Married 19 years, W 38, H 39, S 9yr
H infidelity on/off for 18 years
W affair October 2014 with co-worker, he still waiting in the wings, some contact still, maybe more, not sure.
WW says disconnect occurred late summer 2014 and that it was slow and painful for her but that she could no longer take the pain of my rejection and continued affairs. W says her affair largely emotional but some physical.
OM is 35 year old never married, no kids co-worker.
He supposedly has backed way off once W sent text message that she was deciding future of marriage and needed space, that text was prompted by me back in Jan 2015 once I uncovered affair.
H complete life change started Fall 2014 as I watched wife disconnecting from me, losing my best friend and life partner. What took me so long? Hitting the bottom so to speak, having such a big loss, maturing, therapy, all helped me start to make permenant change.
Too little to late?
W never approached me, I had to approach her in Jan 2015 about disconnect that I had been asking about since fall 2014 and what was wrong. Thats when she said I am done, it is over, I have no love or connection for you any longer. 2 weeks later affair admitted when I caught texts and finally confronted her about other suspicions including longer hours at work and dressing up more for work. W is strong christian as am I. Affair and last few months behavior not like her at all. Very hard heart. Very strong willed, very much intent on Big D, seems to be getting closer each day. W see's pastoral council who does not encourage divorce but has reportedly released W from marriage per Godly wisdom and prayer due to my years of infidelity.
W agreed to go to christian marriage intensive after 4 weeks of physical separation and saying God opened the doors for her to go even though she did not want to go. 3 hours into 20 hour marriage intensive wife says she is pursuing divorce unless God radically changes her heart for me and re-connects us or gives her big sign to stay in marriage which she says she has been praying for on/off since fall 2014.
W says she had visions of me with another very attractive Christian woman and that God has given her others signs that she is ok to Big D and move on with her life. W says God has released her.
W getting lots of pressure from some of her family and mine to Not get a Big D.
I did all the wrong thing in Jan/Feb 2015.
Pulled way back during 4 week physical separation.
Did all the wrong things at marriage intensive, we left 8 hours into 20 hour 3 day intensive.
Moved back into our home 10 days ago after returning from the intensive, she was not happy about me moving back in, said she wanted time to pray about next step.
I told her she could do so while I was in the house, separate bedrooms, giving her lots of space, no more begging, pleading, lamenting like I did at intensive and first 6 weeks after her saying she was done then finding out about affair.
DBing coaching, following Sandi's rules, detaching, giving a ton of space in the home. Communication and family time have felt normal but different. Expecting Big D filing any day, know that she is looking hard to leave the home, find her own, place and start fresh.
W said things at intensive that I never had heard before like, I want my own life, make my own decisions, be responsible for myself.
She has a good job but money is tight right now due to recent travels and expenses so getting her own place might take a month or more but believe W has not changed her mind about big D and starting over.
I am continuing to change regardless as I will not do this again to another person or to myself.
Ive been affair free since last spring.
Feeling great about where I'm at as a person regardless of my ending M.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).
Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Okay, I have to ask. You say that you've been "affair free" since last Spring which means that you've been doing it for YEARS. And yet you seem puzzled by her disconnect by her.
Have both you and her gone to counseling to discuss your A's from before?
I am deff not puzzled. I totally understand her disconnect and A. We went to counseling on/off but not reg enough. I am going weekly now for myself.
And how long were your A's?
Why did you have them?
Hello parker7,
I'm sorry that you have to be here, but you will get excellent advice and support.
You mentioned that you and your W went to counseling on/off but not regulary enough. Why not? Did she give up? You?
It is great that you are going weekly to counseling for yourself.
Take care of yourself.
Bob
My A's varied from one nighters to a year or more. Usually just a few months.
I looked to A's for several reasons, none of which were right. I was insecure, intimacy, rejection issues and love issues from when I was a child.
No excuses though.
I did not want counseling regularly until she disconnected and I lost my best friend. Go figure that now I'm the one in weekly counseling and she is not. The tables are turned and she's involved and looks like she's on her way out. I know I deserve it but I would still like to save it if there was anyway I could. I'll keep changing regardless.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Since pulling back, GAL'ing, detaching, following Sandi's rules and being back in the house with her for the last 10 days things have been peaceful, respectful, and the family time has felt fairly normal. My W remains hard toward me, but communication being initiated by her is up a little. Seeing plenty of signs that she is with OM or at a minimum going places that she is trying to hide, She has not said anything new about D or about moving out but I know both are still looming. Any other advice or suggestions?
Hi Parker, I think the best plan is to really dig deep and truly try and understand why you were unfaithful for most of your married life thus far.
It's good that you are on the site, and that you hope to save your M. Equally, I can truly understand why your W would walk away and hope to find happiness with someone else. A part of me says - Boy, I can't blame her. I'm sorry to be blunt, and I accept that I may well be hypersensitive as a betrayed spouse. But, I can't imagine what it might be like to be married to someone who has been unfaithful for almost all of your married life.
In my reading about affairs, I have come across situations described as 'don juan.' Where an H 'needs' pretty regular R's with people outside of the M. That sounds like you, and I wonder why you always needed that involvement with someone else. Hopefully you will explore some of this through counselling.
Also, can I ask. Did you only want to save the M when you had lost your W to someone else? As you say, it may be too late as far as your W is concerned - it may be not - IDK. But I hope you'll do the work for yourself, and that hopefully any future R will be a faithful and healthy one.
Good luck on your DB journey..
Have you ordered the DB or DR books yet?
One other thing I have to ask is... when you were carrying on your A's, how many of them were there? How long of a period was this?
When you carried them out, did you act entitled or did you feel sorry after?
And of course, the most honest question you have to ask yourself... Why would your W want to stay with you if you betrayed her trust so many times in the past? I mean you haven't really "changed". It sounds like you're just scared because now she's getting some self respect for her after years of abuse by you.
