My old thread was locked -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=2542248#Post2542248Wonka has wisely advised me to get an LGBT attorney which I have done, and remove mediation from the table. I can stall this ou to 2016 easy.
My mission is to not talk to my WAW or send any emails
Remove mediation from the table, stop negotiating,
Fire old lawyer and get retainer back if possible.
Fingers crossed this works guys.
The goal is to stretch this out, make good legal decisions regarding my children and finances. And of course, maybe my wife will wake up by then. I am hopeful on that issue but at least I will not be rushed into making any legal mistakes that will haunt me for the nex 20 years or so.
Thank you Wonka
Jan,
I want to be sure I understand you clearly here. You do have a new L...right?
Yes - NEW LAWYER
LGBT lawyer who gets same sex marriage and what I am trying to accomplish.
Hooray!!!! Well done, my dear Jan!!!!!!!
Here's the link to your previous thread as your link above is a bit batty:
Previous thread
Wonka
I have too much at stake to DIY. My children are more important than anything - I need an attorney who gets same sex marriage and the issues associated with it.
Fingers crossed.
Jan,
Wonka
I have too much at stake to DIY. My children are more important than anything - I need an attorney who gets same sex marriage and the issues associated with it.
Fingers crossed.
Glad you do now see this and the importance of having a professional by your side....I pray for you and your family.
NAJ1964 - What a difficult period. As usual, you surprise with your capacity to adapt and execute. Bravo.
We all have our DB weaknesses. Mine is to be a wet noodle around my W: I can't detach and it clouds my judgement and PMA. People on these boards are constantly straightening me. Maybell thinks she can do it all alone. Jim0987 is overly self-critical. Susana4 is smothering. TenBook/Vasapro can't enforce his boundaries. Etc etc.
You know what's yours? Pessimism.
You jump to conclusions, believing that it's now over because your W told you it will never change. What you have to learn is to ignore these red herrings. Everybody who reconciled after an A has heard them. She also promised you her undying love until death do you apart, right? Yet, it changed. The point is that some WAW change their minds and it's impossible to know who will. So the DB thing to do is to proceed and keep the door open. There's no need to say it will never work. In any case, DB is not about sabotaging you in the name of some false hopes; it's about tacking back control over your life in a way that makes R possible.
We also have strengths. Maybell can handle situations that would overwhelm most. Vanilla can keep cool in the middle of a sh!t storm. Susana4 can flirt with her husband like she's Angelina Jolie.
You know what's yours? Execution.
When you shift gears and get with the program, you deliver. Don't let your mind get in the way: focus on execution and let time do its thing. Think of the Stockdale Paradox and plow through. Remember that the best way to lose is to give up.
Excellent post Mozza
I needed to hear that.
Yes, I am pessimistic but I am a bulldog who does not give up. I have never never never given up. I am great at execution once I get my mind clear and my orders.
I will deliver. I can ovecome my pessimism.
Yes sir/maam!
How long does one expect this situation to turn around? Wayword spouse has been in affair for 5 months now. I think I remember Wonka saying that 8 months is average for what she has seen?
Not saying that once she is out of affair, that she will want to return to the family fold, but at least with the AP out of the picture we can talk. As long as the AP is in the picture, I can't even talk to her. She remains the alien from another planet.
I know I have heard many times, this is a marathon, not a spring but any suggestions on how long this will continue? I have mentioned that they talk only once per day which is curious. Does that mean the A is winding down or is my WAW just BS'ing me. Hard to tell.
Thoughts wise DBers?
Jan,
That is the $64,000 question, and nobody anywhere can answer that. What I do know is that there is no hope if we do not choose to adapt and change and grow.
Mozza wrote some very powerful words. Try to avoid the temptation of looking at her car wreck. You've got your own to manage. That's enough for anyone on one given day, especially since you have the kids.
Leave her be, avoid temptation to navel gaze and focus on what you actually *can* control. Got it?
Betsey
I know I know I know
But it is soooooo hard. I know it is hard for all of us LBS so I find comfort in that.
Change Adapt and Grow....... a work in progress
Jan,
I am compelled to clear up that comment.
What I actually said to someone in a different thread (can't remember whose) that, after years of being on the DB site, I have never seen affairs end under the 8-month mark...and that was the shortest affair to my knowledge. From what I've observed here in the DB forums, the average length of an affair is 1 to 2 years. Some do go on for as long as 3 years.
Don't go by that yardstick---all of that is very fluid. After being around here for a long time, I have seen the following (not counting MLCers):
-WASes marry their OP after the D
-WASes marry their OP and realize their mistake...contacts their former LBS to try again
-WASes break up their A after 2 to 3-year period and return back to their LBS
-WASes follows through with a D with the LBS, lives with the OP and then turns around....remarries the same LBS
As the LBS, we decide to stand or not.
Jan, don't get too caught up in stats or 'this-n-that'..it does you no good.
Wonka, how does one stand for a M after a D, a OM, and still detach? I want to do this but I don't want to sit in my home waiting for my XW to suddenly come to her senses.
It is the mental state that puzzles me, but I am way too attached right now.
Hi NAJ,
Regarding this....
Don't go by that yardstick---all of that is very fluid. After being around here for a long time, I have seen the following (not counting MLCers):
-WASes marry their OP after the D
-WASes marry their OP and realize their mistake...contacts their former LBS to try again
-WASes break up their A after 2 to 3-year period and return back to their LBS
-WASes follows through with a D with the LBS, lives with the OP and then turns around....remarries the same LBS
And, I'm guessing sometimes the WAS ends the affair and just moves on to another someone else. My personal opinion (and it's opinion, I have nothing factual to back this up), is that for some WAS, once they cross that line, it's crossed, and they are open to all kinds of behavior that they would have never done before.
That's why it's so counter productive to focus on the affair and hope or assume that when it burns out we will have some kind of opening. Hey -it's certainly possible, because the affair and all those crazy, early, love feelings must cloud the WAS's brain, to put it mildly. But, at the end of the day, the real problem is that they were open to an affair rather than working on the marriage, and that speaks to something about them that they will have to address before there is any real chance of reconciliation.
NAJ, I'm a few months farther along than you on this ride. Your posts remind me of where I was in October. All the wondering about odds and timelines...believe me on this - you are torturing yourself. Let her go. Letting her go doesn't mean you are giving up, it's just recognizing that she has to walk her own path right now, and that you need to take care of you and yours.
Go ahead and delay the divorce if that makes sense and is right for you. But don't get stuck yourself - you move on. Not to another romantic interest right now, but to the best possible life you can build for you and for your children.
Jan, Raliced is right on the money here. Right after BD, my plan was to hang in there until the A burned itself out, and then get back to business as usual. That was really naïve.
This is her journey to take and it won't fit neatly into your timeline. Let that go. Let her go. Take care of you.
GoFo,
Wonka, how does one stand for a M after a D, a OM, and still detach? I want to do this but I don't want to sit in my home waiting for my XW to suddenly come to her senses.
It is the mental state that puzzles me, but I am way too attached right now.
Standing doesn't mean that you let life pass you by. Dropping the rope is essential in detaching. You're still hitched to XW's wagon because you are allowing yourself to get hurt by her actions or inactions.
In my case, I dropped the rope with Ms. Wonka after we sold our marital house in 2008. Completely. I went on and dated other women. I pretty much slammed the door in Ms. Wonka's face when she sent me a HBD texts. We didn't reconnect through texting until around 2010...sending each other HBD and Merry Xmas texts.
Then we had our first phone call in the fall of 2012 after my father passed away. We've slowly reconnected. I don't fret over our communications. Lately, our texts have been about 1x per month. Now...our last text banter was over Super Bowl.
I don't let life pass by me. I grabbed the bull by its horns and am living it up. I am involved in organizations as Board member. Stay in touch with my college friends. Get out and learn new things. Hey, I attended my first ever roller derby match. FUN to watch!
Put yourself out there.....you cannot live like an hermit.
