Awake early this morning, texted WAW saying if they're coming down to London for WAW to meet up with one of her old school friends, I can take the boys for the afternoon.
Went for a run. Didn't overdo it this time, just a mile and a half in 15 mins. Down the hill and back up again.
Met up in London. Reminded myself that whatever I felt, look happy. Brief handover before me and the boys went to the Science Museum then met up with WAW at the station. Gave her a card, some chocs and a book token for her birthday yesterday. Cordial but short handover before I said I'll be off then. They had to wait for 20mins for the next train but i didn't hang around or look back.
And after that met up with three old friends for a few jars and a curry before heading back to the flat.
Hi OD - you're sounding pretty good my friend. Good interaction with W and GAL. Hopefully you left the station sauntering confidently! :-)
I agree. Sounds like Old Dog has got a spring in his step!
Wonderful to hear OD.
Real GAL, London for a day. How wonderful.
Are you a real ale buff?
V
Sauntering confidently? But of course. And with a spring :-)
Not an ale buff in any way. Never liked lager or beer except German Weissbeer. I do like cider though and boy does the Bree Louise (near Euston) do scrumpy.
Sauntering confidently? But of course. And with a spring :-)
Not an ale buff in any way. Never liked lager or beer except German Weissbeer. I do like cider though and boy does the Bree Louise (near Euston) do scrumpy.
Nice tip OD
I used to go to the little India area near Euston and just up from Pancreas (deliberate) station, for a curry. Lots of veg curry houses including Ravi but haven't done that for 3 or 4 years. Good to know there is a decent pub there doing cider.
V
That's it. Drummond St. The Bree Louise is parallel. On the street opposite the side entrance to Euston on the west side. They have proper beers as well as cider.
So what's the plan this week, Old Dog? Do you have a regular schedule set up with IC?
The plan tonight is Fat Tursday. The culmination of a 5 day music fest. No one famous, just local bands.
Tomorrow I'm sacrificing mindfulness for football and the pub.
Looks like I'll be staying down on the South Coast for another weekend as WAW rang to say she wants to take the boys to her mums.
Mind you, I can't keep her out of my mind.
OD, I'm sure a combination of mindfulness, football and the pub is a healthy one in life. It may be helpful that you have another weekend separate, so that you can keep moving forwards and regrouping. I have heard from my H today. He lost his job yesterday, and has finally told me our R is over. Just thinking about how to respond.
Hope you come up with some nice GAL plans for yourself this weekend! :-)
Uh! Sorry to hear you news Toots. That's rough.
How to respond? Hmmm. How about 'oh shove it up your xxxx'? Is that acceptable?
Yup. GAL is the answer. More phone calls then. I wish my kids would charge their phones / turn them on / answer the home phone / respond to Skype / carrier pigeon etc
They are kids.
Just text!
V
OD m Ii e with my four kids. Four mobiles And a landline , do they answer , I wish. Don't take it to heart mate there kids , simple as that.
Take care. Rd
Sorry should say I live with my four kids
Sorry should say I live with my four kids
And four mobiles!
V
Oh I know. I don't take it to heart. I know they've got other things on their mind. They don't seem to be as obsessed by phones as many others though which means I have to speak to WAW on the landline first if only to say let me speak to one of them.
Felt some more anger towards WAW this morning for her intransigence. And a bit of frustration that although I tried to our her in a mental box in the top shelf, she's still peeking out at me.
I've spent a large part of the last few days reading Train's story. Not quite finished yet though.
But today I woke up at a low ebb. Why does that happen? Trying to breathe through it but even that is difficult with a cold.
Today is supposed to be a GAL day as this evening I'm off to see a band I used to pay in back in the day.
How delicious, a band back in the day?
Will they let you do a guest number......
Do have some wonderful GAL fun
V
Ha. No they won't. I'll be lucky if I get a backstage pass: I didn't last time.
I'll try and have fun but I am feeling so rough today: mentally and physically.
I've also got to figure out the best way to say to WAW I've paid £x into the joint account this month (a substantial decrease) and I want you to do the same (a minor increase). I will not subsidise you any longer.
Hi OD, I hope you feel better by this evening. Nothing like the prospect of a good gig to pep you up. I think V is right and you should leap on stage, wrestle a guitar off someone and play a number. If guitar is your instrument that is - otherwise it may not be a great move!
Hope you have a great time anyway....any chance of rejoining the band or something similar OD??
I think security would take a dim view of that I'm afraid. And I don't think there's much chance of rejoining either.
I used to play 2nd guitar. The guy that does it now is usually a bass player and actually replaced me on bass in another band I was in when I joined this lot the first time round.
Are you going to look for another band?
BTW have a great time.
V
Hi Vanilla. Thank you for checking up on me.
I'm back home after three weeks. WAW texted me and asked I wanted picking up at the train station. She knows how pissed off I am with her, as she usually just asks if I'm on time, but I said yes. I don t want to be beholden to her but I also don't want to spend an hour in the bus station and another 50 mins on the bus.
I went to see my old band on Monday with a mate and it was great. I stayed overnight at his house and got a life there and back from a work colleague. It was funny, my mate chatted so much I didn't get time to tell him my 'news'.
Wednesday is mindfullness day but I've found the last few sessions haven't been as useful as before. I either almost fall asleep or my mind just wanders at will. I have a better experience with the Mindspace app. I'll keep going though I think because it could be that I'm just so tired and run down due to illness.
Yesterday evening was a leaving session down the pub for two lovely ladies who have been pushed out the door by work. They can't wait to go now though and we all had a good time without getting hammered.
My plan to buy a car this weekend has been postponed because my no claims discount is over two years old and therefore the premium has rocketed. Even the insurance company I work for quoted me a stupid figure. I'll have to check out the specialists.
This weekend I have to broach the fact that so far she hasn't paid a penny into the joint account ... again.
We've also been given a provisional dat for S15's surgery in three weeks time.
Oh and I still haven't finished Train's story.
So WAW has came up to me to see if I'm free. I was posting on here so I said I wasn't. Finally we had this discussion.
Discussed the logistics of S15’s upcoming surgery. Dates, where to stay etc. And then we went on to another difficult discussion.
She is anxious not to cause unrest, especially in the next month when S15 has is op. I said I understand, I am here for him
She mentioned the Skype call I had with Elliott. During the call I had asked if WAW was in or had gone to watch football. S15 went to find out. WAW said she tried to only go out locally maybe for an hour or two but not 100% of the time. She said it caused unrest in them and I didn’t need to check up on her. I said I was just chatting with S15.
Apparently OM works in the next town along now and ‘she could have him round for his tea every night, but that wouldn’t be appropriate’. Damn right!
WAW mentioned if I was having a hard time maybe we could arrange to be at the house at different times but the affair with OM is not blowing over. She doesn’t want to hurt me but there’s nothing she can do about that. Nothing? I held my tongue.
What we said to the boys last October still stands as far as she is concerned. They will not lose either of us blah blah blah.
During these discussions I don’t say too much. She lectures and I say things like I understand, I’m not going to cause a ruction. Maybe that's a bit wet noodleish.