Toots:
Great insight and questions. I understand your feelings about what I did to my W. My intent is that whether I get my W back or not I will never do this to anyone else. I have been in weekly counseling since January working on myself. I know many of the reasons why I did what I did including rejection and affection issues as a child. That being said it does not excuse my behavior and if my W leaves Me I will continue to love her and respect her the best I can understanding my actions caused her to disconnect and to find OM.
Lastly, I hit bottom last fall when I watched her disconnect and I lost my best friend. It really got my attention and I started to make major changes but it was late in the game. I didn't find out about the OM until mid January.
Mr Bond:
I have not gotten those books yet. I am doing coaching.
Do you know if they have these books availeable on iTunes or audio?
Also, my wife has every reason to leave. I don't want her to but I understand if she does. She forgave me over and over again.
Yes, I hit bottom 5 months ago when she disconnected and I lost her emotionally.
It woke me up. I have made huge permenant changes including identifying many things through weekly therapy and spiritual counsel and awakening. Ultimately I will continue with my life change even if she leaves which it appears she will.
I always had guilt with the A's now I have even more as I realize the perm damage I have done to my W, my Son and my family.
"Do you know if they have these books availeable on iTunes or audio?"
I'm not sure, but you MUST get the books in order to understand the concepts and actions we will be suggesting to you.
"Also, my wife has every reason to leave. I don't want her to but I understand if she does. She forgave me over and over again."
You never answered my questions. When you were carrying on your A's, how many of them were there? How long of a period was this? We need specifics.
"Yes, I hit bottom 5 months ago when she disconnected and I lost her emotionally.
It woke me up. I have made huge permenant changes including identifying many things through weekly therapy and spiritual counsel and awakening."
First of all, be honest with yourself. Your changes aren't "permanent". In fact, you only started changing 5 months ago and had repeated A's. That's hardly enough time to say that something is permanent. And the only reason why you felt that way is because she finally had enough sense to leave. If she didn't, you would have continued on your own selfish ways. You have to be brutally honest with yourself to see that.
"Ultimately I will continue with my life change even if she leaves which it appears she will."
This is you feeling sorry for yourself. Sorry but maybe if you had one A but not multiple ones. You didn't respect her or your son.
"I always had guilt with the A's now I have even more as I realize the perm damage I have done to my W, my Son and my family."
I don't think so. I think you liked the attention and continued to see what you could get away with. You might have even prided yourself on how many times you were able to get away with it.
Be honest here with us. It's the only way you're going to make it through.
When you had your A's, did you come out and confess them on your own or did you only do it because you were caught? Who were these women? Detail your exploits here in as much detail as you can. That will help us to see patterns.
Also, detail your whole marital history. How things were at the beginning, what changes happened, etc. The more detailed you are the better.
And last but not least, answer this question honestly - Why would your W want to stay with you if you betrayed her trust so many times in the past? I mean you haven't really "changed". It sounds like you're just scared because now she's getting some self respect for her after years of abuse by you.
Mr Bond:
You are correct 5 months is not enough to prove permenant change. Yes, she did get my attention by finding OM and disconnecting. You are right if this did not happen I would have continued. I certainly did disrespect my W and son over and over again.
My A's started in the first 6 months of marriage. Some were caught others were not. I had 10 physical/emotional affairs and several online. Some lasted as long as a year others were one nighters. I did like the attention of the A's yes. But again I did feel guilty but not enough to stop. I did get caught a lot, I was not careful but several did not get found out. I never outright admitted any of the A's.
Most of the women were acquaintces through work or school.
Lastly, and I will write more tommorow. My wife should not trust me or want to stay with me. It will take a long time to rebuild trust. I do love her and care for her deeply even though I never acted like it. I will certainly have to think on this one hard as I am at a real loss for words as to why she should stay.
parker...I'm glad you're here.
I think you know what you've done is truly devastating. It's one of those things where you're not suddenly going to make a PR apology and everyone is going to love you. The damage you caused is so vast that it's not easy for anyone to get on a "parker is so great" campaign trail. And there are consequences to what you've done that an apology can't retract. Whether your M is gone for good, or just permanently scarred. What's done is done.
That said, I do appreciate that you have been so open. Believe it or not I'm not (and I don't think anyone else is) judging you. It's not about "bad parker". It's about coaching to what needs to be done for you to have a shot at achieving your goals: Permanent change, potential for healthy M, potential for that to be with WAW.
I agree that your worst enemy is to think you've changed. There is a big difference between someone that has avoided a certain behavior and someone that has truly altered themselves, their desires, their self image, their way of thinking, etc, to the point they don't operate with similar patterns.
I've never had an affair but I've used porn for 20 years. I can't describe how entangled it has been with how I view sex, relationships, my needs, and more. And that's the hard part. The "easy" part would be to stop using porn. And that in itself is the most difficult thing I've dealt with. Yes, I "quit" porn for 3 months immediately after BD when I thought I could somehow "behave" my way out of D. Once it became clear I couldn't bargain my way back into my M I went right back to it. Now I'm trying again for ME. But trust me, I don't feel comfortable at all. I still live in fear that I can't win this one, that I'll never be good relationship material, that I'll hurt the ones I love and isolate myself in the process.
You will be dealing with a lot of guilt, and a lot of embarrassment. Don't let your ego get in the way, don't get defensive, don't give up. The person you were and are will be beaten down and destroyed, torn apart. It will be painful. But the good news is that you don't want to be that person forever. You DO want to take the good from that person and rebuild it inside of a better foundation with healthier attitudes. You'll have your personality, your memories...but don't cling to things that destroyed your family. Let it go and trust that even as you feel attacked, we know your spiritual self is in there waiting to bloom into a strong man.
Now the pep talk is over and the very, very, very difficult work begins. Keep posting regularly, see your IC, read the books carefully. Continue to be very open about your frustrations with this. It may seem "safer" to act compliant, but only by voicing your inner conflicts and getting blasted for them can you start to get good perspective on where you're wired differently than many others. Know that with each reply you get that makes your heart sting, you are probably one step closer to your goal.
parker...I'm glad you're here.
