I don't know what it is about me. I have clearly been wronged in this marriage. I am not saying that I couldn't have been a better husband, but I have not deserved this treatment.
I do not forsee anything getting better so now it comes to me pushing her out the door. I still feel that I want to give her my reasoning, so she understands my position.
Even though this is what I want now, I hope I will not regret this. This is really hard for me.
I am trying to predict how this interaction will go.
U turn
If you would like, this can be rehearsed here on the board. The good folks here will comment and advise.
V
Well - I went for it. I told her that I want her to leave.
She is digging her heals in as I suspected she would. She says she is not leaving - that I am free to go. She is going to stay here with the kids. That I have the money to get my own place.
There was a lot of talk about blame - I owned my part, and she owned hers, but does not think that her part warrants her leaving.
Solutions?
I leave (and I look like the one that walked away from my family)
We sell the house and both go our separate ways - maybe this is best (except financially). I am not worried that I will not have my time with the kids. (she is trying to hold that over me).
Hope she sees that it is fair to me for her to leave (this is unlikely to happen).
Her parting words with me indicated that she thinks we are in the best possible situation right now. No marital solution, in house separation, she continues with what she's doing, I am free to do what I want.
I stayed calm, disagreed with her - but this went nowhere.
She said that this has nothing to do with OM (though she said she loved him - grrrrg). She only realized things about herself because of him.
We do not have an open marriage, since we do not have a marriage.
She does still blame me for her affair - because I didn't trust her.
She still wants to act like a family - for the kids. She thinks this is best. Hates the fact that I cannot do this and says that I have pulled the kids away from her.
She really thinks we just grew apart and that is what she will tell the kids. (I told her that we didn't just grow apart and I didn't want to teach the kids that this is ok - she says it happens to people all the time)
Thinks I am weak for going to IC and that this is her (IC) fault that I am doing this.
She thinks that I am acting like a victim and making the kids believe that.
She says that I am just trying make this all my way (maybe that is true).
(I disagree with all of this) - I just told her to go live her life.
----
I think we are done talking for a while, but how do I explain to her that none of this has been fair for me or the kids, and these are the consequences to her actions? I don't know how to proceed with this - I am spinning - could use some advice.
There is nothing to explain. If she's willing to break her marital vows by inviting a predatory third party into her life, ending the partnership that god gave the two of you to cherish, and destroying a family...I don't think telling her "this isn't fair" is going to turn her around.
You mentioned a lot of what she said during the conversation. Starsky has a lot of good talking points about 'truth darts', I think it would've been a good idea to basically tell her that's what she was doing, and that she could twist things and point blame on you, but she was 100% accountable for her choices and they were destroying a family and nothing you wanted any part of.
But that window is closed. The only question that matters at this moment is what you are going to do. How as a man are you going to respond to this threat to your family. You can't save the M, but you can protect yourself and your children.
And you have to accept that it's unlikely that she'll ever feel she was wrong on this one. When the day comes you can stop having imaginary conversations trying to make her understand you'll know you are well on your way to detachment.
Be strong and take care of yourself U.
You mentioned a lot of what she said during the conversation. Starsky has a lot of good talking points about 'truth darts', I think it would've been a good idea to basically tell her that's what she was doing, and that she could twist things and point blame on you, but she was 100% accountable for her choices and they were destroying a family and nothing you wanted any part of.
Thank Zues - I in fact learned much here and did throw these truth darts at her. I did not sit quietly and listen to her (as I made it sound). I told her that this was happening because of her decisions. I did not make her have an affair - that was her decision. We ARE still married. That this is disrespectful to me and THE KIDS (she hated that one). and that this was not my idea to take apart our family this way.
This was the most that I have talked to her in a couple months, but none of this seemed to phase her.
I did learn (again) that there is no saving this marriage. We both know it, but she wants to continue with her path, she also does not want end the marriage. I don't care what she does, I just want her to do it away from here.
I don't know what my next move will be. I will likely push her some more.
Thanks zues
There is nothing to explain. If she's willing to break her marital vows by inviting a predatory third party into her life, ending the partnership that god gave the two of you to cherish, and destroying a family...I don't think telling her "this isn't fair" is going to turn her around.
And I am not looking to turn her around. I would just like for her to go. I would like for her to see that it is fair for her to leave.
Is it best? I believe so, she does not.
Great job U turn. You at least stood up for your beliefs and weren't afraid of her reaction. That's all you can do, and pretty impressive for month 4.
As for her, there is a reason she won't see eye to eye on what's fair. I don't know if you followed my last thread, but I had some interesting discussion about addiction and needs. I was saying when we have needs not being met, they really create powerful longings in us. When we find behavior that seems to meet those needs it is overpoweringly desirable. And since we believe ourselves to be good people, it's easy to rationalize our behavior. IE, I have emotional needs, you couldn't/wouldn't meet those needs, therefor it's your fault I had to go elsewhere, and whatever consequences occur from this new fulfilling relationship are really because you're defective. That's her stance. So to her, it is unfair that she should be inconvenienced because you failed her as an H.
Will that ever change? I could speculate that at some point when the new relationship breaks down and doesn't meet her needs she may bottom out, and at that point there is a chance that she finds healthier ways to do so, and at that point she may realize that it wasn't all your doing, that maybe she could've found a way to meet her needs without destroying her M. But that's a lot of speculation. The fact is that there are many alcoholics that die alcoholics, many lung cancer patients that smoke all the way to the grave, and so on. It's not a good idea to tether your happiness in life to someone else's ability to grow...in fact, that would be the opposite of growing yourself. Best to just have a moment of silence for your lost marriage and then keep moving on and letting go.
So in light of that- what can you do with a W that is in an open affair, insists that it's over forever, but refuses to move? I'd say put some time on the clock- maybe 6 months- and decide to detach, let her go, and leave the M behind. Do what you'd do if you were single with a roommate, and get yourself to a state of acceptance about your D. If in 6 months you have moved on and are truly at peace, in a positive spot for yourself, and she's still doing the same things...at that point you may decide to file yourself, move out and take your kids with you (at least half the time), and/or other necessary actions. But there is no hurry if you are detached. If you can't stomach the current situation that just means there is more detachment/growing/healing to do on your end (which there is), and you can do that in your home as easily as in another believe it or not.
And if you decide to give it some time, odds are that things will change before then. She might decide to move in with OM in two months, or they might break it off in three, or she might file on her own and try to evict you by falsifying abuse and filing charges, who the heck knows...but I don't think you'll ever regret looking back and knowing that you didn't make lifelong decisions for your family out of pain and reaction. I know 6 months of this sounds impossible, but it's not a lifetime, and there are things more important than your own immediate discomfort. As I said, one of them is getting to a point that it's not so disturbing because you have transcended the situation by working through the loss and dealing with the emotions that come from it.
So keep posting, keep reading, keep GAL, and start rebuilding the life you'd rebuild if she died, only right there in the same residence.
Good luck U!
Stay In the marital bedroom, do not leave your home. At minimum she should move out of the bedroom somewhere else. Stake your claim live in your home. Move her things from the MB slowly and gradually. Claim your space. If there is a second bathroom put her cosmetics etc there.
She will leave as long as you keep your boundary on no open R, and that you want her gone.
W is a WW. It is truly sad but necessary, record your interactions be firm and unemotional.
We are here for you. All my strength to you across the miles.
V
Thanks again Zues!
I wish I learned this much - realized where I was at - and acted with dignity in a short 4 months. Look at my time again
. In the first four months - maybe even 6 I was a COMPLETE wreck. Then inaction became my path, always hoping that this was temporary and she will realize the mistake she made.
I know now, 16 months or so into this, that this will not be repaired, she has no intention to change and has said so. What you have written about the blame all going on to me and not wanting to be inconvenienced by this is really how she's acting. So twisted, but I guess it is her perception - so that is her reality. "just walk away and file for divorce u-turn and it will all be fine"
With W being at least 12 months into this affair, being married and not caring about her husband or family, and OM being married and seemingly not caring about his W or family, neither wanting to end their marriage, but continue with their wayward friends with benefit ways. I don't see recovering from this. (of course I am not talking about my recovery - I think I will just "feel a whole lot better when she's gone".
And at this stage - I don't know what another 6 months will do. Keeping things as is would just make things perfect for W - I don't want to make things perfect and simple for her. I am not trying to punish her, but she should know what the consequences are.
I don't know how this will all unfold, but I do know that I have a strong relationship with my kids, I know I am honorable man and have a lot going for me. I will be ok.
Thanks for your support and all you write in yours and all the other threads.
Thank you V.
I have never left and will not leave MBR. She sleeps in the basement family room and has for a couple months. This will become more uncomfortable for her now that school is going to be over and D15 will have friends spending the night (they sleep there and I will not deny D15 this). W will have to find another spot I guess.
She gets ready in a bathroom that I don't use (but this is not a change), she does keep her clothes in the MBR yet. This will have to change. (she will likely dig her heals in on this too) I will have to move them (but our house is small and I don't know where they would go).
for now she is refusing to leave - says I cannot force her out. She will not file for divorce - says I will have to.
She knows that I will not be in an open R. She claims that we do not have a marriage, so it doesn't apply. I disagreed (duh)
She is very stubborn and has always been (has to be right/has to win). she claims not to be this way though. I do not see her changing her mind about leaving. I am thinking that we will have to sell the house (this is not what I want). This will be a long road (many repairs should happen).
--------
weird twist tonight. I heard W on the phone with her boss tonight. he is inviting US to his cottage. W came into my office to tell me. I just stared at her in disbelief. She hasn't asked me if I will go, I think she will (she would likely want to still seem like a normal family to her peers).
The gall of this - 6 days ago she wished I would have killed myself. She says we do not have a marriage, we are dissolving our family, but I am ok to pretend with in front of other people for her image. I will not do this. I will say no to this. and this goes beyond the - not while OM is in the picture. There is so much more to this now.
Thank you so much for your support!!
You're right U, sometimes I lose track of the timelines involved. I love what V is saying...just kind of edging her out little by little.
Have you consulted an attorney? Is selling the house really the only solution? You can't file a D based on the affair and request the house in the settlement?
It's funny, in my case I moved out almost immediately at my WAS's request. I let her bully me out as those on the forums scream not to let happen. And in some ways it has enabled her to do whatever she has done. But you know what? I am not complaining. I've had my own space, my own life. My kids know damn well I didn't abandon them as I've been closer to them than ever, and am doing everything possible to get more time with them. At the end of the day it might not have been as 'strategic' from a saving my M point of view, but trying to predict what would've made my WW turn around is futile. Oh, my DB coach didn't have a problem with it either when I told her what was going on, so I don't have many regrets.
