So my last thread filled up but at least we cleared up some confusion about different types of clothing
the old thread is here
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2525449&page=1the last thread bought some significant change in my situation. My wife completed the purchase of her new house and moved out. we have signed various agreements relating to finances and childcare. Although we are still legally married this is now only in the legal sense and how i feel.
I now need to get on with the next phase of my life(mk8)in the knowledge that during this phase my relationship with my wife is as coparents to our children.
Its said a lot but worth repeating, I really am grateful to you for reading my threads and posting your support and advice
thank you
Just quick journal on whats happened since the flood.
I picked up my kids last night from my Ws house, the handover was cordial but brief. W wasnt keen to engage in conversation and the kids were a bit over tired.
Had a really nice day with them today. played around the house. read S1 lots of stories, played games with D3 while S1 napped. had decent food all day and a lot of laughter and fun.
A friend and his wife (the kids godparents) came over today to play with them for a couple of hours so that was nice and they were entertained by the flood disaster
once the kids were in bed and the domestics sorted I spent a couple of hours on the sofa in front of the fire reading a book.
so a decent day
Sounds like a good day to me
And a glass of vino?
Vanilla
Hi jim. You last sentance sounds full of PMA. Well done mate a new chapter in life and often is there a twist in the last chapter Take care RD
No vino tonight. Drinking wine is a new (post BD) thing for me - I never really liked it but felt i was missing out on the social aspect so i've been teaching myself to drink it.
My PMA is doing ok - I think its the reduction in tension. I just need to stop my mind wandering to making guesses about what my wife is up to.
So a couple of days ago i posted a draft of a letter that i wanted to send my wife, as much as anything it is because we are now moving to a much more distant relationship and the massive stress and anxiety that went with the getting the agreements resolved is now done.
I've thought about it a lot and I do still want to send it (give it tomorrow night when i drop the kids off). I dont expect it to achieve anything other than to express how I feel and sincerely express my hopes for her future happiness. When i read it back there were a couple of minor bits so below is the updated version
Wife,
I cannot begin to fully understand what you have gone through and what you have felt these past 4 months and I am only now beginning to understand how you felt in the months/years leading up to your decision to leave. I do know that I have tried to support your decision as best I can through what has been the hardest and most emotionally charged time of my life. I do also recognise that it may not have felt that way for you and so for any part I have played that has made it feel harder or more difficult then I am truly sorry.
I want you to know that I have always loved you and that your happiness means the world to me. I would have done anything to support you in finding that happiness and to make our marriage work; it will be the single greatest regret of my life that it took you leaving to make me understand what you needed from me and the ways in which I could and gladly would have done better.
As much as i would like to change the past and do what I now know I should have, I know I cannot. Instead I will respect your decision and do my best to honour the time we had together by being the best parent I can to our children and being the man you always deserved and always hoped I could be.
I wish nothing but happiness for you in your new home.
With love, always
Jim
I'm concerned that its pursuing and that it will seem controlling. I'm also concerned that she will see it as blaming even though i dont think it is.
Ultimately sending this is probably more about my needs (to apologise for any hurt i've caused, and a desire to show empathy) than her needs which right now are for space and distance as she wants to move on without me.
I guess i'm just looking for thoughts
Hi Jim - as I said before, I think it's a lovely letter. I have made a few wording suggestions below (feel free to ignore.) I'm not sure this is the best time to send it, but it's your decision mate, and if you will feel better doing so, go for it, and best of luck to you. x
Wife,
I can't begin to fully understand what you have gone through and what you have felt these past 4 months. I'm only now starting to understand how you felt in the months and years leading up to your decision to leave. I've tried to support your decision as best I can through what has been the hardest and most emotionally charged time of my life. I recognise it may not have felt that way for you and for any part I've played that made it feel more difficult, I am truly sorry.
I want you to know that I have always loved you and that your happiness means the world to me. I would have done anything to support you in finding that happiness and to make our marriage work. It may be the single greatest regret of my life that it took you leaving to make me understand what you needed from me and what I could and gladly would have done better.
As much as I would like to change the past, I know I can't. Instead I will respect your decision and do my best to honour the time we had together by being the best parent I can to our children and being the man you always deserved and always hoped I could be.
I wish nothing but happiness for you in your new home.
With love, always
Jim
Personally I would not send it yet. There will be an appropriate time.
it is a lovely letter.
V
My wife has just picked up the kids to take them back to her place. S1 was really upset as he doesnt understand. He just kept trying to hold on to me crying 'Daddy'
he did the reverse when i picked them up on friday. My wife said 'he's confused but he'll get used to it'. He will and i didnt need to be told but if it bothers her that he has to be put through this then she does a really good job of hiding it.
anyways the kids and I had a really nice day today, a bit of a mundane journal really but in someways i want to dispel the image that i'm a wreck.
good getting up routine and played a bit before swimming. arrived at wifes exactly at the agreed time (someone was hiding upstairs which i found amusing but didnt acknowledge - 99% certain it was PF)
good swimming lesson with D3, got back and D3 helped me make a tuna pasta bake for lunch. W dropped S1 back about an hour later and declined the offer of a coffee. took the kids to the park for a bit, had lunch, and then played for a bit.
while S1 had his nap, D3 and I made flapjacks and did lots of craft stuff so that my whole kitchen is covered in glitter now.
then just had a relaxed afternoon playing some more etc. Wife arrived to find me and the children playing with the giant duplo dinosaur we built. (she was early, untalkative and eager to leave as quickly as possible)
I gave her some of the flapjacks (they were a bit dry), a new home card that the kids made for her and the letter. I said to her that i tried to do a card (which i did) but struggled to get the words right so wrote a letter.
No idea whether she will even read it let alone respond in anyway. In truth if she reacts it will more likely be with indignation and outrage about how i dont get how 'shocking' my behaviour is, or that I made the move as difficult at possible. on the plus side she has plenty of poisonous people around her to help with that.
From my perspective what i said was sincere and genuine and as close to giraffe language as i think i could manage. For Jim mk8 that is important (part of my new rules) regardless of whether she has jackal ears - or eyes in this case.
So now for a fun filled evening of ironing and getting ready for a week at work.
47 hrs until i see my kids
159 hrs until i see my wife
Hi Jim. Seems like a good time with kids. , which is all mportant , Im glad for your sake you gave her the letter because it came accross as something you really wanted to do If it has an impact or not , time might tell but it's off your chest. A good friend of mine stresses that this is a marathon and not a sprint. Enjoy the ironing !!!! And 47 hours will fly by.
Take care. RD
So Jim, How's the living space coming along? And the head space?
I inherited a bunch of plants a couple of weekends ago so my balcony is becoming a bit of a sanctuary. Now I'm on the look out for a Buddha water feature for good measure!
If my estimates are right, the 47hrs must be nearly up?
Must research this head space.
Sounds very interesting indeed..........
Gan, I have plans this year to visit the Eden Project in the UK, which I am led to believe is amazing for plants.
V
So my kids are sleeping peacefully in their beds and although its only an hour or so between picking them up from nursery and them going to sleep and they are both shattered during that time I loved every second of it. I have them until i drop them off at nursery on thursday morning.
no contact from my wife since she collected the kids on sunday evening and to be honest if it werent for the fact i have to check a financial thing with her i doubt there would be any until i see her on sunday. I have a rational block here in that NC is supposed to help me detach AND its supposed to help bring her back - Dont get that because surely NC helps her to detach more and move on more (not that i'm convinced there is a more for her to go to)
And i am still hung up on the fact she has repeatedly described me as abusive. I mean thats really harsh and I dont think fair but i do understand its how she feels.
I like the sound of your balcony ganb8te, it sounds nice and relaxing, particularly as i'd quite like to be able to sit outdoors at the moment.
In answer to your questions
The headspace stuff is going pretty well though the last couple of days i've really drifted off during it and not caught myself - not even sure where i drifted to but my mind wasnt racing which is a good thing so it seems to be having some benefits (have found myself talking about it a chunk on these boards, along with giraffes and jackals)
I'm waiting on a few bits of furniture to arrive then the lounge will look different (not massively but enough). the biggest thing at the moment is that without the family pictures my walls are all pretty bare but at the moment i cant afford to do anything about that at the moment. It will be a gradual thing i guess.
The eden project is a nice day out and the different biomes are quite impressive for the variety of stuff thats in there.
Hey Jim
How about some canvas, paints for the kids and some cheap wood to stretch as a frame should be able to knock out some biggish frames for about £8 each..
Hey Jim
How about some canvas, paints for the kids and some cheap wood to stretch as a frame should be able to knock out some biggish frames for about £8 each..
