I have been reading through everybody's posts and trying to use their experiences in order to help my own situation, but would like to make my own post and hope for advice.
Like everybody else, my story is quite similar. My wife and I married 16 years ago, and have been together for 17 years. We were platonic friends at work for 3 years prior to that. During our friendship, we were both in marriages and it was strictly friendship. We eventually both found ourselves single, and started going out, and married shortly thereafter. At the time, I had 4 children from a previous marriage, who spent most of the time with their mother, but I had them on weekends and during summer. My wife had 4 children of her own, including a 3 month old when we first got together. We eventually ended up adopting her niece when she was 4 years old. Our house was chaotic, but filled with love.
We did just fine for the first 14 years. My children all got married and had children of their own, and we transitioned from parents to being Papi and Mimi to 6 grandchildren. She was an awesome mother and grandmother, and my children grew quite close to her, even more so than their own birth mother.
We had the typical bumps in the road, but I thought that our relationship was strong and could weather any storm. We travelled with family, and also took vacations with just the 2 of us, and we were very happy together.
A few years ago, there were a series of legal issues involving her children. They also became quite disrespectful toward us as well as drug and alcohol use. She is a non-confrontational person, and I was put in the role of disciplinarian. As one might expect, that compounded the issue and caused resentment amongst the children and I. Through it all, I was there for her as a stabilizing force and sat through many court appearances with her. During this same time frame, we lost our house because of poor financial planning and living beyond our means. I was the one responsible for finances in our relationship, so the primary blame falls on my shoulders. Before we knew it, we were both working 2 jobs to pay for legal bills, living expenses, and trying to keep up with the Jones’. I mention all of this because I think that is when our relationship began to slide.
We began to bicker back and forth, and stopped talking and communicating like we had in the past. If I’m being fair, I became emotionally distant and became silent and moody. I would go off by myself during arguments and teenager fights. We slept in the same bed, but our physical relations dwindled significantly. We still said “I love you”, but it was a quick mumble and peck on the cheek sort of thing. Through all of this, we still continued joking and making plans for the future, and I thought that it was just a rough patch that we would eventually get through.
Fast forward to October 2014. Things started getting very different at that time. She would become condescending and sarcastic during talks, and started picking fights. We had been driving to work together for a while and had always used that time to catch up on each other’s lives. Now, it was a 40 minute ride of silence with just the radio on. I tried to have an honest talk about feelings with her, and told her that I was miserable with the way things were. She became quite tearful and withdrawn, and refused to talk further. She said that she felt betrayed and that she had thought I was happy, and now she was sad that she could not make me happy. I tried to explain to her that I was expressing an honest feeling, but wanted to fix things to make our relationship better. I had hoped that this revelation would allow us to address our issues, but instead it was the beginning of the end.
After that conversation, things went rapidly downhill. She started spending more time texting and emailing on her phone, and became quite secretive about who she was talking to. She said it was work related, but this was definitely a change from the past 15 years. She would sit on the couch and not interact with any of us all night, and wouldn’t come to bed until late at night. She got a new work phone, and would not give anybody her new number (because it was strictly for work). She started going out with friends late at night, and we stopped driving to work together. She changed her phone passcode. These were all red flag behaviors, but I trusted my wife completely. I knew that theses were signs of an affair, but there was no way that MY wife could be having an affair.
Things progressed like this through Thanksgiving, and all of a sudden there were numerous holiday work parties that she had to attend alone. By this point, I had been asking her about an affair, and of course she told me that I was just being paranoid and silly. I finally pulled her aside on 12/15/14 and told her that I wanted answers. That was the day that she told me ILYBINILWY. I was flabbergasted. I knew that we were having problems, but I had no idea that her feelings had changed. I swore that I would change and do whatever it took to improve things. She again denied an affair. Things improved somewhat after that point. We cuddled in bed and held hands, but still no physical relations. We went to a few work parties together, but she also went to some by herself. She would also be gone all day and turn her phone off, telling me that she just needed space. We made it through Christmas and had our traditional family Christmas party at our house with 30 people. As always, I decorated, planned, and cooked the entire meal. My heart was heavy but I wanted to make it a special time for everybody.
Our original plan was to go to Oregon to see my kids and grandchildren for a week, leaving the day after Christmas. She told me that she needed some space and that I should go by myself. I reluctantly did so. She wanted me to avoid communicating with her, again because she “needed space”.
While in Oregon, I decided that I had to find out once and for all what was going on. I investigated cell phone records, Facebook posts, and used the “Find My Iphone” app. And of course, I verified my suspicions that she was having an affair. I sent her and OM an email on New Years Eve that I had discovered their affair. She sent back a short message that she needed to be happy, and a superficial apology.
I came home the next day and we had a lengthy conversation about the previous 2 months. She initially called it an “affair of the heart”, but eventually admitted to a physical affair. I expressed my desire to try to get past this and make things work, and took responsibility for the emotional neglect that pushed her into this. I also made it a point to inform my kids, her kids, and her parents about this affair. I did not want to be made out to be the bad person in this. Everything that I had read about an affair advised to remove the secrecy shroud, and that’s exactly what I did. As you can imagine, she was not happy about this, and accused me of turning everybody against her. I told her that I was willing to make things work despite her actions, but she got mad and said that she was going to stay with him and that we needed to get a divorce. I told her that if she wanted a divorce, then she could file because I would not.
She gave me the typical story about it “just happened”, but I had access to her Facebook messages, and those told a much different story. They started talking in September, had a few lunch dates in early October, and became physical in late October. There were literally thousands of messages and hundreds of minutes of phone calls. The conversations went quickly from talking about marital problems to expressions of true love, finding her soul mate, and plans for springing a divorce on me after the holidays. There were multiple dates and hookups, sometimes occurring just down the street from our house. I was portrayed as insensitive, unloving, and cruel. There were numerous jokes and jabs about how they were doing all of this under my nose. Very hurtful.
The most hurtful thing, however, was her undergoing a hysterectomy with him at her side. She is a nurse and I am a PA, and we knew that she was going to have a hysterectomy in the near future. The plan was for me to be with her in the hospital and for the first few days post-op. On January 5, 2015, she went to work and drove herself. I received a text from her at 5:00 that night, indicating that she had undergone her hysterectomy and was being brought home by her other niece. I was hurt, confused, incredulous, and angry. Once home, she said that she didn’t want to bother anyone and hadn’t told me, her kids, or her parents. She said she did it alone, and had just received a last minute surgery cancellation appointment for that morning. Of course this was a lie, and her Facebook messages indicated that she and her boyfriend had planned all of this back on December 11! He was there with her during the procedure, and she had planned it that way a month in advance. This was heartbreaking. I bit my tongue and took care of her for the next few days, because it was the right thing to do and she was in a great deal of pain.
On January 9, she drove herself to the courthouse and filled out divorce papers, and then went to her boyfriend’s house for the weekend. I found out about this from our online bank statement. I moved out of the house that weekend and have been gone ever since. She has continued to spend weekends at her boyfriend’s house, and stays at our house during the week. I have yet to be formally served, but she has hired a process server, so I’m sure it will be any day. She says that she wants to be with her boyfriend and that there is no chance for our relationship. I have sent numerous heartfelt emails, messages, and phone calls…all without reciprocity. My attempt at face-to-face conversation leads to her crying and superficial responses, but nothing of substance. Her message remains clear: she wants a divorce and wants to be with this other guy.
I have read numerous posts on this site, as well as both DB and DR books. I have tried 180, going dark, and LRT, but keep contacting her and professing my love. I’m an educated and smart person, but cannot help myself. I have started personal counseling, and am keeping busy with hikes, working out, and doing things with our stepchildren. This has been very therapeutic, but all thoughts keep coming back to her. I just cannot imagine my life without her, despite her deceit and actions. I have moved forward with separation of bank accounts, division of personal property, and contacting a lawyer because divorce seems inevitable.
