oh boy. Lots of things to discuss. I'm sure I screwed up on multiple levels. Here goes...
Kramers Journey Letting go Q's Newbie needing advice I was just getting ready to walk into my new group counseling session when I received a phone call from my wife. Keep in mind that we haven't talked or seen each other for 5 weeks. I texted her and told her I was at therapy and asked if it was an emergency. She responded that it was not, but said that she was having a breakdown and really wanted to talk. I called her back and she was tearful, sad, and highly upset. She said that she had made a mess out of everything and her life was in shambles. She apologized profusely for her affair and for blindsiding me. She was beside herself with grief, and I let her talk and cry and validated her feelings. This went on for a good 20 minutes, and I asked her if she wanted to have an actual face to face conversation to further the conversation. She did and we met at a restaurant that we used to go to.
We spent 2 hours talking about what happened to our relationship. I owned my part of becoming neglectful and distant, and she explained how she felt alone and vulnerable, and felt like a teenager when OM started romancing her. She told me that she feels ashamed and embarrassed by her actions, but couldn't escape the affair fog that she was in. She was very forthright and detailed, and seemed quite sincere in her apology. She said that she has made such a mess of everything and cannot believe her behavior and actions. She mentioned that she didn't like being single and was just as miserable now as she was when we were together, even though I'm out of the picture now. I let her talk and validated her feelings. I made eye contact and did not pass judgment or express anger.
We talked about our life together and the good times that we had together. She asked about my kids and grandchildren, and got tearful when I caught her up on things. I told her that the one silver lining of our split was allowing me to recognize my faults and work on being a better person. She remarked that I seemed happy and reminded her of the guy I was when we first started dating. Honestly, it was the deepest conversation we have had in years.
We then walked back to her car and hugged. I tried to pull away, but she wouldn't let me. She cried on my shoulder for a long time. I did bring up to her that she was not alone and that she was in a relationship with someone else, and she told me that he only wants to be friends now. She also said that he told her she was "boring and predictable". I let her talk, and told her that I would not use those adjectives to describe her. We hugged s bit longer and then I left. No kisses, no "I love yous", and no groveling on my part. I acknowledged her feelings and validated them, and I also admitted my part in the marriage's demise.
So here I sit, trying to deconstruct what just happened. It seems obvious that she had an argument with OM. By no means do I think that he's out of the picture, but this is the first crack that I have seen in their relationship. I also think that the stress of filing divorce, moving, extra expenses, and stress are finally catching up to her. She is starting to experience real life now, and not this perfect fairy tale. I am not going to read too much into it at this time, but don't want to completely ignore things either. I could really use some advice and guidance from my fellow posters.
One more thing: some of you will remember how hard it was for me not to give her a card or gift on Mothers Day. I have always been good about giving thoughtful gifts to her, and it was a HUGE 180 not doing anything. She mentioned NUMEROUS times that she was devastated and sad that I didn't do anything. Hmmm, seems like you all were right.
I think you are wise not to read to much into this, although I do think it's a step in the right direction. Good on you for keeping a straight head on your shoulders while meeting her.
Seems like they have had a falling out, and since you're been her rock she need you when things are shaky. I think your 180 really worked, and made an impression on her how life would be without you.
I'm very new to this but I think I would continue to be firm on showing in actions what life would be without you, but also be a friendly ear up to a point.
Think you're doing great! Fingers crossed for you!
Hug! (Yes, I'm a hugger..)
Hope this is the start of something better for you. Again, as Tulo said, it might just be an argument, but it might be that she has realised what she is throwing away and re-thinking.
Don't give up hope!
Stand tall
You did well
Let us hope the fog is lifting
I don't know if I did well or not, but I can honestly say that I gave it my best shot. We ran into each other at the gym this morning. Cordial conversation, but nothing in depth. She went to her house to shower afterward, and I showered at the gym and went to work.
My dilemma now is what to do next, and what not to do. I ansolutely do not want to persue, and I do not want to read too much into this. My initial thoughts are to remain dark, and let her initiate further contact. I have plans the next few nights, and I will keep those plans.
Whatever is going on in her life, she needs to deal with. I DO NOT want to become a friend or shoulder to cry on if she is having problems with her OM relationship.
Thoughts???
I agree with your thoughts. You can't take four steps backwards after any single event. Keep your plans and let her come to you.
Wow Kramer
Way to go with being a firm loving non judgmental rock. I am so proud of you!
I bet your head is spinning.
I would take it slowly - yes I think the cracks are showing in her fantasy. I would remain a strong loving but distant presence. She knows where to find you.
Obviously what you have been doing is working. I would do to us to be cordial and polite and see what happens.
Don't give in - she may just be temp checking - you really have no idea what is going on within her head.
I would not pursue.
Stay strong!!
Yes my head is spinning. This was totally unexpected.
I'm not gonna lie. A tiny part of me wanted to say "I told you so" to her, but of course I didn't.
She made the comment "I never thought I would be divorced at this stage in my life" again. I didn't say anything, but looked at her with an arched eyebrow and my head cocked to the side. She immediately started crying and said "yes, I know it's all my doing". I let her cry.
You're right, it is your doing.
Kramer,
I think you did great, especially considering that it was unexpected and you didn't have any time to prepare. Stick to doing the things that got you here.
I'm sure that her "breakdown" is a result of fight with OM, the stress and chaos with her kids living at the house, and my detachment. Could be nothing more than temp checking or trying to use me as a shoulder to cry on.
I'm not going to try and read too much into it, but I'm not gonna lie...it felt good.
Anybody know how to get Starsky, sandi, or Mr Bond involved?
I'm not gonna lie. A tiny part of me wanted to say "I told you so" to her, but of course I didn't.
Hi Kramer,
Good for you. If you had said that, who knows how many steps back your R would've taken? I'm so glad you took the high road.
You asked a question I've often wondered: "Anybody know how to get Starsky, sandi, or Mr Bond involved?" Hopefully, when they have time, they'll check in on your sitch and comment on your continuing journey.
You're a man of integrity, don't ever change that! Please stay strong and do not pursue her, okay?
Take care.
Bob
Nope, no pursuit. I didn't contact her all day. She sent a few superficial texts to me this evening and I waited about an hour to respond. She just texted me again to tell me that I suck at texting because I take so long to respond. That is by design. I don't want to seem TOO available, and want her to wonder what I'm up to. Hopefully that's a good strategy.
Nope, no pursuit. I didn't contact her all day. She sent a few superficial texts to me this evening and I waited about an hour to respond. She just texted me again to tell me that I suck at texting because I take so long to respond. That is by design. I don't want to seem TOO available, and want her to wonder what I'm up to. Hopefully that's a good strategy.
Haha. I'm the same way about replying to STBX's texts. I think that's a good strategy. Don't want them to think we are sitting by our phone waiting for their breadcrumbs...even though we kind of are LOL. Just goes to show how much more work I need to do to detach. Keep up the good work, Kramer.
Anybody know how to get Starsky, sandi, or Mr Bond involved?
I've often thought I need some kind of a Bat Signal for them.
I did make an interesting observation. During our conversation, she told me that she is embarrassed about our divorce, and that she hasn't told anybody at work. She also said that she still wears her ring all the time. I know for a fact that she has told people at work about us, and the recent pictures I have seen of her do not show her wearing a ring.
None of this means anything by itself, but it does show that she is not to be believed, and that I must be wary.
Hi Kramer, hope you are well and don't mind me dropping by. My WW not only doesn't wear her rings any more but she brazenly tells everyone she's in a 'new relationship'. I think you are lucky my friend.
Peace.
I give you credit for trying to stay level headed about this last turn of events. I also know you are hoping this is a good sign. Bear in mind that she pretty much got dumped by OM and her ego is hurting badly. She knows if she turns to good ole Kramer, he will tell her how wonderful she really is, and he will want her even if OM doesn't. In so many words, you told her what she wanted to hear......even saying you would not describe her in the words OM used.
