Was reminded again by Cadet to start a new thread.
Last thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555932#Post2555932First thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555875&page=1Didn't really want to start a new thread until I had something nice to say.
Backsliding. Rough week. It's always a rough week without my Ds. I'm still feeling/maintaining detachment from my W, but feeling loss of the family. It doesn't help one little bit that I am blaming myself for the whole mess.
Self-forgiveness is a big problem ATM. I have meditated at stages throughout my life, and only really began to heal at all when I started meditating again a couple of months back. I have read about some forgiveness exercises that I know I should get on top of ASAP. But its like telling a depressed person to "cheer up". I dont want to, I want to wallow in self-pity. I will turn around soon, I always do as I get closer to my week with the girls, and during.
What I really feel like is a hug
. Someone to hug. At least the WAS' have that.
Starting with a reply.
Z: I am going write that email and CC the mediator, or at least sit on it over the weekend.
So if in a year from now my W started talking about reconciliation, I'd be like "shoot". I thought I was going to avoid the hard painful work of piecing, I thought I was going to meet someone else and have a fresh chance at a great R. Now I've got to debate whether I am willing to reinvest in this person that I'm not confident will be able to hold her end, and a person that has enough negative history with me that the first year or two would be really difficult instead of really exciting.
I can appreciate that. Even now I feel like if she came back with open arms, it would be next to impossible. Going back has never been an option. There is too much hurt ATM to go forwards. So it would just be like being bogged. In the future I can imagine starting a new relationship with another W, but I can't imagine ever being/feeling that way with her again. I can't imagine even being anything but detached friends with her (eventually), let alone nervous and excited, touching her hair and anticipating that first kiss.
I am open to negotiation though, and trying. Not so much for the sake of the M per se, but for the sake of the family (of which the M is the cornerstone).
I know it has only been 3-4 months since BD, but I haven't really seen any sign of things going that way. She is angry, and perhaps getting angrier as I get darker, as DBing predicts, but that is it. Hardly a positive. Well feels that way. All other actions have been towards D, selling house etc. My feeling is that this is just slipping further away. R with OM might turn out to be lifelong, but it won't fall apart before D is finalised. He wants permanent residency among other things. I have met him remember, before he was a known threat.
I am *ready to want to* scrap the idea of a R with W, put it down to learning the hard way, do the hard yards for me and another future relationship. I know this is supposed to have been the idea all along but like I was trying to explain to a friend. I have always known it was pronounced "A" but now I really understand that its pronounced "A". You see the difference
gee thanks Cadet - very helpful
Didn't really want to start a new thread until I had something nice to say.
I was always told that starting new threads sometimes could spur us to change.
Or vice versa.
So maybe this is an opportunity!
lets hope so. I am already feeling a lot better than I was. no particular reason other than time. I have talked too a few people as well. my sister in detail about the past week.
Reading DR. I am still disappointed that it almost entirely talks about pre-seperation. Constant reminders of exactly what I should've done in the M. Maybe I am supposed to think it is not too late for me to work through for the sake of my next R. Whether this is with my W or not is irrelevant?
She emailed me.
She finally paid some bills.
Because she doesn't read my emails, she paid the wrong amounts. She owes me money as well.
she asked questions, to which i also need to reply.
she finished with - "pal try and respond professionally"
i should let it wait, nothing is so urgent that it can't wait a few days. but I dont need to, there is no point. it would just be vindictive.
advice?
she asked questions, to which i also need to reply.
she finished with - "pal try and respond professionally
what is the need?
What was wrong with what you told yourself?
i should let it wait, nothing is so urgent that it can't wait a few days. but I dont need to, there is no point. it would just be vindictive.
thanks. i drafted a response, but haven't sent.
the NEED is 1. that she asked directly, 2. i have to clarify for her what payments are required.
hehe - my own advice includes both reply and dont.
reply: i normally would reply straight away. one dont reply argument is to make her wait but that is just being nasty. i am not trying to punish her.
dont: i dont want to appear to be sitting around at her beck and call.
so i'm going with dont? i can always send later, i can't take it back.
these games are doing my head in. I keep looking for signs of her tone in the email. Did she use my name, a signature, why the baiting remark at the end. BTW my drafted response is emotion-less
dont: i dont want to appear to be sitting around at her beck and call.
so i'm going with dont? i can always send later, i can't take it back.
Agreed ^^^^
these games are doing my head in. I keep looking for signs of her tone in the email. Did she use my name, a signature, why the baiting remark at the end.
Pointless waste of YOUR head space!
Pointless waste of YOUR head space!
I agree with this 100%, yet I am guilty of the same thing. At first, I was always trying to read between the lines. As I gradually became more detached, I have done less and less of this.
Pyrite- Do you think you are really detached? It seems like you are letting go. I think once I mentally got to that stage... everything has come a lot easier. Yes, I've only been at this for a few months and have made some huge blunders, but once I refused to let her control my emotions, it has been truly empowering. However, I'm not sure it is possible to COMPLETELY detach, but I'm finding it a lot easier to steer my thoughts away once they come into my head.
Pyrite- Do you think you are really detached?
Thanks SD - (and Cadet) - Short answer NO. Longer answer - infinitely better than what I was. I can "steer" my thought away with much more control. If I choose I can let her into my thoughts and when I become uncomfortable I can shut it off. But they are sneaky little buggers, sometimes these destructive thoughts get in under my "boundary" and head straight for the tower.
Sadly these thoughts that get through are usually the strongest of those trying, and come with a twist, usually rational, logistic, to do with my Ds and their future, etc - or combinations thereof.
periods associated with the grief cycling i feel have been extended, and I am "happier" for longer periods in between anger, depression etc. but when the depression for e.g. does take hold, i feel like it is stronger than before. good news is though that i am also better equipped to handle it.
Hey Py, one thing I did that was helpful for email/text was the STBX "translator" technique. You might have seen this if you read through my old threads.
Basically I rewrite her email or text to me in a more friendly way. Suddenly texts that seem impossible to respond to are easy to do so without any defensiveness or hostility.
So if she writes: Whatever you're telling D about me you need to stop. I don't say anything negative about you and whatever happens between you and I has nothing to do with her. She needs both parents and you're only hurting her when you do talk bad about me.
Hmmmmm.......hard to respond to, isn't it?
So rewrite it the way you'd have liked to see it: Py, what's happened between us is very difficult for our D. We're both trying our best to look out for her, but I'm concerned she's blaming herself or me for what's going on. I'm trying really hard to watch what I say around her, and I know you love her as much as I do and are probably aware of this so please continue to do the same. No matter what happens I want to be able to work together with you to make sure D is ok and has a good R with both of us.
That's easier to reply to! Now you could reply to that rewritten email like this: W, I agree it's hard to watch D in pain and the best thing for her is to feel safe and loved from both her parents. I appreciate you putting her first in all you do and I will follow your lead and do the same. You're right that whatever else happens we need to work together so she can have a good R with both of us. Sincerely, Py.
Now- see how the response to the rewritten email actually works for the scathing one? And how it was validating, non-defensive, and collaborative?
I used that when I worked for a boss that sent scathing emails and it helped me tremendously. Let me know what you think.
fantastic advice
! thanks.
i have usually edited my emails until they are "clean" and then end it with
Thanks, Py.
then I have to re-edit so everything fits with that signature.
But your suggestion of reframing he message first is even better. i love it.
ps - I have paused on reading your earlier posts. Last week wasn't the best week to start. Given I know the end and I really am/was still hopeful for my W to come back. I say "am/was" - because as I posted on last thread towards the end. I am "ready to want to" abandon that hope. NOT because I dont want my family back, I do. But wanting it so badly is holding me back from letting go, and I need to let go for my own futures' sake. And that is the best chance I have of achieving anything I want, including my W back. I think I'm on the right track. Feel free to whack me again if I'm not. Ironically, again, this was my position before as well, but now I "really" want to LET GO, before I wanted to LET GO, but not "really". You see the difference
Makes sense, just remember we don't always know what's best for us. I've learned to just trust that God will take care of me if I stop getting in his way and trying to force my will.
Also, you don't know the end of my sitch because it's not over. And I've never been so happy in my darn life. Some regrets, some aches, but I'm not reading articles on how to use plastic bags and helium to end things painlessly like I was during my M either
Unfortunately I have never been religious. I am/was very spiritual though. My interpretation of God would seem blasphemous to believers as it is ....unorthodox lets say. So I wont go there in case I do offend. BUT I have always believed that it is good to believe in something and better to believe in something good. I say "am/was" again because my spirituality has fallen by the wayside in recent years. Re-emerging now.
I expect a long road of failures and wrong turns. My SF quoted to me back in February, "Happiness is not a destination, its in the journey." So there is no "over", there is just where you are at now. Good for you. I hope to get there one day.
I also am not reading those articles any more which is great. Recently though I have "thought" about it. I think there is an element of "desensitization" in there which makes it easy to consider. It is not all consuming as it once was in the M though.
Anyway, two social engagements ahead of me this weekend. Stag, no kids, but thats life and the calendar I guess.
thanks for everyones help this far.
-Py
I want to be in that place where I REALLY want to detach! I keep telling myself I am letting go, but something happens and I am back to hopefulness and or despair.
My BF has just given me a smack round the head (not literally) she is thousands of miles away. She said to me it seems so sudden to me because H is so far down this road than me, if I don't let go, I will never catch up and accept my reality and this will always hurt me.
Sorry that was the feedback that you got. That's similar to telling someone to just "get over it". Or telling someone with depression to just "snap out of it".
