http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2568442&page=11My antiversary is in 4 days. First off I want to thank everyone that has been so supportive along the way. I truly can't name you all, you've all been important to me more than you know.
When I think about who I was a year ago I am so grateful for this experience. I hope that all of you early in your situations hear me on this. I was NOT my best self, and I was in more pain than I can describe. If you put in the work your life will improve and you will feel better. No, I don't think D was necessary for this growth to be possible. That wasn't my choice, and while I'm still sad about the impact to the family, I don't have room in my heart to cling to hurts and judgments about it.
Now in month 12 I am very detached. STBX is still in my dreams on occasion with the feelings of fear being conjured (fear of what was lost, fear of judgment, those seemed to be the context). But they aren't nightmares. Just dreams.
I've learned that loving and trusting someone doesn't make them worthy of that trust. This is so cool. For a while I was really jaded, and am still a bit snake bit. You read enough of these boards and you can form the picture that everyone is just out there having emotional affairs, cheating, medicating, and leading double lives. But then, some of the people on this forum are truly inspirational. There are people that are dealing with their problems head on, finding their best self, and showing tremendous character and commitment even while having some adventurous fun in the sun. It's you all that remind me every day that a good marriage is still possible.
The funny thing about that is I've been growing in confidence about what I offer in a future R. My two fears have always been "why would a woman want me" and "she will be disgusted by my desires". At this point, though, I think I'll be much more selective of who I'm interested in. I am not going to jump at the first girl that gives me a pretty smile (even if my emotions are going crazy and my body is too). I will be much slower and more careful, and know what I am looking for now. To be honest in the past is I have accepted and clung to any woman that showed me interest. By not being so desperate and having some standards I see that I am valuing myself more. As for my desires, I have reflected on them long and hard. Some don't have a place in my life and that's fine. Some may not in the future. But what remains I'm ok with. I've reflected on my IC/DB's coaching (questioning my motivation, whether it was making me and those around feel better about who we are, if I was ashamed of it and wanted to hide it, and so on) and I'm feeling more acceptance about my desire as well. I no longer feel I'm broken. Just this is who I am, some people won't be a match, but I think someone will.
And while I have standards, I don't think they're impossibly high or delusional. I understand M will have ups and downs, stretches of years that would drive most people to become WAS's, and eventually will result in the loss of everything through failing health, etc. Other than a mature woman who doesn't have hardlined incompatible views I'm pretty openminded and flexible. I'm not expecting a perfect M to make my life happy. But I do think I'm getting closer to ready for an adult relationship, and I think I'm closer to ready to find someone that can do the same.
And I've got much more time to figure it out. Instead of being desperate to be in another R, I'm excited I have more time to keep pressing. So the plan is finalize the D over the next few months, kill it at work, upgrade the car, get a house in a year that's big enough for my family, get in good shape and a nice rhythm keeping the house clean and running my life...then in a year and a half I'll be ready to open the door to someone else. I won't be rushed, I'll just dip a toe in the water. Who knows, maybe I'll do that slightly sooner, but I do believe in the "1 year after the ink is dried" rule and see a lot of value in that for me. I feel if I'm doing well there's no rush, if I'm rushed I'm probably not ready.
Again, I'm so appreciative for the peaceful spot I'm in. I compare this thread to the start of another thread from month 4-5 after BD where my recap included a list of negative behavior from WAS. Ha. I don't even know that is on my radar today. Thank you detachment. For all of you in pain I truly send you goodwill and hope you can get to a safe and comfortable spot soon. Maybe when you read my recap it causes you pain, I'm talking about D, future Rs, moving, etc. But just in case it doesn't come through I want to make it really clear that while I'm not saying "good riddance" to my old M, I'm just focused on my road, what I can control, and am very excited about the journey I'm on. It's been a life saver. God bless you all.
PS- GAL today, I'm reading in bed, playing chess, posting online, then I'll have a nice breakfast, get a massage, and head down to my hometown to see a friend I haven't in a year and eat at my favorite restaurant I haven't been to forever, then we're going to play a poker game into the wee hours and I'll crash at his flat. I've been given many good things, nice to appreciate them and it's cool that GAL is coming so naturally. Later!
i love you man. have a good day. I will write more when i get the chance. just wanted to let you know. you turned me around, and I owe you my (life) happiness
Good recap Zues. 1 year is a long time to be going through what you have but I think you see the value it has added to your life. We may not have asked for this to happen but we made the most of it in every way possible. Be proud of what you have accomplished.
Good luck with tomorrow, remember, its just another day.
Thank you very much for posting that Zues and for all of the advice and energy you pour into people's threads, mine included.
Your honesty, willingness to attack your issues head on, and openness about your own shortcomings is truly inspiring. I have pieces of some of your posts copied and pasted into my "this is important stuff, try to read it every week" document. It's a collection of wisdom from people on this board, and other places about making the best of myself.
I too was not my best me in my M and had a lot of the same challenges that you did. You've truly led me down the path to healing my underlying wounds and releasing myself from addictions. You're a blessing my friend.
The post you wrote also gives me hope that if I put the same effort into self improvement that you have I too can end up in a place where I'm ok with everything. Not over it, or disappointed that it needed to happen to shake me up, but ok with it.
May your future continue to be bright, I have a feeling that you're going to find someone out there that's done an equal amount of work on herself and you'll make one hell of a team when the time is right.
My best to you.
PP
Wow, great intro to your new thread, Zues. Especially since - as someone on pretty much the same timeline as you - I absolutely agree with it!
What a wonderful post to read dear Zeus. Can't wait until I'm as far along as you. I think you're a guiding light to many here and we all feel just as fortunate to have you post on our treads as you've been to the ones that helped you along the way.
No matter how all our stitches ends, we will let time heal us and I hope as you that in my next R I will know more about myself and what I what and what I have to offer another man.
All my best to you Zeus, GAL away and I'll try to do the same!
Big hug!!
FOUR DREAMS AND A LUNCH EXCHANGE:
Dreams (over the last three nights)
-Night one: I'm in bed with STBX. I have intense feelings of love. I reach to her, grab her, but she pulls away. I realize we aren't together and am heartbroken.
-Night two: Don't remember the context, but it culminated with me screaming "I DON'T WANT THIS, IT'S NOT OK WITH ME, NONE OF THIS IS OK WITH ME"
Night three (just now): Part 1- I find myself screaming at my sister who is friends with STBX "You'll never understand how much this hurt me".
Part 2- I meet a woman who lives this weird life where she has toys that she pretends are her family and locks them into cages. One toy is her "dad". One toy is her "mom". And she has her toys that are her "children". They are strange toys, that roll around by themselves on wheels and have strange faces. Finally I understand something. These aren't toys. They were really her family once, but she lobotomized them and operated on them until they were just shells of people stuffed into toy parts. I try to break the kids out and she tries to do the same to me and calls her attack dogs on me, but I escape. Then I find out it was all a movie I was watching on TV.
Lunch meeting:
I ate lunch with my dad yesterday. He was talking about a comedian who's sketch was called something like "I'm going to die alone and I'm ok with that". He said the comedian referenced people who's life goal was "just to have someone to grow old with". He thought it was a sad life goal, because there's a lot of life to live before you're old, and life doesn't work out the way you want, and all of these other reasons. But it felt very condescending towards with this life goal, and just people in general that had foolish goals. I started by voicing my difference of opinion with my dad, but he was very stubborn and kept trying to make his point until I found myself getting angry and asked to change the subject, then he laughed that I was getting escalated and I got further upset that he thought it was funny that I was getting escalated. We were done with lunch so I hugged him goodbye and left, but it took me a while to calm down. I didn't realize until later that I MYSELF was someone that had the life goal of growing old with someone, and it had just been shattered, and I am still dealing with intense grief at it's loss, and that I feel people that make light of that goal are perpetrators that destroy people's lives and families.
First off, if you haven't read my post above, please do. I wanted to jot that down before it all disappeared.
Now then, thank you all for your support! Yes, the antiversary has come and gone. I'm grateful that I have some distance from the wreckage of the crashed plane (as my IC says). I survived the crash, I'm safely away from the flames...but my adrenaline is still pumping, and I'm still shaken up a little.
During the day I'm usually ok. I still do my share of sorting through things, but it's probably about 10-20 minutes a day. A couple runs through the hamster wheels of questions that don't go anywhere, like "why", and "will she ever..." And then occasionally with triggers, or when I have to deal with plans for mediation, etc.
Clearly by night I am starting to vent some feelings. Maybe they're getting too weak for them to control me by day, so they are leaking into my dreams? I do know from study that while the meaning of dreams can be disguised by symbolism, the EMOTIONS in dreams are always very real translations from how you feel in you're waking life. Angry. Hurt. Scared. This doesn't bother me. I feel this is still kinda normal.
As for triggers, I have a ways to go. The exchange with my dad above is one example. Another is that I have low tolerance for people who initiated a D. Two of my sisters initiated a D. One is visiting today, I haven't seen her in 4 years. I don't know any of the circumstances or reasons why she got a divorce, but I am very put off and almost don't want her part of my life because of it. Like I feel I don't want any of these "divorcers" in my life because they all just look like monsters right now. PSTD or something.
Thanks for listening DBland. It's an honor to have your support. Clearly I have a long way to go as the emotions are still stronger than I usually realize. See, 99% of the time I can't tell anymore. Just dreams and triggers. But I want to keep sorting through stuff, otherwise I could just try to bury it and pretend. But I want to be healthy, because I want to be a good partner so I can find someone to grow old with someday
That said, I truly have been blessed with more peace than ever before. It's not like I wasn't hurt and angry during my M! In many ways this is the best I've ever been. So again, thank you so much for the help along the way. Here's to another good year!
I've have had feelings seep through in in the past also. The most recent one I can remember me and W were in reversed situation. I was the one in an A with some woman walking around a house that W also lived in. W was going on with life like nothing was going on. Basically she was focusing on herself and I was the one making all the mistakes. I realized the feelings I had were of confusion for what I was doing but I wasn't ready to give it up even thought I could see it was wrong. I've wondered if this was me trying to understand how I might appear to W. I've put myself in my W's shoes a great deal with this and while its chaotic at times its also let me see her as less of a monster.
I've had others where we were just interacting like we were still M. Mostly the dreams I've had are ones where she comes to me and realizes the mistake shes made and wants to make the M work, those are the hardest. They seem to come and go every few weeks/months.
I can understand your frustration with people who initiate a D but it might be good to try and view them in a different way. Put yourself in their shoes and try to empathize with them. It helps to understand when life piles enough [censored] on someone they are capable of almost anything. It just takes the right conditions and us all are capable of the same actions. We can sit here and say we wouldn't be the ones to initiate a D, but until we were put through the same [censored] we just don't know. I think we all have a limit that would make us cross that line, some just have a much lower threshold.
They are human just as we are and capable of making mistakes. Not being strong enough or have the tools capable of repairing a M that may have severe issues. They are also susceptible to selfish behavior just like we are, and sometimes it gets the best of them. This doesn't excuse the behavior, just lets us understand its human nature to make mistakes. Even when looking at A's I realize I cant say what I would and wouldn't do. If I was that broken and someone started making me feel valuable for once, I realize it would be possible for me to have one. Not saying I would seek one out, but again I believe there are certain circumstances where anyone could be sucked into the temptation.
