I'm baaaack!
First thread (Just need support) Previous thread (Yup, it stands for Rising Above It - I) last posts by SadDood and lost18, for continuity:
RAI-- Just re-read your whole sitch. In an ironic way, it's almost funny how much I can sympathize with you. Obviously, we are very different people, but I felt your NMMNG summation was very similar to mine (for the most part). I don't think it's really applicable to me personally. Yes, I'm the least confident I can ever remember right now, but it's getting better.
Mozza's posts were amazing IMHO. (Thank You Mozza). I had never really considered my own narcistic traits. But, that is one more thing I need to work on.
I can tell you've come so far in your journey. I too waffle between wanting to save the M or just get it over with. It's so hard to not be in control of others, for me anyway. As each day passes DBing makes much more sense. Really wish I had recognized the problems in the M prior to BD, and would have mentally prepared myself for the excruciating process.
As a physician, you are always expected to be confident, keep your cool and temper your emotions and rely on your training and wit. Doesn't it seem that is who you really are? It's amazing in this time of crisis we travel so far from who WE are. Everyone on this board refers to the "fog" of the WAW in an A, but I've never really seen the "fog" of the LBS. Maybe that's the whole point of DBing. To get out of your own "fog". Sorry, I have a problem with rambling. Really wish I had your ability to maintain brevity and conciseness with your words. STFUing around the W has been easier lately, though. Doesn't seem like you have that problem.
You seem like such a good guy, despite not really being a "nice guy". I can definitely relate to always thinking of myself as the perfect son. You will get through this mess happier than you've ever been (yeah... it's easy to say, much harder to realize). So many excellent posts in this thread... will re-read.
SD,
thanks for the confidence booster. I agree with you. We are definitely in some sort of fog. I think of it like a purgatory. We are crossing over from the person we used to be to the person we want to be. The person we are today - in the midst of the ordeal - is really not yet the person who will emerge at the other end. It is like a a rebirth. You have to relearn even the simplest things - like an infant or an amputee. Hence the waffling, confusion, and the inability to do even simple things, like being civil. Complicating this is the fact that you cannot really share your ordeal and no one is really overseeing your destiny - like a parent or occupational therapist, if you want to continue the infant/amputee analogy. Actually, I take that back; G-d is still overseeing our destiny. I think I have to have more faith in the process. I have to let go and let G-d.
"Obviously, we are very different people..." I am not so sure we are so different. We are humans. We have flaws. We inadvertently neglected an important relationship in our lives.
"Really wish I had recognized the problems in the M prior to BD". Hmmm...If we had, we would not be here right now. The first challenge is to accept that we are here for a reason. Accepting our new reality is the excruciating part, no?
"Sorry, I have a problem with rambling." Don't apologize for rambling to me. I appreciate a nice thoughtful juicy post. I think that that my brevity with my W is actually pathologic. I know we are taught to go dark. But I hardly speak to my W
at all. When I do, I am actually pretty short with her most of the time. I don't think it is helping my sitch. It certainly does not make me very attractive to W. It also may make communication after D very difficult because I think she is beginning to resent me even more. I am having soooo much trouble being civil with her. I have a lot of anger. The brevity should be controlled, not used as a way of alienating WW. I know it, I just haven't been able to reign it in.
haven't been around here in a while, hope you are out having fun and GALing!
losty,
I wish I was. Unfortunately, I have been so busy. I will probably update more in my next thread. How's by you?
RAI
Another addition to the DB songbook. Thanks Mleigh4 for contributing.
"all in you" by Iration - Honest to goodness, this is a reggae version of ericmsant2's post "The star is inside you"! The lyrics to the song can be found in Mleigh4's thread. please visit her
thread and express your appreciation.
the DB songbook curator,
RAI
I am back, but only briefly. If my work is a considered a GAL activity – then I am the *GAL
king*
. I am so busy. I do not feel that I am doing very well in the GAL category. I
am spending more time with the kids. I
am still learning with a buddy at 6 AM. However, I went out with friends only twice in the last 2 months. My running has slacked a lot, too
and I am still lacking additional GAL activities. I am just so tired when I get home from work. After I put the kids to bed, I just want to cloister myself in my room, listen to some music and sleep –
if I don’t have more work to do. I also need to find some time to work on my finances in preparation for D. Also, my mother is ill and will be having
major surgery in a few weeks. I will be traveling. I was briefly home with her last week. With all the turmoil in my life, I have not been a great son. Pretty self absorbed. I am pretty exhausted. I am not eating well or sleeping well.
Some other issues I have been struggling with:
I no longer know how to relate to my WW. I have gone very dark. Although we are under the same roof, there is almost zero communication - aside from some incidental child-centered topics. I know I am going dark for
myself, and, in that respect, it has helped with detaching; but I am not sure how it will help me or my sitch in the long run. I think it is just causing my wife to resent me more. Here is an example that may illustrate my predicament:
My W is still in full swing with the A. Completely disrespectful. I have strong reason to believe that she brings OM to our house. I (or my ego, at least) feel violated and emasculated. In the midst of all this, WW prepared a lot of food for a recent holiday and exerted a lot of effort. She spent a lot of time cooking and the food was delicious. In the past I would have thanked her profusely and made sure the kids thanked her. Now that she is actively engaged in an A, I don’t feel particularly grateful for anything she does. Should I thank her? I, like Old Dog, have a lot of anger. I think I am wielding the silence like a sword against her. I know I am alienating her. I just can't stop perseverating over the "I betrayed you, I am disrespecting you, I am leaving you, but why can't we all just get along?" trope. **Mind-reading alert** "We're getting divorced. Put you ego aside and start to get along with me." I just can't seem to do this. I know it is my ego preventing me. I know I should rise above it. I just can't seem to make that leap. I just can't seem to let it go. So much anger. I don't know how to be civil without feeling like I am condoning what she is doing. I don't know how to walk the line between making her start to do some heavy lifting and alienating her.
Worse, although I am superdad, working like a mother----er, and coming home earlier, she still focuses on the negative things I have done and maligns me anyway. I overheard her complaining to her enabler-in-chief, my step-MIL, that I kicked her out of the BR. She complained that I did not thank her once for all her effort, that I am setting a bad example for the kids by being ungrateful. She constructs the narrative to justify her actions. I get that. I know I should not care what she or MIL think about me. But her attitude towards me can potentially dictate the outcome of custody. Can't it?
I just don't feel strong enough right now.
RAI
P.S. I am having serious compatibility issues with the mobile version of this DB bulletin board. Was there some upgrade? Anyone know how to fix?
RAI
P.S. I am having serious compatibility issues with the mobile version of this DB bulletin board. Was there some upgrade? Anyone know how to fix?
RAI
I didn't know their was a mobile version, I use it on my android phone through a web browser, it seems to work fine that way.
What kind of phone?
RAI Just read up on your sitch after your post :
Seems like Caliguy and I are of the same mind. It is about control. Nothing else.
RAI
P.S. Caliguy, our sitches are very similar. Right down to the BD timing. I have been meaning to check out your thread in more detail. Just haven't had time.
My thread is a very long one ... longer than I ever cared it to be.
Reading yours I came away with a few things, sometimes different eyes will expose things in a light that may be of use to you.
Appears to me your W definitely 'affair-ed down' and from what I gathered in your posts you somewhat have been a doormat this whole time, not to sound mean or insensitive but its just the vibe I got, took you a bit to boot her from the BR, yet she still continues to enjoy the house, the phone and most of all the A .... Total cake eater and she is getting fat n happy at your expense.
Your GAL's up to this point to me make no effort to even hint at mystery, you are a good dude, work, come home, maybe run ... but you really need to get out of your comfort zone and do something for YOU ... I get the kids/work/house/family ... all that ... but truth is its predictable and more of the same is it not? I have not seen any mention of true GAL's 180's even your PMA seems to be ice cold bitterness towards your WW .... do you want to save the M, or are you just going through the motions till the D goes through?
I think its time to stand up for yourself, you seriously need some boundaries here, cut off the funds, stop financing your W's A, cut the phone .. you have the records already .. all the proof you need ... time to make her realize there are consequences for her actions because from what I read over the past couple months the only thing she has had to change is sleeping in a bed away from you where she can TM OM even more.
Just my observations.
P.S. I am having serious compatibility issues with the mobile version of this DB bulletin board. Was there some upgrade? Anyone know how to fix?
RAI
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click "classic"
Couple of things, RAI:
"With all the turmoil in my life, I have not been a great son. Pretty self absorbed. I am pretty exhausted. I am not eating well or sleeping well." Don't stress about this. You have to put on YOUR oxygen mask first THEN help others. Take care of you, hence getting a life.
I know you talk about going dark, but in my experience, you can never go truly dark while living in the same home. That's what I struggled with. It helped me to ALLOW myself to be myself and let go of some of the anger that was turning into resentment. I didn't forgive/forget, but I let it go for me. I didn't pursue, ask about her day, but if she asked about me, I'd allow myself to answer, say thank yous, even make a joke once in a while. It was killing me to be cold and angry. Ultimately I had to move out to where NOW I can go dark and control the interactions I have to ensure they are positive - that's key. If you don't or can't have positive interactions with WW, why would she want to come back?
I do understand the hurt, anger and disrespect. While she's having the affair, you aren't her friend, but as the mother of your children, you coparent and treat as a neighbor. Neighbors say thank you for cooking and even listen to stories, but go back to the main focus of their own families quickly.
I'm not telling you you have to move out or even that you should. It was at a point where I needed to for my sanity and to truly go dark. Not sure how anyone does that living together in the middle of the affair. I would assume cake eating runs rampant in those sitches.
As far as moving out ... I get the self preservation things I do ... but she is the one choosing this .. its the same but a bigger platform as the MBR issue that has been discussed here.
Its YOUR place, she chooses to have the A, disrespect you, the M and the family .. she goes, or you sell the house and you both find your own places (That's what happened in my case, I was just not on the boards here during that time) but by allowing them to keep their footing in your house they are still driving the car, cake eating and not fully experiencing life without you.
I didn't forgive/forget, but I let it go for me. I didn't pursue, ask about her day, but if she asked about me, I'd allow myself to answer, say thank yous, even make a joke once in a while.
I do understand the hurt, anger and disrespect. While she's having the affair, you aren't her friend, but as the mother of your children, you coparent and treat as a neighbor. Neighbors say thank you for cooking and even listen to stories, but go back to the main focus of their own families quickly.
RAI
This place ripken speaks of is somewhere I've been a long time, and its rough. I've been living with W for 5 months now and its a real struggle knowing she may be out with OM at times. For me there hasn't been much cake eating other than communication where I maintain eye contact, validate and just listen. I'm polite for the most part but I rarely initial conversation with her, I let her initiate it. We split bills and for the most part she doesn't let OM have any contact with children. Shes mostly respectful and polite to me, even offering to do nice things at times.
