Last thread:
Susana (6) - Feelin' Stronger Every Day Feel free to carry on pizza-related discussions here.
Had an opportunity to do a small 180 this morning. H and I were about to head out the door when I stopped to make a thermos of coffee and asked if he wanted one.
He said "no, there's no time to make coffee!" (not true, we had 10 minutes before we needed to leave) I had a total meltdown moment: NO ONE gets between me and my coffee in the morning.
I mumbled something incoherent and snarky about how I didn't care what he did but I would *not* be entering the day caffeine-deprived, and went into another room to gather myself for a moment and then came back and started to explain what had upset me. He interrupted me and said - "I think we're making a big deal out of something really small". At first I got even more angry because zomg! he interrupted me. But then I pulled myself out of it almost immediately and thought - this is ridiculous, do I really want to start a fight over a coffee? And instead we just had some light, pleasant chit chat on our walk to the train station and laughed instead.
I know how ridiculous this is but that sort of thing would have absolutely ruined our day before. I would have blown it way out of proportion and we would have argued all the way to the train. I wish I'd stopped myself at the point before I had to leave the room, but this is still progress.
On pizza:
Went to the grocery store over my lunch break and bought some Chianti, some pizza bases (btw those of you in the UK - highly recommend Crosta & Mollica pizza base, it's pre-baked in a wood fired oven and I think it's the closest you can get to making a restaurant-style pizza at home), fresh mozz and basil (mmm basil, my favourite herb!) and assorted toppings.
I'm working from home this afternoon and it is SO HARD not to make and eat the pizza now.
Willpower. Willpower. Willpower.
Good job...on STFU! It is a charm...really. Sometimes biting one's tongue is really taking it for the team. No?
Can't wait to hear about your pizza adventures, Susana.
Thanks Wonka! I'm so glad I shut up. One thing I've learned in my DB journey is I was making *myself* miserable with situations like that - I could have carried on being angry the whole way to the train, and what good would that have done? It would have ruined both his morning, and mine! Instead, I got to have a pleasant chat, and not stew in my own anger.
So...pizza was amazing, wine was good, company less so. Red wine always get me a bit down and moody, so maybe it wasn't the best choice of tipple. I don't know if it's the red wine or something else but I'm sort of in a 'why am I trying to save this M?' state of mind. But, I know by now this is likely a temporary mood and will pass.
H was a bit out of sorts all evening - was tired and stressed about money (he's always stressing about money). He seemed excited for the pizza but not very talkative.
No matter, I was excited about the pizza. And it was GOOD. I suggested watching Friends or some standup (laughter is good, right?) while we ate, he chose friends. Then after about an hour he said he wanted to put on Battlestar Galactica, which he's been watching. I said I'd watch it with him if he got me up to speed, but he was insistent there was no point in me watching, I wouldn't like it. etc. (how would he know if I've never seen it? I digress...)
So he started to retreat to watch it on his own and then last minute had a change of heart and said "actually let's watch standup together, do you want to?"
So I made us some ice cream sundaes and more wine (note: very strange combo, not very tasty) and we watched and laughed some more.
Then I got a text that my grandmother's ill and may have to go back into hospital so that took a more serious turn to the evening. The wine at that point didn't help and I got a bit teary and H held me. H not very good at validating though (clearly he has never read Wonka's validation cheat sheet) - he actually said to me "well, you don't know that she won't be alright"
I pulled myself together and we watched a little more standup and then he said he was tired and wanted to go to bed earlier than usual. He seemed a bit more upbeat and was joking with me while we got ready for bed and when he came to say good night he was very smiley and giving me googly eyes (in a non-sexual way).
But I just found myself thinking - what was the point of spending the evening with him if he barely spoke to me? I may as well have had the pizza on my own and then I would have had two pizzas to myself.
(Ok ok, maybe that would have been too much...)
I know it's just a mood and will likely change tomorrow. I'm also a bit disappointed because my friend cancelled my GAL tomorrow and now I'm at loose ends on what to do. Kind of feel like I shouldn't spend another night in with H. And I was looking forward to dressing up and seeing my friend, too!
Going to research alternative GAL now...
I love how you jump right back in the saddle!
Your thread is lovely and so positive, susana. I think you're rockin' it.
Thanks Train!
Nice to get positive feedback! I don't always feel 100% sure I'm on the right track but I do feel more and more confident, and positive, every day.
Alternative GAL will likely be a lecture at the local university. These are my go-to backup GAL plans (highly recommended). I discovered they have FREE lectures almost every night and you don't need to sign up, you just turn up. I have attended some really interesting ones and some that I never would have attended otherwise, but it's been good because I've learned about a variety of subjects that I knew nothing about before!
Well, H was very chirpy and positive this morning, making jokes and laughing a lot. He's up and down. Up and down. It's so weird being the calm and steady one while he's up and down. Total role reversal.
Will go to a lecture tonight for my GAL. Told H and he mumbled something about how he would rustle something up for dinner. I offered to make something when I get back (he's only got one dish in his repertoire and I don't really fancy it
plus I have ingredients for a curry I was planning to make this week) and he said "oh cool, let's make it together when you get back."
H *hates* cooking, I don't get the sudden interest in it recently!
PMA suffering a blow this morning. I think the wine was a bad idea. Since starting ADs I've noticed, in spite of my doctor saying it was ok to have a drink or two, that the next day I always feel quite down.
I got quite anxious earlier this morning thinking about my visa situation. H and I agreed at the beginning of January that once it came through we'd move out of the flat we're renting. We haven't spoken about it since, he hasn't even alluded to the flat (he has asked me twice if I had any news on the visa). I have no idea when the visa will come through, could be any time in the next few days to months, so there's just sort of this thought in the back of my mind constantly. It will mean S, likely no speaking to H again, quitting my job and taking a big financial cut but getting to go after my dream job. A huge amount of change, all at once. And it should be happy news, but instead H has made it into something difficult - and that makes me angry.
I said to my DB coach the other day I was getting a little frustrated I have no idea what's going on in H's head. I think she took it as me wanting to start an R talk, which I definitely don't. I guess I should count myself lucky he doesn't spew, I just feel like I have absolutely no idea what is going on in his head. He never complains, he never tells me how I hurt him, he never talks about a future together or apart. He just doesn't say anything about the future beyond next week. Nothing. DB coach said behaviours are more important than words anyway and I should monitor those, but sometimes I don't really know how or if I'm doing it right.
I don't know what brought on the sadness/anger this morning (ETA: I do know, the d@mned red wine!), but I found myself stewing in anger again this morning. I really need to work out how to move past the anger.
Right, enough borrowing trouble from the future. I need to stop ranting and get on with my day. Going to buy a huge caramel latte, I know it's not good to treat sadness with food but oh well, it works...
I guess I should count myself lucky he doesn't spew, I just feel like I have absolutely no idea what is going on in his head. He never complains, he never tells me how I hurt him, he never talks about a future together or apart. He just doesn't say anything about the future beyond next week. Nothing.
Susana, my H is a lot like this. I have no idea what he's thinking. But I'm grateful he's being a decent guy, good dad, financially responsible. That goes a long way.
Rppfl - yes, my H too is being a decent guy and overall very nice to me, I guess it's what keeps me DBing. I don't know I could find the inner strength if he were spewing and being a jerk to me all the time.
Going to buy a huge caramel latte...
Those usually help my problems too!
Don't underestimate the power of caramel for making clouds go away.
Take care.
Mmm caramel
thanks burger.
The caramel latte made a big difference, and my colleague got me a wrap for lunch which was great and nice of her. Feeling a little more upbeat now. Trying to keep my PMA up!
Man, if red wine is bad for our PMA, then I'm totally f&$@ed.
Starsky
Lol! Don't worry Starsky, I'm sure it's completely individual.
Me, I'm more of a gin & tonic kinda gal.
Bit of potential tricky situation tomorrow. H is heading off on a snowboarding holiday in the morning. My friend B (who I went to visit last week) and I are working on a creative project together and he's coming over tomorrow to work on it. B told me in no uncertain terms he doesn't want to see H, he's mad about the way H has treated me and might not control his mouth. I told him to come after H leaves, but H wasn't 100% sure of when he'll leave so there's a possibility they might bump into each other.
To complicate things further, my GFs are convinced that H is jealous of B and me. When I told H that B would be coming tomorrow, he didn't really say anything, he just went silent. H has never been a jealous type. But I wouldn't be surprised if he did get jealous of B. B is very good looking (case in point: a mutual friend invited him to her birthday and told me afterwards all her GFs said "who is that B? how do you know him? And is he a model?"). And B fairly obviously had a thing for me, some time ago, before H and I were together.
