Memento - DivorceBusting.com

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Thanks guys. I feel much better. Might as well start a new thread. No link to old threads or back story. We'll let any newbies that start following me piece it together like Guy Pearce in Memento...maybe there's some benefits to no memory

rppfl. I love your point of view. It's funny, I go from thinking about how strongly I believe in working through the adversity in a M, then I feel the consequences of having a partner that didn't feel that way, and it's easy to get angry again. But I have been working on accepting that she doesn't view things that way, that's her choice, and it will be my choice to find someone that does before getting serious with someone else. NOTE- I have a good couple of years before that point, so time to grow for a while first!

25- yes. I know for sure many of my feelings are selfish. Broken pride. Pain of my loss. Frustration with STBX and God that I don't get what I want in my life. What's more, there is a lot of fear. My biggest fears are that I'm broken, that I'm incapable of being a good enough H to be able to pull off an effective M, and that I'll never be ok on my own because I'll always need someone else's love to make me feel I'm good enough because I feel insufficient. I've felt defeated at times, but I am confronting my "depression" because I learned that I used that feeling bad to try to manipulate others to feel bad for me or change their behavior. That's not who I want to be, and I am not one to be negative if I take away the controlling aspect of it. Point is- I am not burying my head in the sand and pretending I don't have some baggage to sort through. I've got some time though.

Claire- thanks for the good words. Trust me- I do feel I might be better off without STBX. That scares me too, because there again I feel like I'm somehow not being committed/loyal. But yeah, I got a glimpse of what it takes to make a M work: Two people committed to doing just that, and not succumbing to their feelings along the way. She isn't that person at this time, and neither of us were during the M. Just another sad M story.

Time for me to breathe in and out. Maybe I should post a little on some other threads and give back some of my wisdom :P

PS- this from a guy that misspelled my own screen name. That's right. It was supposed to be Zeus. I admit it. But now I like it that way.

Take care all and happy DBing!

Originally Posted By: Zues126

PS- this from a guy that misspelled my own screen name. That's right. It was supposed to be Zeus. I admit it. But now I like it that way.!

I totally love that you said this. It amuses me a great deal.

^^+1!

+2.

It's like a flawed hero thing. (I know who Zeus is, I'm just not willing to call you a god.)

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I'm sick today. Everything is spinning. I'm tired and a bit emotional. 0

You ok, Zues?

Zeus

Just offering a hug for now

V

Zues

we don't have to change every aspect our of lives. The GAL is to help you to detach. Is there any sort of compromise to what you're used to doing? Could you meet some guy friends at a local bar for a few beers while playing a game of pool? Maybe as you slowly incorporate new changes into your life they will start to stick. You shouldn't expect to climb a mountain in one day, tackle it day by day.

It's funny how are personalities in our careers can differ from who we are at home.

One of the docs at my work recently told me I was bossy! I laughed and said I'm not sure if I should be offended. He said it was a compliment in our field of work and I would be his first choice to take care of his children.

However, bossy doesn't work in every aspect of my life. Maybe you being 'intense' has a time and a place. Would that be a 180?

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Aww. This place starts to feel like family. Thanks for checking in on me!

I'm ok. Today I was very sick, but that's ok. I just kept going back to sleep again and again. I was a little loopy and it helped me get a different perspective on a few things.

First off, I will admit I still think of my STBX often. Maybe not the person she is at times, but the person she used to be, the person I thought she was, the person I wished she had been. My mind is still drawn towards the thoughts of where her journey has taken her. Sometimes I hope she's suffering for her choices, mostly I just hope she finds what she needs in life.

I try to turn my thoughts back to me. I will tell you, I am really questioning who I want to be now. All of my life I have been a competitor. Honestly, I did it because I thought I'd be admired for being the best. I always imagined myself with my W in my corner rooting me on, proud of her husband for what he'd accomplished. The truth is that never happened. I look back at endless days and nights practicing pool and wonder sometimes why I needed to do all of that.

This^^ sounds very familiar to me. My h was a veterinarian who then went to medical school and beyond..."always striving, never arriving".

He deferred gratification for so long, I think it all just snapped when he approached 50.

The thing is, yes I was VERY proud of his accomplishments & described him as "the hardest working man" I knew. But when it comes to raising kids and being a partner, it got wearing.

The children are very good at many things but only now & then are they "the best". And that felt like failure to them, in their dad's eyes. It was as if he was telling them that it was "all or nothing".

Perhaps if they'd seen him enjoy the journey, they would have sought the same destination. But it just looked like a lot of "labor intensive Away from home" work to them.

Our son once said this, about the lifestyle changes that came with more income.
"All I knew growing up was that dad worked a lot and now he still works a lot - but the cars are nicer and the house is bigger."

None of them pursued careers in medicine. At the age of 12, our son said "Dad, sorry but I don't think I can be a doctor with you, b/c doctors don't have much time with their families."

Even though SOME doctors do manage their time well, for a 12 y/o to say that, would change some parents.

I think I find it difficult to GAL. I play a lot of online poker. I like to play chess. I like to play pool still. And I study those games. I don't know how to explain it...it's all I know how to do. My whole life I never wondered "what should I do tonight"? The answer was always to drill, train, study, practice. So I find myself doing the same thing out of inertia.

Never underestimate the power of inertia. Overcoming that will be a huge, valuable life skill.

It's funny, I'm a sales professional and people think I'm outgoing and confident. But I'm really introverted. I am a bit different than others. I don't really want to go do new things. I'd rather study chess problems or discuss the way I played a hand of poker with my road partner.

Rambling...point is, I feel I'm not changing much, and it may be slowing my detachment that I'm still doing these same things. On the other hand, it seems to be who I am. I played pool before I met my wife, and when I have a cue in my hand I feel like I know who I am.

And I'm really not interested in whether my STBX or anyone else finds that attractive or not. Anyone that wants a normal guy can go find themselves a normal guy. I'm a bit eccentric, but I'm also quite exceptional in some ways and have a lot of love to give.

I'd equate eccentric with "interesting" and I'd mean it. I doubt I'm alone.

Oh- If I haven't mentioned it before, the word people use to describe me is "intense". People I just meet for 5 minutes use that word. It's always that exact word. "Intense". I think STBX was anxious around me because I was so driven. You have to be a little crazy to devote your life to a game. There are things I can change, 180s I can do, but I don't see this part of me changing. It really is how I'm wired. (I can be sensitive to how others perceive me, I can not apply my standards to their behavior...I can steer my intensity...but I can't abort it altogether).

My advice, fwiw, would be to give yourself a break. Start with that and maybe learn to meditate.

RELAX but most importantly, if you don't want to change OR if you believe you cannot (which is not true)

be very mindful of how your intensity affects others. If you raise them "up" in their energy levels

AND IF they are truly fine with that, be grateful but never expectant.

I can enjoy being influenced by someone else, a lot.

But I don't want them to expect it of me.

Make sense? It'll be a lot easier on the both of you (and your kids) if you can learn to vary the pace a bit.

Might even make it more interesting.

Also, Do Not equate "less intense" with "less concern" or "less ambitious".

Being intense CAN mean being hyper, and with an "intense" temperament, can be seen as domineering or controlling.

Maybe you can add or develop some other traits to balance out the intensity, rather than muting it.

Like making sure to give praise to others who are Not competing, or not asking them to join/explore/study/visit/DO

the things and places you do.

Because when that happens to a child, they usually see it as a test they cannot hope to win.

Example, our children write well. Many times h would say "why don't you enter that story into a contest/mail it to the studio/submit it for a screening?"

To the child, it felt as if they had written a lovely story "for nothing" if it wasn't turned into a "victory" of some sort. My h is very competitive. If he only applied that trait to himself, it would probably still influence them but there'd be a mixed bag b/c some of it IS good.

I'm not complaining about my h (well damn, maybe I am, but that's not the point I'm trying to make!! )

so much as I'm trying to show you how an "intense" parent can help create a child who feels less than.

So if you want to embrace your intensity, fine. Just be very mindful of not applying it to others. We each have a different drummer within, and we should walk to the beat of that drummer, not someone else's.

But so you know Zeus (Zues), I think you've done very well in the reflective area.

(Gee, so I guess YOU WIN!! Kidding...

)

Seriously, there's a lot of powerful BRAVE insights there, and courage is mandatory to making a marriage work b/c a lot of forgiveness goes on in a healthy m

and forgiving takes courage, AS DOES ASKING for forgiveness.

An older happily married couple said something like this on TV last night:

"A good, lasting marriage means 2 people who ask for forgiveness on a daily basis".

In hindsight, that's^^^ very true.

Of course, GIVING the forgiveness is key too. Maybe you can begin with yourself.

Keep on keeping on.

First off, thank you all so much. I went a few months without posting much because I thought I was doing well and wasn't getting a lot of replies other than a one off here or there. Having people actually follow my sitch is really impactful and motivating. It just feels different and I appreciate the support.

T0, it's very funny. When I read your comment about playing pool over a beer with some buddies I just was like...that's not how I play pool, I play pool like it was life and death and give 110% to doing everything I can to win

BUT- you do hit something on the head...I've made friends with a lot of pool players, and I have been spending time with them AWAY from the pool table. Yes, sometimes I am still talking strategy and working on my game, but I am also going to a movie on Saturday with one of them, and have introduce a couple to my kids (two came to my daughters birthday) so I am trying to just "live some life" with them instead of it being 100% about working on my break shot or something. Also- I have been watching the occasional TV show for fun. Like once a week. At first I thought it was cool to never watch TV, because I felt like that was "wasted time". I'm starting to realize that it's ok in moderation, and even potentially GAL if I'm watching the same shows as a friend of mine or something. Finally, I'm getting some "recreational" books. The last 5 I've read were all poker related, excluding "the fighter's mind" which tells how UFC fighters train. I am sharing this to try to give a glimpse at what I'm talking about when I say I am always working.

So GAL is actually doing ok. And though I'm introverted I'm open to meeting new people. I even went to a couple of happy hours with my co-workers (never used to do that) to try to mingle, although that's the only time I'll ever have a beer. Not really my scene I guess, but I'm trying! Another reason that wasn't easy for me is I don't really like being around other women because I feel like even though I'm not looking or ready I don't want to be around available single women. I'm not sure if I have a "personality disorder" per se, maybe...but boundaries are very tricky for me. I have a couple of REALLY close friends, then people in the background. That's why I've always shied away from other women while I was M. And that's why I've only had 2 women in my life, and hope that it remains at 2 or holds at 3! I read about guys talking about all the dates they are going on and I'm NOT jealous. I read about a 50 year M and I am INSPIRED!

25, I appreciate you saying that. I'm guessing my STBX felt the same way in terms of appreciating what I did but just being frustrated at how difficult that made things much of the time. One area I do WELL at is shielding my kids...they don't have to be the best at everything all the time, and they don't have to follow dad's footsteps. In fact, sometimes I think it's a positive that I've achieved so much success in my life I don't need to "live through my kids". They can do what they want, I'm having fun on my own! But seriously, I don't push them to play pool, or compete, or anything. And I RARELY focus on results. Instead, I focus on what they brought in terms of their APPROACH. For example, when my son did his homework I didn't compliment him on how "smart" he was (though he's a genius

) Instead I complimented him on his "focus", and how he didn't allow himself to get distracted. When my daughter paints a picture I don't talk about how "realistic" it looks, instead I talk about how I was proud she didn't give up even though she had been frustrated in the beginning of a mistake, but that she had instead kept going and found a way to work it in and make it part of the bigger picture, and by doing so she ended up with a beautiful picture! Point is instead of focusing on the results, and more specifically how the results could have been better, I focus on what internal success traits they displayed, and celebrate their successes.

There's more. I make time to be "laid back" with my kids. In fact, if anything they're too much like me and I'm trying to teach them young that it's good to be able to shift gears and just chill a bit. I'll cut that short, there's more to it (I used "hyperdrive" mode as an escape/defense mechanism, I'm seeing my son do the same thing, so I'm also trying to help him deal with the stuff he's trying to escape from so he CAN slow down).

So with my kids although I have plenty of room for growth I am very proud of how I'm doing as a dad. You wouldn't have even RECOGNIZED me from the dad I was a year ago. In part, I've HAD to step up both because if I didn't I would lose access to them, and in part because I HAD to because I couldn't always count on STBX to be taking care of everything like I believed in the past. And partly because I've been free to be the dad I want to be without fear of criticism and conflict from my STBX (this is a BIG deal, she is very controlling in the parenting department and I was intimidated by her).

In my M my intensity was a MUCH bigger issue. The funny part is that most of the time I just got run over all of the time. See, in the rest of my life I'm such a juggernaut that I was afraid of running my W over. I didn't want to be the "A type" personality that just didn't let her have her own voice. So instead I feel like I did the opposite. I didn't speak up. I was afraid of conflict. I let her have the final say in almost all decisions. It got to be funny, here I was crushing it in everything else in my life, but afraid to voice my opinion in my very home. But I found out that the opposite of controlling is not to be speechless, but to be "collaborative".

This is something that I need to improve at. I was never much of a team player, because frankly no one could ever match what I brought. That's why I play pool/chess/poker...

The short term problem is that I am pretty much "lawyer only" with my STBX at this point so there's limited opportunity to practice this with HER. Maybe I could've handled things differently and this is actually another example of my "collaboration fail"...hard to know. I checked with my IC and DB Coach and they both felt I was handling it ok and that there's a point when you have to protect yourself against a "loose cannon" (DB Coaches words).

But my DB coach told me to work on my R skills in INTERPERSONAL relationships such as friends/family, and how that's a good gauge of my growth. So I'm working on both speaking up, setting good boundaries, voicing my beliefs with conviction...while still making sure I see the other person's point of view, am willing to compromise and pick my battles, and accept imperfection.

Once again, a long post, but in recap- I'm making SOME progress on 180s, my intensity, and my collaboration...and I APPRECIATE you for the support along the journey!

Zues

What exactly are you doing to work on your Iinterpersonal skills and how are you doing this?

