Part 1 - Initial disappearance and NC from beginning by W, unsure of why W left, found out about OM, one weekend of talking about reconciling, then NC from W, initiate mediation
I thought everything was okay Part 2 - Continued NC from W, further distance from W about kids, MCS figures out judgmental tendencies, W finally comes gets her things, stress over communication about kids
I thought everything was okay.....(Part 2) Part 3 - MCS tries to figure out how to control his anger about the sitch. MCS thinks he's 'done' with DB by allowing himself to get too stern about communications about the kids. MCS finds that he's actually starting to detach (finally.) W reduces her NC at counseling and starts to ask MCS about how he's feeling and what he needs for closure.
I thought everything was okay.....(Part 3) Things I'm (still) working on.
Detach, detach, detach (Getting much better)
GAL outside of doing fun things alone
Figure out how to communicate about Kids (starting to get a little better)
STFU about some of her decisions (Doing good at this one)
Try to keep open mind of small changes in sitch (Needs some improvement)
So a recap. It seems like we may have turned the corner as far as discussions about the kids and the overall sitch (not necessarily the marriage)
I've gotten angry at counseling when W seems to ignore the impact the sitch is having on the kids. I finally detached because of this anger. I then told W that she has the choice to either communicate better about the kids or keep it the way it has been (1 line email once a week, 30 min. of mediation.) I planned this into our session as it didn't seem that anything else was working.
After I was stern on that, she tried to cancel MC, but the C talked her out of it. He suggest she reach out and see how I'm 'feeling' about sitch. Just recently, she opened up and asked about how I was about what has happened, expressed that she understands why I'm upset and admitted she's lied to me for a 'long' time.
Much easier conversation good interaction with less hesitation and anger/isolation from both me and W. I can see that we are both learning how to communicate given the current situation. No real signs of any turn in her decision, but it appears that W may be starting to get out of her fog. She's acting more 'normal' and started to voice some of her feelings also.
No real status about OM since a little after Xmas. W actually seemed embarrassed when S5 snuck in a blanket to counseling with the favorite football team of OM. W seems to be a fan now, even though she's always hated football. I seem to care less about what's going on with that, but realize my hands are tied until its actually over.
Anything new, MCS? GALing much?
Mozza,
Thanks for checking in. I've been reading your sitch, but you seemed to be in good hands with the advice you are getting. I actually see things the same as you. The uncertainty that she has is probably part of the 'search' to find who she is. It makes it so more complicated that kids are involved. It was tough for me, but make sure that you have the kids first during your decisions over the next couple weeks.
For me, it has been a GAL weekend. Funny thing with advice is that you normally don't understand it until you are in the situation that you need it. Right now, that's detaching. I thought my Love for my W would dry up if I detach, but its more of just in a holding pattern.
I actually talked to my Pastor today, which was a big step for me since we both are going to the same church. I told him about my reservations of telling him some of the things, since I felt for a while that it would invade my W's privacy. Of course I didn't go into anything other than saying there was 'someone else.' Anyway, he replied back without hesitation about every reason we are here doing DBing.
'No matter what the outcome, you are realizing that you are doing everything possible'
'In relationships, the one that loves the most, usually has the least amount of power/control'
'MCS, you are not doing this just because you want to be married to her, but you also see the goodness in her; even though she might not right now'
'MCS, you are her Husband and a Father, when we have struggles in life, doing whatever we can to keep the balanced is the thing we need to do; even though it never is easy'
'You are showing me, that you thing she's worth the fight. Hopefully, she will see that too'
'MCS, realize that W knows what she did is wrong and she's struggling with it; she doesn't need anyone else to tell her that' (not in reference to me saying anything, just a general observation since he knows my W)
Anyway, it was reassuring and I came away feeling more confident in my DBing. He did say that I'm a 'fixer' and it must be a struggle once I identified a problem that I can't be able to fix it. Also said that going through this whole sitch must be so taxing and overwhelming. Trying to do it with constantly trying to preface or react to how she is feeling at the time must be impossible.
So, in other news; GAL weekend. Just had a bunch of work friends over for a party. Seemed like everyone had a good time, folks were impressed with how good the house looked, how prepared I was for the party (being a guy and all) and also how laid back everything was. Overall a good time, tons of food and drink and happiness in the house.
Lastly, I think that I was about to get 'set up' tonight. I've heard through the grapevine that there's some folks surveying the field of their friends, they just know that I'm not ready yet. I heard one of my co-workers say to another co-worker...'I thought your friend was coming over with you guys' she replied something about how it didn't work out.
Not a big deal, if it was; but I'm glad it didn't happen. However, its a good boost to the good ole' self esteem. I'm sure that there's this balance when detached; but it is good to feel like I'm that 'guy' that people are trying to set up with their single friends. Selfish, sure; but like I said...I know its not the time.
Is your Pastor going to speak with your wife? If she's still attending church doesn't he have a duty to implement church discipline??
Jesus didn't point to the woman at the well and say "there's a good woman, she is just lost right now", no instead he went up to her and told her to "go and sin no more".
It's the least understood and hardest part of a Pastor's job but he's got a flock to protect and a woman (your wife) that needs help and a lifeline.
As far as dating, you're still married and modeling appropriate behavior for married persons to you young children. If you date your kids will have 2 parents that know and understand very little about the marriage covenant. Your vows before God and family remain...until the don't. You have a biblical out, either take it and divorce or wait and see if you can reconcile without breaking your vows. YMMV.
Georgia,
Thanks for chiming in. I'm a thinker and you'll see most of what you have said here, I've thought and prayed long and hard about. One thing out of this whole situation is how much closer I am to my faith. One line in a song comes to my head about this is
"Make me broken, so I can be healed. 'Cause I'm so calloused And now I can't feel"
Well, I was calloused and I definitely can feel now.
First, for me....there's no way I'm dating right now. It was just a boost to my self esteem that people thought that I was a good guy and thought of me this way (i.e. I'm 'marketable'). I can tell you I'm lonely and crave affection, but that's part of being patient.
You are correct I am still married. I feel that way through and through. This is the worse in the "for better or worse"....When I said it wasn't a big deal, I didn't mean about me not getting set up. i meant that I wouldn't make a big deal about them 'trying' to do it, because I'm not interested. They all know that I want this to work out with my W.
I will tell you from a religious aspect, I'm in agreement. The covenant was not just between my wife and I, but also with Him. In fact, one of the reasons that I wanted to reach out to my pastor was to try and figure out how/when a M is actually finished in the eyes of God. I think that my W has thought that she is no longer married to me and its confusing me. I've said you get married in the church and divorced in a courthouse....Where's the closure from a religious standpoint? I know I have an 'out' from what the Book says; but how I see it there's also a lot in there about unconditional love, and well....that 'out' would be a condition to love. I've never thought too much about that Psalm (I think) about Love and all of the attributes. Patient, kind, obedient, rejoices in the truth... Look at those and you have DB almost to a tee.
As far as my W and the Pastor, I'm not sure what he is going to do. Like I said, I was worried for a while that he would approach her. She spent the first couple months after BD shutting out so many people in her life, but she was still going to church and I didn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. Since I detached, I realized that as long as I'm true to myself and to Him, that I can't be worried about how she's going to react to things I do that are right and good. That's one more piece of control that I'm letting go.
He didn't know actually what was really going on before yesterday other than she left suddenly, I didn't know why and we were still separated. He did say that last time he saw her, he said to her that everyone loves her and they are there for her. He also said someone from the Church was going to try to reach out to talk with her.
Lastly, have you seen the movie 'Fireproof?' If not, its pretty good. Not the best DBing (or acting) in there sometimes, but there's one thing that I thought when I read your post. The guy is trying to convince his W of his love for her and the harder he pushes the more she pushes away and he wants to 'give up' on her.
They make the connection that in life, even when we know that we have the right path in front of us, we often push away. However, Jesus doesn't give up on us nor 'force' us to believe in his salvation. We have to make the conscious choice to follow Him. Pastor's have the same struggle. I know he's looking out for her and knows the right path, but he needs to be delicate that she doesn't push herself farther away.
So, just a check in about the sitch....some goodness, I think. I'll take as many baby steps as I'm given right now.
Like I said, our conversation was different last week. It was like I saw glimpse of my W in our talk.
Normally on Monday's, I get a one line email about the kids "Kids were fine" or if she adds something else, it's about going closer to D (i.e. bills, finances, etc.)
Well today, she sent me a long email about the kids and setting things up for them in the near future, PreK for D4, school stuff for S5. Then she even said about me bringing his report card so she could see it. It doesn't seem much, but I was glad that she referenced it because it has seemed like she's been so distant with them.
Anyway, I'm not sure if it was me, her or just timing for both of us. I did use a 'Starsky'-like approach to the other week
"Its your decision W if you are comfortable about our current Communication about the kids or whether you want to improve it"
Anyway, it appears like the fog is lifting and DB aside, its good to see some of the motherly instinct coming back, while it seemed to be suppressed for the last couple months.
Also, heard from the kids that W went to church with her one BFF and family. These friends usually go to the church location that I go to, so going to the one that W goes to has to be out of coordination. They've kept in contact over the last couple months, but this seems like a good thing.
Lastly, a little mind-reading, prognosticating......Kids said they 'hung out' with mom and watched the Kitten Bowl last night. No OM during the weekend, it seems. I guess I expected that W would have tried something to get around him for the game. I figured if anything, she'd have him (his GF) and some other friends over, kinda glad that there wasn't anyone.
So MCS, Ive been following your sitch for a while, even more interested since we had that one convo about Christian Rock remember? Ive never been a super religious person, but somehow talk of religion has continued to draw me even closer to your thread. I think you bring up an interesting point on the..where's the closure from a religious standpoint and Im curious to see what you continue to come up with. For now, I don't think you can go wrong with unconditional love. One last note on this topic, Im assuming your familiar with the radio station KLove- have you tried the 30day challenge yet? Ive been on and off with it, really wanting to try it, but I love country music too much!
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Anyways back to your current sitch..I think its awesome that you and your W seem to be making strides in communication regarding your kids. What do you think you are doing/did differently to actually make this happen? I remember when you posted a little bit ago that you thought you had a breakthrough with your W, but what exactly did you do different to cause this, if anything? I think its important to identify it, and keep it up because it will more than likely apply to communication with your W in general, not just about the kids.
Ok, one last note then I'm done preaching. For some reason I decided to look up the daily devotional from Joyce Meyer (W loves her) and it seems pretty applicable to everyone here. Just thought Id share it on your thread since we;re on the subject of religion and your pastor.
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Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]—to the one only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory (splendor), majesty, might and dominion, and power and authority, before all time and now and forever (unto all the ages of eternity).
- Jude 24–25
Just as a little three-year-old girl in the middle of a swimming pool can feel in over her head, at various points in our lives, all of us feel we're getting "out of our depth" or "in over our heads." But the reality is that without God we're always in over our heads.
There are problems all around in this life: a job is lost, someone dies, there is strife in the family, or a bad report comes from the doctor. When these things happen, our temptation is to panic, because we feel we've lost control. But think about it—just like the child in the pool, the truth is we've never been in control when it comes to life's most crucial elements. We've always been held up by the grace of God, our Father, and that won't change. God is never out of His depth, and therefore we're as safe when we're in life's "deep end" as we were in the kiddie pool.
-Joyce Meyer
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Im done. But I think this emphasizes, we can only do what we can, in the end, its not up to us.
But I think this emphasizes, we can only do what we can, in the end, its not up to us.
This is what its all about. I've struggled mightily on this as you probably have read. My IC has worked with me over the last couple months with this and I think she knows me enough now to give me that departing 'itch' that I think about each week. One time she told me "MCS are you at the point that you've realized that there is nothing more you can do?" I took this as 'defeat' for that week. Well, the next week she said to me something like; "if you can't control the situation and you are a religious person, do you have faith in the outcome?"
Well, that one sealed it for me. This finally letting go manifested itself as anger and frustration (it was suppressed so I wouldn't 'lose control') that it seemed like this all was one sided.
To be honest with you, I think it was more timing than anything. Funny thing my L said when I first talked to her.
"MCS, I don't know why; but the guilt of the WAS lasts almost 5 months to the day. If you are looking at getting something, that's the clock that you are working against."
Well, I think this is partially true. IDK, but I think my W is finally starting to get over some of the guilt in what has happened. This could be that she's over it and is just as committed to going this path, but I see her as back to 'normal' or that she realizes that I'm not using the 'truth' to manipulate her to get what I wanted.
I'm a little on the fence that I had to resort to being so stern and not caring of how she reacted when I walked out of counseling the other week, but good or bad; I needed to do something to try and make this situation better for the little ones. I had relinquished control of trying to repair our M, but knew that I needed to put the kids out in front of what I was doing.
It's weird, in one case I'm happy that W seems to be approaching her normal self, but on the other, I've thought that the 'wall' she built up around herself was masking the confusion she had in our R. If she's back to normal and still wants a D, well that stinks......I guess I need to leave it up to faith....
So MCS, Ive been following your sitch for a while, even more interested since we had that one convo about Christian Rock remember?
So into 3/4 of a bottle of wine left over from the party yesterday...so sorry for the rambling (well, more than usual)
Yep, I didn't forget that conversation. Its funny, because just like you I've always been religious, but just because it was 'there' and felt 'right.' My religion has always ebbed and flowed throughout my life. I guess its one of those things that you need something 'life changing' to get you back in touch. I've always been appreciative of what I've been provided, I (and more importantly 'we') have worked hard but things always seemed to fall into place. Once this all happened and as bad as it seemed, I could tell deep down I was still so very thankful for what I have. It's balanced out the lows over the last few months.
So, I was talking to my Mom yesterday on the phone while she was in the car. Well, Broken Together came on the radio right as I called. I'm starting to believe there's no such thing as coincidences
Anyway, I was just thinking today as I look back, how so very lucky I (still) am. I see so many people in these forums with such monumental challenges to overcome, that its humbling to think that I'm giving so much effort to my own sitch.
I haven't listened to KLove, I'm a Sirus or Spotify guy, I've found that Christian Rock is my go to station right now. about 1 in 5 songs makes me reflect on my life right now. The one today was 'Burn Bright' by Natalie Grant. I looked it up and it was written for her nephew who was battling drug addiction, but the theme seemed so familiar to the situation that my wife is in right now.
I know I have an 'out' from what the Book says; but how I see it there's also a lot in there about unconditional love, and well....that 'out' would be a condition to love. I've never thought too much about that Psalm (I think) about Love and all of the attributes. Patient, kind, obedient, rejoices in the truth... Look at those and you have DB almost to a tee.
Actually, the phrase "unconditional love" does not appear even once in the bible. Both "eternal life" and "salvation" are conditional ~~~ "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) also ""If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).
Loving "unconditionally" isn't practical nor healthy in marriage. Why should either of you be kind or do anything for one another if the other has to love you unconditionally regardless. If you end up divorced, do you intend to keep loving her unconditionally and supporting her financially and emotionally?? Probably not.
I understand what you are thinking and I went there a bit too long ago even going so far as to pray for OM. But I'm more fond of your Corinthians sentence where you say love is .....obedient and rejoices in the truth. Ultimately your love for your wife is conditional on her obedience to God and her vows to you. Also, your love will eventually rejoice in the truth. She might not like much "truth" but when you fight for your wife and prevail she'll remember that you stood for truth and didn't enable her lies.
As far as my W and the Pastor, I'm not sure what he is going to do. Like I said, I was worried for a while that he would approach her. She spent the first couple months after BD shutting out so many people in her life, but she was still going to church and I didn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. Since I detached, I realized that as long as I'm true to myself and to Him, that I can't be worried about how she's going to react to things I do that are right and good. That's one more piece of control that I'm letting go.
He didn't know actually what was really going on before yesterday other than she left suddenly, I didn't know why and we were still separated. He did say that last time he saw her, he said to her that everyone loves her and they are there for her. He also said someone from the Church was going to try to reach out to talk with her.
They should be doing more than "having a talk with her". They should be privately confronting her and telling her to stop. To end her affair immediately and commit to rebuilding her marriage and that if she won't they will need to take this to a larger group of friends and spiritual leaders who will further and again repeat the request that she end her affair and recommit to her marriage. If she refuses again, the entire congregation should be made aware. Most likely your wife will stop going to church before that happens which is better than everyone just "loving her" while she's covered in sin. Recall - true love rejoices in truth.
Lastly, have you seen the movie 'Fireproof?' If not, its pretty good. Not the best DBing (or acting) in there sometimes, but there's one thing that I thought when I read your post. The guy is trying to convince his W of his love for her and the harder he pushes the more she pushes away and he wants to 'give up' on her.
They make the connection that in life, even when we know that we have the right path in front of us, we often push away. However, Jesus doesn't give up on us nor 'force' us to believe in his salvation. We have to make the conscious choice to follow Him. Pastor's have the same struggle. I know he's looking out for her and knows the right path, but he needs to be delicate that she doesn't push herself farther away.
I've seen the movie with my wife well into recovery. Be careful undertaking any such thing while your wife is married UNLESS you can completely detach from having an expectations. Until your wife is in "no contact' with OM and the affair is over...there is NO PROGRESS to be made. You'll have good days and bad days with her but it's not progress until she kicks OM to the curb (or he kicks her to curb which happens more often than the other way). These type movies imply a formula for turning your spouse around by unilaterally taking these specific actions. It may help you in recovery but NOT while she's getting her needs met by another man and it'll just lead to more despair and loss of love in your heart.
Georgia,
Thanks of for joining in here, this topic is something that I've wanted to discuss, but frankly I haven't with any of my friends to the depth I'd like. Like I said, the sitch has gotten me to look at and consider a lot of these things in the bible that I took for granted before.
So for the 'unconditional' part. I guess I never knew it didn't show up in there. However, my feeling is the love that Jesus has over us is unconditional. He can be upset, angry, disappointed. We can make all of the wrong choices in life and he still loves us, he's just waiting for us to find our way. I see my current sitch in my M the same way. I understand how she got where she is, although I don't agree with her decisions. When I confronted on OM, I gave her a huge 'pass' on what had happened and just asked that we could work on our M. When she explained to me the predicament she was in, I even explained exactly what she needed to do to get out of it. However, she wasn't ready and got scared; I think.