Now, I know I shouldn't (nor do I want to) feel responsible for their actions, but I am a little worried if they end up in the house at the same time B will have a go at H. Is there anything to do to diffuse the situation? Or should I just let it run its course if it's going to? I'm assuming the latter because when in doubt, do nothing?
Susana,
I personally wouldn't bring that kind of dynamic to the house, especially if it might make your H uncomfortable and your friend would "not control his mouth."
The way I look at it is this: I would never bring a situation into my home that would cause any embarrassment, hurt feelings, negativity, or situations that could be harmful to my relationship.
Case in point -- I have a good friend who I went to both HS and College with that I dated on and off (nothing serious) but there was always chemistry there. Once things became serious with my H, I didn't put myself in a situation that could be misconstrued in anyway. Good friend came over a few times before my wedding -- to go running with me while I was out of work and H was at work. I always met him on the front porch -- never had him inside. When he came back from the Army, I met him in a public place and had drinks. At no point in time did my H ever had a problem with this (and he knew this history between us), but I avoided situations like the plague.
Me personally, I wouldn't have B over, because a)B has mentioned he can control his mouth and honestly, no one needs to be getting into the middle of your sitch, b)having him come over after H leaves looks like (imo) that you're hiding something from him. C) if B has had a thing for you before, who is to say he won't try and take advantage of the situation and D) it's just a bad idea.
Could ya'll not meet in a coffee shop or public place to avoid a sticky situation? That's just me.
Will there be anyone else coming over with him?
If he's that good-looking, and he's got a "thing" for you, is it REALLY a good idea to be alone with him at this delicate stage?
It sounds like there's potential for some problems with the plan. Could you:
a) meet him somewhere else public? (best option IMHO)
b) let him come to the house, but let him know it won't help your sitch if he's in any way funny with H..
c) send him up to me instead
See, I thought about whether it was a bad idea to have him over to the house full stop because I think it would be really bad if he confronted H, but then I thought "I have to GAL and not let H affect my plans/my life" etc. etc. I end up thinking myself in circles sometimes with this sitch!
I don't think there's any danger with B, the "thing" he had for me was in the past before I was with H (AFAIK) and he has a GF (although I guess I shouldn't be so naive to think that would stop him). And H has never given any indication of being jealous (of him or anyone else), it was my GFs saying they thought he was. But they could be right which is where I got myself thinking I shouldn't have him over.
Oh, the circular thinking, it's endless!
Unfortunately it has to be in the house because the project involves cooking.
Perhaps I better see if someone else can join us.
That's a good idea - neutralise the danger. And you can just say to your friend - hey, I invited X along too...
Forgot to add - I did tell B after he said that he better control his mouth if he sees H (he doesn't know the full sitch anyway - I'm following DR advice and not telling everyone about the sitch - but he knows I want to reconcile if possible).
Right, but then do I tell H that I've invited X, too? I am getting myself confused here. If I try to assuage any jealousy that he may be feeling (which I have no reason to believe anyway) isn't that kind of pursuit? And I'm not trying to make him feel jealous so it's his problem if he feels that right?
I wouldn't tell him. Not my job to raise my hand and remind the teacher to collect the homework.
Alright, thank you! That's what I thought but my brain temporarily went into a tailspin.
See, I know how I would handle hanging out with another man when I'm in my M but now I don't know how to deal with it! None of my previous methods would work here (bringing H along, asking if he's ok with it, texting him while I am with the other guy etc). The whole thing just got my brain twisted into a pretzel.
Should be ok now - i reiterated my position and B has promised not to say anything to H.
Now I just need to get a grip on the anger and resentment I'm still stewing in.
Argh! Now H has announced to me that he's probably going to leave 2-3 hours later than he'd originally said (than what he told me this afternoon). So he and B and X (my GF I've now invited) are probably going to be here at the same time and I'll have to hope B sticks to his word. To make matters worse X is also quite unhappy with H because of sitch. She wouldn't say anything and I'm sure she'll be unfailingly polite but it might be quite awkward.
Hi Susana - I wouldn't worry too much. You have your plans and H has his....
Just make the most of having your friends over and enjoy yourselves!
Thanks. I'm sure I will enjoy my friends' company. I'm actually more worried about them feeling awkward than H (right now, I'm feeling a lot of anger toward him, so I'm not concerned about his reaction).
Does anyone have any tips or resources on managing anger and resentment?
I find it comes and goes and usually only lasts for a few hours for me, but my recent bout of resentment has lasted since yesterday, and this is the angriest I've been.
I actually felt my stomach turn and felt hatred when I looked at H earlier. Not good. And I don't know why, he was actually being quite nice tonight and was helping me cook (which he hates doing) and singing me a song he made up about the food we were cooking.
S, congrats on all your positivity and STEADY moves forward.
The advice I get - sit with your feelings, be kind to them, ask yourself where they are really coming from. Then be kind to yourself. Digestion complete.
Susana,
Maybe I'll just invite myself to that little party and enjoy the foods! Probably will strategically place my sharp elbow on B's body...ohhhhhhh.
Hi Susana
If you want to release some anger, you could try rolling up a newspaper and bashing some pillows on the bed - when H isn't around obviously! I have done that a few times for 5 minutes or so and did feel a sense of release. I've also read that slamming bottles in the bottle bank or some aggressive exercise - running, punch bag etc can help. Also primal screams are good - in the car at night driving alone...
Also, I think it's natural to look at your H and feel some hatred - you're going through a lot right now...you're doing really well though :-)
Susana,
Maybe I'll just invite myself to that little party and enjoy the foods! Probably will strategically place my sharp elbow on B's body...ohhhhhhh.
Hahaha. You're welcome to the party (in fact, let's make it a DB party, all welcome!
Definitely neutralise the danger this way), just make sure he doesn't realise it was you!
Oh man, it was hatred central here this morning. So glad H has gone on his ski trip until Monday, it will give me plenty of time to process my feelings, punch some pillows, etc.
It took everything in me not to show him any anger this morning. Everything he did made me angry. And he wasn't even doing anything "wrong", it just all made me mad.
I asked him if he still wanted to go for pizza next week and when (I'm a busy gal and my schedule's starting to fill up) and he hemmed and hawed "oh but I don't know if I'll have the money, I'm meeting N [his former boss] for dinner and my brother's coming. Maybe we shouldn't go. Oh but the pizza is cheap. Ok let's go actually." I wanted to punch him.
I gave him a car magazine I picked up at the grocery store I thought he might want to read on the plane (I bought myself a magazine as a treat so thought I'd get him a treat too) and he acted like I'd given him a bar of gold. He was giddy with excitement and gave me a huge hug. A freaking magazine. I wanted to punch him.
He asked me to help carry his ski crap outside with him when he left for the plane. He didn't even thank me, and he gave me a hug and goodbye almost as an afterthought. I wanted to punch him.
Ok so I've done a little punching of the pillows (thanks Toots!) and now I'm sitting with my feelings (thanks Z!) and thinking about why I feel this way, I'll follow with a primal scream later.
I think I am p!ssed off that H is acting so nonchalant. It seems weird because it's like the more we get along the more angry I get, but I think it makes sense because it has to do with him acting so carefree and casual. I get why *I* am acting carefree and happy, but why him? It's like he doesn't give a sh!t about our M at all. I know it's going to sound weird but a part of me almost wishes that there were some spew (I know if it came down to it I'd regret that though) just because then I could go "well, he's angry and resentful and can't get past that". But nothing? Just makes it feel to me like our M means so little to him he doesn't have to give it a second thought, just tossed it away and doesn't think a thing of it. Now logically, I know this might not be true - I have no idea what's going on in his head and it's possible his head is full of anger, resentment and/or confusion, and I can't assume it means little to him. But that's certainly how it makes me feel.
Add to that I am PMSing (yeah not good for the anger front!) and exhausted. DBing is hard work! I feel like I have to always be "on"- have to look good, smell good, keep up the PMA, be mysterious... Last night I wanted nothing more than to come home, get in my pyjamas, have a cup of tea and a bar of chocolate and relax (really, I wanted a cuddle more than anything but obviously knew *that* was never going to happen!). Instead I was trying to be all mysterious and stay in the sexy clothes, and eventually I just gave in and put on the comfy pyjamas and curled up on the sofa. I can't be on all the time. It was just too much.