I understand your situation is more complicated and you might have to enforce boundaries. She will likely spew and make you seem like the bad guy to anyone who will listen. However, you know the difference. Shes the one who has to prove shes doing right, but eventually the truth will come out. If you need to be dark right now for your own sanity and so you don't react negatively, then so be it.
I know you don't want to seem like your OK with whats happening or even support it, and I struggle with that feeling also. Being in the "had an awakening and moving ahead of life with or without her" phase makes me very uncomfortable at times.
Basically, the way I see it now. We get to that point where we let go of them and move forward and "have an awakening". They see us as no longer an obstacle in their path to OM. Make no mistake, they see OM as the only path to being happy.
If we get in that way we are the enemy. We have to remove ourselves as that enemy so things can play out. Because they will play out regardless. At the end when things do play out, and it will fail, our WAS can then see how wrong they were. They were the enemy all along.
If all they can see if us being the enemy then they can never see their role in it.
You have to find a place where you can not show your anger anymore and appear as if your moving forward. One day she will think "hey, why is he so happy, maybe I messed up!!".
DB'ing seems to go against what we feel will work, what we feel has been wrong so far, time for something new. My take on this anyway.
I agree with Cali. In my sitch while I moved out we are selling the house and she is gettin her own place. Maybe that's an option for you too?
First of all, Cadet: I used to use my iphone 6 safari browser. I still do, but the layout changed. It used to be an exact replica of the desktop layout. At some point in the last 2 weeks, the layout is different and all the icons, word spacing, typography, and fonts are messed up. Is there someone you can talk to about making sure it is compatible with iOS.
Thanks, Caliguy for you reply. It
is blunt. But this is all anonymous, so I have nothing to hide or hide from except my own psyche.
My thread is a very long one ... longer than I ever cared it to be.
Sorry for your sitch. I really do want to read up on it. But first I want to reply to you.
...sometimes different eyes will expose things in a light that may be of use to you.
always appreciated. What I'm doing is clearly not working. So I obviously have to change it up... or redefine my objectives. I am trying to process everything you are saying.
Appears to me your W definitely 'affair-ed down' and from what I gathered in your posts you somewhat have been a doormat this whole time, not to sound mean or insensitive but its just the vibe I got, took you a bit to boot her from the BR, yet she still continues to enjoy the house, the phone and most of all the A .... Total cake eater and she is getting fat n happy at your expense.
If by "affaired-down", you mean hunkered down into the affair, then you are absolutely correct. I
have been a doormat. I simmer by myself and glare at her, hoping she will see it and feel bad. Very pathetic - like a two-year-old - I know. At first, I was wary because I did not want to "rock the boat" in front of the kids. Mozza set me straight (thanks again, Mozza) and made me realize that defending my own honor in front of my kids is important, too, and sets a better example. That prompted booting her out of BR. I have thought about cutting off her phone and credit cards. However, I have been advised by my L to continue to pay for her phone:
"I would continue to pay for her phone at this point.""Since you are still married, you may be liable for at least one-half of any credit card debt in her name. So, it may be best to continue with business as usual since you can get the statements and can monitor the activity. If she is doing something out of the ordinary with the credit cards, please contact me to discuss further."I will also add that my sister, whom I trust very much, has given me the exact same advice. I get that my L and my sister are not trying to save my M, thus their advice will run counter to DB. But they are trying to save ME! And as you intimated below, perhaps I am not truly interested in saving my M. I will address that below. You have forced me to revisit my Ls email (quoted above). I just realized that WW
has been doing things out of the ordinary with her credit cards: increased spending at Nordstrom's, personal grooming stuff, and she gave the number to my MIL. At first I dismissed it because we were preparing for the Bar-Mitzvah. Cali,
you are opening my eyes as I write this. Why do I have to provide her with anything right now? for the bar-mitzvah or otherwise? Also, it is VERY dangerous letting MIL have the card number. OMG! I can feel the 2x4 coming. What an idiot I have been. I just have three more strong reservations.
1) What to do when DB advice runs counter to legal advice?
2) Won't these actions just increase the hostility? as you noted, I am already hostile. Does it not make more sense to just D so I can truly detach?
3) No offense, Cali (or anyone else on this board), but it's sometimes hard to take advice from an anonymous individual who is not truly in my shoes. Although I trust you and your motives completely, you don't stand to suffer my consequences. I know I am free to take or leave your advice, but I know you care, so I am asking you: why should I take your advice?
(It seems like I have discovered a very deep-seated fear of making decisions on my own. I think I am unfairly leaning on you now, so you don't have to answer #3 if you don't want to.)
Your GAL's up to this point to me make no effort to even hint at mystery, you are a good dude, work, come home, maybe run ... but you really need to get out of your comfort zone and do something for YOU ... I get the kids/work/house/family ... all that ... but truth is its predictable and more of the same is it not? I have not seen any mention of true GAL's 180's
Running a 1/2 marathon is NOT more of the same, but for the most part you are absolutely right - I am predictable. I have been thinking long and hard about other GAL activities. Something I always wanted to do. Truth is, I am already pretty content going to movies, going out to eat from time-to-time, and socializing with friends. I don't see myself sky diving, or learning an instrument, or joining a book club. Should I do something just to do it? I really want it to be something that I will enjoy and that will be "me". I really already enjoy the things I am doing now (the running, learning). I know it is more of the same, but I can't think of anything. Any suggestions how to tease out something new?
even your PMA seems to be ice cold bitterness towards your WW .... do you want to save the M, or are you just going through the motions till the D goes through?
Not sure. I want to move on so I can detach, or detach so I can move on. My whole community is urging me to move on and drop WW like a bad habit. They are actually waiting for me. And I am getting to a point where I don't really need her anymore. I can pay the bills, parent, cook, do my own laundry. What am I trying to save here? Maybe my ego wants her back, so I can "win". Not a very good reason.
No, not just observations. Inherent in your comments is advice. If you give advice, you have an obligation to stand by it. Where are the vets who are going to say: "Cali is right on! You have to start doing things for yourself! Stop leaning on the L and your sister. BE A MAN."? I am scared. I totally admit it. Fear has dominated me for the last 2 years.
Cali, I really appreciated your post. Thanks so much for taking the time. I do hope you will reply.
RAI
First of all, Cadet: I used to use my iphone 6 safari browser.
I still do, but the layout changed.
It used to be an exact replica of the desktop layout.
At some point in the last 2 weeks, the layout is different and all the icons, word spacing, typography, and fonts are messed up.
Is there someone you can talk to about making sure it is compatible with iOS.
This is the first I am becoming aware of this.
I was looking on the UBB website to see if they had any info.
I will ask Virginia if any changes have been made to new UBB code.
As it appears UBB is going mobile, google has apparently made some changes to those sites that are not classified "mobile" sites.
It is not readily apparent from my cursory look at their website what exactly has happened.
I am assuming that this didnt help?
P.S. I am having serious compatibility issues with the mobile version of this DB bulletin board. Was there some upgrade? Anyone know how to fix?
RAI
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click "classic"
for some reason, the site is coming up normal on my phone, now. If it goes haywire again, I will look for the "classic" layout link.
Thanks Cadet and Fogg.
RAI
I have the same issue on my android phone, the mobile webpage just goes crazy. The icons are spaced out and huge, you cant read anything, etc. I just scroll to the bottom and change to the desktop (classic) view.
I didn't know there was a mobile version (excuse the hijack!) So can I use the mobile version when surfing using my iphone in the UK?? (of particular interest atm as my ipad is having a meltdown!!)
Its not really a mobile version of the website or app. Most phones browsers(or maybe its the website) reformat the page so it can be viewed easier on a phones smaller screen.
In this case it just doesn't work, but you can still use your phone with the desktop view to check the site. Its just awkward typing out posts.
Wow! Rip!
While I was writing my Epic Tome to Caliguy, I did not see that you posted.
Thanks for the reminder to take care of myself. I need it from time to time.
I just re-read parts of my previous thread. Sometimes I think I am crazy because I feel like I keep getting stuck on the same things over and over. It seems like I had the same gripes a month ago. Will I never learn???
As Cali pointed out, there is a ton of cake eating happening. I don't want to move out right now. All the sources I checked, including many on this site, say that it can affect custody decisions. Also, the prevailing sentiment is that WW should move out if she is having the A. Unfortunately, I cannot legally ask her to move out. I am ok staying in the house right now. I think I just have to make a better effort and GAL, PMA. Your point about treating W like a neighbor is well-taken. P.S. I know Sandi says no flowers, but it is not my style to be an ungrateful pr--k. So I bought her some flowers in a vase and presented them to her in front of the kids so they could see a good example of gratitude. If she asks (but she won't), I will tell her that I just wanted to thank her for the cooking and I wanted to set an example for the kids about being grateful. I really would love to ask her when was the last time she thanked me. But to steal a line from Caliguy, I am going to drink that STFU smoothie.
I know your sitch was different because you had the living co-parenting arrangements in place beforehand. I kind of envy you that you are not under the same roof (you need to update your profile). But I think I can do this for a bit longer.
One of the things I learned in re-reading my thread is that the outcome should not affect my actions. It should not matter whether I want to save the M or not. I should DB because I should DB. It is good for me regardless of the outcome. Why can't I get that into my thick skull?
RAI
Toots,
stop by any time.
RAI
This place ripken speaks of is somewhere I've been a long time, and its rough. I've been living with W for 5 months now and its a real struggle knowing she may be out with OM at times. For me there hasn't been much cake eating other than communication where I maintain eye contact, validate and just listen. I'm polite for the most part but I rarely initial conversation with her, I let her initiate it. We split bills and for the most part she doesn't let OM have any contact with children. Shes mostly respectful and polite to me, even offering to do nice things at times.
I understand your situation is more complicated and you might have to enforce boundaries. She will likely spew and make you seem like the bad guy to anyone who will listen. However, you know the difference. Shes the one who has to prove shes doing right, but eventually the truth will come out. If you need to be dark right now for your own sanity and so you don't react negatively, then so be it.
I know you don't want to seem like your OK with whats happening or even support it, and I struggle with that feeling also. Being in the "had an awakening and moving ahead of life with or without her" phase makes me very uncomfortable at times.
Basically, the way I see it now. We get to that point where we let go of them and move forward and "have an awakening". They see us as no longer an obstacle in their path to OM. Make no mistake, they see OM as the only path to being happy.
If we get in that way we are the enemy. We have to remove ourselves as that enemy so things can play out. Because they will play out regardless. At the end when things do play out, and it will fail, our WAS can then see how wrong they were. They were the enemy all along.
If all they can see if us being the enemy then they can never see their role in it.
