carried over from last thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2563689&#Post2563689I tiled this thread -
"Surrendering this battle to win the war." because that is where I feel I am up to in terms of detaching and moving forward. I feel that I have come a long way in the past month or so, since I honestly stared detaching.
Like everything else there have been many steps. Cadet likens detaching to an onion which is quite apt. Holding me back lately is that she (W) is still in the picture. My picture of where I want to get to that is. The last few days have been ....sad, to say the least. I feel better now. I feel like I have accepted a future in which my W is not part.
This doesn't mean that I am closing the door on her. I'm just not holding it open. The truth is that she closed the door on me and our M many months ago. I don't blame her for doing so. I am committed to working on my issues. As much as I would like to open the door, it is up to her to want it.
So - the battle is clinging to any chance of saving our M. The war is to become a stronger person, complete and happy without needing a partners' or anyone else's approval. To accept responsibility and be responsible for my own happiness. To be more patient and tolerant. To accept and not try to change or control others...... and a whole list of things I ned to recompile.
If my W ever wants to talk about the M. I'll deal with that if/when it comes up.
When you learn to be ok even when you're not ok...you'll find yourself gaining confidence and feeling better and better able to meet life on life's terms. And I think this is a good R skill to develop as well, as so much of the destructive behavior we did was trying to control our spouse to make sure we didn't experience feelings we didn't like. Lot of parallels.
I tend to sit too long with my feelings before actively distracting myself. But they do certainly resurface as you say. And when they do I am grateful for spending too long with them before, because I can deal with them better the next time around.
You're right, I am more scared of how I will feel/fall apart when for e.g. she re-M or something, than the actual event. I will take this onboard.
I'm having a problem with the "controlling" behaviour. My IC is ......skeptical. My Mum doesn't agree at all. I have been meaning to post a comprehensive history and psychological development as I move through it myself. But that is ...a work in progress. So in the interests of ever posting anything.... briefly
My egomaniac father did always push me. Mainly academically. When I was 8 i had a brain tumour. My life changed forever, and my happy childhood ended. Several months later I returned to school as the outcast sick kid, bald and big scar. As part of rehabilitation I learnt to meditate. I was naturally introspective. And I didn't have friends to distract me. I craved acceptance.
A few years later, at high school, I was LESS known as the brain tumour kid. I discovered that he clown of the class was very popular. Thats where I headed. A decade later I was still a clown, living the high life, drugs, partying etc.
I went back to school at 27. HUGE 180. Single. a few years later I met W.
My "ego" has always been very conflicted. In the first years of our R I felt great. I had acceptance, and I dint have to be "the clown". I was excelling academically. Then she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech. As i have said before, I was absorbed in my PhD and neglected her. Anyway, she came back to me.
I was getting tremmors losing co-ordination, balance, hearing, paralysis. Not hugely to stop me from leading a normal life. Then I blacked out one day. No problem, but I saw a neurologist anyway. He explained all of symptoms to me. The tumour is not a problem, but the after effects of radiotherapy are progressively manifested in my daily life.
How bad is it? Not huge really. But noticeable. For e.g. I can't ski anymore, hell i can't even write with a pen to fill out a form.
Anyway, the significant thing here is that following her leaving me as well, this just compounded my NEED to hang on to her. And that became to much pressure to bare. I NEEDed the acceptance and I couldn't lose that. So I was controlling in this respect.
i'll leave it here for now.
Pyrite, I have finally caught up with what you have written. Your analogy about the RC is true.
I have a fear of both needing to jump, and clinging on in the hope of salvaging my M. I can see neither of these are healthy, but it doesn't stop the wild swing between the two.
What I keep asking myself is this, which one will bring my M back? I know we need to detach and don't care but the reality is I have this at the forefront of my mind everyday.
Days are good where I think I have accepted a future without H, but then I know that is not the case as it hurts to think of this. I guess real acceptance comes when we no longer care or hurt.
I think for me is the NEED for acceptance too, combined with a fear of abandonment and rejection, control and anger was going to rear it's ugly head. And it did for years until my aha moment.
My IC and I have spoken about our core beliefs we carry with us from childhood, we are currently working on changing these beliefs. It's frightening how these can manifests itself as our behaviours, highly critical, defensiveness, controlling, making excuses, high expectations of ourselves and others, deflection and this list was from one of my beliefs!
My IC ask me to take a simple Aspergers test because of some of the examples of behaviours I was given her. Result 86% chance on the spectrum.
just to clarify - it was too much pressure for her to bare. it was my worst nightmare and i suppose i needed reassurance more than ever. I was largely satisfied, but was not fixed. Later, things mounted, then we had the baby. W was under pressure to i guess. in retrospect she put herself under a lot of pressure with the baby.
On a daily basis I felt like a stranger/ servant in my own home. Periodically, I would ask for reassurance that I was more than that. It got to a point where she outright refused. Things were unhealthy from then on.
Who knows IF only. But I do know that it was wrong of me to exert this pressure on her. I expected her to reassure me, and then resented her when she didn't. I was generally quiet about this resentment, turning it inwards, getting depressed, requiring further reassurance. I started resenting everything about her.
Smothy, Py...I have been posting on a few threads, but take a look at the exchanges on JellyB's.
How this ties in is that I DEFINITELY counted no STBX to reassure me that I wasn't horrible. So when she BD'd me and cited the things about myself that felt were defective as the reason, yeah, I was devastated.
I'm copying something I wrote in my first thread about 5 weeks after BD.
I've come a long ways in some areas. It's strange, I don't have a low sense of self worth for ME personally...I just feel I'm not worth anything to a woman. Does that make sense? Any of what I've written below sound familiar?
After writing this my mantra was "I am not abandoning myself. I will be here to comfort and nurture my emotional self".
PS- Yes, Bond wasn't a big fan of this post either
********************************************
I met with my therapist today and think I uncovered the source of my low self-worth, fear of abandonment, co-dependency, pretty much the whole picture. It is DISSOCIATION!!! Basically, when I was young I went through some scary and intense times in my house. Long story short, I decided I didn’t want to deal with emotions, and instead lived in my head. I told myself I didn’t feel anything. And it worked…to a point.
The problem is that those emotions didn’t go away. It was like the 11 year old child inside of me that needed love, attention, comfort, nourishment, etc, got beat for being a pest and locked away in the closet. This hurt myself, but I didn’t look at it because I stayed too busy.
So low self worth…I never validated my OWN emotions. Fear of abandonment…I abandoned MYSELF! Read through the cycles below and watch how it played out.
Lately I’ve been trying to get more in touch with my emotions. They’re not fun to deal with, but I’m not running from them. I’m going to feel them and be strong enough to deal. I’m going to live in the real world. It’s not fun to be mortal but I can’t live in a fantasy world anymore.
And I’m proud of myself. I hurt but I’ll be OK. I’m not perfect but I’m special. And I’m excited to learn that by facing my emotions I don’t have to live in fear of crashing, fear of rejection, and fear of self loathing. It’s the first time in my life I haven’t been afraid and I feel great! I’m honestly not afraid of my STBX never changing her mind, because I’m learning I can handle life on life’s terms.
To be fair, even writing all this is a bit ‘manic’, but I will now sit with it for a few minutes and be ok with the stillness, the pain, the sorrow. I can handle it. And I am starting to like who I am because I’m taking the steps I need to take. Thank you for sharing my journey.
DESTRUCTIVE PERSONAL CYCLE:
• Lack of my own self-worth. Due to impossibly high standards I feel like I’m not good enough.
• Dissociation. With underdeveloped ability to deal with my own emotions I repress them and then run from them. I do this by using:
• Grandiose ideas. I set tremendous goals for myself, then charge towards them with crazy intensity. The faster I move the more I distract myself from my pain. So I move fast. I tend to be ‘manic’ and can easily stay up half the night with racing thoughts, writing many pages planning my moves, etc. I live in a fantasy world in which I’m going to become a world champion in my sport. Watching porn. Etc.
• Fear. Because I have learned by experience I can run from my emotions but cannot hide I grow terrified of the inevitable crash. This fear drives me even faster.
• Facing fear. Tired of living in fear I try to ‘face my fears’ but putting myself in scary situations. My therapist told me fear controlled me, not because I run from it, but because I run towards it. Even faster still.
• Depression. Eventually the feelings catch up and I can no longer outrun them. No matter how hard I tried I can’t get away. Not only am I down, I feel hopeless and ready to give up.
DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP CYCLE:
• Fear of abandonment. I feel something is terribly wrong with me and I’m unworthy of love. I hope there is someone to prove me wrong and love me anyway.
• Co-dependency. I find a woman with equally low self-worth thinking she’ll validate me, fix the pain in my heart, and won’t ever leave because she needs me as much as I need her.
• High expectations. I have impossible expectations of her as she can’t fill the hole in my heart.
• Rejection/depression/anger. I feel soul crushed that she doesn’t meet those expectations because “if she loved me she would”. I get hurt and angry. I withdraw to protect myself from further rejection and to manipulate her with emotional abuse to give me what I think I need.
What I keep asking myself is this, which one will bring my M back? I know we need to detach and don't care but the reality is I have this at the forefront of my mind everyday.
Same. everyday. but i think it gets less, or you get used to it.
Days are good where I think I have accepted a future without H, but then I know that is not the case as it hurts to think of this. I guess real acceptance comes when we no longer care or hurt.
I am cautious of this. "No longer care or hurt" both seem a bit harsh. but I think I know what you mean.
What I am coming to terms with is more of the same really, a with detachment in general. for me anyway. As i have said before, I didn't want to detach. I pretended I did, but I didn't want to push my W away from the forefront of my mind. Then I had a real rough experience and I HAD to.
I was really surprised how well it worked. the fake til you make it scenario. AND my worst fear turned out to be TOTALLY wrong. I didn't lose feelings for my W, they became clearer.
SO - I think this "jumping" issue or the door issue as I discussed above is likely to be the same. I mean, i think that because I have already felt that. Not totally, but it is sinking in. I am coming to terms with the fact that in all likelihood SHE is not coming back. I can see/feel/accept this without denying what I need to do.
So it is more like an affirmation that what I am doing is for ME. It is not to win her back. I am not saying that I dont want her back. I AM also acknowledging that the best chance I have of winning her back is to do this, DBing, self-growth, etc.
To come full circle then, the best chance I have at self-growth, and so the best chance I have at winning her back, is to JUMP. BUT JUMPing I mean cutting "saving the M" out of the equation. It makes no sense I know. But I feel that this is holding me back.
Everything that makes me feel bad, after peeling off so many layers already, the recurring one is this. And I might add, that once it starts, once one layer gets you down - layers being layers of the detachment onion - they all come back. And s**t you thought you were over all of a sudden is a nightmare again.
so does anyone have an opinion about Mothers Day?
from last thread:
Following what I just said - I also don't want make things worse with STBX, so...
With mothers day coming up should i take kids to get her a present. I think yes, it would be almost rude not. I won't be sending her birthday wishes etc, but this is different. do you think she would interpret it the wrong way and I should just ignore it?
in other cases i can see how it is not my role, but this sorta is.
I have thought about this and how it sounds, and I can appreciate how people might be skeptical. I think for all of us; we can feel good about trying to be better people, and sometimes even confuse successfully "going dark", as the same. And we lump in there that we are doing all of this towards the noble cause of saving our M. We turn all our S's "hissing" into positives, and dismiss it as script etc.
I guess what I have been feeling, and what I have concluded (which could turn out to be crap) that seems to make it all sit easier is removing my S from the first paragraph entirely. So we are left with trying to be better people, full stop. As soon as I let S into this, in anyway, +ve or -ve, it screws it up for me, and sets me back .
