I've been reading the boards for a little while now and thought it was time to start posting. This is probably going to be fairly long, so thanks for taking the time to read. Here is the background.
My H and I have been together for 4 years and married for just over 2 years. We met at a Christmas party in 2010. About a month after we met, he took a job in another state. At first we decided not to do long distance, but continued talking and eventually started visiting each other. Once a month turned into twice, then turned into three times and eventually he decided to move back to FL. We were long distance for 8 months. During that time we got to know each other very well as we really could only talk to each other. We spent hours on the phone every night, we did the a daily devotional, went thorugh the book of questions, really got to know each others values, goals, fears. We also talked about marriage and having kids. I had been married before and was not in a rush to do it again unless it was with the right person. He knew that my previous H had a long term PA and was an alcoholic (who eventually drank himself to death). I was also older than he was and made it clear that I wanted a family and didn't want to wait too long. I knew he was young and may not be ready for that, but he assured me that he wanted a family too and was ready. We seemed to be on the same page.
About a month before he moved back, we got engaged. We were engaged a little over a year before we were married. Soon after we married, we started trying to get pregnant. Every month when it didn't happen we were both frustrated.
About 6 months into the marriage, things started to change. I just felt like he stopped making me a priority. He and I are total opposite personalities. I am an introvert and he is an extrovert to the extreme. I like to go out and do things, but I also value my alone time, while he can’t sit at home for an hour before he wants to go out and do something. When I didn’t feel like going out, I always encouraged him to go anyway, hang out with his friends. Most of the time he chose not to because he didn’t want to go by himself, but I feel he started resenting me for that. I remember the first big fight we had. We were going to the beach with our bible study group after church and that morning while on a run, I had hurt my leg. I could barely walk. I made it through church and to the beach. I was in pain. It started raining so everyone decided to go bowling instead. At that point, all I wanted to do was go home and lay down, but I told him to go have fun. H took me home, said he would be home in a few hours and would bring home dinner. After a few hours I texted him to see when he was coming home and he said he was leaving. Another hour passed and he still wasn’t home. I texted again and he had not left and was now playing darts. When he got home, I lost it. These types of things had been going on for a little while and I just had enough. We got in a huge fight and I said I wasn’t sure if we had made the right decision getting married.
Things didn’t change. We talked about seeing a counselor, but neither of us did anything about it. A few weeks after our 1st anniversary, we were at a friend’s wedding where H was a groomsman. He had been acting distant and the day of the wedding was very rude to me when he was done with his groomsman duties. Wasn’t hanging out with me, was avoiding me and taking shots with his buddies. Before dinner was served, I was feeling emotional so I left and went to another room. He followed me and we got into an argument. No yelling, but I was crying and really felt hopeless at that point. I didn’t want to ruin our friend’s wedding, so I told him I couldn’t keep doing this and was going to leave. I told him to stay and have fun. The next morning when I talked to him something was off. We started talking about the night before and he admitted that he was very emotional after I left and drank too much and kissed another girl. He said that he realized immediately what he had done and stopped it and that was as far as it went. At that moment something in me changed. He knew about my past and had promised that he would never do anything like that to me. I was hurt and more so, angry.
We immediately went to see the pastor who married us and started seeing MC. Things were bad for a few months, we argued all the time, I screamed and yelled and mentioned the D word often. I felt like I turned into a different person. We considered getting a divorce, but ultimately decided to work on our marriage. We didn’t do it right though. We were good for about 6 months, but never really fixed our issues, just put a band-aid on them. As time went on, he began to get distant again. We would try to talk about it in counseling, but for the most part he would just sit there. I felt he got more and more selfish and I became further down on the priority list. I would hold my hurt feelings in for as long as I could and then he would do something selfish and I would explode.
Everything came to a head on 10/4/14. He had been out of town all week for work and we were having people over for a football game on Saturday. He got home that morning and we had a disagreement over money. We had people over and then after they left were just sitting on the couch watching football together. Some friends invited us over to their house, but I was tired and just wanted to spend some time with him. He said he was going anyway. I felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. I blew up, I screamed and yelled, I said I hated him, I said I couldn’t be married to him anymore….and a host of other things I’m sure. I reacted with emotion, and a lot of it. He left and went to the friend’s house anyway. In that moment, I was done. We barely spoke much after that. He told me that he wouldn’t stop me from getting a divorce if that was what I wanted and we made a counseling appt. for the next week. During counseling, we both said we were unsure that we wanted to work on things. A week or so later, I woke up and thought what am I doing? I made a commitment to him for better or for worse…and I wanted to save our marriage. He however, did not.
More later.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
So post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power
My story continued.
I immediately started doing all of the things that are totally opposite to DB. I started by writing a letter to him about wanting to save our marriage. I started doing the love dare (those of you who have done it know there are presents, saying I love you, pursuing). I begged, pleaded, cried, you know the drill. He eventually moved into the guest room. I felt like I was living in bizzaro world. We would talk, but not about anything important. We would eat dinner together or watch tv without saying anything. We were cautiously polite, but both avoiding each other when all possible. Sometimes he gave mixed signals, like trying to flirt with me. But then he would go back to being cold. Even before I got DR, I started GALing, just so I could get out of the house. He stopped going to our MC together (although we both went separately). Multiple times he told me he was 100% sure he wanted a divorce. Other times he said he didn’t know what he wanted. I tried my hardest to be nice, even though his attitude toward me was cold and hard. It was like a switch flipped in him. Although he had been selfish and not made me a priority for a while, he was never mean or cold. That was new.
We both are both Christians and during this time, he started getting righteous. Saying we were not spiritually matched, that our relationship had no spiritual foundation and it had been based on sex (which is pretty hard considering we were long distance for the first 8 months). Every so often I would try to talk about the R and of course it got us nowhere. If we were talking and he wanted to stop, I followed him and kept pushing. I sent him passages from the bible regarding marriage and parts of books I was reading. It was textbook. I eventually found these boards and started reading DR. I started trying to change my behavior. I went out more with friends, tried to stay away from R talk, not contact him first, stay friendly at home, make sure to thank him for things he did around the house. Everything I did was met with him saying that he thought it was all fake.
Months passed, we spent Thanksgiving apart. About a week before Christmas, he told me that he was thinking about moving out. I told him that I didn’t think it was a good idea, but that he should talk to MC about it. MC said she didn’t think it was a good idea either. We discussed it and agreed to give it some thought and discuss it again. That Sunday on the way home from Church, he told me that he was signing a lease that day. Talk about blindsided. He actually drove past the new apartment on our way home and the landlord just “happened” to be standing outside waiting for him to sign. So, he did it with me in the car…. We discussed the parameters of the move. He said it did not mean he wanted a divorce, that he only viewed it as temporary so he could have space to think and figure out what he wanted. He said he wanted to start going back to the MC together and have Sunday dinners. We agreed to split our finances while separated.
Read DB/DR and here are the 37 rules
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Thanks Cadet for the reply. I have read DR (and am in the process of re-reading it) and have read the 37 rules multiple times.
So, to bring it up to today, he has been out for a month and nothing has changed. He has texted me every day since the move (I never initiate any conversation) but that is about it. He is always very curious as to what my plans are, what I’m doing for the weekend, etc. I felt like I was doing well with DBing while he was still in the house, but since he moved out anyway, maybe I wasn’t. Since he’s been out of the house, I feel like I have been doing horrible. Not begging and pleading, but just being really angry and not being someone that only a fool would leave. I have not been very good at detaching. I unfollowed him on FB, but friends will mention something he posted or that he has been out partying all over FB and I am right back worrying and being mad.
We have been to the MC together once and it was not productive at all. He continued to blame everything on me and was not willing to take any of the responsibility. Our MC told us that it was not productive and unless we both were willing to work on the marriage she didn’t think we should come together anymore.
It seems to me (and MC) that he was not ready to get married and take on the responsibility of that and now just wants to be single and partying all the time. Which is what he has been doing since he moved out.
The last time we went to the MC together, she gave us an exercise to do where we both thought about what it would look like from our own perspective as to what we would do to work on the marriage. Then we were supposed to meet and talk face to face about it. I sat down and really put some thought into what things he said bothered him and made a fairly detailed list of what I would do. He opened with how everything is basically my fault. How he feels our marriage is unhealthy, I am controlling, too angry. I told him that that was not part of the exercise. He said he just needed to get it off his chest (which is what he did at the MC and has done constantly over the past 4 months). Then he said that he thought I would need him to put me more of a priority and spend more quality time with me. While those are things that are issues for me, that's all he came up with. Then he said that he thought about it and he was not ready to have kids, and it could be 4 years before he was ready. Sometimes I wonder who this person is and where is my real husband.
Well, I sorta dropped off the face of the earth here for a while. Work has been very hectic and have not had much time to read or post. Things have slowed down at work and are coming to a head in my M so I need to post and hopefully have someone talk me down form the ledge.
To catch up over the last few months, up until a few weeks ago, things have been pretty much the same. H being cold and distant and blaming me for everything. He said he forgave me but needed to see a postive change. But, I felt like nothing I did was ever right, even if I felt it was a positive (180, etc.) he would spin it into a negative.
Part of our "separation plan" was that we would meet for dinner once a week. But he started cancelling and not rescheduling. Weeks would go by before we would do dinner. He also took me off his family's weekly prayer list, commented on future events without me (plans for trips, wedding in April). I felt like we were in a downward sprial. He would say he wasn't happy being in limbo but was not making a decision either way.
He was also plastering all over socal media drinking and going out pretty much every night. He was becoming friends with various single girls and liking all their pictures. I have suspected there is something going on with a single girl in our circle of friends, but kept my mouth shut about it.