At the end, I brought up the joint account again. She said she finally pad in the same amount as me this morning. I just said good. We can review it after a while. She said it might be tight and she could really afford much more.
I hate her for doing this. For planning this for years and not lifting a finger to try and work on our marriage. Not mentioning it to me at all. For letting it fester until breaking point. Damn her.
Oh and I just remembered she said she wasn't being selfish going out and enjoying herself out locally ... most of the time ... for a couple of hours.
She seems to think she is doing everything she can for the boys. Well apart from working on our marriage. That's obviously OK to jettison.
I want to go to bed because I'm so tired mentally, physically, emotionally but I just started crying again and so I can't just yet because she's in it. Yes I must be back at home and not able to detach sufficiently.
I don't really know what to say except (((Old Dog)))
You're W makes me mad.
Thanks ganb8te. She makes me mad too.
I've been lying awake for a hours thinking how much I hate her and what she's doing now. I think I'll write it down.
OD, sorry you had a tough night. I hope today will be a better one. Do you have some GAL plans? Glad you have a provisional date for surgery now, and so soon! How long will the recovery period be?
Stay strong lovely OD and decide to have a happy day - whatever your W may be up to (((OD)))
Sorry to hear that your W is being like that. I dislike that my W lies about her OM but I think in the end its better than having my face rubbed in it.
I hope you have a better day.
Not too much in the ay of GAL up here. I'm taking the boys over to my mum's this afternoon - my brother lives round the corner - and I'll watch the Wales match with them. I'll try and keep busy until then though.
I expect she'll go out at lunchtime tomorrow to see OM as their team is playing around then. She hasn't told me but it's what I'm expecting.
Who wants to see my hate list? Maybe not for posting after all as it is so depressing.
OD
I have a list and I could have shared it, but decided to convert it as far as I could with flip techniques, reframe it to a more positive frame for V. There is a book I use call Flip it and a tool that allows me to reframe. I think I have shared this already but can post a link if you would like it.
OD I would like you to feel PMA despite your Sitch. You deserve that, the intervening weeks have given OD some detachment, it is for OD a great gift.
Sadly W will take her own time to shake the denial of the harm her actions have taken. She is in the initial behavioural addiction cycle of her A without facing the consequences of it. One day she will have to and as OD gets stronger so this day will come sooner.
OD you have shifted in your attitude to W.
V
Vanilla, you are right. I just took a nice relaxing bath and thought it would be a good thing if I could, as you say, flip each item and use it to my advantage.
May ell posted a link to a reframing site a while back which I did take a look at but I think either I'm not clever enough to do this or I need help and or practice.
One of my hates is that I cannot detach sufficiently but I think it is coming. There has been a definite shift. If it weren't for the boys I would gladly curse the selfish **** all the names under the sun, chainsaw in half everything we own and disappear, never to meet again.
Right, time for breakfast, a haircut and then find stuff to do.
I expect she'll go out at lunchtime tomorrow to see OM as their team is playing around then. She hasn't told me but it's what I'm expecting.
Oh no, I was wrong. She's going out for the night. I just said 'oh right'.
I just re-read MWD's article
Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself.
This seems so sensible but also so far out of reach for me at the moment. How do you get there?
WAW just came in to tell me the cat is booked into the cats home for when we go to S15s operation and they have heated pads for them. I don't want her to talk to me, stop trying to be friendly to me: you just told me half an hour ago that you're going out ****ing some other guy tonight.
And yet you want me to be an 'adult' for the sake of the children. Well **** you, you selfish ****.
This is eating me up but how do you stop?
I wish I could tell you old dog. I truly do. I'd like to know myself. I know its a gradual day by day thing and its a choice we make.
But we both know not forgiving doesn't do us any good, its conceding control of ourselves to someone else.
Best thing I've found is to find an outlet, run til you throw up kind of thing. When I didn't find a healthy outlet I kicked a wall and broke a foot (really not good)
The other thing that helps me (though it does feed other issues admitedly) is empathy. There are only two real explanations behind what she is doing (the whole situation) either 1) she is not a very nice person so why would you want that or 2) she was really hurting and depression, sadness and despair left her vulnerable and desperate. If its the second and I empathise (within myself) I find it settles a little of the anger.
Enough that I can refocus on the kind of man I want to be.
And lastly, what alternative would you prefer to friendly knowing you can't change what she does, just influence how she interacts with you?
Thanks for dropping by Jim. I've written and deleted a couple of posts now but I'm not in a fit state to be constructive at the moment.
This is eating me up but how do you stop?
Honestly the only thing that helped me was No Contact. And you see how angry I am still with the moderately increased contact we've had due to the kids.
Also when the weather was good I made myself go out and try to run. Sometimes my heart was so heavy I could only walk. Sometimes it was so heavy I could walk to a bench, sit and cry, then get up and walk to the next bench and try not to cry. Then I'd jog past two benches and walk to the third one. But I did try to get out and get a lot of exercise.
I made playlists of music that made me feel good about myself. Labug and a few others mentioned some -- Roar by Katy Perry, Brave by Sara Bareilles -- that were inspirational and particular to my sitch. "Tell Me What You See" by the Beatles is a song that I always imagine being a reminder to me that I get to choose how I see the world, and "On Top of the World" by Imagine Dragons was a feeling I aspired to. And of course "Living In the Moment" by Jason Mraz. Those helped me remember what I was (am) aiming for. I just keep adding to the list as I find applicable ones.
Maybe once your son has been through this health issue you'll be able to pull way back from your W and find peace. I can't imagine how hard it is to move with all this hanging over you. I'm sorry.
OD
V believes it is your current phase in the grief process. Anger.
I sense you have moved from denial and are starting to shift.
It will pass, give it time brave one. You are a dad with a precious burden in your hands which will guide and hold you.
OD, your IC is important in your process. I would recommend that you find a couple of safe friends and confidants and let go. You can let go on this board too.
OD this may have been contained for a long time and this is your release.
There is shift for OD.
We need vets with tons of experience and wisdom to advise.
I am sending peace
V
Cadet's new welcome post is so much better now.
I was reading a thread about the stages of the
stages of the LBS which of course fonts in anger. Post 2 by Lostforwords.
I don't know if that's where I am or if it's resentment a couple of stages later on, it's hard to tell. And of course it's not linear either, you can bob around on that Kübler-Ross grief curve looping back and forth.
I'll have a word with my IC. Incidentally I now have an appointment with an NHS provided IC just when I gave up on them and started paying for my own.
As I mentioned before, I've been reading Trains thread and Starsky's help on there with support from Wonka has been amazing. I don't get many vets passing through here but V I think I'm ready for some of it now.
I know I'm impatient to change but I also have great capacity to withstand pain. I learnt this being a passive aggressive, fearful of initiating ... well a whole bunch a things, and waiting for others to make decisions to which I had to react.
I still feel that fear but so want to do it anyway. One of the things I want to do is read my new "I hate you" list to WAW and damn the consequences. I'm not sure that's such a good idea though. It's more of a revenge, I want to hurt you now action.
I agree on that some suggestions by Wonka too that have helped.