The problem in my situation is the rapidity with how things have progressed. I have been unable to employ any sort of sustained actions because of how fast things have progressed. We are now at the precipice of divorce, and I do not know what to do. I do not want to just give up, but I cannot see anything that gives me any hope for reconciliation.
I have tried to be as in depth as possible, and would appreciate input and recommendation from others. I am so sad and everything feels so hopeless. I am moving forward because that’s the only option I have.
Is there any hope here?
Kramer,
Unfortunately I don't believe it is possible for anyone to be able to see hope at such an early stage like this. The mantra around here - believe nothing they say and less than half of what they do.
I'm sorry you're hurting so badly. I definitely felt your pain reading about the FB posts, being held at arms length during tough medical procedures - I can definitely relate to that one.
The most valuable thing DB thing I learned and finally 'got' was that our situations are fluid, but without an appropriate amount of space to cool down, pushing talks and 180s and all will just make our WAS angry, proportionate to the amount of space or "it's over" they're projecting.
What is the longest period of time you've left her be so far?
Have you actually done the solution journal? This was helpful for me, charting out the good bad and ugly and really looking at equal and opposite reactions.
Have you done the soul searching to really feel and understand what you can take responsibility for? You mention external stressors. What else?
Put a signature on your thread with the relevant stuff
Hurting is normal, no way around that, but if you assume and accept the worst case outcome up front...what are some things you can do to find your joy in just being you and alive?
When I started here, this GAL advice was not what I wanted to hear but it kept coming up. If there is hope of re-attracting spouse ever, you gotta at least be centered, self respecting, since happy is a stretch and hilariously pleased with life is out of the question. Plus, the sooner you can start nurturing yourself the better you'll feel, period.
Do you have any ideas for yourself in terms of goals to make your changes, stick to 180s? What are those?
This board will help keep you honest and provide some clarity, the more you can post, the more support is out there.
Here's some encouragement. I would turn my speakers up and watch daily when I needed to rise up a bit. Found it powerful.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2380415&page=1Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).
Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2183063&fpart=1Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Zelda, thanks for your heartfelt and rapid response. I readily admit that I have not left her alone for more than a few days without texting, emailing, or calling. Sometimes she initiates it and sometimes I do.
I have definitely taken stock of my life and how my actions contributed to the emotional distance that pushed her away. I have taken ownership of that. I can understand how my actions opened the door for her, but she must bear the blame for walking through that door and actually having the affair.
I have realized that happiness comes from within, and that I was relying on others to make me happy. I am getting in touch with my inner self and trying to be a more positive person every day. I have always been a kind, empathetic, and forgiving person and those qualities were suppressed by depression and anger. This is an ongoing process, but I am taking it one day at a time.
I am taking care of myself, body and soul. I am doing things that are healthy and bring me pleasure, such as hiking, biking, and spending time with the kids.
I imagine that I am going through the same emotions as most of you. My head knows what needs to be done, but my heart counteracts things. My biggest fear here is closing the door to reconciliation too quickly. 4 months ago we were holding hands and talking about the future, and today I'm lucky to get a 3 word response from her. Quite a drastic change.
I just find it unfathomable how an affair of just a few months can trump a marriage of 16 years, after all that we went through.
I know that most affairs fizzle out on their own, and that marriages borne of affairs don't typically last. However, what about long term marriages that are thrown away after only a few month affair? Does my marriage have any chance at all?
Just an update:
She has found a new house, and will be moving out this weekend. Thus far, she has been living here during the week and going to her boyfriends's house on the weekend. He lives about an hour away. Her original plan was for her children to live with her. However, they are disgusted with her behavior. 1 has moved in with his girlfriend, 1 has gone to live with his dad, 1 has moved out on his own, and the youngest (17) will be living with her. Ironically, her niece that we adopted at age 4 has chosen to live with me.
Her boyfriend's wife died a few years ago, and he has 3 young children (8, 10,and 14). My STBXW is a fun and (usually) loving parent, so I'm sure that she has taken over the mommy role for them.
Of course, she has lost her entire family because of this affair, yet still continues down this path. Very surreal.
What is my next move? I know that I need to just back off and give her space, and work on myself. However, now we must also deal with divorce proceedings, division of property, division of bills, and other related issues. How do I detach and "go dark" with all of those things needing to be done?
Is there anybody out there that can give me some further advice. I need to protect myself legally, which may make me look like a jerk to WAW. By the same token, her actions have consistently shown that she doesn't want to be with me and has already moved on. I, however, don't want to ruin any chance of reconciliation. This is so hard.
Kramer- By all means seek out legal advice. You can't live in fear of how your completely reasonable actions might influence her right now.
However, now we must also deal with divorce proceedings, division of property, division of bills, and other related issues. How do I detach and "go dark" with all of those things needing to be done?
Detaching means simply accepting that you cannot influence or control her actions right now. That will protect you emotionally. As far as going dark - it's not a all or nothing proposition. Only contact her about the bare necessities. Don't be rude or short. Maintain your dignity and be civil. You're at the very beginning of this. I promise you, it does get better.
K, somewhere on MWD articles on front of this site is a first hand account of how a man gradually won his WAW back through vowing to be her best friend, unconditional love, etc. not in a pursuit-y fashion, but with dignity and acceptance. If your crime was emotional distance seems it may apt.
Detach/going dark/LRT has it's place, and I'm sure there are vets here that can better advise with regard to a long marriage, OP. Seek out Train I think or Starsky.
I can't seem to find that article.
How do I find Starsky or Train?
Have a look on the infidelity area of the site, Starsky and Train post there often. I know Starsky has posted today. If you find a post of his, click on Starsky in the top left hand corner, and from the drop down box you can view all his posts.
As for the article, I'm not sure on that one I'm afraid, but someone else may chime in. As for your question - is there hope? Well, you already know that most affairs don't last and that most M's survive them. So, yes there's hope.
But, one quote that stayed with me about this site is - hardly any sitches get resolved in less than 9 months, and most take much longer. So, for now, your faith needs to be a longer term thing....this is a marathon, not a sprint.
I became emotionally distant and became silent and moody. I would go off by myself during arguments and teenager fights. We slept in the same bed, but our physical relations dwindled significantly. We still said “I love you”, but it was a quick mumble and peck on the cheek sort of thing.
Just read your thread. The quote above sounds completely familiar.
I to would be extremely interested in the article on winning your WAW back by being her friend.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htmSo much of the good advice here is geared to LRT and going dark. I think this is a nice example that sometimes...after some space FIRST...there is room to love at a respectful-to-yourself kind of distance.
My sitch was nothing like this but I kept coming back to this man's account and the story of Carol and Dean in DR to see how to love through anger.
Newest update:
STBXW supposedly has a place and has move in date of March 1. She is still spending weekends with her boyfriend, including this weekend. She has a few boxes packed, but I'm not sure how or when she is actually going to move. I mentioned earlier that her 17 year old son will live with her. The 19 year old twins have moved out and her 23 year old son wants nothing to do with her. Her 18 year old niece is disgusted with her, and will live with me. I have decided to stay in our old house when my STBXW leaves. I'm staying with a friend now.
I still have yet to be served divorce papers, although there is a process server calling me, so I know they are coming. Papers were filed by her on January 9, and I believe she only has 60 days to serve them in California before they expire.
Even though I'm staying in the house when she leaves, I don't trust her. When she was at work, I hired movers to take the furniture that we had agreed would be mine, and placed it in storage. I also withdrew half of the March rent from our joint account and paid the rent. When I had mentioned getting my own place last month, she was adamant that we were both on the lease at our house and each obligated to pay half the rent until lease expires. Therefore, that same thing holds true if she decides to move, right? Once I change the lease over to my name only, I will pay the total amount. That is currently in the works.