I continued to see our counselor and I told her that honestly I didn't want to see him or talk to him. She said that if any part of me wanted to save this marriage, we needed to have some contact. So, I continued to respond to his texts (he was still texting every day) but not initiating and once a week would ask if we were going to do our weekly dinner.
H was still giving mixed signals. One day he came by the house while I was at work to get some stuff and when I came home he had cleaned my kitchen...so strange. But would then be mean again. At the end of February we both were doing a race (H was doing a half marathon and I was doing a 8k). His race was first and I got there a little early and cheered for him at the finish line. We talked a little and I said congratulations and went to get ready for my race. I was very surprised to see him at my finish line over 2 hours later. All very confusing.
At one of my counseling sessions in February, the C asked if H could come to the next session and I said sure. So at the end of the month, we went back together for the first time in a month. His demeanor was different this time. Not as cold as he had been. Still blaming me but not as forceful. Still said he didn't know what he wanted,sometimes he missed me and wanted to come home, sometimes he didn't. Said he felt like I was using our vows to trap him into staying married. Asked what if he chooses to work on it and we just go back to the same old relationship. After he left, the C said she worried that if we did decide to work on it, he would hold everything over my head forever.
During this time we were dealing with an insurance issue and we talked on the phone numerous times for the first time since October. All excuses for him to text, call, etc. But still only dealing with business matters, no real conversation. Although I still very much wanted to save my marriage, I think I started to feel differently. Questioning how long I was willing to wait for him to decide, feeling better and not so sad/angry all the time.
We finally made some plans to do dinner around 3/16. Since I felt better, I was able to act nicer, act "as if", not bring up the R. Since then we have had dinner/lunch every week. H has not cancelled and has even been the one to bring it up a couple times.
I went to the C a few weeks ago and I told her I thought I was getting to the end. It's just hard to understand how someone can't know whether or not they want to be married to you after 6 months. I know that many others on this board have been waiting for their spouses for a lot longer, but it just seems unfathomable to me. I want to move on with my life. While I would like to do it with him, why am I putting so much effort into saving a marriage that he doesn't want? Why do I want to be with someone so bad that doesn't want to be with me?
3 weeks ago, he started being very chatty over text. Asking what I was doing for the weekend, wondering who I was going out with, checking in to see how I was doing. Saying thank you for doing the taxes, taking care of paperwork, etc. I generally answer (not right away) and keep it vague. Then almost nothing for a few days. Then back again asking how my day was, wondering my plans. My birthday was the Sunday before last. I had plans with some girlfriends to go out to dinner and then out. He was very curious to where we were going, who I was with, etc. We went out and had a great time, stayed out until 2. On Sunday morning, I got a happy birthday text. We chatted a little over text, he was very curious about my night, and that was it. And at that point, I felt done.
I've been thinking for a while that I want to move on with my life and if he still doesn't know what he wants, then we need to just move forward with the divorce. While it's not what I want I'm just not sure I can continue to wait for him while he is out doing who knows what with who knows who, knowing I am here waiting for him when he is done being single guy. I couldn't believe that he couldn't even pick up the phone on my birthday and all I got was a text. I'm sure that is more than some LBS' get but it just hit home for me. What am I trying to save?
The Monday after my birthday we met for lunch. Before we left I told him that I couldn't do this anymore and I needed to move forward with my life. He seemed surprised but said he still didn't know what he wanted. I said we should probably meet to discuss finances. He gave me a really long hug (the first in months) Of course a part of me wanted him to say that's not what he wanted, but I didn't do it as a tactic. While it's not what I want, I really feel like I need to move on. I don't want to waste anymore of my life on someone who doesn't think I am important.
He was still very chatty throughout the week. I was having second thoughts and thought maybe I'd just not bring it up again and see what happened. I took all of our pictures down in the house on Friday. I went out of town for the weekend to visit family for Easter. He came by on saturday to mow the yard and texted me and said "Thanks for taking all the pictures down. Really?" It really made me so mad. We have been "separated" for 6 months, he hasn't been wearing his wedding ring and he has been out of the house for 3 months. Why does he care about the pictures? Then he texted me that he found a shirt in the backyard. I asked what kind and he said a man's plaid long sleeve. I said I had no idea whose it was and he questioned me two more times about it. Where is this coming from all of a sudden?
So now I feel like I have messed up big time. Total backslide and not sure what to do. Hit me with 2x4's please.
He was still very chatty over the weekend, on Sunday wished me a happy easter and said he hoped I was having a great time with my family. Yesterday he texted me and asked if I wanted to meet him for lunch. I met him and it was good. More natural than it has been in a while. When I got up to leave, he stood and gave me a hug.
When I got back to work I was scrolling through FB and was looking at the list of people you may know. I clicked on this one person I didn't recognize and noticed we had my H in common. She had recently posted a pic, and my H and the girl I had suspected him of being involved with was in it (were also a few other people). They were all sitting around drinking wine in the courtyard of his apartment. I was so upset. I couldn't keep it in, so I immediately called him and asked him to be honest with me and tell me whether or not anything was going on between them. Of course he said no, they were just friends, but I do not believe this at all. She doesn't live in his apartment complex and was not friends with any of the other people in the picture (I believe they all also live at his complex). so the only way she was there was if he invited her to come hang out there. This is someone who he just met 2 months ago. I immediately regretted calling. I don't want him to think I care or that I was looking at him on fb. I felt like I was punched in the stomach and got the wind knocked out of me. I said sorry, forget I even said anything and got off the phone. He immediately texted me and said is there anything else I can answer for you. I said nope that's about it. I again said forget about it, he said why are you acting like this. He then said he would come by this week to talk about the financials. So I guess this is it.
You seem to be handling all of this pretty well. To me, it looks like he's beginning to see what life without you is really going to be like and based on his reaction to the shirt, he's jealous. That, coupled with the fact that you went out with your girls and stayed out until 2 am, may make him think that there is another man involved in your life now.
Keep GALing and work on improving yourself. He can remain undecided as long as he likes but at the end of this, you'll come out a better and stronger person if you stay focused on yourself. You can't make this decision for him but you can make him see what kind of person you really are and your commitment to your marriage.
Goodluck =)
I just caught up on your thread and really don't have much to add.
He actually drove past the new apartment on our way home and the landlord just “happened” to be standing outside waiting for him to sign. So, he did it with me in the car….
What an a$$ move.
Had to say it.
Oh, I wish I was handling this well. I'm trying, but I am so confused, hurt, angry. Part of me wants to do whatever I have to to save this marriage and the other part of me is ready to give up. I'm really trying to GAL, have a PMA, act like I am fine when I am dying inside. Sometimes I don't know when to STFU.
Don't have much in me tonight for wisdom. I'll send you some good will. One day at a time.
For what it's worth, my mantra is to "act with the character you wish he had".
If you allow your feelings to cause you to throw in the towel, you have no right to be upset for him to allow his feelings to cause him to do the same. (kind of- you know what I mean).
So I'd say if you believe that people are supposed to stick by their vows regardless of how they FEEL (which I do), then that's what you should do. Doesn't mean it's not ok to FEEL like punching him in the face now and then. But follow your beliefs and have faith.
Thanks Sherman for stopping by.
I agree with what you are saying Zues. I do believe in my vows, regardless of how I feel. I have been sitting here waiting for 6 months, DBing, trying to be nice when he is being cold and validate where I can. And the whole time he is out there living the single life, going out all the time, maybe seeing someone else....I think he would be happy to just continue on this path forever. Not actually getting divorced, but not working on the marriage either. He's not losing anything in this situation. So I guess my question is how long do we let them treat us like this, hoping that they will wake up when who knows if they ever will?
Hi NoneGirl. Sorry you are going through this. One thing to consider, and I think every LBS is guilty of this (understandably so) is that we always think our WAS is out living up the large life. Running around with a new love and never giving the LBS a second thought. While I suppose it has happened, usually it is not the case. Now if there is an OW in the picture, yea, he probably feels life is great and does not think much about you. Just remember As rarely last. While they are going on, you are not on his radar. But do not fool yourself for a second that he is not in pain...whether or not he shows it.
I know its not much help, but 6 months is really not a long time. Sure, we as "rational" people cannot understand why it takes that long to figure out what they want. Its just too bad rational thinking is not a strong characteristic of WAS.
When I answer that I'm writing a book and getting rich.
Obviously there comes a time. I shouldn't say obviously, there are people I've heard about that remain faithful to their vows their entire life because of their beliefs. I am probably neurotically committed to marriage, I would say however at some point there's no more marriage.
When in doubt, however, a few months never hurts. I know it feels like it's eternal, but it's really not. My D hasn't even been started yet officially, and my STBX has been with OM since BD or before. Part of me wants just wants it done, but I'm breathing deep because I need the time to heal anyway. No need to rush. I'll NEVER regret spending a year moving slowly and cautiously during this period of my life.
And you're not "letting him treat you that way". He's treating you the way he treats you. You get to decide how to respond. What do you respond to with openness. What do you respond to with common courtesy. What don't you respond to at all. How do you define your boundaries.
It's definitely a tricky spot between "keeping the road home smooth", "reattracting him", "validating", etc, and "being a plan B" or allowing "cake eating". Many people on the board would tell you to reduce contact, detach, move on, and let the chips fall where they will. My DB Coach says that tends to be overrated, and that oftentimes they need you to reattract them to some extent (without pursuing). One thing I do believe is that there is a BIG difference between how to handle it if there is an other person involved or not.
I'm sorry I don't remember the details- during your separation agreement, did you discuss whether you could see other people? Do you know whether he is?