And then, I don't know if it's down to the resentment and frustration or what - but I started to doubt my 180s earlier. H gave me so little information about what upset him, and I can't tell if he's reacting to my 180s (I don't know how to tell if he is, because he doesn't say anything - and my DB coach said to watch for behaviours not words but I don't know what behaviours I'm looking for arghhh), that I don't even know if I'm addressing the underlying issues or not. Then I ended up thinking in a circle and forced myself to stop but that's still in the back of my head. Are there some underlying issues i'm missing? Am I addressing the right things with my 180s?
H's ski trip could not have come at a better time, and I thank my lucky stars for that. I can hit my pillows to my heart's content.
And hopefully be in a better frame of mind come Monday.
I am *really* happy I was able to go last night and this morning without saying or doing something I'd regret, and keep my anger and resentment in check. I think this is a huge testament to DBing and all you great folks on this site that have helped me get to this point. Thank you DB friends!!
Hi Susana
Sorry it was tough! It's good that you get to have a little break and can punch pillows in your PJ's as much as you like.
You seem to be doing lots of mind reading about H 'not caring' about the M. That's unlikely, and it probably doesn't help your state of mind to be thinking about it. As you say, having PMS probably doesn't help!
The good thing is - you made it through without a meltdown. Now, enjoy some well-deserved down time this weekend :-)
Susana,
Major mind reading right there. Chill...
H is doing some really positive stuff. Yeah, he is not acting like a Romeo to your Juliet at the moment. Actually, your sitch has improved over the past few weeks and I think you are being impatient with how slow this is moving to your taste. Right?
I think I am p!ssed off that H is acting so nonchalant. It seems weird because it's like the more we get along the more angry I get, but I think it makes sense because it has to do with him acting so carefree and casual.
Try not to over think or use logic with his actions. Its hard, but you really don't know what hes thinking. There could be a million reasons for the way he acts, or appears to act. Trying to figure it out will just make you crazy. Remember, hes the one being irrational and his actions wont make sense to you. Keep up the great work.
Susana,
Major mind reading right there. Chill...
H is doing some really positive stuff. Yeah, he is not acting like a Romeo to your Juliet at the moment. Actually, your sitch has improved over the past few weeks and I think you are being impatient with how slow this is moving to your taste. Right?
CHILLLLAAAAXXX . . . .
You guys are right. Thanks for being my voice of reason yet again!
I *know* logically I can't have any clue what's going on in his head and thinking he doesn't care is mindreading. I also know that other things could be going on in there that he's not saying - anger, resentment, confusion, any myriad of things. Logically, I know this, but my emotions are reacting otherwise. (Good thing DBing is about not acting on emotions!)
I am so happy I didn't have a meltdown. I definitely would not have been able to not react to my anger in the past, and H would have had to bear the brunt of my bad mood. I honestly don't think I even realised, pre DB, that it was POSSIBLE to be this angry and not react. Wow!
Actually, your sitch has improved over the past few weeks and I think you are being impatient with how slow this is moving to your taste. Right?
Yes, true, good point, I am getting impatient. I guess there's also the pessimistic part of me (and I have always been pessimistic, but one of my life goals is to be more optimistic) that wonders whether it is improving at all. I guess there is just this part of me going "hmm, I feel like the sitch has been improving, am I imagining things?"
PMS is SO not helpful right now. But Toots, I am happily in my PJ's and going to enjoy some downtime tonight. :-) Easy night in - some leftovers, some chocolate and some sitcoms (and maybe I'll make myself some stovetop popcorn in a bit). Yay!
H texted me from the airport to say thank you for the leftover curry he took (not sure why as he helped make it too!) and I just responded with a brief message wishing him a good trip. Not going to text him during his trip so I think we will have a few days of NC which frankly should be good for my chilling out efforts.
You're doing awesome, friend. Truly.
I'm going to offer additional mind reading for balance:
What if your H is considering getting back in your M? And is happy and nonchalant thinking you guys are S, dating, and he has that room to consider what he's doing? Really, when was the last time he mentioned D?
I know this is a pointless exercise, but since I know you can't stop yourself from trying to figure it out
- might as well practice some of that optimism.
I smiled reading your punch-him scenarios. Lol. It's SO honest and beautiful and it's simply awesome you just recognized those feelings and didn't let them rick you. Congrats.
Thanks Z. Man, I do not feel like I'm doing awesome sometimes - especially today, but I'll update on that in a minute. Think optimistically about what might be in my H's mind? Ha!
Good point though, if I'm mind reading I could mind read in a positive way as well as negative.
Oh - and he hasn't brought up D (or moving out for that matter) since mid January when we quit MC. I'd already stopped R talks but MC (in addition to not being very M friendly) asked in *every* session "so are you still definitely decided on D?" (ugh) And every time he said yes, he was 100% certain (sometimes saying he was *more certain*). We haven't had a single R talk since then, but I don't want to think this means he could be reconsidering (although I'll admit there's a part of me that hopes that) because it's more likely he just doesn't want confrontation.
So, I was really irresponsible today, and called in sick to work and took a trip down to the seaside. Totally irresponsible but it was only one day, and it was a big boost to my mood.
I woke up feeling very down - so down I couldn't drag myself out of bed. Not just angry and resentful but more sad about my sitch. Lots of memories floating through my head today for some reason. I ended up calling in sick and moping around the house for awhile.
I had this overwhelming urge to run. I kept having fantasies about packing up all my stuff and leaving before H gets back from his ski trip, and never seeing him again. What's with this urge to run away? Is it a normal part of the process?
Eventually I shook myself (mentally) and I said to myself - "alright Susana, what good is this doing? Are you just going to spend the whole day miserable? You have the whole world open to you, and you can run away - at least for a little bit. If you could be anywhere right now, where would it be?" And I thought what I'd like most would be to sit by the ocean. So I got on a train and went down to the sea. I find the ocean always re-centers me, anyone else find this?
I also ended up looking at flats while I was there (not actual viewings, just online and I walked around and looked at the outsides of some). One of my big fears about S/D (apart from destroying my M obviously) is about where I'll live. There's no way I can afford even a tiny studio in our current area. When I was down by the sea today I started thinking about relocating. Maybe a fresh start would be good, and I'd love to live by the sea. Found an amazing place that's within my budget, bigger than our current flat, and was absolutely beautiful - only 15 minutes from the beach, a beautiful old house with a huge kitchen, a nice patio and a gorgeous cast iron Victorian fireplace! I walked around the area trying to imagine myself living there. I honestly don't know if I'd like it there. But, it was the first time I got even a glimpse of a life without H that wasn't just OK/scraping by, but actually might be better. That was a bittersweet moment.
I found this song (thanks to another song by the artist Vanilla posted in Zelda's thread) and thought it was very DB appropriate
Rumer - You Just Don't Know People (video) "Listen to me, if you wanna be free
You gotta let it go
Just let it go
‘Cause people can stab you in the back
Right out of the blue
No, you just don’t know people
Or what they’re gonna do
You can’t control
You can’t keep hold of anything in this world, so
Take a little walk in the sunshine
Count 1, 2, 3
Baby, stay with me
Take a little walk in the sunshine
And listen to your heartbeat..."
I had this overwhelming urge to run. I kept having fantasies about packing up all my stuff and leaving before H gets back from his ski trip, and never seeing him again. What's with this urge to run away? Is it a normal part of the process?
It has been for me. I'm 7 1/2 years post-bomb, and more than 6 years since full reconciliation, and I *still* get it sometimes. Sometimes it's after we've had a fight, or some other trigger, but yeah -- it's still there. I think it always will be, at some level.
Starsky
I had this overwhelming urge to run. I kept having fantasies about packing up all my stuff and leaving before H gets back from his ski trip, and never seeing him again. What's with this urge to run away? Is it a normal part of the process?
It has been for me. I'm 7 1/2 years post-bomb, and more than 6 years since full reconciliation, and I *still* get it sometimes. Sometimes it's after we've had a fight, or some other trigger, but yeah -- it's still there. I think it always will be, at some level.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky. Interesting. It's comforting to know it's normal but a little frightening to know it lasts forever. Guess it just goes to show why we shouldn't act on just emotions!
I ran at BD. I think it's the fight or flee response that kicks in. I still get a flee response now when H and I are in touch....
Sorry to hijack, but Starsky, if you get chance to stop by my thread & advise, I'd be grateful. Things are at a critical place between H and me.
Sorry Susana - hijack over!
It's comforting to know it's normal but a little frightening to know it lasts forever. Guess it just goes to show why we shouldn't act on just emotions!
Yeah, well that -- and opposable thumbs -- is what separates us from the lesser apes, I always say.
