything that I did, and know that there was a much more authentic way to be in an adult relationship. I know this now, and feel that part of this meeting on Thurs is going to be the first time that my W has ever seen this level of vulnerable authenticity.
Now just to GAL for the next two days I don't go crazy in my own skin.
I'm forecasting out a week. A week from now I'm going to have a lot of clarity. I'm going to feel like I was heard, I listened with an open heart, and have a clearer understanding of what's happening in my life, and what I want to do moving with it forward...
This afternoon I'm meeting with my business partner to continue negotiations on my new role in our business. He was not happy with my last proposal and this has led to a lot of tension in our office. Tension I could do without this week.
Tomorrow I meet with my WAW for the first time in three months and a counselor. I've been taking deep breaths for the last two weeks knowing that this meeting is coming. The combo of having these two back to back is one of the most intense feelings I've ever had to deal with.
Fortunately, I have not wanted to disappear into drinking, smoking pot, or numbing myself in any other way and have felt there are immense lessons to be gleaned from the pain and uncertainty of it all. I also believe with all my heart that both are necessary parts of my own individuation and growth. If I want big changes, I've got to be willing to go through growing pains.
Deep breaths, lots of them today. Trust in my higher power today. Lots of it. Gratitude for all of the positives today. Immense amounts of it. Gratitude for all of the advice and support I've gotten on the DB board. Worlds of it.
PP
PP I'm sending positive vibes your way. Catching up on your thread is always inspirational. Growing pains are good!
Best of luck on the MC session.
Just go in remembering that whatever she says, when you let it sit afterwards it may not be as good or bad as it struck you on first hearing it. I know that sometime my W will be really disrespectful, full of revisionist history, and hurt that she will lash out (see my meeting with her yesterday in my thread for an example). Felt crappy, initial reaction was, Oh sh*t, this is not where I was hoping things would go, she's made up her mind and isn't going to change it ever, yada, yada, yada.
After meeting, start processing the feelings. Realize, yes she is still really angry and wants to be heard and listened to. Wants to be acknowledged and respected. Damn, you did exactly that. Great job. This was something that needed to be done. It showed her exactly that I wasn't that old as_it_is that she is so angry. Came back the next morning with the "I've been thinking a lot about what you said yesterday, and ..." which built on that and really showed. Do I think that she will now start really reconsidering the sitch? Do I think we have it all out and she'll now be ready to move to stage 2? No.
Did what looked like a set-back really turn out to be one? No.
So, go in there knowing that you won't know in the moment whether what is going on is good or bad. Pay attention to your feelings, but don't let yourself get too reactive. Think, is what she is saying good or bac? "I don't know." OK, validate, ask questions, don't be bashful about feeling your own anger, as long as you keep it in I statements. Look at her and listen to her with curiosity. Give her your full attention without trying to think about what you are going to say.
You'll be stressed, but you can manage it with that I won't know how things are going until afterwards, if then, so no big deal.
Breathe. You're doing good work.
Thanks Teach and Asitis.
That's great advice As, I have no idea what the real meaning of anything is tomorrow. On Dif's thread we're seeing the power of seeds being planted. All I can hope is to do the same. Or even if not that, just to be heard. If my W hears me, sees me for who I am and still wants out down the road, at least I've put all of my cards on the table.
I've got the morning mapped out with meditation, a hard workout so I'm flush with endorphins, a review of my notes, and only a half cup of coffee.
Appreciate the support from you both.
Well, my intention about next week just fell short.
I just got an email from my W telling me she was backing out of our session tomorrow.
She sited that she felt obligated to be there for me and that was incongruent with her desire to close this chapter of her life and move on.
I'm slightly devastated.
Pigpen, I'm sorry to hear that. I know you have put lots of effort into this. There's not much you can do about your W's decision. She is where she is right now. You have come a long way and I think the main thing is to focus on your own path, your own progress and maintaining what you have achieved.
Yes, this is a setback, but try and see it as a stumble. Thank her for letting you know and go make the most of the session yourself. You can do this my friend.
(((Pigpen)))
PP,
Drats! That royally s*cks...I think it is FEAR that made her cancel MC.
Hey, it's not all lost....there's still time. In the meantime, you can send a brief response to W:
W-Thanks for letting me know. I am a bit disappointed with this news. I can understand your reluctance at some level. Have a good day. -PP
If I were you, I would work on a letter W. Begin your draft and work with the same counselors & couples that you just spoke with for feedback.
Then perhaps post the draft here for DB proof-reading.
Wait about a week, then send W the letter.
Thank you Toots and Wonka, I appreciate you both.
This was not what I was hoping for, but is very consistent on her end. She's terrified of dealing with this on the ground level and has been since day 1. I don't know if that's a fear of hurting me, or admitting to herself that this wasn't the right decision, or something all together different. I just know there has been reluctance to have a real conversation after BD.
From day 1, this has all been about a spiritual contract that has expired, and the Universe's decision for us.
I will respond as you recommend Wonka. Thank you very much.