Was just about to suggest same. The 99p shop near me had a few the other week and I bought some for H grandchildren. Hand and foot print for the littlest one. Enormous fun.
V
I think that's a great idea. When my H D, and SS was little, they did this. H got some big canvases and some bright paints. He would dip SS's feet into the paints and he would swoosh them around on the canvas in different colours, same with the hands. Ended up with bold splashes of colour and the odd discernable hand & foot print - lovely.
Charity shops often have cheap printed canvases too, or maybe a nice board with some printed pics of the kids that you can add new photos too - or a board that has some of their art pinned onto it?
Or make a papier mache mooooose!
Or....IKEA has some pretty cheap frames. To fill then, go to the UK zazzle website and order cheapo poster(s) of something cool. I have a couple of framed vintage travel posters on my wall. The look great and are meaningful as they are places I've been to. (Oh and travel is a favourite GAL activity of mine)
I had the kids art thought as well, its a really good idea but I'll admit I'm nervous about the mess. Think I'll pre run a bath...
I love travelling - cash permitting I'd get some of my holiday photos blown up but I like the vintage travel poster idea. Also reminded me I have a loft full of old film posters (late 90s rather than proper vintage).
I also found amazon has a reseller called 'wall fillers' so I've ordered a massive (1.6m x 1m) brightly coloured abstract canvas for my bedroom. It was about £20 so we'll see if it's any good.
Its chucking it down with rain here and I now really want to go in holiday....
Another moose would just get confusing. Especially if it got loose about this goose.
Never done it but at basic office supply places over here you can get your photos blown up and printed on a canvas. No frame needed. They're surprisingly affordable.
They ain't too bad here individually, depending on size and finish so I expect over the next couple of months I can get a few done. Just need to be patient with it.
To be honest it will probably take me a while to narrow down which ones I want up.
And I have some cracking moose photos For consideration.
Dept stores too. And online you can order pics on canvas.
Why not a moose makes about as much sense as anything?
Rhc xw stated abuse too, but the poor Man is far too gentle I suspect, even his kids bully an run over him. It's all
Sat it loud jim
S
P
E
W!
W
A
W style
I am a mooooooose.
(sorry had to say it)
Yup jim if the weather is moving up country you can look forward to hail later, yay...
I'll be interested in that wall space filler by the way, would like something like that for either over the bed or the landing space upstairs, way too much magnolia on display right now but dont want to create too much of a "thunderbirds tracey island" effect with pics of s, was thinking about canvas prints of my panorama pics but theyd work out over £70 for the size i'd need. Charity / recycling shops and gumtree are looked at regularly but nothing I like so far.
IKEA?
when in doubt......
V
Now that would make a brilliant picture!
V
Dunelm Mill are pretty reasonable for prints/canvases too...
I had a good day with the kids yesterday and I liked it (we made pancakes, did sticking and glittering, turned the lounge furniture into a pirate ship etc etc.)
The cheap canvas of the internet arrived and looks alright though i've not put it up yet.
Mindfulness practice is getting tricky - i'm losing focus and wandering off in my thoughts so need to up the discipline a bit)
I texted my wife last night about something D3 was doing - didnt get a response but didnt expect one. my mind did immediately jump to imagining her being cuddled up with OM1 though.
I had cold and business like email about money from her late tuesday (to my work email after i'd left so didnt get it til this morning). zero warmth just 'the bill is XXXXX so you need to give me XXXXX'
I responded with a more chatty and friendly response (how are you? the kids were great yesterday, hope your having a good week etc.)
Not sure if this is the right thing to do but i dont want to meet cold indifference and hostility with cold indifference and hositility. I'd rather be warm and welcoming. I dont think it was pursuit.
I thought for the most part I had dealt with my anger and let a lot of it go and to an extent I feel I have but i realised that i still have a lot of anger about a sense of injustice. Not the decision so much although that upsets me and the sense of powerlessness isnt great either. The anger is about what she is saying and the way she describes me.
The 'He just so horrible' and the 'He's controlling, abusive and mean' really hurt and i'm offended by the 'Money grabbing little £$%£' - basic maths shows this last one just isnt true - anxious about financial security yes, bit too envious of other peoples wealth, yes but not money grabbing.
And no matter how I slice it i dont think that questioning statements that simply dont make logical sense (and/or are outright lies) is abusive. If i'm wrong about that then please someone give me a 2x4 to the face because if it is then at the moment my wife is right when she says 'He just doesnt get how shocking his behaviour is'
So yes turns out i'm still quite angry about this.
Evening Jim. Funny enough I just read something on someone else's thread about self-justification and your post reminded me of this. The WAS has to believe that you are pretty awful in order to justify their own 'shocking' behaviour to themselves. So they convince themselves that you really are the pits....and tell you so. The alternative is to look within and not feel too happy with what they see....ouch, no thanks. We have to remember that their 'truth/narrative' about our sitches is totally different to ours.
I can see that the lack of warmth from your W must have hurt. You decided to send her the letter you wrote....and (whilst we all try not to have expectations) - did you maybe have some at some level, and that makes her response harder?
I think your response was fine. I don't think it helps to respond to cold with cold - but you don't want to tip into pursuit either, so the best way is pleasant, helpful, mention the kids, and that's about it.
It's not surprising you feel angry. Your W has been unfaithful, you've just dealt with the separation and she's being cold...it gets to you. Before Xmas I remember really struggling with the injustice of our sitch, and I had some helpful posts in response, which did make me feel better.
It isn't a 'fair' situation - but you'll get through it and grow as a result. The main thing with your anger is to release it in some way, but of course not in the direction of your W, which you know already.
You're doing really well Jim :-)
Thanks Toots,
genuinely i didnt have any expectation on the letter getting any response - to be honest i'm pushing my expectations to think she even read it.
I expected the cold email but it still hurts. I was also hoping to have moved the money before she asked for it but its one of those things.
Last week even with all the move going on my wife was a bit more chatty and on move day reached out a little about how difficult it was.
A saturday night drinking with her poisonous friend and she is back to barely civil. between her need to make me the bad guy and the poison that is her friend and sister its quite easy to make even a friendly hello seem mean and controlling.
I dont forget that this whole situation stems from my atrocious reaction to a couple of situations a few years ago and so I do understand where her fear came from and how it warped her perception of our interaction, I just know that the fear wasn't rational - but when is fear.
As for my anger I'm trying to find different releases but the big problem is that i got really cross with D3 over nothing in particular this morning (she wouldnt put her tights on). I felt awful and apologised to her but its not fair that my misdirected anger upset my little girl. Its just not on, but until that happened i thought i had processed and released my anger better than it seems i have.
I say this again jim, but my h thought one of my mates was a poisoned friend.
Who had r issues, nothing can be further from the truth in my case. Perhaps her friend is batting for the m, hence your wife becomes more negative after a session with her.
Self justification baiting to make you the bad guy?
That explaination fits too!
H was/is and always will be paranoid to a huge degree.
unfortunately when I was still able to see messages I saw more than enough to know that they most definitely werent batting for the marriage. Both SIL and PF were encouraging pursuit of OM1 within 10 days of BD.
Oh yes and SIL has repeatedly suggested my W gets the police involved
I had cold and business like email about money from her late tuesday (to my work email after i'd left so didnt get it til this morning). zero warmth just 'the bill is XXXXX so you need to give me XXXXX'
For the record, that's how I communicate with my W about finances, yet you know how much I yearn for her. It means nothing, but that she's trying to deal with the finances. I would be annoyed by chatty emails in return. It's like using the business channel to tell jokes. The chatty stuff belongs elsewhere (including later in time).
I'm reading NMMNG, thinking of you and how it was very revealing to you. I'm not halfway through yet, but I'll post a reaction once I'm done, likely next week. May I ask if you've done the exercises? Have you changed something in real life?
I have no idea whether she is annoyed by me being chatty, given what she has said before i suspect she is, at the same time i want to end the feeling i've had for a long time (since well before BD) that i have to walk on eggshells. I probably didnt but i felt like it and it was my conflict avoidance.
I guess i think that no matter what i say or do she will get angry - it seemed that way for the last few months. Since she will interpret whatever I say or do however she chooses to, I felt it was better to go with the approach that thinking back i would rather have had.
Dont know, maybe I have this all wrong....
As for NMMNG. It was really revealing to me and i'm glad i read it. I heard of it a few years ago but for some stupid reason over the title i didnt read it (felt i was too nice and didnt want to be not nice). wish i had. It does make an uncomfortable read for me though - especially as of late i've been having a lot of 'I wasnt that bad' thoughts and NMMNG takes me straight back with a solid 'yes you were' (the bits on the victim triangle and enmeshing nice guys particularly)
As for the exercises some of them like the thought based ones I've done the others i've more tried to incorporate into my DB plan. A few are a bit more tricky as they would involve a R conversation with my XW.