I thought Cadet was a mod, so that was a mistake on my part.
I really want to do that cool quote thing that every one else does and I have never mastered it. I hope vets will come to help, they always seem to find shift. My own sitch is more like a slow moving dustcart with very little change just a lot of garbage. In house S such as mine and yours are very hard on the spirit and there is a lot of pain to take.
Your language has changed too OD, and there are stronger words and less excuses.
It is lovely to see and hear.
V
OD, I agree with Maybell on the benefits of both exercise and good music. Both have been good for me.
V: to do the quote box hit "switch to full reply screen" and hit the quote button. A code with the word quote in brackets two times will come up (if I do it you won't be able to see it because it will make the box). Put the text you're quoting between the ][ and watch the magic happen.
I agree OD has grown a lot in the last few months. When he was first here we practically had to cattle prod him to do anything. Once he decided to move though, he started to really own it. And so much of what he's done has been really creative and brave. I for one am so proud of him.
Oh, wait, this is Not So Old Dog's thread. I'm proud of you NSOD!!!
My words have got stronger but I still get lectured at when we have our 'talks'. I'm not very good at arguing or debating. I never went to uni, didn't do well at school because I hated it and refused, passive aggressively, to do any work and so never learnt to analyse stuff and present a cohesive argument.
And I'm still afraid of burning bridges of course.
V, this morning I booked in at the Ceroc weekender at Camber Sands.
There's no point arguing with WAW. Put your energy elsewhere.
My words have got stronger but I still get lectured at when we have our 'talks'. I'm not very good at arguing or debating. I never went to uni, didn't do well at school because I hated it and refused, passive aggressively, to do any work and so never learnt to analyse stuff and present a cohesive argument.
Old Dog- I agree there's not much use trying to be persuasive right now. However you are in control of being on the receiving end of lectures.
Early in my career I managed a call center. The employees weren't allowed to hang up on callers no matter how rude or abusive they got. So we trained them (in the very worst situations) to say "I'm going to have to put you on hold for a few moments until you can lower your voice and not use profanity when speaking to me".
The equivalent in the real world is just to say you aren't going to continue the conversation unless the other person can be respectful. In your case I think it would sound somthing like "W, I can see this is important and I would like to continue this conversation, but it feels like you are lecturing me and telling me what to do, so I won't be able to proceed until you are able to speak to me in a respectful tone". And then follow up and don't continue the conversation until she does that.
Of course - I am in the camp that you need to put some distance between you and her - she brings you so far down every time she's around. But I understand that isn't possible for the next month or so, until your son is recovered. So, I offer the above suggestion as a way to empower yourself :-).
Good for you with the Ceroc weekend OD!
There's no point arguing with WAW. Put your energy elsewhere.
Duh! Oh yeah.
I sent this email to WAW as she timed her return back home until after I had left to get the last bus. I got S15 to text me when she got back - half an hour later. I also said to him don't tell her as she'll think I'm checking up on her.
I would appreciate it if you are not going to get home until after I have left, that you let me know you are on track or have arrived so I know I don’t have to turn around and come back because something has happened.
And got a "yes, OK".
I took my ring off in the middle of the night. I even thought about selling it. I never wanted to wear it in the first place as I don't like wearing jewelry. WAW insisted that I did when we got married.
And then, lying awake, I thought how much I hate her. I never really understood the two sies of that coin before. And then I cried ... again. And now I do.
Step change. C'mon dammit.
I sent this email to WAW as she timed her return back home until after I had left to get the last bus. I got S15 to text me when she got back - half an hour later. I also said to him don't tell her as she'll think I'm checking up on her.
I would appreciate it if you are not going to get home until after I have left, that you let me know you are on track or have arrived so I know I don't have to turn around and come back because something has happened.
And got a "yes, OK".
She rang last night. I'm glad I didn't answer. So she sent me another lecture by email.
Sunday:
Yes, I ought to have let you know on Sunday what time I'd be back. In my mind it was enough that I'd said that I would be back in the afternoon. But, yes agreed, I did need to let you know I hadn't ended up in a ditch. So it won't happen in future.
Meantime, what is most troubling is the way you chose to address it. Once again you involved the children, in spite of me pointing out that to do so will breed insecurity in them. Rather than just text me yourself, S15 had to be involved in your dissatisfaction. Not content with passive-aggressive swiping at me via BFF (1), now you are involving your children as well (2).
The children:
It is S15 & S12 who are of particular concern to me here. The other people you carp about it to heard it all the first time around over (previous girlfriend), and can draw their own conclusions. S15 and S12 are our children. It will affect them and upset them. In spite of your personal dissatisfaction at what I am doing here, I have always taken the utmost care to look out for their feelings along the way. I have made sure to relay to them that they have nothing to fear, that their lives won't change radically, that they won't lose either of us, that we are managing it as grown ups. And I have never denigrated you to them, nor would I.
No second chance:
Yes, you are angry, we've all got that. You are angry that you haven't been given a second chance. I need to remind you that you were given a 20-year long chance when you were with me. It was a good relationship, but like all relationships it will have lacked on both sides. What was lacking for me I repeatedly pointed out to you. Not only were you incapable of addressing that with me, you steadfastly refused to do so. And just by way of a single isolated example here - for 20 years I assumed the reason I was never told I was beautiful was because I wasn't. (3)
But you've changed:
You claim I need to realise you've changed. If you've learnt about yourself lately, I'm pleased, but unfortunately for you in this case it's too little too late. In spite of this change, you seem to be behaving in the exact same way you did over (previous girlfriend) - your main aim being to ensure everybody around you realises how terrible it is for you.
So rather than point the finger at me continually, maybe take a look at yourself and what you are doing. And remember that in the end your passive aggression will hurt only you.
S15's operation:
S15 is having major surgery two weeks today. At this time more than any he needs to feel emotionally secure. As does S12. S15 is being expected to face his setback bravely and with dignity. You are one of his role models.
WAW1. I did a small website job for her BFF and then vented a bit which I shouldn't have especially as she's now reported back. I did apologise for doing it.
2. I asked S15 to text me when she got back, but not to tell her as she would think I'm checking up on her.
3. Argh! I may not have been crap at conveying my appreciation but this is selective thinking. Something which I have mentioned to her before.
I would appreciate some help in my reply please. As yes, true to form my initial reaction is a passive aggressive one ... and quite unprintable.
Tough stuff, Old Dog. She's a WAW alright, but one who doesn't actually speak of leaving. That's what I am so puzzled about with your sitch.
What's this about previous girlfriend then? Did I miss something?
I'm not too sure how to respond (validate no doubt) but I guess there is a few things in there for you to take note of:
(1) Your anger is showing to her
(2) It seems you have verbally told her that you have changed (without showing this though your actions) - she's not buying it in other words
(3) Passive aggressiveness - is that something you need to work on?
There seems to be so much anger in you that I really think you need to take your time with this one. Regardless of whether you send a response or not (and I'm not sure that one is warranted), how about writing a reply here and we can help you with reframing?
I know I'm not Wonka or Starsky but you linked here so hope you don't mind me throwing my 2c in here.