Point is that I wouldn't want your life to be stuck because of a DB rule. Get a lawyer, get a DB coach, and don't rule out options. Since you know she's cooked, don't let her dictate your life. Maybe moving out and getting your own place and filing would be best for you. Who cares if she "wins". She's already screwed up your life enough, why let a childish game further interfere with what could be a great chance to start over. I mean, selling the house just to force her out still requires you to move out yourself...almost seems silly.
Anyway, not saying you go that route, V and the DB forums are pretty clear on this point. I just want you to feel 'unstuck'.
Take care U!
I have not seen an attorney yet but that will be a next step. I do not believe that the affair will have a bearing on a settlement, but I will see. (I again have stupidly thought we could work together to come to a solution - ha). Finances are all separated now, business is not yet.
I don't really know if I am DBing any more - I mean, I am still actively improving myself, but really do not see busting this situation and divorce. The rules have just become a way of life now - I do not think much about the rules - they are basically who I am now.
I know the house seems like a game piece. I want her to leave the house and I would stay kids would be 50-50 between us. She wants to stay in the house and doesn't care what I do (stay/go) she says it is the kids house and she will stay with the kids. Though in another breath she says the kids will be 50/50.
So an option is that we will sell and all move. crazy and I don't have the numbers worked out about if it makes financial sense.
I know you have been pushing for DB coaching to others around here. I never did this either - Do you think there is a point to this any more? I feel like we are at a point of dissolving everything - I am accepting this, what do you think a DB coach could help me with?
I really think that she doesn't care that she stays here with the kids. I think it still comes down to her image and the story she intends on telling everyone. and maybe this is a silly game we are playing too.
I do care that the kids are taken care of in both houses (and I have faith that I can create a new home for me and the kids if necessary). I am very resourceful.
No advice U-turn, just a nod to your Tom Petty reference. I've listened to that song many times in the last year. It's part of my "Good Riddance" playlist.
Ah - sunny - caught that one
That song goes through my head a lot. Thanks for reading and commenting!!
Hey U, just wanted to get back to you on the value of a DB coach. To me it's not just someone to help strategize on how to save your M. I got 6 more sessions after I had accepted that wasn't in the cards. But there are so many things she helps me with.
When I was harboring resentment towards my sister for her role in my D, my DB coach helped me write it out on paper so I could process those emotions. I no longer have that negativity in my heart.
My mediation is scheduled for 7/2. My DB coach suggested I email my STBX something specifically about how the kids have benefited from both of us, and how nice it is that our approaches compliment each other so well for the kids best interest. There was a LOT of nuance and strategy to the email, but the point of it is to make a point of reinstating good will, a team spirit, and reinforce our common goals. It was very subtle, with no expectation of a response, but it was meant to put her at ease so she didn't think I was approaching this meeting with a confrontational attitude. Again, no way I can explain the brilliance of how she structured it (using only my feelings I'd given her) and even the timing of when to send it...but it was something I'd have NEVER done on my own. But if it helps our children, and increases the likelihood that we'll settle amicably, and improves how we work together as co-parents...I'm ALL IN.
She's also helped me uncover some of my base needs that were being neglected that were triggers for me when I was using porn. This has helped me go from abstaining to overcoming. Not calling the game yet but feeling good.
I could go on.
Point is there is much more to a DB coach than saving a M. I think it captures the spirit of DB by maximizing your personal growth, demonstrating those changes in your other interpersonal relationships, and then navigating through the craziness of a WAS to deescalate the situation for the best interest of the family. Not saying it can't be done on your own, but mine has been a true Godsend.
Oh, and I get 10% from all sign up fees from posters I solicited...JK
U-turn, I've always read your thread, I just never had any idea what to say. When my H was living at home and the kids didn't know, I called it limbo. But I knew H wanted out. You are living in a whole different level of limbo--she won't leave!!
The only thing I'll say is something I posted on my thread a while back. My dear friend who is a priest asked me how long I was going to live S but not D, knowing I can't truly move on without that legal status. He said, life is short. And he wasn't pushing me to do anything I wasn't ready to do, wasn't telling me to give up on my M, but pointing out that sometimes we need to let go of things to get to something better. Maybe it's time for you to force the issue with your W, u-turn. So you can have something better.
Wow - what a pickle
I too would stand my ground, not leave the house and try to make it as uncomfortable as possible for her to remain there. I would not leave the marital bedroom either.
I would continue to DB, ignore the situation as much as possible. She is living in the basement - how comfortable can that be? Can you make it more uncomfortable for her? I would put all of her clothes down there, make up, everything.
I would not participate in any family events with her. She is wayward. You are not in a happy family relationship so don't play that game with he.
You are lucky that your kids are older, I think they will be hande it better.
Continue to "play the game" who knows what can happen in 2-3 months. I would consult with a L to know your legal rights. Can you buy her out of her equity? Does she work and contribute to the family income? Are both of your names on the deed? Can you make her pay rent, utilities, etc...
Hang tight.
U-turn
So from what I have read about your sitch ... your wife really does not want D, but does not want to stop the A either ... cake eat much?
If she refuses to leave, seems hell bent on fooling everyone .. family friends etc into thinking she is still M, and all is good .. then appearances seem to matter more to her than doing what is right .. or actually pursuing the R with OM ... seems they feel that their little FWB aggreement works out for everyone ... FantasyLand ... he is not leaving for her, and she is not leaving for him.
At this point I think you have done all you can ... why not start the D papers? Not that you have to actually go through with it .. but at this point what do you have to lose? You are not happy, she will not leave, most likely will not give the house over to you.
But think of it this way ... if she is not D, that will change the dynamics of the A, its no longer a FWB A between 2 married people... its a .. well now this blew up and I am a divorcee and the OW to a married man.
Reading Sandis stuff ... she has stated a few times the WW does not wake up till she is faced with losing things that are important to her .. your W is cake eating and has had her way from what I see. Losing the house, splitting up the family is the result of all this that may happen regardless ... feels like you two are playing chicken to see who flinches
U
I do believe this is a slow and steady sitch. I also know that you currently have the resources to achieve that which you need.
Do I think you are DBing, yes absolutely you are. For yourself and your children, you are the stable parent here. By stopping the game of pretend you are completely DB. The sunlight of truth causes the night crawlers to wince with light exposure. They can not bear it.
V
Thanks zeus, sunny, heavy, cali,V. Your input, advice, support is like gold in my pocket. I have stayed away from for a week again because it helps me to not obsess over this, and to not be selfish. I am not a newcomer, and don't want to take the real newcomer's space - and I should be doing better, and should be on a path that I am happy with - but I don't know if I am.
I feel like I am just throwing my hands up and giving up, but I do not see any other path at this time. (I know that sounds like boo hoo - poor me, but that is where I am at).
Zues - as far as a DB coach goes, I know there would be value to this, and I can use all the help I can get to not screw up the parenting issues that are going to happen. Money is going to get quite tight shortly (lame excuse), but I have a lot on my plate right now. May have to hold off on your 10%
W told me she wants to find a family counselor and start working with him/her before we tell the kids. I agreed to this and asked her if she had any ideas on that. She said no. She didn't get back to me, so I sent her four options that I found. She sent back a one word answer picking one.
sunny - I feel that I cannot move on - will not move on without the legal status of ending our marriage. I will not live the life she chose (just being "un-married"). I will not lower myself to that. It is not the road that I want to travel. I do want something better.
It's the first day of summer break today and I feel myself reeling just like I did all of last summer. (every line I write here today has made me well up - I don't want to feel this way any more).
Heavy - I have not left the MBR - not once. She now just finds another place in the house to sleep (now that d15 has friends over at night - very awkward and uncomfortable (she complains of her back hurting a lot (oh well)) I do not intend to leave the house, but I don't know if this is just a game. I do nothing for her and she does nothing for me - great life, right?
I do not envy anyone with younger kids that is going through this. It has to be so much harder. My kids are old enough to see what's going on and question it - they just don't and I don't know why.
There are no family events going on any more (only dinner every now and then). We will likely start doing separate things with the kids. I get to spend a lot of time with them now that it is summer break.
By regular salary, she makes more than I do right now, both of our names are on the house, so there is not much that I can do financially to push it.
I currently have all of my income going into a separate account and transfer money into the common account when the bills come in (I will pay for 50% of the bills). Now it's becoming complicated, because I am spending a lot of my money on the house (in preparation of selling it) I have to work this out.
Cali - You've summed this up very well. I believe she is going to live this lifestyle whether or not she is married. There is not much I can do about that - so ending my involvement in it would be my step. I don't believe she will ever file for divorce that will have to be my move.
Vanilla - Thank you always for your wisdom - I would like to know what you meant by "I also know that you currently have the resources to achieve that which you need". I KNOW I have the resources to be a good person and good parent - that is all I really need in my life right now.
Every move I make right now seems to anger W which sort of makes me feel alright. Angry about me controlling my money, about time I spend with kids without her, about making plans without her, about me pushing for an end.
Plans for now: continue IC
start preparing house for sale (big one - house needs a roof - can't sell a house with a bad roof).
arrange family counselor
end this madness
work on my business (try to rebuild some burnt bridges)
Get out on my bike
Fish, shoot, and weld with S17 (sounds like great manly stuff)
find something great to do with d15 (that doesn't involve buying her happiness (W is good at that))
Try to make a re-connection with S21
U
What do I mean?
It's this:
You are not hiding from the pain of your sitch, you are walking into it not away from it.
You have taken responsibility for yourself and your children.
That which is within you, the knowledge you have gained and the respect for the wisdom of others has opened your higher power to you.
Because you are no longer denying or trying to excuse or control WW then you have taken to yourself the tools you need to succeed as a person and father.
You have started your journey to detachment because that is a key tool you need.
I read the change and hear that in your online voice.
It has begun to shift.
V
Hi u-turn...I just wanted to stop by and say I was thinking about you...You are doing an outstanding job under extraordinary circumstances. Chin high Mr! You have a lot to be proud of....for now JB xxxx
Thanks Vanilla - it feels good to hear you say that, but I still feel wobbly walking in that direction. I know it is going to be ok, but still not what I have wanted. But it is the only way I think I can find solace. This R and M is non-existent and unrecognizable at this point anyway.
Thanks for the comforting and building words V - you truly are a great person. I wish I had the wisdom to help others as you have helped me. I read your story and feel so bad that I don't know what to say to you. You are so strong!!!!
Thank you Jelly - I hope you are feeling better. I am a little fearful of telling the kids about what's coming - but we will all persevere.
I spent the day doing some small maintenance projects at home - alone time (not really good). Took inventory around the house of things that need to be done for sale (yikes).
Have appointment set with lawyer for next week. I don't have anyone to get recommendations from, so I just kind of picked one to meet and get some info (it's another starting point though). W has not come through with the family therapist yet (no surprise)
U-turn,
Two things: you WILL be fine. The first person that found about BD was my friend/priest/former boss. We sat down to lunch and he looked me in the eye and told me that no matter what happens, I'd be OK. First time I posted here, Georgiabelle told me the same thing. And it's true. I'm fine. You will be, too.