The problem is that your emotions are part of you. If you decide in your head "I won't feel upset anymore because there's no reason to", all you are really doing is disconnecting with your feelings and suppressing them. They will still influence your life, even if they do so in a way that is to prove they don't have control over you.
Like my therapist- he once told me my life was controlled by fear. I challenged him because I face fear all the time. I take on roles at my job that push me well out of my comfort zone, I play pool for high stakes in front of lots of spectators betting on the match and it freaks me out, etc. I feel like every day I seek out and overcome my fears. My IC replied "Like I said, you are controlled by fear. I didn't say you were running from it. But because of your fear your life evolves around daily battles against scary situations to try to 'overcome' your fears".
Point is if you suppress emotions, even when you feel like they aren't controlling you they play a big role. You MUST take time to sit with them, understand them, and then GROW- which is nothing more than learning where they come from and starting to see things differently so the feelings retract gradually. Negative feelings are signs from the universe we need to learn something. Woe to those that try to ignore those lessons.
I agree with detachment as being a major goal for DBing...I just think there's a difference between going through the process, learning those lessons, growing, truly changing your point of view, and achieving a point where your emotions no longer flare up because they no longer have things to tell you...vs. suppressing, compensating, medicating, avoiding, distracting, and lots of other things people do to try to convince themselves they are detached.
Slow and steady is the way of this journey, there are no short cuts. When you can accept that head on you'll be on your way to peace.
Smothy,
i get unravelled ALL the time. I am having a great day. Wall behind me that is boundary to W is in place. I can peek over without breaking apart. I can see in front of me. I'm controlling me. BUT then "something" happens. it has happened a dozen times before but one e.g. is that a letter arrives adressed to my wife, her maiden name. In the first week after separation she too off her ring, changed her name everywhere, and ordered new business cards.
Then its back to square one for me.
It kills me as well when my W says she is hurting so much. Fine, I can understand that she is, and I played a big part in her making the final decision to walk-away. But she has moved on. On the days when I dont have the girls I am, or have been a wreck. On the days when she doesnt have the girls she is at the movies, or a restaurant, or in bed with OM.
Has she grown as Zeus has discussed. I dont believe so at all - if she had we would not be where we are, she would be whacking me up side the head to grow together. She has compensated/avoided/distracted her way out of it. Do I envy this? superficially - absolutely! Really, no, because when the fog clears those same issues which were an issue for me in the R will still be there. One of the biggies was that I didn't seem to be the person she was in love with so no amount of growing would fix that. Her other issues that could be developed - are they show stoppers, would they cause her future relationships to suffer? STOP!!! WTF am i doing - i'm worried about the possibilities in her R future in 2-3 years time.
Rewind - "It kills me as well when my W says she is hurting so much." I think this is where I need to stop myself. OK it is hurtful for her, not LIKE it is for me, maybe more or less than me, but i'm not in place to help her. she doesn't want me in that place anyway. spitefully, out of anger, i want her to recognise how much she has hurt me and feel how she has let me down. this comes full circle, that was how our M became.
sorry Smothy, this is becoming a cathartic exercise for me. I think after the first time we separated (she left) when we were dating (because I was focused on my study and neglected her) i put the reigns on her. I never had to pull the reigns though because the next few years were great. Then, for whatever reason (babies, project house ,etc), things weren't so great. I felt neglected. leaving was not an option for me, I tried to get through to her (IF ONLY i had've done a better job, tried harder, etc ), so I pulled the reigns and tried to whip her into shape. i got her jumping through some hoops, but ultimately pulled harder and harder on the reigns - until one day they snapped.
so Again, like Zeus' story, FEAR lead me to putting on the reigns and then pulling them until they snapped. Good news for me is that now I am sitting here with broken reigns and I am faced with either going out and getting me some new reigns or abandoning the need for them.
I dont know really how you can judge your progress in terms of NOT letting fear control your life (negatively) without being or putting yourself into that situation. But i think you can realise when that's what you WANT to do and be like. Right now I know that a R is out of the question, with anyone, especially my W, because I am more scared than ever. but i do WANT to not be scared. I would love to be able to honestly say I am not scared of a future in which my W is not part, my family is gone.
Of course, there is one overlying thing (my W) which I can say would alleviate my feeling scared. But I can't change that, or work on that. All I can do is work on the underlying reasons. The things I am telling myself she would give me. Provide those things for myself and maybe I won't be so scared. Then a R would just be like icing on the cake, and not be required to make the cake.
that more addressed the despair side of it - but i think you hit the nail on the head - the hopefulness is equally as bad.
i used to think NOT. i used to think that reigniting my hope by reading between the lines of an email or something was a positive. but really I was just pushing away "letting go" - STILL DO. will do for quite some time i expect. but i think this is where you have to get to. and as Z said you can compensate/medicate etc which is what 99% of WAS/LBS seem to do- and i must say it is NOT like these ppl learn nothing. well not always - so I think there is benefit to compensating, distracting etc - because you do need to forcibly heal at times - just not ignoring.
She said to me it seems so sudden to me because H is so far down this road than me, if I don't let go, I will never catch up and accept my reality and this will always hurt me.
i get exactly this same advice almost everyday. it is perhaps over simplistic and not commensurate with DBing but i dont think it wrong or completely at odds with DBing either. "accepting your reality" - thats the hard bit I think.
In my case, my W has said in no uncertain terms to many ppl, that she is never going back. She is 100% the victim, has practically been battered, will never forgive me, will never say sorry for anything she has done or said. In reality this is only hardening with time, and her new life with OM draws a firm hard line against me. I am becoming a smaller and more distant past. She isn't softening, she isn't analyzing the M and what part she played. She has moved on and moving further on everyday. She is convinced the kids are better off now and will life will only improve for them. Better off now is absolutely wrong, improve is a certainty, but maybe they would have suffered if W stayed in M for another year.
So "reality" is that there is almost no chance she will ever want to come back. Then there is where I am at as well. BUT maybe we can also include in that reality that "I am going to be a better person at the other end" and "their decision to leave and/or their decision/non-decision about coming back" is not going to change that.
So "reality" is that there is almost no chance she will ever want to come back.
That is an EXPECTATION.
Py, nothing is harder than Limbo. Nothing is harder than being out of control. If we can't control our WAW back, it's easy to declare them gone forever, just because at least then we can try to accept it and move on. For some they actually do things to burn bridges just so there is closure. I'm glad you're not doing that. Now go the next step and accept the unknown.
I've got another verse I've quoted once before from Cat's Cradle, it just goes to show how deep our need to have all the answers runs. Just remember that we never get the answers. We just make them up because we're afraid of the unknown...
Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly,
Man got to sit and wonder why, why why?
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.
Py, nothing is harder than Limbo. Nothing is harder than being out of control. If we can't control our WAW back, it's easy to declare them gone forever, just because at least then we can try to accept it and move on. For some they actually do things to burn bridges just so there is closure. I'm glad you're not doing that. Now go the next step and accept the unknown.
great to hear from you Zeus. i am determined not to bourn any more bridges than I already have. If I had've consulted you/here at BD, i reckon we would be reconciling now - maybe? I was out of control angry after week 3, and I reckon I burnt enough bridges to strand myself. But yes - embrace the unknown. Easier said than done unfortunately.
-Py
Thanks Cadet - thats the sort of "Dont write yourself off" encouragement i need
Hey, I dont wanna read to much into this, so i will ask you guys. My W has emailed me 3 times in the past week. Nothing to suggest anything more than she is taking care of some things, nicely left dinner in fridge for post changeover with the girls.
anyway, this probably means nothing - even though she didn't email for 2 months, but she just sent another - should i reply "Thanks", or should I hold. Should I make holding always a rule? Even when it is quite an arbitrary reply.
Hey, I dont wanna read to much into this, so i will ask you guys. My W has emailed me 3 times in the past week. Nothing to suggest anything more than she is taking care of some things, nicely left dinner in fridge for post changeover with the girls.
anyway, this probably means nothing - even though she didn't email for 2 months, but she just sent another - should i reply "Thanks", or should I hold. Should I make holding always a rule? Even when it is quite an arbitrary reply.
Is this something you NEED to respond to?
is that the rule?
I dont NEED to for any other reason than courtesy really, or appear courteous, not angry with her. Although, having just now said that - i think it is a bit "sucky". In which case - I'm going with NO ?
First, I just posted on Ten's thread, check it out
OK- easy to overthink this question so I will.
Obviously you don't want to be pursuing.
You don't want to allow her to treat you poorly and respond positively.
You don't want to always respond immediately.
You don't want to say too much as we know she'll find a way to negatively interpret almost anything
You do want to appear mature and calm
You do want to showcase your true self
You do want to allow her to continue to communicate with you
I believe you should operate with the following rules:
-Don't reply when she's rude. Do reply when she's courteous.
-Be brief in your replies.
-Use the 80% rule. Respond with 80% of the warmth she extends. (let her lead on this, don't crowd her, let her come to you)
-OK to reply quickly some of the time, just not every time. I wouldn't wait all of the time because then it looks like you're playing games.
Finally- don't read too much into it. My WAW sent me increasingly nice emails the entire time she was with OM, then talked about reconciliation, then she 180'd and pulled away hard, never looking back since.
So NO EXPECTATIONS. I can't predict the future but I doubt things are just going to warm up little by little and start a fire again. Reality is it could be a year of moving on, then a rock bottom, then another year passing, then her looking you up when the dust has settled. Or she might never look back. Or she will get warm, then pull away again. Yes, it's possible it just falls back together, but honestly you'll drive yourself crazy and only hurt your chances by reattaching. So follow that plan, and let it go.
is that the rule?