I think you know what you've done is truly devastating. It's one of those things where you're not suddenly going to make a PR apology and everyone is going to love you. The damage you caused is so vast that it's not easy for anyone to get on a "parker is so great" campaign trail. And there are consequences to what you've done that an apology can't retract. Whether your M is gone for good, or just permanently scarred. What's done is done.
That said, I do appreciate that you have been so open. Believe it or not I'm not (and I don't think anyone else is) judging you. It's not about "bad parker". It's about coaching to what needs to be done for you to have a shot at achieving your goals: Permanent change, potential for healthy M, potential for that to be with WAW.
I agree that your worst enemy is to think you've changed. There is a big difference between someone that has avoided a certain behavior and someone that has truly altered themselves, their desires, their self image, their way of thinking, etc, to the point they don't operate with similar patterns.
I've never had an affair but I've used porn for 20 years. I can't describe how entangled it has been with how I view sex, relationships, my needs, and more. And that's the hard part. The "easy" part would be to stop using porn. And that in itself is the most difficult thing I've dealt with. Yes, I "quit" porn for 3 months immediately after BD when I thought I could somehow "behave" my way out of D. Once it became clear I couldn't bargain my way back into my M I went right back to it. Now I'm trying again for ME. But trust me, I don't feel comfortable at all. I still live in fear that I can't win this one, that I'll never be good relationship material, that I'll hurt the ones I love and isolate myself in the process.
You will be dealing with a lot of guilt, and a lot of embarrassment. Don't let your ego get in the way, don't get defensive, don't give up. The person you were and are will be beaten down and destroyed, torn apart. It will be painful. But the good news is that you don't want to be that person forever. You DO want to take the good from that person and rebuild it inside of a better foundation with healthier attitudes. You'll have your personality, your memories...but don't cling to things that destroyed your family. Let it go and trust that even as you feel attacked, we know your spiritual self is in there waiting to bloom into a strong man.
Now the pep talk is over and the very, very, very difficult work begins. Keep posting regularly, see your IC, read the books carefully. Continue to be very open about your frustrations with this. It may seem "safer" to act compliant, but only by voicing your inner conflicts and getting blasted for them can you start to get good perspective on where you're wired differently than many others. Know that with each reply you get that makes your heart sting, you are probably one step closer to your goal.
Great post, Zues. A lot of wisdom in there ^^^.
Starsky
WW just emailed me this without asking or prompting:
"As far as my plans, I still intend to let you have the house, I just have to make sure things are set for a place for me to go to that's why I'm still there. I hope that's ok."
My reply:
"As far as your plans; I am very sorry you feel that you need to move out, I do not feel that way. You can stay at our house for as long as you want or need to, but of course you are free to leave whenever you want to go."
Thoughts?
My thought is that she wants a totally new life away from you and start from scratch.
You say that you've been cheating on her since practically day 1 and you've been married for 19 years. It's not hard to see why she wants to cleanse herself from you. Seriously, can you honestly predict that in a month's time or more that you won't be cheating again?
When you were carrying on your A's, how did you treat your W? Again, you have to give us specific details. Start from the beginning and how you started straying. Were you tired of her? Not wanting to be married? Don't wait for us to keep asking you questions. You have to be the one to give us specifics.
You can save this and like Zeus said, it's going to take alot of work on your part. Because of your long history of infidelity, the quicker we cut through the BS the quicker it will be to create a plan.
And READ THE BOOKS.
Mr. Bond,
I get that she wants a new life. I would too. I cannot promise that I would never do this again. But what I can do is dig deeper and try harder than I ever have before to figure out why Ive done this over and over again and to continue to seek help from others including my counselor to start the repair process of myself. I know that I will have to do some major work on myself and it will take a lifetime commitment. I really want to continue to work on this once and for all and not quit. I know its a verrrrry big long shot to get my W back. I also do not want to do this to another relationship or hurt my son anymore than I already have.
When I was carrying on my A's I was moody. Angry, controlling, on edge, I did not treat my W well or my son. My W also said sometimes I was hypersexual and even fun during the A's more so than when I was not. W also said that there were big highs and low lows in our relationship but never felt as though we were on cruise. The biggest problem I had outside of the A's (which is enough) was that I was very controlling and actually insecure. I realize this now.
I never felt that I was tired of my W and never left. But I did come close with a couple of the A's that I became very attached to. My first A was with a co-worker. It started innocently and grew to physical quickly. This occurred within the first year of my marriage. I almost walked away from the marriage, my wife begged me to stay and I did. It became easier for me after the first. I had less guilt and less inner conflict especially as time when on and I did this over and over again. The A's made me feel good, at times I felt as though I would never get caught and that she would never leave me. However, I did feel some guilt, especially when caught and I saw what it did to my wife. Very selfishly hurting my wife over and over again was never enough for me to stop what I was doing. Again I was caught in most of my A's by my W. I never came out and confessed them.
Zues,
Thank you for your thoughts. I do realize I am not going to be very popular because of how I've behaved over the years and the damage I've done to my W and son.
In fact I'm sure there are many that would like to see my W be done with me once and for all and I understand that.
Right now I feel I'm not deserving to have her back ever. Earlier today I became very convinced of that, then I start thinking I cant and don't want to lose her, she's the only one that could ever love someone as broken and messed up as I have been over the years. I feel like I'm on a roller coaster ride. Somedays I have hope for myself, and my marriage, some days I don't have any hope for either.
Thanks again for your insight.
Did you pick up the books yet?
Look, to be perfectly honest, you're going to have to get off your pity party because if you want people to feel sorry for you, that's not going to save your M.
Detail to us your marital history. How you and your W met, things that happened, how you got to this point, etc. Try not to focus everything on your A's. Talk about your M.
" then I start thinking I cant and don't want to lose her, she's the only one that could ever love someone as broken and messed up as I have been over the years."
This is just more control on your part. You want what you can't have. And the fact that you say that you can't promise that you won't cheat again speaks volumes. If at the very least, I'm sure you don't want your son remembering you as the guy who treated his mom like dirt by abusing her.
If you want to save your family and to become an honest man for a change, then you need to start now.
Mr. Bond:
Books are on there way.
I will write more on my M a bit later tonight.