Happy Fathers' Day, Zues!
Great post Fogg. Empathy is the best medicine for us all.
Happy Father's Day Z, hope you're having a great day.
PP
Happy Father's Day, Zues!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you! Happy father's day to all you fathers out there, and to all the mothers out there thank you for all you do EVERY day.
Good time with family today. I am reading to them and they actually like the book. It is so nice to read to them. It's so cool they are at ages that we can read more than Dick and Jane.
Fogg, thanks for the reply. You know- I've been struggling this week. Maybe it was the 1 year thing, but I've gone through a lot of emotions. I've come up with a couple of theories about this.
1- I think we can only handle so much suffering. That's why we use denial in the beginning and all of that, to regulate how much sheer pain comes at us. But for something like a D, I think the reason it takes years is partly because it's so much we have to spread it out over a long time. That and because it impacts us in so many ways, some that we don't even realize until a year down the road. And also because the permanence of loss not really setting in until the dust settles and things don't go 'back to normal. But the idea of grieving other things leads me to the second difficulty.
2. At some point we're suffering from the D because we have to deal with our own flaws. When I was in the M I wasn't working on myself, I was hoping my spouse would 'accept me the way I was' and I could just stay the same. Now I have to grow, not in an effort to attract her back or to be worthy of love in the future, but simply because if I don't I will cause a lot more suffering for myself. I had and still have (and always will) faulty ways of looking at the world that cause me pain. Now is the time to really sort through those ineffective outlooks and try to find some peace. Oh, I know perfection isn't achievable, but there are milestones I'm looking for like being healthy and happy on my own, etc.
So all in, it was a reminder that I'm not all better both in that there's more pain in the days ahead, and that some of it is from my own outlooks, not from the D.
The good news is that the pain is so much more manageable that even these flair ups are child's play compared to BD. And I have a lot of hope that I'll have good days again in the future. At this point I'm more concerned about all of y'all.
So those new to DB forums, please be strong, breathe deep, relax, get good support, and get ready to do some hard work. There is a way out of the pain, I promise.
Love and hope Zues xxxx JB
Thanks Jelly.
Wow, what a tough week. I went to D8's gymnastics tonight. Sat near my other kids which means proximity to STBX.
It's so strange to see. I'm doing great with the kids, and they love me and love spending time with me. They love their mom. Us all together. And STBX could've chosen to remain my wife, and we'd have a family. Instead she has chosen this other path, and I hug my kids and drive home to my apartment, and we negotiate through the fallout of our lives together.
Fogg, the hard part about empathizing is that I actually couldn't do something like this. It's like those people that shake a baby that gets killed. I can empathize with being angry. I can empathize with losing your temper and getting carried away. But when it comes to taking the life of a baby, I guess I just hit this inner barrier that doesn't understand how that line could be crossed. Same with D. I get resentment. I get dysfunction at times. But D? I just go blank because I can't comprehend that choice.
Anyway, my mom was there, and we went to dinner afterwards. She tells me that she believes that this is what STBX always wanted. To raise the kids until they were in school, then to be out of her M. I know the forums have been skeptical about this, but you don't know STBX. I could've been a better H, but I don't know I could've stopped this from happening.
But to Fogg's point, I've been searching for empathy. I am not diagnosing her from a sense of 'what a terrible person, thank goodness I'm rid of her' because that's not what I feel...I feel a devastating loss that we weren't capable of making a M work. But I do feel compassion because I realize that she was deeply wounded in her life (as we all are), maybe in her childhood through her parents divorce, maybe through our M because of me. But I see that she simply didn't have tools to navigate through this. The resentment. The feelings of losing her identity in the M. The dysfunction. All true, and while maybe not insurmountable with two people that are committed to making it through, they were insurmountable for her. It doesn't mean she's not suffering the loss too, and that she won't be trapped by her own warped outlooks and rationalizations.
Tonight I feel truly sad that this person I took into my heart has lost me and our family every bit as much as I lost her and my family. Maybe it meant more to me. Maybe not, and she just couldn't go on. But I can see how much she must be suffering too. I mean, she's medicating like crazy with booze, pot, other men, and social media. I'm sure she's reeling and trying to find her way as we all are.
Mindreading in a lot of ways, projecting, diagnosing, all of that. But my main point is it helps me to overcome my pain and anger to think of her as a flawed human that made a destructive choice and is suffering from it. Because who can't empathize with that? I think we can all say the same about ourselves. So regardless of whether or not I could've ever done the same thing, I can accept there is pain and suffering in the world that we all bring on ourselves.
My job is to address the pain and suffering I bring on myself. DB coach appointment tomorrow. I wish I could talk to her every day. Sometimes I feel like there's not enough time left in my life for the amount of coaching it would take. I just long for a deep and lasting acceptance. I have reached a point where I can get to acceptance with some effort, but it doesn't come naturally, and it is fleeting. It's like I have to work hard to maintain the mindset, and if I wear down I'll default back to suffering again. I think I'm just tired. But it is a tough road to walk. Maybe you guys get it.
Thanks Jelly.
Wow, what a tough week. I went to D8's gymnastics tonight. Sat near my other kids which means proximity to STBX.
It's so strange to see. I'm doing great with the kids, and they love me and love spending time with me. They love their mom. Us all together. And STBX could've chosen to remain my wife, and we'd have a family. Instead she has chosen this other path, and I hug my kids and drive home to my apartment, and we negotiate through the fallout of our lives together.
Fogg, the hard part about empathizing is that I actually couldn't do something like this. It's like those people that shake a baby that gets killed. I can empathize with being angry. I can empathize with losing your temper and getting carried away. But when it comes to taking the life of a baby, I guess I just hit this inner barrier that doesn't understand how that line could be crossed. Same with D. I get resentment. I get dysfunction at times. But D? I just go blank because I can't comprehend that choice.
I get what your saying but I'm not sure I agree comppletely. There was a time when I said I could never do what my W has done either, all that destruction to a family to pursue a selfish desire. I still hope I wouldn't do that if I were in that position but the fact is I will never know until I am tested in that way. I now believe there exists a set of conditions in which anyone is capable of anything, some of us just have much lower threshold to what it would take. Maybe you would never do what your W would do this easily, but its still possible it could happen. Say your W came home every day and took a baseball bat and knocked you out and then got drunk and passed out leaving your children to fend for themselves. In that case you would likely see D as an option, eventually. To her, emotional needs being unmet both ways and no tools to fix it is that baseball bat every day. Not saying its right or even fair, just how we humans operate at times.
We don't always set out with the intent to cross certain lines, it just happens when we let our emotions take over control.Anyway, my mom was there, and we went to dinner afterwards. She tells me that she believes that this is what STBX always wanted. To raise the kids until they were in school, then to be out of her M. I know the forums have been skeptical about this, but you don't know STBX. I could've been a better H, but I don't know I could've stopped this from happening.
Family tend to say what they think will make us feel better in the moment so I wouldn't think too much about it. Its possible this was your W's intent all along, who knows. If it was, you got some awesome kids out of the deal and are free to move on and find someone that deserves your love now. If not, then things just played out how they played out and you still got awesome kids and personal growth.
One thing that helps me get through this at times is seeing it as a blessing. Don't look at it like your future with your W and family was taken away. Look at it as this experience and personal growth has prepared you for the future you were always meant to have. It could still be with W, who knows. I know I'm only into this 6 months now where your twice that time. I'm sure ill experiences changes in mindset later, but this is whats helping me now. But to Fogg's point, I've been searching for empathy. I am not diagnosing her from a sense of 'what a terrible person, thank goodness I'm rid of her' because that's not what I feel...I feel a devastating loss that we weren't capable of making a M work. But I do feel compassion because I realize that she was deeply wounded in her life (as we all are), maybe in her childhood through her parents divorce, maybe through our M because of me. But I see that she simply didn't have tools to navigate through this. The resentment. The feelings of losing her identity in the M. The dysfunction. All true, and while maybe not insurmountable with two people that are committed to making it through, they were insurmountable for her. It doesn't mean she's not suffering the loss too, and that she won't be trapped by her own warped outlooks and rationalizations.
This is all good. I think you have empathy for her already, the pain of what you could have is just getting in the way. I was stuck on the future me and W could have if we both tried for a long time, still am. My IC told me to stop focusing so much on a future that has no grounds in reality. Its possible that future could exist, but its also possible that future could never have existed. We don't know for sure, so why cling to either possibility. Tonight I feel truly sad that this person I took into my heart has lost me and our family every bit as much as I lost her and my family. Maybe it meant more to me. Maybe not, and she just couldn't go on. But I can see how much she must be suffering too. I mean, she's medicating like crazy with booze, pot, other men, and social media. I'm sure she's reeling and trying to find her way as we all are.
My W is self medicating with almost all of those things also. For me, that's exactly what I see the situation as. Shes trying to find herself and has to cross off all the wrong ways before she can see the right way. Maybe that will happen, maybe not. We just have to remember now matter how much damage they do to us, this isn't about us. Its about them. Mindreading in a lot of ways, projecting, diagnosing, all of that. But my main point is it helps me to overcome my pain and anger to think of her as a flawed human that made a destructive choice and is suffering from it. Because who can't empathize with that? I think we can all say the same about ourselves. So regardless of whether or not I could've ever done the same thing, I can accept there is pain and suffering in the world that we all bring on ourselves.
My job is to address the pain and suffering I bring on myself. DB coach appointment tomorrow. I wish I could talk to her every day. Sometimes I feel like there's not enough time left in my life for the amount of coaching it would take. I just long for a deep and lasting acceptance. I have reached a point where I can get to acceptance with some effort, but it doesn't come naturally, and it is fleeting. It's like I have to work hard to maintain the mindset, and if I wear down I'll default back to suffering again. I think I'm just tired. But it is a tough road to walk. Maybe you guys get it.
I get it, this process wears on us in ways we never imagined. I cant imagine what another 6 months will do to me, much less years. You do a great job working on yourself and leaving W to her journey. That acceptance and fighting for it is also natural, we don't change overnight so we have to continue to fight for those changes that feel unnatural to take hold. Fake it until you make it.
I get what your saying but I'm not sure I agree comppletely. There was a time when I said I could never do what my W has done either, all that destruction to a family to pursue a selfish desire. I still hope I wouldn't do that if I were in that position but the fact is I will never know until I am tested in that way. I now believe there exists a set of conditions in which anyone is capable of anything, some of us just have much lower threshold to what it would take. Maybe you would never do what your W would do this easily, but its still possible it could happen. Say your W came home every day and took a baseball bat and knocked you out and then got drunk and passed out leaving your children to fend for themselves. In that case you would likely see D as an option, eventually. To her, emotional needs being unmet both ways and no tools to fix it is that baseball bat every day. Not saying its right or even fair, just how we humans operate at times.
Fogg, I love you but I strenuously object. I've heard this line of reasoning before and it doesn't work.
If someone broke into my home and attacked my kids, yes, I could kill. If I was on a desert island with another woman and 10 years went by, yes, I might break my marital vows.
Inventing unimaginably horrible extremes hypothetically and then using it as an argument that we're all cheaters and murderers, it's just a matter of when we pull the trigger...that doesn't jive with me. I am willing to believe that you might be unsure at your breaking point, but don't project that onto me. I can assure you that I will not EVER cheat on my partner, nor would I have ever have abandoned my M.
