Greetings all,
I have been a fairly long-time lurker on these boards looking for some inspiration and guidance, but I am probably at a crossroads here and I thought I might seek the help of the community moving forward here.
OK, as briefly as possible, here's my story:
About a year ago, my wife of five years (with whom I have a D4 and a S1) brought to me some relationship "talks" about being dissatisfied about a few things. She was generally unhappy with her life and job, and also brought up our relationship. I (shamefully) assumed it was mostly her job, and that it would pass when she got a new better job. She did get a better job, but her dissatisfaction with our marriage persisted. She said she had been considering divorce and felt awful about it. I thought this was the normal contemplating and reevaluation that people do when they are unhappy.
After several more talks, it became clear that no, this was not slight unease; she was seriously considering divorce. I asked if we could go see a marriage counselor, and she agreed but on the condition that we see a counselor who would consider divorce as a viable option for our marriage. We had three sessions (which did not progress anywhere). Then, seven months ago, my W went out of town to see some old college friends (including her ex before me, who is now married). When she returned she said that she and her ex had "said things to each other that married people shouldn't say" and that she had agreed to break off all contact with him, but that she was "DONE" with our marriage.
The next day, I went out and got "The Divorce Remedy" and have off-and-on attempted to apply the principles and to see if I can turn my situation around.
We are still living together in the same house, still sleeping in the same bed, still caring for our children together, still doing things together.
She will not touch me in any way, no hugs, no kisses, no "I love you"s. She has not worn her wedding ring since that night seven months ago and she has been perpetually moody and angry ever since. We have spoken many times about what is really going on with her emotions, what is prompting her to make this choice, and these days, the only thing she will bring up about our relationship is that she thinks she "got married for the wrong reasons" and that she doesn't want to work on our relationship, and that she has never had what she wanted, but that she was scared to say so early in our relationship. I have simply maintained that I think our relationship can work, and that we have a responsibility to at least try for our children's sake. I have said I would not actively create an acrimonious divorce process, but that I would not push it forward. She has (apparently) not taken any action toward an actual split in the meantime, just brooded about it.
Here is the current situation: I have been seeing an individual counselor every two weeks for 3 months now. I was initially going to him to work on me and my perceived faults, since my wife was unwilling to consider any more counseling (even discernment counseling). A couple of sessions in, he suggested that I try to get my wife in so that she could talk about her emotions with somebody, since she seems to be unwilling to take a hard look at them herself. I had reservations, but I brought this to my wife and she reluctantly agreed. After her second session with the IC, she was very upset and angry and sent me a text saying "I know it is not your intent, but since I am unfeeling and emotionally cold, I am about ready to tell everybody to f*** off." I was in a low spot and had already been considering giving up and this anger hit me particularly hard. I called her and told her I'm ready to move forward with the divorce.
But of course not even two days later, I was seriously reconsidering my statement. I am not "ready to move forward" and this dynamic of "she gets frustrated, I maintain my position, she gets angry, I give in," is one of the most toxic emotional processes in our relationship. I don't want it to define us going forward regardless of whether we stay married. The complication here is that she has been immeasurably more pleasant and easy to live with since I told her I was ready. I have been so relieved to be living with an adult human being again, but I know that what she thinks about my emotional state is a lie.
So, my dilemma: I think that I have to tell her what I am thinking and feeling, but I can't help but think that maybe she is more likely to make better choices when she is in a better state of mind. I am trying hard to detach my feelings from hers, to remember that I am not responsible for her everyday mindset. I think she should know that my stand for my marriage is based on values and ideals and is not subject to her emotions.
Well, that got rather long. I'll share some more about my situation later (I have journaled extensively over the last seven months) but I hope that's enough to get a feel for where things are. I can see the challenging and supporting back and forth that goes on here to get people to reexamine themselves and I hope to be able to take part in that.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).
Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi LOst
Sorry you're here, but join the club.
First, read all of Sandi's rules. It'll be hard, but you're going to have to put it in to work. Second, read the links that Cadet will send you as they help enormously. Third don't expect miracles. Ask lots of questions and you'll get some good ideas of what has worked for other people in other situations.
Lastly, take positive action about yourself. Only you can make yourself get through this. You'll normally attracy about five or six regulars to your thread. It's good to talk and use this board as a journal to get you through. I've been here nearly two weeks and it has rescued me from my doom laden responses (well, almost!).
Most importantly, DO NOT beg, plead or show weakness. It's a schoolboy error and your W will lose respect for you.
You mention that you read DR and started applying principles off and on. I don't really understand what that means. The way I understand it is that this is not a process to temporarily solve disputes - it is a way of improving yourself to improve your marriage.
Can you describe more about what you tried and what impact they had?
Thanks for the quick responses, all. I have gone through most of the standard rules and information before. Thank you for the reminder.
Matt - to me "off and on" meant that some times I was sure that DB and DR principles (especially detaching, not being drawn into relationship talks) were exactly what I needed to be doing in my situation. Other times, I was pursuing other methods of trying to find my way out of my situation. For instance, I read "The Five Love Languages" and then promptly tried to engage my W with what I perceived to be her love language (gift giving). This proved to be a mistake, since she was not receptive to it.
Pursuit has been a strong magnet for me. Every time I try to back off of it, I read some new "relationship improvement" technique and keep thinking "I haven't tried that yet!" while not stepping back to evaluate how it will bring me closer to my goals. That's mainly where my "off and on" statement comes from. I know I need to not pursue, but I find it hard.
Here's what I have been doing more specifically:
GAL: Going out every second Thursday after work with work friends, calling and talking to family more, engaging my creativity regularly (music, drawing). I don't have a lot of friends (especially not with kids), and my family all live very far away, so I have difficulty getting out and doing things.
I have been working out very regularly. I am looking better than ever before IMO. I have dropped several unhealthy habits (drinking pop particularly) and have been monitoring my health more closely (getting a physical, monitoring blood pressure to keep ahead of a latent kidney condition).
Other things of focus: I have tried to dedicate more effort to better raising our children. Especially D4 who is well, 4 years old, and can be emotional and headstrong. I got some reference books and went through them with my W, but have not pursued it regularly.
I have been trying to take charge on things in my life and around the house: Soon after my W "made her decision", I planned and executed a large home improvement project (where she had criticized me for being unable to start and finish projects). I have been seeing IC to try and address my approval seeking and the difficulty I have in initiating new things for the better.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
And my W's response to my attempted changes: she has been grateful for the things that I have done (except of course me looking better), but has said that she is reluctant to be too appreciative because she thinks I will automatically construe it as a sign that she is moving closer to reconciling.
Otherwise, she has spent a lot of time brooding and being angry at all the people in her life for not "supporting" her in her decision. A lot of time and very angry. I have said that I am willing to discuss her feelings at any time, but that "support" will be hard. When I maintain my position that I will not be pushing the divorce forward, she acts as though I am being unreasonable. She says she wants it to be amicable, and so do I, but I know that she doesn't need my permission.
Another relevant piece of information:
I know there is an EA going on (text messaging at least since February) but I don't know who and though I don't think it has progressed to a PA, I can't rule it out.
(Finally, just a side note, thanks for hanging with me as I get into the rhythm of posting. For some odd reason, posting on forums induces a surprising amount of anxiety in me so I tend to post quickly, then evaluate my answer afterward.)
A lot of good info. One more question -
You mention your wife is/has been unhappy with your marriage. But I didn't really see WHAT was/is making her unhappy. Can you describe those a bit more? You mention about doing some 180s...how do they relate to THOSE behaviors that made your wife upset?
You actually did something that has probably caused you to be seen more attractively in the eyes of your W. However, now you want to ruin it by telling her how you really feel?
When a man has a WW, that is not the time for him to wear his heart on his sleeve, or to start opening himself to tell her his most deepest desires. If he does, he will lose her interest so fast.......it will make his head spin.
Your W has entered into more than just a phase that will eventually work itself out. Sadly, too many men don't take it seriously when she tells him she is unhappy. By the time he finally gets his eyes opened, she feels completely done with him. She may care for him, like she cares for a relative........but she doesn't feel that sexual attraction that sets him apart from the friend category. That leads to couples becoming more roommates instead of lovers.
A mistake many guys make is doing what he believes would have worked with that gal he married. It could have worked....when she was wanting things between them to be better.......before the M was on the brink of D. What may have worked before things reached this point, won't be effective now. You need to approach this with a different style.
What did you do that could have caused her to be more pleasant recently, and to cool her heels about proceeding with ending the M? When she thought the tables had turned and you were the one who wanted to leave her.
Yes, I know, you guys want to pursue! But it is the wrong move to make here. She has changed, and she will be like any female who feels very turned off toward a certain male. If that male chases and pressures her, it is thoroughly disgusting to her. All it accomplishes is more negative feelings. She is not interested, and there is only one way that usually changes her feelings.
When a wayward wife is thinking seriously about dumping her H, she really doesn't consider the fact he could turn the tables. She may not want him, may not find him exciting/interesting/sexy, unless suddenly he is unavailable and maybe a little aloof when she's around him. B/c he isn't running after her, smothering her with his presence and attention, calling/texting throughout the day, and all those type of clingy behaviors.......it causes her to wonder why. What is he thinking? I wonder how he really feels about ending the M? Does he still desire me? Does someone else want him?!?
This is the old human nature at work, right or wrong.....it is what it is. For a man to be appealing to a woman, he can't be so easily had. Not when she has entered into that wayward zone. Some people want to use the approach that would work fine before she was a WW, but it won't work now. And that is what you will have to realize, that this is much more serious than some marriage improvement program. The more avenues you seek advice (counselors, programs, friends, relatives, books, etc.), the more varied the advice. So you have to realize everyone will not say the same thing.
I encourage you to not reveal your thoughts and feelings to your WW. She needs to wonder. She needs to be conflicted over her decisions. Don't give her reassurances about your undying love, and how she could never do something to change how you feel, or that you will always be there for her. This is not what you tell a WW!
Sounds strange, I'm sure. The whole WW experience is strange, and painful. There are successes, however, so have hope. Just bear in mind that it takes a long time.
Thank you Sandi, Matt.
Sandi - I think you particularly hit it on the head. The primary problems between us were with intimacy and sex (It is pretty obvious, now that I look at it.) In fact, she brought those to me before she started telling me how unhappy she was. I did not work as diligently as I should have on these things: making more time to ourselves, better approaches to initiating intimacy, more attention to her pleasure during sex. For sure, I dropped the ball on that. That still eats at me nearly daily. I feel like I have owned my responsibility for my part in this, but now there is very little I can do here directly.