Do you think I should be promising I won't cheat again this early in the change? My therapist has corrected me multiple times when I said that I wouldn't and challenged me that I could not say never.
How am I having a pity party?
Yes, I want to be honest and save my family.
Thank you for making me think.
"Do you think I should be promising I won't cheat again this early in the change?"
No because there's nothing that shows that you can be faithful. So your W isn't going to believe it.
"My therapist has corrected me multiple times when I said that I wouldn't and challenged me that I could not say never."
He's correct.
"How am I having a pity party? "
All you seem to do in your posts is write about how much you hurt your W and yet you want her and have changed, and then talked about her A (which I don't even know if I would call it that because of your numerous indiscretions). She's getting her self-respect back in the only way she knows how.
I don't know how many times I've asked for a marital history, and all of your responses have centered around your A's. Is that really all that your M was made of? Untruths, deception and abuse? Again, concentrate on the MARRIAGE.
Mr Bond,
We married when we were 19 & 20 after 6 months of dating and another 9 months of engagement. We were kids. Both still in college. We grew up married. We have changed a ton together. My A's were a huge part of the negative of the marriage. That and the anger and control issues that went along with my A's and my insecurity. We have had a lot of great times though. We have a ton in common, both into fitness, working out, being outdoors. We both are loving parents and spend a ton of time with our 9 year old. We both love to travel and have done so. We have strong Christian upbringings and made that an important part of our lives. Except I certainly didn't live it with the A's. We are both pastors kids. She is and introvert, golden retriever, words of affirmation. I am Type A, clean/neat freak, very organized, regimen. Words of affirmation. I did a terrible job complimenting her. I am a career Firefighter and she is a union shift worker. Time together has certainly been an issue due to work especially the past few years. She has been working a lot more and we have had less time together. Not many dates or time alone as a couple. I believe she was/is pouring herself more into work because of my rejection and A's. Our sex life was good. I had some issues on/off due to the A's. Sometimes it affected my performance negatively and sometimes for the better, usually negative though. Sex with her became boring and routine quickly for me and I'm not sure why as I had nothing to complain about or not like. In the end, fall 2014 she was like a robot, sex was no fun, she disconnected, we stopped all together around the holidays as she was not into it at all and not into me.
Also, you are right. I can hardly call my wife unfaithful and a cheater. I own that. She disconnected from me due to all the hurt and pain I caused her over the years and she saw that it was likely never going to change. She found care and respect from someone else when she could no longer get it from me.
Parker, I hesitate to say this because there are no excuses- you are 100% accountable for your choices. I can see, though, that after the first A and how easily it was forgiven, how you might have another. And how this could quickly turn into a way of life. I've always thought a one night stand was different than serial affairs, but with no consequences it makes sense that it could play out that way. Had your W drawn serious boundaries and drawn a line in the sand you might have been forced to a decision much sooner. LET THIS BE A LESSON FOR THE LBS'S THAT LET THEIR H BACK TO EASILY!
I'm trying hard to empathize, but don't you dare let that distract you from the big task at hand. The problem with her not standing up for her boundaries and for you taking advantage of that is that she allowed you to hurt her much more deeply and for a much longer period of time than most women would ever have. So instead of it being "ow, that hurt, don't do that!" and you being like "ok, won't happen again!", it was like "I can take it, I can take it, I can take it" for many years, and now she's just beyond her ability to cope with pain.
So unfortunately it is a tough hill to climb. I'm not saying it can't be done. But I do mourn for your loss. Yes, it was brought about in large part by your actions, but just because someone committed the crime doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to see a fellow human suffer. And I know how much you are suffering.
OK. Back to your growth. Let me ask you this- you mention insecurity, control. Those are things I can identify with. For me it was porn. It was that I didn't feel ok on my own, and I needed a woman's love and admiration to make me feel ok. It scared the heck out of me to depend on my W for that. In fact, I resented her because I needed her so much...I was upset that she had the ability to make me feel fulfilled or rejected (this was how I perceived it at the time). Since sex was my biggest love language to fill those needs I used porn to try to "diversify", not allow my W to have total control over my happiness. At times I felt this made it easier for me to manage because I didn't rely solely on her, but in the end I grew resentful again that she wasn't able to fulfill my needs to my satisfaction.
So to sum up- it was her job to make me happy, I resented that she wasn't able to do that, and that I depended on her so much. Thus I used porn and/or pressured her for sex in controlling ways.
_)*&_((*&T^(). It still stinks to have to write that out. Arg. Why was it so hard? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I screwed up. Deep breath. Ok. Ok. Let it go. It's done.
But anyway, I've learned that it's MY job to make myself happy. Not hers. If you can remove the need/expectation/pressure from your partner then you have a shot at a reasonable relationship. I'm guessing most of the other negative stuff you did was either to control her behavior or out of resentment from your inability to do so. So again, it can be changed.
That was my experience. What parts of this can you relate to?
Parker, I hesitate to say this because there are no excuses- you are 100% accountable for your choices. I can see, though, that after the first A and how easily it was forgiven, how you might have another. And how this could quickly turn into a way of life. I've always thought a one night stand was different than serial affairs, but with no consequences it makes sense that it could play out that way. Had your W drawn serious boundaries and drawn a line in the sand you might have been forced to a decision much sooner. LET THIS BE A LESSON FOR THE LBS'S THAT LET THEIR H BACK TO EASILY!
Amen!!!
Zues:
My insecurity and rejection issues certainly played a part in my behavior toward my W and my A's. No excuse though. I actually rejected my W over and over and over again with my A's which was the very thing I was struggling with since my adoption as a young child. Growing up in a home with limited to no emotional bond with my mother and father I was constantly reaching out for more affection, acceptance, security. My W gave me all that she had but I had to have more. Im only learning this recently, I wish I would have identified a lot of this years ago. But I didn't try hard enough, I didn't want to dig deep. It certainly does not excuse what I've done.
Zues:
Yes, my controlling behavior was directly related to my insecurity of myself and my marriage. When I was in the A's I was even more controlling.