I do appreciate your participation and am totally fine hearing your outlook. Regardless of whether I would've ever done the same, whether it is helpful to dwell on that is another story. I spoke with DB coach today, let her know that it was just not coming easy. That every day I get to a place of peace, but it takes daily effort. And that sometimes I am exhausted and just fall back into the pain. She told me that when we go through crisis we have to "live intentionally". That usually in life we can kind of auto-pilot our way through, and that doesn't work at times like these.
She made the point that it's when we're suffering that we show our true character and faith. And when things are going good there's no reason to fear the ground falling out from under our feet again- because it WILL. So no reason to be afraid, just know it will happen and trust in our faith and our character to lead through. And that we are being put through this to be strengthened to be the people God wants us to be.
I can get on board with that. And you know what- it's ok. I'm getting through. Honestly I'm surprised at how well most of the time, so I keep being appreciative that I have been given a path. It's not downhill with a tail wind, it's not the path I would've chosen, but it's a path, and it has it's own challenges and rewards and adventures and scenic views. So I'll just trudge on and try to find a good tune to whistle.
Take care all!
Zeus,
If someone broke into my home and attacked my kids, yes, I could kill. If I was on a desert island with another woman and 10 years went by, yes, I might break my marital vows.
Do you really believe this?? 10 years on an island with a woman WITHOUT any action??!!!
skeptical eyebrow raise
All it takes is for a woman to rub your upper thigh...and you'll melt like Frosty on, well, a desert island.
I respect what your saying Zeus, and I'm bad at getting my point across the way I intend. I'm sure this caused issues with conversing with W also, lol.
I wasn't trying to project my own insecurities onto you, and I apologize if I did. I don't believe I could abandon my M or cheat on my W either and I do hope my faith and integrity would guide me through a situation like that. However, I just don't know for sure, I've never been tested in that way. Something my IC told me early on was its easy to say you have morals when things are going good, but those morals are really tested when things are going bad. So logically I have to accept since I've never been tested in this way I cant say with 100% accuracy what I would and wouldn't do.
That keeps me grounded and humble when comparing my morals to my W's. Shes failed hers right now but I cant say I wouldn't do the same if life shits all over and breaks me.
"And that we are being put through this to be strengthened to be the people God wants us to be."
Yes^^ I believe W was put through this to be strengthened also. If she accepts that strength/growth is yet to be determined.
But we can agree to disagree on the specifics, I'm fine with that. We all use whatever tools and thoughts to cope in the way we need, this is mine
Zeus,
If someone broke into my home and attacked my kids, yes, I could kill. If I was on a desert island with another woman and 10 years went by, yes, I might break my marital vows.
Do you really believe this?? 10 years on an island with a woman WITHOUT any action??!!!
skeptical eyebrow raiseAll it takes is for a woman to rub your upper thigh...and you'll melt like Frosty on, well, a desert island.
Z, I'm with Wonka on this one. LOL
Wonka, you have quite a way with words.
(a gigantic smile on my face)Hang in there Zues!
Bob
Bob,
OMG...I had to have a crash course on the "rubbing a man's thigh" thing with a transgendered man who tutored me!
Zeus,
If someone broke into my home and attacked my kids, yes, I could kill. If I was on a desert island with another woman and 10 years went by, yes, I might break my marital vows.
Do you really believe this?? 10 years on an island with a woman WITHOUT any action??!!!
skeptical eyebrow raiseAll it takes is for a woman to rub your upper thigh...and you'll melt like Frosty on, well, a desert island.
Z, I'm with Wonka on this one. LOL
Wonka, you have quite a way with words.
(a gigantic smile on my face)Hang in there Zues!
Bob
I didn't understand how men can go all agog over a woman rubbing their upper thigh. I've done it a few times with some good male work colleagues (straight)--more like pats on thigh and I thought their reactions were a bit odd.
That was until a transgendered man pulled me aside and explained how it felt from his POV. Ahhhh...light bulb moment!
Suffice to say, I've stopped that altogether with men. Full STOP.
Phew.
I read this week that it isn't important whether beliefs are right or wrong, it's important whether they're useful or not.
My belief that I will never waiver from my vows has been useful in that I never did. We've established no one can win a debate of what I might do someday in the future. But I don't think my commitments and conviction to being faithful is a negative thing. And thinking of my commitment as circumstantial just seems to lead down a road of justifying destructive behavior.
On the other hand, if that carries with it judgment and resentment for others that's not healthy. I think the rash of people telling me I too would break my vows is really trying to say that seeing ourselves and others as all flawed and vulnerable is useful in the sense of finding compassion and forgiveness for our WAS's, which in the end is healthy for ourselves.
Is it possible to benefit from the first belief, while benefiting from the conflicting second outlook? I don't see why not.
This is good stuff Zeus. I am struggling with a bit of a "superiority complex" regarding my sitch, too. It's not serving me very well. Betsey, I think, has written about letting go of "righteous anger". Maybe I am "right" on this thing, but I know I made lots of other mistakes.
Anyway, the fact that you are willing to rethink your stance and see things in a new way speaks so highly of your growth. Well done!
good discussion.
Z - i know what you mean about getting tired. it feels like we have to live actively as your DB coach says - all the time - and it is draining. I remember back to the M, and although I am the same person, I am not at all. If I had've spent even a fraction of the energy I do now on "actively" living, things would be different now I am sure.
I am skeptical that I ever will live "comfortably" again. I am even scared of it. I am confident though that we will find a balance.
Thinking back, 3 years ago I could've engaged an A. I absolutely didn't even consider it at the time. But in hindsight, the offer was there. Sort of like my baby screamed for hours, but I never even contemplated shaking her, I held her closer and tried harder. In agreement with Fogg though - there was never an obvious line that they crossed. Circumstances being what they were at the time, things just worked out this way. So maybe we can't divide people into two camps so easily as those that would and those that wouldn't.
That said ^^^, back in January I found emails sent in October to my W at work. On his part they were obviously flirtatious. Now my W might have genuinely not seen this (given her Aspergers like interpretation of social interaction discussed on my thread) - so it is, and it is now anyway irrelevant. But the other week when we had that discussion before the airport I said to her - "When you reach that point where a colleague is obviously flirting, however flattered you are, that is the point when you should be mature and sensible enough to say I am a M woman with children."
I get bombed with inspirational posters on FB. I read one today that was quit good:
"I never lose. I either win or I learn."
Wonka,
I think most men are agog seeing a woman rubbing their own upper thigh. They go crazy when it is theirs.
-Py
Fogg, I love you but I strenuously object.
Are you quoting "A Few Good Men"?
-PM
I read this week that it isn't important whether beliefs are right or wrong, it's important whether they're useful or not.
My belief that I will never waiver from my vows has been useful in that I never did. We've established no one can win a debate of what I might do someday in the future. But I don't think my commitments and conviction to being faithful is a negative thing. And thinking of my commitment as circumstantial just seems to lead down a road of justifying destructive behavior.
On the other hand, if that carries with it judgment and resentment for others that's not healthy. I think the rash of people telling me I too would break my vows is really trying to say that seeing ourselves and others as all flawed and vulnerable is useful in the sense of finding compassion and forgiveness for our WAS's, which in the end is healthy for ourselves.
Is it possible to benefit from the first belief, while benefiting from the conflicting second outlook? I don't see why not.
The bolded disheartens me, and is a part of why I ceased activity here on this forum.
Stand firm in your convictions. Be the man you are called to be and disregard anyone telling you anything different.
-PM
Dude what's the deal with h2++ ? Maybe I'm just thick.
Patient man- yes, I was channeling a few good men. Great dialogue in that movie.
As for standing firm, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I was going to joke about saying "I'm standing firm on the fact that the man I want to be doesn't stay firm so I'll just disregard your feedback", but the humor doesn't always come across so I'll just say I appreciate it. I do have a hard time. I am a nice guy and don't like conflict, and I want to find common ground with others. I really thought that was what I was doing, agreeing to what I could without picking a fight that didn't matter, but I DEFINITELY see your point and wrestled with my reply.
The good news is these forums give us a chance to practice our interpersonal relationships and get feedback on our tone and outlook at the same time. My DB coach just yesterday told me to "represent myself" in a couple of situations. It's not easy, but it's a journey.
Py- H2 is a square on the chessboard, usually the wing pawn in front of black's castled king. If you search 'Chessnetwork bullet' on youtube you can watch him play and commentate bullet chess, which is 60 second speed chess. It's EPIC. I've watched hundreds of hours over the years and have learned a lot and had a ton of fun. But one time he won several games in a row by delivering checkmate on H2, and he was shouting "H2, you gotta watch out for H2". Then he said he should make a T-shirt that just said "H2" on it to see who caught the reference.
I'm a game geek at heart. I love them. All of them. Pool. Chess. Poker. Cribbage. Backgammon. You name it, I love it. I am a 'nice guy', super soft and sensitive, and I take all of my hurts and pains, and then when I play a game I turn into the incredible hulk and want to crush souls until my opponent can't even walk down the game aisle at Target without having PTSD flashbacks. Hey, I'm a work in progress...
As for standing firm, you know, I appreciate you saying that.
Good. I don't think Paul joked much about standing firm either, as it is a phrase he often used in his letters, so maybe you should think about that.
-PM
Interesting convo going on over here. I totally get where you are coming from Zues......though I've started to wonder if the alternative view points might actually be more useful:
We can waiver in our vows
We are all capable of cheating
Divorce is always an option (I think I read that on Edz' thread)
In some ways I feel that by acknowledging these viewpoints, one is more likely to take actions to ensure they don't occur. Whereas a simple belief that the alternative is true....well, now I am most likely headed for D....so my belief that it wasn't an option was clearly wrong.
As for standing firm, you know, I appreciate you saying that.
Good. I don't think Paul joked much about standing firm either, as it is a phrase he often used in his letters, so maybe you should think about that.
-PM
I can't tell if I'm being reprimanded. There wasn't much joking anywhere in the New Testament but I don't take that to mean I can't have a sense of humor. I found it funny that when you told me to stand firm I was so quick to say "hm, he's got a point, I should change my style", because by doing that I was demonstrating more of the same eagerness to accommodate others. If you don't find that funny you don't have to laugh, but I do. Either way, standing more firm is a huge reminder to me and something I will give more consciousness to. Thank you.
Interesting convo going on over here. I totally get where you are coming from Zues......though I've started to wonder if the alternative view points might actually be more useful:
We can waiver in our vows
We are all capable of cheating
Divorce is always an option (I think I read that on Edz' thread)
In some ways I feel that by acknowledging these viewpoints, one is more likely to take actions to ensure they don't occur. Whereas a simple belief that the alternative is true....well, now I am most likely headed for D....so my belief that it wasn't an option was clearly wrong.
Hey Gan! I realize everyone will look at this a little differently, and I think if this outlook helps others it makes perfect sense.
Going back to standing firm on my beliefs, I am not worried about me breaking my vows, cheating, or getting a divorced. No more than I'm worried about becoming a cannibal. Sure, you could draw up some survival story that is hypothetical and extreme, but in reality it will simply never happen. I certainly am not worried about looking at myself as a "potential cannibal" to avoid putting myself in those situations. For me that's just not a concern. Others might be skeptical, but that is between them and their maker, and their own commitment. I know what I know.