PP
No. The fear is of going back to the same ol' broken M, being betrayed over and over with your lies.
Crap. I was just coming on here to wish you luck tomorrow and to say I would be thinking about you. Well. Wishing you that strength tonight. Feel for you good buddy.
This doesn't really mean anything in the long view, though.
No. The fear is of going back to the same ol' broken M, being betrayed over and over with your lies.
I hear this Wonka. Very true.
PP
Sorry to hear that. It seems if closure is what she really wanted at this point, she would have wanted to be there. I think it is fear that kept her away. Maybe she is not ready to believe in what you are doing even though you know it is real this time.
Keep doing what you are doing, your story will have a happy ending, you are doing amazing work.
Sorry about this. At some point she will probably realize that by pushing it away rather than facing it she has done the opposite of closing the door on this chapter.
If you look back, a few pages, you'll see a couple of us were sort of what do you hope to get if she isn't ready to come to the table yet, and were you probably can't cancel it now, but not really sure if it will be helpful at this stage. I'd not look at it as a failure, as she can't say "I tried, but it just wasn't going to work," like many of us have gotten from our Ss who put in a showing with the MC but weren't really there.
Give it time, keep doing what you need to work on for yourself, and see what happens. It is never a linear process, and what seems like a set back turns out not to have been (we usually can't see it in the moment). Still, these things can really bring one down.
Hang in there.
Keep doing what you are doing, your story will have a happy ending, you are doing amazing work.
Agree. If you look back only a short while ago, you were a mess (not a criticism, most of us arrive that way), and the positive changes are quite striking. You've stepped up to the plate and are doing the hard work that will produce good results, even if they aren't the results you set out hoping for.
Thank you everyone. I know this is only a small set back and I know that my own actions are the reason that I'm here. I can't fault her for protecting herself.
My path will continue. If anything I was in a much better place before believing this meeting was going to happen and have been relatively paralyzed on the GAL front, and moving on with my own life since it was set. When I came home from C.A. I had a ton of goals and ways I wanted to move my life forward. I'll be back at them tomorrow.
Appreciate the kindness and support here.
This seems like a deferral and I understand it too.
If WAW hasn't completed her healing then isn't it best to know this now rather than be further down the road?
There is no harm done by deferring, it gives you much more time.
Actions brave one are much more important.
V
Hi PigPen,
I just wanted to stop by and inform you that you are in my thoughts and prayers. I have not forgotten about you! How could I? I am sorry to hear about the set back (small or not) it's tough to handle.
Peace to you, my friend, and may each day be better than the previous. Hang in there! We all know you are trying so hard...we have your back.
Your friend,
Bob
PP wasn't expecting to read she backed out. You have been working so hard. Get back on your path and keep moving forward, it's just a step back.
Thanks everyone. I've had two days to really let it all sink in. I spoke yesterday with my W's cousin, he reached out to her about why she cancelled the meeting. He relayed to me that she stated she's in a really good place in her life, that our issues were less about my substance use, and more about the fact that we "speak different languages".
I'm not sure what that means, but as I wrote in my original post - this is the third time that my W has left me. Two while we were dating, and then BD. Oddly enough, since BD both of our lives have flourished in ways that we simply couldn't make them while we were together. It's hard to realize, but it's true. She left me and started the business she wanted to for our whole M. She left me and I got completely sober, changed my job to what I've always wanted to do, and found myself again.
This may sound like I'm giving up on my M, but I'm not. I'm simply not fighting for it any more. The rope has been dropped. I'm going to be fine with or without her and now I believe the real DB'ing begins.
For the three weeks leading up to this meeting, I was a mess. No real GAL'ing, no productivity at work, my business partner upset with me, me not feeling like I was back to the week after BD with the anxiety and depression. I felt like I was barely treading water. Today I got out of the pool and realized that the sun feels great on my skin.
This morning I hooked up with a literary coach and have a writing schedule set up. This afternoon I got back in the gym. This weekend is packed with fun plans. Next week I have a ton of things I actually want to accomplish at work. I'm not turning down any invitations for the subconscious fear that if I move on too much my W won't come back. I'm moving forward. With a passion.
There is truly a weight off of my shoulders now. If she wants back, she can call me. If she wants to talk, I'm here. Otherwise, I'm going to be busy creating the life that I've always wanted - one that's healthy, vibrant, sober, humble, congruent, overflowing with integrity and honesty, and let's me feel like I'm making a difference in the world. Just writing that makes me feel better than I have in weeks.
I love my W, love her to death. In fact, I can say with 100% truth that I love her enough to leave her be and let her find her own bliss without me. I'm going to do the same. I believe I finally understand what all the fuss is about "detachment".
Blessings to everyone on this board for guiding me this far in my journey. Let the real DB'ing begin.
Much love,
PP
PP,
Nice work. This is an incredible PMA! By no means is the journey over but kudos for coming to the realization that you can still be happy with or without your W. Very inspirational stuff. I'm going to reread it to get motivated myself.