I hear strongly the advice to pull back and be more aloof. I have even seen it sometimes work. I guess my main problem now is just to know what to say when I talk to her. Because I know she'll want to talk about (as she terms it) "stuff". She even said she wants to talk last night, but it was too late in the evening by then. What do I say when she says, "OK, what's next?"
You say "I don't know. I have a lot of thinking to do, and we both have some pretty big decisions to make. Right now I'm just working on me, and being the kind of man I want to be regardless."
If you want something even stronger, you can add "I realize this isn't working for me either" statement to the above.
Yes, it's scary -- but it's necessary. Sandi has given you some GOLDEN insight into the wayward woman's mind, and you'd be wise to follow her advice. MN you sound like a classic fixer/pleaser/"Mr. Nice Guy" like me, and we have to REALLY work at detaching and not jumping in and trying to fix things! But it's imperative at this stage. Before your wife can feel in love with you again, she has to learn to RESPECT you again, so working on simply re-building attraction and respect should be your starting point. Relationship fixing can -- hopefully -- come later, if she decides to end her affair and return to the marriage.
Starsky
.
Another relevant piece of information:
I know there is an EA going on (text messaging at least since February) but I don't know who and though I don't think it has progressed to a PA, I can't rule it out..
Does your wife know that you know this, MN?
.
Another relevant piece of information:
I know there is an EA going on (text messaging at least since February) but I don't know who and though I don't think it has progressed to a PA, I can't rule it out..
Does your wife know that you know this, MN?
Also, if you're looking through phone records or even her phone. STOP. I had to be corrected too. Snooping gets you nowhere except in trouble.
As FOGG said to me, "If you see something good you gain expectations, if you see something bad it hurts you. Many times what we see doesn't even represent the whole story, and we are biased in our views of seeing what we want to see. "
.
Another relevant piece of information:
I know there is an EA going on (text messaging at least since February) but I don't know who and though I don't think it has progressed to a PA, I can't rule it out..
Does your wife know that you know this, MN?
Yes, she knows that I know. I brought it to her when it first started and I happened upon it by looking at a preview of a text message on her phone. I was apologetic about spying. She was fairly unapologetic.
I have since looked through phone records (more times than I like to admit to) to see if it is still ongoing. I know I need to stop this. I keep allowing myself to check, regardless. Thank you for calling me on it. Make it visible and it becomes hard to deny whether it's a problem.
I was engaging in other spying (I have never snooped around on her phone or her email, however), but all the rest of it has stopped. I see how utterly unhelpful all of it has been to my situation.
On a side note, I think that I need a new IC. When I went to him originally to work on myself and the things I think are getting in the way of my relationship, he said he didn't want me to start working on all those things when they could be not the source of the problem in my M. I said OK, and we talked mostly about my wife and what I think is going on and we spent two sessions where he basically coached me on how to talk my wife into coming in individually. She went in and just got more angry as a result.
Now that that's out of the way, he seems to be saying, "OK, we can work on your approval seeking behaviors if you want" when I feel like we should have been doing that from the beginning. He's even got DB sitting there on his bookshelf, but I feel like he must not think very much of it.
I've spent a fair amount of time in the past trying to find an IC who can be solution-focused and ready to work on me, but I've been having no luck so far. Suggestions on the search?
Thanks for the quick responses, all. I have gone through most of the standard rules and information before. Thank you for the reminder.
Matt - to me "off and on" meant that some times I was sure that DB and DR principles (especially detaching, not being drawn into relationship talks) were exactly what I needed to be doing in my situation. Other times, I was pursuing other methods of trying to find my way out of my situation. For instance, I read "The Five Love Languages" and then promptly tried to engage my W with what I perceived to be her love language (gift giving). This proved to be a mistake, since she was not receptive to it.
Pursuit has been a strong magnet for me. Every time I try to back off of it, I read some new "relationship improvement" technique and keep thinking "I haven't tried that yet!" while not stepping back to evaluate how it will bring me closer to my goals. That's mainly where my "off and on" statement comes from. I know I need to not pursue, but I find it hard.
Sorry you are here but ti's the best place to be for a lousy reason.
You will need to make a choice about which approach to take with this situation -- b/c mixing the approaches up, tends to negate the value of either. Make sense?
More later....keep on keeping on!
Yes, she knows that I know. I brought it to her when it first started and I happened upon it by looking at a preview of a text message on her phone. I was apologetic about spying. She was fairly unapologetic.
I have since looked through phone records (more times than I like to admit to) to see if it is still ongoing. I know I need to stop this. I keep allowing myself to check, regardless. Thank you for calling me on it. Make it visible and it becomes hard to deny whether it's a problem.
I was engaging in other spying (I have never snooped around on her phone or her email, however), but all the rest of it has stopped. I see how utterly unhelpful all of it has been to my situation.
When you can walk by her phone without thinking about it, look at the phone bill without analyzing it, see her on her phone and not wonder who she's talking to, it will make you feel so much better and stronger.
I was really bad about looking through her phone once I suspected an A. W would leave it in the bathroom in the morning and I'd be in there with it all alone with all the time in the world to look through it. And I did. Not once did it make me feel better.
Now, I look at it in the morning and just smile. Because I know no matter what is on that phone, I'm going to be alright.
Anyway, it is really hard, but when you can turn off that need to look, everything gets better. It did in my case at least.
Good luck.
Sorry you are here but ti's the best place to be for a lousy reason.
You will need to make a choice about which approach to take with this situation -- b/c mixing the approaches up, tends to negate the value of either. Make sense?
More later....keep on keeping on!
Yes, thank you for this. I have been reading like a fiend on relationship-building, but of course most of it is focused on a point probably two years ago in my M. So, realizing that, I have stopped trying other exercises and approaches that are not directly relevant to the situation in which I find myself.
-Edit-
And outside of DB/DR, there are not many that are focused on this point in a relationship. So that's my go to for now, and that's why I'm here on the forums at last.
Hey LostMN,
There are so many experienced veteran's here who know what they are doing. Listen to them! Dont snoop and detach. Detaching is hard because it doesnt seem natural, but you need to start doing things different, because what you were doing before wasnt working so detach and do a 180. Read the validation thread. It will help when you talk to W. Good luck and you have great company!
Nick
"I have simply maintained that I think our relationship can work, and that we have a responsibility to at least try for our children's sake.
I have been so relieved to be living with an adult human being again, but I know that what she thinks about my emotional state is a lie."
Welcome MN. I hesitate to post because Sandi's post speaks for itself, and Starsky covered the application. I just wanted to point out the two statements that caught my eye. I agree with both of them, as long as you express your desire to work things out you are double whammied. One, it allows her to cake eat. Two, she feels you are dismissive of her feelings and decision.
Best is to simply accept the D and start rebuilding your life emotionally. Physically, you can let her do the work, but show no signs that it bothers you. Like "meh, whatever, if you want to separate the phone bill that's fine, needs to happen, go ahead."
Just remember this can't be a 'strategy'. She will know when you are really detached and moving on, versus trying to manipulate her. It will show in your reactions, your body language. So while you can't accept the D and detach overnight, it should be your NUMBER ONE goal. She needs to pick up that you are a strong man that won't settle for a M with someone that doesn't appreciate him and will betray him, so while you're not throwing her out, you're not interested in an R with someone like that. If you're not there you will suffer and sabotage yourself until you are, time to get off the ride.
Here's what I have been doing more specifically:
GAL: Going out every second Thursday after work with work friends, calling and talking to family more, engaging my creativity regularly (music, drawing).
I don't have a lot of friends (especially not with kids), and my family all live very far away, so I have difficulty getting out and doing things.
Sorry but You CAN do a lot more GAL than this^^. And you must. You need to meet new people who don't all know your situation so you'll 1) obsess less, which helps you to 2) detach from what your wife is feeling/thinking or doing.
and
3) you will become a happier, more contented man, with more interests, which makes YOU MORE Interesting...and let's face it, even though the goal of GAL is NOT to get your spouse back so much as to get yourself back, it's absolutely going to make you more attractive & interesting to them.
Sort of a paradox, I know. You just cannot detach without GAL.
I have been working out very regularly. I am looking better than ever before IMO.
^^^Nice!! Keep it up!
I have dropped several unhealthy habits (drinking pop particularly) and have been monitoring my health more closely (getting a physical, monitoring blood pressure to keep ahead of a latent kidney condition).
Other things of focus: I have tried to dedicate more effort to better raising our children. Especially D4 who is well, 4 years old, and can be emotional and headstrong. I got some reference books and went through them with my W, but have not pursued it regularly.
"have not pursued what regularly" means what? I have a mantra about dads with wives who are heading out the door of the marriage.
"NO woman is unmoved by the loving interaction between her offspring & their dad." For many of us it's a turn on. Some wives stay married because their spouses are "good fathers."
So, Become the best dad you can become, b/c you should do that anyhow...
and let the kids tell her of what you do, so no need to be "in front" of w while doing it or making sure she knows. That will come off as a tactic, not an authentic change or improvement.
You want your wife to second guess her decision to leave the marriage.
She has negative images of you which she's using to justify that.
Your job now is to counter those negatives with positives.
You want her "Data" about you to be the new improved you, so that she realizes her negative data is inaccurate or out of date.
So if one complaint of hers was that you are "always late", you become MR PUNCTUAL and arrive on time for everything, or early.
Make sense?
What would her complaints about you or the marriage be, IF SHE were here now?
Are any of them valid, which you'd like to work on?
I have been trying to take charge on things in my life and around the house: Soon after my W "made her decision", I planned and executed a large home improvement project (where she had criticized me for being unable to start and finish projects).
So the project is complete? How'd it go? And even if she said nothing, do not assume it meant nothing. It's just that right now, you're the last person to whom she'd admit to having doubts.
I have been seeing IC to try and address my approval seeking and the difficulty I have in initiating new things for the better.
Sounds like good work. Keep it up. It does get better.
If you become the best "LostMN" you can become, then regardless of what your w chooses to do, you will truly be better off.
ALL of your relationships will improve as you become a happier more loving man.
((( )))
On a side note, I think that I need a new IC. When I went to him originally to work on myself and the things I think are getting in the way of my relationship, he said he didn't want me to start working on all those things when they could be not the source of the problem in my M. I said OK, and we talked mostly about my wife and what I think is going on and we spent two sessions where he basically coached me on how to talk my wife into coming in individually. She went in and just got more angry as a result.
Now that that's out of the way, he seems to be saying, "OK, we can work on your approval seeking behaviors if you want" when I feel like we should have been doing that from the beginning. He's even got DB sitting there on his bookshelf, but I feel like he must not think very much of it.