All in all, you didn't screw up too badly. You need to play it really cool right now, or she'll hurt you again. She was looking for an ego shot and you gave her one. Your biggest problem at the moment is not allowing yourself to start blowing this out of proportion and believing she's ready to reconcile. Instead of assuring her, it would be better (if she does this again) to just listen and if she seems to be pushing you, tell her you need time to think about things.
If you start acting excited/happy, she'll pull away. If you start pursuing, she's gone. Don't make it too easy for her, b/c she has to work to get you back again. Otherwise, you will go through this again, IMO.
I have to go for now, but I saw where you thought detaching was similar to
Really GAL big time, now. Do not try getting closer, or any of that stuff. She was reacting out of her emotions. If she meant what she said about being sorry, time will prove it. Her words have been said by many insincere WW's. Yes, she's made a mess of things, but how remorseful is she for the pain she's caused you and the destruction around her (including the M).
I give you credit for trying to stay level headed about this last turn of events. I also know you are hoping this is a good sign. Bear in mind that she pretty much got dumped by OM and her ego is hurting badly. She knows if she turns to good ole Kramer, he will tell her how wonderful she really is, and he will want her even if OM doesn't. In so many words, you told her what she wanted to hear......even saying you would not describe her in the words OM used.
All in all, you didn't screw up too badly. You need to play it really cool right now, or she'll hurt you again. She was looking for an ego shot and you gave her one. Your biggest problem at the moment is not allowing yourself to start blowing this out of proportion and believing she's ready to reconcile. Instead of assuring her, it would be better (if she does this again) to just listen and if she seems to be pushing you, tell her you need time to think about things.
If you start acting excited/happy, she'll pull away. If you start pursuing, she's gone. Don't make it too easy for her, b/c she has to work to get you back again. Otherwise, you will go through this again, IMO.
I have to go for now, but I saw where you thought detaching was similar to
Really GAL big time, now. Do not try getting closer, or any of that stuff. She was reacting out of her emotions. If she meant what she said about being sorry, time will prove it. Her words have been said by many insincere WW's. Yes, she's made a mess of things, but how remorseful is she for the pain she's caused you and the destruction around her (including the M).
Sandi,
You don't know how happy I am that you came by and commented on my thread. You offer such a unique perspective, and I really want to do the right things here.
You are right in that I provided an ego boost. I knew that even as I was doing it, but I was trying to avoid any R talk with her. I tried to validate without pursuing, and remained upbeat. I guess my big question is how to handle things differently without coming across as cold and indifferent, IF the opportunity presents itself.
Keep in mind that we are living separately and have no children together. Other than occasional financial issues, there is no reason for us to communicate or see each other. I have a lawyer who is handling divorce proceedings, and my financials are due any day. After that, I'm not sure what happens next.
If she calls crying again, do I just let her cry? What do I say? How will I know that she is sincere?
Also, I think your response regarding detachment may have got cut off. I am trying my best, but can always use pointers from the pros.
Again, thank you so much and please check in from time to time if you are able.
I also want to share something with the group, which was unexpected and made me feel good inside.
As most of you know, my bio kids have long ago left the nest, and we were living with my wife's bio children and niece. Since the affair, all of her kids except her 17 year old son have been angry with her for her behavior. Her niece lives with me. I have remained in contact with my stepchildren, and have them over regularly for dinner. We were a family for 17 years, and I did not abandom them when their mother left me.
The kids (young adults) and I HAVE had friction over the past few years because of their behavior (drugs, defiance, and problems with authority). I tried to provide a stable and structured home life, but they were not happy with my authority (or so I thought).
During my recent talk with my wife, she told me that the kids have been arguing with her and blaming her for breaking the family up. One of the twins asked her if she even missed me, and one of them put up pictures of their mother and I all over the house. Point is, they actually did appreciate me, and are pushing their mother into getting back together with me.
This came as a huge surprise to me. Things sure work in mysterious ways.
Awww...See Kramer? The truth wins, integrity wins, discipline wins, we knew it all along.
What a great Man you are and have been through this crisis to your family.
Kramer, your self esteem and sense of worth and no bs - it is radiating out if these posts. Good on you.
Zelda,
I appreciate the kind words, but I just don't agree with you. My self confidence and self worth have plummeted since this happened. I have always been a good person, but compromised my values and lost myself. I am simply trying to regain who I once was and be a good man. I may never get a chance to be a good husband, but it won't be for lack of trying.
Kramer, I think we all know what you're talking about.
My hair is as thin as it has ever been in my life, and I spent most of the month in the fetal position.
It just seems like you are drawing on a real strength under your hurt. Hugs.
Nope, no pursuit. I didn't contact her all day. She sent a few superficial texts to me this evening and I waited about an hour to respond. She just texted me again to tell me that I suck at texting because I take so long to respond. That is by design. I don't want to seem TOO available, and want her to wonder what I'm up to. Hopefully that's a good strategy.
Hi Kramer,
One word for you -- Perfect!
Hang in there, you are doing the best you can, buddy.
Bob
If she calls crying again, do I just let her cry? What do I say? How will I know that she is sincere?
I actually talked about this very thing in one of my threads, b/c it is not uncommon for the WW. I am going to say something here about validation, and I don't want to be misunderstood by anyone b/c I know Wonka has a thread about validation. I am a firm believer in a time for everything, and I think there are times the LBH is too quick to "validate" when he should STFU. It is fine to listen to what she has to say, but this was the time to keep quite and not assure her of anything. LBH'S want to jump in and not only over-validate to the point of a$$ kissing, but they want to also tell her again how he still is willing to work on the M. This is not the time for either one. This is the time that she could realize she is losing her H!! But the minute he starts with the validating, she fails to reach that threshold b/c he jumped in to soothe her feelings.
A lot of men do not know how to validate, and I think that may have inspired Wonka with the cheat sheet to help out. I am concerned that a lot of LBH'S still don't get it, and mess up by over-killing when they should just keep their lips sealed. Know what I mean?
She may or may not call again for more ego food, depending on how the A goes. Even if OM is through with her, it doesn't mean she is over him....plus she will have to go through withdrawals. If they work together, how successful will that be? But anyway, if you get another opportunity, you need to play hard to get. Only, don't just play it. If she ever reaches the point of wanting to get back together, it will be b/c she thinks you are slipping through her fingers. This is what I try to get you guys to see!
Instead of reassuring her of how interested you are in her pity party, you need to pull back and leave her with the impression she waited too long and is giving too little. She will realize she has to step up her game if she expects you to care that she is hurt over OM! I mean seriously, that is why she called, b/c she had been jilted.
So, let her cry and have her pity-party while you listen. If you are looking for some idea of what to say, how about Starsky's line? "Yes, this has been very difficult for everyone". That
should be a truth dart aimed at her heart. Not to enter into the blame game or to have a relationship talk, or anything else. Another example would be to say, "There are no winners in this type of situation". " I wish I could believe what you are saying". Something along those lines. If she gets defensive, asks what you mean by that statement, tell her nothing. Do not explain yourself. remember, she called "you". At any point in her emotional spill she becomes angry or disrespectful, you tell her this is not the time to talk, while she's angry.
Don't misunderstand and think I am telling you to be icy cold, sound hateful or cruel, etc. Speak with gentleness (as long as she is not getting riled). This is not the time to preach, pay back time, or snide remarks.