Susana, when I was coming back from my trip to New York, I thought about staying on the train until the end and finding a new life for myself. I agree with everyone else about it being normal. I totally understand how tired you are.
On the up side, you are an amazing person that has already made a difference to others on here, and I can always count on you to give me a laugh. I wish I could write as well as you about my sitch, but I know it's more that I'm just not ready to. Keep doing the incredible work and make a few pizzas for us all tonight!
Thanks Eirinn, your comment really cheered me up!
I'm so happy to offer as much help and laughter as I can.
I will eat some pizzas in your honor, and I'm going to relax tonight! I am tired, need to give myself a break this weekend while H is away!
I think I'm just a point where I'm questioning whether I really want to save my M, whether it's worth saving. I would have said I had a very good M but now I question whether that was real... But, I'm going to sit with these feelings awhile. I know by now not to act on emotions (and how changeable they are)!
I think it's only natural to question whether it's really worth it....probably something we all do from time to time. And I guess only time will tell if it is truly worth it.
Certainly from sitches on here, feelings can change significantly, so it's always worth just biding your time and telling yourself you'll stand for another 3 months and then review etc. You get to decide ultimately!
Enjoy your pizza!
Yes, definitely not making any decisions. It's only been rolling around in my mind consistently for the last few days (and on and off since BD), and I know my feelings change a lot day to day. I think it's just hard to sustain yourself (well, for me anyway, I am happy with the changes I'm making but it *is* a lot of work!). And I am finding it hard recently to keep loving H, when my love tank's getting emptier and emptier, and that in turn makes me more tired.
But like I said, feelings change a lot. I might feel completely different tomorrow, or next week. Learning not to react to my feelings has been huge for me!
Hi susana, I've been reading you latest thread and you seem like a strong person to me and you are making the best of a diffilcult situation whilst and your H seems lost, wandering around in the wilderness not know what to do.
I can certainly relate to wondering whether to keep it up any longer. I just found proof the my WAW is having a PA and it's knocked me right back down again.
If you're anywhere near me, I'll defo come round for pizza and chianti :-)
Thanks Old Dog. H is lost, I read somewhere on the forums "you don't want to see what's in WAS's mind - it's messy in there" - seems apt! (Although I do get curious what's in there.)
Oh man, that sounds really difficult. ((())) Come round for some chianti to cheer you up!
I wonder - if seriously exploring alternate lives, new opportunities - if that doesn't give us a stronger look at our sitch, in a good way. It could be the important thing that says to you that these are all choices and you are in control. Knowing there are choices, hope and you'll be ok is a huge fount of strength, no? The kind of anti-desperate strength that attracts anyone into your life.
"Yes, definitely not making any decisions. It's only been rolling around in my mind consistently for the last few days (and on and off since BD), and I know my feelings change a lot day to day. I think it's just hard to sustain yourself (well, for me anyway, I am happy with the changes I'm making but it *is* a lot of work!). And I am finding it hard recently to keep loving H, when my love tank's getting emptier and emptier, and that in turn makes me more tired."
I think all of the above is about attachment (IMHO anyway.) Working towards greater detachment will help. Your GALing is often linked to what H may be thinking etc, which is pretty exhausting. If you can work towards a place where your GAL and improvements are genuinely for you, and it doesn't really matter what H thinks, it gets a whole lot better so they say on these boards.
"Yes, definitely not making any decisions. It's only been rolling around in my mind consistently for the last few days (and on and off since BD), and I know my feelings change a lot day to day. I think it's just hard to sustain yourself (well, for me anyway, I am happy with the changes I'm making but it *is* a lot of work!). And I am finding it hard recently to keep loving H, when my love tank's getting emptier and emptier, and that in turn makes me more tired."
I think all of the above is about attachment (IMHO anyway.) Working towards greater detachment will help. Your GALing is often linked to what H may be thinking etc, which is pretty exhausting. If you can work towards a place where your GAL and improvements are genuinely for you, and it doesn't really matter what H thinks, it gets a whole lot better so they say on these boards.
I've been reading some stuff on detachment recently. The threads seem to say that detachment happens naturally over time and you can't consciously decide to do it. (Argh!) Where I get confused is how you can lovingly detach. Recently I've felt more detached but I think I am confusing anger with detaching. I don't quite understand yet how you can love, and detach.
Yes, I think that is exhausting. My improvements are for me (I don't even really know what his complaints are) but my GAL is linked to H in a weird way. My GAL activities are things I would do anyway but the frequency is determined by him - either because we are trying to out-GAL each other
or because I know he's going to be home and I want to avoid him or because I don't want to seem boring and show I have an exciting life. I think it's probably a mix of good and bad, because on the one hand it forces me to get out and GAL and not mope about, but on the other it *does* get exhausting because sometimes I want time at home alone to recharge my batteries.
I woke up in a dark place. I haven't cried so much since BD. Sorry for the rambling/rant that will follow but I'm going to try to make sense of all the thoughts in my brain.
It's been 3 months since BD, and I'm still not sure I fully understand the reasons that led to it. I don't think I ever will, and most days I stop myself thinking about it because I know it won't get me anywhere dwelling on the past. But these last few days I can't stop myself.
In the dark days following BD, I was completely broken. I spewed a lot, and H took it. He never spewed. He accepted all my spew and apologised over and over and took all the blame. In one of my darkest hours, I told him I wished I'd never met him, that our relationship had only served to enforce all our biggest fears, that we hadn't moved past those or grown because we were smack dab in front of those fears and now he wanted to run. That I'd been happy being single before I met him. I'd led a happy life and then he came along and I had my doubts but he convinced me to be with him. He dragged me down this path and then dropped me. (Sometimes I think he thought I didn't want to be with him, and would be relieved after BD, and was surprised I wasn't.) He took it all, he took all the blame, he apologised and he cried and held me. He cried more than me in those first days. Every time I tried to start a calm discussion, he'd burst out crying. Then I'd cry and we'd cry on each other.
I spent weeks trying to work out when things had gone wrong. In my dark times, I questioned H repeatedly. He'd say he felt unhappy for a few months. Then he'd say he was happy most of the time, and only thought he didn't want to be together when we were having an argument. I didn't know not to believe anything he said, and confused myself more and more.
But even now, I don't feel I can pinpoint things going wrong. I see others on other threads going "oh, so that's what WAS meant when he/she said XYZ. He was saying he was unhappy but I just didn't listen". But with my H, he just never said. Ever. I know there are things both of us did wrong, and there are things I want to work on, but still, there was never a time pre-BD where I suspected or could tell he was unhappy, or in retrospect can see he was. He just never said a thing. So I have no idea whether:
-He was unhappy throughout our entire M and was lying about his happiness the whole time
-He was only unhappy at the end of our M (and was lying)
-He was actually in denial to himself and didn't realise he was unhappy until BD (this is what he claims)
So now I find myself questioning reconciling. Do I really want a new M with this man? This man who either lies about his happiness for months or years, or who is so out of touch with his own feelings he doesn't realise he's unhappy? Because I was really happy, but was this M and was this H even real? Was my happiness all founded on illusions? Who is he?!
I feel so much hatred right now it's overwhelming and terrifying. I still can't stop crying and that makes me even more angry. I just want to run far, far away. Or for him never to come back from his ski trip.
The fact that he's being so nice to me, and seems to be drawing closer, I think is confusing me, and making me question things. I think (probably like others) I went into DB thinking I wanted to save my M, and get my old M back, when clearly it's dead. Now, I've known that intellectually all along, but I think it didn't really hit me until recently. Yes, it's dead, and if I R, it will be a *new M* with H. And so the question is - do I want a new M with this man, what would that look like and who is this man? And that's what terrifies me. Because I actually thought our old M was pretty d@mn good, but apparently he didn't but never told me that. So is there a point in a new M with him at all? I wonder if I know H at all.
Perhaps I should look at it as - now I need to get to know H, since apparently I didn't know him before (and he says he didn't feel like/act like himself in our M), so I should approach it with an attitude of curiosity and get to know him and decide if I want a new M with this new H. But with so much anger and hatred, that is hard to do. It would be much easier to run away...
I wonder - if seriously exploring alternate lives, new opportunities - if that doesn't give us a stronger look at our sitch, in a good way. It could be the important thing that says to you that these are all choices and you are in control. Knowing there are choices, hope and you'll be ok is a huge fount of strength, no? The kind of anti-desperate strength that attracts anyone into your life.