I've spent a fair amount of time in the past trying to find an IC who can be solution-focused and ready to work on me, but I've been having no luck so far. Suggestions on the search?
You can SAY you want to be "more solution based" and keep saying it when the topic veers off toward your childhood, etc. Childhood traumas and unresolved issues are totally worth exploring but at the moment, you don't have time for psycho analysis. You need to be doing more of what helps your m and less of what hurts it.
Not easy but also, not complicated.
Was his coaching about how to speak to your wife helpful at all, other than getting her to see him?
That might be a way for him to help you, if nothing else, while you seek out another counselor whom you tell, you want solution based.
My mc was good and I told him about Div Busting. He read it and felt it was in alignment with a lot of his counseling which was mostly true.
But for ME, the DB coach I had was a Godsend. Exactly what and who I needed.
I ended up having about 15 sessions with her in all. Thank God.
(you know what's more expensive than DB coaching?
- Divorce).
Oh, and if you can, go to Retrovaille, which is for marriages in crisis, like when one has a foot out the door. You don't have to be religious to go (my h isn't atm, and it worried me. But no one preached to us).
It was very helpful. They also have a follow up program that helps you stay on track after the "jump start" weekend.
Good luck
"I have simply maintained that I think our relationship can work, and that we have a responsibility to at least try for our children's sake.
I have been so relieved to be living with an adult human being again, but I know that what she thinks about my emotional state is a lie."
Welcome MN. I hesitate to post because Sandi's post speaks for itself, and Starsky covered the application. I just wanted to point out the two statements that caught my eye. I agree with both of them, as long as you express your desire to work things out you are double whammied. One, it allows her to cake eat. Two, she feels you are dismissive of her feelings and decision.
Best is to simply accept the D and start rebuilding your life emotionally. Physically, you can let her do the work, but show no signs that it bothers you. Like "meh, whatever, if you want to separate the phone bill that's fine, needs to happen, go ahead."
Just remember this can't be a 'strategy'. She will know when you are really detached and moving on, versus trying to manipulate her. It will show in your reactions, your body language. So while you can't accept the D and detach overnight, it should be your NUMBER ONE goal. She needs to pick up that you are a strong man that won't settle for a M with someone that doesn't appreciate him and will betray him, so while you're not throwing her out, you're not interested in an R with someone like that. If you're not there you will suffer and sabotage yourself until you are, time to get off the ride.
Here is what my reaction to your statements might be if I were in your w's shoes:
As for the "maintain that our relationship can work" = "w, you are wrong"
and "we have an obligation go at least try" =
"Do more of the same, which isn't enough for you, but so what?"
And "for the sake of the children" = "b/c you're selfish and any decent mother would care more about them, than about her 'needs'."
She loves the kids. But now she's thinking that she is so unhappy, that they'd be "better off with a happy mother" and there's probably a lot of truth in that. Especially given her recent miserable behaviors.
But you do need to stop "arguing" about how happy she "Should" be or that it's not really very important in the grand scheme of things b/c of those
"obligations to the children" (YAWN)
My question is, where is your passion?
Find some, explore them, and enjoy them.
Oh and not that it matters or anything, but having a strong passionate h is incredibly important to most women.
"I have simply maintained that I think our relationship can work, and that we have a responsibility to at least try for our children's sake.
I have been so relieved to be living with an adult human being again, but I know that what she thinks about my emotional state is a lie."
Welcome MN. I hesitate to post because Sandi's post speaks for itself, and Starsky covered the application. I just wanted to point out the two statements that caught my eye. I agree with both of them, as long as you express your desire to work things out you are double whammied. One, it allows her to cake eat. Two, she feels you are dismissive of her feelings and decision.
Best is to simply accept the D and start rebuilding your life emotionally. Physically, you can let her do the work, but show no signs that it bothers you. Like "meh, whatever, if you want to separate the phone bill that's fine, needs to happen, go ahead."
Just remember this can't be a 'strategy'. She will know when you are really detached and moving on, versus trying to manipulate her. It will show in your reactions, your body language. So while you can't accept the D and detach overnight, it should be your NUMBER ONE goal. She needs to pick up that you are a strong man that won't settle for a M with someone that doesn't appreciate him and will betray him, so while you're not throwing her out, you're not interested in an R with someone like that. If you're not there you will suffer and sabotage yourself until you are, time to get off the ride.
Thank you for posting, Zues.
I had a long post all typed up here about "accepting the D." But now that I reflect on it, and re-read what sandi posted, I think I have an inkling of what you are saying. I need to evaluate, but right now I'm still a bit conflicted.
Here's what I have been doing more specifically:
GAL: Going out every second Thursday after work with work friends, calling and talking to family more, engaging my creativity regularly (music, drawing).
I don't have a lot of friends (especially not with kids), and my family all live very far away, so I have difficulty getting out and doing things.
Sorry but You CAN do a lot more GAL than this^^. And you must. You need to meet new people who don't all know your situation so you'll 1) obsess less, which helps you to 2) detach from what your wife is feeling/thinking or doing.
and
3) you will become a happier, more contented man, with more interests, which makes YOU MORE Interesting...and let's face it, even though the goal of GAL is NOT to get your spouse back so much as to get yourself back, it's absolutely going to make you more attractive & interesting to them.
Sort of a paradox, I know. You just cannot detach without GAL.
I have been working out very regularly. I am looking better than ever before IMO.
^^^Nice!! Keep it up!
I have dropped several unhealthy habits (drinking pop particularly) and have been monitoring my health more closely (getting a physical, monitoring blood pressure to keep ahead of a latent kidney condition).
Other things of focus: I have tried to dedicate more effort to better raising our children. Especially D4 who is well, 4 years old, and can be emotional and headstrong. I got some reference books and went through them with my W, but have not pursued it regularly.
"have not pursued what regularly" means what? I have a mantra about dads with wives who are heading out the door of the marriage.
"NO woman is unmoved by the loving interaction between her offspring & their dad." For many of us it's a turn on. Some wives stay married because their spouses are "good fathers."
So, Become the best dad you can become, b/c you should do that anyhow...
and let the kids tell her of what you do, so no need to be "in front" of w while doing it or making sure she knows. That will come off as a tactic, not an authentic change or improvement.
You want your wife to second guess her decision to leave the marriage.
She has negative images of you which she's using to justify that.
Your job now is to counter those negatives with positives.
You want her "Data" about you to be the new improved you, so that she realizes her negative data is inaccurate or out of date.
So if one complaint of hers was that you are "always late", you become MR PUNCTUAL and arrive on time for everything, or early.
Make sense?
What would her complaints about you or the marriage be, IF SHE were here now?
Are any of them valid, which you'd like to work on?
I have been trying to take charge on things in my life and around the house: Soon after my W "made her decision", I planned and executed a large home improvement project (where she had criticized me for being unable to start and finish projects).
So the project is complete? How'd it go? And even if she said nothing, do not assume it meant nothing. It's just that right now, you're the last person to whom she'd admit to having doubts.
I have been seeing IC to try and address my approval seeking and the difficulty I have in initiating new things for the better.
Sounds like good work. Keep it up. It does get better.
If you become the best "LostMN" you can become, then regardless of what your w chooses to do, you will truly be better off.
ALL of your relationships will improve as you become a happier more loving man.
((( )))
OK, in order:
RE: GAL
GAL remains tough for me. I feel like I don't know how people get to know new people and do things. I know it's not reality, but I have a huge mental obstacle erected that reads "MEETING PEOPLE". OK, find clubs for your interests, find activities for your kids, etc. I get that, but the anxiety persists anyway. I do appreciate the input, I know it's an important part of detaching and I know once every other week is pretty measly for developing one's emotional well-being.
Re: kids
"Have not been pursuing [child-rearing topics] regularly" means that I have read several books (particularly "Positive Discipline" by Jane Nelsen), I try to act on them daily but that some days I fail. I have engaged my W with it, but while she seems to see the necessity of it, she does not want to work particularly hard with me on it. I wanted to really get into the discipline in particular because I and my W have been getting angry at our D4 more often. In part because of this emotional mess, but in part because she can just be trying. I will continue to work on that, and see where I can really make strides in it, even without my W working on it with me.
RE: complaints to work on
I am trying to clear my mind of the resentment and anger and find more of her legitimate complaints that I can meaningfully work on for myself, but I'm sure most here know how hard that is.
RE: Home projects
The vast "home improvement project of 2014" is complete. We had water in the basement last year, then had a contractor install a water-proofing system which entailed ripping out 3/4 of the basement walls and carpet and a shower. I put everything back together (some through contractors, some by myself) and additionally put new insulation in the entire garage (since it is under bedrooms). I am proud of the work I did, and I'm sure my W appreciates it in some sense, but I think that me not finishing projects was a little more of a drummed-up checklist item on "why to leave this marriage" than an honest complaint. I had some that I didn't complete in a timely fashion, and others that she wanted to do but I hadn't got to yet, but there were many more that were completed and are looking good.
A quick THANK YOU to everyone for posting. This is exactly the kind of feedback I came here seeking. While it [censored] that my S1 is home sick today, the fact that he naps away most of the day when he's sick has allowed me to lay down a ridiculous truckload of text in a day.
And here I thought that one would fall on the "mild" side of the swears fence.
-AHEM-
"stinks" that my S1 is home sick
Does your wife know that you know this, MN?
Yes, she knows that I know. I brought it to her when it first started and I happened upon it by looking at a preview of a text message on her phone. I was apologetic about spying. She was fairly unapologetic.
I have since looked through phone records (more times than I like to admit to) to see if it is still ongoing. I know I need to stop this.
I wasn't calling you on the "snooping" -- I happen to be very pro-intel (for a lot of reasons). I was much more interested in the (unfortunately) VERY powerful dynamic of "She's having an affair, you know, and she KNOWS that you know," and yet your actions might be saying you're okay with it even while your words say otherwise.
In my opinion, this is THE worst position to be in, especially for a betrayed husband. Because it's emasculating for YOU, and it kills attraction for HER when you don't immediately lay out -- and enforce -- strong boundaries.
Starsky
Yes, she knows that I know. I brought it to her when it first started and I happened upon it by looking at a preview of a text message on her phone. I was apologetic about spying. She was fairly unapologetic.
Interesting. Just what did the text message say? I find it interesting that you felt the need to apologize for spying, rather than focusing on her inappropriate behavior.
Did you ever -- and I'm talking way back in February, within a day or two of finding out -- just flat-out say to her "I will not live in an open marriage?" What boundaries, if any, DID you discuss? Or has it just been the don't-ask/don't-tell 500-lb. gorilla in the room for three months?