The reason I say not to misunderstand is b/c I think you misunderstand the detaching concept. You think it is the same as ignoring her. Some men think it means to act cold or mad, or to be physically detached. Neither are correct. Detaching is a mental attitude. It is when your emotions about her do not rule your life. It is about having a life independently from her. You should not depend on M to identify who are as a person, or to take the place of everything and everyone else. It is about having the emotional ability to be her in her presence and
not completely ignoring her, b/c it doesn't bother you. You don't get excited if she calls, or depressed if she doesn't call. You don't make decisions based on how those decisions will affect your wayward W's feelings (good or bad). It means you aren't worried about what she may think you mean by whatever you do. Go back and read the detaching link Cadet posts on newcomer's threads.
Once when I was trying to explain detachment, I used the word "indifference", but that's not a very good word to use. Think about the popular school football player and a girl, who has a wild crush on him, wants to get his undivided attention. Picture him standing around talking to his buddies when this girl walks up to group and tries to join in. If she says something directly to him, he looks at her and is polite with few as words as possible.......then immediately he turns his attention back to his buddies as though she had zero affect on him. Do you know how this affects her? As long as he keeps his cool, she will see it as a challenge. But if he starts following her around, she'll quickly lose interest, b/c he was too easy to wrap around her finger.
Have I answered your questions, or confused you more?
In every case I can remember at the moment, where the WW called out of blue and with the whole crying scene.......it was purely for her own selfish reasons. Even if she uses words like "sorry" and how she's "made a mess out of things", it does not mean she is remorseful. I have never seen it happen that way, or that easily. She has to suffer more loss and the remorse comes slowly. She has to go through a process. If you handle things correctly, you will not jump at every little incident from her. How will you know when she really means what she is saying? Her actions matches her words. In the meantime, you don't rush and don't push it. And, don't get flustered and worry that she may "reach out" to you and you push her away. Yes, I am expecting you to say that next.
Sandi,
I agree with everything you have said. I believe that she may be sad and perhaps sorry, but definitely not remorseful at this point. I used the very phrases that you advocated and did not mention working on the relationship at all. I filled her in on what was happening with the kids and grandchildren, and was upbeat and positive. No snide answers, sad face, crying, or pleading. I did, however, stroke her ego and told her that I disagreed with OM assessment. I should not have done that.
I need to be more mysterious and unavailable, and really need to increase my GAL. This little bread crumb felt good, but you're right. It was simply to make herself feel better. Back to radio silence, GAL, and self pro cements. If she calls again, I will be more careful and not get sucked in.
Hi Kramer,
I read the story you told Bob about your EX and your birthday. I don't feel so alone now.
Thanks for sharing. You never know who truly benefits from shared stories.
Well, as predicted by sandi, the high from my recent contact with STBX has worn off, and I find myself sliding a bit further into depression and melancholy. Prior to our recent talk last week, I had done a decent job of GAL, going dark, and was making strides on detachment. I tried not to read into things, and kept our conversation light, upbeat, and positive and did not mention specifics regarding relationship. As I mentioned earlier, she expressed sorrow for what she did, and was certainly sad. However, she did not express remorse or mention anything about trying to repair our relationship. I realize that what happened was her feeling sad and guilty, and needing a shoulder to cry on. Nothing more than that.
Since that interaction last week, there have been a few texts (superficial) from her. I have not responded to them right away and she has mentioned (more than once) that I need to be better and more timely with my texts. When I do respond, I am pleasant and light hearted, and usually close by telling her to have a good day. Her last text was at 10 pm last night telling me that she worked in Psych all day, and one of her patients threatened her with a knife. She obviously was not hurt, and she never told me about it when it happened earlier in the day, so I simply acknowledged that it must have been scary for her. I did also mention that she could have called and I would have responded, but that was probably not a good thing to do.
Here's my dilemma. We all like to think that our sitches are unique, although they probably are not. In my case, the woman I have known for 20 years is one that will never admit fault or make the first move when she is wrong. She is headstrong and proud, and would rather fall on her sword than admit that she was wrong about something. I'm wondering now if she is waiting for me to pursue her and fight for her love. I know that sounds crazy based on the fact that she had an affair, left me, and filed for divorce. However, in her mind, I had grown distant, uncaring, and did not show her the love and respect that I should have in the last year.
Am I completely nuts here? Is there any validity at all to my thinking process? Or is this just me being manipulated by her?
Hi Kramer
I feel the same way but I realize that all of my placating efforts of the past is what got me to the present. So, for me personally, I am changing my tune. I am so tired of having to cater to her and her "moods". And with this blatantly disrespectful affair, well that is just over the top definat. Again, for me personally, I don't even answer texts unless they are kid related. I am a busy lady with so much going on (right!).
It seems to me that she still has you hooked by telling you to respond quicker to her texts (jump through the hoops faster Kramer, you are too slow, who is she to dictate anything to you after her continued terrible and disrespctful behaviors). That's how it reads to me.
But again, what do I know, I am just another lady with a crazy MLC W who is thowing away me and our kids after 20 years for a creep.
Here's my dilemma. We all like to think that our sitches are unique, although they probably are not. In my case, the woman I have known for 20 years is one that will never admit fault or make the first move when she is wrong. She is headstrong and proud, and would rather fall on her sword than admit that she was wrong about something. I'm wondering now if she is waiting for me to pursue her and fight for her love. I know that sounds crazy based on the fact that she had an affair, left me, and filed for divorce. However, in her mind, I had grown distant, uncaring, and did not show her the love and respect that I should have in the last year.
Am I completely nuts here? Is there any validity at all to my thinking process? Or is this just me being manipulated by her?
My W is EXCACTLY the same way ... proud and stubborn, basically had that entitled vibe like the A was my fault.
I think it has to do with respect, in a sense the WAW loses respect for the LBH especially if we are the fixer-pursuer conflict avoiding types ... I was/am/still working on that. So one must like Sandi said become the somewhat aloof Football player, regain his own mojo ... trick here is you do not do this for her, you do it for yourself. She is controlling you a bit, telling you when you need to respond, sharing the knife story well after it happened ... to get a response out of you .. she has placed you in a spot, expects you to always be there as she does her thing .... once she feels you starting to move without her permission she will temp check you to see where you are ... do things to put you back. I noticed a difference when my W knew I was no longer in that corner, I was in fact moving on ... she for the first time was scared to lose me. My M is far from fixed .. but those things changed the sitch
Stop being so available, she will continue to test to see if the changes you have made are real, and to make sure you are where she left you.
I feel the need to provide a little more information regarding my last comments. Please understand that I am not saying that my wife is not trying to control me or make sure I am still there. However, to be fair, she has told me for years that I am a poor texter. I only look at my phone occasionally during the day and always have it on vibrate only. I am not one of those types that is tethered to their phone and responds immediately when somebody texts or calls. I have been this way for years, and she always joked about it.
Having known her for 20 years, I also think I know her nuances and language. Up until recently, her responses and messages were clipped and short, with angry undertones. Lately, her responses have been more cordial and thankful. For instance, when I told her to call me next time, she said "Aww, that's so sweet". When she was having her breakdown, and I made arrangements to meet with her, she said the same thing and was thankful. She reciprocates my wishes to have a good day. All of these behabiors are vast improvements from the last 5 months.
Having said all that, I don't think it really changes how I should respond moving forward. It does give me second thoughts and doubts, though.
The real ironic/sad/frustrating thing here is that it almost seems like we are both digging our heels in, and waiting for the other person to flinch and make the first move. Instead of just communicating our needs and wishes with each other, we continue along parrallel paths on the way to divorce and the end of our relationship.
Some more thoughts...
My wife, as I mentioned earlier, is very stubborn. I'm sure that some of her actions are her attempt to prove to herself that she can handle all of the things that I did when we were together. For instance, I did the cooking, most of the housework, bill paying, and planned all of our trips. I also did the planning and menus for our large family get togethers and holidays. I bought gifts and cards for everybody and she would then sign them. At the time, she was quite happy having me do all this, because she did not like to do it. I truly enjoyed doing all of this, as long as it was appreciated. At the end, I grew more resentful and unappreciated, which caused friction and the affair/divorce groundwork was laid.