"We have strong Christian upbringings and made that an important part of our lives."
So you never felt guilty about the A's in the eyes of God? Did you feel entitled to your A's? In what ways have you changed for the better towards her?
Mr. Bond:
I felt guilty, especially at first. As the A's went on and on I blocked out the guilt some. But I do believe I was having a hell of an inner conflict. Anger, mood swings, harsh to my W and S. Controlling W and S as much as I could.
The guilt was especially bad around her Christian family, Christian friends and sitting in church. I knew what I was doing was wrong especially in the eyes of God.
How I've changed around the W. I am no longer controlling, not a smidgen of that, nor am I moody, especially angry, I am being respectful, kind, loving, caring, patient, but that is hard when she is disconnected and hardened to me. I am working on detaching, 180, following Sandi's rules, even going dark, but I have been conflicted, even when discussing with my DB coach, I have asked do I do all these things even though I drove her to the OM and gave her the hardened heart?
I will continue to be loving and respectful in any way I can.
I have been pouring into my S-9. My W has mentioned several times how she has seen the bond between my S and I really strengthen in the last couple months.
"Controlling W and S as much as I could. "
How so? What did you do?
"How I've changed around the W. I am no longer controlling, not a smidgen of that, nor am I moody, especially angry, I am being respectful, kind, loving, caring, patient, "
These are all general concepts. HOW are you showing these things? What specific actions?
Controlled work schedule, asked her to limit how much OT and extra hours she worked, tried to keep her home as much as I could, controlled who she hung out with, where she went, gave guilt trips, said harsh things to accomplish this, controlled where we went, what we did together.
I am not getting involved at all in her personal life. I am not limiting who she hangs with what she is doing. I am not saying one word even when I would have objected in the past to who she is going out with and where she is going. Its her life and I should have realized that long ago. I have not said a word about her increased work schedule, limited time with her son, which means i get to be with him more (not all bad).
I am picking up the slack even more around the house, laundry, cleaning, running errands. With her increased work hours I have stepped it up around the house more.
I am throwing in compliments one a day or one every other day, words of affirmation directly related to her hard work or how she cares for our son, involvement at our sons school. DB coach said don't go overboard, pull back?
I lamented a ton the first 6 weeks and then at the marriage intensive we went to 2 weeks ago. So I'm giving lots of space. Not initiating convo, hello's, gnight's, being upbeat.
Which marriage intensive did you go to? What did she say while you were there?
Christian/Focus on the family marriage intensive. 3 days/20 hours. We lasted 2 days 11 hours. Within 3 hours into the counseling session she said unless God changed her heart she wanted a divorce. As the hours went by she became more focused on our son and how the things they were teaching us could be used for dealing with future communications over his care. They were very much interested in showing us why things went wrong in our marriage and how to fix it and how I could get on the right path also. She wasn't interested in that and kept re-directing the convo. I lamented that night horribly and pissed her off to the point of her saying I want my freedom, independence, to start over, to make my own decisions ect... I hadn't heard that before. She was always saying she was disconnected and done.
I haven't lamented/begged since, but the damage was done. I lamented the first 6 weeks back in January then again at the intensive March 30.
So moving forward, how often do you interact with her? How have those interactions been? What are the small actionable items you can do now to get a small positive response and build from there?
I interact with her daily. Usually in the home, general convo, I let her initiate. I'm friendly upbeat, I validate when I can, I listen closely. I let her initiate texts and emails and it's usually about the S or her plans. I don't respond immediately unless it's very important. We don't talk on the phone at all. When we used to it was usually me doing the talking
I don't say hello,gbye, good morning or Gnight unless she initiates. Is that what I should be doing? Should I be doing more?
Our communication has been pleasant for the last 2 weeks just minimal. She's been working a lot and coming/going much more than the norm but my lips are sealed shut.
Since I am the one guilty of multiple A's and she is in one just to get some connection and love and acceptance that she was not getting from me I have not done a thing about that or spoken a word about it. It came up at the intensive that she hadn't spoken with him in a month but I know that's not true, facebook, email comm continues and they see each other at work and maybe after like they did before she admitted it. I intend to say or do nothing about that. Is that correct?
What type of things would you suggest as actionable items in my situation?
Since I am the one guilty of multiple A's and she is in one just to get some connection and love and acceptance that she was not getting from me I have not done a thing about that or spoken a word about it. It came up at the intensive that she hadn't spoken with him in a month but I know that's not true, facebook, email comm continues and they see each other at work and maybe after like they did before she admitted it. I intend to say or do nothing about that. Is that correct?
It does change the dynamic a bit because you've had multiple As yourself. It still doesn't mean you have to live in an open marriage, though -- your position should be "I realize that what I did was wrong -- intensely wrong -- but I'm working to correct that. I still value myself too much however to be willing to live in an open marriage."
But in your case, I wouldn't INITIATE that statement. I would probably only focus on maybe not allowing her to lie to my face openly. If she does, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Look, I've been no saint but please stop it -- we both know you're lying to me right now, and it's very disrespectful. I know all about you and ______, and because of my own infidelity in the past I've said nothing, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stand here and let you lie to my face about it."
(or something similar)
Starsky
Interesting advice Starsky. I am walking such a tight rope.
I don't want to push her to leave as she says she is working that but I don't like being lied to either. I did this a lot to her. It's a tough lesson to learn.
A good friend today that knows my A's history said you can't let her lie to you, carry on the A even though your actions drove her to it, and continue to live in the house. Um ok? But if she says she is leaving, wants a D but I want her to stay as I continue to work on changing isn't that counterproductive?
Let's put it this way. When you were carrying on your MULTIPLE A's, did she ask you to leave like your friend suggests?
Very true Mr. Bond
Any other advice on how I should be handling things including interaction?
I'm continuing to work on myself, attending weekly counseling and have done a 180.
You have to rebuild trust in her. She has to feel like she can trust you again. Do something small at first to show that you're trustworthy like if she asks you to do something, you follow through. And then slowly make your way into conversations. Light small talk at first, then build it to where she actually shares something with you.
