BEC - glad you're doing better.
I just want to clarify my comments from the last thread. I'm not (and I don't think anyone is) suggesting that you go into a cave and emerge in a couple months as BEC2.0. What I'm suggesting is to be a LITTLE less available. Remember, you want to be her husband. You don't want to be an errand boy, maid, and babysitter. I get that she didn't miss you in your 3 months away. I'm just pointing out that I worry that the path you are on now may lead to some baby steps towards friendship and amicability - but may not lead you to where yo want to go.
You asked if I went with him to his IC. No, I don't. Not because I don't want too, it's because he doesn't tell me about them. We are in MC together on a weekly basis.
Also, about you doing things for your wife. You need to let her know what life is going to be like if you do divorce. That means she needs to take care of the house, yard and etc. If you keep doing these things for her, then she will think life will be easy.
In my first marriage, I handled everything from working full time, taking care of our three kids, cleaning, cooking and taking care of the all the yard maintenance. Then when my H and I divorced he came to me and said I can't work full time and take care of everything else. I looked at him and said, you expected me to do it. He was speechless.
So, I divorced my second H, he will be in for a rude awaking as well.
So I'm sort of torn on this advice. If my goal is to truly change myself back to my pre-depression me and beyond than the things I am doing, the behaviors I am changing are consistent with that.
No I do not want to be her babysitter or maid or errand boy. I want to be her husband. In my mind, that is what I am doing.
So far as her having to see what life without me would be like. I'm trying to show her, genuinely, that she would not be going back to the R of the last 5 years. Because she wouldn't be.
Cal and I had a short discussion on some of this stuff and what she perceives post-divorce life will be like vs the legal reality of it.
After I found the paperwork she was filling out a few weeks ago I set up a consultation with a close friend of my family who practices family law. I just wanted to know how things would shake out if she did decide to file and divorce. What I was told was this: The home would be mine, I have every legal right to return whenever I choose. The judge would rule my W able to work (which she has not done in 7 years being a stay at home mom), we would most likely be granted Joint legal and physical custody of the children, and the alimony payments, based on what I make, would be so small that my W would have to get a full time job and essentially support herself and her and I would jointly support the children. And the procedure would take about a year.
Fast forward to my last backslide 4 days ago where I promised the 2 months of space and got the "I will think about reconciling" answer. During that discussion, before we agreed on the 2 months and the "I'll think about it" she said that is it it is over. So I said than you are going to file? She said yes. So I asked her what am I supposed to do? What exactly do you think this is going to look like? She said that I could just go rent an apartment and she would continue to live in the house because it is her house and that was that. And the divorce would be final within a few months.
So then I asked her if she had consulted a lawyer. She said she had. I asked her if she had inquired about what post-divorce would look like: living arangements etc. She said they did not get that far into it. She then asked me if I had spoken to a lawyer. I told her that I had after I had found her paperwork. I made it clear that I did not want it to get to that point but I did explain some things (not everything: I stayed away from what custody would look like and such) but I did tell her that the house is not hers, even though she thinks it is, and that I can return anytime I choose but I have not out of respect for her. I also told her that proceedings take about a year. Not a few months.
She had no answer or argument after I stated these because they are simply facts.
So, she obviously has some perception about what divorce will look like that just does not match what legal reality will be.
The attorney I consulted with, again a close friend of my family, was very blunt and said if your wife decides to go through with this it is not going to be what she thinks its going to be. Basically she will go from being a full time parent with a husband who supports her financially to a part time parent who will be deemed fit to work and essentially financially care for herself.
I don't know if that conversation qualifies as her realizing what life without me would really be like but that is as close as I've gotten to having the "do you know what this is really going to look like if you do this?" conversation.
I'm hoping that what I told her that I learned maybe sunk in just a touch.
But time will tell. As far as my behaviors guys, I'm trying to be myself again and show her that if she decides to give reconciliation a chance that she will not be coming back to the bad version of me. It is the good version. The real me.
So even though she is treating me like crap I want to rise above it. Be a great Dad. Be kind and give space. Let her work through her anger at her own pace while I get strong. If I want to be her husband than I feel I need to act like it. Because that is the real me.
I'm sure you guys will beat me up a bit and that's fine. But this is an interesting topic. I'm sure there is a way where I can gradually start striking a balance between helpful and unavailable. But I just don't know how to do it exactly so please feel free to continue with suggestions.
So far as today is concerned. I never initiated any contact. She did TM me and told me her dinner plans are still up in the air because her one friends son is sick but that she will know later this afternoon and if they fall through she will come home right after dentist to be with daughter so i can spend some father / son time with the little man.
I'm just going to let this one go however it goes today. Things are very fragile and I'm only on day 4 of truly giving her space and time to think without questions or discussions or pursuit. So I kind of want to keep putting positive interactions in the bank.
I know there may come a time where I will have to start taking a firmer stance on things. But I think it is too early for that and if I do it will backfire.
Just speaking from experience with my own W. I had a talk with her about what finances would look like after we separated/divorced to show her what life would be like. I was also trying to show her the reality of the situation. The message she heard was that I was saying she couldn't do this, and needed me. That its not going to be how she wants and reasons she should stay with me. Not great from her point of view.
The day after BD I asked W to give me a month to see how I can change and not force me to move out. (The thought never occurred to me then I had a choice). That month went by and I thought things might be getting better, I was doing everything right. She didn't mention me moving out much until a few days before the end of the month.
To them when we ask for a time frame to "work" on things, that's all they see. A countdown until they continue what they were already planning to please us, they don't care about what we do to win them back during that time.
That's exactly what I was going to say, Fogg.
You can discuss finances all you want, but what she hears is "you can't do this." So my worry for you is this: she's going to keep you on as long as you're willing to do errands, watch the kids, etc. and once you start getting pushy again about reconciling, she will say that you haven't changed and finally leave.
I get what you're saying. You weren't there. Now you need to be there to return to your old you. I understand that. That's why you can't go full NC. I get it. But you need to show YOURSELF and therefore her that you CAN move on without her. You need to take the focus off of her and keep it on YOU. Every post I've read is about how to get HER back. I know - that's the ultimate goal. But in order to have a chance at succeeding, you need to actually detach yourself emotionally from her.
You say she didn't miss you while you were gone. I'm guessing that's sonething she said. I'm guessing it's donething she said while you were pushing her to R. So what does that really mean? Not much if you ask me. And you know what, if it's actually true, inserting yourself as you have isn't going to make her miss you any more.
To be clear, I haven't been here that long. My W and I are separated and she's running headlong to D. I truly may not know anything about what I'm telling you. Giving advice is a lot of a lot easier than living it. I don't know you and I don't know your W. I just want to let you in on where I see this heading based on your current state and the tone of your posts.
Guys I was only referencing that conversation to answer Hope on showing her what life without me would really be like.
Yes, but the point is you were trying to TELL her, which doesn't work. Whenever you try to tell them or reason with them they see it differently. You have to show her through actions or let her find it out herself.
Fogg,
AMEN! That is absolutely correct...actions speak louder than words!
I'm working on the emotional detachment as well guys. I get that part. I really do. I'm working on it because as I go through this process I do understand that I need to prove to myself that I can stand on my own. I'll get there.
Point taken guys. Like I said I was only referencing a past conversation. That is not what I'm currently doing. I'm focused on action.
We know the conversation happened some time ago.
But you said this today:
"I'm hoping that what I told her that I learned maybe sunk in just a touch."
And this:
"So, she obviously has some perception about what divorce will look like that just does not match what legal reality will be."
It's statements like this that concern me. You're so wrapped up in her thoughts and perceptions that I think you're missing what we're saying. Your focus should be on YOU.
BE
Ok .. caught up a bit .. your threads go fast my man.
So I do not want you to feel 'beat up' ... though I might wanna smack you around a bit I would never actually do it. I think you understand the advice you are getting but there is a disconnect as 'your sitch is different' .... but its not all that different.
My sitch .. different from yours, as all sitches have their little quirks here and there, the LBH was not 'there' ... emotionally 'detached' ... checked out ... all that .. I have heard it .. can even throw in I was always angry, never listened, used her, the list is a long one ... and its just that .. a list.
Are there truths in it? Sure... but all those things can be worked on. Your W may have looked into a L, maybe she has an idea of what things will look like financially. You are doing all these things .. new things .. 180's and it will take time for her to trust them ... I assure you 2 months its not going to make her say .. "Ok I was wrong, come home" ... not after years of her dealing with you and your ways. So that part of you I get ... doing these things now in the face of "To little to late"
The part you need to work on .. is rebuilding YOU. I think you are still not detached emotionally and that holds you back a bit from getting your swagger back and appearing like the better choice. The WW can smell it ... she knows she can have her cake and eat it ... heck she is not even having to work at it with you yet .. gets harder then when they pursue just to make sure we are on the hook.