The reason I bring this up is because all of those actions that she liked me to do are now described as controlling. I wonder if she is making a point to prove to me that she can do things better than me, and if that attitude puts up unscaleable walls between us. She has mentioned on numerous occasions that she hates to do all of those things, but Kramer is out of the picture now.
I'm not sure what to make of all this, or even if any of it really even matters at this stage. The ironic thing is that she is spending less time with OM now that we have separated, and she seems more flustered and chaotic.
Kramer
Your w knows how you feel right? She knows you want her back more than anything right? She knows how to reach you and she chose to have the affair and refuses to end it right? That about says it all.
My w is the exact same - she is entitled and treats me poorly and feels justified in doing what she wants to do - no regrets is her tag line. She used that line on me when we were dating 20 years ago. She has used it again for this A - barf and unoriginal.
The fact of the matter is that for whatever reason that we may never truly understand they threw us and the family away. It blows but what choice do we have in the matter - none except to learn and grow from the experience.
What have you been doing for you my friend??
Heavys right, Kramer. She knows you're there and from everything Sandi and others say, that will never change unless she feels loss and questions whether or not you are, a 180 from where it is now.
Right now you being there and even lightly reassuring her hasn't changed her decision for the affair and possibly divorce, so to continue down that action or even pursue more might be more of the same.
I thought my ww was just how you described yours, proud and stubborn. However, she is not herself right now and clearly with the affair, if she wants something she'll make it known.
If she can risk everything you had for that, you don't think she'd risk her pride to tell you she felt differently if that ever was the case?
WTF is wrong with me? I can look at my situation objectively, and know that it is imperative for me to detach, go dark, GAL, and move forward with my life. I know deep down that my wife is temp checking and trying to place me in the friend zone, and yet I keep slipping up. She says that het OM only wants to be friends, and has called her boring and predictable, but I still have no evidence that the affair is over. I am assuming that she may have had an argument or disagreement with him, and that is why she is contacting me more frequently.
And then the other part of my brain says "Wait a second, Kramer. Your wife is being nice and perhaps she is starting to miss you. You don't want to pass up this opportunity". Keep in mind that she has not given any indication that she has had an epiphany and wants to reconcile. That is all made up in my mind.
Latest example: She texts me this morning from the gym and tells me about one of our aquaintances being on "my machine" and that her mother woke her up at 0400 with a rat in the house. I should have just ignored them, but of course I didn't. I made small talk and acted like we were friends. Ugh.
I don't want to be her friend. I want to be her husband. And yet, I keep screwing up. Aargh!
Give yourself grace, Kramer. You are going through one of the toughest things anyone can experience. Although we can tell you there are better ways to do things, it doesn't always mean they are right, based on your sitch.
For me too, it's easier to give advice to others, I have no emotional connection to and say "you should do this". When the same thing happens to my sitch and I get similar advice, I question and say "yeah, but . . ."
The "yeah buts" will get you every time. Trust your own advice you'd give to others, take a deep breath and let the process work. You've already seen some progress.
Kramer
Don't beat yourself up. Rip is right. You are a good and decent man who is trying to do the right thing. You are seeing a lot of progress, she is contacting you and talking to you in a positive way, those are steps forward.
However, she is still involved with her OM, therefore you can't be a friend or sounding board. Personally I would ignore those texts and/or emails. Let her miss the capabale and caring Kramer that she depended upon and loved for 17 years, that's a long time.
Do you want to be a friend or husband? She is divorcing you and has made it clear she is with the OM and continues to be his friend/lover.
Stand firm and continue to DB.
That is my .02 cents - choose to ignore if you want to.
HeavyD
And then the other part of my brain says "Wait a second, Kramer. Your wife is being nice and perhaps she is starting to miss you. You don't want to pass up this opportunity".
An opportunity to do what?
We all want to jump at the first little glimmers of change but we have to continue what is working.
And then the other part of my brain says "Wait a second, Kramer. Your wife is being nice and perhaps she is starting to miss you. You don't want to pass up this opportunity".
An opportunity to do what?
To show the fun, spontaneous, and loving person that I was for most of our marriage. To show her that I am not the pessimistic, angry, controlling, and miserable person that I became. To show her what a new R with me could be like.
What she did was reprehensible, selfish, destructive, and downright mean. However, the way I treated her the previous 6 months was horrible, too.
Kramer - don't you have the same opportunity to show that in every interaction you have? Look good, smell good, be positive, etc.
Isn't that part of the LRT/Going Dark techniques? The key in those though is consistency and time for her to trust it. Then, hopefully she starts pursuing you and you'll know she is. Not just general niceities.
Also, in doing it that way, you aren't pursuing. At least that's how I understood the concept.
Krammer's Quote:
And then the other part of my brain says "Wait a second, Kramer. Your wife is being nice and perhaps she is starting to miss you. You don't want to pass up this opportunity".
Sandi:
An opportunity to do what?
Krammer:
To show the fun, spontaneous, and loving person that I was for most of our marriage. To show her that I am not the pessimistic, angry, controlling, and miserable person that I became. To show her what a new R with me could be like. Previously quoted by Krammer:
Keep in mind that she has not given any indication that she has had an epiphany and wants to reconcile. That is all made up in my mind.Are you suggesting that while trying to detach, you have shown her you were still a pessimistic, angry, controlling, and miserable person? If that is what she is seeing
now, you aren't detaching correctly. However, I will bet this is more your emotions speaking.
She's been a little nicer, you think. The male in you says to jump on it. Right? Guess what? Female LBS do the same thing!
The trick is being able to stay away from those old negative traits you had, which is usually harder around those closest to us. Practice, practice, and practice with other people every day. Instead of thinking how badly you want to show her how a new R with you would be great (b/c that takes longer than a quickie opportunity) and think of each day as a new challenge. The more realistic opportunities may come in teaspoon sizes, instead of truck loads, especially right now. Those teaspoon sizes can add up.
One thing about using opportunities, is that you gain her respect. At this point, that is more important than just trying to show how wonderful you are. Know what I mean? Without her
respect, you could be a terrific guy and she still wouldn't desire you. First things first.
Kramer - don't you have the same opportunity to show that in every interaction you have? Look good, smell good, be positive, etc.
Isn't that part of the LRT/Going Dark techniques? The key in those though is consistency and time for her to trust it. Then, hopefully she starts pursuing you and you'll know she is. Not just general niceities.
Also, in doing it that way, you aren't pursuing. At least that's how I understood the concept.
And that's the point I'm trying to make. We have no kids together. She lives in a separate household across town. We work at different sites and we don't see each other at all. The emails and texts are the only interactions we have. I don't have the opportunity to show her my improvements, other than through these communiques.
sandi,
I have completely changed my attitude and behavior since the day that she gave me the ILYBINILWY speech on 12/15/2014. Up until that point, I had grown resentful, angry, and felt disrespected. Of course, I eventually found out that she was already involved in her affair since September, which caused her to put walls up and our interactions got worse.
I have made wholesale changes in every facet of my life since 12/15/2014, and that has continued even after she filed for divorce on Jan 9 and moved out at beginning of March. I am going to IC, have a PMA, and have spent more time reconnecting with her adult children. I have only seen her twice in the last 2 months, and was pleasant, upbeat, and respectful during both interactions.
How can I gain her respect if we never see each other or have the opportunity to interact?
OK, I feel like I fell asleep 6 months ago and woke up in Bizarro World. It was bad enough finding out about my wife’s affair and her filing for divorce and moving out, but the events of the last week are rocking my world.
As you know, she contacted me last week in tears and we spent about 3 hours talking about the affair and what has transpired. She was sorry but did not express remorse or a desire to reconcile. She told me that her OM only wanted to be friends. That story was confirmed by her kids last night. Apparently when she went home from our meetup last week, she cried to them and said the same story.