Also, when we get married; I feel we do have the commitment to love unconditionally, not to an extreme but to the point that we are joined as one and just as we struggle with our own personal path and make mistakes, sometimes in M there's mistakes. I'm not trying to defend her, but I say to most people when they learn about my sitch. "My W is a good person, making bad decisions right now"
So as far as the role of the congregation. I've read the passage about sin and starting by addressing it in private then going to the church as a whole. I know that you're right she would probably stop going, but we are still indebted to helping folks even though they are not ready to accept it. I guess, if the only people going to church are one's that are not currently carrying sin that they continue to sin over and over again; there wouldn't be too many people there.
For my W, I think I can tell she's struggling with avoiding her morals/faith in church. The kids tell me that mom comes and gets them out of Sunday School so they "eat bread and drink grape juice." Having sat there just myself each week after communion since all this has started, its a pretty powerful time each week. It usually gives me the strength to look forward. I think that having the kids may be to distract her from dealing with what she knows is right. IDK, just an observation and I'm not trying to judge.
Also, since we are on this topic, after I confronted her about OM and I thought we were R; she brought up Potipher's Wife and Joseph. She said that she felt that the same things that caused his Wife to feel neglected by Potipher and drove her to temptation she felt was similar in our M. I caught that this was trying to place the blame on me at the time we were talking and replied back that I didn't think I was a Eunuch but also added that the story was not in the bible to talk about Potipher's Wife; but to show how Christians should address temptation. It was a weird conversation, she had just finished a Bible study on 'Bad girls of the Bible.' It also showed me how much of a struggle that she must have been going through the last year, having an A while going to Bible study.
So, I agree on Fireproof. I knew it was a little 'too' easy given the sitch he was in. Its a good exercise on a healthy or slightly troubled marriage, but not where he was. I also agree with No Progress with OM......Its what I've been waiting out right now. If I believe my W, the actual R was over before BD; I think my W was still in it and kept pursuing and that's one main reason she left. To show him how serious she was. If he was going to leave with GF, I think he would have by now. I think he's trying to figure out how to get out of this too, but I don't know. I can tell you, I may have prayed once or twice for him. He's got a kid and seemed to have more fortitude to stick with his current R because of his family (so my W says.)
My W is a person that is so driven to finish what she starts that she will sacrifice everything to get it. This was one of the main issues with our M, she would get involved in something 'fun' like volunteering and take it to the point that she was so stressed out it would affect every other part of her life. I think her pursuit of OM is/was that way. Its the main thing that she would need to change for me to be okay with reconciling.
So, sitch update.....
Counseling today and the improvement in communications has continued. Our conversation was based on kids logistics, but it was smooth, relaxed and actually enjoyable. I did catch her 'saying' things to me that were similar to what MC has told me to say to her to keep the conversation going....stories about the kids.
So halfway through it was clear that the session was on good terms, I was feeling good and I felt like we were just talking like we used to. My W looked down and was reading something. I was looking at her and I realized right there that my love for her is so alive and well in my heart. It was so tough to hold back. I just wanted to lean forward and hug her. It was that same dorky feeling you get when you would admire someone that didn't realize it. Your mind wanders, your heart rate accelerates and you are trying your hardest not to get caught staring, but you can't look away. Ugh, tough, tough, tough.....
Well that aside; I can say that my short term goals are starting to be met, Improving our communication about the kids. The MC was so excited that we were talking so easily. He's only seen the absolute strife we've had over the last couple months.
No expectations either way, but I'm wondering why this change occurred, like I was talking about the other day. Instead of over analyzing (half of me thinks this is good, half thinks its bad) I'm just going to chock it up to this being the next stepping stone to wherever this journey is going. We need to be co-parents first regardless of anything else.
Talking to a good friend today about sitch and he said something to me that hit me so hard, in a good way to explain some of W's actions over the last 6 months.
I was telling him how now W is acting back to normally, the feelings I have for her came rushing back in, I knew I was still in Love with her. I said to him that it was so much easier when W was acting weird and mean, I could justify in my head that she was someone I didn't want to be with for how she was acting.
He said, "MCS, now you probably know how W felt and why W has tried to see everything bad in you, even is she had to make it up in her head. It helped her feel distant and disconnected from you, easier to deal with 'being done' with you. IDK, but I'm sure it was one reason that she's avoided you, it makes her second guess when your not the 'monster' that she can create when she's not around you. "
Made me think about some of the advice here and how WAS acts to us.
MCS
Have been keeping up with your sitch, lurking in the background. Wrote a long post and decided to scrap it.
I am relieved that you and W are more comfortable talking now. It is an important step.
I wanted to raise an issue with you and discuss a different matter on which I would value your views.
The first issue is that of righteous anger, I am a left footer and in my religion of course everything is confidential, sealed confessional and intensely private. My priest (minister) is merely a conduit to the higher power. This is of course a harder and an easier path. My conscience is between myself and that which is spirit, my married partners path is also with their spirit. it is not for me to judge my H, he and his higher power will hold him to account.
In my faith no one has the right or the authority to interfere between Spouses nor between any person and their higher power. So I am incredulous when I hear elders in other churches managing that relationship. When Jesus said do not sin he was mandating not condemning. This is very unfamiliar to me., the concept of holding to account. It is very different and I find myself unexpectedly resisting the concept.
So to return to righteous anger, we justify our anger by telling ourselves we are 'right' and entitled to our beliefs. Another must have the societal structured response or else be forced back into line. Most of us do what we believe is for the best even if our thinking is unbalanced or crooked. Some one with the background of your W is unlikely to be acting as she is from a narcissistic stance and is most assuredly behaving from unmet need of one sort or another. MCS when W realises that unmet need is not to be met then she will cease running down the cheesless tunnel. Righteous anger will not help MCS, expecting penance atonement and to free of guilt and shame are conflicting goals for W.
In order to move MCS position to R or a new relationship MCS may need to let go of expectation and righteous anger. This is not serving MCS well, change happens MCS and like it or no change will continue. You can accept that W has new goals and desires or you can stay stuck. So how to let go of righteous anger, detatch and observe? This will be much harder if we add the conventional expectation of M, the sense that W should behave in a specific way. V believes that these constraints may be the shackles from which W would like to escape and she can see no disbarment to change. W has her needs. MCS has his. Both want the best for their children. With peace I say this, MCS please let go of righteous anger, let W work her sitch.
The discussion point is about love, it is Vs belief that there can be no unconditional love between adults. Between the individual or the higher power love is unconditional and we channel that love to others. Love for children and dependants is always unconditional but with another adult this is not possible except for rare moments. I also question whether unconditional love for self is either possible or necessary.
The love, I talk of is universal love the type which surrounds us and into which we tap to support ourselves. It is good that you love W and this will shine from every pore.
So what is love? A study of love takes us to analysis categorisation of it. My way of thinking of love is more in line with the structured view that marital love has three components to it. The Stemberg model of adult love, which I find appealing.
http://katherinemarr.com/2013/05/29/on-love/Love in this context is not a physiological (lambic) state, whether one accepts that there are six (Eikmann) or eight (Plutchet) states of emotion, [joy, contempt, sadness, anger, surprise and fear plus anticipation and acceptance). It is not governed by the primary hormones of the body.
In order to explain this mystic state of love we end up with mental or higher mind emotions. What is clear to me is that it is possible to quickly change state with the mental emotions but not immediately with the physiological ones.
http://www.deepermind.com/02clarty.htmAnger of itself may be involuntary but the body can not it appears hold two states at one time. Anger can be managed by changing state, by doing something different in that moment. Righteous part of anger can be released and the anger managed. I believe this is why it is called anger management rather than anger control.
I have concluded that there is no physiological state called love and that limmerant love is a mental compulsion and has its analogous root comparative in addiction and compulsion. This of itself has to diminish as all addictions require increased doses, which in a relationship context becomes unbearable. This appears to me to be the reason that WAS trade down in an EA or PA as the needy A partner will be more tolerant of addictive love. I am open to be persuaded that unconditional love exists in an adult relationship context, but at the moment I am incredulous. I would value your views.
V
V,
Thanks for the post, I'm having a bad PMA at the moment and then I read through this and it got me in a better place. It's some pretty deep stuff that I'm going to need to digest and re-read a couple times to give you an insightful response. However, I'll go off the cuff for an initial reaction.
So, I think a lot of my feeling of unconditional love is right in a marriage is that I'm actually pretty novice in the love department. I think this goes for W too; but in different ways. W and I got together in college. We actually became good friends quickly and were both trying to negotiate other relationships. W pursued me and definitely caught me by surprise and if she didn't we probably would have just been friends. I was the type of guy that had a lot of friends that were girls, but never really dated much. So suffice to say, I've been in love once in my life, and as such; I've never have fallen out of love with anyone. To put it in perspective and since we're all anonymous W and I were each other's only 'partner.'
So, the only love I've experienced up to this point is parental love, family love and of course marital love. So in my eyes, I've held all of these in the same conditional feeling in my heart. It may be also why some of my issues in M were most likely me taking love and M for granted. So, I know a little about your background and you've been in and out of love for a variety of different reasons. So, I think you have much more experience in this and these feelings I'm having have never happened in my life.
So, the other thing is that I'm usually an optimistic, idealistic person. I'm the type of person that takes the impossible tasks at work and just looks at them as 'easy' to overcome (there's the idealistic part) then when the going gets tough, I usually have a good ability to control the chaos and get things working the way they need to. This is part using high expectations for myself, but also I have a great team of folks around me (that we've been together a while) that have similar goals and work ethic. This is a diatribe, but is a little bit about how I thought our M was. I felt that both of us had these same attributes and goals and I saw us as a great 'team.' I'll get back to this point in a little bit.
So also, I believe that very few people actually do things that they think are bad knowningly, but more often than not; are doing what they think is best given the situation. I guess there's never been much 'bad' in my life that I can't explain away as a miscommunication, bad decision, temporary lapse of judgement, etc. So that's where I think this righteous anger comes in for me. In my head, I could understand how W got into the situation she did, but the continual pursuit of this while me, the kids (and even her, dare I say) are suffering is where the anger comes in.
So I'm mixing thoughts, but I'll see if I can get these all together at some point. So for me, I see that what W has done in the last year was at least somewhat understandable from the perspective of her getting in her mid thirties and having some of the 'now what' moments. Compound that with her feelings that I wasn't there emotionally, I see her needs were getting met elsewhere. I see that since neither of us has had 'Love' other than each other; that feeling of the A for her may have caused her to see that as Love and not our M. This coupled with her desires for self-sufficiency (she always has) especially because she felt that she was 'trapped' in our M.
So, the engineer in me explains all of this sitch on her side, but then that leaves MCS. This is where the true person inside me is struggling. For me, my personality is to think idealistically (Wife is lost, but still cares for MCS) and also use my desire to take on challenges that others see as dire (stick with M, even though so much disrespect has happened.) The third piece is the fact that I 'still' feel that M is based on unconditional love, mainly because that's all that I've experienced in my life. Lastly, this whole feeling of not being a 'team' with my W, especially with regards to our children is another 'new' feeling that I'm struggling with. We always seemed to have the same goals throughout our M, but its obvious that over the last 1.5 years our goals were very different and I had no clue. Yet another piece of anger in me.
So as far as getting back to what you are saying. I justify my anger to myself, because I have a good reference (the Bible) that W is doing things that are 'wrong.' Now my anger stays in me for the most part, but does come out as frustration to my W. MCS is not a yell, throw, vindictive person at all. All of my stuff above has been validated in my head because W has been acting so crazy and not herself. I used that to essentially go into denial that W is making these decisions logically and still is going forward. Now that she's acting back to normal and I don't see a swing in her attitude to D, I feel that I'm justified to be angry; but I also wonder if this anger is trying to bubble up to cause myself to fall out of Love. I see my W and get that same feeling of Love, but I'm worried that its just there because its comfortable to Love her.
Lastly, people ask me all the time about forgiveness. I said to the MC that I know I'm not there because even though I tell myself that I forgive her for what she has done, I see that I have expectations on that forgiveness. Additionally, I see that her current actions compound what's happened before, so obviously I haven't forgave her yet.
MCS
I want to revisit the 'righteous anger' point at some stage with you when I have thought through how this impacts. I am convinced this is not serving you well and whilst religious dogma may appear to provide support then only God or our higher power has the position of imposing atonement. Judgement is clearly not the same as anger. Judgement acknowledges each of us is independent and has the freedom to 'sin'. As such we can be sinned against, but each of us is also a sinner. I will try to review my theological position on this, coming from a background of original sin, confession and personal accountability to that which is my higher power, then righteous anger has no place. This is very different in belief and structure. I will muse.
What I do understand is forgiveness, the Lord's Prayer on its own indictates that forgiveness is a virtue. What I am sure of is that forgiveness is very difficult to achieve in a single step. Each of us expects forgiveness, as do you for the attitudes you held before BD and for that prayer and meditation count towards atonement. If we can not forgive how can we expect forgiveness?
Forgiveness is often bigger than a single step and for me requires letting go of resentment. You are probably aware that my H is a compulsive, gambling, alcohol and smoking amoung other human weaknesses. I have my weaknesses too but these are more about impatience and distrust. H weaknesses have taken a toll on him, he is ashamed but bare faced about it. My main goal is to let go of the resentment I feel about his behaviour. I see some of this as wilful and insistent on his own way and some of it as mental illness over which H has little or no control. From this stance I can lose my resentment over his behaviour. If H ever comes out from his fog then my resentment and hurt will not serve us well. It may also hold me still in the wrong place. H has the right not to choose to be in a R with me and I may not like that but it is so. For that decision there is nothing I can do but be V and the best I can for V. H is irrational and makes his choices from an unstable place but H has the right to those choices.
You are right in your assessment I have loved a great deal, my first H died young and I still hold him to my heart. My second H I love too but more like a friend, his path has taken him to a relationship which is ambivalent on his sexuality, a recent development. I love this H very much and continue to stand for my M. I am truly blessed to have been given these great gifts and challenges in my life. I have only ever had four boyfriends and married three of them!
Each love is different and develops in its own way, whatever happens with your W then I am convinced a path can be found to a new type of love. MCS, you will need that path to forgiveness or resentment will be in your soul and spirit. This will make your own path harder and will leak into other aspects of your life. The first stage is to live for today and accept what is as this releases resentment. In this way living for today raises no expectation other than you can manage today.
Let go of the past and expect nothing of tomorrow and have peace today.
V
V,
So, I've been thinking about this over the last couple days and see where I think my anger is coming from. Of course, anger is a manifestation of fear, so I have to look at what I'm fearful about. Like I said, I know that I'm going to be okay on the other side of this with (hopefully) be loved by my W or by someone else. I look through that and while I'm lonely, crave affection and well some other things as well; that piece is not what's making me angry.
What's making me truly angry is that W has made a decision that affects MY relationship as a father to the kids. That's what I'm fearful about, only spending half of the kids lives with them. That's the short of it.
So, this is also where my faith needs to come into play. I guess I'm a lot more opening to leave my marriage to God, but I'm struggling to leave the decisions about the kids to him. I have backed down, I was all out going to fight for custody for them in the beginning, but I see that's not best for them at all. Now that W seems to be more focused on being a Mom, that makes it even easier.
So, I guess I look at this more from an aspect of my family, and not just my marriage.
I know its the past, but I've always wanted to have kids, even in my early 20's. My brother had kids young and said to me once that he wouldn't change it, but he didn't feel he had time for himself and his W when they wanted to be (he's D now.) Well, W wasn't sure about kids when we got married. When she asked me if that was an issue, I said that was fine; lets see what life brings us. Well, we made it through our 20's and then one day she brought home a painting of a little girl. She said it spoke to her. I realized that she was then ready to start trying.
Well, just like everything in my life, I figured it would be easy to get pregnant and it was. Within a few months my W was pregnant, but then we lost the baby at 12 weeks. So, we tried again and lost another at 8 weeks. So, we tried the fertility centers and found out that W needed to take blood thinners (via a shot in the stomach everyday.) So we finally got pregnant with S5 and it seemed like, to me that these trials helped us realize together that this is the next phase of our lives.
So fast forward 4-5 years and I saw that we were establishing quite the good family life from my standpoint. We had our ups and downs, but we definitely were a good team, good parents and loved our kids. However, given what's happened in the last year, I look back and see that my W had issues and didn't express them to me. (Once she said that she was unhappy 8 months prior to BD) It seemed like we balanced each other out, not too much stress, and so on. Well, now that I look back; I see that my W was always trying to get away. She would drop the kids off at daycare and do her own thing (an also hang out with OM.) I tolerated it, because I knew that she needed her time; but it always bothered me a little.
Anyway, I look at what she's done now and just feel so betrayed, not just in marriage, but to our family. I would do ANYTHING to protect my family (W included,) but I'm just so disappointed that there's nothing I can do about our M or keeping our family together through this. Her continuing to prevent/avoid us from doing that is where I just don't feel I'm ready to forgive. It feels like I can forgive the past, but am having trouble forgiving her in the present.
Anyway, I see that's where my anger is coming from. I think if I get to the point that I have acceptance that there's nothing I can do for the kids; I'll get better. Its still a horrible piece of life that I don't even get a chance to fight for them. However, I'm still so very fearful of only spending half their lives with them. I just wish we could at this try to work on our M, especially since everything seems to be fixable.
So just got back from my work trip. It was an odd one. I went on pretty similar trip about a month after BD and it caused me to remember how I felt back then. Now, I see I'm much more emotionally stable, but for some reason it made me feel lonelier not being at home. This is all centered around this desire that is building in me for affection and intimacy. Not sure really what to do about this, but as I said over on Mozza's thread I see my desires to be with 'anyone' is starting to take over. Most of the folks I was traveling with were in the military at one point and I joked how could they go on deployment for 6 months. The one guy replied back, I was single and that's what Thailand was for...oye ve
Anyway, this was the first week that W had the kids for a full week of school. Remember, she moved about 25 minutes away. So, my daycare took me aside and said that they were concerned with how my wife seemed to be around the kids. Nothing horrible, but said that she just constantly seemed frazzled and on edge. At one point, they said that W brought D4 into daycare and wanted her to use the potty. D4 said she didn't need to and W put her on the toilet and held her legs down to it and was yelling at her to go. Daycare said how W was acting just made her feel uncomfortable and she almost said something to W. IDK, I do admit, they know most all of the sitch (they found out about OM first through some of W's lies to other people) so they've been pretty upset, especially what it means for the kids. However, she said to me that she feels W is just overwhelmed and not 'there.'