Wonka
Are you divorced from your wife? I believe you mentioned she remarried? Did you reconnect in a romantic way or is she still married to another?
You can always read Wonka's threads for yourself. Her recent stuff is in Surviving and MLC. It would probably be a good thing for you to do.
Jan,
Now on a lunch break.....
Ms. Wonka is now married to her OW. Our slow reconnection is as friends. It is all documented in the previous thread:
Pretty In Pink
You know Wonka - I just do't want to be friends with her at all. Maybe one day but not now. I just don't. I know I will get a lot of crap from others about forgiveness and acceptance, etc... but I am not there. Maybe one day, maybe never, I don't have a crystal ball. I have zero interest in communicating with her via text messages.
Naj,
This is understandable and I think we all feel this way. I'm at the point now that I've come to acceptance and forgiveness for her actions of the past it took me a while, but first thing is to try and understand of how they got into the situation, even if you know the decisions were bad. What can't seem to forgive her for is what she continues to do to our family in the present. I'm hoping that if OM goes away, then I can start to see her actions are not fully and totally selfish as they are right now.
MC keeps saying to just be nice to her. I'm not mean, but I'm also not going in and talking about the weather.
Jan,
We all have been where you are at this moment. You are feeling angry, hurt, sad, despairing, utter helplessness, hopelessness, etc right now. You feel what you feel. There's no right or wrong.
At some point, you will begin to move away from that ugly square and move to working on forgiveness. It took me almost over 8 years to really work at true forgiveness. It is a process...not always linear. Comes with zig zags and whirly whirls.
There's no fixed timeline or deadline on forgiveness.
Be real gentle with yourself, Jan.
So Wonka
What is your plan? Have your moved on completely? Have you left the door open for your exwife? Are you remarried?
What are your expectations from yor ex or do you not have any? Just being friends is the end goal?
My WAW kept saying she couldn't help her feelings, yes I agree, I can't help my feelings either, but I can control my behaviors, something my WAW could not do. I concisouly choose to "be there" for my kid, "work on the marriage" "work on myself - IC", "Support groups" etc...
I guess the lesson is that life is not fair and that we all havve to deal with the hand that has been dealt to us. Chnage is inevitable and loss is always a part of life. So many lessons, so many ways to improve. Live and love I guess.
Thanks all for great suggestions and advice.
I will continue to GAL, PMA and do all the things I can to improve "me" first and the kiddos second. I have no control over my alien WAW and do my best to ignore her foolishness.
Parallel parenting is a phrase I seem to run across a lot when Co-parenting is not an option. This may be the place I wind up in. I will explore that more fully.
I have also realized that I must concentrate on the things I can do fully and honestly and drop the ones I can't. I think I should circle the wagons some and be good at a few things and not try to do too much and spread myself too thin. This could be a recipie for disaster for me.
Onward.
Jan,
I worry that you are using other people' sitches as a "measuring" tool for your 'progress' or 'lack of progress' for it is not doing you any good in, as Bets said earlier,
adapting and
changeing and
growing.
That is where your focus needs to be on right now.
My sitch is just that...my own sitch. No two sitches are alike here in DB because there are many variables, factors, and characters at play.
In answer to your questions, I am:
-single
-not remarried
-open to a friendship with Ms. Wonka
-a person who has dated several woman since the split
-expecting nothing from Ms. Wonka...why? I've dropped the rope completely. If we have do a friendship, how wonderful is that?!
Hmmm....more thinking about this.
When I do GAL - last night meet up with S9 class at a restaurant, I felt so.... alone.... out of place.... I kept a smile posted on my face, went up to people and talked and said hello. I ordered food for the kids and myself and then we packed up our stuff and left. I feel like I am living in someone else's body and life right now. I wonder does anyone notice how scared I feel? Does anyone notice me at all?
My perception(s0 of who I am as a human is something I am working out with my IC. I am "me" a fully formed and authentic person regardless of what my WAW thinks of me or tells me. I am not flawed, imperfect yes, but not broken. I am caught up in a situation in a strange town with no family or friends who is trying to deal.
I have my kids until Friday and then I am solo. I have my bluegrass jam Monday which I love and who knows what activitieis I will get into. I am trying to learn to love myself right now and find peace with that.
I am adapting - by learning to cook, by taking care of our house, by taking care of my children solo, etc...
I am changing by not leting fear guide my life. I am changing by reading books about how to be a better solo parent instead of reading books on pesonality disorders of your spouse. I hae changed that dynamic.
Grow - I am trying to grow by meeting new people, being open to nexw experiences, by growing into another version of me, hopefully a more resiliant one, and one who continues to live by moral code.
How am I doing? Day by day friends. Day by day. Yes, I have wanted to measure my progress but Wonka and others have told me that is futile. Yes, I have wanted to control my WAW and her affair with the predatory creep but that too is futile and drives me batty. The answer is that there is no answer.
My mantra - get through breakfast , make the kids lunch, eat lunch, pick up kids, PLAY with kids, love the kids and try to enjoy.
Thanks for letting me muse today. Feelings are stirring and I feel the need to get them out.
Off to field trip with D6 to the Fire Station. That should be fun and plus I get to see my D6 which will be a surprise for her!
Love to all on DB.
I can't tell you enough how much you advice, opinions, emotions and sharing have meant to me during this dark time. You guys are amazing and I love each of you.
So today was a hard morning. We do kiddos exchanges on Friday. I fixed up their backpacks and stopped by McDonald's for a treat of pancakes and bacon on the way to school. They were happy because it's free dress day. My WAW sent me a text "Remember today is free dress day". I know it's free dress day, I don't need a reminder text from her. That ticked me off and I did not respond.
I am antsy about seeing the lawyer on Tuesday. We have mediated child custody issues and tax filing issues out to my satisfaction. This was done between the two of us only. We only have the house and bills to sort out now. My WAW has not responded or provided me with a spreadsheet of items to negotiate over so I am thinking why now the delay?
Anyway, if I ask my lawyer to remove mediation from the table, I would go backwards and lose my points and she will get angry and take them back. I will ask my lawyer about this when I see him.
There must be a compromise to the situation.
My WAW has not responded or provided me with a spreadsheet of items to negotiate over so I am thinking why now the delay?
NAJ- This is quite common. My STBX did the same (and when he did fill stuff out it was woefully inaccurate and not always to his benefit). When I griped about it here, others jumped in with similar stories. After all, this stuff is all a pain, and their minds are on other matters.
So this is common. OK good to know. I will just wait. That has been my plan - give this situation time - for me it's only been 5 months - 5 Loooonnnggg months.
Another text this morning.
Please don't send the children to school with loaded backpacks. I don't like them having to schlep stuff. That's our job.
God@mn this made me mad but I did not respond. The loaded down aspect she is referring to is our D6 Girl Scout Vest and our S9 extra sneakers and boot. It's not like I put rocks in their backpacks.
Jan,
You really need to look out for #1 which are your financial health and the kiddos.
Slow is fast. Yeah, I'd be interested in hearing what your new L has to say about some of the options.
I don't know why your W is a backseat parent through texting. Maybe she is alone at the moment and thinking about the kids which can be a good thing!
Maybe she is just a nag who has nothing better to do than to continually criticize my parenting and breathing which apparently annoy her.
I ignored her text and did not respond.
My WAW also micromanaged some aspects of my parenting. The one to top them all was an email to my parents about their "concerning" serving of 7-Up to the girls over the Holidays. She fired this email to them less than an hour after she returned from abroad, not seeing D3 and D6 for 2.5 weeks. She did this instead of connecting with them. I stepped in, explained a bit what happened and said we needed to trust each other for the little things, as we knew what kind of parents we are.
I'm annoyed at certain parenting things my WAW does, such as not using conditioner nor hair blowing the hair of the girls. So what? They'll have better hair with me. It makes me more understanding of the things that annoy her about me (I forget lip balm all the time, I put them to bed later).