Since that time, she has been sending me random, superficial texts. Against better judgment, I have been participating and responding in kind. They have all been just friendly and funny things without any substance.
Last night, all of her kids came over for Taco Tuesday, which is something I have been doing with them since the split. As usual, we had a great time together. I sent food home with them, and told them to share it with their mother. Taco Tuesday was always a family event with us over the years. They told me that she wasn’t home, and I assume she is with OM.
I should have left things alone, but of course I sent her a text last night telling her that I sent food home for her, but she wasn’t there. She responded and said thanks, and that she made other plans because all of the kids were with me. She then said she was going to show up next week for Taco Tuesday, followed quickly with another text asking what I would think if she snuck in to my house to see me. I was taken aback, to say the least. I thought she was joking, so I said “Sure, I’ll play along”. Her next message was for me to leave my bedroom door unlocked and she would be by later tonight.
Nearly every part of me screams out that this is NOT a good idea. I don’t know what to make of this, or what it means in the short/long run. Am I now going to become the OM to her OM? Is this her way of getting her foot in the door for possible reconciliation? Is she just playing games with me? Perhaps it was just her drunk texting.
More to come later, I’m sure.
Am I now going to become the OM to her OM?
That has been known to happen before.
NOT what you want!
Am I now going to become the OM to her OM?
That has been known to happen before.
NOT what you want!
Isn't that what DBing is all about...re-attracting the spouse, right? So I've told Train to become the OW to her H's XOW. It is just the way it is sometimes.
Labels notwithstanding.....
OK - So now I am confused.
What is the advice from the board on this one? Go with the flow, let the W sneak back in and rekindle a relationship with Kramer? Wonka, are you advocating for Kramer that this is in his best interest? If so, why? I am assuming that this is for sex. Is that what everyone else thinks too? Is it just to talk? I'm seriously confused.
Kramer is that what you want? Does it feel right to you? I guess ultimately you decide what is best for you. What do you want to do?
I will follow this situation closely.
Heavy,
I am not saying that Kramer should sleep with his W. I would put a stop to it and say gently that it was not the right time. Should go slow.
Ok - tha makes sense, as far as the sex goes, I was thinking in my head - don't do it. Personally, I think it is a good step towards reconnecting, but doesn't alot more committment to the Marriage need to occur? Doesn't a comittment to end it with OM and a transparency plan need to occur?
But, what would to have that situation happen to me from my W (sigh).
I agree that sex is not a good idea. My plan, if she even shows up, is to just be friendly, open, and enjoy the moment. I'm open to hugging and snuggling, but no R talk at this stage.
That would be my plan too.
Good luck Kramer. I will keep you in my prayers that this is a step in the right direction for you. The right direction meaning, I hope she is missing you and realizing the OM can't hold a candle to you.
That's the right direction and amazing on how quickly this has come. Similar to what Sandi has talked about - not reacting or moving forward to quickly either.
Good luck!
Here is a copy of the text exchange from last night:
Me: Sent home taco Tuesday for you but I'm told you made other plans.
W: Thank you. Not trying to poison me are you ? S17 said nobody was home tonight. They picked u
Me: Because you weren't there.
W: Not true. S17 texted me at 2pm to tell me.
W: I'm gonna show up next Tuesday for taco Tuesday- not gonna compete ! 😜
W: What if I snuck in and surprised u ?!
Me: It would be awesome.
W:You don't have any weapons besides Poms do u ?
W: Leave your bedroom door unlocked tomorrow
Me: Ok, I'll play along.
W: Goodnight
Me:What time tomorrow?
W: That would ruin the surprise now wouldn't it?
W: Late...
Me: Gotcha. I'm intrigued.
Revised Addition:
Here is a copy of the text exchange from last night:
Me:
Sent home taco Tuesday for you but I'm told you made other plans. You don't contact her to tell her you sent tacos her way (after buttering up her kids) and then found out she wasn't home....and so now you are checking up to see if she's with OM. How obvious can you be?!W: Thank you. Not trying to poison me are you ? S17 said nobody was home tonight. They picked u
Notice she did not volunteer to tell you her whereabouts.Me: Because you weren't there. Really Krammer? You are still picking to find out where she was...and telling her you know she wasn't home. This is a big red no-no! W: Not true. S17 texted me at 2pm to tell me.
W: I'm gonna show up next Tuesday for taco Tuesday- not gonna compete ! 😜
W: What if I snuck in and surprised u ?!
Me:
It would be awesome. Softly chuckles and says,
"If you were to sneak in, you might be the one in for a surprise"[/i].W:You don't have any weapons besides Poms do u ?
W: Leave your bedroom door unlocked tomorrow
Me:
Ok, I'll play along. Teasingly says,
"Who said I was going to be home tomorrow night?"W: Goodnight
Me:
What time tomorrow? OMG! You didn't say that?W: That would ruin the surprise now wouldn't it?
W: Late...
Me:
Gotcha. I'm intrigued. 
Seriously? Krammer, you should be the one intriguing
her!
So here I was patting myself on the back that my wife is interested and making baby steps at having interactions and communication with me, and it looks like u screwed things up again. Am I sacrificing long term gains with this most recent exchange? What should I do then? Tell her to forget about it? Make alternate plans?
Or should I use the opportunity to just remain cool and aloof, and play hard to get in the future. What's done is done. Any silver lining here?
You have not screwed anyting up, don't beat yourself up.
I would play it cool and casual and see what happens. If nothing else, you could use it as an opportunity for her to talk and for you to listen. I would validate and be respectful and polite. Who knows what she may tell you?
I would not play "hard to get" as that feels artificial, but clearly your DBing efforts are working and she is very interested in you.
For me - the elements of reconection include:
Has the affair ended? Does she want to work on the marriage with you? Does she ask for forgiveness for her recent behaviors? Will she go to marital counseling with you?
Fingers crossed the conversation goes well.
Again, I am no expert, but these are just my thoughts.
Heavy D
Kramer, she's not making baby steps......she's playing games. She has just been rejected by OM and you don't even know where she was the other night, b/c she ain't telling. Suddenly, she starts teasing about slipping in the back door at night? That is not progress, guys!
What should you do? Keep you door locked!
Do not contact her about it, do not make any reference to what she said. Do NOT ask her any more questions! Never let her know you took her game seriously.
As far as you are concerned, it was all just a joke and you never thought she meant it.
(P.S. Thank you, Wonka.)
OK, I am going to post my latest interaction with my wife, and welcome any input, both good and bad. Please keep in mind that I am here because I want to save my marriage. I value everybody’s input, and try to do what I feel is best under my specific circumstances. Just because I do not adhere to advice does not mean that I do not value that advice. It simply means that I may have been too scared, too hardheaded, too proud, or didn’t plan things out well enough. Trust me, I am very receptive to advice, especially from those who have gone through things and came out on top. I will get this. Please continue to work with me. Call me out when I screw up. Be direct, but constructive. You don’t have to sugarcoat things, either. Just keep working with me. Please.
Sandi, before I even relate my story, I will be up front and tell you that I received your latest advice too late. I did leave my door unlocked, and my wife did come by. I see why you said what you did, and I am hoping you can give me your perspective and further advice with the knowledge that I did have an interaction with my wife.
As I stated, my wife came by early this morning. She came into my room, and asked if she could lie down next to me. We were both fully clothed. She backed up into me and we cuddled for a while and didn’t say anything. After a few moments, she asked if it would be more comfortable with our clothes off, and started to kiss me. I told her “Yes, and no”. Let’s just cut to the chase, and say that yes won out. I know, I’m weak. What can I say? It’s been 8 months. I’m going to give some details, because I think they may be relevant. She was very responsive. She insisted on kissing and holding. She and I were BOTH satisfied. Trust me on this, I know the physiologic signs…it wasn’t faked. Afterwards we fell asleep in each other’s arms for about an hour. She made it a point to place my hand over her breast and snuggled close to me, just like old times. Round 2 took place with similar results.