In terms of changes then they are a work in progress and at the moment about the way i view things or express things. trying to ditch expectations, trying to see the positives and be grateful, trying to express my feelings rather than my thoughts. I wouldnt say any of this have stuck permenantly yet though
Jim, seems you aren't alone on the title. First review on Amazon says "No More Mr. Nice Guy is a GREAT book However, the title is misleading, the purpose of the book is to boost confidence and help men reclaim power in their lives, it does not make men jerks."
Jim, Mozza - if you are keeping track of Zelda and Calibri's threads you will see the people pleasing thing comes up a bit (and I suspect it weighs in on my sitch too). Do you think it would be a useful book for us ladies to read? e.g. would it help us do things differently so that H might behave differently in response? Would it be a good read for a WAH? (not saying I'll give it to him, just maybe make the recommendation if the moment came up)
Hi G
I read that (and anything else I could scoop up) last august. The principles are helpful, I've always had no issues with commitment (the opposite in fact) but huge issues with confrontation which slots me into this category.
Its an interesting read and did partially inform some 180s in my behaviour and conversations with w as we are now during trying to stand/db.
During my M I dont think it would have made that much difference as the one thing I absolutely know is pushing at my w gets nowhere...fast.
I already knew that standing firm works (eventually so pick those battles wisely as you'll be waiting a loooong time) but attempting to push for a specific goal when shes decided otherwise, nope, think wildcat in a corner w would just go through me first (I know she tried at least twice).
The information on responding differently could prove useful, especially if the person in question is "open" to looking at how they're truly behaving otherwise its very easy to just say nah im not doing that.
Ganb8te, Personally I think yes it would but then i'm as interested in trying to figure out what has been going on in my W's head as I am in mine (more success with mine but thats not perfect)
Although its written gender specifically i think a lot of the ideas (covert contracts as an example) are gender neutral. I would be hestitant to read it from the perspective of trying to 'diagnose' our WAS' but i think there is a lot that can be taken from it both in terms of increasing our understanding and by looking to say 'Do i do that?'
but i think there is a lot that can be taken from it both in terms of increasing our understanding and by looking to say 'Do i do that?'
This.
The open mind then says ok, is that right and if not what can I do differently where the book is useful. If not you get the Nah not me.
Do you think it would be a useful book for us ladies to read? e.g. would it help us do things differently so that H might behave differently in response? Would it be a good read for a WAH? (not saying I'll give it to him, just maybe make the recommendation if the moment came up)
Yes, it could be an interesting read for you, if you feel that your H might have been a people pleaser. I have also been thinking of my W's behavior as I read the book, noting that certain things also apply to her. I would not however recommend it to your H until you're deep into piecing. How would you feel if he recommended a book to you that would help explain your behavior?
Regarding ^^ this Mozza, totally agree with you there.
One time early last year, when my W was starting the "new job, independance, weight loss, tattoo, new car" phase, we had a small argument one day that spiralled. I suggested to her that maybe she was having a MLC, or that maybe she was peri-menopausal...which I'd read about on another forum as a possible reason to her reactions toward me and actions at the time. There was a book on that I looked at, which I suggested to her more because it was an interesting read, but also because there was so much that fitted with her behaviour...
This conversation did not go down well with W!
She did not read the book.
Barry.
There's aso a NMMNG forum on which there is move afoot to set up a peer support group for European readers.
Mozza, Barry - yes, I understand re not pushing it on my H. He surprised me at the last meet up though. When I said the range of things I was doing to find my way through this (including books) he said "maybe you can send me the details of the book later". Not sure if that was a sincere request or not but I followed through and left it there.
Just popping in to say hello and let you know I am still reading and keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.
I was out of town last week and just now getting around to catching up and commenting. I know your sitch changed recently and just wanted to say I'm sending positive vibes your way.
So i've had just under 2 weeks of actual seperation now and although its not been zero contact its been very low contact.
since dropping the kids of at nursery on thursday I had a brief logistics text message exchange on sunday about the kids swimming then saw my wife for two short handovers. her messages seemed cold, I'm still trying to be pleasant and friendly (like saying good morning) but i take mozza's point.
I did get two hours or so with S1 on sunday and it was brilliant - he was in a great little mood and just wanted to play (and he gives the best hugs). I only saw D3 for a couple of minutes but got lovely hugs and kisses from her as well.
At the handover she was very brief and when i dropped S1 she was keen to get rid of me. the sum total of what she said to me was 'here is D3's Swimming stuff' and 'D3 come say goodbye to Daddy' and a couple of other comments which roughly translated as 'please leave now'
Her mum was up staying with my W but didnt say anything or acknowledge I was there at first until I stuck my head round the corner and said hello and wished her well for her upcoming operation.
So not much interaction but if anything I would say she seems even more angry (at me?) than she did before. All the non-verbals suggested this and the verbals seemed desperate for me to go. I was there maybe 5 minutes max. most of which was having a quick cuddle and chat with D3.
On non W related front, my exercise plans are still dented due to not yet healed foot issues but I am doing Yoga everyday (15 to 20 mins). Also using the Headspace app most days which i find very calming for my mind even if i'm not present in the moment enough yet
I assembled my new lounge furniture and bought some lamps to make my lounge feel nice and homely and overall the house is coming along. I'm going to pick up some blank canvases on my way home so that i can do hand and footprints with the kids on wednesday.
little bits of sorting here and there and slowly i'm getting organised into my new living arrangements though i did get lazy and just spent yesterday afternoon on my xbox.
I've also done a whole bunch of home cooking so my freezer is filled with portions of stuff thats all delicious. Finances are substantially tighter than they were so need to get a bit more savvy with my shopping habits - its more about restoring old habits though than learning new ones.
So all in all i'm doing pretty good. Its just, as ganb8te said on her thread, i missing someone to share life's adventures with.
The question of the day though is should i be no contact (except emergencies and logistics) or should i try to keep a warm channel of communication with my W open as in friendly texts and nice messages about what the kids have been doing?
Its worth saying I've no idea whats happening with OM1 but i got the sense over christmas that had cooled somewhat (on his end again)
So all in all i'm doing pretty good. Its just, as ganb8te said on her thread, i missing someone to share life's adventures with.
Well you know Im with you on that one. Still as Ive been told best to get the cake baked properly then worry about the icing (mmmm icing)
Youre pretty up to date with my sitch mate. I'd advice keeping the lines of communication open, immediately jump on any texts re kids and keep w in the loop on anything relating to them asap, keep links (e.g. if you are friends on fb but dont get too wound up in that - it can drive you nuts) and if theres an opportunity stay warm and validate. In your case there is (may still be - sounds like there may be room for doubt?) Om so that does put a different slant on it.
Sounds like you're doing really well mate, make that space your own with the kids and create an atmosphere you can relax in and create a routine, I found that helped immensely early on having long "dead" time is when i started to slump.
Jim - another fan here....I also think you're doing so well. Bearing in mind it is only a couple of weeks since your S, you've really made lots of progress - and lots of positive stuff underway.
In respect of your W, I agree it's helpful to keep channels open. Be the man you want to be going forwards in your communications with her. At the moment, your R is about good co-parenting - and you can liaise with your W in a helpful and positive way. If she responds with something pleasant, or initiates something nice, you can respond in kind.
But I wouldn't be OTT with the 'chirpy' contact, and if your W seems to be getting annoyed, you can always pull back to minimal, but helpful & pleasant.
Sounds great with the cooking. When I was at M&Ds, and looking forward to a place of my own, that was one of the things I was looking forward to...and as you say, great for the budget!
Morning All (GMT anyway)
So i just want to run this past you guys in case I am being over the top with my chirpyness
So last night I had two texts from her (back to back) which were all very business like (I read them as cold but they were just functional)
basically it was (minus a bit of extra detail
You need to cancel XXXX, I dont have the details, I've paid XXXX up to 20th. You'll need to sort it out after that as I dont have a number anymore. I'll forward you the number for XXXXX, You need to contact XXXX and either cancel or move membership. Its still showing on the joint account.