Z's concern that I am just flicking the switch is duly noted. I agree that this wouldn't be healthy at all. I dont think it is a big problem for me as I think I lean the other way.
I dont know if this is just more of the same crap, or actually clarifies what I have been trying to say. Regardless it doesn't cost me much to post it.
Mother's Day anyone?
Z's concern that I am just flicking the switch is duly noted. I agree that this wouldn't be healthy at all. I dont think it is a big problem for me as I think I lean the other way.
I dont know if this is just more of the same crap, or actually clarifies what I have been trying to say. Regardless it doesn't cost me much to post it.
Mother's Day anyone?
Hello Pyrite,
I agree with my good friend Zues, too. It wouldn't be healthy....you are right.
As for Mother's Day, I am wondering the exact same thing. Sorry, I'm not sure Pyrite.
Let's hope one of the vets on this forum can help us with this.
Take care of yourself.
Bob
My DB coach recommended that I have the kids do something special for her on her birthday. My STBX loves the kids (of course), photography, and plants/gardening. So I had the kids get her some gardening stuff and put them in birthday bags, each had a different message. Then I took a picture of the kids out in the front yard by a tree, very nice picture. I had it framed and put it in one of the birthday bags.
I know she really liked the gifts because later I got to see a text exchange she had with someone else about how awesome it was. Of course, at the time I got nothing but dismissive remarks ("that wasn't really necessary, but maybe the kids enjoyed getting me something store bought in addition to the hand made things they made, though those things meant more to me than they'll ever know..."). But that was really early in my sitch. Then again, you're really early in yours. So maybe something along those lines would be appropriate.
This year, however, I'm not really sure if I will do something similar. I didn't for xmas. STBX got something from the kids to me for xmas...it was a xmas ornament that STBX made (she took up 'wood burning' and she did a little decorative xmas ornament). I didn't really respond or reciprocate, and frankly I found it pretentious because I don't really want something from my STBX in the center of the new traditions I'm forming. But no big deal.
So I blanked xmas and will probably blank mother's day. She can have the memory of the gifts on her birthday as a nagging reminder that I am capable of doing thoughtful things. But we're no longer in a spot where I care to do them.
If anything I think I'll ask my kids if they need help getting her something for mother's day, and I'll let them drive the ship entirely. That way my fingerprints won't be on them at all (unlike the birthday stuff).
PS- not sure if you saw my long post from last night. I replied, but then you replied right away and might have missed it. Or maybe it was just too long to read
So I blanked xmas and will probably blank mother's day. She can have the memory of the gifts on her birthday as a nagging reminder that I am capable of doing thoughtful things. But we're no longer in a spot where I care to do them.
If anything I think I'll ask my kids if they need help getting her something for mother's day, and I'll let them drive the ship entirely. That way my fingerprints won't be on them at all (unlike the birthday stuff).
Pyrite,
As Z wrote earlier in his last post, you are early on with your situtation. But the part I quoted above makes a lot of sense, too. I did not get my WAW anything for Cristmas or Valentine's Day per my therapist's advice. My W walked out and filed for D in late October, so it was only 2 months later that Christmas hit.
As I've thought about it more, maybe you can ask your young children to draw something for your W and leave it at that.
I'm not sure if I'm helping, or confusing you more. I certainly hope this helps.
And, as Z wrote, and I did in my previous post, please make sure you read his earlier post. Very, very good stuff.
Bob
cool. It was the pro-M part I was looking for. I dont want confrontational, just someone who suggests other ways of thinking bout an issue OR highlights when my way of thinking about something is ....questionable. Someone who is MORE ready to be on the front foot than just passively listening. I'm not saying that this is ALL she does either. Just weighing up.
Thanks for the advice.
"Solution based" in another theme to search for, otherwise it's often a rehash of the past.
For us, it usually lead to yet another argument and or the belief that we really could not stay married and be happy.
IMO, seeing a pro-marriage counselor should mean that you work on yourself and stay inside your own sandbox, (and out of your wife's sandbox). Boundaries are huge and they seem to be an issue for you.
Your wife won't be in the office with you and your counselor, so there is no point in putting the focus on her or her behavior or what you perceive as her thoughts/emotions, etc. It gets to be all about you (and the kids).
As for "confrontation", I think the point is that you are someone who may want a kid gloves approach from a counselor, or the defensiveness in you will rear up. The need to be declared "right" is sort of a deadly disease in us, that we have to defeat.
And imo, the challenging type of IC is what you actually would benefit the most from. That is certainly not confrontation for confrontation's sake. The priest who married my h and me didn't say a whole lot of insightful or memorable things but one remark does stand out.
"It's not the number of conflicts that determines the health of a marriage -b/c life throws more curve balls to some couples. It's HOW those conflicts get resolved that counts."
It'll be great to have an IC who can get you to stay on your path of self improvement and personal growth, and to keep you on it.
Have you considered hiring a DB coach for at least a few sessions?
My DB coach was a real Godsend. Something she told me that only sank in much later, was this:
No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.
And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes.
What do you think your wife has seen and heard from you, consistently, and with sufficient time?
Here's the "math" of it.
Consistent change + sufficient time = change they can believe in.
Good luck!
carried from last thread ....
"Solution based" in another theme to search for, otherwise it's often a rehash of the past.
For us, it usually lead to yet another argument and or the belief that we really could not stay married and be happy.
IMO, seeing a pro-marriage counselor should mean that you work on yourself and stay inside your own sandbox, (and out of your wife's sandbox). Boundaries are huge and they seem to be an issue for you.
Your wife won't be in the office with you and your counselor, so there is no point in putting the focus on her or her behavior or what you perceive as her thoughts/emotions, etc. It gets to be all about you (and the kids).
As for "confrontation", I think the point is that you are someone who may want a kid gloves approach from a counselor, or the defensiveness in you will rear up. The need to be declared "right" is sort of a deadly disease in us, that we have to defeat.
And imo, the challenging type of IC is what you actually would benefit the most from. That is certainly not confrontation for confrontation's sake. The priest who married my h and me didn't say a whole lot of insightful or memorable things but one remark does stand out.
"It's not the number of conflicts that determines the health of a marriage -b/c life throws more curve balls to some couples. It's HOW those conflicts get resolved that counts."
It'll be great to have an IC who can get you to stay on your path of self improvement and personal growth, and to keep you on it.
Have you considered hiring a DB coach for at least a few sessions?
My DB coach was a real Godsend. Something she told me that only sank in much later, was this:
No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.
And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes.
What do you think your wife has seen and heard from you, consistently, and with sufficient time?
Here's the "math" of it.
Consistent change + sufficient time = change they can believe in.
Good luck!
great advice. A DB coaching session. I had all but dismissed this. If I was in the States this would've happened already. But the time difference makes things awkward.
actually I want the opposite to "kid gloves". I suggested "challenging". it was MrBond who brought up confrontational. I need someone to "steer" me. I tend to lead, especially when handed the reigns.
"No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.
And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes."
I have an issue with this. It comes up repeatedly in posts/responses. Sort of in DR, but bette qualified I guess. The WAS (or at least mine) is busy enjoying her new life. She doesn't give a damn about what I am doing. She doesn't spend her time thinking, "Gee - if only I could believe in a change I would go back to him or give him a chance". She has moved on.
I concede that possibly she is conflicted, but all around her, and her own gut, is telling her to detach (which is easier for her I wager already having OM). move on with what she has now. forget the past. it was toxic she tells herself. "I am never going back there. I am never going to be sorry for what I have done. I had to. And I did nothing wrong. I followed my heart."
My trying to control her, WRT craving acceptance from her in the M was farcical, wrong, destructive, etc. Me believing for a second now that I can influence the situation is delusional. She has to look. ALL I can do is be the right person that she sees. BUT she has to look. and that has nothing to do with me, and that is heavily, heavily weighted against me.
Of course I DO want reassurance from these posts that "there is chance" (and the like). But I dont realistically expect it, nor would I believe it. Well, this is my biggest issue presently, I would believe it. My head would be skeptical, and even dismissive, but my heart would find a way to twist rationale in such a way that "you know what - it doesn't seem so far fetched", that she would have thoughts of "looking" occasionally. BUT she is fighting these feelings, as I am fighting mine, and she is in a stronger place.
thanks for advice. I am sure I read your post before I passed out (sleep), time difference here. whose thread? we seem to be hopping a bit.
Thanks Bob, I am yet to get back to your thread. Time will beeves shorter this week. My turn with the kids.
I am ditching Xmas, birthday, definitely V day. Just Mothers day is sorta different. She is my kids mother, whatever she is to me. I certainly wouldn't include my name on the card or anything.
Another question.
My D4 repeatedly asks and phrases questions to me about the M? Do you miss mummy? Do you want to live together?
It is getting increasingly difficult to answer "neutrally", and I am getting more and more p***ed off that I can't just tell her "Mummy doesn't want to try. Mummy already has OM".
how have others dealt with this? opinions?
Thanks Bob, I am yet to get back to your thread. Time will beeves shorter this week. My turn with the kids.
I am ditching Xmas, birthday, definitely V day. Just Mothers day is sorta different. She is my kids mother, whatever she is to me. I certainly wouldn't include my name on the card or anything.
Pyrite,
You're welcome! I understand what you mean about Mother's Day. Good approach.
Hang in there.
Bob
I was referring to the post on page one of this thread about abandoning yourself.
As to what you're saying now, you're right that your WAW feels that way. But here's the thing- the same way I told you that you can't "decide" your way out of painful feelings, she can't either.
She can decide that you are the devil. She can decide whatever the heck she wants. But she's going to hurt every bit as much as you from the destruction of her family.
So to your next point, that she's medicating so much with OM she wouldn't feel it if she was playing full contact football against a team comprised of porcupines. While this is true to some point, she's still conflicted.
Maybe a WAW can post more on this, but they have thoughts like "I wish it could've been like this with me and Py", or "Py would've thought that was funny", or "Oh, look what little Johnny did, I wish I could share that with Py", or "This guy's asking me questions about me that I lived with Py, my partner will never know the 'me' I was for so many years of my life". I could go on.
So while they are doing everything they can to blame you for the pain that somehow navigated it's way through their labyrinth of medication...they are STILL truly conflicted.
And though they snap a rubber band on their wrist every time they think of you...they DO think of you.
And though she's watching every step you with an eye out for anything that could twisted into a flaw to rationalize her decision...she IS watching every step you make.
And though she is stubbornly against anything that suggests that maybe destroying her family isn't in her best interest...at some point she may hit ROCK BOTTOM.
Look at all of the people on this site. You. Me. Parker. Miami. Mozza. We all bottomed out, and that prompted us to seek change like we've never changed before.
Who's to say she won't do the same thing if she bottoms out? And as she's still been experiencing those pesky feelings of love for you, those irritating feelings of regret for the life you had, she will once again look at you with fresh eyes. And the things you do between now and then will inspire her of two things. 1) You are a good man, capable of change, capable of making a future R possible, and 2) If you can do it so can she.
Someone has to be the leader here. She can't do it, so I'm afraid you have to.
Now- you're also right about one thing. There's no guarantee she'll follow. Nor should you concern yourself with looking over your shoulder.
But as the leader of your family you have to walk the path and at least give her the opportunity to follow. Sitting in the corner saying "I'm not going to be a leader if she won't follow anyway" is you being just as uncommitted as her. Commitment to the M means doing what you know to be right regardless of what she does.
Best of all...regardless of what she does you'll feel better, stand taller, and be better prepared for your next R. So time to retire from the "mind reading" and "future telling" business, and work on getting your PHD in "DBing presented by 25years".