At this point, I went to the kitchen and got coffee and we talked. She asked me what I meant earlier when I said “yes and no”. I explained to her that while I was willing to enjoy the moment with her, I was conflicted because it likely meant something different to me than it did to her. She cried when I said this. I asked her about what just happened and why she came over, and she said that she wanted to see if it was awkward. I asked her if it was awkward and she said “No. Actually it feels like we just hit the pause button and things felt just the same as when we were together”. I agreed with her. She apologized again for making a mess of things and having affair. She said that I had been miserable for so long, and I acknowledged that. I told her that if there was a silver lining, it was that these events have allowed me to see my fallacies and work on self improvement and self love, and to come to the realization that happiness comes from within.
She again asked why and how I could still love her after what she did. I told her that my marriage vows meant more to me than her, apparently. More tears.
She asked if I was happy because she was gone. I gave her an analogy of a person who loses his sight in adulthood. He adapts and hones his other senses and is able to make his way in the world, but he always misses his vision because he knew what it felt like. I explained to her that although I am able to make my way in the world, there is still a hole where our love used to be. She seemed to grasp the analogy and started crying again. We talked about family things and day to day life. She took a shower, got dressed, hugged some more, and then left.
Some observations:
She made it a point to wear clothing that I had bought for her when she came over, as well as the perfume that I had given her. She was also wearing her ring, which she has not been doing.
She made it a point to look over my house as she was leaving. This is the first time she has been in the house since we split. I have replaced all of the furniture that she took, and I am an excellent housekeeper. The house looks good. She almost seemed to be taken aback that I wasn’t living out of boxes and folding card tables. I do wonder if she felt that I didn’t need her anymore.
We did not talk about the elephant in the room, namely her (likely ongoing) affair, as well as what her thoughts are on our relationship.
So there you have it, and all the sordid details. I’m sure I messed up on multiple levels, but it is what it is. I don’t know what happens next, but if I’m being honest, I enjoyed the moment. The last 6 months of our relationship were so bad and loveless, and if nothing else, I will have the memory of making love to my wife one last time. I also realize that I am still desireable. My self esteem had taken a huge hit when we split. Was it a game on her part? Perhaps, but keep in mind that she approached me, not the other way around.
My plans for the next few days are to get away. My sister has a place in Tahoe, and I will head up there Friday after work. I talked to my wife this morning and thanked her for coming over, and told her that she was just as beautiful and sexy and exciting as I remembered. I will leave it at that for the time being. Will anything come of this? Probably not. I do realize that I don’t want to be a booty call or friend with benefits if she stays with OM. But now I can make that call on my own terms.
Fire away.
Kramer-im glad you feel good about yourself, especially after these past six months. it seems like its a good thing, but i have a feeling based on what i have read, that it mightve not been a good idea to do that but I am wondering what the vets think about this?
I don't disagree with you, nick. It was definitely NOT a good idea, but it happened nonetheless. What I am hoping for now is some advice as to what next...
Hi Kramer, I read your post above and thought - uh o - bad idea...
Just because OM is still on the scene somewhere and your W doesn't sound as though she has woken up. Yes, you may have enjoyed it - but do you really want to become OM to her OM?
I think the part of you that is all happy is the part that has craved the closeness that has been missing recently. But IMHO, there's a price to pay for that. And the price is that you become part of the infidelity web again. In my sitch, I said to my H - that web - that's not for me and that's not what I want in my life. I wont be part of it. And I don't regret that. For sure enough contact with OW has lingered on and off and on and off.....for many months now. And to be part of that is just painful.
As to what next? Well, I would place your expectations at zero, wait for the pull back and carry on DBing...
Kramer-
IMHO, I think that your W is cake eating. For some women, cake eating could be spending time together, going to events together, or having sex with LBH. Believe it or not, but women can have sex without having feelings for someone according to some WAW on here. From what i have read about WAW and their stories, WAW sexual drive increases when they have an A. The physical need is what she is after.
as for what to do next.....dont put too much into what happened. W could be using you or setting you up. These are just my thoughts and im sure others will disagree. IMO, there is nothing you can do, but just act as if it didnt happen. Next time W ask anything of this sort, just say "No thanks."
Nick
I don't disagree with you, nick. It was definitely NOT a good idea, but it happened nonetheless. What I am hoping for now is some advice as to what next...
Ok .. 2x4 time
Thing is Kramer .. you have been here what .. 5 months .. you should and I think do know better, you know what happened was not good, but you caved and went after your needs regardless. So now your W knows .. because you have shown her ... I can have my A, do as I wish ... flirt a touch with my LBH ... sex if I must .. just to make sure he is where I left him, now I can go back and patch things up with OM and continue this .... its a big set back from where I sit.
As far as what to do next ... ok what is done is done right?
First off ... call and get a STD screening done ... think about it. You now have had sex with OM and everyone he has been with ... that should upset you a bit.
Second .. I would think its time for some mirror talk.. what do you want out of this, save the M? You may have to really set some boundaries with your WAW because she seems to be getting what she wants and needs at your expense.
Third ... I'd go dark, let her know that that night was a mistake, has brought up some issues and feelings and you need to figure out what YOU want out of life, your M, and start planning for YOUR future. Of she would like to be a part of that .. great ... but there needs to be some ground rules.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but my perspective is that this was nothing more than a booty call, and nothing less than a temp check. Hope that doesn't make you feel cheap. Maybe someone can learn from it.
She should have felt cheap slipping in the back door of your house, but I'm sure to her it was somewhat exciting, b/c that is not how married people act, right? It is acting more like people who are slipping around and having an affair.
I hope you can connect the dots here. Affairs are addictive. It often jump-starts a woman's sex drive. If OM has really stopped having sex with her, then she was probably about ready to find an unlocked door somewhere, and what better place than her H's house?
Now granted, I don't really believe the majority of WW's want to have sex with their H, but some gals are just higher drive than others and it makes little difference to them.
I’m going to give some details, because I think they may be relevant.
You know when you told her it meant something different to you than it did her? I find it amazing how a man can talk about how defenseless he is when he's been without sex a long time, but then he seems to think if a woman is obviously sexually excited, it must be b/c she's experiencing those loving feelings for him.
Some WW's find it very stimulating to know she can sexually manipulate a man, even if it is her plan B. They can really get into it, when there is purpose. Call me suspicious, but from what I have learned over the years, whenever a WW suddenly shows up to entice the LBH into having sex with her, you can expect a motive behind it.
It makes no difference what she was wearing. That was not some message she was giving you. (However, I am reading her clearly, I think.) Don't you know that was all planned? She knew you would want it to have "meaning" b/c she wore what you bought for her. And she even wore her ring. In fact, everything you described seems so obvious as to a setup. As I have said, you men are just too easy. If there should be a next time, please try to at least be a little more challenging for her.
I went to the kitchen and got coffee and we talked.
Maybe she said more than what you told us, but from your post it sounds as though you did most of the talking. IMO, the LBH should not have a lot to say about the R on these matters, until she lets him know she is willing to work and save the M As long as she is connected to OM, she doesn't need to know H's innermost feelings.
The fact she cried does not necessarily mean anything, other than she is sorry she is
still unhappy. Remember she's been rejected by her lover. I can understand how men want to place a certain emotional value in a woman's tears, but a WW's emotions are like a roller coaster. It doesn't take much for her to cry. In most cases, her tears are for
herself.
I asked her about what just happened and why she came over, and she said that she wanted to see if it was awkward. I asked her if it was awkward and she said “No. Actually it feels like we just hit the pause button and things felt just the same as when we were together”. I agreed with her.