Time to do the mirror work and get to the better you BE
I agree, you need to start detaching emotionally. I wish my H would come and do the things that you are doing for your wife. Just focus on yourself. Set some goals. Start with the small ones and work your way up to the big ones.
Cali and Hope. Thank you. And thank you everyone else. I'm working on the emotional detachment guys. It's going to take some time but I am working on it.
Going to post an update from today shortly.
Ok guys. So here is the rundown from today. Successful day. PMA was much better today.
I did no contact initiation. She initiated all of it.
She did her dentist appt and her plans with her girlfriends fell through and got pushed to next week so she came home and stayed with D and I took S out for pizza and a hike. We had a great time.
Here are a couple of interesting behaviors from the W that occurred after she got home from dentist and before I went out with S:
Her mood was mostly pleasant. We had a brief discussion on where we were with money / bills. She told me she had a doctor's appt on Monday morning and asked if I could watch daughter. I said I would. I took the opportunity to ask if everything was ok (medically). She communicated with me on it and told me she had been having pain in the abdominal area. She didn't go into detail but said that it might require minor surgery. I told her that that concerned me and if she felt comfortable to please keep me informed and if she does have to have surgery to let me know and I will take her: She was receptive to all of that. So that was a bit of an opening up and a conversation.
Second was an interesting one because of some of the discussions we've had here today about my sitch and my W needing to realize what life without me would be like.
She said to me before I left with S that "We don't need to talk about this now but I'd like to maybe come up with a set schedule for when you see the kids. It's been kind of wishy washy and I think it would be best for them".
So I say "Wishy washy? Actually it's been very consistent. I see them almost every day and that's what I would like to continue to do".
Here is the kicker that said to me that she may have had her first glimpse of reality. She says "Yes I know you are seeing them almost every day. But I'm not getting to spend any real time with them. I never get alone time with D because niece is here every day (she babysits our niece during the week as daycare) and I never get time alone with S because he is in school and then you are with them in the afternoons".
Here is my one mistake for the day. I said "Ok we can talk about it. Whatever you want to do while we are going through whatever it is we are going through right now" (shouldn't have said that.
So I take out S. And then I end up being a nice guy. I drop him home about 45 minutes early. W seems surprised. I pull her aside and tell her that I thought about what she said earlier and brought him home early so she could have some alone time with him since D was in bed.
She said "ok"....didn't show appreciation but I expected that.
Then I said goodnight an left.
Thoughts? I was very surprised at how she admitted that she wasn't getting to see the kids enough.
I'm glad you had some bonding time w/your son and your wife had some w/your daughter.
As for your wife's medical condition, I do hope it's not serious and will require surgery, but if it does, she may ask for your assistance...but if she doesn't, do run roughshod over her and tell her that you are going to do this or that. You offered to assist her today and that's good because it gives her the option as to whether or not she will want you to drive her back and forth, etc. With people in crisis, they react better when they are given the option of saying yes or not. Okay?
Now, let's talk about the visitation schedule. I see two ways of viewing a schedule being set up. 1) She wants more alone time w/her children (which could be valid); or 2) she wants a schedule so that you are not at the house as much, i.e., in her space. It could be a combination of both 1 and 2, but I am leaning towards the fact that you are over to the house entirely too much for her comfort and yes, she needs her space and time not only to enjoy the kids on her own, but to enjoy her home w/o you there a large majority of the time. In other words, she's GALing and wants more freedom to do so w/o your presence up front and center most of the time. I think a schedule would be good for both of you because it will give you time to do things for yourself and also help you to focus on what you need to do for yourself.
Now, I realize you aren't going to agree w/my comments...but this is exactly what we've been talking about for a couple of days about being available all of the time. It's almost like she's reading our minds about the amount of time you are spending over there doing the husbandly duties as well as being a dad. I think you need to listen to what she suggests and if it sounds reasonable, test drive it for a while and see if the schedule works. Don't shut her down w/o negotiating. Listen to what she has to say, show her that you are listening and not just ignoring her when it comes to setting up a schedule.
Choose your battles wisely and if she wants more time w/the kids on her own, I would give her the time and see how she handles it. Sometimes when they see you aren't going to fight them on things, they soon grow weary and turn things back over to us to take care of.
Just my two cents.
Thanks Job. I won't fight her on it. When she brings it up again I will listen to her. And if it is reasonable I'll go with it and give it a test drive.
Those kids are her entire world. To me, I may have falsely interpreted this as her not liking the fact she is now having less and less time with them (possibly a glimpse into what her future may look like).
But that is just speculation on my part.
I won't fight her on it when the time comes. Scout's Honor
I feel like I am getting better each day with DBing and that is because of all of you. Like I am light years ahead of where I was a few weeks ago but still have light years to go.
I was thinking exactly what Job posted. To me it seemed shes trying to tell you that your at the house too much in either a polite or indirect way, since the physical separation isn't giving her the space like she thought it would.
Its very difficult to detach from this situation, but its whats best for you. It will take time and effort, but you will get there eventually.
One of the lessons to learn here is "not to assume" anything that you think they might do, say or think. Because things change on a dime and I don't think any of us are mind readers or have crystal balls that we look into all of the time.
Listen, validate, affirm, be polite, and above all else dig deeper for patience. Dig even deeper for patience and know that you are starting to have a better understanding of what DBing is all about.
One day at a time, one hour at a time, one second at a time. Don't rush the process and if you backslide, learn from the step back and then pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back on that old DB path.
Keep the focus on YOU!
I agree with Job 100 percent with the visitation. My H gets our D every other Wednesday to Wednesday. This way we both have time to ourselves.
So take advantage of this and focus on yourself.
Knowing my wife it's that she really does miss not seeing the kids all the time. Those kids are her world. She's been a stay at home full time mother for 6 years.
But I won't assume that is the reason. And I will take everyone's advice and when she brings the subject up again I will work cordially with her on it.
Thanks everyone.
Morning everyone. W texted me last night. Apologized and said she had completely forgotten she had volunteered for a PTA event at my son's school this morning and asked if I could come over to watch the girls (daughter and niece).
I didn't know what to do. I waited about 15 minutes. Asked her what time she told me I said ok she said thank you.
I didn't know what else to do. I thought about saying no but I was available to do it and didn't want to lie. She was reaching out for last minute help and maybe I should have just said no but I didn't know how to do that "effectively".
Anyway. I'm here watching the girls.
Backslid and recovered today.
Here is the backslide: W brought up the visitation schedule. I was calm but honest with her and told her I wasn't comfortable with it and would have to think about it. Expressed that in my opinion seeing less of the kids was not best for them. Also said that compromise is a two way street and that overall what we are currently doing is not what is best for the children and would eventually like her to meet me in the middle on the big picture.
Thought about it for a while after the conversation and realized it was the wrong approach. Called her back and told her that I had decided that I would meet her in the middle on this (taking everyone's advice). This conversation was much more pleasant. Her request was reasonable. We briefly discussed that she knows I would like her to meet me in the middle eventually on the big picture and that she will not ignore my overall feelings on that and will continue to think on it.
So we settled on a schedule that was very reasonable. She only wanted Tuesday afternoons with the kids. So I only loose one day.
I truly listened to her and felt she truly listened to me during the second conversation.
So I made a slight mistake today and initially acted on emotion (but didn't show anger / just firmness). But realized my mistake and self corrected.
BE
I would not say you backslid ... you held your ground, thought about it and reconsidered realizing the schedule was fair.
I do think job is on point with her perspective .. your WW wants space, obviously more space than what you are wanting/willing to give ... again its the pursuit/distance dance you see around here all to well ... at this point in the game you are all up in her buisness and its going against every fiber inside you to not be this way .. I totally get it, I really do.
This is why the GAL is so important, at first it just gets you off her back, then as you become more involved in it it begins to take your mind off of things ... then the switch goes off and you find yourself GAL'ing more just because you do not want to be close to the drama ...... she will test you, once you begin to actually be thriving because of the distance seems to confuse them .... we need to get you to that point, while walking the balance of being able to showcase your 180's from who you were during the depression phase.
Hang in there .. you are doing better.
Also said that compromise is a two way street and that overall what we are currently doing is not what is best for the children and would eventually like her to meet me in the middle on the big picture.
We briefly discussed that she knows I would like her to meet me in the middle eventually on the big picture and that she will not ignore my overall feelings on that and will continue to think on it.