I dont NEED to for any other reason than courtesy really, or appear courteous, not angry with her. Although, having just now said that - i think it is a bit "sucky". In which case - I'm going with NO ?
There are NO rules.
You do what's best for YOU!!
i think she would appreciate courtesy - but however long this would take to set in as a pattern, I think she would interpret it as though we've reached another plateau. I dont want her to plateau, I want her think "oh he didn't even say Thank-you, is he that rude/indifferent/angry". Obviously I dont want her to think rude or angry. Quite possibly she wouldn't give this a seconds thought. but it is all I have. We will have mediation in 2 days time, to discuss children. ATM we are in separate rooms, but I am considering requesting for face-face contact. Although, if i screw this up, I can't take it back. And not just WRT to W, but custody sitch. So i should leave it and wait for another opportunity I guess.
i should leave it and wait for another opportunity I guess.
I think that is a good idea
"I dont want her to plateau, I want her think "oh he didn't even say Thank-you, is he that rude/indifferent/angry". Obviously I dont want her to think rude or angry. "
Everything is about what YOU WANT or DON'T WANT. You keep trying to control her thoughts. Just do what you think needs to be done and not think about what her reaction will be.
this is getting old Mr Bond. Context. DBing is manipulative. There are even passages devoted to this in DR.
My controlling is nowhere near the league you are implying. I never forced her to do anything. My reaction was to be grumpy, or rather just sad. Reading all the other posts here in the same vain - I am small fry.
What I think needs to be done? hmmmm. I think my girls deserve a family AND that wasn't that far out of reach not so long ago. I would like to get back there. The biggest obstacle to working in this is her attitude. So yes, as per the LRT, explicitly, I am attempting to solicit a response from her that is conducive to the direction I want things to go.
i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME. But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. And whether I have or not is not something my W will even be in a position to judge while she has this attitude. If she judges I have not then we can go our separate ways, and I have more work to do for myself.
"DBing is manipulative."
Still don't get it do you? Myself and others have already been through this with you. DB is not manipulative. It's doing what you should have been doing in the first place. Doing what gets a positive response in your WAS. That's how you were when you first dated and got M'd. You forgot that along the way.
"My controlling is nowhere near the league you are implying."
Really? All I did was point out what YOU wrote. You don't seem to get that yet.
"I never forced her to do anything. My reaction was to be grumpy, or rather just sad. Reading all the other posts here in the same vain - I am small fry."
Then you need to read the posts more carefully. Especially the ones from those of us who actually saved our M's.
"The biggest obstacle to working in this is her attitude. So yes, as per the LRT, explicitly, I am attempting to solicit a response from her that is conducive to the direction I want things to go.
i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME. But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. "
You really don't get it do you? You haven't changed. You keep saying you have, yet time and time again you've proven in your actions and words here that you haven't. Then when you get called out on it, rather than going through and seeing what we pointed out that you haven't realized, you insist on saying we're wrong and you're right.
There is alot of resentment in you, I get that. But you can't let it go. Like I mentioned before, I've seen dozens of posters like you and they all sounded like you. They never saved their M's because they were more interested in talking than listening. But that's your choice.
i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME.
But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. "
You really don't get it do you? You haven't changed. You keep saying you have, yet time and time again you've proven in your actions and words here that you haven't. Then when you get called out on it, rather than going through and seeing what we pointed out that you haven't realized, you insist on saying we're wrong and you're right.
There is alot of resentment in you, I get that. But you can't let it go. Like I mentioned before, I've seen dozens of posters like you and they all sounded like you. They never saved their M's because they were more interested in talking than listening. But that's your choice.
Mr Bond is spot on in his advice here.
DB'ing is counterintuitive, so sometime what seems like should be up is down and when you think you should look left it is right.
If you are acting the same way in real life as you act here you are going to be in for a long ride.
DB101 says start with a beginners mind
Throw everything you "know" out the window and start from scratch.
Whether the biggest obstacle is YOU or not - the only person that YOU can CONTROL is YOU.
SO that is the best place to start.
Hahaha Py. You got in trouble
Sorry man, I know how you feel. As you know I am supercompetitive, and if you read my last post you'll know I was in a halfway house for a while to get back on the grid. Well, the whole time I was there counselors were all over the place. Anything you did was a diagnosis. If you thought someone was overreacting you were "defensive". If you got irritated with something you had an "anger issue". Shoot, I wasn't even allowed to play chess with the others because I had a "gaming addiction".
It got to the spot where I was just like "sheesh, these people are the crazy ones!"
Then a funny thing happened. We had group therapy. I listened to everyone else's stories and was just like "wtf, these people are whacked". They would tell stories about their lives, and the counselors would call them on stuff, and they'd rationalize, twist and squirm, and avoid facing reality. I remember thinking they were all crazy, and none of them were accountable. One by one. No one would own their *&@$. They all had problems. None of them would admit it.
Then the counselor got to me and I thought he was crazy because he kept pushing and prodding, challenging, and I was like "dude, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, I'm fine".
It finally hit me- maybe...just maybe...if everyone else in this room had problems and was dodging them...even though I *FELT* fine...maybe I was actually doing the same thing.
And thus I understood the power of group therapy.
Py, it's not all or nothing. It's not like you're horribly flawed, everything you do is wrong, everything you say is stupid, and everything you believe is backwards. Just 98% of it. KIDDING.
But whether you are 20% or 80% on the right track, you're not perfect. And it is WAY too soon for you to think you've got it solved. So when Bond or the others focus on nothing but flaws, you can defend yourself and explain that you're 75% on track or whatever...or you can listen and understand that they're trying to refocus you on the areas you're NOT.
Why don't they give you "props" for the distance you've already come? I had an employee once that was doing a failing job. I would have to terminate him if he didn't hit his sales goals. He made small improvements but was still short of target. I tried to give him "positive reinforcement" about his improvements, I didn't want to be harsh and not recognize where he'd gotten better. But guess what. 60 days later I had to terminate him. Looking back I really wish I'd said "I want to recognize your efforts as improvement, however they are short of target, and I cannot accept this performance because if I do today then I will accept terminating you in 60 days. I don't want to do that so I will tell you that while I appreciate your strives, I need X from you before you leave this week." At least then I would've done my part.
I know you're learning a lot. The fact that you're deliberating on your replies, not doing it reactively, are trying to steer your ship off of character, not burning bridges...those are great starts. But ultimately you want to save your M. That is the goal that matters. Until that happens you have to continue to learn and grow, and that requires humility.
PS- I love your participation in the boards. Keep posting, and relax. This is a marathon, you can't win today.
sorry for my outburst(s).
i will reply further later after I get a chance to read replies again.
my main point is highlighted though in replies - Cadet and Zeus are helpful. Mr Bond is condescending to the point of rudeness. I honestly in no way claim to have clean hands. My point about manipulative and Mr Bonds responses are semantical. IF DBing was as benevolent as Mr Bond seems to be implying then there would be no Step3 to LRT. Watch and Listen to what? Response are irrelevant. Take ownership. You f**ded up. Help her, support her in every way possible to move on with her life. This it. No agenda.
Mr Bond's claim about behaving the way you should have in the M amounts to - rewriting history to your own end, giving yourself a second chance. You dont deserve one - let her go, without a fight. Fight implies you have a position. And your position is NOT important. what YOU think is irrelevant. It is about what she wants.
oh and BTW - I have no commitment to what I am saying, in regards to a lot of things, I am simply arguing for the sake of it. Another thing which was not good in the M. Not like MrBond will no doubt assume. In a lot of Rs, friends, colleagues - all of us play devil's advocate, to provoke further thinking, discussion, and in scienctific research it is VITAL. One reason climate skeptics are way off base. We have given ourselves a much harsher, thorough and valid grilling than they ever have.
However, I do believe that my wanting to save the M is ultimately self serving. However this is achieved, SHE believes it is already over. I would like to know how you have convinced yourselves that it is not. I could argue "for the kids", but again, I believe it would be best. Not HER.
It is about what she wants.
NO it is not about
SHE at all.
It is about YOU
We dont know her at all and SHE is not here, YOU are here.
So YOU are the one that we are trying to help.
The FOCUS must not be on her, she is on her own journey separate from YOU.
You can not CONTROL her, only you can control yourself!
You do understand that right?
Still don't get it do you? Myself and others have already been through this with you. DB is not manipulative. It's doing what you should have been doing in the first place. Doing what gets a positive response in your WAS. That's how you were when you first dated and got M'd. You forgot that along the way.
rewriting history to your own end, giving yourself a second chance. SHE has decided its over, respect that, let her find "what you had when you were first dating". Maybe with OM. Maybe with the next one. Hopefully it lasts for her. What makes you think it won't. thats imposing your diagnosis. what makes you right?
So I sense a contradiction here. All of this "conspiring" to solicit a response, whether it be counter intuitive or not VERSUS this talk of YOU dont know or it doesn't matter what YOU want.
You can not CONTROL her, only you can control yourself!
You do understand that right?
I do Cadet.
Another way I can think of it is in terms of this "contradiction". How can I let go to the extent of giving her my blessing so to speak, AND at the same time want to resurrect the M. OK, I suspect that this may be exactly what I should be aiming for, but every 2nd post (exaggerated) seems to be about action to take in order to solicit a positive response. This doesn't gel for me.
You can not CONTROL her, only you can control yourself!
You do understand that right?
I do Cadet.
Another way I can think of it is in terms of this "contradiction". How can I let go to the extent of giving her my blessing so to speak, AND at the same time want to resurrect the M. OK, I suspect that this may be exactly what I should be aiming for, but every 2nd post (exaggerated) seems to be about action to take in order to solicit a positive response. This doesn't gel for me.