You have to find a place where you can not show your anger anymore and appear as if your moving forward. One day she will think "hey, why is he so happy, maybe I messed up!!".
DB'ing seems to go against what we feel will work, what we feel has been wrong so far, time for something new. My take on this anyway.
And what an excellent take it is. I really feel like you get it. You totally get it. It seems like you have processed it better and are managing better. I think I will have to think of it the way you do, but also start enforcing some more boundaries. I know boundaries are for my protection, but she will see them as me being the enemy, won't she? How do I set boundaries (take away Daddy's credit card etc...) but simultaneously remove myself as the enemy that you described in your post?
RAI
What I'm doing is clearly not working. So I obviously have to change it up... or redefine my objectives. I am trying to process everything you are saying.
One of the lessons in DB, not every sitch is the same right .. Do what works, I detached (well for the most part .. truth is I was/am horrible at it at times.) and started looking at my W less like my W, more like a science project. Keep in mind my sitch is of the MLC variety but the basics are the same.
If by "affaired-down", you mean hunkered down into the affair, then you are absolutely correct.
No, if you research 'Affaired Down' it implies you are the prize here. She picked a goof who does not measure up to you nor what you can provide ... he is the quick feel good drug but you are the steady healthy diet .... currently she is high on him and getting fat off you if you get my drift.
1) What to do when DB advice runs counter to legal advice?
This is no different than when DB advice that counters others advice, your gut, your religious beliefs ... truth is you are driving and in control with what you do.
Your lawyer and sis I would assume have your interests at heart, just as your friends .. but typically these are people who are not saving YOUR marriage either. Legally and financially it would have made more sense (and cents) for me to go through and get D, In my heart I could not do this .. my gut .. could not do it.
Bottom line its your choice, it truly is.
2) Won't these actions just increase the hostility? as you noted, I am already hostile. Does it not make more sense to just D so I can truly detach?
RAI ... yes they might increase the hostility .. but they will also show you are a man who refuses to live in an open marriage, have your W rub your nose in it as she TM OM in the house you share, ya know .. the same one built around your family .. the very family W is chosing to destroy.
3) No offense, Cali (or anyone else on this board), but it's sometimes hard to take advice from an anonymous individual who is not truly in my shoes. Although I trust you and your motives completely, you don't stand to suffer my consequences. I know I am free to take or leave your advice, but I know you care, so I am asking you: why should I take your advice?
No offense taken .. if anything that's pure honesty and I respect that. Sure no need to take my advice nor anyone elses for that matter, its you who has to live your live and its you who will face the consequences of the choices you make. And often there are conflicting views on what to do what not to do ... again .. YOUR sitch and you have to trust yourself.
My motives here are simple, I came here a hurt angry little boy, I was taught by a collection of amazing people here the process of DB, there comes a time when you realize its not so much about saving the M, its saving the individual .... that's the truth, once you become independent regardless of what the WAS does ... seems to change everything. My advice reading your sitch ... you are not going to 'nice' her back.
If you want a D, that's fine .. if you want to continue living in an open marriage .. again your choice, I just do not see anything changing in your sitch until you start actually applying the tactics DB teaches.
Running a 1/2 marathon is NOT more of the same, but for the most part you are absolutely right - I am predictable. I have been thinking long and hard about other GAL activities. Something I always wanted to do. Truth is, I am already pretty content going to movies, going out to eat from time-to-time, and socializing with friends. I don't see myself sky diving, or learning an instrument, or joining a book club. Should I do something just to do it? I really want it to be something that I will enjoy and that will be "me". I really already enjoy the things I am doing now (the running, learning). I know it is more of the same, but I can't think of anything. Any suggestions how to tease out something new?
I am not saying you need to run out and buy leathers and join a biker club (like I did ...lol) But ... ok lets go with what I did over the past year or so.
*Coached S's baseball team
*Took a class at Church and went through the RCIA became Catholic
*Bought a Harley, go riding often
*Joined a Softball team
*Joined a Sunday Football team
*Met up with friends for dinner/drinks/convo more often
*Focused myself more into work, created side projects increased efficiency
Ok .. so those were my golden GAL's ... some I did during the M, most new .. notice a trend .. NONE had anything to do with W's approval nor attempting to win her back .. all for me, made me feel good, a part of something, for ME
Meet-ups are another good thing, maybe try one of those .. no commitment from you .. but a total 180.
No, not just observations. Inherent in your comments is advice. If you give advice, you have an obligation to stand by it. Where are the vets who are going to say: "Cali is right on! You have to start doing things for yourself! Stop leaning on the L and your sister. BE A MAN."? I am scared. I totally admit it. Fear has dominated me for the last 2 years.
Cali, I really appreciated your post. Thanks so much for taking the time. I do hope you will reply.
RAI
I am not saying do not lean on your L nor your Sis ... but yeah .. in a sense ... your L, sis, me .. no one here has to live the life you live, thats you ... are you happy where you are at? If so .. keep on doing what you are doing .. if not .. change it ... its that simple.
Myself .. my W and the A are over ... but I have said these words
"I will not finance your A"
"The A you are involved with is disrespectful to me, our S, our M, our family, not to mention yours and I will not live in an open marriage"
"D is not what I want and though I respect your decision, make no mistake about it, I have no interest in us being friends after it is final, I would never keep a friend who has treated me as you have"
A strange thing happens when you stand up for yourself ... your self esteem builds, your self worth improves and you realize you are the prize, you will be just dandy regardless. Once you feel this ... and set your boundaries on what you will and will not stand for, the WAW may spew and throw a fit .. but they learn to respect you are no longer going to be pushed around.
Read up on Sandis WW threads .. may give you a new perspective.
Stasky's Threads are golden too .. the old ones when he had a different name.
Someone else will have to help you there, unfortunately. I'm horrible with boundaries but lucky that for the most part I haven't needed many. She will spew at you and see you as the enemy but some boundaries in your case are needed and are more important for her respecting you. Respect in this case trumps the enemy view.
Only thing I can say is make sure you really have a well thought out plan with them before you do anything. Messing up certain ones can cause more issues than not doing it at all.
Cali and Fogg, my considered replies will be forthcoming. In the meantime, I have a quick question. I am getting together with someone tonight. I don't want to tell my W with whom, but I also don't want / need to keep it a secret from kids. They will ask, and I don't want to sound secretive. What do I tell children? What do I tell W? I don't want to lie or make something up.
A speedy reply would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
RAI
PS. What was starsky's old username?
Why don't you want to be secretive? It wouldn't hurt to be somewhat mysterious to W without having to lie.
You could just say "I'm just going out for a little" or "I'm just meeting a friend" when the kids ask. That's generally what me and W say when kids ask in our situation.
We don't ask each other directly either way. Kids sometimes ask "who? or Where?" afterwards, and we just tell them don't worry about it.
Hey Fogg,
I did not have time to reply yesterday. But I did see your post and took your advice. I did not tell my W where I was going and the kids were curious but did not press further. Thanks for your timely response. I will use it going forward.
Someone else will have to help you there, unfortunately. I'm horrible with boundaries but lucky that for the most part I haven't needed many. She will spew at you and see you as the enemy but some boundaries in your case are needed and are more important for her respecting you. Respect in this case trumps the enemy view.
Only thing I can say is make sure you really have a well thought out plan with them before you do anything. Messing up certain ones can cause more issues than not doing it at all.
I again pressed my L about the phone, because I would really like to institute that barrier. I asked why I need to keep the phone and monitor her usage. Her reply:
"I do not know where the information will lead us at this point but, it may be relevant concerning your children. As such, even though you have the history, I would think to be able to show that the contact/conduct continues would be beneficial."I have heard this from another L as well. So it is helpful in D proceedings but detrimental to DB. I know that laying down the "I will not support your phone usage as long as you are using it to disrespect me by living in an open marriage" would send a clear signal. I am torn.
I had convo with W yesterday. details to follow...
RAI
RAI
RAI... homework for you
Have a read:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1I think you may benefit from sandi's wisdom here ... she really offers some priceless insight to the WW frame of mind. There are 3 treads this is the first.
**disclaimer: very juicy thread**
Cali,
if you research 'Affaired Down' it implies you are the prize here. She picked a goof who does not measure up to you nor what you can provide ... he is the quick feel good drug but you are the steady healthy diet .... currently she is high on him and getting fat off you if you get my drift.
True, true and true.
Bottom line its your choice, it truly is.
Got it. In fact, in re-reading your last post, I think this quote was the crux of your entire argument. That, and that I am not truly applying DB principles. Looks like I have some more thinking to do.
Last night, I was talking to my W. I began in my usual passive aggressive tone. She was also very defensive. I told her that we have to start telling the kids. W feels that our S11 had issues before BD. She still largely denies that the breakdown in R has effect on the kids. I also was a bit annoyed because the housekeeper came two weeks in a row, and we agreed that we cannot afford weekly housekeeping. She wanted to know how much money we have in savings and I refused to tell her. This really ticked her off, because she feels it is her money. I told her, that she has everything she needs and asked her why she needs to know? I told her what I thought the realities of the situation are: financial fallout of D, emotional fallout for children. I reiterated that I did not choose D, but I am ready to proceed. Then, for some reason, my tone softened. I clearly stated an
ultimatum to her. I consciously and unabashedly stole it (with modifications for my sitch) from OnGuard. I told her that I will not live in an open marriage and before I would even consider reconciliation she would have to:
1) voluntarily go NC with OM
2) voluntarily initiate 100% transparency
3) We would have to move to a new city
4) She would need to see a psychiatrist
5) She would have to have true remorse for her actions
6) If the above conditions were met, we would have to then go to a MC of my choosing
I also told her that:
1) D is her choice and that she has full responsibility/control over the decision
2) much damage (especially relationships) has been done and will need to be repaired
3) the bulk of the work will be painful and difficult, especially for her, and especially for the first few months. I did not sugar coat it.
4) Even if she were somehow willing to do the work - which I doubt she will be, I may still decline the offer to reconcile
5) I will not reconcile for financial reasons or for the kids
6) a new relationship can be built out of the ashes of the old, broken one, and that others have come back from the brink successfully.
What followed was very weird: we sat opposite each other for about an hour, barely talking at all, while she processed what I had said.
She asked only two things of any substance over the entire time:
1) "Why would you be willing to reconcile?" I told her that I may not be willing, but if I did it is because I believe in the institution of marriage.
2) "What if you cannot find the love for me again?" To which I replied, as usual, that love is a choice.
It may not have happened exactly like this, but I ended by saying, all you have to do is ask me four words "What will it take?" (Stolen from Starsky - in OnGuards thread). In the meantime, we continue towards D.
RAI
Cali,
I read every post in those threads about a month ago. Awesome. My previous post actually has Sandi's fingerprints all over it. Nevertheless, perhaps I have not internalized it properly. I will re-read sometime.