You have told us broadly about speaking up, setting good boundaries, voicing, seeing another's point of view, picking battles and accepting imperfections.

Laudable and where do you see the previous difficulties?

Is this affecting how you interact with yourself?

I sense an undertone of judgement and critique of others including W.

V

Zues, I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. I rarely watch tv (outside an NBA game), read non-fiction almost exclusively, am introverted (but I'm trying), definitely didn't speak up for myself in my M, and always disliked group projects because I thought I could do a better job by myself. I don't describe myself as "intense", but, still, what you wrote resonates with me.

And I, too, have been working on this:

Originally Posted By: Zues126

But my DB coach told me to work on my R skills in INTERPERSONAL relationships such as friends/family, and how that's a good gauge of my growth. So I'm working on both speaking up, setting good boundaries, voicing my beliefs with conviction...while still making sure I see the other person's point of view, am willing to compromise and pick my battles, and accept imperfection.

My IC is always encouraging me to reach out, to speak up. I've been called out here on being controlling, and I think I've come a long way in the "compromise and pick my battles, and accept imperfection" department. Sometimes I find it odd that these two things do seem to go together. I guess we try to tightly control the things we can to make up for the loss of the things we feel we have no input about. We need to work towards a middle ground in both places.

I like V's questions, exactly what are you doing to work on these?

V- yes, I would say I'm judgmental and critical. It took me a long time to write this because I don't FEEL like I am. I feel like I am more tolerant and patient than a saint. To explain I feel I need to break a DB rule and talk about my R with myself.

I was a youngest child in a home with impossible standards. I had four siblings 3-6 years older than me that were always bigger, smarter, and would often reject and exclude me. If we played games I ALWAYS lost and I grew to hate to lose. My dad had impossible standards. When I was the best pool player in my 70K population city at the age of 17, my dad would talk about some of the things the best players in the world did and ask if I was working on learning any of that type of stuff. Basically, it was implied that anytime I took anything on I wasn't competing with anyone else around me because I was SUPPOSED to be the best, I was always expected to be the greatest.

The feelings that plagued me growing up were INSUFFICIENCY AND REJECTION. UNACCEPTABLE. DO BETTER. Not even in the right ball park. This is a joke. No excuses. Somewhere I decided the way to cope with this was to be the BEST IN THE WORLD at pool. Be so far beyond reproach that no one could possibly judge or criticize me. And I told myself that when I got there, I'd be ADMIRED AND APPRECIATED FOR MY SACRIFICE.

From 12-18 I practiced 12 hours a day. Every day. Christmas. Easter. Thanksgiving. School days. Weekends. Every day. All day. If I wasn't on the table I was "losing ground". Look at all those clowns "celebrating holidays" and "going out on the weekend with friends". That was the difference. I was going to be the best because NO ONE wanted it as much as me. No chance. I'd cut school at noon when the poolhall opened, play until midnight, then go home and practice the shots I missed until early in the morning. I'd set up a tough shot and practice it 100 times. That might take 2 hours. Then when I was at 94, 95, if I thought I was "going through the motions to get to 100" I'd get enraged at myself, I'm not doing this to get to 100, I'm doing this to master this shot and become the best in the world. Now do it right! Just for that I'm going to 125! Get it right or I'll make it 250! Any whimper, any complaint, and sense of weakness, it ENRAGED ME and I stomped it out, buried it under anger. I was super sensitive to criticism and rejection, and I turned all of that pain into anger, and took it out on myself one day at a time. I believed that the success I achieved was linked to the pain I could endure. I was going to be the best in the world because no one would be willing to go through the flaming hell I was walking. I would lose all of my competition. No one would suffer like me. Were the flames hot? TURN THEM UP HOTTER. Someday everyone would see...

This lead to my inner self finally rebelling. I quit the game, let everything go, and started over on life. At the age of 23 when I met my wife I "felt" like I was pretty normal. What I've learned is that my idea of normal compared to how I used to live is still pretty extreme. While we were together I became one of the best pool players in the state, winning many tournaments, playing professional tournaments while holding a full time job. I was #1 at work. ALWAYS. NO ONE could touch me. I was the gingerbread man. I destroyed every goal I set my eyes on. And I felt like I wasn't even trying! Why? Because I was learning how to express my gifts while enjoying the journey, instead of trying to prove anything I just like to RUN.

OK- Finally- how did I treat my W? I am POSITIVE that I held her to very high standards, and punished her for not hitting them (or not trying to hit them). I didn't feel like I was being unreasonable because I wasn't holding her to anything like MY standards. For example, on a 1-100, I'd expect myself to be 98-99. From her I'd be like, "well, not everyone can be upper 90s, but surely you can do 80, or 75. I mean you could at least strive for it!" But she might not have felt like that was important to her at all, and she wouldn't even try.

I never treated anyone else this way. Not my kids, my friends. I think the problem was she was so CLOSE to me, and I DEPENDED on her in so many way. I needed her to constantly be ACCEPTING and APPRECIATIVE because those were the things I'd always been denied and I thought she was the one that was supposed to meet those needs. When she didn't (or couldn't) I thought she had failed, and that she was doing an UNACCEPTABLE job. I was rarely angry in the sense of shouting or physical acts, but if my intensity level hasn't come through yet I'll just say that my furnace burned very hot.

Eventually she just couldn't do it. She said she felt "she'd never be the woman I wanted her to be". She was tired of my "expectations". She just wanted to "be herself and find someone that accepted her for her".

What's funny is that I probably could've told myself the same thing at times so I get how she feels.

OK- sorry for the long post. I could go on but this is already a ton. My point here is not to blame my parents, not to get retro, but to try to explain how I was critical and judgmental to my wife, and why I thought I was being very patient and reasonable.

This is so strange and seems so contradictory to what I wrote about not having a "voice" in my M. But it does fit.

See, deep down I knew I wasn't normal. I felt like I was screwed up somehow. Although in some ways I felt superior and like she was lucky to have me, I also knew that I was lucky to have anyone that put up with my baggage. So all the while I was desperate to earn her acceptance and approval.

I read Sandi's list of "abusive traits". I was definitely "impossible standards", and I also used "rejection" to punish and control. I felt like I was doing it to protect myself, because I felt so much pain when I opened myself to her and she didn't respond warmly. That is why I felt I needed porn, it wouldn't reject me or turn me down. My experience with others was that no one would ever understand how sensitive I really am. And how easily I get hurt.

This stuff isn't easy to turn off.

Zeus, it is not easy to turn off.

You describe quite a great deal of childhood difficulty, followed by pushing yourself to achieve in your chosen field.

Some of your descriptions of your interaction with W appear to me to be seeing W as an extension of yourself, rather than as her own person. Have you consider this?

Perhaps it's time to address your childhood wounds? Openness with others is a two way street, you can consider if you open up to others gradually they may do the same. This is unlike a vending machine, put the coins in and the item is delivered.

As humans we are all sensitive and easily hurt, each of us believes we are unique in this, your W response is to protect herself from hurt because as a human she too is sensitive.

I have no moral judgement on the use of porn, I feel the real thing is much better and is more in line with my view of my higher power. The criminal stuff is exactly that criminal and to be treated as such.

A sense of superiority over others may be required to boost us. You may find as you heal, become more open, and learn that you are not a special snowflake that being human is more than enough. We all have skill sets, some have more economic value than others, some give us more fame, more power and discretion. But as humans we all have value, we are equal. You may also find that you like yourself and have accepting ways of yourself and others.

Frankly only you will care about your 'intensity' as all of us have ideas, beliefs which are core to us. What you describe as intensity others may see as focus or concentration which when applied to what is important to us is mindful and positive. When you see this as flow instead then it is other than painful and with more relaxation your goals will be achievable and enjoyable. Enjoy your life, your achievement and your 'intensity'.

So I return to my original question about your plan for dealing with this.

V

I think the reason I saw my W as part of me and was so controlling was that I felt if I didn't control her to love me, she wouldn't. I realized that be trying to force her to love me it had the opposite effect. But deep down I felt like no one could possibly love me for who I am, or want to meet my needs because there was something wrong with me.

Thoughts I still wrestle with is that no women could ever understand my sexual desire, or they will reject me if they did. Or that I would never be able to live up to a woman's standards and she would inevitably leave me.

I wrestle with this quite a bit. I read articles on "healthy relationships", "self improvement", etc. This site is based on self growth. But I'm scared of that too. The message that frightens me is that "you have to become a better person or you aren't worthy of a woman's love". So it's strange, I wan't to be a better person, I want to learn to make my future partner feel more loved, I want to overcome my addictive tendencies. But I am frightened by the thought that I will never measure up, and that I don't deserve to be loved because I'm not good enough.

Take Sandi's article about 10 abusive R traits. It concludes we shouldn't have to deal with this in an R. I have to admit my behavior put me in that group and I get frustrated because I don't want to be but feel stuck. And I'm like, "great, just because I can't live up to these expectations, does that mean women shouldn't love me or stay with me?" Was my W right to leave me? Do I not deserve to have a partner?

These are some thoughts I really wrestle because I don't know how much different I can ever really be. And I am so tired of "not measuring up", I try so hard every day of my entire life, sometimes I feel it's a game I just can't win. My DB coach said not to worry about all of this, and not to focus on what's "wrong" with me, but instead to make good decisions one at a time and celebrate that I could do many things right. I think she meant to get me to focus on the fact that it wasn't "all or nothing", and that I'm not "innately" broken, and that I can learn to handle things with time.

So what are my plans for dealing with this? Right now, it is to avoid firing up my defense mechanisms and self medication. In the past when I felt insufficient, vulnerable, rejected, etc, I'd FIRE UP THE ENGINES. I'd turn those negative feelings into energy, set a target, and go climb a mountain or slay a dragon to "prove those feelings wrong".

Now a days I'm trying to SLOW DOWN. BE STILL. Sit with those feelings. Let myself feel them and not REACT. I am trying to listen to what they tell me, without having to immediately reject them or prove them wrong.

That's pretty vague, I'll admit. But it's a little about humility, a little about being ok with a little pain in my heart, learning to be rejected or criticized without having to amplify that pain in my mind. That's what I mean by saying I'm trying to avoid defense mechanisms.

Avoiding self medication is the other. Porn has been a tough battle to win. I quit for around six months, then gave up and started watching it again. I'm back off it, but don't feel like I've "overcome" it yet. I haven't shared much of my struggles on this board because frankly I feel like it is judged much more harshly than other things. Alcoholism is almost socially acceptable, on this board WW's being in a EA/PA is almost standard and we aren't to take it personally, but mention PORN and it feels like the message is "your W was right to leave you you pervert". Which isn't easy to hear when you agree deep down. And when I have struggled I once again fall back into excuses such as "MANY men watch porn and are still M, why is it that I am expected to be perfect before I deserve love?"

In addition to my abstinence from porn, I'm not doing workaholism, or anything else. So basically I AM trying to avoid defense mechanisms and medication, slow down and sit with my fears, nurture myself, and prove that even if I'm very flawed I can still make OK decisions much of the time, day by day. I am working with my IC on developing confidence in being able to handle my problems without having to run or compensate. My psychiatrist (I see 15 minutes twice a year) commented that I seem to have more problems than ever, but I'm handling them better than ever before.

PS- I read NMMNG and that fit me well. So when I speak of being more open about who I am, what I want, my boundaries, it is my way of trying to learn to express myself and be ok with who I am.

Zues, I identify with some of what you say. I came from an academic family, where much value was placed on academic success. I followed my brother and sister who were straight A students across the board. There didn't seem any way to do any better than them, so I kind of flunked for a while and gave up. Then I went to university as a mature student on my terms and got a lot out of it.

I think in your case, it may be worth thinking about 'being' and 'doing.' In your life, like many of us, you have placed much emphasis on doing - and doing it well. But you, like me sometimes, have a lingering sense that you are not good enough. Must do better. So must your W. But if we can learn to truly accept ourselves, we are blessed indeed.

You mention becoming better as part of DBing. But better in your case may not mean pushing harder. Better may mean accepting yourself and others as crooked staffs. For that is what we all are - flawed human beings. And we seek someone to love us in all our glorious frailty. Yes there will be things we do well. And others we don't. And sometimes we are just still learning. But that is okay. That's humanity.

Yes Toots. Being ok with being imperfect is something I've been working on. I think I'm ok with myself more these days. Now I just hope I can be "ok" enough for someone else to remain with me.

I read an interesting article on the links between entitlement, resentment, and abuse. It said that we are more entitled these days and feel others should make us happy. When they don't we become resentful. And out of resent stems abuse. Here's a clip:

"Resentment makes you feel like a victim - it feels like someone else is controlling your thoughts, feelings, and behavior - it comes with a built-in retaliation impulse. If you're resentful, you are probably in some way emotionally abusive to the people you love. You have devalued, demeaned, sought to control or manipulate and deliberately hurt the feelings of loved ones. But you've been so focused on what you don't like about their behavior that you haven't noticed what you don't like about your own. You probably have not grasped that resentment has made you into someone you are not."

This was really helpful to read. See, I never FELT like I was being emotionally abusive. I never was in my first serious R, and I don't think of myself that way. But I can see how I allowed my resentment to keep me focused on my pain and see myself as a victim even as I hurt my W in attempts to control her behavior.

Where it gets additionally hard to keep your eye on the ball is that some R's have this dynamic on both sides, and when your partner does inappropriate things it's easy to focus on their sandbox so to speak. The post BD days have taught me that I have to be the person I am supposed to be regardless of how WAS handles herself, or regardless of how I feel.

I truly believe that I have the potential to do better in a few ways. I think I can let go of many of my expectations about my partner. I think I can accept an imperfect relationship better than I did before. I think I can be more accountable for my behavior, handle my emotions, and not let them control me. I don't think I will act this way again.

The hard part for me is knowing what 'expectations' are reasonable. I am NOT doing this hypothetical exercise to justify my behavior or even to take focus off of it. I am sincerely trying to figure out how I could behave differently in difficult circumstances. See- I was a manager for 5 years. I learned a LOT about how other people would RARELY live up to my expectations. I was simply much more driven, which is why I had a management position. I learned to bring out the best in what I had to work with. However, with that being said- there were times when I would have to terminate an employee. It wasn't just that they weren't living up to MY standards, they weren't even meeting COMPANY standards.

