Last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2527232&page=1I don't even have it in me for a witty title.
I haven't been around. Partially because I've been thinking. Partially because things were getting better with H. He had been reaching out more, initiating conversations. We had a couple of heart to hearts which resulted in us agreeing to go back to therapy to learn how to communicate with one another, him admitting he was severely depressed but actively working on it, having several break throughs in therapy, and lately he committed to "let's try and figure this out." Oh, and he told me that he thought we had a pretty decent shot at working out should he be able to, "get his head on straight." We both and notice behavior changes in each other and new as commenting on it, etc. sounds promising right?
Yeah. Then today happened.
I'm in a huge, important meeting at work - when a friend (not a close friend) but a friend none the less texts me and says that my H has a profile on Tinder. I immediately want to throw up. She sends me a screen shot of the profile. Yep. It's him. Active the day after his declaration of, "let's try and figure things out." No chance of being a fake profile, has things in there only he would know. I get out of work, call H and calmly ask him if he has been online dating. He expressed shock, "no I wouldn't do that, I don't want anyone in my life except you, I'm working on my marriage, blah blah blah." I tell him what I find out. Ask for honesty. He' still denies. This pisses him off because he wouldn't so anything like that. Keeps on going about how he wouldn't do that, and thine later on as I listen to him ramble, it changed to "I'm was in a really dark place for awhile, I don't know what I could have done in the middle of my depression." Long story short, he comes over to the house, still denying he was on there. I ask to check his phone. He willingly hands it over.
Of course the app is deleted. But then he went too far, he had deleted all his text messages. I asked why. "Oh, I didn't want you to see what my mom has been saying. You know how she gets." Right. Then I show him the screen shot on my phone. He finally fesses up. Doesn't have a reason why he was on there. Claims he didn't rate any girls, doesn't know why he was on there, it was stupid. Blah blah blah. Then I get into his facebook. Check the messenger I see a name I don't recognize. I ask who is x? And he immediately freaks out and starts going for his phone. I fend him off and read the messages. He said it was nice to meet her. Here is his phone number in case she wants to chat, he's ends her a voice message. She sends one back. (Both are BS. Nothing flirty, but still messages). He sends a message that he could, "listen to that voice all day." She responds with a smiley face. He sends her pictures of his view on Christmas Eve. The same day where he's telling me everything is confusing and how he's sorry for how things are, he's trying to engage in conversation with this woman. She doesn't really engage back, aside from a smiley face and what not. Their last conversation was New Year's Eve. I ask how he met her, she was the bartender at his company party. They started talking and somehow got on the subject of being married and how they both were having marriage problems and how he just wanted someone to talk to that was going through the same thing.
Right.
So now that he's been caught, he's changed his tune to, "I want to want to be married but I can't do the work. I thought if we talked and went to a therapist it would get better and we could work it out." And some more stuff about how unhappy he was, and how he's depressed and he's ok with walking away because he doesn't want to hurt me and blah blah. And then later it changed to, "it's obvious I'm [censored] up in the head, I've got a lot of growing up to do, but I do want to go to counseling, I do want to see if this can work out, I do think if I can get my [censored] together we can work out. Claims he felt said he didn't want to work on it because he felt cornered. Said he lied about the tender thing because he was scared to be honest with me.
Now he's all, "let's talk tomorrow, I do want this to work out". Multiple apologies for "doing stupid things". Has deleted the app of his phone and unfriended the girl on Facebook without prompting.
Honestly? I can't even. The whole thing toes the line really closely for a deal breaker for me which is any kind of affair, emotional or physical. I am humiliated that while he was engaging me in R talks and "trying to work things out" he was on a stupid dating site. I'm humiliated that my friend saw and brought it to my attention. I feel betrayed. I don't know how I can trust anything he says. I don't know if I could. I feel stupid, because I thought we were getting better. I thought we were making small steps and we might make some progress. I feel like I've been played.
I wish I had never known. And now I do, and my whole world is upside down. Again.
My M is most likely over. And I feel like I have egg all over my face.
Breathe
Regroup
Breathe...
I am so sorry for this latest development in your sitch. I agree, there is no excuse for an A, EA or PA. My question to you is, can you still be with or want to work on M with H after finding this out?
You said the deal breaker for you is any kind of A, EA or PA. You've read some of his messenger messages, but did not see his texts. If, and I don't suggest you try, you find out there were more flirty messages, does this mean you won't work on the M anymore? What constitutes an EA to you?
I'm like you, I never thought I'd tolerate any kind of A, now my W is in an EA she denies...and..you know the rest. But you'd be surprised what you can put up with...
I would suggest you not talk to H for 24-48hours about this...your own rule. Let yourself calm down befor you say something you don't mean, let him think things out as well. I feel you would lose your [censored] if you tried talking to him now.
Breathe. Ask yourself where you really draw the line, an what this means for you.
Hi Calibri, I've been wondering how things were with you. Sorry to read this update. I suspect Maybell will be along soon to commiserate (her H was also on Tinder).
I agree with TLEE. I think it is important that you give this some time to process. You don't need to make a decision right now. Sit with it and see how you feel in a few days or couple of weeks even.
I used to think these things would be a deal breaker but now I'm not so sure, particulalry having read stories here.
(((Calibri)))
Hi Calibri, so sorry to read this update. Your sitch reminded me of a chapter I recently read in MHDLMAHTSE (Andrew G Marshall.)
The chapter was about H's saying one thing "I want to work on our M" and doing something else "online dating." - and then not being able to explain why, but saying he loves you etc. He says there are 6 reasons why H's behaviour makes no sense.
1) He doesn't have the 'tools' - Men are brought up to 'act' rather than 'examine their feelings.' And so feelings are often suppressed, denied. Ideally men need to listen to their feelings and work out the complex brew of emotions within. But, rather than do this, many either walk away, medicate or just get angry. (so I think the gist is he can't explain why, because he may not really know.)
2) He's lying to himself. A's cause lies - to your partner, and often to yourself. If your H is routinely lying to himself (and you and possibly an AP) how can he begin to know what he wants.
3) He's a people pleaser. He'll go to great lengths to make others happy and avoid conflict. Thereby denying his own needs, and not being kind or considerate to himself. So, whilst he might agree to have NC with other women, he's susceptible to contact from them, which leads to a cup of coffee, etc, etc.
4) Modern technology - it's easy to type first and think second. Much easier to get 'thrills, affirmation etc' remotely/electronically than if you had to go out to the phone box on a freezing January evening - or work hard to rebuild your M.
5) Shame - It's a toxic emotion and we'll do almost anything to avoid it (different to guilt, where you acknowledge you shouldn't have done something and make amends. Guilt is about the behaviour, shame is about your persona.) Shame can lead you to feel you are unlovable, so we try and avoid it with 3 tactics - justifying ourselves (I was only looking...), attacking (you shouldn't check up on me) and closing down (to block it out.) So, what do H's do? Go online to flirt with women and prove that he isn't unlovable.
6) Fear - H's are dealing with multiple, overlapping and competing fears. Frightened of being depressed, losing you, alienating kids, critical parents, missing out on 'saviour' OW, being able to pay bills etc. Why not just face the fear? Read back over point 1 here. When someone is frightened of making a mistake, they try to keep their options open - kick the can further down the road, hoping something will change or feelings may become clearer.
I have found the AGM books to be helpful alongside MWD's. His approach is very similar to what MWD recommends. There is also some advice on how to combat the above, so if you are interested, let me know and I'll post further.
Toots x
So he texted me this morning. Told me how sorry and ashamed he was of his behaviors, and how sorry he was to hurt me. That he had contacted his therapist to try and get an emergency appointment. That he hasn't broken his old habits of lying and people pleasing and that basically -- and how he doesn't know if he wants to work on the marriage or not, because "sometimes I don't want to, sometimes I do, But I don't know if its because of my habit of trying to make people happy or because of my own stuff. That's why I'm trying to get ahold of my therapist. Best way I can explain, I knew that you wanted to reconcile and I didn't see another response. I needed to buy time to regain my composure. I didn't lie to you completely, there were times where I wanted to talk and see you."
This is the second time that he's done this to me since BD. This, "I want to work on things" and then he pulls back and admits that it's not what he wants. Or that he doesn't know what he wants. That he's just people pleasing. And when he started this within the last month, I asked him if this was what he wanted, because I knew he had a tendency to people please and was he sure. Oh yes, he said.
What's the saying -- shame on you if you fool me once, shame on me if you fool me twice?
I understand that he's in a bad place. His new job isn't what he thought it would be and he's stressed out. He didn't get his promotion and raise like he thought he would, because the bosses told them he lacked confidence in his work. He's lost. He's depressed. Everything is hard for him right now. He's angry and hurt about everything and everyone. He thinks his existence has only hurt everyone around him. But at what point in time does a bad situation excuse inappropriate behavior?
When he moved out, he said he didn't want to see other people. That he had no interest in dating or talking to other women. That he didn't have his head on straight. Never in a million years did I think he would do something like this. He knew that was my line. My point of no return. And he did it anyway.
He lacks integrity. He lacks confidence. He lacks the basic tools to deal with hard [censored] in his life. And he continues to lie. To himself. To others.
Unbelievable.
T-I don't know if I can be with him after finding out what I did. Had he not lied about it? Maybe. But he lied. He covered his tracks, and not very well. And now with his latest revelation that his behaviors may or may not have been people pleasing? No.
We agreed when he left that we wouldn't talk to other people, we wouldn't date others. He was adamant about that. To find out that he met another woman, had conversations with her, flirted with her. While telling me he was lost, and didn't know what he wanted. To be on a dating website. That's not the character of someone I want to be with. Do I think what he did was an EA? No. I think it was stupid behavior. But I also think it's behavior that leads down a path that I cannot come back from.