So, part of me just wants to talk to W about it, but I know I can't. I actually was thinking last week that this may be what happens this week as this is the first full week with the kids. I remember my first week and it was stressful, but I don't know if I should be worried or not. She's with the kids next week too, so I guess we'll see.
I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties of D4 during her first full week with WAW. It must be hard to hear as a father, especially knowing that qualified people at the daycare were concerned. The anecdote about the potty is troubling as it sounds like the worst way to get a child to relax and just go. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but my WAW also has a fixation on kids' toilet use. She wants them to go all the time.
I agree that the actions of your WAW sound like those of someone who's overwhelmed. Parenting is hardest when you don't want to do it. Unless your daughter is at risk, it is just poor parenting. I would expect the situation to be temporary as your WAW finds her footing. For instance, things seem to have improved a little with my WAW or at least she doesn't call me anymore because she's overwhelmed. The kids mention not doing much and being quite happy to see me, but they don't complain about their treatment with her.
Before I throw the first stone at my WAW, I try to keep in mind that I'm not a perfect father either. Sometimes, I get them to bed too late for a story, something that's very important to my WAW. The list is long, like for most parents. It would be similar if you were still together.
Your WAW will have to find her bearings and become the mother she used to be. Hopefully, it's just an adapt period. I'm still nervous in the 24 hours before I get the kids back because of the coming level of responsibility and work, after a week of taking care only of myself. So even stable people can find it difficult.
Thanks for sharing your feelings about companionship with honesty. I appreciate it and will respond to your post on my thread.
Thanks, Mozza.
Yeah, the companionship thing is the next thing for me to tackle. I'm just not sure how. I've been pretty adamant that I'm still married and therefore don't want to date, but I'm not sure how to fill that void. I don't know sitch with W and OM, but I guess they still talk. So even if it's not physical, that emotional connection is probably still there for her. I don't see her reaching out to me until that would be finished. I'm just confused on what the next step is for me. I guess I can't see myself going for years feeling like this, if W doesn't come around or actually process a D. I guess it's one day at a time.
About my D4, probably a few months ago I would have said something to my wife about it, but i know better now.
I guess my biggest thing is that W told me she would be a better mom for the kids w/o me because she will have 'emotional stability.' Of course it's spew for the real reason she left. However her parenting seems like it's quite the opposite right now. But that's something she needs to work through as you said.
I prefer to see this as a little bit of a silver lining because up until this point, wife only had the kids weekends. The constant day in day out grind of balancing work and kids school has been on me. Don't get me wrong, as you all know I wanted that for what I felt was stability for the kids. Also, I've had 6 months to settle into that role, but it's quite the 180 for me from before BD. We used to take turns dropping off or picking up, but I usually worked more hours than her. This change is one that I couldn't show to her, but now she probably has experienced that difference in lifestyle first hand. I get into work late and have to leave early. Usually work from home after kids go to bed just to keep up. My bosses have been awesome through the whole thing, but it is stressful and taxing on everyone.
MCS
You appear to have identified that your anger stems from loss of your family and that is directed at W. It is not righteous anger as an overall result of W behaviour within the religious context. W is defying religious conventions of leaving and the A is the most important part of it, and the loss of religious connection?
Have I understood correctly?
I have read and reread your posts and I am glad that IC is helpful. I would like to see you more at peace with this as I think your anger may cause you to react sooner than you should and possibly with more force.
It is V belief that if your precious children are in any way at risk that MCS must take action. The incident with W at the nursery is at minimum upsetting. MCS, this seems to me to be worth a closer look and certainly a review at the nursery. Mza is right on this and as a fellow parent will give good guidance.
It can be the case that W is projecting to you her own feelings in her sitch, her sense that she is at sea and her parenting skills are less than maximum. I doubt though there is such a thing as a perfect parent!
It is clear W is coping poorly and she is paying a heavy price for her actions, her EA/PA with OM is probably not the happy ending W was seeking. Reality is kicking in especially with parenting taking its toll.
In addition MCS has changed, his more child centred focus and more involvement with his children means that what was a valid disgruntlement by W is no longer so. It is harder to spew on you were x, y, z pre BD. As the valid response is, this now and different. The spew is then you will go back to that! The response only time will tell, but MCS says it is intention to put that behind him.
W is lost MCS without her happy ending and she will need to turn it around for herself. If W can not cope then you as the more stable parent may need to step up to the plate.
V
V,
As far as my anger, I think it's a combination of both, but much deeper in loss of the family. I guess the reason for this is that I'm almost willing to look past the A as multiple bad decisions. I guess I'm still in denial,with that, but I can say I only rarely feel the deep hurt of betrayal. The only reason for that is that I feel I need to suppress that for trying to preserve my family. I guess with her and her religion, it's almost feels like another farce that is going on right now. I know I need to get to the point of forgiveness regardless of the outcome, but I feel that the devastation that this is doing to my family is preventing that. S5 was praying tonight that we could get back togehpther and said that since daddy still likes mommy, he wants mommy to like daddy back. These things tear me up inside.
As far as parenting, I need to walk a careful line. I think In the beginning, I definitely was too critical on some of the parenting, which definitely contributed to bolstering how she felt before she left. I look at these things and daycare sees the same thing as me, a huge change in her parenting style, but I haven't seen anything that crosses the line. It's just another contribution to the weird behavior that she has portrayed.
One of my friends was talking about his ex-wife who, was a pretty bad alcoholic. He said that he tried everything at first to try and protect the kids from her, but the more he tried to keep them sheltered, the more she pushed. He said once he backed off, she lost interest and was overwhelmed with them and ended up backing off in custody anyway. Interestingly, he said that when he went to get the courts to intervene, they leaned so much to W's position that he finally had to get a protective order for his daughter and they still wouldn't give him custody.
That is way more extreme from my W sitch and I realize that as long as she wants to be part of their lives, the kids deserve to be with there mom. It's tough to come to grips with that, but it's best for them.
With my W, I hate to say that I anticipated this, in that her personality is that when she wants something; she puts every waking moment into getting it. I think this translates to the kids, she's preoccupied with trying to figuring out her life right now and unfortunately it's causing her a lot of stress for the kids. The month or so before BD (after the hotel room for OM that she said he didn't go) she was acting the same way, very short temper and lack of patience for the kids. I thought it was stress at work and was the main reason that I asked her why she seemed so distant for the last month which led to the BD.
Bible verse of today on my phone:
Galatians 6:9
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up"
One more day....than another....
So, I'm in a weird place of emotions right now. It's nowhere near what is what a couple months ago, but I find that my feelings about the sitch vary widely in a course of a few hours. I go from wanting my W, to being mad at her, to being depressed that I can't save my family, to being excited about looking at the future with someone else. I feel like a high school girl. I talk to IC today and caught myself saying that I'm numb with the betrayal that W has done. I told her about how my anger is centered around the dissolution of our family. I guess maybe I've supressed it or am still in denial. This had been going on for so long, I look back and don't know what to believe. It also bothers me that she was ML with me and not fully into it (she's said she's never ML with OM and I believe her that it was probably that way before she left, IDK) I'm not sure why someone would do that in a marriage. Another piece of this horrible lie she has had for >1 year. I understand how she resented me being content In the M when she was struggling with all of these other things.
Dropped kids off at Target today at her suggestion. Weird that she wanted it there, I thought she may need to go shopping, but when I got there she was inside. I texted her that I was there and she asked in the parking lot? I said yeah and she came out right away with nothing in her hand. I thought she was going to take the kids shopping, but then just put them in the car. It was just weird, I wonder if she wanted me to come in with the kids and spent a little bit of time together? Probably reading into it, it was just an odd arrangement.
Anyway for me, I had a pretty tough weekend with the kids. I don't know if it was the schedule change, but they were both out of sorts. S5 see,s to be having some anger issues. He had some in the beginning of this, it settled down for a few months, but it seems to be brewing again.
IDK, it almost seems like I'm starting to be okay with the situation between W and I, but the family sitch is what I'm holding onto. I wonder if this is where she was over the last year before BD, trying to hold onto it for the family, but felt she was sacrificing her happiness for it. I just wish that she would have said ANYTHING to me about our M or her not being happy (it was just 1 time in passing and that was it)
Full mind reading post here.....
So, I went back and read my post. When I said about W not ML to OM prior to BD, i was a little off on how I feel. I think for most of the A 8-10 months, it was just casual stuff. However, I think W reserved that hotel room for them to go to the next step. She said that he never came up there, but I do think that afterwards something happened. This is where I think the downward spiral of guilt and resolution to be with OM took hold in W. The month before BD things where definitely different in how she acted. Our ML it was really one sided. In fact, that's why I confronted her right before BD, I didn't want to be intimate when she clearly wasn't into it. It was the second or third time that month and it was more than just a 'headache' type thing.
So, the reason I say this is that I think that this is the last part that W is holding out telling me. She's denied it many times, but I did see that text message about them getting together. At one point, she said something strange when I confronted about OM like "I've never 'been' with anyone else when we were married." Now, the difference is we've only been together with each other in our lives. I wonder if at some point she felt 'she' wasn't married to me anymore and then that was what made her okay with it. Then when we were taking about this text message, That was what I went off on with respect to what she did with the kids, but I wonder if that's the last piece of info that she feels that I wouldn't be okay with. My reaction was enough for her to shut back down.
Knowing my wife, she would internalize this and then move on instead of confronting it within herself. Also, I think she would need to tell me in order for her to start to look at us getting back together, but she wouldn't because she would feel it would hurt me too much. Dealing with these emotions within herself and not running from them is part of what she needs to change, but I'm wondering how I can work the sitch to help her trust me on it. It really doesn't make a difference given all of the other stuff that has happened, but I feel that it may be the linchpin holding us back.
MCS
How, when, where, why, if, perhaps.
Your W is a wayward, even if you knew the answers it will not help you now. There will come a time when you can seek the answers you need.
W needs to do nothing! MCS there goes that control again.
Vanilla thinks that the linchpin holding you back is control again.
Stop asking the same questions, if you keep doing the same things you will keep getting the same results. W denies it many times, MCS, stop this loop, this obsession with OM.
Let W deal with W and MCS deal with MCS.
I say this kindly as I want MCS to be working on MCS and building a life for his children. As the stable parent MCS this is an additional aspect for you to handle. Be detached for your children, to increase the relaxation in your home.
Vanilla
Vanilla,
Thanks, its what I needed. I guess I'm getting antsy that we just passed our 6 month mark, she seems to be out of her 'fog' somewhat and our communication is slightly better. I'm just writing some of these things because I see a change in her recently and I feel like 'now' is where I can start DBing because the NC that she implemented seems to be lightening up.
Another piece is that I think I'm regressing because I'm holding back moving on. I can feel that I'm moving over to the point that my patience now is to try and keep my family together and not necessarily all for me and her. I guess that's not a bad thing.
My problem is that I don't know what to do right now. I guess its just waiting, but I'm not sure. Our MC got canceled today for snow, so I guess my time this week to interact is gone. Part of me wants to test the waters, by asking her if she wants to grab lunch or something, but I'm not sure if that would make her back-pedal. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what I can do to help along her regaining her trust in me, as I see that is the first step we need to make. Interestingly enough, regaining our trust in each other is what she said she thought we needed back in Oct. when we talked that weekend. That's why we made the MC appointment. However, when we got there; she said it was just about custody and logistics. Maybe she was right, but not ready to start working on our trust up until recently.
MCS, now is not the time you start DBing. You've been DBing all along. If you did a shitty job DB'ing, your W would not be lightening up her NC.
What I see now, is that you are trying to rush things. Your MC got canceled, so you are now trying to invite her to lunch. Bro, thats a pretty big leap, but only you know if thats ok for you to do. If you do, be prepared if the answer is no. Have you ever thought that your so anxious to see her but MC got cancelled, but maybe she feels the same way? So waiting an extra week is not necessarily a bad thing? Just makes the tension build up more? Maybe get some new cologne for next week?
Slow it down. It took you....how many months? 6 months to get to this point? don't rush it and keep letting things naturally progress (I need to take my own advice). IMO, I wouldn't invite her to lunch. Not yet. But thats your call.
What is going on with W and OM? Ive read in a few posts that she seems to have let off of that? But you're not sure if they still are in contact?
MCS
Let us examine the phrase "holding my family together".
I will initially sound a little negative and this is a phrase I hear a great deal in Gamanon when a partner is actively gambling and is destroying their family life for their addiction. It looks like holding the family together or putting it back together is the best option and actually it isn't possible and neither may it be desirable whilst the gambler is gambling.
MCS your family is a different type of family now, with H and W being parents separately. MCS has no control over W and thus over this aspect of family. This could be temporary or unhappily permanent but it is as it is today.
It probably easy for you to see that with the case of the gambler. Your W is silimilar she is addicted and has gone. This addiction of W will have to run its course and there is no longer way other Than letting it do so. Just as the non gambler has to be the stable influence and allow the gambler to fall and to 'hit bottom' , then MCS: W will need to do the same.
Does this mean MCS has to cover for W? absolutely not. Does MCS want to put together his family with M and D at the core? Of course he does, but that may mean for the time being at minimum, or forever possibly separately parenting.
The A could last as long as 3 years in its beginning phases before reality strikes in phase 2 for A. Only MCS knows what he will do and he must do what is best for his children. From how you describe your children and their unhappiness then MCS another way of acceptance to reduce the unhappy environment must be found.
MCS can choose to create a different family environment for his children and can V suggest that at this time that would MCS be the dad 'holding the family together'? MCS this is something RD500 does well for his children and Jim is loving his family life with his much younger children. Can mums and dads do this on their own? absolutely yes.
MCS the well being of your family unit and your children is your action. Please choose the course of action that MCS by being the best MCS that he can be is the father lighting the way to family life for his children and himself. Even though this may not be the family life he prefers. The family is not broken to be held together like a piece of fired pottery, it is more like plasticine and hence the family has changed and moulded to a different shape, a different piece which is of itself beautiful.
MCS, you have no control over W in this. Go be the best MCS and create the best family you can for MCS and for your children. Your children will see this and tread their own path.
My prayers are with MCS and for the strength to make today the best family day for MCS and his children. Held in love and not merely held together.
Vanilla
Thanks, I guess your right; it has gotten better and not worse. Its been going against what I would have done if I hadn't found DR and LRT; so I guess I have been doing it. I guess for me, it feels like I'm at the point that I can start to formulate a DB plan. Maybe a call to a coach is in my future, IDK.
What I see now, is that you are trying to rush things..........
Slow it down. It took you....how many months? 6 months to get to this point? don't rush it and keep letting things naturally progress (I need to take my own advice)
Yep, you are exactly right. It was one of those things that the last day or so, I've felt that I needed to do something, but I know better but wasn't admitting it to myself. So, I came and posted and you and V told me what I needed to hear. Like I said, I don't believe in coincidences anymore; there's stuff deeper than that. After I posted, I called my mom....know what she said even prior to mentioning I was getting antsy to do something...."MCS, be patient; everything has fallen into place w/o you needing to interfere. Trust your faith." So all of you folks are saying the same thing, at the same time. Its uncanny how in sync everyone is in all the different aspects of my life. Thanks a lot.
What is going on with W and OM? Ive read in a few posts that she seems to have let off of that? But you're not sure if they still are in contact?
No Clue.....She hasn't said anything to me at all. The kids don't mention him being over there. However, I think if things were progressing, now that she has a house that he would be over there more (or move in.) Also, I'm at the point that I'm detached enough that I really don't care with the exception of knowing that I can't really expect anything about working on our R with him in the picture. They work in the same building, so there's little chance of absolutely NC with him which will make this hard. I look back and I really do think my biggest issue was exposure of him to our kids. At a minimum (if their A is still going) it seems like she has honored this request; so I'm happy about that.
MCS
The family is not broken to be held together like a piece of fired pottery, it is more like plasticine and hence the family has changed and moulded to a different shape, a different piece which is of itself beautiful.
Vanilla
V,
This one quote here is so beautiful and thought provoking. I look at what my relationship with my kids has become and I'm really proud of that. That is one of the blessings in this whole mess. We have a blast at home and do a lot of things that we wouldn't have done in our hum-dum life before BD. Here's a list of things that we have done just over the last couple weeks.
- Movie night in the 'man cave' in the basement.
- Went bowling for the first time (D4 just said this weekend she wanted to go back)
- Cosmic (black-light) inflatable bounce house
- Went swimming in the pool at the college (it was 10F degrees outside)
- Kids night at their favorite restaurant
- Special boxes from Amazon (they always say all the boxes that come are for me)
- Some cool Valentines Day gifts and candy for them
V, I see that this has really re-adjusted my priorities and the kids are first in my life. I used to work a little later in the evening than W, but now I see that I pick them up from school that the time that they first get home from school is nice for them because they just like to be at their house and chill out.
I also see that other people see me as the stability. The after-school care just the other day said how joyful, personable and amazing our kids are and I caught myself tearing up and actually knowing exactly what they were talking about.
After my S5 decided to carve into our friends' table (part of the issues this weekend) I saw that I didn't loose my patience and had established the balance of discipline and empathy for him. After I got him to calm down, I went out into the garage by myself at my friends house and just cried for a few minutes. It was so tough understanding what they were going through, but still needed to be a parent at the same time. Later, as I was leaving one of my friends gave me a hug and said to me that it must be tough for me with everything going on. She then said to me "MCS, you're a really good Dad and you love them a lot" Well, then I teared up again.
My kids have always been so important to me, but since BD, they have become the center of everything I do. Even at their young age, they are the rock that I lean on by making sure that I'm doing everything possible for them. It still hurts when I see them hurting, but I can understand that I need to face that I can't do anything about W's decisions and how it affects them, but I need to do the best things I can do for them right now.
MCS
I enjoyed with great delight hearing about MCS and his children. As you focus on your R with your children so your spirits will lift and know the purpose of your higher power.
The more this is to the fore in your life as your life force then the more energy you will have for MCS. This is joy every day with each child, hugs, love and pure pleasure in the R which is enfolding in your life.
V
So quick rant....cause I need to get it out.
Picked up kids today and found out W took S5 to the doctors at some point this week, she dropped his medicine off at D4's daycare. Some heads up would have been nice
Found out from D4 that wife is going on vacation this weekend (W did say she was out of town) with SIL. As you know SIL has her head on straight, and wasn't too happy with W before. This is a good thing and can only be a positive influence.