Its good that you compromised on the schedule, what did she suggest at first? I cant imagine you said no to her initial request of only 1 day. Its progress to giving her some space. How can you get out of the house with you and the kids on another day during the week? She needs that alone time just like you do.
The quoted part above, I assume this is regarding the M, and not being separated anymore? Every time you throw comments like that at her mixed in with whats best for the kids your telling her what she can and cant do, trying to control the situation. In her mind whats best for the kids doesn't matter, its just how it is. She will justify it anyway she feels, and anytime you go against that thought it roots her more in doing this. Telling her whats best for the kids isn't doing whats best for the kids because it only prolongs her thinking this is the right path. Let her figure that out herself.
Thanks Cal. Improving every day thanks to all of you
You're exactly right: I need to be able to get to that "sweet spot" where I'm walking the balance.
But I will def need continued guidance from everyone as I continue to work toward that.
Going back over to my house this afternoon to spend time with kids from 4-8 (agreed upon with W).
I'm really having strong thoughts of I can't do this. Just want to tell wife this is crazy. I'm coming home.
I'm tired of this....6 months.....
Need some support and encouragent to stay the course today.
you CAN do this BEC.
Do it for you and for your KIDS.
They need you and I know you are a STRONG MAN.
You can do it. One second/minute/hour/day/week/month at a time. Put one foot in front of the other.
You've tried everything else and that hasn't worked. Why not really clot to this and see what happens. THE WORST THAT HAPPENS IS THAT YOU BECOME THE BEST BECLEM YOUVE EVER BEEN.
Thanks guys. I'm not going to do / say what I said I want to. Just have such a strong urge to do so.
I've made alot of progress these last 5 days. I have to keep it going.
Progress is good, keep up the good work. Baby steps at times if you need, it will take time and you will likely make mistakes. All you can do is learn from them and keep moving forward.
I'm cool guys. I'm cool. Thanks.
Day 5 in the books. Here's the update.
Already covered the kid schedule and how I compromised on that one. Forgot to mention W and I were able to communicate that that discussion was ok with her and that my expressing how I initially felt about the big picture (us) that she did not view that as a breach in our agreement on me giving space and her thinking. So that is good: Not really a backslide.
Had the kids: Over at my house from 4-8.
One other interaction that occurred this evening: W was out while I was there. Dryer stopped working. I go to check fuse box. Do the trip: Other stuff in the house goes out. So I text her to let her know. No answer. Call and leave VM.
End up calling my Dad over because he is more handy than I am. Anyway we figure out new dryer is drawing too much power etc. We get it figured out and I have my Dad bring the clothes to his house to use his drier.
While this is happening W finally calls me back about an hour after I had left her a VM. I tell her what is going on. She said she had been taking a walk on the beach and left her phone in the car because she didn't want any disturbances.
Then I acted without fear. Very calmly I told her that I understand we're going through this whole space thing and that she chooses to leave when I come over. And that is fine. But that we are still married and have the kids. I explained to her that when she leaves I feel she should have her phone readily available because what if an actual emergency occurs. The dryer and power in the house wasn't an emergency, I simply was doing the right thing by informing her of what was happening. But if a real emergency occurred, with the kids or something, she needs to be readily available to answer a call. That I do that for her and she should do the same because as parents it is important.
She actually did not fight me on this or get angry in any way. She actually agreed.
So that was a win: I acted without fear of how she may react because I felt strongly that in spite of our current circumstances we need to be available to each other in case of emergencies and such.
Anyway. That was today. A couple of interactions where I felt unafraid to express some things and it didn't backfire.
The lack of fear I think is a step in the right direction for me on a personal level and how I am growing each day. Could be the first step toward detaching.
W and I were able to communicate that that discussion was ok with her and that my expressing how I initially felt about the big picture (us) that she did not view that as a breach in our agreement on me giving space and her thinking.
Sounds like a good day overall.
I'm not sure I understand the quoted part though. You re-discussed this conversation to clarify some things? I don't understand why you would bring this all back up. You know the rule about "believe none of what they say and only 50% of their actions"? I'm concerned that she's telling you what she knows you want to hear.
I'm not saying you really messed up. But this feels like way too serious of a discussion to be having so early into going into the "reduced contact" stage.
I'm glad you've got a more regular schedule figured out and the night off should be good for you.
Also said that compromise is a two way street and that overall what we are currently doing is not what is best for the children and would eventually like her to meet me in the middle on the big picture.
We briefly discussed that she knows I would like her to meet me in the middle eventually on the big picture and that she will not ignore my overall feelings on that and will continue to think on it.
Its good that you compromised on the schedule, what did she suggest at first? I cant imagine you said no to her initial request of only 1 day. Its progress to giving her some space. How can you get out of the house with you and the kids on another day during the week? She needs that alone time just like you do.
The quoted part above, I assume this is regarding the M, and not being separated anymore? Every time you throw comments like that at her mixed in with whats best for the kids your telling her what she can and cant do, trying to control the situation. In her mind whats best for the kids doesn't matter, its just how it is. She will justify it anyway she feels, and anytime you go against that thought it roots her more in doing this. Telling her whats best for the kids isn't doing whats best for the kids because it only prolongs her thinking this is the right path. Let her figure that out herself.
BEM, not sure if I've posted on your sitch before but I've been reading. There's one thing that stands out to me like neon paint in a black-lit Y2K shelter.
You are being very controlling. Please reread the quote above in regards to how invoking what's "best for the children" is a recipe for disaster. When I read this I fist pumped in the air because it was both so spot on, and because it was so obvious to me this was overstepping. Now reread your last post. Seriously? You can't take an hour walk on the beach to calm your thoughts? That's borderline craziness. And even if it isn't, it's not really your place to step in unless it's a TRUE threat to the kids.
I don't trust your judgment on this so let's look at an example:
Leaving kids alone in a bear's den after winter hibernation covered in honey- THREAT
Taking a 20 minute shower- NO THREAT
The fact is there isn't a real threat here, you are just so hurt by her decision to leave you that you DISAPPROVE of her behavior, and you are trying to influence it with whatever "hold" you still have. That's a great way to let the last hold erode and lose a parenting relationship that your kids would benefit from.
My DB coach told me there are four steps: 1) let the dust settle, 2) Become coparents, 3) romance, 4) reconciliation. She said the biggest part of step 1 was sending a message through your behavior that you understood and respected her autonomy.
So to recap point one just to make sure you don't miss it again- DO NOT tell this person what to do. You don't control others you're not married to, and trying to control your W probably was a big factor in getting you here as well.
Instead I'd recommend you follow the advice you've been given about focusing on yourself. Read your last few posts and see how caught up they are with your interactions with your WAW. I'm sorry to tell you that none of this matters. If you and your W are remarried in 5 years that's great, but it won't be because of a tactic today, it will be because of the changes you make AFTER you drop the rope. You mentioned this is a marathon, not a sprint, but you don't start moving down the path until you are able to let go of the rope tying you to the ashes of your old M.
Good luck. And I mean that sincerely, not snottily. I'd like to see you take this step.
W and I were able to communicate that that discussion was ok with her and that my expressing how I initially felt about the big picture (us) that she did not view that as a breach in our agreement on me giving space and her thinking.
Sounds like a good day overall.
I'm not sure I understand the quoted part though. You re-discussed this conversation to clarify some things? I don't understand why you would bring this all back up. You know the rule about "believe none of what they say and only 50% of their actions"? I'm concerned that she's telling you what she knows you want to hear.
I'm not saying you really messed up. But this feels like way too serious of a discussion to be having so early into going into the "reduced contact" stage.
I'm glad you've got a more regular schedule figured out and the night off should be good for you.
Matt. Just to clarify. It was during the second conversation when I decided to compromise on a schedule. We were able to communicate that it was ok with her that I had expressed some views in the first conversation when I was unsure if I wanted to set a schedule and that she did not view it as a breach in our agreement of space.
I don't think she was just telling me what I want to hear. It was just kind of within the flow of the conversation and cordial. Her tone of voice is very "cold and pissed off" when she is telling me something that I know is just simply what I want to hear. This was different.
But your point is taken. Thanks man.
Also said that compromise is a two way street and that overall what we are currently doing is not what is best for the children and would eventually like her to meet me in the middle on the big picture.
We briefly discussed that she knows I would like her to meet me in the middle eventually on the big picture and that she will not ignore my overall feelings on that and will continue to think on it.
Its good that you compromised on the schedule, what did she suggest at first? I cant imagine you said no to her initial request of only 1 day. Its progress to giving her some space. How can you get out of the house with you and the kids on another day during the week? She needs that alone time just like you do.
