New thread!! And question!!
I have maintained my composure the past few days when wife was freaking out. I did not talk about R. I detached very well. Today she seems better, more talkative and happy. She has been going out and walking the past couple days. FINALLY went and saw one of her good friends when she dropped off youngest S for birthday party. She is now planning to start walking with her friend 3 times a week. To me this is a good thing. She seems to act like her old self when she gets out and visits with the other women in town like she used to. I am maintaining my focus on what I am doing. I am listening when she speaks, but I am still keeping my distance. Any other advice or suggestions are welcome. Thank You.
I would just focus on yourself Joe, thats the one thing you CAN control right now, is the things you're doing for yourself. Your W's path is going to take its own course, and the best thing you can do is really just find a happy place in who you are, that will radiate throughout your person, and your wife will see it, even if it takes longer for her to come around.
Its great she's doing things for herself that connect her to the community, and bring her back into the real world, and not the fantasy world of the phone and locked away room she's become accustomed to.
Keep your distance, keep your morals and your boundaries. Make her come to you, not the other way around. I myself have been practicing this, and while its hard, and what would seem counter-intuitive, its been working for me as well. Women, and even men, love to go after what they can't have, the challenge is sometimes part of the draw. This happens so frequently for us LBH, that we over amp our desire to make things work, which, as we've both continually seen, just back fires completely.
So stay the course, measure progress in yourself, and the little things that happen positively between your wife and yourself. Keep posting, and keep your personal logs, and in the end, you'll become a much fuller and desirable person and partner.
This has been my Mantra, and while it can be trying, emotional, and sometimes seem impossible, if you look not at the past, or the future, but just really focus on the present moment/day/hour, and ask yourself, "am i doing X to make myself happy now", and the answer is yes, then all the other things will fall away. If the answer is no, stop, and re-assess, and find something you CAN do for yourself until the answer is yes again. Practice this enough, and you'll start to create your own happiness around you that will be fulfilling, and it will naturally draw positive energy around you and into your life. That sort of a draw will be impossible for your wife, and all those around you, to miss, and eventually, it will draw them in as well.
Nathaniel
Thanks sawbby, that is exactly what I am doing. It is not hard to take things slow because to be honest, I have been thinking all day how I would handle things if she started trying again. It will take me a LONG time to trust her again, if I can. I am also deciding on if I can deal with the work issue. If things get better and somewhere down the road the intimacy comes back, can I deal with that after knowing what she was doing on the phone all night. I think in the back of my head, I could be wondering if she is really into me or thinking of one of her calls. If she quits the job, and over time we can work on the marriage, it will still take a long time before I think I would be comfortable. I feel betrayed and cheated on now even though it is just a phone thing. Hope that does not sound silly, but that is how I feel.
Something dawned on me last night. W has been acting more like her old self ever since stepson moved back home. When stepson graduated and moved out was when W started pushing me away. I know in the past she has made comments on how she feels weird now that older kids are all grown and moved out. Stepson was youngest from first marriage. Now that she is back at the house for awhile, she is acting more like her old self and also going on walks with him, hanging out more with him. When both stepsons lived in same big town, she would go down once in awhile and only take younger stepson to lunch. Never asked older one. Sometimes it seems like she spends more time with stepson than the younger kids that are still supposed to be living at home. It is really weird!!
It is hard to take things slow, trust me i know!
You have to think of it like a general in an army. The war is what you want to achieve victory in, not in every little battle. You have to take the long-tail view, and set things up in a way that moves you towards that long term goal. Its VERY tough sometimes, as you have things you want to change right away, but your W isn't in the same head space, or reading and getting the same advice as you, so she's likely going through changes, but at a MUCH reduced pace. Be the tactician, make your moves to win the war, and don't fret over the small losses here and there. Use them to better strategize and work out how to continue towards the bigger goal.
Sorry, i like analogies, and thats the one i find is best for myself to think of when it comes to my own marriage. Not that its really a "war", but that theres a bigger, farther off goal, and i have to keep moving all the little pieces in that direction together.
The stepson issue is an issue i'm not sure about. That she's feeling better with him around makes some amount of sense, but that she doesn't feel that same way with the younger ones, i'm not sure what to say about that. Maybe someone else on the list can respond to those specific questions/issues?
Nice analogy! Makes sense
Today I am going on a trip for work. It is just an over night trip, but I am excited!!:) I get a break from the house and the drama for one night. I need a break. I realized that last night as I was packing my bag. My youngest S was upset of course because he will miss his dad. But I see how my wife is dumping everything on my and only thinks about work right now. My D was upset because she needed help with a project and wife told her later everytime she asked. I helped her get it done last night just in time. S was behind on his homework from being home sick for a few days. It seems that the kids come home from school and she just lets them play games and do whatever instead of getting school things done. I have turned into Mr Mom. If I don't do it, than it doesn't get done. Dishes need done, laundry needs done so me and kids have cloths. But last night I just took a deep breath and helped both kids. I am keeping space between me and W. I talk with her about kids and that is about it. I am just doing my thing. It feels weird sometimes. Like this morning, I did not know if I should give her a hug goodbye or not. I decided against it for now. It is part of my detaching. I thought alot about what cat wrote to me and I am thankful for her seeing another perspective. Could very well be my wife's perspective! I am going to work hard on fixing these things for myself and whatever relationship that comes in the future. My wife or someone else. I am prepared to work on our marriage should my wife choose to. But not until the phone sex job changes and we figure out how to work on trust. I am with Sandi!! I have done things in our marriage that needs to change. But nothing that deserves the lying and infidelity. My wife's perspective on things I have done could be taken as emotional abuse to her. Which is what I need to acknowledge and take responsibility for. And I am. My perspective of her job is she is cheating with these phone calls. So I pray every night for God to help me forgive her. I pray for God to help me work on myself and change for me. I pray for answers. I pray for my wife and everything she is going through.
Thanks V!! I had a good time. It is a buying show for one of our whole salers. They have a big dinner and games and contests at night. It was fun. I noticed something different about myself this time. I have always been a very quiet person in public. Did not do well around people. 2 years ago when I went, I ate and than went back to my room early. This year, I started introducing myself to people and visiting. I met some people I did not know and was confident talking with people. In the past, I have struggled with this.
Thats great Joe!
Glad you're getting out there and taking control in a new and fresh way!
Thanks swabby. It was very unusual for me. I remember actually getting stressed out in the past before I would go to these things. This time I was excited. I have never actually just sat down and started talking to people I did not know before. How are things with you?
I am starting to wonder if wife is Divorce Busting me!!!
LOL! I know V. But now my wife has started GAL. She is exercising, going tanning, walking and avoiding being around me. It is weird! LOL! I am glad she is doing these things for herself though. Probably make her feel better about herself.
No Joe you are DB!
W is responding........
V
Thank you V! I have felt really great lately. I don't wake up dwelling on my situation. I don't stress about what might happen or what can I do to change things. I have been more relaxed and positive about alot of things lately. I did learn a big thing a from my trip. I learned that no matter what happens, I will be OK! I am learning new things about myself and getting a confidence I did not have before. I would like to start working on some of my other issues that has caused problems in our marriage in the past, but don't know where to start?