Now, I will remember that cheating and divorce is an option for most people. My goal will be to have compassion for them and their struggles, and to avoid being naive thinking a M is invulnerable. I have no room to devote emotions to being judgmental or righteous towards others that have initiated a D, compassion and forgiveness is where I'd like to get to (it's still intermittent for me, I have flashes of disgust for those that have). And definitely I will treat my M as very vulnerable as I know the possibility of cheating and divorce is a reality in the world we live in, and I want to do my part to avoid a situation that makes that easier for a future partner. But ultimately it is always their choice, and I will forgive myself as well for the inevitable mistakes I make and have made.
Again, I am not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking on this. But this is definitely how I feel on the topic. It isn't "right". It's just who I am. Just as I trust you all to have a good grip on who you are and what you believe. I think the common ground is mutual respect for the fact we all value M, are thoughtful, and are doing our best to live the way we feel we should. Thank you for helping me sort through this.
I can't tell if I'm being reprimanded.
I simply meant to make sure you are taking what I said seriously and to heart.
-PM
Z and PM,
Let's face it. We are all humans with natural sexual urges and needs.
Say....I am happily married with a beautiful wife.
Then I get stranded on a desert island for 10 years with Cindy Crawford for company. There's no contest right there that I'd be able to stand behind the line in the sand with my arms behind my back smiling at her. No way. Ten freakin' years on an island with Cindy right in my face and I can't touch her??
No way!
Why else do some prisoners have sex in prison? I am not talking about rape here. Some do have sex to relieve their blue balls (or whatever it is you men have).
Just keeping things in proper perspective.
Now, let me stand up here and say that I am a strong proponent of marriage. I get what you and PM are saying here. Totally.
Z if I may be so bold ...... You (and I) are being self-righteous.
Nobody considers themselves in the (potential) cheater camp. My W has always and still does consider herself a person who would never cheat. My W absolutely does not consider that she cheated. Breaking vows, til "death do us part", I don't recall "or at least until D is finalised" being part of these vows. So any R is in breach of your vow. what if you re-marry - holy crap - where do the vows stand then?
My W absolutely does not consider that she cheated. We didn't have the "paperwork" to say the M was over, but we were S, and the M was realistically over. Whilst I see it as an EA pre-BD was definitely going on (as do most people, even Sandi a former WW herself now objectively lays out the mindset and events), W absolutely disagrees that this was anything more than a supportive friend.
Maybe, she will one day admit to being flattered/seduced etc as was so obviously happening - but she has erected this whole story to remain one of those people in the no cheater camp. So people are or are not capable of "cheating", they are capable of justifying.
So where do we raw this line - basically the same question, but from another perspective. I (and you) admit that we certainly provided the impetus towards making this justification possible. All those extreme examples of canibalism, they are just questions of "would this be justification to committee act".
But what I am saying is that for my WAW, she never did commit that act as far as she is concerned. Was she justified to cry on the shoulder of a friend. Of course this is always valid.
Also consider these vows as above - does God consider D as a valid dissolution of the contract. Is death the only out. Where does it say death of only one S is required. Orthodox women NEVER remarry. They wear black and scared for the rest of their lives. Hindu women are EXPECTED to throw themselves on their H's funeral fire and burn with them (although now outlawed in MODERN India).
My last post sums it up perfectly. I truly all of your rights to have your own opinions and beliefs. I remain very clear on this subject for myself.
To Wonka, as I said, I can concoct situations that don't occur in our daily lives as extremes as I could with cannibalism, murder, etc. But in my real life that won't occur.
Py, if I were judging harshly those who felt differently I would agree. I am not. Everyone is free to choose their own path.
As for when it's ok to have another R, again...we don't need to over-complicate this and present it as if there are so many shades of grey absolutes can't exist. The world isn't black and white, that doesn't mean values don't exist. For me, I didn't initiate a D, I didn't cheat, I am not going to be with another woman for years. If the D my WAW initiated is signed and years go by and she's remarried and that door is closed, I will sleep like a baby as I move into a new R. To me that doesn't conflict with the fact I would never have chosen this road, and never will in the future.
hey Z - I understand that you are not judging "them". I am suggesting there is no "them".
absolutely shades of grey. cheat or no cheat is either end of the spectrum. The spectrum being all that greyness in between. where you might point to in that spectrum changes, but more importantly what I am saying is that the spectrum itself changes.
the spectrum we are holding up to them is cheat or no cheat - and where do they fit in. on this same spectrum they see themselves firmly in the no cheat zone. to maintain themselves in the no cheat zone they kept altering their "justifiable" spectrum.
this is all getting to be like what I imagine "The Glass Bead Game" would be like. (Excellent book BTW - 12 years to write, almost as long to read).
I'm not arguing Z - just considering viewpoints myself.
thanks py. I do understand the spectrum view. If it helps you to view things that way I fully support it.
I think its great to discuss different viewpoints. Even if at the end of the day we maintain our separate views we can analyze the negatives and positives each may have. This can give us a better understanding of why we think a specific way, questioning ourselves. That is one major reason we are here, mirror work. Sometimes it takes another perspective to see a clearer image in that mirror. Like Zues said before, one belief isn't necessarily wrong or right, its more important how it helps the individual. Good discussions
I think its great to discuss different viewpoints. Even if at the end of the day we maintain our separate views we can analyze the negatives and positives each may have. This can give us a better understanding of why we think a specific way, questioning ourselves. That is one major reason we are here, mirror work. Sometimes it takes another perspective to see a clearer image in that mirror. Like Zues said before, one belief isn't necessarily wrong or right, its more important how it helps the individual. Good discussions
Where do you get off being so reasonable and diplomatic?!?
lol
Zeus - i would appreciate your opinion on latest posts in my thread. I know you are in same L-ing "attack"
Z and PM,
Let's face it. We are all humans with natural sexual urges and needs.
There is no such thing as a sexual need.
-PM
Z and PM,
Let's face it. We are all humans with natural sexual urges and needs.
There is no such thing as a sexual need.
-PM
Bwwwaah! You crack me up....
need - like breathe maybe? otherwise I agree with Wonka. I think?
need - like breathe maybe? otherwise I agree with Wonka. I think?
The meaning of the word "need" being something a person cannot live without.
If people want to redefine the word "need" to mean "something I really, really like and want and don't like to deny myself" that is fine. People can do that. But then it is a semantics debate and does not change the fact that sex is not a biological necessity like food and water and oxygen.
There is no such thing as a sexual need. It is not a biological requirement to remain alive.
-PM
technically speaking, without sexual interaction in past times none of us would even be here, so I could argue it is in fact a need on some level...
hehehe - very true - but sexual needs implies NOT just sex for reproduction
Hi Zues,
Just checking in to see how you are doing? Sorry, it's been a while.
Your friend,
Bob
Hey Bob. Been a hard few days.
Thursday/Friday I was pretty bottomed out. Just so overwhelmed and sad. Mediation starts Thursday. So much piling up. And what we're doing just seems so horrible. I was so empty on Friday, I went to work because I had to, but when someone asked me how I was doing I just broke down and started crying. That kind of a day.
I talked to my Dad on Friday and he came down on Saturday for a visit (he lives 2 hours away). We had lunch, then we went to a poolhall that has a weekly tournament. We both played in it. He won a match (which was pretty cool) and I ended up winning the tournament (which also was pretty cool).
Playing pool makes me feel sublime. Why? At the surface you could say the ego thing, winning tournaments with people watching, etc. Partly it's because it is an escape from the pain. More of it has to do with how amazing it is to play the way I play. It's hard to explain. At times it's otherworldly, and it's a joy to be able to channel the beauty that is that level of exquisite play. But a large part of it is that it makes me feel like myself. Maybe because I've played since I was 12. Maybe for other reasons. But somehow when I play it gets me in touch with my spirit, the part of me that reminds me who I am and why I enjoy being me.
Even though it took a lot of energy to play, I found myself recharged in so many ways. I used that to get a lot of things done yesterday and today, paperwork for L, grocery shopping, bills, laundry, and lots of work for my job.
My two thoughts of the day. First, I am sad at times but not depressed. It's situational, because this stuff is hard, hard stuff. It's not depression because I don't think I AM a problem, I am just dealing with a problem. For me that's a big step, because I used to be depressed, now I'm doing better and just dealing with a lot. Second, I remember that I'm not sad simply due to the divorce. Sure, that's still difficult for me. But that's life. If I was in my M I would be frustrated as hell with STBX, dealing with resentments and hurts, and other pain from our M. It's so easy to think that if we were still M it would somehow all be better, but that's not life. It helps me to remember that busting the D or not is not a contest of whether I'll be eternally fulfilled or eternally lonely and heartbroken. It's a big deal, but in some ways it's really not a big deal. It's just life.
So mediation Thursday. This does make me anxious. I feel like I'm playing a game with the future of my family and my life as the stakes. I've played for a lot of money, but this is ridiculous. My plan is to work out in the morning, then meditate for a while. I also plan on writing out 3 things that could come up that would be 'triggers' that might be hard to deal with, then visualize myself handling it according to my game plan. I'm treating this like a big game, not in the sense that it's a joke to me...remember, I take games very seriously.
As of this moment I'm chill, relaxed, playing some online chess and reading. I just won with the black pieces and found a way to draw a lost position with the white pieces. I guess my life is ok
Hey Zues....I just wanted to reflect on your feelings on playing pool in the tournament. Your description prompted me to recall my reading of Martin Seligman's book Authentic Happiness...especially Chapter 7 called Happiness in the Present. He discusses the ideas or experiences of "gratifications" and being in the "flow". I believe your above description of what happens for you when you play pool fall fully into these descriptions. I would not do the terms justice in describing them here. So If you get a chance to read this book, particularly chapter 7, I think it would be informative and valuable and allow you insight into what your skill, strength and joy at playing pool might really mean to your overall happiness in life. I think it might give you a new appreciation for the place of pool in your life. But then again maybe not, lol. Just my hope really.
Anyway all my good thoughts for you at this time while you are sad but optimistic. XxxxJB
Thanks JB. I've got quite the list of book recommendations, I still haven't gotten to gans or the stuff my dad has given me. But yours is on my list. I do love to read, and I still am holding out hope that I can learn and grow.
Still reading "9 fantasies that will destroy your life". For being easy reading it's not easy reading because I have to stop and think often, and there are quite a few things that trigger me to rehash situations in my marriage. I'm still stunned with how much of a disaster it was.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm psyching myself out on relationships. I mean, I read daily about breakups, wayward spouses, betrayals, etc. Everything is strategy, people trying to face demons, grow and change. Books, counselors, and tremendous daily effort. I know relationships are tough, but looking at all of this, thinking about all of my problems, all the challenges I would bring, all the things to balance out or work through...it just gets me feeling like it's impossible.
As I write this I am a little fed up. One of my biggest problems is that I am a perfectionist, and I could drive myself insane trying to change into something I'm not. I'm all about "no more mr. nice guy" in the sense of learning to be more direct, reducing my expectations, etc. But I read all of these books and posts and it creates this idea in my head that there is a 'right' way to be, and I'm just never going to be there. I want to keep doing what I can to avoid destructive outlooks and behavior, but the idea that I can become someone I'm not is maybe the most destructive, because I can't, and I just feel defeated and discouraged when I think I'm supposed to.