I worry that the above measures come across as controlling and vindictive. In other circumstances, I may even agree. However, she has filed divorce and is moving out AND still with OM. therefore I feel a need to protect my finances and assets. Am I wrong?
No, you're not wrong. In fact you are absolutely right. You are merely playing wise defense, and protecting yourself. Legally, financially, emotionally -- time to button them all up.
Have you seen an atty yet, or are you waiting to be served?
Starsky
I became emotionally distant and became silent and moody. I would go off by myself during arguments and teenager fights. We slept in the same bed, but our physical relations dwindled significantly. We still said “I love you”, but it was a quick mumble and peck on the cheek sort of thing.
Just read your thread. The quote above sounds completely familiar.
I to would be extremely interested in the article on winning your WAW back by being her friend.
I have personally never seen this approach work when there is an active, unrepentant affair involved. To me, it doesn't even jibe with everything else that MWD teaches -- is love to ask her about it. Strong boundaries and GAL, 180s, cleaning up your own side of the street. That's what works.
Starsky
No, you're not wrong. In fact you are absolutely right. You are merely playing wise defense, and protecting yourself. Legally, financially, emotionally -- time to button them all up.
Have you seen an atty yet, or are you waiting to be served?
Starsky
I have spoke with attorney but not yet retained one. Our case would be rather straightforward in that we don't have children together and do not own any property. Our bills will be split 50/50, as will our assets. She is trying to guilt me into taking the majority of the bills, and conveniently "forgot" to list her $200k 403b assets for retirement. She wants us each to keep our own retirements and says that we can do everything on our own without attorneys. Obviously, she is hoping that I just give in to keep the peace, but that's not gonna happen. Especially with her in an ongoing affair.
Who makes more money? How many years is considered a "long-term marriage" in you state?
We both make the same per month. Not sure about long term criteria.
I don't want it to seem like my emphasis is on divorce. It's not. More than anything, I want to reconcile with my wife. I am simply trying to protect myself, but my goal is to get my wife back. As I mentioned previously, this whole process has been so fast. Just a few short months ago, we were in a loving (I thought) relationship, and now she is in a full fledged affair, staying with him on weekends, filed for divorce, and moving to her own place. It's really quite dizzying.
The thing is, I can't compete with OM. He drives a Maserati and a Benz, lives in a mini mansion, and can afford to treat her like royalty. Even before the split, we made good money together but had lots of bills. With the split, there are even more bills, and neither one of us is going to do well financially. All I can offer is 17 years worth of history and memories. My STBXE was always down to earth, frugal, genuine, and family first. Since affair, she has become materialistic and completely deserted both her and my families. She was an awesome grandmother for my children's children, and they adored her. She has not called or contacted them since I discovered her affair on New Year's Eve. They are as distraught as I am.
3 months ago, I would have described her as the perfect wife, mother, and grandmother. Now, I don't even recognize who she has become. And yet, I would give anything to have her back. Sigh... This [censored].
Any thoughts from anyone? I am vacillating between extreme sadness and anger for what she has done. Every facet of my life is related to her. We did SO much together and now it has just evaporated like it never existed. Somebody who has known her for 4 months is doing the things that I should be doing. This is so unfair and heartbreaking. How can she not see the pain and destruction that she has caused? I see all these older couples holding hands and get so jealous and sad. I loved being married and do not want to be single!
And it doesn't help that she is drop dead gorgeous.
MLC could be a thing here? Women get them too, don't they? Does that chapter in DR look like that to you?
Hang in there, Kramer. One day at a time, it may help to remember you can't control her or this outcome. Wishing you a little more strength and less hurt each day.
I am absolutely sure that MLC is part of this. As far as I know, she never strayed before and was the ideal wife. All of these changes happened over the past few months, and coincide with her first bio grandchild due in April, her youngest getting ready to graduate, money issues at home, health issues with her parents, recent hysterectomy for her, etc.
I don't recall how dual WAW and MLC should be treated. Especially with OM still very much in the picture. She has deserted everybody, not just me.
Hi Kramer
Best not to spend too much time diagnosing the 'cause.'
The main DB principles apply in both situations anyway - GAL, 180s, detach, friendly like a neighbour etc....I would keep your focus on you, and on these. You may also want to revisit the chapters on infidelity and MLC in DR.
I don't recall how dual WAW and MLC should be treated. Especially with OM still very much in the picture. She has deserted everybody, not just me.
Pretty much the same, only with a helluva lot more patience when dealing with MLC. But it's still 180s, GAL, detach, healthy boundaries.
Starsky
Kramer, what have you got lined up for your week? What's good for you and this journey you're on now (whether you wanted to be or not?)
Or, give us another list: why isWaW a fool to leave Kramer? Let's not hear anything about how beautiful and wonderful she is for a moment; YOU
Brought a lot to the table - what was it?
Zelda,
Well, believe it or not, I'm in Maui for the next week at a medical conference, so lots of things to distract me. I will work out daily and appreciate the beauty around me. If I'm being honest, though, it is also bittersweet and traumatic being here. This was always one of our favorite vacation spots, and I actually booked it 6 months ago when we were still together. Lots of memories and what-ifs going on in my head right now.
In answer to your second question, I don't have a very big list. My biggest attribute was being a hopeless romantic and keeping the household running smooth. Neither of which is possible now that she has filed for divorce and moved out. I was always a kind and caring person as well, but recent events have made it difficult for her to see that.
Newest update: She hired movers and moved in to her new house yesterday. She ended up taking some disputed items and I confronted her (via text, since I am at a conference) on this. She did not respond so I proceded to tell her that I guess it's time to get lawyers involved. Immediately, her 17 year old son starts texting me and badmouthing me, asking why I was taking his mother to court and accusing me of lying that I still love him and his mother. I took the high road and told him that this conversation should be between his more and me, and that there are always 2 sides to every story.
I also told her that it wasn't necessarily the property that I was upset about, but the complete lack of respect and communication. This whole affair discovery, separation, divorce, and moving out experience has been done primarily via text and email. Whenever I attempt to have a face to face talk, she just gets emotional and starts crying. We discuss a few things and then the conversation breaks down. She tells me that she is sad and "sorry", but doesn't offer any specifics regarding WHAT she is sorry for.
She continues to portray the victim and constantly brings up my shortcomings, such as poor money management, emotional distancing, and a controlling behavior. All of these are valid to a certain point, and I have admitted my faults and made strides to change. However, despite those shortcomings, it was not a reason to enter into an ongoing affair and lead a double life with me. If she was truly that unhappy, she should have insisted on MC at the time, or filed for divorce then. As far as I'm concerned, she lost all sympathy when she entered into this hurtful affair.
During our texting conversation yesterday, I was trying to limit the conversation to necessary legal issues only, but it soon veered off topic. We have 2 dogs that we love, but they, along with everybody else, have been ignored by her since she has Ben in her fantasy life. Her new place doesn't allow dogs, and her BF doesn't like dogs. She has the audacity to tell me that she wants visitation rights with the dogs! WTF? I informed her that her lifestyle was too busy at the moment, and that it was not a good idea.
She then proceeds to tell me that I am always off traveling. Keep in mind that as a couple, we did a lot of travelling and getaways, which I typically planned and paid for up to a year in advance. 2 of our favorite places to go are Carmel and Maui, and I booked these trips 6 months ago for us. Keep in mind that they are already paid for. Again, she has the audacity to tell me that she would never go on those trips without me, and trying to make me feel guilty. I asked her if the situation were reversed and I was the one having an affair, would she go without me? Of course she says no, but I find that hard to believe. The ironic thing is that these places remind me of her constantly, and although I am enjoying myself, it is also quite sad as well. I am trying to GAL and move on with my life. Why should I sit home by myself and be depressed?