PigPen, you're a serious inspiration. In my own thread just now I said I wanted to be a success story here, meaning I want reconciliation. But the truth is, I want what you seem to have achieved here... a life that is "healthy, vibrant, sober, humble, congruent, (and) overflowing with integrity and honesty."
You have painted the picture of a spouse only a fool would leave.
Hugs,
Dif
Struggles with relationships are often our best teachers and spur us to do something that allows growth. The growth isn't an indicator that the one should therefore ditch the relationship - as all relationships are work and have struggles that can stimulate growth - but one of the challenges is that if you get the opportunity to patch it back together it will be much stronger if you can figure out a way to allow both of you to continue to grow within the R. I hope you get that opportunity, but it is great that you can see what you have gained out of the hard struggle itself.
I agree that the cancellation of this meeting may have been a very good thing for you, both in terms of your well-being (you were driving yourself a bit nuts) and your ability to detach and be effective at DBing. It was fairly clear that your W was not really ready to work on things, and the MC was premature. I'm hopeful that her cancelling turns out to be a blessing in disguise no matter who difficult it was to have her do that.
Keep strong and good work!
PP
Now the standing begins. Now can you can try the lighthouse strategy that has worked for so many.
I still hold the view that WAW should see you achieve a milestone pin.
V
PP,
Just wanted to check in and see how you are doing. How is the GAL coming along?
BW
PP, yesterday at the gym I had DLs on the schedule. The gym was full of teenage boys and I was waiting on one guy to finish with the power cage. He finally did and started to unload his bar. I told him no need to unload it, I'd just use it that way. That was fun.
Wishing you a good evening :-)
Thank you for checking in on me and for everyone's comments. I haven't been on my own thread in a while.
Dif - you made me tear up! First time in a long while that it's been out of happiness. Thank you immensely.
As - yep, I've learned a lifetime's worth of lessons in the last six months. Being just fine in my own skin is the biggest one. Not sure if the show is worth the price of admission just yet, but I can't argue with sobriety and self respect.
BW - my GAL is coming along, I've been enjoying myself and although I still think of my W, I'm truly making decisions and plans as if she were never coming back. This has been huge and as hard as it is, has brought peace to my life. I'm assuming she's done. She's told me she's done. She's told her family she's done. I'm listening and moving towards an amazing life that I'd love for her to be a part of, but it's going to be amazing either way.
Today was a big day. I have been going back and forth with my business partner about the direction and future of our business. He loves what we do and wants me equally committed. I love what we do but also want to do other things too. Today I told him that I would be leaving our business in January and pursuing my own interests. I have his blessing, he has mine.
I believe this is part of the "why" behind everything happening this year. I need to be on my own, prove to myself that I can be on my own, and give the world the unique message that I've been stifling for years for fear of upsetting him or taking the chance that I couldn't with a W and the desire to start a family.
Having the stress of my separation and upset in our business at the same time was more than I could bare on most days - I felt like I was losing both of my families. Truly when one stress let up, the other swooped in. I've been one warn out PP for the last month especially. Tonight I believe I will sleep.
Although I have fear of the future, I'm excited about the possibilities for the first time in a long time. I helped build an amazing business in a town where I knew no one, and in an industry that I had no experience. I did so stoned, drinking too much, and living on adrenaline, caffeine and no sleep. Now I get to take all of that knowledge and understanding and craft my own business, but do it completely sober and present. The fear is only matched by my excitement and drive to make a difference in people's lives. Doing so would make all of the pain of my separation worth while so I have on heck of a motivation.
No news on the W front unfortunately. Although now I'm not worried about upsetting her or pushing her buttons or afraid she's going to leave me again. I have reached out and asked to have our dog back for a few months, but haven't heard back.
Again, I thank everyone here for their support, we all say it, but it truly does mean the world to me and has often times been the reason I could get out of bed on some days.
Big hugs,
PP
PP, yesterday at the gym I had DLs on the schedule. The gym was full of teenage boys and I was waiting on one guy to finish with the power cage. He finally did and started to unload his bar. I told him no need to unload it, I'd just use it that way. That was fun.
Wishing you a good evening :-)
This makes me very happy Sunny! Show them who's who in there.
How is your pull up work coming along?
I saw on another thread you needed a hug so
(((((((Hugs))))))))
Big ones and squill ions of them. I am as excited as you are about your new business. Do tell me more, what are your goals for it? What steps will you put in place to be ready for January?
V
PP,
Hey have you given any thought to my suggestion of writing a letter to W?
PP,
Hey have you given any thought to my suggestion of writing a letter to W?
Hi Wonka,
I'd like to write my W a letter. I've needed this week to work on my business relationship and get that sorted out. And then get some rest. All of this has me sleeping about 4 hours a night unfortunately.
I can start on the letter on Sunday of this week. Any thoughts to share on it?
Sketch it out first? I'll type it out first until I can hand write it.
Thanks again.
PP
New thread time I gather....