In my M I truly felt my W wasn't just failing to meet MY standards. I felt she was doing a failing job, to the point at which if she was an employee I would have fired her. That is why I nearly was a WAH in 2011. I decided for myself that I would rather stay in a bad M for life than get a D, and that I'd rather die trying to have a good M. But she didn't.

So the question is- with all of our growth, etc...what happens if we're in another M in 3-5 years, and our spouse is just a terrible, terrible partner? I am fairly confident that if I had a spouse that was as committed to a good M as the members of this board are I could find a way through. But when someone is just disengaged, doesn't seem to care, and is willing to accept a bad M and just 'work around it' for many years...that is hard for me. I'm not sure if I could handle that without growing resentment.

I see Sandi and other WW's wrestled with this. I'm just so confused by these things right now (still sick in bed and on Dayquil, doesn't help). Obviously we can do our best to find a partner that shares our desire for a good M, but assuming you get fooled and that doesn't work...how do you handle settling for a bad M? Or by settling for a bad M do you somehow make it better?

Love to hear some thoughts, again, I feel like I'm slowly getting healthier, but I'm still not sure I would have succeeded if you gave me a "redo" over the last few years. My M was so bad.

And I know that DBing is all about how you can change you and change your whole M. So maybe this is just like asking the meaning of life. Like I said, just foggy today. I truly hope someday I can make a good M with someone, and that I can allow myself to appreciate it warts and all.

Toots has some wisdom here, this is your 180 to be just to be.

Can we examine self worth for a moment?

Firstly all humans are a mixture of traits. Some good, some bad, some funky. We have bodies, minds and emotions. We are who we are. Often we forget that just who we are is good enough. We have rights and amoung those is a right to acceptance by others.

We are worthy of love, to love and to be love. People of all types are love. Spiritually we connect to the universe we channel the power around us. love is not a scarce resource, love is about abundance, there is loads of it, everywhere. Love of all types, for family, friends, spouses, children and ours lives. We are worthy of love because we are beings.

If you have an addiction to porn then you do. My H is a gambler, he will always be a gambler. it needs managing, as it is destructive to H. Any addiction needs managing probably for life, it is destructive to the soul because it is an addiction. If you were addicted to second life for example or Internet shopping that would need managing. More power to you to manage it and hold to it.

Anyone who judges you for your addiction is judging themselves. Porn with children, animals, abuse, force etc is criminal and straying into those areas will get you arrested and is cancerous all around. It is the compulsive addictive part which is additionally damaging for all reasons. That judgement, criticism and ostracising is very unhelpful. The difficulties with addictions is escalation which causes dissatisfaction with that which would otherwise be satisfying. Joe said the same thing about his wife's occupation.

The only person causing your dissatisfaction with you is..... You. You have set your target so high that it is impossible to achieve. It is ok to be you, it is ok to fail, it is ok to succeed, it is ok to be human. You do not have to be Zeus the God of all. You can be you, with your quirks and foibles and oh yes, an addiction to manage. You can be in recovery with addiction rather than abstaining.

You ask do you 'deserve' to have a partner? Only you can decide that and behave accordingly. There is a lot of work to do. And with due respect how can someone who sees you for 15 minutes know how you are?

As Toots says, stop doing and start being. We are human beings not human doings.

V

Healthy painfully honest discussion going on here.

Bravo to all engaging in it.

Here's a letter from a WAW to an LBH (not hers, but another guy here) and she's replying to his question of why his wife won't return, now that he's changed...

See if any of it could have been written by someone you know.

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM�.

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments.

I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_____________

Very interesting conversation happening over here. I can relate to a lot of the discussion. Sometimes I wonder how many of us fall into this personality type. I like the idea of a 180 to "just be".

Zues - glad to see you back here a bit more often. I did follow you before and became concerned about your increasingly negative outlook on things (I needed to distance myself from it a bit for my own PMA). I'm so glad to see that you are back and really doing some digging. This time round - I am inspired by you!

25- I've read that before. I think the reason I react to it negatively is that the message I get is criticism, judgment, and rejection. It seems to reinforce the message that I was not good enough to warrant a loving and committed partner.

The idea that if my WAW talks to another man it will make me look like more of a failure in her eyes. That I have screwed up so bad it would take her years to believe I was worthy of being worth a second look, much less a second chance. You know what? I don't need that.

Really? Every time someone leaves a M it is the LBS's fault for being a failure? I don't really agree with that.

I DO need to own my mistakes and address them. And I am doing so for me. I have been humbled from the experience, and don't question why my WAS was so hurt. I can understand her reason for feeling she had to D. I don't like the person I was during periods of our M, and I sincerely regret the pain she suffered. And no, I don't pretend to know the depths.

I DON'T, however, agree with her decision. I don't believe in D. I believe that many M's are bad enough that someone could've written a letter like that at some point, but some people stick it out and work through it. I know I could've written that letter myself, and in fact was just posting about how I would still have a hard time coping with the M while I was in it. I'm not sure she ever understood the depth of MY frustration with the M either. I just wouldn't have walked away. That's not even JUDGING her for doing so. Just something I apparently feel differently than her about.

I'm not feeling defensive right now either. I'm just tired of resentment and anger. I've mostly forgiven her for her failings in the M, and mostly forgiven her for leaving me. And I have mostly forgiven myself for my destruction in the M as well. I am still sorting through it because I want to learn to do better, but I am not going to crucify myself because I failed in many ways. THAT'S a big 180 for me in itself. In the past I would've thought that "the more I torture myself for my mistakes the more I'll learn from them and the better I'll be", but the problem is that model never worked for me.

So I'm not going to worry about what WAW thinks of me, or why she's doing what she's doing. As you've said "that's her sandbox". I DO still have a lot of work to do to sort through my own playbook and take a few out that don't belong there.

Thank you all for taking the time. And 25, if I'm missing the point please let me know. It's totally possible my own sensitivity to rejection/shaming/criticism is coming out, even though I'm feeling pretty calm and present right now. (It doesn't hurt I've had enough dayquil to talk to animals...)

I hope I am a giraffe!

Always wanted to be a giraffe........

V

Just wanted to say thanks to all for posting. I'll try to post more frequently and shorter so it's easier to follow. I think it's cool, at BD I was checking my cell every 20 minutes to see if my WAW had texted/emailed. These days I'm checking the forums to see if SS is back or if 25 has barbecued me for my reaction to her post yet.

I've done a good job today slowing down. Just breathing.

Proud of my GAL. I was working in a city I know my friend works, I texted him and sure enough he met me for lunch. It was really cool. Tomorrow I am meeting a buddy to play some pool at 2. Before that I am meeting another friend at 11:30 for a few games of chess and a cup of coffee. He's my dad's 72 year old friend that I stayed with for a few months (Sept-Nov 14). I enjoyed the time there because he had no TV, internet, cell phone, or shower. We meditated and did a form of yoga, played chess, read poetry, and just enjoyed each other's company. I've made a point to stay in touch with him and appreciate his influence in my life. Sunday I am having a friend over to play some poker online and hang out. I will also get some work done as I was out sick a few days this week.

Tonight I will watch another TV show, post a little bit more, and reread some books I read when I was younger. I like that because it makes me remember who I used to be, and who I am.

Question of the day...at this time I'd say my M is on my mind maybe 30-60 minutes a day. Not necessarily my STBX...but my M, my STBX, my role in it, my feelings, etc. Probably 10 minutes in the shower, a little time in the car, stuff like that. I don't get HUNG UP on it for any length of time, but it is clearly still in the forefront of my emotional management.

Is this abnormal? Does this mean I should do anything differently? I'm not too perturbed yet, funny, I still feel like it's pretty fresh (especially considering nothing's been signed). Just thought I'd poll the audience.

OK, fail on keeping it short. Just hope you guys know how much I like all of you!

Zues, I'd be glad to get down to 30/60 minutes. That would be an achievement for me I think. Although I do lots of other things and am moving forwards, I still give H more headspace than he (and I!) deserves...

T x

30 to 60 minutes per hour. thats about my pace.
30 out of every 60 minutes - i'd be happy with that ATM.
per day - can't even imagine it

OK- bigger question came up.

Just got an email from STBX. It is suddenly a very reasonable tone (not warm or nice, but not crazy and nasty). It basically says:

"The kids tell me you've been talking to them about religion, and are thinking about taking them to church. Is this just for Easter or would this be a regular thing? Where are you taking them? This is the kind of thing that we should be able to discuss."

Before I reply I have to work through my emotions. Here are a few of my emotional reactions:

-The truth is I can't commit to an action plan. I was going to take them to a church that my married friend and his family go to, so the kids could spend more time with their family, I could spend time with that couple, and I could let my kids learn a bit more about religious values. If things were doing well I might keep going. If I felt I wanted to move them to a different church nearer me, or if I grew troubled with the lessons at that church, I might switch or cease. Finally, right now I have them from Friday night to Sunday night every other week. That's so short I hesitate to commit to taking them all the time. I am trying to have this moved to Friday night through Monday morning, that would make it much easier. But that is being proposed in the parental agreement that will be sent soon.

-It doesn't feel fair that I am stuck answering to this person that has brought so much destruction to my family. People on the board say "she'll be in your life forever". It stinks. It feels like she gets to stab me in the heart, then keep coming back to reopen the scab every time it starts to heal by poking and prodding me. I am just doing my best as a dad, sensing what the kids need and crave that is healthy, and trying to steer them towards better things. I hate that I have to raise my children on eggshells watching over my shoulder to see if she'll try to intervene.

-I don't trust her at all. Her last few interactions were so nasty and dishonest I had resolved to work through lawyers only. On the one hand that would be my preference both due to my feelings above, and secondly to protect myself from the drama/spew/manipulation that have come.

-I have no faith that we'll ever agree on anything anyway. Responding seems like I'm agreeing that she has a vote or veto power in my choices. Does she? Another reason to want to work through L only is because I frankly want to know my rights before I get negotiated into something that costs me my freedom to do what I feel is right for my children.

Clearly I have some work to do. It's funny with the grieving process...I may be close to acceptance on the loss of my STBX...but that doesn't mean I'm not still in other stages of grief with the consequences of the D. Shoot, some of them I'm just learning about. I guess I just have to journal my feelings, experience them, and then do what's right.

What is right? Should I talk to my L and DB coach before replying? My reactive/nasty response would be to either not reply, or to let her know I'd prefer to work through L's only from here. I'm confused because while on the one hand this preference is coming from a negative emotional spot, that doesn't mean it's not the best option given how she's conducted things.

If nothing else I could just send a "let me get back to you on that" and then talk to my DB coach.

But I'm still sorting/brainstorming, so let me hear your thoughts.

hey Zues,

great discussion. really resonates here too. I think I have jumped ahead a few steps as a result of some things which you have discussed.

can i ask - where are are your kids?

a lot to think about now. so many similarities with my life, my intensity, my expectations of myself, an my wife. she cops it - the kids dont, nobody else does.

we had 8 great years before it started going downhill. this thinking gives me a new angle on where it started to go wrong. how this helps me with the M now i dont know.

briefly, your STBX? was it this way with you from BD. I think this is so with me. it is early days but OM already in the picture of course - always the route out. like you I was potentially at that point a long time before she was, but I resolved to stick it out in the M - i dont know how much i really expected it to ever change though. whats wrong with us, why did we push them away?

i almost wanted it to go all the way to the brink, and then reel it back in. but she, understandably, just wants calm. so she just let go of her end of the rope. but thats not fair i say, thats not how you play, we have to both pull on the rope until we end up in the mud together - then find our way out.

Hi Zues, is it best to just keep this simple & answer...

Yes W, I'm taking them to X church over Easter. We may go again - I'll see how they feel about it.

I wonder if you are over-thinking this?

T x

do you have to get right back to her? mine NEVER does me. if at all. i have learnt the hard way - when in doubt, leave it out. even better - wait, wait, wait

i would leave out the questions. in my case thats just inviting a response. i get baited, and then all hell breaks loose. But my sitch is still very raw

Love that response! Thanks toots! You made handling that look easy! Any other thoughts?

Pyrite, thanks for the reply. Kids are with STBX primarily, I get them every other weekend and one night a week. I am working with my L to get the D going, we should have a parenting agreement to her shortly, then we'll nail down the finances. Trying to go lawyers only, if that fails we involve the courts. I agree with your recap of how things played out during the M. I'm going to hold off on a post BD recap because that could turn into an essay as long as the sum of my posts since then

One thing I'm REALLY PROUD OF is that I'm FACING my emotions. I was just reminded of this because of the post I made on Dani's thread. Basically I never handled emotions before. Remember that intensity? Anything that didn't feel good, I repressed it, turned the hurt into anger, fired up the engines, then tuned everything out and focused on winning world titles (or whatever). So it was this weird cycle both with me and with my M:

ME: Emotions ===> Pain ===> Anger ===> Repression ===> GOAL DRIVEN ACTIVITY (as an escape)

M: Emotions ===> Pain ===> Expectations STBX would cheer me up ===> disappointment ===> resentment ===> emotionally abusive response to manipulate her behavior

Some of my posts may seem like I'm pretty ineffective at handling emotions...but I'm SO PROUD of myself. It feels so empowering to be able to meet them head on, and just handle them. Yes, it feels bad at times, it's not easy. But as a result I RUN MY LIFE and MY FEAR OF MY EMOTIONS DON'T RUN ME. This also has allowed me to be more in the moment, be slower, and just BE.

THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT ALONG THE WAY!

Zeus,
Just briefly since I'm on my phone. ..

Do you and your W follow the same religion? I think questions regarding the religious education of children should be discussed.

She brought it up calmly, simply stating that this is something to be discussed. ..not even that she disagrees with you about it.