I understand it doesnt gel for you,
no one said that letting go is giving your blessing.
It has taken me a very long time to understand all the dynamics that occur here.
I have read over 30 books on the subjects and taken some online classes.
I am only going to say DO THE WORK and you too will understand.
Knowledge is Power.
Do you want to do that?
Thanks Zeus.
I know you're learning a lot. The fact that you're deliberating on your replies, not doing it reactively, are trying to steer your ship off of character, not burning bridges...those are great starts. But ultimately you want to save your M. That is the goal that matters. Until that happens you have to continue to learn and grow, and that requires humility.
PS- I love your participation in the boards. Keep posting, and relax. This is a marathon, you can't win today.
There is a lot I could reply to but I am a bit lost right now. I am actually sitting on my daughters bed. 3 nights in a row now she just cries in the middle of the night. She is back to sleep now, but I want to be here if she wakes up again. I would sleep with her (as is very common - but it only early here)
I feel I should tell you more about what I have learned about myself over the last few weeks. But this is still a work in progress. I have glossed over external results of those things, which I know I need to put in place OR things which have helped me to "Achieve" certain things. This is perhaps what gives the impression that I think I have actually achieved these things. But this absolutely untrue. I am still a mess. I spent the last 3 hours of last nights sleep wide awake. Ranging from giving my wife my my "blessing" to leave TO wording my one liner to show her how much she has hurt me and how much I hate her.
When I have the girls, the fist thing I have in the morning is 1-2 hours with the little one (early riser). She melts my heart. Then D4 comes a racing into my arms. Off weeks is another story though. D4 has been more and more ...."vocal" about restoring M and family
.
I get a lot out of being here. Posting, reading and even getting 2*4'ed. I even (can) appreciate Mr Bond's criticisms. Just at times I feel he is overboard. Sometimes he is right, I admit that, but sometimes he seems to be missing the context comments were even made in.
I have learnt so much in the short time I have been here. I sense skepticism form pretty much everybody, but I really have. i'll talk more about this another time. I have changed my behaviour. I'm sure people around me have noticed. I have noticed. And I dont see myself falling away from this and back into old habits (I hope), but it still feels .....empty.
absolutely. Can't tonight though. Kids. custody mediation tomorrow. back to WORK in a few days. meanwhile "practising" what I can with people around me.
I get a lot out of being here. Posting, reading and even getting 2*4'ed. I even (can) appreciate Mr Bond's criticisms. Just at times I feel he is overboard. Sometimes he is right, I admit that, but sometimes he seems to be missing the context comments were even made in.
I have learnt so much in the short time I have been here. I sense skepticism form pretty much everybody, but I really have. i'll talk more about this another time. I have changed my behaviour. I'm sure people around me have noticed. I have noticed. And I dont see myself falling away from this and back into old habits (I hope), but it still feels .....empty.
First of all being here is like eating an elephant.
The task is very daunting at first, but the only way to do it is one bite at a time.
We have all been in the same place as you, including Mr Bond.
I was sure that I could find a CURE - Nope didn't happen.
Our journey is not all that much different than our spouses, although we may be miles ahead of them.
Until we hit rock bottom, we wont do the work and change either, cause people dont change until the PAIN of changing is less than the PAIN of staying the same.
I wish this was easier, it is not!
I can tell you the basics are all contained in my very first post.
Detach, GAL, and take care of YOURSELF.
Including eating, sleeping, and exercising.
I have someone else that I am advising that works fours jobs and sleeps maybe 2 hours out of every 48, I have begged and pleaded with him to take care of himself, did he.
NOPE
Even after totaling his car in a car accident, so I dont know what will work.
I know that I can't FIX him as he is just a poster on a marriage board.
Please get some sleep Pyrite and take care of YOURSELF!
Thanks Cadet.
I was sure that I could find a CURE - Nope didn't happen.
Our journey is not all that much different than our spouses, although we may be miles ahead of them.
Until we hit rock bottom, we wont do the work and change either, cause people dont change until the PAIN of changing is less than the PAIN of staying the same.
Superficially it would appear W is miles ahead of me! I know I shouldn't be daydreaming about HER life, but as I have commented before, it is entirely possible that she moves on from here without changing anything about herself and lives a full and happy life. Many people do just that. As there are also many people who take the mainstream path after D, even the LBS, and find a new R in which they are happy. i.e. Even when they dont consciously address the issues for which they are responsible and lead to the end of the M.
Sometimes they do address the issues in a manner by outwardly behaving differently, which they can do without ever coming to grips with the underlying cause. Sometimes they choose a partner which is better suited or at least better suited to conforming with their personality issues. Sometimes they are just lucky.
I'm not saying I want to be one of them, and I'm not saying that I even can be. The prevailing attitude of THOSE people seems to be that it was the S's fault and subsequent loss. Essentailly the were RIGHT. I do envy these people though. They seem to move on much easier than what I am.
I'm sure I have hit the bottom. And I have affected changes in my Rs with others already. I have sub-consciously done 180s all over the place, and I am GALing. I am not "changed" but I am changing. Being changed will I dont think ever be achieved and finished - all i can hope for is maintaining focus and keep changing. With this in mind, I would love for my W to be part of this. For the supportive environment for me, but most of all for my children. D4 is stressed out and no 4 year old should be in this position. i'm going to look into child psychologists ASAP.
Hey Py,
Just posted something on Parker's thread I'd like you to check out as well. Make me think about the difference between changing behavior vs changing outlook, and seemed relevant to your last paragraph. Also I think we're all wired kinda similarly so it might be applicable.
Beyond that, I can tell you I've had these same thoughts. So many people just rebound, medicate, etc. Why are we doing all of this? I've got a few answers.
1. It will increase our chances of reconciliation or a better M in the future.
2. You will live knowing you've done the best job you can to be the best man you can be.
3. (often overlooked) Just because other people rebound, medicate, and end up married...doesn't mean they achieve serenity. NO ONE KNOWS whether an M is happy or not except for the people in it. Even if they tell you they're happy, that's not a sign. Remember how many WAS's insist they love their partner and were happy a week before they BD? That's because no one is more convincing then someone trying to convince themselves.
I've got a hell of a lot on my mind and my posts are already too long...I'm still organizing my thoughts...but it has to do with my discovery of how deep my expectations that a M was supposed to make me happy ran. But some things have come together that have really shown me this experience has been NECESSARY for ME to have a shot at a happy future. I'll keep marinating this and will hopefully be able to express is soon. Just know the work is worth it. And in some ways I'm JUST NOW starting some of the real work. After 10 months of daily reflection (which followed a life of introspection).
Oh, there's one more reason I left out to do the work...to keep love and commitment alive. Sometimes I get discouraged by how superficial marriages are that so many people walk away. Like are love, bonds, family, and commitment so disposable they can't withstand a few bad years or character flaws?
But then I say...what if I DO work through this and save my M? Then maybe love, bonds, family, and commitment are not only not disposable, they may actually be strong enough to last through abuse, separation, adultery, alcoholism, porn addiction, divorce, suicide attempts, and the tremendous pain caused on both sides. THAT would be a pretty cool love to have.
It's being tested. I can't control WAW's half. But I'd like to live in a world where that type of love and commitment exists. So I guess I'll do my part and feel good about it.
" it is entirely possible that she moves on from here without changing anything about herself and lives a full and happy life."
Why do you think she needs to "change" her life? She already has, and in her eyes, for the better.
Very uplifting - Thanks Zeus - making the world a better place, (fixing) one (f***ed up) LBS at a time.
I have held on to that romantic image since soon after BD. Specifically as I have said before I want to look back on this in 20 years time as the period which gave us the best M.
So many superficially "defined" Ms abound. Some of my closest friends are in them. My W and I used to wonder/laugh at them. Now look who's laughing. I Will check out Parker's thread.
1. and 2. - definitely. 3.- is beyond my scope, in all interpretations. I think we could have the above - but as MrBond would/should chastise me "It is not about what YOU think". Which is correct. SO maybe this is what I am saying, 3. is not a legitimate reason. 3. is about HER. and should be irrelevant to self-focussed DBing, BUT it is almost at the core in so far as the "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE" enticement on the home page. Although this is not so straightforward a call. My point to NoleGirl was that this becomes incredibly blurred when there are kids involved as well, for whom D'ed parents is a life long issue they are subjected to by the two people who I believe should never stop trying to make it work.
Mediation session soon - I am getting nervous. How much am I going to yield for the sake of my girls and/or me wanting custody of my girls? I am in a very different place than I was in the last session. Then I was the one who caved BUT I fiercely objected. Now I am no longer interested in fighting or punishing her. I just want to stay away from a disinterested 3rd party making an arbitrary decision (which 85% of the time is in favour of the Mother [factual statistic from family court]). Following which I will likely cave anyway to regain some ground in an external agreement with the STBX.
It seems to be a very common wiring. Mine is also convoluted with other issues (which no doubt it is in everyone case) which I need to think about more before posting.
this is what i said? Do you acknowledge that the other person is not perfect? As the LBS I am left with knowing everything that i did. As WAS with a new R she can ignore anything that she MIGHT have done. AND
" it is entirely possible that she moves on from here without changing anything about herself and lives a full and happy life."
Her new partner might not have a problem with xxxx for example. xxxx might disappear with this new partner. So this is what i said. I dont think she needs to change her life at all. She has. she thinks it is for the better. And this is likely the case. If she were my daughter for example I would encourage her to acknowledge the things she may have done so she may grow and not repeat. do you perceive there is still a problem? i am not saying what you are implying. i dont want to control her anymore. i recognise that I was and i dont want that.