Second, I lived the first seven months after BD with H living in our house, pretending to be the happy family, no one including our kids knowing. They just thought he went to Home Depot a lot......anyway, I would have cut off my right arm not to have to tell the kids. But H insisted, and we did. And it was really hard. But they are OK, too.
Seeing a L is a good step, U-turn. Let us know how it goes.
You are doing really well, my virtual hat is off to you!
Thanks Sunny & Heavy,
I had a good conversation with a friend/client today about me. After new work stuff, I thanked him for not losing my number (I have burnt a lot of bridges and including his). He wondered what the hell happened to me and I told him a little (not about affair, but about my ending marriage) he didn't ask why, but had some great insightful words for me. Has me thinking about going to his church - not so much for spiritual reasons, but maybe more for community and support reasons. I am considering it. He also says I will be ok too. I hear it and have to start believing it.
I feel good about my work again - I can re-build these bridges.
My meeting with lawyer has been postponed until later this week. I am setting one up with another one too (a past client of mine - he is probably more aggressive than what I would like though, but maybe that is what I need)
No appointment with family therapist yet (maybe I should take this on myself too - she said she would though).
W is trying to get me to play into the happy family yet/again. I have been declining invitations from her (this is a bit painful when it involves the kids). I have not refused to have dinner at home with her and the kids - considering that I make it for the kids and myself(though she has refused at times). She is also ramping up venting about work to me - it seems like she is just looking for a friend with an ear - I don't want to be that friend right now. This all just seems so unnatural to me - I don't like to act this way.
I guess this is what everyone calls the gift of time, but I am going to push it along. My anger with her does not seem to be going away.
Since there really is no dialog between W & I about anything right now aside from some kid things, I feel like I need to write what my intentions are and perhaps some things that we need to work out to move forward.
I have written this but have not sent it. I think it addresses some of the immediate concerns that I have.
If anyone is around today, I would love some input.
I just would like to move this along.
Thanks
W,
We haven't spoken in a while and you said that you felt you couldn't ask me questions. Go ahead and ask - I will answer.
But in the mean time, we need to figure out what bills need to be paid. I am not saying that I will not pay my portion.
-I will transfer money into the common account that will pay for my portion of the house, kids, food, and my direct bills. I will need to see these bills, so I know how much to transfer (so this will not cover other expenses - your entertainment, dates, hourly hotels, birth control pills..... etc.). You may deny that I have contributed to these things, but since you pay for them from our common account I have contributed to your lifestyle. I am through with this.
-We will need to share information about money that is spent on common things (house, kids, food, cars, etc) so we can balance this.
-You do not need to buy anything solely for me, I will take care of these things.
-I will continue to be cordial as I have been during this process, but I do not think it is a good idea to go out together as a family. Perhaps we can schedule times with the kids.
-We need to talk about things that need to get done to the house before we sell it. I do not want every item to fall on me, so I would ask for a fair amount of work from you too.
Believe me when I say that this is not what I wanted our lives to look like and this is not easy for me.
u-turn
So I'm kind of bumping this to get an opinion on sending this ^^^^ to W.
but also,
S21 is having some significant financial and other troubles. He moved out last year, quit school, is kind of wandering, very attached to girlfriend of (10 mo.) lives with her and her family, but has a good summer job now. W is hellbent on trying to get him to move back home right now. Though I want to help S21 in any way I can, I just feel like this is W's way of complicating everything even further and keep me from proceeding with my steps (and yes this does make me feel like I am selfishly thinking about myself). But I feel like the way W & I are living right now is also not a healthy place for him to come back to.
She is also not taking any responsibility in S21's decision to move out. I feel we were a major part of it and W & my issues impacted him more than she will admit.
That's between them. If you have to, let S know that you love and support him and you're their if he needs you. Let him know you are proud of him and believe in him and he has the right to make the choices for HIS life.
Not your circus.
Good luck.
Talk to an attorney. Don't agree to a single thing until you've spoken to an attorney. If the attorney doesn't listen to *all* your information or doesn't look at your financial spreadsheet (bring a spreadsheet with incomes, expenses, assets and debts), get another attorney.
Google state-specific laws for your state, that can start you off with some idea of what to expect.
But talk to an attorney. Don't put it off, and don't agree to anything until you've done it. I can not stress this enough, as I have seen guy after guy after guy get hosed in their divorces because they wanted to be fair and nice and generous, but did not realize the consequences down the road of what they were agreeing to.
Thanks Bravo,
S21 ended up coming over unannounced on Wednesday after my IC. I accommodated him and his gf for dinner (along with d15 and two friends, and S17). It was nice and fun - but W actually ate separately from all of us and s17 went to eat with her - feeling sorry for her. S21 asked to borrow money for rent (apartment that he's still paying for at school which he dropped out of). After a long talk with him (with W), I said I would help him. W wants him to move back home and S21 asked if he and his gf can move in because their current situation is not healthy. Privately I told S21 that the home that W wants him to come home to is not what he thinks it is - I did let him know that his mom and I haven't really spoken in months. S21 knows it is bad - he is still worried about me and my health. I assured him that I am fine and we will all be fine, but he may not want to rush into coming back home right now.
I really don't want him worrying about me. that is not his responsibility.
I told W that we need to figure out our path before we decide what to do about s21 moving back.
She agreed, but no conversation has happened (and no family counseling either).
Thank you Painter - I had a short meeting with an attorney to get some information. He is leaving for a week, but we have a couple hours blocked out early the following week to review everything. It is a scary step, but liberating as well. I just want everything to be fair and as good as possible for the kids. I also don't want to be an a-hole, but that will probably be the perception.
W & I cannot come together to even discuss anything at this point. We each leave the room when the other enters. W spewed at me about this, but she is also doing the same thing.
I wish the L was around and I could proceed quicker - I do have some clarity now (as I have written on zues' thread)
Thanks for everyone's support
I took a trip to see my parents yesterday - out of the blue, just went and had a good talk. This is not normal for me, but it was nice. I haven't seen them in a while.
It was not may intention to do so, but with the right questions from my mom, I told them about the troubles we are having. My mom was not surprised one bit - not at all. She knew all along, even last year - how about how things have been for me. We did not speak of the why, but she made some very spot-on assumptions. It is also funny that she pointed out many things about how my marriage and W has been (some things that stung a little) nothing too cruel, but maybe things that I never saw before.
My dad was oblivious and shocked and angry. I had to calm him a little.
I regret opening up to them a little, but it did make me feel like I had family again. They offered their support of anything I need. That felt nice.
They spoke about my brother who went through a eerily similar situation a couple years ago and is now re-fighting with his xw about finances and custody with a new lawyer. (He can barely afford to live while his xw is remarried to her AP built a new giant house and is living the life - but yet she is demanding more money from him (that is the story that I understand anyway))
I think at some point I will talk with him too. I don't know if I am ready for that though. I have never really been very open with him. Funny thing is my W was the talker when we were with my family too.
------
I have declined more invitations to do things with W and the kids. I see the kids all week long and I don't feel like I am missing out on them (I really miss family time though)(I just feel that it is not right at this time). This makes me really angry.
-------
How about this - I keep getting a message that OMW is a "person I should know" on facebook. I believe we are in close circles with some of our common friends (and some of my former clients). This is going to be a constant reminder for me. I still feel really bad for her (this is something that I think about a lot - something that torments me - (I don't believe she knows about any of this)). I looked at her profile and saw pictures of her and her H celebrating their anniversary with their kids.
U turn, I saw had the same thing post up a couple of times over the last few months...the guy who I have suspected my wife is too deep with, his wife pops up on my ribbon as a should know.
Just another reminder of an inappropriate involvement.
U
OMW and her R with her WH is her business, block the FB requests if you want to and if it makes life easier. I am minded about rzrbacks sitch and his WW who had a similar R with a WH and had a very hard time detaching. His wife had the most miserable time post A.
U, this A isn't going anywhere when OM is posting happy family pictures, at this stage of an A, it should be all together against the world. Clearly WW wants to play happy families too.
Your family can be very important in times like this, mums have a way of knowing too. They can ease the burden so the connection is loving and strong.
Can we look at the invitations to be with your children just a little? U some of these events may be important to your children so you may want to temper your view a little on this. Warm neighbour remember? Your children are older so the way you handle this can be very creative. Kids like your younger S and D will be relatively independent. especially if doing so is making you angry!
So what types of events are you choosing to veto?
U I will examine the post you made on Zues thread. be aware whilst anger can project you forwards it may not be the best place to D from. More in sorrow than in anger......
Peace
V
Thanks V, I am a facebook novice - I hardly ever go on it, but this came across my e-mail too - I don't think she is sending me a request, but it was just interesting that we are only a couple of degrees off of each other's lives. W unfriended me a couple months ago, so I don't see her stuff. I do have a feeling the A will go nowhere, but their friends with benefits arrangement may. I cannot allow myself to be involved with that. (W & OM both are trying to play happy family - and OMW is in the dark). I have spoken to my IC about the burden that I feel that I am carrying about OMW - she just tells me that I have enough to concern myself about - let that go for now.
----
I didn't expect that kind of support from my mom - and a hug from her too - holy-moly. I also didn't expect that I would ever want that either.
----
As far as invitations go, it is not like we are doing anything as a family these days. No day trips, no beach, no hikes. The kids are mostly doing their own things with their friends, S17 works a lot. I normally make dinner for myself and the kids and if W chooses to join us, she can. What I have been declining is going out to eat with them. This used to be a fun thing we did, but I have been declining. W takes the kids then. I think this may be petty, but it is the only family fun thing we would be doing right now - and I don't know what to do about it - I don't want to lose ground.
So - U-turn thinks by going out to dinner with his W and kids, that he is going to give the impression to W that everything is alright/on the mend again - maybe. But maybe I am taking the detachment thing too far. I am angry at myself for having to act this way.
Now that school is over, I am working at home with my other business and get to spend a lot of time with the kids - and am very flexible with my time so I can do things with them when they are available and want to.
I don't really think I have the warm neighbor thing down. I do not speak to her in an angry way, I just don't speak to her. I do find myself leaving the room when she enters. We do not exchange texts or e-mails. The only thing we have talked more than a couple sentences about was S21. If communication ever was our issue, it is at an all-time low point right now.
When I was passing through the house last night, I saw my wife face down on the couch crying. I didn't what to do about this (ask what's wrong?) Right away my assumption was that - she must feel really bad about what has happened to our family. But I really don't know what she would be thinking or crying about, and may not like the answer she would give me.
So I ignored and went about my business - as I have been doing for a couple months.