I'm not a vet and I don't have kids but it really rubbed me the wrong way that you got your son involved and asked him not to tell your W. It was only a small thing but it seems wrong to me to ask him to keep a secret from her.
That's putting him in the middle, and I'd leave him out of the situation completely. This is between you and W.
Thanks for replying ganb8te. I really need someone to talk to at the moment. I'm at work and had to go and have a 'moment' in the shower room.
She isn't leaving because she wants to give the boys a steady home and also she's nowhere to go. I'd love to throw her out though but I can't because I'm not there.
The previous girlfriend was before I met her. She dumped me and I didn't take it at all well. Followed her to Barcelona where she'd gone to live, cried, begged, pleaded you know the drill. When I came home I was so wrapped up in my own misery and sought comfort from flatmates. I was so self pitying it was emabarrassing (and still is) but I couldn't stop. I learnt later during counselling that it was typical passive aggressive behaviour. I even knew that she wasn't 'the one' but I needed her as a crutch. I was unhappy with the rest of my life then as well.
I told WAW about this on bomb day and said this time it is different. I do not want to act this way and I won't and that she, WAW, is 'the one'.
1. Evidently
2. I haven't said that I have changed but that people do change. She has commented before that she has noticed that was really trying but it was no good she's not changing hr mind.
3. Oh yes.
I've been writing a response. Not one to send but one where express what I'd like to say. I'll post that in a while. Still working on it. Then I'll try a validation draft. I've got IC tonight so I'll be able to address it there too.
Hi susana4. You're most welcome to chip in. Yes, you're right. And it didn't work anyway as he told her anyway. Got to stop that it was stupid on my part.
Glad to hear about the IC meeting tonight. I was going to ask.
We all have moments. Mine was during shavasana a few night ago - tears streaming down my face.
"She isn't leaving because she wants to give the boys a steady home and also she's nowhere to go. I'd love to throw her out though but I can't because I'm not there." Ok, but the current set up is clearly not sustainable. Somethings gotta give. and at this stage I am worried that something is your sanity. Somewhere in that quoted sentence is an opportunity to get unstuck....
I assume you are at the apartment this week? Are your roommates around for a chat?
Hang in there, Old Dog. This is so tough but we will make it through.
Yes I am at my flat. Unfortunately one of them is really quite ill at the moment. I can chat with the other one though.
I seem to bouncing around that Kubler Ross grief curve quite a bit. I have been feeling very angry recently as it has become apparent that WAW is bent on having this affair and expects me to be OK with it.
I thought I'd reached a point at the weekend where I'd accepted that there's nothing I can do but ignore it and work on myself but after a few bad mistakes on my part and another lecture I'm shaking with anger and fear. Oh and don't forget self pity.
Yes, I remember that feeling well. Sickening. Never want to experience it again.
Now's the time to put your mindfulness training to work. There's a lot of emotions floating around but you can still chose how to respond to them. Focus on your breath and try to soothe yourself. You know all this stuff, comrade.
Sorry Old Dog but I gotta get to bed. Hopefully some northern hemisphere people will chime in soon.
((Not so))
Hi od,
I dont drop by your thread too much hope you dont mine me popping in here. I'm having a t shirt made up that says "my sitch is different to yours but...." Possibly with "I'm going to turn up anyway" on the back
Sorry its tough right now. I dont know nor does anyone know how their sitch will develop twist and turn as it progresses let alone someone else's but take anything I say as warm support and if a vet pops by take their advice over mine.
I can say in the first month of my sitch I was an utter basket case, no arguments from me, pre dB I cried, begged, pleaded for a week then tried the brave gesture and nearly cracked under the strain
Friends became worried and talked to me and then I got councilling I've not fully back read yet so forgive me if I've missed it but do you have a (non involved / close to w) friend you can talk to who won't judge or can you get a councillor?
You note I haven't mentioned your w yet thats because you need to worry about you first. I've said in other threads any kind of sharing / in house sep situation has got to be hard as b@lls to deal with, it and no op are the only blessings I've had in my sitch (obviously the latter as far as w has told me /I know).
One of my w's big huge major with asterist reasons for going was my r or lack of it with s so I won't judge you or criticise you but I urge you to look at and examine your r with s. Sorry to sound negative Nelly (I've done that a lot lately in my thread but I'm coming out the other end I hope) but if, just *If* this doesn't work out your kids will be the r you get to maintain make sure you are comfortable with where you go with that, again I'm not saying your not but its a focus point I missed for 5 years so this is one who's been there and nearly messed up my r with s for good.
With that said I see a lot of the behaviour I'm prone to in what you mention, not to the same degree but certainly I identify as a pursuer and not knowing when to let go nearly - literally - cost me everything. I can't really comment or advise on the op as I only know what's in Dr/dB there same as you but hopefully a vet can answer and offer some advice.
As gan said the long term stability of the housing is a cause for concern though, is w just planning in staying indefinitely in an open marriage, seems odd that om would be happy with that long term but again no experience here.
The two things I can say are though you need to talk it out, vent it and ideally get to the bottom of any issues your w has raised that you feel are fair, some was comments will be spew doubtless but the core ones if they are fair you need to resolve for you and the kids regardless of w. This has taken me 7 months so far and 3 of those I had counselling that got me at least partially balanced.
I hear you on the ring. Although I love mine, I'd worn it until December last year (since june 2001 yes, constantly) so it was a lurch to take it off. But it was a cathartic moment for me as it wrapped up my needyness for w and it was then I really felt the first detatchment and some progress. It will come od it will regardless of what happens in the sitch.
I would echo that any 180s or changes need to be for you and need to be integrated into you. As an example I did 55 trunk/sit-ups before a shower this morning and have now dropped 3 trouser sizes yes initially all this was to look better for w and lack of concern for my appearance was one of w's lesser issues with me but now its just what I do.
Anger and internalising until I blew my stack another that counselling got to the bottom of.
W hasn't really commented on any of my 180s directly but she has to notice them simply as its impossible not to and they make me feel better as me. Aim for that in whatever you choose to work on.
I'm sorry its so hard for you right now my friend. I know I've been in that pit before and since bd day for me, it truly is the worse time. It will pass there will be good and great days there will still be low ones but things will change hold onto that.
Cheers
Edz
Thanks again ganb8te and thanks edz for coming by.
I've shut down now as I feel so depressed. Maybe later. Just go to get through the day without curling up under the desk at work (passive aggressive).
Hi OD, I'm so sorry you're having a rough time my friend.
One thing I would say is that I would take the feedback about involving S on the chin. I think it's best not to involve him in anything like that. But you know that already. As for the rest....believe nothing they say...
The other thing I would say is this is an important time for your family, with S's op just around the corner. I think this is a time to try and be a united front for him as much as possible to give some stability before and after the op. Because of his op, it doesn't sound like a time to be making huge decisions or engaging in a big way with your W on what she's said.
It's good that you're seeing your IC and can talk this through with an 'expert.' It may be an idea to come up with a 'one month plan' - to get you through the next period of time, which hopefully includes S's op.