Ganb8te - I am thinking about things. But with this mornings latest omission - the whole, people pleasing thing -- enough it enough. I need to get my ducks in a row, because he may never come back from this -- and I can't be caught flat footed waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Toots - I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. He's got a lot of [censored] to work on. And I respect that. But I also respect myself alot more, knowing that I need to completely remove myself from a situation that's not healthy for me.
Hey Calibiri-
I'm not speaking from personal experience here - because in my circumstance I had the BD, OW revelation and Separation all in one cr**py afternoon.
But I've seen 7 or 8 posters go through the revelation that you are experiencing and there is a silver lining and it looks like you have already discovered it.
That silver lining is a certain amount of clarity. It gives you better insight into what has really been happening and what you have been dealing with. And I think it really reinforces the notion that you have to let them go on their own journey and figure their own heads out.
Hang in there!
Well. He talked to his therapist. His therapist said we have issues communicating and that we shouldn't talk unless their was a mediator present. H's therapist told him that before and he thought it was malarkey. Interesting now how he wants to follow it when he got caught doing things he shouldn't.
H sent me a text message basically saying he wasn't going to talk to me without a mediator, but he was open to us going to therapy to "see if we could sort ourselves out." He is refusing to even acknowledge me in any sorts of communication. I got a "I know this isn't fair, but this is my boundary and I'm enforcing it."
He's suddenly all about his boundaries, but my boundary of not talking to other people while we were married and separated? Well, apparently boundaries can be picked and chosen to suit around here. I am deeply hurt that he is refusing to speak to me. My world gets blown up, again, and then I get left out in the dark.
I am flabbergasted. How does one go from wanting to work it out, to getting caught, to all this?
I'm being played. Played by someone who doesn't know what they want. Played by someone who is so deeply embedded in their own sorrow amd problems. Someone who continues to lie to me. Someone who blames me for their problems.
I'm in a rock and a hard place. I feel like I should file for legal separation so I can protect my assists and assure that I am protected. H doesn't have a pot to piss in, but I do. I don't want to be responsible for anything he might do. I know however, if I file, H won't work on anything.
But on the other hand, I don't want to be divorced. I love this man with everything that I have and then some. But I can't be married to the person he is right now. I don't think that he knows what he wants. I don't think he may ever know what he wants. I think he wants me to be the bad person and pull the trigger. I think he wants to be set free so he doesn't have to feel obligated to work on anything.
I do not know if I can come back from this. And I know, compared to other people on here, what I'm going through is small, small potatoes. The lying, the bs, it's all too much.
I thought we were making small steps. I thought we had a shot. I was open to seeing how this might play out.
I am such a fool. Such a damn fool.
H sent me a text message basically saying he wasn't going to talk to me without a mediator, but he was open to us going to therapy to "see if we could sort ourselves out."
...
But on the other hand, I don't want to be divorced. I love this man with everything that I have and then some. But I can't be married to the person he is right now.
...
I do not know if I can come back from this. And I know, compared to other people on here, what I'm going through is small, small potatoes. The lying, the bs, it's all too much.
Hey Calibri, I know you were just venting here but there were some pretty interesting things in there. He says he's open to you going to therapy. Does he mean together? I think that is pretty good option, no? You say you don't want to be divorced. Have you dug deep on that? Is it fear, ego, genuine love for your H? The answer to that should guide your actions. I don't think you're dealing with small potatoes at all. At least I know it doesn't feel that way to you. We're all here because we stand to lose the same thing (our marriages). The details are different, but in the end we're all trying to figure out what to do with the same potato.
I was out with a group of single friends last night and thought of you. They we talking about the dating scene and how all the guys were on both eHarmony and Tinder. I guess I had the wrong impression about Tinder. Here at least it seems to be used as just another dating site. It was a pretty enlightening conversation that definitely makes be want my M to work out!
And in shocking news. He had his parents call me to tell me he wanted a divorce. How he's going to have me served. All via his parents who were so smug about it.
Un believable. Absolutely unbelievable.
I cannot believe this is my life right now. This is my life. Wtf!?!
It is so over.
And punctuated by a text from his mom that said, "he's been lying to you about his needs or years but he just didn't want to hurt your feelings."
This is bullshit. Complete bullshit.
Wow. Having mommy do his dirty work? That's sort of sad. :P
just WOW.
Since he has been lying to you for years just to spare your feelings...he really is a people pleaser, to the point he has no idea who he is. And that his parents feel the need to step in, or he lets them step in shows more unhealthy, immature behavior, as you know. He is in a really bad place right now.
Keep posting here so we can support you.
He knows I don't like his parents. To have them do the dirty work, is pouring the whole container of salt in the open wound.
I got a further text from his parents before I blocked them that said, "H does feel like he owes you the decency to talk to you, he's just so upset that he can't do it right now. But he knows he shouldn't lie, but he lied to keep the peace and to spare you pain."
Everything was seemingly fine until he got busted. And then it all fell apart.
It probably never was fine. He was probably people pleasing me up until the end.
But to hide behind your parents?
I seriously cannot believe my marriage is ending this way. I thought he had more common decency than that.
Wow. I can't even, either, Calibri.
Look, I know you're hurt and broken hearted, and probably 10,000 other things because given all you've faced it'd be insane for you not to be.
Here's my observation...
He is unequipped and ill-skilled to make ANY adult decisions. It's not that he's a people pleaser, it's that he has no scruples and has absolutely no idea in the world who he is, what he stands for or what he wants.
Does he have a favorite color without someone telling him what it is? Has he always been like this or just recently?
The thing with a Tinder is total BS. You caught him red handed in a bold faced lie and now he's claiming "oh but I'm a people pleaser".
Give me a break. This man is so broken, Calibri. I know you love him with everything you have. I know. The reality is, he doesn't have the capacity to decide on loafers let alone what's best for his life.
When he's with you he says he wants to work on things.
When he's away from you he's signing up on a tinder.
When he's with the therapist he now needs boundaries and a mediator for any kind of communication with you.
When he's with his parents he's been lying to you about his needs because he doesn't want to hurt your feelings.
He can't think for himself, decide what HE wants.
This has nothing to do with whether you're meeting his needs or not, he doesn't know what his needs are because they change depending on whom he's around!!
He is in such a hole and has no idea how to get out.
The key here is how you're going to care for YOU.
I would start serious NC because contact is clearly not helping and he's using you as a crutch. He is grasping at straws to find the one person or action who is going to save him from his hell of a life but he doesn't see that only HE can do it.
Give him time to figure that out. Maybe he won't but being there to walk him through it isn't helping YOU.
Don't pursue. Don't contact. Work on you. If he contacts you, be kind but don't engage. Don't make plans. Don't visit. Seriously. It's not going to help your situation.
Calibri, this DB thing is NOT about him. It's about YOU. Where are YOU in this thing??
(((Hugs)))
C, first - damn. WTF indeed. I am angry for you. Been wondering where you've been...I'm sorry to hear all you are going through.
I can't say that I know how you feel, but your H's actions remind me of a certain someone. Mine told me at one point initially while we were talking about how to behave during S, dating other people - "well, isn't that the point, getting to know other people?" He backed off of that, agreed we wouldn't tangle things, but then mentioned again what he needed in his life (not what he wants to GIVE anyone else)...the savior, the manic pixie dream girl (not his words, but my interpretation of what he told a friend - someone to help him explore his triggers, someone gentle - basically a mom/counselor to finish helping him grow up)...I am expecting my H is hiding similar dirt while claiming to figure himself out. I think, as many faults as we want to recognize in ourselves - look, you're here, you're doing the work...certain men keep looking for another relationship to supplement the one they don't have with themselves.
I am biased, typing this. But you were one of the first people I identified with on this board, and your early words meant a lot to me. I think this is b.s. This thing with his parents...so there are three people that don't have any maturity and dignity in handling this? Here's me being morally judgmental and critical, and damn it, I'm going to hold to it - good parents would tell their son to man up and communicate with his wife in a respectable manner, and refuse to get in the middle of a mess he rightfully needs to clean up and handle.
Tonight I ran into one of H's best friends, our friend, in a parking lot...and he told me this - "yeah, I heard from H, but I don't want to talk to him. He sends me stupid texts, and I'm angry at him for the stupidity he's handling all this with. There's nothing I can say to him. You are his wife, what does he think he's doing right now? He thinks he's going to do better, what is he gaining by walking away from you, his life? He's not 20 anymore. You deserve better. And I can't believe it's not you walking away." I told our friend, ok, but WAH had his reasons for giving up too, and there were two sides of this. And the look he gave me - I wish I could bottle it, put it into words, and send it to you as a gift.
So, dear Calibri - yes, I believe you also deserve better. You certainly didn't deserve to be jerked around like this after all the time and patience you've put into saving your M. I imagine you as a smart, strong sarcastic and loving woman and I hope in your future you are loved in return with the same fire. If it is a better and changed version of your H and that is what you have the will to hold out for, as you hold to your goals, you'll have the support here. But I am sure you also have support here if you can't get past this.
His actions, choices... you know they have nothing to do with you and your value as a partner. This is a reflection of who he is and his character. It says a lot to yours that you've hung in this far.
Hugs, big ones.
Wow. I can't even, either, Calibri.
He is unequipped and ill-skilled to make ANY adult decisions. It's not that he's a people pleaser, it's that he has no scruples and has absolutely no idea in the world who he is, what he stands for or what he wants.
Does he have a favorite color without someone telling him what it is? Has he always been like this or just recently?
When he's with you he says he wants to work on things.