Picked up D4 today and she was wearing S5's boots, just weird....why?!?
S5's after school provider mentioned to me today that W was picking S5 up last week and D4 was in sandals and a skirt in 20 degree weather. She kind of nicely asked what was up with that? I replied that I think that W doesn't interfere with what she wears and I didn't know why.
So this is about the 6th different person and probably the 15th separate incident, many who don't even know the sitch questioning how the kids are dressed. I don't know how to respond to these, I've chose not to even ask W about it anymore, it's just annoying
So, no trace of OM while the kids are there. That's a good thing, however D4 said that they bumped into OM's GF and kid at the store, so I'm guessing she still doesn't know. Maybe this thing has died down or maybe W knows that she can't expose the kids w/o them telling me. I don't know and frankly don't care other than trying to figure out if W's recent communication changes are a result of the A finally being over. I guess it's the best I can hope for right now, it doesn't seem to be progressing at all.
S5's after school provider mentioned to me today that W was picking S5 up last week and D4 was in sandals and a skirt in 20 degree weather. She kind of nicely asked what was up with that?
I don't know about the others, but this one I would take seriously. My D was headstrong too about her wardrobe choices but at 4 there is a lot you can do to make sure the options are weather appropriate. It would be worthwhile to talk to your W about it. School, daycare, and healthcare providers are mandatory reporters. If they feel that your D is being cared for in a way that could endanger her (reasonable thinking if she's wearing sandals in 20 degree weather), they will report and that is not fun to deal with (speaking from secondhand experience).
I'm sorry I haven't followed your sitch lately. But I'm wondering, based on this ONE post, what you've focused on in yourself?
Maybell,
Thanks for checking in. Here's a listing of things I'm working on
Stop being a 'fixer' for sitchs outside my control
Figure out how to be less judgmental with other people's decisions
Work on my anger w W putting our family in this sitch
Be more empathetic to other's decisions
More intimacy and emotion in relationships (I got complacent in our M)
As far as your suggestions, I'm not sure that it's to that level. Up until this point, the criticism has been people that know W and see the change in her parenting style. This is the first one that really didn't know W. I didn't get that she was overly concerned when she asked me, but D4 was dressed strangely today since W had kids this morning and I picked them up after school. She said something half laughing saying about her fashion style and how last week she thought she must have been cold because she was in a skirt and open toed shoes.
D4 gets dressed herself and often comes down in a sun dress when I have her, I usually just say that she needs to get a long shirt/ pants on than she'll go get changed without much issue. I think W is just not asking her to get changed.
Anyway, due to things I'm working on and the monumental struggles in communication about anything including the kids that we have had up until recently (she was pretty much NC for 5 months) I'm not going to say anything, but I understand the concern.
MCS
I love the list. I would like a little more specifics though.
How, when and how will you know you are on the correct path.
V
MCS, Ive read several times, actually almost too many to count, about your W and her lack of attention? to D4's wardrobe...Im still confused by it as far as why its happening...I don't have kids myself but can understand from yours and Belle's post that kids dress however they want, and unless someone says something they just keep doing it...
What is W's issue with this? Is there a reason she's not saying anything? I know you're saying its her "change in parenting style" but its just weird to me?
You're list looks great MCS. One question for you on your last note. "More intimacy and emotion in relationships (I got complacent in our M)"
How are you planning on doing this since your W is not at this level right now? Im assuming this is not with other women at this time?
TLEE86,
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Not sure if I said it here, but many times D4 will come downstairs in just a sundress and will put on crocs or something. They just don't have any concept of the weather outside. The thing in this sitch is that as a parent, we would correct that before we would leave the house. Its just a simple "D4, its too cold out to wear that dress, can you go get something else on"
So, W not correcting it is where this is just weird and not like her at all. I think that she is not 'parenting' from the aspect of providing guidance (and discipline) to the kids. I have no idea why its this way as its different than how she was before. Not that its wrong, but it leaves me wondering why? I think it could be a number of things: distractions of OM, depression, over-compensating for feeling she's put the kids in this sitch, not caring anymore, counter-acting how 'we' parented, etc.
Its one of those things that I would just ask her about when we were together if there was anything, but I see that things like this were used during BD about how I 'disapproved' of how she did things.
_________
As far as intimacy and emotion, I have no clue on how to show this to W. Its part of what I was going back and forth a couple days ago. Do I pursue to the point of showing some of these 'acts of kindness?' That's where I had the thought of maybe inviting her to lunch. Although the more I think about it, its too early in this different phase of communication to do it. I'm starting to see that more of the NC is starting to creep back in. Not sure why, but since I don't have a lot of trust in her right now; I think it may be that she's doing what the MC says to do at the sessions, but not sincerely doing it because I don't see the follow-through afterwards. It's just like a dang High School relationship. It's all mind-reading and she'll need to make a couple more moves until I feel comfortable with this recent change.
So I'm not sure how to show it, but I see that intimacy is the one area that from a completely objective point of view that I was lacking in our M mainly because I became comfortable. Life caught up with us and the intimacy went away. Interestingly enough our Anniversary last year, W wanted to 'mess around' in the car in a parking lot or something after our dinner. We hadn't done that type of stuff since before we were married, I said I wasn't comfortable (like you, citations are not taken too fondly in our jobs) and she was upset about it. It was just weird, but I look back and I think that was her trying to 'mix' it up in our marriage. OM R had just gotten started and I think she was trying to get that same feeling from me that she was getting from him. I actually found out during my work to see if it was an A after BD that she did get cited for messing around with OM in a park at night.
So, I can see that she was looking for more intimacy. The other areas I listed, while are things that I need to change would not affect a healthy relationship; those attributes were all small in nature and are really refinements to my personality; not substantial changes.
MCS
Intimacy can be about many things not just R. It is talking intently about any subject that is interesting to both of you or just to W. It could be about cabbages, if you ran an allotment. The health of a friend, the purchase of a car, going to the gym, your children and W's new shoes. Being like a friend, making I statements and liking and enjoying. Laughing and kindness.
Above all kindness at the day's issues and please do not solve my problems. OK, my boss is on my back, the children are playing up and I stubbed my toe, so I am feeling low, just say that sounds awful and listen. put away the told yo so and here is how to fix it.
It is about your eye contact, involvement and interest. Listening like a lover, validating and empathising. Asking open questions. Showing real interest.
As for emotion, as long as you can identify it then you can say it. I feel happy today because..... Our D danced like a little fairy in the school show. I am sad because my friend is ill.
Gently, slowly and with kindness.
V
V,
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I look back at that and there's a lot to learn and it involves both of us. As you say it there, I'm very much that way with most people and friends. I actually felt that way from me sharing things with her. The issue was that she wasn't sharing things with me and I didn't pick up on it. The slow fade into her A also caused her to shutdown over the last year. We did share stuff about us (stresses, joys, etc.) but the deeper stuff all dried up on her side as my wife is a really good person and the struggle with OM and M I'm sure was wearing on her. Then the intimacy moved to him, because he was the only one that actually knew about the A itself. This lack of intimacy was not just with me, but all of her friends and family. It must have been a lonely year for her.
_________________________
Also, I was talking to someone today and realized I could summarize one of the main reasons I'm still in this and haven't 'moved on' even though she says she wants me to (this is independent of the other family, religious, still loving her, etc.)
I fear that my W is doing this based on what she has done over the last year in the marriage rather than doing this based on what she wants to become as a individual. Essentially, I fear that she feels she can't turn back and salvage our marriage.
I know I shouldn't be thinking for her, but its really how I feel and things that I think I see coming from her. She's a really fantastic and morally aligned person and she sets very high standards for herself and has always struggled to live up to them within herself (she projected this uncertainty onto me during BD.)
Additionally, it never was too bad but in the past, when she was disappointed in herself she has told me that she needs to do things to 'feel' the pain of her actions, that she feels numb if not. This was a long time ago we had that conversation and the timeframe was from before we met. Over the years, I thought that these tendencies had went away. However, she did tell me she feels similar now to how she felt in that time in her life.
IDK, too much mind-reading, but I just needed to get it out so I'm not thinking about it for the next day or so.
Essentially, I fear that she feels she can't turn back and salvage our marriage.
This is a fear that is very common on these boards. LBS think that their WAS is too stubborn, too proud, too hurt, too insecure to give another chance to the M. I don't know what to make of it exactly because I also fear it, but I think it's a fear that's overplayed. Our WAS have all made a radical decision that overturned strongly held beliefs and very public commitments. How embarrassing to turn away from your wedding vows and your kid. Yet, they've done it. I doubt that coming back would be a greater shame or effort. If that's where their heart is, they'll do it.
Mozza, V,
Yeah, I guess you're right. I'm sure 'impossible to go back' plays into it, but the decision that they did make overshadows the other side. I guess that's where the keep the road home smooth comes in.
For my sitch, I think it was a combination of things that made her leave, but I look at it and I think I was near the bottom for the least of the reasons. Basically, I think she fell in L with OM, felt guilty about it around me, made the next step in the A and thought she could get out of our M and create a serious relationship with him, and no one would ever know what happened during our Marriage. Oh well, Its all in the past now anyway.
So in more DB fashion, I figured I'd go back and add some to the things I'm working on myself. It's actually quite simple...
Stop being a 'fixer' for sitchs outside my control: I need to fight the urge to offer solutions and do a better job listening and validating. I've had it engrained in me that if there's a problem that I should try and fix it. This works for most everything but people. So in essence STFU
Figure out how to be less judgmental with other people's decisions: Here's another on that I try to logically rationalize people's decisions and do a SWOT analysis on other's like I tend to do on my decisions. Geeky, yes....Non-emotional, yes.....good for my sitch, no. So for this it boils down to when in doubt STFU
Work on my anger w W putting our family in this sitch: This one is getting better by detaching. I still think I'm in a bunch of denial into what she actually has done to our marriage and deceived me for well over a year, plus other times in our marriage. I've never been an angry person, but I think the kids are holding me in check, in that, I know that being outwardly angry does nothing to help the sitch. Basically, STFU
Be more empathetic to other's decisions: This one is getting better also. As much as I hate to admit it, I can see where my wife got mixed up in this whole thing. As small as the issues seemed prior to this all starting about 2 years ago, I saw that she was having a rough time. I couldn't understand and tried to help her as much as I could (change work hours, do more around the house, etc.) However, I see that this was the time that she first started to shut down. When she would say something (she said this a total of 3 times in 1 year) like "MCS, our lives are so difficult" I would respond on why they weren't I should have just validated. Again STFU
More intimacy and emotion in relationships (I got complacent in our M): This is the main area that I see that I 'knowingly' contributed to our troubles. I was in a time in my life, that while content, was still trying to balance kids, house, work, etc. the last area there was our M. We did talk about this a few times and we seemed to resolve it (went to Hawaii for our 10 year Anniversary,) I didn't put enough effort in this on a daily basis. Little things like flowers, gifts, back-rubs, etc. basically went away.
Anyway, as I see most of these are tweaks to my personality. In the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm pretty comfortable with who I was/who I am and also had a high self-esteem before BD and after. However, I see as a H; I should have realized that W was not comfortable and her self-esteem was diminishing and I should have been there to help her get through it. The little that she expressed to me; I trivialized in my mind since it seemed to me like everything was going okay in our lives. Since these were far and few between, I attributed them to 'bad day' moods from her and not necessarily a fundamental issue that she was dealing with.
MCS
WAS rarely fall in love with OP, they fall in fatuation with them. They trade to a dream that can never be reality. A dream from which they must awake.
The greatest gift you can give is that of yourself, the care, the attention and the listening. The connection. These are the little things that matter, you can still give these things on a daily basis to your children.
V
So journaling...
I had a huge setback in my PMA last night. I talked to my mom and felt better, but it was just to the point that I don't know what direction to take all of this. I'm trying to follow whatever this plan may be, but I'm getting to the point that I don't even see the next step in front of me. I'm just looking for some guidance as I see that I'm detaching to the point that I'm uncomfortable that this can work out. I'm happy with myself, I'm being a good dad for my kids, my productivity at work is back. I'm actually comfortable with myself save my M. That's where my issue is, is this the precipice of 'moving on?' IDK, but I see my fellow DBers that have joined around the same time are seeing things this way also.
So better today, but feel even further detached. Went to MC (mediation) and I see that W is trying to push it back into her comfort zone of really talking about nothing. As you know, we had productive sessions the last two times, but there has been little to no follow-through on her part to show any actions that our communication is getting better.
So, I went into it very different than before because of detachment. For the first time, I didn't need to try and act detached, I already was.
This led to a really weird session. First, W looks like she's struggling. She's always been really put together, but you can see this is wearing on her. She just didn't look attractive at all, wow that's tough that just came out of my head. Anyway, its almost like when you see someone you don't know and can just see they're struggling by their face. Anyway, to summarize the long post. I don't see any progress in WAW in facing some of the decisions she's made. While she's calmer and more reasonable, I see that she's still in denial that the A had any part of the separation. I could tell it became uncomfortable for her when she couldn't get me emotionally charged about the sitch. I see that she has totally withdrawn from dealing with any of this in front of me (or herself.) It's really sad, but I can't change it. However, MCS is no longer going to shoulder her burden of her decisions when she tries to project her issues back on me. The emotional stability that I have that she has used over the years is gone in me now. I understand my role in what has happened and I no longer will accept her 'baiting' to take responsibility for her decisions while together
I saw that I was starting to talk about things that I struggled with before emotionally, but now I was stating them just as something we need to address. We talked about the kids and she asked if there were any issues, I said not really other than what they've been dealing with. She looked at me confused and asked "what do you mean?" I said, "our sitch. It's been 6 months and they are still trying to figure this out." I asked if she had any suggestions on what we should tell them. At that point, her whole demeanor changed, no eye contact, head down, etc. She said she didn't know what to say other than we are living apart. I asked her if they have asked why we can't be a family again? She then withdrew even more and didn't answer. She looked up and said, I guess we just tell them that Mom left. I said they know that and but ask me why we can't work it out? She kept looking away and said 'I don't know' I probably went a little too far and said. I don't know either, but I don't want to tell them that Dad still wants to work on it. I just don't know what to say. I think I see that she's finally starting to realize the affect on the kids.
So, then we talked about our communication. MC said that we've been doing much better and asked if we agree. W would not answer the question. He asked again and she said something like how she doesn't feel 'safe' with me. At that point, I went to say something and paused. She looked and asked what I was going to say. I paused a little longer and then said.
"W this is up to you to do if you'd like and I know its not right time now, but at some point if you're comfortable could you tell me what I did to make you feel that way" Well, then her demeanor collapsed even more. She wouldn't look at me or MC and he asked what was wrong. She said that she has felt she told me why and doesn't want to again. Then a little ray of light she said "However, I know that's how you feel and you're allowed to feel that way."I said "Okay, that's fair enough, but I want to grow out of this as I move on and don't want to make the same mistakes again."
TLEE, This one's for you. As I left MC today, I was in my car and had the radio on to the Christian rock channel and then called my mom and started talking over bluetooth so the radio cut out. Talked for about 15 minutes and was talking about W and our sitch and hit a dead-zone so the phone cut off. Truck kicked back to the radio and the radio was playing Broken Together. AAHHHH, probably the first time I've ever heard it on that station. The folks upstairs sure have some humor........
So, I left a few things out above.
First, I think I've picked up on the game she's playing and I talked to the MC about it. Talking with him, I think he sees it too. Basically, I see that she knows exactly how to get me emotionally charged. When she wants to, she says something to me about how this is my fault, kids are fine, whatever and that's my 'trigger.' Then I seem visibly upset/angry and she says that's why she doesn't feel comfortable with me. It's never been anything even bad in a normal marriage, but I would take it like I crossed the line and started blaming myself.
So MC and I talked about it and he kind of agreed that the sessions were unstructured in our objectives long term. I said that I wanted to address that.
Also, I see that I talk about things matter of fact and confident. I'm not showing any vulnerability to her yo-yoing my emotions as like I said I see that pattern she is using. I had a friendly attitude and even when the discussions got difficult, my appearance didn't change at all. She was sitting closed shoulders and stiff even when talking and I was relaxed and kept eye contact. I actually caught myself whistling as I walked in the room.
So, I guess I've let go enough that I see the changes in W that need to happen and I can't influence them. So now's the time to take care of MCS, S5 and D4 and address 'our' needs independent of W being in our family.
I keep thinking about this whole 'not feeling safe' thing that she is using to prevent us from talking. I'm not sure why it bothers me, maybe because I don't understand where it is coming from.
I don't want to discard this feeling that she says she has, I want to understand it. The only thing I can guess is that this is part of the justification that she had in doing what she did. I bought into this before I knew about OM, but her reasons were all over the place and were pretty trivial. I then felt that she felt this way because of not knowing what my reaction would be about the A. Since then, it seems like this is just a pre-canned excuse. For a month we've been interacting a lot better, then when MC states the progress she defaults back to this same statement. I wonder if the fact that we were progressing caught her by surprise.
I guess if I look back, the A wasn't a new thing that caused her to leave right after it started, this has been going on for a long time. Interestingly, at one point about a year ago I caught her in a flat out lie. It wasn't about anything horrible, but I asked her why she felt she had to lie to me. She said that she knew what I would say, so she didn't want to tell me. I see that this was as she was starting the spiral of OM and I let it go at the time and didn't think anything of it, but I guess she spent a year actively trying to deceive me and everyone. She needs to get herself through that.
In fact when she later told she has pursued OP during various stages of our relationship, I realized that there are some serious internal struggles she has. This is not based on something with me or happened recently in our marriage. I'm not quite sure why she told me this, I thought that it was a good sign as she was identified her own issues but I also wonder if she's using that to justify in her mind that she never was in love with me in the first place.
Its almost like this is part MLC for her. I think she knows that I would support her in some of these areas she didn't want to address herself. In our lives we always had a good ability to use each other to guide us during our struggles. However, I think she was (or still is) not ready to address these issues. She had a rough childhood and took a bunch of responsibility earlier than needed due to her parent's divorce; her dad leaving their lives for the most part and her mom re-focusing just on herself when her kids were in need. My W identified this at about 14-15 and start to really care for her younger siblings. In fact, at one of the original MC sessions, she said she felt just like she did back then. She's told me most of this is because she was overwhelmed an I think that she has defaulted to the pattern that her Mom had. This wasn't MCS original thought, but was told to me by my SIL.