Starsky
Yes, she knows that I know. I brought it to her when it first started and I happened upon it by looking at a preview of a text message on her phone. I was apologetic about spying. She was fairly unapologetic.
Interesting. Just what did the text message say? I find it interesting that you felt the need to apologize for spying, rather than focusing on her inappropriate behavior.
Did you ever -- and I'm talking way back in February, within a day or two of finding out -- just flat-out say to her "I will not live in an open marriage?" What boundaries, if any, DID you discuss? Or has it just been the don't-ask/don't-tell 500-lb. gorilla in the room for three months?
Starsky
The text message was frankly sexual. I'll hold back on the gritty details, but it was sexual.
I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.
Wow, looking back at that is pretty embarrassing. I was a real, honest-to-goodness doormat to some of the most reprehensible behavior I have had to endure from a person.
This, I suppose is the people-pleasing, totally spineless behavior I want to find someone to help me with. I have been reading through Sandi's post on WW and... I'm not sure I can be that yet, but maybe that's the choice that I need to make.
Sorry you are here as well but you will find a lot of support here.
Stop snooping,get off Facebook, Instagram, etc.
They will drive you nuts, you will read between the lines,check who is commenting,obsessing and driving yourself nutty.
I have stayed off since Mother's Day and I feel better for doing so.
I hear her phone going off and see her texting and now I just let it go.
Detaching is the start.
The text message was frankly sexual. I'll hold back on the gritty details, but it was sexual.
I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.
Wow. OK, thank you for being honest. I do think that Sandi's excellent WW threads are a great place for you to start with that particular component (and make no mistake, it's only ONE component -- there are still other things you need to work on, as others are pointing out to you). I understand if you say you're not ready, but I can assure you that until you do address this, your wife is going to continue to lose respect -- and therefore, attraction -- for you.
Can you tell us more what the first 24-48 hours were like following your discovery? What some of the conversations were, and what the in-home dynamic was between the two of you? Try to think back; that is very likely where she would have TESTED you, and it may contain some clues to what you need to do (when you're ready) to regain some power equilibrium.
Again, thanks for being frank and honest, MN. When I go back and read some of my early posts I get horrified as well -- we all do.
Starsky
The text message was frankly sexual. I'll hold back on the gritty details, but it was sexual.
I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.
Wow. OK, thank you for being honest. I do think that Sandi's excellent WW threads are a great place for you to start with that particular component (and make no mistake, it's only ONE component -- there are still other things you need to work on, as others are pointing out to you). I understand if you say you're not ready, but I can assure you that until you do address this, your wife is going to continue to lose respect -- and therefore, attraction -- for you.
Can you tell us more what the first 24-48 hours were like following your discovery? What some of the conversations were, and what the in-home dynamic was between the two of you? Try to think back; that is very likely where she would have TESTED you, and it may contain some clues to what you need to do (when you're ready) to regain some power equilibrium.
Again, thanks for being frank and honest, MN. When I go back and read some of my early posts I get horrified as well -- we all do.
Starsky
Interesting that you would pick that time period as the one that may hold the key to some part of my situation. I say that because to date, that discussion was the only one that seemed to even move the needle on her indifference a little bit. I remember feeling it must have been important, but I don't think I realized why at the time.
The rest of the discussion after my revelation that I knew was about how angry I was at her for not giving me a chance to make changes after her big decision that she wanted out. I was frank and I recall saying very clearly, "I took you for granted and every day that makes me feel like a piece of sh**." I was angry and really fired up. There was no danger to her but she knew I meant what I said. I will get out my journal as soon as I can to try and recollect some of the other details. The next day was very important too, but off the top of my head I can't recall exactly why.
I know the snooping is harmful... but it was an accidental peek at an email (to be fair, a work email we share) that gave me my first hint something wasn't quite right - a "selfie" she'd taken of her and OW with a sunset in the background. The email was titled "last night," and that also tipped me off that she had lied about where she was. Anyway, she spent a whole day texting back and forth voraciously in my presence, and that's when I confronted her about things and she dropped the bomb. I did look at her text messages once or twice after and realized she was pretty much erasing them and covering her tracks. It hurts when she is texting, but I've resolved not to snoop anymore. Like everyone here says, it does no good one way or the other. Can't believe what she says anyway.
OK, so I've got my journal out and I'm reading through the entries around my discovery of her texting. So, I remembered my conversation correctly, I did say that she did not have to tell me and I had no right to ask (*sigh*) but afterward I told her she could choose where to sleep. For some reason, I had that backwards in my brain; I thought she had asked me where she wanted me to sleep (that must have been another time). But she chose to sleep in our bed. I must have had some input there, e.g. "I'd prefer if you slept in our bed" but I didn't write it down and I can't remember for sure.
The next day, my W pulled me aside and said she was surprised my by impassioned speech. I didn't see it at the time, but the fact that I even brought it up seemed to have inspired some respect in her, even if the rest of my actions were not particularly inspiring.
Since I didn't take any sort of stand or set any boundary, the texts continued immediately and our relationship returned essentially to status quo. Kind of disappointing, but that is who I have been through most of this debacle.
OK, things I am thinking of doing immediately:
1. Asking her to sleep somewhere other than the marital bed. From Sandi's thread, I can see I should have done this right away, and that by now it's lost much of it's impact. I think it's the right thing to do anyway.
2. Not joining her this weekend with the kids at her parents' lake house. I desperately want to get away and have a good time, but I need to do that through GAL, not through family activities from which she is intent on excising me.
I will tell her these tonight. (I am trying hard not to append "If I can" to my mental statement.
The next day, my W pulled me aside and said she was surprised my by impassioned speech. I didn't see it at the time, but the fact that I even brought it up seemed to have inspired some respect in her, even if the rest of my actions were not particularly inspiring.
Since I didn't take any sort of stand or set any boundary, the texts continued immediately and our relationship returned essentially to status quo.
What does the above tell you, now that you look back on it and you're not in the heat of the moment?
Starsky
OK, things I am thinking of doing immediately:
1. Asking her to sleep somewhere other than the marital bed. From Sandi's thread, I can see I should have done this right away, and that by now it's lost much of it's impact. I think it's the right thing to do anyway.
2. Not joining her this weekend with the kids at her parents' lake house. I desperately want to get away and have a good time, but I need to do that through GAL, not through family activities from which she is intent on excising me.
I will tell her these tonight. (I am trying hard not to append "If I can" to my mental statement.
I am generally not a big fan of what I call "grand pronouncements," but I don't really see any way you can accomplish #1 without just flat-out telling her. As for #2, you should try to come up with some genuine alternate plans that conflict with it, and then just tell her you have a conflict (and stay mysterious about it).
If pressed on #1 (like, "Why are you just deciding this now?") just say "Well I've done a lot of thinking, and I have decided that this would be best."
If pressed on #2, say "I really do have other plans that conflict, but really -- going forward, if you think about it -- considering where we are right now I decided it would best for me to begin to live my own life. I realize now that there are lot of things I put on hold that no matter WHAT happens with us, I want to rectify." (or something similar).
I would also strongly suggest you start to become more clear and succinct in your communication with her, as in "as long as you're still in inappropriate contact with another man, we are no longer a couple" or even "End your affair and we can talk about it -- I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our marital problems, but I will not discuss it as long as you're still in contact with him."
I know you should have done this back in February, but there's no reason why you can't simply say "I've changed my mind, and I have decided that this is what works best for me."
Do NOT be a d*ck about any of this ^^^. Don't even be cold. Talk to her like you would talk to a good neighbor from down the street. It's more of an attitude of "Hey, this isn't what I wanted but I realize now that I'll be okay no matter what happens." Make sense?
Starsky
My my personal archives, as it reminded me of your sitch, MN:
A Wayward can “Smell your Fear”
It is our demeanor, and day-to-day attitude, moreso than our words or even our actions (if they're transparent and seen to merely be "tactics"), that say "I've moved on."
At least that's been my observation. Marital and relationship forums are filled with all kinds of great betrayed spouses' SPEECHES, who are then perplexed as to why their cheating spouses aren't taking their grand pronouncements seriously. It's because a wayward spouse can SMELL the fear, and they know when you're still there for them, hopelessly attached, and when you've truly moved on.
For some, that comes when you date (I'm not advocating that).
For others, that comes when you serve them with divorce papers, or even just propose a formal separation.
For others, even those things don't work, if they can tell that you REALLY don't mean it.
Puppy
What does the above tell you, now that you look back on it and you're not in the heat of the moment?
Starsky
Yeah, in hindsight I can pretty clearly see the testing and the missed opportunity to at least build some respect.
I would also strongly suggest you start to become more clear and succinct in your communication with her, as in "as long as you're still in inappropriate contact with another man, we are no longer a couple" or even "End your affair and we can talk about it -- I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our marital problems, but I will not discuss it as long as you're still in contact with him."
Starsky
I think I know the answer but should I address the possibility that she has stopped contact with the intent of picking it back up again? That may be what is happening here.
After telling her that I was "ready to move forward with the D" I asked her not to pursue other men until we were done because I did not want that kind of disrespect. She gave some noncommital answer like "You won't have to worry about that" or something. And while I don't take much stock in what she says, I checked phone records last week (no more!) and there was nothing for two weeks.
I wouldn't try to re-establish your hill on a hypothetical. I would wait for proof of re-contact (and only check intel 1x/week, or 2x/month or something if doing so messes with your attitude and your detachment . . . or -- better -- ask a trusted third party to do it for you, and report their findings to you only as needed). THEN I would ask her to be honest with you, and if she lies to your face I would put my hand up in the "stop" position, and end the conversation saying "OK, please just stop. We both know you're lying to me right now -- I know all about you and ______, and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage, and to our family. It looks like we both have some decisions to make." And then leave the house for a few hours.
You don't want to do this on a hypothetical, or a hunch, or a suspicion. And you don't want to "ask." That's weak. A strong man doesn't ask for his boundaries to be respected, he establishes the clear expectation that they will be, lays out the consequences if they're not, and then enforces the consequences if needed. Calmly and without drama.
I would pull back, work on yourself as others have suggested, and do the periodic (or third party) verification to find out where things stand with her affair. THEN act.
But that's just me. You have to do what feels authentic to you and to your values. Only you know what your dealbreakers are, and you are the one who has to live with the consequences if she refuses to respect your boundaries and you allow the consequences to kick in. It's easy for us to say sitting here in the peanut gallery.
Starsky
I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, [b]I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.