I'm doing OK Joe, you know how it goes. Up days, down days, progress is having more up than down!
I'm GAL, and following the steps, even while down under in NZ!
I hear you swabby! I have found I am having way more up days than down days anymore. This morning I felt a little down, I just started smiling and singing and it felt really good! Got myself out of my down mood real quick! The weather getting nicer here is helping also. I am able to get out with the kids more. Going to play baseball with the kids today. Do some work around the house. Wife said she is going to see one of her girlfriends today for a bit and than has an appointment. I just said "okay".
V, V!!! Where are you V? I have not heard from you in awhile.
I have a question for the vets! I have been doing pretty good at detaching lately. When I interact with W it is always like a friendly neighbor. I also have been watching alot of basketball in the living room lately and not paying much attention to what she is doing. I noticed lately that she has been letting me know that she is going to this place and going to see this person and than yesterday she said she had an appointment today. I could be wrong, but it seems like she is trying to get me to start asking what she is up to. I have acknowledged her when she talks to me and I say okay. But I don't have much of a conversation about it. This afternoon she was on a cleaning spree and she made about a million trips by the living room throwing things away. Is this normal behavior?
Joe
I am reading your thread. Just had quite a bit of personal stuff going on. Mainly to do with abuse.
I can say when I learned the 'trick' to detatching and for each person the key is different, it was very helpful to me. I found I could observe my H and gradually awareness of his attitudes and activities became clearer.
I think your W is doing something the vets call Temperature checking. Of course she could also be spring cleaning.
V
Thank you V. I hope everything is okay. I am not a vet of course, but I am also here if you need to vent
I enjoy your posts and appreciate your help. I think today could have been both! Temp checking and spring cleaning! It seems as though she wanted me to know she was organizing her room. I think it is great that she is organizing it. I have become VERY comfortable having my own room. Hopefully that doesn't sound bad. I like the space between us right now. I am looking forward to getting my truck back this week so I can start going fishing and take the kids to town.
See this is where the Divorce Busting gets confusing!!
Joe, DB is straightforward. DB is about you Joe and doing that which works for Joe. Your M is ancillary to Joe, if something is not working do something else.
Wives send their husbands signals that they don't understand.
Unlikely it is signals, women in general are considered the better communicators. This is generalising as in all cats like fish, supposing your cat prefers chicken and is allergic to fish. Is what you are saying that you (Joe) have not yet decoded your Ws behaviour and words? Consider how large do the gestures have to be, how old the talk before you hear her.
After sending these signals for a long time, the wife finds another man.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Than we come here and are told to avoid contact with them. Don't text, call, write or try to talk to them. So now the wife has more ammunition to say " I'm glad I left". Or we help push them out the door by doing all these things.
Joe, you do what works. In some cases communication helps in others it does not. WW in general are hard to communicate with when they are deep in an EA and PA, and it is for the LBS that it is recommended less contact. Many of them leave themselves.
I am suppose to validate my wife's feelings, but I can't because we are not suppose to talk about relationship things.
Joe, I do not read this into DB. V validates her H and his feelings, it is human and good to do.
I will no longer have drawn out discussions about my R with H. I will validate H in his feelings. The two things are not the same and there is no result from one to the other. Just because I do not discuss our R then I can still validate H feelings. Validation does not mean that I agree, just that I acknowledge. H may say V I hate cheese and I do not want cheese in my house. I can say, I hear you H you do not like cheese and I understand that. I am not agreeing, just acknowledging.
I recommended a book to MCS which you may find helpful which discusses this Co dependency for dummies. You can also look at Al Turtles site for the following: Validation, Detachment.
Or I am suppose to DETACH.
Detachment means to let go of the outcome. It means doing what needs to be done without expectation of results. Detatchment does not mean not attaching. If done properly detachment is very helpful to both DB and your M. It means trying a 180 and having no expectation of success, it means trying new ways of approaching your issues and then evaluating if it needs adapting or changing. Detatchment is a life tool.
I wonder if this is really Divorce Busting or Divorce prepping??? I feel like the things I have been doing lately are pushing my wife out the door.
Change what you do, try something else if that is how you feel. Use a new tool.
I get the feeling she is stock piling money and spring cleaning so she is ready to leave.
W choice. Get Intel so you know if it concerns you.
Joe, I felt I wanted to answer you from my experience.
Thank you for responding V. What you said makes sense. I have struggled with all of this because I get heading down a path that I think is right and than something comes along and I second guess myself.
I started working on being more loving and supportive of my wife about 2 months ago. I would leave her nice notes once in awhile. Send her a text once in awhile. Really listen and ask her about what was going on with her. Things I should have been doing all along. It felt different to me. She was giving me hugs and saying good night and getting kisses once in awhile. To be honest, it felt like it was not the right time for me to be doing these things. I wanted to, but not while she was talking these type of phone calls. I felt like a doormat. But I was confused about what to do. I had a gut feeling that she was talking with someone else. I have had gut feelings in our marriage before and they turned out to be true. So I decided to test my gut feeling. Our cell phones were under her name. I wanted to see about how much it would cost to upgrade. But I need to log on to the account. So I needed the log in. She texted it to me. Didn't work. Came home that night. Told her it didn't work. I asked her to log on with her computer so I could look while she takes her nap. She logged on and sat right next to me and watched me like a hawk. I told her I would put her computer back when I was done. She said she was not tired. I than had to use the bathroom and told her I would look at it another time. When I came back upstairs she was taking her nap and had logged out of the account. She said I could use her computer. I tried logging in again. Nothing. Tried several times. Nothing. Just happened to type in something in her search on the computer and all these emails came up using her character name from work. The only reason I see that she would not want me to see the cell phone account is because she does not want me to see the number she is texting or calling all the time. I made the decision right than that I had to change what I was doing. I was working on being more loving and supportive to her while she appears to be carrying on a online affair.
This is where I get confused. When I read about all the posts saying that I didn't see the signs. I did not love my wife like I should have. I caused her emotional problems. I start believing that I drove her to have this affair or become addicted to this job. So how am I supposed to say" I will not be in a open marriage or support you while you are having a EA or support you while doing this job", if I drove her to do this??
These past few weeks, I have felt better about myself. I have felt stronger and more confident. I have felt like I can deal with these things and I will be okay. But I also want to work on my issues. I also don't want to do more of the same behavior with my W. So if she feels like I neglected her in the past, am I just doing more of the same? I also want to work on some things about myself, but don't know where to start.
Joe
There is plenty of time. I think you are learning and growing quite quickly and you need time.
Lots and lots of time.
This is not like making an instant pudding from a mix from a supermarket. It is more like going to a farm , planting a seed, watering, weeding, picking the plant, washing, grinding, making the flour. Then you have to milk the cow, transport the mlk. Etc
You are rushing, your sitch has taken a long time to develop and it will take a long time to work through. Your knowledge and skills will take time to grow to integrate.