Our WAW do not have the same mindset about the sitch: they have a different kind of hyper-sensibility to our communications. For us, it's about rejection and lost love. I dread seeing her name in my inbox. For them, it's about getting things done to move on to this next, exciting chapter. Sandi2 often repeats that LBS have no idea how WAW think, but I also think that they have no idea how we think, so we need to let go a little.
I think you're doing well to ignore these texts.
So I just now realize that all posts can be viewed on Google.
Yikes!
What are the steps to prevent this? Is there a setting I can change? Do I have to delete my account?
Please advise!
The only way they can be viewed on Google is if someone specifically does a search for you. Did you write anything that is incriminating or personal to you?
Wow... That be a shock. How did you find them on Google?
well my pseudomn is pretty stupid and obvious. One search on that and there everything is!!!!
Yes, this is all accessible on Google. With just a couple of key words, I can find all my threads, but one has to know exactly what to look for. I'm not too concerned now, but I would certainly like a way to delete it all in a few months or years. I don't want to blow a reconciliation because it is discovered years after the fact.
My advice is this:
1. Do not use a nickname that's related to your real identity.
2. Paraphrase everything you copy from personal communications and public web content, otherwise someone can Google the exact words and find your posts.
3. Do not give out any personal information that would pin you down in a couple of posts. Over the months, we reveal much but it would take some detective work to read it all and cross weather, activities, etc.
4. Of course, for those with a in-house S, cover your tracks at home and close the browser and delete web history. Recently, the WAW of KeiranR
read the entire thread after finding the windows open.
Sometimes I wonder if it wold be such a problem if WAW found this thread. I pour my heart out, no games, and I'm quite clear that I love her and want us back together. Sure, I got advice on how to interact with her and some of this went against my instincts, but my end goal was noble.
Question of the day fellow DB's
WAW refuses to tell me why she is leaving - each time I ask her it's different and I am more confdsed than ever.
1. I am leaving because ILYBNILWY
2. I am leaving because I am in love with another person
3. I am leaving because I want peace in my life
4. I am leaving because I don't think I will ever find peace in my life again
5. I am leaving because I don't love you.
which of these should I believe or does it even matter any more??
The bigger question is, what could your W say that you would find as an "acceptable" reason to leave?
I think you're looking for answers and for peace in the wrong place, Jan. No matter what she says, she still left, and the situation still [censored].
I don't think that "knowing the real reason" gives us as much peace as we think it might.
You are probably right Calibri
I just think it would somehow give me closure and help me to heal if I knew "the answer". Its frustrating as heck to not know why she chose to blow up our family.
That hurts just about as much as the whole leaving part and rewriting out marriage to "19 years of living a prison sentence."
It just blows all the way around and I am really struggling to deal with it and to rebuild me life.
My name is Foolish!
What's wrong with these answers, Foolish? Why can't they all be true? Do you prefer what KGirl heard: that H felt he couldn't accept an invitation for drinks with buddies because she wanted to have dinner with him? Can you give an example of a reason that you would believe or even give you closure?
F,
Does it really matter to know "why" our WASes leave us? They are confused and will come up with all sorts of 'excuses' when it is patently obvious that they're high on the OP.
Ignore all sorts of 'pretend' excuses....it is ON THEM for cheating. It's as simple as that.
Sometimes we will never get the closure. I sure didn't get mine and I know that Ms. Wonka didn't get hers. It has been 10 years now. I accept that there will never be some form of "closure" for us.
So today I talk to my WAW on the phone. I called her early 6AM before the kids got up. She has her own place.
For the very first time, she admitted she made a "lapse in judgement" and "made a mistake" (with the affair) and it was a "cicken [censored]" thing to do. She admittted that she "stepped outside of the marriage" and that was wrong to do.
I validated and said yes, I made a mistake too by being so reactionary and upset by this whole situation.
She said she was upset that I talked to our friends and selected family about out situation. I said Yes, I did talk to a few friends and family. I would talk to the Devil himself trying to gain clarity on this situation.
I told her that I think we should go to counselling (for co parenting if nothing else). I of course and hopeful that if we get to counseling, we can begin to at least talk and build a foundation again.
We texted back and forth throughou the day with her sending me a text "Why do you constantly push me until I break? You give me your grief and then expect me to own it. I'm tired of living like tha"
My response text was something like this " I am sory that you feel that way and I have added to your already high stress level. Of course I do't want you to break. As for grief, that is my own personla issue and I am working on that throgh counselling. I don't want to figt or even argue, just to talk without distractions (lunch meeting at work or with the kids at home or her place).
So how did that sound? Did her admission of guilt sound like a breakthrough or is that my imagination?
I am laying low and not texting or contacting her again unless it's about kids or taxes (I am working on them).
I welcome thoughts and comments.
Latest installment
Met for coffee at restaurant to talk about improving communication skills between the two of us to be better co parents. No r talk at all!!!
She tells me I guilted her into meeting and she felt very uncomfortable just being there. She said she has been trying for a while to get me to talk about our co parenting communication skills but I would not participate. But when I ask to meet its on my timetable.
I said oh if you are uncomfortable or feel I have guilted you into this meeting lets just go then. I walk up to pay and she runs out of the restaurant. I call after her but she is running away.
Now what?!
Clearly that was a bad decision to meet for coffee. Why did she agree to meet if she didn't want to talk?
More lying low from me. Jeez
How I wish someone would reapond on my deteriorating situation . I really so feel hopeless now. I have been patient, validating, accommodating,
Yet u get further and further away from my goal.
clearly what I I am doing is not working so I must changey approaches. I feel I just get sucked into talks/ emails with her which are obviously not benefitting my situation .
Lying low is the only thing left at this point.
Wonka, Mozza- any more suggestions? Anyone?
Gotta run to work but I just made a post on Burger's that seems pretty similar to your sitch.
Look back at your thread. Suppose you made a pie chart out of how much you posted on the following subjects: ACTIONS OF WAW, GAL ACTIVITIES, 180s, BREAKTHROUGHS ON HOW TO DETACH...what would you observe?
WAW's are not the woman you married, they are not in love with you, they do not behave rationally, etc. It is easy to sit there and eat popcorn and be like "you wanna know what crazy thing my WAW did now???"
NO. We know where she's at. What we want to know is what YOU'RE doing to take ownership for your contributions in the breakdown of the M, to grow from them, and to use difficult interactions like the one you just mentioned as an opportunity to test the new and improved you.
The prize isn't that she'll come back, this isn't a game where if you make the right moves you'll win. She's her own person and may never come back. The prize is that you go from victim to movie star in your own life, and appreciate to your fullest the life God gave you. If it turns out your WAW is someday attracted to that person again, great. You'll have something to think about. But you need much more distance at this point.
OK, I'll be a hair late. You've got some good stuff in your posts as well. I'd say keep focusing on GAL, Detaching, and 180s, and don't let WAW break your sway. Keep going.
Foolish,
You seem to have two personalities on these boards. One of them is clear-minded and remarkable at executing a plan. Look at how you changed lawyer for instance. The other one is frantic and disoriented (we all are inside). In the early days of following your sitch, I had to go back to check I wasn't confusing two different newcomers.
I thought you were supposed to cut all communications with your WAW? What's with these early morning calls? The meeting? BTW, she says you often push her too much; be very careful to resist the urge to ask her one more question, to make one more call, etc.
To me, your fundamental challenge remains to understand the arc of how the success stories happen. It is possible that you never will, and it might be your undoing. We've told you many, many times, you've read the success stories, but you don't apply it to your sitch. I'll say it once more: it's a marathon and things will get worse before they get better. Things will get worse before they get better.
Things will get worse before they get better.
Before they get better.
Sorry, it must be obnoxious but I really want to drive the point across that any successful sitch goes through a very dark period, one that can last a year or two. You've just started. But then it emerges on the other side of that tunnel with a happier you, with or without WAW.
You appear to be going for the quick fix, for something to SAY now that will provoke a positive response, that will bring her back. It doesn't seem to be working from what you report to us. It would be surprising that it did.