I just wish I (or someone) could help her. Seeing her this week and how she looked shows me that she's struggling. I keep reminding myself that's a good thing for our sitch, but then it dawns on me that this is the person I've cared for most in my life.
Lastly, I figured out that at a minimum the friendship with OM is still ongoing even though the A is not public. The OM's GF doesn't know still. This makes me feel worse because as I said to the MC; W doesn't realize that she's chasing the person that continues to use her, while the person that is waiting to support her is being discarded. I just feel really bad for her right now. There goes my 'protector' trait again. I guess I can't worry about that.
I keep thinking about this whole 'not feeling safe' thing that she is using to prevent us from talking. I'm not sure why it bothers me, maybe because I don't understand where it is coming from.
MCS why should it come from anywhere? This is W feeling from her!
I don't want to discard this feeling that she says she has, I want to understand it.
You may never understand another's feelings. Even if you did things will move on.
The only thing I can guess is that this is part of the justification that she had in doing what she did. I bought into this before I knew about OM, but her reasons were all over the place and were pretty trivial.
they are probably not trivial to W
I then felt that she felt this way because of not knowing what my reaction would be about the A.
Mind reading MCS. It could be about the colour of the curtains.
Since then, it seems like this is just a pre-canned excuse.
she sounds stuck
For a month we've been interacting a lot better, then when MC states the progress she defaults back to this same statement. I wonder if the fact that we were progressing caught her by surprise.
Mind reading again
I guess if I look back, the A wasn't a new thing that caused her to leave right after it started, this has been going on for a long time. Interestingly, at one point about a year ago I caught her in a flat out lie. It wasn't about anything horrible, but I asked her why she felt she had to lie to me. She said that she knew what I would say, so she didn't want to tell me
MCS, W is an adult. Let her take the consequences of her lies, call it in a good way. W, this seems different to me, there is X and Y which I differs from Z that you just stated.
I see that this was as she was starting the spiral of OM and I let it go at the time and didn't think anything of it, but I guess she spent a year actively trying to deceive me and everyone. She needs to get herself through that.
MCS, W does not need to do anything.
In fact when she later told she has pursued OP during various stages of our relationship, I realized that there are some serious internal struggles she has. This is not based on something with me or happened recently in our marriage. I'm not quite sure why she told me this, I thought that it was a good sign as she was identified her own issues but I also wonder if she's using that to justify in her mind that she never was in love with me in the first place.
MCS concentrated on MCS and being the best MCS you can be. Mind reading W, you can damage yourself by being concerned whether you were loved. move on to today MCS. The past is gone.
Its almost like this is part MLC for her. I think she knows that I would support her in some of these areas she didn't want to address herself.
tell her in MC
In our lives we always had a good ability to use each other to guide us during our struggles.
However, I think she was (or still is) not ready to address these issues.
She will be ready when she is. To her timetable, that of her own.
She had a rough childhood and took a bunch of responsibility earlier than needed due to her parent's divorce; her dad leaving their lives for the most part and her mom re-focusing just on herself when her kids were in need. My W identified this at about 14-15 and start to really care for her younger siblings. In fact, at one of the original MC sessions, she said she felt just like she did back then.
that is quite some responsibility for a youngster, I am in awe that she did that. Step up to the plate, quite remarkable and caring but probably overwhelming, but she did it.
She's told me most of this is because she was overwhelmed an I think that she has defaulted to the pattern that her Mom had.
any kid of that age would be overwhelmed. That is definitely not her moms pattern MCS. From V eyes at that age was the opposite. Great forbearance in W and great capacity.
This wasn't MCS original thought, but was told to me by my SIL.
I just wish I (or someone) could help her.
you will have to let W do this. Let go of trying to help W. MCS has enough with MCS.
Seeing her this week and how she looked shows me that she's struggling. I keep reminding myself that's a good thing for our sitch, but then it dawns on me that this is the person I've cared for most in my life.
Lastly, I figured out that at a minimum the friendship with OM is still ongoing even though the A is not public. The OM's GF doesn't know still.
GFs business, she may or may not.
This makes me feel worse because as I said to the MC; W doesn't realize that she's chasing the person that continues to use her, while the person that is waiting to support her is being discarded.
W choice.
I just feel really bad for her right now.
this is as hard as feeling bad for oneself. However unreasonable it may be or uncomfortable. MCS look after MCS
There goes my 'protector' trait again. I guess I can't worry about that.
Stop. MCS you are trying to understand in order to put things in place. life is messy, R is messy and even if ordered will become disordered.
Concentrate on MCS and your lovely precious children
V
V,
As I was writing that yesterday, I pretty much knew you were going to say what you just did, concentrate on MCS. As far as the role she took as a teenager, I agree it was selfless and mature. That is the character of the person that I've known for 15 years. My statement about her feeling overwhelmed was she said she felt that way in our M. The comparison I stated to her mom was that I'm guessing that when her parents got D, her mom felt that way (too overwhelmed) and withdrew from her kids in which my W picked up the 'motherly' pieces. It seems as if W has done the same thing. Got overwhelmed and withdrew into her own world over the last year. It doesn't matter, just I can empathize with her sitch.
I don't know what it was about our MC session the other day, but writing this now is different than before. Before, I wanted to be 'part' of her journey through this, now I'm just 'observing' what I think the journey is. I feel bad for her in a 'TV movie' kind of way, you understand the plight and the struggles; but sitting on the sideline with no ability to help. It's no longer taxing on me and consuming me like it was before.
____________________
For me, I think the main thing is that I know I'm going to be just fine in all of this. I'm not bearing the responsibility that I once was for her actions. They are hers, period. I look back and our marriage was normal and fine. She chose this path and chose to keep me out of trying to deal with her struggles. I guess for me, the attempt for justification of the sitch now in my mind is that I'm struggling to give 'myself' a timeline for her to work this stuff out.
I care for her and want to wait it out for our relationship, because we had something good. I see clearly that she tried to deal with her struggles on her own while we were together and I think this path is a cheese-less tunnel for her. The rejection is not weighing on me too heavy for some reason. However, the kids are what keeps me patient. Its not that I think we should get back together for the kids, but the kids are bolstering my patience to wait it out and not move on.
As far as the kids, I change my tune a little at MC this week and told her I was going to take them to counseling and didn't ask her. We had them come to our MC one week and it was pretty uneventful, but I need someone that can build a rapport with them. Their issues are not being interjected into their personalities and most of their interactions, but they talk to me about their feelings when they get comfortable mostly before bed.
MCS
It is possible that W can find her way back to W, an new improved W and it will be in her own time. W appears lost to W.
V
Hi MCS
I just wanted to weigh in on the whole 'not feeling safe' thing, not that I have any advice to give
I think you know from my situation that my wife says the sane thing. It really bothers/hurts/upsets me because in my mind its just not what I would do and I feel like I actually spent a lot of the time putting my needs and concerns aside (wrongly I now know) in an effort NOT to hurt or upset her.
So it really stings because 1) I can see in her actions that she truly feels this way and 2) because it fundamentally challenges my sense of self.
Now I can see how different things I said or did hurt her, some directly others less so and sometimes there was nothing wrong with what I said but it accidentally tapped into some internal source if hurt within her. So as Vanilla said we may never understand why she feels that way all we can do is look at the bits if behaviour if ours that we aren't comfortable with.
And to illustrate, my W is afraid of daddy long legs (crane fly), they can't hurt her in anyway but yet she is still afraid of them.
You can hurt her so even if you don't, or even hint at it, thats still enough in itself to make her afraid, especially if she expects you to.
Jim, V,
Thanks, yeah this feeling definitely hurts, cause like you, Jim, not feelin 'safe' around me would be the last thing I would ever think of someone saying about me. As V says, I think she's stuck. I can see these feelings manifesting themselves since she kept A a secret for so long. I would think she probably constantly was wondering of i was catching on. I wonder if this is residual and is thawing a little since I confronted her. I haven't heard her say this for a while, but it was the MC that was applying a little bit of pressure for us to continue to talk outside of C when she said it.
Anyway, went out to an outing at a friends house with a bunch of people yesterday, which was fun. I emailed W because I forgot to pack snow boots for the kids and said non-descriptly that I was going out and would be in her area of she wanted me to drop them off. Trying to project some mystery on my status, but I don't think she's noticing or really even cares right now.
MCS
She is noticing.
This is early days for MCS GAL.
V
MCS
She is noticing.
This is early days for MCS GAL.
V
Yep, I suppose. I guess I threw it out there as a litmus test. I also said I could "drop them off" since she has made it known before she moved that she doesn't want me near her house. Another weird thing, I have no idea why. I joked to someone that she didn't want me to see the OM shrine like one of those creepy movies
I initially asked if I could stop by and see the kids arrangements especially cause my kids are there and they were sleeping on the floor in her apartment, but it's not worth pursuing it. Anyway, I think the main reason is there's more for her to hide and she realizes that talking with her she lets out more than she wants.
For me, I'm lonely but feeling somewhat comfortable with my 'new' life. Need to start GAL in public in earnest soon. I've run out of things to upgrade around the house....
Today, I continue to realize how much W is trying to blame me with her problems even though I've been out of her life for 6 months.
So, D4 must have gotten sick last night. W sends me a message saying that she was sick and she was taking her to doctors. This was a good thing since the other week, she took S5 and never told me. Well, anyway, she asked in the email if I could pick up D4 at a gas station at 4pm. Here's my response verbatim:
"W,
No, I can't meet up prior to 5:15. Also, I would prefer not to do kids exchanges in parking lots.
--MCS"
Anyway I get a message later saying she dropped D4 at daycare and I could pick her up there. Well, why would you drop your sick kid at daycare at the end of the day ~1.5 hours before closing?
So, I called daycare to apologize about W dropping off sick kid. Daycare said it was no worry, they knew that was W decision and not mine. Also said that daycare told W that if D5 is sick, she should stay home the whole day so other kids don't get sick. Well, daycare told me at that point, W looked away and looked like she was going to start to cry and said "MCS has been really difficult today." I don't know if it was to try and get a reaction or probably just to deflect the blame.
So, daycare told me they knew that W was making things up and didn't believe her. so before, I would just go back and try to figure out where my communication went a stray to how she 'felt.' Today, I see it doesn't matter anything I say will be taking in the wrong context.
I think you're right that you shouldn't take it too personally, that everything will be taken the wrong way. It's part of human nature when there is mistrust.
I will say that your text message was a bit curt. In fact, I read your first line, then the text message, so I thought it was hers for a second and felt you had reasons to be upset. Perhaps this:
"I'm sorry, I can't meet up prior to 5:15 because of work. Also, I'd like to find a nicer place than parking lots. Perhaps [park X nearby]? Thanks"
I'm not sure why you don't like the parking lots, but the text could be adapted to your reasons. Also, notice that my reply makes it less work for her, if she goes for the suggested place.
I know how tense the communications are with your W. I'm not going through anything similar as mine seems keen to engage beyond what I offer. I'm just saying that given that she seems offended by everything you say, there might be some social lubricant to help eventually.
I know you don't mean to, but be very careful not to appear to put the daycare staff in between you and your W. I think calling them to apologize on behalf of your W was just that. Your W did the same when she said you're being difficult. You're fighting for their sympathy. Right now, it plays in your favor, but soon it could turn against you because either the staff will become uncomfortable or your W will realize that they are on your side. Keep playing cool and they will just see.
Mozza,
Yeah, I guess it was a kind of terse. I can say that I made a decision that I'm not going to bend over backwards to 'tailor' my emails with her. I tried to do that early on and got analysis paralysis. However, I do appreciate the feedback as i don't want to inadvertently say something that is definitely able to be taken the wrong way.
As far as daycare, they are already one-sided. Its a home daycare so there's only a husband and a wife we've had our kids there since they were born. Also, I live in a small town so most people are separated by only two degrees.
They were the ones that found out about OM first. They had made some comments over the last year or so about how W would drop off kids on her days off and then not pick them up until right before they closed the center, while I was at work. I did that every once in a while on my days off, so didn't think anything of it. I never really asked W why, but I can kind of remember her saying she had to run errands and all. I didn't mind either way.
The month before BD, W bad-mouthed me for a couple weeks in front of them, which was unusual. Then seeing that and the thing above, when W up and just left me and the kids; they were already suspicious. Well, then a friend of theirs asked them what was up with W and I, since this person saw W and OM together on two separate occasions. One of them was a trip for training for work that they all happened to be in. So, after hearing this, they spent about a month trying to tell me there was something more going on with OM, but I kept explaining it away as a friendship. They also see these huge changes in parenting that W is now making and they do have my kids best interest in their heart. So, I have to be careful in some of their advice.
So, MC was today and I went full-ish anti-DB I think or maybe not.....I guess I see it as I was not pursuing, begging or pleading; but more confidently talking about where I see our sitch and the future.
I'll add more later, but it was the first time that we actually talked about our relationship itself and what went wrong with it. It was a lot of spew, some was deeper hurting that I saw. However, my W's lies have broken down around her story in that all of the examples that she was giving about how our marriage was not working were AFTER her affair had started. Especially as I saw that the things she said, I fixed when she said them. Her counter was "I was just playing the role that I cared that you changed them"
It was an actual argument/heated discussion which interestingly enough we never really had many in our relationship. I can see that W is in so much pain and pretty much said 'no one cares about me.' I said to her, the ones that care about you, you've shut out of your life. She then replied all of those people (mom, BFF1, BFF2) are selfish and don't care. She said that she has had to protect herself from all of these people. I asked why and she said because she can't trust them. I said who can you trust? She thought for a while and said "I can trust my Sister"
Also, I said that I still care about her a couple times and she asked why I keep saying it, she knows its a 'lie.' I then said "W, why do you think I'm still in this after I found out all that has happened during our marriage. I know I'm going to be okay out of this, no matter what the outcome is. I'm not fighting for our marriage for just me, but I'm fighting for it because I care about you."
So, it seems a corner has turned, I just don't know if its towards R or D. I see how much pain my W is in, her whole world has collapsed around her and she's still not attributing it to some of the decisions she has made, but rather projecting back that all of the people that care about her are the problem. I also see that this 'person' she has become she is definitely not comfortable with. That gives me hope, but I'm still concerned that in 6 months; it seems like I'm the only person that gets her to deal with the reality of the situation. Better yet, it maybe that the reality is hitting her and her 'wall' of keeping me from seeing it is starting to break down.
Today is a day that I realize how much my sitch is in God's hands.
MCS
I agree with Mza. There is an unwell child involved here, for you beautiful D please extend kindness in this. Take the higher ground and be generous.
You will feel better in your self for acting with love.
V
V,
I haven't headed over to your thread to see what's up, but glad you're back. I also agree, I probably answered her a little to quick as I was going through email from work and just answered her without much thought. It something I need to look out for because as Mozza said, the 'business-like' attitude is something I've wanted her to change.
To add more to my MC above (there's a lot to cover.) we started out talking about the kids and after actually discussing some petty (my view) stuff about her changing the kids schedule so we both had exactly the same number of days, we
got to the point we both were in agreement that we need to put "us" aside and focus on what's best for the kids. It was really good progress. We then talked about our M for about 45 minutes. I guess that's a backslide too, but even though that was painful for both of us it was progress.
MC actually asked if we would feel okay walking out together. W and I both sat there for a few moments (I felt I was already pushing too much) then wife got up and left. I had a few quick words for MC and left myself and then just totally lost it in my car. It stinks seeing us both go through this pain and understand the extreme lack of communication that I didn't even identify in our M.
MCS
The pain is worth going through to be effective in co parenting your precious joint bundles. I am delighted for you that you made great progress in MC to this end.
I know that like me, you have a spiritual way of thinking, and I would suggest that you choose a very kind spiritual guide to model your responses to W, St Theresa perhaps. What would she respond to W? This may assist you in warming to W and using the kind and loving voice to the mother of your children.
V
V,
Yep, that's why I've been more vocal about some of this stuff even though it goes against some DB principles. I realize now that even at the sacrifice of a chance that we can R, W needs to get healthy to be the best mom she can be for the little ones.
Also, you hit in something else we discussed today, our faith and how it affects our viewpoints of the sitch. W said God gave her the strength to walk away. That she's a better christian now that she's left the marriage because she was 'angry' all the time when married. I replied that being 'angry' doesn't mean that you are not a good christian, Jesus got angry too in the bible. I then added that I feel God is telling me to be patient and love. I said to her, "W, this bothers me everyday that both of us feel God is leading us, but for each of us it is in opposite directions"
MCS
W need do nothing MCS, deal with MCS and stop trying to control what W does. It is Gods job to judge and teach, this is W relationship with him not yours. MCS has his own R with his God.
I believe God (as we know him for me Higher Spirit) as love never leaves us, as they say Love is all around,. God stays with his children through all of life and some times in life we as his children lose the ability to connect and channel that love.
Anger can be a barrier to channeling love, MCS that need not be you, you can chose to open that channel, you can chose to connect to your higher power. As a man blessed to know the spirit then you have this already in your heart as a way of life.
Embrace love and become the man you can be. Whilst you love then anger is in the distance, the body can hold only one emotion at a time so let that be love. Project (leave ILY alone) love to W as the mother of your children and this will soften your stance, words and meaning. Soften MCS for your children, being around two unhappy parents even if they love you will be very uncomfortable for children.
Soften and relax, this is better for MCS health and wellbeing. As the most responsible parent MCS thie role of channelled love and protection falls to you. Please stop criticising and discussing W with the carers as V believes this harms you and your R with your children. This is vital to MCS, W as the mother of your children deserves this, if you deny this in your own mind then you will deny W her role. How can W then find a road back to MCS? Even if W wants to return in time, how can she if MCS denies all her roles, pushes anger at his damaged R into W role as mother. You can state your preference as a boundary on clothes, on timekeeping, on safety, but these are behaviours MCS not about the person of W.
Jesus spoke of forgiveness, the mote, and throwing the first stone. Your R with W is H and W, both are responsible, forgive each other, MCS take the first step project love channelled from your higher spirit: God if you will as that love is always there, find this in your tender heart. Be strong and be loving instead of being angry.
Peace MCS
V
V,
Thanks for the kind words.
So, I've regressed in my own emotional standing right now because during our session, W threw stuff my way that was assessed by her to such an extreme that it is now bothering me that this is what she believes for herself. I know its not true, but this re-writing history seems to be that W seems to keep searching for something to believe for herself to about me to justify her actions.