One example is that I'm not confident with women, nor do I shine in situations in which there are social games being played. I'm not sure if I've ever asked a woman out for a date. I'm certainly not awkward socially, I'm a sales professional, I put people at ease, if other people are uncomfortable I can still break the ice, I have a great sense of humor, and I believe in myself tremendously. I'm just not the bold alpha male that commands everyone's attention.
When the man-cave thread came out there were a bunch of guys talking about how to become that type of man. Mozza is a guy that is pushing himself out of his comfort zone, being more direct, asking for what he wants...but that doesn't work for me in that I don't want to go date a bunch of women, nor do I want a woman that wants that type of man.
The truth is I'll probably always be shy of women initially, but I'm fortunate to live in an internet age, and when I'm in my element (pool, work, etc) I am extremely confident because I'm almost 'in character'. For example, I had no problem handling myself cool and calm with the coworker that expressed some interest several months ago (until I found out she was married and ran for the hills). So I'm thinking things will work out the way they work out. But the biggest point is that I'm done thinking there's just one way to be. The alpha male is to men what the anorexic models are to women. Good for them that they're 80lbs, and good for them those guys that they have their confidence through their ears...for me I may need to ease of trying to grown and change, and instead work on accepting myself as is. I think that would be the biggest growth of all.
Thanks for listening all. Wishing you all a good night's sleep in DB world.
Amen.
I dont know what we expect of ourselves now. What's the test that you have become that person you want be? I dont think there can be a single test designed. I think the test is just life. Live it. You know what behaviours you dont want in your life. So just live, and if you notice them, squash them or deal with them. If you fail and end up back here, start again.
We need to find compassion and forgiveness for ourselves which is harder than finding it for others.
I know what you mean about disaster. Almost everyday I realise something that was really screwed up in my M/R. One of them is similar to your issue with women. My core-belief system won't allow me to believe that a woman could be attracted to me, and so I have almost snagged each R on the first bite. This is not exactly true, but I certainly have not been as discerning as I should have been.
There were massive incompatibilities in my M that I worked around. Dont get me wrong I love my W terribly, and this is why I did turn a blind eye to the incompatibilities. But maybe I should've just kept fishing until I met someone that had it all. Maybe I should've had the confidence to remain in the pool for longer, single. Maybe this is about expectations again. Maybe this is the way it will always be. With my W this wasn't an issue until the M started turning bad.
It occured to me a while back, when I was thinking about meeting someone in the future and the reality of how hard it actually is to do that, that I am most likely going to have several Rs before finding the right one. This saddens me more, to the point where I couldn't even be bothered starting.
Oh well
. I am having a rough trot as well Z. I am back to agonising over my W's behaviour (past and current) and also her PA with OM. I feel it is just making a mockery out of our M and in particular me. I dont know for sure but everything suggests that she is now the physical partner she never was for me. Maybe she did just love me like a brother as she said once. I just feel drained! Of course doesn't help that I have L action impending and sick kids to boot.
-Py
Sorry you're in the rough Py. I've got mediation scheduled for tomorrow. I've had a pre-med. call with L, have studied the talking points and both of the L's proposals, have done some preparation, but still feel like I'm clueless as to what's going to happen. STBX and I are so far apart in some ways I just don't see how we can bridge the gap. But I guess I'll see what happens.
As for the rant above, I have a hard time with understanding things that aren't linear. Pool? Solved. Chess? Makes sense. Sales? Much more multidimensional, but a clear target with a desired outcome, keep making tweaks until you bring home the bacon.
Relationships are tough because there isn't a "right". I mean, there are some general do's and don'ts, but there are many more shades of grey. Do I demand more from a partner, or accept that we're all imperfect and compromise? Is this a need or a want? A desire or an expectation? Am I a bulldozer or a pushover? Can we make the M better, or is this the best it can be and I should shut up and be appreciative because trying to fix something that isn't broken is breaking it? Am I a terrible person or a good guy managing his problems the best he can?
These questions are tough for me. Being a perfectionist I get uncomfortable without a right or wrong. Even in my current sales role I've driven my manager nuts because I'm pretty over-analytical (although he's reckless and a bit careless, just polar opposites...but we have a TON of mutual respect). My confidence in myself is really low because of all of these grey areas, but little by little I take all of these complex systems and abstract dynamics and it's like I stare at them and I stare at them and I stare at them...then it's like I'm in the Matrix and I'm seeing all 0s and 1s, and suddenly I have it SOLVED. Then I'm like world class and all of the things that I used to think about are now intuitive and ingrained, and I can THEN feel confident and go off of feel. But first I have to do thousands of hours of heavy computing.
I think if I have a hope of salvation that's how it will look in my interpersonal R's. I have been reading, posting, IC, etc...I am spinning my brain in circles, and right now those problems look unsolvable. And some certainly are to an extent. But I may get to the point that I figure out who I am to the point I'm satisfied.
Funny story about that...there are three styles of pool players in terms of speed: those that play fast, those that play slow, and those that shift gears depending on how they feel and the table layout. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. In my quest for perfection I spent like 3-4 years obsessing with the 'right' speed to play. I studied champions of all styles, looked at the differences between the guy that never won but was always top 10, vs. the guy that would win two in a row then go into a slump. I experimented, studied, picked the brains of my peers, and FINALLY...after years I found the answer: IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. JUST PLAY MY GAME. But even though that answer seems obvious and like my efforts were a waste, I'm never bothered by that questions now because I've made peace.
Thanks for talking Py. I'm a little nervous. Good to know you know I'm wrestling alligators
Good luck tomorrow Z. I work with athletes all day, and have for years. The best advice I've ever been given and have ever given is what you said in your last paragraph - Just play your game.
It's yours. It'll never be perfect because perfect doesn't exist. It's an impossibility. But it's yours. Play your game tomorrow. Play your game with your W. Play your game in your next R. And play your game in sales.
No one can be you as well as you can. In business, on the pool table, tomorrow in the meeting, and down the road with someone else. You know who's going to end up being perfect? You'll be perfect in the eyes of someone, with all of your faults, insecurities, and foibles. And there will be stuff about you that you didn't even know existed that will drive her nuts. So you'll adapt. Life is fluid my friend.
Be water.
Will be thinking of you tomorrow, play well.
Z, I think 'right' is acting in accordance with your core values - even when you feel emotional and it's tough to do that. It's acting in a way that 2,3,5 years down the line you'll look back and feel proud and at peace with. Good luck my friend x
Zues,
Just wanted to say I was thinking of you on this tough stretch.
Thanks guys. I can feel all of my emotions very strongly going into this session.
I am concerned with allowing my emotions take focus on what's important- my children. I'm concerned that my emotions will overpower me and I'll allow this to become a forum to voice my feelings.
Divorce is wrong. Mediation is wrong. This is wrong. This is a crime of the highest order. I am against my will being forced into a process that is dismantling my family.
I appreciate the mediators and lawyers that are trying to make this civil and minimize the damage, but it's hard not to resent them as their very existence endorses this path.
I read about "how to prepare for divorce mediation" and there are all of these articles that treat this like it's a day at the office.
Walk away wives. Lawyers. Courts. Magazine journalists. Good for all of you. How very progressive a culture, our right to personal happiness has now blossomed and we don't have to put up with oppressive marriages that could threaten that.
I am praying to find a way to forgive the crime that has been committed against me, and all of you. I won't waiver on my beliefs that it is a crime of the highest order, and it is when people defend or minimize it that I feel my emotions flare up. But I need to find compassion for not just the perpetrators, but those that minimize these issues. I have faith I'll get there.
You'll get there Z - Acceptance and Business are my two watchwords just now. Acceptance of the impending D process and Businesslike in my response...
I hope it goes as well as it can ((((Zues)))
Thanks for the support Toots. I'm trying to spew here so I can do just that. Some of my goals are to remain:
1. Focused on the best interest of the children. It may pain me that what's best for them is hard for me at times, but this is my chance to show them how deeply I love them.
2. Relaxed. I'm not going to allow things to get escalated.
3. Trusting. It's easy for me to assume STBX is being manipulative or strategic and that she will be unreasonable, but it would be wrong for me to be the one to break down conversation by being distrustful. I will give her the opportunity to demonstrate goodwill, and I won't allow the first sign of conflict to trigger me into an accusatory tone.
4. Reasonable and open-minded. Nothing is off the table as long as the children are provided for and the entire family can continue forward.
So, Focused/Relaxed/Trusting/Reasonable. FRTR. How can I forget that
Thanks all. I'll let you know how it goes!
Divorce is wrong. Mediation is wrong. This is wrong. This is a crime of the highest order. I am against my will being forced into a process that is dismantling my family.
I appreciate the mediators and lawyers that are trying to make this civil and minimize the damage, but it's hard not to resent them as their very existence endorses this path.
I agree and if I was able I would put a link in for a place that MWD endorses that is for divorcereform.
They have a lot of good articles on the subject and I personally support their efforts!
Hey Bob. Been a hard few days.
My two thoughts of the day. First, I am sad at times but not depressed. It's situational, because this stuff is hard, hard stuff. It's not depression because I don't think I AM a problem, I am just dealing with a problem. For me that's a big step, because I used to be depressed, now I'm doing better and just dealing with a lot. Second, I remember that I'm not sad simply due to the divorce. Sure, that's still difficult for me. But that's life. If I was in my M I would be frustrated as hell with STBX, dealing with resentments and hurts, and other pain from our M. It's so easy to think that if we were still M it would somehow all be better, but that's not life. It helps me to remember that busting the D or not is not a contest of whether I'll be eternally fulfilled or eternally lonely and heartbroken. It's a big deal, but in some ways it's really not a big deal. It's just life.
Hey Zues,
I'm finally getting back to you after a few days. I understand 100%...none of this &%@$ is easy. I really can relate to all in your response to me, especially the paragraph I quoted above. I have
all those same feelings. You wrapped it up in one paragraph.
But, who knows what tomorrow will bring? Try to (somehow) keep a PMA.
You're in my thoughts and prayers quite often. You help so many others' here and for that I, and I'm sure others, are so grateful to you!
Your friend,
Bob
So, Focused/Relaxed/Trusting/Reasonable. FRTR. How can I forget that
Thanks all. I'll let you know how it goes!
Seems you got a plan and are going in mentally prepared.
Good luck Zues, you got this!
Zeus,
I am sorry for your pain with the D and mediation process.
Divorce is wrong. Mediation is wrong. This is wrong. This is a crime of the highest order. I am against my will being forced into a process that is dismantling my family.
Do you really believe this?
There are horrific crimes happening all over the world every day that will scare the bejesus out of any rational person.
-Albinos are targeted in African nations specifically for their body parts for "magical powers" in their medicine. Their arms and legs get chopped off with an axe.
-Indian girls and women are raped almost on a daily basis in India just "because" men fear them gettting an education or seeking betterment
-Sex trafficking of children is a large global business
-Africian girls and women are forced to be gentially mutilated because men "fear" their natural sexual desires (a sharp razor blade is used without any anesthesia)
Need I say more here?
Perspective please...
You still have a life. You still have your health. You still have your body.
Thinking about you Z. Hope it went well today.
PP
Zeus,
I am sorry for your pain with the D and mediation process.
Divorce is wrong. Mediation is wrong. This is wrong. This is a crime of the highest order. I am against my will being forced into a process that is dismantling my family.
Do you really believe this?