If the answer takes time then it does so.
S L O W L Y
V
Fat finger syndrome
Some threads are more general they are informational and discursive of ideas and strategies, idea to think about, some of the ideas will apply to you a lot, some a little and others not at all. Your own thread is the place to discuss and apply items specific to your sitch. For example items that look at piecing or divorce may not apply to you at this time. Items relating to abuse are interesting to V but items on WW not at all because V is not a WW. Etc
Joe, perhaps more theoretical knowledge will help you. Consider a period of reading and consolidation of your thinking. Particularly on boundaries, detachment and validation. The general threads will help you with techniques and some will be easier to use to start with. if you were learning a new language say Cantonese, then it is unlikely that you would go and discuss advanced economic theory with a Cantonese professor after two weeks! You would have lessons, go and order a loaf of bread, chat to a friend and gradually build your skill. It is the same with these skills. It takes time to build the skills and practice and after these are skills for life, for the rest of your life.
V
V
Thank you V. I will try doing some reading. It feels like that is all I have done since all this started. Wished I would have done it sooner.
Thank you V. I will try doing some reading. It feels like that is all I have done since all this started. Wished I would have done it sooner.
Skim the book, grasp the ideas, then read.
Make active reading, buy coloured pens, a notebook or lever arch a5 file and answer the questions in the books, question. how can I apply this? Google key words, if a board member says a resource helped, go search it out. Reread, have a break. Yes, V really does do that!
Search TED talks and choose a couple to watch.
Scribble, draw, use stickies. Then try applying in situations which are non threatening, the guy at the shop, your mum etc.
This makes sense. I will do this. Thank you for the good ideas:)
This is where I get confused. When I read about all the posts saying that I didn't see the signs. I did not love my wife like I should have. I caused her emotional problems. I start believing that I drove her to have this affair or become addicted to this job. So how am I supposed to say" I will not be in a open marriage or support you while you are having a EA or support you while doing this job", if I drove her to do this??
We talked about some of this on my thread, so I don't want to rehash it again. I'm sure you've probably heard someone say about their S that he/she drove me to drink. But that is not exactly true, is it? The drinking was a chose. A lot of people self medicate, trying to cope with difficult problems, and usually, add more problems by the method they choose.
Joe, we have all made mistakes in our relationships. If the message coming across is saying you didn't love your W the way you should have, and you are responsible for her decisions.........maybe it was not worded very well, IDK.
I have gone back over some of your posts and I see a guy who is sensitive and when under pressure may over-react just a hair? Sounds exactly like me when I am stressed out.
So whenever you are confused, by all means, speak up. Likewise, when we see you say something we feel could have been misunderstood, okay?
For the record, everyone on the board may not agree 100% all the time in the advice given. Partly b/c each stitch has some variaration, as well as similarities. The other part has to do with the one giving the advice and their experiences and knowledge. But even more importantly.......If you read advice on another member's thread, it may not necessarily be designed for
your stitch. Make sense?
For example, whenever I talk about WW's, it is in overall general terms. I am not there and do not know that woman personally. All I have about that stitch is what the H has said. I can usually hit pretty close, but mostly it is a wide spectrum.
Not long ago, there was a newcomer who very confused b/c as he had read Divorce Remedy, and he took
everything MWD said to apply personally to his stitch. However, there are some parts that may be advice for those with unfaithful partners and wouldn't apply to those who had faithful partners. See what I mean? We have to make sure who the message goes to, and what their stitch is.
Of course, if you've directly been given contrary advice, I could understand why it would rattle your brain. I don't know what to tell you other than try to stay balanced and think hard about it.
Actually, that's the very reason I started a thread about wayward wives b/c I had seen over time how some newcomers were getting mixed advice......or interpretation. Some of the advice was spot on for a WAW who was not wayward, however, was not so effective when applied toward a WW.
I think you were doing pretty good until the emotional abuse subject came up. You see, I didn't make a big deal out of your WW accusing you of it, b/c WW's say stuff like that all the time! But when pointed out to you by another member, you have been twisted inside ever since. Only you know if it is true or not. If it is, then get help so you can change it. If not, then move forward. But either way (guilty or not), your W is the one responsible for her own actions. I have repeated that statement many, many times.
Look Joe, if your W did not have a wayward heart, the minute you told her you did not want her doing the phone sex.......she would have dropped it immediately, with great relief. Instead, how did she react? Those are the telling signs, right there.
So how am I supposed to say" I will not be in a open marriage or support you while you are having a EA or support you while doing this job", if I drove her to do this??
Nobody pushed you into saying anything. We gave you examples of how to state a boundary. It is your decision to make. You felt more like a man than you had in a long time, didn't you? But now you are back to second guessing yourself b/c you think everything is your fault and you have no right to say this to your W?
Thank You Sandi,
I am finding out that I am sensitive and do over-react when stressed out. I believe these things did cause issues in my marriage. I know I have over-reacted at quite a few things in our past. This could have felt like emotional abuse to my wife. I just started reading a book about detachment and codependency. Something the writer said caught my attention. She talked about how angry her father was all the time. When I read about some of the things her father got angry about, it made me think. I think I was similar to this person's father. I remember thinking I had a anger problem a long time ago. I remember reading a book about it. I also remember getting upset at little things that the kids did or getting upset because my wife did not do something when I thought she should have. Now that I am remembering these things, I am starting feel terrible.
I very well could have enabled her addiction! I can see how she could be addicted to the feelings she is getting from what she is doing. All along I thought I was providing her a good life and actually she was just hanging on. I am starting to see things differently now. I think she has held in all these hurts and they just came about with all these changes that happened. Or we have reached a point where all the negatives I have done are out weighing the positives in our relationship?
Joe
All that is happening here is that like you as I read I am rebalancing, questioning and putting perspective on my sitch and my own behaviour. After reading three or four books then generally a view of my own. That is why it is good to take notes.
I find that if i go back and reread my own thread and questions that many of the answers will fall into place but some questions still remain. These are things that need work.
The other main piece of action is to forgive yourself, whilst the effects of what was done were unintended (you were attempting another result perhaps) then damage was done. We can never go back and undo a single thing we did, the past is gone. Today is all you have, take care of today.
Know this too, WW does what she does as a result of her own desicions. She chose her waywardness. Her decision not yours. Of course some of the things you have said or done may be damaging to your M but this is WW choice. I have been very badly abused, neglected and pushed away by an aggressive wilful H but despite all that I am not wayward. I am not involved in an affair. So you see we have a choice.
With knowledge Joe you are going to make more life affirming choices?
V
I find that if i go back and reread my own thread and questions that many of the answers will fall into place but some questions still remain.
These are things that need work.
GREAT ADVICE!
Thank you V!