The quoted part above, I assume this is regarding the M, and not being separated anymore? Every time you throw comments like that at her mixed in with whats best for the kids your telling her what she can and cant do, trying to control the situation. In her mind whats best for the kids doesn't matter, its just how it is. She will justify it anyway she feels, and anytime you go against that thought it roots her more in doing this. Telling her whats best for the kids isn't doing whats best for the kids because it only prolongs her thinking this is the right path. Let her figure that out herself.
BEM, not sure if I've posted on your sitch before but I've been reading. There's one thing that stands out to me like neon paint in a black-lit Y2K shelter.
You are being very controlling. Please reread the quote above in regards to how invoking what's "best for the children" is a recipe for disaster. When I read this I fist pumped in the air because it was both so spot on, and because it was so obvious to me this was overstepping. Now reread your last post. Seriously? You can't take an hour walk on the beach to calm your thoughts? That's borderline craziness. And even if it isn't, it's not really your place to step in unless it's a TRUE threat to the kids.
I don't trust your judgment on this so let's look at an example:
Leaving kids alone in a bear's den after winter hibernation covered in honey- THREAT
Taking a 20 minute shower- NO THREAT
The fact is there isn't a real threat here, you are just so hurt by her decision to leave you that you DISAPPROVE of her behavior, and you are trying to influence it with whatever "hold" you still have. That's a great way to let the last hold erode and lose a parenting relationship that your kids would benefit from.
My DB coach told me there are four steps: 1) let the dust settle, 2) Become coparents, 3) romance, 4) reconciliation. She said the biggest part of step 1 was sending a message through your behavior that you understood and respected her autonomy.
So to recap point one just to make sure you don't miss it again- DO NOT tell this person what to do. You don't control others you're not married to, and trying to control your W probably was a big factor in getting you here as well.
Instead I'd recommend you follow the advice you've been given about focusing on yourself. Read your last few posts and see how caught up they are with your interactions with your WAW. I'm sorry to tell you that none of this matters. If you and your W are remarried in 5 years that's great, but it won't be because of a tactic today, it will be because of the changes you make AFTER you drop the rope. You mentioned this is a marathon, not a sprint, but you don't start moving down the path until you are able to let go of the rope tying you to the ashes of your old M.
Good luck. And I mean that sincerely, not snottily. I'd like to see you take this step.
Zues. Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your advice and perspective. Thank you.
I really have to agree. You need to find a way to get out of the scenario. Don't do things for her, get out and let her be. I would say and do the same things, as yourself. And it would only make it worse. Right now, you could poop a golden egg, and it wouldn't matter. There has to separation, and longing before any of that can be done. Treating her like she can't do anything for herself, is going to reinforce the negativity. Really look at yourself and find things to fill your time. It will truly help you.
BE,
From where I'm sitting and after reading the latest communications between you and your wife...you are controlling. Yeah, you are. You may not even realize that you are but you are using the kids as a way of controlling your wife.
For example, the dryer goes out and you find a way to get the clothes dried....no need to contact her while she's out. It was not an emergency and it could have been something you discussed after she returned. As for emergencies....you are an adult and should be able to take care of things during the time you are w/the kids. Yes, you can phone and leave a message, but you don't need to tell someone that they need to have their phone attached to their hip when they are away. People do check their messages and in your wife's case, she knew you were there and could take care of things.
When your wife is away and you are taking care of the kids...that's on you. Your wife needed some space and that's her decision if she wants to leave and go to the beach, out to eat, etc. In fact, we encourage our "rational" spouses to be in another part of the house, be busy and/or leave the home when the crisis people are there visiting children...so what she's doing is no different.
Again, I do not think you realize that you are "telling" her what you want her to do. Step back, you can't control her or her actions. You can only control yourself and if you want a different outcome, then you will need to change how you interact w/her.
Job. Can you give me some specifics on ideas of how I change my interactions? I'm trying but obviously am missing the mark.
BEC,
When your wife isn't around, if something happens that is a non-emergency, then wait until she returns to advise her of what happened.
When you are speaking to your wife, make suggestions, not tell her what she should do or not do. You have to give her the option of agreeing or not.
When responding to suggestions that she is making, try not to reply in a knee jerk reaction. Instead advise her that you want to think about what she's suggesting and you'll get back to her. When you do, state calmly and concisely what you would like to do in the way of meeting her half way or pointing out how it looks to you.
I'm sure others will have some suggestions as well.
Say less not more and try to speak more with actions and less with words.
BEC,
When your wife isn't around, if something happens that is a non-emergency, then wait until she returns to advise her of what happened.
When you are speaking to your wife, make suggestions, not tell her what she should do or not do. You have to give her the option of agreeing or not.
When responding to suggestions that she is making, try not to reply in a knee jerk reaction. Instead advise her that you want to think about what she's suggesting and you'll get back to her. When you do, state calmly and concisely what you would like to do in the way of meeting her half way or pointing out how it looks to you.
I'm sure others will have some suggestions as well.
Thank you. That makes sense.
I just want to let everyone know:
My interactions with my W have been better this week than they have been in quite a long time. Even this morning when I dropped off the laundry before work she was relaxed. Thanked me for what I did and engaged me in some conversation.
I'm trying to show her love without pressure. I've done alot of reading on this site and have seen varying methods and situations.
My understanding on Michelle's advice is to:
Listen to our Spouse: What are they telling us about why they want out of the marriage.
Do 180s: Utilize the information you know from listening to your space to truly and genuinely change the behaviors that have led to your R falling apart and stay consistent with those changes.
Show your spouse the person they fell in love with through ACTIONS
She also stresses that we are to PAY ATTENTION to how our spouses are reacting or behaving or interacting with us in order to gauge what is working and what is not working.
I've spent quite a bit of time reading success stories and people seem to vary their ways of utilizing the approaches based upon their particular situation.
For me I have realized two things that don't work:
The first was complete space without recognizing my need for change. This occurred during November through February (our 3 months "temporary separation"). I just stayed the same old me. Waited for three months and left my wife alone. She saw no change. She concluded she's better off without me.
The second has been March through about a week ago: Showing change but combining that with pursuing like crazy and bothering her about "us". This also proved to be a disaster.
This week has been a different approach and I think I can find some success with it: It is a matter of combining showing genuine change (and believe me my changes are for real) through action while allowing her space and freedom to breathe.
She is starting to relax because I am not talking about us. I am not pressuring her. And at the same time she is starting to show appreciation for the actions I'm taking. How good I have been with the children. How I am there for her to assist and help her out with things.
I want to continue with this approach for a while and see if she continues to soften.
I believe, based upon what Michelle writes, that we have to pay attention to our interaction with our spouses and have to monitor their behaviors because that is how we gauge what works and what doesn't work.
I want to show unconditional love without the pressure. Be a good man. A good father. And yes a good husband. These are all of the things that I want to be again. And when I really listen to my W, these are the areas I let slip and the reason she wants out.
But I have to show these things without expectations and without pressure.
Those are my thoughts for the day.
In other words: Be a beacon of positive energy. Not one of negative energy.
Meet your spouse in the middle and wait to see if they join you.
Be the change you wish to see in your relationship.
BE I see alot of the feedback has been given along with good advice ...... trying to get you to see what you are doing is not really DBing ... I read your post and was almost out of my seat saying NOOOOO.
Thought I would break it down a bit and maybe get you to realize a few things ... again .. only trying to help you out here as I fear if you continue this thing is going to blow up in your lap.
Forgot to mention W and I were able to communicate that that discussion was ok with her and that my expressing how I initially felt about the big picture (us) that she did not view that as a breach in our agreement on me giving space and her thinking. So that is good: Not really a backslide.
WHY?? No no no R talks .. no us... she fired you remember?? Asking her if she seen this as a breach? Man ... read up DB again... clearly says make the changes and DO NOT point them out right? Do not bring up or worry about a backslide when and if it happens ... accept it .. own it .. LEARN from it and move on.
One other interaction that occurred this evening: W was out while I was there. Dryer stopped working. I go to check fuse box. Do the trip: Other stuff in the house goes out. So I text her to let her know. No answer. Call and leave VM.
Ok .. TM fine .. again not required here, who cares you are the new man on the scene and you will handle it right? She will feel badgered with you constantly contacting her for these things .. "Hey the light is out on the microwave .. I'm on it.... the door squeaked .. I oiled it" Stop updating and just do it if you want to do it .. DO NOT POINT IT OUT.
While this is happening W finally calls me back about an hour after I had left her a VM. I tell her what is going on. She said she had been taking a walk on the beach and left her phone in the car because she didn't want any disturbances.