There are horrific crimes happening all over the world every day that will scare the bejesus out of any rational person.
-Albinos are targeted in African nations specifically for their body parts for "magical powers" in their medicine. Their arms and legs get chopped off with an axe.
-Indian girls and women are raped almost on a daily basis in India just "because" men fear them gettting an education or seeking betterment
-Sex trafficking of children is a large global business
-Africian girls and women are forced to be gentially mutilated because men "fear" their natural sexual desires (a sharp razor blade is used without any anesthesia)
Need I say more here?
Perspective please...
You still have a life. You still have your health. You still have your body.
To me the social movement to accept as an everyday occurrence choices that destroy families and lifelong partnerships, the most valuable, important, and rewarding journey we are here to pursue, is the most horrible development in a culture that has made strides on nearly every other social front. I think the cumulative pain and suffering caused by the repeated severance of family households and the loss of loyalty and commitment as we seek selfish gratification is overwhelming and unnecessary, and is minimized by a population that has been lead to believe that it's a progressive movement to pursue personal freedoms at the expense of a higher purpose.
Now, how I find peace in a world that is different than I wished it were or expected it to be...that is a different story. Denying reality, harboring resentment or judgment, none of that helps me appreciate the life I've been given. If your intent was to remind me to be appreciative I'm on the same page. But debating how the divorce epidemic ranks among other atrocities doesn't minimize how I feel on this topic.
Thinking about you Z. Hope it went well today.
PP
Thanks all. It went well in terms of making progress towards a resolution that won't leave anyone destitute and will minimize the impact to the children. For that I am grateful.
I've been through the recap with both my mother and father and at this point I'm a bit spent. I can maybe speak of it more tomorrow or at a later date. Right now it just looks like what kind of a bow-tie you put on a pile of crap. But this too shall pass.
take your time Z. I was flatforweeas after mediation. Keep in mind though that there is never an "end". Anything could happen yet. I have told you before about two guys I know that "inherited" full custody other kids when they got a bit older because they couldn't handle their mother's (both WWs) behaviour. I have a close friend who was left with visitation rights only. Two years later he had full custody. Another, the W had full custody, now he is fighting for 60/40 and it looks like he is about get it (although in his case he shouldn't, he is an idiot, and his motives are severely misplaced).
whatever the bow-tied crap is, it is the deal for now. how long that lasts - who knows.
Take care
I can't remember the details, but true story. There was a monk imprisoned in China for many years (i think decades). He somehow got out and fled to Dharmsala in India whee he met with the Dalai Lama. He was tortured and abused in prison. The Dalai Lama asked him what was his worst experience. His reply - "I was afraid that I would lose compassion for my jailers".
I cant add to that
Z,
To be clear, I am for marriage. I do not support divorce ..only in extreme circumstances.
Now that said, the only issue that I had was your statement that divorce is "a crime of the highest order." Clearly not the case here when shown some really horrific crimes against humanity that, for the lack of a better word, supersedes divorce.
Bottom line: You are entitled to your views/opinions and vice versa with mine.
I enjoy reading your posts for they are indeed thought provoking. Thank you, Z.
Thanks Wonka. Yes, sometimes I get carried away in my rants. I don't disagree with your assessment of world horrors.
Really I just need to spew this out of my system. I've thought a lot about the question of how to find compassion and forgiveness, and whether we need to consider ourselves "potential" WAS's to feel that way. I thought about the Christian view of forgiveness, and look at God or Jesus as a possible example to follow. I don't think either of them are considered 'potential sinners', yet they have the capacity of a love and compassion we can never achieve unless through the spirit. At least that's my understanding.
To follow their lead, open my heart to that level of forgiveness, pray for those that have hurt me...that is what I am working towards. It does help to validate my own feelings first, telling myself I feel the way I wish I felt doesn't work well. See clip below for an excerpt from a good book I'm reading. But once I get that out, then I can ask myself where those feelings come from, what I can learn from them, and where I want to go from here. The answer is NEVER to stay angry or hurt, and each time I go through this cycle it gets a little easier to get back to some type of serenity and compassion. Thanks for the support!
********************************************************
Quote from "The 9 fantasies that will ruin your life":
Denial is the result of ignoring internal information (our feelings) or external information (others' behavior). Because denial doesn't change reality, it leaves the individual less prepared to act in an appropriate way....Until we understand and acknowledge our impulses (sexual, venal, angry, whatever) we deny our true self. I stress the difference between thought and deed because knowing the difference allows us to have control over our behavior.
Keeping ourselves in the dark because we're afraid to turn on the light of understanding will leave use clueless about our thoughts. Since feelings lead directly to behavior, ignoring the trigger means the behavior will seem random, and if it's random we're not responsible for it- BUT IT ISN'T RANDOM AND WE ARE RESPONSIBLE. Understanding and acknowledging our feelings gives us a blueprint of options that can be altered, acted upon, or discarded.
So with my conflicting emotions, I'm working on recognizing three different pieces: The sinner, the sin, and my boundaries. I can have love for the sinner, hate the sin, and then put that aside and decide how close I want to let that behavior near me.
It's funny, things went well at mediation. It's been a year, and we've been separated, but she feels like my wife. I really feel like we're still married, it's just a marriage in which we don't talk anymore and she is hooking up with other guys. It's not what I wanted and I'm not ok with that, but in a weird way I'm still married and feel like I always will be.
It's like we're just going to have a marriage where we separate, go our different directions, live new lives, and build relationships with new people. If that's the marriage she wants I can't stop her. But I feel like we'll just be in a dysfunctional disconnected marriage.
Somehow that works better for me to think of it that way. Because while I still have a tremendous bond with her, I have to set boundaries to protect myself from who she is. She probably feels the same with me. Good for her. But somehow it allows me to preserve and validate the bond we had, because it will kind of always be there. It's not lost, it's just not what we're going to act on.
I don't know why that would ease my sense of loss, but from that view I guess I'm ok. She can do her thing, I'm doing fine doing my thing. I'm sure that bond will fade as time goes on and the people we were together are more of a memory, but it may always be there due to what we went through to some extent. Either way I'm doing ok and I'll just keep rocking my beat.
Not sure if I'm making sense, but that's how I feel right now. And when I feel conflicting emotions I'm sorting them out, then deciding what I want to do about it in terms of behavior. So I think all is ok.
Happy holiday weekend all!
So with my conflicting emotions, I'm working on recognizing three different pieces: The sinner, the sin, and my boundaries. I can have love for the sinner, hate the sin, and then put that aside and decide how close I want to let that behavior near me.
forgive them for they know not what they do. The same sentiment exists from a Buddhist perspective. They are screwing their own karma and are clearly unaware of it. Buddhism is very "forgiving" in the sense that you don't have to believe that karma transcends lifetimes, or in reincarnation, or in anything for that matter. The only thing that is important is you actions. What you believe is irrelevant.
I don't have to love her. Just not hating her is enough for me. Not because I necessarily believe in karma, but I do believe that harbouring anger in my heart will only hurt me, and sacrifice the future good I might do/recieve.
I dont have to hate or love the sin either. There are no sins per se. Just life. And [censored] happens. There is no heaven or hell either. Well again, per se. In a sense this life is hell, until you have that perfect life where your actions effectively reflect all those same things that Jesus portrayed and totally move your karma into the zone of readiness to simply sublime into pure energy, heaven.
The liberating part is that as mere mortal souls we cannot ever know our karmic history, and no matter how good you are, your soul might be destined to return to this hell anyway because of something that happened in a previous incarnation of your soul. Liberating because it doesn't really matter how you act now. Liberating because you are free to choose. Liberating because you might as well be the best person you can be without any expectation of heaven or hell, but simply because you know it is the right thing to do.
Thanks Py. Since I've got time tonight I think I'll finally share my belief on how Karma works. It goes like this:
Picture a dark room with an enormous white wall. Then we take a slideshow of your entire life, from the moment you were born until the very end, and you put those slides up on the wall from left to right. Got it? Now, turn on a flashlight. That's 'consciousness'. It starts by shining on the first moment, then streams across like a flip book, creating the illusion of the passage of time. In reality there may be no time, it's all up there, but the consciousness is only aware of one moment, and while you're experiencing that moment you have the perception of the previous slide having just happened, etc.
Now it gets fun. Under your slideshow, there's my slide show. And under that is WAS's, and her dog's, and everyone that has come before or after (I told you it was a big wall). So all of our lives are up there, from beginning to end, simultaneously.
But the point is that there is only ONE flashlight. ONE consciousness. So when you're done experiencing life as "Py", then the consciousness may flash down to my slideshow and you'll have the experience of me typing these words to you. And so one. But it's all one consciousness, experiencing each life. Until at some point the light comes on and we see the entire picture. All of it, like a big mural. Nothing lost. No feelings, experiences, suffering, or sacrifice lost. All part of a big art project that we can't begin to comprehend (hey, I told you I used to meditate doing headstands while listening to across the universe while peaking at 3AM).
The reason I feel Karma ties into this is that if we're all one consciousness, then I will by default experience FIRST HAND the ramifications of my actions in this life. If I betray someone in my life, karma won't necessarily 'get me back' in this life...but when I'm living their life I will be them, and I will be the one betrayed. Even my passive shortcomings (like not doing more to help those that are hungry) are wrong, and while I won't be 'judged' by a sentient being, I will one day be hungry with a guy in the US typing on DB forums instead of doing more to help me out.
This to me shares some similarities with Buddhism with a type of Karma and reincarnation, this is just my interpretation of it. So what to do with that knowledge? Well, when I remind myself of that holding a grudge at WAS just seems to be getting mad at myself, and does nothing constructive. I don't know what the ultimate purpose is, but it seems that when the lights go on I want to do what I can to make that mural look a little more caring and beautiful.
Tonight I do that by sharing some good will with all of you folks. Thanks for being my DB family. You guys mean a lot to me. Be well.
Hey, Zues. I liked your July 4 post....and I do get it. I think that bond sort of lives on in my situation, too, despite the very little interaction since BD. Even despite the distance, H still feels free to make comments on what I would like, or what I should do...and it frustrates me in some ways but endears me in others. Fact is, we did share something special with each other. Maybe it wasn't meant to be forever...but it was there at some point and it does live on.
Just another thought while it occurs to me. I've often been a bit surprised + amused by the way you draw on extreme examples/turns of phrases when trying to get your point across (I recall you likening unfulfilled sexual desire to not feeding your baby, deciding not to cheat to not turning to cannibalism for example). I see you've gotten into an exchange with Wonka over this above. I wonder if this was ever an issue IRL?
Hey Gan, responding to your posts here and also on your thread.
First, I realize it's my own problem that I was afraid of being 2x4'd. That was partly a joke, but sometimes we joke about things we're afraid to say seriously. I definitely have an issue with conflict. I am very openminded, but I am sensitive. You've been a delight to talk to because at all times I've felt very validated and understood, and if you've debated with me I never felt we argued, I always felt we were conversing, because you have always been very respectful of differing viewpoints and phrasing your own ideas as suggestions or brainstorms. I guess I'm both pointing out something about myself I've learned, and also thanking you for being a good friend.
I do agree I am 'expansive'. This has been tamed down somewhat since I've been in therapy. But everything I do has been somewhat over the top. I didn't want to be a good pool player, I wanted to be the greatest player that ever lived. This is one example of how my mind goes to extremes. My IC actually said he's impressed I've been successful in the real world, many people with my characteristics have had 8 failed businesses and are in bankruptcy (his example).