This morning her only words to me was that she was giving the family counselor one more try (FC has not returned calls). This was with the intention of figuring a way to tell the kids and co-parent.
I am angry about what life has become, I am angry at myself for not having some kind of solution, I am angry at W, but I do think this anger is opening my eyes.
In the back of my mind, I have been worried that I will not be able to turn myself around if something changed in my situation. But I know there is something still in me that cares for W (when I saw her crying last night).
Thanks for stopping in
U
A couple of observations if I may?
It is clear in your writing that you still want this M and to repair. WW is unhappy and crying, let her do that, let her work her sitch. It could be the neighbours cat died or she saw a sad movie. Let that be.
The meals out, I would not veto all of them for the sake of your kids. Pick your restaurant, something light breezy and fun, where you can get up to collect salad or refill drinks. You can choose if you like and ask W to join you at the restaurant, oh and yes you are doing this for your kids! You can be clear on that.
Smart and casual so you look amazing! That is happening? Becoming the man only a fool would leave, with aftershave, haircut and a big smile.
If you are not strong enough then just say 'next time'. Plan to travel in your own car to meet at the restaurant and leave slightly early if needs be. No alcohol and relax, oh and did I say smile? Play a heart warming tune before you go in. Sit between the kids, oh and did I say smile? I did? Oh I thought I forgot to say smile.
So how would you be with a friendly neighbour?
Your leg has just been run over, your tv went on the blink, the washing machine needs repair, there is a leak in the loo and your car won't start. Friendly neighbour says 'hi, how are you?'
What do you say?
Your neighbour opposite had his cat run over and it's at the vets.
What do you say?
The guy in the bar you swap baseball stories with just won a holiday in a competition.
What do you say?
Your coworkers daughter is appearing as a guest on a talent show on TV.
What do you say?
How do you say it? Do you look at them and smile as you say it?
One trick U, my IC advised me if it's hard to look WW in the eyes or gaze at her face (replace WH for me) then either stare between their eyebrows or defocus on their face by looking at a spot on the wall behind them in the middle of their back. Speak from the centre of your chest, oh and smile it gives warm to the voice. If WW is sitting sit, if standing stand. Say what you need to say wait 5 secs if you get no answer move on smiling. Be ready to move on quickly. If they say I am well then answer that's good to know. If you get a whine, validate (Wonkas cheat sheet) then move on.if you get a rant STFU and walk away.
My interactions with H eased off greatly when I set myself some behavioural targets. I was dealing with aggression not emotional blackmail (crying). I will find that for you from one of my early threads. You can ignore it if it's not useful.
Smile
V
Thanks again V
It is clear in your writing that you still want this M and to repair.
I do believe that I would want to make a go of it if W would drop the OM 100% and want back into the M. I do not want to set up a 3rd-wheel friendship, with me constantly looking at what I lost. She would just love to have me as a friend and is unaffected by seeing what I am giving up if I were to allow that.
Just last night, she came home in a different mood, trying to make "conversation", well at least wanted to tell me about her day, maybe she wanted to hear about my day. She went on for 10 minutes about her work - I listened, hmmmmed, aha-d, asked a question, but inside felt annoyed that we are back here - without addressing anything.
The meals out, I would not veto all of them for the sake of your kids. Pick your restaurant, something light breezy and fun, where you can get up to collect salad or refill drinks. You can choose if you like and ask W to join you at the restaurant, oh and yes you are doing this for your kids! You can be clear on that.
Smart and casual so you look amazing! That is happening? Becoming the man only a fool would leave, with aftershave, haircut and a big smile.
If you are not strong enough then just say 'next time'. Plan to travel in your own car to meet at the restaurant and leave slightly early if needs be. No alcohol and relax, oh and did I say smile? Play a heart warming tune before you go in. Sit between the kids, oh and did I say smile? I did? Oh I thought I forgot to say smile.
So how would you be with a friendly neighbour?
Your leg has just been run over, your tv went on the blink, the washing machine needs repair, there is a leak in the loo and your car won't start. Friendly neighbour says 'hi, how are you?'
What do you say?
Your neighbour opposite had his cat run over and it's at the vets.
What do you say?
The guy in the bar you swap baseball stories with just won a holiday in a competition.
What do you say?
Your coworkers daughter is appearing as a guest on a talent show on TV.
What do you say?
How do you say it? Do you look at them and smile as you say it?
I get this - I really do - and I have done this in the past. I have been making the decision to not do this though - not really a reaction, but a decision. I have been removing myself as the cake for my sake. Maybe I have taken it too far. I am very twisted by this. I have the belief that if I put myself in the friendly neighbor position, that is where I will remain, and that is where W wants me, and the stagnant waters will start smelling again.
I do feel like a jerk to my kids when I decline the dinner invite and that is why I am encouraging everyone to eat at home. When I write that, it sounds a lot like I am trying to control everything.
I feel that my current of veering toward D may be the way to get solace. I almost feel that I have made up my mind and there is no going back (maybe she is sensing that).
One trick U, my IC advised me if it's hard to look WW in the eyes or gaze at her face (replace WH for me) then either stare between their eyebrows or defocus on their face by looking at a spot on the wall behind them in the middle of their back. Speak from the centre of your chest, oh and smile it gives warm to the voice. If WW is sitting sit, if standing stand. Say what you need to say wait 5 secs if you get no answer move on smiling. Be ready to move on quickly. If they say I am well then answer that's good to know. If you get a whine, validate (Wonkas cheat sheet) then move on.if you get a rant STFU and walk away.
My interactions with H eased off greatly when I set myself some behavioural targets. I was dealing with aggression not emotional blackmail (crying). I will find that for you from one of my early threads. You can ignore it if it's not useful.
I try something like that, and when I do speak to her, I make the effort to soften my look (I remember a poster here a while back saying in his mind "I love you" while speaking helped. It has been difficult for me to do this and make eye contact with her lately, but I know that is not helpful in any manner.
I have basically been living like she is not here. I take care of about everything in the house and with the kids, and she shows up, sleeps on the couch, and leaves in the morning.
Smile - I know - I have that smile yet. My kids still bring my smile out. W sees me smiling with the kids and sees it go away with her. I also hate being like that - that is not who I want to be.
You can choose not to be the cake and behave as the friendly neighbour. They are not exclusive.
Behaving as if you were the friendly neighbour won't make you not cake either!
In other words if W sees you as potential cake that's good isn't it. Means there is still attraction and the friendly neighbour bit keeps the path home smooth. Behaving as if you were a friendly neighbour doesn't make you one either.
So, if you are going to expect WW to give up OM 100% immediately then that's not going to happen. From what I can read WW have a real tough time with the emotional stuff in piecing.
So for the sake of your kids, if for no other reason like standing, apply Sandi guidelines. Smile. Act as if.
Would you interact with someone who doesn't smile at you, won't go to dinner with the family, and treats you like you don't exist?
That's not to say that you should be cake, 2nd choice or walked all over.
V
Thanks V for sticking with me. I do try to stay away from here from time to time - I have been trying not to obsess over my life so much and staying busy with other things. I have taken on a necessary large house project here too - with future sale in mind.
You can choose not to be the cake and behave as the friendly neighbour. They are not exclusive.
Behaving as if you were the friendly neighbour won't make you not cake either!
In other words if W sees you as potential cake that's good isn't it. Means there is still attraction and the friendly neighbour bit keeps the path home smooth. Behaving as if you were a friendly neighbour doesn't make you one either.
So, if you are going to expect WW to give up OM 100% immediately then that's not going to happen. From what I can read WW have a real tough time with the emotional stuff in piecing.
So for the sake of your kids, if for no other reason like standing, apply Sandi guidelines. Smile. Act as if.
Would you interact with someone who doesn't smile at you, won't go to dinner with the family, and treats you like you don't exist?
That's not to say that you should be cake, 2nd choice or walked all over.
I do get this. I have tried this. Tonight, rather than cooking, I decided to carry in something and waited a while for W to get home. She asked if we should just go out and get something and I agreed. So W, D15 and I went. I don't believe it went very well, we were just their together with D15. No conversation, but no fighting (we really never fight). Just nothing.
Now it's another weekend - I dislike weekends because of the discomfort in my house. More of the same. I try to get away as much as possible.
Plans for next week - I texted S21 and am meeting him for lunch on Monday. I haven't talked to him one on one in a very long time, and I plan on filling him in on the situation.
I told S17 that he can talk to me, ask me questions - even though in the past, the answers from W have been it's none of your business. He seemed relieved by this a little, didn't ask me anything, but seemed happy that he could. I am going to have the same conversation with D15 (I don't think this will go as well - she has not wanted to acknowledge the problems in our house).
I have a meeting with L on Tuesday, IC on Wednesday (she's convinced me to keep going to see her) and my work is going very well - feeling creative again - am enjoying showing my kids what I am working on (and talking enthusiastically enough that I think I am convincing them that I am happy again) - I used to be able to show my projects to W to get her input and critiques.
As far as the lawyer goes, I am looking forward to this, and am a little scared by this too. I want to learn from him, but don't know what his advice will be. Hopefully I will gain confidence in my actions and upcoming actions.
One more note before shutting down - I just don't feel like this situation is going to change. It really is like she is waiting for me to act. Our last round of conversations (which was about 20 minutes long and lasted for about 9 days), I got this: she wishes I would have killed myself, she was sorry for saying that, she still loves OM, she will not leave the house, so she thinks we will have to sell the house (because I want to stay and she wants to stay) - that was 3 weeks ago and nothing since.
By me even playing friendly neighbor, doesn't it just prolong this nothingness? It is already miserable here for me and for her. I really don't know how she can stand it here. I can barely stand it her when she is home. In-house separation stinks - doesn't work.
U
I want to address something that I think is very important indeed.
WW saying to you 'I wish you had killed yourself"?
I had the same remark from my H that he would be better off if I were dead. He meant it and did not apologise, tried to pass it off as a joke.
Well this is serious and most assuredly abusive. It negates your entire existance and once said can never be unsaid. Are you seeing an IC at the moment? Other than here is there someone safe you can talk to? This is something needing to disclose to your L.
I am concerned for you, remarks like this are more than cutting and button pushing. In a religious sense no right minded adult says this, a petulant child to a parent when they can't get their way, and we learn at 5 or 6 that this is unacceptable talk.
Please keep posting, if you want to talk this through.
We started a new abuse thread in newcomers if you want to consider a look.
With regard to D15 it's enough to say you are there. And hugs, lots of hugs. Sounds to me as if the children are in good hands with you. WW's damage is telling me that.
U well done on the dinner, baby step to normalise for your kids.