I think your W's email has some classic WAW elements:
Blaming you for recent events (she does acknowledge some responsibility granted)
Hoping life can go on just the same (and you'll keep funding it)
No acknowledgement of the damage being done to the R/family by having an A
Essentially, your W seems to be saying you should carry on as you all are, as she is taking care not to 'impact' the family with what she's doing. And actually, her actions are justified because you've been so awful and she's been trying to tell you for 20 years.
What I would say OD is she's swirling in fog right now, and you may not want to engage with the mess that's going on inside her head. It's probably not going to do you or your sitch any good. It may be an idea to not even reply to her email.
Without checking back, are you and W still sharing the marital bed? Is that something you are willing/able to tolerate going forwards? IMHO, in-house S's are the worst scenario of all, especially if there's an ongoing A. That's incredibly difficult and you may need to re-think your plans if this is taking it's toll. To me, whilst W doesn't want to change anything (for the boys - or for her?) you may want to insist on plans that allow you to S and for you to still be in the area at weekends, because the current set up may not be manageable in the longer term.
Take care OD - and don't do any huge stuff whilst you're feeling so upset - if in doubt, withdraw until you feel calmer. We are all here for you my friend, and this too shall pass.
(((OD)))
Hi Toots. Yes we are still sharing a bed. I am able to tolerate it for now as she goes to bed and gets up earlier than I do (another example of our incompatibility - jaw drop emoticon) so we don't even talk in the bedroom.
Feeling totally withdrawn right now so that's easy.
Hey Old Dog-
Just wanted to say hang in there. I don't think I'm a good person to be giving advice, because right now I'm in the mood to poke my own WAS with a very sharp stick.
I will say that stepping out with another guy might "breed insecurity" in the kids as well.
Hi Old Dog,
Try and keep your chin up. Sorry you feel so down. Do you have any plans for tonight? Maybe try and plan something nice so you have something to look forward to to get you through the work day.
Apologies, I'm still catching up your sitch so I may not understand completely, but you live in a flat away from W during the week and then you're back in the house with your W and sons at the weekend right? What about if you didn't go back to the house for next weekend? Just to give yourself a bit of breathing room. Could your sons come visit you at your flat?
raliced - I will say that stepping out with another guy might "breed insecurity" in the kids as well.
As Hong Kong Phooey used to say "could be" :-)
susana4 - I really appreciate you stopping by again. I've got a counselling session tonight. That'll help.
Yes, I live with a couple of wonderfully helpful and supportive flatmates during the week. They both alcoholics and drug users (if you have been one, you're never an ex) who have done the 12 steps and help others now ... and me although I'm neither. I couldn't have ended up in a better place to be honest.
The last weekend was the first time I went back in three weeks actually. The weekend coming is a birthday celebration for my mum so WAW said she'll take herself off on Saturday. And the weekend after that I'm not gong back as I've arranged to go to a ceroc (dancing) weekender.
I know I'll get through this, not just today but in a week / month / year but man alive it's hard. I'm trying not to dwell. I recognise the signals and try to route around them e.g. I went out to the pub for lunch with colleagues even though I didn't feel like it and wasn't exactly the life and soul.
OD, let me ask: how much of her email lecture is true? Any of it? All of it? Just wondering your viewpoint.
OD,
Posting your W's email here:
Yes, I ought to have let you know on Sunday what time I'd be back. In my mind it was enough that I'd said that I would be back in the afternoon. But, yes agreed, I did need to let you know I hadn't ended up in a ditch. So it won't happen in future.
Meantime, what is most troubling is the way you chose to address it. Once again you involved the children, in spite of me pointing out that to do so will breed insecurity in them. Rather than just text me yourself, S15 had to be involved in your dissatisfaction. Not content with passive-aggressive swiping at me via BFF (1), now you are involving your children as well (2).
The children:
It is S15 & S12 who are of particular concern to me here. The other people you carp about it to heard it all the first time around over (previous girlfriend), and can draw their own conclusions. S15 and S12 are our children. It will affect them and upset them. In spite of your personal dissatisfaction at what I am doing here, I have always taken the utmost care to look out for their feelings along the way. I have made sure to relay to them that they have nothing to fear, that their lives won't change radically, that they won't lose either of us, that we are managing it as grown ups. And I have never denigrated you to them, nor would I.
No second chance:
Yes, you are angry, we've all got that. You are angry that you haven't been given a second chance. I need to remind you that you were given a 20-year long chance when you were with me. It was a good relationship, but like all relationships it will have lacked on both sides. What was lacking for me I repeatedly pointed out to you. Not only were you incapable of addressing that with me, you steadfastly refused to do so. And just by way of a single isolated example here - for 20 years I assumed the reason I was never told I was beautiful was because I wasn't. (3)
But you've changed:
You claim I need to realise you've changed. If you've learnt about yourself lately, I'm pleased, but unfortunately for you in this case it's too little too late. In spite of this change, you seem to be behaving in the exact same way you did over (previous girlfriend) - your main aim being to ensure everybody around you realises how terrible it is for you.
So rather than point the finger at me continually, maybe take a look at yourself and what you are doing. And remember that in the end your passive aggression will hurt only you.
S15's operation:
S15 is having major surgery two weeks today. At this time more than any he needs to feel emotionally secure. As does S12. S15 is being expected to face his setback bravely and with dignity. You are one of his role models.
WAW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I tell many newbies and newcomers to respond in 1-3 short paragraphs. You need to filter out white noise and respond using validation techniques. You would want to use KISS and STFU principles in your draft response. I'd suggest that you post the draft here for feedback.
What was the "issue" that W is referring to here as in 'this has been happening for 20 years'? Do you know what it is?
Hi Wonka, thank you so much for stopping by. I will post a draft here a bit later.
The issue is not being loving enough, not telling her I love her, not being passionate enough, not telling her she is beautiful. LL number one 'affirmations' I believe.
She summed it up nicely after bomb day by showing me motivational speaker Gerald Roger's viral web post - marriage advice I wish I would have had. She said I never did any of these.
Uh, thanks for telling me now it's too late W.
She says she told you. What say you to that?
She did not tell me in so many words. I only found out by reading books such as 5LL and His Needs, Her Needs ..and of course Gerald Roger's page.
She would say she wanted wooing but I don't come from a 'wooing/romantic' family (how weird is this?) and so when I asked what she actually wanted, she either expected me to know or didn't have the answer herself.
Interesting - I'm re-reading DR at the moment, and have just read chapter 4 - Ask for what you want. Your comments made me think of that.
If your W was a DBing pro, she would have said - I'd like us to dress up and go out for dinner once every couple of weeks. And I would like you to buy me flowers on occasions like birthdays. Plus, I would like you to tell me you love me...not every day, or even every week, but often enough to keep romance alive and so that I don't feel taken for granted.
"She would say she wanted wooing but I don't come from a 'wooing/romantic' family"
So, knowing that she did want this, what efforts did you make? It sounds a bit like an excuse to say you didn't come from that kind of family....
OD,
I've read through this thread and see that W is still involved with OM.
Here is what you need to do going forward:
-Stop talking about your sitch to other people. Full stop.