I think this is important. If he's "just" confused (I use quotes because it is DEVASTATING and I'm not minimizing it), it may make sense to take some pressure off the M and just GAL for a while, be casual, and see what comes. My DB coach reminds me at times like that- THIS ISN'T THE MODEL for the future M, where you suppress all of your needs and just stuff it. But for a short time on occasion that is appropriate. On the other hand, if there is an OW I think there needs to be a much more drastic and firm approach (as per sandi's LBS H with a WW thread).
If you don't know I'd even consider hiring a PI to find out. That may sound insane, but there's such a big difference that I'd probably want to know. And frankly, at this point I feel that if I really couldn't figure out, I'd assume there was an OW and act accordingly. Hate to say it but the vast majority of the time there is, whether just a friend that crosses boundaries and becomes emotionally supportive, or an actual PA. I hope that's not the case but I think it's valuable information for you personally and strategically.
Vets- can you chime in on this please? BUMP!
The past week has been strange. On Monday he sent me this text:
"I forgive you for what we are going through and your part. I hope you can forgive me and I don't hate you. We fortunately serve a God full of grace and he uses everything only to grow us." I just responded that I didn't hate him and I forgave him for his part too. He then said he would come over one night this week to start talking about the division of assets.
We sent some more texts back and forth about money. Then today out of the blue he sent me this text: "I really hope you know that I am not dating anyone and I really don't hate you."
I said that I didn't know what to believe. Then I asked him why he cared what I thought anyway since he seemed ready to move forward with the divorce. He said that he still cared about me. We went back and forth a little bit and he said we could talk about it when he got "home" tonight.
So he came by tonight and it was so horrible. He said that he doesn't ever want to go back to the marriage we had and that he doesn't think things can get better so it would be best for us just to go forward with the divorce. He said he has tried too many times and doesn't want to anymore. While it's not what he wants he feels that it would be best. He's happier now than he was in the marriage and just can't see going back. He doesn't want to hurt me but he doesn't want to be married to me anymore. He cares about me but doesn't love me anymore.
I wish I could say I did everything I was supposed to in this situation, but I didn't. I did EVERYTHING wrong. I got upset, I asked him why he was doing this, I asked him to reconsider, I cried. In 45 minutes I ruined any progress that I have made in the last few months. Why couldn't I just keep my mouth shut?
I really think this is it, I don't think he is going to ever come back.
I wish I could say I did everything I was supposed to in this situation, but I didn't. I did EVERYTHING wrong. I got upset, I asked him why he was doing this, I asked him to reconsider, I cried. In 45 minutes I ruined any progress that I have made in the last few months. Why couldn't I just keep my mouth shut?
I really think this is it, I don't think he is going to ever come back.
I know it feels like it, but try not to dwell on it. You backtracked a bit, but it happens. And will happen again. The reality is nothing changed for the better or worse today. His mind is still where it was yesterday. He will probably have those feelings for the foreseeable future as well. You need to remember to limit your expectations and in doing so you can help control the emotional roller coaster.
So sorry Nole. Listen to Pilot. No expectations. Don't believe what you hear.
I reread your thread and to now don't think you've really taken full advantage of self reflection (at least not on this site). So you split once, got back together, now are split again.
What would he say are the reasons why he can't be with you? Did you try to make any changes after the first reconciliation? Did they last, and did he acknowledge them? What about now? What are his "deal breakers"?
If you can avoid looking at his part of it and use this pain to motivate you to make some true positive changes it will make you feel better for many reasons. One, you'll know you did everything possible for your M. Two, you'll know you won't make those mistakes again and it will be less likely you'll be in this spot. And three, you'll feel like a different person and the pain you're going through will dissipate at some point.
Please share with us and keep posting.
Pilot-You are right, it seems so unfathomable that it takes people months or longer to figure out what they want.
Zues-As part of our separation plan we agreed not to date. While I don't have any proof that there is an OW, I believe that there is. I saw a picture on FB of him and a girl I have suspected something is going on with earlier this week. I confronted him but he swears that they are just friends. I really don't believe him. The problem is I'm not so sure he is confused. I think he wants a divorce (pretty much told me so tonight) but hasn't had the courage to tell me because he doesn't want to be the bad guy. I think he was just waiting for me to get tired of waiting for him so he can blame it all on me.
Ask yourself if your H having an affair with OW is a deal breaker. If it is, and you strongly suspect, then you need to take the steps to find out for sure. If it is not a deal breaker, then as hard as it is, ignore it. And yes your H is going to swear up and down D is the only answer. My W did the same thing. She was having an A and basically rubbing it in my face. She even filed for D. But.....she never served me. She would never sit down to discuss how to settle the D without an attorney. At the same time she never wanted to discuss the M either and still insisted D was the only answer. She filed last May. Her filing expired because she did not serve me. I filed in a new state where we both had moved. I served her. And at this time. she is still dragging her feet. Her answers to discovery questions were due a little over 2 months ago. She has yet to turn them in. For someone who is so confident that D is the only answer, other than filing last May, she has done nothing to facilitate it.
Keep your chin up! It stinks where you are now, we all can relate. Focus on you and GAL. It is the only way you are going to get through this with your sanity. Plus it helps pass the time while your H does his own thing on his own time.
What would he say are the reasons why he can't be with you? Did you try to make any changes after the first reconciliation? Did they last, and did he acknowledge them? What about now? What are his "deal breakers"?
He has said I am too controlling and I am "verbally abusive". He says I don't respect him and that we aren't "spiritually matched". I would say that I am sometimes controlling, especially in regard to the budget. I disagree with verbal abuse. On some occasions during a fight I have gotten very angry and yelled, but I don't feel I am verbally abusive. I do admit to not showing respect to him sometimes. I'm not sure what he means by spiritually matched as we are both members of our church and are active in our bible study group.
The first time lasted only about a month and we never moved into different bedrooms or anything. During that time, I stated seeing our MC alone to work on some issues. I read lots of books on anger and how to diffuse it (I had a lot of anger towards him in regard to his cheating). We discussed the budget and how we could move stuff around so he felt like we had more "fun" money. I really tried to respect his opinion on things. For example, when we were laying our wood floors (he had never done it before) I tried to let him figure it out without calling my dad for help. Most of them lasted except for the anger. We were good for like 6 months, bought and moved into a new house, everything seemed good. But the more he started pushing me down the priority list, the more angry I got. I stuffed it all in until I couldn't anymore and would explode.
I don't really think he acknowledged any changes. I always felt like no matter what I did, it wasn't good enough. Now, the things he can't go back to are still the things from before, even though most of them have changed. He keeps bringing up things from the first time even though they haven't happened since.
I have been trying to do a lot of work on myself. I have met with the C 2x a month since October, I have been journaling. I did a 12 week study called "What is it like to be married to me" which takes an in-depth look at yourself as a wife. I've been reading different books on marriage. My C said she can see some positive growth, even though I don't feel like it sometimes.
Thanks for sharing Nole. We're not judging harshly I might add. I admire the fact that you're putting so much in to becoming a better person, a better W, and standing by your M even when you don't feel like it and it's no fun.
One thing that was pointed out to me was that how my WAW felt was what mattered. It didn't matter if I AGREED or not with why she felt that way. If she felt that way strongly enough to walk away than it was an issue.
Your H has left and said that he can never be M to you again. That's pretty serious. These comments: "most of them have changed...they haven't happened since", and "I don't feel I'm verbally abusive", and "I don't know what he means not spiritually matched"...they really are saying "I've made enough improvements he should be happy and not have left me over it". And while YOU may feel that way, he clearly doesn't. As long as you have the perspective that you've pretty well patched things up and he's just impossible to please, overreactive, unappreciative, and disloyal...well, it's hard to take working on yourself seriously.
Let me reiterate, it's NOT black and white. I'm NOT saying you were a verbally abusive selfish controlling nag that drove him away, that he was right to leave you, or that you haven't put in tremendous sustained effort. That's NOT what I'm saying at all.
What I am saying is that if you truly want to respect your H's opinion, you have to start with the biggest opinion he's shared, which is that the things he's shared about your M are powerful enough that he had to destroy his own M to escape them. That's a pretty big statement. He didn't leave the M for the second time over a 3 year old issue that he was too stupid to realize you'd changed.
Take his feedback very, very seriously, and see if you can get to the point where you can acknowledge it without defending yourself. That takes real strength, because it requires faith that you can do better. When you feel you're doing the best you ever possibly could, then we need to defend ourselves and we feel like victims. If you trust that you are capable of continuing this growth, overcoming ALL of these challenges to a level you didn't believe possible...then it's actually empowering to hash through this because it's the very road that will leave to the restoration of your M, or at the very least becoming the person you want to be, and a person that will have a GREAT future M and not go through this again!
Tonight know that I AM proud of you for doing your best when you have no reason other than your own values to do so. And all the growth you've made, even if it was too little too late, is real and good. Keep taking steps and keep posting. Thanks Nole.
hey NG,
You are lucky you are getting feedback. It is hardly a guarantee and doesn't make it any easier for you but I would consider it encouraging if my W and I had separated once before and got back together. In my case we sort of did many years ago before we were married, but that was sort of like a BF and GF thing and a different issue from the one we have now.
I am also in the position of having been the partner who was "controlling and abusive". I think there are certainly reasons I became like this towards her, but I think that is actually part of my personality. Again, I think there are reasons behind why this is the case BUT there are no excuses for being like this to my W or anyone else for that matter.
It may very well be too late already to save my M. I suspect it is. But for the sake of my own future I need to address these issues.