When he's away from you he's signing up on a tinder.
When he's with the therapist he now needs boundaries and a mediator for any kind of communication with you.
When he's with his parents he's been lying to you about his needs because he doesn't want to hurt your feelings.
He can't think for himself, decide what HE wants.
Nicely put. Phew. I really wish we could all go have this conversation properly over some drinks.
Calibiri-
First of all - major kudos to you for all the work and effort you have put into this.
When I see someone like you, and read your age and the fact that you have no major entanglements (i.e. kids) - my first thought as I read the story is "Run. Seriously. Just Run". I'm a bit curmudgeonly... I'm in awe that you were willing to put in the work to try and make it better.
I know you're hurting right now. But... though, hold your head high....you deserve it.
Oh dear. This totally [censored] for you, Calibri, and I'm so sorry you are going through this. WTF are his parents thinking?
Ss's post was on the mark. Calibri (and Zelda) - I think you need to go NC and focus on you for a while. Embrace the opportunity to play by your rules and do things you love to do. The R will sort itself out in time. We'll all be ok.
Raliced - yeah, I've often wondered if people with kids think those of us without kids are a bit crazy for doing all this. I agree it will certainly be easier for us to run for the hills and not look back! But emotionally I think this experience is pretty similar for us. It's the investment in the R that is really what counts here. I've been with my H for 15 years. That's still hard to walk away from emotionally, even if it is easier from a practical standpoint.
C,
Honey, I am so so sorry for the latest development in your sitch. Enbabling parents, uh?
An observation from my perch and please feel free to correct me if I'm way off base. It seems to me that your H is an easily impressionable person. Meaning that he absorbs whatever thoughts and ideas from others and acts them out instead of owning them as his. To me, it screams a person with low self-confidence. Right? Wrong?
Has H always been this way with his family? Throughout the M?
Also I get the sense that H desperately DOES NOT WANT to come across as the bad guy in breaking up the M hence the mental gymanstics with semantics and hair splitting comments.
Raliced - yeah, I've often wondered if people with kids think those of us without kids are a bit crazy for doing all this. I agree it will certainly be easier for us to run for the hills and not look back! But emotionally I think this experience is pretty similar for us. It's the investment in the R that is really what counts here. I've been with my H for 15 years. That's still hard to walk away from emotionally, even if it is easier from a practical standpoint.
Just for the record- I don't think you all are crazy at all. I actually
respect what you are willing to do.
When I say hold you head high, I mean it sincerely.
C, I've obviously identified with you and have been following your sitch for a long time. Really feel like we've stated this journey together so again this really [censored] [censored] and I am truly sorry for this. I've been re-thinking of your sitch today and am going to play devils advocate for lack of better words..because my first reaction was also WTF?! Now I'm trying to take a step back and think a little
What did H really do wrong. He lied about what he was doing as far as online dating site and was flirting with OW and continued to lie until caught red handed. Obviously a pretty [censored] up move. But a lot of people, if not almost all, on this site have H/W in EA or PA's. Most lied until they got caught and are all still in them. So is this really uncommon or is this just the absolute one thing you will not tolerate, even if what he did boils down to continuously lying and flirting with random women via phone.
You said the one thing your boundary was when you were first S was you both will not date Other people. But isn't one of the first rules, don't believe anything they say? To include what he says about people pleasing or sort of wanting to go to counseling or work on M? By the time you guys separated, H was already lost in the sauce and had no idea what he was saying...I don't think he ever meant this promise because he was already in the fog.
As for his parents, good move on blocking them. But don't believe anything they say either...they're his parents and most parents, regardless of our R with in laws. Will defend their son or daughter first no matter what. There are few, I think, that actually side with the LBS, because it's their kid making the decision to leave the M...so they'll support that. Maybe I'm biased because my W mother is absolutely horrible with all this and I had a decent relationship with her.
As far as NC, I'd probably suggest that as well...maybe go completely dark for yourself, take a vacation if you can, anything to get your mind off this...I'm so sorry C. I know how much work and effort you put into this, I can see how much you've grown and all the books and sites you read.
To sum up this essay, I think at the end iof the day, H continuously lied about being on dating site and flirting with women, and said a bunch of crap about people pleasing..which we know WAS say all kinda of [censored]. So is what he did really uncommon and is it really something you won't push past?
You know of all people i stand by whatever you decide to do, an wish nothing but the absolute best for you..but these are just some thoughts after I've digested you sitch for a couple days. Praying for you.
Just for the record- I don't think you all are crazy at all. I actually
respect what you are willing to do.
When I say hold you head high, I mean it sincerely.
Oh, I know you meant it that way, Raliced, and it's nice to hear! Thank you.
I've noticed that people in general (not specifically you) are a little quicker dropping the "you should just cut and run" comment for us youngens without kids. In one way I know there's some truth to that statement, maybe even a bit of envy as it would be much easier for us to do it compared to those with kids. On the other hand it makes me cringe a bit as it dismisses the fact that we too have a need to grieve and an opportunity to grow though this experience. I was glad when Maybell said something to KGirl about the time investment she put in her R - it was longer than some others on here and its naturally going to be difficult to move forward. Easier once divorced perhaps, but still difficult processing the immediate situation. In reality, I doubt any of us would have predicted that we'd be willing or capable of standing this long but here we are so we keep on truckin' along with everyone else!
Anyway, back to Calibri....and thanks again for acknowledging our efforts, Raliced!
Wow...it sounds like he is waffling all over the place. How can you possibly trust anything that comes our of his mouth. It does sound like he has no idea who he is what he wants. He just morphs into whatever is expected at the time.
His parents are over involved. This may be the root of his issues. I have adult children and would never get involved in their person relationships like that. I would have told my son to man up and figure things out and go talk to you.
So you really want a man child as a husband? He needs IC to grow up and stand on his own two feet. So sorry you are hurting.
Hi Calibri
I'm so sorry for recent developments - you must be reeling after that. I posted a reply to you on my sitch before reading this. If it helps at all, I heard that our R was 'over' through a mutual friend back in November. H had told me the previous month that he was 'lost and confused' and 'not moving right now' in terms of making a decision. Our contact is dim/dark atm.
He hadn't asked our friend to tell me that it was over, but she felt awful 'knowing' and 'knowing that I didn't know.' I told her that I would be grateful if she didn't tell him she had told me. I said to her that I was sure if he had made a decision, he would tell me herself. She agreed with this.
He never has told me since, and we are two months further on now! It sounds like your H is all over the place, and IMO, whilst he may be asking his parents for help, they should only be supporting from behind and not doing what they have done - totally inappropriate.
Also, I'm with Ganbite on the no kids comments. H and I don't have kids, but I have known SS since he was 3, and lived with him at weekends since he was 7 (he's 14 now.) I know not having kids together means there could be a 'clean break,' but that's still hard to come to terms with. I'll still post the 6 factors later as promised, just in case it's of any use.
Sending you my very best wishes, Toots x
So, in terms of the 6 reasons above, advice is as follows:
1) Doesn't have tools. Don't reinforce the stereotype, telling him to 'man up,' 'grow a spine' or similar. Encourage him to open up and express his feelings. Model what he should be doing. Acknowledge and name the feeling you are seeing. 'I know this is difficult, painful, overwhelming etc.' and persevere. Sit with him and witness these difficult emotions. Don't try to rescue or attack. Let Pandora's box be opened.
2) Lying. Take everything he says with a HUGE pinch of salt. (I hate you, I'll do anything to save our M.) If he's routinely lying to you and himself, how can he know how he feels? Best to live with the uncertainty for a while, rather than being let down, or swallowing what he says whole and turning a catastrophe into a crisis.
3) People pleaser. This behaviour goes back a long way probably - he may still try and appease his mother. If you become assertive yourself, it is easier for him to become assertive. And next time you find out about 'secret texting to OW', don't think 'this is the end' think 'what else would he do, he's a people pleaser.' It's hard to turn from a people pleaser into an assertive person and will take time.
4) Technology - Most couples could benefit from a rethink about smartphone etiquette. Not when we eat, go on a date, in the bedroom etc..We're tethered to our phones and may be on call 24/7. We are often 'absent' to those we are with. Where M is in crisis, or after an A, it's important to agree technology boundaries. But if your S agrees to stay off SN sites after an A, don't sit there browsing FB yourself.
5) Shame - keep any criticism/concerns specific and targeted to the behaviour. Use the formula - I feel....when you....because. Eg: I feel annoyed when you come home late without calling, bacause I don't know when to eat. Also, follow up with reassurance - I know you're a good man etc. Don't get trapped in a downward shame spiral where your complaints prompt more of the same 'medicating' behaviour. Eg: I'm a bad man, unlovable, so I'll start dating online to get affirmation and approval.
6) Fear - Why doesn't he just stop running and face his fears? Problem is, you're also frightened, and you lash out or make threats. Best to wait until you can calmly discuss your fears and ha can express his. Remember, he is just as frightened as you, and if you can find common ground - acknowledging you are both in a fearful place - you lay the foundations for tackling this as a team.
Hope this is useful to someone. Toots x
hi all
Thank you for your support. It really means a lot to me. Most of you asked the se
questions so I'll just answer them all here.
1) can I get past this/where am I with all this?