True. We had a convo tonight that went off track, she was talking about working late tomm night. I said I understand and no problem, but then I said can you let me know how late is late so I know how to plan. Apparently that pushed a button and she said if you don't trust me I can show you the email I got from my boss about working late. I said no thank you, I trust you, I'm sorry I somehow communicated that I didn't. Ugh. I mean her A is a co-worker and that's how it worked, she would stay late, ect... But if she's planning on leaving and divorcing me why was she justifying/explaining why she would be late?! Confusing and a roller coaster ride!
Not confusing at all. That's probably exactly how you acted when you were carrying on your A's.
Mr Bond:
Do you believe I should be detaching, following Sandis rules, GALing, giving lots of space and distance, yet doing things to help rebuild her trust in me?
Give her space and start rebuilding trust in her little at a time. What were the things she liked about you? Bring out some of those aspects here and there.
I do not think she is even paying attention.
But I will try regardless.
It is a lot tougher detaching than I thought.
It's also hard to know that the A is going on and because of my sitch I do not dare say/do anything about it.
It's equally hard finding a way to do things to rebuild her trust in me and re establish a connection or at minimum a friendship when she is so disconnected from me and distracted.
I'm going to keep trying!
I feel for you parker, your situation really is complicated. I hope you can find some peace with whatever happens and are able to work hard to make quality changes in yourself. That is whats most important, that we use this experience in a way that creates a better us on the other side. Whatever happens keep making parker a better parker. W might not appreciate it but you will in the long run.
Also, you should be able to update your signature now. Just find a thread and mimic what others have, it helps readers get a picture of your situation right away.
"I do not think she is even paying attention"
Mindreading. Besides, you're not doing it for her. You're doing it for you. She deserves your trust even if she doesn't want it. You don't push it.
"It's also hard to know that the A is going on and because of my sitch I do not dare say/do anything about it. "
Again, how about you stop thinking about it as an A. That is so hypocritical of you given the circumstances. She's getting respect from a loving man that you were not able to do. Get over it. If you don't, you're going to keep seeing it as an A and, in turn, that's a form of control.
It's perfectly fine for you to carrying on A's FOR YEARS, but not okay for your W to be with someone who respects her.
Mr Bond
Great insight. Thank you.
Fogg:
You are right. The change in me is what I have to keep focused on and to keep respecting her and caring for her even if she files and moves on. I cannot control her any longer.
Had a great weekend with the family. Went to church, had pleasant convo with W and even shared some laughs and a drink. Cleaned the house together. Being respectful, patient, and doing what I can to earn some trust back. Still detaching, pulling way back, giving space. Not worried about OM. Working on me, pouring love & time into son. More texts and in person communication being initiated by her as of late. Saw a roller coaster of emotions from her on Sunday from waking up annoyed and seemed standoffish to very kind and pleasant. I'll meet with therapist and pastoral council this week and she will meet with her pastoral council as well. Going to keep working hard on me and being kind, respectful to her from a distance. Any other advice?
Hi Parker
I think that all sounds fine in respect of your W. And I think the really important thing is to keep up the work you have been doing yourself. If I were your W, I would want to see you really, truly digging deep and truly trying to understand and resolve the factors that led to your serial infidelity. And never wanting to go back there again. Acknowledging the great damage and hurt caused, and being genuinely remorseful.I think these would be the most important things for me..
Sounds as though things are going as well as can be expected though...:-)
Toots:
Thats the plan, real change no matter what. I cannot do this to her, my son, or anyone else ever again. Things are going better than I expected. I know she still is working on moving out ect... but I'm thankful that I can help make the home a safe respectful place while she is still here and treat her well also.
Toots:
In what others ways could I show her me really digging deep and real change? I will continue with the weekly individual counseling, I will continue to be kind and respectful and understanding even when she says she is leaving and filing for D. I see the hurt and pain I caused. I really wish I could repair it but I know I can't go back, I just have to do all that I can moving forward.
W came in room last night to ask more details about a doctors appointment I had earlier in the day, I gave few details except to say they are looking into a few abnormalities but nothing serious.I suppose in this instance I need to communicate more and be less vague so not to worry her. She also sent a late night email saying that she was praying for me and if I needed anything to let her know.
I'm still giving a ton of space, pulling way back. Communication remains civil, pleasant, and respectful.
Came home tonight. W asked nothing about my day. We just shared a few convos about kid care and general stuff. Convo was pleasant.
W went to bed or into room immediately after S did. I've been doing the go straight to the room thing so I guess it was her turn tonight. Not that we stay up together very often like we used to but was hopeful for some general convo. Only been pulling back, giving space, GALing, for 3 weeks so not long. Still working on me each and every day. I give words of affirmation/compliments once a day or every other day. Respect constantly. I follow through with anything she asks me to do or I say I will do for her and the little guy. Anything more?
In what others ways could I show her me really digging deep and real change?
Have you dug deep and really changed? I know you've done some soul searching but I thought it was clear you had a road ahead of you. So keep digging in, keep changing. You can't show her what you don't do. What breakthroughs have you had in the last few days? What are you doing over the next few days to continue to grow?
I'm glad you're monitoring your interactions, but you really need to make self growth a daily and permanent part of your life. Please share with us how that's going.
Zues:
For starters as I sit here typing this I am reflecting on how alone I feel without any emotional or physical connection from my W in over 4 months. I imagine that my W felt these feelings quite a bit over the years during my A's. This feeling of hurt and loneliness is enough for me to really think about my actions and the consequences they have had and will have in the future if I continue in this pattern.
Also, this week in counseling we indentified my need to stay busy and always be working on something like a project, hobby ect... In the past I have stayed busy chasing other women. This has to change. I need to find a way to channel my energy and time into my son and maybe in the future my W. If I still have free time left over then a productive hobby is a must.
In addition, last week I looked at porn and had few females express intrest. I recognized it as an issue immediately, let my accountability partner and mentor know I was struggling and they provided advice and words of encouragement to help me stand strong. Until Jan 2015 I've never had an accountability partner or mentor. I'm quickly learning that this is one of the many important pieces for me to work on me for the long haul.