If you have a big difference of opinion or religious beliefs, how will you handle that?

same - trying to avoid courts. frustrated as hell. I am doing all the compromising here. I didn't want D. I am the one who has blown up mentally and physically. I am the one sick with pain and anxiety, can't eat or sleep. Now she is telling me where I am going to live to have a chance at having the kids regularly. While she gets to plot out her new life, with new OM. She hasten posted FB pics entitled "Fun w my family" (day after Seperation), reverted to maiden name, changed profile picture to her and OM. BUT reality is that if we go to court it will likely be worse!

Originally Posted By: Zeus

I agree with your recap of how things played out during the M.

...strange, I was only talking about my sitch. Is it that similar to your own that you thought I was recapping yours? granted - I was using your words.

sounds like you have genuinely come a long way. congrats.

She is Christian. I was raised Christian. I would be taking them to a Christian church.

When we were together they weren't introduced to religion at all. STBX lead the parental decisions. Not sure why Church was never brought up. We never discussed these things.

I am not a strong believer. But as I've been a more active father it didn't sit well that they didn't know anything about the teachings of Christ, or his life. They didn't know the story of the resurrection, things like this. We got to talking, and they were hungry to hear more. I want to share this religion with them since they want to learn about it and I feel it is so powerful. Just because I'm still searching for meaning in my life doesn't mean I should hold off on talking to them until I figure it out. I never will, and sometimes it's more about sharing in the searching than the finding anyway.

Oh- yes, she was reasonable and not disagreeable in this email. The last two she was hostile, threatening, dishonest, manipulative, and conniving. If someone communicates in that fashion 2/3 times do I want to play along when they "choose" to act human? Am I teaching her what I will respond to? Or am I being a sucker to even talk to a lady that would act in those ways?

Lot of sorting to do, thanks!

oh yah - i forgot - you mentioned

Originally Posted By: Zeus

Sandi's article about 10 abusive R traits.

where is it?

If it were me I think I would say

"Christian same as both of us WW, there are some fun Easter events at church for the kids to go to'

Leave the I am going to introduce Christain values conversation back burner until you get to that point.

V

Originally Posted By: Zues126

-It doesn't feel fair that I am stuck answering to this person that has brought so much destruction to my family.

People on the board say "she'll be in your life forever"

Just a point about this.
I know it seems like forever but it wont be.
In fact things will continue to change and evolve.

Actually this whole thing is a 180 for you about religion and probably caught her off guard.
So maybe she is testing you to see if this change is real.

Also I think being a great DAD is very attractive!
And tbh so is being a great MOM.

I agree that Toots gave you great advice.
And usually the less said the better.

Have a great Easter.

Thank you Cadet! And congrats and what a nice job you've done!

Someone recently posted that "she'll be in my life forever"...you're right. While this is literally true, she won't always play such a role in my emotions.

And you're right about the 180. To be fair, I was very hesitant for this very reason. I went to church with my friend a bit when I was staying with him right after BD (last June-August). I have been so confused. I love the teachings of the church, I believe in the values, the prayer, reflection, etc. I even talk in ways that indicate I'm a believer (trusting God, turning my life over to him, etc), but it's more of a "I believe in the practicality of this approach" thing.

Point is, due to my ambiguity I DIDN'T rush my kids to church with me out of the blue and start thumping a bible. I did, however, tell my children about it, little by little. So I want to be clear we're not leaping into anything from 0 to 60. I won't try explaining that to STBX, just wanted y'all to know.

I am excited at the idea though. It is very good for them.

Oh, and guess what- it didn't occur to me in a million years that it would be potentially attractive to my WAW. I guess the thought of her feeling anything but resentment towards me stopped occuring to me a while ago. What she thinks about me isn't important to me, but the fact that it ISN'T important to me IS.

Zues, it sounds as though you are making some great progress in respect of your feelings. What you posted reminded me of stuff I have read in Andrew G Marshalls' books. He says that men in particular are taught to 'act' rather than examine their feelings. Men often think feelings are a sign of weakness - big boys don't cry - and so they are best denied, suppressed or intellectualised into submission.

So from this starting point, being able to recognise, name, accept and understand your feelings is a big step forwards. Andrew says some men need permission to listen to their feelings and work out the complex brew of emotions bubbling under the surface. This is much healthier than just getting ambushed by them, avoiding them, walking away from them, getting angry and so on.

Good for you! T x

Originally Posted By: Toots

He says that men in particular are taught to 'act' rather than examine their feelings. Men often think feelings are a sign of weakness - big boys don't cry - and so they are best denied, suppressed or intellectualised into submission.

I think feelings and emotions are also more controlled by the hormone - estrogen
Where as testosterone is more for muscle power.(think cave man and club)
I think genetics and evolution have helped to make us this way, as men were the hunters and woman the nurturers and gathers.

Of course this changes as we get older and the hormones revert to the way they were prior to puberty.

I.E. they become the OPPOSITE of what we once were.

Sound familiar?

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I really like how you identify why you reacted negatively. You are owning your feelings without blaming others for "making" you feel that way. Good.

I wasn't saying you were terrible as a h, and yes I do recall most of your "issues".

Yes, some of them were lousy, (sorry but it's the truth) but I am fairly confident that you "get" those and most importantly, I think you are not the same man you were.

Mainly I wanted to remind you that your wife was in a lot of pain BEFORE she did what she did. It was a terrible reaction on her part and since then, she's made several other unhealthy choices to boot.

Just don't forget that most of us (me included) live in glass houses. It's crucial to recall that when we feel like tossing a few pebbles/rocks/boulders towards our spouses. We ought to look in the mirror to work on the only one worth mentioning in terms of flaws, i.e. ourselves. It harms our kids to aim at their parent and it serves no good purpose for us (with the possible exception of those who have not detached at all and are seeing their spouses thru rose colored glasses, MAYBE they benefit by criticizing their ex's.)

However, You seem "on your way". My advice for your life, now, would be ironic

- but it's to recall a simple phrase from our vows (most of us had these vows anyhow)

Meaning, go "from this day forward." So Learn from your past and then,

let it go.

I believe those words ^^ are crucial to living well, and certainly are needed for enjoying our marriages. ;

I've done a good job today slowing down. Just breathing.

Proud of my GAL. I was working in a city I know my friend works, I texted him and sure enough he met me for lunch. It was really cool. Tomorrow I am meeting a buddy to play some pool at 2. Before that I am meeting another friend at 11:30 for a few games of chess and a cup of coffee. He's my dad's 72 year old friend that I stayed with for a few months (Sept-Nov 14). I enjoyed the time there because he had no TV, internet, cell phone, or shower. We meditated and did a form of yoga, played chess, read poetry, and just enjoyed each other's company. I've made a point to stay in touch with him and appreciate his influence in my life. Sunday I am having a friend over to play some poker online and hang out. I will also get some work done as I was out sick a few days this week.

Sounds life living well.

Tonight I will watch another TV show, post a little bit more, and reread some books I read when I was younger. I like that because it makes me remember who I used to be, and who I am.

Question of the day...at this time I'd say my M is on my mind maybe 30-60 minutes a day. Not necessarily my STBX...but my M, my STBX, my role in it, my feelings, etc. Probably 10 minutes in the shower, a little time in the car, stuff like that. I don't get HUNG UP on it for any length of time, but it is clearly still in the forefront of my emotional management.

Is this abnormal? Does this mean I should do anything differently? I'm not too perturbed yet, funny, I still feel like it's pretty fresh (especially considering nothing's been signed). Just thought I'd poll the audience.

Sounds normal to me. If you can get your mind OFF it to function in other areas, especially interacting with your kids, I'd say it's fine.

When I really confronted my anger, the single biggest reason was that it was consuming me and that meant I wasn't truly "available" to my children. Too preoccupied and distracted. Keep an eye out for that.

OK, fail on keeping it short. Just hope you guys know how much I like all of you!

Today was the perfect day.

It started with me sleeping in a bit, reading in bed, playing some online chess, and posting on the forums.

Then I met my dad's old friend, who is now my friend. We hung out, got lunch and coffee, and played two games of chess. (Two out of two not that I'm hyper competitive).

Then I went with my best friend and road partner to the poolhall. We started playing doubles against two other top players in my state. I haven't played much in the last few months, been switching to poker, but I feel like MYSELF at the pool table. We split four sets, I wasn't playing great partly due to the layoff and partly because we were playing cheap and "friendly" (we're all friends, after a while you all know each other). I don't play well cheap. I need the pressure.

So then somehow I talk them into playing one longer set and quadrupling the bet. Suddenly I ZONED OUT. Holy smokes guys, I forgot what it feels like to play my game. I told you I haven't been competing much the last few months. Sometimes I forget how good I really play. It's like discovering you have a super power you forgot about. For the next hour I was playing world class pool, where you can slice balls in from anywhere and spin the cue ball multiple rails through gaps of balls and land it on the speck of lint on the table you were looking at when you planned it out. Making the toughest table around look like it was a bar table. We won handily and they didn't want to play anymore.

If I had to live my life over again it's unlikely I would re-devote that much time to the game. But man, since I have the talent I am going to use it. I decided I won't quit pool, I'll keep playing because it does make me feel like myself, I love the game and the challenge, and it even gives me a confidence boost. Not because I think I'm special or better than anyone else, but it's hard to not turn in a performance like that and not feel good about it!

FINALLY- I really feel good about my posting and reflecting the last few days. I think the biggest breakthrough is realizing how I was able to be drawn into acting in abusive ways. (cliff notes- start with feeling bad a lot because of low self esteem, add a partner you expect is supposed to make you feel better which turns them into a drug you need a fix of, then begin to act controlling to get your fix, get hurt when you don't, let the hurt turn into resentment, and let the resentment take your eyes off your behavior).

THIS IS AWESOME NEWS. Why? Because I feel like I can really change this. For the first time. I feel like given the second go I wouldn't behave the same way. I finally see how I could break this cycle. So I am NOT innately a bad H. Just like I am not innately a bad person. I am feeling so much better about myself. I don't think I'll need anyone to fill a hole for me in the future. And I will be looking out for that, and for all of these patterns. The best part is I have much more time to keep building!

Then I see a very affirming post by 25 (thanks 25!), and now I get to post on some other threads, watch a show, and call it a night. Tomorrow poker with another friend.

Life is amazing and I can't remember the last time I felt so ME. Thank you all. You have really helped me change my life!

Zeus

your post hits on perhaps the single biggest overlooked truth in these ordeals...

the best news a good marriage counselor (or shrink or cleric) can give you when you ask for marital advice, is that

YOU MUST CHANGE....b/c friends, that means you are NOT powerless.

I believe the worst news you could get is that you did everything right and that your partner is simply, totally wrong.

Why is being 'Right" so bad? B/c if you are right and if you hear that ^^ news, you can do nothing. With ^^ news you are powerless. You made no mistakes so there is nothing to rectify. Go get a divorce and learn not a thing...

As Zues Zeus shows us, mistakes are what we need to find so we can DO something new and different and improve and

maybe, become better partners who are far LESS likely to be here again.

Make sense?

Great post Z-Man.

Thank you 25. It's been a good journey and it looks like the road ahead will be interesting as well.

As I've said, there are so many different things we have to grieve and accept. I feel more and more at peace with not having a W, not having a relationship with the mother of my children.

Tonight it's troubling me that I don't see my children more often.

I have them every other weekend and one night a week. That is Tuesday nights. Since this wasn't my weekend I haven't seen them since last Wednesday morning when I dropped them off for school.

On the one hand the time I have with them is very engaged, high quality, and the best parenting I've ever done.

On the other, it feels like I'm going to watch them grow up in a strobe light. Or like in that movie Click, where I'm fast forwarding week long blocks of their lives and just getting glimpses.

It hurts so much, and at times I do have tremendous pain well up and tremendous anger towards the idea that someone can unilaterally make a decision to tear me and my children apart, even for just a portion of the time. That act just seems so criminal, and so destructive, it can overpower me at times. The world can just seem like a broken place where we do these things.

I will admit that I'm crying as I write this. I feel like telling God I know I've screwed up but please don't take my family away. Sometimes when I drop them off I get very depressed for a bit.

I am working with my L to get more time in the summer and maybe another visiting night in the week that I don't have them for the weekend. I am also going to try to extend the weekend to Friday night through Monday morning (currently bringing them back Sunday evening).

But I guess the world is a broken place, and my kids will have to live it too. So I will try to show them that we make it the best place we can, one choice at a time. And we choose to savor everything that is good about it, one moment at a time. I can't wait to see them tomorrow and give them big hugs, and just spend some time with them.

I guess I'm finding out that some things get better with time, other things won't ever quite be the same. Whatever happens I hope they know how much I love them.

Zues, here's something to think about. As your kids get older they will have more activities outside school hours. For instance they might be on a sports team. And you can go to the game and cheer for them and talk to them after even if it's not your day. Are there other things you can think of like that? My H picks up D12 three days a week to take her to school even though only overnights "count" in a custody agreement here. (Ask me how many days a week he ever took the other two to school. Zero. )

Having said that, I'd have your L push for 50%.

Zeus, now you have had this realisation - what do you intend to do to specifically address it. i mean other than keeping an eye out for it re-emerging, being mindful of it. Not that I can think of anything, just wondering if you had.

Pyrite- I assume you mean the realization of how resentment drew me into destructive behavior? Correct me if I'm wrong. Awareness is the answer, but not waiting until my next M, but rather doing better in my current day to day life. Part of it is reducing resentment. Making a point to understand others' points of view. Forgiving people for being imperfect. Recognizing my own flaws so I don't judge too critically. Part of it is holding to my beliefs even when I do have pain in my heart. Realizing that nothing one person does justifies me responding in a way that doesn't match my character.

I've had plenty of opportunities to do this. Just today my STBX emailed me that my son was in an after school band practice so instead of 5:30 he would be out at 5:45. She didn't think it was a big deal because it was "only 15 minutes". Of course it ran late and he wasn't out until almost 6PM. No big deal, right? Except that when I am literally in tears because of how little I see them and that's half an hour out of my 3 hours with them the one night this week they're with me, it is a big deal. Not saying it should've been handled differently, this was best for the children. But I am suffering, it seems to be because of a destructive decision she made, and her comment and casual attitude caused me to feel resentment towards her for the pain I was in. I was aware of that, I let it go, and I responded casually and am not going to carry that rage in my heart anymore. If I did it would only poison the remaining time with my children, and then I'd have only myself to blame. That is a decision I might not have made a year ago.