With the Facebook message to the OW. It was in December. This were not good between us in December. The messages on H's end were flirty, but nothing like sexting or anything like that. The tinder thing, that, most likely
No. Had it been Sep-Dec when things were horrific between us, maybe. But to be active on the app, the same day he told me "let's work on things" - no. Absolutely not. And of course, I have no way of knowing what time he was on tinder in relations to having the conversation with me. Yes, he's deleted the app and y friended the OW off Facebook. But it's still there. We had an agreement in our M about no EA, no PA nothing. That if it got to that point, we would have the respect to talk to one another and try and work it out and if it couldn't be worked out, we would seperate. When my H started acting weird in August, I snooped. There was nothing to indicate anything. When he moved out, this wasn't supposed to be a seperation, it was suppost to be a "he's getting his head on straight." And then the spew and anger started. But whe he moved out, I asked him if he wanted to see other people during the seperation and he said no. That he didn't have the emotional capacity to do it. He reiterated that multiple times over the months. And then he got caught. And now he has holled himself up and is refusing to speak to me in any capacity because of his "boundary that his therapist said he needed to set." Which translates to: this gives me the perfect excuse to hide and not have to explain my shitty behavior to you.
2) Where am I at? I'm shell shocked. Numb. Flabbergasted. He lies to me. He knew what my boundaries were and he went past them anyway, seperated or not. He lied to me about wanting to work on things. He led me on because he didn't want to hurt me and so he created a false reality to buy himself time.
Time for what? I don't know. To figure out how to get out of the marriage, to find another woman - so I would file, and he wouldn't have to. I don't know. He's lying to everyone. His parents told me, in their self righteous conversation towards me, that H had warned me at the beginning of out relationship that he had a bad temper (he never did) and that at any point if I felt unsafe, he instructed me to run far away from him and and never come back because he couldn't be trusted
With my safety. (This was never discussed, ever. I have never been afraid of my husband. Afraid for him, yes. Afraid of him, no. Not that I condone physical
Violence, but I am completely self assure that should a physical altercation break out, that I could handle myself. But that's neither here nor there.) H also lies to his parents saying that he had given me multiple chances to reconcile with me,
That we had gone out to dinner multiple times, and talked multiple times and Everytime we talked or for together, it ended up In a nasty altercation. Not true at all. We went to dinner once. We went to lunch, once. He hasn't lost his temper towards me since November. We've had a solid month of good conversations. Were there bumps in the road and misunderstandings, sure. But nothing that his parents are saying. He lied to them about what's going on, he's lied to me. It's all lies.
I just can't, y'all. I can't. I've tried so hard since BD to work on myself and to work on things. I've really started to make some breakthroughs and changing behavior. My H even noticed and commented and said how great of a job I was doing at working on myself. To have the lies, to have his parents tell me we are getting a divorce, to hide when things are going wrong. To lead me down the path of reconciliation with no intent to do so? That's not someone I can be married to. Even if he were to change, even if he completely changed and became what I needed, I wouldn't be able to trust a word that came out of his mouth. And with his parents in the picture, our R would be teetering on the edge of a sword. His parents and the [censored] up relationship that he has with them is more powerful and more dangerous than any OW. In fact, his parents are the OW, in a sense. Have alway interfered, always manipated, always controlled things.
H wants their approval so much that he will sacrifice a marriage fr it.
Speaking of his parents. It took everything I had not to come through the phone and strangle his mother when she told me that I should, "feel lucky that she was telling me that I was getting a divorce, because most people walk out and they never get any closure, and the next time they hear from someone it's from a lawyer." I told her that she must be so proud of both of her sons, because they both walked out of their marriages and she was now financially supporting her grown ass children who couldn't do the decent thing in life, and that my H
Should have the decency to talk to me, and she should
Have the decency to stay out of it, because she was coddling him and encouraging her sons to continue to make shifty choices in life. And that bitch had the nerve to tell me that what my H did wasn't adultery and that I didn't get to Mae the relationship rules. And I told her right back that she didn't get to decide for me what was acceptable to me personally in my
Marriage and that I wasn't making any rules, just expecting common decency from my H.
She also alledged that he had met another woman at work and she was encouraging him to file for divorce. Would love clarification in that. Doubt I'll ever get it.
3) people pleasing/low self esteem. Yes, my H has always been a people pleaser. It stems from low self esteem. Which stems from his mother being a raging alcoholic and drug addict and having to take care of her and parent here while he was a child. SS hit the nail on the head with her post. When he as with me, he was one way, with his parents, another way. With his IC another way. I always noticed how he would morph his personality to suit the group of people around him. When he's around his parents, he becomes really crude and "good ol counry boy" because that's who his parents are. When we were with friends at crossfit, he was friends with a lot of "bro" type dudes and would act accordingly. When he was around me, he took on traits of my personality.
H doesn't know who he is, or what he wants. I believe he desperately doesn't want to be the bad person here, and like Wonka posted, is really back peddling over samantics and what not.
The bottom line is this: H does not know who he is. He may never know who he is. He will stay in the toxic relationship with his parents
Because he wants their love and approval. He will the now me away for it.
I am so much better than this. I love him, I do love him with everything I have, everything I am. But my trust is shattered. I am broken. He has broken me. He is not what I want in a partner. He is not someone who I can trust anymore. Hell, he won't even talk to me. He isn't begging to get back with me. It's all been pretty words and lies to buy himself time to figure out how to get out of this.
He's made many mistakes in our marriage. Things that lesser people would get divorced over. And I always gave him the benefit of the doubt and have him second chances. And the moment he started being unhappy in our relationship, he didn't have the strength to speak up. Instead he checked out and blames me and eventually melted down and destroyed everything in the process.
He gets to walk away and leave behind everything. Me. Our dogs, our house, our lives. It's all collateral damage to him. He gets to go out and do whatever he wants. He has mommy to bank roll him.
I'm left behind trying to figure out how to out our house on the market, where I can live, how to do this all.
How to start my life over.
(PS, I typed this all on my phone so please excuse errors and what not)
And from a completely stupid standpoint, I really don't want to have papers filed against me. I so do not want to have the sheriffs department come to my place of employment to hand me the paperwork that's going to start the process of ending my marriage. But really, my marriage is over. So what the hell does it matter.
I've had enough humiliation.
And in the horror story that has become my life this weekend, another close friend came up to me today while I was working out (he knows what's going on, including latest development) and told me that several of the people I worked out with, have seen out and about at the bars drinking. No mention if there were OW, and honestly at this point, it doesn't matter. But my god, he portrayed
himself as someone who could barely get out of bed. So depressed. Barely functioning. In such a deep hole.
I feel like I've been punched in the face multiple times.
I know believe half of what they say, blah blah. But he was in the house last week, fixing [censored] for me. Unasked. He told me we were going to work on it. He told me he wanted to see me in my competition in April. And with one text message it's all gone. All gone.
I know I'm in shock. But I can't. This isn't the man I married. Even at BD and all his anger he communicated with me, even at his angriest. Now it's reduced to no contact and using his mommy to do his dirty work.
Jesus.
Hey Calibri. I've followed your sitch from the beginning and have just had not much to contribute. But I would like to share a few ramblings at this time.
First and foremost, I'M SORRY you're here. There is nothing worse I can think of. There are other worse losses I'm sure, yet there is something about this type of betrayal and loss that shatters your belief in the universe and humanity. I don't know you but I'm sending you tons of support.
As for your sitch, I don't have any specific feedback. I have thought a lot about the patterns I've seen on DB forums and in my own sitch. What I've noticed is that no one can really understand at the beginning how gone things really are.
Yes, we tell ourselves that the old M is dead.
We try to let go.
We try to understand aliens posses our WAS.
We try to do all of these things. Yet the denial/bargaining/anger of our grieving process can't be bypassed. We're human, and it's what humans do.
What that means is that even when we are telling ourselves we're letting go and accepting the reality, we are still looking for signs that it might be able to work. That's denial. We still think maybe we can make changes that will turn it around. That's bargaining. We still get hurt and then angry when it doesn't work that way and when we feel the betrayal. That's obviously anger.
It's almost like there are two phases of DBing. The first phase, which can last a 1-6 months after initial BD (or- shudder- longer) in which people THINK they are DBing. Then there's another BD...something more extreme which finally breaks through the denial and proves that this is a reality. Then another round of DBing begins.
Look at Pink's thread. She is just going through this now with the confirmed A.
In my thread I thought I was DBing for a few months and 'making progress', it all blew up with a confirmed A and a suicide attempt, followed by some other extreme aftermath.
So all I can say is that this really, really, really [censored] and I'm really sorry you're here. Just know that it will be easier to move forward on your own and accept that the M is done, and that this was necessary for your own acceptance of that fact. I'm not telling you that there's 0% that you'll ever meet in the future, only that this is what is meant when they say your old M is dead. There is no saving anything and you will have to get divorced, learn to be on your own, grieve that loss, start your new life, and not look back. Maybe someday the person you become and the person he becomes will cross again, but you could say that about your first boyfriend too. Time to move forward.
See my post on It Hurt's thread for a look at what the next 3 months will look like. It will get easier. For now you have a lot to process. A lot of emotion. Totally understandable. Get it out here, and know that we feel your pain and care about you.
Calibri
I have just read through your threads. I know that all of this is very confusing, hurtful and bewildering. It all seems very bleak and grim. Telling you that this is just a moment, a bottom in a long journey may be lacking comfort and peace.
This is what V understands, these WAS and waywards are very confused, sad and lost. One minute up, one minute down, running around like headless chickens. They seek an answer from this and then from that. An OP may distract them but then they want the comfort of their M. They need AD, IC, MC, S or D and then they do not. They are persuaded by X and the next minute Y.
If you are trying to understand this behaviour, monitor it, comfort when down and get angry when up then stop. Following will keep you locked in chasing a headless chicken up and down a spiral maze of cheese less tunnel.
STOP.
There is no sense in non sense. Calibri there is nothing you can do for H but let him alone to work his way through it. H is separate to you and you are separate to H. This H needs and wants to be left to work his way through his cheese less tunnel. Expect a long long wait and nothing else. H will pull you and then push you and perhaps without knowing why he does that.