Wow, looking back at that is pretty embarrassing. I was a real, honest-to-goodness doormat to some of the most reprehensible behavior I have had to endure from a person.
Before I go any further, may I ask WHY this ^^ happened?
(Is it in your thread somewhere that I missed?)
Why did you believe you "perhaps" had "no right to ASK" her to stop cheating on you?
- If a betrayed spouse apologizes for discovering an affair, while not addressing the actual affair, I have to assume the betrayed spouse EITHER feels the cheater was at least partly justified in having the affair,
and or is so terrified of confrontation, that they cower from it.
-
For the record, I'm NOT a believer in snooping. But nor am I one to suggest apologizing for the discovery of an affair when it's discovered , regardless of the means by which it is revealed.
This, I suppose is the people-pleasing, totally spineless behavior I want to find someone to help me with. I have been reading through Sandi's post on WW and... I'm not sure I can be that yet, but maybe that's the choice that I need to make. [/quote]
The way I see it, you have 3 behavioral options, two of which are only temporary.
#1) You can continue on this path, wondering if "maybe" you need to change. You can just remain in a perpetual state of indecision. The appeal of this choice is that you can continue to avoid confrontation b/c You "don't like confrontation"
* (NOTE--this may surprise you, but none of us enjoys confrontation. We all have to learn to manage it.)*
OR
#2) you could over compensate for passivity in the past, by becoming a punitive and or controlling jerk, from now on.
OR
#3) You can change. Learn to manage confrontation, as all successful adults do. You can learn to set healthy boundaries, boundaries that reflect your own self control & self respect.
Option #1 of "not deciding/not confronting"
has the obvious advantage of requiring no immediate change on your part.
However, this path is only a temporary, b/c chances are your wife will leave if you keep doing more of the same.
Option #2 (over compensating by being a jerk) -
has the advantage of being "simple" and it might even feel good in the moment, now & then. Alas this option is also temporary, b/c chances are your wife will very likely leave you if you choose this option. It's also a pretty crappy example for your children.
Which leaves option #3 as the only permanent path for you, if you wish to remain married AND regain your self respect.
"But it's hard" you may say. I get that. Change is not easy for anyone.
So here's the thing to remind yourself of: Ultimately, Not changing will cost you & your family a lot more, than improving your life will.
Doing more of the same is not going to get you to the victory lap.
That's one of the truly clear pieces of your situation.
The next day, my W pulled me aside and said she was surprised my by impassioned speech. I didn't see it at the time, but the fact that I even brought it up seemed to have inspired some respect in her, even if the rest of my actions were not particularly inspiring.
Since I didn't take any sort of stand or set any boundary, the texts continued immediately and our relationship returned essentially to status quo.
What does the above tell you, now that you look back on it and you're not in the heat of the moment?
Starsky
Exactly my question. Passion & commitment in a man is very attractive, desperation & neediness, NOT so much.
Chronic indecision on big issues (which we usually read as "fear" of making a mistake) is another one of those "not so much" traits.
What do you make of that, and your choices, going forward?
I would also strongly suggest you start to become more clear and succinct in your communication with her, as in "as long as you're still in inappropriate contact with another man, we are no longer a couple" or even "End your affair and we can talk about it -- I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our marital problems, but I will not discuss it as long as you're still in contact with him."
Starsky
I think I know the answer but should I address the possibility that she has stopped contact with the intent of picking it back up again? That may be what is happening here.
After telling her that I was "ready to move forward with the D"
I asked her not to pursue other men until we were done because I did not want that kind of disrespect.
TELL her you won't tolerate it and end the conversation. It's not a "back & forth" request,or is it? Of course, when you say you "won't tolerate" it, that means you DO something if it happens. I'm not saying "SO GO LOOK" but I am saying, enforce the boundaries you set
OR DO NOT SET Them at all...To me, the only thing worse than someone not having boundaries is someone setting them and then Not enforcing them. (It's the same as you ignoring the boundary you set, so why shouldn't she ignore it?)
She gave some noncommital answer like "You won't have to worry about that" or something. And while I don't take much stock in what she says, I checked phone records last week (no more!) and there was nothing for two weeks.
2 things.
I don't want to quibble about small matters or semantics. But your changes should begin now, regardless of OM or what SHE SAYS or DOES or whatever.
You can't treat the mother of your children like sh1t and complain about consequences.
NO I'm not justifying her affair (but I'm sure she has), that's part of the point. SHE HAS.
So by you not keeping your side of the fence in order, she'll use that and any other negative images she has of you to justify it going forward. (**This is not to be confused with pursuit).
Counter those negatives she has of you, with positives, and eventually, she'll see that her "Data" about you is either inaccurate or out of date. But what she sees or admits is not relevant, really.
That's b/c you will have become a better stronger and happier LostMN.
Maybe your screen name will change to "FoundMN"...
Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.
(Starsky, can you give some examples?)
Maybe it means if she says something like "let's buy that new car" in which case
I'd support a statement along the lines of "I have financial plans of my own. IF we decide to stay married, I'll share them."
And be clear, "deciding to stay married" means by definition, NO AFFAIRS.
You may need to tell her that "thru an oversight" on your part, you didn't mention that. But to be clear, going forward,
you stay married (& faithful) OR you don't stay married. Either way, you'll be fine.
Say it and then leave the room/area.
I can't over stress the value of your remaining calm and in control of your emotions in front of her.
Fake it til you make it, if need be.
Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.
(Starsky, can you give some examples?)
Maybe it means if she says something like "let's buy that new car" in which case
I'd support a statement along the lines of "I have financial plans of my own. IF we decide to stay married, I'll share them."
And be clear, "deciding to stay married" means by definition, NO AFFAIRS.
You may need to tell her that "thru an oversight" on your part, you didn't mention that. But to be clear, going forward,
you stay married (& faithful) OR you don't stay married. Either way, you'll be fine.
Yes, BINGO -- that's a perfect example, 25. Or if she asks you point-blank why you seem to be pulling back emotionally, or spending more time on your own pursuits and passions. Etc.
Starsky
I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, [b]I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.
Wow, looking back at that is pretty embarrassing. I was a real, honest-to-goodness doormat to some of the most reprehensible behavior I have had to endure from a person.
[color:#3333FF]
Before I go any further, may I ask WHY this ^^ happened?
(Is it in your thread somewhere that I missed?)
Why did you believe you "perhaps" had "no right to ASK" her to stop cheating on you?
- If a betrayed spouse apologizes for discovering an affair, while not addressing the actual affair, I have to assume the betrayed spouse EITHER feels the cheater was at least partly justified in having the affair,
and or is so terrified of confrontation, that they cower from it.
-
For the record, I'm NOT a believer in snooping. But nor am I one to suggest apologizing for the discovery of an affair when it's discovered , regardless of the means by which it is revealed.
Why. Why. Why. I have been asking myself that continuously for the last day or so. As far as I can tell the answer is two fold.
First, I am a people pleaser. I want to take all the responsibility for the problems and appease people and make them feel better about the situation. So, I was willing to take all of my W's unhappiness upon myself and accept myself as the only root cause of it all. This is not realistic, nor a representation of what actually happened. I felt guilty that we got to this point in our relationship (because it was
clearly my fault in my mind) and so everything that she did was justified. I didn't
actually do anything extreme that could have justified such behavior.
Second, as you imply, I am
terrified of confrontation. The very suggestion that things are getting heated between people even in the same room as me is enough for me to flush beet red and get all flustered. Confronting someone about bad behavior was likely only something that has happened single-digit times in my life, so the fact that I was even having this conversation with my W was quite a leap for me. I got that far, then... couldn't think of what I should do next.
Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, LostNM?
I've read it twice in the last two weeks, cover to cover. It's well worth it for guys like us that are pleasers and fixers, and confrontation avoiders.
Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.
I also was wondering that. There's nothing she really wants to discuss with me right now other than the logistics of getting divorced.
Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, LostNM?
I've read it twice in the last two weeks, cover to cover. It's well worth it for guys like us that are pleasers and fixers, and confrontation avoiders.
I have not. I originally went to my IC hoping to get this kind of recommendation (as well as help implementing it) but he was too focused on getting my wife in so he could make her "think about what she's doing". Thanks for the recommendation, I will add it to my large and growing pile of self-help books I have read.
Well, that was a bust. I asked if she was still continuing her text messaging affair and she said yes, she still messages someone from time to time, but that it's mostly for conversation with a grown-up. I mentioned that the one message I had seen was sexual and she said yes she had been sending those, but that when I confronted her, she felt really bad about it and stopped.
I said, so you're still going to another man for your emotional needs? She said that she is mostly just corresponding "hey how's your day" "work stinks", and the like.
She says she was serious when she said she would not pursue other men while we are married. I asked her who the man was and she said some guy she knew from a website, an old account she doesn't check any more. I said I'd still like us to sleep in different beds tonight. She asked if this was for one night or permanent and I said I'd have to think about it.
I guess now I feel like a real jerk. For whatever reason, I believe her. My sense of righteous anger feels totally deflated and I feel like a jerk. I'm already totally doubting myself and while I realize that that could likely be me going into pleaser overdrive, but gaaahhhh! It's never simple and I just keep doing the wrong things!
Whoooo... Taking a breath here. I know I need some serious detachment if this is how I respond to absolutely everything. Don't panic. Don't panic.
OK, so. Calmer heads, where does WW end and WAW begin here? If she deserves attentive listening and I'm sending her to sleep in other rooms, might that be a step in the wrong direction?
I'm just going to have to pause on posting and just sleep or I'm going to stay up half the night spewing verbal diarrhea.
OK, by the light of a new day, I am much calmer, but not feeling any better about what happened. True enough, I am the wronged party here, and continuing contact with a person she has been sexual with (even if it was only ever text and only ever once or twice) cannot be acceptable. It's still an emotional affair.
But what can I do? I feel like drawing lines and insisting that she stop is unlikely to get her to change and it's much more likely to change the dynamic of what had been a very positive two weeks into a very negative one.
I guess now I feel like a real jerk. For whatever reason, I believe her. My sense of righteous anger feels totally deflated and I feel like a jerk. I'm already totally doubting myself and while I realize that that could likely be me going into pleaser overdrive, but gaaahhhh! It's never simple and I just keep doing the wrong things!
Or, perhaps she's lying. People in affairs do -- 100% of the time. Period.
You were advised to wait until you had something iron-clad, and THEN confront her. This is what happens when you:
a) don't have solid evidence, and jump the gun and react emotionally; and
b) ASK, and don't TELL.