I did realize that last night. I realized that I have made some mistakes. I want to learn from them. I want to improve myself no matter what happens. I have carried alot of baggage into my marriage from my childhood and my past. I used to just bottle it all up inside and deal with it. Unfortunately these things had a effect on how I deal with people and situations. I grew up in that cowboy life. You don't talk about your feelings. I was always right. My way is the right way. I have been out of that lifestyle for several years and I now see how it effects my relationships. It is hard to change after growing up a certain way. I am getting better, but have a long way to go.
The thing I have to work on through all this is to find a happy medium. Just like last night when I came to the realization about my actions in my marriage and how they have effected my wife. I started feeling guilty. I started feeling like this is all my fault. Once I get those feelings I start heading back to being a doormat. Luckily last night I did not act on any of my feelings other than to text my W about my D next practice. I am trusting in God through all this. I do believe my W has had a wayward heart long before her S graduated. She did lie to me for a year and half about our mortgage payments and she did a fine job. Some of that might have been because she did not want to tell me that she was not making enough money, who knows. The point is she has known my feelings on lying and trust as long as we have been together. And the end result was us losing our house. I made a choice to stick it out. I did not run to lawyer. I did not run to the arms of someone else. I remembered my VOWS! For better or for worse!
Joe
Guilt is not always a bad emotion. If you like my view then I consider that guilt is outward looking, it is about what we do and motivates us to change. Really evil people do not suffer guilt, in my opinion.
Shame is different because it is not about what we do but about who we are. it looks inwards and often we try to cover and hide who we are because we do not feel good enough. We are all Gods creatures and we are in his grace, as he made us.
So I will ask you a question, if you are ready to answer it please do, if not say, "I will come back to that." Or "not yet"
" what does emotional abuse mean to you?"
V
Thank you V! You have such a good way of looking at things. You help me alot!
A few years ago, I would have told you that emotional abuse was insulting someone, yelling at them, being mean to them, or angry at them all the time.
I think now that emotional abuse is ignoring the fact that I may have hurt someone, not listening to them, always wanting my way, not noticing that I have hurt someone repeatedly, not taking their feelings into account, being negative and never supportive, being controlling and getting angry when I don't get my way. Blaming someone else for problems and doing these things over and over and never changing. Blaming someone else for my problems.
I am feeling kinda sad.
Hi Joe
It's hard to realise these things we have done, and know that we could have done them differently or done them better. But I am glad for you that you are reflecting on some of this and seeing your own contributions.
This is really important, because it helps us move forward and become better people. Putting yourself in your W's shoes and understanding how this may have felt isn't easy. But one of the things they say on the forum is that a WAS won't return to the same M - something has to become different.
Reflecting in the way you are doing, is a step towards changing. And whether or not this saves your M, it will mean an improved Joe going forwards. A Joe who doesn't hurt his W, who listens to her, who gives and takes, and is positive, goes with the flow and takes responsibility for his own problems. That's a guy who many women would love to be with.
Good luck on your journey my friend....
OK
So you know the difference now between verbal abuse and emotional abuse.
If you would like to address it,
Tell me how you think you have created emotional abuse in your M, examples taken from your list above, then what will you put in place to make sure you don't do that again.
Remember shaming yourself will not help, feeling sad that it has happened is fine so let's us identify how we can change this so Joe can move on from it.
V
That is why I am doing this and really wanting to change! No matter what happens with M. I don't want to be this type of person. I think that is why I became so defensive. I saw other husbands be this way and I thought, not me. I am sad that I have acted like this.
Okay.
I wanted my wife to have a job and make some money, but always complained about her working all the time.
I would get angry when she did not get things taken care of during the day( phone calls to mortgage company, health insurance, etc) and the first thing out of my mouth when I walked in was what she found out or did she call. When she forgot, I told her she needed to start writing things down and get it done.
When we got in major fights, I would yell and tell her if she didn't like it she can get the heck out! This I did change. But I did this alot in our early years together.
I never said anything positive to her. I complained alot that she wasn't doing enough.
If I didn't get sex when I wanted it, I complained.
When she wanted to sleep next to me, I said I needed my space. I wish like crazy I could take that one back.
When I walked in the door, I should have hugged her and asked about her day and really listened with eye contact.
I should have shared my things with her. Truck, remote to the TV, tools, everything.
When we had problems with the kids I should not have blamed her. Especially my stepkids. I chose to be their father. I knew what I was getting into. Luckily I think I did more good for the kids than bad. But I have seen my oldest stepson act similar to my old ways.
I should have told her I loved her more often and showed it. More hugs, holding her hand in public, cuddling without expecting sex.
I never insulted her appearance, but I did not tell her how beautiful she was.
I needed to be more supportive in everything she did. I needed to listen more instead of trying to fix everything. I needed to let her be herself, not who I thought she should be. Or act the way I thought she should act.
Joe
Good list.
I would like you to take each item and see what the reverse might be. So instead of putting it in the past tense, I did, I needed to. Try putting it as an action for now today and add something positive to it for example:
I can share the tools, tv remote, truck with W willingly.
If W looks beautiful I will say you look beautiful today, your dress suits you.
Etc.
After this you and I can examine your list and see which items fit Sandi 37 guidelines and which may need to (temporarily) put into storage. It would be good though to identify some things you can do easily as 180s.
I do this exercise too.
V
Thank You V
Okay here it goes,
When W puts in long hours I can say "You are such a hard worker and do a great job at helping provide for the family."
When W doesn't get certain things done during the day, I will not make a big deal about it. I can also make phone calls. I can also thank her when she does get things done and so more appreciation.
When we get in major arguments, I will not say things that hurt W and not say things to control the argument. When things get heated, I will take a time out.
When wife is not in the mood I can say "I know you are not in the mood right now, would you like to just cuddle for awhile?"
When we go to bed and W wants to cuddle I will say "I like it when you sleep next to me."
When I walk in the house after work I will ask W " So how was your day? Anything exciting happen?"
I can willingly share my truck, tools, TV and everything with W.
When we have problems with the kids, I can take responsibility also and support W through the problems.
I will tell W that I love her more often, hug her more often, hold her hand and cuddle with her.
When W looks beautiful, I will tell her she looks beautiful and tell her that she looks nice in that outfit.
I will tell W how much I appreciate her. I will listen when she is upset and acknowledge her feelings without trying to fix the situation. I will tell W that I love her just the way she is. I will allow W to be who she is not who I think she should be.
How was that? I can see how this will help change my thinking.
Okay.
I wanted my wife to have a job and make some money, but always complained about her working all the time.
I would get angry when she did not get things taken care of during the day( phone calls to mortgage company, health insurance, etc) and the first thing out of my mouth when I walked in was what she found out or did she call. When she forgot, I told her she needed to start writing things down and get it done.
When we got in major fights, I would yell and tell her if she didn't like it she can get the heck out! This I did change. But I did this alot in our early years together.
I never said anything positive to her. I complained alot that she wasn't doing enough.
If I didn't get sex when I wanted it, I complained.
When she wanted to sleep next to me, I said I needed my space. I wish like crazy I could take that one back.
When I walked in the door, I should have hugged her and asked about her day and really listened with eye contact.
I should have shared my things with her. Truck, remote to the TV, tools, everything.