^^ Take that hint man ... I mean she just told you she did not want to be disturbed.
I will spin this a bit ... we gave you the advice to not be so availible, but you explained it was your 180. Question for ya ... if you were not around to do this ... not the man to take care of the washer what would your wife had done? Maybe she calls someone to fix it ... or maybe she thinks ... man .. hate to admit it but BE would have this taken care of. My W has recently told me certain things in her Condo are all jacked up and she realized how much of that stuff I always took care of ... food for thought my man.
Very calmly I told her that I understand we're going through this whole space thing and that she chooses to leave when I come over. And that is fine. But that we are still married and have the kids. I explained to her that when she leaves I feel she should have her phone readily available because what if an actual emergency occurs.The dryer and power in the house wasn't an emergency, I simply was doing the right thing by informing her of what was happening. But if a real emergency occurred, with the kids or something, she needs to be readily available to answer a call. That I do that for her and she should do the same because as parents it is important.
[i][/i][u][/u]
^^^ Screams fear and control ... you are the man ... you can handle whatever it is ... it was not an emergency but you used this event to provide a what if scare tactic .. you are not going to scare your W back .... can you see how this is pressure added from a non-issue? Ok the washer acted up while she was out collecting her thoughts or doing whatever ... instead of coming back and finding out you handled it without a peep ... she has this scare tactic tossed at her and is made to feel guilty for doing what .... EXCACTLY what she said she needed .. space and time away from you which you intruded on.
BE .. I say this because I was there, I seen how the scared hurt little boy can wreck this part ... you have to get detached and stop pursuing. Because all ^^^^ is not attractive ... read up on sandi's WW threads .. there are 3 of them and they are golden ... but only if you take away from the pain others have gone through and use the tools provided.
BE I see alot of the feedback has been given along with good advice ...... trying to get you to see what you are doing is not really DBing ... I read your post and was almost out of my seat saying NOOOOO.
Thought I would break it down a bit and maybe get you to realize a few things ... again .. only trying to help you out here as I fear if you continue this thing is going to blow up in your lap.
Forgot to mention W and I were able to communicate that that discussion was ok with her and that my expressing how I initially felt about the big picture (us) that she did not view that as a breach in our agreement on me giving space and her thinking. So that is good: Not really a backslide.
WHY?? No no no R talks .. no us... she fired you remember?? Asking her if she seen this as a breach? Man ... read up DB again... clearly says make the changes and DO NOT point them out right? Do not bring up or worry about a backslide when and if it happens ... accept it .. own it .. LEARN from it and move on.
One other interaction that occurred this evening: W was out while I was there. Dryer stopped working. I go to check fuse box. Do the trip: Other stuff in the house goes out. So I text her to let her know. No answer. Call and leave VM.
Ok .. TM fine .. again not required here, who cares you are the new man on the scene and you will handle it right? She will feel badgered with you constantly contacting her for these things .. "Hey the light is out on the microwave .. I'm on it.... the door squeaked .. I oiled it" Stop updating and just do it if you want to do it .. DO NOT POINT IT OUT.
While this is happening W finally calls me back about an hour after I had left her a VM. I tell her what is going on. She said she had been taking a walk on the beach and left her phone in the car because she didn't want any disturbances.
^^ Take that hint man ... I mean she just told you she did not want to be disturbed.
I will spin this a bit ... we gave you the advice to not be so availible, but you explained it was your 180. Question for ya ... if you were not around to do this ... not the man to take care of the washer what would your wife had done? Maybe she calls someone to fix it ... or maybe she thinks ... man .. hate to admit it but BE would have this taken care of. My W has recently told me certain things in her Condo are all jacked up and she realized how much of that stuff I always took care of ... food for thought my man.
Very calmly I told her that I understand we're going through this whole space thing and that she chooses to leave when I come over. And that is fine. But that we are still married and have the kids. I explained to her that when she leaves I feel she should have her phone readily available because what if an actual emergency occurs.The dryer and power in the house wasn't an emergency, I simply was doing the right thing by informing her of what was happening. But if a real emergency occurred, with the kids or something, she needs to be readily available to answer a call. That I do that for her and she should do the same because as parents it is important.
[i][/i][u][/u]
^^^ Screams fear and control ... you are the man ... you can handle whatever it is ... it was not an emergency but you used this event to provide a what if scare tactic .. you are not going to scare your W back .... can you see how this is pressure added from a non-issue? Ok the washer acted up while she was out collecting her thoughts or doing whatever ... instead of coming back and finding out you handled it without a peep ... she has this scare tactic tossed at her and is made to feel guilty for doing what .... EXCACTLY what she said she needed .. space and time away from you which you intruded on.
BE .. I say this because I was there, I seen how the scared hurt little boy can wreck this part ... you have to get detached and stop pursuing. Because all ^^^^ is not attractive ... read up on sandi's WW threads .. there are 3 of them and they are golden ... but only if you take away from the pain others have gone through and use the tools provided.
Points all taken Cal. But what about my thoughts from today?
BE,
Gosh...you sure TALK A LOT. Do you like the sound of your own voice??!!!
STOP talking and use your ears more often.
BE,
Gosh...you sure TALK A LOT. Do you like the sound of your own voice??!!!
STOP talking and use your ears more often.
Not sure how to respond to that. Found it to be rude but I'm not going to be rude back. Thanks Wonka.
Points all taken Cal. But what about my thoughts from today?
Honestly .... I think you believe you are seeing progress but in fact you are not DBing ... which is a very slippery slope. Your WW is just content she has you off her back so to speak for a couple months .. seems you are just going to try to live up with the gag order for those couple months .... my question what has changed? NOTHING. You are only showing that you MAYBE can zip it for a month or two ... you are not GALing, you are still pursuing, you are not getting your W to notice your 180's but rather pointing them all out.
So from where I sit, you are still acting out of fear, insecure of where you are with W ... this is understandable, but it will not draw your W toward you, she can sense it even if you zip it for the 2 month agreement. This time is going to go by fast and I would suspect you need to do more than mow the yard and not have R talks to get your M back on track.
BE,
Gosh...you sure TALK A LOT. Do you like the sound of your own voice??!!!
STOP talking and use your ears more often.
Not sure how to respond to that. Found it to be rude but I'm not going to be rude back. Thanks Wonka.
BE:
Why do you find it rude? It's an observation that a virtual stranger has made about you. I know comments can be perceived to be rude/hurtful. Been on the receiving end of them. But what I've learned is that if it's hurting me, and it's coming from a virtual stranger(s) - digging into why it bothers me? Helps me identify within the process.
I hope you take the opportunity to dig a little to see why this comment bothered you.
... Not sure how to respond to that. Found it to be rude but I'm not going to be rude back. Thanks Wonka.
Hi B, I like to examine how people respond/communicate in different circumstances. Here, you were attacked by Wonka.
But take a step back and see how YOU responded to the attack. You thanked her. That was weird b/c you did not understand her comment. You did not directly say she attacked you, instead you
observed she attacked you ("Found it to be rude...") And then you self-righteously (perhaps passive aggressively) stated that "I'm not going to be rude back."
I think Wonka (who is a very wise vet) hit the nail square on the head with you. You were attacked. Instead of listening, or show any attempt to learn from what she was saying, you talked. And the words you spoke revealed some things about you. And what was revealed does not seem to be the words of someone who communicates well.
So when your W attacks you how do you respond? Do you use this same pattern that you are showing here in your response to Wonka?
^^^^
BE, You said you see the 2 approaches that don't work. Going completely dark and fully pursuing.
You also said you are doing whats working this week, but that's still not the case. Which makes me wonder if during those 3 months you really were just leaving her completely alone.
Regardless, say you did go completely dark and then full pursuit, your going from opposite ends of the spectrum to what you need to be doing. Much less talking to her, give her space. LISTEN to what she's saying now, not before. You have to stop the damage that's being done now and change the relationship dynamics before you can win her back. Theres a time and place for everything.
As for seeing the comment as being rude, sometimes 2x4's come across that way. The whole purpose of them is to get a message across that people don't seem to understand, even after being told many times.
You can do this but you need to reconsider what you have been doing and really listen.
Points all taken Cal. But what about my thoughts from today?
Honestly .... I think you believe you are seeing progress but in fact you are not DBing ... which is a very slippery slope. Your WW is just content she has you off her back so to speak for a couple months .. seems you are just going to try to live up with the gag order for those couple months .... my question what has changed? NOTHING. You are only showing that you MAYBE can zip it for a month or two ... you are not GALing, you are still pursuing, you are not getting your W to notice your 180's but rather pointing them all out.