Starsky
OK, so. Calmer heads, where does WW end and WAW begin here? If she deserves attentive listening and I'm sending her to sleep in other rooms, might that be a step in the wrong direction?
A wife who is still texting other men, after her husband has said he has a problem with it, is WAYWARD. You don't treat waywardness with attentive listening. (see Sandi's threads)
Starsky
But what can I do? I feel like drawing lines and insisting that she stop is unlikely to get her to change and it's much more likely to change the dynamic of what had been a very positive two weeks into a very negative one.
Your mind isn't thinking clearly at ALL. Consider:
1. This is your FEAR talking. You feel like not confronting her, because you're admittedly terrified by confrontation.
2. You don't do it to "get her to change." You do it to draw a healthy boundary around yourself. Whether or not she responds to that boundary is completely out of your control. Put more simply, you do it because "it's the right thing to do," not to get some reaction out of her.
3. Your recent interactions with her were SEEMINGLY positive, because they were free of confrontation. But the reality is that she was still texting with another man, with whom at MINIMUM she'd already been having an emotional affair with and more likely it is continuing and she is lying. But if "don't rock the boat" is what's most important to you, by all means go back to what you were doing before.
Starsky
Or, perhaps she's lying. People in affairs do -- 100% of the time. Period.
You were advised to wait until you had something iron-clad, and THEN confront her. This is what happens when you:
a) don't have solid evidence, and jump the gun and react emotionally; and
b) ASK, and don't TELL.
Starsky
I don't want to spy on her. I don't want to log into her phone or accounts. I don't want to check phone records any more. To me, that feels like controlling and pursuit, not detachment. So, without any of that, my only source of information is to ask her.
While I think there is good cause for healthy skepticism here, I don't think that treating everything she says as a lie is helpful either.
I guess the moral is if I wasn't prepared for all possible answers, I shouldn't have asked.
Thank you for your help Starsky, I really do appreciate it. I am trying to get my head in the right place.
I don't want to spy on her. I don't want to log into her phone or accounts. I don't want to check phone records any more. To me, that feels like controlling and pursuit, not detachment. So, without any of that, my only source of information is to ask her.
Lost,
With all due respect and compassion for what you're going thru (remember, I went thru it too!) -- if you continue to lead with your FEELINGS, you are leaving yourself open for a whole world of pain and disappointment.
I suggested some specific ways to get solid intel without daily "spying." You don't sound like you're ready, and that's fine. The problem you're going to have however is, if you ask her if she's cheating and she isn't, she's going to say "no." And if you ask her if she's cheating and she IS, she's going to say "no."
Not helpful.
Starsky
I guess the moral is if I wasn't prepared for all possible answers, I shouldn't have asked.
No, the moral is if you weren't prepared with solid evidence of continuing infidelity, you shouldn't have confronted her.
Hi Lost, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. But I can tell you that advice from Starsky - one of the best Vets around on the site - is well worth careful consideration.
From what I read, your W is wayward & wayward normally calls for a strong, alpha response. Please read Sandi's advice threads for LBHs to understand more if you haven't done so already.
Good luck my friend :-)
I guess the moral is if I wasn't prepared for all possible answers, I shouldn't have asked.
No, the moral is if you weren't prepared with solid evidence of continuing infidelity, you shouldn't have confronted her.
It seems like we are maybe talking past each other here. I will clarify a bit to see if we are talking about the same thing.
First, I had solid evidence of ongoing texting between her and OM. I have seen the phone records recently. I had no need to bring that up because she didn't deny that she was doing still doing it.
What she said (and what I did not have a prepared response for) was that it was no longer sexual. The only way for me to confirm or deny the content of the messages would be to read them on her phone. I think that would be a serious breach of character for me and that regardless whether my W stays or goes, I could not respect myself for doing that.
What I see now is that it doesn't matter whether it's still sexual, it's still an inappropriate relationship.
But even knowing that it is an inappropriate relationship I don't have any leverage to tell her stop. "Stop texting him... Or...?" Or what? You can't sleep in my bed? You cannot present us in public as being a couple? I won't be very nice to you any more?
I don't see any of these as being particularly motivating for her.
Thank you for continuing to challenge me Starsky. I do appreciate it, and this back and forth.
But even knowing that it is an inappropriate relationship I don't have any leverage to tell her stop. "Stop texting him... Or...?" Or what? You can't sleep in my bed? You cannot present us in public as being a couple? I won't be very nice to you any more?
"Or you can't remain married to ME anymore, because I will not stay in an open marriage."
IF that is, in fact, a hard boundary with you.
Starsky
Hi Lost, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. But I can tell you that advice from Starsky - one of the best Vets around on the site - is well worth careful consideration.
From what I read, your W is wayward & wayward normally calls for a strong, alpha response. Please read Sandi's advice threads for LBHs to understand more if you haven't done so already.
Good luck my friend :-)
Thanks for your comment, Toots. I am trying to take it all in here and to allow myself to be challenged on my behavior. I did read Sandi's thread and that's really what prompted me to take action and try and call my W on her behavior.
Starsky has been a great help already. I am trying to strike the balance between over-analyzing and being too quick to action.
I have posted this before, but perhaps you haven't seen it, MN. It's from an old poster here named Jayne, and it was just about the best explanation of what boundaries really are that I have ever seen. So I saved it in my personal archives:
Jayne, on “boundaries”:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your wayward wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, [i]outside your circle.
She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.
If however she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.
[/i]
I am trying to strike the balance between over-analyzing and being too quick to action.
MN, it's not about the
speed with which you act, but rather the
force. The speed can (and should) be "whatever pace you're comfortable with, so long as you can live with the consequences of your temporary inaction should you decide to move slowly."
Once you do act however, it should be done with unequivocal force (but civilly and respectfully) and without apology. After all, we are talking about one of your
core boundaries of personal integrity here -- not about which you prefer with your chicken: pasta or potatoes.
Don't confuse "pace" with "power."
Starsky
Lost -
Sandi & I have discussed how we, as women, view different approaches of how to treat a wayward wife, at first. She says I "use a softer" approach & that's a fair description.
I once almost had an A, about 9 years into the m. At the time, I did justify it. But I also felt wracked with guilt, sought out counseling before things went too far, and stopped myself.
So my approach is with that^^ experience in mind. I thnk back on how I felt and how it would have gone if my h had discovered the "EA" and "been a jerk."
My h was in training as an MD back then. As objectively as I can see my own past, which is admittedly biased, I was very neglected due to h's career change.
We had 2 small children, we both worked full time, my job was very stressful, (both of us were Army officers during the First Gulf War. I Joined b/c h owed the Army for med school)...
and when h was home which was darn rare, he was so exhausted that he'd fall asleep at the dinner table (literally) and was usually super irritable due to stress and sleep deprivation (not exactly appreciative of my sacrifices, to say the least).
This went on for years...AND with no light at the end of the tunnel.
It took all of that^^ for me to want to stray from my m. So imo, most women with children do not easily cheat on h's who treat them decently.
Having said all this, you might think I'd urge you to supplicate your wife now.
But I'm not.
Because when it comes to how a wayward wife views a h who seems weak, fearful and indecisive, I'm in alignment with Sandi and Starsky
and when the 3 of us agree on something, you ought to give it some thought.
BUT - THIS IS KEY
you have made much of not wanting to be a jerk and how you "treated her like sh1t in the past." It's great that you see this and wonderful that you care to reverse it, regardless of what she chooses to do about the marriage (b/c she's the mother of your offspring, & you're an honorable man, you should Not treat her like sh1t).
Maybe you see a lot of her recent behavior as Payback for the years during which you mistreated her. I get that. Really, I can see it.
But now we have to look at what will help you in saving, repairing & recreating your marriage - so you can have a healthy one.
*SO --- If you start off with the moral high ground on an issue,
(i.e. a wife texting OM in an inappropriate way, gives you the moral high ground)
AND THEN you blow it b/c you berate her or bully her or get physical in any way -
- You don't have to slug her to "get physical". It means if you physically intimidate her.
Throwing things (=tantrum) or getting in her face (intimidation tactic =bullying) -
THEN You lose the moral high ground.
Is that the reason you are "now feeling like a jerk"?
If it is, just own that so we know what you're talking about.
Otherwise, I don't see anything you need to regret EXCEPT not having a plan of action for what you discovered.
--Her contact with OM is wildly inappropriate for at least 2 reasons:
1) Her past with that OM (!)
and
2) b/c it bothers YOU.
So it's inappropriate b/c unless it is related to their working professional relationship (which they lack), then it's unnecessary and in this situation, disrespectful to you.
I don't know how you behaved during the exchange. Maybe you were a jerk. But the substance of the conversation was that you discovered wrong doing on your w's part; and
you basically requested she sleep elsewhere "tonight"...
That^^ my friend, is NOT a proportional response.
It might have been if you'd said "so I can think about what I'm going to do now"...
Moving on...as to "WHY??" you didn't say or do more...
Hey, you feel powerless. Your wife wants out of the marriage and you don't want to rock the boat. I can see that.
To carry the metaphor farther...Is it really helping you repair anything, to see HER rocking the boat - only to have you do nothing to right the ship?
You are fixing nothing by taking the path of least resistance. It's working against you.
And I'm Sorry but I don't buy the "people pleaser" scenario the way you are packaging it.
You stated that you are 'terrified" of confrontation to the point that you leave the room when OTHERS are in conflict.
That^^ is not "people pleasing", it's a crippling reaction to a normal life event
(b/c every single situation has conflict in it, if there are 2 or more people involved).
Are you the child of alcoholics? Where'd you get that response? Are you working on that?
As for your wife & you, I think the fear is coming from an insecure place deep within; not wanting to please others so much as keep them around.
There's a difference.
Wanting someone to need you so they don't leave, is not the same as loving them.
Keeping the peace at all costs, is not true peace. It's simply the lack of overt conflict. Make no mistake; there IS conflict in your marriage.
Hiding from it doesn't make it go away.
She wants out, & you seem to be wringing your hands about it. That must change.
I'd love to hear some GAL activities and 180s and maybe some short term goals (getting back to basic DBing)...AND finally
I say DO NOT "confront her!" - about anything,
IF you do Not have a plan for what action to take when you find something.
Make sense?
PS
What are the finances right now? Meaning, what leverage do you really have with her?
IF you are the breadwinner and paying her cell bill AND she's texting OMs,
that phone bill has to be paid by her from now on. Not by you.
That's just an idea I'm throwing out to give you an example of a consequence. Yes it sounds parental and that's tragic. (NOT attractive....)
But if she's acting like a child, maybe it's needed.