I had my 2nd custody mediation session today. Since Sep. I have been lucky enough to enjoy 50/50 custody of the kids. So far my W has made no suggestion that she is about to challenge this. Nevertheless I have been anxious about it, waiting for the other shoe to drop. An added complication is that her NEW life somewhat requires relocating to the other side of the city. I have been searching for options that might satisfy her so that I keep my 50% custody. Today she was finally agreeable to at least discuss my suggestions. So this could end up working out quite well for me. Well the best I can hope for in this miserable situation. I am still hesitant to consider this a done deal, but I will enjoy it while it lasts. But that isn't the only reason I have had a great afternoon.
I initiated mediation not long after Sep. as W was unwilling discuss anything real, and custody was the most important thing for me to resolve. D4 is due to start school next year so we need to resolve relocation fairly urgently. Being so raw I advised the mediator that I would prefer separated mediation. I was considering revoking this at this session in the interests of expediting negotiation. However, I decided against requesting this as I could not only damage my DB/LRT/dark stance, but hurt my custody position as well. Anyway, SHE requested this as our face-face encounter last week was amicable enough. I could hardly refuse, and honestly I was glad because I feel that I have come far enough that I could deal with it.
Well, thanks to everyone here who deserve the credit for giving me this much. Especially Zeus, Cadet and my mortal enemy MrBond. I walked out of their feeling great. There were a few tense moments, with the mediator stepping in to stop the conversation, but generally it all went really well. From the outset the mediator surprised me by telling my W that whilst you can't understand why the two of you can't be friends already, you have to accept that this is emotionally difficult for your H as the rejected spouse. Wow - this summed up half of my animosity towards my W. I am angry that she ended the marriage and this is sometimes hard to contain, especially when baited. And here, the mediator expressed everything for me in one introductory statement, meaning for me that I didn't need to get angry and try to make this point. I felt a weight lift from my shoulders, I dint feel the anxiety that I was going to "lose it" to express this.
The funny thing is that W was more stressed and argumentative than me. On several occasions I got the opportunity to diffuse the situation by acknowledging that she was right, or had a good point and I wouldn't do that anymore, or promised to better listen to her comments, questions and be more patient. There were several things that I suggested I was willing to do to support the situation. I even made several jokes, made her and the mediator laugh and made light entertaiing conversation with W while mediator was busy writing. In general W was noticeably taken aback by how cooperative and well I was dealing with this. She was expecting to have a fight on her hands, and I was actually pleasant and helpful. I even had the opportunity to suggest that I'm sorry I was like that a month ago, I'm not interested in proceeding that way now. At the same time though I never really had to say that I had moved on. Not that I strictly have, but the impression I gave was that I have.
And the best part for me was that afterwards I felt like my performance in the afternoon actually gave me the confidence to really move on and consider this future we had been planning without fear. Even excitement. I forget who said it, maybe Toots, but "being open to reconciliation is not the same as waiting". I am appreciating this more and more.
Now - the question for you guys. I would like to be helpful and suggest how she should proceed so she doesn't have to take time off needlessly and even options I could be flexible to accept. Apart from sincerely wanting to help her, wanting my M back, and circumventing several layers of toing and froing, we can cut to the chase faster and my custody sitch is preserved. But is this sucky, too much contact?
"If she were my daughter for example I would encourage her to acknowledge the things she may have done so she may grow and not repeat."
Using those words in terms of your W, if her father told her that, she would say that she has acknowledged what she has done and has grown from it. See you have to understand that even though YOU disagree with your W, SHE feels that this is the path she has to take and that what she's doing is the right thing.
If you want to get her back, you have to work with that understanding. You can get to know this new W of yours and learn from her as well.
Sorry Cadet. Just starting afresh. I thought this one would just fade into the background. Happy to proceed whichever way suits you.
did you get my reply to email notification?
did you get my reply to email notification?
No.
I will combine this with your other thread and edit
No doubt she would. All I am saying is that a therapist, friend, or maybe even you are bound to ask "OK - so he made you unhappy because he was unhappy/depressed.... , and this is your reaction, fine, but why was he unhappy". Lest it was something you did and you are simply headed to repeat. Anyway, I know this is how SHE feels and I dont disagree with her as such. My position has always been that we try to resolve this, we can always D later. She doesn't want to try. Fine, you can't make somebody want something they simply dont want. That doesn't mean I am right or she is right or I am implying either, or I am trying to control what she thinks.
I accept that she feels she has made the right decision. Suggesting that any person might examine alternative view points is not an indication that i dont consider other viewpoints valid. In fact, as a career researcher, on a daily basis you dont understand papers, the maths in a particular model etc AND what I have always considered since day one as a student is "Step 1. Assume that it is ME that doesn't understand. All of this makes perfect sense, I just can't see it (yet)"
But I appreciate your point. That said - you should've seen her yesterday in mediation. She was out-of-control angry. Even the mediator was puzzled. This is not the behaviour of someone who is at peace with themselves. Still, out of my scope. Move along.
OK thanks. IF preferable I will run to 100 posts from now on.
See you have to understand that even though YOU disagree with your W, SHE feels that this is the path she has to take and that what she's doing is the right thing.
If you want to get her back, you have to work with that understanding. You can get to know this new W of yours and learn from her as well.
I think in reality she is conflicted. But that is beside the point. I accept what you are saying and I wish it was that simple. She is not receptive to getting to know each other, but that is understandable. So is her anger. Maybe she will mellow. The family house will be gone etc, but all of that is a small price to pay, a trivial inconvenience. She is determined though, and already on another path. So who knows.
Lots of good things came out of this custody mediation. One is (almost forced, regular) contact. This will be good for the girls even if it does nothing to restore our R. This was missing completely before. I can see there is a glimmer of hope there BUT in general my future window has he first time in months extended beyond a week - which is fantastically liberating. I can only truly feel now how caged I felt.
It's funny, when it comes to controlling behavior I typically thought of things I did to control my WAW. What I didn't think of are the things I do to try to control my entire life.
It is so easy to decide on a future you want, and then to try to force the world to deliver that future to you. When you can't see a way to get what you want it's depressing. When you can't see the path in front of you it's scary.
What I've learned is that we are very, very bad at deciding what we want in life. Most of the time the things we think will make us happy don't, and we miss out on the things that are truly fulfilling as we try to control our way to an illusion.
So when it comes to limbo land, when you can neither have what you want OR see the future...this is a great opportunity to learn HUMILITY (I don't always know what's best for me), FAITH (I trust if I do what's right it will work out), and APPRECIATION (what do I already have that I've overlooked in my efforts to get somewhere else).
And if you practice these traits in your individual perspective, funny enough you'll be less controlling in your interpersonal relationships as well.
That is true. I have (nearly) always been a big planner and organizer. I generally have been trying to appreciate NOW rather than focusing on the past or future. Realistically though I do need to plan. Not moving towards enrolling my daughter in school for example to avoid potential controlling mechanisms could be criticised as .....nutty, neglectful or at least misguided.
I say "nearly always" because there were several years in my youth when I was a free spirit. A drug induced free spirit perhaps. I wonder if it was just being constantly high that made this the happiest time of my life, or maybe letting go also played a part.
I am surprised I got away with my earlier post about my day at mediation without further criticism. Especially by Mr Bond. While I was writing I was anticipating the response "No, what you enjoyed was being in control". And there is truth to that. But there are several things.
Firstly I dont think it is necessarily unhealthy to want to be in control of a situation. Who wants to be controlled? It is unhealthy when it gets to the extreme of destroying a M.
Secondly, in this case I was actually not in control at all. I haven't been in control of any situation with my W since BD. In fact she makes a point of stripping me of control at every opportunity. I dont resent this anymore. I expect it even.
Lastly, the situation turned out well for me because I was in control of ME. Barring two comments that were questionably motivated and i regretted, I actually managed to listen to what she was saying and validate accordingly. What she actually said for the most part I've heard before. But the direction changed dramatically, because I reacted differently. This happened dozens of times in the 2 hour negotiation and she was clearly put off balance. There were occasions where she started to re-respond angrily, and then realised that I hadn't denied it, or agreed to co-operate, or whatever.
Zeus - that will be the subject of my directed meditation this week. HUMILTY, FAITH and APPRECIATION. Thank you for the inspiration.
Hey Py,
Just posted something on Parker's thread I'd like you to check out as well. Make me think about the difference between changing behavior vs changing outlook, and seemed relevant to your last paragraph. Also I think we're all wired kinda similarly so it might be applicable.
Just caught up with this now. You mean about distracting yourself yeah? I have been concerned with this. But I think to some degree it is necessay. For me I forcefully detached which has allowed me enough room to (I think) really detach (at least partially that is, or enough to move on to the next step at least). It is amazing how "plastic" our brains are though. For example, when I was at the mediation I repeatedly told myself at every juncture to focus on listening to Ws comment, validate this and respond in kind, and refrain from pushing my agenda aggressively. Anyway, at some stage I stopped needing to tell myself to focus, it just came naturally. And to be honest I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed doing it, I enjoyed being able to do it, I enjoyed being a nicer person to negotiate with and I enjoyed listening to my W (even though she hates me right now).
(even though she hates me right now).
Something my counselor told me about hate(even thought its mind reading and you don't know how she feels), but hate isn't always a bad thing. It still shows emotion, still shows there's feelings in there(not that that means much either).
People associate hate as the opposite to love when its not, its indifference that's the opposite. Just something I thought about as I was reading your post and figured I would share.
Hope the situation with mediation and your kids custody work out the best for everyone involved. The kids need you just as much her and it would be an injustice to them to have it any other way. Hopefully she can see that also.