Big hugs and extra ones
V
Thanks V.
yes - that was hurtful when she said that - it was said in complete anger with her finger poking me in the chest. She tearfully apologized for it two days later. It does not undue it for me - I changed at that point. She has blamed me for this WHOLE situation on something that I said back in January of 2014 (that was really the BD). I accused her meeting a male friend as being a date (that supposedly sent the snowball rolling down the hill). I apologized too many times to count for that and addressed that I didn't know how to deal with jealousy (I had never felt it before and reacted in the wrong way instead of discussing it).
Well - now she wanted to apologize for something she said that is so hurtful. Something that tells me that inside her she does not care if I were here or not. Can't undue that.
I am seeing an IC and she has helped me with my suicidal thoughts and somehow they are gone and I feel good.
Abusive - I don't know, it is not really a pattern, but I don't know enough about it. Things that I remember - she did stab me with a fork once (15 years ago). At the time I felt that I had it coming - it was at the height of my working too much. I see that differently now. (I'm have a feeling she doesn't even remember that)
She has withheld sex during our marriage - I thought that was my problem, but I see that as her control now.
--but now she still goes around acting like all is well during the day without really addressing anything. I am quietly proceeding with what I think my path should be and this is where that anger came from when she said those things to me. It has taken me a long time to figure out what my path should be.
I will continue this later, but thank you so much.
And hugs right back to you!
Finishing from earlier - Did I ever mention that I don't like weekends and Monday's are just a recovery from the weekend - well that's how it is.
It's the time here together and seeing her that bonks me on the head every weekend. It's her nonchalant attitude and her way of having the kids believe her that makes me feel like an outsider/stranger around here. That may seem like normalizing things for the kids - but it sure seems manipulative to me and it is nothing the kids can count on.
But anyway, I do not think I want to consider my situation as abuse (do I feel abused sometimes? - yes). But I do not want to "take away" from someone that has true dangerous physical/emotional abuse happening to them by saying - me too. I don't know if that makes any sense at all.
Also, I have gone through many ideas of what is wrong with my life and situation: I was a shty husband, lover, father and there is a list of things that I need to improve (not the really the case), W with MLC (I don't know - maybe), WW is just out of control (maybe), now with the abuse topic, I can say this may be the case, but really what is the difference for me?
Is having an A emotional torture and abuse for the LBS even if it is not flaunted? well then yes - we are all abused in some way. Should I have just been stronger about it and ended my marriage a long time ago to end the abuse for myself? maybe/probably.
U
Nothing you say takes anything away from another.
Sweet U, your reality and experience is yours to claim. The fact that another has a more vivid sitch makes your own just as true.
There is validity in your own truth and you can own it.
Let WW do as she will, U is becoming.
Peace
V
Thanks V - you are the best!
----Question, because I probably am not thinking of everything that can go wrong: Why would W have taken the title to one of the cars (both names on it) and our marriage certificate with her, what can she do with this information. I have a feeling she may be on the move or knows that I am, but I don't know what she is doing with these things - any ideas?
I have a meeting with the lawyer today. feeling uneasy about this, but it is only informational right now.
I did have lunch with S21 yesterday, just him and I. I haven't spoken to him one on one since about september/october. I found out about his plans with finishing school and proceeding to military. He is very attached to his GF but says he is not letting that direct his life - I don't see that, but.
I also filled him in on what is happening at home. Mostly the what and not so much about the why. Though I did correct some of the assumptions he had. I think it was eye opening for him. He appreciated me being honest with him. He does not want to be blind-sided by this and I agree with this too. (I found out without guiding his conversation, that he does not want to have any interaction with his mother - he described many things throughout his life that may be considered gas-lighting from his mother (I found that really interesting and heartbreaking)). I feel that I still have my connection with my kids and will not lose that. I told him that I will not make them pick sides and I will not bad mouth their mother - he kind of rolled his eyes and said that there is really no decission to make and I should never be worried about losing S21 and S17. We talked about D15 and he sees that she is being pulled by W with money/shopping/gifts. I let him talk about these things and even without him being around, he really sees how things are.
I went with S17 to open a checking account for him yesterday too. He wanted me to do this with him because he doesn't want his mother's name on the account so she cannot have access to it. He does not trust her with his money. This is all enlightening. The boys trust me as their rock - wow.
U-turn, good for you for being there for all your kids. D15 may be pulled by the money/shopping/gifts now, and besides, she shouldn't have choose between you. But you are there and you are the stable one, and that's what they all need. Nice job, dad!
uturn
Looking forward to seeing what happens after the L meeting. Outside looking in I just think this push is needed for you, your W has never had the fear of losing you and reading your progression its hard not to see that. I think in her head this is all going to plan, she gets the A and the OM while still appearing to have that 'happy' family ..... while you are in a torturous enviornment ... its not healthy and I look forward to you taking the next step.
Hang in there ... I'm rooting for you.
Thank you SunnyB - I hope I am proving to the kids that I am the stable one, the boys seem to feel that way, I don't know about D though. I hope also that I am not mistaken in believing that I am the stable one.
Thanks to you too Cali - I feel like I am at the top of the mountain with a little snowball at my feet and all I all I am doing is getting ready to give it a nudge and destroy the whole town below.
Meeting with L happened. It was a long meeting (3 hours) but 1 of which was at his house - he was a former client of mine and I had not seen his final project completed. I learned a lot from him - I don't know if I should get second opinions or shop around though. I do like the fact that I have a working relationship with him (and he is giving me a "discount" rate too - though I am still shocked by his hourly rate (I should have charged him more
)
Being in a no-fault state, the "why" does not matter and we did not really discuss it. He made D, sound very much like a business transaction, which I guess that is all it is. Assets, liabilities, and children. That's it.
I know this sounds trivial, but early in the conversation he stated - well, you are here because you no longer want to be married to this person. I knew this, but that statement, want to be married, really made me think. Do I want to be married to this person, or do I feel that I can no longer make a marriage to this person work, or do I think that the person she now is is not someone I want to be married to. I've thought about all of this before, but this is it - this is the decision to make.
He does not believe mediation is the way to go for a D.
I was surprisingly non-emotional through the whole meeting. I just felt again that this is about dissolving our "corporation" (which by the way I neglected to bring up our business that would need to be changed too).
We talked a lot about my distrust of what she could be up to and how to protect myself and the kids from this. He stated that he could run a credit check to verify things.
I also told him my concerns about W's legal troubles (DUI, court case that I know nothing about, currently driving on a suspended license in a car that has my name on it....) He seemed concerned as well and ran a check of the county court public records and verified that her next court appearance is in Aug., and it seems that she has hidden some other prior reckless driving violation from a couple years ago and several other tickets from me.
As we talked further, the why of the matter seemed to be of more interest to him and he really felt that her actions are not fitting of someone to trust. (not really a pro-marriage stance, but what that's what I expected) (that is his opinion though).
He also said he could give my W's lawyer for her DUI case a call to see if she is representing her for any other cases (if she is working up the D on her end). I told him that I didn't want him to do that. But really I maybe should have allowed it. Ultimately, for my own guilt, I guess I would rather her file than me.
I left with the knowledge and paperwork to fill out for filing.
----
session with IC went well as usual yesterday. We usually discuss what happened during the week but this time after filling her in on the details, we discussed some deeper things. Something that I said caused her to ask me if I felt shame or guilt about this whole mess. I didn't really know what the difference between these two things. As I described my reluctance to tell anyone about my situation, and how people might think this or that that we got D because u-turn is too boring or too quiet or not forceful enough, are feelings of guilt. I don't know what this means for me, but it seems to be something I should address.
She sort of apologized for "not helping me feel better". I told her that is not really why I am here - It does help me dig deeper. She says many of the things that are said here.
Hi U-turn, sounds like a productive meeting with your L. Yes, they are not pro-marriage are they? I think mine is a bit frustrated that I merely want to get the house sold and separate finances - not actually file for D. But you just have to instruct them in your chosen course of action. I agree about the fees - hair raising (I'm in the wrong job.) I try to do as little as possible to waste my L's time.
In terms of guilt and shame. I have read that guilt is more about feeling 'I did something bad' and shame 'I am bad.' Brene Brown has written some interesting stuff on shame, and also has a couple of TED talks..
Good luck with everything :-)
Something that I said caused her to ask me if I felt shame or guilt about this whole mess. I didn't really know what the difference between these two things. As I described my reluctance to tell anyone about my situation, and how people might think this or that that we got D because u-turn is too boring or too quiet or not forceful enough, are feelings of guilt. I don't know what this means for me, but it seems to be something I should address.
U, I'm gonna admit that before BD I had a very different view of who got D. People that were dysfunctional and couldn't make it work out, that's who (said while looking down nose at them). My how things have changed. After BD, I didn't tell anyone at all for the longest time, partly because I didn't want it to get back to my kids who didn't know, but partly because I was just sure they'd view me as a failure and shun me socially. And truth is, I don't get invitations to the couples BBQs anymore, but I choose to believe that it's because they feel awkward, not that it's really about me. And I've met a whole group of single people who never knew my H, and don't care about him in the slightest, much less why I'm D. I could have run off with the mailman and these new people would neither judge nor care. It's kind of liberating. I encourage you to address the shame, guilt, and whatever other perceptions you have around your sich, you'll probably feel a whole lot better afterwards.
P.S. See what I did there?
Something that I said caused her to ask me if I felt shame or guilt about this whole mess. I didn't really know what the difference between these two things. As I described my reluctance to tell anyone about my situation, and how people might think this or that, or that we got D because u-turn is too boring or too quiet or not forceful enough, are feelings of guilt shame. I don't know what this means for me, but it seems to be something I should address.
Damnit - I messed that one up, meant to say shame - see, I guess I really don't know the difference
Thanks Toots - He seemed to be "on board" with making this as simple and non-confrontational as possible to keep fees down, but sometimes that is not controllable depending on the other party.
I thought I was "over" those feeling of comparing myself to OM, and feeling like it is my fault. I guess those feelings are somewhere in there yet.
Sunny - I understand that completely and have had those exact thoughts (good thing W&I are not like that / that will NEVER happen to us
).
I knew very few people that are divorced, but many that we would say - "why on earth are they married?"
I am starting to talk a little to people I am close to about my situation and they seem to not be judgmental in front of me anyway.
I think there will be many things that will make me feel a whole lot better - I see - nice one
Hi U-turn, I'm not really posting a lot as still in hospital, but just watched you to know that I am keeping up on your sitch and wishing you well. Lots of love JB..ps Shame's on of my little burdens too...much too heavy must put it down sometime xxx take care
U
Who knows why W thinks the crazy making thoughts and actions she does. Your brains will be as scrambled as hers if you try to unravel that Gordian knot.
let it unfold in time, it will.
L seems solid, if you want a second opinion then get one. Keep all your cards to yourself, no need to reveal your hand. Fins are your strength and stability. DUI and other offences, that is public record stuff.