25- thank you for posting on Py's thread. He's so much like me I think someone must have taken a drop of my blood out of a fossilized mosquito around the time he showed up...:)
Thanks Z. great responses. I'll re-read when i am not on the clock. I also want to thank-you 25, and Z - for the compliment - I hope I can live up to the expectations.
Peace and love to you all. Thanks a gazillion.
i can't reply in full, time difference means I am at work and always out of syncwithmost of you guys ....
Maybe a WAW can post more on this, but they have thoughts like "I wish it could've been like this with me and Py", or "Py would've thought that was funny", or "Oh, look what little Johnny did, I wish I could share that with Py", or "This guy's asking me questions about me that I lived with Py, my partner will never know the 'me' I was for so many years of my life". I could go on.
funny, last 2 emails I got from her (updates about the kids) she chooses D4's comments about me to report. clearly the reminder comes externally (through Ds) as well and must impact her internally methinks. anyway, useless temperature checking.
And though she is stubbornly against anything that suggests that maybe destroying her family isn't in her best interest...at some point she may hit ROCK BOTTOM.
this highlights one point - she hit rock bottom. she ended her M. Now she is on the upside. how strong is she? can she beat out all the negatives? with doting OM on her arm ( foreigner - desperate to stay in country to boot - so no boat rocking on his side) - odds are on her side.
Looking over my shoulder is nothing but a tripping hazard. If she taps me on the shoulder, I might turn around. If it was today or next week I surely would. But in 6 months time? When the kids are settled. The house is sold. I can be the leader of my family. Me and my girls. But she is capable to be the leader of hers.
Me again. OK so i feel childish here. What answer will i be happy with -
1. YES Py, you are right it is hopeless, give up....
2. NO Py, there is always hope .....
I think it is both maybe.
2. is obviously true. there is a point where it becomes stupid (extreme e.g. - she dies).
1. is where I am. I am/have giving/given up. The "..." at the end of the sentence could and should be that I still have to do all the same things anyway. I can't consolidate being hopeful and doing these things PURELY for myself
Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.
Py: "this highlights one point - she hit rock bottom. she ended her M. Now she is on the upside. how strong is she? can she beat out all the negatives? with doting OM on her arm ( foreigner - desperate to stay in country to boot - so no boat rocking on his side) - odds are on her side."
Z: Yes, obviously it is nothing but down hill from here. The destruction of her family doesn't impact her at all, not when she's got a new relationship stemming from an A that has a near foolproof 6% chance at lasting success.
Py: "Looking over my shoulder is nothing but a tripping hazard. If she taps me on the shoulder, I might turn around. If it was today or next week I surely would. But in 6 months time? When the kids are settled. The house is sold. I can be the leader of my family. Me and my girls. But she is capable to be the leader of hers...
Me again. OK so i feel childish here. What answer will i be happy with -
1. YES Py, you are right it is hopeless, give up....
2. NO Py, there is always hope .....
I think it is both maybe.
2. is obviously true. there is a point where it becomes stupid (extreme e.g. - she dies).
1. is where I am. I am/have giving/given up. The "..." at the end of the sentence could and should be that I still have to do all the same things anyway. I can't consolidate being hopeful and doing these things PURELY for myself"
Z: It doesn't matter. YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT AND IT CAN'T CONTROL YOU. There is nothing you can do to control the outcome. And that fact shouldn't control what you choose to do from here.
Either way you will suffer. You still seem to talk like if you give up you'll feel better. DETACHING will make a difference. Giving up on the idea of standing will not.
Either way you will move forward with your life.
Either way you will grow from this.
The only way the outcome could possibly impact you is if you were only on these forums with the assurance you could get her back. If that's the case the changes would only be manipulative, shortlived, and destined for failure.
But if the goal is to be the best Py you can be including:
Standing by your M based on beliefs not feelings
Using this as an opportunity to course correct destructive behavior
Then you can do that no matter what anyone else does.
Oh, and standing by your M doesn't mean clinging to an outcome, or wishing she'll return. It means not burning bridges and letting nature take it's course. Wherever that course is.
I really think you're overcomplicating this and deceiving yourself. What I really hear coming through is "This hurts so much, I wish I had my M back, but wanting something I can't have hurts, so I don't want to keep wanting it unless I think there's a good chance I can have it, so either I need to see some reason to think there's a chance, or I need to stop wanting it, but I'm having trouble not wanting it anymore, so maybe if I give up that will substitute for detaching..."
Stay the course. You will detach. It takes time. There are no short cuts. It's a long painful road. Most people can't handle that road. Your W couldn't. But the people that do choose that path not because they want to, but because it's who they are. Who are you going to be?
Zues, what you have written sounds like the cycle I am in.
My IC says that once I got on that treadmill, I was too scared to get off for fear of abandonment and rejection. Self love is such an easy concept but one that most of us find hard to do.
I have to love myself fully, before I can love others and others love me for WHO I AM and give me full acceptance. I was too scared to show whom I am before because of my rejection/ abandonment issues. I am still working towards these.
I am not afraid of being alone, I am afraid of being left alone/ abandoned, if you know what I mean.
Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.
I feel that hope is keeping me at this spot of not moving forward, that's why like Pyrite I think I need to jump and abandon the hope of me saving the M.
I need to stop the suffering that hope is giving me as Hope keeps me too attached. For our own sanity we need to detach and let go fully. I am finding this more difficult as I move towards the date of returning to the UK.
Pyrite,
Please pardon the length of this but I want to address a few themes that seem to come up often in your thread.
First, I agree Mother's Day IS different b/c it's not specifically about the marriage or your r with your wife.
it's about her carrying and then bringing your children into the world, and nursing them and caring for them...whether you are married (or alive) or not.
Your kids are too young to manage this on their own.
Helping them make something for her would be great (a hand print in clay or drawn out and colored with the date and perhaps a frame of it? Just an idea and that would not be too pricey and it's not romantic but it IS thoughtful.
What's your wife's love language? Does she value hand made gifts or the store bought only? (SIDE NOTE I highly recommend the book "Five Love Languages" by Chapman. I suggest everyone read that no matter what stage you're in b/c it'll always be helpful in your R with your wife even if only as the mother of your children).
Helping the kids give her a Mother's Day gift ^^ is not pursuit if done right; it can be a friendly, thoughtful gesture that shows respect for her value as the mother of your children....
If a purchased gift is more to her liking, keep it simple. Involve the children as much as possible b/c it's really from them
EXCEPT it's fine to say "thank you for bringing our children into the world and loving them" and that's it.
AND PLEASE Attach zero expectations from her. Don't look for her to raise her eyebrows and then read into it or if she turns from you don't assume anything. Just help your kids do a kind thing for their mom. It's about teaching them to do this; not about how she reacts to your involvement. Okay? If you cannot manage this without over analyzing and obsessing about her response it may not be a good idea then. In that event I"d just text her a polite thank you.
The other comment I wanted to mention is that no mother is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children with their father.
Seeing the kids with their dad happily playing or bonding, is an emotional turn on.
In your case, I assume there's no direct observation of your parenting. But rest assured that the children tell your wife when they've had a good time or when they miss you, etc. (But the converse is also true, i.e.' they'll tell her when they did not have a good time).
She's not a robot. Of course that hits her. She may repress it AND OR say "too little too late", or it may not be happening if the kids are seeing you cry or losing your temper and no, I'm not suggesting you are.
I"m merely mentioning that if an LBSer is showing all their pain to the kids, it does 2 negative things;
1) it really does harm the well being of the children and they often take on the responsibility of nurturing their parent, rather than the reverse;
AND
2) it's not at all attractive to the WAS. It can come off as needy/clingy and weak or even manipulative.
For me, one of the biggest reasons I had to let go of my anger, (regardless of how justified it might have been)
was b/c it was interfering with my mothering. I was too preoccupied to be fully present with my kids. My anger and resentment were hurting ME and my kids.
( I have no idea what effect it had on my h but it sure didn't attract him back to me.)
Sometimes all we can say at DB land, is what did NOT work for us, and showing my resentment was futile and hurt me and my kids a lot. That, I know for sure.
When I really began to let go of the anger, and all the score keeping and really turned it over to God (my faith definitely grew and was a tremendous aid to my path)
I also GAL, big time, it helped me detach a lot.
It's mandatory to GAL in order to Detach.
I'd like to hear a lot more about what your GAL is like b/c without it, you won't be able to detach.
and Detachment helps your growth, keeps the focus on you, & helps you stay in your sandbox, and out of hers.
Make sense?
Another question.
My D4 repeatedly asks and phrases questions to me about the M? Do you miss mummy? Do you want to live together?
Does she truly say this out of nowhere, or is it b/c she sees your pain and wants to understand it?
It is getting increasingly difficult to answer "neutrally", and I am getting more and more p***ed off that I can't just tell her "Mummy doesn't want to try. Mummy already has OM".
how have others dealt with this? opinions?
I'd venture to say that most of us faced similar questions. If you're being asked the same question repeatedly then your answer is obviously not sufficing.
My DB coach said that unless I was 100% certain that a divorce was coming and soon, (not a year in advance b/c that is way too long for a child to grasp and it looms over their heads too long as well)
you don't say it.
When my d's would ask if we were going to divorce, I'd say
"I sure hope not, b/c I have loved your dad a long time." Or something similar.
It's a positive true statement, yet not a denial of reality.
ALSO I made a point to reassure them if/when they pressed me on it b/c often their biggest fear is effectively losing a parent.
They need to know that even "if daddy and mommy don't live together anymore, we will share you b/c we both love you so much". They have to know they are Not losing a parent AND that the LBSer will be alright "alone".
IT's way too easy to over rely on our children's love to sustain us. Ends up burdening them at far too young an age. Pretty unfair really.
(IF you are in the mood for a "message" from a song, listen to Kelly Clarkson's "Because of You". It's about her parents divorce and one parent's pain effectively removing that parent from her life, emotionally, for a long time. Don't listen to it if you're already feeling low).
So back to DBing...what are your GAL activities this month? And your 180s?
Any short term goals?
Remember that 180s don't have to be observed by her for you to do them b/c the 180s have 2+ purposes; only one of which directly involves the WAS.
Those 180s are to counter the negatives the WAS has of the LBSer with new or different Positives...for instance,
if one complaint about you happened to be that you are often late,
You'd become MR PUNTUAL, often arriving early for appointments, for instance.
You demonstrate change that makes her 'data" about you invalid, inaccurate or just no longer applicable.
As you go down the list of her justifications for leaving and address the ones you felt were valid,
you greatly lessen her arsenal...
AND the second reason you do the 180s is b/c you want to become the best, most loving, strong Pyrite that you can become.
So how is that ^^^ all going?
Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.
Please read or re read the DB books. GAL is mandatory to Detaching and Detaching is mandatory to peace of mind. It is NOT "Giving up", it's moving forward and the difference is not merely semantics.
You need to stop the obsessive thoughts and the "loop de loop" of "WHAT IF/WHERE IS SHE?""
and the totally unsatisfactory experience of always asking WHY? WHY? WHY?
I should know, I wasted a year of my life asking that question. I still don't think my own h knows why. More important, what answer would have been "good" for me to hear? There's no way I will ever be able to wrap my brain around my h's choices then.
But here's a TIP: You CAN manage to stay married and be happy, without always understanding why our spouse did something. But you need to stop asking b/c that takes the focus off of your own work. Accept that you may never understand exactly why she is making her choices OR that the reasons for it are too painful to see on your end.
What matters is how you cope with all of that.