Anyway, that was a short time during our session and I see that I'm breaking the cycle of angrily reacting to the spew. W knows how to get to me and that's through telling me that I never cared for her. I didn't take the bait in full-out defense mode, but I changed my reaction to constructively try to address why 'she' feels this way. At that point, the spew was directed to everyone else, her mom, my mom, her BFF's.
Reason I'm highlighting this again is that it's hurt my detachment. Just as I was coming to grips that this is truly the decision that W wants, I saw all of the pain that she is creating for herself by shutting out the others around her and then creating scenarios in her head that they don't care about her. She told me this is to protect herself and I guess I see that this is not just with me, but everyone. She's in pain and it seems she doesn't know how to get out. It's so difficult to sit back and watch it happening. I need to fight the urge to 'help'
So, I went back and read my post and I actually think the session was good. When I said it was heated; it was more closer to emotionally heated. W was throwing things my way of how I knew, but didn't care that our M was falling apart. I asked her how she 'knew' that I knew and she just stared at me and said "well, it doesn't matter anyway I was already done with the M for over a year" or "I told your mom" or "I put on an act to show you I actually cared"
It was rough to just take it, but it showed me the pain that she's in. I didn't get angry, I validated and when she through total re-writes of history I said I don't remember it that way. I sometimes explained how I saw the marriage and she either said that "it didn't matter she was going to do this anyway" or "I don't believe that you cared"
I can say, I'm getting to the point that I'm starting to forgive the past, as painful as it seems looking back at how deceptive she was. I'm starting to see her emotional state right now and feel so much compassion for her that I'm starting to put the present aside. We discussed the kids at first and seemed to make a lot of strides in both agreeing that we need to focus on them. I slipped and said something like "we need to figure out if they are going to stay in 'their' house for....." and she fired back "they have two homes now." I apologized and said that wasn't my intention to state it that way. She said okay, and we moved on.
V, I'm tiptoeing on this line of 'softening' and 'loving' her with what my IC says is my 'Hero' archetype. My IC said through all of this, she just sees the passion that I have to 'make it all better' not via control per se, but out of love and concern. She doesn't know how I'm keeping it together through all of the hurt (even intentional) that W has put me through. Someone said its because my self-esteem is low, but its because its actually the opposite.
So, I see that's what I need to learn. How do I 'love' someone and sit on the sideline as I see them struggling. I thought I had this licked with detachment, but I see that the emotional strain is back again (not nearly as much or deep as before) Even putting W aside, I feel the same need to 'rescue' my kids from this sitch.
Sitting back and watching is the toughest thing in the world.
For kiddos, V I see the bond that we have created through this. S5 has a card for me everyday that he made in school saying he loves me. D4 will just come up to me pull me down real close and whisper in my ear "Daddy, I love you" I need to heed your advice and remove discussions from daycare about the sitch. Its tough, because without interacting with W at all; most info comes through them, at W's request. I don't know how to stop that.
V, I'm in a much better place than a couple months ago. Many other's around me have said about my growth throughout the sitch. I don't feel it personally, but I know its happening.
In all of this, I pray that even though I want to know the path up an over the mountain, all I need to understand is the next step and I have faith that the plan is already in the works. I don't know what that looks like, but I feel that this session we had was that next step. There's a reason that she showed me the pain that's still with her this far into our sitch even though she doesn't want me to see it. That's the step. I was detaching and getting cold; I need to detach and still care. Not sure how, that'll be my next step.
Thanks for hanging in there with me
So, had a dream last night one of those really vivid ones that you really believe that it's your life. In the dream, I remember being confused and I was looking around the house and things that I recently changed were back to how they used to be. So I realized it was in the past, but couldn't understand why. I walked into the bedroom and W was looking stressed putting laundry away. Out of the blue, I asked "W, are you thinking of leaving the marriage?" She looked at me and said "Yes, I've been thinking about that" I said "Let's go get some help..."
Ugh
MCS
There is a 12 step saying for codependents about the addictive behaviour (WAS to their addictions, their EA/PA gambling, alcohol, smoking, etc...) and those of us addicted to the addict.
We are not the cause
We can not control
And
We can give no cure
the addict
We can only manage our own dependency
Very early on one of my mentors recommended a book to me. simple to the point and explains in English the very basics. I have read and reread the book as every time I do, I get more from it.
It is
codependency for dummies by Darlene Lancer. I understand this better than codepend no more. It is a very strong recommendation to you. I was not diagnosed as codependent although I exhibits some of the behavious. It is very hard for an ADD to be codependent as they are easily distracted, GAL is a wonderful technique for me. This book is full of definitions, basics, diagrams and references. And is one of the few books that I revisit time after time and helpful as an approach to understanding addiction and my own recovery from the affects of this in my life.
I am lucky to have loving caring Gamanon mentors that remind me from time to time to revisit the basics. Al turtle on line stuff, (for teenagers) and this book. A gentle 2x4, and realistically this has helped me become more understanding and work from my own heart.
Stay with this MCS as the process works. 12 steps and DB work in harmony a book like this will explain why addicts rewrite history and how to use techniques to stabilise your own view so that the distortion is ineffective and less damaging.
Dreams are useful guides MCS to our underlying desires and wants. That is process.
Time MCS is on your side. Your children sound so loving, I could eat up every word about them like a delicious treat.
Dream on
V
V,
Thanks for the recommendation, I guess I do have a question for you though?
What traits do you see in me that you feel I have these tendencies? I did some quick Wiki reading on it and i do see some areas that I exhibit, but there are many that I feel are actually opposite of my personality.
Things I see that are attributes of mine
1) Rescuer, care-giver, (I see this in all areas of my life, including work)
2) Finds (some) identity in how others feel
3) Subordinating one's well-being for others (although I never have felt like I'm a martyr or anything like that) I just get satisfaction in seeing other's happy
Things that I feel pretty strongly I don't exhibit (or in some cases see that the opposite is a strength of mine
1) Intense/unstable interpersonal relationships
2) Inability to tolerate being alone (I prefer to be this way sometimes)
3) Feelings of boredom/emptiness
4) Dishonesty/denial
5) Low self worth (actually quite the opposite)
So at IC this week, I did ask her. "MCS has been here for 6 months dealing with Grief counseling, focused at R with my W. I'm at the point....what do you think of MCS's as a person?"
At that point is where she said she see's my desire to 'help' and in some cases put my pain aside to do it for others. She explained to a pretty uncanny degree where I think the core issue was in the marriage. This is not a 'fault' of mine but something that another friend of mine explained to me. She said that since she's just heard my side, it appears that W was less sure of the path her life was going and to an extent, I 'helped' her stay synced with me, with having similar goals in our marriage/life. However, W seems to have struggled with fitting into this path. However, MCS was standing, guiding and the stability while W was being to struggle internally. However, she didn't know how to get 'out' and deal with it. Letting MCS in to the solution would only reinforce what she was struggling with in the first place, dependency on MCS. ICS said to me "MCS trying to help (even now) is causing her to feel more unsafe/unsure in herself and she will continue to push you away, remember that when you are trying to help" Those are pretty tough words to hear.
It helped, but I went back to my old self when wife showed me all of her pain and anger inadvertently. I was saying to her to not do this alone, go find folks to talk to. Everyone that I suggested, W angrily said they don't care, except for Sis.
I don't know how to stop that, I was confident, didn't beg, didn't pursue other than saying I wouldn't take things forward to D, this is her decision. I know the answer is be detached, but it went out the door when I saw her struggling.
MCS
For me, it is because MCS is putting W, her absence, her behaviour and the loss of his M together with thoughts of OM before MCS.
There are balances between a locked R and independence. The book I recommend explains the theories and these are tested and repeatable. The balance between H, W and the M. MCS is a spiritual thinker and by letting his higher power have the necessary thinking structure in a less emotional form he will integrate better strategies for living. The rational part of MCS can link with the loving part. I believe MCS has the will to change but appears unknowing on structure and theory. The barrier can be that of dogma which is useful in shortcut thinking but a hindrance to deeper thought.
I believe MCS has realisations which arrive from the introduction of ideas and structured thinking. MCS may need more theoretical knowledge as I believe MCS is an 'integrator' or 'digital thinker'. I have observed MCS is a spurter making great leaps with small pieces of knowledge. Like a frog hopping great distances rather than a snail moving with slow deliberation. MCS frog once active leaps great distances and then sits on a lily pad until the next great prod produces another enormous leap. I would like MCS to prod himself rather than let life events do this for him.
W is straining to be independent and free (and is addicted to EA/PA). Nothing excuses wayward behaviour in my book, there are better ways of acquiring freedom and it is as is. MCS can choose to accept and work with this rather than against it.
MCS, I would like MCS accept Ws right to be W. I observe MCS moving to control mode. MCS by concentrating on MCS and learning abount boundaries etc, then MCS can grow into MCS. MCS is a very strong man with a good spirit and is a loving dad, he can choose to let W be free to be W, even if W comes home then unless W can be free this may be temporary. W has to be free to be W even within an M and MCS has the desire to understand how this can happen and seems to be reaching for the tools that permit it.
MCS needs more knowledge not more emotion.
This is what I see and I hope that Sandi or 25 as vets can offer her opinion please. As all I can offer is the benefit of lesser experience.
That is what I see MCS
V
For me, it is because MCS is putting W, her absence, her behaviour and the loss of his M together with thoughts of OM before MCS.
Ok, I understand this and I thought that may be the case and I agree. I wanted to dig deeper if you had thought that my self-esteem, self-worth or issues with being in a 'single' state were your concerns because that's not how I feel at all and thought maybe my posts may be projecting something that I don't feel.
The rational part of MCS can link with the loving part.
This is so true in what I'm struggling to obtain. Since other than controlling (which I initially thought was a devious trait, but now I see its unintentional) I still can't pinpoint what other behaviors I was displaying for W to be unhappy. I can't figure out how to be loving without kicking back into my rational (controlling) tendencies
MCS frog once active leaps great distances and then sits on a lily pad until the next great prod produces another enormous leap. I would like MCS to prod himself rather than let life events do this for him.
Another assessment that you hit the nail right on the head. This is how I learn and I've never been fantastic at reading and comprehending; but I'm really good at experiencing and then piecing disparate pieces of knowledge together.
W is straining to be independent and free (and is addicted to EA/PA)..... MCS can choose to accept and work with this rather than against it. MCS, I would like MCS accept Ws right to be W
Here's another one that I feel that I'm growing to accept (for me and M) but still struggling on her independence and freedom from motherhood (although it seems to be getting better) I have noticed that I'm not as caught up in OM think, maybe because it seems to be over; but more because I know that is between W and OM. I've struggled with applying that same principle between W and Kids
I observe MCS moving to control mode.
Yep, and I actually felt this too. The last couple days I have regressed a little based on some nasty stuff W said about me that's not true but it hurts that either she's lying or that's how she feels at the moment. I also saw that during our session; I became polarized to try and 'help' (which actually is control) the sitch she's in.
V, I can't thank you enough for posting here. It's amazing to me that not even knowing me that you've been able to assess the person that I was before and am working on now. I feel like I've known you for a long time because not only does it seem that you know me....you know how to get me to 'understand' things that I've never had to deal with in life. Like others (Sandi, Wonka, Starsky, 25, etc.) I can say that I see the work of the man above through you folks on an anonymous message board.
Also, on a closing note. I think I'm getting to the point that I'm not afraid of either outcome or R or D. That's not in my hands. However, its not preventing me from understanding that I still want our M to work. This is a concept I never thought I would understand just a few months ago.
MCS
Thank you .
Much as I would like to take the credit for this, well a little the ADD helps. MCS, you underestimate your own role, primarily the honesty, the intention that MCS has to change and accept challenges that will improve MCS. This is very key to you and your ability to see and understand. So I am glad that the way I write is smoothing your way forward.
MCS is ready to change and grow, to hop to the next Lilly pad. Frogs change into princes you know!
It is that with which we struggle that encourages growth.
There are other aspects too, which I know you will understand. MCS, you have a spiritual background which is both a positive and a negative impediment to growth. positive because there is an extra strength an ability to connect, to pray and to interpret. Negative in a way that is role constraining, those views can if we let them allow dogma to define our roles as W and H and as mum and dad.
So if I said that it is the higher power with whom both MCS and V are connected that communicates, could you accept that? Can you also accept that in this way my connections to my higher power are strengthened too? This higher power is older than both our souls and ancient behind us and eternal in front of us. In this way DB connects without space and judgement. We are part of higher power and these tenets are free to us if we open our minds and hearts.
MCS you are truly growing and changing for you and your beautiful children that you write about so joyously.
Suppose, just suppose that W parenting was ok, different, off beat, unusual, but that there was benefit to it that MCS could not see? That wearing open toed shoes with woollen mittens was expression? That eating chocolate ice cream for a day with tomato sauce was experience. That W loves her children and that unusual unkempt hair is an 'in look', that really none of that matters at all. Just suppose? Suppose the universe was smiling on it. As long as no physical harm arises, that it is ok, unconventional, wacky, quirky motherhood, W own style brand and OK. I would have loved that kind of mother, I always wanted to be Gerrald Durrells sister from My Family and Other Animals, mad as a 'box of frogs'.
Full circle MCS, enjoy being in the box of frogs. It can be ok if you let it and smile instead.
V
V,
Thanks. I had a big backslide. You're going to be disappointed in me.....Seeing her in pain is just too much.
School was cancelled, so we needed to do an exchange of the kids other than normal that one drops off at school the other picks up. I told W that I can drop off at her place or she can pick up at mine. W chooses parking lot at a store. I said I don't think that's a good idea for the kids, I ad emailed her that last week and she never responded, I said she could call and we could talk. W tells me that I'm preventing her from seeing the kids. I fire back about the rhetoric and lies she tells people about me, just like this. Fill in about hearing OM say that I was withholding kids and also tell her the story of her friend that helped her move and he called me back into the house and told me he was mis-informed about what the sitch actually was and gave me his number to call and talk if I needed to. W responded "Why would he say something like that to you?" I said "I have no idea, I don't even know who he was"
Getting back to the exchange, I said that is my boundary for the kids, they deserve more than a casual trade in a parking lot. Also told her I've decided that I'm going to look only at what I feel is best for the kiddos.
After 4-5x of her telling me I need to come up with something that works for her followed by her hanging up on me, W finally says she'll come get them. Comes in and S5 starts crying because he doesn't want to go and D4 wants to show her a set-up of her toys that she's been telling me all week she wants mom to see. W keeps telling her no. D4 asks me to go take a picture so I can come back and show mom. I look at W and say 'Please, just be their Mom'
She snarls, and I ask her if she's been seeing a counselor. She says "Counselor says I'm just fine' I ask her if she's told counselor the truth. She looks up and stares at me. On the way out, I said: "W, please get healthy for the kids" I then ask "Why are you pushing away everyone that cares for you?" She says "because everyone treats me like $h!t"
She leaves and she then sends text message later that I can't call the shots and withhold the kids from her. Says no more talk, just text. I say that this has been my fear that we have disagreements and she shuts down communication.
So to further the backslide, W showed me this week how much pain and anger she's holding trying to continue to support her lie (that OM is not involved in any of her decisions, its all MCS) I saw the struggle, I backslid more today and called SIL (haven't talked to her since she came over to go through W things.) As you know SIL is level headed and like everyone else totally confused about what actually happened to our M. As soon as she picked up the phone, SIL says W is a mess, they tried to go on vacation with W's 'new' friends and W treated SIL like dirt. SIL said W is always on the phone, even when driving she's constantly distracted from the kids and life in general. SIL says that she's been attached to the phone since last summer and she doesn't know why. I asked "Has W told you about it?" SIL says no, she doesn't know. Obviously, W has not even told SIL what's going on. I didn't reveal anything. SIL said back in the summer (week of OM rendezvous) or fall (Wedding w/ kids) that W was at her Dad's and S5 was acting up. Grandfather disciplined him and W stormed out of the house. SIL said it seems like W doesn't have control of the kids. I told SIL to keep being there for W. It seems like W is hearing same thing from all around her hopefully she will work out of whatever she's in right now. Also said that I haven't given up.
So earlier this week, W made some heinous accusations about me that are all lies; to continue to cover the truth of what has happened. They are false, I really have no need to defend. However, she sent me a text today saying it again. Its going to force me to shut down communications with her. Its unfortunate, kids are going to suffer.
MCS, it is my role as your DB friend to support you as I hope so is yours for V. I really want your success and happiness however that ends for MCS. When MCS does the best he can, he should be proud, he can ask no more of himself.
W is truly wayward and MCS let her be. If she lies about you that may be a boundary issue for you. In this way W needs to know.
MCS, you could say 'W you and I know the truth about OM. If you continue to say X and Y about me and it is repeated to me then I will correct the lie.'
MCS have you seen Sandi new post about Wayward Wives, it is insightful reading MCS.
Sandi on Wayward Wives V
V,
Thanks for the reassurance. I got the book you recommended in and am starting to read it.
I don't know what 'not' to do about W. I understand she is wayward and continues to lie to everyone. Found out today that BFF2, whom is a very passive person and idolizes W just snapped at her and set a boundary for W, although W didn't seem to respect it. If BFF2 has hit her limit, things are bad.
I actually think she's convinced herself her lies are reality. I can't control that, my issue is because of her thinking her lies are true, no boundaries seem to be able to be set. I'm beginning to think there's actually something really wrong with her mindset right now. I'm scared about her with the kids right now. She seems to be crashing and I don't know what rock bottom will look like. I'm going on travel this week and she has the kids. I'm afraid of her emotional state because it seems to be all over the map. However, it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do about it. I need to have faith that He is looking out for the little ones. This has gotten to a point that is not good at all.
Like I said, I think I'm going to have to shut down all communication with her. It's what she has wanted since the beginning. Now that she's thrown these fallacies on the table, even though they are just that I need to protect myself. I wished it hadn't come to this.
MCS
There are trusted adults around, you can check the children are with the carers.
I am glad that you are finding out some basics about how Rs work. These kind of books give theory and examples. I suspect like V, it is harder with posters to extract structure. MCS seems to have preference with structured knowledge.
Waywards have to distort reality to fit their view, my understanding is that this is called cognitive dissonance. Eventually there are so many differences between Ws view and reality that the bubble bursts. Then patching of reality occurs, that seems to be replay. Repeating and looping until eventually there is disintegration. This is how addiction works in gambling compulsion, eventually rock bottom is hit and despite flailing change, real change occurs. If W is right minded ( and my notes say that W took great care of her siblings from a very young age) so that is good for your co parenting in the longer term.