Your own special brand of WW is on the slow trail to destruction, it is unkind to prolong it by enabling WW.
Can I discuss guilt and shame? They are very different in my view:
Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.
Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.
U and Jb i came across TED talk resources that may be helpful, it might have been Jim that drew these to my attention. But i know I watched these TED talks many times : Berne Brown on Shame and Vulnerability and very recently Monica Lewinski in a remarkable keynote speech about shame, the young Monica was press Pillored and yet she too was a victim as a young exposed intern. I commend these to you.
I hope that's helpful, I think you are truly ready to explore the issues as recently U I sense that you are truly growing. I am enjoying this development and await the next phase with anticipation. Truly that is coming like a slow train.
V
Can I discuss guilt and shame?
They are very different in my view:
Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.
Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.
Shame and guilt are two different stages of child development according to Erickson
Shame vs Autonomy coming at 2-3 years old
and
Guilt vs Initiative coming at 3-5 years old.
So this can some times be a clue in where a child's growth is stunted
when as an adult they have not learned one or two of these traits.
Just my two cents.
Can I discuss guilt and shame?
They are very different in my view:
Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.
Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.
Shame and guilt are two different stages of child development according to Erickson
Shame vs Autonomy coming at 2-3 years old
and
Guilt vs Initiative coming at 3-5 years old.
So this can some times be a clue in where a child's growth is stunted
when as an adult they have not learned one or two of these traits.
Just my two cents.
Interesting Cadet, could debate it a little. I am not so sure about dear old Milton and some of his psychology of development. Milton thought trance states could not be induced in children too but we know differently. We do know children appear to feel guilt and thought that children felt ashamed when younger. But as for development of adaptive patterns these are not thought to happen automatically but are responsive and llearned. They can be taught as skill sets even to adults.
V
There could not be two men more different; Erik Erikson, European émigré, psychologist, child psychoanalyst and Milton Erickson, Wisconsin farmer’s son, struck down by polio in his young age, choosing medicine as a default career. They would both rise to fame in their lifetimes; Milton Erickson credited as the foremost authority of his day on medical hypnosis whereas Erik Erikson, with his stages of psychosocial development, rivaling and completing Freud’s misguided theory of psychosexual development. The European Erikson’s name became synonymous with concepts such as the identity crisis, adolescence as a moratorium period and ego psychology. The American Erickson was hailed as father of brief therapy, solution focused therapy, neurolinguistic programming and Jay Haley’s family therapy school of strategic therapy. Yet amazingly, the uniting thread was that both men were speaking about psychosocial and family development throughout the life cycle long before these notions became popularized either in professional circles or with the lay public.
I was writing about Erik not Milton.
Thanks Jelly, V, Cadet. Sure is great to get support here.
Jelly - I sure hope you get better soon. Thanks for looking in - I look forward to"talking" with you again.
V & Cadet - Have to be honest, I had to look up much of what you are talking about. You only know what you know - and this is nothing that I know about. I know how lot's of things work but the brain is definitely not one of them. I research things that I don't understand.
Fins = money - right?
autonomy = acting separately from others (I don't really understand what this has to do with shame)
Initiative = starting independently (I don't really understand what this has to do with guilt)
I understand the description of guilt and understand a little about where that comes from. I do not understand where my shame would come from - this is what happened when I spoke of this with my IC. I was describing my perception of what other people may think of my potential divorce without knowing the story. I feel like others may just feel that "yep, that u-turn is a hell of a guy, but that's not enough to keep W happy, so she bolted" Other people's perception is just a fear of mine.
Throughout this, I have had a hard time not comparing myself to OM. Most of the time I feel like this is the lowest type of person. but other times, I feel like - this guy knows how to get what he wants and W just wants this type of lowlife.
I still protect my W and that is something that will be hard for me to stop. I have been talking to some people about our situation, but have not talked too much about why.
Thanks for the resources - I have seen these, but I am going to watch again - I remember them to be very inspiring (Like V).
----
I did some GAL this weekend. I went to my brother's annual cook-out with my kids (I asked my W not to go - this is a first for me - I just wanted to go and have fun). I feel a little guilty for doing this, but she angrily obliged. I had a good time. She was home when I got back home. Sleeping.
I talked to my brother a little - he was asking a lot of questions about W. Why she didn't come, why she hasn't returned his calls. I let him know there is trouble in paradise. He offered his support - I think I will be talking to him again soon. He recently re-fought his D with a new lawyer and things are much more balanced for him.
Father's day - I told W that I was making a big dinner for when S17 got off work. W offered to leave for the day so I could be alone with the kids. I told her she could stay if she wanted to. Her and D15 left for the day (kind of crappy that the kids were all gone), but they were home for dinner. FIL & MIL came over too. It was good, I guess. I felt ok that we were all there for this dinner but not pretending like everything is happy family. I still believe that the in-laws are clueless.
W is still angry at every move I make (without telling her). She found out that I had lunch with S21 and now is pissed about that - or the fact that I didn't tell her (but we don't really talk about anything and I didn't think it was necessary for her to know).
I feel like I need to push forward with my plans - don't want to loose momentum.
No need to reveal my hand - though is it decent of me to tell her when I am proceeding - or just let it happen to her?
As long as you are not trying to dump it on her to hurt her or "wake" her up, I don't see the point. This is YOUR decision for your life. Good luck!
[quote=u-turn]
V & Cadet - Have to be honest, I had to look up much of what you are talking about. You only know what you know - and this is nothing that I know about. I know how lot's of things work but the brain is definitely not one of them. I research things that I don't understand.
Fins = money - right? Financial situation more than mere money
autonomy = acting separately from others (I don't really understand what this has to do with shame) Shame is that which we hide from others, when we are independent of others can be autonomous, we lose the shame. We are doing what is authentic for ourselves. Personally I am more a Brene Brown theorist, we are human and showing our vulnerability reduces the shame.
Initiative = starting independently (I don't really understand what this has to do with guilt)Again a theory, but if guilt motivates us to action it diminishes. I prefer twelve step atonement. But often we feel guilty about things we cannot be responsible for and my model is incomplete.
I understand the description of guilt and understand a little about where that comes from. I do not understand where my shame would come from - this is what happened when I spoke of this with my IC.
My understanding is that shame will arise because at your core your situation is something which you wish to keep private. Usually it's a fear of being judged. It isn't because you perceive you were responsible but it's something you hold yourself accountable for. In the same way that if a thief takes your car and crashes into another and runs away, you are not responsible for the action but may feel accountable for the fact it was unlocked or the alarm wasn't on. If that makes sense. In general we keep the things we are ashamed of hidden from view because we believe others judge us. When we disclose make ourselves vulnerable then we get support and empathy from others.
When I discovered my STBXH was a compulsive gambler I was ashamed, yes I am not the gambler here so I am not responsible for his gambling and I have no guilt for that as it wasn't my action. But I felt accountable because by being blind I felt I enabled, I was ashamed for H gambling and the position it left us. Once I made myself vulnerable by disclosing, I faced my fear and could take action and the shame went. Shame is natural and being secret about things is the usual response. The world does not need to know, just those who are important to you .
I was describing my perception of what other people may think of my potential divorce without knowing the story. I feel like others may just feel that "yep, that u-turn is a hell of a guy, but that's not enough to keep W happy, so she bolted" Other people's perception is just a fear of mine.
Sweet heart that's mind reading, you can't control another's thoughts and besides people only give it a moments thought then move back to their concerns about themselves. They could think anything from "that's what happened to my BIL", "I could give that guy a hug" "what a [censored] thing" to "what? who is that".
Throughout this, I have had a hard time not comparing myself to OM. Most of the time I feel like this is the lowest type of person. but other times, I feel like - this guy knows how to get what he wants and W just wants this type of lowlife.
No pond scum, scuzzy, scrot bag, nasty piece and oh yes, low morals scruples and behaviour.
I still protect my W and that is something that will be hard for me to stop. I have been talking to some people about our situation, but have not talked too much about why.
Stop, you don't need to say anything you don't need to. But no lies, when someone says "sorry to here you and W are separate" then you can say "yes, it's sad and I am working on myself". This is the truth but doesn't protect W.
Thanks for the resources - I have seen these, but I am going to watch again - I remember them to be very inspiring (Like V).
That will help
It is rude of me to enter into philosophical discussions on your thread and I apologise. My understanding is above and is how I understand it.
Apologies again
V
Bravo - thanks
I have no interest in hurting her and don't believe a forewarning will "wake" her up either. I feel it will fuel her fire more though - and that could be a negative for me and possibly the kids.
I don't even know if she will be surprised by it.
Thanks again
V - apologies - really?
First, you are always welcome and I ALWAYS value what you write - you help me every day. Thank you for that.
Second, like I said, I only know what I know, and the things you are writing about are things that I didn't even know I didn't know.
and I do love to learn and am in awe by this wisdom that you show. I can talk about how these things relate to me, but to actually add to what you have written - not so much. It does open my eyes to what may be happening inside my head though.
You do clear this up for me a little. I have often taken on feeling accountable for W's actions (and in my life, other people's actions too). I recognize this.
-------
I also recognize this one. Maybe this is what is described here as dropping the rope, but I have let go (and in a way I fear that I have gone too far). I am doing things only for myself and kids. I now sometimes (last night) actually pity and feel sorry for W. I have now learned to be self-sufficient, the kids know that they can rely on me (and only me if push came to shove). I do everything for myself and the kids, and at times W just sits and mopes. Have I pulled back too far? I feel good, but there's that guilt thing again. What's this about? the real question - have I pulled the kids away from her? Early in this situation, W accused me of trying to do this.
Throughout this, I have had a hard time not comparing myself to OM. Most of the time I feel like this is the lowest type of person. but other times, I feel like - this guy knows how to get what he wants and W just wants this type of lowlife.
I still protect my W and that is something that will be hard for me to stop. I have been talking to some people about our situation, but have not talked too much about why.
I could have written this ... word for friggin word.
For me I know I am more of a man than OM could ever hope to be .. but yeah there is that seed of .. must be something there for W to have wanted that over me. So it sends us spinning, then I read up on the A's a bit .... the WW 'affairs down' ... in my case my W went after a OM whom she would never been allowed to talk to let alone date ... parents would never approve, he is nothing more than a POS honestly .. getting involved with a married woman, safe, no commitment from him required and once she is divorced well now she wants to believe he would be her next ... soulmate of a husband .. this is not the foundation a good relationship is built on .. lies and deciet
W shared with me as the A is over and we are talking things out that OM never connected emotionally, never filled those needs, they never talked like we do ... I do think the direction you are going will have an impact on your W ... I have always felt this with your sitch but its you who needs to pull that trigger .. one I was never willing to pull ... you have my support .. I know how rough this really is.