People associate hate as the opposite to love when its not, its indifference that's the opposite.
Very true.
And anger can be depression turned inward.
It is something that might be projected onto someone else,
and is many times misinterpreted.
"Especially by Mr Bond. While I was writing I was anticipating the response "No, what you enjoyed was being in control". "
No, what I was concentrating on was your W's reaction during C. That's what you should also have been concentrating on rather than just your control issues.
Thanks Fogg - so i suspect I can even b encouraged by hate
. I am hopeful that joint custody is going to work.
Very true.
And anger can be depression turned inward.
It is something that might be projected onto someone else,
and is many times misinterpreted.
I suspect I had this going on as an added feedback into my lost control resentment issues.
Thanks for chiming in Mr Bond. Actually I was concentrating on her response and I have commented in another post. I am still .....in shock, by how angry she was, without any provocation. She was angry when I didn't bite. She was angry when I validated. She was angry when I conceded. Still it was preferable for all of us than me just being objectionable.
You have to understand that she is getting angry because her life is crumbling around her and you're actually listening for a change. She's getting frustrated and the angry reaction is a good thing.
The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Her anger shows that she's conflicted. If she acted cool with a "I don't care" attitude, then she really doesn't care.
careful MrBond - thats bordering on encouraging
thanks for the insight.
They're all encouraging. But if you're not interested in the way I put things, I'll move on to the next poster. Good luck.
No please dont. I appreciate them very much, even when annoyed sometimes.
On the distraction comment- distraction is necessary in many ways. In fact, you could say our entire lives are to distract ourselves from two extremes- the joy that is the miracle of life, and the fear and sadness that it will end. Those are powerful experiences, but if we walked around all day mind blown by the universe we wouldn't be very effective at living. So we tuck those thoughts away and focus on the small stuff most of the time.
However, distraction can be an addiction. It can be a way to avoid yourself. I am a PHD in that. That's why I wanted you to read my thread. How much I've changed is debatable, but I've learned an awful lot about the prison I was in. And my dissociation with my true feelings. And why. And I have become a different person because of it.
So distract as a deliberate coping mechanism, when appropriate. When it gets destructive is when you HAVE to distract perpetually, and you are running in high gear all of the time, charging somewhere, doing something, because heaven forbid you have time for your feelings to catch up with you...
Knowing where that "line" is would be great. Fortunately/unfortunately I err on the side of NOT deliberately distracting when I should. Im a gluten for (self) punishment.
I saw some very close friends today. Apparently I am MUCH better than I was a month ago. They are very surprised by my generosity towards my wife. The last time I saw them I WANTED to hate her. I was busy pushing for action on this re-location issue and complaining that W wasn't organised, prioritizing etc.
I told them that NOW I had given up on this pushing, trying to organise and even accepting her priorities. It wasn't until I was on the way home that it occurred to me that firstly I was using this organising as a distraction. And also it was an attempt to control how this ordeal unfolded. This happened before I found DB or this board. I wasn't informed and didn't have the same words to describe it, I just knew I was only hurting myself (for no good reason [actually my need to control the outcome was greater than my desire to have any outcome at all] ) and getting nowhere.
(Also related to an earlier discussion. Rambling, journaling)
In the aftermath of BD I envied people who could so easily adopt the attitude of righteousness, blame the other person, detach, and find another R (to probably repeat same thing). I couldn't let it go for a second. I was analyzing everything almost 24 hours per day since BD and absolutely would not let go until I had filled the missing pieces. I fully accepted my Ws accusation that it was all my fault and at that time it was known between us as my "depression". Still things didn't fit, and eventually all roads lead Cairo, and the only remaining hypothesis required OM.
My theories were all I could talk about. One friend said OM theory proves that it was not my fault and I should just dump the bitch and move on. This didn't gel with my understanding though. OM was a result of enduring an unhappy R, and I caused it to be that. My "excuse" or "whitewash" explanation was that she still should have been prepared to work on the M. Even just for the kids sake. But then I realised how far down the path she must've been. And this was an unrealistic expectation. Logically. Scientifically. I think I convinced myself that my dedication to solving this "problem" was testimony of my dedication to my W or the M. And I did think in the early days that if I could just solve this riddle then I would save the M.
Now I see that this crazy obsession with solving the riddle was not dedication to my W, it was the death cry of a control freak. I have commented before about my history as a control freak. Honestly though, my W had been pretty much shielded from this. Deliberately. Arguably another example of control but then worryingly you head down a path of being able make 1+1=3. I commented earlier to MrBond that one of her quoted reasons for loving me was that I always listened to her and acted on it, however crazy it seemed. Maybe I wanted to be perfect for her. Like with you Z, and wanting the perfect M. I think I did too, but only went so far as I wanted to be the perfect H and father. I had to be the perfect boyfriend etc. So maybe it was always a control issue.
This did definitely turn. After she left me a few years in, the control-shackles came out. So it ruined my M, destroyed my M, killed me after BD, then was still an issue later disguised as logistical expedience.
When is it going to be over. Sometimes I feel like I am getting better.
Am I just trying to control the situation again by DBing to save the M?
So maybe I should truly avoid controlling her by just letting her go? But this is what I am aiming for anyway, to get her back? But I mean fully supporting her in achieving the divorce? This doesn't necessarily mean going dark for example. Which would not exactly be DBing, but it would be eliminating my attempts to control her. But maybe this IS controlling her and the sitch?
Man - I am second guessing myself all over the place tonight.
Generally though I feel good about this. I feel like I have come a long way. Oh, this all started following a post on Smothy's thread. I am feeling the 180 on my W, as quoted there, is taking hold. And as I have said a few hundred times WRT detaching, it hasn't really diminished my heartfelt position on the matter. It has clarified it. And made it easier to accept as just part of who I am. This is something I just want, like I prefer chocolate to vanilla. It isn't a frantic position. I am starting to feel like I am not just "waiting" for her but I am open to reconciliation - if she brings it up.
Well, the end of kids-week is here. D4 gave me another round of how to win Mamma back. Its all about presents you see
. Pack up and move out, again. Selling could likely inspire great things. A new place, my place. Spend my share of the asset pool on a yacht. Exciting times? The gift of time? Endless time perhaps, a second chance nonetheless. Damn, why did it have to get to this before I woke up,
I always thought my control was for the good of the family. Efficiency, saving money, working out logistics etc.
Now I see it's a fear of failure and rejection. I think this is why this D has impacted on me so much. I fear letting go of the control. I had so much anger inside which I am working on.
Pyrite, it's us wanting to be perfect for our spouses that manifests itself in control. We are too scared to take of the mask that we are hiding behind. Now we are working on ourselves and taking off the mask to look in the mirror it is scary stuff!
I too think I have come a long way for myself but not at a stage where I have truly let go of attachement to my H.
Reply to comment from Zeus on closed thread (Smothy)
Instead I recommend a narrative in which you see yourself as a wonderful human with flaws. One that deserves to be treated with respect. One that deserves a loving and committed partner, a partner that won't abandon them or script them as the bad guy. But also one that has made mistakes, that can forgive their WAS for their mistakes, one that has room and need to grow. And part of that growth is telling ourselves a balanced and effective story of who we are, how we got here, and how we will move forward. And part of that growth is letting go of your WAS's control over your view of your reality.
That is how we achieve detachment, feelings of self worth, acceptance, yet still grow from our experiences. That's all we can do. Whether someone else values what we offer or not, don't let that for a second dictate that your self worth.
Very well put. A little too long for a mantra, but something I will recite when necessary. I have always had trouble with the "wonderful human being" part.
How do you learn self care when you've looked to someone else to take care of you for so long?
I've been thinking about this recently. Before I met my W I was single for over 3 years, and generally happy. Certainly constructive/positive. This is when I went back to school, stopped taking drugs, stopped smoking, started swimming, gym, etc. So I DID take care of myself. I suspect a lot of us did, so maybe recapturing that is not so far fetched.
That's why I keep referring people to my old threads. It's been something I've been working on for 10 months now. I'm not "all better", I'm not the H only a fool would leave. But I've come a heck of a long ways and feel better about who I am. This makes my life more enjoyable, and I know it would take a lot of pressure off my partner if I were in an M.
Another thing I have been thinking about. How to gauge your own "success"? How will you know when you are there? I dont think you/I/we ever will be. Its like "I'm still an addict, I just haven't used in 15 years". I dont agree that you would not make a good H right now, unless of course all of your "reflections" are disingenuous.
Of course there is a point before which you are not actually ready, even if you think you are. I can see at my early stage how I have done a 180 in all my relationships, friends, family, colleagues. I haven't slipped up yet and I am really proud of that, but I imagine I will at some stage. I dont think I am ready for a R, and absolutely I am not ready to begin reconciliation with my W (even IF that was on the cards), but I think there must be some point at which you say to yourself I can't learn anymore, or judge my progress any further without throwing myself into a R.
Then it is exactly the same sitch as before; "I'm still an addict, I just haven't used in 15 years". So you just have to keep correcting. I do believe that it will be like everything else though, it just gets easier and easier until eventually it becomes the new you. I have a friend who trains people sailing. The other week he was telling me how some of them just keep training for years. Others take out their own boat after 1 lesson. Oddly there is no perceptible difference in their abilities.
Now we are working on ourselves and taking off the mask to look in the mirror it is scary stuff!
I too think I have come a long way for myself but not at a stage where I have truly let go of attachement to my H.