Thanks for sharing.
The good news is that you're learning a few things that DON'T work. Hyper activity in hobbies is a way to escape. As is porn.
So too can be anything outside of ourselves.
I am not saying you shouldn't be a good dad or good partner.
What I'm saying is it would be nice to get to the point where you didn't have to "distract" yourself, or escape the here and now.
Because avoiding, escaping, distracting...that's all about trying to not have to feel how you're feeling.
Porn and other medications are very tempting because like drugs they immediately change the way we feel.
So if you feel bad, you either have to distract or medicate.
The problem with what you're doing right now is that it's not changing the way you feel. You're being a "good boy" by not medicating, good job. You're trying to be a "good boy" and pursue healthier distractions.
But you're doing this with the expectation that if you're a "good boy" it will make you feel better, some way, some how.
But feeling better takes more than the absence of medication and distraction. You have to keep digging to find out why you feel something is wrong in the absence of something else.
And you don't have much time. Because what's going to happen is if you don't change the way you feel deep down you'll get increasingly frustrated that you're "pure" lifestyle isn't working for you, and you'll be in a lot of pain, and you'll be hopeless, and bored, and defeated...and you'll finally figure that hell, you feel terrible anyway, might as well medicate and have a little fun along the way. Maybe you're just incapable of being normal like everyone else. Who cares? This feels good now.
So you're on the right track with your behavior. Now keep going. How do you feel when you're not doing something to keep busy? What's your default state? Why?
Keep posting.
"last week I looked at porn"
Have you quit porn? Have you ever been diagnosed with a sex addiction?
Mr Bond
Hadn't looked at porn in 4 months, felt it was a contributor to A's though. My therapist says no to the addiction, biological family history of addiction so I've discussed that with him and her multiple times.
So what made you look at it last week? Was the temptation too great?
I think loneliness. Satisfaction as well.
Have you done anything about that? Did you always need sexual gratification? I really think you need to get rid of that if you want to kick this thing with all the other women.
Mr Bond:
I agree porn has to be gone permenantly.
I also have to stop worrying about what the W is doing and continue to work on myself. Looked at phone records tonight and saw that she is now texting a different male co worker 20 times or more a day and having long phone conversations with him. I know she is finally getting the attention she long deserved but it still hurts like hell!
Yes, sex was what the A's were about also.
I also have to stop worrying about what the W is doing and continue to work on myself. Looked at phone records tonight and saw that she is now texting a different male co worker 20 times or more a day and having long phone conversations with him. I know she is finally getting the attention she long deserved but it still hurts like hell!
It will hurt but its what shes believes she wants/needs in her life right now and you need to step back and focus on yourself. Snooping in the phone records wont help you. If you see bad thing (lots of communication with another man) you get hurt. If you see good things(no communication with another man) you gain expectations, which cause issues for you later. Lose-lose situation.
To be honest, if you can't control your sex drive, then you haven't changed. Have you been to sex addiction therapy?
Fogg: your right on brother. I will continue to focus on myself.
Mr Bond: I've not looked at porn in almost 5 months and no sex in 4 months since with my W last. That's way under control for me but I need to do even better and figure out even why the need is there.
So you're on the right track with your behavior. Now keep going. How do you feel when you're not doing something to keep busy? What's your default state? Why?
Zues,
What is a default state?
Currently, when I am not keeping busy, of course I think about my sitch. My W, and my family.
Before the crisis I would feel lonely, bored, sometimes empty when I was not real busy. So I filled it with porn, pursuit of women.
Zues or anyone?
Can I do anything more for my W currently? DB coach says be her friend, don't be pushy, be kind, respectful, keep working on me and show the change when I can. Do nothing about the O Men.
No. You can't do anything to speed up the process. You can only derail it or slow it down. And the bad news is it's not a short road with steady progress and an assured outcome. It's a long, long path, with an outcome that is in doubt, and "progress" can't be measured because your WAW is on a roller coaster so unpredictable you'll never know if you're on the right path. At least not by watching her behavior.
Which is a big reason NOT to. That's the hard part- DBing is about "doing what works". But it's very hard to know what works when your WAW is in the fog. And trying to "steer" her towards the M will drive you insane, because you can't control her, and all you'll do is twine yourself with her crazy dance.
Instead you really have to let go. It's two people overboard in the ocean. You can't save her from drowning when you're still in the ocean yourself. Step one is to get in the boat yourself. This analogy isn't perfect as even once you're in the boat you can't "save" her, but then it still works in that you don't let her pull you back out!
Point is that you REALLY must let go. You have to. I know you don't want to. But she will do nothing but cause you pain and destroy your progress. Maybe you have to go through that for a few torturous months before you learn that lesson. The same way you have to rock bottom before letting go of an addiction. My challenge to you is to let go...IF YOU CAN'T LET GO OF HER WHEN IT'S BAD FOR YOU, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT HER TO LET GO OF OM WHEN (IF) IT'S BAD FOR HER??? Lead by example.
As for a "default state", what I mean is you have to take care of yourself so you feel ok when you're just alone with yourself. In the car. In line at the store. Whatever. If you have to be doing something, thinking hard about stuff, racing around, whatever...at least for me those were ways to avoid my emotions. Emotions that I didn't want to feel because they weren't very fun. That's a red flag, because it indicates that you might feel pretty bad. If so, it's only a matter of time before you backslide on your vices.
Because as I said, you can try to be a "good boy", but if you expect that to change how you feel you're wrong. It only gives you the opportunity to FEEL how you feel, so that you can CHANGE YOURSELF.
So the stopping of medication is great, it gives you a chance to see who you are. Now you can either replace that with racing and avoiding, which is just more medication...or you can sit with those bad feelings, learn where they come from, and start dealing with reality. It's not easy, but it's the only way you can meet life on life's terms and make permanent changes.
Keep posting and NEVER give up.
PS- I would recommend you read my old threads. We are on the same road.
Wow Zues! Thanks for your post. Much to consider and learn from. Letting go and detaching has been the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life thus far. Equally tough will be becoming a better man, its been tough so far and I know I have a long way to go.