Let go of the rope (from my archives)
Tug of War with a Monster/let go the rope
Imagine you’re in a tug of war with some huge anxiety (depression etc) monster. You’ve got one end of the rope, and the monster has the other end. In between you, there’s a huge bottomless pit. You’re pulling backward as hard as you can, but the monster keeps on pulling you ever closer to the pit. What’s the best thing to do in that situation?
Pulling harder comes naturally, but the harder you pull, the harder the monster pulls. You’re stuck. What do you need to do?
Dropping the rope means the monster’s still there, but you’re no longer tied up in a struggle with it. Now you can do something more useful.
With another metaphor there are two parties jerking each other towards the pit. The more anxious party ends up being pulled with the others whims towards the pit, letting go the rope stops the randomness.
Being pulled behind a fast moving speedboat and having to follow behind until one lets go. Stops the craziness.
(Harris 2009)
U note that letting go the rope (as opposed to detaching: letting go of the outcome) doesn't make the other party go away, it just stops them jerking you around. They have more respect for you because you are more independent. You take back your own power. I see that as stronger and so will WW!
Sometimes WW go for rotten fruit because it's fermenting. But then so is vinegar.
Hope that helps.
V
getting involved with a married woman, safe, no commitment from him required and once she is divorced well now she wants to believe he would be her next ... soulmate of a husband .. this is not the foundation a good relationship is built on .. lies and deciet
funny that we can see that, but they didn't/don't
W shared with me as the A is over and we are talking things out that OM never connected emotionally, never filled those needs, they never talked like we do ...
This sounds like great news for you Cali - thumbs up!!!
I do think the direction you are going will have an impact on your W ... I have always felt this with your sitch but its you who needs to pull that trigger .. one I was never willing to pull ... you have my support .. I know how rough this really is.
Thank you, that means a lot to me. It almost feels like actually pulling a trigger.
It is really hard, but all will be well.
Thank you for your support as always
U note that letting go the rope (as opposed to detaching: letting go of the outcome) doesn't make the other party go away, it just stops them jerking you around. They have more respect for you because you are more independent. You take back your own power. I see that as stronger and so will WW!
Sometimes WW go for rotten fruit because it's fermenting. But then so is vinegar.
and the grass is always greener over the septic field.
Thanks V!!!
So W informed me last night that her DUI charges were reduced to reckless driving in court yesterday and she's through - besides fees, and 10 hours of class. She paid her lawyer another 1000 out of our common account.
I have mixed feeling - relief, but I also feel like this is another point that makes W feel powerful and invincible (I know - mind reading).
I am worrying about my fins (I am going to start using fins if I may V - thanks ). She is spending money on these things which is a necessity for her - she isn't really holding back on shopping though. This, while I am now intercepting the mail and discovering past due bills, disconnect notices for utilities....... I am paying for these things and more 100% from my accounts just to catch up.
----
She texted me earlier while I was out biking (thanks RAI!!) asking if I wanted to go to a concert that she got tickets for a long time ago - something that we usually go to every year.
Sure, she's thinking of me. Would I like to go? - not really (it's something that I have done in the past because she wanted to go). Do I feel like she wants me to go for her image (we go with a group, including her former boss). Should this be an olive branch moment, when I still feel like we are nowhere? I am thinking not.
I know - newbie question, but.......
We don't even talk - how can we go to a social event like this. I feel if we were even remotely working on us it would make sense, but the way we are right now? (cake)
strike the last part of that post - of course I'm not going
just responded to W:
what's wrong - can't take your d-bag, family-man-of-the-year, fwb to this one? Might look bad to your former boss who hates his x-daughter-in-law for doing this same sh!t to his son.
Don't you remember that you would prefer that I was dead?
----
kidding - feeling a little punchy today.
Is it an event that you like to attend. you don't have to NOT go just to spite her. I have gone to events with W and not exchanged a single word with her. Heck, I do it every weekend at synagogue (probably should not have said heck and synagogue in the same sentence - also a bit punchy today). bottom line, go if you want to go. Don't worry what she wants.
I like your phony response because it is sincere and what you were really thinking. Too bad we can't use it
RAI
P.S. Way to bike! That's what I'm talkin' about! I have a run date with friend at 9PM,weather permitting.
Thanks RAI, this is not an event that I would care to go to. I usually go for her to be with her and see her have fun. So not going is not going to make me feel bad about missing the event.
Besides, I am worried again about bad memories of last year's concert where she was texting OM about rather being there with him (caught her doing that) - ouch
So - this year I'd be going for the betterment of our situation. But I feel that will not work.
---
rode 16 miles today - sadly it was the first ride this year - was taking 30 mile trips at the end of last year. I have the taste and want to go again.
Hope you get your run in - I beat the rain.
Hi U-Turn,
I just wanted to stop by and see how you are? It's been a while since I posted in your thread. I'm sorry about that--I haven't forgotten about you.
You brought a huge grin to my face and I LOL with the phony text! I agree with RAI, I liked it because that's probably how you really feel. Who can blame you?
Hang in there, please. You can get thru this and will.
I'll say a prayer for you tonight.
You're friend,
Bob
U
A polite "thanks but no thanks". ( your mock response made me giggly)
You really don't need jerking around.
The 1,000 from the joint account? U that is her issue she needs to repay it. As for past dues take the cash from the joint account to refund the stuff you are paying out.
Does the joint account have overdraft facility. If so careful........
Look after YOUR fins.
V
Thanks for checking in Bob - you are a great friend to so many on these boards- you are so generous with your kind words and prayers to everyone.
Thank you - Peace to you.
Thanks V:It seems that she doesn't have her own account, there's my account and the common account now. So I still see any money that she spends. It is getting very complicated to keep track of who's paying what. The common account is very near empty until her check goes into it.
I am trying to pay for all of the past due necessities that have my name on it and others (utilities, school, phone) plus s17s auto repair (safety issue) groceries, house repair items) because what choice do I have. She has been buying some groceries, and now all of these legal fees - and still nails, clothes....)
not complaining, I am thankful for having a job, ways to pay for these things, and I really for knowing it is my responsibility.
I am worried about my fins and it is going to get worse. I have been stepping up my business and that's going ok right now.
----
journal:
Earlier in the day today, while I was walking the dog (when I do some of my best thinking), I decided. I am going to retain the L and begin the process. I really feel that it is the way. It isn't a reaction to anything current, just accumulation sht I guess. I feel like I can put us all out of our misery this way.
and I was reminded somehow of something that happened to me when I was probably 10 or 11. shortened story - skip ahead if you'd like: I was hired to mow my neighbor's lawn which was really overgrown. While mowing, I ran over a (nest?) of mamma and baby rabbits. Mamma got away, but I had 7 dismembered but live baby rabbits that were suffering, and being 11, I panicked a little and made the decision to end their lives to help them, to remove their pain. I ended up killing them all. Looking back, maybe I should have decided to patch them up, nurse them to health, but in that instant, I didn't make that decision. Sounds trivial, but I think I was truly affected by this being 35 years ago and still very vivid.
but anyway
Last night's spew about ordering pizza was a good topper - she ramped up to 11 and threw her phone when I asked her if she was ordering the pizza or should I. Her antics made d15 cry and leave the room. (and this is over my control and dragging the kids into our situation - as she states). yikes
----
Well - turns out that the concert was tonight not last night. so she asked me again and I said no. she stewed about that and went to the concert. She later texted me (I am not going to put the whole exchange but maybe the highlights - though it really didn't go anywhere except that she just wants me to be her friend)
w:you refuse to have any civil relationship, you have no desire to be friends.
w:you put the kids in the middle of it
w:you cannot even look at me
me:I'm sorry you feel that way - I don't know how you think I am putting the kids in the middle of this
w:you have and do not even realize it
me:the kids are involved whether you hide it or not. again you seem to blame me for everything(not exactly validating)
w:No. I've told you 100 times I will take all the blame for the destruction of our marriage - put it on a billboard if it makes you happy.
me: tell me how we are friends. I'm not sure I understand that. I am civil and will continue to be, I am just moving forward - yes it does affect the kids.
w:our marriage was over and anything going forward would need to be new - I though we agreed to that
me: we did - relationship was over, marriage was not. This three headed version of new does not work for me. and being changed to a buddy does not work for me.
w:It's pretty sad when you won't even try to be my friend and go to a concert
me: it is sad, it is all sad. do you think any of this makes me happy? You have not treated me as a friend.
w:*****you have shunned me and shamed me.
me:it is not my intention - it must hurt to feel that way
me: I am just trying to move forward
me: I'll ask again what has changed in the last 18 months, 12 months, 2 months. I see nothing.
w:ok
It then tapered off into her thinking it was a circle conversation and me saying it's not, and me saying she is just avoiding and not addressing any problems.
w:okay!!!!(her version of walking out of the room)
I know - stupid to even get into a conversation like this, seeing that it is the only conversation that we have had in 2 months.
I love weekends
Hey U,
Glad to see you posting!
Wow that incident with the rabbits, aged 11. I can see how that would leave a legacy of some kind. Interesting those moments from childhood that pop up through this process. I have had many myself recently, I was a small child 5-10 years who spent a lot of time in hospital. A few triggers for me recently.
As for your text exchange with your wife, I can only imagine how it feels for both of you to feel so misunderstood. A million times a day I attempt to get my head around my exs perspective of me, of us and his actions. I am at a loss and coming to the conclusion that it is not my business to understand, but more to just accept for my own sanity. I hope you have more peace for you and your children, in the coming days, weeks months.
Ps ups to you for not losing it with your wife about the money for the lawyer. That would have tipped me completely, that's just taking the proverbial!
Anyway on a more positive note, to hear you taking about your cycling, You have been planting seeds for me about getting back on my road bike. I haven't really ridden in over year. Ex killed the joy for me. I have two road bikes and a mountain bike and have loved cycling in the past. It was a form of therapy in the past, but cycling all got mixed up with ex. Maybe I can find my joy for it again. You have been doing some good miles for starting out, makes me a little envious.
Anway thinking of you. Be well xxxJB
Hey Jelly - I hope you are feeling better - (I am taking a shot in the dark and guessing you are out of the hospital? (internet access clue))-
I was actually going to say earlier that I was training to bike to NZ to visit JB. chicago to NZ - now that's a trip.
Now - new goal - cycling with JB in NZ.
Yeh - that text thing. crappy conversation - I was thinking after 2 months we could have done better. I had EXPECTATIONS of more. but not surprised. I held back with many of the things that I wanted to say and re-wrote every line 5 times and still ended up with that. I don't see hope.
Money - I hate money - she wants to be so independent and powerful, but needs me for the lifting yet.
Thanks for writing - always a joy to hear from you.
How are you doing - really?