Rppfl, you're right, it's just so hard. You have to understand, a year ago I didn't have to fight for time with my kids. They were just there. I could go into the living room and play with them. I could tuck them in every night. Their accessibility was just so much different. Now they're not around. I feel like I have to fight for time to have them available. Not just fighting my STBX, but fighting my schedule. To this point I still have a full time job. I don't even know if I could handle 50% time. And a year ago I was like a 5% dad, so I am stretching already in terms of getting more aggressive and getting out of my comfort zone. I'm afraid I won't be able to maintain my responsibilities. Kind of like when I was 18 and got my first full time job I was worried about having to show up every day, and how hard it would be to do that my entire life.

Also, I agreed in writing with my STBX to accept every other weekend and a night a week. Now I'm rethinking that. I already know I want 50% during the summer, and a little more time during the week. I haven't served her the parenting agreement yet. But now I'm wondering if I should go for 50% altogether. She might fight me on it, and I don't even know if I can do it. I really need to ask my L if I get like 35/50% (35 school year, 50 summer) if I can revisit it in a year or two if my situation changes.

I'm just overwhelmed by the legal system, frustrated with my L for a few reasons I won't get into, and frustrated that for me to work full time and see my kids 50% is now so much harder than it used to be to work full time and LIVE with them. I will rise to the challenge because I can't afford to fail. It's just fatiguing and sad. And fatigue and sad mixed together at times can feel a lot like depression, especially when it is a CONSTANT reality.

That all said, I had a great night with them tonight, and they are with me ALL WEEKEND! HOORAY! Kid time baby!

This should have been a second post, but I have some other "questions of the day".

1: Most of us on the forum talk about "knowing what they'll want in their next M" or "Being ok on their own". What I want to know is IF YOUR NEXT M TURNS OUT TO BE AS BAD AS YOUR LAST, WOULD YOU STAY IN IT FOR LIFE? WHY? DO YOU THINK YOU'LL BE ABLE TO REMAIN LOVING TO YOUR S IF THINGS REMAIN BAD FOR THE DURATION?

2: HOW DO YOU THINK YOU'LL BE ABLE TO TELL HOW COMMITTED YOUR PARTNER WILL BE TO THE M? CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LIP SERVICE "I'LL BE WITH YOU FOREVER" AND SOMEONE THAT REALLY WILL FOLLOW THROUGH?

I'll share my thoughts later. Thanks for the support all!

Originally Posted By: Zues126

You have to understand, a year ago I didn't have to fight for time with my kids. They were just there. I could go into the living room and play with them. I could tuck them in every night. Their accessibility was just so much different. Now they're not around. I feel like I have to fight for time to have them available. Not just fighting my STBX, but fighting my schedule. To this point I still have a full time job.

Zues, you and pretty much every other LBS on this board. Very few of us aren't splitting time with the WAS. And most of us have full time jobs. I feel you, but join the club.

When H and I were first discussing shared parenting, he asked for one week at mom's, one week at dad's. I said no, there's no way you are taking my kid away from me a week at a time. We have settled on something that works for both of us.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I don't even know if I could handle 50% time. And a year ago I was like a 5% dad, so I am stretching already in terms of getting more aggressive and getting out of my comfort zone. I'm afraid I won't be able to maintain my responsibilities.

Again, you aren't alone here. Ask a bunch of us moms (me, Maybell, Claire for starters) how involved their Hs were before BD. I put my H at a 10% dad, MB would probably assign a lower percentage. My H has stepped up considerably, MB's seems to have slacked off considerably. Which dad are you going to be? Yes, it's hard. Do it anyway, it's about your kids.

Now, having said that, although my H is a better dad now than he ever was before (and I'm really grateful for that), he's not at 50%. He travels constantly, and he just doesn't feel comfortable with that percentage. And that's OK. As I mentioned yesterday, he shows up in other ways that don't count towards the sharing percentage. He makes himself available to our kids, even on "my" time. I applaud him for that.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Also, I agreed in writing with my STBX to accept every other weekend and a night a week. Now I'm rethinking that.

You have to discuss this with your L sooner rather than later. I was told by a L that it's better to ask for what I want now because it's really hard to change later.

I know you are overwhelmed, I was overwhelmed for years upon end, raising three kids almost all by myself, taking care of the house almost all by myself, working full time, trying to be a good wife. If I'd had to worry about finances during that point, I'd probably be crazy right now. Instead, I'm just S. Overwhelmed shifted my life in a not-so-good way. Don't let that happen to you, find a way to pull this together. You ace so many other areas of your life, this is a new challenge. You can do this, Zues.

Also, Zues, one more thing. In your written document, is "weekend" actually defined? Is it spelled out that it's Saturday morning through Sunday evening, for instance? Is there anything open to interpretation?

My H has "every other weekend and a night a week" just like you. I came up with that after he proposed the week/week split. But I chose to define weekend as Friday after school through Monday school dropoff. And his "night a week" is Thursday, so that every other week he actually has 4 nights in a row.

I also offered him another week night (Wednesday)on the weeks that weren't his weekend, to nudge him closer to the 50%. He chose not to, but maybe you could structure it that way?

I'm not trying to tell you how to structure a sharing agreement, just pointing out there are a lot of ways to do it. I'm sure your L has seen them all and can be of use to you in this way.

I had a really anxious few days last week worrying that my W was going to go for full custody. ATM I have 50/50, week/week custody. I had no REAL reason for thinking that. There was zero said.

Even with 50% it still kills me that 3 months ago I had full time access!

If she did claim full custody - she is unlikely to get it. I would still get what you have Zeus. In a few years I could re-apply and go for 6/14 days which is the courts default position for school age kids here. I just don't want to be clawing my way back. She has already taken enough away from me damn it. I would go crazy. BUT in the longer term view, we just can't afford to.

Yes Rppfl, I think I simply step up as much as possible now and make the best of the time I have.

I am shooting for every other weekend (friday through monday dropoff at school), one night a week, and an additional evening dinner on a night during the week I don't have them for the weekend. Then during the summer I am shooting for 50/50 (the exact schedule will "graduate" slightly as kids get older, starting with 5-2-2-5, then 1 week/1 week, and maybe someday 2 week blocks). That's what I'm drafting in my parenting agreement proposal.

And yes, I understand we all have less access to the children. Doesn't mean I think it's right. As I've learned more about other people's sitches I just keep shaking my head wondering why we humans choose to do things this way. I just have to remind myself I'm just another broken soul that contributes my own problems.

I am still reflecting a lot on how I'll look for my next partner. Again, I'm 18+ months out, but in a way thinking about it is a good test to how much baggage I still have to work through. Of course the answer is a lot. I'm still at the point where I just can't picture a woman really committing to a M. Most women divorce their husbands, and those on this board seem adapt "I don't need a man and won't settle ever again" phase which is intimidating to me.

I don't need a woman, but I'd sure like to partner for the count. I want a good woman and a healthy M (and I'm learning what to look for and how to be transparent about that), but I will "settle" for the reality of the person I pair with. I will try to make it a great M, but even if it's terrible I will stay. Because I think if you give yourself the out that it's ok to leave when it's terrible, it isn't going to work. Only when your alternatives are "unhappy M or happy M" do I think people find their way through the challenges.

That's where I'm at today. I feel like I'm searching for a needle in a haystack but I don't live in Utah so I only need to find one wife

And I've got time...

Hey Zues. Sorry to read up on your sitch and see you are where you are. I completely understand the frustration of going from having 100% access to your own children to having them only occasionally. The situation you are potentially seeking sounds very familiar to what they call Schedule "A" visitation here in my state. The visitation parent gets every other weekend, every Wednesday evening (till school the next morning) Summer time is split 50/50, visitation parent gets the first half. You always get the kids part time during their birthdays and your own. Fathers/Mothers day always goes to the respective parent. Holidays like Christmas are split 50/50 with beginning week and last week alternating every year. Spring Break goes to the visitation parent. Try a google search for it if you are looking for a guideline. Also it may help to fly with a judge in your state if it is a program already adopted and widely used by other states.

Best of luck to you!

Happy Easter, Zues!

Thanks rppfl!

Feeling so much lighter the last week or two. I'm sure I'll be tested again but I really feel like I've let go of so much anger. It's hard to notice how angry you are until you let go. Like realizing how tense you are when you finally get a massage or do some yoga. No need to carry all of that around. It only impacted me and my children.

It has been a true blessing and I appreciate that I am free to enjoy my time with my children and the time with my family. Wishing you all the best!!!

Zues, I struggle with the same thoughts about "the next time". Sometimes I look at H and think "who is this person", he is not the person I married. While we were dating, H and I talked about our values, our beliefs, our views on marriage and the importance of marriage vows. The H I thought I knew believed in commitment and believed in working on issues. He was disgusted when his brother-in-law cheated on his sister. Over the two years that we dated before getting married, I thought I knew who he was.

But this H is someone totally different, someone who believes that when the going gets tough the tough get going. Someone who thinks that vows can just be broken because he decided he wants something different. And I wonder if he's changed, or if he was just telling me what he thought I wanted to hear and was never the person I thought he was. And I wonder, do we really ever know someone? How do we know that what they say is what they really believe?

I feel like if my marriage doesn't work out and I have to move on, how will I be able to trust the next person? Trust that they believe in "for better or worse" as much as I do? That they won't just walk away when the going gets tough.

Sorry I don't have any good advice, just wanted to say I know how you feel.

That's it Nole. Pretty scary. It's not good to be controlling. It's not good to be needy. But when you want a successful M and you depend on someone else it's scary. Especially when most people just aren't going to do what it takes these days.

One thing that's positive about this is that it forces our personal growth. That's our only chance! I used to lament the fact that divorce wasn't as common so many years ago, and even if marriages stayed together for economics and social reasons at least they stayed together! I'm not sure about the quality of those M's though.

These days marriages fall apart too often. Yet for people that want a M to last it forces them to really execute.

I have a friend in a pretty good M that was previously divorced. He told me that in his first marriage he told himself "divorce wasn't an option". His wife left him. Now he tells himself daily that "divorce IS an option". Not for him, but he knows that he will never be sure what his wife's breaking point is. This forces him to be mindful and put a lot of care into his marriage.

So one reason I am afraid of people's "lack of commitment" these days is that I'm not confident in my ability to be a good H. I will confess that between reading all of these WAS stories and then hearing the resentment from all the LBS's talking about how they'll never make the mistake to settle in an R again, I don't even know who's left. I believe I'll be a good H, but I feel like if I sneeze funny I'll be evicted again and the subject of the next woman's shelter meeting. It's even harder when you layer on kids from both sides, ex's, and a pool to choose from that is statistically less likely to make it. Oh, and I've always believed in putting the M first and the kids right behind as the best thing for them is a happy home. But with a second M I see the women saying "so you know, my kids will always come first". I feel like it's inevitable that I'll be purged at some point.

But maybe if I can do my diligence on the front end AND be a better H on the back end I have a good shot.

That all said, I think the reality is that there is a really good chance our next M won't work. Them's the facts. Hey, in the middle ages there was a good chance that you'd die at 35 from pestilence or whatever. As a slave in the 1700s there was a good chance you'd be torn from your family and worked to exhaustion in the fields. And in the Roman days there was a chance you'd be lion food.

The reality is that life stinks sometimes. We've come a long way from the Romans, but this is far from utopia. I think the reality of our world is that people will be selfish, entitled, and superficial, thinking their willingness to walk away from marriages is because they are "empowered". As much as I want my story to have a "happily ever after" ending there's a good chance it won't work that way, and there's nothing I can do to change that because I can't control everything.

What I can do is control what I can to the best of my ability, and appreciate whatever comes my way. Even if my next woman leaves me too I'll probably have a few good years in there, and I'll have some good times with my kids. Eventually we'll all be gone so I'll do what everyone does and just do my best.

Sorry if that seems dark. I just feel like promising myself this won't happen again is delusional. I want to prepare for the worst and strive for the best.

Moment of panic.

Just got a financial proposal from STBX's lawyer. I was working on drafting one with my L but she beat me to the punch.

It is absolutely shocking. It basically suggests that I should pay 12 years of spousal maintenance on top of child support. The numbers are astounding, approximately 100% of my net income for the first 3 years.

My L said "This is excessive given the circumstances. A total of 5 years of decreasing maintenance would be more in line with what the courts would do. I think we need to get everyone back to reality which is that STBX cannot stay unemployed for 12 years, longer than you two were married".

Why is this such a shock? I don't know. It's just seemed like an act of hostility that she'd even suggest that I sign something that would amount to giving up my entire income. I'm sad that we're in this place, and that despite her talk of working things out reasonably she subscribes to the belief of asking for the moon and fighting for everything she can possibly get. I guess I'm not surprised by it, it just hurts.

And it's scary because I've never been through this before and I don't know that I'll be ok. I hear horror stories about what the courts do to men. I honestly work my tail off and make good money. I want to do what's right and support my children and allow her the opportunity to get back into the work force without undue financial strain. I understand that she was raising our children while I was advancing my career. But despite the fact that I am very, very successful at what I do, I am fearful of not being able to support myself. I've even afraid of going to jail because I can't keep up with the payments they're talking about. Shoot, I'm in sales and I've been through hard times. 2007-2010 was very hard. If that happened again I don't know what I'd do.

I had just worked through my resentment and had achieved a near forgiveness state. This is a real test. I'm really trying not to be judgmental, I just don't know what type of a person would try to financially destroy someone after they dumped them. I am trying to assume she knows this won't come to pass and that she's afraid too and operating under guidance from an old school lawyer. Doesn't matter either way. It's my heart I can control, and I need to work through this.

Thanks for posting an update Zeus. This is Something that I fear happening to too many men who are afraid to rock the boat back. One more reason to detach, right. I hope your lawyer will fight for your rights as a father too. Keep up letting us know what is going on.