And the ONLY way I know how to do that, is by GAL. This can include a lot of prayer too, but it's for sure going to require movement on your end.
Not stagnation. Don't confuse standing still (or wallowing in pain) with Standing for your marriage.
That tends to stall growth AND ironically leads to the end of marriages prematurely.
Meaning, if you GAL for real,
then you will begin to ENJOY YOUR LIFE and that makes all of this DBing a heck of lot easier.
Make sense?
I need to stop the suffering that hope is giving me as Hope keeps me too attached.
For our own sanity we need to detach and let go fully. I am finding this more difficult as I move towards the date of returning to the UK.
I don't know your thread well enough to know why returning to the UK will make it harder to detach.
Will you have more contact with her? It is home for you?
Regardless, you MUST begin to GAL asap. What can you do this Month?
h. List a few hobbies or interests of yours, or classes you'd like to take or a sport you want to play or coach
or a charity you could volunteer for, or a political organization, and get in good physical shape.
If you are a man of faith, check out your local church or make an appointment with a minister or priest (they're FREE!!)
There are tremendous resources in our world now. Even someone off the coast of Alaska can get online or the phone.
Avail yourself of the resources asap.
And begin to heal yourself. Good luck, keep on keeping on.
((Sorry for the hijack Pyrite))
anytime 25, great for me to hear as well
First, I agree Mother's Day IS different
What's your wife's love language?
EXCEPT it's fine to say "thank you for bringing our children into the world and loving them" and that's it.
AND PLEASE Attach zero expectations from her.
Thanks for the ideas. I wouldn't be game to give her any sort of a book, let alone a R-"ish" book. I'm not even planning to sign the card, let alone make any nice comment.
The thing that will stick with me for the longest from the after math of BD was her insistence on me recognising that she didn't want to have a second child with me. She wanted a playmate for the first. Thats how much and for how long she has felt so little for me, even contempt.
She may very well have been angry. But this is a despicable thing to say and if true is unforgivable. Suffice as to say, I don't want to celebrate her bringing our kids into the world.
I will try not to have any expectations. But I am not as "tough" as I think I am when things are all going smoothly. I'll post separately re: todays events.
In your case, I assume there's no direct observation of your parenting. But rest assured that the children tell your wife when they've had a good time or when they miss you, etc. (But the converse is also true, i.e.' they'll tell her when they did not have a good time).
She's not a robot. Of course that hits her. She may repress it AND OR say "too little too late", or it may not be happening if the kids are seeing you cry or losing your temper and no, I'm not suggesting you are.
We have 50/50 custody. D4 and D2. D4 is Daddy's girl. The past few weeks have been rough because she has said things like "I never miss Mama, only Papa", and to W's face, "I dont like you". Not surprising. Since D2 was born she has spent almost all of her time with me. D2 is strangely attached to me. I am not sure how it happened really. She was breast feeding until Christmas time, and so primarily in Mums hands non-stop.
The week after we separated, W went away "on business". I was a wreck, but held it together for the girls, and we had fun. I just agonised all night long. Nowadays, you wouldn't even know there was anything wrong if you saw me with the girls. So NO, never sad or such. They are my greatest strength and inspiration.
My W, apart from wanting the time with OM, has never suggested anything else than 50/50 custody. I have always been Mr. Mom anyway, she just waltzes in and plays with the kids. I play with them too PLUS do all the cooking, cleaning, banking etc.
Since day 1 she has said to her friends, parents, mediators, etc. The girls are too attached to Py. I couldn't do that toTHEM.
I also GAL, big time, it helped me detach a lot.
It's mandatory to GAL in order to Detach.
I'd like to hear a lot more about what your GAL is like b/c without it, you won't be able to detach.
and Detachment helps your growth, keeps the focus on you, & helps you stay in your sandbox, and out of hers.
Make sense?
[color:#3333FF]
I'd venture to say that most of us faced similar questions. If you're being asked the same question repeatedly then your answer is obviously not sufficing.
My DB coach said that unless I was 100% certain that a divorce was coming and soon, (not a year in advance b/c that is way too long for a child to grasp and it looms over their heads too long as well)
you don't say it.
When my d's would ask if we were going to divorce, I'd say
"I sure hope not, b/c I have loved your dad a long time." Or something similar.
It's a positive true statement, yet not a denial of reality.
ALSO I made a point to reassure them if/when they pressed me on it b/c often their biggest fear is effectively losing a parent.
They need to know that even "if daddy and mommy don't live together anymore, we will share you b/c we both love you so much". They have to know they are Not losing a parent AND that the LBSer will be alright "alone".
IT's way too easy to over rely on our children's love to sustain us. Ends up burdening them at far too young an age. Pretty unfair really.
Excellent
. This is basically what I say. I am paranoid that this is it though. Why D4 resents her mother. Because W is the one who doesn't want to go back. I don't know what she actually says to D4 but, from time I was present it was certainly not "I hope not".
So how is that ^^^ all going?
i'll have to get back to you on that. Big 180 on how i interact with EVERYONE. I am more patient, tolerant, actively listen and validate. It has made big difference I feel. I have made a much bigger effort to socialise at work. And outside of work. I am improving my R with parents and sister. Going over, coffee etc. as well. This is a big 180 with my father!
Working on me which is huge in itself. Seeing 1 IC, actively moving to another. Taking care of my medical "condition" for the first time in 20 years, not running away from it. 4 specialists in 3 months. actually 8, but others were 2nd opinions.
Meditating (nearly daily). Walk on the beach (nearly daily - near work). was swimming at the beach everyday until Easter (Southern Hemisphere). I used to hate beach, or avoid it at least - sand brrrggggghhh.
Stopped drinking. I was drinking a bottle of wine per day on average for the past 3 years.
Been seeing old friends. Sorta planning a trip interstate to visit old friend, but selling house so I might wait. Booked snow holiday for a few months time (with kids - first time). I stopped skiing b/c depressed about "condition".
building momentum for skiing buddy to buy yacht
he has the money, and wants it anyway
. organised sailing small craft withs friends H week after next when he get s back from trip. actually borrowing it periodically over next few months before buying(?).
weekend after this one with girls will go river kayaking, on my own, just for a n hour or so on calm river - at first. its been many years!
looking at re-locating with girls (1 hour away), checking out schools etc.
thats all i can think of right now. not bad - i was dreading ANSWERING B/C I DIDNT THINK THERE was anything (sorry caps lock)
oh - and i called DB coach. still deciding. bad afternoon.
school visited in proposed relocation area - problematic. in fact proposed area problematic. this is the "agreed" upon compromise. SO - best case scenario looks like I am going to cave and live 1.5-2 hours from my work, family etc. on "wrong" side of town. to have 50/50 custody of kids avoiding court because W won't compromise on location and I am pretty confident that in the absence of any good reason, court will award custody to W.
2nd. House was a mess as usual when I came in for my tag-team week. Girls living in family home and we go in and out. My W will leave the house without having ever cleaned the floors.
3rd. last but not least. d4 was telling me about the different R's in our family. grandparents etc. Then she said Mummy spends a lot of time w OM. blah blah. One day i saw them and he was biting Mummy all over her body. Lovely bedtime stories!
Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.
Please read or re read the DB books. GAL is mandatory to Detaching and Detaching is mandatory to peace of mind. It is NOT "Giving up", it's moving forward and the difference is not merely semantics.
You need to stop the obsessive thoughts and the "loop de loop" of "WHAT IF/WHERE IS SHE?""
and the totally unsatisfactory experience of always asking WHY? WHY? WHY?
I should know, I wasted a year of my life asking that question. I still don't think my own h knows why. More important, what answer would have been "good" for me to hear? There's no way I will ever be able to wrap my brain around my h's choices then.
But here's a TIP: You CAN manage to stay married and be happy, without always understanding why our spouse did something. But you need to stop asking b/c that takes the focus off of your own work. Accept that you may never understand exactly why she is making her choices OR that the reasons for it are too painful to see on your end.
What matters is how you cope with all of that.
And the ONLY way I know how to do that, is by GAL. This can include a lot of prayer too, but it's for sure going to require movement on your end.
Not stagnation. Don't confuse standing still (or wallowing in pain) with Standing for your marriage.
That tends to stall growth AND ironically leads to the end of marriages prematurely.
Meaning, if you GAL for real,
then you will begin to ENJOY YOUR LIFE and that makes all of this DBing a heck of lot easier.
Make sense?
I need to stop the suffering that hope is giving me as Hope keeps me too attached.
For our own sanity we need to detach and let go fully. I am finding this more difficult as I move towards the date of returning to the UK.
I don't know your thread well enough to know why returning to the UK will make it harder to detach.
Will you have more contact with her? It is home for you?
Regardless, you MUST begin to GAL asap. What can you do this Month?
h. List a few hobbies or interests of yours, or classes you'd like to take or a sport you want to play or coach
or a charity you could volunteer for, or a political organization, and get in good physical shape.
If you are a man of faith, check out your local church or make an appointment with a minister or priest (they're FREE!!)
There are tremendous resources in our world now. Even someone off the coast of Alaska can get online or the phone.
Avail yourself of the resources asap.
And begin to heal yourself. Good luck, keep on keeping on.
((Sorry for the hijack Pyrite))
Sorry, Pyrite too
Thank you for this advice. I am 'she'. I will try and answer some of your questions, firstly I have not seen H for 6 months, H served me D papers when I was here. We share a house together.
I finally got DR and DB books today! It has only taken @ 5 weeks. The country I am in is very difficult to do these things because of language, not always safe for a foreign female to be on their own.
here some of the things that I have done/ doing since starting this thread;
IC, weekly (via Skype)
DB too but not weekly
journaling
Searching on internet on self improvement
Reading up on self improvement books on how to Love myself, codependent no more.
Going out with co- workers at least twice each week
Become friends with people I see regularly at the places the international team go to, but language still a big issue
Started going out to concerts, theatres and shows (not in English!)
Been asked out and pursued by several men which I have enjoyed flirting with and drinks but no more
Speaking to friends and family regularly but usually only happens at weekends due to time difference and friends work commitments
Organising my move to my new job.
Learning a new language
Opened new accounts and separated finances
I have already joined some meet up groups in the UK in readiness for when I get back home.
AND PLEASE Attach zero expectations from her. Don't look for her to raise her eyebrows and then read into it or if she turns from you don't assume anything.
What a terrific quote. That really helps me understand when I'm pursuing or pressuring my WAW.
3rd. last but not least. d4 was telling me about the different R's in our family. grandparents etc. Then she said Mummy spends a lot of time w OM. blah blah. One day i saw them and he was biting Mummy all over her body. Lovely bedtime stories!
I legitimately had to ask her about mothers day. I casually (unemotionally) also asked her to be discrete around the kids. I don't think this was unreasonable do you ?
Mi casa, su casa
More emails. She denies it. 4 year old must be confused she reckons. Anxious to sell house. Our last communication on the subject I said "house needs fixing first. I would like to know how you can contribute to this." So she goes ahead and calls agent.
I am not "burning bridges" Zeus - I am just sick of holding the door open for a woman who HAS not treated me as a H for many years. I acknowledge what I did in full but that does not change or excuse how she has behaved for years, and absolutely how she has behaved in last several months.
One door closes and another one opens.
Z: It doesn't matter. YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT AND IT CAN'T CONTROL YOU.
I agree.
There is nothing you can do to control the outcome.
I agree.
And that fact shouldn't control what you choose to do from here.
I dont agree entirely. Our behaviour is always to achieve a desired outcome. This is cause and effect. its how the world works - in everything.
I think more specifically to the case in point, whether I can control the outcome or not, my behaviour SHOULD be to make the best possible Py. So what I am "saying" is detach from the outcome.