I think it definitely makes sense that it would. I have tried in the past to think through alternate lives but up until now I have looked at it and thought "eh it would be OK but not as good as my old life" - and then got upset. It wasn't until yesterday that I saw a possibility of a better, happier new life. (But then it's made me think - if I could have a better, happier life why not just do that and walk away from H?)
Hi Susana, sorry you're having a tough day. I've also had the whole - did I ever really know you - thing. What I've read (and I don't wish to generalise) is that men in particular tend to find it hard to process and then verbalise their feelings. Add into that people-pleasing tendencies, and you have a toxic mix. Someone who has unmet needs, but may not quite understand these and finds it hard to put them into words. And because of being a people-pleaser appears okay.
The problem with unmet needs that aren't expressed is the unhappiness tends to grow. I knew my H was feeling somewhat unhappy before he 'checked out' of the M - but I had no idea it was linked to our R. He said it was mainly to do with work. Even after I discovered his EA, he said our R was 'perfect.' A lot of this is typical, and we may want to go back to that comment of 'mess inside WAS heads' here. It may not be a good use of your mind to try and figure all this out!
In terms of the detachment. I think it is a happy combination of feeling compassionate towards your WAS and being more of an 'observer' than participant in their drama. I feel I'm getting there more now. And not seeing H makes it easier to feel detached I'm sure. I think it also means being less 'attached' to the outcome of reconciliation and truly accepting you will be okay either together or apart. V describes it as being more 'attached' to your own life, so that your life with H becomes rather less central. I think time is a factor, and I think GAL helps, along with the work we do on ourselves as the sitch rumbles along.
Hope your day is improving....the sun is shining here!
Hi T, yes I suppose the people-pleasing tendencies don't help, do they?
My H seemed happy leading up to BD, although I do wonder if sometimes because I was very down and depressed about work, if I didn't see he wasn't happy because i was in a fog. But I did genuinely think he was happy, he'd just started his dream job, he seemed very happy in our M, we did lots of fun activities together and he constantly said how he was so happy with his life, so lucky, etc. I really never questioned his happiness. I had a conversation with a friend of his a week or two before the bomb, who drunkenly told me H was the happiest he'd ever seen him, and H was so happy with me, etc. etc. So his friends also seemed to think he was happy with our M. The only 'clue' I can think of is a couple of months before BD H and I were cuddling one day and he said to me "I felt really disconnected from you the last few days, did you feel it too?" And i said yes, and asked why he thought it was, and he said he wasn't sure. I wasn't either. We just felt far apart. But then 3 days later he said "I feel back to normal again, and re-connected, do you?" (And I did.) And we talked about why it had happened but neither of us were sure, and it didn't seem to matter as things felt 'normal' again, and I assumed it was just a normal period of growing apart and together again.
"I think it is a happy combination of feeling compassionate towards your WAS and being more of an 'observer' than participant in their drama." That makes sense. Not feeling much compassion atm though.
I know I will be okay either way, because I was very happy in my life before H (I really loved being single), so as long as I re-connect with that I will be happy, maybe even happier. I guess what I'm not so sure about is being happy with someone else. Prior to meeting H I didn't want to be in a relationship at all, I was so happy being single. And now, I know I can enjoy being in a relationship, but I also wonder if it was all a lie - and I find myself questioning how I can be happy in any future one. I think I will just question whether they are really happy - especially if it's a male tendency not to say. But then, I have trust issues, and this whole sitch has just massively reinforced those. (I do think it must be a case of creating what you fear.) I think I will question future Mr. Susana's commitment and happiness, as well as my own ability to tell whether he's happy. I also have a fear that because I got used to living with a people pleaser, any future relationship I have will prove dissatisfactory in comparison, because they won't just go along with everything I want, and I've become accustomed to being with someone who just does whatever I want and living as I want. Logically I know that's not healthy, and I don't want someone to just lie and say they agree with me when they don't - but then I fear I've grown used to that and anyone else I end up with will just seem ornery. If that makes sense.
I just feel so weak and pathetic right now. Every time I try and force myself to stop crying and leave the house and enjoy the sunshine, I start crying again and can't stop. This is so pathetic. I feel like a failure as a DBer and a person. I don't even know what I'm crying about! I'm mourning something that's already gone, that I don't even know if I want (or maybe I'm mourning that I don't know if I want him any more?). My friend cancelled our plans but I still want to go out for a walk, and I was going to go shopping but I can't seem to stop crying and I feel weak even writing this.
I have never been very comfortable with limbo situations (who is?) but I let my anxiety get the better of me in many limbo situations. The last time I applied for a visa (this was before i was with H) I had a huge problem with the anxiety and my IC wasn't very helpful with it. I didn't realise how bad it was until I found myself wandering panic-stricken around unfamiliar areas of the city in the middle of the night because it was the only way I knew how to deal with the anxiety (dangerous as it was). But then I got the visa so I tucked that into the back of my mind.
Then, I had to reapply over this winter and I was in the midst of a major meltdown about my visa and job limbo when H dropped the bomb. BD distracted me from that and now it's coming back into focus and I'm left looking at my life and realising I am in limbo in several areas - my job, my visa and whether I stay in the country, my living situation. What I hate about limbo is feeling like I have no control (yes, back to my desire for control) and no choice. Knowing that I'm not happy with an aspect of my life (like my job) but am unable to change it. Maybe this is the universe's way of forcing me to become more comfortable with limbo, and lack of control. Well played, universe, well played. But not very nice.
I know I have choices, I do. But man, none of them have good consequences.
So I have no idea whether:
-He was actually in denial to himself and didn't realise he was unhappy until BD (this is what he claims)
If you examine depression, part of it is denial.
So yes he has always been unhappy but has no clue how to
get out of his depression and thinks that it is anyone elses fault other than his own.
You being a possible candidate in that pool.
You didnt break him and can not fix him.
Study more about depression and some of this will make more sense.
What I hate about limbo is feeling like I have no control (yes, back to my desire for control) and no choice. Knowing that I'm not happy with an aspect of my life (like my job) but am unable to change it. Maybe this is the universe's way of forcing me to become more comfortable with limbo, and lack of control. Well played, universe, well played. But not very nice. wink
I know I have choices, I do. But man, none of them have good consequences.
I don't buy any of this.
You
do have control. You have
complete control over what
you do next.
If you don't like your job, start looking for a new one. If that takes a skills upgrade, then get on it. You want control? Then start controlling how you feel about yourself. Nobody is forcing you to stay in limbo. You are only in limbo so long as you let others, or yourself, hold you back.
I urge you, do not wander into the "woe is me, I'm a victim of the universe" territory. I've watched my WAW in there for over a year now and it is no way to look at life.
If all of this misery we experience can teach us anything, it is this: We are each responsible for ourselves - our happiness, our comfort, our morals, our ability to be at peace with ourselves. We each own and control that. If you want something, go for it, in a way that you can live with. Don't wait for someone else to ask if you need something. If you're heading in the wrong direction, change course.
The decision to be in limbo is completely yours. Figure out where you want to be and take the first step. You will quickly find that any progress in the right direction can be very inspiring.
W
So I have no idea whether:
-He was actually in denial to himself and didn't realise he was unhappy until BD (this is what he claims)
If you examine depression, part of it is denial.
So yes he has always been unhappy but has no clue how to
get out of his depression and thinks that it is anyone elses fault other than his own.
You being a possible candidate in that pool.
You didnt break him and can not fix him.
Study more about depression and some of this will make more sense.
Thanks Cadet. I will do some reading. I wondered about depression but didn't think he had the symptoms.. At least not symptpms I've seen. But I've just done some preliminary readings and it seems men experience different symptoms than women (so his experience would be different to mine). I will do some more reading. I have to admit to skimming the depression section in DR as well because I didn't think it applied.
Zew - well said. I don't want to live in that state any more, I have to admit that I lived in it far too long before BD. But nor do I want to pin my happiness on some future event. I have a tendency to do this, as do many people. H too and it always annoyed me when he did. "Well once I get X, I will be happy."
I struggle with the dichotomy of working to improve our lives and being happy without current circumstances.
I have a new job lined up (after I spent the first half
Of last year in a woe is me stage). I've had it lined up since October but am still waiting on the visa. I suppose impatience might be te better term for what I'm feeling right now.
I know I do still have choices though. I could throw in the towel on waiting for the visa/new job and leave the country. But that would mean giving up the life I've built here and all my friends (this is what I meant by I know I have choices but the consequences aren't good). Still, I can choose.