I responded (about 3hrs later)
Hey. No worries, I'll take care of it. If you think of anything else let me know. Hope you and the kids are good.
the other messages I've continued to use the odd phrasing and silly names for things that we always used when we were together. Its tiny interactions and really nothing but these are now the scraps i have to work with and i'd like to get this phase right from the outset
On other things i think given some of the conversations that have gone on recently around here i found myself asking the question about dating and whether its something i want to start thinking about. A phrase i've heard a couple of times that has been rattling around my head is that 'the best way to move on is to move on'. got mixed feelings on all this
Hi mate
Sounds cliche (and in our "rebuild" sitches ridiculously oversimplified as whos that?) but be yourself and dont overanalyse. I'd say something like "No problems will do. Give the kids a hug from me.". I known what you mean about the odd word here and there, personally it depends on my mood, if im in one of my "ed" moods (you know the ones from my threads!) then I may write something silly because everyone is getting something that day but not based on pet names or our relationship.
W suprised me the other day by talking about at least 6 points from our past when we had a lot of fun or when we met. Was happy about that but didnt overreact as it meant it was running through her mind at least and I wasnt just the devil incarnate but when she walked out initially and i tried that (pre-db) I would get emails and letters on why everything was my fault.
It's a fine line the UN would be proud to walk correctly at times!
Dating, mmm.
I think quite a bit of that chat is going on in my thread matey. My own thinking in *my* sitch is no, at least not yet.
That's not because I have hopes that w will sweep back to me next week or because I don't want someone in my life, if I'm honest I do, it's because I'm not in a position to be completely open to a new person without knowing if I'd want to run back if w did come back into the picture.
If its a light friendship (or a serious friendship) thats fine but anything more wouldnt be fair to my sensibilities insofar as another persons feelings - if that makes sense.
I also need to know that Im beyond codependency and my 180s (for me) are completely embedded and part of me as I dont want to repeat the mistakes (on my side) that got me here if I head into a new relationship.
I dont know if I will be ready tomorrow, next week, next month or in a years time I just know, not today
Hey Jim,
Sounds like you're doing well! Good for you.
In regards to the text reply - pretty good I think. I like Edz' alternate version, too.
I think my reasons for holding back on dating are similar to Edz'. My door is still wide open to H so dating is problematic on 2 levels: (1) It wouldn't be fair to the other person, and (2) it would be that much more confusing for my poor little head if H were to want back in. I do think that I can do the work to get me over these hurdles but for now I am holding off. This logical self is fighting against my emotional self that deeply misses connection and affection though.
This logical self is fighting against my emotional self that deeply misses connection and affection though.
Absolutely this ^^^^ G.
Hi Jim, I'm also in the no dating camp. For you, it is still very early days following your S, and you may be best to heal alone for a while first. Maybe focus on friendships and doing things you enjoy doing (but stopped when you M.) I also think it may be unfair to someone else, when you would like to save your M if possible.
I think for me, if I know we are definitely D (ie: not just that he has filed, but I have decided that's what I want) I may start dating. Another part of me thinks - you know, I may not be interested in seeking a partner for a good while yet.
I understand the missing connection and affection. It is good to have intimacy in our lives, but I think we need to be 'whole' first...
On other things i think given some of the conversations that have gone on recently around here i found myself asking the question about dating and whether its something i want to start thinking about. A phrase i've heard a couple of times that has been rattling around my head is that 'the best way to move on is to move on'. got mixed feelings on all this
Jim, I had a dating conversation with my IC yesterday. She keeps reminding me that dating doesn't mean walking down the aisle. And she also reminds me that talking to someone is not dating. In other words, she's encouraging me to get out there, make new friends, and some of them will be single guys. It doesn't have to mean anything at all, other than I have a new friend that I can have a conversation with. Baby steps.
BTW, I haven't done that yet.
I'm in the pro-flirting camp. I make a conscious effort to talk to people, especially new women, and try to get an interesting conversation going. In my case, my IC thinks I'm in such a panic over the S in part because I'm convinced that I can't ever find someone else as good as my W. I know you have the same issue because you said this exact thing here. I can already attest that I'm getting better, more confident at it and that it has given me some relief over my sitch, or at least something else to think about on the romantic front.
As for "dating", it depends what is meant by that. If it's going for coffee or dinner with new people, I've absolutely no problem with that. If it's about have a one-night-stand, I still think it's defensible (will I be moderated or banned for this??). Oh and I'll say it: I even think LBS in situation like ours (WAS is gone, moved on with someone else, D proceedings, etc.), it's ok to date more regularly. I'd make sure the other person knows I'm separated though and that it wasn't my choice. As you know, my view of marriage is less constraining than that of many around here.
I seem to be fairly alone around here in thinking that it's not unfair to the other person, even if you're still "available" to your WAS. Everyone has a history and new relationships aren't life contracts. We feel each other out, get to know each other, seek compatibility, etc. It fails in a large majority of the cases, by the way. I wouldn't mind dating someone who's not completely over their ex, as long as I know about it.
Anyway, I'll probably be told that I have low morals. Also, I lack experience and I keenly observe that vets are strongly against it, and so is MWD. Maybe experience will make me fall in their camp.
Also I've noticed here (and from US collegues who have come over to the uk) there's a different perspective on what dating entails (at least in my age group - no idea in the 20 somethings to 30 somethings!)
The (unattached) guys I know from the US regularly go on 3-5 dates a month often with different women and just grab dinner/movie/bowling/trip out etc. Whilst my experience on dating is now 16 years out of date I tend to think of it more as one person you're looking to spend time with.
Maybe I was always just sheltered
Thanks for the thoughts and viewpoints.
I'm not doing anything yet nor am I desperate to do so.
So I asked the question that of some others that if I knew 100% that my wife was never coming back or that it would be minimum 3+ years, what would I do differently and that led me to I would do everything I could to move on.
That led me to what's the best way(s) to move on which started a thought process. I'm still at work so haven't got time to elaborate now but I had some mixed thoughts in this which I would like to share later.
I think dating is a different animal for all of us. I have no desire to date at this point because I was so taken by surprise and hurt by XH. Not that I think all men are like him, I just prefer to work on myself for awhile.
I don't have anything against meeting new folks and enjoying a cup of coffee (well, it would have to be tea, since I don't drink coffee, but I digress) with someone or the like, but I, for me, am just not ready to pursue trying to date and meet single men and the like.
If/when I am ready, I will think about it, but for now, it is just me and the dog and I am good with that.
Hi some quick scripting help please if you dont mind.
So i've got a letter saying my wife has put in a redirection for all the kids post. I also suspect she has started changing their address for all kinds of things (and she has changed her name back to her maiden name but that is less important)
a few issues for me with this:
1) redirected post means my family cant send the kids cards/presents etc.
2) if she is changing address that jeopardises my D3s school application
3) it may impact on custody later on
4) she didnt discuss it with me at all
5) It P***** me off (least important but true)
So i need to text her about this and would like some help to get the right tone/script
what i have is
Hi. I've got a letter saying about post redirection for you and the kids. redirecting their post would mean that my family cant post them anything directly. I'll contact royal mail tomorrow to sort that out. In future, please would you let me know about things like this before making any changes. Thanks
Ouch
Well you know all about me and postal redirects. Are you on 50/50 time with the kids?
does the script seem ok?
as for the split, I get 6 nights out of 14. I agreed to this right after BD (still in shock stage in she took advantage) but actually its ok in terms of Days (rather than bedtime and nursery runs) we both get 4 days in 14.
Biggest issue is that the divide means the longest she goes without the kids is about 56 hours, the longest i go is 128 hours
and yes, there are worse things to find out via redirection notices.....
Hi. I've got a letter saying about post redirection for you and the kids. redirecting their post would mean that my family cant post them anything directly. I'll contact royal mail tomorrow to sort that out. In future, please would you let me know about things like this before making any changes. Thanks
How about...Hi, I've got a letter confirming post redirection for you and the kids. Redirecting their post would mean that my family can't post them anything directly. I'll contact Royal Mail tomorrow to sort that out (what are you going to do, ask for the kids to come off...do you need to be more specific here?) Going forwards, please can we discuss things like this before we make any changes? Thanks.
Jim - sorry, that would be painful to receive.
Playing devils advocate - so what that your family can't send things direct? Why should that worry W?
I'm with Toots - I'm not sure what you mean by taking care of it with Royal Mail. Can a person be registered at 2 addresses?
Could you say (not sure that text message is best format): I got a leter confirming post rediection for you and the kids. I would like for kids to retain an address at my house so my family can continue to post to them directly. They are after all with me more than 40% of the time. Going forward, can we please discuss things before we make changes. Thanks.
I like g's idea above. Been thinking about it here. Any post to one of you will need to be sent c/o Jim or w. If you have a mainly equal split its tricky. In my case as you all know w just did it before she went receiving it WAS my BD lucky me..
Thanks for the input. the taking care of it is telling royal mail to not do the redirection. They wrote to me as a security precaution.
when a redirection is in effect all post to the named recipients is redirected. without it people can send letters to whatever address they like (mine or hers) with it anything sent to the kids at my house (cards, presents, school letters, medical letters) would all go to my wifes house regardless of the address on them.