"saying" because: -
I really think you're overcomplicating this and deceiving yourself. What I really hear coming through is "This hurts so much, I wish I had my M back, but wanting something I can't have hurts, so I don't want to keep wanting it unless I think there's a good chance I can have it, so either I need to see some reason to think there's a chance, or I need to stop wanting it,
"but I'm having trouble not wanting it anymore, so maybe if I give up that will substitute for detaching..."
Basically true. Maybe I am substituting but this is not my intention. I am seeing it as part of detaching. Detaching from my W, detaching from the situation, detaching from the outcome.
Is this unreasonable?
Stay the course. You will detach. It takes time. There are no short cuts. It's a long painful road. Most people can't handle that road. Your W couldn't. But the people that do choose that path not because they want to, but because it's who they are. Who are you going to be?
I don't have a choice do I? I can't just choose to ignore this? I dont know, but I dont think there is any going backwards. Even if I stepped out today, the rest of my life would still be set by what has happened thus far. Maybe that is "who we are" to begin with. I know for me my conscience screams at me, or at least is very loud. I can't even lie on a form.
maybe that is part of the problem. my conscience did curse me the last few years for how I treated my W. Then I felt more depressed. I needed reassurance more. My W didn't want to play anymore. I resented her. I got more depressed. My conscience screamed at me........
I needed reassurance - is I think where the loop stands out as needing to be killed
Selling the house is a BIG issue for me incase you haven't noticed
This is all making me feel sick again. I'm going for a walk.
Take care, Pyrite, good to take a breather.
We are stuck in a loop, but it is up to us to stay on the road that Zues talk about for ourselves.
This is the most difficult thing I have ever done, learning about myself, learning to let go and move forward.
Py- did you read my post today (I posted it recently on Bob's and Ten's thread) about where detachment comes from? About needs?
Read through Bob's thread, I explained it a bit better. Get back to me on what you think. Thanks.
Thanks Smothy, you too. I never imagined anything so hard. It seems like the past is crapped all over, the future is upside-down, and the present is just rubbing it in. That said, I do feel much better after a walk, half successful meditation on the VERY windy beach. And you know what started THIS downturn. Last night when I picked the girls up from day care i can see W's initialisation in sign in book.
She must've forgotten herself, Freudian slip perhaps,but she signed in using married name (initials). This is a first since BD, uses maiden name. Then d4 drops the biting game commentary. This morning I get to work to flat out denial email, blaming d4's confused memory AND I will call the agent and say go on the sale then.
I am pathetic
.
Py- did you read my post today (I posted it recently on Bob's and Ten's thread) about where detachment comes from? About needs?
Read through Bob's thread, I explained it a bit better. Get back to me on what you think. Thanks.
I will while you're sleeping - i have to do some work before I get sacked. My output has been woeful for 3 months. That said - i probably will anyway.
Good. Your posts % of including WAW's behavior has rebounded into the upper 80% range.
Just because you learn something doesn't mean you won't forget it.
Don't forget that this is all about you.
yeah i know - just posted on Bob's , in response to Cadet "So whats wrong with LBH getting over WAS". Feel free to answer if Cadet misses it.
I expect Mr Bond back soon with his club
I am pathetic
.
Nah man, that was a really hard set of circumstances.
I would have been curled up, bawling my eyes out on the bathroom floor.
You handled it well. You did your best. It [censored], but you lived through it.
This is the most painful episode in my life. My father, brother in law (of 30years) and sister all passed away with 18months of each other and the hurt and pain of this is so much deeper.
I am not being dramatic, I am finding this so much harder to cope with.
I am holding myself to a mirror and changing the things I see about my self that I do not like so I can move forward and not just focus on saving my M.
Thanks Smothy, you too. I never imagined anything so hard. It seems like the past is crapped all over, the future is upside-down, and the present is just rubbing it in.
This^^ is 100% perception. YES it is. (I know you are already arguing "but no, it's reality and it's unfair to ME and I am hurt"...)
But if another person were to look at your past, they might see a man with 2 healthy children and a job, selling a home and those 3 FACTS alone (your wife cannot change those) make you a fortunate man.
As for the present & certainly your future; it's what you create. You know, there are choices in this process.;
Exercise CHOICE or be stuck. But know that being stuck is another choice.
That said, I do feel much better after a walk, half successful meditation on the VERY windy beach. And you know what started
THIS downturn. Last night when I picked the girls up from day care i can see W's initialisation in sign in book.
If you cannot let go of an accidental use of her married name, allowing it to start "THIS DOWNTURN"
you will be suffering longer than you need to. Let it go. The more upset and depressed you get, the less available you are for your children AND for real GAL
Move on..."NEXT!" 
She must've forgotten herself, Freudian slip perhaps,but she signed in using married name (initials). This is a first since BD, uses maiden name.
Then d4 drops the biting game commentary.
This^^ is in the past, & you already passed it on to your wife and there's nothing more to do or say about it. Let it go. This morning I get to work to flat out denial email, blaming d4's confused memory AND I will call the agent and say go on the sale then.
I am pathetic
.
So, what are YOU going to DO/PLAN THIS WEEK to further your healing process?
I expect Mr Bond back soon with his club
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think^^ these comments are funny. To me they are not helpful.
Sometimes they sound almost like you are whining about a veteran here, who donates A LOT of his time for free.
But maybe I'm just reading it incorrectly. How about putting the focus on what YOU can do for your life to be better.
Good. Your posts % of including WAW's behavior has rebounded into the upper 80% range.
Just because you learn something doesn't mean you won't forget it.
Don't forget that this is all about you.
this^^^
Instead for us co-dependent types it can be hard to give up on the idea that "they need us" and just don't know it. We meet our emotional needs by them needing us, that's how we feel important, valuable, or whatever. So sometimes detaching is hard because even when they're treating us poorly we're still dependent on them for their dependence on us. And even when they insist they don't want our love anymore we believe they need us to wait for them, for the fairy tale ending.
I haven't admitted to myself in those terms before. It gives me new focus. highlights what I need to detach (this layer). I suspect this is tied into my current tailspin. why I am back to talking about W so much.
"Running around that same old hole" - I told you I wasn't just "deciding" to detach, and rather than medicating I have been living with this agony. Trying to find where it coming from. HUH - to all those who always advise me to cut bait. What good can come of this ....."self torture". Moments like this - thats what!
We'll see - but i felt better immediately when I read this. A door has opened .... I love you man.
Your 1st para there at Bob's "intimacy etc was gone at BD". Yes it was. I maintained this co-dependency in the M by working so hard around the house. Being a great, hands-on Dad. Being considerate in the sense of flowers and gifts. BUT the R was screwed. This co-dependency is I think largely what I miss. And I fabricated that. I was getting nothing from her, except that I felt an integral part of IT.
I thought I had more to comment on, but will have to review what I wrote in light of this new +ve light that appeared on re-reading the paragraph.
I expect Mr Bond back soon with his club
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think^^ these comments are funny. To me they are not helpful.
Sometimes they sound almost like you are whining about a veteran here, who donates A LOT of his time for free.
But maybe I'm just reading it incorrectly. How about putting the focus on what YOU can do for your life to be better.ooo ooo this 1st. No disrespect intended at all. MrBond has been a HUGE help to me, and I am indebted. Possibly not a good idea to share private "jokes" on a public forum.
Reading Zeus' earlier threads are very similar to mine, and MrBond (rightly so) gave him a hardy 2*4ing as well. Thats all I was meaning.
[quote=Pyrite]Thanks Smothy, you too. I never imagined anything so hard. It seems like the past is crapped all over, the future is upside-down, and the present is just rubbing it in.
[color:#3333FF]
This^^ is 100% perception. YES it is. (I know you are already arguing "but no, it's reality and it's unfair to ME and I am hurt"...)
But if another person were to look at your past, they might see a man with 2 healthy children and a job, selling a home and those 3 FACTS alone (your wife cannot change those) make you a fortunate man.
Thanks Py. It's a treat to know that we can help each other along this path.
What 25 says is really powerful. Being appreciative is something I think we need to do DAILY. I remember thinking of it this way: If I look at God and say "God, you gave me healthy children, a successful and challenging career that allows me to provide for my loved ones, good friends, and talents and gifts to share with the world...but I want my M back, and if I can't have it the rest of this is a bunch of crap and I won't be happy!"...if you can't be happy with this life you have...one woman won't change that. (PS- I know you don't believe in God in the same sense as most people, but guess what...neither do I. I use the word because it's easier than trying to explain our own beliefs...it doesn't really matter).
I also know you have gotten into Buddhism and meditation and different times. So have I. One of my favorite Buddhist story is about a man that traveled the world to see the Buddha. He finally got an audience, and proceeded to tell the Buddha all about his problems. His family problems. His crops. His finances. Etc. Buddha calmly nodded.
Finally the Buddha said "I can't help you". The man was upset and asked what he meant. Buddha replied "Everyone has problems. 83 problems to be exact. And there's nothing you can do about it. If you work hard you can solve one, but another will appear in it's place. For example, you're going to lose all of your loved ones at some point, we'll all die. Now that's a problem no one can do anything about."
So the man was furious and asked what the point of being wise was!
Buddha told him he could help with his 84th problem...the desire to not have any problems.
I think this story and appreciation go hand in hand. Spend less time fixing, and more time appreciating.
Glad you're having fun DBing Py...someday you'll look at this period as the bootcamp that made you the person you always wanted to be.
25,
thanks so much for your comments. I have the girls this week so I am flat out with them. Even so, there are things I can do. I am starting a book I should've read many years ago about brain healing. I am paying attention to my health for the first time in many years. I have lined up a new IC (BTW MrBond helped me out on this as well) for a few weeks. Have an appt with the old one on Monday, possibly final session with her.
Visited one school yesterday, another one tomorrow.
Have to plan what to do work-wise on house before sale. BIG job.
Thursday night W will drop girls off girls after new schedule of mid-week visit for OTHER parent. So this is on my mind. Not a scheduled 180/GAL though I realise, BUT could be.
i feel I have made a huge breakthrough following Zeus' post about co-dependency. It doesn't address at all where this actually comes from, or resolve it, but it is a huge help to identify and recognise that this IS an issue for me.
(PS- I know you don't believe in God in the same sense as most people, but guess what...neither do I. I use the word because it's easier than trying to explain our own beliefs...it doesn't really matter).
Works for me. I do the same. Even in hardcore science presentations I "invoke" His name to stand for the truth, the Universe, that which we dont understand but He does.
Yes. Appreciate. "Its time like these you learn to live/love again" - Foo Fighters. I'm not a FF maniac, just the first example that popped into my head of the "reminders" to appreciate. Also highlights another point though - it is exactly times like these that perpetuate growth.
Hehe - I followed the Buddahs path around the world, I started somewhat by accident. went to birthplace, first sermon, other appearances. Same with Jesus, Mohammad. Turned out to be a year long religious pilgrimage for an atheist, a spiritual atheist, maybe that is a better description of agnostic!?
(PS- I know you don't believe in God in the same sense as most people, but guess what...neither do I. I use the word because it's easier than trying to explain our own beliefs...it doesn't really matter).
Works for me. I do the same. Even in hardcore science presentations I "invoke" His name to stand for the truth, the Universe, that which we dont understand but He does.
Yes. Appreciate. "Its time like these you learn to live/love again" - Foo Fighters. I'm not a FF maniac, just the first example that popped into my head of the "reminders" to appreciate. Also highlights another point though - it is exactly times like these that perpetuate growth.