Depression, Marriage, and Divorce
Many studies have found that being divorced, separated, or widowed is closely linked to depression. The loss of a marriage may lead to depression, or depression may lead to loss of a marriage. A 2000/2001 study published in the journal Depression and Anxiety that analyzed depression statistics from the Canadian National Population Health Survey found that major depression doubled a person's chance of becoming divorced or separated.
Depression can come in many forms.
Overt - Obvious depression
Covert - Hidden or masked depression. (usually undiagnosed)
By your own admission your husband is UNHAPPY!
Why do you think that is?
My guess is something inside of him,
not something you have done or can control.
Unfortunately it is not something that can easily be fixed.
Certainly not by us.
I've done a little reading on covert depression, thanks for te tip Cadet. Some of it does seem to fit with H. I thought before he seemed like he could be going through MLC but he's too young. When I get home I will re read depression chapter in DR (I only skimmed if before because i didn't think H fit symptoms of depression).
H doesn't have the anger that's talked about my covert depression but his brother definitely does. He's always starting fights, has been banned from bars and been arrested. H and I have spoken before about whether his brother is depressed. All f H's brothers self medicate with alcohol as far as I can tell. H supresses his anger in a way I've always thought was unhealthy (not sure if this fits into covert depression or not).
He seemed to have been self medicating with alcohol in January but this seems to have stopped in feb, but now he has substituted with a tv show. Before BD, h was incredibly focused on work (another addiction to avoid facing it?) and gave up a lot f hobbies and friendships to pursue work. He was incapable of making major decisions (another symptom of covert depression they say). We were trying to decide whether to move abroad and he couldn't decide, at the time I thought it was immaturity. Then he got the new job he was working for and seemed aimless after that. At BD he blamed me for giving up hobbies like biking, and got not seeing his friends more. I thought this was ridiculous and chalked it up to "believe none of what they say" but covert depression does make sense.
At any rate it isn't something I can fix, like you say. He needs to fix it but who knows if he will. He has actually said before he thought he could use therapy but refused to see an IC on grounds of expense (money is a huge stressor for him and maybe linked to depression for him).
Another interesting thing I read in an article on covert depression is often the Ws of covert depressed H's end up having overt depression (I did).
I will stay my path. Nothing I can do for H if he is depressed apart from validation of he ever does realise and broach the subject.
Reading about it has made me feel more empathy for him (and less hatred), so that is good. That and sitting in the park in the sunshine and taking myself for dinner (and a movie in a little bit) has made me feel a bit better.
Hi Susana
Sounds as though your day improved anyway....
Interesting on the reading there, and useful to look at things in a more compassionate way. I think it you feel really angry, it's pretty hard for that not to become evident to your S in some way. If you can genuinely get to a place of feeling some compassion, it's so much better - for you if nothing else!
I found reading stuff about MLC useful for kindness. The descriptions of the MLC stages on the Hearts blessings website were useful for me. and I certainly feel there is an element of MLC in our sitch.
The other thing to remember is - whatever is causing your sitch - your H isn't in a good place atm. Being a WAS is not a great place to be. We hear that from WAS's kind enough to post honestly about their experiences on the forum. Like Sandi...
Sorry to hear Susanna you are still rollercoastering. You did sound very depressed today. At least it got better. You know where there are valleys there are hills too. Hang in there!
Your medication doesn't seem to work to well either. What did they put you on?
Since I take mine I did not cry a single tear. It feels like I can not cry. Just can't.
I don't have much time to read much more what happened but I tell you you are more mature than him, depression or not. I said it before but 28 for a guy is fairly young. I can only speak for myself but I was in a different place 5 years ago maturity wise.
I hope he will have some energy to figure his stuff out. I don't see how you can help him with that right now.
Sandi always told me: You can't teach WAS a lesson. Life has to!
Don't let yourself down. You have choices in your life, and in my experience time usually reveals what is the right thing to do. Don't overthink things. Focus on yourself (you heard that 100 times already, I know, so did I).
If you feel down get it out, cry but then tell youself: now I cried enough, time to think of sth positive. Don't he too hard on yourself. Learn to love yourself again.
Hi Susana
Sounds as though your day improved anyway....
Interesting on the reading there, and useful to look at things in a more compassionate way. I think it you feel really angry, it's pretty hard for that not to become evident to your S in some way. If you can genuinely get to a place of feeling some compassion, it's so much better - for you if nothing else!
I found reading stuff about MLC useful for kindness. The descriptions of the MLC stages on the Hearts blessings website were useful for me. and I certainly feel there is an element of MLC in our sitch.
The other thing to remember is - whatever is causing your sitch - your H isn't in a good place atm. Being a WAS is not a great place to be. We hear that from WAS's kind enough to post honestly about their experiences on the forum. Like Sandi...
Thanks T. Yes, my day got better once I finally managed to force myself to stop crying (I know that sounds ridiculous, it should be an easy choice). I did a little shopping and enjoyed my dinner and a movie.
I'll check out the MLC site you mentioned. I know you mentioned some of the MLC stuff before, and it does seem in some ways like my H is going through an MLC type thing, he seems way too young but he certainly has the FOO issues.
Yes, I don't want the hatred or anger to bleed over and I'm sure it would become obvious if he were here. He is extremely perceptive of/over sensitive to my moods (think it goes back to his FOO issues). I'm glad he's away while I'm going through this and hope that I'll be more stable before he gets back from his trip. He does seem to time his ski trips impeccably - last time while he was away I started on antidepressants (and didn't do well the first few days) and this time I'm all over the map again! Somehow I managed to be pretty stable between the trips. Maybe I just subconsciously time my breakdowns for when he's away and I know I can cry freely?
PSA for ladies in the UK: no need to buy anything overly fancy, Superdrug own brand (B range) waterproof mascara has proven perfectly good over the course of my sitch!
Susana,
I am pretty sure that your H isn't going through MLC.
Sorry to hear Susanna you are still rollercoastering. You did sound very depressed today. At least it got better. You know where there are valleys there are hills too. Hang in there!
Your medication doesn't seem to work to well either. What did they put you on?
Since I take mine I did not cry a single tear. It feels like I can not cry. Just can't.
I don't have much time to read much more what happened but I tell you you are more mature than him, depression or not. I said it before but 28 for a guy is fairly young. I can only speak for myself but I was in a different place 5 years ago maturity wise.
I hope he will have some energy to figure his stuff out. I don't see how you can help him with that right now.
Sandi always told me: You can't teach WAS a lesson. Life has to!
Don't let yourself down. You have choices in your life, and in my experience time usually reveals what is the right thing to do. Don't overthink things. Focus on yourself (you heard that 100 times already, I know, so did I).
If you feel down get it out, cry but then tell youself: now I cried enough, time to think of sth positive. Don't he too hard on yourself. Learn to love yourself again.
Thanks Complex. I think the meds are working - yesterday and today excepted, i have been in a much better place, and if my scores show (I have to do some questionnaires before each IC session which rate my mood and anxiety levels) I have improved since starting the meds. I don't know if they're fully kicked in though, I will discuss today in my next IC. They definitely haven't stopped me crying completely though. That sounds like it's not right, yours stopped you feeling like you can cry? Seems a bit too much?
I've got sertraline (think that's Zoloft).
I don't think there have been any major developments since you last checked in. None of this seems to have been brought on in any way by anything external in my sitch, if anything my sitch seems to have been developing somewhat positively, this has just led me to question things and whether I would want to R or not, whether I want to continue on this path or whether i just want to run away. So it all kind of boils down to stuff going on in my head. Guess this goes to show how we have control over how we feel.
Susana,
I am pretty sure that your H isn't going through MLC.
Hi Wonka,
Is that because of his age (he does seem too young) or because he doesn't fit the profile?
Susana,
Susana,
I am pretty sure that your H isn't going through MLC.
Hi Wonka,
Is that because of his age (he does seem too young) or because he doesn't fit the profile?
We've had some young MLCers. I was what some people may consider a "young MLCer" as I started my own MLC when I was 32.
To me, a true MLCer generally exhibits those behaviors/tendencies:
-Prolonged covert depression (some overt)
-Memory is shot/vacant eyes
-Feeling an enormous amount of pressure
-Feeling trapped
-Insatiable need to "run away" (i.e., moving out or even moving many miles away)
-Having Jekyll/Hyde swings (between nice and monstering)
-Thinks that the world is the problem...not the MLCer
-Absolutely not interested in "working" on the M because they're not the ones with a 'problem'
From what I read in your threads, I do not see H exhibiting any of those MLC "symptoms" to date.
He is just a WAS who is frustrated and probably feeling out of his depth in understanding what entails a real marriage is all about...not the Disney version. I sense he is a bit slow in coming to the realization that M is hard work and one has to really work at it like a beautiful rose one tends to on a regular basis.