It wont worry her in the slightest but to an extent this is a boundary issue for me (and thats without the mind reading i could do about trust and control) - I shouldnt allow her to just make changes without agreement nor should I allow her to interfere in my families relationship with my kids (plus the whole residency thing) - thats why i phrased it as I did rather than asking her to cancel it.
Given the current circumstances i think text or email would be her preferred route
So how about
Hi, I've got a letter confirming post redirection for you and the kids. I would like for my family to continue to be able to post to the kids directly at my address. I'll contact Royal Mail to ask for the kids to be taken off the redirection. Going forwards, please can we discuss things like this before we make any changes? Thanks
So I’ve touched on this a little bit during the day and said I would post a bit more later so here it is. This is just some thoughts that have been rattling around in my head for a couple of days, maybe a bit longer and to be honest it kind of started in discussion with edz about the ‘thing’. I hope they make sense
So this kicked off from a question was basically:
What if you knew your wife was 100%, never coming back done, what would you do differently? So for me there are two key parts to this question, how would I know and what would change.
Well the first part stuck with me a bit because if we trust their actions and even to an extent what they say then everything says my wife is 100% done (moved out, signed separation agreements, barely speaks to me, changed her name, dating OM, told all her friends and family I’ve bullied and emotionally abused her etc. etc.). In 5 months all I’ve seen from her is more distance and more resentment and so if she’s not 100% done then she’s been headed that way.
Plus I’ve made a whole bunch of DB mistakes in the last 4 months some of which will make reconciliation harder. Putting my wife and me aside it’s difficult to see how either of our families would accept the other back in which would also make things really difficult. So there are some very big barriers with the most important being she doesn’t want to.
Whether she is 100% done or not (And the only thing that says she isn’t is my hope) does that really make a difference to today or tomorrow or next week?
I found this quote earlier which resonated
If you think you had no choice when it came to divorcing, ask yourself the following question
“Do you really want to be involved in a relationship with someone who does not appreciate you and puts you down?”
The sooner you accept your separation, the sooner you’ll stop suffering. Some people believe wrongly that if they suffer enough, their ex will come back (and save them)! That is a painful fantasy to live with. Even if your ex came back, that would not be the foundation of a healthy relationship.
Now in answer to that question – No I don’t want a relationship with someone who can shut me out, cheat on me, Lie to me (and for a long time), say such horrible and unpleasant things about me, portray me in the way she has, be so disrespectful, show such disregard for my kids wellbeing, be so selfish and unreasonable, be so deluded about finances, make no real effort to work on our marriage and most importantly doesn’t want to be in a relationship with me.
So as she was, yes I love her and want to be with her and would have gladly loved and cared for her until my dying breath – I believed she felt like that about me. As she is now well I would just be subjecting myself to a lifetime of misery and no one deserves that.
Just as a moment of balance - I do know I did plenty wrong but I’ve been doing what I can to learn and grow
So back to the second part of the original question –
what would I do differently? The more I think about it, the answer right now is not that much other than start dating. Outside of the relationship side of it I’m doing alright with my life. I want to achieve more but that’s about getting my work mojo back and things are turning around on that front. What I need to do more than anything else is move on and get my wife and my situation out of my head.
So my thoughts then questioned, if my wife doesn’t want me and I don’t want her as she is now and I can’t control her or change her into the person she used to be or a new improved version of her old self then
what am I holding on to? I’m holding on to a fantasy, an illusion that only exists in my head.
I’m not letting it go because I’m afraid of a bunch of stuff
I’m afraid that I will not find someone as good as my wife
I’m afraid no one will want me
I’m afraid I will be seen as a failure
I’m afraid that I will have given up on my marriage to soon
I’m afraid of the impact this will have on my relationship with my kids
I’m afraid of the impact this will have on my kids
I’m afraid of the impact of blended families
I’m afraid that I haven’t grown enough
I’m afraid of the whole dating thing because it’s new and unfamiliar
And probably a bunch more besides
I’m also afraid of being that guy who sits crying on the driveway of his XWs house while she enjoys her new life and new man or the guy who is so filled with resentment that his life is miserable.
To put it in economic terms I’m so focused on the sunk cost that I risk ignore the opportunity cost and so I continue to throw good money after bad.
So what? Well this all heads to the conclusion that I need to move on and sometimes the best way to move on is to actually move on rather acting ‘as if’
And this is where it links to what Ganb8te said
‘I want someone to share life’s adventures with’ I want that too. I don’t need that and I’ll be fine on my own but that connection is something I want in my life and something I haven’t truthfully had for a long while now (since way before BD) and realistically there are only two options there
1) DB like mad and hope my wife wants to reconcile
2) DB like mad and look for the connection elsewhere (dating)
Now personally I feel going solely with 1 you exclude 2, but I’m not sure I agree 2 excludes 1. It adds a hurdle but relatively small in comparison to the other issues reconciliation would have to overcome. OK maybe not keeping things paved and smooth but also not closing the door because saying that makes some big assumptions about how successful dating would be.
But when I really think about it, again I find the same fears that stop me letting go, then the added fears of What if I face more rejection? What will my wife think? What if it pushes my wife away further? Is it really any better than her adultery? And (here’s the kicker) what if I meet someone new and truly move on?
There is also a big part that knows at this point I would drop anyone else like a stone if my wife said she wanted me back and I’m not sure I want to be that guy, but again we aren’t talking about jumping straight into marriage and I would definitely take things very slow.
So I’m not saying that I going to start dating or even that I want to right now. I’m just reflecting that I may never feel ‘ready’ to date but it might be something that I decide to do as part of accepting my reality. Sometimes you do the actions and the feelings follow.
And moving on is not the same as giving up, it also doesn’t mean we can’t move back.
I’m not going to do anything different right now – just sharing the thoughts rattling around up there.
Some heavy thinking there mate. I know a lot of those thoughts but remember to add one that I tend to forget what if whatever happens and I am happier? That's the one I am trying to focus on right now.
"Well, this all heads to the conclusion that I need to move on and sometimes the best way to move on is to actually move on rather than acting 'as if.'"
Jim, I've been thinking about this too lately. That the best way to DB isn't acting 'as if' - but hoping at some level, watching and waiting - but to truly move on without looking over your shoulder to even see what the WAS is doing. If you do that, you stay 'locked' in the situation to an extent.
I guess the thing I have a difficulty with - (and shoot me down for generalising) - but I think many guys equate this 'moving on' with dating. I've noticed on this forum that guys are much more inclined to seek other women at a much earlier stage (and sometimes much too soon IMO) than the ladies are.
Is it that men have more fragile egos and 'need' that feminine affirmation - IDK? I know this is all very controversial and I may well get come back on this. I recognise there are guys who don't do this - but I notice a trend.
I guess it bugs me a bit because I met my H a year after his S and before he was D. After we had been together a few months, his W asked him to go to counselling with her to see if they could reconcile. He ended our R, and I was already in love with him and very upset. He then asked me if we could still go out together whilst he and his W were having MC - I said 'no way!' and we split up for about 7 months until they had actually started D proceedings. Although when we met, he had been 'dating' for a while then, and in hindsight (tho maybe I was a bit naive at the time - it was too soon.)
I can understand why you feel this way, as things certainly seem 'cold' with your W. 'Cold' normally means anger - and behind this of course lies pain. My view is that whilst your sitch has been ongoing for some time - your S hasn't...And who knows what may happen with a little distance and time?
IMO, deciding to 'date' just a few weeks after S seems 'reactive' and I think it would be best to focus on getting 'your' life together and 'moving on' within yourself before dating. I can understand why you're getting it out of the box and having a look - but you still sound so conflicted - and it may be an idea to leave it in the box for now and healthier to focus on other 'healing' things in the meantime. You can always get it out of the box at some point.
I hope this is helpful - and I think you're doing really well Jim :-)
Edz, just answering your question from your thread.
Yes some heavy thinking and feeling introspective. Not unusual for me.
I guess that I've been pretty unhappy with my relationship with my wife for several years now. And through my choices I allowed that to perpetuate and accept scraps of affection rather than face the issues. (Taking responsibility for my own happiness).
My wife is done, everything about her words and actions tells me that. I can't even interact with her at the moment as everything is being made into a battle - that post redirection, there was no need for that and no thought of the consequences. Even when I point them out, and they aren't unreasonable, she will assume I'm deliberately being difficult and abusive.
So I just don't see a way back, and I'm not sure that someone who has that much of a victim mentality is someone I want TI be with. There is more joy to be had in life.