So what do you make of this? Reading between the lines, I think that she still has feelings and is envious that I am moving forward. I can't help but think that she has gotten so far ahead of herself with these life changing decisions/actions, and cannot stop the train. I don't think that she has thought about the long term repercussions of her actions. Our finances are going to suffer greatly with divorce and 2 households, and half of her 403b retirement and pension will be mine. She will also inherit half of our (substantial) debts I'm sure she is going to play the guilt card, but California law is quite clear regarding divorce (50/50 community property). She already borrowed money from OM to pay for movers and rent expenses. How long before he realizes that he is going to be her sugar daddy? He wants nothing to do with her family and kids. What happens when she breaks out of her fog and wants to reintegrate her family? And trust me, her family has a LOT of drama.
I realize that I cannot control anything but myself, and I am trying to move forward in my life and be a better person. For me. By the same token, I don't want to prematurely close the door to reconciliation with my wife. I think that I need to limit conversations to strictly legal issues, and continue to detach and GAL. She needs to realize and experience the repercussions and consequences of her actions.
How do I accomplish all of this without being a jerk? I am ordinarily a kind and caring person, and I don't want her or others to think that I am an a-hole. By the same token, I don't want to be given a guilt trip or taken advantage of.
Help please!
How do I accomplish all of this without being a jerk? I am ordinarily a kind and caring person, and I don't want her or others to think that I am an a-hole. By the same token, I don't want to be given a guilt trip or taken advantage of.
Help please!
During my sitch, my mentor on here (and offline) gave me an invaluable piece of advice. In fact it was probably THE biggest piece of advice I got, maybe along with "You need to realize that YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER," but it was this:
In every situation, instead of making a decision based on "Will she be angry? How will she react? How will her reaction make ME feel?" . . . and instead replace it with "What is The Right Thing to Do in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?"
And then let the chips fall where they may.
Starsky, I hear what you're saying. However, I believe Jesus would say to turn the other cheek and give her whatever she asks for. That material things don't mater. That I should forgive her for all of her transgressions and pray for her heart to soften.
I believe in God, but I'm having a hard time understanding what His master plan is at the moment.
Starsky, I hear what you're saying. However, I believe Jesus would say to turn the other cheek and give her whatever she asks for. That material things don't mater. That I should forgive her for all of her transgressions and pray for her heart to soften.
I believe in God, but I'm having a hard time understanding what His master plan is at the moment.
We each have a different understanding of our Lord then. Even as He forgave the adulteress, he also said "Go and sin no more," and He also knew how to summon up His righteous indignation and throw over the moneychangers' tables when they were defiling the temple.
When it's just your pride or dignity, and doesn't affect other innocents, then YES, we are to turn the other cheek. And we're NEVER to be a jerk or an a-hole. But I do believe that as Christians we are allowed to (expected to?) protect our households, our finances, and certainly our families.
Also, it depends on if you believe that it's best for HER to give her everything she claims to want, or -- if in her current condition -- she is more like a child and you don't just give them what you know isn't good for them?
Sheltering her from the natural consequences of her own poor choices (sin, if you choose) is neither good for you OR her.
Starsky
Let me also try to convey to you a more personal example, Kramer.
For years, thru first a sex-starved marriage and then eventually my wife's affair and deceit (and our near-divorce), I used to pray -- yea, CRY OUT -- to God to save me. Rescue me, from the pain of my wife's lack of affection, from the pain of her betrayal. "Change her heart" I used to BEG of Him. "Cause her to _______, and to see ________." That sort of thing.
For like 15 YEARS.
Through the pain of our sitch in 2007-09 -- pain that I wouldn't intentionally WISH on ANYBODY -- there did come a lot of personal GROWTH, for both of us. And a big part of that growth for me was finally realizing that maybe GOD WANTED ME TO DO SOMETHING, and not just cry out to Him.
Slowly, I rediscovered my center . . . my very integrity. And I fought -- I fought for my wife and for our family, with every ounce of my being. I learned to confront, to establish and enforce boundaries, to protect myself financially and legally and NONE of that came naturally to me. STILL doesn't. By nature, I'm am a classic pleaser/"Mr. Nice Guy" type believe it or not. But I kept getting this picture of the joke about the guy that is on the roof of his house, in the rising flood waters, and God sends the three boats -- do you know that one? Look it up.
Sometimes, you gotta DO something.
Do Something
Song by Matthew West
I woke up this morning
Saw a world full of trouble now
Thought, how’d we ever get so far down
How’s it ever gonna turn around
So I turned my eyes to Heaven
I thought, “God, why don’t You do something?”
Well, I just couldn’t bear the thought of
People living in poverty
Children sold into slavery
The thought disgusted me
So, I shook my fist at Heaven
Said, “God, why don’t You do something?”
He said, “I did, I created you”
If not us, then who
If not me and you
Right now, it’s time for us to do something
If not now, then when
Will we see an end
To all this pain
It’s not enough to do nothing
It’s time for us to do something
. . .
I'm not entirely sure what to do. I am going to counseling and working on my issues that contributed to her unhappiness, mainly control, selfishness, and rigidity in my thinking. I am trying to not be so anal about things and more "no big thing" attitude instead. I am working at clearing our debts and becoming more fiscally responsible. Notice that I said "our" debts instead of "my" debts. She is just as responsible as I am for this. We BOTH enjoyed the lifestyle that we led.
I am limiting our communication to legal issues only and it is so hard. These past 2 daysI have been cleaning the house after my wife and her youngest son moved out while I was at a conference. It was not an unexpected move, but I certainly did not expect the mess that they left behind. I came across a bunch of old letters and journal entries from her, and it appears that she has been unhappy for a number of years. I wish that she would have confronted me about that so that wecould have worked on our issues instead of blowing up the entire family like she did. I realize that her affair probably was the catalyst for this action, but it would have been nice if I would have been given an opportunity to make things better.
Sandi2 posted a very informative entry about wayward spouse versus walk away wife. I think that my wife is definitely a wayward spouse, and she is deep in the throes of her affair. I do not see it changing anytime soon. I have no choice but to move forward with my life, make my own personal improvements, and protect myself financially/legally.it is so very hard to do this. Everything I do, from going to the grocery store, out to eat, or walking around the neighborhood, reminds me of her and our relationship together. I just got back from Costco, and even that brought back a flood of memories, because of the large size of our family. Now it's just me and her 18-year-old niece living alone in a 4000 square-foot house. Very sad.
I am posting again, and sincerely hope for some feedback.
As mentioned earlier, my wife has now officially moved out into her own place, and filed for divorce in January 2015, although I STILL do not have papers. She continues with her affair, and he is "the love of her life". Sandi posted an excellent entry regarding wayward wife, which is what my wife truly is.
She continues to rewrite history, and is telling everyone how she has been unhappy for years, how controlling and selfish I have been over the years, and that this divorce has been a long time in coming. She fails to mention all of the fun times we had together as a family, how we raised 9 children together in a loving home, how I stayed with her as support during years of legal issues with her children, and much more. I'm sure her plan is to give it enough time so that she can introduce OM, and tell people that they got together after she divorced me.
I am still up and down with my emotions, but am now accepting that our marriage is over, and that the woman that I married is no longer there. We have separated accounts and bills, and are moving forward in this manner. I am still very sad and hold out whatever slim hope there is for reconciliation, but I am also a realist and must deal with what is, not what I wish.