Hehe - I followed the Buddahs path around the world, I started somewhat by accident. went to birthplace, first sermon, other appearances. Same with Jesus, Mohammad. Turned out to be a year long religious pilgrimage for an atheist, a spiritual atheist, maybe that is a better description of agnostic!?
Makes me think about the insomniac agnostic dyslexic...he stayed awake all night wondering if there really was a dog...
BTW - my doting W has answered my dilemma about Mother's day. In the email i sent the other day. 1st. Please be discrete....re: boyfriend around d4. 2. do you want the girls Mothers Day.
Response: 1. she must be confused
2. No
Last time this happened was on d4's birthday. again fell in my custody period, so asked her if she would like some time to do something with her. Found out later, picture evidence - she went to a beach day trip with boyfriend. Meanwhile, she told her friends, family, that I wouldn't let her have d4.
just makes me want to go out of my way all that more.
So will leave presents the girls made at daycare/kinder and no word from me.
25, i am more conscious of 180s now. they are popping up all over the place. I just now took my watch off. No big deal you might say, BUT I have never worn a watch in my whole life.
Remember that 180s don't have to be observed by her for you to do them b/c the 180s have 2+ purposes; only one of which directly involves the WAS.
Those 180s are to counter the negatives the WAS has of the LBSer with new or different Positives...for instance,
if one complaint about you happened to be that you are often late,
You'd become MR PUNTUAL, often arriving early for appointments, for instance.
You demonstrate change that makes her 'data" about you invalid, inaccurate or just no longer applicable.
As you go down the list of her justifications for leaving and address the ones you felt were valid,
you greatly lessen her arsenal...
AND the second reason you do the 180s is b/c you want to become the best, most loving, strong Pyrite that you can become.
this is what I am trying to address more directly now. excellent advice. thanks
I am seriously considering buying out my W in family house. Also claiming full- custody. This could backfire on me, but I am starting to think it is not so far fetched that the court would lean my way. BTW, I can still do the house thing, without claiming full-custody.
I'm not the mother, but in every other respect, I am the better parent. Especially now.
Everyone is urging me to be firm and even go on the offensive here. So far I have bent to her every whim. Her magic card - full custody. She has as far as I know not deliberately played it. Nor may she even know she holds it. She may be showing me mercy by allowing me 50/50 without a fight. She very likely does not want full custody because she couldn't cope. Especially given her new romance.
This would be a huge 180!! Bonus - not motivation.
Things could force this is in a few hours when/if I hear back from her re: her tour of proposed school in agreed compromise location. Stand ready to put out the fire.
Py- I can't remember. Do you have a DB coach? An IC? Have you hired an L?
Remember, there is no "better parent". The children NEED both their parents.
If you read through my sitch you'll see I was in a spot where I really was concerned about my STBX's ability to be a mother. She was just released from the hospital for a suicide attempt (taking pills with our 3 year old downstairs while the other kids were at school), she drove back to the house (I would visit them at the house because I didn't have a place yet) very drunk, told me she would end it all for real if she lost the children (obviously trying to manipulate me into not taking action for her behavior), and did some other things that were off the rails. I was SERIOUSLY worried that she wasn't able to parent the children.
But you know what? I also knew that if I tried to scoop full custody to "protect" them, their mom would go nuts. She might kill herself, which wouldn't be ideal, or she might dedicate her life to a court battle bordering on crusade. And even if I "won", THE KIDS WOULDN'T HAVE THEIR MOM. And right or wrong, it would be based on my decision.
I had to ask myself...was launching a crusade and taking the mom away from her children REALLY a worthy cause? Was that REALLY better than just accepting that they would have some bad influences around them (I found out later OM had been spending the night 1-2 times a week for months, he'd never said a word to the kids, they thought it was 'weird' another guy was there they didn't know)? Yeah, this situation stinks, but taking the mom from her children should be TRULY A LAST RESORT.
Instead I continued to monitor the situation, and so far, it's been ok. I had a scare a couple of months ago when she didn't answer the door when she was supposed to (for those that were there with me for that morning of terror- thank you!). I see signs that she's drinking heavily and know that isn't ideal. But she is there mom, and they have a right to a relationship with her unless it is a matter of physical safety. And I can use MY parenting skills to show them MY version of how to live life.
OK...I'm taking a breath. I agree that relocating the kids is a big deal, and you need to know your rights. I agree that you need to stand up for your parenting rights because your kids need you.
But please, please, be very careful about declaring yourself a better parent, or justifying doing anything to interfere with their relationship. To me, taking a kids from their parent is about the only thing in this world I think could be more criminally destructive than a divorce.
PS- I don't agree with 'going on the offensive'. My L told me she starts with a very fair offer, but doesn't back down from what's right. She says that most of the time she settles quickly, but even when people drag it out through courts she usually gets what she asked for in the beginning. She insisted there is no 'strategic' reason to start off by being threatening or unreasonable. Do what you know to be right. What she's done to you is hard. Letting her impact how you choose to live and respond...that would be tragic.
No DB coach yet. Have an IC. Moving to another IC for ...."comparison". No L, yet.
My sitch is no where near as dramatic as yours!
BUT
Letting her impact how you choose to live and respond...that would be tragic.
She's not choosing so much how, but where. I'm in a position that she WONT compromise on where she is relocating to. She has agreed tentatively that the kids (and me) can live 30-40 minutes away. But the reality is this is NOT workable.
So either she stupidly goes ahead with this only to find out after a few months what a drain it is, or she realises it now. Sooner or later she will realise that the only thing in the way here is the 50/50 arrangement. SO she will L me for full custody.
OR I cave and relocate to her preferred location.
OR I can fight it. But this will be clawing my way back. In the meantime, d4 needs to start school. SO where? And I would prefer not moving her again.
Strategically I think it may be better for me to make that move now, highlighting that she is the one guilty of "abandonment". We are all happy with existing location, schools, daycare, proximity to grandparents etc. (Thats why we chose here after 12 months of searching) The ONLY drawcard to W's proposed relocation is 3 month old job. Otherwise it is 1.5-2 hours further away from everything in ALL our lives.
One last thing - I think you might be being a bit generous. I understand and have faith that you are monitoring the sitch, but i would advise against adopting a stance of such benevolence. I have a family member who grabbed their kid from the alcoholic mother. The mother then had another kid with some long gone deadbeat. The sibling was not related to my cousin, so out of his control. Nonetheless the two kids grew up together. the rescued kid is great now (20 years later). the other - well lets just say ...not so good.
Makes sense. I fully support you doing everything you can to keep her from leaving town with the children. I don't see how that's in their best interest. But run everything through your L and IC. It's good to have checks and balances.
I get where you're coming from on my sitch. There are a lot of factors that go into it. I stand by my decision. She has problems as a human and a parent, but we all do. Taking the kids away from their mom just isn't in the cards unless I feel she's truly off the rails for the count. As is, she's still taking care of them. She was at our S's concert last night with a video camera capturing the experience. She's managing. I think she's settling into a rhythm. Still may be alcohol/pot/OM...but nothing that doesn't go on in MANY households where kids live. Just the reality.
But if she gives me a reason I am mentally and spiritually prepared to protect my children.
Praying that doesn't happen and I am skeptical it will. I think things are settling down.
But if she gives me a reason I am mentally and spiritually prepared to protect my children.
i dont doubt that. Great to hear you are keeping an eye on it. I know several cases like this. I started to tell you about it one time. about custody sitch can change in time re: custody. 2 people I know, one very close, W's were WWs, and assumed full custody. By the time the kids were teenagers they lived with their Dad b/c Mum was just messed up. Except one of the kids that enjoyed parent being oblivious and could handle Mums behaviour otherwise. That kid also ended up in a ....not so good way.
The others are great all love their Mum still, just acknowledge she is screwed up. Actually, they are reassuringly quite mature about it, having lived with their Dads influence.
BTW - in all cases but one of the kids - they asked their fathers if they could come and live with him. in the remaining case, Mum dropped the kid on the front lawn of Dads with a suitcase. barely even slowed down the car.
I didn't see W for nearly 3 months. now 4 times in 4 weeks. 1st was OK I guess some tension mostly she was angry at me. 2nd time she yelled at me for days before and after. Last 2 have been civil. I am concerned that is the new norm for us. I suspect that sounds a little crazy.
Pyrite
Similar problem for me. W says she's moving 230 miles away and I don't want that to happen, especially with the kids. Have been thinking long and hard about legal moves, but it just doesn't seem right to drag loved ones through the court system.
If she's started to talk (yell) at you, at least there is some commuication to work on. I think I'm coming around to taking action as a last resort and just letting time take its course. I see you're a couple of monts further down the road than me, so I hope you can get some positive resolution.
Thanks Huddy. I should be thankful really. I'm not that far. I actually have custody ATM. I am just p**sed I suppose that W is running the show completely. And it is n't like I did before as it has been suggested.
I never thought I would be in this position to say to someone else - but you are very early in your sitch. Time marches on I suppose. I'll have to check out your thread to know more detail.
-Py
I spoke to lawyer at legal aid and here at least W is not allowed to put kids in a school without my consent. However, as with other stupid laws I have come across, the catch is that is not actually illegal either.
So, if she does take this action, then I have to petition courts and get judge to order reversal or whatever. As I anticipated, problem with this is that it could take 12 months to get through. SO it would be 1 year of ...."crap". only to then move kids out of one school and into another. they have been through enough already without this added trauma.
quiet day otherwise. the further away I get from BD, and less emotional, the less likely it seems that I will ever have R with W. 1. She is in love with OM. That has to end first, and in reality it may never. 2. It is beginning to sound ridiculous to me. its like choosing which horse you want to ride for the day and saying "yeah I want that one, he kicked me off last time". (I was meaning from W's perspective, but could be mine as well really). So could a new horse as well, but you never know that.
Hi Pyrite
Are you in UK?
Unaware of that catch. That's the thing though, you want to be a loving father, but everything seems to be in favour of the mother, regardless of what they have done or are doing.
Keep strong. The grass may seem green right now, but the cowpats not far away!
Australia. Lawyer on phone told me that it would be a waste of my time claiming full custody unless I had evidence that she was neglecting the children in some way. Basically, the court isn't even going to waste time on making the decision until it is satisfied that a decision needs to be made. In other words - she can't file for full custody either
The grass may seem green right now, but the cowpats not far away!
True - possibly. It may be true love, meant to be. But I seriously doubt that for several reasons which are not really important for us DBers. What is important for me is the detachment (and serenity
) I've achieved in the past week.
Zeus et al. There were several issues I was rolling into one. The roller coaster I had to jump off, my investment in the outcome (saving the M), I need(ed) her to need me (in the M and even now. This is something which was still hurting like a fresh wound. Now that I have identified where it is, I can dress the wound. It might be a gusher. But at least I can see it. )
All of these boil down to one realisation I have had that has made me feel so much better. And it is related to something else you said Z, "your IC said that people are not so much afraid of the events they expect to happen, but that they won't be able to handle them"
Well guess what,
bring it on baby, you can't hurt me worse than what you already have - and I am past that, and smiling Dance a little dance
Make a little Love
Get Down Tonight
Australia. I seemed to think it was mainly people from the US on here.
W's lawyer told her the same thing (I guess UK law and Australia law are modelled on the same thing) that I wouldn't get custody etc., but I'm not after that, just the right to enable me to have a say in where they live. In the UK, laws are different in England and Scotland, but essentially I have parental rights which means I can say they can't live so far away, but I have to prove that doing so would be detrimental to the children concerned.
Keep thinking about W needing to want you. They wanted you once, they'll realise that they'll need you again. (See, I've been listening and reaidng to everyone abou the 180).