Hope this helps.
Susana,
Susana,
I am pretty sure that your H isn't going through MLC.
Hi Wonka,
Is that because of his age (he does seem too young) or because he doesn't fit the profile?
We've had some young MLCers. I was what some people may consider a "young MLCer" as I started my own MLC when I was 32.
To me, a true MLCer generally exhibits those behaviors/tendencies:
-Prolonged covert depression (some overt)
-Memory is shot/vacant eyes
-Feeling an enormous amount of pressure
-Feeling trapped
-Insatiable need to "run away" (i.e., moving out or even moving many miles away)
-Having Jekyll/Hyde swings (between nice and monstering)
-Thinks that the world is the problem...not the MLCer
-Absolutely not interested in "working" on the M because they're not the ones with a 'problem'
From what I read in your threads, I do not see H exhibiting any of those MLC "symptoms" to date.
Wonka, thanks for the description of MLC! That's really helpful - and nope, that doesn't sound like my H! (I didn't realise MLC could start that young though, interesting.)
He is just a WAS who is frustrated and probably feeling out of his depth in understanding what entails a real marriage is all about...not the Disney version. I sense he is a bit slow in coming to the realization that M is hard work and one has to really work at it like a beautiful rose one tends to on a regular basis.
Hope this helps.
Yep, that sounds about right. From my discussions with my DB coach and my observations I think when we started transitioning into the second stage of marriage (out of honeymoon phase) H hit the panic button (and didn't realize that this is a normal transition).
I know he has some FOO issues so that's why MLC seemed like it could make sense but based on the characteristics you shared it doesn't sound like him.
Susana,
I am pretty sure that your H isn't going through MLC.
Hi Wonka,
Is that because of his age (he does seem too young) or because he doesn't fit the profile?
I dont think it matters, you do the same things. What you have been advised here.
Yes. Same path regardless!
I am wondering what role hope and faith play in DBing. I have thought about this before. At first I thought we needed to have no hope but I think I was confusing it with expectations. Clearly we need to let go of expectations, but hope and faith brings us here and keeps us going, I think.
I think part of what I've been struggling with the last few days is lack of hope/faith. This morning I tried to imagine my future life without H and I had a few alternative pictures, a bit fuzzy still but there. Then, I tried to imagine a future life with H and I couldn't. I can't imagine a future with him any more.
Still feeling a strong urge to run away while he's gone, and never see him again.
Ok, I need to get a grip on myself and get my head back in the game (is it wrong I sort of see my M as a game now to be played?).
H is back tomorrow and I think Tuesday we are going on a not-date date dinner out.
I need to get a grip on the anger and resentment and hopelessness because I'm sure that would seep into my interactions with H so it's one thing to feel it now while he's away but I need to be vigilant not to let it seep. Still haven't seemed to figure out a way to process the anger healthily.
I don't really feel sure right now about whether I'd want to R if given the opportunity, but I also know not to close the door just yet. I remember reading through Train's old threads early on in her sitch she talked about not being sure if she wanted her H back but DBing just in case.
So, I think I will carry on. Back in the game.
S, it's ok. You have held it together in an amazing way, steeped in positivity for a while. Ever hear of ppl getting sick when their life finally calms down and they can afford to?
I think you've been repressing some of this for a while , and it's all normal. It's ok. Just let it move through you, know you'll be steadier once it does.
I don't really feel sure right now about whether I'd want to R if given the opportunity, but I also know not to close the door just yet. I remember reading through Train's old threads early on in her sitch she talked about not being sure if she wanted her H back but DBing just in case.
So, I think I will carry on. Back in the game.
Thanks Zelda - you're absolutely right. Thank you for your support, it really means so much to me. ((())) I used to get that, to a lesser extent, when I was at college and I'd get an awful cold/flu every year just after finishing exams.
The thing is I feel really guilty about feeling down and angry - but I always hear (harder to implement) that it's better if you just accept your feelings and sit with them, and they will leave sooner. I think there is also some fear in here - I felt like H moved a little bit closer, so my urge is to protect myself by running away, or building up a protective wall of anger.
*Disclaimer- some opinions here that may vary from person to person*
I understand feeling resentment for the pain he is causing. I understand feeling frustrated that you are the one that has to carry the weight. I understand questioning whether a person that could do this could ever be a good partner for you.
But I DON'T understand questioning whether you'd stay in the M.
I get that you may not 'feel' like it. But what does 'feeling' like love, or 'feeling' like R have to do with it? When you thinking about whether to work on your M in terms of whether you 'feel' like it, well, you might as well give up because you'll never last anyway. Kind of like the M ceremony where both people vowed to stay married "as long as their love should last". Good luck
My motto has always been "Act with the character I WISH my ex had". How can you find your H's lack of commitment hurtful, and then literally kick around the idea of doing the same thing (giving up on the M)?
I agree there are points at which you have to close the door. I'm not sure I'm there yet, but my STBX and I haven't spoken in 3 months, she's been with another man for 8, and she's living in a way (alcoholism, addiction, and destruction) that I can't be part of. I am filing D myself with the SUPPORT OF MY DB COACH because she said it was a gift to her to do something that would allow her to take full responsibility for her actions.
Point is right now I can't imagine us together. I think I love the person I thought she was, but I don't feel love to her. I have fond memories. But she is my W and the mother of my children. I'm not longing after her, nor do I expect anything to change between us, and 100% of my life is about going forward. Yet if she pulled out of her waywardness, took accountability, and wanted to R, well, I'd shake my head with disbelief and wouldn't jump into anything, but I might give her some time to grow and see who she turned into. If she grew into a good woman, one that I still had love for...why wouldn't I leave the door open to remarrying her? Not sure about that, I doubt it will be relevant. But my point is 1) VOWS ARE SERIOUS and 2) FEELINGS DON'T MATTER (for the most part).
In your sitch you are going out on dates, ML, and he is saying nice things about you and wanting to spend time with you, and in the .0001% not in an active PA. That's not to say it's "getting better", it might get worse, but darn, this seems like a sitch close to T3024's that just worked out splendidly. I get that your needs aren't being met and pain is being inflicted. You can feel hurt and that hurt can be turned to anger. Totally fine. But I'd encourage you to lose the talk about not being sure about R. I get that it's scary when you can't see the road ahead, but there is ALWAYS a path.
Zues, that is a great post. It really hits home with me right now.
Thank you Zues, I needed that 2x4. And I do agree with all your opinions, I just got a little lost recently.
How can you find your H's lack of commitment hurtful, and then literally kick around the idea of doing the same thing (giving up on the M)?
So true, this is the 2x4 I needed most. In the beginning I set down the path of DBing *because* I take my commitments seriously and I wanted to know I'd done everything I could to save my M, so that no matter what I could look back and feel I acted with integrity. Now, I haven't acted on my feelings of the last few days (thank God) but my feelings have not been in line with my beliefs, which is that I took my vows seriously and can't just walk away. And you're right, I am being very hypocritical atm.
We all know love is a choice and feelings shouldn't play into our actions. But it's harder in practice to choose to love someone who's hurting you. But, I set out in the beginning of my DR journey to unconditionally love H. Not to take cr@p from him, but to love him. So I guess now is the time to 'choose to love' even though the loving 'feeling' is gone. Gotta dig deep.
I know my sitch is in a much better place than many on here (and I have such admiration for people on here who keep going in the bleakest of situations). I feel a little guilty for feeling down at this point in my sitch. But, I have come to the conclusion it's a defense mechanism, like I said I have felt H move a bit closer and my reaction is to build up a wall of anger, or feel the desire to run.
I think the anger is understandable but I also don't think it's good for me to be feeling this much hurt, anger and resentment. I have always had trouble trusting, and being open and vulnerable. So I guess a 180 would be to take down the wall of anger, and be open. My question for myself (which I need to ponder a bit) is whether and how I can do this without opening myself up to more hurt?
Thanks for mentioning T0324's sitch, I am going to read up on it later (looks to be long so will take my time over the coming days!). I really like reading other's sitches and learning from what they have done.
Susana, I'm sorry your weekend was tough emotionally? I'm going to have next weekend free and just relax with my S, but I'm worried if I'll go into my head too much.
It takes a lot of energy and time to do the work we are doing. The days I get lost, down, or even question whether it's a relationship I want to save, I remind myself that these doubts are part of the process. From everything that I have read on here and in the books, we should be looking forward to a new existence for ourselves, with the hope that finding ourselves will bring our marriages back into alignment in a new and better way. That's not a guarantee that in the end it will work or that we will want it to work out. The end result is that we are better people for ourselves and more at peace with our lives.