Please do DB for you and not for your M or so your H will notice.
There is no explaining Your H behaviour, reactions or anything else. H is lost to himself. For your own sake let him be and look after Calibri. You may never know nor may your H the reasons for any of it. Those are past and all you have is today.
Seek extra legal advice and protect yourself. Your H may get influenced in ways that surprise you so buckle down to the practicalities of looking after you. If you and H become one again then you will be glad you did this.
V would love to comfort you, give you answers and instead V is saying look after Calibri. Practice Sandi guidelines in full for you.
Labug has given you very wise counsel to go dark for your own sake and to enable you to get some space and detatchment. Please follow her advice, a 180 for you to really go dark for your own sake and not for H.
I wish you peace of mind and light.
Vanilla
Couple of quick thoughts -
Sounds like he learned to twist and turn and play semantics games from his mom, who simply excels if she can draw a framework where you're making 'rules' and his behavior is acceptable. Or hers. You can't argue with that kind of stupid. Some people are masters at drawing others into a seemingly reasonable sounding conversation and it's more like a fun house of mirrors, distortion, crazy-making twists and turns.
I know it is driving you crazy to think of all he said, did, all the conflicts. But to him, it was probably all true. He did want to help you, see you at your competition. He did want to work things out. He did want to explore the idea of other people. Want his boundaries, a divorce. It doesn't align and make any sense, and Idk if there are lies there, as much as the jumble in his own head. We all know how many thoughts and disparate feelings can exist beside each other. Most of us try not to inflict that mess on the people we love and speak before we can stand by our words.
I am so very sorry for all you're going through now.
Hi Calibri,
I am sorry things are this bad. It's very hard to face all the lies and even worse to try to understand why someone would choose to go that path. You invested a lot of patient and care for a person that stabbed you in the back.
I get to the conclusion that is just very impossible to understand sick people, and our Hs are sick at the moment. There is a time in life that all our lives crumble and we look at ourselves and try to make some sense of all it is.
For some sane people it goes more smooth, looking for options to get better and succeed in a decent way, but for others they get mixed up in old hurts, patterns of disillusion and pain.
Your H has a pair of unfortunately parents, they are not helping him, they are destroying him instead. All what they are doing is to add to his low self esteem, his insecurities. Maybe one day your H will be able to cut the umbilical cord and decide his own life, but we have no idea when he will be ready to do so.
You are a very decent and smart person, but it's very hard to just let go. I myself have been going to similar feelings right now. I am simply very hurt. All the lies, all the cover ups, the nice words, the "I care about you", I don't what to hurt you further, all the BS keeps boiling inside us.
The bottom line at all this comes to that road of decisions, we have our morals, we know what we want, we have been working on ourselves because we know we are not angels, we become better and believe that all people can go through such time of developing themselves. But then we need to face that our partner is no longer walking that path. They get lost, they want to walk some other road, that we don't even see how they will benefit from it.
I have been getting many advice and support from this board and I believe I can be happier if I listen to it. Our partners have to walk whatever it is by themselves, and we need to keep improving our own lives so we can be whole with or without them.
Now, it comes to the crossroads of decisions. Do I file for D? do I file Legal Separation? Do I wait and assume the financial risks? Or do I file to protect myself? Now the emotional side gets crumbled into the practical side. If you wait you feel stupid and have the constant fear of losing even further. If you think to file then the pain of seeing it so final starting eating your life away.
For me I have another take on the Kids issue. I feel that because I have kids it is somewhat easier to decide to serve papers to my H. I feel the obligation to ignore all my feelings and to think very practical of how to protect my children against my sick H. All his actions are all over the place, I do not know who this man is anymore, so I feel justified to file the legal separation and take care after the ones that can't protect themselves.
You see, it's all so complicated because of our hearts. Selena Gomez has a song where she says that there is all the reasons to get away but "The heart wants what it wants". If we could just off the heart, it would all be so much easier.
So, what to do. I guess there is no easy way out here. We need to grief, cry, feel sad and we need to force ourselves to go out, dress better, eat better, surround ourselves with good listening friends, we need to ask for help and let other people help us. We need to get in touch with our inside, our deepest values and them make some sense of why we need to stand tall.
We need to look at all the scenarios and take the decision of a practical point of view. The real deal is that there are the ones before us that are in a better place even with a bad outcome. I guess if you have yourself, then you can always find peace and happiness somewhere else, or go back to your H in the future in a different R.
I say this to you and to myself as well... give yourself time, practice every day to enjoy yourself, think about what exactly is hurting you. Think if it all boils to a point of what you have as an impression of a M/R and what is real about your partner. Go dark, NC for your own sake. It's the hardest part of the DBing, is to really understand to respect ourselves and live our lives. Is to lose control of all what is related to our partners, is to let go and take good care after what we want and who we are.
I am, for the first time in my entire life, learning this. It's awkward at first, but slowly it start making more and more sense. And it's somewhat possible we will be more attractive if we get stronger and stand by ourselves. Read 25 and get some ideas there. That lady did it, she is a tough baby.
My heart goes out to you, I know exactly how hard it is to be lied to, betrayed, hurt... but C still have herself, her high values, her charm and a lot of life to live. It's time to take care after yourself and let H walk his path. Maybe it's the only way to get him back, it to let him go.
XOXO (((((((((Calibri))))))))))
Pink
Appointment to see an attorney this afternoon to draw up separation papers. I have to protect myself financially.
This is not what I want. But it's what I have to do to protect myself.
He's not coming back. He's too lost. I'm too broken.
All he had to do was trust in me years ago to say, "hey, I'm not happy with some things, lets work on it."
And instead he ignored it, and let it fester and now I'm seeing a lawyer and trying to figure out how to pull myself back together again.
I know I'm saying the same drabble over and over again. I just cannot believe I'm where I'm at.
Appointment to see an attorney this afternoon to draw up separation papers. I have to protect myself financially.
This is not what I want. But it's what I have to do to protect myself.
He's not coming back. He's too lost. I'm too broken.
All he had to do was trust in me years ago to say, "hey, I'm not happy with some things, lets work on it."
And instead he ignored it, and let it fester and now I'm seeing a lawyer and trying to figure out how to pull myself back together again.
I know I'm saying the same drabble over and over again. I just cannot believe I'm where I'm at.
(((hugs), Calibri.
I get it. You know I do.
The part that gets to me the most is the "
let's work on it" part. The implication that we could have worked TOGETHER to make things better. Instead I got the "
YOU work on it" and then he went to work.
The resentment is rearing its ugly head again. Blah.
Let's not wallow, though, Calibri. The vacuuming can wait. What are you doing tonight after work?
Appointment to see an attorney this afternoon to draw up separation papers. I have to protect myself financially.
This is not what I want. But it's what I have to do to protect myself.
He's not coming back. He's too lost. I'm too broken.
All he had to do was trust in me years ago to say, "hey, I'm not happy with some things, lets work on it."
And instead he ignored it, and let it fester and now I'm seeing a lawyer and trying to figure out how to pull myself back together again.
I know I'm saying the same drabble over and over again. I just cannot believe I'm where I'm at.
Calibri, practical is very good, knowing where you stand is in my book essential. Then you can make informed choices and are ready to act when the time is right (I hope it never is). You will then know what the consequences of backing off are too, which if you are unsure is also a valid choice.
If you feel you need a second or third L opinion get one, understand your position even if you are feeling emotionally raw. If unsure of filing you need not act but you will know what to do to protect yourself. Knowledge is power.
Vanilla
Vanilla
(((hugs), Calibri.
I get it. You know I do.
The part that gets to me the most is the "let's work on it" part. The implication that we could have worked TOGETHER to make things better. Instead I got the "YOU work on it" and then he went to work.
The resentment is rearing its ugly head again. Blah.
Let's not wallow, though, Calibri. The vacuuming can wait. What are you doing tonight after work?
I understand Ss. I am so upset. How does someone not say anything and then be done? It's a pattern. He did it to his ex-fiance, and how he's doing it to me.
I'm going to be someone's ex-wife. Typing that makes me want to throw up. Like projectile vomit.
What it boils down to is this -- from best I can understand. He doesn't know what he wants in life. With ANYTHING. This whole trying to work on things with me this month. I think Zelda hit the nail on the head. He wanted to talk, he wanted to see me compete -- I think he wanted those things when they were effortless and easy. But, and this is where it gets cloudy, I don't think he knows if he wants to work on it because he wants to be with me, or because he's wanting to people please me. And if it's the latter, it isn't fair to either one of us.
But my god, it hurts SO BAD.
Last night I went and worked out -- and cried on the running part of the workout. But it was dark and outside and no one could see.
And then I came home and sobbed on the phone to my sil (who just filed for separation herself, from my H's brother), my mom, and another friend.
This all could have been avoidable. This is all bullshit.
Calibri, practical is very good, knowing where you stand is in my book essential. Then you can make informed choices and are ready to act when the time is right (I hope it never is). You will then know what the consequences of backing off are too, which if you are unsure is also a valid choice.
If you feel you need a second or third L opinion get one, understand your position even if you are feeling emotionally raw. If unsure of filing you need not act but you will know what to do to protect yourself. Knowledge is power.
Vanilla
Vanilla
Hi Vanilla,
Thank you for stopping by my posts. I appreciate it - and always enjoy reading your posts on other people's threads. You're so much fun.
Now that H's mentally ill, unstable mother has inserted herself into our business, and H has gone off the grid, I have to put things into play at least to cover myself financially in case H starts accumulating debt, etc. It also protects H as well.