Here's my question:
Is it normal for WW to completely turn their back on everything related to the marriage? She has not contacted my children or grandchildren since I discovered her affair, and they were always so close. My daughter's birthday was yesteday, and not even a text from my wife. She left behind all of our pictures when she left, and even the clothes that she wore on our vacations. This just seems so angry, spiteful, sad, and selfish on so many levels.
I suppose a silver lining would be that this behavior convinces me that my wife is no longer who I thought she was, and I do not like the person that has replaced her.
Not usually, but it's not rare, either. Maybe 10% of the time?
The "good side" to that coin, if there is one, is -- to me, anyway -- it would show that she's still highly conflicted about the choice she is making. Otherwise, she wouldn't try to "wall off" so many people she formerly cared about.
Starsky
Hey Kramer,
Is it normal? I don't know that there's any true normal in these situations. But I will say that it doesn't sound unusual. My STBX left with just his clothes. He didn't take a lot of his personal possessions that predate our marriage. He was very close to my parents and doesn't speak to them anymore. He barely speaks to his own family and basically just responds to texts from his mother. Happily he still spends time with our young children. But that's about it. So, what your wife is doing, sadly, is not that unusual.
Not usually, but it's not rare, either. Maybe 10% of the time?
The "good side" to that coin, if there is one, is -- to me, anyway -- it would show that she's still highly conflicted about the choice she is making. Otherwise, she wouldn't try to "wall off" so many people she formerly cared about.
Starsky
Just curiously, how do you read that she is conflicted? To me, it seems that she is just hateful and wants no reminders of our 17 years together. I honestly wonder if she will ever speak with me or my family ever again once divorce is final. Just 6 months ago we were all together as a family, laughing and playing games together. Sigh.
My H is the same. Turned his back on the mum he was so close with and our 9 month old baby. It's like he wants nothing to do with any part of our family anymore. I've wondered if it's depression
Newest developments:
I am so upset, frustrated, sad, and angry right now. Add confused to the mix as well. I could really use some insight and advice from you all.
As I have mentioned in previous posts, wife has now moved out to a new house and filed for divorce (January), although I still have not been served. I have been trying to limit conversations to strictly legal issues and am working on moving forward in my life. I continue with IC and GAL, and am still a part of her children's lives. She has completely written my children off since January.
Weird dynamics at play recently. We will be emailing or texting about a legal issue, and she goes off on a tangent. Most recently she says that I am always travelling, and she would never do that without me. WTF? You filed for divorce and moved out. You are still seeing OM.
She has dragged her feet and refused to provide her input regarding division of property. There was some verbal agreement on most items, and I took those items and placed them in storage before she moved. We have an SUV that is in both of our names, and we both want it. We each have our own cars, but I use the SUV to transport my bicycle for riding, and have also been using it for moving things recently. When she left, she took it with her. I didn't fight her, but told her that this would need to be negotiated as part of the divorce proceedings. I have been telling her for 3-4 days that I needed to use it, and she has not responded. I went to her house and got it last night with my spare key. Would you believe that she had placed a steering wheel lock on it? Lucky for me, it was not sized correctly, and was easily removed. I did my moving, and she then sent her 17 year old son to my house to retrieve the vehicle that night. No conversations with me. I had a lengthy talk with him, and although he was quite angry, he eventually settled down. She is using him as her pawn and involving him in things that should be between me and her. That is reprehensible, as far as I am concerned. I let him take the SUV because I did not want to escalate the drama. I emailed her and texted her, and told her that we needed to talk, and she didn't respond.
I called her this morning, and we had a lengthy conversation. She (of course) denied knowing anything about what happened. She denied receiving my texts regarding use of the vehicle. She tried to use guilt by saying that I was being selfish, and should let her have the vehicle (as well as me take most of our bills) because I treated her so poorly during our marriage. Again, WTF? I reminded her that if she was truly that unhappy for so long, that she should have done something about it at the time. She gave no inkling of being miseable until I discovered her affair. Then it was full steam ahead with moving, divorce, and rewriting history. I also reminded her that it was her that initiated divorce proceedings, and that I am simply responding. I have not yelled or been disrespectful, but I have been very clinical and regimented with my responses. California is a community property state, and our assets and bills will be divided equally. I refuse to be guilted into taking more than my fair share of the bills, and I will also be petitioning for half of her retirement. Please keep in mind that I NEVER would have responded like this until she filed divorce and had her affair. I explained to her that these are unpleasant things to discuss, but that they are a necessary part of the divorce process.
My frustrations are multiple:
1. Why does she keep trying to make me feel guilty about moving forward with my life, after she initiated these proceedings?
2. How can I have these conversations with her without coming across as a d1ck?
3. How can I maintain the high road without being drawn into petty side arguments about our relationship issues?
That's it for now. Any insight would be most appreciated. We are supposed to talk again tonight, but who knows if that will happen?
Guys, please. I could really use some help here. I have been trying to hold strong, and don's want to backslide when we talk later. It may seem by the tone of my posts that I want to move forward with divorce. I do NOT want that, but I can't change or control what she does. I can only control my actions.
I want to be firm and detached without coming across as mean and indifferent. Everything is stacked against me at the moment, but I still hold out the slimmest of hopes that our R can be resuscitated and reborn.
Until then, I have to move forward in my life and improve myself.
Kramer, I am not a vet. All I can tell you is I feel for you. It is hard to know what to do. But I have just recently found out how to start thinking about myself in this mess and my children. My wife is throwing the guilt trip on me also. I really got it tonight when I told her my plans for the next week. But I am thinking of myself now just like she has thought about herself all this time. I have also come to terms with whatever happens. I don't want a divorce either. But I also don't want to be someone plan b or share my wife with someone else. Maybe you should decide what YOU want. Not sure if that helps, but we are here for you. Hopefully some of the vets will help you out also.
She texted me last night and was very friendly. Said that her son was cooking burgers, and that she missed my cooking. (I did all the cooking in our house, and I'm good at it). I told her that I missed cooking for everyone.
Told her that I needed SUV this weekend, and she asked if I was going to the coast. I responded with a simple No.
I'm doing my best to GAL and remain fairly dark, but the depression is mounting. I don't want to be cooking for 1 person or doing things alone. I loved being part of a family and being married. I'm good with others in a relationship, and do not like being single. This [censored].
It's ironic. These past few years, I was looking forward to when the kids all got old enough to move out so that me and my wife could reconnect and do things together, just the 2 of us. However, she was also looking forward to the kids getting older, so that she could leave me and start fresh without obligations.
More thoughts...
As I mentioned earlier, I am a PA and work in Internal Medicine and Palliative Care. I deal with elderly patients all day long, and really enjoy my job.
It saddens me so much to see these elderly couples come in holding hands and showing genuine concern for each other, and realizing that I will not be able to do the same when I get older. Chances are that these people also had marital problems, but chose to work things out instead of taking the easy way out with divorce. I so wanted to grow old with my wife and be able to look back at our long life together. I feel so cheated.
Im sorry you feel cheated. If its any consolation, I feel the exact same way. I really thought I would ride off into the sunset. Sadly life does not always go according to our plans.
However, that need not be the end of our stories, who knows how they will turn out???? It's up to us!
Peace
Hey Kramer- A few thoughts here:
You say..
I'm doing my best to GAL and remain fairly dark, but the depression is mounting
But your posts are peppered with texts and conversations you have with her.
1. Why does she keep trying to make me feel guilty about moving forward with my life, after she initiated these proceedings?
2. How can I have these conversations with her without coming across as a d1ck?
3. How can I maintain the high road without being drawn into petty side arguments about our relationship issues?
I don't think you're really dark, Kramer. Do you have a L? I know you said you haven't been served - but it sounds to me like all these conversations about legal issues and the SUV should be handled by lawyers.