When we had problems with the kids I should not have blamed her. Especially my stepkids. I chose to be their father. I knew what I was getting into. Luckily I think I did more good for the kids than bad. But I have seen my oldest stepson act similar to my old ways.
I should have told her I loved her more often and showed it. More hugs, holding her hand in public, cuddling without expecting sex.
I never insulted her appearance, but I did not tell her how beautiful she was.
I needed to be more supportive in everything she did. I needed to listen more instead of trying to fix everything. I needed to let her be herself, not who I thought she should be. Or act the way I thought she should act.
Joe this list is identical to what I did to get in my situation. The advantage you have over me is you are still in your house. I am out and D has been filed. I never realized at the time I was hurting her so much when doing those things. But now I realized I lost the most important person in the world to me over it.
I was even the gift of time for 5 months still living together and all I did was pressure her to stay with me. So the second she left she was so relieved that she can't even think of going back into that situation with me.
I'm so sorry errod. I too was pressuring her to work on our marriage up until about 3 months ago. We have still had our arguments. But they have changed alot from how they were. I basically leave her alone right now. I don't bring up any R stuff. We only talk about the kids. I do my thing and she does hers. I am REALLY glad I am learning these things about myself. I am so thankful for this forum and the people calling me out on myself. No matter what happens in the future, I want to be a better man, husband and father. All of this is helping me. And especially God, Sandi and V!
I made a couple of posts months ago when my situation first started but I did not get much feedback, so I left the board. I have since comeback but I let things get to out of control before coming back. I am beaten and battered but I am not giving up on my marriage. When I said until death do us part. I meant every word of that.
I do think you Joe can still save your marriage if you listen to the advice given. Once you are living under separate roofs everything changes really quickly.
I started out reading a bunch of posts on here back in November and December. But I never signed up. I was afraid I was going to get booted like the last place I went to for help after I told about my wife's work and my issue with it.
I am really listening to the advice here. No matter what happens. I know I will come out a better person whether my marriage is saved or not. That is MY goal for ME! I appreciate your post and I will keep you in my prayers. When I think back, I think I always wanted to change, but never knew where to start. And I was in denial alot.
Joe, I don't want to interfere with the work Vanilla is doing with you. I was hoping she would get back and respond to your list of positive actions, and she will. I guess I get nervous you will do something without waiting. The only thing I want to point out was the one about her work/job.
When W puts in long hours I can say "You are such a hard worker and do a great job at helping provide for the family."
Perhaps you were not referring to the present job she is doing that is your point of contention, IDK. Maybe you are just practicing for the future?
I'm sure V will help you greatly in these areas. She is gifted with positive thinking & talking.
Thank you Sandi
Yes I am waiting very patiently. I really want to work on these things. So I am very grateful for your help and V.
Yes I was practicing for the future. I absolutely was not referring to her present job. Thank you Sandi!
Thank You V
Okay here it goes,
When W puts in long hours I can say "You are such a hard worker and do a great job at helping provide for the family."
Validating is good Joe, but we validate the things we want repeated in our lives or that are positive or to acknowledge. In essence since you want W to stop her work, you do not praise it. OK? Instead silence on her job until you are ready to reinforce your boundary again. Find some other 'work' to praise, like the spring cleaning. When W doesn't get certain things done during the day, I will not make a big deal about it.
could you consider silence!I can also make phone calls.
Care not to take over, is there a way you could do this that will make you seem positive?I can also thank her when she does get things done and so more appreciation.
I really like this, a simple thank you for......
Gratitude is great. We appreciate being appreciated (care not to overdo this) generally appreciate the things that are done voluntarily or take great effort. Intermittent is also good.When we get in major arguments, I will not say things that hurt W and not say things to control the argument. When things get heated, I will take a time out.
Learning to argue properly is very good indeed. There is a book called blame storming which talks about arguing. It is mainly about taking the personal out of the argument and reducing escalation. Can you give me an example of an argument you had about something relatively minor and how you could have agreed to disagree or reached a compromise.When wife is not in the mood I can say "I know you are not in the mood right now, would you like to just cuddle for awhile?"
Have you thought of saying "I could do with a hug right now?" stating this in the most positive way you can. You can reduce this to "would you like to just cuddle for a while", what would you do if W says "no"?When we go to bed and W wants to cuddle I will say "I like it when you sleep next to me."
This is just lovely.When I walk in the house after work I will ask W " So how was your day? Anything exciting happen?"
this is very positive, leave the junk at the doorI can willingly share my truck, tools, TV and everything with W.
When W asks then share, but expect respect for your things.When we have problems with the kids, I can take responsibility also and support W through the problems.
Problems? Only problems, what about the fun stuff too? And in doing so how can you make sure that W feels empowered rather than you are taking over?I will tell W that I love her more often, hug her more often, hold her hand and cuddle with her.
When W looks beautiful, I will tell her she looks beautiful and tell her that she looks nice in that outfit.
I will tell W how much I appreciate her. I will listen when she is upset and acknowledge her feelings without trying to fix the situation. I will tell W that I love her just the way she is. I will allow W to be who she is not who I think she should be.
How was that? I can see how this will help change my thinking.
Apologies Joe, some emergency in my sitch today which I can explain on my thread later.
That is very good Joe. I love things stated positively.
In light of Sandi 37 guidelines which of these actions would it be best to defer or know how to act when your WW is no longer wayward?
I am saying to you that you have alternatives to your previous behaviour and you may not find these appropriate when your WW is infringing your boundaries.
I am saddened that your wife's job should prevent you from having the feedback that you needed on any forum. how shortsighted and definitely not driven by higher power. In which case you have something much more valuable here. That is very fortunate they behaved that way, their loss in my view. I enjoy your questioning and direct views.
V
No need to apologize V. I am so grateful for your help. You have such a nice way of looking at things.
As to what things I can change right now and which ones I can save for later, here goes.:)
I will praise her for the cleaning or the good job selling things from home. If she decides to get a normal job, I will support and encourage her.
I have been thanking her for the small things she is doing lately. Just a nice "thank you".
Of course the cuddling, hugging and I Love You's are on hold until job has changed and work is done on her end also. Boundary for me, " I will not be intimate while W is participating in this type of lifestyle"
I have begun to be more positive when I walk in the door. I am working toward asking about her day, but do not want to hear about her job. I am acknowledging her when I walk in and taking the conversations slowly.
I am sharing things with everybody. Not being a TV hog. Sharing snacks I bought.
We are communicating about everything with kids. Both positive and negative. I am listening when she speaks. I am not controlling the conversation. I have noticed she does not look at me much when we talk anymore. Don't know if me looking her in the eye is making her nervous or something else.
I have also established another boundary for me. I WILL NOT lie about her job. If asked, I will say they need to ask W. And leave it at that. I struggled with lying to family and friends through all this. I did not like the feeling of lying to them. It goes against me and what I believe in.
I am also taking my children to church on Sunday. D has been showing interest in God and I think it is time for her to learn. We pray every night before bed.