Thanks for everything.
RAI
WOW - RAI. That is a lot! Nice job with standing your ground. I guess the only question I had is did SHE bring this up by showing remorse or did YOU do the majority of the talking.
If it's the latter, no matter how true and valid it is, I wonder if it falls on deaf ears due to her still being in the fog and not showing remorse.
If you gave her 6 things SHE has to do, why would she want to go through all of that, if she is still in the fog and didn't approach you first?
I guess the only question I had is did SHE bring this up by showing remorse or did YOU do the majority of the talking.
It's a very valid question. I did ALL the talking and most likely it
will fall on deaf ears due to her still being in the fog and not showing remorse.
I hesitated to put this in my previous post, but I truly do NOT think she has what it takes to do the "work". Either way, I put it out there. Whatever happens, I still feel like it need to be stated clearly for her.
Regardless, it does not affect my course of action and I am proceeding with mediation.
RAI
Well, well, look at you RAI!
Just a few comments (apologies - I've only had time to skim the last few pages this morning).
Can you be more specific about the lawyer's advice conflicting with DB? It's not really a one size fits all kind of thing.
Your finances - a few threads back you said you were needing to educate yourself about the household finances, and now you mention your MIL has your credit card. I'm somewhat glad to hear that you know how much is in savings, but please reassure me you have a full handle on the household expenses (how much is being spent, where the funds are coming from, what the bills actually are, whose name is on what etc.
Now that you've told her all of this - don't repeat yourself. If the time comes - it should be her who initiates the discussion.
One last thing - about telling the kids. This is entirely from my own perspective and is influenced by my situation. When STBX left, I pushed for not telling the kids the full truth and just saying that he had to live closer to work for the time being. I viewed it as "keeping the road home smooth". This blew up when my daughter was the one who revealed him to be living with his girlfriend when she asked me if he loved her more than me because he stroked her arm and slept in the same bed as her. Your situation is not as extreme (although it is pretty bad, as you suspect OM to be in your house when you aren't there). All I can say, is that now, I regret not telling D7 the truth from the beginning. I thought I was protecting her, but instead I became another adult who lied to her about her life. I won't do that again.
Glad to hear this new fierceness!
RAI
Bravo on throwing it out there ... thats called 'taking a stance'
Now....
Now that you've told her all of this - don't repeat yourself. If the time comes - it should be her who initiates the discussion.
X2 with the biggest blow horn I can use
You have just drawn the line in the sand, stated your boundaries .. your terms and conditions ... she will test you ... believe me .. its coming .. hold your ground like your life depends on it .. because in many ways life as you know it .. want it .. it does.
Any waiver ... compromise... flinch your WW will run with it. Dig in and get ready.
Hi Raliced,
I get a sense that you and I feel similar about our WS. I am at the point where I am finally ready to move on. I think the ultimatum was more for me than for WW, I don't think there is a snowball's chance in h-e-double-hockey-sticks of her actually stepping up and meeting my conditions. Even if she did, I would say no reconciliation. It was just liberating for me to know that I gave her every opportunity. Hand it to her, WW never misses an opportunity to miss and opportunity. I don't think she is a very good person, to boot.
For the first time on this site, I am saying unequivocally that
I am done. I don't even feel too bad about it. It is sad, but I am ok with it. I know my worth, and I am worth way more.
Can you be more specific about the lawyer's advice conflicting with DB?
Sandi (and others) suggested that I cut her phone off and make he feel consequence of her actions. My L is suggesting that if I have more concerns about her ability to parent, I will need real-time evidence that she is a pretty absent mother. Her texting record is very supportive of this.
Your finances - a few threads back you said you were needing to educate yourself about the household finances, and now you mention your MIL has your credit card. I'm somewhat glad to hear that you know how much is in savings, but please reassure me you have a full handle on the household expenses (how much is being spent, where the funds are coming from, what the bills actually are, whose name is on what etc.
Yes, I am developing a better handle on things. I am also discussing with my L. i can't elaborate now, because I got paged. More to come...
RAI
Can you be more specific about the lawyer's advice conflicting with DB?
Sandi (and others) suggested that I cut her phone off and make he feel consequence of her actions. My L is suggesting that if I have more concerns about her ability to parent, I will need real-time evidence that she is a pretty absent mother. Her texting record is very supportive of this.
RAI- I have a few more comments, but gotta get the rented steam cleaner back to the store. On this one - I would definitely go with the lawyer's advice. If you live an area where they actually take that kind of evidence into account - take full advantage of it. That being said- I would check with your lawyer to see if you could just subpoena her phone records if it comes to it. After all, she'd probably be even more indiscreet on her own account.
Now that you've told her all of this - don't repeat yourself. If the time comes - it should be her who initiates the discussion.
X2 with the biggest blow horn I can use
raliced and Cali,
I will *never* repeat the ultimatum again. I was
very clear with my demands. That said, she will never initiate. Too weak. Too far gone. I was going to say I've lost her, but it may be more appropriate to say she's lost me.
One last thing - about telling the kids. This is entirely from my own perspective and is influenced by my situation. When STBX left, I pushed for not telling the kids the full truth and just saying that he had to live closer to work for the time being. I viewed it as "keeping the road home smooth".... All I can say, is that now, I regret not telling D7 the truth from the beginning. I thought I was protecting her, but instead I became another adult who lied to her about her life. I won't do that again.
thank you for sharing that experience. I will definitely learn from it. Mozza and others have shown me that "not rocking the boat" has gotten me nowhere and even lowered my WWs respect for me. Furthermore, I really do not like lying (even so-called white lies), especially since my W does it so liberally. Lying has become a real trigger for me, so I try to stay away from it. I already told my W that we need to talk to the children. MWD sent out a bulk email with a sample script for how to tell children without lying. (I am happy to include MWDs original version in its entirety if anyone is interested - I assume most have seen it). Here is a script I am preparing based on MWDs advice.
Mommie and I have not gotten along in a long time, and we have been disagreeing lately on a lot of things, mostly what should happen with our marriage. And you can’t have a marriage without both people agreeing on the marriage. The last thing we ever wanted to do was to cause you pain. We love you so much. You are the most important treasures in my life. That is never going to change. (We tried very hard to make things work), but we just could not agree.
Since it takes two people to want to make a marriage work, and we don’t have that, we have decided that what we need to do is to get a divorce.
We love you so much etc...
I don't think I need to mention to the kids what their M is doing, but I suspect they already know. And if they don't, they will figure it out as they get older. If the kids do ask me, I am certainly not going to be complicit in her lying to them. I can always tell them to ask their M.
thoughts?
RAI
I have another unrelated question for the wiser amongst you. Since booting WW from BR, she has taken to sleeping with the kids in their beds. There is a spare bedroom in the basement, but I don't think she mentally capitulated the BR, so she is still going to sleep on the living room sofa, and ends up in D6 or S3's bed sometime in the middle of the night. I would not care where she sleeps, but I think it is unhealthy for D6 and S3 to have their M sleep in their bed. They are already excessively attached to her, and I think this is fostering an even more unhealthy attachment for them. Is this a boundary I should enforce for the kids' sake?
If she contests, I can retort: "Really? do you really think it is healthy for kids to have their mother sleeping in their beds every night? You are an adult - find your own place to sleep."
RAI
Hello RAI,
You are my favorite Canadiens' fan.
I am not sure how to advise about re: your W sleeping with your children. Hmmm. I get your point, but 6 y/o and 3 y/o doesn't seem over-the-top to me. Others may disagree.
As for how to inform your children, I think what you posted is good:
"Since it takes two people to want to make a marriage work, and we don’t have that, we have decided that what we need to do is to get a divorce. We love you so much etc"Children will think it is somehow their fault. I would also mention that it is
not their fault at all.
What do others think?
Hang in there RAI!
Bob
Bob (not named after the Golden Jet, are you?
),
You are my favorite Canadiens' fan.
Easy to say, now that they've been eliminated. You are now my favorite Backhawk's fan. Go Original Six!!! (except Toronto and Boston)
Children will think it is somehow their fault. I would also mention that it is not their fault at all.
I actually have more in the script that I did not include, for brevity's sake to the effect of "We love you so much and you are not to blame. You are the best children in the world. etc...". Yeah, it is a work in progress, though.
RAI
You are my favorite Canadiens' fan.
Easy to say, now that they've been eliminated. You are now my favorite Backhawk's fan. Go Original Six!!!
I actually have more in the script that I did not include, for brevity's sake to the effect of "We love you so much and you are not to blame. You are the best children in the world. etc...". Yeah, it is a work in progress, though.
LOL RAI, no I wasn't named after Bobby Hull, and I see your point--But I still think you'd be my favorite Canadiens' fan if they were in the Final. Of course, I'd be rootng for the Hawks. What a Final series that would be, huh?
Anyway, back to your sitch, I'm glad to hear that you planned to include that, too.
I wish you all the best!
Bob
What a Final series that would be, huh?
maybe next year!
RAI
What a Final series that would be, huh?
maybe next year!
RAI
Here's hoping!!
Does anyone else think that my W sleeping in her children's bed every night is odd, or is it just me? I am just as happy to choose my battles and not pick a fight.
RAI
RAI- I didn't weigh in on this earlier today because in my house, my daughters have been firmly entrenched in my bed ever since their father left. So, naturally, I guess I don't view it as abnormal or odd - but that's because it's my reality. At least for now(I'm hoping when they go visit their paternal grandmother this summer, we will have the opportunity to adjust).
That being said - it's my kids insistence, not mine, that has led to this circumstance.
I don't mind when my kids come into my bed. In fact I appreciate it more now than ever. I also don't mind if they go to my Ws bed. In fact, I think co-sleeping in a parent's bed is a fine arrangement - no problems with it. In some cultures it is even the norm.
HOWEVER, My beef is that WW is going into the the kids bed. that is what I find odd. it's one thing to fall asleep in your child's bed from time to time. But nightly? I am not so sure.
RAI
I may be off here, but this is just my opinion from what I have experienced and done myself.
When I began to set boundaries I used them incorrectly. I would set a boundary and feel good about it and then look for the next situation to apply it too. Its very easy to incorrectly use a boundary as a way to control the situation instead of its real purpose.
To me, you already stated you don't have an issue with them sleeping in the same bed, just which bed. If it were about the attachment it would be about the sleeping, not where they sleep.
It helps to question ourselves at times and see where our motivation comes from. Is this something that really bothers you, or are you just bothered by the entire situation and finding small outlets to control things. Boundaries are very misunderstood at times, and easily done wrong.
If it were me personally, I would leave this alone for now.
Fogg,
Point taken. That is precisely why I poll my esteemed DBers. I really value your opinion.