So from where I sit, you are still acting out of fear, insecure of where you are with W ... this is understandable, but it will not draw your W toward you, she can sense it even if you zip it for the 2 month agreement. This time is going to go by fast and I would suspect you need to do more than mow the yard and not have R talks to get your M back on track.
I think what we are all saying is that you are equating "niceness" with "progress".
We are all concerned that by not going through this process, that in 2 months when you open your mouth about reconciling, she won't have changed her mind.
Now I don't know that this is the ONLY way to keep a WAS, and what you're doing MAY work. But it isn't the stuff that's inherent to this process and this site. So I'm willing to trust in the people that have seen this play out over and over again.
That's why we're all nervous for you.
BE
I do think instead of actually sitting down and letting the advice here sink in .. you give it a quick read, nod your head, maybe even see the logic but I do get the vibe you are going to do what you are going to do ... Good Luck with that approach as I think in your sitch you have to change ^^^^^ ... thats just my opinion.
There is really nothing in it for me to try and let you know I have been where you are, infact worse as I have had D papers drawn up and filed 3 times, W left, there was a A with a OM. I did what you are doing and it continued to do the opposite direction of where I wanted it to go. Call me the Ghost of Christmas Future trying to show you where you will end up if you do not change.
As far as attacks, 2x4's, whatever you will call it ... after a bit the vets will get frustrated after reading pages on pages of sound advice but the LBS continues to self destruct ... its hard to watch to be honest.
Guys. You are all right. I am wrong. I just messed up bad. W sent me a text saying she was having friends over for dinner so if / when I drive by to not freak out. I called her. I talked R. She became furious.
You are all right: I am not detached. I am terrified. I fear for my kids. I'm confused. I'm codependent. I keep pursuing and trying to understand thinking I can talk my way out of this.
I just want to quit.
no no no, you don't quit, never quit.
Its understandable to be afraid, we all are/were. This isn't easy and it will take you time to figure it out BUT YOU CAN DO IT. STFU smoothie, keep thinking about that, all the time.
We all care what happens to you and want you to succeed. Take some time to just regain yourself tonight and don't talk to her at all.
Guys. You are all right. I am wrong. I just messed up bad. W sent me a text saying she was having friends over for dinner so if / when I drive by to not freak out. I called her. I talked R. She became furious.
You are all right: I am not detached. I am terrified. I fear for my kids. I'm confused. I'm codependent. I keep pursuing and trying to understand thinking I can talk my way out of this.
I just want to quit.
Ok .. well I am not surprised ... not one bit. I will not say We tried to warn you either (though I guess I just did)
Here is the deal .. you backslid ... it happens. Drop it and move on. You really need to figure out what you want out of all this ... its not going to end next week, next month ... who knows how long it will take ... I have been at this almost a year ... DBing I mean, been in bad shape marriage wise far longer.
I will tell you this ... as a$$ backwards as it feels, sticking to this process helps, helps you , and then in turn you will see a difference in your relationships .. not just your M, but with your kids, heck I recently DB'd a client here at work and was amazed with the results.
Trouble is ... its a ton of work, you have to train like you are going to run a marathon .. you just do not sign up for a 5k and expect to finish it the first go ... you have to put in the work first ... if not .. you will collapse far before you even sniff the finish line
Its up to you ... again .. your choice in how you want to continue, you can not half a$$ this.
Guys. You are all right. I am wrong. I just messed up bad. W sent me a text saying she was having friends over for dinner so if / when I drive by to not freak out. I called her. I talked R. She became furious.
WHY, WHY do you still resolutely persist in going down this cheeseless tunnel??! 
You are all right: I am not detached. I am terrified. I fear for my kids. I'm confused. I'm codependent. I keep pursuing and trying to understand thinking
I can talk my way out of this.Still doing the same old thing over and over again expecting things to change. That's the definition of insanity.I just want to quit.
So let me get this straight. You want to quit because YOUR WAY ins't getting anywhere? Smart?How about STOP ....S-T-O-P....talking.to.W.for.real.
You just won't and are completely unwilling to stop talking because you have this thick head that just won't open up one jot to LISTEN to the wise people here who have trod the path before you.
You want to keep hitting those brick walls...sure, be my guest. I am not living your life. So...do what you want to do.
And end up divorced.
BTW, talk is cheap.
Just to add to what others said - what does quitting MEAN? Divorce? Suicide? You know neither of those are what you actually want.
So instead of quitting, why don't you START actually DBing. For REAL.
BE
Just thought about this .. not sure have you/are you in IC?
Might wanna schedule something, I know for me it was rough, I was raised in a place where "Guys dont do that" ... i will tell you early on .. where you are ... it helped me get through some things .. Me kinda things .. Mirror work is where your salvation is and I do honestly believe that ... if you are not going to do it through this forum, and its hard to honestly .. you should be trying to improve yourself outside of here.
And you know what? All of this could have been avoided if you had sent this light, breezy text back to W:
Thanks...have fun with your friends. Enjoy!
How simple is that ...and confident too.
I have one I two choices here. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said all you guys are right and I'm wrong. I was being serious.
I either throw in the towel. Go home and tell her do whatever you want but I don't want a divorce.
Or I start fresh right now and LISTEN to all of you and ACTUALLY DB.
I want you guys to understand I'm not dense: my depressive nature, PTSD and anxiety disorder cause me to have CONSTANT racing thoughts and I struggle tremendously with acting on emotion.
I have one I two choices here. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said all you guys are right and I'm wrong. I was being serious.
I either throw in the towel. Go home and tell her do whatever you want but I don't want a divorce.
Or I start fresh right now and LISTEN to all of you and ACTUALLY DB.
I want you guys to understand I'm not dense: my depressive nature, PTSD and anxiety disorder cause me to have CONSTANT racing thoughts and I struggle tremendously with acting on emotion.
One of these is good. One is not.
Thank you for your honesty, BE.
I want you guys to understand I'm not dense: my depressive nature, PTSD and anxiety disorder cause me to have CONSTANT racing thoughts and I struggle tremendously with acting on emotion.
What are some of the solutions that can be used to tackle these ^^^ challenges? Cali just gave you an hint....
-IC?
-Get on some AD meds?
The most important things you MUST do right now are:
-Drink a lot of the STFU smoothie (Cali has pallets of orange-vanilla flavored ones that he can ship out to you)
-GAL (you are obsessing over your situation/W waaay too much)
What are your GAL activities/plans for tonight, Saturday day, Saturday evening, Sunday day, Sunday evening?
Hang in there.
And you know what? All of this could have been avoided if you had sent this light, breezy text back to W:
Thanks...have fun with your friends. Enjoy!
How simple is that ...and confident too.
Yes Ma'am.
I wouldn't pass up the suggestion for IC. I had fears of it and thought I didn't need it in the past. I even have buddies who mock counseling when I'm around but I don't care now.
It's some of the best money I've ever spent in my life. Just don't schedule it then call W to tell her.
Thank you for your honesty, BE.
I want you guys to understand I'm not dense: my depressive nature, PTSD and anxiety disorder cause me to have CONSTANT racing thoughts and I struggle tremendously with acting on emotion.
What are some of the solutions that can be used to tackle these ^^^ challenges? Cali just gave you an hint....
-IC?
-Get on some AD meds?
The most important things you MUST do right now are:
-Drink a lot of the STFU smoothie (Cali has pallets of orange-vanilla flavored ones that he can ship out to you)
-GAL (you are obsessing over your situation/W waaay too much)
What are your GAL activities/plans for tonight, Saturday day, Saturday evening, Sunday day, Sunday evening?
Hang in there.
I am on ADs already: recently increased dose. I should probably set up a counselor.
As far as GAL: I'm working all weekend. Seeing my kids Sunday afternoon.
All I do is work and obsess over this. That is me being brutally honest.
Well, well, well...that took less than week and you know what? Your wife and I knew you wouldn't keep your mouth shut when it came to relationship and divorce talks. You've been building up to it since she mentioned the visitation schedule w/the kids.
Like Wonka pointed out...how many times are you going to hit that brick wall before you put that duct tape over your mouth and listen to what we have advised you to do? Do you like backsliding? Do you like knowing that your wife knows you better than you know yourself?
Wonka's absolutely correct. You do like to talk about your situation and what you perceive as good dbing. You've been skirting the db edge and not actually doing what you need to be doing for you.
I will repeat one more time some of the things that we all have advised you to do. It will be up to you as to whether you follow them or not, but if you don't, that is on you and you will have no one to blame but yourself if your wife files. You have disrespected her wishes time and time again and how does that look attractive to her? It doesn't. So here goes:
1) Cut back on doing things at the home. You can still do some things, but don't jump up and do them all. After all, it is her residence for the time being.