I wish Sandi's 37 was on here so I could print it out. It is in a quote format when you click on the tread.
Answers to a couple of your questions,
If wife said "no" to cuddling, I would not get upset or take it personal. Sometimes people are not in the mood to be touched.
Argument we had recently about bed times for the kids, I compromised by allowing them to stay up to a certain time, but they have to read. No tablets or phones. W was very mad one morning because D was S tired. I remained calm, did not get defensive and saw her point of view. I acknowledged her being upset and compromised on the solution.
How am I doing V? Any suggestions?
Joe
This is very good, so now you have your 180 behaviour. The next review is how is W coping with the new Joe?
I will post back to you a longer post, it is the middle of my working day here.
Do you feel less frantic now about this? Action is always better than words I feel.
The strategy we have used together is called reframing, about finding the positives to make changes. This is what an old teacher of mine called the virtuous spiral, in that once we make some positive changes then more follow, the reverse of the negative spiral. ironically this teacher was called Mrs V, so maybe I chose my name to develop a little of her insight. IDK
So which of your actions can you do today?
V
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Thank you V. Yes I am feeling so much better about all this. I feel amazing. I feel so at peace!! Not frantic. No panic at all. Not stressed. Very positive!
I believe W is responding well already. Although that is not why I am doing this. I saw a different person last night. She sent me a couple texts which I responded to with confidence and short answers. I am doing this for ME.
Today I will greet her very positive and acknowledge her day. I will thank her for the small things she does today.
Thank You Sandi!!
If you are on an iPad then you can send the page to an air printer and in addition print to PDF and submit to kindle app.
From explorer use the print page facility.
I have my guidelines laminated in plastic. Helps with wiping the tears, sweat and tea stains from the page!
V
I would like to share what I am struggling with tonight. Resentment! Since this is something I struggle with a lot. How do others deal with resentment in our situations.
My resentment tonight was started because my wife was back to her normal behavior tonight. Work is more important than everything. Even helping her daughter with her nails before her music concert tomorrow. Last night she was actually acting like her old self. But she was off work last night. It seems like when she works, her attitude changes to a stuck up not so nice person. Than my resentment starts. Tonight I actually had doubts about whether I wanted to repair our R. It is hard to look at her the same way when she sells phone sex. It hurts me!
Just keep to your standards Joe.
I had a similar night last night, as the OM is still in the picture, but in the end, you have to be who YOU want to be, not who you are based on what they do. Their choices are just that, theirs.
Its tougher than hell! It hurts, you'll cry, from sadness, rage, hurt, all the above. But give yourself that time to do it. Don't push it away. Grieve a bit, it helps you find your resolve. Men, especially just haven't grown up with complex emotions and how to deal with them as well as women (not saying similar situations for women would be ANY less hard).
Toe the line. Keep your resolve. If she falters, be the rock that stays put in your feelings and boundaries. In the coming weeks and months, doing this will help YOU. And she'll either come around, or she won't. Its a sucky thing to think about, but thinking about that possibility makes it more real, allows you to deal with the emotions around it, process, and truly be stronger for it.
I FEEL your pain man. It [censored]. Its totally unfair. But don't get stuck in a victim mentality. You're learning amazing things now, and you're going to be a better man, partner, and person through all of this.
Re-read through Sandi's 37 points daily. It REALLY does help. Make it part of your morning, and nightly routine, and whenever you're feeling "off". Make sure to write down what you believe deep inside about yourself too. My list goes like this:
I AM:
Improved and improving daily!
Strong both as a man, a partner, and a father
Powerful, both in mind, body, and spirit
Emotionally Connected with myself, and those around me that are willing and open
A positive role model for my children, my family, and my friends
Honest, Trustworthy and in control of my emotions
Deserving of affection, from myself, and from others
Use it, just like the 37 points. Live it. Falter. Pick yourself up. And then continue.
It [censored] for us right now. But its going to get better in the future.
Thanks swabby! Good post. My resentment is not so much of a victim type. I don't get to feeling like that because of what is happening to me. I sometimes start actually disliking my wife when I think about what she is doing. I know that sounds bad. Something I need to work on for myself. I dislike that she thinks there is nothing wrong with what she is doing.
That i understand. The resentment. I feel it with my W as well with the continuance of her friendship with the OM and the belief that she's not doing anything wrong.
I think though that its similar. We have to let them come around to the reality on their own, while maintaining our boundary for ourselves.
You'll still feel bitter, unheard, and hurt she's not seeing it. Thats just a time thing. It will dull if you just keep your head up and stay firm with what YOU believe is right for you.
Love this one: "Don't spend time beating on a wall hoping to transform it into a door".
Okay V my friend, I am ready for the next step on our journey of working on ME!
oK Joe, i will chat away as much as I can.
The next bit is a little tougher because I would like you to go back to your list of 'bad behaviours' and ask we're any of these emotionally abuse to W from your stand point.?
And could W have thought they were and why would that be?
I need you to park whether you thought W was reacting or not or excusing. let us chat a little about this very cool. Somethings can be done in better ways, that's ok, you can address and change that. But are there things that you can feel guilty about doing that W might see as abusive.
I am going to ponder the resentment issue, as that implies a boundary infringement.
Joe, you are obviously enjoying the board and posting, how far are you into IC?
V
Thank You V. I will look at my list and get back to you. I will think hard about this and be totally honest. It is good to hear from you again.
I am trying to post some so that I can better understand some of these things. It also helps me to vent and not bottle things up. Are you referring to getting actual counseling? If you are, I have not found one yet. I am looking at trying to start early next month.
Okay V, here it goes.
I think me complaining about her not getting things done can be seen as emotional abuse. I am sure W thought it was because I never told her that she did anything good or thanked her for the little things she did do.
I know me telling her she can just leave when we got into bad arguments is emotional abuse. I know wife took it to be emotional abuse also. I am sure it hurt her and did not make her feel wanted or loved when this came out of my mouth.
I think me blaming her for our problems or problems with the kids is emotional abuse. I think my wife felt like it was emotional abuse also. I am sure it hurt her and made her not feel very good about herself.
I think me being selfish is emotional abuse. It does not make her feel loved and appreciated if I can't share things with her. It kind of belittles her in a way.
I also think the dirty looks I gave her are emotional abuse. I know it bothered her. She said I looked mean when I got angry or over reacted.
I think years of going through this type of behavior from me is emotional abuse. I am sure it damaged her self esteem and caused her years of hurt feelings.
Joe, your reflections are all good and I don't disagree these are not behaviors you have to be proud of or duplicate in your next R. But I disagree that this is all emotional abuse.
I am tired of that phrase. I don't know many men that claim to be emotionally abused. I don't say I've been emotionally abused, and I've been put through my share of pain.
I think the word "abuse" is very strong. There was a day when it was physical abuse. Yes, that's a black and white line, and a major one to cross. Somewhere along the way "emotional" abuse became a new age idea.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, nor am I naive enough to think that it's ONLY name calling or screaming. But by the standards above most of the relationships I know have some form of abuse in them.