Zues, I know it is tough to read these things from the lawyers but remember, they are from the lawyers. They are going to ask for things they know they have no chance in hell of getting. Its the lawyers job. Nothing personal. I got the same thing when my W filed almost a year ago. It was ridiculous. It hurt and I cried like a hurt puppy at first. But looking back I would have been disappointed in her L if he/she did not start off that way.

Darn, that's scary. I have such a hard time understanding that I could be asked to pay her after being dumped and cheated on, especially as I supported her career development in many ways and that her parents are well off and she'll get a generous inheritance. The injustice of it all gets to me. Anyway, you seem more accepting of the principle and, like pilot, I believe this is just the opening bid, with the input of lawyers. Good luck.

OK, I'm calming down. Being afraid of going to jail is just extremest thinking. That's just not rational. Nor are fears of being homeless or destitute.

Reality is this is the beginning of a negotiation. I'm sure we'll arrive at something that allows me to put food on the table. And yes, this is just part of the process, nothing more personal than that.

Thanks for talking me through it. I will admit that my chest was very tight last night and I was extremely anxious. But I realize there will always be a road in front of me I can walk, and while it won't always be easy, if I continue to make the right choices for me and my family I'll be ok. I honestly have nothing to complain about.

And yes Mozza...I've heard it said that what courts do to men is as close as most men will ever feel to being raped. Those are strong words but I think we understand. The idea that we can be rejected from someone's life but the women that cast us aside can still take the financial support they came to expect is very difficult. It really doesn't feel fair. I think it was Chris Rock that joked how men don't get a court order saying the can stop by the old house 2-3 times a week with a court order saying they get a quickie. But they have to keep supporting the ex, even when she makes the decision to leave and replace him.

Not easy to accept, but I can't change it, and I look at what would happen without these courts. I wouldn't want my STBX to be forced to stay in an abusive relationship and destroy herself for the sake of the kids. That wouldn't help her or the kids. The support is all about the kids. Directly, and indirectly because they need their mother to be ok. And those are things that match my underlying beliefs. None of it is the way I want it, but that's just the D, there's no way to make it pretty. Like there's no way to arrange a parenting schedule that doesn't seem broken compared to two loving parents living with their kids. It's not pretty, it's just making the best of a terrible situation.

Thanks for the support and wishing you all the best in DB Land!

Guys, I hear your point about having to support a WAW. Here's my way of looking at it. I have been M 25 years, almost my entire adult working life. Before we had kids I had a great job with plenty of advancement opportunities. I was totally rocking it. But for the past 17 years I chose a job based on location and flexibility. I gave up money and career path for availability to my family. Now here we are all these years later and H and I are parting ways. At this point, it doesn't matter if I walked or he did, I can't get those years back. He owes me financially for giving that up. What wouldn't be fair is if I sacrificed for my family and then didn't have some sort of compensation for it later. Even if I did the leaving.

I'm not saying that's the case with either of your Ws, I'm just offering a different way to look at it.

By the way, I didn't mean that W should get all your income, just that you shouldn't begrudge a fair share. After all, if I take the whole thing, what's his motivation to keep working?

In my case my WAW didn't want to work. She really wanted children and the opportunity to be a SAHM. She said it was her lifelong dream, at least until they were all 5. So I worked very, very hard to pay for 100% of the finances and allow this to her.

Now when the youngest is conveniently 4 years old I am ejected. So do I "owe her financially" for working hard to give her the dream she wanted? I wouldn't owe her as much had I told her to get bent, she had to pull her weight, and insisted that she remain employed?

I just wonder if the courts thrashing of men financially wasn't the real reason more woman filed than men. And I wonder if they were a little more case specific, for example not being as favorable to a woman walked out on a non-abusive relationship, cheated, refused to get a job, and spent her days surfing government help programs and trying to justify why she was entitled to my money...well, maybe if the courts weren't as supportive D's would be less common. Hey, staying together for money sounds bad, but if it forces people to work through their issues or even stick it out it's not a bad thing in my mind.

Thankfully I'm not tweaked about it. It's a big deal, but I feel like I have accepted this as much as the D. The courts are what they are. Things work the way they do. I'd rather have it the way it is than nothing for anyone after a marriage. And I don't have a place in my heart for negative energy about it. Women will do what they want to do. Some of it is appropriate. Some of it isn't. Same can be said for men. I'll just work on my part of it and trust that I'll be ok.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

So do I "owe her financially" for working hard to give her the dream she wanted?

Yep. For a little while anyway, a couple years until she gets her own income stream going. Because being a SAHM was for the whole family, not just her. The dream wasn't to hike to Appalachian Trail alone while you hired a nanny, it was to focus her attention on your children. Having said that, I hope your Ls workout something that feels equitable to you, you are a good guy, Zues. And I admire your ability to acknowledge your feelings here and then not dwell on them. So I won't either.

Btw I don't think you'll find very many D women who share your opinion that courts favor women. Statistics say otherwise. And to equate a court ruling to rape, well, for me you've gone too far. I can't be the only one. I just wanted to mention that because I went back and re-read that a few times hoping I would stop flinching but it never happened. I don't think you intended that reaction.

Thanks Rppfl. We're two different people so we're going to wrestle different feelings, but I appreciate your validation and respect.

I agree some support is appropriate. And yes, she did raise our children for many years, and will CONTINUE to. So she could also say "My H is so miserable I have to leave to protect myself, yet I owe him raising his kids the next 12 years and struggling financially?" I recognize what she has sacrificed, voluntarily or not, and appreciate what she's done and continues to do for our family. For these reasons I'm able to be totally fine with a reasonable settlement. Not just because I don't have a choice, but because it's appropriate (as long as it's appropriate).

As for the rape comment, I think I said "it's the closest thing that most men will experience". I read that comment somewhere once and really identified with it. I truly apologize for my insensitivity to those that have experienced and suffered trauma as the result of sexual violence.

Let me simply say I can understand why some men feel extremely violated. And, if so, it's not a one time violation, it continues for many years with nothing they can do about it. In their minds they just have to watch as their ex spews venom, drags them back to court to reevaluate every time they get a $.50 raise, and takes them for every penny they can while the courts just treat the men like a piece of furniture.

But again, that's just how it can feel when looked at from the wrong angle. I don't feel like subscribing to a "victim" mindset, nor one that clings to resentment or projects malice into someone else's behavior. There are many injustices in the world, and you're right that women face even more financial adversity after a D. I really feel for those who have depended on an H financially based on his desires, only to have them walk away and try to avoid their obligations or promises. Divorce just stinks all around, but I guess that's why we're all here.

Oh, it's a joke anyway. In a few years I'll probably end up with a woman that has children receiving money from her ex as well. Then we'll all just swap partners and pass support payments all around...:)

Originally Posted By: Zues126

And yes Mozza...I've heard it said that what courts do to men is as close as most men will ever feel to being raped. Those are strong words but I think we understand.

Zues,

Having been raped, I can assure you that anything that happens to you (or any other individual) in the court of law is really not the same, or "as close." Poor analogy and an insensitive one at that.

And, men can be actually, physically raped as well. So, the closest thing a man can experience to being raped is, well, being raped.

Originally Posted By: claire7

And, men can be actually, physically raped as well. So, the closest thing a man can experience to being raped is, well, being raped.

Yep.

I'll expand a little bit on my situation.

My reaction is one of disbelief, not anger (not yet). I don't understand how I could be so vulnerable to someone. WW could make the unilateral decision to leave me, take away half my kids and grandkids. She did not have to discuss it with me. She promised "until death do us apart", yet she could leave for someone else she met a month earlier. And now I might have to pay her? I feel like I'm missing something, that there is something about life that I haven't understood yet. How can this even be possible?

Do I owe her because she sacrificed for our family? She worked since we were together, she was not a SAHM. I have been very supportive of her career. It was a high point of our relationship, in that I advised her, helped her with her resume and interview prep, salary negotiations, etc. I'm older than her and, honestly, I work harder. I've regularly been ranked in the top 10% of my colleagues in a competitive work place. On the other hand, she once been fired for what amounts to laziness (she wasn't always lazy though). I come from a lower middle class background and have made my way with scholarships and hard work. Her parents paid for everything until she was 25 years old. She never had any debt and I paid mine with my income.

Yet, I did not sacrifice my family to my job and stopped all systematic overtime when D7 was born. I've shared 50% of the parenting tasks, so it's not like she sacrificed on behalf of the family, except for the total 9 months of maternity leave. I even took more sick leave (for the kids) because mine was paid and not hers. I paid more than half our expenses, I paid for the two births alone, I paid for her maternity leave alone (hers was unpaid). All the while, her parents are well off (I'm talking about 7 figures), give her thousands of dollars every year and prepare a generous inheritance. Mine are more likely to need financial support in their old age.

I'm trying to come to terms with the idea that I can still nevertheless be dumped without having a say or a chance. And now facing the possibility that I might have to pay her is something new and puzzling. Add to this that she quickly moved in with OM, splitting the home expenses in two, while leaving me in the expensive apartment alone, overnight.

All in all, it feels like getting hit by a baseball bat and then charged for the dent in the bat. I don't understand why I deserve so much punishment, nor why life or society is organized to even make this a possibility.

Anyway, this is just to explain a little bit how, as a man maybe, I can see the situation.

Mozza

I know. I hear you. I feel the same way. We played by the rules, did everything we thought to make our marriages work, planned for the future, cared for our wives and families both physically and financially and then POOF, it vanishes because our partners unilaterially decided to blow it up.

It's unbelievable when you think about it.

Do you remember the story of Job in the Bible and all that he suffered and endured? Just remember how it turned out for him in the end.

Obviously everyone's situation is different. And everyone has different perspectives.

Perhaps you could reframe it? Yes, you have to pay for child support, but at least you both are stand up gentleman who appear to at least want to provide for your children's well-being and needs.

My father had an affair. When my mom stated she wasn't going to live in an open marriage and unhappy, he dropped us like a sack of potatoes. Refused to pay child support for multiple reasons but basically because he felt that since he was done with my mother, and the marriage, that all obligations ended. Including assisting with raising the child he was "so excited to have" - until I was actually born and he realized that life isn't all rainbows and butterflies and happy endings. As such, he paid not a damn cent to making sure I had things like braces, extra-curricular activities, etc. All things he got to enjoy as a child.

Situations suck for everyone. Not just the men. I could get saddled with half of the debt that my H racked up in secret, because he didn't want to admit that he sucked at finances. It's all in his name, but because I'm married to him -- I'm legally obligated to pay towards it. Same goes for him. How is that fair for either one of us? That's where lawyers make the $$$, I suppose.

Obviously -- it's a touchy subject, and there's no right or wrong answer -- just like everyone has their own perspective that goes with their situation, background, etc.

I certainly don't want to make any blanket statement regarding men and women. I have very little information on this. I'm just sharing my own perspective and how it is difficult for me to understand what is happening. Of course, I will do the right thing, as I have done all my life and as I've done since BD.

Originally Posted By: Calibri

Perhaps you could reframe it? Yes, you have to pay for child support, but at least you both are stand up gentleman who appear to at least want to provide for your children's well-being and needs.

In the S speech, my WW told me she felt comfortable leaving me because I'm a good, involved father, so the kids will be in good hands. FIL repeated the same thing last week. WW also said that I had been very helpful to her and that she was very grateful for it, but wanted to take the next steps without me, leaving even my positive influence. She also said of my friends and family who welcomed her with open arms (remember that her parents rejected me) that she wanted to tell them, and I quote: "Thanks. It's been fun." I feel punished for being good, or at least I feel that being good is making it easier or more likely to punish me. It's so confusing.

As a Nice Guy, I expect that if I'm generous and kind and good and nice, the universe will pay me in return. It leads to a lot of frustration when it doesn't happen. You can imagine how hard it is to understand the consequences of D for someone like this. I don't stand there fuming; I stand there in shock, with my mouth half open.

HeavyD - Good reference about Job. We're certainly being tested now!

Thank you all for accepting my apology and allowing the conversation to continue.

Mozza, your post sums up why this is such a fiery topic. Our situations differ but the theme is similar.

I was trying to express that many women underestimate exactly how this can feel to men. So for women who are or will be receiving payments to minimize this (even unintentionally) and talk of 'reframing' or other ways to look at it, I don't know how else I can explain this other than some of us feel incredibly differently and you'll have to take our word for it. I used a poor choice of words yet seem unable to communicate how seriously violating this can feel.

Calibri, we're totally fine. I'm a fan, and I appreciate your being here. Just good conversation. And trust me, I agree with your main point. I'm not going to let it eat away at me or wreck my life. But I am definitely validating me feelings about it because they are very, very real.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I was trying to express that many women underestimate exactly how this can feel to men. So for women who are or will be receiving payments to minimize this (even unintentionally) and talk of 'reframing' or other ways to look at it, I don't know how else I can explain this other than some of us feel incredibly differently and you'll have to take our word for it. I used a poor choice of words yet seem unable to communicate how seriously violating this can feel.

Zues- FWIW- I think the issue amongst us ladies is not so much that women tend to "underestimate" how this feels to a man but more so that you seem to be claiming this as an exclusively male experience (and I'm just basing this off of your posts).

You might want to consider your audience. The women here are all LBS. I assure you that it is just as mind boggling to me that my STBX can cheat, move out with OW and have an expectation of 50/50 custody (which is the standard in my state). And yes - I technically would have had to pay him alimony after he turned down promotions for years because he didn't want added responsibilities (I'll give him credit - he turned it down). I don't think many of us have found the courts biased against men. Rather they tend to favor the primary caregiver (which is still the Mother in many cases).

Due to the constraints of his job, our custody split is 80/20 (and by the way - I'm pretty angry that he can just unilaterally make a decision that takes away that large chunk of my kid's childhoods) and yes, he pays me child support. It was calculated by a decidedly non-biased state formula and I can assure you it is nowhere near what he contributed to household expenses previously (and that's with him voluntarily throwing in a little extra for childcare). If I am going to keep my kids in the manner of life to which they are accustomed - it's primarily up to me. 90% of my net income goes to maintaining a household for my kids. That's hardly the case for STBX.