2) When you are there visiting w/the kids and your wife goes out...DON'T CALL HER UNLESS IT IS AN EMERGENCY!
3) Please stop trying to control your wife and what she's doing with her life. You are separated and what she does is none of your business, i.e., just as what you do is none of her business. Respect her boundaries.
4) Start taking the kids out and visit w/them elsewhere. There are plenty of places that you can take them w/o it costing you any money. If you don't know...start scanning the local papers. Summer is upon us and there are going to be all kinds of activities for the kids and YOU.
5) You need to stop being so darn needy, controlling and whiny around your wife. If an IC can help you with this...go for it!
6) Find things to do for yourself. You've got entirely too much free time to sit around and think about her and what she's doing. Trust me, she's not thinking about you unless you are bugging her. Not a good quality in any person.
7) I want to read more about what you are doing w/yourself and less about your wife. If you want to talk about your kids and what you are doing w/them, then fine...but until you stop obsessing about her, you will never let her go so that she can find herself.
Now, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back to listening to what the posters are advising you to do. Listen, listen, listen. We aren't here dishing out advice and offering up support just to hear ourselves think and talk. The only person that can help you is yourself.
That is my two cents and no, it's not a 2x4.
Well, well, well...that took less than week and you know what? Your wife and I knew you wouldn't keep your mouth shut when it came to relationship and divorce talks. You've been building up to it since she mentioned the visitation schedule w/the kids.
Like Wonka pointed out...how many times are you going to hit that brick wall before you put that duct tape over your mouth and listen to what we have advised you to do? Do you like backsliding? Do you like knowing that your wife knows you better than you know yourself?
Wonka's absolutely correct. You do like to talk about your situation and what you perceive as good dbing. You've been skirting the db edge and not actually doing what you need to be doing for you.
I will repeat one more time some of the things that we all have advised you to do. It will be up to you as to whether you follow them or not, but if you don't, that is on you and you will have no one to blame but yourself if your wife files. You have disrespected her wishes time and time again and how does that look attractive to her? It doesn't. So here goes:
1) Cut back on doing things at the home. You can still do some things, but don't jump up and do them all. After all, it is her residence for the time being.
2) When you are there visiting w/the kids and your wife goes out...DON'T CALL HER UNLESS IT IS AN EMERGENCY!
3) Please stop trying to control your wife and what she's doing with her life. You are separated and what she does is none of your business, i.e., just as what you do is none of her business. Respect her boundaries.
4) Start taking the kids out and visit w/them elsewhere. There are plenty of places that you can take them w/o it costing you any money. If you don't know...start scanning the local papers. Summer is upon us and there are going to be all kinds of activities for the kids and YOU.
5) You need to stop being so darn needy, controlling and whiny around your wife. If an IC can help you with this...go for it!
6) Find things to do for yourself. You've got entirely too much free time to sit around and think about her and what she's doing. Trust me, she's not thinking about you unless you are bugging her. Not a good quality in any person.
7) I want to read more about what you are doing w/yourself and less about your wife. If you want to talk about your kids and what you are doing w/them, then fine...but until you stop obsessing about her, you will never let her go so that she can find herself.
Now, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back to listening to what the posters are advising you to do. Listen, listen, listen. We aren't here dishing out advice and offering up support just to hear ourselves think and talk. The only person that can help you is yourself.
That is my two cents and no, it's not a 2x4.
Yes ma'am. Can we start with goals? I need real help.
I want you guys to understand I'm not dense: my depressive nature, PTSD and anxiety disorder cause me to have CONSTANT racing thoughts and I struggle tremendously with acting on emotion.
Understood.
I'm on a very mild med. It's not even an AD. It's more of a 'stabalizer' and mild sedative.
I had racing thoughts like crazy. I'm talking pages and pages of journaling in the middle of the night. Grandious thinking. All or nothing. Extremes. Anxiety driven.
Some of this was worked out throuhg IC. I think that's critical. But the med was like putting on a coat when I was outside in the freezing cold. I could still feel my emotions. But they didn't overpower me. I am still myself. I am still driven. I am still exceptional in some ways. But I am in control of me.
I'd really, really recommend a good IC. Frankly your M is not the biggest issue right now. Mental health comes first.
Hello BE,
I'm sorry I haven't been around for you. I’ve been extremely busy and haven’t been on the DB Forum much at all for a few days.
It sounds like you are getting good advice, especially from Wonka!
Any GAL activities planned for the weekend?
Hang in there!
Bob
Guys. I have to do a little soul searching. There is part of me that is asking if this is worth it. If she is worth it? Do I deserve better?
I know the part I played. I don't hide from it. But her part is very big as well.
This while separation is like the dynamic of our entire relationship on steroids: her way or the highway, no compromise, verbally berating me.
I am beaten down. I am tired.
You know I wasn't always like this at all. I'm 35 and didn't start having problems until I was about 30.
Just to vent a little bit and to explain why I need to decide if she is even worth it:
I've had people who have been close to our r since the beginning approach me over the last 6 months and tell me: she beat the sh"t out of you mentally for 8 years and you snapped. And now she blames you.
I don't know if that's the truth or not. But I did always feel controlled by her. Almost afraid in a sense. Always trying to please her but it never being reciprocated or good enough.
It's strange. I feel for my children. They are such wonderful little people and I don't want then to grow up like this.
There is a big part of me that wants to stop messing around and just committ fully to DBing the right way, not my way, and see where it takes me because at this point what else do I have to lose.
But I have that nagging question: is she really a person I want to be back in a r with?
The honest answer is if she weren't willing to change some: probably not.
I don't know. I'm just really really emotionally and mentally beat down.
I don't know. I'm just really really emotionally and mentally beat down.
BE,
I completely get it, really I do. You ask great questions that, for the most part, only you can answer.
But, with the way you are feeling now (completely understandable!), I don't feel like now would be the time for you to make any major decisions. Heck, take things one hour at a time if you have to. Don't even think about tomorrow right now.
You need time to reflect. I'll bet you are stronger than you think.
Maybe this verse will give you a moment or two of encouragment:
“But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength” (2 Timothy 4:17).Bob
You have so much to work on with yourself, but you continue to place all the focus on her. I understand your tired and beat up, but its only because you keep making what shes doing about you, and your DB'ing about her. You have both backwards.
You spent how many months pursuing and obsessing about her (as we all have) and now you want to give up? BD'ing has a very important part associated with it, making YOU a better person.
I would leave that question for now and finally DB, for you.
You're running on emotions right now and wanting to make decisions, its a bad combination.
Change who you are, and maybe she will change who she is. Move forward with your life. That doesn't mean leave her, it doesn't mean keep pursuing her. It means move YOU forward and make BEClem the best person he can be.
Thank you Bob.
I know Fogg: I'm just really drained man. I won't make any rash decisions.
I'm just torn on two things: can I do this and is it worth it.
There is part of me that is asking if this is worth it. If she is worth it? Do I deserve better?
is she really a person I want to be back in a r with?
OK, Im probably going to repeat what Fogg said ^^^. And Im going to repeat what I and many have said in so many posts in your thread. I dont know why I keep posting the same comments to you. But I truly want to help you, so here goes anyway.
The problem with your thoughts is that the answers to the questions you are asking here DONT MATTER. You have been hurt; your wife, who you love very much has fired you asher husband. She has made it clear she does not want you to be her husband anymore. That [censored]. That hurts. That would and does crush EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT IS HERE.
So, what can you do? Whats the healthy thing to do?
1) Detach from her. Stop letting the things that she does or thinks hurt you. Stop trying to control her to change her mind.
2) Get your own life. Get yourself where you dont depend on her as your source of happiness. Take pride in yourself. Take joy in your friends.
3) Improve yourself. You have gotten such an important lesson from your wife; you know the things about yourself that other people dont like. You learned about what you dont like about YOURSELF. Now, you have time to fix and improve them. Take advantage of it.
From what I understand, these are the three keys to DBing. At no point in any of that above did I make mention of reconciling, of getting your wife back, of repairing your marriage. The above things are going to take you weeks or months. You will be a completely different person by then; so IT DOESNT MATTER what your answers to the ^^^ are right now. Just like you dont want your wife to answer the "should we stay together" question now, you dont need to answer the "is she worth it" question now.
The only way to proceed here is to work on you. On BEClem. And not to get your wife back....to make you the person you and your kids deserve for you to be.
Your whole life, as you said is your work, and your family. And that just plain isnt healthy. By making that your whole life, you cant heal and improve yourself in any of the three things I mentioned above. You just flat out have to do those things to become a whole person again...you cant control what your W will do or whether she will give you another chance....you CAN control you and doing the things you need to do to.