Okay, you wanted to hear her tell you what this was really about. You had already observed what she was wearing and every move she made, so you were hoping it meant what you wanted it to be. I get it. But look at her answer, especially the last part. You agreed with her, but are you saying that this was like the R when she started having an A? Or, are you saying that at one time, the sex was good between you? Do you feel like this has just a pause in the M and can go back to how it use to be?
It's not at all unusual, based on people's reports, for a WW to want a test drive to see if the sex feels
awkward (in fact, that is the very word they use, "awkward"). And from what she said, it seems she
was taking a test drive.
She apologized again for making a mess of things and having affair.
Can you remember more specifically what she said about being sorry for the affair? And was she talking about you were unhappy or herself?
My question is, would she be sorry if the OM had not rejected her? Something you need to think about.
She again asked why and how I could still love her after what she did.
Most of what she has said to you has been WW script. This last quote has been said by countless numbers of WW's, but it was not them asking to come back to the M. It is temp checking. I think the who thing was temp checking, b/c she wanted to see if you were still her backup plan. You played right into her hands.
My advice is to nothing. I mean nothing! No initiating contacts. No more playing this game of connecting to her through her kids (nor keeping track of her through them), no questions, and no pursuing whatsoever.
If you really want this woman to be interested, you had better step back, and put her in the position of chasing you. You will find out if she is serious or not.
She has to go further than just being sorry for the affair (if she really is). She needs to feel true remorse for the pain she has caused you and for betraying her vows. It needs to go deeper than just her being sorry she made a mess of everything (which is another WW script). I am serious about these scripts. If they didn't use the same sentences, word by word, I could disagree.
Toots,
Thanks for replying. I agree that it was not a good idea. I did it for me and it did feel good. I realize that there is a good chance that things are truly over between us. I know that she was temp checking and do not for a minute think that our little tryst was anything other than sex. I also agree that I do not want to perpetuate the infidelity game. This was my opportunity to take back some of the control that she took when she left me. I am not going to become a groveling doormat just because we had sex. I did it for me so that I felt good.
Now back to DB and non pursuit. She knows where to find me if she is interested.
Nick,
Thanks for your reply. It definitely was cake eating. However, I was also cake eating with her. The way I see it is that she came to my place, and I did not initiate it. She had to take the "walk of shame" after it was over. She snuck into my house through the backyard. I do not think it was anything more than it was. Sex. She knows what I bring to the table. The next move is up to her, and it will require a hell of a lot more than this.
CaliGuy,
Thanks for your reply. I'm ok with 2x4s. You are right. I was fulfilling my needs. The last 6 months of our relationship were not good. There was so much distance and conflict, and very little intimacy. It has been even worse since January when she filed divorce and we separated. When she came on to me, I saw it as an opportunity to fulfill my needs. Not for one minute do I believe she has had an epiphany and is ready to reconcile. That may or may not happen.
I want my marriage to survive and thrive. I am not going to continue this dynamic. She may think that she has me wrapped around her little finger, but that is not the case. I am going back to dark and LRT. She knows where to find me. And she won't find me waiting for bread crumbs. I got what I needed to continue my journey forward. I know now that I am still desirable and will be a great catch for somebody. Hopefully her, but that depends on her.
Oh, and protection. Just sayin.
Kramer ... yeah ... I get it and I am not saying I would not have 'fallen' either if my W ever did the same.
And yeah with amount of offspring you have produced ya might wanna double bag it up .... just sayin
So now ... look big picture ... and focus on DBing ... all of it .. not just one part here and there when it suits you. You can do this .. you need to in order to flip the table.
Sandi,
Again, thank you for your detailed responses and interest in my situation. It may not seem like it, but I sincerely value your input and perspective.
Let's just get this on the table: I know this was nothing more than a booty call. I knew what her thoughts were when she originally texted me. I also know that her attire was all part of the plan. It may not seem like it because of some of my actions, but I'm a smart guy. I had no doubt of her intent.
I still don't know the motive, but it's not really the point. I think she is spinning and out of control. I don't think that her affair is over, but definitely cracks in the facade. I think that she is feeling overwhelmed by the results of her actions. She is a 46 year old woman that is now supporting herself and Agee adult children and new grandchild. Her OM has put the brakes on her fairy tale, at least for the moment. She is having to handle all of the stresses that I took care of in the marriage when we were together. Oh, and let's not forget that there are upcoming deadlines brought on by her filing for divorce. AND she will likely lose half of her 401k and pension.
I certainly don't think that this interaction was based on love on her part. It was sex. I get that. I accept that. I agree with that. I'm ok with that. Because I was able to portray to her that it meant something different to ME, not HER. That makes me a better person.
It's hard to put down in words, but I will try. This is something that I needed for some semblance of closure. I didn't want to go through life with such horrible memories of the last few months of our relationship. I realize that in her mind, she was likely fulfilling a need and using me. But, to be honest, I also needed to fill a need. Not just a need for sex and companionship, but also as a sense of redemption and desire ability. The whole affair and divorce filing completely blindsided me and shattered my self confidence. In a weird sort of way, this interaction fed my ego and satisfied my needs. And if we don't make it, I at least have a good memory of our final time together.
Having said all that, I also realize that I need to buckle down and DB my heart out from here on. My wife may never be able to do the hard work necessary to reconcile. That's on her. As for me, I will continue to work on self improvement and myself. The thing is, I now know that I will be alright either way this pans out. I will not give up on my wife and our marriage, but at least now I don't feel so lost, helpless, lonely, and afraid.
Looks as if you received several posts while I was typing out mine. Not sure when you changed your tune, b/c it sounds different from your post describing that night. I hope for your sake you can detach, Krammer.
Hope you have a great weekend get-a-way.
Hey, here's the newest update. My wife just called me again, in tears again. She was on her way home and apparently had a very stressful day. I was busy completing charts, but listened patiently as she was hysterically crying. She said that she was so discombobulated. She told me that she missed her house, her dogs, her husband, and her family. She said that she was so sad and upset about everything that has happened. I simply listened and agreed that her voice sounded sad. She wondered if I was on my way home, but I told her I was still at work. I think that she was expecting me to tell her to come over. Instead, I told her she should go home and take a nap. I told her that I had to finish my charts, and then I hung up.
Better?
Oh yes, much better.
She is feeling more reality about the mess she has caused. I think she was priming you the other night. She is still following a pattern or script of many WW's, by crying, saying she is sorry and misses her former life. But like you said, she is going all around what she
should be saying...in hopes you will be the one to ask
her to come back and tell her all is forgiven and can just pick up as though nothing happened. Then she has the option of more back & forth stuff.
I really hope you will follow through on your weekend plans. Do not tell her details about your plans, and do not invite her! All she needs to know is that you have made plans (if she puts you in the situation of having to tell her). This is your chance to be mysterious.
This time slot is a little tricky, but it's very important. You don't want to volunteer too much about how you feel or what you want, at the moment, b/c she needs to wonder if you want her back or has she pushed you too far. While doing this, don't sound like a ice cycle or come across as a jerk. Neither should you spread too much "butter" on her, or it will turn her off. If this is the real deal, then she's at a critical point and it could go either way. Just do not pursue her! If you act too eager to reconcile, she'll pull away. Remember, you want her to chase you, and preferably more than one time. This is the time to play hard to get (even if you are wanting her back again). So, you really have to stay balanced and focused, instead of going by your feelings.
If the timing is right, and you play it cool, she should eventually be ready to ask you if you still want to save or work on the M. That is when you tell her, "
things are not that simple now". (This is an important message to relay by saying these exact words underlined, at the right time.) You are not saying you don't want to save the M, plus it places focus on the fact that things won't be that easily fixed.