I guess I just object to the strength of the word. I consider it a serious accusation against a man, like the word "rape". I am not a rapist, and would hate being called an "emotional rapist" as if they were on the same lines.
I have regrets about my behavior. I DID do things that were hurtful, negligent, passive aggressive, or controlling many times. I will honestly try my best to be a better person. But I don't consider myself abusive to the level of someone that endangered their spouses physical or mental well being.
Like you I admitted my flaws in my threads, and even MAGNIFIED them thinking the more honest I could be the better my chances of saving my M. What I've learned is that crucifying myself is just as unhealthy as denying my faults altogether.
I agree with Zeus. Whilst some of the behaviour isn't great (and great you're reflecting on that) it doesn't sound like emotional abuse either. Not that I know much about this area.
I can see if all of the above was daily and relentless, it would be pretty miserable to live with, and starts to look more like abuse.
To me abuse is when you are constantly undermining someone's wellbeing and confidence and so on. Or behaving from time to time in more severe ways. And doing that to gain some power or sense of wellbeing yourself.
Maybe read some more around this subject before you accept that you have been abusive.
Also, I think this is a continuum where at one end we have loving, supportive.......and at the other we have constantly humiliated, threatened and denigrated. Where on that dontinuum were you do you think?
Thank you both for your comments. I asked W a few months ago if she would please help me by expressing to me some of the things I have done that hurt her so I may work on these things. She would not do it. A few days later we had a talk and when she got mad( I remained calm) she shared a few of these things. The emotional abuse comment came from her when she was freaking out after I started my own cell phone plan and got off hers. I may have become defensive when this subject was brought up to me on this board, because I thought emotional abuse was more like what toots said. The things that I have acknowledged as my faults here did not occur daily or even weekly. These happened once in awhile.
On the other hand, my wife could see some of this as emotional abuse to HER. In which case I feel like I should acknowledge this so I don't create that feeling in her. Or anyone else for that matter. My W has had self esteem issues through most of our time together. I should have acknowledged that better and been more sensitive to that. One of my faults is never looking at things from someone else's point of view. For instance, wedding rings. I never wore one after our wedding day. Mostly because of my job. But on the days I was not working, I did not wear one because I did not like jewelry. But what if my W went to town without wearing her's? I really can't say anything. But now I started looking at it from her point of view. Maybe it makes her feel good that I wear it. She knows that I am showing people I am married. Before I only thought about my feelings about it.
I need a little advice! Or maybe just opinions! As you can see from my thread, I am working on myself and trying to handle things different with W. Last night after I told W my plans for the weekend, she came downstairs and gave me a check. And said she would give me one every week to get this bill paid off. I have been paying on a collection that was from one of her old business deals selling things. The reason I am paying it is because I gave her a couple checks a long time ago to buy these things to sell, but account got messed up from her customers bouncing checks. So the collection is under my name. I just want to make sure it gets cleared up, so I am paying it. I don't need her money to do it.
So my problem is, I don't want her money because I know where it comes from. To me, taking the money is like saying, "I am fine with taking money from your job, but not okay with you doing it". Kinda hypocritical. But if I don't take her money, I am not showing her I appreciate her trying to help pay the debt. Any advice is appreciated. I wanted to see what other thought.
I would take the money,
and pay off the bill faster or use it on some other debt.
If it gets to lawyers that stuff will all get split up anyways.
Joe
You have your answers Zues and Toots have both said what I wanted to say.
One small comment though, WW may see some of this as abuse such but I suggest to you that it is behaviour that need not be repeated, you acknowledge that and make the changes. Forgive yourself.
It requires change of course, and now you have three separateb views. I await Cat and her forthright views to balance us.
It takes courage to face this, Joe know that you have.
V
I would take the money,
and pay off the bill faster or use it on some other debt.
If it gets to lawyers that stuff will all get split up anyways.
It's WW debt and her money paying it off.
V
Agreed! Thank you V and thank you Cadet!!
Thank you V, Zues, Toots and Cadet for responding to these posts. I would also like Cat point of view. I will work hard to change these behaviors. V you have given me so much help and such a better way of looking at these things.
Interesting day today:) I had to wake up early to go to something for work. So had to tell W she would have to watch kids even though she worked all night. Since we don't talk or text much, I had not expected and texts when I got to town. Wrong! I got the text " when are you going to be home, I have to fill in for someone for work". I went about my day and at lunch with S, replied "don't know. Eating lunch with S". So I am assuming this is either a text to get under my skin or temp check text? Or she was nervous because I was going to town by myself. Of course when I did finally get home after doing my shopping, didn't say a word to me. Just finished her exercises and went to bed for her nap. She can be such a nice person sometimes!! LOL! Man the mood swings!!
Ever since I started GAL and detaching from her, she has begun to do the same thing!! It is weird!!
I am working on it. I am struggling with the best way to detach with my situation. Sometimes I think I am on the right track, sometimes not. I struggle to detach without ignoring W. Or without being cold.
Detatching is letting go of the outcome Joe. It is about being caring, loving, kind and letting others be, do, say as they are. Accepting them and their behaviour. Using your boundaries when what they do that which is unacceptable to you.
Cold and ignoring is not detatchment, cold is still affected by the outcome. Neutral is best. The so be it attitude, isn't that interesting!
If you are cold and ignoring then you are still affected. Perverse isn't it!
So let us ask a question of Joe. Select a behaviour of W (not a boundary infringement) which you would like to detatch. Something annoying but not a deal breaker.
What would detatching feel like, sound like, look like, what would Joe be doing instead?
Listening to music, eating ice cream, going for a run?
V
This detaching is something I need to work on. I may have misunderstood it some. I was focusing on waiting for her to start conversations, being scarce, doing my own thing. I also believe I was focusing to much on my W being WW. I may have had a "what you are doing is wrong attitude". I just felt like if I acted like a friend to her, I was not standing up for my boundary. It wasn't until I read what Sandi wrote to someone else about detaching, that I thought I might be doing it wrong.
Something annoying from W that I would like to detach from. I am having a hard time thinking of something. The only real things she is doing now that annoy me are the type of job she is doing and the amount of hours she spends doing it. The fact that she can never ask for time off or do anything with the family. I guess you could say, I have been detaching from her not doing much with the kids or all of us. I have tried to find things for the kids and I to do together. I have focused more attention to them.
When W ignores me, I find something with kids to do. I listen to music at night. I enjoy movies. I read self help books.
It is hard to think about any other things that are annoying right now. This job has taken over her whole life. She rarely leaves the house. She sleeps all the time. When she is suppose to be off work, she spends the whole time in her room writing blogs for her characters. I never see her really. She eats dinner and heads to her room to nap so she can work.
D11 birthday is at the end of the month. A company we deal with for work has a show on her birthday. They put us up in a hotel and have dinner and swimming in hot springs. The whole family can go. D11 really wants to go. It is like a mini vacation and they love to swim. W is stressing now because she works that night. She refuses to ask for the night off. As a matter of fact, she never asks for time off. So she thinks we should not sign up to go. Also seems angry at me because I told her she needs to figure out what she wants to do. I told her I thought we could all go together.