When I think about a boundary, I ask myself: how is the proposed boundary supposed to protect me. And, you are right, it does not protect me to ask W to stop going sleeping in the kids bed. It would just be vindictive.
The behavior truly does bother me for a number of reasons - but I can transcend it.
Did you ever notice how many DBers don't go to the bathroom without analyzing it, yet our WWs do everything without any thought whatsoever, or out of pure emotion without reasoning? We really suffer from analysis paralysis sometimes.
RAI
Here is the article by MWD about what to tell the children. I hope she does not mind me reproducing it here. I think it is completely open access. Cadet, feel free to remove if you feel it is a violation of rules.
Kids, Your Father Wants a Divorce
5/7/15
No one, especially not parents, takes the decision to divorce lightly. Most people flounder in their marriages for long periods of time and question themselves endlessly before throwing in the towel.
The last thing parents want to do is to hurt their children. That's why when it comes time to break the news to the kids, people want guidelines to help minimize the pain. That's when they turn to the experts.
Most advice is sound- don't talk about divorce unless you're certain it's going to happen, remind the kids the divorce isn't their fault and that they will be taken care of and loved by both parents, outline the ways in which their lives will change and/or remain the same and don't burden them unnecessarily with details and so on.
However, there is a consensus among professionals about a particular piece of advice with which I vehemently disagree.
It goes like this- When breaking the news to the kids, parents should always present a united front. Regardless of the reasons for the divorce, parents are instructed to say that it is a decision made by both of them.
Really?
The truth is that most divorces in our country are unilateral decisions- one person wants out and the other desperately wants to keep the marriage and family together.
In the rare situation where both partners are equally motivated to end their marriage, a united front makes sense.
But when two parents are at odds about the viability of their relationship and tell the children that it is a mutual decision, it is a flat-out lie.
There are several problems with lying to your children.
First, kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for.
If they don't recognize there's a discrepancy between their parents' views of divorce at the time the news is announced, eventually, they will. And then they will know that their parents lied, not exactly the world's best legacy.
Parents generally preach the importance of honesty. Research tells us that the axiom, "Actions speak louder than words," is an accurate description of the way kids actually learn life's lessons from their parents.
They do as we do, not as we say. Furthermore, when they figure out the truth, which they will, they will feel deceived. No one wants that for our children.
Secondly, it is frequently the case that the parent who desperately wants to save the marriage places the utmost value on not being a quitter in life, of staying the course even when things aren't easy.
When tough situations arise in their children's lives, these parents have encouraged them to stick things out despite the fact that dropping out might be easier or more fun.
To the parent who prizes stick-to-it-tive-ness, presenting a united front about the dissolution of the marriage defies every bone in his or her body; it's disingenuous. It just can't be done.
That said, presenting something less than a united front can be tricky.
It can lead to a labyrinth of blame and counter-blame. It can tempt the spouse who wants out to justify the choice by explaining the source of unhappiness with the other partner, which is too much information for children.
Plus, things can escalate from there.
Children may be inclined to take sides or feel the need to be emotional caretakers for the parent who seems sad or angry about the marriage ending.
In order to avoid these unfortunate outcomes, how can two people with opposing goals and visions for the future talk to their children about their impending divorce?
The fact is, there is no perfect solution to this dilemma.
But why not consider the following. Parents could tell their children that they have been fighting a lot lately and disagreeing on many things, including what should happen with their marriage.
Nonetheless, since it takes two people to want to make a marriage work, they are going to _____(divorce/separate). There is no need to go into detail about why one person wants out and the other doesn't.
Then, the couple could shift the conversation to emphasize those things about which they do agree- (this is where one inserts what conventional wisdom suggests)- that they love their children, and the children are not to blame for the divorce, a description of the plan for their future, and so on.
Telling the truth to children is by no means a panacea for the pain they will feel about the disruption in their lives due to their parents' divorce. But it goes a long way to setting a positive precedent for honest and open parent-child communication.
William Shakespeare once wrote, "No legacy is so rich as honesty."
The behavior truly does bother me for a number of reasons - but I can transcend it.
Did you ever notice how many DBers don't go to the bathroom without analyzing it, yet our WWs do everything without any thought whatsoever, or out of pure emotion without reasoning? We really suffer from analysis paralysis sometimes.
RAI
I understand what you mean. I guess I shouldn't have used the word bother in this case. Our S's having an A bother us also but we cant just make a boundary that says "You cant have an affair". I've just realized in past I would more often than not be using boundaries wrong and using it to control without knowing. So I question myself as much as possible and the control aspect of it.
The way it see it now is that boundaries are for us more than them. For instance, one of my biggest boundaries that has helped me the most W doesn't even know about. My boundary was "I will not have conversations with W about OM". Since I was the one who always steered conversations into talking about him that boundary was nearly fully on me. Its been successful since I started having control over myself.
Another boundary I have is not accepting blatant disrespect from W, which for the most part doesn't happen anymore at all. I do get small bits of frustration or attitude, but its very minor and I don't react to it. In the past when she would be disrespecting me to my face I would just calmly say "I don't disrespect you when we speak I would appreciate the same treatment" and go back to what I was talking to her about or doing.
I definitely think we over analyze everything, were confused with whats happening and looking for answers. For them, I think they are so focused on that pursuit of being happy, be it with OM or alone, that they may no longer care whats happening with us. The other possibility is that they have such a powerful urge to prove what they are doing as right they cant show they are questioning it.
At the end of the day its all mindreading, they might think about everything, they might not. We just cant tell for sure and it also doesn't matter much for what we have to be doing at the time.
RAI-- Thought of you today
My best friend came by and told me he's getting a divorce. He's an Orthopedic Surgeon, graduated first in his class from a high ivy (HYP), is handsome and seemed to have a perfect life. 4 kids (3,5, 6 & 9). Perfect life, beautiful wife and beautiful children. Come to find out, he's dealing with the exact same thing most of us are dealing with. He's done all the wrong things. I gave him my copy of DB and filled him in about what he should be doing right now. My heart started sinking as he told me his story (much worse than my own). I was in his wedding the year before he was in my own. I'm stunned and shocked right now. For some reason, his story reminded me of your sitch. Hope you're doing well! I don't have a lot of time to post... too busy GALing and enjoying summer with the kids. Just wanted to pop in and say "Hi!"
Thanks for posting this. I needed to read this as it seems that telling the kids is going to happen soon.
Hope all is well and you continue to RAI!
Fogg, SadDood, and lost, thanks for your thoughtful comments. SD, your friend's sitch does sound a lot like mine. Hopefully he is hearing about DB earlier in the game than we did.
I have been off the grid because my mother is quite Ill. She had surgery today (doing OK thank G-d, but not out of the woods). These events in our life really force us to focus, don't they?
I am doing pretty well, considering. Since I gave W my ultimatum, I have not seen any changes, and I don't expect to. Frankly, I am look not looking for changes any more. I am not interested in being with her anymore. I have decided to devote my energies to minimizing the fallout of the D for me and my children. I think the quicker we D the better. This is not a healthy environment for the kids.
Prominent members of my community have approached me to show support. The whole community knows about the A - my W is not discreet enough and has been spotted by many - and it is only a matter of time before it gets back to my kids.
I still trigger every now and then. But I just focus on a time when I am no longer living with W and when I have found someone else - even though this will be awhile. I will be okay.
Hope all my DBer friends are hanging in there on their own journeys.
Yours in strength,
RAI
Glad to hear you're doing well RAI. Sorry to hear about your mother, I hope things improve. Stay strong and keep moving forward.
Thanks Fogg. Mother is improving, thank G-d.
I stopped by your thread. In doing so I realized that I have a lot of friends on this board. Many of you, I consider buddies (even though I don't know your real names
). I started to wish some of you happy Father's day, and I realized that it will be difficult to get to all your threads tonight. I know for many of us it will be a difficult father's day. So here is wishing each and every dad on the board a happy Father's day!
All the best,
RAI
raliced has been a very helpful friend to me in my sitch. I am so thankful for her sage advice. Today, she lost her father suddenly. Please stop by her thread and convey your support and condolences.
RAI
I have really been trying to detach, and for the most part I am doing better. Every time I find something suspicious in the house, I trigger and regret it. So I am still snooping, but much less. I totally agree with Ripken: detaching is so hard when you are in the same house. I really want to be in a different house, but I don't want it to jeopardize custody in any way, and my L has advised against it.
It seems like the whole community knows what is happening - a number of individuals have approached me personally. It is so shameful. Others have approached her, on their own volition, and W still denies that the A is happening. Prominent community members are wondering why it has taken me so long to take any action against her. I doubt they would understand much about DB. It seems like my W has dug her heels in completely. That is fine with me. I am just worried (more paranoia) that she is conspiring with my ILs to screw me over very badly. It is very unsettling not knowing what/if they are planning. my step-MIL, whom I have mentioned before, is very crafty and a pretty nasty person. I don't think she would have any qualms about destroying me or my reputation. Rumors are already spreading in my hometown, where my MIL lives, and they have come back to me through other channels. My WW is passive and non-confrontational, but her actions speak pretty clearly.
I am very concerned that my children are going to find out about the D before I have a chance to tell them. I will feel really badly if this happens. I am already troubled by the fact that the kids are being exposed to this toxic environment daily, without understanding why. They must be terrified by the uncertainty. This is not the model of how parents or a family should be. Every day that they are witness to the complete breakdown of our M is another day that they forget what a real relationship should look like. I want to tell the children.
Does anyone have any input regarding the timing of telling the children? Are there any resources available - on this board or elsewhere - on how to tell the children? Are there any major mistakes to avoid? I wanted to meet with the psychologist first, but she will not be available until after July 6, which seems like a lifetime. I am worried about something happening before that. Is meeting with a psychologist beforehand recommended? Am I waiting for nothing? Should I bite the bullet and just tell the kids, with W present?
Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated.
RAI
I did a prelim search on the internet and found only some superficial stuff from psychology today, HuffPo, parenting mags. Am I looking in the wrong places. Any resource would be appreciated. Perhaps I should take the risk and just wait until I meet with the psychologist??
RAI
On second thought, I don't know which is the actual risk:
a) talking to my children without the advice of a psychologist
b) not talking to my children and having them find out on their own, exposed to misinformation
Looking for the star inside of me. Not really finding it. A lot of fear.
RAI
RAI
Hope you get some answers on this question soon. My children are younger so I haven't looked into this that much.
This is just my uninformed opinion but I would say have a game plan before you talk to them. So if that means waiting to talk to the psychologist, then wait. You cant control if they get misinformation from outside sources so try to focus more on making sure the information coming from you (even if its a little later) is done right.
Thanks Fogg, I will wait for now. Do you know anyone on the board who has dealt with this recently?
You cant control if they get misinformation from outside sources so try to focus more on making sure the information coming from you (even if its a little later) is done right.