If your partner still "blames" the same reasons you think you have fixed then I think there are several scenarios to consider. Either you haven't really, you have but not enough for him, OR he really has his own reasons and is just using the old rhetoric. I said before it is encouraging that you have come back together after A separation, but maybe he neve really did come back, making it easier to get distracted by another woman. How was the R when you got back together?
I am only a newbie here, with D and s**t, but it is becoming clear to me that there is almost ALWAYS another man//woman. In my case I am willing to believe that at the time of BD this didn't include a sexual A at all. An emotional A is worse in my books. But it could just be another person who makes them feel attractive and so gives them the strength to cut throats at will. (Sorry, got a bit angry towards the end there)
What I am saying is that if you truly want to respect your H's opinion, you have to start with the biggest opinion he's shared, which is that the things he's shared about your M are powerful enough that he had to destroy his own M to escape them. That's a pretty big statement. He didn't leave the M for the second time over a 3 year old issue that he was too stupid to realize you'd changed.
Take his feedback very, very seriously, and see if you can get to the point where you can acknowledge it without defending yourself.
I hear what you are saying loud and clear Zues. In theory I get that he believes the things that he is saying and that it is the truth to him. I've been reading a lot on here about how the WAS blames every problem in the marriage on the LBS so they feel better about leaving. They will take problems in the marriage and make them bigger and make us out to be the bad guy. It's so hard to not defend myself when that is happening. I know I need to be better about that because it never goes well.
If you are never supposed to bring up the R and they never do, how are you supposed to validate those feelings for him?
If your partner still "blames" the same reasons you think you have fixed then I think there are several scenarios to consider. Either you haven't really, you have but not enough for him, OR he really has his own reasons and is just using the old rhetoric. I said before it is encouraging that you have come back together after A separation, but maybe he neve really did come back, making it easier to get distracted by another woman. How was the R when you got back together?
I think he has his own reasons that may have something (but not everything) to do with these issues. I believe that he wants to live the "single guy" lifestyle and do whatever he wants without having to explain himself to anyone. And I think that single guy lifestyle includes hanging out/dating other people. Maybe he wasn't ready to get married because I feel like he just wants to be back in college again. Currently he's living in an apartment, hanging out with younger people, going out every night...no responsibilities.
Well, I haven't heard from H since we had the horrible D discussion on Thursday. This is the first time since all this started that he hasn't reached out at all.
Today has been really hard. H and I started doing triathlons about 6 months before we got married to get in shape for the wedding. We really liked it and it became something we did together. This morning was my first tri of the season and one that we normally do together. The whole time I was out there, I just kept thinking, oh I can't wait to tell H about this or this...because he is the only one who understands exactly what I am going through. But I can't and it [censored]. Just feeling crappy today.
Well, just got a text from H asking how it went. Do I respond?
If you are never supposed to bring up the R and they never do, how are you supposed to validate those feelings for him?
Sometimes it may be as simple as listening, but other times you may just not get the chance.
Well, just got a text from H asking how it went. Do I respond?
What do you want to do?
And Why?
"Well, just got a text from H asking how it went. Do I respond?"
I don't think there's any harm in responding - but keep it very brief, breezy and upbeat....Great - beat my best time ever!
Or something along those lines 4/5 words & happy
What do you want to do?
And Why?
I want to because I don't want him to think I am being a jerk, just didn't know if i should.
Toots, I did respond. I just said it went really good.
Hello NoleGrl,
I I have just read your entire situation. My heart truly goes out to you! From what I've read you are handling things as best you can and are probably stronger than you think.
I was blindsided by my wife walking out on me while I was out of town to visit my son and then she filed for divorce the very next day. So I understand feeling blindsided. I have recently moved my thread from the walk away spouse forum to this forum. I found out I was on the one for the spouses that walk out. Oops!
Just last night I went out and had dinner with a guy I met at a divorce support group I'm going to. I feel like you where I want to get on with my life but I still do have feelings for my wife. My friend thinks she took advantage of me (She has MS) and is very selfish for running out the way she did.
The reason I am mentioning all of this is just last night my friend got me to see that I truly may be better off without her. I still haven't totally given up hope and I've come off the ledge I hope you're not on the ledge if so please step back.
I'm not sure if I making any sense or helping but you might want to look at my situation just the last few days. I got some good advice from people on the board here and I spoke to my wife Thursday and made a big mistake asking her about coming home for a few days.
Please hang in there. You are in a very rough place to be right now. I went through a divorce back in 1999 and never thought I would remarry and I was just so devastated, but time did heal my wounds.
Please by all means take care of yourself first.
Regards,
Bob
Thank you Bob.
Not too much has gone on the past week. After the short text exchange on Saturday regarding my race, I didn't hear from him again until Monday. He texted me about some house business and I asked how his race on Sunday went. He then asked me more questions about my race which I politely responded to. Then nothing for the rest of the week. This is the first time since this whole thing started that he hasn't reached out for some reason or another. I know that one interaction doesn't make or break a sitch, but it sure seems like our talk on Thursday changed everything. He did text on Sunday to ask what kind of sheets I buy, and that was it.
We went from him questioning the shirt, questioning what I was up to during the weekends and getting mad about me taking down the pictures to no contact for a week. Can they really just fall out of love with us and not even care to talk to us anymore?
For those of you that don't have kids, do you still have interaction with your was? Now that certain business is taken care of (taxes, insurance, etc.) and we are not doing weekly dinners, I feel like there is no chance to show change. Especially if we are not initiating contact and the was doesn't make any contact with us.
I really hate this emotional roller coaster. Some days I feel more detached than others. Sometimes I can go for a while without thinking about him, and sometimes he is all I can think about. Sometimes I feel like I can be happy without him and sometimes I feel like I am going to cry at the drop of a hat. I know I am not alone and we all go through this, but it doesn't make it easier.
I have been checking out his social media this past week and noticed that he has not been posting as much as he normally does. I know that it doesn't mean anything, but I think it is interesting.
Nole, thanks for posting again. I am really sorry you're having a tough time. Yes, we have some clue how you feel but you're right, it doesn't change how devastating it feels.
I DO have children with WAW and can't comment on that piece. What I will say is what I tell my sales people: Focus on RESULTS you CAN'T control and you will feel terrified and helpless. Focus on BEHAVIOR you CAN control and you will start to feel confident and strong.
Things you can't control: What your WAS is thinking, whether he notices your changes, whether he is having 2nd thoughts, etc.
Things you CAN control: What you're doing for personal growth, your 180s, your GAL activities, your self care.
It's totally normal and ok to spend a little time wondering about WAS. You need to go through that for a bit so your mind can calm down and see it doesn't help you much. But when you feel too much pain, please go back to yourself, and taking care of yourself. You don't deserve to hurt.
So- my challenge to you would be to reread your last two posts and see how much of that you can control. Now make another post and talk about what you're doing this week that you can. I can't promise you'll feel better (because you can't control feelings directly
) but you will have done what you could!
Take care and keep posting!
I reread the last couple of pages. This along with many other posts I've read this week has inspired me to write the following sentence:
*********The biggest threat to the LBS's growth is the WAS's behavior.**********
See, the WAS acts like a brat. Yes, your H is living the single lifestyle. He is treating you poorly. He broke his vows. He may have some commitment issues, or not be mature, or chew with his mouth open.
He's giving you plenty of opportunity to take your eyes off of your behavior.
And if you do you'll feel...what? Vindicated? Righteous? Empowered ("I deserve better!" is something I see a lot from LBSs on this board)?
Well, you can do that if it makes you feel better. But by going down that road you won't grow.
So which do you want? To be right? Or to grow and have a shot at your M back? And actually a better M with a man that mysteriously acts like a better H in a healthier R?
If you want to be a victim we can give you sympathy, but we can't give you your H back. I'd really like to see you make the decision to let your H go and focus on your own growth. How much do you feel you've changed from your first post until now?
its odd how the "I deserve better" mentality is seen as the strong, healthy attitude to adopt.
NG - I can see how having no kids would make it tough for future contact once the dust settles, but honestly, I envy you. I love my W, and dearly want her back but I think I would gladly give that all up to NOT have my girls going through this and "coping" with it for the rest of their lives. And this is aside from bearing the guilt that I am the one who could have avoided all of this IF only I had learnt what I am poised to now.
Forgive me if I missed it, but did you ever read DB or DR?
So- my challenge to you would be to reread your last two posts and see how much of that you can control. Now make another post and talk about what you're doing this week that you can. I can't promise you'll feel better (because you can't control feelings directly
) but you will have done what you could!
Things I can control this week: keeping up with my exercise schedule, not checking his FB and instagram, try to keep a positive attitude, remember that God has a plan, having a great girls weekend in Nashville. I am very excited for my GALing this weekend. I am meeting 5 of my college friends for a girls weekend. Really need to get away and not think about this for a little bit.
Yes, I do get focused on H's behavior....and it's not so I can feel empowered or righteous its because it's really hard to look at this person you think you know and you've pledged your life to and wonder who the heck they are.
Sometimes I don't get it right, but I'm doing the best I can in a sh**ty situation. I read every book I can get my hands on, done some self reflection and positive thinking studies, trying to regain my independence and go out with friends more.
Are DB and DR one of the books you've read? We'll be able to help your particular sitch if we know you understand the basic concepts.
Pyrite, I'm sorry that your kids have to go through this, it really isn't fair to them. I can say that I am glad that we don't have kids as it would just make it harder.
MrBond, yes, I have read DR a few times.
Thanks for replying. Yes, WAS's behavior can be disturbing. It's easy to feel like a victim already, then when you see the way they act sometimes it can validate those feelings. But really, you say you're not the same person you were...well, maybe in a couple of years he won't be the same person he is now. Not fair to forgive yourself and not allow him the same opportunity to grow.