It's not what I want. But sometimes in life, we have to do things in life that we don't want to do. The paperwork is started. We still have eight months to go before anyone can file for divorce.
Time is there.
But I don't think time is going to heal this wound.
Hi all:
General update because I'm at work, and I actually HAVE to get work done, as opposed to yesterday where I just stared at the screen of my computer.
First: thank you to everyone who has stopped in and commented. I appreciate you all. Everyone has made good points. I apologize that I haven't been active on other people's threads. I'm just shell shocked right now.
I went to the lawyer and discussed my options. The best solution is for me to file for legal separation, which will protect assets and decide how we will split things, should we divorce. The Lawyer is going to send a letter to my H, basically saying, it is the understanding of my client (me) that you no longer wish to remain married and thus my client has started the process, blah blah, you have a week to have you or your representative work with us or we escalate to the next step.
The letter is going to be delivered to his work through certified mail, which MORTIFIES me, for him. But as I don't know where he now lives (he moved out of his hotel room ---hooooray), and I didn't want it sent to his work email, the only other options were to mail it to him, or have him pick it up at the lawyers office. I may asked them to give that option. I don't know.
I really, really would like to speak to him before these get delivered to him. Because I think it's the adult thing to do. I wouldn't want to get papers delivered out of nowhere, even if he was planning on starting the paperwork himself.
The more and more I've talked to my mom, my SIL, my friends, people who know him, the more we are baffled that he would ask/let his mom do the dirty work. It's just not his character. Especially when he knows how much I dislike his mother. We're wondering if H mentioned in a distressed conversation with his mother about being busted for the online dating, etc that we were probably heading towards D and she took it upon herself to deliver the news. She's a vindictive B like that. But the fact of the matter is, H knows she delivered the news to me, he hasn't retreated that or apologized, so I guess we will take it at face value.
I shouldn't care, really, how he finds out about the paperwork. But, I guess I have more poise and grace than he or his family - I would never have my mother call and do my dirty work. I feel we owe it to our relationship to have a conversation about this. So he's just not sitting at work all happy go lucky and then opens up a letter that just blows up his own world. I wasn't give that courtesy, but I feel he's owed it.
So I emailed him - at work - since he has now blocked me from all aspects of communication, and asked if he would call me on his lunch break. That I had a time sensitive manner to discuss that had to be done over the phone. He responded -- he can't do it, he's off site in meetings all day and riding with people, but he'll see what he can do to text me later.
Fine. If that's how you want it, that's how you get it.
It's just SOOOOOOO TACKY.
I don't even know what to say. Probably something along the lines of, I don't want this - but I respect that this is the path he wants to go down.
And, maybe it's mind reading -- but it is. He got caught. He started flip flopping about what he wanted. First it was he didn't want to work on the M, and then it was he did want to work on the M and then is was, he felt pressured to work on the M and then it was you can't talk to me anymore because my IC says we suck at communication and this is my boundary and you will abide by it, but I do think we should go to MC to see if we can sort ourselves out, to radio silence to his mother calling and gleefully telling me I'm getting divorced.
There's a small part of me that hopes this will jerk him awake and he has some sort of revelation.
The reality is, he will probably be so relieved that he wasn't the bad guy, and I will likely never hear from him again.
There's so much that would have to be overcome on both sides for this to work. And I don't think he will do it. I don't think he has the tools to do it.
And I don't think he wants to do it.
I should've listened to him back in September when he told me he was done. I should've just accepted it and let it go. Instead I stood for myself and our M. And for what? To have it end by my psychotic mother in law telling me over the phone because my H is hiding from me. To having to take PTO to go to lawyers offices to protect myself because I have no idea what's coming next and I can't trust anyone to do the right thing.
This is not what I wanted. This is not what I want. But this is what it is.
I hate all of this.
C, if he was sitting beside you right now telling you he was willing to work on it, how would you feel then? And came back with all of his shattered pieces to lay them at your feet, say I don't know who I am or what I want, will you accept this and that and maybe some of that, and what the next years are going to look like? Will you trust me enough to sign up for more? Or not, depending on how I feel in my next sentence? My guess is you might feel just as or probably more nauseous than you do now? (ask me how I know.)
There's no time machine, love. Neither one of you can un-do this, no matter how you package, or with whatever tact. He doesn't deserve any, and there you go, it's a 180 for you to deliver without a lot of padding and considerate framing.
I told a stranger who did my nails this weekend that my H was trying to break up with me. And it sounded so cute and innocent and we laughed so hard. What magic in that acceptance. She told me about a place called Hostel in the Woods in GA that I think I'm going to head to real soon.
Of course this isn't what you want and it hurts. (hugs) You're not responsible for helping him find the tools or himself. You gotta keep on with you. Let go of the stigma of being a divorced woman - those discarded feelings aren't for someone like you. You may be a divorced woman, not because of lack of effort or heart, but because you gave it all and had to choose life. A friend of mine told me that if this continued, I would be destroyed, and no one wanted to see me lose myself like that. Imagine that some day this will be a period of your life you're thankful for, and have moved past.
Arms open for the good that is ahead for you. You got this.
C you stood for your M because you wanted it, and I believe still want, it to work. You wanted to know that if it ended you did everything in the world possible an in your power to make sure you gave it your all. You will never regret that choice, no matter the outcome.
I can't even imagine how hard it was for you to have filed for S to protect your assets but if you aren't sure of what will happen, that's probably te best...
What's next for you? Next step in all this? I don't think you should stop DBing because at te end of the day, it's still for you. Echoing Zelda, would you take him back if this shocks him into reality?
Calibri
Today is today. Sounds obvious really when put that way!
Please look after today and when you get to tomorrow that will be today! Look after that day. One day at a time.
In these sitches with these complicated wayward spouses with multiple issues there is no knowing what will happen, good or bad. No sense in fretting over it.
We do what we do for today.
Vanilla
Ok ya'll, I feel so manic right now. Please bear with me.
I need support. H surprisingly agreed to meet me tonight to talk about the time sensitive matter (shocked the hell out of me, I asked for a phone call or in person -- he said in person. I'll roll with it, until he backs out) (IE: me letting him know I filed for separation, and to clarify how he would like to get the paperwork). I know this is a little odd as I had to pull the trigger first and most of us are on the receiving end of the news I'm about to give to my H.
Having said this -- how do I do this? What do I say? I want to be totally DBesq. I want to do this in a dignified manner that leaves the door open for either of us, should we want to revisit down the road. We have eight months before we can file for D.
For some reason, I am caught up in the delivery of this. I think it's because I honor and respect him enough to talk to his face. And while he doesn't necessarily deserve the respect that I'm giving him.....I was was raised better than this. I am better than this. And I'm not going to stoop to his mothers/his level.
On the plus side, I was out of clean work clothes, so I inadvertently look stunning in a form fitting little back dress and boots that H has always found incredibly hot.
----
And on a completely unrelated note -- I signed up for a personal dressing website that chooses clothes for you online. I got my first delivery this morning. The note from the stylist said, "this blue and black top would look super cute with jeans and heals for a date night."
The irony is not lost on me. At all.
well, Calibri, I can't advise you because I'm in the same predicament...
How do I talk to this man?
I like the idea that you're preparing to be dignified and respectful. Remember to validate but don't feel the need to explain yourself excessively.
Beyond that, I'm following this thread because I need similar advice.
Hang in there. We're jumping together, Calibri.
Hi Calibri, a couple of weeks ago, I was setting out points that I would want to make in the event I ask my H for a D...if you want to have a look in the infidelity section.
Good luck for tonight x
I'm sure you go there with the intention of talking, but try to go there to listen. DB advises that any meeting should be seen as information gathering. There seems to be a lot unsaid between the two of you.
First, you should check all the information that you have. From what I understand, HE hasn't told you directly that he wants to D. You heard it from his mom and you have some way to know HE knows what his mom told you. Hence, try to calmly verify this information. Ask if he told his mom to call you, ask what he told her to say, etc. I've been surprised countless times when I asked for clarifications from the source — my interpretation was all wrong, as clear as it was to me.
Also, you're very forceful and now you're upset. And you're facing a people pleaser. To me, the biggest risk is that he'll tell you what you want to hear (then change it tomorrow). You'll need to come across as accepting and especially not upset, whatever he tell you. You need to take it with a poker face so that he keeps talking. This is how you'll know what he really wants. Not by saying "Tell me the truth this time!" He'll just try to tell you what you want to hear so that you don't get more upset. The way you describe his mom, I'm not surprised he has developed this coping mechanism over the years.
This gives you the option of waiting until later, when you have verified all the information, to tell him that you have filed. Perhaps you'll change your mind, perhaps you'll decide to wait. I just hope you can be patient for a few minutes before you drop it.
Seen from here, you're very impulsive. You'll probably disagree, but filing within days because he had some flirty exchanges and tried to cover them is way below the standards of this board and, more importantly, the timeline is not what's advisable. You need to absorb any information and not jump to conclusions ("It's over! This is my life! We're done!") until you have digested it and gained some perspective. I told you before that you are controlling and this reaction is yet another example. You're taking back control of the whole thing under the guise of "protecting yourself". You couldn't wait for him to serve you the papers. You've not described any behavior from H that suggests he's a threat to you. My WAW has been gone for over 4 months and yet I haven't filed anything because I don't see any threats and I've been right so far. So it's not a catch-all excuse, it needs to be demonstrated as relevant to your case.
Come to think of it, he just promised his IC that he would not talk to you without an intermediary, yet you ask for a meeting and he agrees. Is it that he really goes along with whatever he's been told last?