I still love her and want my marriage and my family, but the only thing standing for it seems to do is prolong my hurt.
I will keep DB'g because I am growing as a person. I recognise this ^^^^^ lot for starters and know that some if this is because I'm hurt and lonely. But I'm a rational person and that rational part is saying it's time to move on.
Extra push just received from SIL by the way. I'll explain later as I want some scripting help.
You are doing very well mate especially considering you had inhouse then this I think that shows real fortitude.
Interesting question Toots, my manly (honest) thoughts are that as you know Im in the 6 (nearly 7) month club here since w left. I know that even if there had been an opportunity anything I started would have been a disaster over this time.
I'm equally not sure what I want now which to me says any doubt and you're best concentrating on something else like GAL or even decorating but dont fixate on finding new partners (for a start can you imagine the expectations that would place on a potential new partner to satisfy our emotional needs or the codependency threat - personally I need to be past that before thinking about someone else lovely as close company would be).
Any of this, of course, (to me) then rules out reconciliation. If thats still an option and I want more than friendship then I need to just be patient. If I'm beyond the emotional point where I can wait then I need to be open with w - which we did speak about early on - I'm not there yet so no seeking someone for me. W is closer(ish) but not sending me any signals or signs that she's interested in anything than being friendly so I'm just trying to stay lovingly detached right now and not only show I'm getting on with life but *actually* get on with my life with the exception of seeking someone new either really or appearing to (I know viewpoints on that last part are wide, I just know my W hates any kind of playing games and it could badly backfire)
I haven't mentioned physical needs here (I think a lot of us skirt around discussing it). I know on the board we all have different outlooks and what constitutes a relationship. To me they've always been one and the same, if 'your' (I.e. the general thread visitors - not you Jim or you Toots) mileage varies I'd never judge and if everyone involved is happy and stays safe then great. For me, no ons or casual thanks - thats just me though. I think that is a driving point for a lot of guys rushing into a new r though.
My mind *is* drifting on possibilities and Im less anchored to needing to know what w is/was up to (thing excepted) have I moved on at all from bd? Yes, enough to say goodbye and let her take her journey and me take another, nope. So its not a good idea to drag someone else in unless its really understood its for friendship full stop (why would any of us put someone else through the waiting game we play?)
Jim, I read and re-read your post. I think you have the same duality I have going on (obv my w seems a little warmer - sometimes - but its no slam dunk she'll come back or even think about coming back) if so as Toots says put purposeful new relationships (dating) in a box for now, get on with enjoying your life with the kids and if a natural opportunity pops up with someone you meet maybe then think about it for platonic company and don't attach any heavy expectations.
I dont think I'll be being bombarded with opportunities myself but thats fine for me, my cake is still cooking will w prove to be the icing or not or will it be a new white chocolate whipped cream covering? I've no idea (mmm cake, this metaphor is your fault Toots
)
As Toots said in her post, I dont know if that helps at all mate just my viewpoint on it all.
Just keep going mate, you are doing really well, let us know how you get on with those canvases!
Edz, just answering your question from your thread.
Page break so quote that to keep it all in context
I think mate its a tricky one to isolate marriage - the feeling and closeness, the partnership and warmth with the partner and the person.
Even if the person isnt someone we want we may want the feeling and (as seems to be the case with my w) vice versa.
Absolutely keep db going, whether we d or reconcile I'll keep the process ongoing as its made such positive changes to who I am going forward.
You know from my threads I had similar moments of understanding. Lots has been wrong for a long time, none of it changes what I own but w brought problems as well and our communication (or lack of it) did the rest. The question now is I know I've grown and changed and am better for it, can w change those issues she has (or even want to) and do we rebuild from here or call it quits.
Sadly takes two to tango on this one. I'm waiting for the music to start..
Hang in there and let us know on the SIL pushing
Toots, edz thank you for the consider and thoughtful replies.
Toots you raised a couple of things that I'd like to come back to but they deserve a more thought out response.
Don't worry Im not pursuing it, I think its a case of taking things out of the box and just giving them a good looking at to see how I feel and what I think with all my normal processing
SIL push.
This morning I recieved a parcel which was the unopened christmas presents I sent my nephew and niece (or STBX N&N)with a note inside. it was short but the key paragraph was:
Whilst I appreciate what has gone on is none of my business, I was hugely disappointed to learn that our grans money has not been returned to my sister. I am sure gran is turning in her grave and this wasn't right/fair, in my families shared opinion.
I guess you've done what you think is right, which is your perogative.
Now this sheds a lot of light on the whole money grabbing comments that have been made and also shows to me the conversation they have been having is much as I expected. Theres a lot of detail which you dont need but suffice to say that this represents a very narrow and overly simplified view.
I feel given the conversation we've had its another marker to show that any reconcilliation would involve substantial family fallout.
Any way i feel i should respond in part because I dont think silence is helpful here and in part because I want to. I also have no expectation that SIL will see anything positive.
This letter has however provoked all my sarcastic and snarky side as there is a lot of criticism i can direct at SIL, but i dont want to go there and I'm recognising and observing those emotions rather than letting them control me. Though you should see the letter that side of me would draft (BACK IN YOUR BOX)
So I've drafted a response and would like some input - Have i removed all the Jackal?
Hi SIL
I was disappointed to receive the parcel and letter from you. I'll respect your wishes and refrain from sending N and N presents in future. Please know I wish the very best for them both.
I'll admit to being a little confused regarding your comments about the money W inherited from your Gran but can understand why you might feel as you do. Although I could explain my feelings on this I'm not sure that would be helpful.
What I will say, and financial disclosure will show, is that I have given W all the money it was possible for me to raise and done this in the timescale she requested. Our only alternative would have been to sell the house which would have taken significantly longer and most likely resulted in a smaller amount of money for W.
No one has done well out of this and it is my greatest hope that we are able to minimise the harm this does to our children so that whether with me or with W, they have a stable and loving home.
Regards
Jim
So thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Just leaving work for the day and on mobile so I will take a look when I get back home.
In the meantime I'd ponder 1. does it meet the keeping things smooth with family option 2. does it actively help to get back in touch?
I appreciate its a lot more complex than you can post here though. I'll take another look when I get back
Edz
Hmm, I'm in two minds on this one Jim. I know you feel it's unfair, but might you just want to leave it? Would that be a 180 for you? Just accept SIL is unhappy, not try and justify yourself and move forwards?
Often a little space and time will resolve things that a letter sent now may not.
If you do want to send the letter, I think it's okay - although, I would take out that last sentence in para 3 about selling the house..
You may want to 'sit' on this one for a week Jim & see how you feel then.
Also, what did happen to Gran's money (if you don't mind me asking?) Do W's family have a legitimate grievance?
The issue is that my wife wanted to leave then but didn't and now regrets it as she feels she would have been better off.
She said a few times that if she was going to leave she would have done it then as it was 'the perfect opportunity'. (Can't believe I took the reassurance rather than the hint)
But no I don't feel its legitimate.
She has left with 60% of it in cash, plus her car which represents another 20%. The rest got spent in the intervening year and a bit on a house move, paying of credit cards, holidays, carpets etc.
Their grievance also ignores the dynamic of our finances. We were married so our money was shared to do family things. I didn't buy anything for me very much and then mostly off eBay. Let's say 2% of my salary went on stuff that is mine.
Prior to the inheritance my wife had nothing but eyewatering debt which I'd being helping to pay (by paying 100% of the household bills and half the nursery fees). What little capital there was, was all bought to the marriage by me.
Its irrelevant as well because the only way I could have given her more would have been to accept less equity from the house which would have meant me moving. And to hit the figure she inherited after sales expenses etc. I would have had to accept less than half what I put in 5 years ago.
I gave her the maximum I could possibly raise and still keep a (non rented) roof over my head
And just because I'm on this soapbox let's not forget she had an affair and is leaving me. I don't want any if this - I wanted her to stay here and for it all to still be ours.
And SIL got the address wrong, maybe because she has never been there for my W except where she can gain or indulge in sanctimonious outrage.
Yeah - I never liked SIL and am quite angry about this.
Sorry for the outburst.
Is it possible that your family can send your kids things in care of you? I understand why it makes you mad, believe me...just trying to find a positive spin.
Jim, just quickly. Strongly suggest you not sent. SIL doesn't need to know this. Clearly there is a different view and if SIL gives this letter to W, how will she respond? If you do want to send the letter then I suggest you leave out paragraph 3. SIL just doesn't need to know these details.
If I reflect honestly paragraph 3 was written because i know full well that SIL would show it to my W. This is something i want my wife to understand.
I also have thought that i would talk to my W about this directly to let her know i will be replying to SIL.