-If you need to talk about your sitch, come here or talk it over with your own IC
-Stop asking about W to children...this puts them in the middle (and it makes you look like a stalker!)
-Get your mojo back...confidence, strength, dignity
-Engage in your GAL with healthy people (not sure about being around alcoholics or drug addicts)
-Put on something new each time you see W...one new shirt, pair of shoes, belt (you get the idea)
-Look like a million dollars (clean shaved, or trimmed beard)
Once every 3 weeks or so, give your W a genuine and sincere compliment. It can be her new hairdo, clothes, or how she handled a problem--especially as a mother. It seems to me that your W's LL is WOA.
What is her second LL? Most of us have two primary LLs. Keep in mind LL is what makes her giddy...not how you give it. But it is how she receives it.
Mine are PT/QT closely followed by WOA. When I receive them in heaping doses, I feel good and loved.
Funny...when I show love to others, it is through AOS and PT.
Toots - "She would say she wanted wooing but I don't come from a 'wooing/romantic' family"
So, knowing that she did want this, what efforts did you make? It sounds a bit like an excuse to say you didn't come from that kind of family....
I didn't really have much of a clue I'm afraid and didn't know where or how to find one. I thought you either had it or you didn't, and I didn't. MrBond called me out on this early on in my story and said I was lazy and selfish. Maybe I was but genuinly there are some of us who are hopeless at this.
OD,
You can learn new behaviors. We can always learn new patterns and behaviors. One needs to put some work into it. You can Google on how to properly romance your spouse (not now!).
As you know by now, marriage takes work. Takes nurturing and attention for it to thrive. Likewise with a flower...more soil, more fertilizer, more sun, etc. so it can bloom in all of its glory.
OD,
I've read through this thread and see that W is still involved with OM.
Here is what you need to do going forward:
-Stop talking about your sitch to other people. Full stop.
Understood, although this was the first and last time with a joint friend.
-If you need to talk about your sitch, come here or talk it over with your own IC
OK
-Stop asking about W to children...this puts them in the middle (and it makes you look like a stalker!)
OK. I only did it twice and it backfired twice, so no more.
-Get your mojo back...confidence, strength, dignity
er ... OK. When I read No More Mr Nice Guy, it more than struck a chord. The whole damn piano collapsed.
-Engage in your GAL with healthy people (not sure about being around alcoholics or drug addicts)
Don't worry about my flatmates, they haven't used for years. They've done the 12 steps and help others in the same position now. They are really supportive. I trust them.
-Put on something new each time you see W...one new shirt, pair of shoes, belt (you get the idea)
-Look like a million dollars (clean shaved, or trimmed beard)
Yes, I've tried to be presentable ever since bomb day. I always shave, I started splashing on some aftershave which I've never done before and bought some new clothes.
Once every 3 weeks or so, give your W a genuine and sincere compliment. It can be her new hairdo, clothes, or how she handled a problem--especially as a mother. It seems to me that your W's LL is WOA.
I'll have to set my alarm for that. It's just something that never occured to me. Not laziness or selfishness so this would be a 180 as I was lacking in this.
What is her second LL? Most of us have two primary LLs. Keep in mind LL is what makes her giddy...not how you give it. But it is how she receives it.
Her second LL would be quality time with a hint of gifts.
Mine are PT/QT closely followed by WOA. When I receive them in heaping doses, I feel good and loved.
Mine are also PT/QT
Funny...when I show love to others, it is through AOS and PT.
And I naturally dole out AOS and find it awkward to do WOA. Got to learn that. I have made some improvement though, and not just with WAW.
Thank you so much for this Wonka. I think I got lost somewhere along the way.
OD,
You can learn new behaviors. We can always learn new patterns and behaviors. One needs to put some work into it. You can Google on how to properly romance your spouse (not now!).
As you know by now, marriage takes work. Takes nurturing and attention for it to thrive. Likewise with a flower...more soil, more fertilizer, more sun, etc. so it can bloom in all of its glory.
This was always something I was confused about. I understand I cannot do the romance thing now, but how do you show the WAS that you can now do it if they are not receptive?
OD
Something shifted for you recently and things are moving emotionally for you. It is uncomfortable but by moving towards the pain and facing what was then in the 12 steps you can change.
I would like to remind you of some words Sandi put on my thread early on: nothing, but nothing you have done is any excuse for wayward behaviour in your W. Problems in your M can be addressed in a completely different way than waywardness. Nothing excuses the pain, hurt and damage of this type of behaviour. It will never address the underlying causes of poor communication between H and W.
OD, that was then and today you can never go back and redo the past, all you have is today and the changes that you can make today. I think you may find the 12 steps very helpful, those who have completed 12 steps and reach step 10 have a peaceful glow about them, whether they are the addict or the spouse/loved one of an addict. OD your W A is an addiction so that makes OD the spouse of a behavioural addict. The program for co dependence is a 12 step program OD. But if you want to 12 step then I am comfortable in being a channel for your higher power. If you like we can have a thread for that or one of your flat mates may be comfortable guiding you through the steps. To me it seems that Steps 1 to 3 could be covered by you in a single session. There is much guidance around the analysis needed in step 4, which is the most troublesome to navigate. That of identify your own behavioural issues and a sponsor can guide you and you seem to be lucky to have a choice.
OD, this is the time to concentrate on OD. Take what is valuable from W email and leave the rest behind. You can always delay your response and post here, Wonka, Starsky and Sandi are all great at these types of responses. HP always tested his responses and V uses the advice given as her guide.
It seems very bleak to you at present and I understand this.Shift often does this and I am glad for you OD that this shift has happened. There is much spew and justification in W email and the nuggets of truth which are a gift to you.
OD, you are in a unique position of being able to work on OD in the away space. Including going GAL. I am pleased you will also be at the Ceroc event, it will be enjoyable, distracting and a new skill set. Do go and enjoy yourself. There is a world outside of your sitch which will slowly assist with your PMA.
Very early on in my own sitch, I was presented with a reaction from H when I presented BD1. A similar email full of vitriol, justification for bad behaviour but also with a great deal of truth about the appearance of the screaming banshee and other awful reactions. Including that I was unsupportive, unromantic and not a 'we' person. Over the period then I have addressed those obvious weakness and am now tackling others, my health, fitness, drabness and financial failures.
Also realise that you will have to tango (Ceroc) alone for a while. You may faulter, stumble, and make most mistakes. Do so with the right intentions for OD and his sons and that is very positive. This sitch has been created by both W and H, so in time you will see each has their role to play. DB and 12 steps are compatible OD.
Keep posting and be ready to receive the love, support and generous advice of us mortals and the vets. oh and the 2x4.
I am projecting all the love and support I can to you tonight so that you can sleep in peace.
V
Thank you for your encouragement V. Today started off very bleakly, but with some skills I have learned and friends all over the world I have made it through to the end of the day ... as I knew I would.
Tomorrow, I will be drafting a response to WAW's email and looking for a martial arts class in the area.
Good night all.
This might not seem like much but how I started out was talking to people strangers, helped I worked in retail.