Chin up, keep going.
Nice.
Glad full custody is off the table for BOTH of you. It wouldn't be a win for either of you. It would be a tremendous loss for your children. They have been through and will go through enough.
Australia. Lawyer on phone told me that it would be a waste of my time claiming full custody unless I had evidence that she was neglecting the children in some way. Basically, the court isn't even going to waste time on making the decision until it is satisfied that a decision needs to be made. In other words - she can't file for full custody either
The grass may seem green right now, but the cowpats not far away!
True - possibly. It may be true love, meant to be. But I seriously doubt that for several reasons which are not really important for us DBers. What is important for me is the detachment (and serenity
) I've achieved in the past week.
There were several issues I was rolling into one. The roller coaster I had to jump off, my investment in the outcome (saving the M), I need(ed) her to need me (in the M and even now. This is something which was still hurting like a fresh wound. Now that I have identified where it is, I can dress the wound. It might be a gusher. But at least I can see it. )
All of these boil down to one realisation I have had that has made me feel so much better. And it is related to something else you said Z, "your IC said that people are not so much afraid of the events they expect to happen, but that they won't be able to handle them"
Well guess what,
bring it on baby, you can't hurt me worse than what you already have - and I am past that, and smiling Ha. That's funny. I have in the past OFTEN turned to the sky and asked "IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!?" Yes, it's nice to identify where the pain is coming from. Instead of being some broken shell of a person, you can realize you're still the same successful and healthy person that is suffering for a good reason. Then you treat those wounds and do what you can to leave them alone, let them heal, and enjoy your life.
If you can do that now while the wounds are still fresh, trust that it only gets easier. I know it still stings to hear that because it's not what you really want, but that sting too will relax. It will go from electric fence to jelly fish to a static spark from touching a doorknob after walking across a shag carpet...occasional and minimal. Take care!
Actually it is not just coincidence. We inherited England's law. As did US, but then they D'ed them.
. I think most inhere are from US. "Smothy" is from UK
my mindset is changing. I was thinking - this has been so long. when is it going to change. when am i going get that break. Now I am thinking - it is early days. Whatever happens happens. There is stuff that I want to get done before anything "happens" anyway. Well, that is at good "times" (not whole days yet). I still have plenty of bad times. But I actually have good times now which was unfathomable a month ago.
Thanks Zeus. for everything
Totally, second that.
Reflection on your posts has stopped me from doing some pretty stupid things :-)
THANK YOU
Great, Pyrite that you have 'good times'
I know what you mean, mine are short, but they are longer than they were last week. Small steps.
I have even begun to ask myself, do I really need him.
thats the Ticket Smothy
. I dont think it is a bad thing. I dont think it means you are getting bitter. Maybe you can just see that there is a life for you - either way.
Thanks Huddy. I should be thankful really. I'm not that far. I actually have custody ATM. I am just p**sed I suppose that W is running the show completely. And it is n't like I did before as it has been suggested.
Hey, sorry but I cannot help but believe that at the root of your desire to have full custody is NOT that she's "unfit" (which is the legally required standard in every state here), but that you are "just so p**ssed" and a whole lot of is centers around the OM or him being around your kids.
Almost every state in the US favors joint custody, which does not always translate into 50/50 physically, but does give equal rights to the parents about schools, religion and location.
I'm a L (but not in the UK obviously), but here, you cannot use OM as grounds for saying she's unfit -
UNLESS
he's a convicted felon who has not mended his ways (or if his crimes involved children) AND OR if they are having sex in front of the kids AND OR doing something dangerous around the kids. (Sorry but drinking by itself won't cut it.)
SO
You may be wasting a lot of time and energy and money on something you won't win, and which at its core, stems mostly from jealousy.
JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT...
I never thought I would be in this position to say to someone else - but you are very early in your sitch. Time marches on I suppose. I'll have to check out your thread to know more detail.
-Py
If you remember little else I say to you, remember this:
Life is so terribly short. Make the most of it. Don't spend tons of mental or physical or emotional (or spiritual!) Energy on things you have no control over.
Is it Buddhists who advise us to let go of that which we cannot control or have,
and learn to be happy with what we do have?
Hi 25,
Thanks for the reply and advice. You are absolutely right that I have a bee in my bonnet re: OM. I cooked him lunch while I was unaware of the EA going on in Nov 2014. But since that day suspected and have commented on here before re: all the shenanigans. But as you say - it is not worth the energy spent. And even though I have always agreed with that sentiment, it is something which I continually improve upon every day BUT have not achieved in full, yet.
That said, my argument, based on the "legal" documentation of the family court has been that among major issues to be addressed in a "custody agreement" whether reached via mediation or not, is "re-partnering". This is because it is well recognised that re-partnering can be traumatic for the children. It is a delicate issue to judge when is the right time to introduce a new partner to the situation. W including OM in family outings from day 1 after separation (literally - and labelling him as her family) is in her selfish interests AND NOT in the best interests of the children.
This HAS been an issue on countless occasions. d4 has commented every week indicating her confusion over Mummys replacement best friend etc etc. Finally, it is in the children best interests of parents to achieve effective co-parenting relationship. Her outright refusal to exclude him in any way IS NOT in the interests of fostering such a relationship.
Regardless, this issue of applying for full custody is spread across a few threads. Somewhere I noted basically this same legal advise that you gave. i.e. The court does not even want to make a decision unless it is necessary and it is not necessary unless there is evidence of one parent being "unfit" or negligent. As there is not, this also means that SHE has no grounds for such an application either. So end of story really. L action was only ever a preemptive strike.
HOWEVER, recently d4 has commented to indicate that she walked in on them. This is heresy of a 4 year old (albeit - 4 year olds have no basis from which to make up sexual performances), and possibly construed as an oversight and not deliberately
having sex in front of the kids
.
All of that said - I am over it. I have had a pretty good week
. Things are coming together. And I have everyone here to thank for it most of all.
As I have noted, I offered W to have kids on Mothers day (otherwise my cudtody). She declined as has become the norm. I was curious if she again told her family th at I ws unwilling. Anyway, MIL called me this morning, "can i come over/bring lunch". This is 2nd time since separation, an many phone calls.
Anyway, W did imply to her side that as Mothers day fell in my custody period she would just have to wait. MIL gets updates from me because can't talk to her daughter - even about custody mediation sessions etc. W is STILL really angry and attacks her Mum when she brings up anything related to M, former life, kids future etc.
I am curious whether it is normal for WW's to be angry in general, and show it to everyone post Sep. and not just H. My feeling is that she is angry because of 1 and/or 2.
1) She is conflicted
2) She is still hiding A. I revealed photo evidence (back in Feb) that the A was in full swing, something which she denied and presumably was hoping to reveal only at "some" interval post separation. She still denies it which is insane, but anyway.
2b) It is possible that he has rejected her recently as well - I jus dont know really.
Any comments? It sorta gives me hope that she is "angry" and not just moving on happily.
You're going to have to let go here.
Here's the thing- no one knows what your W is going to do, because she's out of your control. Of course she's conflicted and afraid of judgment. Will that mean she hits rock bottom and sees things differently at some point? Or will she continue to medicate, avoid, and pursue more extreme distractions? Or will she gradually settle down on these things and stabilize into a healthier life but still want nothing to do with you?
The fact is that no one knows, and looking at her every mood change, conversational tone, etc, will only keep you very attached. This will cause you pain and suffering, and that pain and suffering will lead to more judgment and criticism of your W. Because where it's really coming from is "You're hurting me so you're bad"!!!
Think about that for a minute. If she wasn't hurting you, do you think you'd care about her behavior? Before you bring the kids in, hold up. There are MANY jerks on this planet that treat other people poorly. You don't let it get to you because they're not part of your world, you don't allow them to impact you. Well, you need to let go of your WAW so you begin to feel that way about her.
Because all of the criticism about her parenting, her cheating, her leaving the M, her behavior, her lies, her treatment of you...it's got to be very fatiguing. You know my sitch, so you know I get you have to be aware of the impact to the kids...but unless you have reason to take immediate protective action, you need to just leave it alone. Worrying about what others think of her and you, what they'll believe, who's side they're on, etc, not helping.
So how do you let go of this? Well, it is DEFINITELY a process, and won't happen immediately. But it won't happen naturally either. You have to decide you're going to break the habit of judging and criticizing your WAW, which again requires you to not allow her to hurt you anymore. If that means you have to "give up" on the M, that's fine, as long as "giving up" doesn't involve anything not DB recommended (medication, affairs, any bridge burners). But even until you're detached I want to know-
How do you normally find forgiveness for people that have hurt you? How do you normally avoid judging others?
Let me know, I have a few thoughts but want yours first.
i will sleep on it .Thanks for the questions.
hey Z,
i'm still thinking about your main questions. but re-reading your post several times I have to comment
Think about that for a minute. If she wasn't hurting you, do you think you'd care about her behavior? Before you bring the kids in, hold up. There are MANY jerks on this planet that treat other people poorly. You don't let it get to you because they're not part of your world, you don't allow them to impact you. Well, you need to let go of your WAW so you begin to feel that way about her.
This is true. You never returned to what happens when I do include the kids in, BUT this doesn't change what I know to be the truth, and your point. This quote segment and the rest is what I was kinda getting at with the posts about jumping off the roller-coaster.
She's not part of my world, the outcome with the M, what happens with her, her reactions, what she chooses to do, should also not be part of my world.
Not really for the sake of a future R, but lets call it that, I am on the path that I am , and will continue so, for the sake of my next R. Whether that is with her or not depends on circumstances at that time. I may not be attracted to a R with her. I suppose I wanted reassurance that this is OK to give up or perhaps even actively not want the M back. Actually, just typing that make me realise that I can't actively not want the M, or at least want to try and make the M work.
Bringing the kids into it, even when I am almost done, I know from where I am now even, that I will take two steps back for them, and give it a shot. There is nothing I wouldn't do for them, and if it kills me I will try to make the M work.
Realistically, 2 years down the track, even if I am not in another R, it will be very difficult to be attracted anew to a person that I know their "history" intimately. I doubt I will feel the love for her I do now, and I just may not feel it then. I am not going to force a R for the sake of kids. That R would be even worse than the one we had. Typing that about loving her, I even have to wonder how I actually feel about her now. Relative to 1,2,3,4 and 12 months ago. Things have changed. I have changed. Especially in the last month!
It may sound desperate, but I am not that worried about why she is angry really. It is a sore spot, but as you posted another time: I can poke the wound to test for tenderness, and most (at least a lot) of the time, I can deal with it without being emotional. I never thought I would feel this way, this detached. I can't imagine what the future holds now that I have two listing post BD scenarios that I can compare.
So how do you let go of this? Well, it is DEFINITELY a process, and won't happen immediately. But it won't happen naturally either. You have to decide you're going to break the habit of judging and criticizing your WAW, which again requires you to not allow her to hurt you anymore. If that means you have to "give up" on the M, that's fine, as long as "giving up" doesn't involve anything not DB recommended (medication, affairs, any bridge burners).
This is almost to the letter the reassurance I wanted/needed to hear!!
So how do you let go of this? Well, it is DEFINITELY a process, and won't happen immediately. But it won't happen naturally either. You have to decide you're going to break the habit of judging and criticizing your WAW, which again requires you to not allow her to hurt you anymore. If that means you have to "give up" on the M, that's fine, as long as "giving up" doesn't involve anything not DB recommended (medication, affairs, any bridge burners).
This is almost to the letter the reassurance I wanted/needed to hear!!
Same, I need to jump off this roller coaster as I am beginning to hate myself for not being able to get off and not allow myself to be hurt. I have to willingly make that decision.