As for the answers to your current situation, try re-reading your own thread. Really: have a look at what Wonka and many others have said,. When doing this, be mindful to discriminate between the advice of vets (best) and that of newcomers like me (support, suggestions).
F,
Here are some of my thoughts on the latest exchanges.
It is ironic that our WASes are fragile and we need to be the strong ones. Meaning....confident and display of strength.
As for your W admitting to lapses of judgment, it is a good first step. You need to be warned that she will vacillate back and forth. It is a process that needs to happen organically. This means no guilt-inducing statements or actions.
Bringing up counseling at that time might not have been the best move as you wanted to grab a mile from the inch that W gave you in her admission about her mistakes. Many WASes are not ready for counseling until LONG after reconciliation/piecing. You guys are nowhere near it.
I get the desperation of wanting to grab every chance to "fix things" right now. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day.
Let's dissect some of the exchanges here.
We texted back and forth throughou the day with her sending me a text "Why do you constantly push me until I break? You give me your grief and then expect me to own it. I'm tired of living like tha"
This should tell you something here. In DBing, we need to be the stronger person and put aside our own grief. Talking about counseling etc isn't the way to go. STFU and just listen. Listen and validate like a new lover.
My response text was something like this " I am sory that you feel that way and I have added to your already high stress level. Of course I do't want you to break. As for grief, that is my own personla issue and I am working on that throgh counselling. I don't want to figt or even argue, just to talk without distractions (lunch meeting at work or with the kids at home or her place).
Be careful. With those comments, you're reinforcing the ideas in W's head that all you do is fight and argue. A short and simple comment would have calmed down the waters:
Thank you for bringing this up...I didn't realize how this was stressing you. This whole situation has been stressful for both of us. It isn't easy for us at all. Thank you for sharing. Say nothing about you or your troubles. You really need to drink a bunch of STFU juice. I've got a bunch from the Wonka Factory and I'd be happy to send you a pallet of STFU juice.
Met for coffee at restaurant to talk about improving communication skills between the two of us to be better co parents. No r talk at all!!!
She tells me I guilted her into meeting and she felt very uncomfortable just being there. She said she has been trying for a while to get me to talk about our co parenting communication skills but I would not participate. But when I ask to meet its on my timetable.
I said oh if you are uncomfortable or feel I have guilted you into this meeting lets just go then. I walk up to pay and she runs out of the restaurant. I call after her but she is running away.
Aren't you surprised at all with how you addressed her? How's that making her feel closer to you when you've just slapped her here?
Be careful of pushing W to "talk" or go to "counseling" for she's not ready for either one of them. The LBS will need to learn to put their own issues on the back burner for the time being and really listen to the WAS.
I suggest that the next opportunity comes up that you shelf all R talk and just talk about the kids. If W talks about her feelings, then make eye contact with her and pay attention to her. No arguing with her or trying to get your issues on the table.
Validating means you acknowledge her concerns and reflecting back to them that you hear them. That's the simple formula.
Example:
I fell down and scraped my knees yesterday.Oh gosh, that must have hurt! Not fun at all for you.Mirror back, reflect on feelings/thoughts
I think it's time for refresher on validation.
Validation: Cheat Sheet
We have been interacting that is true due to tax situation. I am doing /compiling
The records for our CPA. So yes there has been some communication on that level. We work at the same place too so some work interaction happens too.
This morning she calls- I ignore it. She texts - I know you are ignoring me but are you ok? She is checking on me from the blistering text she sent last night. I ignore that too. Push and pull - it is hard. She treats me like chit but then circles back to see if I am ok.
I went to my bluegrass jam last night and it was just what I needed to get my mind distracted. Tonight I will go to the gym for a while so I don't have to go home to an empty house.
Mozza - you are right I am my own worst enemy. Still seeing lawyer today to review my options to protect me and kids. I will sit on my freaking hands to not contact her or respond to her attempts to keep the drama going.
There is nothing I can say or do that elicits any positive response. STFU isn't best option att is point.
FOOLISH
I meant to say STFU is my best option at this point. Durn autocorrect.
Wonka - when someone tells me that they don't want to be at the tea/coffee because I guilted them into it - what should my response be? I thought I was doing the right things by not forcing anything. The last thing I want her to feel is that I am forcing her to talk or listen or anything against her will. Doesn't that make me look like a tyrant "YOU WILL SIT HERE AND TALK TO ME".
So I guess the real take away is to not have even met at all. The goal of the sit down was to try and improve our comunication skills and be better co parents - period. No R talk, no counseling talk, nothing but how to communicate better. She keps bringing up this time table issue - it's like she is kepin this cosmic score card.
Certainly she could see that for the first few months I was a basket case, could not go to work, lost a bunch of weight, etc... How could I meet with her to talk about how to be friends when she dropped the bomb on me. I think I said "This is not a good time for me right now, can we discuss it later?" It was pretty obvious that I punched in the guy and was down.
So, concur with TOTAL blackout and STFU with her? If she doesn't submit her W-2's to me, then I will just file married filing separately and let the chips fall where they may - correct?
Yes, I know that this is marathon but OMG what an emotional one. At the end of the day, I hope to be a happier and stronger person.
All of this can be accomplished through YOUR ACTIONS....just do it. You can influence things by showing her how to communicate. It has to start somewhere...might as well be the new and improved F. Right?
There's the old reliable standby: I'm here if you want to talk. It allows them the space to decide if they want to or not. A beauty, isn't it?
Yes, this is a very emotional and trying time for all LBSes here. Marathon....the worst of its kind.
I'd want to consult with your tax folks on how to file for taxes this year. I'd always go with the pros.
I look forward to hearing about your meeting with your new L.
Yeah - it's at 11. I just want to map out a strategy.
I did find out that as long as one files disclosures that's all the court really cares about. Mediation can take as long as you want it too. After 5 years, the courts will toss it and the process has to staft all over again.
I am not saying that one is the best solution, but good to know. One wants to make a solution based of logic and facts and not emotions.
So now, my WAW has called my cell phone, and my office phone. All are being ignored. She knows how to push my buttons and this time, I have learned to refuse to play that game.
Now my lawyer has postponed our meeting until tomorow. Oh boy, well I guess 1 day won't make an difference in the long run.
Wonka, Mozza or anyone - do you concur that I should be completely dark and not answer any of WAW's calls or texts? She has not left any message so it's not about any kid related issue. I am having to sit on my hands not to pick up the phone or reply.
She wants to know if I am "OK" after her email dumping me again last night, and our coffee/tea to discuss communication which was a flop.
Thoughts?
F,
Ah well...one more day.
For now, I would stay dark. What W did in her flaming email to you yesterday was not a-okay. Yes, only answer those that are kid related. You two need to cool off after the intense talks yesterday.
OK - if I don't talk to her/ text/ phone - how will she know that I am here for her - for when/if she is eve ready to talk.
I guess that is a given, I am here, she knows how to reach me. DB just feels so counter intuitive sometimes, pull back when you want to move forward, say nothing when you really want to say, realizing that patience is the key, small baby steps instead of the desire to sprint.
She knows that I am not responding so it feels like a game of cat and mouse. I will be patient and work the plan if it kills me which it damn well might. :-)
I do respect the opinions of the vets here and don't want to sem ungrateful but this is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Really.
OK - she just send me an email message saying
We have to talk
You cant not take my calls.
Oh wise DB's - continue the no contact? What if there is a problem? If so, she would have said that right? Aggghhh!!!
Were you following HPoirot back in his heydays? His phone would ring non stop even after he told his wife he wouldn't take calls for anything but emergencies regarding their son. He got some very good advice on how to handle it. One thing he did was to respond only by text and almost never pick up. Also, he would ask "What is it?" by text. Go have a look.
Also, I recommend that instead of asking these forums what to do, you lay out what you plan to do and wait for feedback. This way, you'll make more progress in integrating the method in your being.