I talk to anyone like I did in the old days. I say at the very least hello. I have dozens of casual friends at work who come in to tell me things to connect with me. All because I treat them as people.
I might share one of today's stories in my thread to see how thing happen in my day.
Theses sort of exchanges give me, so much confidence.
Happy to see a few friends stop by while I was sleeping, Old Dog.
GG, you started talking to strangers eh? That explains a lot :-)
GB, yes the people on here are wonderful. I trust you had a decent sleep. Despite my dreadful day yesterday, I actually didn't sleep too badly.
OD,
Posting your W's email here:
Yes, I ought to have let you know on Sunday what time I'd be back. In my mind it was enough that I'd said that I would be back in the afternoon. But, yes agreed, I did need to let you know I hadn't ended up in a ditch. So it won't happen in future.
Meantime, what is most troubling is the way you chose to address it. Once again you involved the children, in spite of me pointing out that to do so will breed insecurity in them. Rather than just text me yourself, S15 had to be involved in your dissatisfaction. Not content with passive-aggressive swiping at me via BFF (1), now you are involving your children as well (2).
The children:
It is S15 & S12 who are of particular concern to me here. The other people you carp about it to heard it all the first time around over (previous girlfriend), and can draw their own conclusions. S15 and S12 are our children. It will affect them and upset them. In spite of your personal dissatisfaction at what I am doing here, I have always taken the utmost care to look out for their feelings along the way. I have made sure to relay to them that they have nothing to fear, that their lives won't change radically, that they won't lose either of us, that we are managing it as grown ups. And I have never denigrated you to them, nor would I.
No second chance:
Yes, you are angry, we've all got that. You are angry that you haven't been given a second chance. I need to remind you that you were given a 20-year long chance when you were with me. It was a good relationship, but like all relationships it will have lacked on both sides. What was lacking for me I repeatedly pointed out to you. Not only were you incapable of addressing that with me, you steadfastly refused to do so. And just by way of a single isolated example here - for 20 years I assumed the reason I was never told I was beautiful was because I wasn't. (3)
But you've changed:
You claim I need to realise you've changed. If you've learnt about yourself lately, I'm pleased, but unfortunately for you in this case it's too little too late. In spite of this change, you seem to be behaving in the exact same way you did over (previous girlfriend) - your main aim being to ensure everybody around you realises how terrible it is for you.
So rather than point the finger at me continually, maybe take a look at yourself and what you are doing. And remember that in the end your passive aggression will hurt only you.
S15's operation:
S15 is having major surgery two weeks today. At this time more than any he needs to feel emotionally secure. As does S12. S15 is being expected to face his setback bravely and with dignity. You are one of his role models.
WAW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I tell many newbies and newcomers to respond in 1-3 short paragraphs. You need to filter out white noise and respond using validation techniques. You would want to use KISS and STFU principles in your draft response. I'd suggest that you post the draft here for feedback.
What was the "issue" that W is referring to here as in 'this has been happening for 20 years'? Do you know what it is?
Right here's first draft. It probably isn't short enough or contain enough validation. What do you think?
Dear WAW
I just asked S15 to text me as I was leaving that minute and he was there. I was not trying to involve him in anything underhand, but point taken I should have texted you instead and will do in future.
The children are also my only concern as well. I am not trying to manipulate them, or anyone else for that matter. I am doing my best to handle this situation but very occassionally it gets to much to bear and I forget or am unable to. One of those times when I fell below my own standards was with BFF and I am sorry and ashamed to have involved her in this way: it was wrong and I apologised to her immediately. This was a solitary incident in a moment of weakness and I will not let it happen again.
Yes I do feel angry at times but I am acting very differently than before. I am doing my best to control any passive aggressive tendencies, I know more than anyone how damaging they can be. I have sought support from some friends but it has not included carping at you.
You do need to remind me of S15’s operation, and I am well aware of my responsibilities to my children. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but I am always cheerful and upbeat with them and I never put you down in front of them. The fact that they still seem blissfully unaware of how serious the situation is, I think is proof of that.
Old Dog
OD,
Okay...this is a start. I'll work with you, but I will NOT deny you the dignity of doing the heavy lifting.
You do need to work on this some more...maybe 2, 3, 4, or 6 more drafts before you get the "green light" to send it.
Put on your Wonka hat and borrow my glittery pink Sharpie pen here. Which sections would you change and improve? Which sections would you jettison altogether?
Hints:
-Less of "I"
-Watch out for judgmental tone
-Do not draw W's attention on the negatives
-Whittle it down to 2 paragraphs
-STFU and KISS
Fire away....
OK draft 2
Re texting ETAs: good, I'm glad. As you know I already try to do that. In this case I just asked S15 to text me as he was there when I had to leave, but point taken I will text you instead in future.
Of course the children are also my main focus as well. I understand your concern and I am doing my best to handle this situation. I am always cheerful and upbeat with them and I never put you down in front of them. You don't need to remind me of S15’s operation and my responsibilities.
At times I do struggle and I fell below my own standards when I chatted to BFF. I am truly sorry and ashamed to have involved her in this way: it was wrong and I apologised to her immediately. This was a solitary incident in a moment of weakness and I will not let it happen again.
Hmmm, still too many 'I's.
OD, I'll chip in here if this helps...
On texting times of arrival - I'm glad, and it's best if we can both do that. And point taken about involving S - I'll text you instead in future.
I do regret chatting to BFF and I'm sorry to have involved her in this way. It wasn't the right thing to do and I have apologised to her.
Of course the children need to be our main focus. I understand your concern and we should do our best to handle things well. I appreciate this isn't the easiest time for any of us - particularly with S15’s operation coming up.
I've tried to include some us, our, we - so it reads less like I and you and more you both as a team - emphasising what you have in common.
I'm no expert as scripting, but others may well have useful feedback OD :-)
OD,
Let's dissect your second draft.
Re texting ETAs: good, I'm glad. As you know I already try to do that. In this case I just asked S15 to text me as he was there when I had to leave, but point taken I will text you instead in future. this sounds like you're protesting a bit here
Of course the children are also my main focus as well. I understand your concern and I am doing my best to handle this situation. I am always cheerful and upbeat with them and I never put you down in front of them. You're making pronouncements about your own actions. Not necessary.You don't need to remind me of S15’s operation and my responsibilities. Whoa...sounds like a petulant response to W's dig...
At times I do struggle and I fell below my own standards when I chatted to BFF. I am truly sorry and ashamed to have involved her in this way: it was wrong and I apologised to her immediately. This was a solitary incident in a moment of weakness and I will not let it happen again. I wouldn't even bother with BFF situation....ignore this part completely. She really cannot dictate who you can or cannot talk with. Yet this proofs the importance of NOT talking about your sitch to other people.
I am going to show you how to draft a response using STFU and KISS principles mirroring back to W in the next post.
Here is the email from W:
Yes, I ought to have let you know on Sunday what time I'd be back. In my mind it was enough that I'd said that I would be back in the afternoon. But, yes agreed, I did need to let you know I hadn't ended up in a ditch. So it won't happen in future.