Because when it comes to how a wayward wife views a h who seems weak, fearful and indecisive, I'm in alignment with Sandi and Starsky [/b]
and when the 3 of us agree on something, you ought to give it some thought.
That made me smile.
Starsky
Thanks for that one again, it makes it more a little easier to understand what she means when there's a vivid case-in-point sitting in front of me.
Lost -
Maybe you see a lot of her recent behavior as Payback for the years during which you mistreated her. I get that. Really, I can see it.
This is maybe my biggest obstacle to being more assertive with my needs and boundaries. Early on in this process, I wanted to take all the responsibility for the problems on myself. Now I rationally know that blame is much closer to 50/50, but my old thinking still shows in my actions sometimes.
*SO --- If you start off with the moral high ground on an issue,
(i.e. a wife texting OM in an inappropriate way, gives you the moral high ground)
AND THEN you blow it b/c you berate her or bully her or get physical in any way -
- You don't have to slug her to "get physical". It means if you physically intimidate her.
Throwing things (=tantrum) or getting in her face (intimidation tactic =bullying) -
THEN You lose the moral high ground.
Is that the reason you are "now feeling like a jerk"?
If it is, just own that so we know what you're talking about.
It has never been a problem for me to not intimidate people. In fact, I usually tend to do the opposite and shrink back, even as I am making demands of people that they may not like. Also, my W is a black belt in karate, so at least knows how to throw a punch under pressure.
No, no intimidation here.
Otherwise, I don't see anything you need to regret EXCEPT not having a plan of action for what you discovered.
--Her contact with OM is wildly inappropriate for at least 2 reasons:
1) Her past with that OM (!)
and
2) b/c it bothers YOU.
So it's inappropriate b/c unless it is related to their working professional relationship (which they lack), then it's unnecessary and in this situation, disrespectful to you.
I don't know how you behaved during the exchange. Maybe you were a jerk. But the substance of the conversation was that you discovered wrong doing on your w's part; and
you basically requested she sleep elsewhere "tonight"...
That^^ my friend, is NOT a proportional response.
It might have been if you'd said "so I can think about what I'm going to do now"...
Yes, I'm slowly coming around to the fact that my response was rational, and not cruel, so I really have no reason to feel like I was a jerk. In the moment, though, when she insisted that the exchanges were no longer sexual (and I still do believe her, but it doesn't matter) I felt like suddenly I had no more reason to make demands like "Please sleep elsewhere until this relationship is definitively ended." I see that is
not the case now, but at that moment, that was my reality.
You stated that you are 'terrified" of confrontation to the point that you leave the room when OTHERS are in conflict.
That^^ is not "people pleasing", it's a crippling reaction to a normal life event
(b/c every single situation has conflict in it, if there are 2 or more people involved).
Are you the child of alcoholics? Where'd you get that response? Are you working on that?
No, not a child of alcoholics, there wasn't really even that much conflict in my house growing up. I was the middle child of 6, but I don't know how that could have led to such a conflict aversion.
My IC and I have discussed it, but I will bring up more as something specific to work on.
As for your wife & you, I think the fear is coming from an insecure place deep within; not wanting to please others so much as keep them around.
There's a difference.
Wanting someone to need you so they don't leave, is not the same as loving them.
This strikes a chord. I don't know for sure what it means or why, but I see this in a lot of my actions.
She wants out, & you seem to be wringing your hands about it. That must change.
I'd love to hear some GAL activities and 180s and maybe some short term goals (getting back to basic DBing)...AND finally
I say DO NOT "confront her!" - about anything,
IF you do Not have a plan for what action to take when you find something.
Make sense?
Thank you very much for the lengthy and considered response. I am still working through all the responses. For now, I know I need to stand by my stance that my W sleeps elsewhere until the A is definitively ended one way or another. If she truly does intend to honor my wish that she not pursue other men while we're still married then maybe this will be short-lived.
To the community: Giving this level of care and attention in the name of helping complete strangers through some of the toughest times in their lives is truly awe-inspiring. I am humbled and deeply grateful.
Well, W slept in the guest room again last night. I haven't made clear that this is intended to go on as long as she has not ended contact with OM, but I suspect she intends to make it permanent. Hard night, fitful sleep. Still doubting if I'm making the right choices. Maybe I'll hit the gym with a little more vigor this morning. I still haven't said I won't be going to her parents' this weekend. With the sleeping situation and with my need to GAL, increasingly it seems the right choice for me to stay.
Missing the trip will be unfortunate, it is sad that will have to be that way if you chose to go that route.
There will be many more choices you will have to make before this is all over, that you may not like but will need to do.
PS
What are the finances right now? Meaning, what leverage do you really have with her?
IF you are the breadwinner and paying her cell bill AND she's texting OMs,
that phone bill has to be paid by her from now on. Not by you.
That's just an idea I'm throwing out to give you an example of a consequence. Yes it sounds parental and that's tragic. (NOT attractive....)
But if she's acting like a child, maybe it's needed.
I intended to respond to this last night but forgot. I am not the sole (or even major) breadwinner. We are both engineers but she makes $90K+ to my $68K. So control of the purse strings is not going to be an option. We have a single checking account/credit card account/savings account anyway and I don't want to deal with splitting things up yet.
Missing the trip will be unfortunate, it is sad that will have to be that way if you chose to go that route.
There will be many more choices you will have to make before this is all over, that you may not like but will need to do.
Thanks Zephyr, I love to see the kids playing there and I have spoken with my MIL and FIL about our situation (and my W knows that I have spoken to them) and they are very supportive of me, but right now I think I need to not be there. I do have two things I want to go and do lined up, so hopefully those will be worthwhile.
Brief update: I spoke with my W about the contact with OM. I said, "You have told me you want to move forward with mutual respect. Continuing communication with this person you have been texting crosses that line. End your communication with this person and tell them you are ending it and we can proceed on a more even footing."
She said, "I will not contact that person any more and if they try to contact me, I will tell them that continuing communication between us is inappropriate and I will not be doing it any more."
That is a bit of a weight off my mind. After speaking about this, I decided that that was really the only thing holding me back from going with her and the kids to her parents' this weekend. So, now I'm with them instead of doing my other activities, but I'm OK with that for now.
I know this is only a first very small step and that it doesn't mean anything if my W decides she doesn't respect me enough any more, so I will have to be aware of it in the future. Next week I have at least one activity planned, and I will look into more. Now at least I feel like I can focus on GAL without "OM" hanging over my head.
Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, LostNM?
I've read it twice in the last two weeks, cover to cover. It's well worth it for guys like us that are pleasers and fixers, and confrontation avoiders.
PigPen, thank you very much for popping into my thread to add this comment. I have read through
No More Mr. Nice Guy and I am already intent on reading through it again. This book has a very spot-on description of many of my most frustrating patterns and behaviors. I intend to bring this to my IC this week. This is not going to be easy to break out of, but it is unquestionably worth doing.
Brief update: I spoke with my W about the contact with OM. I said, "You have told me you want to move forward with mutual respect. Continuing communication with this person you have been texting crosses that line. End your communication with this person and tell them you are ending it and we can proceed on a more even footing."
She said, "I will not contact that person any more and if they try to contact me, I will tell them that continuing communication between us is inappropriate and I will not be doing it any more."
MN, how do you intend to confirm this?
"Trust -- but verify." (Ronald Reagan)
Starsky
MN, how do you intend to confirm this?
"Trust -- but verify." (Ronald Reagan)
Starsky
I think it makes sense to check phone records once a week or so, but to schedule it so I don't obsess over it.
Basically, they could be communicating through other means and I have no way to check that (that I am willing to engage in) so I will be using that mental effort that was being used on fretting over this texting on looking out for me and my needs and for working on myself for my own sake.
OK. It just seemed "too easy" how readily she acquiesced to your boundary, plus I'm a born skeptic anyway, lol. If there's a trusted third party you could have monitor a couple of different intel channels, and then just let you know if there's anything inappropriate going on, that would be best. Because even once a week seems like it messes with your detachment, which you've got going really good right now.
Starsky
OK. It just seemed "too easy" how readily she acquiesced to your boundary, plus I'm a born skeptic anyway, lol. If there's a trusted third party you could have monitor a couple of different intel channels, and then just let you know if there's anything inappropriate going on, that would be best. Because even once a week seems like it messes with your detachment, which you've got going really good right now.
Starsky
In truth, I more got the impression that she wasn't really very invested in the texting back and forth, so it wasn't that much of a sacrifice to get rid of it. And from the records, they were never sending very many messages.
In truth My guess is, I more got the impression that she wasn't really very invested in the texting back and forth, so it wasn't that much of a sacrifice to get rid of it. And from the records, they were never sending very many messages.
There. Fixed it for you ^^^.
My question here is - doens't this come across as controlling and push the spouse awy further and further. Who wants to be with a controlling ahole?
See you always were controlling and now this proves it, you are showing your true colors here, would be exactly what she is saying.
My question here is - doens't this come across as controlling and push the spouse awy further and further. Who wants to be with a controlling ahole?
See you always were controlling and now this proves it, you are showing your true colors here, would be exactly what she is saying.
Heavy,
Where in this:
Brief update: I spoke with my W about the contact with OM. I said, "You have told me you want to move forward with mutual respect. Continuing communication with this person you have been texting crosses that line. End your communication with this person and tell them you are ending it and we can proceed on a more even footing."
do you see "controlling a-hole" ???
I see a strong man of integrity knowing what his core boundaries are, and being confident enough to be able to state them unequivocally to his wife.
Starsky
Now, if you're saying that SHE will say "you're a controlling a-hole!" then I probably agree with you (and found it interesting that she DIDN'T, as I stated -- rather, she gave in rather easily). The overwhelming majority of wayward spouses (and nearly 100% of wayward women) use this "controlling" deflection, and it's best to just ignore it. Rather, focus on DOING THE RIGHT THING in every situation, and let the wayward's objections roll off your back.
I too had a red flag pop up in my head ... like she gave in here to either get him to go on the trip so everything 'appears' normal .. or maybe the text thing is not hard to dodge and avoid as she has the communication she 'needs' elsewhere.
I do check myself on the skeptic front from time to time but this one seems like it went way to easy.
If I may - I have run into this too. be wary.
My ww agreed to NC, and then went further underground with her A. There NEEDS to be more than "you're right, I'll stop". That isn't enough. WW's lie (that's just what they do). It can not be that easy.
Be wary. (Though I am a skeptic too)
Just to add...my W called OM an hour a day for 2 weeks straight. I told her it made me uncomfortable and the calls stopped.......showing up on my phone bill. There are so many data-based calling apps, that it's so easy to go "underground". I'm not saying she is doing that....but be careful. But at the same time, the more you push the issue, the more you push her away.