F,
You can say,
What is it that you wish to talk about? I would prefer to communicate by email as to avoid any potential misunderstandings.
Yes, yes to both of you - thank you for responding - much appreciated.
I only wish you "knew" me pre DB ing days. I was confident, on top of the world, and was a totally different person. Now, I am trying to get back to that person. It was still me, but with knowing I had the support and love from my WAW, and how I knew my kids were at our home, I felt so much stronger. We even joked about it and how much better we both felt when we "connected". That feeling would last for days.
I have to remind myself that is how my WAW is feeling with her AP and tha gives me some insight into her mind set. Being in love is a powerful emotion. I get it. I think most DB's get it. It's just that now we've lost it and are desperate to reconnect.
To get back to the old me, that is the real essence, I am trying to find it slowly it is coming back to me, by playing music, by working out, by reconnecting with old friends. I am still there, I was just buried by so much of life (work and kids and wife and school, etc...)
A slow work in progress, I am learning not to take the bait when my WAW puts it in front of me. I swear she likes for us to argue and fight. Todya's email was prefaced with the comment:
"So we aren't talking now, right? Back to that? Just want to figure out where I stand now."
Just yesterday, you may remember she gave me an earful about how I "guilted her into meeting with her, talking with her, hounding her, or just bugging her in general". She was very very clear that she wanted nothing to do with me, leave her alone, our marriage is over, she feels bad whenver she is around me, she never wants to come back to "us". She actually ran away from me at our coffee chat.
She seems to get a charge out of pushing my buttons and that leaves me confused. Why would she want to do that? So that leaves me of balance in her presence. I'm not sure how to act or what to say becuase it always seems to come off "wrong".
So, take the focus off her - put it on me and my kids, enjoy each day as it unfolds and regard each day as a miracle that it is. I am alive, my kids are healthy, they love me, and I love them, I have a great job and will make it past this - either with or without my WAW.
I swear I never knew that marriage could be this complicated. or troubled. Ours never was until of course just recently. I understand that gift of time and how I should use it for my benefit. I don't let my WAW bully me or push me around. I don't compromise my values and I am working hard on not judging. Who wants to be judged for their decisions? No one and I am afraid I did a lot of that which has stopped.
Is my WAW worth all of this work and self reflection and GALing and PMA and all of the things I am doing FOR ME to make me a better person. Yes, she is. But that is her decision to make. Regardless, I will move forward.
What's wrong with these answers, Foolish? Why can't they all be true? Do you prefer what KGirl heard: that H felt he couldn't accept an invitation for drinks with buddies because she wanted to have dinner with him? Can you give an example of a reason that you would believe or even give you closure?
Mozza - the reason that would give me the best closure is that "I had a lapse in judgement and made a misake". That would give me the most peace. Yesterday, my WAW actually said those words unprompted by me and I could hear them. But again, it was probably a mixture of a lot of things and in the end it doesn't really matter, she did what she did and I accept my flaws that led her to that point. It happened and I hope to learn from my mistakes. After all learning from mistakes is the only way true growth happens.
F,
She seems to get a charge out of pushing my buttons and that leaves me confused. Why would she want to do that? So that leaves me of balance in her presence. I'm not sure how to act or what to say becuase it always seems to come off "wrong".
When you are detached, then those buttons will not light up like an Otis elevator.
Remember how your young kids threw tantrums? You did not react because you were detached with love and responded accordingly in a calm way. Right? Same with your W.
I know, I know. Easier said than done...but believe me when one's detached, then those so-called button pushing comments won't bother you as much.
You're still hitched to W's wagon that's zigging zagging all over the place. When you unhitch from W's wagon, what happens? Exactly. Calm and centered because you're not being dragged all over the place.
You're as calm as Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd being the mad man that he is with that crazy gun of his.
All of this can be accomplished through YOUR ACTIONS....just do it. You can influence things by showing her how to communicate. It has to start somewhere...might as well be the new and improved F. Right?
There's the old reliable standby: I'm here if you want to talk. It allows them the space to decide if they want to or not. A beauty, isn't it?
Yes, this is a very emotional and trying time for all LBSes here. Marathon....the worst of its kind.
I'd want to consult with your tax folks on how to file for taxes this year. I'd always go with the pros.
I look forward to hearing about your meeting with your new L.
Wonka - How can my actions show her how to communicate? I am thinking hard here. I can certainly
1). Listen more
2). validate more often
3). not be judgemental
4). not make her "own my grief" or "guilt her into communicating"
I can also demonstrate through my actions of being in better shape, interacting with more people, GAL and keeping a PMA.
I think all of those are steps in the right direction.
F,
I am copying my own core principles from one of my threads over in the Big D forum:
Going forward, I will need to remind myself consciously that my criteria for communicating with Ms. Wonka will be:
-is it loving?
-is it supportive (within reason)?
-is it done without any recrimination?
-it done without any bitterness?
-is it respectful?
-does it come from a place that is truly authentic?
-is it filled with integrity?
I'd like to think that I've lived up to those guiding principles when communicating with Ms. Wonka. FWIW, I think my actions, word choices, and behaviors have led us to this point where our relations have warmed up significantly. It all started with MOI.
F,
She seems to get a charge out of pushing my buttons and that leaves me confused. Why would she want to do that? So that leaves me of balance in her presence. I'm not sure how to act or what to say becuase it always seems to come off "wrong".
When you are detached, then those buttons will not light up like an Otis elevator.
Remember how your young kids threw tantrums? You did not react because you were detached with love and responded accordingly in a calm way. Right? Same with your W.
I know, I know. Easier said than done...but believe me when one's detached, then those so-called button pushing comments won't bother you as much.
You're still hitched to W's wagon that's zigging zagging all over the place. When you unhitch from W's wagon, what happens? Exactly. Calm and centered because you're not being dragged all over the place.
You're as calm as Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd being the mad man that he is with that crazy gun of his.
Hah-Hah - a funny image of an OTIS elevator. That gave me a smile that I needed today Wonka.
Detachment detachment oh how elusive. The best method for me is o keep busy. It is when I sit still that it starts to hurt again and I even cry again. Seriously who cries after 5 months? It usually doesn't last long, but the tears are still there if I let them come. My choice is to not let them come and I am working on that. I can control my thoughts, my thoughts do not control me.
So the question I have now is why is her wagon zig zagging all over the place? I guess that's her own issue not mine. I just have to let her do her thing as much as it puzzles me and hurts me. Is her wagon still hitched to mine as she calls and phones and texts me incessantly or is it her way of detaching? It doesn't feel that way to me. Yesterday during our flop coffee session, her eyes were red like she had been crying. I did not comment becuase maybe she was crying tears of frustration out of having to see me over coffee. Who knows?
The weird things is in the beginning I thought for sure she was having a mid life crisis or a bi polar episode. Apparently not because no one else seems to notice anything out of the ordinary with her. So I'm the crazy one if I point it out, so you know what, I have stopped pointing it out. It's not my responsibility to fix her or point out what could be "wrong". That's not my decision or within my ability to control. She is doing what she wants to do because she wants to do it. Period. Accepting it. I don't agree with her decisions but they are hers to make.
God help us all.
F,
Psssttt....I have a secret here.
Detachment detachment oh how elusive. The best method for me is o keep busy. It is when I sit still that it starts to hurt again and I even cry again. Seriously who cries after 5 months? It usually doesn't last long, but the tears are still there if I let them come.
I had a really good cry on the following day after I spoke with Ms. Wonka this past Friday. Yep, I still do cry even 10 years on....yep...yep, this old Sarge cries too.
10 years on - OMG! I seriously did not consider how long of a marathon this DB is.
I hope I am up for the challenge.
Hey, hey....remember that Ms. Wonka is married to the OW. I've moved on and dated other women. I am not DBing' Ms. Wonka to reconcile per se but do use DBing principles in various settings such as work, friends, Board matters, and family members. They DO work...believe it or not.