Again, every time the right answer is to look in the mirror. It's not about assigning blame, comparing who's worse, or anything like that. It's just about doing the only thing you can- taking 100% accountability for your situation and doing what works to change yourself.
You mention you've read a lot of books and have grown a lot. For me I find it useful to talk about the breakthroughs I'm having, the changes I'm making, the things I see differently. It's a positive log of progress I can go back to, and hold myself accountable to. I'd love for you to share some of the things you are working on now and how that's going.
Keep posting.
Maybe it's just too late or maybe I'm not growing at all, but I'm having a hard time answering that tonight. I'll get back to you.
Zues,
Can you please explain how you've arrived at this conclusion?
I reread the last couple of pages. This along with many other posts I've read this week has inspired me to write the following sentence:
*********The biggest threat to the LBS's growth is the WAS's behavior.**********
To me, no one can ever threaten your own growth unless you permit the behavior to interfere with it. If someone wants to act "as stupid as stupid gets", that's on them...not you. I fail to see how the WAS' behavior is the "biggest threat" to a DBer's growth.
I've witnessed amazing growth among many DBers here despite and in spite of their WASes ornery behaviors and choices.
Again, how does a WAS' behavior threaten one's personal growth??
Thank you Wonka for visiting my thread. I can't answer for Zues, but I think that at least for me when I let my emotions take over and react to WAS' behavior I am sabotaging my own growth. Unfortunately I am still not as detached as I need to be and his behavior still affects me. That is something I am working really hard on. I have to continue to remind myself that he is on his path and I am on mine. I hope our paths will cross again but I'm not so sure.
You mention you've read a lot of books and have grown a lot. For me I find it useful to talk about the breakthroughs I'm having, the changes I'm making, the things I see differently. It's a positive log of progress I can go back to, and hold myself accountable to. I'd love for you to share some of the things you are working on now and how that's going.
I'm not sure I ever said I've grown a lot. I mentioned some of the things I have been doing since this started like reading, doing a 12 week study "What is it like to be married to me", seeing my C twice a month, GALing. The problem is "in real life" (aka outside of my marriage) I am a pretty easy going, calm, even keeled person. I am very organized and like to have a plan, but I generally don't have to control that plan if that makes sense. And to a certain extent, I was like that in my marriage. But I think the anger towards H for cheating on me a year into our marriage took over. And then it was like every little thing H did was a bigger issue to me. It may have been a little issue, but to me it was part of a bigger issue and it just built up until it came out in an outburst. I digress....I'm not writing this to blame, just kinda putting out there where I think my issues come from.
Anyway, anger is not a problem outside my marriage. I don't yell at my family, friends or co-workers. Ever. So, some of the growth is digging down and trying to figure out why I am so angry with H and how to deal with that in a more healthy way. And it's hard because I am still angry with him, now for leaving and not honoring his vows and just giving up on our marriage. But by recognizing my part in it and working with my C I am starting to let that go. Really trying to forgive him for his part in all this. So I think that is a little growth (though when he is pushing my buttons it is really hard to control those emotions).
Sorry if this was rambling and I'm still not sure I answered your question fully.
Just a little journaling/updating. Got back from my girls weekend in Nashville yesterday and had a great time. It was really good to just get away from all this for a little while.
On Thursday H texted me and asked if I had come up with a proposal (for division of assets for divorce) and when I wanted to meet to discuss. I replied that I had not had time to go through everything and asked him if he had his proposal ready. He said no. I told him that we could meet next week as I was out of town until Sunday. He said to have fun in Nashville. A little later he texted me to see who was watching the dogs while I was gone. I let him know the pet sitter would be coming. I received an alarm notification that the garage door was open, so I asked him if he was at the house. He said yes as he needed to get some things. (A prior boundary was that I asked him to let me know when he needed to come by to get things as it was unsettling to come home to things missing from the house. He's taken a mop and bucket, car wash supplies, cleaning supplies, etc. which I only noticed when I went to use something and found it was gone.) So I said, please don't just come over to the house without letting me know, as you do not live here anymore. He said it's still my house too.
When I got home last night he had brought back all the towels and sheets he had taken when he moved out, as well as the duvet from the guest bedroom, and left them in the hamper.
Then this morning he texted again regarding meeting to split the assets. I said I didn't think it would be very productive until we had both exchanged our proposals and had a chance to review them (none of our previous discussions have gone well as we both have different ideas of what is "fair"). I let him know that I was busy Tuesday and Wednesday but could meet after that. He said he was going to be out of town from Wednesday through Sunday and then asked how my trip was. I said it was really fun. Then he said he hopes we can do this without lawyers. I said I hope so too but we will have to see.
When I got home from work today he had a notification of an address change. By buying new towels and sheets, changing his address and pushing me to meet to divide our assets, it sure feels like this is becoming more permanent...he is also going days between contact when not too long ago, he texted every day. While I didn't feel ok, it definitely didn't knock the wind out of me like it would have a couple weeks ago, or let's be honest even a week ago. Maybe this detachment thing is slowly happening.
Nole Girl I'm glad to hear that you went on a girl's weekend. Are you taking care of yourself in other areas, like sleep, eating, exercise?
Hi Nole,
So... what do you like about this guy?
RealMe, thank you for asking. Yes, I am eating right (for the most part) and keeping up with my exercise. I go to the gym five days a week. H and I used to do triathlons together, but I got burned out. Within the last four months I have been back training and did a sprint a few weeks ago.
TenBook, is this a trick question? Just kidding. Well....right now not much. But, I would like to think that this person he is now is not the "real" H and he is acting this way because he is hurting, in the fog, being a WAS....and the "real" H is the person I fell in love with and married. Who knows if that is true or not. The person I married was kind and loving and made me a priority in his life. Even though we are complete opposites, we complemented each other. I liked the fact that he could walk into a room of strangers and talk to anyone. He made me laugh. He was patient with me, even when I pushed his buttons.
Nole,
I am in the same boat as you. I have no children with my H. Once he moves his stuff out there is really no reason for us to stay in contact.
Right now, him and I are on somewhat friendly terms and are communicating regularly. Last week....not so much. Things can change in the blink of an eye.
Sometimes I wonder if completely detaching would not be easier for me.
I hold out hope, but don't want to be hurt again.
Tough situation to be in. However...as wise Cadet has said in many posts:
We have been given the gift of time. This time is for us to work on ourselves and to find our own happiness without our husbands.
Just wanted to say hi, and let you know there are others here without children. And yes the NC is scary, but out of my control.
there are lots of similarities between your H and my ex. And I also had issues with not feeling like a priority and then losing the plot. I too am an introvert and like my alone time. But when I want company with my man I want it in my way on my terms. I realise now I did a fair bit of 3 year old tantrum throwing to get my way! Lol look folks no hands JB, is learning! Lol ( sorry just had to take proverbial out of myself)
Hang in there NG! The emotions come like waves, you just need to let wash over you, try now to thrash about, and note if you see rip try to avoid it, just saying. Lol
I just wanted to say too, from how you talk about yourself and your life and your interests, you sound dynamic, focussed and a major catch! Have you forgotten how fabulous you are ? Just curious....
Hugs to you NG.
Diana, I know what you mean by things changing in a blink of an eye. Just a few weeks ago, H was questioning me about a shirt he found at the house, why I took the pictures of us down, reaching out to see how my day was, asking me to meet him for lunch and giving me hugs to NC for days at a time, only now contacting me to talk about splitting our assets...
JB, Emotions are like waves for sure. Yesterday I felt good, but this morning I woke up super emotional and feel like I am going to cry at the drop of a hat. I can definitely relate to acting like a 3 year old to get my way though.
It's so hard to remember how fabulous we are when our WAS' are saying how horrible we are and that they can't stand to be married to us. I guess that is what GALing is for, to get back out there and find the person we were before this.
So H texted me again this morning asking me to email him my proposal and to move forward with getting the house appraised. I have not responded yet.
The last time we met to talk "finances" it turned into a R talk and he was cold and mean and said he didn't love me and want to be married to be anymore and I backslid all the way to 0 and cried and pleaded. So, I think he knows that this is not what I want. But on other occassions he has said this is what I wanted.
So, my plan was to respond "ok" and then say that I do not want to get a divorce, but if that is what he wants I will not stop him. I wanted to make sure it is clear, but sometimes I don't always make the right decisions. Thoughts?
Why is he expecting you to get the house appraised and do all the work?
You know MrBond, that is a really good question.
Zues,
Can you please explain how you've arrived at this conclusion?
*********The biggest threat to the LBS's growth is the WAS's behavior.**********
To me, no one can ever threaten your own growth unless you permit the behavior to interfere with it. If someone wants to act "as stupid as stupid gets", that's on them...not you. I fail to see how the WAS' behavior is the "biggest threat" to a DBer's growth.
I've witnessed amazing growth among many DBers here despite and in spite of their WASes ornery behaviors and choices.
Again, how does a WAS' behavior threaten one's personal growth??
Wonka- Absolutely a LBS can grow regardless of what WAS does. The threat I referred to was when a WAS is acting really destructively, it makes it all too easy to focus on their behavior. Getting caught up in their drama, thinking that "they're the ones with the issues", or "I only acted how I did because they were crazy, now I have proof, look at them".
That's the threat. It was a warning to "stay in your own sandbox" as 25years says. I know I had that problem when my WAW did...doesn't matter, a/b/c craziness. Doesn't change the fact that I have my own ship to run.
Thanks for asking, I hope no one misinterpreted that.