That would be my response to your #2 and #3. Stop having the conversations. You don't have young children together so there shouldn't be much to talk about.
As to #1 - these types of things exist in all the situations with a WAS. It's justification to make them feel better about their actions.
Just my .02
Im sorry you feel cheated. If its any consolation, I feel the exact same way. I really thought I would ride off into the sunset. Sadly life does not always go according to our plans.
However, that need not be the end of our stories, who knows how they will turn out???? It's up to us!
Peace
Glad to know I'm not the only one, FOOLISH. I guess that's the real lesson here: learning how to be better people regardless of how R turns out.
Hey Kramer- A few thoughts here:
You say..
I'm doing my best to GAL and remain fairly dark, but the depression is mounting
But your posts are peppered with texts and conversations you have with her.
1. Why does she keep trying to make me feel guilty about moving forward with my life, after she initiated these proceedings?
2. How can I have these conversations with her without coming across as a d1ck?
3. How can I maintain the high road without being drawn into petty side arguments about our relationship issues?
I don't think you're really dark, Kramer. Do you have a L? I know you said you haven't been served - but it sounds to me like all these conversations about legal issues and the SUV should be handled by lawyers.
That would be my response to your #2 and #3. Stop having the conversations. You don't have young children together so there shouldn't be much to talk about.
As to #1 - these types of things exist in all the situations with a WAS. It's justification to make them feel better about their actions.
Just my .02
raliced,
You are probably right. I am trying to justify my communication with her by trying to limit things to legal issues, but it is still fairly regular communication. In my mind, I am staying dark by not pleading, bargaining, etc but in reality I am still in regular cionversation with her.
Is it best to go COMPLETELY dark? Part of me worries that this will push her away once and for all, but then again, she's pretty much gone already.
Regarding lawyer, no I do not have one yet. Our case is so straightforward that it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to spend $5000 on a lawyer. However, it would allow me to defer the legal conversations and get me out of the loop.
Kramer, I am not a vet. All I can tell you is I feel for you. It is hard to know what to do. But I have just recently found out how to start thinking about myself in this mess and my children. My wife is throwing the guilt trip on me also. I really got it tonight when I told her my plans for the next week. But I am thinking of myself now just like she has thought about herself all this time. I have also come to terms with whatever happens. I don't want a divorce either. But I also don't want to be someone plan b or share my wife with someone else. Maybe you should decide what YOU want. Not sure if that helps, but we are here for you. Hopefully some of the vets will help you out also.
Joe,
Thanks for chiming in. I agree that I need to start doing things for myself, and to quit thinking as a married person. It is so hard to do, because that's what I identify myself as. Definitely a learning process.
Is it best to go COMPLETELY dark? Part of me worries that this will push her away once and for all, but then again, she's pretty much gone already.
Regarding lawyer, no I do not have one yet. Our case is so straightforward that it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to spend $5000 on a lawyer. However, it would allow me to defer the legal conversations and get me out of the loop.
Kramer- I'm no Vet and would defer to one here - but the conversations with your wife don't seem to be helping anything, right? I'd be inclined to at least try more darkness.
As to the lawyer, yes your situation may be straight forward. But as an outsider reading about you retrieving an SUV by removing the steering wheel lock and her sending her son to retrieve it...I dunno....that sounds like lawyer territory to me.
raliced,
You make a lot of sense. I have been dealing with such a high level of dysfunction within her family for so long that this just seems normal. It obviously is not. That's also part of my frustration in our sitch. I am as straight laced and non-confrontational as they come, and have stood by her and provided emotional support for years during legal issues with her kids. I have always justified my actions by rationalizing that you support your family, no matter what. In reality, I'm beginning to realize that our moral compasses are polar opposites. She was always a loving, kind, and sweet person when we were married, but perhaps this is the real person underneath?
Well, it finally happened. I got officially served divorce papers yesterday. She had filed on Jan 9, 2015, and I had held out hope that she was having second thoughts about going through with it. In retrospect, that was pretty stupid of me. I should have been looking at the facts: she moved out into her own place, she is still with OM, and she has not made any attempts to reconcile with me.
We had a financial meeting yesterday, and it was the first time I have seen her in over a month. She brought the process server with her because she knew that I would be present and would not be able to leave. Score 1 for her! We made it through the meeting, and I was cordial but not overly friendly (especially after being served papers).
We walked to our cars together, and when we got to her car, she became tearful and asked why I was so cold. I calmy looked at her, and said "Really? You actually have the nerve to ask me that?" More tears, and a lengthy conversation ensued thereafter. She apologized for having an affair and lying to me, and said that I didn't deserve that treatment. I apologized for my emotional distance that led to her feelings, and opened the door for her affair. Of course, I was hoping for some sort of spark or epiphany that she wanted to fix things between us, but it never came. She went on and on about how tough it was for her financially to live alone, and how busy she was, and how she was sleeping on an air mattress...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. I reminded her that it was HER that initiated this whole process and had the affair, but of course it did not register with her. It was a cathartic conversation, and involved tears on both our parts. We ended with a hug and went our separate ways.
I have replayed the interaction many times since then. Initially, I was thinking that there was some doubts entering into her head regarding divorce and OM, as evidenced by the crying, expressions of loneliness and sadness, and her living alone vs full time with OM. But then, I realized that she purposefully brought her process server with her to the meeting. If she were truly having doubts about divorce, then she would not have done that. I suspect that the tears and talk of "loneliness" were all script, and meant to play on my heartstrings, and keep me hanging on. And it worked, at least for the short term.
I also find it interesting that she remains adamant that we not get the lawyers involved, and she insists that we can work things out between us without lawyers. A quick review of her papers indicate that she expects me to take on all the debt and for us each to keep our own retirements. She conveniently omitted her $150,000 403B account, while listing my military retirement and asking for half, even though we were only married for the last 2 years of military service. Obviously, she is trying to stick it to me. California is a community property 50/50 state, and our case is very straightforward without biological children or property. I really do not relish the thought of hiring a lawyer since the end result will be the same, but it looks like I will not have a choice since there is such a disparity.
I am hoping others can offer their opinion regarding this most recent interaction. Am I wrong to write this off as guilt on her part and following script? Am I wrong in turning things over to lawyer and completely pissing her off, and driving her further away? Am I missing signs of her having second thoughts?
Sandi, I am hoping you will weigh in as well, with your first hand knowledge and experience with WW.
Thank you all!
Hire the best, most bada$$, cutthroat "men's rights" family law attorney you can afford.
You won't regret it. Remain cordial and courteous with her, but refer EVERYTHING to your attorney.
There's a reason why they put that little "v" between the names of the parties. Ours is, by its design, an adversarial legal system.
I'm sorry, Kramer. At least you have clarity now.
starsky
Hi Kramer, it doesn't read to me as though she's having second thoughts right now. In the longer term though - who knows - D or not.
Presumably you are going to see a L as you have concerns about some of what she is suggesting?
Sorry you had a tough day....
Am I wrong in turning things over to lawyer and completely pissing her off, and driving her further away?
Kramer, she just served you with divorce papers. How much "further away" can she be, really?
NO, she's not having second thoughts. Don't keep making the same mistake you've been making since January. Accept it for what it is, and move on. I know it's killing you, but it will NOT kill you and in fact you will emerge STRONGER from this, I promise you.
I hear what you are all saying, and I know it is the correct advice. I just keep fixating on the bread crumbs that she drops. She says she doesn't want anybody at work to know she is divorcing. She wants to keep my last name. She wants to keep our family gym membership together and sees no problem with us exercising at the same time. She wants to keep our car insurance together because it is cheaper (for her, not me). She talks about never wanting or seeing herself divorced at this age (and yet it is her who initiated it). And of course, the tears.