MCS, be strong and kind, your core values and spirituality are glowing in your life. Whatever happens MCS will be the very best dad he can.
V
MCS
Waywards have to distort reality to fit their view, my understanding is that this is called cognitive dissonance. Eventually there are so many differences between Ws view and reality that the bubble bursts. Then patching of reality occurs, that seems to be replay. Repeating and looping until eventually there is disintegration. This is how addiction works in gambling compulsion, eventually rock bottom is hit and despite flailing change, real change occurs. If W is right minded ( and my notes say that W took great care of her siblings from a very young age) so that is good for your co parenting in the longer term.
Perfect....thank you for this. It puts it in perspective. I realize that my backslides now seem to be from a point of empathy for her that is now setting in. I then vacillate back and forth from empathetic to defensive. I actually feel these empathetic thoughts is the first part of forgiveness. The gas lighting that has occurred has knocked me back a little bit, but I saw myself talking today about how W is trying to find her way right now and it will take a while for her to move focus her feelings of things inhibiting her 'growth' from the externals (me, friends, job, etc.) to her internal feelings.
I talked to MC today about recent things and how we went backwards this weekend. He had some good words of advice. I told him that I was looking at 'helping' W not as her husband, but it seems like I'm still really only the one that really knows about her struggles. As a friend that cares about her, I feel that I should help her. He said, "MCS, friendship is a 2 way street. She doesn't want you to be her friend right now." That was worded that put in in perspective for me.
Also talked a little about concerns with the kids and how my fear is increasing. He said, "you need to leave those cares to the one that loves them purely and trust Him" again, worded well that hit me. (I am checking with the carers about them each day this week)
So, doing a little better right now. It was a tough weekend. Thanks for helping me out. Also, I'm selfishly lurking back through your thread to see how you've mastered this 'detached caring' state that you still care for H, but stay detached from his journey.
MCS
Your IC is wise, there is also a danger for MCS in helping as it flips his 'control' switch to on position. For a long time that switch was stuck in the on position MCS and now it flips. MCS this needs to be exchanged for a dimmer switch (analogue) rather than an on/off (switch). In this way 'help' need have different meanings in different situations rather than full on (bright light-full on empathy) or off (complete dark-defensive).
It also looks like W is rejecting friends to maintain her internal state. True friends will stay with it and know W is in there somewhere.
The secret to detachment is GAL so the focus is not on R and W. MCS, you have wonderful ready made GAL with your precious children.
V
Yeah, the control switch was flipped. Like I said before, I always saw the word 'control' negatively but I see in all of our sitches it's good intentions just a mismatch of how its received.
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Carers said D4 not doing too good this morning, she was screaming at W during drop off and looked very, very tired. She said W looked overwhelmed also. No my thing to worry about W, but with D4 screaming she hardly ever does that; it can't be a fantastic week for them. Nothing I can do about it....I'm back from my trip now and that was my main concern.
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So GAL report. Went out with coworkers while we were on our trip. Had a good time, good team bonding. I experimented a little at the bar with holding eye contact with a girl. She looked back, gave a little smile and then started talking to her friend. Kept looking over at each other every couple minutes. Saw her turn down some other guy that approached her. Got to the point that I think I could have went over to talk with her. However, MCS is nowhere near ready for that. But it was a good feeling and boost to self esteem.
Realized a little later that during this time, I was primarily talking to one of my coworkers that is attractive, so I'm sure from the outside it probably looked like she was 'interested in me' and it was a little competition from this other girl at the bar. I joked with my co-worker that she should be my Wing-Women.
All in all, a fun night. We all had a good time and laughed a lot.
At my parents house this weekend with the kids. My mom had some surgery. Let W knew a couple weeks ago I was making the trip and the reason why, no asking before or a response on how things went, not like I expected anything.
Yesterday, W hit me with an email about the kids, nothing new. I saw her tone has changed back to cold and callous, no intro or signature, terse wording. We had a pretty big falling out last week based on trying to exchange kids. I was calm on this convo, but said some stuff that I can tell definitely stung, based on her responses. It wasn't anything angrily negative, but I can tell W knows I'm onto her struggles. She hit me back with some outlandish stuff.
So yesterday, I replied back to email, just reminding her I was planning on taking the kids on trip this weekend and all. I'm numb with her trying to get me spun up in front of her. I see I'm a lot more calm and collected. I think she's starting to see that I'm getting better and she's getting worse.
I'm worried about her, from an emotional state. I thought since our communications were getting better that her emotional state was improving, but we got hit back about 10 steps. I talked to MC early last week and he had some good words, but it's not comforting my general concern for her well being. He was a little upset because he said he could see the progress. I know it's set me back emotionally and I realize there's nothing I can do.
I made an appt with my L for May 1. I think that's my personal timeline to see if things get better. We have a year period before we can file (Aug. 13th) but I think if things aren't better, I'm going to put in formal separation papers. I really don't want to because W and I can't talk about anything and how I want to craft custody right now based on that will get W very mad. Its what I think is best for the kids at the moment and fair for them in what they need, but hopefully it will change in the next couple months.
Basically I laid it out to W last week, she needs to get healthy for the kids. She looked at me and (mind reading) I could tell she knew exactly what I meant. Her response to me right there confirmed it and she sent me something the next day that she's a d@mn good mother and then proceeded to tell me that this is all my fault.
I see that while I got upset on little things before, I'm no longer scared to analyze and hold strong on things I feel are best for the kids, even if it sends so much discord my way. I've accepted our M is dead, and no longer working to 'save' that by just going along with threats.
Emotionally, MCS is struggling still to let go, but I'm stronger and not nearly as afraid of the future.
Oh, forgot to say. At my parents house, W had made a 'family book' of us each XMas to give to all our parents. D4 decided to sit down with me and go through the last 5 years of pictures in the books. Toughest thing I've done in a while. We were having a good time, family trips, laughing, spending time together....we were a happy family....what happened? It's like there was a cancer growing and I didn't see it at all.
I got through about 3 books and my dad saw how much it was affecting me, but I was holding strong for D4. He just said to her, "D4, how about you finish looking through those yourself." Another future step in the journey, reconcile the memories back to being seen for the goodness and not the dark clouds that were looming that I didn't see at all.
Hey MCS, sorry its been a while since Ive checked in- lots of stuff on my mind so I apologize for being selfish. Sounds like both of our sitch's kinda suck right now but I am glad you are getting stronger.
Quite honestly Im not sure if you telling W that she needs to get better was the best thing for you to say. It sounds...accusational? Idk if thats the right word, but something like oh I'm doing fine, YOU need to get better. Maybe something like "Hey W, Im concerned for you because you don't look healthy and I am worried about it." Is that too soft? Reason I say that is because my W as you know is also very unhealthy, losing 30+lbs, etc etc. So I usually just say hey I am worried about you, makes it sound more...caring?
Don't mind her threats. We both know that this is what they do. When they're cornered or feel scared, they threaten us. It'll pass.
Ill check back in soon, keep your head up.
BTW, good on your dad for telling D4 to look at photos on her own, there is no way I could have looked through that. Thinking about you bud.
Oh, one more thing. I think its weird that a lot of people, LBH in particular, are trying to flirt or get attention of women. Im not sure if thats good or bad...i find myself wanting that lately too..just like ANY WOMAN...FLIRT WITH ME, MAKE ME FEEL WANTED...but then I realize...youre not my W..and I go sob in the truck =(
What do you think...should we even be entertaining the idea of flirting? Even if its just for fun? Isn't that how it all starts??? idk MCS...i really don't know.
Hey MCS, sorry its been a while since Ive checked in- lots of stuff on my mind so I apologize for being selfish. Sounds like both of our sitch's kinda suck right now but I am glad you are getting stronger.
No problem, I actually think its good to ebb and flow on the boards here, I've had my share over the last couple weeks of laying low. Sometimes, we all need to just let the sitch stew for a little in our minds.
Quite honestly Im not sure if you telling W that she needs to get better was the best thing for you to say. It sounds...accusational? Idk if thats the right word, but something like oh I'm doing fine, YOU need to get better. Maybe something like "Hey W, Im concerned for you because you don't look healthy and I am worried about it." Is that too soft? Reason I say that is because my W as you know is also very unhealthy, losing 30+lbs, etc etc. So I usually just say hey I am worried about you, makes it sound more...caring?
Yeah, it probably did sound that way. Here's the thing (enter 'controlling, mind reading mode') W has always avoided emotionally difficult topics (shocker.) I look back at our R (15 years of it) and I see that I took the lead in addressing these things. Its a BIG part of how we got here and why I was so blindsided. So, realizing this, I've tried mightily to let her do her thing, especially in the hopes that our M would get R'd. Last week though, she showed the extreme pain and confusion that she's going through. At that point, when I indirectly asked her about whom's she's sharing it with I saw that's she's keeping it all inside still and 6 month's later still hiding behind her lies which seem to be destroying her (another past trait that I see surfacing)
Anyway I hate to sound this way, but it 'feels' like even after 6 months of her leaving, I'm still the closest person to her emotionally. That's scary, but also I think the reason she doesn't want to be around me. She wants to tuck this all away. That's her prerogative, except when it comes to the kids. I would be lying if I said that I don't worry about the kids when their with her. It got better for a while, but I see the same things from earlier on in the sitch starting to pop back up.
So, I agree it was a little direct from me and it may make her rebel more. When she looked at me, and especially fired right back "IC said I'm just fine," I know she knows what I'm talking about. However, our sitch in a weird place of me taking the lead again
This is the same as when I confronted about OM and instead of me getting peeved; gave her the steps to get out of it. She started to, my W started to emerge and then something happened (addiction kicked back in?!?) that made her shut down again.
None of this is good for the sitch, but I'm worried about her. I need to let go, but part of me is wondering why my heart is not going cold to her, no matter how hard she tries. I wrote on your thread about 'faith' and its interesting, right now I 'feel' like I'm just where I need to be give all of the stuff going on around me. I wish I could see the outcome, but I guess I've hit a balance of pain and compassion. There has to be a reason that I'm still in it. I just don't know why...
Don't mind her threats. We both know that this is what they do. When they're cornered or feel scared, they threaten us. It'll pass.
Yeah, I've let most of them roll off me, but her latest are questioning my core character and those are hard to take and not get defensive and/or angry.
Oh, one more thing. I think its weird that a lot of people, LBH in particular, are trying to flirt or get attention of women. Im not sure if thats good or bad...i find myself wanting that lately too..just like ANY WOMAN...FLIRT WITH ME, MAKE ME FEEL WANTED...but then I realize...youre not my W..and I go sob in the truck =(
What do you think...should we even be entertaining the idea of flirting? Even if its just for fun? Isn't that how it all starts??? idk MCS...i really don't know.
So, I'm gonna have a three-peat of religious posts.
I'm still married, she's still my W. She won't say that, but its how I feel. I still don't know how to 'divorce' in my head my covenant, except for aligning it with 'legal' divorce.
So, when it comes to flirting; I pretty much am just experimenting. I said that I could have walked up to that girl, but I know that I wouldn't.
As I go through this, I see it like when I removed my ring. I experimented one weekend and was a mess. I was reacting to a blow-up from her, was mad, etc. About 4 weeks later, one day I slipped it off; put it on my dresser and went forward with my day. I was initially forcing it and then without even realizing it, I was ready just a little bit later.
This is where I see that if we 'feel' we are forcing something. We probably are (except GAL) and shouldn't be doing it. It will take some practice and as long as we are looking 'up' when we have questions; He doesn't always answer right away, but he'll give us what we need, when we need it.
For me, I see that with whatever the next R would be (wife or not,) if I actively try to pursue it; I'm probably not going to get what I need. But I have faith that whatever I'm meant to do will be put in my path at the right time and right circumstance.
Actually, to wander my thoughts a little. This is one way I gained some compassion for the sitch my W is in. Bad decisions aside; if she was feeling how I'm feeling right now and this OM entered her life and everything seemed to 'click' and also make her feel better about herself; I could see that she could convince herself that this is the path she 'should' be on. She did tell me when she was leaving that "He's giving her the strength to do this" so something like that had to be going through her mind. IDK, it's the toughest thing to separate the voice we want to hear with the voice that we need to hear.
I do feel ya, when you are saying about getting some attention. I caught myself a few weeks ago feeling just that way....everyone was being 'evaluated' in my mind. Like most things, for me it seems to have died down a bit. Most people I talk about my sitch to are women, so that helps a little. However, there's 'other' things that I desire.......but yeah..... That's where the paragraphs above come into play. I'll know when I'm ready for that. For me, I just try joking about it right now with my close friends.
Oh, one more thing. I think its weird that a lot of people, LBH in particular, are trying to flirt or get attention of women. Im not sure if thats good or bad...i find myself wanting that lately too..just like ANY WOMAN...FLIRT WITH ME, MAKE ME FEEL WANTED...but then I realize...youre not my W..and I go sob in the truck =( What do you think...should we even be entertaining the idea of flirting? Even if its just for fun? Isn't that how it all starts??? idk MCS...i really don't know.
I'm in the crowd of LBH who are experimenting with flirting and have even been advocating it on other sitches. It came from my IC who's observing that I hang on to a person who has unequivocally withdrawn her love from me to give it to someone else. Why is it that I find all sorts of excuses to say that I'll go back to her, that I need to be faithful to her? He's making me think about my hidden reasons and one of them is a fear of women, of rejection. I need to test whether I want to reconcile with my WAW because I lack confidence with other women or only because I truly love her.
The fact is that even if I'm advocating it, I've been very bad at flirting and haven't done it in weeks. I just spent a week-end single without any flirting. I realize that I avoid situations where it might happen because I'm afraid. I just don't know what to say or do. This, to me, is something important to think about amongst the reasons why I want to reconcile. NMMNG is another inspiration, reminding us that we live in a world of abundance, while Nice Guys perceive it as a world of shortages.
TLEE86, I think this may apply to you especially as you find your WAW so attractive and probably doubt that you'll ever do as well, so you shouldn't let her go. This is your insecurities, not true love. Realize that beyond her beauty and inner glow, she's also the person who's giving you all this pain and it should count in your assessment of her as a life partner. Don't think of flirting as a way to find validation, but as a way to get some perspective on your true motivations and feelings.
I'll be blunt: another reason why I flirt is that I hardly see myself going back with WAW without having had my fun too (yes, sex). WAW left with another man and a few weeks or months later, moved in with him. Pardon me if I'm crude, but I just know that they had intense and amazing sex for months, like any new, loving relationships do. I can't bear the thought of her coming back and me having waited on the side like a good boy while she had a romantic/sex vacation. Look around at the anger of LBH at the unfairness of their sitches (Maybell, Foolish): it is a very powerful and destructive feeling. Remaining faithful during this period will keep my resentment too high for a long lasting reconciliation. That's my theory. In 2009 when she cheated on my (slept twice with a colleague), she offered me to have a "pass" and I turned it down because I didn't want it and I didn't want to threaten our relationship with unexpected reactions. So it's not like I crave to sleep with other women, but the circumstances are what they are.
Finally, there's no shame in acknowledging that we enjoy and need sex. I was ML 1-2 times a week up until BD and now it's been nothing for six month. Sex is not just a fun thing, like bowling, it's a very strong human drive. In polite society, we all pretend it's a little fun on the side and we don't really mind having it or not, but the fact is that it's a drive that we ignore at our own risks. I know it's disruptive in my life in a way that sex hasn't been in some 12-15 years.
Anyway I hate to sound this way, but it 'feels' like even after 6 months of her leaving, I'm still the closest person to her emotionally. That's scary, but also I think the reason she doesn't want to be around me. She wants to tuck this all away. That's her prerogative, except when it comes to the kids. I would be lying if I said that I don't worry about the kids when their with her. It got better for a while, but I see the same things from earlier on in the sitch starting to pop back up.
This is the same as when I confronted about OM and instead of me getting peeved; gave her the steps to get out of it. She started to, my W started to emerge and then something happened (addiction kicked back in?!?) that made her shut down again.
Oh man brother can I identify with you. Its just so strange how we THINK that they are coming back to be the person we knew, and all of a sudden something triggers them to duck and hide and all of a sudden theire back in their hole scared again and lost in the fog. I really don't know what to say about it, other than ask yourself, what did you do to make her "emerge" again, what were you doing or not doing to make W seem like she's herself again? This is something that I ask myself constantly. Problem is, I cant identify one specific thing, so its a build up of things that you MCS changed to make W notice. Not one single act. So again, what exactly did you do?
Actually, to wander my thoughts a little. This is one way I gained some compassion for the sitch my W is in. Bad decisions aside; if she was feeling how I'm feeling right now and this OM entered her life and everything seemed to 'click' and also make her feel better about herself; I could see that she could convince herself that this is the path she 'should' be on. She did tell me when she was leaving that "He's giving her the strength to do this" so something like that had to be going through her mind. IDK, it's the toughest thing to separate the voice we want to hear with the voice that we need to hear.
Yea, I hear you man. This is what they do, its nothing new, but it continues to surprise us. My W told me today that she needs to "exhaust all options" to "make it on her own" before she can "swallow her pride" and come back this way. I don't even know how to take that besides Im still plan B and she's stuck on the path she's on. Point I'm trying to make is, OM coupled with how WAWs are already thinking, give them the strength and the "determination?" to convince themselves that this is whast best. We have both noticed that our WAWs are unhealthy, mentally, physically etc. But yet they continue to do this because they THINK this is right. We just have to let them run their coufrse, and again, ask ourselves, what are we doing that is responding well to them?
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Mozza, thank you for your post- its completely true. As T2 once told me, and alot of you, i put W on a pedestal because she is the way she is, and I truly don't believe i can do better. But I have to understand, I think we all do, that like you said, this same person that is on a pedestal, is the one causing all this hurt. So do they really deserve to be up there right now? I think we know the answer....
As far as experimenting/fliritng, i think its normal and quite honestly, we need a self esteem boost because we are all crushed right now. idk if thats the right mind set but i think its necessary...
MCS? What do you think?
TLEE,
As far as flirting, the self esteem boost is nice, but I think a good portion of it is just getting noticed and get the heart moving a little faster. It's so weird for me, because I see that I'm so comfortable with who I am (both before and now) that I really feel I dont 'need' the companionship, but am yearning for some of the other things that come with being in a R.