It's so hard to remember how fabulous we are when our WAS' are saying how horrible we are and that they can't stand to be married to us. I guess that is what GALing is for, to get back out there and find the person we were before this.
THIS. Absolutely.
That is why I am not interested in dating. No- I shouldn't say I'm not interested. I am sorely interested in the idea of having bright attractive women spending time with me and helping me "prove to myself" that I am a catch.
But the problem is that if I don't believe that on my own, without validation from someone else, there will be problems. Maybe that would lead to me trying to control her behavior to make her love me so I feel good about myself, even if I was abusive in the process. Or maybe that would just lead to me always feeling insecure, and only covering it up with medication from superficial interactions with other broken spirits desperately clinging to each other to drown out our loneliness.
Point is, you're right. It IS very, very hard. Maybe especially for me, a guy that has battled feeling insufficient all of my life. There have been times I am nearly overpowered to find someone to love me. I just want to see if I can transcend that with growth and time. I like the idea of being able to choose to be in a relationship because you want it, not because you need it.
And Mozza- to be fair, it's possible that my commitment to M stems from my desperate need to not face being responsible for my own emotional care. That I consider breaking the vows to be abandonment of the worst kind, because in some ways it felt worse than death. I admit that and am working on it. So that's one reason I believe in commitment and cling to a M.
****OK, after all the rambling, here is my mission statement:
I'd like to be ok on my own not so I can walk away from an M when it doesn't go the exact way I want, but so I can be strong enough to allow a healthy M to grow (for better), and strong enough to care for myself and remain committed and mature when I go through periods where my needs aren't being met and I'm not being validated by my partner (and for worse).
Here here Zues! That mission is so worth achieving. I wish I was half as eloquent as you!
Well, I now have confirmation of OW. One of my friends saw them out together last week. I know I shouldn't have said anything, but I did. At first he played dumb, then tried to deflect by questioning my motives in asking, then said that they were just friends hanging out. Then he goes into that fact that he hasn't changed his mind about us getting a divorce (so I guess then it's ok to date someone else?) and that all I've ever tried to do is manipulate and control him.
Then he again asked about getting the house appraised and splitting the assets. I told him that he wanted the divorce so he could figure it out. Then he said I have mentioned wanting out previously and now I don't want a divorce? I said that I have been fighting for our marriage since October and the whole time he had just been placating me by saying he was confused and that him moving out was only "temporary" but he knew all along what he wanted. Then he said.....that he had to move out because he was CONCERNED FOR HIS SAFETY! WTF? He said that he was scared because I had a gun (which he told me at one point during our in house separation that he didn't want it in the house so I locked it in the glove box of my car). I have done a lot of things, but I have NEVER threatened him with violence in any way or mentioned the gun or alluded to it in fights or anything of that nature.
I mean no wonder he thinks it's ok for him to divorce me, he is telling himself that I was going to harm him. I mean really?!
I am so not detached, I'm horrible at DBing, every interaction we have just reinforces his desire to get a divorce. I'm not sure there is any hope for our marriage.
Nole-
Couple of things. First off, read this link. I just read it the first time yesterday, I wish I had 10 months ago:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=588545OK. Now you know the script. So no need to be surprised about it. Chillax and detach. Your WAH is on a roller coaster. You get to choose if you ride along. You can only control you.
Do you want to be the clingy person that is dragged through heck and back because you can't stand on your own two feet, who doesn't have a shot at reattracting your spouse back, and who makes the same mistakes in your next M?
Or do you want to be the strong woman that detaches, does some self care, GAL, and then works hard to grow to become Nole 2.0, someone that either has a shot at bringing H back or that is ready to be in a happy M or happy regardless of a partner?
Nole Girl my heart bleeds for you. I'm sorry that you had to endure the blow of confirmation.
I have my suspicions that my W is in an A but no confirmation.
My IC stresses that I find a silver lining in everything. Everything. Well... .. how in the hell would I (or you) find a silver lining in confirmation of an A? I don't know. If I had to try-
*More motivation to work on yourself for yourself
*Explanation for 'unexplainable' behavior
*Reason to truly detach
My guess is that he thinks he knows exactly how you're going to act now that you know. It's your opportunity to show him how wrong he is.
Please take care of yourself a little extra for the rest of this week and weekend. Any friends or family you can be around?
I'm sorry you're here but I had to Laugh when I read your update.
Not at you or your sitch but your H. My H said the same thing about his safety. He's a pretty built guy and has no reason to fear his safety around me. He used this excuse for him not coming over to our house when I was home. Total script. Don't react to it.
Oh and... You can talk til your blue in the face. There's not one thing right now that's going to make or break it. I thought I could say things that would snap H back to realizing he wanted to be with me. Def didn't happen.
Let him be with Ow. As train told me and I'm telling you - she will show her true colors eventually. Step back and let that happen. its his mess and when it goes up in flames you don't want to get burned
Best of luck
NoleGrl, hugs to you. You are not alone in this emotional roller coaster.
My H has said he is scared of me too and he is over 6ft to my 5ft nothing!!!
I too feel that some days there is hope and others everything he does reinforces the D. My H has me served in March and I still have not detached! it has been so hard for me to do so.
I can't believe after 25 years together he is able to walk away. However, I also know that this hasn't been an easy decision for him and I know he hurt badly at the beginning trying to decide what to do. (H told me this)
Believe it to not, I think they are hurt and confused as we are, and the only way they can see to stop their hurt is to get away from us.
I don't have much advice as I am poorly equipped to deal with my own situation.
Zues, I came across that link yesterday and actually laughed out loud. I mean I'd heard of the "script" but didn't think it was that exact. I mean it sounded like it was coming straight from H's mouth! It is just so amazing to me.
I feel like I am both of the people you described, just at different times. I'm fairly independent, have great friends that I have been making plans with, keeping my life busy, working out and training for various races, self reflecting. BUT, even in doing these things, I always have one eye on what H is doing (or in the case of yesterday, find out without even looking) and bam, its like that other person disappears and out comes the un-detached clingy person who says and does all the wrong things even while knowing she shouldn't be. It's almost like I'm possessed. Just wish I knew how to detach.
Have you read the "Two Wolves Parable"? Google it, the second and third hits look like they take you right to it. Short read, but spot on...shoot, it's short, I just copied it here:
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
WHICH WOLF ARE YOU FEEDING? We always have a choice…
RealMe, thank you for your reply. It is one thing to suspect, but it feels like a knife in my heart to actually have confirmation. Maybe the silver lining is that now that it is out in the open, maybe it can run it's course faster.... I just kept thinking that if he was trying to hide it or it was secret that maybe it wasn't progressing as quickly as it would if it were "public", you know?
TO and Smothy, thank you for your reply. I'm glad I'm not the only one that H is afraid of (you know what I mean)....I thought that was a pretty crazy one, but I guess not.
TO, I have read though all of your threads and wanted to say I'm glad to hear that you and your M are in such a better place. I've read so many, I forget all the details. What did your H say was the reason he changed his mind and came back?
Smothy, it is sure hard to believe that they are hurting too, but I'm sure it is true. Hang in there!
Great story Zues, so true.
I remember during our S it was comforting to hear that others spouses said similar things. It's part of the script.
There wasn't one thing that changed my H's mind. As many other vets have said before the WAS can feel when the LBS drops the rope. I had started realizing that maybe life was better without H. Also I did not involve myself or ever acknowledge that I knew about Ow (there were pictures all over FB).
So he says he saw the boys and I having fun, doing well and all without him. Weren't we supposed to be devastated and sulking at home? I was polite and short with him on the rare occasions we did see each other. I was always nice but didn't pursue (this was a few months after -- I really struggled with pursuing, detaching etc). He said it hit home when
He set up his place and was looking at pictures of the boys and I that he had found packed away.
This is why detaching and GAL is so important for you because it shows you that you will be okay whichever way this swings!
The next stage of this of going to be difficult. While we were having consistent text conversation and seeing each other once a week, that has now all stopped and we have very minimal contact. He is pushing to meet and try and work out the division of our assets. He has said on multiple occasions that I am going to "leave him high and dry" or "leave him on the street with nothing". That is not true, but I do want the division to be fair. In my state, it is equitable division, which takes length of marriage, each parties contribution to the assets, etc. into consideration. Also, while it is a no-fault state, fault can be taken into consideration in property division. Adultery is one of the "faults".
So, I can imagine that walking the line of not doing "more of the same" in his eyes (ie, controlling, lawyering him, manipulating) and sticking up for myself in the settlement is going to be hard. So I'm not quite sure how to approach that. And I also feel that I am running out of time. Once we get this ball rolling, I think it will play our fairly quickly.
This is just kind of thinking out loud...even when I feel that I am doing ok in my interaction with H (which does happen sometimes), he still will say I'm "throwing daggers" at him or playing games. And I get that it takes consistent change for a long period of time for them to actually notice and when we backslide they just think we haven't changed. But do you think they actually can see the change? I mean sometimes I feel like it doesn't matter what I do, because it's never good enough. He is only seeing what he wants and believing what he wants to believe to make it easier to leave. And I know my changes are for me and not him, but honestly isn't that why we are all here....to save our marriage?
So a few months ago, H said that he was approached about taking a job in another city about 4 hours away. I asked if he was thinking about doing it and he said he was keeping his options open. I never heard anything more about it (not that he would talk to me about it anyway).
He also has family in this city, his brother and sister and their families. For the 4 years that we were together before all of this, we didn't go to visit his family in that city one time. I tried to make plans to go spend the weekend, but it never panned out. He's been once since all this until 2 weeks ago. He spent the weekend there 2 weeks ago and is spending the weekend there again this weekend. I'm wondering if he is interviewing or is considering taking the job?