I can only suggest that the vets will kick in:
I am uncertain that you are clear enough in your objectives on this. It feels muddled and reactive. A text that you need to have some paperwork sent to him and where would he like it sent. This would be my choice.
I am also concerned that this could go very badly wrong for you. If I were H then this might feel like controlling behaviour. Mza has good analysis on this.
Be clear and factual H , I am arranging to have an agreement drafted and delivered to you in the next x days. Where would you like to have these documents delivered? Shall I use your work address or some other?
You could do this by email or text or let your L do it. My recommendation is to leave this, I feel delivering this news in person might seem vengeful or wanting to view H reaction.
V
I'm sure you go there with the intention of talking, but try to go there to listen. DB advises that any meeting should be seen as information gathering. There seems to be a lot unsaid between the two of you.
Absolutely, it's all about gathering information. I intend to start with that.
First, you should check all the information that you have. From what I understand, HE hasn't told you directly that he wants to D. You heard it from his mom and you have some way to know HE knows what his mom told you. Hence, try to calmly verify this information. Ask if he told his mom to call you, ask what he told her to say, etc. I've been surprised countless times when I asked for clarifications from the source — my interpretation was all wrong, as clear as it was to me.
I agree completely. Thank you for reminding me of those notes.
And you're facing a people pleaser. To me, the biggest risk is that he'll tell you what you want to hear (then change it tomorrow). You'll need to come across as accepting and especially not upset, whatever he tell you. You need to take it with a poker face so that he keeps talking. This is how you'll know what he really wants. Not by saying "Tell me the truth this time!" He'll just try to tell you what you want to hear so that you don't get more upset. The way you describe his mom, I'm not surprised he has developed this coping mechanism over the years.
I agree, and thank you for bringing that point up. I plan on asking and listening. There's no point in asking for the truth, because there's no guarantee that I will get the truth. Or, I may get the version of his truth right now.
This gives you the option of waiting until later, when you have verified all the information, to tell him that you have filed. Perhaps you'll change your mind, perhaps you'll decide to wait. I just hope you can be patient for a few minutes before you drop it.
I'm going to open with him having the opportunity to talk. Trust me, I'm not going to go in there bomb drop all over him. Having been there before, I'm not going to be like "NAH NAH NAH I BEAT YOU NAH NAH."
Seen from here, you're very impulsive. You'll probably disagree, but filing within days because he had some flirty exchanges and tried to cover them is way below the standards of this board and, more importantly, the timeline is not what's advisable. You need to absorb any information and not jump to conclusions ("It's over! This is my life! We're done!") until you have digested it and gained some perspective.
Am I impulsive - sometimes. And I can see why you would see why I am impulsive. And I did point out that it's small potatoes compared to what people are dealing with, what you're dealing with, what SS is dealing with, what Vanilla or T are dealing with. However, I don't feel that my pain and my sitch, are no more, or no less important or worth taking action for or whatever than anyone elses. Honestly? You're making the same statements as my MIL made to me. It doesn't matter if you or anyone else on this board or anyone thinks that because my husband has been lying to me about his whereabouts, about contact with other people, about conducting a flirty relationship, "is way below the standards of this board." What matters is what is acceptable to me as an individual. Wouldn't you agree?
I told you before that you are controlling and this reaction is yet another example. You're taking back control of the whole thing under the guise of "protecting yourself". You couldn't wait for him to serve you the papers.
Yes, You're right Mozza, I am controlling. I admit it. This is controlling. But this is controlling my part of my life. But there are things in our relationship that I haven't mentioned, out of respect to him. The reason I'm moving forward now has a multitude of things, but truly is to protect my assets. I have many. H has none. (So it's protecting him as well) I rely on H's income to maintain our marital home. Should he decide to immediately withdraw it, I would be up the creek without a paddle. H also has a problem with debt and handling finances responsibly. He could be out there as far as I know racking up debts or doing irresponsible things that I would be responsible for because we are legally still married. He has gotten himself into sizeable debt before while we were married that caused problems for us later down the road. His mother offered him money to leave me at one point in time. He didn't even consider it, but what if he's considering it now? The reason I put that out there. Both my H and his brother have left their wives. Stating the same reason, word for word. Both are being "counseled" by their mother. Who has LOTS and LOTS of money and could make both my life and my SIL's a living hell financially. I can't assume that H will continue to do the right thing by me, while he "figures things out." I'm filing for legal separation that allows me financial security -- and allows me, should I choose, to go ahead and make some financial decisions such as getting a new place to live, etc. Should I need to. I'm sure it seems rash. I understand that. I appreciate you calling me out on it. But, Mozza, I come from a divorced family. My father made it a point not to support me and took my mother for everything she was worth. He relished in it. Made it a point. WAS PROUD OF IT. So, perhaps its fear driven. But I have to look out for me, because I'm the only person to look out for. And trust me, I agonized over the decision. The paperwork hasn't been sent yet. The attorney actually just sent it to me for review. Which is why I would like the opportunity to talk to him, to clarify, temp check it before sending it.
Come to think of it, he just promised his IC that he would not talk to you without an intermediary, yet you ask for a meeting and he agrees. Is it that he really goes along with whatever he's been told last?
So this is going to seem like it's splitting hairs. His IC suggested that we not talk without a third party present. H decided that was going to be his new boundary. I truly do not know if that's what he promised IC or not. I did ask for a meeting. Yes, he agreed. And I would I agree that he probably does go along with whatever he's been told last. That's who he is.
---
Mozza,
I do appreciate your feedback and you've given me great insight about people pleasing and things I should look out for.
Vanilla,
I would've texted him and asked, but once he got caught, he blocked me from reaching him via cell phone or text messaging. I had to email him via his work email to ask him to contact me about it. It wasn't something I wanted to send to his work email because I know it's monitored.
He chose the in person route.
I have a feeling he might back out. I'm just keeping an open mind. I'll gather Intel. I'll feel it out. Nothing has been sent yet.
I have a feeling he's going to back out --and that may be ok.
He's refusing to speak to me now. So it'll give him time to so whatever.
And time for me to take a bath and have a glass or two of wine.
Excellent reaction! (not that I encourage excessive alcohol consumption of course...)
How is he refusing to speak to you? By not responding?
He seems very confused and impulsive.
Let me be clear, if your L has advised this course of action and you have considered it coolly and carefully because it protects you from H and MIL, that is a considered position.
It is how that news is delivered that is the issue I am discussing here not the fact of the agreement nor how it is physically delivered by L. As you have now wanted to structure the delivery of the paperwork in a gentler way and H is showing ostrich behaviour then there is little you can do. I still think an email to his work address if that is all you have is the best way, but I would question rushing to advise him of this at this point. I think it is too soon.
Frankly the best time is a few hours before delivery of the paperwork. Why reveal your hand? If this is to protect you and your fins then prewarning is giving reaction space, which could be filled by MIL (if your analysis is correct). Your L is your best guide on this.
H not responding to you may well be the best for both of you. Inadvertently maybe, please let H react and C give yourself space. Stop control of H and his reactions, H is responsible for his choices and the consequences of those choices. Let him be responsible for that. If he is trying to be NC with you for a while then let him. If H has stayed silent on where he lives, kept his number to himself, had his mother call you then he is looking to give himself space to work his stuff. Let him do this and C work on you and your need to control.
The only point of contact is his work then that is what L must use.
Even living in the same house then I let my H have his space. No texts, emails calls or interactions unless on admin. I let H ininiate all contact related matters and no R talk at all. My fins agreement went into place and there was spew for a few weeks, a couple of rants and now it is BAU. I prefer to let H take the lead on this and I will not be abused. Otherwise I listen and validate.
The need to control is a very important one for C, the need for certainty comes from an insecure place. This is an uncertain world where outcomes are unpredictable, detatchment is key. In 12 steps we have the Serenity Prayer it is on the back of all of our literature and I hold it to my heart as wise.
Please grant me the Serenity to change the things I can , the Serenity to accept the things I can not change and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Your burdens will be lighter and you will be serene to let H fall into the category of the things you can not change.
Peace and a restful mind
Vanilla
This is the AA version:
Lord, grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I can not change
COURAGE to change the things I can
And the WISDOM to know the difference.
This is the more well known version than Serenity now.
V
I was taught it was God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change. To change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference,
My Mum was in AA. for many years before she passed. I bought her the praying ( serenity hands) hands that she wore around her neck. We had them added to her grave stone
I was taught it was God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change. To change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference,
My Mum was in AA. for many years before she passed. I bought her the praying ( serenity hands) hands that she wore around her neck. We had them added to her grave stone
Each AA group and GA group seem to have their own version of it. Karma. I typed that version from the back of the AA pamphlet I have here. The version we use is called Serenity now. The words may vary from 12 step to step but the message is the same.
http://www.thevoiceforlove.com/serenity-prayer.htmlThat is beautiful to have this in your life and how serene to have that message in the form of guiding hands on your mums gravestone. I just shed a tear, this is so elegant.
I love the hands, our logo is a life bouy with three sections.
V
Hi Calibri,
My heart goes out to you as I am facing some kind same situation. I will serve the separation papers to my H when he comes back from his trip on feb 15th.
I feel this kind of mixed feelings, most because I really don't want this whole s**t situation in my life. But, protecting myself seems like a better venue right now.
I contacted 3 Ls and they are all in the same page as my rights on the whole legal separation. In my state it does not have much a difference in LS and D, it's just a different decree at the end but the process is exactly the same.
Filing a Legal Separation for me means to make a point that I did not ask for the bloody D and I will not file for it.
The one thing that is helping me a lot is the support of good friends and my faith. I have decided to let myself open for those help because the pain in unbearable.