However, I can't shake this feeling to 'rescue' her though and I think, while its a good trait to have, something I need to work through. My IC kind of said something to this affect, but I don't know what it would look like with reducing that personality trait. A one night stand? A trophy GF? A casual friend w/ benefits? I see these things and they just don't seem appealing, I feel like I want a long term R right away, but is that the right thing? IDK, I think that's part of the reason that I'm a little scared to take that step of going beyond looks in a bar. Also, like I said, I'm still married.
--------
As far as what has made W come out of her shell a little, it's another thing I haven't put my finger on. I think it has more to do with OM and other people than it does with me. When I confronted her about OM, I know she was unsure about really what my intentions are. She then shut down when she outright lied to me (a couple times) and I called her on it. Recently, I'm not sure what had happened, maybe I stopped showing I wanted to work on the R? I'm really not sure and then this recent flare up was out of the blue again. She's been picking up and dropping off at the house since Oct., why now are we back to her not wanting to?
So reading about your W, I agree it does seem like you're plan B right now, but at least she's identified that she needs to work through things and then reassess. Not the light in the dark, but its better than my W who still thinks I'm causing her to be unhappy, somehow. I think for you, while being second must really stink, she's a) being honest with you, b) realizes she needs to do work on herself and c) isn't giving a ringing endorsement that her 'new' life is exactly what she wants.
I see our W's similar but different. For you, I think your W is trying to 'find' herself and see where she belongs. For me, I see that my W has years and years of issues that she's never really dealt with from her childhood that overcame her as she got to the point that a trigger got her to see something different.
For me, it's been an interesting week. I'm starting to have these thoughts in my head that maybe I don't want her back if this is how she actually is. Like I said, she's exhibited these traits in somewhat of a healthy balance throughout our M, and I'm not quite sure I could deal with anything like this in the future. I can say, I'm at the point that I about 90% realize there was nothing I could have done to prevent this from happening.
I'm in the crowd of LBH who are experimenting with flirting and have even been advocating it on other sitches. It came from my IC who's observing that I hang on to a person who has unequivocally withdrawn her love from me to give it to someone else. Why is it that I find all sorts of excuses to say that I'll go back to her, that I need to be faithful to her?
Did you vow to be faithful to her? Are you still married? I'm not sure what's confusing about that.
I don't know...perhaps you may be confused on this because SHE is breaking her own marital covenant vows. What may be happening, though, is you are focusing on moving on/settling the score/having fun/playing the "if she did it, then I can do it too" game.
And while you are focused on that you have lost sight of something entirely more important:
you ought to be a man who does what he says and stays true to his word. There is no one on this earth who should have the ability to change that.
Do you want to be an attractive male? Start off by understanding what your core convictions really are, and then stand firm in them no matter what...even if a loved one treats you poorly. That is STRENGTH, and strength is attractive.
He's making me think about my hidden reasons and one of them is a fear of women, of rejection. I need to test whether I want to reconcile with my WAW because I lack confidence with other women or only because I truly love her.
Those two are not mutually exclusive.
Furthermore, if you're experimenting with this idea, why are you advocating it? The fact that you are experimenting means you don't know what the results or consequences will be. This is irresponsible.
TLEE86, I think this may apply to you especially as you find your WAW so attractive and probably doubt that you'll ever do as well, so you shouldn't let her go. This is your insecurities, not true love. Realize that beyond her beauty and inner glow, she's also the person who's giving you all this pain and it should count in your assessment of her as a life partner.
Agreed.
I'll be blunt: another reason why I flirt is that I hardly see myself going back with WAW without having had my fun too (yes, sex). WAW left with another man and a few weeks or months later, moved in with him. Pardon me if I'm crude, but I just know that they had intense and amazing sex for months, like any new, loving relationships do. I can't bear the thought of her coming back and me having waited on the side like a good boy while she had a romantic/sex vacation. Look around at the anger of LBH at the unfairness of their sitches (Maybell, Foolish): it is a very powerful and destructive feeling. Remaining faithful during this period will keep my resentment too high for a long lasting reconciliation. That's my theory. In 2009 when she cheated on my (slept twice with a colleague), she offered me to have a "pass" and I turned it down because I didn't want it and I didn't want to threaten our relationship with unexpected reactions. So it's not like I crave to sleep with other women, but the circumstances are what they are.
And when you think long and hard about it, that seems to you like a path to a healthy reconciliation, relational restoration, and the foundation for a thriving marriage?
-PM
Thank you PatientMan. I responded
on my thread to avoid hijacking MCS' thread.
No problem with the exchange. The two perspectives help me out. I definitely tend to agree with PM, but I understand Mozza's perspective also.
I've had MC today and it was well....interesting. I think I may be done. The constant lies, deception and all the drama is causing me to just get angry. I Feel like W's emotional state has MC nervous (she stopped going twice) about any conflict and states it that way. I feel W is not honest and just says thing that she knows will get me angry or what he wants to hear and then does the complete opposite outside of MC.
I'm thinking about taking a break, but scared that it will give W excuse that I left and also if I leave that I'm not going to be able to hold on any of the feelings of compassion and/or love I have for her.
I see she's struggling, she no longer tells me she's fine/happy/content, but now blames her leaving on me and not that she wanted to do her own thing like she did earlier.
I fear that it feels like W is opening to me emotionally which is a first since BD, but it seems misguided to protect herself. I think she's realized her 'plan of happiness' has not worked out, but hasn't done any introspective work on herself to realize that the reason she left was just selfish, instead pushing the blame back to me (with the 4th or 5th different reason.
I just feel I can't emotionally hold on still that is healthy for me. Any thoughts?
If it is ok I thought that I might chip in on the flirting issue. I dance, sometimes blues dancing with some fantastic dance partners in a dance that lasts for max 3 mins. During that time you are connecting with another human, your focus is on partnering with them. And yes it's flirty.
I see this as intent why do we flirt and connect?
My intent is to make the dance enjoyable, have a better connection, it is never a prelude to a peccadillo, to iniate a sexual encounter, a prelude to intimacy of a carnal kind. It is pleasant nice to meet you, enjoyed dancing with you thank you.
So, dating is different, it is the intention of starting the research for a new partner, a testing of others. Because I am ready for it, because I like the other person, because H is behind me, because I am completely free for a new R. If I am choosing some wonderful new partner then I want to treat them as I would like to be treated With kindness, compassion, interest and friendship. As a person with right to be treated with respect even if it is one date without chemistry. I would like an RD, OD, MCS, Edz, Jim kind of man who has values and appreciates mine. I read on RDs thread he would be looking for the equivalent if his M eventually ceased.
Some try dating but they are unready and decide it is not time for them. They are not truly free and it would complicate their stand for their M.
After this experience with H then it will be a long time before I can reach that space if ever. And yes, I have a high sex drive, up to me to manage that myself. Revenge sex or using someone as a release is not me and really I will not want to be with any man for more than 10 minutes who wants to treat me that way. I feel I am like many women, sex gets better the more involved the R.
My 2 c worth!
V
So..something is happening, I just have no idea what that is.
I think I'm done, but then something pulls me back in. Another weird day of things happening.
First, W and I had a scheduling conflict for the kids for tomorrow. To summarize a conversation over a 3 week time. She sent me a schedule for March, I looked and saw she was switching up the schedule for one day, I didn't want to reply back to cause controversy, we talked about that day and I asked if why she changed that day, she said that it was to keep our days exactly even, we talked about how we shouldn't be doing stuff just to keep the tally even. Caught up? Anyway, we got sidetracked at that point and never resolved who would have the kids that day.
That day is tomorrow (and Friday) I sent her an email today and said that we discussed, but we never resolved that day and I was planning just to use our 'normal' schedule Me Mon-Fri, her Fri-Mon. She replied that I never replied back to her and should have changed it in writing and she was planning on getting them tomorrow.
Well, I sent a long email about how this communication is just not working nor is it fair to the kids. It was long, factual, and passive-aggressive (W, as we discussed, if you want the kids tomorrow to keep the days 'even,' I'm fine with that.) I knew the last piece was a little below the belt, but I was at the point that I didn't care.
So, she replied back that she wasn't going to debate for this week over email and we could use our 'normal schedule,' but her reasoning for wanting that day was because she missed them and hasn't seen them.
I replied back that I agree their normal schedule is best and then said "As I've offered before, if you'd like to call or take them out for dinner, etc. I'm perfectly fine with that"
No response back, but its the first time she's backed down without throwing out accusations. IDK
Then, I got a text from SIL that W knows she talked to me, if you remember; I called SIL the other weekend after W said no one cares for her and that everyone treats her like 'poop.' I was and still am worried about W's emotional state.
SIL said she and I are good; but wanted to give me a heads-up. She said W is angry about "work, life, she doesn't know" and its upsetting SIL how W is texting her. SIL said that she told W that she's going to answer her phone regardless of W's instructions to her. I said that I just don't know what to do and I was worried about W and said, just be there for her. She said she's fine with me, but she's just getting pushed away from W.
So, I'm really worried about W, but I find she throws stuff at me when I'm around that is so accusatory and then I just get upset/angry because of what she says. I want to be there for her, but she's saying stuff that's just not true about how 'I' feel about her.
As I said yesterday, everyone is just telling me to take a break. I think that's what I need to do, but I just feel like I'm leaving W at one of the lowest points since BD. I guess I'm fine with that in most circumstances, if I wasn't worried about her so much emotionally.
I want to take a break from MC because its just slinging stuff my way, but I also think that's why she's doing it, so I give up.
I'm just lost right now......
So this is an interesting post to me in particular because I am literally about to write something very similar. But just some of my observations here...
Well, I sent a long email about how this communication is just not working nor is it fair to the kids. It was long, factual, and passive-aggressive (W, as we discussed, if you want the kids tomorrow to keep the days 'even,' I'm fine with that.) I knew the last piece was a little below the belt, but I was at the point that I didn't care.
Im confused. HOW is this "below the belt?" Because you put "even" i quotations? I think you are readying way too much into it, I don't really know what else was written but that little blurb right there to me isn't below the belt, its...what she wanted. So the truth.
S
As I said yesterday, everyone is just telling me to take a break. I think that's what I need to do, but I just feel like I'm leaving W at one of the lowest points since BD. I guess I'm fine with that in most circumstances, if I wasn't worried about her so much emotionally.
If this is what you feel like you need to do, I think you should do it. Give it a few days, a week, 2 weeks, whatever you need to re-charge and take care of you. I read in your previous post about "saving" your wife. As you know Ive felt this way for a long time but the more days that go on, I really don't care anymore. You know this too..that she needs to do it herself. You're just getting in the way if you try and save her.
Her being at her lowest state...very interesting because I feel that way too. Im honestly not sure what to do about it. Except reiterate that if she's at her lowest, thats probably a GOOD thing, IMO. She has to hit the very bottom before she can come up again and the sooner she hits it, without you being a dickhead or rude to her, the sooner she can start parting through the fog.
Whats going on with her and OM? Is he causing any of this? Is he helping her through any of this...emotional drama she has with herself?
MCS, this looks tough on you. You do seem exhausted because certain things seem to affect you greatly. You probably know that you shouldn't be thinking too much about how she feels and what she thinks, anymore than it affects your relationship with your kids. I guess a little distance might help you to see this more clearly.
I've little experience because my W and I have always been cordial and communicate very, very little, as you know. So I don't have good advice for you. I only want you to know that I'm still reading your thread religiously (ha!), as always.
Mozza, TLEE,
I'll try to hit both of your posts. Long, get things off my chest post here.
Yes, I am exhausted and I feel like I've went backwards from detachingthe last week or so. The reason being is twofold. First, we got to the point that she opened up enough for me to see the pain she is in. However conversely, she's accused me of something that is just untrue and says that's why she's in pain. If there was no OM in the picture, I may be willing to listen on why she's saying what she is saying. But even then it would have been a huge stretch. I think her pain is that A didn't work out (her plan A) and also the grass isn't greener of being alone (her plan B) However what she is saying caused her to leave me (not the A) was smack in the middle of her time she was looking at making her 'move' to get out of the M in order to be with him. Problem is he didn't bite.
So what I think happened was She already had made the hotel plans with OM, (while her and I were still together) and according to her, he supposedly didn't show up (still while we were together.) I think at that point W was in desperation mode to get him to commit and used me as the excuse because I think he probably put a stop to taking their A to the next level. Anyway, I think she fabricated this story of why she was 'leaving' me anyway regardless of his intentions in hopes that he would ditch his GF. It was outlandish and not true, so anyone that knows me, she just stopped talking to them. She had tried to use some different reasons on why she left (MCS didn't help around the house, MCS worked late, etc.) but those folks started to tell her those things were normal and she should try and fix them with me. So since those excuses didnt 'take' she isolated herself from all of our friends (these lies were part of the way that our friends put the pieces together of OM and confronted me about it) So without our friends, She surrounded herself with OM friends who believed what she said because they don't know me. So when she told them her lies, they felt bad for her. If you remember back, that guy came up to me when W was moving out and told me the sitch between W and I was very different than he was led to believe. Well, I told W about that incident last week (when I caught her telling me what she tells everyone else) and she freaked out asking why he would say that to me? I said I don't know, I didn't even know who he was, but he gave me his phone number to call if I needed to talk to someone. Yeah, that got her even madder.
So back to the sitch, I think the A kept going after she left because for him it was no change (he wasn't going to commit regardless) and I think W was doing everything possible to keep him hooked while trying to persuade him to leave. Then I blew everything up when I found out. I think he then got scared and even colder feet and at some point cut it off. I know W was still trying to pursue, and she may still be now. Not sure when it dissolved, but I haven't heard anything about him since Dec. timeframe.
So, obviously the A is not progressing, I think he would have moved in already (her house is right around the corner from his) W is in the withdrawal phase, I think. I also found out that W has moved buildings at work, so they no longer work in the Same building. So, recently when I saw how much of a mess she's in, I tried to reach out to help, but she's blamed it all back on the reason that she told him and his friends she left me. I don't know if she's not being honest with herself or is just using this because it's easier than trying to R or even that she doesn't feel like she could come back. IDK.
So, that's why I'm torn and she's probably confused at my intentions. I say to her I care about her, I'll do what she wants, we're worried about her, but then she'll throw accusations and lies my way and I definitely won't validate them because they are lies but worse yet I'll get angry because I do know what her actual intentions were when she left. I think that's why she's cut almost everyone out, because they don't believe her. So she's isolated herself and she seems to be spiraling down because she has no one to turn to. SIL pretty much said that today in her text, she feels W is pushing he away.
That's why I'm confused. I don't know what's good for me, for her, for the kids, for our M. As I see it, I've got three options:
take a break (friends/family suggestion for me)
keep trying to work the careful line of providing compassion when she's truthful and sterness when she's not (my current approach)
just try full compassion even though I don't believe her and also try not to dispute her lies (MC approach)
Will you tell us what is this outlandish lies she's telling to explain her departure?
Mozza,
I'll get back to your question in a few days. I need to digest a little. Like I said, it seems like something is happening. I'm at a crossroads, I need to choose a path.
I went to IC today and she made me realize that whether W is lying or not, it doesn't matter. She's telling me how she feels/felt for the first time in a long, long time. Does it matter if I agree with it, whether its factual, whether it had to do with me or OM, politics or the weather? She's telling me how she feels (and it seems like I'm the only one she's telling) [Here's a nod to Vanilla for trying to tell me this for the last couple months....love ya, V]
My W didn't share a whole lot with me over the last year (or maybe more,) but that doesn't mean she wasn't 'feeling' things about me whether they were good or bad. I couldn't react to either because she was keeping them bottled up. Our communication was so horrible and I didn't even know it that her feelings of resentment (I don't know exactly why, yet) built up inside her and we got farther and farther apart, especially with OM in the picture.
Anyway, I need some time to process. The next phase is going to be difficult because I'm going to have to trust my W with a bunch of my emotions and try everything possible not to defend myself. I may be at the point that there's so much damage that she's done to me with OM, BD, A, etc. that I'm not going to be able to do that. I don't know, but I pretty much know what the right thing to do is. I need to figure out if I'm ready.
MCS
You don't have to do anything you don't want to do with your emotions!
I believe you are going to have to trust yourself to be non judgemental about W and what she tells you. A little of the RD style, no matter what W says.
She may test you with saying the moon is made of green cheese, just validate and accept her feelings and views and that they could be ok at that time.
Tomorrow they may be equally validly hers and strangely different to the day before. But that is ok. She will test to see if you need to control her and her views.
Let go...........
V
Im confused. HOW is this "below the belt?" Because you put "even" i quotations? I think you are readying way too much into it, I don't really know what else was written but that little blurb right there to me isn't below the belt, its...what she wanted. So the truth
I don't know, I just see I put it in there and I knew that it would cause her to respond defensively. She did, by saying it was because she missed the kids. When I replied back that she could call them or take them out to dinner, I felt like I softened it a little.
But your right and V says above, I'm basing my feelings in her reactions. I need to stop that, but need to figure it out while still validating.
I wrote it In a draft post I deleted, but I think that my WW is turning into a WAW. I almost want to ask her if it was 'done' but I've been very careful with any reference, so I wont.
I did say this past week that I feel like I'm feeling like I'm holding some of her lies. She said, like what? I said that OM's GF doesn't know what has been going on. W said "As far as I know, she knows what happened." I said "do you still talk to her?" W said "yeah, I still talk to her." I then said "W, then there's no way she actually knows what was going on" W just looked at me.
But it doesn't matter with the exception of trying to figure out what W's motives and state is right now. Like I said, I'm debating taking a break or trying to be the one that W can 'talk to.' It seems like she's trying, but I get angry about some of the stuff she's saying and shut down. Like V says, I need to let go of that, but I want to know for myself that I'm ready to do that. It's tough to sit there and take some of the things she says whether she actually feels,that way or is just trying to hurt me, IDK.
I think I'm going to try and focus this weekend on not thinking about the sitch and see what happens. MC isn't u til Tuesday
This is germane, but not necessarily directed at you - it's just a reminder:
If you can't stick to your plan while validating, then don't validate.
It might seem cold, harsh, and closed off, but you ought to have a long-term plan in place and you ought to do everything in your power to set that plan up for success. Validation is a great tool, but it should not be allowed to compromise a larger goal.
-PM