I know this is all just guesswork, but that would totally change everything....
Maybe the silver lining is that....
Yes! Finding a silver lining for yourself in anything- even
horrible things is very self-centered (I mean that term in the best of ways)
The next stage of this of going to be difficult. While we were having consistent text conversation and seeing each other once a week, that has now all stopped and we have very minimal contact. He is pushing to meet and try and work out the division of our assets.
No contact
is difficult. Don't get caught in the trap of thinking that just because you don't initiate it that it's okay or helping. If you're still getting 'pulled in' than it's
not helping you- regardless of who started the conversation.
...even when I feel that I am doing ok in my interaction with H (which does happen sometimes), he still will say I'm "throwing daggers" at him or playing games. And I get that it takes consistent change for a long period of time for them to actually notice and when we backslide they just think we haven't changed. But do you think they actually can see the change? I mean sometimes I feel like it doesn't matter what I do, because it's never good enough.
You answered your own question. Stay detached. No R talk. He does and will notice. It doesn't matter if it's good enough for him- it's not
for him darlin'.
Hello NoleGrl,
Yes, as RealMe pointed out, I think our WAS' do notice the changes. The thing is, they are not confident that they will stick.
Please try to not discuss your R and detach as much as possible. I know you can do it!
BTW, thank you for your post in my thread earlier today. I was so overwhelmed by how many people responded since last night. I tried to thank all of you individually.
In case you missed it, here was my reply to you:
NoleGrl, thank you for taking the time to catch up on my situation and for the nice complement and encouragement. You are awesome!
Have a good evening, please try!
Bob
Hi NoleGrl, Hope you are having a better day of it. Just checking to let you know I was thinking about you. xxJB
Oh, I wish I was handling this well. Sometimes I don't know when to STFU.
Want to start a club? I'm just the same and STFU doesn't come easy to me either.
Sending you lots of hugs!
So a few months ago, H said that he was approached about taking a job in another city about 4 hours away. I asked if he was thinking about doing it and he said he was keeping his options open. I never heard anything more about it (not that he would talk to me about it anyway).
He also has family in this city, his brother and sister and their families. For the 4 years that we were together before all of this, we didn't go to visit his family in that city one time. I tried to make plans to go spend the weekend, but it never panned out. He's been once since all this until 2 weeks ago. He spent the weekend there 2 weeks ago and is spending the weekend there again this weekend. I'm wondering if he is interviewing or is considering taking the job?
I know this is all just guesswork, but that would totally change everything....
Sometimes space and distance can be good. If you're not around you're not to blame for his problems. That's why giving space is such a recommended first step.
My DB coach told me there are four stages to R:
1. Let the dust settle.
2. Establish a non-marital relationship. A friendship like that of a neighbor, based on acknowledgement of each other's autonomy, mutual good will, and respect.
3. Romance.
4. Reconciliation.
In my sitch I am STILL in step 1. 10 months in. Maybe someday we'll go to stage 2. Maybe not. There are no guarantees. But I had a lot of dust to let settle!
Point is, I think the dust still is settling, and sometimes that's needed before you can rebuild a friendship.
Have you ever considered a DB coach?
Zues, I came across that link yesterday and actually laughed out loud. I mean I'd heard of the "script" but didn't think it was that exact. I mean it sounded like it was coming straight from H's mouth! It is just so amazing to me.
I feel like I am both of the people you described, just at different times. I'm fairly independent, have great friends that I have been making plans with, keeping my life busy, working out and training for various races, self reflecting. BUT, even in doing these things, I always have one eye on what H is doing (or in the case of yesterday, find out without even looking) and bam, its like that other person disappears and out comes the un-detached clingy person who says and does all the wrong things even while knowing she shouldn't be. It's almost like I'm possessed. Just wish I knew how to detach.
Wow!!!! This sounds just like me too.
Thank you all for stopping by my thread, I really appreciate it.
Zues, I think you are right, the dust has not yet settled. Even when it starts to settle, I seem to just dust it all up again. I have thought about a coach, but money is tight right now as I am paying for pretty much everything myself. My extra money is going to my counselor twice a month right now.
Journaling: So in the beginning of my sitch, H was way more receptive to me. For the 3 months we were separated but still in the same house, he still told me he loved me, he invited me to come with him to meet people for drinks, texted me throughout the day, checked to make sure I got in ok when travelling, etc., but just didn't know what he wanted, was confused, didn't know if things could change. During this time I was doing all the wrong things, pursuing, pleading, crying.
After he moved out in January that all changed and he slowly backed further and further away (he met OW in January). Now we are at the point where it seems impossible to salvage. I know some of his actions are probably related to OW, but maybe the time away from me really made him realize that he doesn't love me and does not want to work on this? Like he realized that all of his problems were actually because of me after all. I just feel like in the beginning there was hope, and now there is none.
He is pushing on getting this divorce and I just feel like I am running out of time.
For the WAS to return a few things have to happen. They have to feel that it would be different than before. And usually they have to suffer from the consequences of their choices.
At this point I don't think he feels it would be different. And I don't think he's realized the consequences of his choices.
All you can do is address the first half. Really focusing in on the areas you can grow and change. I understand it's hard to show him changes with limited contact, no kids. But it would be IMPOSSIBLE to show him changes if you don't change. And besides, those changes have to be for you anyway. You will benefit either way. So keep talking about what you're working on, your progress, your thoughts on what you would do differently.
As for him feeling the consequences...you can't control that. Yes, it's scary that you can't control the outcome. One of my worst fears was that my STBX would hit rock bottom, make some life changes, and become a great W- 3 years from now after she was remarried. That stinks. But there is nothing we can do about it. It's no different than being with an alcoholic, or a gambling addict. We can't rescue them. They are on their own journey. All we can do is not enable them. We enable by being their 'plan B' as that only SHIELDS them from the consequences of their choices.
So GAL, 180s, detachment...truly are the answer.
Hello NoelGrl,
I am in the same sitch as you with my WAW. We don't have any children together, she moved 3 1/2 hrs away to live with her Mom and we have very limited contact. My biggest concern has been, even if I do change, how will she know?
Well, Zues, in the last post put it so perfectly: "But it would be IMPOSSIBLE to show him changes if you don't change."
So true, isn't it?
Take care....you're in my thoughts and prayers.
Bob
Weekend GAL was good. Went to a baseball game with some friends on Friday and went out with a girlfriend on Saturday, got out of my own head for a little bit.
Hadn't heard from H since Wednesday. On Sunday he sent me a text that just said Hey. Strange since all of his texts recently are usually to the point, "when can we meet to talk finances", "where do you buy your sheets", "have you found someone to mow the grass yet"...I responded after I got out of my yoga class and just said Hey. He asked when I wanted to meet to talk about money (we are going to meet Wednesday), but then asked about my weekend, what did I do, was I having good "girl time", telling me about his weekend visiting family.
Then this morning he asked if I wanted to meet for lunch....I am preparing myself for the worst. I think he is either going to admit to dating OW or tell me he is moving to the city 4 hours away. I'm pretty sure that it is not just a friendly catch up lunch and he doesn't want to wait until we meet on Wed., so something he wants to tell me in person. I will keep my emotions in check, validate if needed, and STFU. Wish me luck!
Good lord that thread has everything my H has said and done to me. It is almost word for word everything he has said and thought to me.
What the heck this MLC is really real and seems to be the same script for all of them.
So lunch was fairly uneventful. Not even sure why he even asked me. It was mostly small talk. Towards the end, he brought up splitting the assets again (even though we had already agreed to meet Wednesday night to discuss it). Asked if I had an idea of what I wanted for when we talked on Wednesday and talked about getting an appraisal. All things that we have talked about 100 times.
Very confusing. I let myself dwell on it for a little while, but then I decided that it's not the first time I've been confused by his behavior and it's probably not going to be the last.
Zues, Bob, RealMe, Jelly, Tulo and Smothy-just wanted to say thanks for the support.
So lunch was fairly uneventful. Not even sure why he even asked me. It was mostly small talk. Towards the end, he brought up splitting the assets again (even though we had already agreed to meet Wednesday night to discuss it). Asked if I had an idea of what I wanted for when we talked on Wednesday and talked about getting an appraisal. All things that we have talked about 100 times.
Very confusing. I let myself dwell on it for a little while, but then I decided that it's not the first time I've been confused by his behavior and it's probably not going to be the last.
Hahaha. Stupid WAS's (not really, but you know). As the vets say, you're confused because he's confused.
Let's not get in the habit of mindreading. I could speculate what dynamics are pushing and pulling him, what needs he may be meeting by seeing you, or anticipating you begging/pleading, etc, etc. Could be temperature checking, could be trying to gather evidence to further vilify you...I just DON'T KNOW.
I know it's hard on you, but I'm so proud you kept it casual and followed his lead. You can't win points in this game, but you can sure lose them, and you did nothing wrong based on what you described.
I wish I could take some of your burden Nole. I'm so sorry you are feeling it so deeply.
But then again, it is a reflection of how much love you have for your H, and who you are as a person. Be proud of your pain, it says noble things about you. Just don't let that become your identity, you're a winner and will allow this to define you in positive ways, not negative ones.
So our meeting about dividing the assets has been moved to tonight. I'm feeling anxious because it usually turns into an argument, but I am going to try my hardest not to let that happen tonight.
I need some advice. Anytime I don't agree with what he thinks is fair, he will say he knew I was going to "leave him high and dry" or "leave him on the street with nothing". That is not true, but I am not going to just roll over and let him have everything and force me out of my house either.