So- yes, all of our situations are different, but all of us, men and women, can feel "seriously violated" by all of this.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes

Rppfl, Calibri, GeorgiaBell, Raliced...thank you for your patience with me today. You're absolutely right that it's not a "male" issue with the courts. When third parties get involved with dictating the lay of the land for finances, time with children, etc, everyone gets trodden down a bit. I appreciate the feedback because I will admit I'd never really seen the other side of it. And I don't stand by every comment I made as it was some emotional spewing as well, so thanks for not taking it too pointedly either. You ladies on this forum are my inspiration.

The good news is that however abrasive and cold the court systems feel, this is the United States. No one is going to starve to death. No one is going to die from lack of medical attention or clean water. (Please don't cite the exception, I've put my foot in my mouth enough times today, if I'm wrong and this has happened to you or a loved one I'm sorry, just making a point).

This is what I told myself when I used to do loans for people. If they got denied and were facing foreclosures or reposessions it was really hard for me. But I reminded myself that no matter what happened their family would survive. They might have to switch school districts, lose contact with some neighbors, or get rid of the family dog. But they'd be OK. Same goes for me and my family now. It's a blessing to be in this country, and for me to fret about not being as well off as I had hoped is pretty ungrateful.

Thank you all and God bless DB forums, you are all very gracious.

Quote:

The good news is that however abrasive and cold the court systems feel, this is the United States. No one is going to starve to death. No one is going to die from lack of medical attention or clean water.

You're kidding, right????

No, Maybell, I'm not. By and large starvation and deprivation of basic needs is not a day to day threat that any of us face. I would think you're kidding if you feel that we don't have things extremely well compared to 99% of the population or any other time period in history. This perspective has helped remain appreciative of how much we've been given and how manageable most of my problems are.

To bookend some of this conversation, some of the best advice I've gotten was from a pastor I talked to in reference to 'trying to stick to M' when WW obviously does not or does not want to.

He said "MCS, our time on earth is short and we shouldn't get hung up on the trials and tribulations of sitches and people in this life, but refer to the Bible on what will ensure us happiness in eternal life"

Well, that was a paraphrase, but you get the point. "Do what we know is right, even though the reward for it may never reach us while we are alive."

Also, I agree with you Zues. A day does not go by that I don't see little blessings and appreciate where I am and how fortunate I am, regardless of the sitch I'm in.

Very sorry to hear Zeus. I have had these moments of panic. One in the middle of the night. In my sleep I suddenly realised that pre-empting her next move, or what she was thinking was impossible, because nothing she was doing or saying was anything like the W I knew.

As you say yourself, you won't be left to starve. I dont know about the law there but situations change with the childrens age here. For school age kids 6/8 split per fortnight is the courts default position. Generally a case needs to be presented why this shouldn't be the case. This changes alimony/CS payments again. I have a friend on the other side of this now - her case is that her H is a self-harming deadbeat, and only doing this to reduce payments, not because he so desperatelty wants his kids. I believe her, but she is having a hard time PROVING it to the court. SO the system screws up in reverse too. The best way to deal with it, or the only way, as far as I can see is just avoid the system. Which is what I am desperately trying to do ATM.

My W doesn't plan so far ahead, but already I'm caving on re-location to preserve 50/50 custody of my kids. hopefully things will solidify before she realises that she can just flat out refuse, re-locate wherever she likes, screw 50/50 custody and petition for full custody. If this happens I am going to be clawing my way back and likely fail even then. Sorry ladies but (here at least) it is a FACT that the court favours the woman. Again, if she files for full custody, given kids are pre-school age, the court defaults to every 2nd weekend, and maybe weeknight visitation. The onus is on me to PROVE why there should be any amendment to this.

BUT, as I said earlier, a few years, school age kids, t things can swing back again. IF we can work something out between us and agree outside before getting into the court system, they dont care how unorthodox the arrangement might be. Basically the same on property issues.

You might even soon be rooting for her to live with OM so you are off the hook. Bonus for me is, knowing a little about the OM, her great new life is almost destined for failure beyond that. Although, back to alimony I guess if that happens. I like your idea of all swapping payments

like obligatory birthday gifts.

Hi Zues, I have been following you around the boards recently, being attracted to you sense of self and clarity about where you have been and where you are going. I read back on your sitch, and well your account of self and things you are overcoming, well it feels like you are me and my ex combined. I realise from your words that my ex and I were mirroring back to each other our soul issues. Our need for love between us but also self acceptance and self love

Your description of your focus and determination and drive, were that of my ex, and i was attracted to those very qualities, and I loved him and supported him and stood cheering him on from the sidelines while he became more and more successful. He lost his respect for me, and eventually his love of me because I don't have that same drive to be competitive. I have that same drive to love and support, not to be out there in front.

I am not expressing myself well. I guess I just wanted to say thank you for sharing what you do, I have gained so much insight into my own sitch.

Hugs Jellybaby

MCS, thanks for the comments. I am a big believer in Karma, I have a theory on how it actually works that I'm pretty proud of. I made it up but it feels very, very true to me and is my compass. Maybe I'll share it when it's not past midnight with early morning appointments

Py, I like you have put my foot in my mouth a few times. But I agree that families in courts is a brutal process for all parties. That said, I am seeing it will work out. I got some stuff from my lawyer that lifted a big weight off my back. It was the parenting agreement that we are going to send to STBX's L. It's not signed off on, but it made me remember that I have rights and a voice too. It will work out.

Hi Jelly. Thanks for introducing yourself. I will admit I haven't read your posts yet but will after I get done talking about myself...so in the next few weeks

OK, ok, after this reply. But I'm glad some of the lessons I've learned can help you on your way.

What you said about being supportive got me thinking...my W really wasn't. THIS IS NOT AN EX BASH- there's another point I'm trying to make. I grew frustrated because I expected her to be (again, to make up for my insecurity). I looked at women that cheered on their H, etc, and I wanted that so much. Shoot, I am a borderline celebrity in a few facets of my life and the rest of the world is applauding. I just wanted that from my W.

But there were two problems. One is she might not have felt like it based on the way I treated her. And second, it might just not be who she is.

I wonder how much it really matters. If I were looking for my next partner it would be easy to think "I want to find someone that's more supportive next time around". To an extent this makes sense, I'm learning what I want, and a woman that is supportive and admires/appreciates me (and expresses that affectionately) is at the center. HOWEVER- is that REALLY what I want, or is that just a reflection that I have more growth to do? Maybe that just shows I am not healthy enough to be ok without a cheering section. So is my goal to get to the point where I could be with a woman that doesn't do anything for me?

It's still a little confusing for me to figure out that balance between looking for a woman that's a match for my needs/wants, that I can in turn match hers...vs. being mature enough to find contentment with the reality of the imperfect creature I pair up with and appreciate the loyalty that's reciprocated despite my imperfections as well.

Now maybe it's me not expressing myself well. But thanks for following me and for the encouraging words!

Sorry Zues, can't help you out on that one, both my exes who were competitive cyclists, loved the support but in the end they couldn't understand why I put all my energy into supporting them to make their dreams come true instead of my own. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

What a does mutually supportive and loving relationship look like and feel like in these circumstances when one person is ultra driven and the other happy to come for the ride?

The little I do know is I am attracted to men who are confident mentally tough and self determined and self disciplined. And with being attracted to these men there needs to be an understanding that the men who have these qualities have mastered to a certain degree an ability to banish/manage/suppress emotion in order to be successful and competitive, put the Y chromosome on top and well, there is a high degree of emotional unavailability and at times lack of empathy.

I feel that if I was more in control of my own emotions and had higher self esteem I may have managed this . Do exceptionally driven and competitive men view emotional availability as weakness. IMO they do. My overly emotional soul must scare the living daylight out of them or am I potentially viewed as weak. Hmmmmmm????

Also is my desire to fix myself and my emotions just another mechinism to care take for these men, who want and love support appreciate and adulation?

Am I creating/supporting their emotional unavailabity? Have I become their mother. Colour me confused!!!!!!

Sorry too much of my own stuff!

And I refer to my exes as "these men" not to be offensive rather to describe. No intention of male bashing here. I love men!!!!

Mozza asked why I feel so strongly about never getting divorced, or staying in a committed relationship forever. I didn't want to hijack so I'll post my thoughts here.

First, I am totally with you on how hard it is to explain, and how often we deceive ourselves. I just watched a "Brain Games" on Netflix (with my kids who loved it, family time!). There was a show on how we made decisions, and they had some funny experiments. They asked guys which of two women they found more attractive (in this case a blonde and a brunette). Then when they guy picked, they showed the picture again a minute later and asked what they found so attractive. THE ONLY THING IS THEY SWITCHED PICTURES AND SHOWED THE GUYS THE ONE THEY DIDN'T PICK! Yet the men didn't notice and went on and on about why they picked that girl. Just shows we aren't as aware of why we do things as we'd like to think. There were other experiments along those lines, but back to the point. I accept that I have strong feelings and don't pretend to know for sure where they come from.

I will speculate. So, if you've followed my thread you'll know that for about 6 years 99.73% of my waking thoughts and energy were on becoming the best pool player in the world. Then, just before I turned 18, I kind of rebelled. One night I went and dropped some LSD with a few friends. I had no idea what I was doing. But it truly changed my life in that I had a true moment of clarity and decided I wasn't put on this planet strictly to shoot balls into pockets. I didn't know what it was about but there was something more going on here.

For the next two years I tried to get to the "center of the onion". I questioned everything. I dropped acid many, many times, at one point for over two months straight. I quit pool, moved to a city I was a stranger, went to college and dropped out, got evicted, and lost touch with everyone I knew. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just frustrated with the limitations of our world in some way. I finally ended up couch surfing for a few months, then ran out of couches and spent a few nights at a homeless shelter. I was totally off the grid, broke, and didn't know what was going on. I finally checked myself into a rehab center and started rebuilding my life.

Sounds like a drug problem, but I've realized I was really just doing what a lot of people do. People that go hiking the Appalachian trail for six months, or that move into the woods for a few years and just become hermits. I was really searching for meaning, for answers, but finally realized being homeless and looking for ways to medicate wasn't it.

But if that wasn't the answer, what was? I was very distressed with what seems to be chaos in our modern society. I think about how carefully our traditions evolved over thousands of years around gender roles, spirituality, communities...then suddenly our technology allows us to become wealthy enough our culture decided that we don't need those traditions, and the hippies come along and start a revolution to tear it all down (much like my personal tearing it all down). The problem was they didn't build anything in it's place. Free love is great, until you realize that I have half brothers and sisters on both sides of my parents, my dad has three ex wives, my mom is divorced twice, and everything is just uprooted. Same way feminism and equality is great, not accepting abuse is great, but suddenly marriages are falling apart in record number and woman are walking out on men because their magazine article suggests that they shouldn't have to live "oppressed". It's like we decided we were too cool to do what works, and now it's not working, but we don't want to give up our "freedom" that allows us to make choices that make us miserable. Meanwhile the "backwards" primitive tribes in the Amazon have no depression because their members are following their traditions and getting exercise, sunlight, healthy food, spiritual dedication, and communal bonding.

So as I wrested with this and tried to rebuild my life I didn't know what to do. What was the meaning in all of this? I was raised Christian. I studied Buddhism. I meditated, journaled, and finally gave up. I don't have answers, but I couldn't wait to live my life until I figured it all out. I realized I couldn't.

So I did what I "thought" a normal person was supposed to do (I was still pretty tripped out, and maybe it's possible I never came down). I got a job. I got an apartment. I tried "imitating" normal people. Months turned into years. I started to believe I was who I was imitating. I started to feel almost normal.

FINALLY- when I got married. When I had kids. THIS was true. THIS was real. THIS was important. The rest of the stuff, the career aspirations, the pool conquest, the medication from the emptiness we deal with...that's human too, but I never knew if I was on the right track. But coupling with a female of our species, bringing life into the world, sharing those experiences and giving love to each other...even when I was lost about everything else I KNEW in my heart there was something profound there. Something that was at the center of who we are. If we aren't here to create life and celebrate that with our mate then I don't know what could have meaning.

Also, as I've said, I do believe that 10% is what happens to us, 90% is what we do with it. I always maintained (even when my M stunk) that my W was given to me by God, and that I wasn't to question it, I was to celebrate and appreciate the gift. And if I was frustrated, that was God's way of telling me I had some learning to do.

Sorry I was so long winded, but essentially I feel like if there's one reason we are here it is to continue the circle of life and celebrate that gift with our partners and children. And although I won't suggest society is lost if it loses sight of this model, for me personally I don't see the whole "you don't need your spouse" propaganda as spiritual progress. Society will be fine, it will evolve as always. And I will be fine, I'll accept the reality I'm living in and appreciate the gifts from God that I have. And I'm not threatened by anyone that has differing feelings. For me, however, I believe there's something profoundly important about the sacredness of M, something that can't be replaced by a procession of flings called 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marriages. I hope to find someone that values that commitment over their emotions or entitlement someday, but no matter what I'll know I walked my road the best I could, flaws and all.

Thanks Mozza.

Well, thanks to you Zues126. I didn't know your background story. I also feel that my sitch has given me a new appreciation for institutions.

I've enjoyed reading your posts as well. I have challenged myself with much of what you've written, and I admire how you're executing your plan even when it's out of your comfort zone.

Update today on the legal front. I went to my L's office and we drew up a counter offer on the financial proposal AND a parenting plan agreement.

I'm really excited. So my youngest starts kindergarten in 17 months. Basically my proposal is to do 6/14 nights with the kids with the intention of becoming 50/50 by next summer. On the financial front the proposal would provide her enough to not have to go to work until the youngest was in kindergarten (so it would be VERY high for 18 months), but then it would drop down to a reasonable level for another 18 months, then a small amount for 18 months, and finally just the child support. This is designed to avoid daycare expenses which aren't good for anyone and give her time to get back on her feet, while not being a free ride forever.