I am around the forums to pay forward when I can...
Wonka
The biggest complaint I have about my WAW is that she is so so so angry with me. Her rage cuts me to the quick but I try not to show it. She is either rageful, snarky or just plain mean and hateful that it gives me the willies.
Is this part of the script? I am hopeful that this will pass but I am beginning to think it won't. Maybe this is the new her.
I might add - only to me!
She is known in her family as having a temper but this is a new level even for her!
Wonka
The biggest complaint I have about my WAW is that she is so so so angry with me. Her rage cuts me to the quick but I try not to show it. She is either rageful, snarky or just plain mean and hateful that it gives me the willies.
Is this part of the script? I am hopeful that this will pass but I am beginning to think it won't. Maybe this is the new her.
It's the
guilt that's eating away inside W which is manifesting outwardly through those behaviors.
It's not your fault.
It is not you.
It is all on HER.
Wonka
The biggest complaint I have about my WAW is that she is so so so angry with me. Her rage cuts me to the quick but I try not to show it. She is either rageful, snarky or just plain mean and hateful that it gives me the willies.
Is this part of the script? I am hopeful that this will pass but I am beginning to think it won't. Maybe this is the new her.
I think it comes with the territory. My WAW is the same way. One minute she can be sweet to me, then all of a sudden her claws come out and she lashes out for no reason. We can have a conversation about the kids and it will all of a sudden piss her off and she starts attacking me. You would think that I was the one who left. BUT I won't engage her on it. I will say "I am not going to fight with you" and disconnect the phone or if she is at my house I will get up, grab her coat and purse and say "We can talk again when you calm down, but for right now you have to leave." which also pisses her off.
At least you get some sweetness - mine is attack mode all of the time. Everything I say, everything I do, everything I don't do brings out the monster.
The only way to avoid the monster is to disengage from her. This pisses her off to when I don't respond so there.
This is a no win for me
F,
Remember....this is 10 years on so with the passage of time, the awful times has receded into the background for me (and I'd like to think for Ms. Wonka as well). Your situation is very new so things are emotionally raw between you and W.
Again, remember my caution about comparing your sitch with other people's. I have done a lot of internal work to get to the place I am today. You have just begun the work. Yeah, there will be some steps backwards and some forward steps. We have all been where you are now....BTDT and own the dang DB t-shirt.
Yes, it is good to disengage from the spew monster. Again, you cannot always totally disengage. Do what we do in dog training: reward those with good behaviors and ignore bad behavior. Respond when W talks in a respectful way. Ignore when it's full on monster mode.
A delicate balance indeed.
My WAW now says that the whole "open marriage" story was just a ploy. What she really wanted all along was to leave but she just didnt have the guts to do it. She only wishes that she had ended it that night instead of dragging it out for this long.
That one hurt and I heard it loud and clear. She also then said she never felt safe around me after a particularly nasty argument we had 10 years ago. She said she knew then that our marriage was over.
Again, so many stories on what is inside her mind. Her stories and he actions over the years do not add up. That is why I have such a hard time with this. I just have to let the stories continue and will do my best to not engage or try to make sense of the senseless.
It does not change the result
That's called "re-writing" the marital story. All WASes do this. Ignore. I am sure those comments hurt. They're just that....words based on A fog.
Believe none of what they say, see only half of what they do.
F,
Remember....this is 10 years on so with the passage of time, the awful times has receded into the background for me (and I'd like to think for Ms. Wonka as well). Your situation is very new so things are emotionally raw between you and W.
Again, remember my caution about comparing your sitch with other people's. I have done a lot of internal work to get to the place I am today. You have just begun the work. Yeah, there will be some steps backwards and some forward steps. We have all been where you are now....BTDT and own the dang DB t-shirt.
Yes, it is good to disengage from the spew monster. Again, you cannot always totally disengage. Do what we do in dog training: reward those with good behaviors and ignore bad behavior. Respond when W talks in a respectful way. Ignore when it's full on monster mode.
A delicate balance indeed.
We have two Parent Teacher Conferences coming up next week. Oh no, I will have to sit beside her and wait for the snarkies to start. I will IGNORE should they arise. Otherwise, I will try to be the most generous and kind person who takes the high road. It will be H.A.R.D.
So another email from WAW
So this is our communication now. Right?
She is basically baiting me into saying this is the only we are going to communicate - via email?
#1. Ignore the bait and not respond since I have been advised many times here on DB forum to be dark
#2. Respond with - I am honoring your wishes from yesterday to not guilt you into any conversation with me.
#3. I am happy to communicate with you in whatever manner you wish as long as it is respectful between the both of us.
Any other suggestions Wonka? You always ask me to preview my emails before I send them?
Here is my proposed recycled email response:
A
I would prefer to communicate by email as to avoid any potential misunderstandings.
Short and sweet.
F,
Yes...short and sweet is good. Don't allow W to raise your hackles. Ignore. Go with that last one about preferring to communicate via email.
Many WASes blow up the smartphones etc as a way to re-assert control. So script. Pretty scary and predictable.
F,
If your W comes at you with why you're doing this through email and throws more chit at you, you might want to say this to her:
W,
I understand that you are upset. Yesterday, some hurtful things were said to me and I don't like being spoken in that manner. Please don't speak to me like that.
Sometimes emotions can be quite high and we may say things that we will regret. I think it is important for both of us to take a break and step back for a while. It seems to me that both of us are shouting at each other to be "heard" but all of that has been lost. If you continue to yell/be abusive, I will not respond to them.
Please email me if you have issues or information to discuss.
Thank you for your understanding.
-F
Wonka
Tell me why again I even need to respond to this email? She was very very clear that she feels harassed by me, hounded by me, and that she does not want any part of our marriage or "us".
I feel that if I reply to this, that it perpetuates the toxic dynamic between us at such an early stage.
Would it not be better to just not reply?
I am being sincere with my question. I honestly feel that if she ran away from me, that I am pursuing her and I think she needs her space and frankly I do too after the horrible exchange yesterday at the coffee shop and subsequent awful texts last night and today.
F,
You certainly don't need to respond right away. If it is an emergency then yes, but otherwise you do not need to be baited back into a fight.
Did she send a response to your only want to communicate via email message?
I think what Wonka is saying about the email response is only if she starts to attack or spew at you.
And remember that the emails could be used as record in a D, so communicate wisely.
Wonka
I have not responded to her question from yesterday of:
So this is our communication now. Right?
She is asking me to confirm that this is how we will communicate - only via email?
I have not responded as I feel it is bait to get me into another argument and she gets to control the narrative.
She then sends me another email last night:
How much more time do you think you need to review and comment on the last parts of the spreadsheet but don't want to rush you.
The spreadsheet she refers to is our mediation spreadsheet. I have not replied to that email either as she clearly wants to rush me and I don't want to be rushed into something (a mediated divorce) that I don't want and feel it's way too early in our situation to even discuss.
As you know, I am speaking to a L today. But what I have gathered from our Mediator is that there is no time line, and I don't have to agree or even respond. If I don't agree to any terms, then after 5 years the petition is dropped from the courts. I am not saying this is what I will do, but it's an option.
I have heard from all the wise DB's on the site that this is a marathon not a sprint. I can't fix anything and certainly don't want to rush into anything unwise for me or the sake of my kids.
So, I am choosing at this point to not reply so I won't inflame the situation any further. I don't know how this will affect anything, but at least I am not being pushed into making any statements or decisions that I don't want to.
Again, this is a hard process but I think I am learning to not react to her zig zagging train but to disengage and I will set the course for ME and my kids.
Thoughts and comments are welcome and always appreciated.
Weird Conversation with OK Cupid Person
So an OK Cupid person sounded fun so we began chatting and found out we had many similar situations, both lived in the same city, both had kids, both were divorced (or soon to be I think).
We started chatting about how we got to where we are. Her story is:
Married for 18.5 years and then met AP and started an affair. The AP was also married with kids. The AP made her feel like she hadn't felt in years, that she was alive and how it illustrated how unhapy she was in her marriage.