Joe
Finding things to do with the kids is detaching. It is letting go of WW joining you and letting her do her stuff.
Go with the kids to the weekender, have fun, if WW decides to go then ok, if not her loss. You guys have fun on D11 birthday. No fretting just decide and go.
"WW I have booked the weekender, it's fun for the kids, if you want to come along let me know , no hassle".
That is detatched, if she comes ok and if she does not ok. Detatched from the outcome, let W decide for W. You and the kids will have a great time, if anyone asks then "sadly WW has to work but hey it's great here and D11 is enjoying her birthday." Go have a terrific time and whilst you are there WW is losing out, be sad for that but detatched.
V
Thank You V!
So can I tell my W that exactly how you put it? Do I get to call her WW? LOL!
I was kinda thinking that was how I was going to handle it. But I do know W has to take off one night already next month for a surgery. So in a way, I can understand her reluctance to ask for another night off. This has always been a struggle dealing with her work. Not just because of the issue with the type of work, but how everyone has to change their plans because of her job. We have to make sure we are home by a certain time when we go to town. Have to leave school activities early.
I am planning to take the kids to do some fun things in the next few months. W can come or stay home. Her choice. I will not allow her job to affect us going and doing things. Sometimes I think she expects us to just hang around the house because she can't do something. Not going to happen.
I changed up my detaching method yesterday. I reread the detachment stuff on here. I have seen that I have been rather cold the past few weeks. I have talked to W. But not much. Have not started any conversations. But have answered her when she talks to me. I have looked her in the eye( well I guess side of the face). She won't look at me at all lately. I have not been mean, but have distanced myself.
Yesterday, I acknowledged her. Said hello and asked her what all was happening when I came home last night. I also talked to her some at lunch. She said one of her friends was asking her about how I would handle a coaching situation. Last night I did some fun things with kids. I talked alot with older S. I was just my normal happy self lately.
Got a text this morning that she is going to town and might be late coming home. Also was telling me that she is going to see her mom and dad in May for a few days and planning to take the kids to see them some time this summer. It is was a long text. It is the most she has texted to me since I got my own cell phone plan.
I do feel better about detaching like this. It feels different. But at least I am not coming off as a jerk.
That's really great detatchment Joe.
V
Thanks V
Well the trip on D birthday is not going to happen. D does not want to go without W. I understood. When I told W, she was relieved. She said it was going to be hard for her to take time off for her surgery and that. Plus she said it would be awkward! To me it was just a family trip. But whatever!
I have a feeling she is going to be heading home to help her mom sometime soon. Who knows how long she will be gone or if she will come back. Last night she actually talked to me about how her mom was doing and actually looked me in the eye. I listened. Later I sent her a text saying that I was sorry her mom was not doing well. She said she felt helpless because her mom can't do anything right now and she is not there to help her. I told her I can understand how she feels and that I am sure it is harder for her being this far away from her mom. I hope I validated her feelings okay. I never offered any advice.
There is a slight bit of fear with her going home to help her mom. Some of the girls she works with live close to the same area she grew up and also the guys number I found months ago was from that area. But I am LETTING GO! To be honest, I would not mind a break from the home drama. I'm sure my kids will take it hard. My youngest B gets upset when she goes to town. I have also decided that if she goes down there and does see someone else or anything of that nature, my M will be done. Like I have said all along, I have no actual proof, but if I ever find some than I will be moving on. But who knows, maybe she could go home and get a wake up call also. I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
I am sad you and the kids aren't going to a fun event. I do believe you should.
Joe, I am deeply suspicious that your WW is having a full blown A or is stating one.
Another thought occurred to me, I was sitting in a Gamanon meeting and one of the members described her H behaviour prior to discovering he was a compulsive gambler, secretive and computer locked. So this is very addicted style behaviour. The description made me think of Joe's WW.
V
V, thank you for thinking of me. Last night I struggled alot with what to do. I am reaching the point of talking to a attorney. She is addicted to everything she is doing right now and I feel it is time for me to move on from this destructive life. My biggest worry is how to pay for a attorney so I can fight for custody of my kids.
Last night I enforced another boundary. W has been becoming close friends with one of the single moms that works for the company she does. She was going to have this girls D and our D become pen pals. I told her that I am not comfortable with her giving out our address or any personal information to these other girls she works with. She is putting our children at risk and that is not okay with me. We don't know these people. I do NOT take chances with my kids. Of course she got defensive, but I said my peace. Than she ended the conversation with " I am still taking the kids out to see my mom and dad this summer".
She has a surgery coming up in a couple weeks. I think after that is over and she is healed, it is time for her to go. My kids will be hurt, but I can not live with this type of behavior and betrayal and resentment towards me. It is amazing the anger she has towards me some days. And I don't even hardly talk to her much.
Had a good night detaching from sitch last night with the kids. Played some in house mini golf. Than I woke up this morning and was very sad watching my S sleep and knowing what is coming. He has been acting out lately at home already.
I think W is going to be getting a see you later and have a good life letter soon!!
I am one of the believers in Intel and having a clear idea where I am legally, financially and emotionally.
This to me means interviewing Ls to find which one to work with, often the first interview is free of charge. Knowledge is power in these sitches. But keep this confidential to yourself. Instead of wondering, know what is needed, know what your L believes your position is.
It may be time to revisit boundaries, before reacting and going straight to D, have you really enforced your boundary? Why push the consequence before establishing and enforcing the boundary? On a 0-10 scale why go for no 10, when 3, 4, 5 etc have not yet been tried? That is like a newly qualified driver taking his car racing in Mons on the worlds fastest race track!
So Joe what is your boundary?
V
Another suggestion was brought up to me. I think Sandi talked about it once. I am also considering doing a family intervention.
V, I am working on my boundaries. The letter thing might be a better idea. I thought about writing a letter stating how I will not be in a open marriage, or don't want to be in a marriage with this type of behavior. I will acknowledge my faults and state that I am working on them. But time is running out and I am moving on with my life. If she wants to come along than this has to happen. If not than I wish her well and hope we can communicate well about our kids.
I am out of my depth with RobX letters. Starsky is your man on this if you can call him to your thread. I have no experience on it.
. Mozza Is quite expert on this too and Wonka of course.
RobX was a poster on here. I have not got the links to find it.
V
Joe,
A couple of questions here for you to consider:
1. Family intervention for what purpose? Who are the family members in your head for this so-called 'intervention'?
2. Can you please explain what prompted you to feel the need to write a letter to W?
3. How long have you been DBing?
One more question....
4. What do you hope to achieve by writing the letter?
Caught this comment:
I have also decided that if she goes down there and does see someone else or anything of that nature, my M will be done.
Is W having an A a deal breaker for you, Joe?
Responded to you on new thread about your other questions.
Yes W having an A is deal breaker for me. I have dealt with years of lies. An A will be the end. I am tired of living this kind of life and all the drama!!