Hi U,
I feel your pain. Weekends are so tough. I had a real difficult time with PMA today. I was not sure how I was even going to make it through the day. It's hard to even do enjoyable things when you are consumed by feelings such as ours. Seeing your post just now made me feel much better that I am not alone in this ordeal. Except for my kids being a bit younger, or sitchs are so similar. We have even arrived at the decision to move on within days of each other. Looks like we will need to lean on each other for the next while. On days like today, I can't even type fast enough. I have so many emotions to get off my chest.
Our WWs are so self centered. They can't possibly fathom how their actions affect those around them.
We made it through another day. Let's hope tomorrow is better.
Your friend,
RAI
Oh U, definitely come and ride here in NZ! It would be well worth it and you would inspire me to get some time on the saddle and get myself out there again. It is winter here and I hate riding in the cold. I have in the past overcome this hate, and trained in the frost and fog, maybe just maybe you can inspire me to harden up and get myself out there again. Fair is fair though too Mr U, that if you cycle here, that sometime in the future I can have a trip to you in Chicago, a part of the world I have always wanted to visit. Spring/summer time of course, your winters seem a tad more severe than here in NZ.
As for how I really am, I think I'm ok, I say think because it has been such a strange two months. I will however formulate an update sometime soon and put it on my thread. You will have to stay tuned I guess.
In the meantime U, chin up and know that you are not alone as move through this next phase with your W and children. Miles and distance mean nothing in this virtual world. I will stop by for a coffee and chat soon!
XxxxJB
Thanks for checking in Bob - you are a great friend to so many on these boards- you are so generous with your kind words and prayers to everyone.
Thank you - Peace to you.
Hi U,
You're very welcome!
I appreciate the kind words and your post in my thread. We are all here to help each other. What a "family!"
Peace to you as well. You will be ok!
Bob
U
Fins I can chat about lots.
Time for WW to have her own account and for the two of you to pay bills jointly.
This is how:
WW has her account
U has his account
WW and U pay set sum to joint account
Joint Bills get paid from joint account
Joint Bills are always agreed in advance, power, food, house and contents insurance, family costs etc....
Each pays own car...
I understand about the business Fins, mine is so dire it isn't true. All because I am not functioning well.
V
yes V - I believe this is how it should work for now, but I don't see how I can force this either. Yes - fair is fair, but this would take an actual conversation and agreement.
The business - yes - my drowning and depression caused a lack of function since BD. I can only blame myself for this because it is how I handled my sitch - it paralyzed me in many ways. I have made a major recovery here.
I am resorting to writing an apology/explanation letter to the owner of each bridge I burned along the way. It is embarrassing, but I don't know what else I can do to re-build.
---
On another front, it seems that a conversation that I had with my brother turned into a rumor mill. W has heard from someone that we are getting a divorce. This is not exactly how I wanted this to play out, and I'm not exactly sure how it happened. I haven't told anyone that we are getting a divorce, because I do not really know that - I only told brother that we were having troubles when he was wondering why she wasn't at his party with me. (In no way did I indicate that there was an affair.)
But anyway, I have to address this in some way with W. I know I probably shouldn't have talked to my brother, but I do not really want to hide or make up excuses or lie either.
I would guess that W feels outed and that it is nobody's business - maybe she is right. I didn't intend for this to happen, but I also feel that my own family deserves to know why I have been the way I have been for the last year and a half.
This may fall under the scorched earth category - or it may go away - or it may just prod things along and make W realize that this is really happening.
RAI - Thanks for writing that. I feel that there are many similarities in our situation and we can lean on each other.
Here's hoping for a good week.
Thanks again!!
Probably blew this one:
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
Although any discussion of anything with anyone would upset W. I was not looking for help from anyone, just a short explanation of my life - and I poorly thought that it would stay between us. I guess it just puts a crimp in her idea of hiding forever.
Sorry I said it? not really - sorry it spread? probably. sorry it got back to W? not really at this point.
But anyway, I have to address this in some way with W. I know I probably shouldn't have talked to my brother, but I do not really want to hide or make up excuses or lie either.
I would guess that W feels outed and that it is nobody's business - maybe she is right. I didn't intend for this to happen, but I also feel that my own family deserves to know why I have been the way I have been for the last year and a half.
u,
Stop. Remember that your WW is responsible for
all of this. I have been pretty meticulous about not sharing my private matters. Nevertheless, people talk and continue to talk. People are talking about my troubles literally 700 miles away. They most certainly did not hear it from me. People talk. You don't need to tell the whole world, of course, but it is not the end of the world that you told your brother.
I also don't think you need to address this with your W. SHE HAD THE A. You do not need to apologize or make excuses why someone knows. You did not need her consent or permission to tell someone, just like she did not ask your consent to go outside the M. Regarding being outed, you also don't know what W feels. The best response, in this case, is no response. Move on.
RAI
Hey lovely U. I have to say I agree fully with RAI on this one, and he put it far more politely and respectfully than what was going in my head when read your last few posts. your wife has called the shots for far too long. Seeking support in times of hardship requires no explanation!
Thanks RAI & Jelly. I do agree with this and did just ignore the text barrage.
but on to another today and to me this contradicts yesterday's with W.
an old friend of ours who we haven't seen in probably 5 years is in a nearby city and is having trouble. W seems to be drawn to these wounded souls and wants to save people (and to me that is how she started with OM). She was packing up and going to either bring friend to our house, or stay in the city with him at his hotel. Red flags went off in my head and I questioned this (not saying no, but questioning to find out more info).
I have not talked to him in years, but it seems that W does and has been recently often.
By questioning this, she is accusing me of not standing up for friends, hoping I will never need a friend, saying that her family has always showed me love (I responded to this one in agreement). She says now she knows who I am.
I did say to her that when she hides and acts secretively, I don't know what to trust. I know nothing about this so I questioned it.
she is tired of my word games as she put it - i corrected her when she said that I accused her of making it up. I told her that I questioned it.
angry blargidy blar after that. (marriage/relationship, accuse/question) OOPS learned too much about words here I guess.
I am not purposely trying to push buttons with her, I am just trying to be as clear as possible what I mean so there is no misunderstanding. I don't think she sees it that way.
I think this contradicts yesterdays nonsense because now she sees this other wounded soul that needs an ear or help, but I was berated yesterday for talking to my family - nice. guess she tends to care for others more than her own family.
and this ^^^ bothers me because clearly I am not detached enough to not care - and my distrust is so deep that I don't know how I would shake it.
distrust of W and her potentially glomming on to another broken soul to repair who strokes her ego. This seems to be a problem that I'VE had. Even if OM1 were a thing of the past, how would I ever get past it and not suspect that every male lost soul that she wants to fix is not the next predator?
From many of the text messages that I am still trying to un-see from a year ago, this was the case (two broken souls that found each other and leaned on each other - blech)
I just don't want any more predators or even potential predators around my family.
She would deny all of this and think I was just jealous and crazy - and we cannot talk about it.
distrust of W and her potentially glomming on to another broken soul to repair who strokes her ego. This seems to be a problem that I'VE had. Even if OM1 were a thing of the past, how would I ever get past it and not suspect that every male lost soul that she wants to fix is not the next predator?
U
Your wife needs to arrive at a point that she is remorseful for what she has done and would do anything to prove that to you, and to show that she is capable of trustworthy behavior. Seems she is not at this point yet.
For me its full transparency, full disclosure, and no more secret lives, no more Married-Sinlge type things. That's the start point, and now has been a slow progress of building trust which will take years, but everything is out in the open .. no more elephants .. that's where you would have to be but at this point your W is still in the A lala-land fog ... honestly I think its going to take her feeling she will lose you to re-think this wonderful situation where she feels everyone's needs are being met and you all should be happy.
Right Cali - I get this. I seem to be asking the same questions that I did here 6 months ago. EVERYTHING is stuck in the mud here.
-------
I've retained the lawyer and am proceeding. It is a sickening feeling - but it is my path. To be honest, I am more than a little scared.
I will begin finding the information and filling out the rough draft forms.
----
I had a (great?) discussion with my IC last night, I let her know what my plans were - she sees this as a healthy thing that I am doing for myself and family. (I broke down in her office - a little embarrassing). But all we can see is that I am going to continue to be sh!t on by someone who is truly unraveling. I don't know if she's unraveling or if everything is still perfect in her world - I don't know.
I asked IC if people that are unraveling ever know they are, if they figure that out. She told me that I did, and that's why I found help.
IC found the story about W berating me about talking with my brother for support and then berating me for not stepping up to help our friend very telling of how she is yanking me around. I do feel yanked around by all of this (as V put it a couple of posts back).
She thinks I have come a long way in becoming my own person.
I talked about timelines and what this summer means to me. My teaching job starts again mid august and I do not want to under-perform (my standards) AGAIN. Teaching has actually become part of me - not just a way to supplement. I do not want to allow myself to under-perform with my business again - this business has been part of me for a long time. (though it has sentimental value for me too / started with W). That being said, I wanted to have my direction this summer.
Yes these are just jobs and I could go work anywhere, but this is what I do, what I like, how I provide for my family (kids). My kids have seen me enjoy working - taking pride in it. I don't feel that work will ever supersede my family or relationships, but as my kids get older, and they need/want less time from me, it is something to occupy myself that I enjoy.
Just an update - thanks for everyone's support!
U
I empathise with you a great deal, as I too struggle to perform. I say I function but I don't perform.
I find if I begin then I can carry on moving forward. The key is to begin.
Can I ask what tactics you use to motivate yourself?
The bravest poster I know on this is mustardseed who pushed through her way through a very difficult job position. I admire her strength and have taken a lot from it.
I admire your attitude to your working life making it part of your core values.
IC is important to some of us for recovery, the right IC makes a big difference in letting go of the rope.
V
Apologies internet ate part of my post as a result of fat finger syndrome.
If you are going to 'break down' and cry then the IC office is the best place, I can think of no better than being with a 'safe' person. Tears make you strong, if it helps Google lacrimal fluid and you will understand how important tears are to cleanse the body and soul.
U I am smiling for you now. this is a very important corner turned, very important indeed, I read it in your written words, there is a very strong positivity in the tone. Let it unfold as it will.
Peace
V
Thanks for your warm words V - they always help.
I too lost a long post that I was trying to write yesterday - poof gone - dead battery - probably for the best.
As far as motivation, to be honest, I was tired of letting more people down and being dragged down by that. It was a terrible cycle that I couldn't break free of.
I am still quite distracted at times (this forum does not exactly help with that - I find myself getting lost reading everyone's story) so I do limit my time here.
At some point I realized that there is nothing I can do about my M situation - nothing. and especially nothing at the time I should be working.
It really is all about taking the first step.
Doing a good, thorough job, being creative, making people happy with the product they are getting; all this helps my PMA which in turn helps my motivation to do more.
I am getting on track - but not nearly there yet.
THINGS ARE UNFOLDING
Thanks Vanilla