She only sees OM every other weekend and her kids want nothing to do with him. He doesn't like animal or travelling, both of which my wife and I love. I'm taller and better looking than he is. And yet, here we are. WTF???
She needs to know that if you're out, you're OUT. If you divorce (and she has now, officially, FIRED you as her husband) you will be of course seeking a new relationship at some point, and no emotionally healthy woman is going to tolerate a boyfriend who's still totally entangled -- emotionally and financially -- with his ex-wife, beyond certain realistic necessities. You should tell her that this isn't what you wanted, but she should understand that when you're done, you're DONE.
Do you have a good attorney yet? When I asked you previously, I think you just said you were getting legal advice on the side, from a friend or something. It's time to retain a bulldog, and protect your interests.
Starsky
"I just keep fixating on the bread crumbs that she drops. She says she doesn't want anybody at work to know she is divorcing. She wants to keep my last name. She wants to keep our family gym membership together and sees no problem with us exercising at the same time. She wants to keep our car insurance together because it is cheaper (for her, not me). She talks about never wanting or seeing herself divorced at this age.."
Kramer, I think the above are:
a) Indicators of her own negative feelings about D, and embarrasment at being D
b) Convenience and saving money
None of what you post above should give you reason to hope she may be having second thoughts. I would get myself a good L and stop worrying about what she may think..
Kramer,
Here's the thing about second thoughts. They're just thoughts. Probably every WAS has at least some. At this stage, when they have walked away, moved out and served you with divorce papers, the only thing that counts is action.
BTW - I'm in California too. It was my understanding that the only person who couldn't serve me with papers was my spouse.
Kramer, I think the above are:
a) Indicators of her own negative feelings about D, and embarrasment at being D
b) Convenience and saving money
None of what you post above should give you reason to hope she may be having second thoughts. I would get myself a good L and stop worrying about what she may think..
I would agree with you. I am her 4th husband, though. I think the embarrassment stems from the fact that she is divorcing because of affair, not because she is embarrassed by divorce. That, plus the fact that I am a nice guy, and she never even tried to get through our issues. Never even a thought of MC, just straight to divorce. I brought that up to her, and her response was that a loving relationship should not require outside intervention or counseling. I wholeheartedly disagree. Love is a feeling, but a true and solid relationship requires hard work, dedication, maintenance, and sometimes outside intervention.
Perhaps 3 previous marriages should have been a red flag...
SIGH.
Kramer,
Here's the thing about second thoughts. They're just thoughts. Probably every WAS has at least some. At this stage, when they have walked away, moved out and served you with divorce papers, the only thing that counts is action.
BTW - I'm in California too. It was my understanding that the only person who couldn't serve me with papers was my spouse.
That is correct. She brought the process server with her to our appointment, and he then served me.
Hi Kramer, Thanks for posting on my thread, I've just caught up on yours.
Sorry you find yourself here, but you're in the right place.
I'd urge you to listen to Starsky's posts in particular regarding a L.
Don't be afraid of pushing W away or pi$$ing her off. Get the best L you possibly can A.S.A.P. Time to realise that she threw your M under a bus by her actions, and now she wants to reverse over it by not being fair financially. If you weren't before, NOW you can detach properly.
Time to get your game face on.
Thanks everybody for your good and heartfelt advice. I agree that a lawyer is going to be necessary in order to protect my interests. I have an appointment in Wednesday and will file my disputed reply to dissolution at that time. I have no doubt as to the outcome, since california is 50/50 community property for debts and assets, but I don't relish the thought of spending $3000-$10,000 each. Ugh.
I think the biggest benefit of getting a lawyer, though, will be the ability to extricate myself from the situation and allow me to detach properly and completely. Time for me to stop thinking about what should be, and look at what is.
I'm on a roll. I'm having the locksmith come over today to rekey all of the doors. My STBXW and all her kids have keys currently. I'm moving forward with my life as a single person, however reluctantly.
On a weird note, I was just cleaning the house, and came across an old copy of Divorcd Busting from 2010. We weren't talking about divorce then, but there must have been some friction for me to have bought the book. Heck, who knows? Maybe it WASN'T me that bought it. Weird. And sad.
Well, I have initiated needed changes in my attitude and am moving forward understanding that my relationship is ending in divorce. I will still hold out the slimmest of hopes that reconciliation may be an option down the road, but I now know that my old relationship is dead. My wife's actions with the affair, coupled with moving out and filing divorce, have been the 2 x 4 that I needed to make this realization.
While her affair and subsequent actions are the impetus for the final outcome, I must also take responsibility for my own actions as well. I now realize that I treated her poorly for years. I would get so angry at her and the kids for not keeping things clean and organized around the house. I would feel disrespected if people didn't do what I thought needed to be done. I was controlling. I was moody. I was critical. I loved my wife and my family, but I did not do a good job of showing it. Toward the end, we argued frequently, but she always backed down. I took this to mean that I was correct in my actions. How wrong I was.
I thought she would never leave, but I did not give her a reason to stay. That is the irony. Now I have a spotless house and no stress, but I am totally alone.
I had really hoped for some feedback this weekend. I appreciate the posts and responses that have been made this far. You have helped me more than you realize during this whole sorry ordeal. Even though I understand the reality of my situation, it doesn't make it any easier. Everything I do reminds me of my wife and our relationship, and I am so very sad. I keep wanting to send just one more email, but it's all been said before and would serve no purpose. So I keep on moving forward, treading water, and hoping that the nightmare ends soon.
Sorry to hear about your stitch. Whenever I read about a WW pressing her H not to bother with lawyers, it's usually b/c she plans to get more than she knows she could if he has legal representation.
Sorry to hear about your stitch. Whenever I read about a WW pressing her H not to bother with lawyers, it's usually b/c she plans to get more than she knows she could if he has legal representation.
Sandi,
I agree wholeheartedly. In this case, about $200k.
Let me ask you something else, based on your unique WW insight. My W has grown so cold and detached since her A in Septembrr and my discovery on NYE. Instead of trying to fix our problems, she jumped straight to D upon discovery and has not wavered. At first, I assumed that it was so she could be with OM, and to mitigate her guilt. Indeed, she is already telling people at work that she is divorcing me because she has been miserable for years, and has "just met" this other guy.
However, it doesn't make sense. She now has to work every other weekend to pay bills, and only sees OM every other weekend. She actually sees him less now than when they were sneaking around. Does she truly hate/resent me that much to want to divorce so quick? Or is she biding her time to make herself look less guilty? Or perhaps OM is having doubts at a full-on relationship now that the secret's out.
Regardless of reason, is there anything that I can/should be doing differently? I am no longer communicating with her and will have L handle divorce. This will pi$$ her off and I'm sure I won't hear anything from her ever again, other than hate and spew.
Right now, "hate and spew" is going to be what you get from her regardless, Kramer. So you may as well protect yourself financially -- especially your long-term financial FUTURE.
In every situation, and every interaction with her, strive to DO THE RIGHT THING. Rather than worrying "How will she react? Will she be angry? How will her reaction make ME feel?"
Do the thing that God Himself would have you do, if He were standing right in front of you.
Starsky
Starsky, I really appreciate your blunt words and common sense advice. I truly do. However, you say do the right thing. Do what God would do. Let me ask you if God would get a lawyer and take her to court for money. Would God cancel our family insurance policy and make her get her own? Would God change the locks on the house?
I have done all of these as a result of her filing for divorce. Not to be vindictive, but because I must protect myself and don't want to be taken advantage of.
Yes, I do believe that God allows us the right of self-defense. (Even the Pope recently, who is basically pacifist, talked about the legitimate cause of doing what was necessary to wipe out ISIS).