I am just worried that my older boys will be devastated if they hear about it and feel they have been kept out of the loop about it the whole time. "You knew about D the whole time and you did not tell us anything?" - and that would be the best case scenario. What if they hear outright lies? I know I cannot control what they hear elsewhere, but I
can control what they hear from me, and right now all they hear is my PMA and resounding silence. I have a friend whose mother is a WW and she told me that she wished her parents had told her sooner.
RAI
RAI - I have been wrestling with this as well. I did let my oldest know that there are problems - he does not live with us and was only slightly aware. He appreciated the heads up.
We were planning to go to family counseling to figure this conversation out and deal with it, but this never happened. Now the kids are just watching our disintegration. Sad, but I do let them know they can turn to me and I encourage them to ask questions.
I know my kids are older and this would be so much harder with younger kids.
Take Care!
Does anyone have any input regarding the timing of telling the children? Are there any resources available - on this board or elsewhere - on how to tell the children? Are there any major mistakes to avoid? I wanted to meet with the psychologist first, but she will not be available until after July 6, which seems like a lifetime. I am worried about something happening before that. Is meeting with a psychologist beforehand recommended? Am I waiting for nothing? Should I bite the bullet and just tell the kids, with W present?
When came the time to announce it to my kids, I did two things. First, I reached out to a help line for parents in my state. Have you done some online research to see if they exist? They were fairly helpful and mostly, it felt good to have spoken to someone. The second thing I did was an Internet research. I don't recall all that I found, but it seems to be in line with what you found.
So that's how we went about it: We gathered the kids together after school and before dinner. I told the kids (3 and 6.5 at the time) that we had something very important to tell them. Then my WW announced that she was leaving. We explained that we had too many arguments but that we still loved each other — literature suggests that if you say you stop loving each other, they'll fear you'll stop loving them. Then the conversation quickly turned to logistics. D6 and I cried a little, D3 didn't understand much what was going on.
You shouldn't think that they way you announce it will have as much impact as the content of your announcement. It reminds me of when I was a teenager: I was so worried about how I'd approach a girl to go out with her. Now older, I realize that there was no phrasing that would have convinced her if she didn't like me in the first place. I see it similarly here.
By the way, I may point to the obvious, but it always surprise me the importance of reputation in your sitch. I don't think I saw anyone else here worry so much about it. I understand that you belong to a close-knit community and perhaps the rules are different there (any chance you're Hassidic?). I'm not judging, just observing in case this external perspective can be helpful to you. Perhaps you could think a little about what difference it would make in your sitch if you didn't worry as much about the reputational impact of your S. It could be a useful mental exercise to weigh the pros and cons of certain decisions, or even worries you have.
I've seen people talk about it here and there, but I don't recall any specific threads where they talked about older kids.
What I have seen is you don't want to share specific details with them, but be as honest as you can as you don't want to lie to them either. Also reassure them this has nothing to do with them and they will be fine no matter what happens.
I'm sure your older boys have realized something is going on by now anyway, so its possible they know to some degree. Kids pick up on much more than we realize.
Mozza, thanks. I like your thought process.
I hear what you are saying about telling the kids that we still love each other. But I don't think I will be able to lie to my children - and it would be a big lie. I would prefer to omit the whole subject. I won't go out of my way to say that we don't love each other, but I also cannot in good faith tell them that we do. I am working on a script that may help me a bit.
I am not chassidic. And I am not worried about reputation from a religious point of view: I have pretty much the full support of my community. In fact, as I mentioned, people would like me to move faster against my W. Her actions seem to be casting a pall over our close-knit community.
As far as reputation goes, it is probably much more of an ego thing - I admit it. I just don't want someone maliciously spreading lies about me. I think that deep down I worry it can jeopardize my chances in a future relationship - by putting me on the defensive. I contributed to the breakdown of our M, but I am really not a bad person. I still pride myself on trying to do the right thing (I guess there is still a lot of "Nice Guy" in me - thanks again for the NMMNG reference) I have gone to great lengths (as you have seen in my previous posts) to protect our privacy even though every bone in my body wants to paint a scarlet letter on my WWs forehead. It bothers me that someone without scruples can willfully violate my personal matters. I don't want W or her camp spreading a narrative about me that she concocted after BD to justify her actions. Ego! get it?
RAI
thanks u-turn. That feeling that our kids our watching the family structure disintegrate (great choice of words) in front of their eyes makes my heart ache so badly. I appreciate what you are going through as I am going through it too. Let's get through it together.
RAI
Fogg, your last post is spot on with what I have been thinking. I do not want to lie. I also don't want to blame or overburden with too much information. What I worry about is:
a) giving too little information - I may not have all the details yet, but I don't want to wait until I do.
b) how to respond to their response. I don't have a clue what the kids will say.
c) making the kids feel like they have to cheer me up. It is not their responsibility to be my therapist.
RAI
a) giving too little information - I may not have all the details yet, but I don't want to wait until I do.
b) how to respond to their response. I don't have a clue what the kids will say.
c) making the kids feel like they have to cheer me up. It is not their responsibility to be my therapist.
Hello RAI,
You raised some very valid concerns. I'll answer as bst I can, I wemt thru this way back in 1999 with my XW. I am now going thru a D again but my WAW and I did not have any children togather - 3 each from our previous marriages.
a) Be
very honest with them. let them know that you may not have all the details yet, but will let them know of you find anything else out.
b) If you aren't sure how to reply, simply let them know that they have a good question or point and that you'll get back to them on that.
c) Let them know that it's normal to feel sad during these circumstances, and then make sure you don't ask them for their advice/opinion on anything D-related. At times, I'm sure they will notice you looking sad, if they bring it up let them know you will be fine.
Again, others may want to add something or make other points, but I hope this is a starting point for you.
I wish you all the best!
Bob
Hi Bob,
I just realized, I never congratulated you on the Hawks win!! 3 SCs in 6 years, sounds like they are building a dynasty.
a) Be very honest with them. let them know that you may not have all the details yet, but will let them know of you find anything else out.
Thanks for your reply. I am all about honesty. My kids know that I mean what I say and I say what I mean. It has been my practice as a parent since my eldest was born.
Until now, I was dreading telling the children, but now, I really want to just bite the bullet and do it. Once I tell the children, I may feel more comfortable telling others in my circle. I just feel like I owe it to my children to tell them first. Still, I want to do it responsibly. I think I will take Fogg's advice and wait until I have at least spoken with the psychologist. So, once again, I am in the waiting place. I hope nothing happens in the meantime.
Last night, when I was out jogging, OM drove by a number of times as I was walking to the track. I was initially not sure it was him, so I asked my jogging buddy to look in that direction to confirm - and he did. Not sure why OM is stalking me. He has what he wants already. Perhaps, my W sent him out to see what I am up to? I hope he does not have more sinister intentions. I am so sick of the paranoia.
RAI
Transplanting this to my thread for future reference. Thanks, Cadet!
Thank you, RAI. Yes, they both have been very ill. Appreciate prayers.
You got it sandi2!
Also for RAI
How to find a user on DB
Go up to
MY STUFF
Click on Watch List
Click on Watched Users
Click on Edit Watched Users
Click on Add a user to list
Type in user - "Never Give UP"
Select her as a watched user.
Click on her name
Click on show all posts.
Click on Topics
__________________________________________________________________
How to find your thread
Try clicking on YOUR NAME
SHOW POSTS
Then at the top right it says TOPICS CREATED - click there
or
My Stuff
Posts
Then at the top right it says TOPICS CREATED - click there
Hey RAI,
Thanks for posting on my story - How is it going after another lovely weekend?
I think I am going to quickly have to tell my kids about what's happening as I have a rumor train that is steaming through town too (I leaned on the wrong person I guess). I do not believe that it is going to be a big shocker to them, but will undoubtedly affect them in ways that I cannot even predict. It is such a shame.
W & I discussed finding a family counselor to help with this conversation and subsequent co-parenting - I am on board with any C, but it hasn't happened.
I have addressed the, kids thinking they have to cheer me up (your 3rd point up there ^^^) issue. I don't think they get it though - they just want everything to be better - they want everyone to be happy and for all this to go away.
But, it is funny how all we need is the kids to be near us - at times that is my crutch. I try not to show that to them - that they are helping me get through this.
Stay strong buddy!
It was a dreadful weekend, unfortunately, but it is over and I am past a major emotional hurdle of mine.
With all my plans for the weekend, and it being the first with my kids after 2 weekends away - taking care of my mother who underwent surgery, I was really psyched. However,
at around 5PM I received an email from my boss about how troubled he is that I have not completed my annual self-assessment. STRIKE ONE.
I called him and gave him the meager excuse that my troubles at home (he knows rough details) have spilled into work and I missed 5 emails from his assistant asking me to complete it. It was the first time that I can recall him being disappointed in me. STRIKE TWO.
I opened up the self-evaluation tool on my computer and read some not-very-flattering resident evaluations about me. STRIKE THREE.
In panicking, and trying to begin to complete this assignment, I missed my eagerly-awaited Friday afternoon run. STRIKE FOUR.
By the time Sabbath (Friday night) arrived, I was so despondent over the events of that afternoon. It hit me that my heart is not in my work and, as much as I have been trying to keep up appearances, I am neglecting my work and cracks are showing. Weekends are tough enough, being in the same house with my WW, but this just put me over the edge. My PMA was gone. I could not concentrate on my kids like I wanted to. I tried so hard to thought-stop and cheer myself up but I could not. All I could do was blame my WW for everything. Saturday was pretty much a write off. I realized that I have keeping all the pain bottled up so I could present a happy face to my children, but that it was killing me.
Sunday began a bit better. I saw the film Inside Out (Pixar) with S13 and S11. Then I took S3 for ice cream (just the two of us) and D6 for ice cream (just the two of us). D9 is at camp.
Inside Out was fantastic (5-stars, IMHO, and I don't give it lightly). I highly recommend it for individuals in our sitch. The premise is that sadness is an essential part of life and even an essential part of joy. I bawled my eyes out. Thought I was nuts, but they don't know what I know. Very timely. I think it helped my kids for what was about to happen.
I realized that I can no longer hide from my kids what is already self-evident to them: that our M is over. I therefore decided I was going to tell kids about the D. I told my W that everyone knows already and I want the kids to hear it from me, rather than someone else. Not telling them was killing me. So, using a somewhat rehearsed script from MWD, I told the kids last night (except D9). I could not hold back any longer. S11 became hysterical but admitted that he knew that there were serious problems. S13 was eerily accepting. Probably because he did not want me to be sad, or because he saw the writing on the wall, or both. D6 became hysterical because of S11. S3 fell asleep - clearly did not get it. At one point, as hard as I tried to avoid it, I lost it and cried on D11's shoulder hysterically. Uggh. I am still going to get the kids in to see psychologist, but hopefully now we can get some sessions in before school resumes.