In his eyes I am controlling and manipulative and sticking up for myself in the settlement without reinforcing these beliefs is going to be hard. So I'm not quite sure how to approach that. We both would like to work this out amongst ourselves and not have to pay lawyers, but I have told him that we may need to look into a mediator or getting lawyers if we can't come to an agreement.
Zues, Bob, RealMe, Jelly, Tulo and Smothy-just wanted to say thanks for the support.
NoleGrl,
You're welcome! Wow, I saw your last post today and understand your anxiety.
I'm not sure what to advise at the moment.
Thoughts anyone? NoleGrl really needs our help.
[[[NoleGrl}}}
So our meeting about dividing the assets has been moved to tonight. I'm feeling anxious because it usually turns into an argument, but I am going to try my hardest not to let that happen tonight.
If this is the case then please use a mediator. Put your proposals in writing too, key notes with lots of space on the page so you can add details. Stick to facts not emotions.
I need some advice. Anytime I don't agree with what he thinks is fair, he will say he knew I was going to "leave him high and dry" or "leave him on the street with nothing".
Start with a schedule to demonstrate this.
That is not true, but I am not going to just roll over and let him have everything and force me out of my house either.
Good
In his eyes I am controlling and manipulative and sticking up for myself in the settlement without reinforcing these beliefs is going to be hard. So I'm not quite sure how to approach that.
Stick to listing assets and liabilities. Ignore emotions.
We both would like to work this out amongst ourselves and not have to pay lawyers, but I have told him that we may need to look into a mediator or getting lawyers if we can't come to an agreement.
You will need a list of assets and liabilities. There are many schedules on the iInternet to use as templates. Frankly I would not chose to do this in a meeting, you may end up with more heat than light. Get the basics done and listed then email and mediate.
In reality this ideally should be left to the professionals.
V
I think you need to stick to your guns when it comes to finances and what you want. Who cares if he gets mad at some point you have to draw a line in the sand. Get some respect back from him by not letting him bully you and make you feel bad by saying he knew you would leave him high and dry what about what he has done to you.
I know you want to be nice and not make him mad but at some point if he keeps pushing you will have to.
Thank you V. The last time he came over to talk about finances, it turned into a spew fest about how everything is my fault, that he doesn't want this but it is for the best, he doesn't love me anymore and can't be married to me.
So, we both decided that we needed to put our proposals on paper and email them to each other. That was a month ago and he has continuously asked me to meet him to talk about it, even though he has not sent me his proposal. I've told him multiple times that I didn't think meeting without previously exchanging proposals was going to be productive, but he has been pushing to meet anyway. I have suggested that we engage a mediator to help navigate us through this, but he just ignores it. So I just gave in and said we could meet. I have my proposal ready, and I'm sure he will not have anything and just tear apart what I have proposed. I doubt we will be able to agree, so my goal is to not let it turn into an argument and stop the meeting if needed.
Then Nole you have a boundary.
If he shows up without emailing his proposal, tell him "no way". Keep your cards very close to your chest. Text him before he comes over.
"H, we agreed to email proposals. I still do not have yours. When you have emailed your proposal and I have had time to review then I will meet with you"
Or
" I am going out now. I await your proposal as agreed by email. There is no point in meeting until I get your proposal as agreed"
Or
"No email rom you. Meeting delayed until I get it"
Or
"H, no proposal from you, meeting delayed"
Keep your power. Don't even start the meeting. or do you want to play games?
Try googling Al Turtle Master talk.
V
Well, that was fun. So I texted him to let him know that we didn't need to have the meeting if he didn't have his proposal and he said he would bring it with him. When he got here he pulled out a blank piece of paper and started writing on it. I asked if he had his proposal and he said it was in his head. I told him that I didn't think having this discussion was going to be productive without everything on paper. He asked me to hear him out and so I just listened. He went through what he felt he was entitled to (which with the exception of the equity in the house was actually less than I thought he would ask for).
Before we started he said he never wanted to be here. I just kept my mouth shut as I wanted to say that it was his choice that we were here. He didn't spew, seemed very sure of himself, sure of his choice and seemed to have no interest in ever R. He said he just wanted to get everything filed and done as soon as possible so we could move on.
I guess it went as well as could be expected. There were so many times I wanted to make a comment about OW, but I kept my mouth shut. I stayed calm and waited to cry until he left.
***Pity party alert***
This just hurts so bad. It just felt so weird to be sitting at the dining room table talking about splitting our stuff and filing D paperwork, while he just acted like it was no big deal. Like "let me just sign some stuff and sweep my magic wand over everything and tadaa, I am free and can do whatever or whoever I want". Like the last 4.5 years never happened, like our M is just something that can be undone so easily. He can't wait to be done and I feel like my heart is being ripped out of my body.
I am so sorry to read this. This must have been very painful and humiliating.
What do you want to do? Have you hired an attorney?
It is usually the case the party with the AP/OW wants out of the marriage as fast as possible. That's usually a red flag. Do you have an attorney? If no, I suggest getting one and reviewing your husband's proposal. Just because he says the house equity is XX doesn't mean it is what it should be. Do you even know how much equity is in the house?
Anyway, I am sorry but don't want you to get taken advantage of either.
Nole,
You did well. Ignoring the emotional stuff, you now know without showing your hand exactly how he views the position on the fins. Now you can check and refine the numbers. Don't forget to include intangibles such as pensions and savings. As heavy says now double check everything.
Know this, Nole that was a very tough meeting, even for me and I do this all the time for clients with third parties. H was arrogant enough to think he could dictate to you. Listening was your best strategy, excellently done.
Fins are numbers, it's about protecting your future. Not about emotion. Protect you, L now. The Intel you have will cut your costs with the L. The more you know the cheaper the fees. Interview Ls until you find one you can work with, go armed with your knowledge.
The emotions will go, they are going to pass.
Breathe deep and it will be alright in the end and if it's not alright it's not the end. Besides the fat lady hasn't sung yet.
Your heart can only be ripped out of your body if you let it. You need that heart, it is your most precious possession. It is because you have it that you feel so much and that makes you special.
Your timeline is almost identical to mine and in house S is one of the toughest and I feel the same.
Every day it will be better, your heart will recover, and there will be a beating in your chest again.
((((((((((nole))))))))))
V
Nole,
I've got a few things for you.
1. Hmm. I don't really give forum hugs. I don't know why. Maybe I'm a little shy. Or maybe it's because I'm married and don't like virtual hugging other women. But what the heck.
((((HUGS))))
Is that how it's done?
Hang in there.
2. Your H may or may not have OW, I know most people jump to that conclusion because approximately 137.2% of WAS's do
But really, we don't know that.
The whole thing about him being so confident this is what he wants...let me tell you. He's only fooling himself. He has no clue what he wants. He's confused, he's in pain, he's desperate. So what does he do? He sets a few goals and tells himself when he does A/B/C it will all be better. I don't want to get you started on mindreading, but hypothetically he could say to himself "Boy, I'm so sad and in so much pain. I can't stand it! I know. Once the D is final, our stuff is split, then this will all be behind me, I won't hurt so much, I can meet someone new, and I'll be happy again!"
JUST BECAUSE HE TELLS HIMSELF THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
Have you ever thought something would make you happy, then found out you were still basically the same? I think there's a saying for that: Wherever you go, there you are.
3. So what does this mean to you? How will it play out?
I don't have a crystal ball, but he's on his own journey. Maybe he has a moment of clarity and changes his mind. DR say this doesn't happen often, and if so you take it super slow.
But sometimes people have to make their own mistakes. He might have to achieve his goals, realize they don't make him happy, watch those new dreams die...and then start to realize the costs of his decisions. This could mean him finalizing the D, rebounding in a 12-18 month R, then after the magic fades and things crash and burn, he might walk away and realize the role he played, what he lost, and wonder if it's too late to fix things with you.
Or...he might move on, find someone else, and learn the skills to be a good H after he's already established a new life. This idea haunted me for a long time. If he's going to leave, at least be a dud so we can feel like we didn't lose anything. Don't let him be the guy that turns into a stud right after the door is closed!
BUT IN ALL OF THESE CASES: You have to let him go on his journey. You really do. He is gone. He might never return.
All you can do is focus on becoming the best woman you can be, standing by your values, and finding ways to detach and GAL. Then, after all the dust settles, you are healthy and whole, and you have gotten through your grieving...you can look back to see where he's at, and whether you want to continue to stand, or if you're ready to move on.
So the bad news is that there is nothing you can do to avoid the FULL grieving process for your M. It is dead. And if the opportunity to R ever came up, it wouldn't be with you and your H, it would be with the person you become down the road with the person he has become down the road.
I tell you this because I want you to realize the importance of focusing on you, GAL, detachment, and selfcare. The more you can do to stop depending on someone that won't meet your needs the better.
I know these words are so hard to hear. So I will give you one more (((hug))) and tell you that if we got through this, you will too. But remember, I admire your love for your H. It's just time to pack it away for a while.
Hoping to see some posts just about you, your growth, your GAL in the near future!
Do you have an attorney? If no, I suggest getting one and reviewing your husband's proposal. Just because he says the house equity is XX doesn't mean it is what it should be. Do you even know how much equity is in the house?
We are trying to do it without attorneys (I have some money saved up and would rather put it towards paying him out of the house rather than on attorney's fees). I am also an attorney. I don't practice family law but am generally familiar with the divorce laws in my state. We agreed on everything but the house. We are getting it appraised so the equity will be an actual number. We disagree on the timing of the appraisal-I think it should be from January when he moved out as I have been the one paying the mortgage- and the percentage we are entitled to.
Looks like this thread is going to lock so here is the link to the new one
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2564794#Post2564794