Scary indeed. But we were once here. I am confident we can re-learn. I haven't "let go" completely at all. For example, I just got an email alert. W calling. 2 months ago I carried my phone with me and looked at it every 5 seconds just in case I missed it. Now - i haven't even looked at the email yet. Replying to some anonymous poster is more important for ME. You'll get there. Just be patient, dont be so hard on yourself. Be proud of your babiest of steps. You keep posting, that suggests you are committed to making this change. Your focus WILL change, the goal WILL become clearer, but it won't define you.
hey, me again, just wondering if you have advice on ICs background I should be looking at. I am possibly moving towards another. She has helped me through the worst of it, but I think I would benefit from a "stronger" personality. Face to face 2*4ing, someone who challenges me with some cojones. Figuratively that is.
Find one that's pro-M and can help you with communication. There are also workshops you could attend while you're doing so. It will be hard at first to find a C that can challenge you the way you want. No one will want to be confrontational to you.
cool. It was the pro-M part I was looking for. I dont want confrontational, just someone who suggests other ways of thinking bout an issue OR highlights when my way of thinking about something is ....questionable. Someone who is MORE ready to be on the front foot than just passively listening. I'm not saying that this is ALL she does either. Just weighing up.
Thanks for the advice.
"Someone who is MORE ready to be on the front foot than just passively listening."
They listen to help you help yourself. In the end, that's the only real person who can help you. The communication issue is key though.
Py- you made a comment on my post about being ready before you think. That's so true and applicable. It's not just ready for dating, it's about many things.
Some people feel ready well before they are. I tend to feel unprepared long after I am.
I can tell you that just today I was in my car feeling the loss all over again like it just happened. There was a moment I felt broken. I'd never be over the loss. I'd always be weak in the knees around my STBX, a pathetic shaky shell that would beg to have her back.
But then like 5 minutes later I was totally fine and had an UNBELIEVABLE evening with my kids. PURE MAGIC.
I know now that if my STBX temperature checks me my heart would leap to the moon...I might even show a reaction, or say something out of emotion I'd regret, not sure...but then I'd snap back out of it and recognize the reality and go back to my path, only to reevaluate if given legitimate reason.
So if I'm waiting for the whiny, weak, needy, sad part of me to vanish...it won't EVER happen. In some way, I'll always have that part of me.
However, I might find out that my strong, independent, confident, and competent voice is there running my life anyway, and that while I may suffer pangs of sadness, I will be leading on as the man I want.
Having come this far, I'm very excited to see where I'll be in another year. I am starting to believe that I could make a good H, and that by the time I'm ready to sign up I will be ready to do my part to build a successful M.
Thanks for sharing Py.
I know how you feel. It is sad and frustrating. I posted the other day, that I had been fine and strong all day - and then 1 email, email no less, took me back to square one. My gut tight, every part of me aching. But they get further apart and shorter.
My mum's D was 22 (T:26 years) years ago and she admitted that she still gets teary occasionally. My Dad on the other hand (analogous to the WAS) has always been angry, the victim etc. They both say they are happy - but I can tell you who really appears to be the happy one, travelling the country with her new H (who she is hesitant to call the love of her life, but absolutely considers to be the best R she has ever had). The one who actually grew from the experience.
So I suppose maybe it never will go away. But that doesn't mean we won't be able to enjoy another R again. I have to pull back on this as well, so I am not criticising, but chances are you will have several Rs before you M again. Some of those R partners will just not be the right ones. You can be an incredible person, in terms of maturity, developed, stable, healthy (EVEN flawless dare I say) etc and so might she be, but she still might not be "the one".
i know how it is for me. and it is very .....ironic. Given my ego, and the problems that come out of it (BTW I am wrestling more with this ATM and will post one day - as I have promised before ), one would think I am eager to boast about myself. In some situations/achievements I am, not to boast, but to make sure that it is acknowledged. In others I am downright embarassed. I suspect maybe you are in this boat here. I am not saying that you ARE ready, or pushing you, just dont sell yourself short in this regard.
Chances are that potential Rs will be with someone who has never paid so much attention to personal development. I had an interesting talk with my Mum last night that I am still digesting. It just reinforces that I am going to have to take a break from actively self analysing how I WOULD or WANT to be in the future and just be. Later the same applies to RsI guess. When? There's the $M64 question. When will I even get through a day without talking to my W in my head.
damn - hows that for timing. my W just called. she talked about schools she is visiting. it was all really good, friendly etc -So why am I shaking? Why do I feel like s**t? Because she sounds fine. She sounds resolute. She sounds like there is no hope for US. She has appeared as the stressed out WW that Sandi described. Now she doesn't sound stressed out at all. She sounds happy and excited. Well it is an exciting prospect, as the conversation went, and we did share that together I suppose, but it is excitement about setting up our separated co-parenting lives. And that kills me. I liked it better when she was stressed and angry. I know that is wrong of me - but it gave me hope, that she was conflicted etc.
I know, marathon not a sprint.
damn - hows that for timing. my W just called. she talked about schools she is visiting. it was all really good, friendly etc -So why am I shaking? Why do I feel like s**t? Because she sounds fine. She sounds resolute. She sounds like there is no hope for US. She has appeared as the stressed out WW that Sandi described. Now she doesn't sound stressed out at all. She sounds happy and excited. Well it is an exciting prospect, as the conversation went, and we did share that together I suppose, but it is excitement about setting up our separated co-parenting lives. And that kills me. I liked it better when she was stressed and angry. I know that is wrong of me - but it gave me hope, that she was conflicted etc.
I know, marathon not a sprint.
Here is the thing - she is running on emotions right now,
so today she is cheerful and happy,
and tomorrow or next week she could be stressed.
STOP taking her temperature to figure out what is happening.
Or if you really want to waste time go out and find a river or a stream or ocean and take its temperature every hour and let me know the results,
maybe you can determine if their is global warming!
Glad I stopped by thanks Zeus. I'm right here with you guys. Roller coaster woooo!!!!!
Thanks Cadet - If only you had a $ for every time you saved someone from despair hey.
feel free to tell me not to ask if it suits - but why does your sig. only contain ages of you and your kids - is there a M of some sort in there that brings you here?
Glad I stopped by thanks Zeus. I'm right here with you guys. Roller coaster woooo!!!!!
Great- Thanks Z. Are you whispering to the crowd about the nutter over yonder (me)?
All good now. Work near the beach. Best place in the world to meditate. 15mins, calming and slightly directed towards letting go. Came back to work, chatted with the very attractive receptionist. Life doesn't seem so bad. Call me shallow, but it always cheers me up, chatting with her
but why does your sig. only contain ages of you and your kids - is there a M of some sort in there that brings you here?
How to find a thread
Try clicking on a NAME
SHOW POSTS
Then at the top right it says TOPICS CREATED - click there
My friend Mach1 says
Give a man a fish and he wont be hungry for that day
Teach a man to fish and he wont go hungry.
Also you might find the info here useful
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553130#Post2553130
Py, I know you're going through more than you really would like to right now. Just remember one thing...you're EARLY in your sitch.
I am over 10 months in and I feel like I'm closing out level I...only to start level II.
It really is a marathon. I'll get my D nailed down, get into a rhythm with work and kids, have some difficult and painful times, and allow this to become the new normal. That might take another year for things to feel like my life isn't some fun house mirror nightmare.
I'm doing well, but it still feels like an elephant in the living room that going through a D isn't really what I'd like to be doing right now.
So relax and give yourself permission to hurt right now. Keep posting, I appreciate your participation on these threads. You're all right Py. Take care.
it just sux. W being so happy makes me feel even worse. i cant help focusing on the "happy ending". what do i want? as in the DR chapter.
i want to save my M. i dont want the R we have had for the past few years. so maybe i should recast this simply as the R i want to have. NOT involving W, because this all seems hopeless for so many reasons. although, i would love for it to be with my W, this shouldn't be my focus?
even then I should back it off to - "who do I want to be in this new R". Then work on that i suppose.
it just sux man. i keep being dragged back down. it becomes about HER again and less about ME. I know you can't and shouldn't BUT what I really want to hear is that she will change her mind. I dont think this will ever happen. The next best thing i would like to hear then is that she will regret it. I dont think this will ever happen either.
I need to turn this around and leave it at "YOU will be OK. YOU will enjoy your life again one day."
Just remember that thoughts aren't real. Even feelings are just a reflection of your immediate environment. So when you're in an unpleasant spot, you feel bad, your brain starts making up thoughts that match those feelings trying to reason a way out.
Given that, it makes total sense. You feel bad for a reason. You're trying to sort through it. But no matter how you twist it, you can't change the fact that it hurts. Relentlessly.
I'm sorry you're in pain Py. Your last sentence is correct. You don't have to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Just know that it's there.
And your ability to do what you know is right despite your emotions, and the crazy thoughts that follow...THAT will allow you to change your environment for the better, and for the good. Take care P.
Thanks Z.
trying to reason a way out.
Given that, it makes total sense. You feel bad for a reason. You're trying to sort through it. But no matter how you twist it, you can't change the fact that it hurts
Hammers the nail in again. Same problem over and over. Trying to reason my way out, it's how i control things, rather than just letting them happen.
Hey Py, hope you're doing ok. I know the last few days have been overwhelming. Care to share?
Thanx Z. I will later. Py
My life is a roller-coaster. Every time it does a lap, the track morphs a little. It can stretch, flatten out and cover more ground, or it can spring back into the centre with wild peaks and troughs. ATM these are troughs of despair and unfortunately the peaks are mountains of guilt, not joy.
It was like the perfect storm. Everything coincided to crush me. It is very hard to relate the storms now to those past, without an objective measure. They do get further apart, and they seem to be less severe in general. This could be that I am just developing a tolerance as well, but the net result is that they feel less severe. Usually that is.