Meantime, what is most troubling is the way you chose to address it. Once again you involved the children, in spite of me pointing out that to do so will breed insecurity in them. Rather than just text me yourself, S15 had to be involved in your dissatisfaction. Not content with passive-aggressive swiping at me via BFF (1), now you are involving your children as well (2).
The children:
It is S15 & S12 who are of particular concern to me here. The other people you carp about it to heard it all the first time around over (previous girlfriend), and can draw their own conclusions. S15 and S12 are our children. It will affect them and upset them. In spite of your personal dissatisfaction at what I am doing here, I have always taken the utmost care to look out for their feelings along the way. I have made sure to relay to them that they have nothing to fear, that their lives won't change radically, that they won't lose either of us, that we are managing it as grown ups. And I have never denigrated you to them, nor would I.
No second chance:
Yes, you are angry, we've all got that. You are angry that you haven't been given a second chance. I need to remind you that you were given a 20-year long chance when you were with me. It was a good relationship, but like all relationships it will have lacked on both sides. What was lacking for me I repeatedly pointed out to you. Not only were you incapable of addressing that with me, you steadfastly refused to do so. And just by way of a single isolated example here - for 20 years I assumed the reason I was never told I was beautiful was because I wasn't. (3)
But you've changed:
You claim I need to realise you've changed. If you've learnt about yourself lately, I'm pleased, but unfortunately for you in this case it's too little too late. In spite of this change, you seem to be behaving in the exact same way you did over (previous girlfriend) - your main aim being to ensure everybody around you realises how terrible it is for you.
So rather than point the finger at me continually, maybe take a look at yourself and what you are doing. And remember that in the end your passive aggression will hurt only you.
S15's operation:
S15 is having major surgery two weeks today. At this time more than any he needs to feel emotionally secure. As does S12. S15 is being expected to face his setback bravely and with dignity. You are one of his role models.
WAW
Suggested Response (you can change to fit your own style)
W,
Thank you for your email. I wanted to take some time to read it and process what you said.
I appreciate you raising some concerns regarding our children. I do hear what you are saying here. Thank you for bringing them my attention and I will be more mindful of those issues. As you would agree, we both dearly love our children and want the best for them. We may fall short at times but we keep on trying our best.
You need to know that I found it quite painful to hear that you felt not beautiful at all. I cannot imagine how you must have felt and it must be awful feeling for you. You are a very beautiful woman and a wonderful mother. I admire your mothering skills and how you strive to be the best for our children.
I agree that it is important that we all come together to support our son through his surgery and his recovery. Let's discuss the logistics and see if we can come up with a workable plan schedule-wise. How would you like to handle this? I am sure you have some ideas and I am interested in hearing them.
Thank you,
OD
Wow! I have a lot to learn. Thank you Wonka, and you Toots.
You need to know that I found it quite painful to hear that you felt not beautiful at all. I cannot imagine how you must have felt and it must be awful feeling for you. You are a very beautiful woman and a wonderful mother. I admire your mothering skills and how you strive to be the best for our children.
This^^^^^!!!!! OD do you realize how important this is? That's why I asked if you thought there was any validity to her concerns. And you never mentioned this. I was worried you weren't going to, but Wonka to the rescue.
I do realise how important it is ... now RP. To my shame and regret, I didn't during our relationship. My only excuse is during my upbringing, I was never taught any kind of romance.
3rd draft
Thank you for your email WAW. I wanted to take some time to read what you said and collect my thoughts before I replied.
I hear what you say regarding the children, that their well being is paramount. I understand your concerns and I will be more attentive to those issues. I know you always think of our children first and I appreciate that. We may fall short at times but we both love them dearly and always do our best for them.
I was upset to hear that you never felt beautiful. I cannot imagine how you you must have felt, but it must have been hard to bear. I would like to say you are a very beautiful woman and a fantastic mother. I greatly admire the way you have looked after the boys, especially in the past few years whilst I was away.
We have already discussed the logistics of S15’s operation and recovery to some extent but we need to decide who is doing what, when and how best to support him. I am so proud of him, the way he is handling this, he is such a star.
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I realise much of this is playing around with what you've already written. I have tried to make it sound more like me without losing any of the intent or adding superflous stuff.
^^^ od, better! But watch the "we need to"..., I think.
Sounds much better OD - like the first two paragraphs - but agree about the 'we need to' - maybe have another look at that last section?
T :-)
OD. Nothing to offer but moral support. Your getting there. Take care. Rd
Re: 'we need ...'
I thought it would provide a sense of togetherness in our outlook towards caring for S15. Am I wrong?
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I probably need to get this off today as I'll be going back this evening, although she'll be out at a work drinking session.
My H uses the phrase "I need you to ". I'm sure that works beautifully for his employees but sometimes rubs me the wrong way. If I were reading your letter, I'd rather hear "let's do x" than "we need to do x". Thats a very subtle difference but less pressuring imo.
How about 'a good choice for us' or simply 'I would want us to'
V
I think 'we need to' is OK here as we do actually need to but I take your point and 'let's do x' does sound friendlier. Thanks RP.
And so v3.1
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Thank you for your email WAW. I wanted to take some time to read what you said and collect my thoughts before I replied.
I hear what you say regarding the children, that their well being is paramount. I understand your concerns and I will be more attentive to those issues. I know you always think of our children first and I appreciate that. We may fall short at times but we both love them dearly and always do our best for them.
I was upset to hear that you never felt beautiful. I cannot imagine how you you must have felt, but it must have been hard to bear. I would like to say you are a very beautiful woman and a fantastic mother. I greatly admire the way you have looked after the boys, especially in the past few years whilst I was away.
We have already discussed the logistics of S15’s operation and recovery to some extent but let's work out a few more details about who is doing what, when and how best to support him this weekend. I am so proud of him, the way he is handling this, he is such a star.
That reads A-OK to me OD. I like the 'lets' instead of 'we need' - lets sounds suggestive and we need sounds instructive....all good.
Hope it is received well OD. I often think - whatever would our S's make of it if they knew our simple email had been redrafted 5 times with input from friends all over the world!
My H are in touch at the moment - working on a plan to divide our assets. I'm waiting for him to suggest a way forward later today - eek...
Take care OD (())
I often think - whatever would our S's make of it if they knew our simple email had been redrafted 5 times with input from friends all over the world!
I'm sure they'd think we were manipulative and devious and they were right to leave.
I often think - whatever would our S's make of it if they knew our simple email had been redrafted 5 times with input from friends all over the world!
I'm sure they'd think we were manipulative and devious and they were right to leave.
Hey OD - I think of this too. I carefully guard this secret. It's really the only thing that I hide from W.
I've never put so much thought into every single word that I say (and I do worry that she'll find out that the words are not always my own -
but the intention is). The help and care here is invaluable.
Take Care OD!
fat finger syndrome again!
OD, I see this very differently
1. Shows we want clarity and care how we say what we say
2. Shows meaning before emotion
3. Removes negativity and bias on our part and creates trust
4. Communications move in a positive manner: win/win
5. We learn from this in all communications not just this one with W, practice
6. It is more loving and moves to the norm
Besides those friends have the best interests of Mr and Mrs OD at their core
V