Im wishing you the best. I really am.
Thank you Bob.
I know Fogg: I'm just really drained man. I won't make any rash decisions.
I'm just torn on two things: can I do this and is it worth it.
You're most welcome, BE. I am elated to hear you won't make any rash decisions. I think Fogg put things better than I did. (Hi Fogg!)
Can I do this and is it worth it? I can't tell you how many times I wondered that myself. Then, I remembered all the good times with my lovely W and, with the support of the loving people here, my answer for myself is "Yes, it is worth it."
Nothing truly worthwhile is ever easy, as I'm sure you know.
Keep that thought in focus, keep working on yourself and try to detach.
I am certain you CAN do this, BE!
Bob
I guess it doesn't matter what the answer to those questions are.
Drop the rope. Move on. Get healthy. Focus on me and my kids. Let the chips fall where they may. Control me and only me.
I'm just torn on two things: can I do this and is it worth it.
You can do this. I wont lie, its going to be hard, very hard. But at the end of this you will walk out a better man, with or without W. Meaning it will also be worth it no matter the outcome. Trust this process.
Once you properly DB it will get easier also, you will be able to cope better. I obsessed in the beginning also. Not just some, I mean nearly every second of every day. Going over things for hours and hours in my head, couldn't think of ANYTHING else. We keep trying to show you this is what happens, all of us have experienced it to some extent. We are also showing you how to get through it.
I was so done at one point I wanted to end my life, things get better.
We have all been in the place you are right now but doing what works by DB'ing will get you past it with time.
These are what I see the two outcomes if you DB.
1. You and W come out of this a stronger couple-WIN.
2. You and W don't come back together but you have made yourself such a badass person you will happy regardless-WIN.
WIN-WIN situation, just realize it, do the work, profit from it.
I'm just torn on two things: can I do this and is it worth it.
You can do this. I wont lie, its going to be hard, very hard. But at the end of this you will walk out a better man, with or without W. Meaning it will also be worth it no matter the outcome. Trust this process.
Once you properly DB it will get easier also, you will be able to cope better. I obsessed in the beginning also. Not just some, I mean nearly every second of every day. Going over things for hours and hours in my head, couldn't think of ANYTHING else. We keep trying to show you this is what happens, all of us have experienced it to some extent. We are also showing you how to get through it.
I was so done at one point I wanted to end my life, things get better.
We have all been in the place you are right now but doing what works by DB'ing will get you past it with time.
These are what I see the two outcomes if you DB.
1. You and W come out of this a stronger couple-WIN.
2. You and W don't come back together but you have made yourself such a badass person you will happy regardless-WIN.
WIN-WIN situation, just realize it, do the work, profit from it.
Thank you so much. Ok. I guess it's time to take the plunge.
If I'm hearing everyone correctly I need to focus on detaching and GAL.
Stop trying to control her. Approach this as if I am moving on with my life.
Am I hearing that properly?
I could use some help with goal setting. All of you are so familiar with my sitch that I think it would be helpful.
So screw it: let's do it right. I'm ready guys. And I'm LISTENING now
Ok. Time to get to work!
I'm going to let one of the experts help you with goal setting. I'm terrible at it.
But in the meantime, start thinking of ways to GAL by yourself. What things can you do? What people can you meet? What exciting things can you do with the kids?
Let me brainstorm a bit on GAL. I'll post some ideas when I have them.
Let me brainstorm a bit on GAL. I'll post some ideas when I have them.
Good idea BE!
Bob
Ok guys. I will brainstorm GAL ideas and post in the next day or two.
I need specific advice on the following if I am to do this right:
How the heck to I detach?
What should my goals be?
How do I measure them?
How do I change the dynamic of my interactions with my W?
I can't avoid interactions because of the kids so how do I completely change them to stop being destructive?
How the heck to I detach?
Hello BE,
You asked very good questions! When you first joined this forum, Cadet most likely posted someuseful threads. One was on detachment. It's a bit long, but you should take the time to read thru it all.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Anyone want to take a stab at BE's other questions? BE is very motivated now and needs our help.
I'll check back with you tomorrow. Hang in there!
Bob
Another question is finances: how do I handle that going forward. Any change? I can explain how we do things if necessary.
BEC,
To respond to your questions:
1. How the heck to I detach? There is a detachment thread out there that I posted a while back. It is lengthy, but it gives you the info you need. Another poster has already posted the link to your thread for you. READ IT! It will help you better understand what to do and not do.
2. What should my goals be? That depends upon you. One of your goals should be a visit to a therapist or someone who can help you work through the anxiety, etc. You can also speak to a priest, minister, etc. who will keep your conversations private. But, again, goals are something that you set and they are as individual as the people who post here. So make a list and we will be happy to review it and provide comments and/or suggestions.
3. How do I measure them? This will most likely be on how well you are able to meet those goals and what you want to achieve when accomplishing those goals. BTW, the goals should really be about you.
4. How do I change the dynamic of my interactions with my W? Okay, now, you've already been given plenty of advice and suggestions about this. Go back and re-read your threads and highlight those suggestions. I, for one, know that I've given you suggestions and so have the other posters. You are going to have time to re-read them when you are at home from work and seeing the kids.
5. I can't avoid interactions because of the kids so how do I completely change them to stop being destructive? Again, we have given you some suggestions. If you keep your conversations to finances and the children, you will be okay...but you have to learn to not discuss the relationship and divorce. Those two things are off the table effective a month ago. Your wife's interactions are not the problem as long as you stay on safe subjects. Again, we all have advised you of this time and again.
6. What about finances? How has that been working for you? If you are comfortable in leaving the finances the way that they are and she is not spending like a blue streak, then there isn't a problem. However, as time goes on, she may very well set up her own separate accounts. If this happens, you will need to then provide money to her for that account.
BEC, you have been given "specific" advice time and again. As I stated, go back and re-read your threads. They are full of valuable and important information that are "golden" to those who are struggling with interactions with crisis people. One thing that I am going to suggest is that instead of providing a knee jerk response to some of her message, you might want to hold off a while before responding. You tend to come out swinging a bit and that's not going to help your situation. Step away, advise her that you want to think about her suggestions and you'll get back to her. There is nothing that says you need to respond right then and there.
You have a lot of homework to review...this homework should help keep your mind busy and also help you this weekend.
Here are two phrases that I use and you need to remember: "when in doubt, do nothing". Also, "sit quietly, the answers will be revealed to you".
They do work.
BEC,
To respond to your questions:
1. How the heck to I detach? There is a detachment thread out there that I posted a while back. It is lengthy, but it gives you the info you need. Another poster has already posted the link to your thread for you. READ IT! It will help you better understand what to do and not do.
Hey BEC,
I posted job's detachment thread last night. It is very enlightening.
By the way, thank you job for the great job on that!
Bob
You're welcome BEC. Please don't give up on yourself.
Bob
I won't Bob. Focus of the day was detachment.
Setting up a counselor this week as well.
I won't Bob. Focus of the day was detachment.
Setting up a counselor this week as well.
How was day 1 of DBing?
Any updates?
Pretty good. I had work at both of my jobs today so I was pretty busy all day.
Read up on detachment. Thought about that a lot today. I read Jobs thread on detachment several times and see so much of my R in that.
No interaction with W except to drop off money between morning and afternoon jobs. I really didn't even say anything to her. Just handed her the money and left.
Still brainstorming GAL: I def have to start playing golf. I'm actually a very good player and love the game and have only played once this year: that is unhealthy.
^^^ good work B. Getting your focus on you, and what you enjoy doing is a good thing. Playing golf? I hope all of your chips hit the green!
BE,
This is a good first step. Good for you!
Hope you can break 90 and no mulligans! From a fellow golfer to another one. If I had my own preference, I'd play golf every single day.
BE,
This is a good first step. Good for you!
Hope you can break 90 and no mulligans! From a fellow golfer to another one. If I had my own preference, I'd play golf every single day.
My avg score is around 77-78. I "normally" would play about 1 round per week and here I am it's almost June and I've played once. That's just silly.
Really really focusing on "creating my emotional barrier" for detaching myself from the dysfunction.
I've thought about taking surf lessons....always wanted to and would be something very different I've never done before.
And going to the local park to play pickup basketball. Something I haven't done in years.
Good for you. You'll enjoy getting back into those hobbies and sports that you've not done for a long time. Good exercise and a great way to alleviate stress.
BTW, it's time to start a new thread. I just clicked the 104 reply to your thread.
Enjoy your afternoon!
Yes ma'am. Will start new thread. Thanks Job.