Put these two together (sensitive around conflict, expansive) and I can see the pattern. I don't respond well to conflict and usually just shut down. My best friend and I joke about the 'dead to me' list. If someone crosses boundaries I generally just bow out and drop them off my list of people I talk to. I, like you, try to respect other's opinions and don't like being bullied which is how it feels when people are confrontational with me. So in the past I would've just not replied to Wonka and written her off as someone I don't want to talk to anymore...but I'm trying to work on being able to get along with others outside my comfort zone. I know Wonka is high quality and felt it was important to work through that conversation, if I can't get along with people like her I'm in trouble.
So is being 'expansive' a problem in real life? It's definitely a tendency, something I've reeled in a bit because it was a little goofy at times. I'm not sure it causes me problems necessarily, in fact I find that I'm very good at communication. I'm in sales and have been in leadership, and have been able to 'paint pictures' in people's head that allow me to get messages through that others might not.
But to actually go to extremes in my thinking...that could cause me problems. I have worked on getting away from 'all or nothing' thinking, and have really tried to get in touch with my emotions so I'm not allowing them to drive me to crazy conclusions in my head. At some point though I do think it will be part of my personality, so my goal is awareness and management. I think most of my journey is about accepting who I am and working within myself rather than trying to 'will myself' into someone that I'm not.
Thanks for talking about it with me. It's a real pleasure. I will dive into Passionate Marriage next, not only do I look forward to learning about it, I look forward to having more things to fuel our conversations going forward. Talk soon!
Ah...yes I remember your "dead-to-me list". You told me about this waaay back when, after I mentioned my H's tendency to do something similar (his parents in this case). It's nice to hear that you are working through it...
Ah...yes I remember your "dead-to-me list". You told me about this waaay back when, after I mentioned my H's tendency to do something similar (his parents in this case). It's nice to hear that you are working through it...
You know Gan...I've been thinking about this a lot. I know why I do it. And it's not really a bad thing in many circumstances. I think there is opportunity to learn some middle road with people who's relationships I value, but overall I like this approach.
The reason I do it? It ties back to the serenity prayer. Accept the things I cannot change. There are many times I just cannot change other people. It's not that I'm "afraid of conflict", I just don't see the point in trying to reason with someone unreasonable, or trying to change someone or something that won't change. In these cases I feel I'm better off just accepting it, and controlling what I can: ME, and how close I let those people get to me.
Example: My boss has an admin assistant that I have to turn in expense reports, sales projections, and other things to from time to time. There are deadlines, and I'm well aware of them. If I miss a deadline I have made a mistake, which is entirely on me. The way she handles it, however, is to be extremely nasty and condescending, also using things like public shame. As I said, if I err I will accept any and all consequences for my mistakes, but I don't believe it's professional to be a bully to try to coerce people into action.
So the other day she sent me an email that was extremely rude and unprofessional in my opinion, and carbon copied my boss and my boss's boss. I thought about addressing it with her and my boss. I believe that if I am to be reprimanded it should be done privately and respectfully. Even if I did something that provoked my termination I would expect to be terminated with respect. That is my opinion. But I thought about it, and my conclusions were: 1) I don't believe she would change much, 2) It may create more bad will, and 3) I don't really care enough about the situation to warrant the energy to fight a battle that I may not be able to win.
So I just ducked the issue and put her on my mental 'dead to me' list. She can send emails all she wants and be as snotty as she likes. I have to deal with her once or twice a month. She has to live like that. Have fun lady.
I do this often. I just refuse to let people that don't deserve space in my head the ability to impact me. I CONSTANTLY see other people getting upset by things like this, get into arguments they can't win, try to change things they can't change, and let their attitude suffer or feel resentful, slighted, etc. So I feel my ability to recognize and avoid pointless conflict as a strength.
In my M my WAS was pretty unreasonable, meaning literally she would do what she did, my voice was pretty well unheard. I got to the point I treated her the same way. That still holds true. I am just 'dealing' with her, I am not trying to negotiate or be collaborative with her. This isn't because I'm scared, she's simply proved to me there is no point in trying to have a discussion so I am not going to waste my breath.
I am currently not speaking to my sister. She's the one that was best friends with WAS through BD and minimized her actions (affairs were 'flings', believed 'whatever made us both happy was best', played down her blackout drinking, and overall supported her course of action and was emotionally supportive to her). I told her how I felt, she minimized that and didn't change course. After that I just concluded that while I love my sister, I don't want her close to me going forward. I don't believe she will ever understand what she did was wrong, and I don't feel like having someone close to me that could do that to me again. When I remarry my future wife will never know my sister if I can help it. Dead to me.
I'm not really afraid of conflict...I guess I just need to understand the benefits. Mostly I've gone through my life accepting that other people will do what they do, and I'll just do what I do in response to navigate through the terrain. The people that prove to me can be reasonable, those are the people I feel comfortable investing in deeper relationships with.
Thoughts? I'm open to exploring this topic. I don't expect people to mind read, but if they demonstrate disinterest in being reasonable or sensitive then I just don't need them close to me. That's how I feel.
hey Z,
My grandmother on one side ws always the peacekeeper in the family. She was the ONLY one who could reign in her daughter. After she died (15 years ago), my aunty started exercising her "dead to me list" with abandon. Massive irreparable and heartbreaking terrible rifts started appearing in the family. She even ex-communicated her own single child. She has donee the same with her "friends".
15 years later she has very few people left.
THEY didn't conform to her standards. What she believed was "reasonable", THEY didn't. As a 3rd party it is easy too see that HER version of "reasonable" is warped. I have always been amazed that she genuinely believes it is everyone else who is being "unreasonable".
Anyway, not saying that you would fall into this trap, nor even that your "list" means that you just won't even bother maintaining "A" R with those on the list. My aunty is still civil to a degree if those on her list make contact with her, but she never initiates contact. Those listed eventually tire of it and drop off.
Personally, I have had a similar list at different times in my life. I went 3-4 years and only spoke to my father a handful of times. Prompted by other circumstances I later decided to move in with him. I avoided discussing anything that basically put him on my list in the first place.It wasn't easy as the list of topics NOT to discuss with him grew.
Years later, through my M "depression", he was back on the list - but angrily. In the past few months I have gone back to being "friends" with him. I still have a list of things I would rather not discuss with him, but I have found it is even easier to deal with these things by simply listening and validating and not even trying to (most times) "correct" him.
After I do see him (often enduring frustrating, know-it-all remarks) I know that he has enjoyed our conversation. I feel better for having NOT said anything, MUCH better, stronger and in control. Like not sending an angry email to WAS and the next day being very grateful for it.
The line you cross to doormat status is another issue. I know I do consciously validate as if I was someone else in these situations. Later I can use this more objectively to analyse what made it annoying or unreasonable to my way of thinking, and put it into perspective. i.e. Their "opinion/attitude" is "dead to me" in the sense that it doesn't affect my "opinion/attitude". They didn't change me, and I am through with trying to change them. Still, the person is not dead to me.
You can choose your friends, but not your family, WAS included. Doesn't mean your family also have to be your friends as well.
Thanks Py. I agree with about all of this. Some things that spring to mind after reading:
1. 'Dead to me' is a bit of a joke. No one is really dead to me. I bear no one ill will, and I simply enact boundaries to keep distance from people I don't feel need to be close to me. I'm not suggesting you didn't understand this, but I wanted to clarify.
2. Warped versions of reasonable. Very good point. I think my guideline has always been the test of "is it only me or everyone"? In other words, if I have a problem with someone, and NO ONE else does, I am inclined to look hard at myself. On the other hand if everyone else I know has the same problem with that person, then I feel a bit validated that it's not all me. I think in general I am pretty reasonable as I DO have a good list of friends I am close with, a good relationship with both of my parents, etc. So it's not that NO ONE can live up to my standards of what I feel comfortable with. I just know what they are. This doesn't mean I'm done exploring that topic, or growing in some ways to make that more flexible, etc. Just where I'm at today.
3. Shades of grey. You're right, it's not black and white. You mentioned maintaining SOME type of relationship with others. I definitely do that. The only time I've ever really done a 'dead to me' was with someone that was borderline crazy and dangerous, other than that I am always civil and conversational, and in some cases we can have casual friendships where we get together occasionally or have semi-superficial time together. So I can definitely do that, it's not like it's all or nothing.
4. Family. Agreed, my family is my family. When I said my sister was 'dead to me', again...I saw her at Easter, and we made some small talk, that's fine. I just am not interested in making plans with her or having heart to hearts about stuff like this. I'm good with that.
All in all, I think I should change the framing of this conversation from "is it healthy to have a 'dead to me' list", and instead have more of a conversation about what effective boundaries are and what productive conflict looks like.
I think I'm doing a lot of things right, however I also know I have room to grow in this department as well. Thanks for your input!
DISCLAIMER: Haven't read the above - so apologies if you've just said something serious and are in need of something more than I'm about to give.
But...wanted to let you know I just had a good laugh courtesy of you, Zues, en route to midweek GAL (drinks with a friend). I just past a restaurant called Hannibal. The slogan was something about how unique the food was. I bet it is!!! What a poor choice for a restaurant name! They probably don't shy away from cheating either
Will catch up on the above later.
hey Z,
your pointers?? I am feeling like whoa I am pretty OK with this now - now what. as you were a few months back - but I am feeling ......flat. numb. i am looking forward to a future, but really I am pushing that so far away it is like a dream.
I am betting you know how I feel so I would value your input here.
-Py
Hello Z,
I just wanted to stop by and say "Hello!" and let you know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. I haven't forgotten about you.
I haven’t been online too much lately and I’ve been trying to catch up on your situation. You are doing a lot of things right, and it seems others agree with me, too.
Please keep a PMA, don’t give up and keep moving forward. Way to go!
Your friend,
Bob
Gan: Thanks for cheering me up. Yes, horrible name for a restaurant. What was their motto, "It tastes like chicken"?
Bob: Thanks for your participation in the boards. I vote you the DB mascot. You put a little wind in everyone's sails. I'm glad to see you've found some comfort with us.
Py: I'm not sure what to say. I posted something on Jelly's thread that is kinda interesting and relates to things we've talked about. But I didn't really know what I could offer. Can you tell me a little more specifically what's on your mind? Maybe throw a question or two my way? I tend to ramble anyway, hoping I can be more coherent if I'm given a topic
Hang in all in DB land!
You have my vote Bob
Z - I can't think of a specific question. I'm just tired. I want to hold my W. I want her to hold me. I'm tired of being strong. I am not saying that I give up, or I won't keep on. I am just tired.
Zeus, just had the sudden urge to check in on you. Hope all is well.
Me too Z, hope you're continuing to thrive and work towards your goals.
How are you?
PP
Hey Sunny, Pig, and all DB!
Gosh, what's been going on? Hm. Nothing much happened since our first mediation session. I'm scheduling a follow up with my L to figure out what to do from here. Personally I am pretty close to just bringing this to court, I feel like dealing with WAS/L is a complete waste of time. I know mediation is better for the family because we get to have more gentle influence in sensitive situations, but that's only true if we can come to agreements and it seems I am dealing with a pretty nasty ex. I'm just SO ready to be divorced from this person. I know it's just a piece of paper, but at this point I feel it is protection from being harassed. Seriously, tell me the dollar amount of the check I have to write to get this crazy vindictive woman to leave me alone. That's where I'm at on that front. I didn't go into details on what all has happened I realize, but it just seems like I'm a bear trying to hibernate that keeps getting woken up because someone is poking me with a sharp stick. I keep trying to go back to sleep, but I feel like I'm getting close to my breaking point.