God reads our hearts. If what we do legally, we do to protect ourselves because we have been attacked, and we do it to protect our families' financial and emotional security, then . . . yes, I think God would tell me that's "the right thing to do."
To pick a specific item for example, I think it's reasonable to inform a wayward spouse that you are going to be removing them from your insurance policy, but giving them, say, 90 days in which to get their own (longer time frame because this is a pretty major item). A cellphone that's being used to conduct their affair?? . . . not so much -- maybe 24 hours' notice.
I could look up the biblical justification for all of the above (one that comes immediately to mind is "There is wisdom in many counselors," Proverbs 24:6), but I do think it's pretty mainstream Christian thought.
Starsky
Update:
Just a quick update regarding my life moving forward. I went to San Francisco on Sunday and had a great time. I came back to one of the upstairs bathroom toilets overflowing. I asked my niece what happened, and she said it had been running for a few hours after it got clogged. She had thought she turned off the water valve, but it was not completely shut off. As you might imagine, there was quite a mess upstairs. The real problem, however, is downstairs. There is extensive water damage to 3 different rooms, floors, ceilings, and walls. Initial estimate is $25,000.
I bring this up to make a point as to how I have changed as a person. 6 months ago, I would have went ballistic and been mad at everybody. Yelling, screaming, and berating. In this instance, I calmy told her that she should have called me and checked to make sure the water was all the way off. This was an accident, and as bad as it is, that's what insurance is for.
Of course, there is nobody to see my response, but that's kind of the point. I have changed and softened as a person, and not just to show somebody how much I have changed.
And for what it's worth, my STBXW knows nothing about it.
I am hoping that I can get some feedback regarding what to do next in my situation:
Quick recap:
Sep-Dec 2014: friction, strife, and arguing in M.
New Years Eve: I discover PA since September.
1/9/15: she files divorce and I leave house.
3/18/15: I finally get served D papers. She gets own place and is still seeing OM.
I have been backing off on all non essential communication for the last month. She accuses me of being distant and hateful, even though I have never badmouthed her , yelled at her, or been overtly mean. I am distant and matter of fact in my communication with her.
She has absolutely no interest in reconciliation and is moving full force ahead with divorce. She expects me to take on all the debt and does not want me to touch her retirement, which is MUCH larger than mine. I have been advised by many people on this board to get a lawyer ASAP and to protect my assets and future.
I have spoken with lawyer, and his advice was to speak with STBXW and try to get this done between us, thus saving a lot of money. Our case (California) is very straightforward (50/50 for all debts and assets), and we have no children between us and no property. He is perfectly willing to take my money, but the result will be the same.
Would it be against DB protocol to reach out to her and pass on this information? She has always been a sensible and smart person in the past, but who knows where she is at as a WW. Part of me wants to save the money and do this between us, but another part is just so fed up and tired of the pain and stess of dealing with her.
I cannot stop divorce, as much as I would like to. The end result will be the same, with or without lawyers.
Help!!!
Hey Kramer -
Here -would be my suggestion. First - it's certainly reasonable to apprach your STBXW (maybe in writing) and say that while you do not want a divorce, you will protect your rights and assets. However - contesting everything with lawyers will cost you both money you do not have, You can share what your lawyer told you and then you might consider attaching some of the forms that would be filed with the court. I'm in California and had to fill them out - you can google them to find them. They are very straight forward and easy to read. You list all your assets and debts - and indicate how you are suggesting they be split and then they are added up on the bottom line. I'm guessing she may have already given you her version.
Good Luck.
She did give me her version, which attributed all the debt to me. She works at UCDAVIS, which has a 3 part retirement consisting of defined benefit (pension, defined contribution (403b), and tax deferred component. She only listed the tax deferred (30k), and neglected to mention 403b (150k) and pension (4500/month at age 55). While I never dreamed that I would be in this situation, I am legally entitled to half of that, which may be worth 500k with life expectancy of 80. I can not and will not just ignore that, especially since it was her actions that led us to this point.
She has grown so hateful towards me and the D doesn't seem to faze her at all. All she seems to care about is ending our relationship and moving forward with OM. She wants things to end quickly with me so that the timetable gets blurred regarding when she got together with OM. Her people at work already think that she left me in December because I was so horrible, and she was lucky to meet OM AFTER she left me vs the reality of starting an affair in September.
I am just so sad, depressed, and emotionally drained. I just want this to be over and pick up the pieces of my shattered life. I don't want divorce but have no choice.
Hi Kramer
Sorry for what is happening right now. I would Slooooow things down as much as you can without appearing openly obstructive. Tell your L that you don't want to D and ask them to work at the slowest pace they feel they can.
This all gives things some time. Time for the old PEAs to subside a little, time for the 'rosy edge' to get rubbed off and so on. Many A's combust in relatively short timescales as they are fragile by nature and the fantasy wears off. Not all, but many. It also gives you time to work on you.
You say you have no choice. But there are some choices and control you do have, so take hold of those and run with it. ((Kramer))
I'm not sure how much I can slow things down, but will certainly try. I will be filing my response to her divorce petition within the allotted 30 days, and it will be conflicted from hers. This will make our case contested. California already has a mandatory 6 month waiting period from the day that I was served, so I'm not sure how to extend that. Perhaps request and drag out mediation?
Of course I will continue to work on me. I have already made great strides and fully accept my part in our relationship issues. Currently, I am not speaking with her other than legal issues. When I do communicate, it is via text or email. I keep my responses short and business-like in nature. I cook dinner for her adult kids every week, and I keep in contact with them for support. I do not bring up their mother with them, only to say that I will not badmouth her and that I love her. Her kids want nothing to do with OM, and she seems content to stay with him on weekends as a fantasy parallel life.
I'm not sure what else to do.
Well, I sent the email. Here it is; thoughts?
XXX,
I am trying to respond to your divorce petition. While I don't want this divorce, I realize it is for the best under these circumstances and I will be better off because of it. I just want to end this chapter and move forward.
I have not yet retained a lawyer, but I did speak with one. He advised me to talk with you and to negotiate things between us because it is very straightforward.
California law is 50/50 for all assets and debts, and I am agreeable to that. We have already divided property with exception of Expedition. We have agreed to take our own vehicles and student loans. The only thing left to do is split the debts and retirements.
I only have 30 days to respond to your divorce petition, so if you want to work with me on a negotiated settlement, I will need a signed form from you extending that deadline.
There is no hidden agenda here. I am willing to work with you in order to save us each unnecessary lawyer fees. However, I will not accept anything less than 50/50, which is the law. The end result will be the same with or without legal representation. You are a smart person. You know this is true.
Please let me know if you are willing to work together. Time is of the essence, so I will need an answer by March 31.
XXX
Sent from my iPhone
Kramer,
I think your note is fine, and certainly reasonable. I'll be anxious to see how she responds.
My only other thought on this is somewhat the opposite of the "go slowwww" thing, but only in this instance: if she balks at the 50/50 agreement, and if it's true as you say that she seems HELL-BENT on getting free of you QUICKLY, even up to not retaining an attorney for herself, then I might advise you to put together a "sweetheart" deal that is more than 50/50 Kramer, and tell her THAT is the only agreement that you will move quickly on, and anything less -- now that she's being difficult (and this is assuming she IS difficult about your 50/50 proposition) you are going to DRAG YOUR FEET AS LONG AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN on anything other than the sweetheart deal.
I have seen occasions of wayward spouses SO anxious to get out of the marriage -- often with pressure coming from their OM/OW -- that they are willing to sign a sweetheart deal that greatly favors the betrayed spouse.
Just a thought.
Starsky
I hear you Starsky. I will let you know what she says.
It certainly looks like I have absolutely NO chance of saving my relationship and reconciling. I will continue on with going dark and LRT, but it's pretty hopeless.