She gave up her wife, her kids, her house and was fired from her teaching job. The AP dumped her and did not leave her family. She said she was not sorry she did it and would have done it again because it brought her back to "her".
She used the same script my WAW used, even down to the same exact words:
My wife "called the shots"
My wife was not there for me emotionally
I realized that my happiness came first in order to make my kids happy
I can't understand why my wife is angry with me
I realized I could never go back to my marriage
I am happy rediscovering me
I have found peace in my life as a single person
It was like she was reading from a script and it made me feel sick to my stomach and was creepy. I realized this is exactly what my WAW has said to me on so many occasions since this whole situation started.
I have read here many times there is an affair script and this is proof to me that this is indeed correct.
So so sad to have realized this but I will just have to try and use it to my advantage now that I know the playbook. I don't know if that is even possible.
Has anyone else experienced this scripted scenario that is so so similar that it is eerie.
Needless to say, I ended the conversation and won't be talking to this person again.
Does anyone have any comment on this weird conversation? Do all cheaters have this script book?? It was uncanny and creepy at the same time.
From what I have seen on here and heard, yes they all have a basic script that they use. The more I am on here the more it becomes apparent. It seemed a surprise when people were saying the same to me, but when looked at from the outside it seems pretty apparent in a lot of situations.
F,
Sometimes saying nothing is the best route. It looks like your W calmed down and went right to the spreadsheet. Yes, you would want to wait for your L's advice before doing any thing else. No more DIY stuff on these matters.
OK Cupid...it is silly nonsense. It is same for other sites like Match.com, POF, Harmony....you just really don't know the people on the other side who post in these sites. Some are married and lie lie lie like there's no tomorrow. I am not saying that all of them are like that for there are some genuine gems out there who are sincerely seeking out others to date.
Don't let those comments take up your head space rent free.
When do you meet with your new L? I thought it was today.
Hi Wonka - Nice to see you are back.
Yes, met with L today. We clicked and I really liked him, a lot more than the last one. Most of his clients are LGBT and he is well versed in that area of family law.
He told me to stop m., just stop participating. When W asks about progress, just say "working on it". He said that will stall it off for years.
However, that is not my goal, my goal is get my WAW calmed down and me too so I can approach this rationally and not be ruled by emotion like anger and fear. I also want to do this on my schedule. I feel more in control instead of reacting to her demands and general BS.
Does that make sense to you? I hope so because everyone else thinks I am nuts to not just go ahead and get this over with.
But then, they aren't me now are they? I want to give it a year, regroup and decide how to proceed.
During this time, I will continue to work on my personal goals, GAL, PMA, work out, make friends and enjoy my kids. I will be more soft in my interactions with my WAW. I realize that she is probably scared and hurting too. I will try to show her some empathy even thought I am still pretty upset.
I am even flirting at work and it feels fun. I had forgotten how to do that apparently.
Now lets see what tomorrow brings.
Another question - old family photos of WAW
Oh Wise DB's - should I return the old family photos of my WAW? I know we are not divorced but part of me feels like she would want these. The other part of me feels like she would view this as a hostile gesture designed to hurt her.
I think I will go with my first instinct and gather them up nicely and put them in a plastic wrapper and give them to her. They are photos of her Mom, Grandmom, etc....
Please let me know if this smacks as self serving, pursuing, guilting, any negative that could be associated with doing this?
Foolish the unsure
Please let me know if this smacks as self serving, pursuing, guilting, any negative that could be associated with doing this?
OK, I'm letting you know. I think you need to GAL and not poke an angry bear. Anything and everything you do will be interpreted in the absolute worst light and the worst intentions will be projected onto it. This would be a train wreck.
How about instead you do some GAL activities and focus on things OUTSIDE of the old M?
I agree with Zues - maybe put those photos away for now - there's no urgent need to pass them on to your W. She can always ask if she wants them.
T :-)
Another question - old family photos of WAW
Oh Wise DB's - should I return the old family photos of my WAW? I know we are not divorced but part of me feels like she would want these. The other part of me feels like she would view this as a hostile gesture designed to hurt her.
I think I will go with my first instinct and gather them up nicely and put them in a plastic wrapper and give them to her. They are photos of her Mom, Grandmom, etc....
Just box them up and put them aside in your house. It is not an urgent matter and W hasn't asked about them which is good.
Curious...why do you feel the need to act on those old photos? I think you answered your own question...subtle, latent anger toward W that she split the family and you just want to stick it to her. Right? No?
OK - heard - I will not deliver any photos to the angry bear. I will let this one lie.
See what I mean, I think I am doing the right thing and then after I sit back and "think" about the DB principals, I have to honestly reconsider. I can't say I always come to the correct conclusion, but at least now I stop and pause instead of just acting out what I feel.
Thanks y'all
F,
You've grown, baby.
You are learning to be less reactive and more deliberate in your approach. So glad you came here and asked questions to the peanut gallery before taking any action.
I'm pretty sure I have caught my WAW in a lie and boy does it hurt.
She asked a while ago for me to keep our kids March 3, 4, 5th while she was with her AP in San Francisco. That plan didn't work out and she took it off the calendar.
Well today March 5th, I called to talk to kids as I sometimes do in the morning and she said she had to drop them off early to school at 8:45. Drop off is usually at 8. I said Oh - that's early which whe replied yes, I have an appointment I have to go to.
I then call later to ask about her W-2's and she said she is in a meeting and can't talk now.
It is all very fishy to me and I am pretty sure she is with her AP.
I have to learn to detach more and not let this throw me but God I feel like I am right back where I started from. Dejected and rejected.
Oh well - starting over with the process.
So I am dying to text her and say "oh you are not here, OK, I get it now"
Just to let he know that I know she is lying. But that would be pursuit and I know that is a no-no.
This just breaks my heart, lie after lie after lie.
So, what's the matter with me, why don't I just proceed with this D. It seems the longer I delay the more pain I put myself in. It's counter intuitive.
Another question - old family photos of WAW
Oh Wise DB's - should I return the old family photos of my WAW? I know we are not divorced but part of me feels like she would want these. The other part of me feels like she would view this as a hostile gesture designed to hurt her.
I think I will go with my first instinct and gather them up nicely and put them in a plastic wrapper and give them to her. They are photos of her Mom, Grandmom, etc....
Just box them up and put them aside in your house. It is not an urgent matter and W hasn't asked about them which is good.
Curious...why do you feel the need to act on those old photos? I think you answered your own question...subtle, latent anger toward W that she split the family and you just want to stick it to her. Right? No?
I felt the need to act on them because she did mention them in our mediation process - she wants the old photos. I just did not reply. I thought by giving he the photos would make feel better.
Here's another details from the spout from my WAW
The last time I saw her she said later via text - you may remembe this is the coffee shop encounter where she literally ran away.
I am tired of hurting and tired of you hurting me, all I am left with is running away. I don't know what the future is but I do know that I will never go back!
I swear the convo was only about the kids schools, our mom's and other non r topics. We did not talk about anything else. It was only when she said that I was guilting her into meeting me, and that made he feel bad, that I said OK and got up to pay. When I came back, she was out the door. I wanted to say I didn't ask you to come back but bit my tongue.
F,
I think it was a missed opportunity for validation...next time it comes up, sit still and really listen. Then validate her feelings. Mind you, it doesn't mean that you agree with them. It just means that you acknowledge them. Saying "ok" then getting up to pay the bill isn't the right way to handle W's emotions.
Practice makes perfect.
There will be other opportunities down the road.
You are right - I can improve
I was just so shocked that she said that - I said Oh OK and then stood up to pay.
The next time I get the opportunity, I will validate her saying "I am sorry you feel that way, that was not my intention, that must be a bad feeling."
I will do better, should I get the chance.
Foolish
Feeling Low Fellow DB's
I am getting ready to go work out with a friend but my heart is not in in. Every now and then I just get these waves of despair and anxiety and today was one of those days. I am working full time but it's just hard to keep my focus on work.