This is my hurt ego talking i suppose, they have an opinion which i believe is totally unfair (hence the anger in my previous post) and i want to correct it (Control coming out). and again if im really honest with myself there is part of me believes that if i can shatter one part of her distorted view the rest may start to unravel.
So the sensible plan is that I do nothing for a couple of days and then see how I feel or whether i just let it go (that song is stuck in my head these days)
Right now my amended text is
Hi SIL
I was disappointed to receive the parcel and letter from you. I'll respect your wishes and refrain from sending N and N presents in future. Please know I wish the very best for them both.
Regarding the money W inherited from your Gran, I was unaware this is how you, and I take from your letter W, feel about this. I would gladly discuss this with W as I would like to understand more about why she feels this way although i recognise that may not be appropriate at the moment.
Thank you for sharing this with me.
Regards
Jim
Hmmmmm..... that could probably be seen as passive aggressive giraffe.
Probably best i say nothing at least for now.
Thank you for the help and input
Jim - say nothing sounds like a good policy for now - especially as you feel pretty angry about it. I feel it is usually a good policy to do nothing when my emotions are running high.
See how you feel in a few days...
Let it go Jim. Frankly it is between you and W.
My notes tell me that W wanted the resources for your children, perhaps in due course a savings plan for them?
If SIL is so rude as to return a gift then it is not worth a further thought. Thumb a nose, there SIL, irrelevant. Whoosh. V would detatch to let go of it. Why waste your precious spare energy on it?
V
What vanilla said its none of her bloody bussiness.
I would not give her air time, don't feed the troll! I would, be thinking of her as nasty troll complete with wooden bridge and goats.
Troll is a good description.
I continue to be impressed by your notes vanilla, Thank you.
There was some money to do with the kids savings which is different (and was given to her as she asked). From my perspective the complaint is firstly untrue, legally incorrect and in all practical terms completely irrelevant.
I shoukd be used to it by now but the way my Wife's family are able to not even notice their double standards continues to irk me. I am irked.
I don't want to ignore the letter from SIL but recognise going there isn't going to go well so I think I will send a message which is just the first bit about being disappointed she returned the presents and wishing nephew and niece well. Not feeding the troll.
I do need to resist the urge to talk to my wife about it though
Morning Jim! Why not just do nothing for a bit longer.....you can be irked and just let it go you know.....you seem compelled to respond, contrary to advice - why is that?
Jim would you give a troll a stick to beat you bullets to shoot you with?
Um no James bond would look scathingly at her and walk away! Don't give her any power, if you say nothing you cannot be misquoted.
Seriously, it's a db principle.
Jim remember my MIL interactions....
More I talked to her worse it got, last time I said fine I'll pay her invoice (tenancy end / cleaning) left it at that, she tried prodding me again when it wasnt soon enough and I didnt rise to it.
There are many. many, many regrets I'll have if my marriage ends but never, ever having to see MIl is not one of them.
Go watch Frozen with the kids again if you get my drift!
You ok Jim or out on a busy gal evening!
No GAL this evening because i have the kids this weekend
I'm doing ok, bit up and down for a bunch of reasons.
Toots - just to quickly answer your question about feeling compelled to answer. Your right - I do, and at first i wasnt sure why but i've decided its an ego thing. I've talked about previously a sense of injustice that i want to rally against, but when it was coming from my wife i was ok to handle it (not at first but better now) because I know she is hurting and I can empathise with how she felt during the marriage - I saw it as part of her emotional defences.
SIL is different, and its really hard to explain why without being insulting or judgemental about her - which i recognise i am but lets just say I wont miss her. Her letter has really inflamed my sense of injustice like a red rag to a bull.
But best left alone i think and give it a week I'll likely forgotten
Otherwise a quick update on the land of Jim
So my car alternator died, which in turn killed the battery and meant on thursday i got into my car and was greeted with the inspriring sound of my car going COUGH COUGH WHINE...... NO
this has led to a silly expensive repair (which i can ill afford at the moment) and a few logistical difficulties. Car is still in the garage but I can get it tomorrow. I could have collected it tonight but Wife refused to delay the pickup time for me to collect the kids from her by an hour as she has a date tonight.
When i collected them (at orignally agreed time) she seemed really hacked off the whole 3 minutes i was there. clip answers, scowling, rushing us all out the door etc, wouldnt look at me (which is a shame because I was looking pretty darn good in a very well cut and fitted suit.)
I overstepped a boundary without realising which definitely annoyed W in that S1 ran off before I could get his coat on and I followed him into W's lounge to retrive him, and wife was cross about this - I guess because i intruded into her space. I need to be careful of not intruding in future.
Got the kids home and spent an hour or so just reading stories and D3 kept saying how she missed me and wished everyday was a 'daddy day'. she probably says the equivalent to W but i dont care its lovely to hear
Spent the last two days delivering a training course which went really well. 1 of the participants said it was the most worthwhile training course they had been on in 15 years so that felt good. Also its almost impossible to think about my situation when i'm doing that so again also good.
And just to round it off because it always entertains me - I got ID'd in the supermarket. The look I get when some asks if i'm over 18 and i produce ID that says i'm 34 is always priceless.
So a few dramas here and there but i'm doing pretty good really, just relaxing with a cup of tea, on the sofa in front of the fire.
Tea or coffee in front of the fire now invest in crumpets and a toasting fork and you're in heaven!
Glad you're holding off mate, sorry to hear about the car reminds me of the wipers failing on my car not long after getting it doh! These things always come at the worst time, got the tax this month as well arghhh.
And just to round it off because it always entertains me - I got ID'd in the supermarket. The look I get when some asks if i'm over 18 and i produce ID that says i'm 34 is always priceless.
There's one store here that always cards. I could be Betty White and they'd still card me. But it's fun every time.
Morning Jim - interesting reading about your interaction with W last night. Gosh, she seems so full of anger - and barely able to be civil. What popped into my mind is that hatred isn't the opposite of love - indifference is. She certainly isn't indifferent is she?
And, it's funny that she is so angry with you when she is the one who has been unfaithful. Without reading back through your sitch, did she just feel that her infidelity was justified because of how you guys were interacting? Were you faithful during the M? (if you don't mind me asking?)
Hi toots,
Yes I was faithful during the marriage though I'll admit for a few months about a year ago I found myself wondering if I'd be happier elsewhere as I didn't feel like the relationship was really working for me (wife just didn't seem to be able to find joy in anything). I wish I'd acted on it then.
She says OM1 has nothing to do with the breakup and that its because she was so miserable and that my 'bullying, controlling and abusive' behaviour is what made her miserable. I don't agree I was even in that ball park but at the same time a lot of my behaviour wasn't great (basically I sulked a lot) - so I do agree that OM1 was a catalyst rather than cause.
She seems really angry at me but I'd be guessing why, I suspect a combination of things and money being a massive one given what SIL has said. I doubt she even fully knows but she knows whatever it is is my fault.
Jim
I personally hold YOU responsible for the followings:
1. The world economy
2. The bad weather
3. My toothache
4. The fact I ate cheese to day
5. That you had emotions
6. That you did not cheat on W
7. That you have 100 things you like about yourself
8. That W cheated on you
9. Everything, everywhere at any time
And it make me very upset that you are super DBer. How dare you look after your own interests, try wine and go GAL.
Immediately go away and be very miserable waiting for W crumbs.
V
To be honest I think you hit the nail on the head with no.9 there, if you add the words 'not perfect'
I just want to issue a brief clarification to my earlier post, what I wish I had acted on was my unhappiness in a way to improve my marriage. For a start by reading some of the books that now festoon my house. Realise it could be read very differently.
And I just want to say its been one if the best 'daddy days' ever. I've had a brilliant day with the kids even if the canvas handprint session got a little fraught.
Really tired now though
Hi Jim
Glad you and the kids had a good day. Sounds like you now have some great canvases to put up! H did his canvases with SS before I met them, but I must admit I still love those little fingers and toes you can make out, even though SS towers over me and has a deep voice now!
Enjoy the rest of the weekend :-)
Glad the canvasses worked out mate, have a good rest this evening
That list is golden nilla. Could work for any of us really.
H held me responsible for bad weather blamed me if I chose to drive a certain way, but he was always the driver, something I'm hardly to blame for.
I have a wonderful image in my mind of the canvas, Jim and the kids.
Giggling smiling and Jim where do you get the energy!
V
Evening all.
I've just done the handover of children with my wife and it just feel like an ordeal. My stress levels just shot up
good stuff first. I had another lovely day with the kids. Swimming was cancelled which meant i had both for longer. We made and decorated a 3ft space rocket out of card, read some stories, chased around a bit, made blueberry muffins. a good but average day.