Just to add...my W called OM an hour a day for 2 weeks straight. I told her it made me uncomfortable and the calls stopped.......showing up on my phone bill. There are so many data-based calling apps, that it's so easy to go "underground". I'm not saying she is doing that....but be careful. But at the same time, the more you push the issue, the more you push her away.
This about sums up where I am mentally right now. There are so many ways she could still be communicating with OM that I cannot afford to expend mental effort trying to catch her in a lie. Right now, my boundary has been set down and until other things in our R begin to change that my time and energy is better spent on detaching, GAL and making a better, more aware self. Also, getting my act together at work. The constant distraction of focusing on trying to fix things and change her mind has cost me some performance.
Just to add...my W called OM an hour a day for 2 weeks straight. I told her it made me uncomfortable and the calls stopped.......showing up on my phone bill. There are so many data-based calling apps, that it's so easy to go "underground". I'm not saying she is doing that....but be careful. But at the same time, the more you push the issue, the more you push her away.
This about sums up where I am mentally right now. There are so many ways she could still be communicating with OM that I cannot afford to expend mental effort trying to catch her in a lie. Right now, my boundary has been set down and until other things in our R begin to change that my time and energy is better spent on detaching, GAL and making a better, more aware self. Also, getting my act together at work. The constant distraction of focusing on trying to fix things and change her mind has cost me some performance.
I can't agree with this line of thinking more. You cannot control her actions. She is a grown woman and will make her own choices. And the more you try to control her, the more it makes her want to do those things. You've set your boundary to protect yourself - enforce it as you need to and let it alone. Any other energy or time spent worrying into her is wasted energy you could have been spending on you.
Well, I guess I've been off for the better part of a week here. So, here's where things are:
My W came to me earlier this week and said a few things. First, we discussed the kids and how I continue to think that she is not dealing well with her anger when it comes to them. It does not happen all the time (maybe once a week), but when it does, we can see it coming a mile away. She starts with getting annoyed at the beginning of the day or evening and by the end, she is shouting at the top of her lungs. Anyway, she feels like it's just something that needs to happen sometimes. I keep trying to emphasize that it's a bad response to a predictable set of events and that if we can catch it earlier and start unwinding that anger before it gets to that point, then she won't end up shouting at our children. We didn't reach any resolution, just talked about it.
Second, she said that now she feels like I'm spying on her. The fact that I brought up her continued text messaging so far after the fact led her to this conclusion. At first, I told her all the things I had not done (never logged in to anything as her, never poked around on her phone, never poked around on her computer) but then later told her that I had been checking the phone records. I told her that I will not be doing that any more. And I mean it. She said (again) that she will not be contacting that person any more. I told her I believe her (and I do).
Then finally, she said that we need to sit down and talk about mediation. I said fine and she said we would talk on Friday night. Friday came around and we briefly discussed the fact that she had been in contact with a local mediation firm and wanted to schedule a consultation. I said that I would go to such a consultation. Nothing scheduled yet, but I imagine there will be in the near future.
And that is where the W situation sits.
For me, GAL is still not quite happening. I did go out on Wednesday night to a "Makerspace" where people go to a workshop and build stuff. I plan to start a membership so I can go and do some of my woodworking projects there without worrying about how noisy I am being. The GAL value would be in getting to know people there, so I may start by helping with other people's projects. I plan to go out again this Wed. and get signed up. I also plan to go out this Friday to see an old friend and his band play. I have lots of friends I haven't seen in years because I moved about 55 miles away from where I used to live. This Thursday is happy hour with work friends, so it's looking to be a pretty busy week. Going out this much makes me feel guilty because it leaves my W taking care of the kids, but I guess she is just as free to go and do things for herself. I do give her a heads up that I will be gone, but I tend to hold back on the details for now.
Other things working on for me: I have read through No More Mr. Nice Guy and I am trying to work through some of the exercises. I told my IC about the book and my efforts and he suggested that I should bring that information to my next appointment and we could discuss how I think I am doing. I am actually more positive about my IC now than I was when I started posting, but his tendency to focus on my W and the M had to be pushed aside a couple of times so I could focus on me. It seemed like we were able to at least delve into my aversion to having feelings and needs and how strongly I react when I finally have to admit to someone that I need help in something. It's kind of scary to spend so many years thinking that you are well adjusted and capable only to realize that yes, you are capable but you've been spending a lot of time sabotaging yourself. I think I always knew that, but never really wanted to take a look directly at it.
She said (again) that she will not be contacting that person any more. I told her I believe her (and I do).
Yeah, because she's done so much to earn your trust. (((rolls eyes)))
Starsky
Second, she said that now she feels like I'm spying on her. The fact that I brought up her continued text messaging so far after the fact led her to this conclusion. At first, I told her all the things I had not done (never logged in to anything as her, never poked around on her phone, never poked around on her computer) but then later told her that I had been checking the phone records. I told her that I will not be doing that any more. And I mean it.
LostMN,
It is generally not a good idea to tip your hand to your enemy, regarding what your capabilities are, what your intentions are, what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do. It's like when we tell ISIS that "we're very serious about degrading you, but just so you know, we're NOT going to employ any ground troops!" or when one party tells the other "We're NOT going to shut down the government if we get into a deadlock over the budget, no matter what!"
You weaken your hand tremendously when you do this.
Now, some (maybe even you) will object to my referring to your wife as your "enemy," but right now -- in her current, wayward mindset and in the current legal status of your marriage -- she
is an enemy of your marriage, at a minimum.
You'd be better served to keep all options on the table. when she accused you of spying on her, you should have said "I don't know what you're talking about" and left it at that.
Starsky
She said (again) that she will not be contacting that person any more. I told her I believe her (and I do).
Yeah, because she's done so much to earn your trust. (((rolls eyes)))
Starsky
Hold on Starsky, hold on a minute. I'm confused. This isn't a wife who swears she wants to work on the marriage AND promises not to cheat....this is a wife who SAYS she wants out. She plans on a divorce and being free.
So my question is, even if she's lying and cheating right and left "and it's under his nose if only he'll look...!"
What difference does it make now? IF he looks and 1) finds she is lying OR 2) finds no evidence that she is lying/cheating, but reveals the looking
(So of course she gets to say he's a jerk and a liar.) But more important,
how did it help him? AND
What is there for him to do about it? He wants to stay married and she doesn't.
VERSUS his going about his life, ---GAL and yes, it's even more important now b/c it's one of the few things in this ordeal that you actually do control and you do control it a lot more than you seem to admit.
(Don't let inertia be your theme song...) and being the best dad he can be and adding some mystery to his life.
If there is a chance to turn this around BEFORE a real sep and or divorce
(and there's a chance after a divorce as well, b/c I've got 2 family members who literally divorced and remarried their former spouses years later so yes it happens)
but imo, the chances of his preventing this from leading to a divorce
are only increased by his behaving in a way that is new and different for him.
And TO ME
spying on her and insisting she not do this and that OR acting as if he'll do something that he's NOT going to do, just sounds weak.
Just my .02
25,
I should clarify. I did not advocate that MN confront his wife with any evidence of continued contact with her OM. And I wouldn't (for the reasons you state), unless she just blatantly lies to his face about it.
It was MN who was making the "unilateral disarmament" pronouncements to her about what he did and didn't do, and what he WOULDN'T do, in response to her "spying" accusation.
My preference would be that he maintain intel, checking it only maybe once a month or perhaps having a trusted third party keep it and notifying MN only if there is some imminent threat to his finances and just to help him make the decision of what he would do IF his wife said she wanted to reconcile. He was also stating to the forum that "I believe my wife," and I think that's a foolish position to take at this stage because she's not proven her trustworthiness. A better stance to take would be "She told me she's no longer contacting him; I don't believe her, but it really doesn't make a difference at this point -- I need to work on my own improvements and GAL."
No, my preference would have been that he simply said NOTHING other than the "I don't know what you're talking about," as I stated.
MN I hope that clarifies.
Starsky
Thank you for the clarification, Starsky. It does help me to understand a little bit more where you are coming from. I had not thought about the possibility that my W's actions could imperil family finances. I think in that instance, I would be inclined to do what I need to find the information I need. I do not see that as a problem yet, though.
Also, you are right. My continued focus on being eager to believe her is both not well supported by evidence and not very helpful to my detaching and GAL. So, just as you say, "it doesn't make a difference at this point -- I need to work on my own improvements and GAL." Thank you for continuing to give me feedback. It is genuinely appreciated.
I did have an interesting moment last night. I felt like I laid down and really relaxed as I went to sleep. I wasn't on edge, I wasn't fretting over what my W might be thinking at that moment, I just felt free of tension for a while. I've worn my mental rut around "What is she thinking?" just going in circles over and over and I have been spending a lot of time (over a period of months) just repeatedly thinking about the same things. I think that's starting to shift, but I still feel the pull of it during the day. Here's hoping I can achieve more of those moments of letting go.
If I intend to keep the support going, I suppose I should keep posting. It's been a week and a few things have happened:
1. I have joined up with a men's support group. I hope to receive some good feedback and challenges from the other members of this group. I joined based on the group's link to "No More Mr. Nice Guy" which I am still finding a valuable resource. I met with the group once already and discussed some of my situation and what I can do about myself.
2. My W and I have scheduled a first one-hour consultation with a local divorce mediation firm. I don't really know what to do with this other than read up on mediation and what I should be looking out for.
3. I am actively trying to watch out for my approval-seeking behaviors and take note of them. For now, the biggest one I have noticed is being a "know-it-all". I add things to conversations that are not relevant (but they show off the fact that I know tons of stuff). I give my opinion on things of which I have little knowledge. And most insidiously, I correct people. On piddly little stuff like grammar and language. I see these behaviors and for now, I am just being aware of them and trying to catch myself when I do it and take note.
4. I followed through on all the GAL activities I had planned for last week. I felt kind of bad being out of the house so much (and sometimes on relatively short notice) but I felt energized by meeting new people, seeing some old friends, and doing things that I have not done in a long time.
Who called for the divorce mediation meeting?
Who called for the divorce mediation meeting?
My W did.
And you just went along or did you not want to go?
And you just went along or did you not want to go?
I went along.
I've been working under the assumption that if my W insists on going through a divorce, a mediation-based outcome would be less damaging to our financial and emotional well-being than a strictly attorney-and-court process. Now that I examine that, I don't know that to be true, and in fact, I have read lamentably little on the whole subject.