I am trying folks, I really really am, but ..... I still feel like a fraud and not making ANY PROGRESS at all. Patience and more patience will be preached I know but again, so very hard.
I am not letting my WAW know of my despair, and an doing my best to not contact her or call or text or meet. All of those actions just make her mad and I have to respect that. I did have to talk to her about W-2's and our tone was cordial but short very short.
I can't believe my life is so empty without her. I am ashamed to admit that but it's true. You know what makes this extra hard is that I am a great catch (ok good catch) have a great job, love my family, don't have any substance abuse problems, don't drink, love my wife, etc... The AP is a predatory creep who is not attractive, has a chitty job, no car, and cheats on her wife. I just don't get it.
OK - thanks for letting me vent.... I will pick myself up and move on. I get my kids tomorrow for the week and I am very excited about that.
More later sports fans
Feeling Low Fellow DB's
... Every now and then I just get these waves of despair and anxiety and today was one of those days. I am working full time but it's just hard to keep my focus on work.
I am not letting my WAW know of my despair, and an doing my best to not contact her or call or text or meet.
OK - thanks for letting me vent.... I will pick myself up and move on. I get my kids tomorrow for the week and I am very excited about that.
More later sports fans
The down days are something we all know about. Good job on staying away from contacting your WAW, and looking forward to time with your kids.
I don't have any advice. I just wanted you to know I hear you. Do you have any plans for the time that you get to spend with your kids?
Thanks Wet - I just needed to vent and connect with others who are in the same situation.
Let me read up on your story.
So my WAW gives me the IPAD for the kiddos to use during my time. Of course her emails are not logged out and I could not help peeking....snooping... Jesus Christ.
She is completely in love with her AP, they have pet names, have each others calendars synced, and of course talk about how insane I am and what a creep I am and how pathetic I am. All of our couples friends have sided with her and they all agree I am pathetic for wanting to get back together with her and what a joke that it.
My WAW keeps saying "This is the last straw" "No going back now" and on and on with words to that affect.
This is very disheartning to read and digest. What an idiot and fool I am.
I know what the vets will say NO SNOOPING but it was right there. She even took some of our photos when we were in Hawaii and said "I can see me yearing for you in my eyes"> That is just too much to read.
Dejected
She is completely in love with her AP, they have pet names, have each others calendars synced, and of course talk about how insane I am and what a creep I am and how pathetic I am.
Aouch... This is so painful to see. But you were expecting it, right? I mean, you knew that WAW was in love and that this is what people in love tell each other? I'm sure my WAW says similar stuff and I'm really, really happy I never get to read it. Already, D6 told me once that OM calls her "my queen" and it sticks with me 4-5 months later.
All of our couples friends have sided with her and they all agree I am pathetic for wanting to get back together with her and what a joke that it. My WAW keeps saying "This is the last straw" "No going back now" and on and on with words to that affect.
She shouldn't know or think that you want to come back together so badly. Her emails should be an indication of the impact of your strategy. Your WAW should know that this is not your choice, but that you're going along with her decision because you know you'll be fine without her. It doesn't have to be true now, but from what I read, it will be true one day. You have to understand that you feed her A by making her feel like she's such a special person that you need in your life. The DB method aims at making her doubt her decision because you seem so content without her. Then, maybe you're the special person and her path is a losing bet.
Believe me, few people here have a harder time than me in conveying this to WAW. But I do. I'd easily be a wet noodle if it wasn't for the whip cracking of sandi2 and Wonka. I really want to tell WAW to come back, that I hurt more than she can imagine, that I can think of 56 reasons for her to come back, etc. Yet, in every communication I try to appear detached and, perhaps, content. After a while, her boring routine will be put in contrast with my apparent life satisfaction. The grass will be greener on my end. At least, this is how I understand DB. I encourage you to make your WAW see (or think) that you're moving on without her, that you'll be fine and you know it.
NAJ, yes the snooping thing is one of the worst things that we can do to ourselves. It is self-inflicted pain. It will always be with you (I know my past snooping is always with me).
Did you confront your WAW after you saw the emails? It sounds like you did given her response "This is the last straw" "No going back now". Again, I hope you learn from this. After an emotional information dump on you, it was the wrong time to speak to your W about anything.
I'm sorry that you are going thru this. This is bad. Such pain. Mozza has some great advice above ^^^, listen to him. Peace.
No was does not know and I am not going to tell her. It was terrible to read and confirmed my very worst suspicions.
Intel can be dangerous
Another sick twist she is now back in email contact with her first EA partner from 7 years ago. Her AP confessed for being into her and she thought the flirting was mutual.
My WAW claimed she had no idea.
This EA is what started this whole sad descent and I spent years in therapy over my "anger issues". Yeah I was angry those 7 years ago and she never claimed responsibility for that either.
I am sure it won't be long until she resumes her EA with the first AP. Most likely it will morph into a PA.
My STBX said the same things. Scornful of me, worshipping OM. Friends fully on board. Crucifying me.
Doesn't bother me anymore. It's like if you walked past an elementary school and a bunch of 2nd graders called you names. That's what 7 year olds do. It would be inappropriate for me to call them names back, and no point in being offended. Just keep walking and enjoy your life.
My STBX is out of my life. Not what I originally wanted, but I didn't realize I was marrying a 2nd grader. Sorry, we each contributed to the downfall of our M, but they are 100% accountable for their actions. The things my STBX have done show a lack of character and value that is simply beneath me, regardless of the circumstance. I would rather live alone forever than live with someone that will do that to me.
Maybe someday she grows into someone stronger, and if she does and is able to demonstrate this was a unique episode in her life in the context of a major life crisis, I don't know. She would be a different person. Maybe I could reevaluate. But that's for her to figure out. I have to take care of me.
If there is a positive side it's that you have hopefully learned how doomed the M is and why you really need to move on and let her, her OM, her friends, and the bs fall into the background. If she chases you down someday great, but honestly you can't look back. Just walk away and be grateful you found out.
Yeah Zeus126
Just really sad to see all of it.
She is completely in love with her AP, they have pet names, have each others calendars synced, and of course talk about how insane I am and what a creep I am and how pathetic I am.
Aouch... This is so painful to see. But you were expecting it, right? I mean, you knew that WAW was in love and that this is what people in love tell each other? I'm sure my WAW says similar stuff and I'm really, really happy I never get to read it. Already, D6 told me once that OM calls her "my queen" and it sticks with me 4-5 months later.
All of our couples friends have sided with her and they all agree I am pathetic for wanting to get back together with her and what a joke that it. My WAW keeps saying "This is the last straw" "No going back now" and on and on with words to that affect.
She shouldn't know or think that you want to come back together so badly. Her emails should be an indication of the impact of your strategy. Your WAW should know that this is not your choice, but that you're going along with her decision because you know you'll be fine without her. It doesn't have to be true now, but from what I read, it will be true one day. You have to understand that you feed her A by making her feel like she's such a special person that you need in your life. The DB method aims at making her doubt her decision because you seem so content without her. Then, maybe you're the special person and her path is a losing bet.
Believe me, few people here have a harder time than me in conveying this to WAW. But I do. I'd easily be a wet noodle if it wasn't for the whip cracking of sandi2 and Wonka. I really want to tell WAW to come back, that I hurt more than she can imagine, that I can think of 56 reasons for her to come back, etc. Yet, in every communication I try to appear detached and, perhaps, content. After a while, her boring routine will be put in contrast with my apparent life satisfaction. The grass will be greener on my end. At least, this is how I understand DB. I encourage you to make your WAW see (or think) that you're moving on without her, that you'll be fine and you know it.
I will try to do just that. I will be fine either way - moving on. Actually this is a good experience for me - I have grown a lot, figured a lot of things out, gotten to be a better mom an cook. Now I just need to not let my WAW walk all over me. Right now, she makes my stomach turn. Yuck