My new goal I will actively decide this everyday. Thank you.
Three tools I use to find compassion or to transcend emotional reaction. They are not unique, just sharing coping mechanisms.
1. If it's childish, I don't play. I picture walking by an elementary school with a bunch of 4th graders playing "king of the hill". Suddenly, one of the kids shouts at me "you couldn't be king of the hill, you're not strong enough!" It's a silly challenge, of course I could go knock them all down and prove them wrong. But who would be the fool? The 4th grader that issued a silly challenge? Or the adult that allowed a child to engage him emotionally and provoke a physical response? Again, if it's childish, I don't need to play.
2. There but for the grace of God go I. If I had been born into their life, had been given the same upbringing, had the same coping tools, and faced the same challenges...I would have made the same decisions. True, God made me different. He gave me different strengths, different values perhaps, different perspective. But it's not because I am good and they are bad that we act differently. It is by God's grace. I cannot judge another for not having been the beneficiary of the gifts I have received. In fact, I need to be appreciate of what I have, and compassionate for those that are suffering for want of those skills. (which leads to #3...)
3. I have to put up with it for a few minutes, they have to LIVE THEIR ENTIRE LIVES like this. If someone is nasty, negative, aggressive, confrontational, cancerous...no, it isn't fun to deal with. But after my interaction with that person I get to go on with my life which is overwhelmingly positive, loving, peaceful, and filled with good things. They don't get to do this. They have to spend every minute of every hour looking at the world through the lens of that negativity. While they find moments of peace, they are in tremendous discord, and I have compassion for their suffering even if it's done by their own hand.
Practice these viewpoints in response to not just WAS but anyone that wants to spit venom on you. Yes, I still have to navigate through moments that are unpleasant, but at least it is just a momentary spider bite, and it doesn't infect me with the poison of anger, resentment, and criticism. Or at least not at fatal levels
How do you normally find forgiveness for people that have hurt you? How do you normally avoid judging others?
My 1st reaction is I don't. Thinking a bit more I have actually had to forgive people before for big things, and regular for small things. I think this is combined with the "judging" aspect you question.
I suppose what I have done without being consciously aware of it, and what I have to do now consciously is accept what has happened, and not be "judgemental" of my W. I use "" because I mean not to extrapolate her reaction to her entire personality. And like your post to Smothy, steps 2. and 3. She is not me. Accept her to be her.
I saw (existing) IC today (best session ever BTW - real breakthroughs between us AND for me). We got talking about where I think I need to go to next. I told her that I felt I needed to forgive her. She asked the same question as you did Dr Z. I told her that ^^^^ was my understanding of all that I could do to "forgive her".
She gave me a few extra pointers, but commented that it was too early to expect this, and take it easy on myself. Just live with where I am for a while and detach from here. This was really good advice for me - I am attacking this like I do everything else that I want, full throttle.
She also asked me why I thought this was (ready to 2*4 me if I strayed - which is exactly what I want/need). Low self-esteem. Then we linked everything together, coming from this low self esteem.
I distinctly remember my pre-tumour childhood and being a normal kid. She thinks I have brought my childlike coping mechanisms (which are fine as a child), into my adult life, which absolutely don't work.
Great day. Ironically realise I am a total f*** up, but great day. Because from here, I am in charge. For the first time in my life, today and the past few weeks I honestly feel like I have a say. I have never felt in charge of who I am, I can control who I want to be. I want to call my W and share it with her. I know I can help her as well, but sadly I agree with everyone here - you have to hit rock bottom and then do it on your own.
:* Love you guys.
[QUOTE=Zeus]
She gave me a few extra pointers, but commented that it was too early to expect this, and take it easy on myself. Just live with where I am for a while and detach from here. This was really good advice for me - I am attacking this like I do everything else that I want, full throttle.
.
My IC told me this too today, that I am too hard on myself, it has been such a short space of time. Grieving takes time and I must understand H choice is about how he felt and what he wanted/ chosen to do. Not anyone's control but his. She reminded me that I need to remember that I did the best that I knew how at the time.
This is a good thread.
I never saw forgiveness growing up. I had to learn HOW to do it, and that's after first choosing to do it.
It is a learned skill and it's a process which involves lots of decisions made...
but NO long term happy marriage exists without tons of forgiveness. And no person is content with their life without forgiveness.
So it's not about "whether" to forgive if whether a spouse "Deserves" it; at all.
It's about how WE want to live our lives. It actually has nothing to do with them.
once you take ^^ this in, you'll have a whole lot of free time to live your life well, b/c holding onto your anger now, b/c at some level you believe you'd be "letting her off the hook" is hurting you way way more than anyone else.
Consider this:
**Holding onto anger to "punish" someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire -
to get smoke in their eyes.**
& Here is a parable I heard that really touched me. Maybe you'll get something out of it too.
The World Was Going to End
One day at noon, the whole world heard a loud voice say “In 7 days, the end of the world will be upon you”.
At first, people marveled at the feat of someone being able to talk to the whole world in language of every person, all at once. Some folks found the words disturbing however.
The next day, again at noon, the world heard the words again. The voice said:
“In 6 days the end of the world will be upon you.”
This bothered people more. They were no longer sure it was a prank - but maybe an actual warning of some type. But from whom?
The next day at noon again, the whole world heard the words “In 5 days the end of the world will be upon you.”
People were visibly deeply upset.
Some began to move into the countryside and prepared for Armageddon. It seemed no matter where they went, or how remote the area, however, the message had been heard.
Also, there began to be colors & marks on people’s faces; & the people realized the colors were marks of their sin.
For instance, the green of envy was on many faces, the word “greed" or "Liar"
and the letter “A” for adultery, was a scarlet color on the forehead.
Politicians & the clergy began wearing bags or masks over their heads, or "taking sabbaticals";
Celebrities went on “retreats” where no one could see their faces.
The next day when the voice said, "in 3 days the end of the world will be upon you”, some people were angry and others terrified.
They flocked to their churches and prayed.
The rich began giving away their money.
And yet still, the next day the voice again declared, “in 2 days the end of the world will be upon you”.
Now came despair to so many. It seemed nothing they did could stop the end of the world from coming. Most grieved their pending demise.
There were some who began to accept that the end was coming.
In one home, a husband with the letter “A” on his forehead, stood looking out his window, with his wife next to him. On her, the signs of jealousy and envy were plainly visible.
The husband said to his wife, “I want you to know that you're the only woman I truly loved. Can you ever forgive me?"
The wife turned to him and said “I do forgive you. I withheld my love for you to punish you, & I became bitter. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?”
He said “I forgive you.”
Suddenly, the colors on her face faded away, and the “A” of adultery dropped from his face. It dawned on the couple that by forgiving each other & asking for forgiveness, they had both freed themselves.
The couple became to yell for joy and tell the world what happened happened.
Word spread.
Other couples began to forgive each other.
Brothers who had been estranged or divided, began reaching out to each other.
Wars ceased, as world leaders began to sign treaties they had rejected before.
People reconciled across the planet, and the colors and marks began to fade…
People rejoiced as all across the planet, forgiveness had spread.
Along with forgiveness, came the freedom to love deeply without reservation
& and to live life well.
So it's not about "whether" to forgive if whether a spouse "Deserves" it; at all.
It's about how WE want to live our lives. It actually has nothing to do with them.
once you take ^^ this in, you'll have a whole lot of free time to live your life well, b/c holding onto your anger now, b/c at some level you believe you'd be "letting her off the hook" is hurting you way way more than anyone else.
Consider this:
**Holding onto anger to "punish" someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire -
to get smoke in their eyes.**
This is awesome 25. Exactly describes it. And yes you're spot on about me focusing on "letting her off the hook". Your post clarifies things for me. If you have time can you check in on Smothy. She's spinning her wheels a bit and could do with some of your expert advice.
nice parable. touching indeed. gave me goose pimples. will think about that on the way home.
-Py
That's good. If W decides she wants to reconcile, I won't hold anything against her; it won't be easy, but if the chance comes along, I'm not going to throw it away.
It's not over yet!
It is not over until the LBS says it is :-)
Thanks for looking into my thread, Huddy.
Be careful how you interpret this though. It could be more of a hindrance to detaching than a help to saving your M.
yes, open to reconciliation not waiting. This will be my new mantra.
Giving up hope gives me hope
thank you so much Pyrite. I need this tonight as feeling low from snooping ( I know, but no more!!!!)
i believe you Smothy. I believe you want it. And I believe you can do it. I'm glad I could help. I was worried about being too critical. I can feel your pain in your words. I understand. Nice thing about being here is that when people say they understand - it actually means something because we are all in these horrible situations.
I feel for you as well because I was OS by myself when a 7 year R busted, and it is lonely. which makes it all the more difficult. And a 20+ year M - well thats gotta suck. Take care Smothy. Please consider adding to your mantra to go easy on yourself.
i believe you Smothy. I believe you want it. And I believe you can do it. I'm glad I could help. I was worried about being too critical. I can feel your pain in your words. I understand. Nice thing about being here is that when people say they understand - it actually means something because we are all in these horrible situations.
I feel for you as well because I was OS by myself when a 7 year R busted, and it is lonely. which makes it all the more difficult. And a 20+ year M - well thats gotta suck. Take care Smothy. Please consider adding to your mantra to go easy on yourself.
I wrote this on my other thread;
I am going to be be focussed on getting detached. I have given myself a few stern words and used the stop sign someone wrote about. ATM, it seems I am doing this quite frequently. I know this will slow down.
I want to do this and believe that I can too, thank you for cheering me on. Last night, I allowed myself to get angry and punched a few pillows!
Anytime Smothy
. Just look for the Py in the Sky.
Good to see 25 on your thread. That will be a big help to you.
Last night, I allowed myself to get angry and punched a few pillows!
I think that this is a great way to help release anger, or go walk in the woods and SCREAM!!
I hit the beach - (almost) winter here but always a winner. Calm, soothing. Even ferocious - my anger is minuscule and petty compared to choppy seas. Storms are my favourite
I hit the beach - (almost) winter here but always a winner. Calm, soothing. Even ferocious - my anger is minuscule and petty compared to choppy seas. Storms are my favourite
When I lived by the coast in the UK with my parents, I loved sitting on the rocks watching the Atlantic Ocean whenever I had something to think about.
Here, my favourite place is down by the river. The waters always calms me.
Last night, I allowed myself to get angry and punched a few pillows!
I think that this is a great way to help release anger, or go walk in the woods and SCREAM!!
Not so good when I was screaming profanities to H! Lol
Australia sound like a good option right now, winter or not!
its a big country mate. we extend from sunny, tropical climate all the way down to cold, rainy, UK type climate. W's here are just as much trouble too
Ha ha. Yeah, us Brits think it's like Neighbours every day! Have a good one (I guess it's nighttime in AUS) or some good sleep.
early evening ~7PM. I'm a night owl anyway. No kids week for me so still at work. cheers - Py
I hit the beach - (almost) winter here but always a winner. Calm, soothing. Even ferocious - my anger is minuscule and petty compared to choppy seas. Storms are my favourite
Hi pyrite
Funny, I'm not angry any more. I'm more sad for her, but I'm mostly sad for S9. Poor wee chap is caught in the middle of something that is not his doing but will need to live with the scars of this for the rest of his life. The most constant and precious thing in his life, his mum and dad, are no longer a unit. And the thing is, with the WW they always come out with the same old cr*p about kids being resilient. The selfishness has no bounds.
Yeah Pyrite
Heard that one. Kids know something's not right. It'll scar them forever. Selfishness knows no bounds.
Start a new thread. - Cadet