Occasionally the track morphs right back to day one’s shape. This happened to me this week. It feels perhaps worse when this happens because time has given me the edge in interpreting it all more effectively. For example I don’t just FEEL guilty, I know exactly why I feel guilty, and exactly why I should.
There is something written on the ground. They are instructions on how to slow and calm the rollercoaster, but I cant make them out. I moved to the back of the rollercoaster and can make out a little bit each lap around the track. I feel like I am at an impasse and I cant read anymore. I cant calm the roller coaster while I am in the car.
I have to jump. jump out. I will hit the ground, and it will probably hurt. But I think that is the only way I will be able to read the instructions and slow/ stop the rollercoaster. I have to jump. I have known this for a while now. I have moved as far to the back as I can, I am leaning as far out as I can, but i haven't “let go”. I think I am scared that I will never be able to get back in. But there is no “in”. The rollercoaster is out of control. Out of my control, And I cant do or enjoy anything from within the car anymore.
MAYBE, I will be able to get in the rollercoaster after it has slowed (which I have to do regardless). But I have to get to the ground so i can do anything. I have to jump. It is like the one last step, that in severing ties. And it might not even be as high as I think.
Its like I have been dreaming. I think I have jumped. I am on the ground. I am READING. But then I am woken up and I haven't jumped yet at all. This is poorly done, but my point is that I think I have “streched “ this as far as possible. The only way to get further is to cut her loose in one go. Maybe this will be like everything else so far, and afterwards I will look back on it as a blessing. Where I actually gained a richer appreciation for it, NOT lost it. But then I feel like I have jumped again.
Am I making any sense at all?
At any rate, I am not so shockingly overwhelmed as I have been lately. I am feeling better.
Am I making any sense at all?
YES the only way to stop being on a rollercoaster is to get off.
DB'ing is the safest way to get off.
Hey Z, moved it back over here, thread hopping.
What I'm losing/gaining isn't the major breakthrough, but I'll mention it. I'm losing my W, my kids growing up with both parents together, the chance to be married forever to the mother of my children, a lot of faith in love and commitment, my house, part of my income, and a chapter of my life that meant a lot. What I gain is the chance to get my own place and make it mine, to have undivided time with my children, to raise them how I want when they're with me, to have increased income (compared to being sole provider) and a lot of free time to pursue my passions, the chance to grow and find joy on my own, and the chance to meet a woman that has the character and commitment to be a wonderful partner for years to come.
So here's the point. I was nearly a WAH in 2011, went through a MLC and was very frustrated with the M. I didn't walk, although I wasn't a very good H all the time either. But the point is that my coping mechanism was to grit my teeth and tell myself "you can't leave this marriage, marriage is important and real, other women/free time/passions aren't whats important, the marriage will mean more in the long run", etc. I was so terrified I'd screw up by leaving and regretting my decision I was terrified to even LOOK at the other grass in fear it would lure me away.
I could've written this
. hang on - i think i did!
Hey- MrBond - had a good go at you too I see. At least I'm in good company.
Cheers,Read/talk more later
- Py.
Think of it this way, you getting off that roller-coaster doesn't mean its the end of the ride. You getting off just means you are done being thrown around by the operator driving it, for now.
So you go and take a nice stroll around the theme park of life and enjoy yourself, enjoy the sights and let that roller-coaster do what its going to do regardless. Maybe it derails and is never the same, maybe it realizes how out of control it is and changes, maybe it continues forever on that crazy ride. Regardless, you aren't the driver, just a possible rider.
One day maybe that roller-coaster decides it no longer wants to be out of control and wants to be a nicer ride. A calm tunnel of love ride. It may see how nice of a rider you have become and wants to show you how good of a ride it could be.
One day strolling around this nice tunnel of love ride gets your attention. It flashes its lights at you, does everything it can so you get in line. Then is when you decide if you keep walking or take another chance on the ride.
Life is full of the rides, just like this theme park. Maybe the ride you want to go on will never be good for you, maybe there's a great ride on the other side of the park that you haven't found yet.
So, why worry about getting back on that fast roller-coaster now? If its going too fast its likely still in chaos and not a ride you want. If the roller-coaster wants you as a rider again, it will change.
This was so bad....I'm done now. lol
hey Fogg, thanks for your post. Its true. why would i want to be on the ride that makes me sick.
One thing keeping me on the roller-coaster has been that once I get off I can't get back on, and seeing it from the outside I won't want to even stand in line. So i will move move on, or move forward. Not necessarily to the next ride, just around the park.
i'll always be able to see the high track of the roller coaster (mother of my kids). but i'm not heading back there. the RC might come under new management, but will never need to advertise for riders, and I'm not interested in lining up.
She's not going to flash her lights at me. Anticipating this as a possibility is holding me back.
I think what I am getting used to is that ...... I'm not saying that she won't, and i'm not saying that she might. I/she might win $1M or get hit by a bus. i'm saying that I am moving on to this future, where the RC is just part of the landscape and holds no special focus. The FOCUS is what do I want. And how do I go about getting it.
One thing I want is to be happy and full-filled and not NEED anyone else. I do want a R one day, and this will go a long way to making it a happy/healthy R. There are numerous ways to work on this now, and I would like to think that I am, and have been.
BUT I have been drawn back to the RC because that is in my focus. IF only because I am watching its course, peering through my fingers. Its time to turn my back and walk away. I'm not angry. and I won't stubbornly refuse to turn my head because the RC hurt me and I am adamant to never go back there.
The RC (W) is there. I might go back there, I might not. Thinking about RC - done. New topic.
I am not saying I am there. I will backslide, as always, but hey .... thats life.
Following what I just said - I also don't want make things worse with STBX, so...
With mothers day coming up should i take kids to get her a present. I think yes, it would be almost rude not. I won't be sending her birthday wishes etc, but this is different. do you think she would interpret it the wrong way and I should just ignore it?
in other cases i can see how it is not my role, but this sorta is.
Hey Py, I know it's been a hard week.
When talking about trying to control outlooks to manage feelings, once again I am drawn to what my IC has repeatedly told me: People aren't afraid of what might happen in the future, they are afraid of being unable to handle the emotions that result from what may happen.
He insists that if we learn that we can deal with our difficult feelings, it will relieve a TON of anxiety, and reduce the need to control everything. He said "they're just feelings, you won't melt, your heart won't stop beating. It may not feel good but you can gain confidence in your ability to deal with them".
So much of what you say is trying to manage things so you don't feel the way you are feeling. What if you just said screw it, and sat with those feelings. Let them overwhelm you a bit. Then wake up the next morning and realize that you're still there, and you're actually ok.
I'm not saying it's one or the other. I think looking at which outlooks are more effective, focusing on things you're appreciative of, and other positive traits that help shift you out of despair are important as well. But I think maybe a blend? Like learn to be ok with feeling bad as that is a natural and important reaction, but then after you've let them wash over you a bit and you've 'acclimated' to those feelings (so you know you're not just reacting out of terror), refocus your mind and just set them aside. And don't be afraid that they might return. THEY WILL. But then you can do this again.
When you learn to be ok even when you're not ok...you'll find yourself gaining confidence and feeling better and better able to meet life on life's terms. And I think this is a good R skill to develop as well, as so much of the destructive behavior we did was trying to control our spouse to make sure we didn't experience feelings we didn't like. Lot of parallels.
When you learn to be ok even when you're not ok...you'll find yourself gaining confidence and feeling better and better able to meet life on life's terms. And I think this is a good R skill to develop as well, as so much of the destructive behavior we did was trying to control our spouse to make sure we didn't experience feelings we didn't like. Lot of parallels.
I tend to sit too long with my feelings before actively distracting myself. But they do certainly resurface as you say. And when they do I am grateful for spending too long with them before, because I can deal with them better the next time around.
You're right, I am more scared of how I will feel/fall apart when for e.g. she re-M or something, than the actual event. I will take this onboard.
I'm having a problem with the "controlling" behaviour. My IC is ......skeptical. My Mum doesn't agree at all. I have been meaning to post a comprehensive history and psychological development as I move through it myself. But that is ...a work in progress. So in the interests of ever posting anything.... briefly
My egomaniac father did always push me. Mainly academically. When I was 8 i had a brain tumour. My life changed forever, and my happy childhood ended. Several months later I returned to school as the outcast sick kid, bald and big scar. As part of rehabilitation I learnt to meditate. I was naturally introspective. And I didn't have friends to distract me. I craved acceptance.
A few years later, at high school, I was LESS known as the brain tumour kid. I discovered that he clown of the class was very popular. Thats where I headed. A decade later I was still a clown, living the high life, drugs, partying etc.
I went back to school at 27. HUGE 180. Single. a few years later I met W.
My "ego" has always been very conflicted. In the first years of our R I felt great. I had acceptance, and I dint have to be "the clown". I was excelling academically. Then she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech. As i have said before, I was absorbed in my PhD and neglected her. Anyway, she came back to me.
I was getting tremmors losing co-ordination, balance, hearing, paralysis. Not hugely to stop me from leading a normal life. Then I blacked out one day. No problem, but I saw a neurologist anyway. He explained all of symptoms to me. The tumour is not a problem, but the after effects of radiotherapy are progressively manifested in my daily life.
How bad is it? Not huge really. But noticeable. For e.g. I can't ski anymore, hell i can't even write with a pen to fill out a form.
Anyway, the significant thing here is that following her leaving me as well, this just compounded my NEED to hang on to her. And that became to much pressure to bare. I NEEDed the acceptance and I couldn't lose that. So I was controlling in this respect.
i'll leave it here for now.