My thoughts:
- Worst thing I ever had to do. The truth is dirty and hurts sometime, but that does not free one from the obligation to tell it.
- As bad as it was, I feel like a burden has been lifted.
- I am still sickened that WW actually wants this. Who would want this for their children?
- I am still standing.
- It would have been terrible no matter when or how I did it.
- This has empowered me to proceed with D more emphatically. Clearly, WW has nothing left inside of her.
This is a nightmare. When do I wake up?
RAI
RAI,
((((RAI))))
Gosh, what a hard weekend/week for you! I am so sorry that you had to tell the kiddos about the D. The only change I would have made in that scenario is for W to have been present as well because the WAS needs to see the impact on the kids.
I think it stinks that they ducked out on this huge responsibility and not see firsthand the choices they've made really impacts everyone. I am not saying that you were wrong here. Not at hall. Just that I would have told W to get her butt over to the house and sit through it together with you.
RAI,
Sorry about the rough weekend, that is quite a bit to deal with. Its understandable your work is suffering, don't beat yourself up too much. This is a life changing event that is out of your control, its to be expected.
Inside Out was fantastic (5-stars, IMHO, and I don't give it lightly). I highly recommend it for individuals in our sitch. The premise is that sadness is an essential part of life and even an essential part of joy. I bawled my eyes out.
I did also, it was a great movie. The Pixar volcano short got me in the beginning also.
So, using a somewhat rehearsed script from MWD, I told the kids last night (except D9).
Its done and over with, one less thing you need to deal with now. Just be there for them during this time, they are going through a roller coaster of emotions also and are confused. Be that great dad that they know you are, they need it more than ever.
Take care, RAI.
RAI, I am sorry you had a bad weekend. I hope things start to turn around for you. I can understand what you are going through, especially telling the kids. One of the hardest things I have ever done. Now I am just doing my best to show them I love them and will never leave them. I can also understand your anger toward W. I felt that also. It has gone away for the most part now. My focus now is on me and my kids and work. My WW is free to do whatever she wants!! Keep up your DB!! This too shall pass!!
Wonka,
Thanks for the hugs.
I guess I was not clear. WW was present - for precisely that reason. Except for saying how much we both love the children and hugging S3 and D6, she was pretty silent throughout, though. She spoke with the kids after our pow-wow as well.
Honestly, although she was present, I don't think she sees that her choices affect anyone. I know I am mind-reading, but looking at her face, I think there is a serious disconnect. It is so bizarre. I don't think she has an iota of guilt or shame over what she is doing. I think she is sad over what is happening, but does not see herself as the driver here - just another victim of the fallout of D. It is like someone who murdered his parents grieving over becoming an orphan.
As usual, there were no comments from her after the conversation. I would have settled for anger towards me, or sadness, or anything. She just slinked back to wherever it is she is now sleeping in our house - I think D9s bed, while she is away at camp. I think there is a black lump of coal where her soul used to be.
I know there is a lot of anger/venom oozing out of my words, but I am still angry. Working on that. I also met with L this afternoon - which did not help much. I am very fearful, still, of what the future holds.
RAI
u-turn, I did not specifically address your words of encouragement from your previous post. All the more poignant when coming from someone in a similar sitch. Thanks.
Fogg and Joe, your posts appeared in the time I was writing my last post:
Fogg,
Volcano made me cry too.
I am going to be that great dad that they know I am. Thanks.
Joe,
I now appreciate that I have to put the focus on my kids and work. I need to let go the anger. Howdja do it?
On another note, I don't believe in accidents. I am always seeing signs from the almighty. I did a huge double take when you wrote "this too shall pass". Unbeknownst to you, my wise-beyond-his-years S13 told me that last night. He also coupled it with a famous fable about the Wise King Solomon who asked his most trusted minister to find a special ring with special powers: "If a happy man looks at it, he becomes sad, and if a sad man looks at it, he becomes happy." His minister found an elderly merchant who engraved "This too shall pass" on the ring. The lesson being: be in the moment because everything passes.
I agree. This too shall pass.
You guys all put a much needed smile on my face.
Back to my regularly scheduled GAL and PMA.
RAI
P.S. My Mother is out of the hospital!
RAI, for me letting go off the anger was me seeing the wrongs I did in our marriage. I than made a list with some notes. I sat W down a few months ago and told her how very sorry I was for my wrongs and asked her to forgive me. Than I started working on myself and praying for God to help me. I also prayed for WW. I began to try to forgive her. Each day it got easier. It took me time and lots of little things keeping busy. Am I happy about what my W has done? NO. But I forgive her. Do I want to get back together with her? NOT NOW. Down the road? Maybe. If that is God's plan. She would have a TON of work to do herself before I would reconcile. A few boundaries of mine, HONESTY and FAITHFULNESS. Right now, I don't feel she would be willing to change those things. But maybe one day! But I am not sitting around waiting. I have alot of things in my life to do! And so do you! Let go of the anger and go do something that makes you feel good for yourself!
RAI,
My heart goes out to you. OF COURSE your work is suffering. Our situations are as close to having an addiction as I can think of - and that's coming from someone who's in his situation partly due to addiction.
The obsessive thinking, low energy, lack of creativity, no memory, and general feeling like hell is all par for the course.
I recently read the book Resilience and in it the author, who is an ex Navy SEAL talks about how the year after his divorce he was essentially useless. This is a guy that kills people for a living and has probably seen stuff that would make all of throw our lunches up numerous times. He said his goal some days was just to wiggle his toes because he knew if could do that then he could move his leg, that let him know he could put his foot on the floor, that let him know he could get out of bed. I know I said it, but this is a guy that KILLS people for a living.
Keep taking deep breaths, keep putting one foot in front of the other and know that feeling the pain that you do means that you love deeply and are a good man.
RAI - It hurts to just read this - I am sorry. So hard with young kids that just don't understand what and why and how (not that we understand any more than they do). This hurdle is crossed, it wobbled but didn't tip over, you landed on your feet and now time to run to the next one. (what's this, a marathon with hurdles? - yikes)
I also completely get the work struggles - both of my jobs suffered. I coasted by in one without putting my heart into it which saddens me because kids depend on me and I was selfishly coasting and thinking of myself when I should have been giving more to them (luckily I slightly rebounded and refocused toward the end of the school year). and in my business, I dropped about every ball that can be dropped (and though W doesn't know of the extent of that, she has judged me over it). I had a client last year/early this year tell me (he knew a little about my situation) I like you, you do great work, but you are paralyzed by this and I cannot count on you - it was heart breaking that a person couldn't count on me. It was a turning point - like another BD. I have done this so many times (burnt bridges) since BD. I knew I needed to detach from my sitch, detach from my M, detach from my W and focus on what is necessary right now, providing for my kids in a sustainable way. Not perfect yet, but re-building, getting better.
You WILL get better and it WILL get better.
Chin up. "this too shall pass"
RAI,
Yay...you must be relieved that your mother is finally out of the hospital.
RAI, I'm curious: what are you going to do about work? I've suffered from the same lack of focus and motivation and the impact was a hit on my income because I freelance and just couldn't be bothered to work. But there was no self-assessment nor boss to disappoint, only some clients who found me elusive for a while ("He must be busy because he's very good!").
The Announcement sounds like a terrible moment for you. I, too, cried when I announced it, along with then-D6. And WW was also emotionless, paying her dues and politely waiting for the duty to be over. It's not mind-reading, she told me so herself. There's nothing to understand from their attitude: their mind is elsewhere. It will take months or years before they reflect on it. They might never feel as much guilt as we feel pain. It's just a hazard of the human experience, I'm afraid.
Hi everyone,
letting go off the anger was me seeing the wrongs I did in our marriage. I than made a list with some notes. I sat W down a few months ago and told her how very sorry I was for my wrongs and asked her to forgive me. Than I started working on myself and praying for God to help me. I also prayed for WW. I began to try to forgive her
Joe46, I admire your ability to go to that very uncomfortable, vulnerable place inside yourself. That place where you really take stock of your contribution to the breakdown of the M. I have been there, and I forgave my W, but it was obviously conditional, because when I caught her with OM again, I clearly could not let go of my anger. I am just
not there yet. I think that living under the same roof is just too much for me. I will just continue to work on myself. Again, kudos to you.
Keep taking deep breaths, keep putting one foot in front of the other and know that feeling the pain that you do means that you love deeply and are a good man.
PigPen, I will take your advice. Although I likened my situation to one of PTSD, I appreciated your comparison to addiction. I think I am a little hard on myself when I feel that I have not emotionally rebounded from the A. I think I need to give myself MORE TIME. In that spirit, this past week I had TWO (!) consecutive days where I focused on my work above all else. It felt good to get back into the swing of things. My performance review with my boss went well and, as usual, it seems like my catastrophic predictions were greatly exaggerated. Speaking of the book "Resilience", have you seen the movie Unbroken? I would like to see it at some point.
RAI - It hurts to just read this - I am sorry. So hard with young kids that just don't understand what and why and how (not that we understand any more than they do). This hurdle is crossed, it wobbled but didn't tip over, you landed on your feet and now time to run to the next one. (what's this, a marathon with hurdles? - yikes)
u-turn, I did survive telling my children, didn't I?
I was heart broken by the story about your client. Yet, you took the experiences and it became your turning point. A positive turning point. You rebounded and are better for it. Perhaps, one day you can thank that client for setting you back in the right direction.
Yay...you must be relieved that your mother is finally out of the hospital.
Wonka, I am very relieved. So much could have gone worse. I am so thankful. I just heard about a 40y old with 4 children who died this week. So tragic. We have to be thankful for every moment we are alive. Similarly, we have to appreciate those around us.
I'm curious: what are you going to do about work? I've suffered from the same lack of focus and motivation and the impact was a hit on my income because I freelance and just couldn't be bothered to work. But there was no self-assessment nor boss to disappoint, only some clients who found me elusive for a while ("He must be busy because he's very good!").
The Announcement sounds like a terrible moment for you. I, too, cried when I announced it, along with then-D6. And WW was also emotionless, paying her dues and politely waiting for the duty to be over. It's not mind-reading, she told me so herself. There's nothing to understand from their attitude: their mind is elsewhere. It will take months or years before they reflect on it. They might never feel as much guilt as we feel pain. It's just a hazard of the human experience, I'm afraid.
Mozza, it seems like there is not too much for me to do about my work right now. My boss knows I am going through a D. He knows that promotion is the last thing on my mind right now. I am going to keep my nose to the grindstone and continue to do the best work that I can.
As far as my WW, she is a hollow shell. I am not sure if she was always that way and just putting on an act or if something snapped in her. I would really like to know - not that it would matter at this point.