Hopefully, she will be serious enough to ask you to explain what you mean, or she will tell you that she's willing to do whatever it takes. You cannot say it for her! You cannot ask her if she will do whatever it takes. Don't put words in her mouth and don't push her. Take your time and don't rush the process here.
You see, when the WW's life starts falling apart, she will want to return home (she misses her dogs, family, home, and....oh yeah, her H). It's natural to want to go back home when your fantasy falls apart, and that is what the A was all about. She's hurt, rejected, unhappy, and wants to tuck her tail and go back to her home to lick her wounds (and whatever home includes, dogs, H, etc.) I really like it when the WW does this ^ and names the animals first on her list.
If you were to take her back today, she wouldn't be ready. She would not do the work that will be needed to heal the MR. At the moment, she's feeling sorry for her situation. She wants to just say enough to entice you to open the door and say, "Come on".
If she does not go through the process that's needed, and you let her come back too easily, she will turn this back on you and will be right back where it was when she betrayed you.
She may not use the word "remorseful", but she has to
feel it....for her sake, as well as the MR.
The weekend the sh't hit the fan at my house, I told my H something similar to being sorry he got hurt. If you can imagine a wayward woman saying those words as cold as ice. That was months before I made the decision to end my A. It took a longer time for me to actually feel remorseful for my behavior/actions and the terrible pain/destruction I had caused. It took even longer for me to go to my H with my broken pride and and try to tell him between my hard sobs how sorry I was for what I had done to him.....and to
us. Pride? You 'betcha!! I had a lot of stubborn pride.
Have you thought about what would be necessary to get the M back on track again? Have you read about the transparency plan? I talked a little about this in one of my threads when I was discussing not letting the WW come back too easily.
Sandi,
More and more I believe in the script as you describe it. I had a WAH, no affair (just high hopes for a better version of a companion) - and like you said, the dog was the first thing he said he missed! I did all of the work and he came back too soon riding my efforts. I got burned badly for it. I wish this on no one.
When someone wants to be with you, they'll find a way.
When they don't, well...they'll find a way for that too.
And I think when they're confused and mixed up, it's best to back off, DR for a best chance, and let the truth surface one way or the other - it will eventually.
W just texted me again. She had shared with me earlier that her OM's youngest child had a birthday this weekend and that she was probably going to go, although it would likely be awkward because he had already told her that he didn't want a serious relationship with her. She just told me that she is no longer going to see OM this weekend. I don't know if she ended it or if he did, nor do I know if it's temporary or permanent. And yes, sandi, she made it known that she would like to go to dinner tonight.
Are you clairvoyant?
Have you thought about what would be necessary to get the M back on track again? Have you read about the transparency plan? I talked a little about this in one of my threads when I was discussing not letting the WW come back too easily.
Yes, I have. She needs to acknowledge the pain that she caused. Not only to me, but my kids, her kids, and the grandchildren. Counseling is a must. Definitely MC and I would hope IC, although that has to come from her. Divorce proceedings must be halted. I would advocate continuing to live separately for a period of time, until we see how things are going. Finally, trust. Transparency would be essential, as would the necessity of not throwing it back in her face. It would take a lot of work. I realize that if these steps are not taken, there is a high likelihood that we are right back at this juncture in the future.
I'm willing to put in the hard work required. It remains to be seen if she is.
Kramer, I just worry if it hadn't been for the jilting from OM...IDK, this seems like a reactionary thing.
I truly, truly hope for the best, and that your W doesn't want to go to dinner bc your emotional comfort and even keel is salve for her own self inflicted instability and emotional wounds right now.
You've heard people talk about pull back in these situations. Human nature, we want what we think we want until we have it, and then react against it. Be careful, please. Your W may be like a bungee cord jumper, it'll take a bit before her own internal yoyo settles perhaps?
You've done well to this point, I'm sure you've got this. Rooting for you.
Zelda,
I've thought about this a lot. You wonder if her change of heart was precipitated by OM jilting her. Of course it is. The ONLY way we EVER stood a chance is for the affair to end. That could only happen if he jilts her or she has an epiphany and ends it. Looks like he ended it in this instance.
And because of that, she is wounded, afraid, and full of chaos. She most definitely is reaching out to me because of familiararity, and perhaps some remnants of love. Who knows? But she is also making strides to break away from OM, as evidenced by her canceling weekend plans to spend with him and his family.
Is this something permanent? Who knows? But it appears to be a start.
I need to back off and be somewhat unavailable now. I don't want to slam the door in her face, but I don't want to allow her to waltz in and avoid the repercussions for all the pain that she has caused.
I need to back off and be somewhat unavailable now. I don't want to slam the door in her face, but I don't want to allow her to waltz in and avoid the repercussions for all the pain that she has caused.
Hello Kramer,
Well said! Thats's the exact way you need to be. It may be like walking a tightrope but I believe in you. You are a smart guy and can do it.
Good luck!
Your buddy,
Bob
The only requirement I have for the immediate future is OM gone. I realize that she needs time to grieve the loss of that relationship. I also realize that in order for us to have any chance, that things need to move slowly.
I need to find some way to portray that I will stand and fight for my M, but am not willing to sweep everything under the rug. Her actions caused so much pain and destruction, and as cautiously optimistic as I am, I am also very guarded. She hurt me deeply. Worse than anyone ever has. I don't know if I could take further deceit on her part.
I did tell her that she needs to figure out what she wants. We'll see how she responds.
And I've thought this out. There's a good chance that even if she decides she wants to try reconciliation, that the damage may be too great. I'm ok with trying and failing. All I ever wanted was that chance.
And yes, sandi, she made it known that she would like to go to dinner tonight.
Are you clairvoyant?
.
No, just familiar with the script.
Still keeping your weekend plans, I hope.
What you've listed as part of the piecing plan is good.
She needs to acknowledge the pain that she caused. Not only to me, but my kids, her kids, and the grandchildren.
.
Her remorse is extremely important. IMO, when she gets over herself, and truly feels remorseful for what she has done to you and the M, her kids and grandkids will come under that umbrella. Whether she acknowledges them name at thtissue time as "you", IDK. It is more important that she acknowledges
you, and she may include the family. Am I making sense? She may be very broken hearted at what she's done to you,
so let her recognize that part, before you start going down the list with her.
.
Right now, she may be in the first stages of remorse, b/c she has started experiencing some of the fallout of the A (maybe), and she has said she's sorry for the mess. But I still think it's more her feeling sorry for herself, ATM. She is trying to say only the
minimum things she believes will get her back in her home again. That is why I continue to tell you to be very cautious and don't jump the gun. Make her work for it.
Speaking of the hurt she's caused her kids and GK, she will have to mend those fences without expecting you to do it for her. I mean, she may not ask, but some women fall back on that old "helpless" role, and cry that they will never be able to forgive her, etc. That is not you cue to assure her everything will be fine, yada-yada. Leave it to her to work on the R with them. Let her do the talking and working with them.
Counseling is a must. Definitely MC and I would hope IC, although that has to come from her.
Yes, a good therapist to guide you during the reconciliation & piecing is very important. Piecing is hard! Some couples have made it to piecing, but couldn't make it
through piecing. The work has just started when you reach piecing. Make sure you have a qualified therapist who works with couples healing from A's. Some hole-in-the-wall MC can mess up people's lives, b/c they have limited training.
You are sounding stronger.
You are sounding stronger.
Hello Kramer!
I agree with Sandi, you are sounding stronger. Hang tough and keep up the good work.
Bob
Kramer, I can't imagine being in your shoes, although, I must admit being a little envious. Right now things still seem bleak with my ww telling others she's getting a divorce, putting the house up for sale and continuing with the om. Can't see her turning around and questions things like yours is.
However, you are being incredibly strong not pursuing. Can't say I wouldn't have had fun with my ww if she initiated like yours did. But, being able to rebound and hold strong is very encouraging. Keep it up Kramer. You're getting results!