But I realize I need to detach further yet. I feel like I'm 100% fine with having her out of my life forever, but I'm having a harder time with having her in my life and being so nasty to me constantly. It doesn't seem fair that I should be sentenced to dealing with this person for the rest of my life. But I am confident that I'll reach a point when I just laugh at her harassment and it won't get me angry. I know that's on me. I'm still a work in progress. Talked to my IC today about it, he basically said I was human and should get mad about some of this, but then it's a matter of where I went from there. I've been validating my emotions, then steering back to compassion, forgiveness, and detachment, because that's where I want to live. Hopefully each time it gets easier, and eventually as the D is final and another year passes it gets easier yet.
My goals are going so-so. I'm not losing weight, but am still getting to the gym a few times a week. So I'm not defeated, just haven't gotten it done. Work is going really well, it's month 9 of my sales gig and I'm starting to feel really good about it. I NEED to win, $ will solve many of my problems right now. I am being a great dad, I've had some super good times with the kids and am starting to work 1:1 with them on some things they need help with emotionally. And I'm staying on top of laundry, dishes, and bills for the most part, keeping the place clean. So overall I'd give myself a B on the goals.
I've been scarce because of GAL, I've hung out with friends a few times this week, last weekend I played a pool tournament and had a good time, etc. Times are busy but that's good, if I don't line up activities I just lay in bed and curl into a ball because things are a bit overwhelming. Just a few more months and the D will be final one way or another, and my job will hopefully continue to get more automated.
Thanks for thinking of me, talk more soon!
I'm in a similar position Z.
I've already been through mediation. basically it failed b/c the onus was on a compromised solution rather than whether either starting position was unreasonable. which it is. So eventually I called the dogs and Ling-only began.
W's response through L to my notice of intent is ridiculously weak. My L actually called her L to genuinely question whether this is what she really wants to stand by b/c it all seems so ridiculous. So we are calling her bluff and letting the court decide. W has lived true to a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She genuinely believes that her actions and expectations are without fault and legitimate, and can't understand why WE are not all as excited and happy as she is. (The world revolves around her).
Anyway, as I said to Smothy - I am over it. I don't hate her anymore, I am compassionate and I forgive her - but her actions and beliefs (quite apart from actually cheating on me) are not the sort of characteristics I want in my life. Not someone I want to be friends with. In your words "dead to me".
It still hurts, a lot sometimes, but it is getting easier to detach from her completely. It will be even easier when court rules and one way or another I don't have to share a house with her and her OM. I only pray that it comes down hard on my side and I don't have to re-locate at all to maintain 50/50 custody.
Glad you checked in Zues. Sorry to hear how the mediation is turning out. I'm aware that turning my STBX in to angry vindictive b*stard is the risk I take by asking him to file. But we are going to have that conversation soon. Until then, I'm relaxing by the water.
It's funny, my IC is just really nonchalant about all of this. He just casually dismisses the thought of an amicable divorce and says that's what everyone says but then things pick up steam and eventually things just start getting pounded through the system and everyone walks away feeling bulldozed and taken advantage of. I actually love that he's so 'meh' about it all, because it reminds me that it's no big deal. The idea that it can be a tender sensitive divorce is just silly, and if I can just accept that isn't to be then it's no problem. (That said, Sunny, you may be in the 10% he says can pull it off!)
I made a post on 4mykids's thread that made me realize...I've grown beyond STBX. I'm not sure when it happened, but I no longer harbor the hope that she'll 'come out of the fog'. I see who she is, she just can't follow me on the path I'm going on. If she does I'd be surprised and skeptical. But I've really let her go in a way that I didn't think I'd reach. I'm still dealing with the pain of the aftermath of the divorce at times, but she is part of my history, not my present. The great thing about change is that I don't feel like the person I was a year ago, and it seems like the person that longed for her is just a distant memory. I feel less needy than I ever have, and am doing well.
My weekend with the kids. We watched the 'killer rabbit' scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail, they love that part. They love the Beatles too, and I told them how "Life of Brian" was so controversial nobody wanted to fund it...so George Harrison paid for the entire thing. When asked why he said "I wanted to see the movie". Then we listened to songs and hung out a bit before I put them to bed. I love my family and have never been better.
You all...sometimes I wish we could have a get together...but really maybe this is just perfect. You all simply rock and I am so happy to have shared this road with such good company. Good night DB world
Oh my goodness, kids movies these days are NOTHING like the kids movies I saw when I was growing up.
I know perception is totally different...but when I watched Little Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast it was emotional to a point...but this is way different.
I just took my kids to "Inside Out". Lord. I literally was crying through like 1/3 of the movie. I'm so embarrassed, I was trying no to shake because I'm supposed to be the dad and all, and it's rated PG for crying out loud! But for anyone that's seen it, I defy you to say that wasn't profound.
It just made me realize how precious every memory I have with my family is. It also woke up in me what an overwhelming and permanent loss it is that I can't share those memories with anyone, because they were treasures between me and STBX. To see 'family island' crumble when the daughter ran away from home was about too much for me. And it reminded me how much I love my family, and how deep my love for STBX ran. It doesn't matter now, but she'll probably never know how core my love for her was in my life. Truly divorce is a terrible thing.
But the movie was also about the importance of sadness, and letting all emotions speak, and how some of the most important things in our life aren't all happy or all sad, but a blend. And all is how it should be.
So I encourage all of you to check it out. I also think it was good for my kids, it taught a lot about how we work and how to manage ourselves as well.
Again, we're a long ways from 'Bambi'. Just wow.
Zues, I readily admit I hope we can pull off a D without a lot of angst and drama and come out friends on the other side. And I admit that I'm naive. But I'm going to try. And I'm ready to get started, so stay tuned everyone.
You should go see the Minion Movie. No emotional roller coaster, just fun.
As far as getting together, I know it's against the rules. But if you ever come to FL in search of a gator and don't figure out a way to look me up, I'll be offended.
Hello Zues,
How are you? I'm sorry I haven't checked in with you recently. For the last week or so I've been super busy with my sitch and GAL stuff.
I think about you often.
Hang in there my friend.
Bob
Thanks guys. I needed a little outreach.
STBX just asked me to trade weekends with the kids so they'd be with me for the weekend of her birthday because she wanted to go out of town with some friends. It made me feel pretty lonely and left out. I'm trying to figure out why...I really wouldn't have any interest in some big booze/pot/orgy (or whatever goes on, who knows, maybe they're on a Bible retreat)...and I know I don't want to rebound into anything right now...but it is a reminded that I'm by myself. I'm ok with that because it's where I should be- I think I'd be even lonelier surrounded by people that weren't deeply connected and caring of me, and that helps me remember why I'm on this path. I prefer a deeper intimacy, and one that has a foundation of trust and commitment. I guess I can wait for that so I'm in a place to be ready to make and receive that type of commitment.
Sunny, I'm optimistic you'll be able to have an amicable divorce. Your H doesn't sound like he wants a war, and you've handled things so gracefully that him escalating things will be like starting a fire with wet wood. I'm going to have to go back to your first few threads, I can't for the life of me understand why your H wanted to go down this road in the beginning...I can't remember if you've changed a lot or if you've always been this way, but you're a good example to the newbies that no matter how you play your cards WAS's will do what they do, and that ultimately we can make our own roads as well and we'll get where we're going.
Bob, thank you, I've been a bit busy too but am glad you're still such an anchor on these boards- but nothing beats GAL. I'll bop over to your thread and check it out.
Oh- BTW, right before I dropped my kids off I did something that was rather spontaneous and EXTREMELY fun and memorable. I watched a video with my kids about the worst parts of any video games ever. There was a part of MTV's "Pimp my ride" video game when you have to ghost ride, which means your character has to leave his car idling down the road while walking along side and doing goofy dance moves. Apparently this is the new pimp thing. So in this video the guy that's making fun of it does it in real life, he's dressed like a pimp and has tunes jamming out of his car (and it's like an old Dodge Neon) and he's walking along side of it while it rolls shouting phony rap lyrics and doing these terrible dance moves.
Point is we all laughed our tails off...so right before I dropped the kids off I pulled into an empty parking lot and I queued up the song from the video, threw open my door, and jumped out of the car and started twirling around and shouting out the stupid lyrics...just for like 5-10 seconds, then I jumped back in my car and shouted "ghost ride baby!". My kids DIED laughing. They thought it was the coolest thing ever. It was all they could talk about for the last half hour we were together. They went from a moment of panic when they saw me jump out of my car, to thinking I'm like the coolest dad ever. So it made me pretty happy to end on that note. As long as it doesn't somehow prove I'm a dangerous dad in court in 2 months...
Good night all!
Zues, for the life of me I can't figure out why he started this either. Sigh...
And you are one cool dad.
Hey there Zuesy-Boy!!!! Just thought I would come and play in your sandpit for awhile...I'm bored with my toys! Yours look better!
Nah, but really, just wanted to drop by and say I was thinking about you and what a blessing you have been to me here on the boards. I realised after reading about Matt's situation, that we are all just one post away from disappearing off here. So better make the most of the posts I have left.
Chin up young person, you rock!
Xxx JB
Ps awesome memory making daddy kid moment....that will come up at family gatherings in the future and be told to your grandkids! And note it will be even cooler when you do something like that when they are teenagers and you can get them back for their teenage antics. Love it!!!
Just giving Sunny and Jellys post a cheer.
V
Sunny, I reread your first handful of threads...yeah, some questions just don't have answers. I tried really hard to get into WAH's point of view but drew a total blank. He should play poker because I have no idea what he's thinking. Why does staying together have to be so hard? Seriously, I sometimes wish I had been born some type of animal like a squirrel or something that is just instinctive and doesn't have all this craziness to navigate. I'd take my chances with the occasional bald eagle overhead. I'm glad you're handling this so well but wish you didn't have to.
JB, thank you. I promise I'm not going anywhere. I've thought long and hard about it...I don't know that I would really care who read my threads. I mean, it's a bit personal, true, and it's not really something I intended for everyone's eyes...but I'm doing my best every day, and falling short every day. If people that know me want to read about it for whatever reason, good for them. Doesn't really change my path. Not ideal by any stretch, and I can see why it would be offputting to have STBX print off a big history and then use it with hostility, but it's kind of a moot point once the D is agreed on. It's like kicking the body of someone you just shot to death. Anyway, rambling...point is thanks for thinking of me and glad to see you back and helping so many others!
Yes you leaving would trigger my rejection and abandonment issues! (Wink,wink) lol
Thanks Zues. You gave me a laugh this morning. Maybe one of these days he'll explain himself to me, maybe someday he'll even regret it. Sadly, it won't matter anymore. It doesn't matter now.
I'd like to be one of my cats. They have a great life. Want to come sleep in the window sill with me?
Zeus,
You need to start a new thread before this one locks.
meow?
You're posts are killing me Sunny. Guess it's a perfect time to start a new thread. After a HPoroit style shower...