The DB coach is right. And in terms of your porn use, I would have your computer blocked if you can't control yourself. Get rid of any magazines or porn items that you have at home so you're not tempted.
Again, have you ever had sex addiction therapy?
Mr Bond
I put some new accountability software on my iPhone and Mac that will help.
I will talk to my therapist again on Tues about where I'm at with this and what his thoughts are about an addiction.
Sounds like a good plan Parker. Also, maybe think about constructive things you might do if you do feel lonely or empty, rather than turning to porn...
Great advice Toots:
Right now I'm staying busy pouring into my son but someday when this crisis ends one way or the other i will need to have other things to occupy me when I'm lonely. I also do a lot of praying and that will continue.
I've had a great week. A lot of ups and downs but to be expected I guess. Focused on myself and my son while I continue to love and respect my W from a distance and she remains in a fog, very distant from me, and unfortunately distant from my son. Meeting with Therapist and also pastor went very well this week. Also joining a Celebrate Recovery small group at my church to continue to work on permanent change and freedom from the porn and infidelity that I allowed to destroy my M, W, & control me for far to long. Staying positive!
Wow. I'm both excited for you and scared for you.
It's such a hard journey. In the beginning you feel optimistic and hopeful. Then it gets hard. Fast. Signs that change is possible are few and far between. It feels like it works for everyone but not for you. Months go by. You feel like you can act normal and play the game, but deep down you're the same person and you're only kidding yourself. You're living a lie. It won't last. Negative thoughts test you. You keep waiting for the positives to come, but they just don't.
But...if you are REALLY fed up with the way your life has been...you keep on the road ANYWAY. Because you're like, "look voice of doubt, I don't know what lies ahead on this path, maybe you're right, maybe nothing...but I DAMN SURE know what lies ahead on that other road...so back off, I'll just walk down this path come what may"...
Eventually you stop looking for progress, you just keep moving. What seems like a lifetime passes. Things change around you. New job. New place to live. Seasons come and go.
Suddenly one day you look around and realize- YOU DID IT!
You're not where you thought you'd be. You're not the way you pictured yourself...but you are the person you hoped you'd turn into. Suddenly it doesn't seem so impossible, or even difficult.
It will be tough. But you CAN do this. Stay on the road and keep posting
Zues:
Is it to early to say it's getting very difficult. Especially coming to the realization last month that this change in me may very well not bring my W or M back. I think detaching and coming to that realization have made it tougher.
Perfect. Now's your chance to change.
You can't change when things are going well. You determine your character by how you act when things are at their worst. So this is actually a blessing, you have a chance to handle difficult emotions in a mature, healthy, and effective way.
What emotions are you dealing with?
How would you have handled them in the past?
What are you going to do instead?
Keep posting. We're here.
Hello:
I went to a celebrate recovery church group Friday night. I was siting among people with life long addictions, bad habits, and behaviors that destroyed their lives and some of their families lives. Many were addicted to drugs and alcohol and a few like me struggled with porn and infidelity. I plan to go weekly for all 8 weeks to try to learn even more about how I can break the cycle. Personal therapy was tough on Friday too. My therapist knows my story and my families story and is now suggesting I file for D as he believes my W is long disconnected from our M. I told him I would not file and he said it may become an issue where it becomes more destructive to me and to my S-9 than do good.
I'm going to be very very patient, loving, respectful to my W and do not feel led to do anything different. I'm focused on me, my S and letting her make the decision about her future.
When I am weak he makes me strong!
Parker, good for you with the group. That sounds like a really worthwhile thing to be doing, and it's good that others are there with similar issues too.
I think you are right about your take on D. Your therapist doesn't get to decide if/when is the right time to file for D - you do. If your W feels that strongly about things, she can always file herself presumably.
Glad to see you are doing this work. I'm sure that, no matter what happens with you and your W, you will be glad to have worked through some of this.
T :-)
Toots:
Thanks! I agree I hurt her and controlled her enough in the past. I feel I owe it to her to let her figure this out and make the decision. I am still focusing on me but yes I still want the M to work.
Let this be a lesson for me for this M or a future one this pain I'm feeling with the OM is horrible and no fun at all. One of the many tough lessons I'm learning.
Zues:
I'm dealing with Anger, hurt/pain, loneliness, anxiety and fear.
Before I would have found another woman to run to to fill the void. I also would have been angry and controlling with my W and S to do my anger and fear. I am doing none of that currently. I remain, loyal, loving, respectful, kind to my W and S even though my W is cold and distant and even though I have fear of the unknown and being alone. I am loving my son much as I can which is a lot! Pouring into him and focused on his health and well being instead of things I cannot control. I am also trying to get more connected with married/christian friends and attending events and getting a life with other that are family people with similar ethics and values.
You're on the right path.
BTW, you need to start a new thread.
Edit - soon - (94 posts) - Cadet
Ok
W sent a email says she's filing this week
How did she put it? Are you okay?
Parker- I'd recommend editing the reply. Verbatim quotes of this nature can be easily found if she ever decided to google search a unique phrase from her email. It may seem unlikely, but it has happened and can have big consequences.
Cadet- are you around? Thoughts on this?
On another note, I am sorry you're feeling so low. I still remember the email I got. It was just like this, only much longer with more stones thrown.
I know this isn't easy to hear right now, but please get a L and know your rights. My WAW said the same thing with a friendly tone and talk of being amicable. Well, a month ago her L sent a financial proposal that would've put me on the street had I signed. THEY SOUND NICE AT THE MOMENT BECAUSE THEY FEEL GUILTY. Once they get the BD over, they are with OM, and they blame you for all the pain...trust me, don't count on her being amicable any more than you count on her to be faithful!
Stinks, but I'd hate to see you add injury to insult.
Praying for you Parker. I believe this is God's way of finding out how sincere you are in your changes, and that you're doing them for you and for him. Please stay strong. You can do this.
When do I write her a letter? Anything else I can do before she files?
New therapist said the last shred of hope is to not control or manipulate anything. Be loving, caring, respectful.