Thanks everyone for your support as I go through this. I appreciate your insight, but more importantly, the fact that I am never alone in my struggle. Being a LBS is like having a disease, but a shameful disease. You cannot share details with your friends, so you suffer alone. It must have been ten times worse before the internet and DB.
RAI
Hello RAI,
I've been wondering how things are going and have been praying for you. I am very happy your Mom is out of the hospital.
Thank you for posting an update now. You can always share with us--we all understand and have your back! I'd be lost without this group as a LBH.
Okay, now get back to your regularly scheduled GAL and PMA.
Good to hear from you. Hang in there, please.
Bob
Bob,
You are a blessing. Thanks for your prayers.
Lately, when I pray, it is very inward - thinking about what I want and what is happening to me. I am going to try to be more outwardly focused in my life and my prayers. You are my inspiration to do this.
I have yo go be with my kids. I will try to check in on recent developments on your thread at some point.
Thanks,
RAI
RAI,
Enjoy your children, and you are most welcome!
Bob
One more thing for the group:
I was walking back from the outdoor track last night, and OM was parked in his pick-up truck with the headlights off down the street from my house. As I have mentioned before it is not the first time I have seen him prowling. It was at 10:53 PM, and he was sitting in his truck. I doubt he had any business in my neighborhood at that time.
I am sick of seeing this guy. the only people I told that I was going out running were my kids, W, and running buddy. I find it very suspicious that both times I went running in the last while, he has been there. So, I suspect WW texts him to tell him when I go out. I have no idea why he is always there, or what his intentions are. Is he trying to make me uncomfortable? Is he spying on me to update W on my GAL activities? Does he have more sinister plans?
Does anyone think I should do anything about this? OR just ignore.
RAI
interesting that you are in his head - guess you can't tell what he's thinking. If you feel unsafe or harassed, I would contact the police.
Otherwise - maybe just wave (either one finger or all of them, your choice).
Smiling and waving was a way to antagonize my foes in a former life - I got some enjoyment out of it in some passive aggressive way.
Take care of yourself (don't want to see you on the next Friday dateline mystery). (got my second death threat today from W - maybe I'll be on the 20/20 mystery)
Kidding aside - take care of yourself.
I told you before: so long as it doesn't involve any danger for you, I think it's fantastic that he cares so much about you! (if it's not a coincidence) It gives you so much power over him. His satisfaction is dependent on your reaction. If you ignore him, if you're not affected by his behavior, then HE is annoyed, humiliated even. All he can do is sit in his truck. You go about your business, showing him what a toothless ghost he is, making him feel ridiculous for even trying.
I'd probably take out my phone and take a couple of pictures. Let him see you taking them. Does your W know he's sitting there? Maybe if she knew OM is a psycho stalker type, it would help lift the fog a little.
Maybe order a pizza and have it delivered to the truck?
RAI
If OM is stalking either you or WW it is very serious indeed.
Choose to get practical advice, and to keep a journal of it with evidence, photographs etc. there can be restraining with enough evidence. I like Ralphy suggestions but to start with if I were you I would be covert. Otherwise the stalker gets creepier and sneaker.
It concerns me greatly.
V
V, ralphy, mozza, and u-turn. Thanks for the replies. I hope to address each of you in time, but right now I have another question. W has a history of kidney stone. S13 just told me that her stones are acting up. It is 11:30 pm where I am. I am worried that W is going to need to go to the emergency room at some point. I don't know if she will ask me to take her. If she does, what should I do? She fired me as her husband, I don't think it is still my responsibility, but I also don't want to seem callous. I also don't feel the need to do anything for her right now, especially since she is actively engaged in an A right now. This is along the lines of her experiencing consequences. On the other hand, if she does not ask me, or she asks me, but I refuse, she could go with OM, making me look like a ba$tard and OM look like Florence nightingale. She could further use my refusal to help as further justification for her actions. To be honest, I feel a lot of anger and enmity towards her right now. I am ashamed to feel this way, but it is how I feel. So confused.
RAI
RAI - In this circumstance - I wouldn't think of her as your W who fired you as her husband, but instead think of her as the mother of your children who may need substantive help while in pain.
My STBX has thoroughly discarded me - but he's the father of my children and, for their sake, if he is ever hurt or in trouble, he can count on my help (although I don't expect the same from him).
Raliced,
Thanks for the always sage advice!
Welcome back to the board. So sorry for your loss. I lost my father 4 years ago. I cried about the loss as recently as two weeks ago. I miss him always, but especially when I am distressed. May you know of no more sorrow.
RAI
I agree with Ralliced 1000 times
V
^^^ Give us an update when you can
Hi everyone,
I have been engaged in a new GAL activity. It is called WORK. I realize that not being present (in body and mind) at work was adding to my already high stress.
I have dropped in a few times to skim some of your threads. Not a much as I would like. You have all been there for me so many times, and I am sorry that I cannot be there for all of you as much.
Some long over due replies to my valued friends, then some updates.
Smiling and waving was a way to antagonize my foes in a former life - I got some enjoyment out of it in some passive aggressive way.
, I have thought about blowing the SOB a kiss. He is still stalking me on my nightly run. I would love to catch him on my cell phone, but it so dark out that it is hard to capture. Last night my buddy was with me to witness it. It is creepy, but I don't yet feel unsafe. My buddy thought I should call the police. I don't want him to know he is getting to me. It did, however, disrupt what could have been a very enjoyable run. I took off to get a better vantage point to record him. My friend understands why I am so paranoid about it, but it does kinda kill the mood. I am so angry that I did not record him last time, when he was stationery and right next to me. If I call the police now, it is my word against OMs. I dunno...
If you ignore him, if you're not affected by his behavior, then HE is annoyed, humiliated even. All he can do is sit in his truck. You go about your business, showing him what a toothless ghost he is, making him feel ridiculous for even trying.
, I agree. that is another reason I am hesitant to call the police. It will take me some time to come around and adjust my thinking.
I'd probably take out my phone and take a couple of pictures. I am so angry that I did not in the first place. Let him see you taking them. Does your W know he's sitting there? Maybe if she knew OM is a psycho stalker type, it would help lift the fog a little.
Maybe order a pizza and have it delivered to the truck?
, I would bet my W knows. She is telling him the nights I go out running. I guess she goes for the psyco stalker type. Just mind reading, but perhaps she gets off on knowing that her OM is harassing me. I don't think she likes me very much these days.
If OM is stalking either you or WW it is very serious indeed.
Choose to get practical advice, and to keep a journal of it with evidence, photographs etc. there can be restraining with enough evidence. I like Ralphy suggestions but to start with if I were you I would be covert. Otherwise the stalker gets creepier and sneaker.
,I don't know how creepy he will get. the whole town knows what he is doing. If something were to happen to me, the police would be beating a path to his door. But I
am being more careful. I have, paradoxically, stopped wearing reflectors, so that I am not so obvious a target. I (unfortunately) spend a lot of time looking over my shoulder. I try not to listen to music so I have better situational awareness. All that said, I think he is ruining my running experience. I really want more evidence before going to the police.
BTW V, I totally dig your poisy persona on-line. There
is something about V. If you are anything like this IRL, then your H is really pathetic for not noticing it.
V and Fogg, thanks for checking up on me.
I really am trying to GAL. immersing myself more in my work is helping. I am still very sad over everything, thus not very detached. I can't believe that WW is choosing "all this" over summer vacations as a family. She must really loathe me.
I have started to work more on the paperwork for my L. As I have said before - I hate Fins and paperwork already. Having to do this for the sake of a D makes it even more of s sisyphean task. I feel I am still in the "waiting place" from "Oh, the places you'll go". It is purgatory. I want to not see WW anymore.
Does anyone know anything about D coaches? Kind of the opposite of an DB coach, but I think it could help.
Thanks all for caring.
RAI
P.S. Fogg, I told you I was having trouble getting OM out of my head, too!
Hey RAI - good to see you back - was worried.
I totally understand immersing yourself in work - it is a good distraction and not performing well at work piles a whole other level of negativity on you. Way to go.
Zues has mentioned to me that the DB coaches here are very valuable even when D'ing. I have not contacted them, but he spoke very highly of the service.
Keep up the good work (good to hear that you are still running often)
Cheers!
RAI, I don't blame you for OM being in your head. The psycho is watching you while you run. Just insane.
u-turn, Thanks for your concern. It's nice to know that you guys are thinking of me. I don't think OM would do anything, but I do have a baseball bat under my bed. I have not yet called the police because what he is doing cannot yet be considered threatening.
Fogg, I stopped by your thread and saw the challenge that Mozza issued to you. I think it is great. Good luck. I am sorry I have not had time to be there for you.
V, something was bothering me all weekend. I need to apologize. In a previous post, I think I may have inadvertently called your H pathetic. That is not my place. What I meant was it is sad that your H does not recognize your stellar qualities. I am not sure if you took umbrage or even noticed my slip, but I am sorry nonetheless.
Today, my sister told me that W has changed her FB profile photo. Her prior photo was us as a couple. Now it is her alone. For the sake of detaching, I blocked W on FB a long time ago. How I wish my sister did not give me this information. It really hurts. My sister is usually extraordinarily sensitive to my feelings - this was unusual and she apologized profusely.
It hurts to know that there is someone who really loathes you. I know that I should not care, that what others think of me should not matter, that WW has to loathe me to justify her actions. Still it hurts. WW is worse that a stranger. I can converse and be civil with a stranger. I can't bring myself to be civil with her and she is doing such awful things. I feel sometimes that I am no further along than when I first got to this board.
Why are WWs so good at detaching? She had a jewelry show in our house and she was ear to ear smiles the whole time. Is she not affected by all that is transpiring?
RAI
RAI,
Thanks again for your kind words regarding my sitch.
It's tough to fathom how WW appears to be so happy while the LBS is in turmoil. However, just because they might be all smiles on the outside, it doesn't mean they aren't a complete mess on the inside. Either way, there is no way for the LBS to know the truth at this stage or really do anything about it.
I read somewhere that WW are usually 6-12 months ahead of LBS in regards to detachment because often this is a decision they have been pondering for some time before BD.
WW are usually 6-12 months ahead of LBS in regards to detachment because often this is a decision they have been pondering for some time before BD.
Thanks, Defacto, for the insight. It seems WW is ahead of me in everything.
there is no way for the LBS to know the truth at this stage or really do anything about it.
I get that there is no way to know the truth. I also realize there is nothing I can do about it. What really frustrates me, though, is the fact that it affects me so much. It is just another reminder of how un-detached
I am.
This is my 100th post on this thread. So I will be posting a link to the next thread.
RAI
Hi all,
As this thread will be locking soon, I am starting a new thread - still in the newcomer section.
Link to new thread - Yup, it stands for Rising Above It - IIISee you on the flipside.
RAI