I'll welcome any of the more experienced to correct me if I'm wrong. This is one of my longest posts I think. It's been a very reflective day.
Oh, and btw, through your inspiration, the three of us made a deep dish pizza tonight that was heaven to eat!
Hi Eirinn, just make sure you have some nice plans for yourself and S. I hope you have a nice weekend. I have spent other weekends apart from H and found it a nice break, it was just this weekend that was hard for me but I don't think it was because he was away, it was because I'd just reached a point of doubt, so don't worry. You will be fine, just keep on going!
I think you are right on your assessment.
And I'm glad to have inspired you on the pizza! Mmm...deep dish!
I'm still feeling the anger/resentment and really down. H is back from his ski trip shortly, and I'm working from home today but opted to go to a coffee shop so I wouldn't be there when he got back. I will have to go home briefly to drop off my computer before going to meet my friend for a movie. I am trying to minimise how much time I see him for tonight because I don't want him to see my current mood. I will have to bring good dose of 'acting as if' PMA!
well, that wasn't too bad, don't think I let anger come through (I actually made him laugh a *lot*) and I didn't feel hatred when I looked at him. Was pretty pleased with how well I think I acted as if.
Went home to drop off stuff and put on some red lipstick
before meeting my friend for cinema. H was there, working on his side project for work. He was warm but not extremely talkative, didn't tell me much about his trip but I guess that gives us something to talk about at dinner tomorrow. He did ask me if we were still on for pizza tomorrow night.
He asked to see the video B and I made and after watching it told me I did really great and then patted me on the head. Patted!! Like a 5 year old!
I have to admit, having the following conversation felt good.
H: blah blah blah oh and I can show you my skiing videos later. what are we going to do for dinner tonight?
Me: oh, I'm actually going to the cinema tonight.
H: oh? Well...I guess I'll make dinner then... Will you want some?
Me: oh yes if you could set some aside that would be great, might be late though.
Then I went and touched up my hair and makeup. He was on the phone with his mum when I went to say bye, so I was just going to wave and head off but as I started to leave he put his mum on mute and came over to wish me a good night and give me a hug.
I'm in a bad mood but not related to H at all. Just before I headed out I discovered a troll on reddit bashing me (my blog/recipes).
Guess I need to detach not just from H.
He also asked to my finger that I was saying I burned on hot oil the other day, nearly kissed it and then realised what he was doing and pulled back. Lol!
I'm glad it went well!
He asked to see the video B and I made and after watching it told me I did really great and then patted me on the head. Patted!! Like a 5 year old!
It's funny how he did that. Reminds me of when my H told me that he'd give me a month's notice before he left me, and smiled like he was doing me a huge favor!
Go beat up the troll, that way you get your anger out! j/k but definitely tempting!
Hi Susana
Glad things went well with H. Great that you already had a GAL plan and just a short interaction with him. All sounding good! Glad you've perked up a bit after feeling low over the weekend. Maybe you just needed some time to go - bleugh - and then regroup. You do get tired. We all do. Sometimes you just feel weary to the bone with it all - but here we all are, and the only way is forwards!
Hope you enjoyed the movie.
Eirinn - Side note, I saw your thread locked, are you opening a new one?
Haha, yes I was quite tempted to go beat up the troll!!
H is active on reddit so he asked me to send him the link to the thread and he will downvote the troll.
Think I might sign up and do the same. Lol. He also got a bit carried away 'comforting' me - after I mentioned the troll, he gave me about 6 hugs (even though I wasn't really that upset), started stroking my hair and then was stroking my arm. He literally looked down at my arm and his hand stroking it, realised he was stroking it, tensed up and pulled his hand back off my arm (still hugging me the whole time though). It is so funny and weird watching him realise when we nearly have a tender moment and then freak out! So strange.
Toots - Thanks, I think I just sort of needed to get it out. Think Zelda hit the nail on the head when she said it was like when people get sick after things calm down. Movie was good, went to see Selma. Very good, quite intense and moving.
Why is it so hard to resist snooping? Even though I have said I wouldn't snoop, just noticed his wallet out on my dresser so had a look (and yes I know there's not going to be anything in it and I had a look through his computer already when he left it unlocked - nothing there either - but I decided to have a look in the wallet *just because it was there* and I couldn't resist). There was nothing of interest in there, just a lot of ATM slips from his ski trip, his bank cards, a coffee loyalty card. The picture of me is still there, next to an old business card of mine (no clue why he's saved that
), he's shoved it to one side though (was in center part before). Trying not to read anything into the fact it's still there, he's probably too lazy to take it out or something. (And this is why I shouldn't snoop!)
So, on a more fun note, thoughts on outfit planning? H and I are going on a for pizza tomorrow (a not date date? lol) and I've picked the following, going for sexy casual.
Clothes: new jeans and a new sheer cream top (it's a little bit sheer, but not see through, so just the right amount IMO)*
Shoes: Heels of course!
Makeup: Planning to go fairly light, will probably do red lipstick though. I got some new coral nail polish on Saturday and painted my nails. Nice spring colour!
Jewelry: Have the best new earrings! They're dangly and sparkly and perfect and I wore them at the weekend and got a lot of compliments.
*I road tested this new outfit at the weekend and got hit on by a guy in the tube who must have been about 18! Lol. I'm going to assume he was so drunk he didn't notice my age!
Thoughts? Suggestions? I thought I'd go with jeans rather than a dress because I thought I'd keep it casual. Also I almost always wear a dress and didn't own a pair of jeans for about 6 months until a couple of weeks ago so it's a bit of 180.
Love the sounds of the entire ensemble. Go rock it, sister!
Susana, how do you tell that your thread has been locked and why do they get locked?
Thanks Train!
Well, he was already like a bee buzzing around this morning after I put on the outfit--
"Oh, is that a new top? That's nice."
"I like your necklace!! So pretty."
"I'm loving all your new outfits"
I'm still feeling a bit frustrated. I know it's impatience, and losing hope. When we were joking around and brushing our teeth this morning, I just kept thinking how anyone looking in would think we were a normal married couple, and not even realise we are heading for D. How can he act the same?! It's just so weird. I just don't see him changing his mind.
My friend said to me the other day (this is why I don't talk to friends about my sitch but he brought it up)-- "I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but I don't get how you can live with someone that won't tell you what they want". Which isn't true, he has told me what he wants, his actions just don't match his words sometimes. But I am scared, scared my friends are right, I am just setting myself up to get hurt more. Maybe by living together and doing stuff together I'm just prolonging the pain. This is why I have the urge to run away.
There's a scared little girl in me, even though I try to be strong on the outside, and she wants to be safe.
(Eirinn - they lock when they get to 100 posts, usually around 11 pages. You can tell because you can no longer reply)
The good news is this seems to be going well. Your H may come around, and if things do get worse he'll have a hard time rewriting history with you demonstrating those changes and having this kind of fun together.
It IS really hard, particularly because this could last a long time. It could get worse. It could last a long time, seem to get better, then he could BD again in a year and actually move out. And living in Limbo WITH the person is so tough. I never really had to, but I can't imagine.
I would remind you to work just as much (if not more) on detachment and GAL as you are on your 180s. You're only 3 months in and early in the evolution of your sitch. I know you're still raw and scared. Please take care of yourself and start putting yourself in a place where you will be ok regardless of the outcome. I don't just mean he stays or leaves...would it be possible to get detached to the point that you don't even care if you stay in limbo for a few years? Think how powerful that would feel. Keep trucking!
Why is it so hard to resist snooping? Even though I have said I wouldn't snoop, just noticed his wallet out on my dresser so had a look (and yes I know there's not going to be anything in it and I had a look through his computer already when he left it unlocked - nothing there either - but I decided to have a look in the wallet *just because it was there* and I couldn't resist). There was nothing of interest in there, just a lot of ATM slips from his ski trip, his bank cards, a coffee loyalty card. The picture of me is still there, next to an old business card of mine (no clue why he's saved that
), he's shoved it to one side though (was in center part before). Trying not to read anything into the fact it's still there, he's probably too lazy to take it out or something. (And this is why I shouldn't snoop!)
I am not sure I agree with the NO SNOOPING rule all the time.
The problem is you need to snoop inside his BRAIN and boy what a mess that would be.
Have you ever seen the story of Princess Kate Middleton's break up with Prince William?
She got out and got a life and look where she is now.
Just my .02