Less good next. I had a couple of big disagreements with D3 (she wouldnt get changed, refused to listen, tried to walk off then hit me. I still find it hard not to get cross in those circumstances even though i know it doesnt help and so I got a little shouty (Not yelling but loud and stern) and ended up carrying her to her bedroom for a time out.
and the bad..... the handover. I dont necessarily think i did anything wrong though wife was cross when she arrived and stood awkwardly in the hall while i got the kids together. I said she could come in and she said she didnt want to. she asked me if id got the bits she wanted sorted - I hadnt because i hadnt seen the text she sent earlier this afternoon asking me, but i doubt she believed me, still it only took about 3 minutes. Generally she had the same attitude as friday. Total handover time was maybe 10 minutes.
I said goodbye to the kids and told them I'd had a lovely weekend and was looking forward to tuesday when i pick them up.
Throughout, I could feel my stress rising partly because its always stressful when the you try and get two tired under 5s out the front door, partly because of the circumstances and partly because of my STBXW attitude.
possible/probable mistakes on my part,
- I said to W it was nice to see her and i hope she has a nice week. she at best grunted in response
- I said 'SIL has sent me a letter which i'd like to talk to you about at some point but its not urgent' she replied by saying she knew SIL was going to but didnt know what she was going to say.
I'm not sure i want to know but i do wonder what indifference would look like. I wonder if i'm misreading absence of love as anger and hate. She isnt saying nasty things she just simply wont engage on any level and is avoiding any small talk to avoid me getting hopes up.
suffice to say this is still affecting me way more than i should let it.
possible/probable mistakes on my part,
- I said to W it was nice to see her and i hope she has a nice week. she at best grunted in response
- I said 'SIL has sent me a letter which i'd like to talk to you about at some point but its not urgent' she replied by saying she knew SIL was going to but didnt know what she was going to say.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being pleasant to W. In fact, it can be kind of amusing to be nice while watching WAS be grumpy in return. A little game if you will.
But do you really want to talk to W about SIL's letter? What's your goal there?
I would not reply to SIL's nastygram. There is simply no benefit to you whatsoever to do so. Your ego does not need that low grade food.
I would not talk to W about SIL's letter. Again, no possible upside. What do you think the chances are that W agrees with your position and sides against SIL? Zero. And she'll throw in something else to irk you even more, and you'll be fighting to contain yourself.
When you see a hornet's nest that is clearly labeled "HORNET'S NEST", and you happen to have a stick in your hand, resist the urge. No good can come from this.
In this case what i've done is effectively say to wife 'oh look a hornets nest'. Having said that i'm really not someone to put next to a big red button marked 'do not push'
So mentioning it had a couple of objectives,
- I've acknowledged it without having to engage SIL
- I would like to know if W does feel like SIL describes (I'm 99% certain she does but i would like her to say it).
- Its a slight release for my mr fixit in the sense this ball is now with wife
- and if wife didnt know (reasonably likely) then she should. SIL has never done anything altruistic in her life.
we will never talk about it though, i can barely get my wife to discuss kids medical things let alone something bordering into relationship territory.
Jim, did your W ever say anything about the letter you gave her? (Sorry if I missed it)
possible/probable mistakes on my part,
- I said to W it was nice to see her and i hope she has a nice week. she at best grunted in response
- I said 'SIL has sent me a letter which i'd like to talk to you about at some point but its not urgent' she replied by saying she knew SIL was going to but didnt know what she was going to say.
I'm not sure i want to know but i do wonder what indifference would look like. I wonder if i'm misreading absence of love as anger and hate. She isnt saying nasty things she just simply wont engage on any level and is avoiding any small talk to avoid me getting hopes up.
What do the vets tell you about these things? My impression hasn't changed: I find them very uncomfortable. When I reject someone, I deeply dislike them being nice to me. You always give to your WAW more than she wants from you. That's what irks her. On the one hand, you still wish for R, but on the other hand you seem intent on "being nice to her" as if it brought you closer to that goal. Sometimes, you present it as being true to yourself, but that's not what DB is about. DB is counter-intuitive. DB is about what works. How's that "being nice" working? Where do you find it in DR, for your type of sitch?
As you know from my sitch, there is nothing more I would like than to engage with my WAW. In fact, when she left she wasn't so far off from how your WAW behaves now, without the nastiness. My WAW was utterly indifferent to me and trying to avoid me. Once she was gone, and increasingly over time, I've taken more and more distance, under the advice of vets like Wonka, sandi2 and Labug. Gradually, our roles have reversed. Now WAW is the one reaching out to me and it's me who's non-responsive. I give her less than she wants, so she's asking for more.
So my inclination would be to
reject your WAW. Don't be nasty, but do not get into her home, do not invite her in yours, do not ask about her day, keep your distances when she asks about you (it will happen), etc. It seems so self-evident, both based on DB and on real life experience, that I'm not sure why you haven't started doing it yet. I'm guessing it was hard during the in-house S, but now could be a good time to start.
Imagine a colleague you don't really like, but who's infatuated with you. She spends 99% of her time around you acting rather normal, but once a day, she blows you a kiss from a distance. Will you think she's 99% normal? These little things that your WAW rejects from you are likely what stays in her mind and explain why she's being mean and cold to get rid of these behaviors in you. One day, she'll have to be nice or curious and you'll have to keep on being distant so that she knows it's safe to come close. Think of the picnic analogy.
By the way, I really like all that you do with your kids. Congratulations.
No, she's not said anything about the letter I gave her. For all I know it could have gone straight in the bin never even read.
I'd like to think there is enough in our history that she would have read it but no way for me to know.
Im doing my best to live what I said though, and I'd be fascinated to know what she sees/thinks in the limited contact we do have.
Its why I say she won't mention SIL letter, she hasnt wanted to speak to me about anything since BD and possibly since sometime before that.
Hi Jim, glad you had a nice time with your kids, and sorry it wasn't the easiest handover. I'm sure they will get much easier - it's still early days after your S, and things are still pretty raw.
"she just simply wont engage on any level and is avoiding any small talk to avoid me getting hopes up" - I think this is mindreading....who knows why your W is behaving this way? It may be not to get your hopes up, it may be a range of other reasons...as V. would say - no doubt all will unravel in time.
As Mozza suggests, it may be worth mixing it up a bit with your behaviour in handovers. If you have tried being chatty and pleasant with a brick wall in response - maybe try a quieter, but still neutral/pleasant approach and see how that goes. Try not asking how she is, or did she have a good weekend?
I too wouldn't broach the SIL letter any further....and I love the hornets nest analogy....My Mum always used to say, "if I tell your brother the stove is hot, he'll put his hand on just to see! Here's the thing though Jim - No good will come of it! You've seen your W's demeanour now. She's never in a month of Sundays going to admit her sister went OTT with the letter. I would leave it well alone, unless she raises it. And if she does, you can maybe just say - Oh that? Not to worry - no need to talk about it.
T x
Whatever I'm doing doesn't seem to be working very well.
I guess I don't see it as being nice, more friendly and courteous. I dont ask about what shes up to or anything like that. I'm positive in tone especially about the kids and will occassionaly wish her well or say something affirmative or appreciative. I guess I should drop that side and be solely functional.
There are people I work with who I really dislike but I still say hello, ask after their families etc.
Part of it though is that I worry if I get more cold and mirror her on this I will leave more space for my anger to grow or come out.
Jim, I don't think you are aiming for cold, or to mirror her. Keep it subtle. If you asked how she was doing last time, don't ask next time. But don't be cold, just be busy with the kids etc and get them sorted. Maybe if you just focus on them and not on your W next time - not being unpleasant, but just not really engaging because you're getting the kids sorted..
Jim
What could you do to make handover functional rather than emotional?
Cool rather than warm?
Vanilla
What could you do to make handover functional rather than emotional?
I feel like if i cool interactions at handover much more then I would be in the territory that it starts to become rude. guess I'm finding my way with the balance between not being too nice while at the same showing PMA.
It is 95% functional and pretty quick, its not like im stalling for time. need to drop that 5% (thanks mozza for the illustration). I also know that she is going to have her resentful attitude and to be honest you'd think after 5 months i'd be used to it, but it still bothers me (yes, detaching needs more work)
To an extent though I dont think it really matters how i act in the sense that my wife will likely find a way to see it as awful on my part, and even when its not she will be assuming I will try to get back at her somehow (good track record for this bit of mindreading - her expectation rather than me getting her back as I dont think I've ever done this). If she wants to be angry and blame me she will find a reason.
What does matter is what my kids see and I dont want them to see mummy and daddy unable to talk to each other. I know what its like to be a kid around that kind of parenting tension.