Honestly the amount is still staggering. It would represent about 60% of my income for the next 18 months. And it still seems odd that she'll be staying home without a job living in huge 3 bedroom house, while I'll be working 55+ hours a week in a high paying job living in a 2 bedroom apartment with my 3 kids sharing a bedroom...but I do recognize that she is raising the children. I'm not upset about it. It's just mind blowing to me. That's ok. This is the world I live in, I'll sleep at night knowing I did my part.

What I'm pumped about is that I will be getting 50% custody. My L told me that in MN I would have to "be an axe murderer" for me not to get joint parenting. So that's really cool to know that I can't be pushed around there.

As for emotions...I'm doing good. Of course it is a huge loss. There would be SO many benefits to us working it out. But I understand that she's closed off to that at this time. Note- I say benefits, it's not about feelings for me. I don't have many for her at this time, and I can understand how she'd conclude we can't be M together because it's hard to visualize us as an effective couple. I just happen to believe that anything is possible, and feelings follow action. But I'm at the point where I'm like "hey, no skin off my back." I'll sleep at night knowing I did everything I could every step of the way, even when I didn't feel like it.

The biggest loss I feel is for my children. I'm sad that my 4 year old won't know what it's like to grow up with a "normal" childhood. I feel it was stolen from my kids and I couldn't defend them. But life isn't fair, and all I can do is show them how to lead on when it doesn't go the way you want.

So now I just need to kick butt at work. Seriously. From a financial standpoint I need to crush it so I can pay these bills. I make good money, the support I'll be paying is more than many people make. And it will be very, very hard. So I MUST kill it. And in a sales position that's stressful, particularly because I just started this role 6 months ago and am a year out from really knowing what I'm doing. So I'm working a TON. I'm already stressed about May goals and it's still a week from being May 1. But that's how much pressure is on me. Plus, it's such a big part of my life I need it to go well. And on top of that I will be committing more and more time to my kids. All while dealing with the D. And learning to pick up slack in the areas of my life that used to be W's turf. So VERY stressful.

But I got this. Honestly I am stressed but I will win. I'm a god damn animal. Roar! It's very possible that my income will double over the next couple of years, and maybe quadruple in the next 3-5. I have a good position and I'm just a juggernaut. So I will just have to do whatever it takes to become the top dog and make it rain money. It will take a lot out of me over the next 12-24 months...but if it's a game of determination, stamina, and desire...NO ONE will beat me.

OK, I'm calming myself down. Deep breathe. I guess I'm competitive

Just some thoughts about my pending D and what I need to do over the next little chapter of my life to get where I want to be: 50% custody and a great R with my kids, soaring at my job with an income so high the courts can't find a way to take it all away from me, maybe a bigger place in a year when my kids need their own space, a finalized D, and me relearning some habits so I'm effective on my own. Boom. Each day is a step on that road, and I'm not waiting until I get there to enjoy it.

Goodnight all!

Zeus, I'm curious about how you will parent your children 50% of the time while working 55 hours/week? Do you have back up child care?

No, I do not.

Quite simply, it will be very, very difficult. That is why I am getting so fired up.

I have a job where I can work from home a little of the time, so I can put in 10 of those hours after the kids are asleep, or on the nights I don't have them.

Some of my days with them will be weekends.

Some of the weekdays I have them I can potentially pick them up from school and quit for the day, or work a bit from home.

I may need to hire a babysitter some of the time, get some help from my parents on occasion.

I don't have it all figured out yet. I just had to decide what I was going to ask for. 4 days, 6, or 7 every two weeks. I decided I needed to ask for what I wanted, I'll find a way to cover the check later.

Another reason I need to crush it at work. I may need some hired help. Failing just isn't an option, I have to bust open a money pinata!

Zues, if you both have 50% parenting, then why is it you have to work 55 hours a week and she works zero? You know I'm in favor of being a SAHM, I'm in favor of alimony (within reason) but it doesn't seem like working a few hours a week would be a hardship on W if she only has the kids half the time. Are you accepting this just to prove you can do it? I know you love a good challenge. Is this what your L recommended?

I would have the kids 6/14 through the next school year, the we'd get to 50/50 around next summer. The youngest starts kindergarten after summer 16.

My STBX's L proposed that I support her entirely for a number of years. My L suggested we counter offer at 18 months. Then it will decrease.

From a financial sense it avoids child care costs. If I proposed a smaller offer up front and she got a job, she'd be incurring child care costs, then I'd end up paying more anyway.

From a strategic sense she said if I accepted the amount they offered at least for a short term, she might find it easier to accept because she'd know she'd be ok for a while.

As for her, things will be very tight on just what I provide, and you're right, she should have enough time to work a bit. But I believe she's not going to because she's afraid it would only decrease the support amount. Instead I know she'll be attacking government assistance programs aggressively.

All of this was strongly recommended by my L. The cool part is that my L gave me the courage to strive for 50/50. I had been prepared to accept much less time than that not too long ago. But to know that my rights with children is valued as much as hers was really uplifting. So while it will be tough, I wasn't prepared to accept less time together with my family than was right.

That seems well thought out and L's have seen a lot of variations so I'd tend to agree with him/her. Glad you are going for 50%, it's very common here, at least among my friend set.

Go with L and your own desires on this.

Zues clearly your kids mean so much to you. Your kids are for life, an S and two D, that is a fantastic dad.

V

First off, I want to thank all of the posters that have supported me and helped me on my journey. Equally I appreciate the positive comments for those that have said kind things about the progress I've made and that some of my words have been helpful to others.

I need to make it clear to any newbies reading my posts that I am not a vet, nor am I a finished product. The road to self improvement is truly a difficult one. Maybe some people lived fairly normal lives, but mine has been very twisted for a very long time, and it's not so easy to turn things around. So I want to address where I am, and where I need to continue to make changes.

The positive changes I've made. Hm. I think I've learned an awful lot about my past behavior, where it came from. I think I've learned to take care of myself, and reduced the expectations that my partner would do that for me. I have learned to be accountable for my own actions. I have learned to be more forgiving and less judgmental because I recognize that others have different views and are dealing with their own flaws and reactions to the pain they're in as well. I have SLOWED way down, and am not using hyper activity to avoid my feelings. I am addressing them head on. And I also have been avoiding pornography (with some serious setbacks).

Where I need to continue to grow. I would say I'm very conflicted, and I desire to alleviate that confliction.

On the one hand I truly want to heal, and want a healthy relationship with my future partner. I want to have a healthy sexual relationship. I want to truly overcome my desire for porn (vs. just abstaining).

On the other hand I sometimes doubt that's possible. So part of me still craves getting what I want. A woman that would be accepting of a pornography habit, and that would be very indulgent to my sexual desires and fantasies. Someone that would accept not only me, but the flaws that are inherent in me as well. When I'm feeling this way I find myself thinking things like "there are couples that are able to use porn together and still be functional, there are woman that would indulge my desires if in return I was accepting of their shortcomings".

What's difficult is that sometimes the line is blurry. I know I can't expect a woman to gratify my every desire. On the other hand, I have learned that I have the right to voice my needs and look for a partner that will validate and pair with me in a way that works for me. So sometimes it can be hard to tell what's a reasonable need versus an addictive and destructive desire. But while the line is blurry in some instances, it's very clear in others and it is just difficult because I haven't resolved all of this conflict within myself.

So when I talk about not dating for a LONG time after M, it isn't just that I'm trying to repress my desires, or that I'm uncomfortable voicing them. It's partly because I am still working on what I feel is appropriate for ME in MY life. I want to make sure that while I'm voicing my needs it is something I can feel is consistent with the person I want to be. And I need time both to sort that out, and to continue to outgrow the desires that don't have a place.

When I put this on paper I get very frustrated. Frustrated with how difficult it is to overcome. Scared that I'll either never overcome this and it will impact myself and my future R's (either with destructive behavior or with a perpetual frustration of desires that I can never satisfy that never abate).

But I keep going back to forgiving myself for not being able to change myself by myself, and believing that with faith it is possible. And that it takes time. So I am appreciative of my gift of time. I admit that I don't have it all figured out, or as step 1 of AA would say I am powerless against it, that I don't know how to manage myself. I am doing what I can to monitor my thinking, my behavior, and most importantly to be open to God's will for lack of better words. And I am trying to take good care of myself, reinvesting in self care, my R's with my children, and the job I need to execute to continue to meet my family's financial needs.

With all of that said I remain very appreciative of what I have been given. While I have my problems (both internally and in my outer life), I have been bestowed a lot of blessings. There is a road ahead of me yet I refuse to disrespect what I've been given by waiting to appreciate where I am. My family. A good job that I enjoy. Gifts that I get to celebrate and share with others. And the companionship of some tremendous allies along the road. Thank you all for being part of it.

Quote:

When I'm feeling this way I find myself thinking things like "there are couples that are able to use porn together and still be functional, there are woman that would indulge my desires if in return I was accepting of their shortcomings".

Yes, but I think you need to reframe a bit.

SHE would indulge your desires

IF

You were accepting of her SHORTCOMINGS.

?????

What is your vision of a healthy, mutual respectful relationship?

In my vision, I want my partner to love and honor me. To work with me so as not just to be accepting (read: tolerating) of my "shortcomings" -- not to be sitting in judgment of me and the ways I'm imperfect -- but loving me as a whole person, in total, taking my flaws as flip sides of my strengths.

One of your strengths is that you are a high achiever. The flip side of that is that you sometimes come across as boastful or self-important. One of my strengths is that I'm highly competent. The flip side of that is I don't always ask for or accept help when I should.

Indulging your sexual desires, to me, should not be an exchange for your acceptance of your partner. I hope you find someone who is sexually compatible with you, and that she stays that way. You shouldn't attempt to partner up with someone who isn't. But you definitely should not attempt to partner with someone whose shortcomings you have to make an effort to accept, because that pretty much assures you won't be able to see her strengths. And if you can't see and appreciate her strengths, then it can't be a real partnership and you'll only be setting yourself up for another cr@ppy marriage.

Glad you're feeling hopeful these days.

Well said Maybell. That set off a big red flag for me, too. We all need someone we are sexually compatible with, it can't be a trade off for other things. And as far as tolerating her shortcomings, well, recipe for disaster. My former boss/priest/friend has a whole sermon on that topic.

But Zues, I like the path you are on these days. Lots of thought put into things. Good job.

Thanks for the replies.

I can see how I come off as boastful. I'm sure it's origins are defensive, trying to compensate for areas I know I struggle. It's good to know that's how it comes off.

The comments about exchanging the acceptance of some deficiency in a partner in return for reciprocation- those are thoughts I have when I doubt my ability for a healthy relationship. That isn't what I want. What I want is the type of relationship you describe. Those outlooks linger when I doubt my ability to achieve a healthier R. When you've struggled with addiction for 20 years it's hard to believe things can be different, and when I doubt myself sometimes I think that's the best R I'll be able to achieve.

(Edited to try to find the right words- to put it simply, there are times I think "I need to find a woman with such problems she'll put up with mine." So when I feel I can't fix my own problems, there are times I feel like the best I'll do is to pair up with a woman that has her own addiction issues, and we can form a nice dysfunctional pairing.)

I do appreciate you talking about your vision of a healthy R. It's nice to hear what that looks like from someone's point of view that isn't fighting those inner battles.

Every pairing is a nice dysfunctional pairing!!!

I saw a mug several years ago: the only normal people are the ones you don't know very well.

You've read at least some of my threads. I may not struggle with porn, or alcohol, but that doesn't mean I don't struggle.

What I bring to an R is commitment, loyalty, generosity, and the assumption of goodwill. What I'm looking for is a (tall, active, intelligent, reasonably funny) MAN who also brings commitment, loyalty, generosity, and the assumption of goodwill.

What do you bring to the table? What are you looking for?

Originally Posted By: Zues126

(Edited to try to find the right words- to put it simply, there are times I think "I need to find a woman with such problems she'll put up with mine." So when I feel I can't fix my own problems, there are times I feel like the best I'll do is to pair up with a woman that has her own addiction issues, and we can form a nice dysfunctional pairing.).

Zues, I'm not making light of addictions, they are serious stuff and I've had a front row seat to fighting an alcohol addiction. However, I often get the impression that you think you are only lovable if you are perfect. That's familiar territory for me. And it's wrong. It took me months and some counseling and some good people on this board to realize that. Can you get there too?

Thanks guys. You both found words of expressing the same idea, that you can't wait until you're perfect to be valuable. I definitely know that perfectionism is a trait of mine, and that is linked to the idea that I'm not enough, which is linked by the desire to look for something outside of me to feel better.

I recognize the "all or nothing" type of thinking that goes along with perfectionism, and that's a good reminder to adjust my goals. Instead of shooting for perfect, I'd like to get to the point I have reasonable confidence I can do better in my next R.

Day to day I'm doing well. Better than ever in my life. I know I've made a lot of progress, I promise I'm not fishing for praise. I think it's the praise I have gotten that compelled to react this way and make sure I was accountable to everyone that I'm not all better. I don't want the fact that I'm doing better to allow me to avoid the work I have yet to do. Something Bond said to Parker was "if you still succumb to your addiction you haven't changed that much". I simply haven't come far enough to pass myself off as a finished product and I don't want to give anyone the impression that I think I've got it figured out.

I'm not sure I have answers to what I offer, or what I'm looking for. Not yet. I've fallen short and lost something that was very precious to me, and I'm not positive I can do better. I guess I've been a bit humbled. That's one of the reasons I'm grateful for the gift of time. It is a time to rediscover what I like about myself, and uncover the answers to those questions. Thank you both for talking this through.

Hey Zues,

Addiction is hard, I'm battling with it myself. But you yourself said, "Day to day, I'm doing well. Better than ever in my life."

I think that's a great place to work from. That's a great place to be! I got sober when my W walked out and some days think that it might be worth it. Not every day, hell, not even most days. But I had to ask myself if her coming back would be an even trade for falling off the wagon and the answer is always a resounding "NO".

Take your successes and build on them. And remember, one day at a time.

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