I do not have much hope, but then if you ready 25, she had neither and she ended up reconciling. Life have many turns and we never know what tomorrow holds for us. It may be that H comes back or maybe we find someone we will love even more and have a better life together then the previous one.
One thing I have seriously been working on is to leg go. It hurts a lot, but I am every day a tiny better. I need to let my H walk his own path and find his own purpose in his life. He is very confused now, I don't believe he is very sure of what he is doing. But he does not want to change all this. He is persisting in the direction he took a few months ago.
So, it's time for me to work on me and walk my path on my own right now. It seems all over the place sometimes, no direction, no meaning... but, there are other times that I find it very comforting to be with myself, to look forward and see the things I want to do, and think that I can do it, I have so much freedom to decide for myself now.
If after exhausting your choices you come to the conclusion that it is in your best interest to file for a legal separation, then do so. It's not the end. Your old marriage is dead anyway, you do not want to go back to what it was. But, down the road, there is always a possibility of getting together and finding a new R, a new love, one more solid and mature. Who knows? everything is possible.
I hope you have a good minute sometimes, a good hour some day, a good day during next week, if you keep choosing to respect yourself and be happy for yourself, every minute, hour and day will count.
Good lucky, we are here for you.
XOXO
Pink
And the verdict is in folks. H is fine with it being delivered to work as he, "has no plans on working on the marriage anymore. Thank you for your understanding."
Via an email.
How are you doing now, what do you feel over this?
Hi Calibri
Well, I think the main thing is, you have been the person you want to be in raising the query with him. If you were a lesser person, you might have enjoyed his potential embarassment at having the papers delivered at work. But this isn't who you are, and so you asked him - because you felt that was the decent and the right thing to do. Good for you....and now you have your response.
My IC said to me recently - at the end of the day Toots, your relationship with yourself is the most important thing here. Not your marriage, or your relationship with your husband. I think she was so right.
Good luck going forwards Calibri :-)
Hey C, I really don't have too much to say other than I've been thinking about your sitch a lot the past few days. I hope you are doing ok- i know its an obvious understatement given the circumstances. You're amazing and he would be lucky to have you. Do whats best for you and take the time to think it through before you act.
-T
I'm sorry about this development. To me, you're entering more regular DB territory. Having a H that moved out and wants to D is what most of us are dealing with. It's what most successful vets have gone through. You can have a look at the success stories at the top of my thread for inspiration.
You often react very quickly and jump to conclusions. That's ok, you're in control and the only one among us to live with the consequences. But one thing that might be helpful is to have a little more patience. When your H says "Fine, serve the papers, I'm done." it does not mean that your M is over. It means that today, your H is ok with you serving the papers and does not want to work on the M. Things can change tomorrow. Or next month.
I don't want to give you false hopes and, in fact, for the next steps, it's probably to your advantage to have as little hope as possible. This way, you'll focus on yourself and keep a cooler head through the D negotiations. But if you could avoid projecting the day's latest development in the infinite future, I think it would help you.
We're with you.
Sorry to hear that. I'm in the same boat. It does seem to get better once you're busy and not thinking or making constant contact with the S. I has been doing so well handing this whole situation and accepting all that the S is doing now. He is seeing someone casually and spending more time with that person than his own daughter. All this because he is going through something and is depressed and Confused, i guess. Then all of a sudden when he makes contact, it just adds salt to my wound that was healing. We should have a better time doing our 180s. There are times I feel so positive about the future and then other times I just want to sleep all day and not think. Hang on there.
Calibri
Let H work his stuff and you brave heart will concentrate on yours.
Time is on your side as you become and develop.
((((((Hugs))))))
V
Journaling:
I am right back in the place I was when the BD back in September. It's been a week and I can already tell I've lost weight, again. Weight I haven't out back on since last BD. I went to work today. Didn't do much but look at the screen. Was supposed to work from home tomorrow but will have to go in to do some work.
I don't know how we got here. I thought everything was fine. I always spoke my mind when I had problems, I thought my H (I refuse to type stbx) would do the same. He didn't. He bottled everything up inside until it became too much for him to handle. Until he resented me. Until he blamed me. Communication was never really "allowed" in his house. They were taught to ignore, head in the sand and it will all go away. His own mother admitted that was how she taught her boys to react, because she reacted that way herself. Right before she gleefully told me I was getting divorced.
I am in shock. My mind boggles how our pasts come to be and intertwine with others. Sometimes they can be beautiful. Other times they can be toxic. My marriage was a bit of both, I suppose. Damaged boy from a drug filled, alcoholic home brought lack of communication, coping skills, and a lack of self esteem to the table. Boy meets girl who comes from divorced parents, mentally Ill father, absuive backgrounds, trust issues, a need to control to prevent further hurt from damaging this already damaged girl. They meet. They fall in love. And they secretly expect the other to fill the damaged parts. To make them better. One realizes it. One doesn't. One wants it. The other doesn't. And so they twist and turn until they're both broken.
This is what I know, right now.
H and I are both unbelievably broken.
H doesn't want to be married to me.
H is a people pleaser.
H lies to people and tells them what they want to hear.
H has a lot of work to do, that may or may not be done.
C is DeVestated
C feels like this is her fault
C feels abandoned and unloved
C doesn't know what to do next
C feels very alone and hopeless
C is talking in third person, ha.
And I'll leave it with this: last night I had an appointment with my IC and she said that H didn't realize that he had the ability to hurt me. That he has built me up in his head as this impenetrable person, where nothing gets through and I'm
Not bothered by anything. H hurt me, beyond belief. Hurt me more
than anyone ever has. It's just too bad the vulnerability that he probably needed to see? That would make me human, make me softer? It's too bad he's walked away and refusing to speak to me. He might be surprised at what he Would see.
Can't make a horse drink. And you can't make someone want to be with you if they don't.
Oh Calibri, you're giving me another urge to hug someone on this board. I'm rough on you and likely contribute to this impression that it's all your fault. The truth is, you're the only part of this couple I can talk to, and you're the one who's willing to make it work. But I know it's not all your fault, especially as a sort of people pleaser myself. Your H is a "nice guy" of a strong breed, according to your descriptions. You're forceful and controlling. You were the two poles of a magnet, destined to match as soon as you got close. It probably felt so right at the time.
Your closing paragraph spoke to me because, like your H, my W thought that I was insensitive and indestructible. Yet, she's giving me suffering that expanded even my understanding of what it is to be human and alive. I hope I never will project that image of invulnerability again because it made me very vulnerable.
Musical recommendation of the night:
Heartbreak Warfare.
How come the only way to know how high you get me is to see how far I fall?
Calibri,
Every single word you wrote feels like a magnifying glass into my soul and my situation.
I too feel like I'm back where I was at BD. Lost. Anxiety ridden. Angry. Hurt. Confused. Resentful. Humbled. Shaken. Disturbed. Broken. Above all - broken. Into 100,000 little pieces that I can't even find all of let alone begin to put back together.
And he? He has walked on. Has no care to even notice those pieces. I'm sure he has pieces he's picking up, too but man, I can't even find all of mine.
Shock doesn't even cover it does it?
I'm losing weight, too. Weight that I don't have to lose either. I feel like a shell walking around... smiling to people. Waving. Feeding the dog. Trying to engage with D7.
Our husbands, the ones who think they don't have the ability to hurt us and who therefore will probably not own up to it EVER. Who will probably not apologize let alone make amends, are hurting. Yes. I'm sure.
Frankly, that's not my focus. I'm still looking for all the pieces of me that are scattered all over the place.
The pain is so great I genuinely cannot believe I'm not bleeding all over the floor from some huge open wound. I keep looking but I'm definitely not bleeding. At least visibly.
Anyway, I'm here. I wish you and I lived closer together.
(((hugs))) my dear friend. That's all I can offer.
C, there's nothing you can do but keep driving on just like you've been doing. You may not know it but even what you just wrote, is showing how much you've grown since this whole thing started. You're not whining or complaining (well maybe a little) and still making jokes. Its very apparent you're obviously hurt and pissed off and a million different emotions. And you have every right to be. Don't worry about work, you'll pick your head back up soon. You've handled one BD, I know you can do this again. Really take the time to figure out what it is you want to do right now. You can do anything, but please please think it through. Drink some wine and take a bath and watch some TV or something, just take some time to relax. You're H says he doesn't wanna work on the M? Thats not a surprise, you've heard it before and overcame it and kept working. Respect his wishes, let him initiate the contact just as you did before. You're set back yes, but now that you've hit bottom you've got nowhere to go but up. I encourage you to keep at your New Years Resolutions and don't let this phase you for too long. Take the time to recover and BREATHE...we're all here for you C....
I so understand how you feel C. I too communicated with my H. I was never one to give him the cold shoulder. I could articulate very well what was bothering me. I would think he heard me and understood. In reality he stuffed his feelings or just got defensive. He was never able to express his feelings. He too built up walls of resentment for things I don't even know.
We can't force them to get help. We can only control ourselves. If your H. Is a people pleaser you cannot trust he is being honest with you or placating. It is up to him to do the work to learn how to express his own needs and be honest. He is not living an authentic life.
Everyone , thank you for coming by and showing love.
I am at rock bottom. I feel like I have a gaping chest wound that's bleeding (just like Ss said) everywhere and the proverbial blood loss is taking it out of me. I just want to curl up and sleep. But I can't sleep the pain away.
H is on the search for his true authentic self. Apparently, that true authentic self doesn't include a life with me. And it makes me wonder about the last ten years. I was blindingly happy. I can't trust my judgement or what he's said about it, because is it actually the truth?
Looking back over the past months, the signs were there that this wasn't an authentic shot at reconciliation. He had a lot of excuses for things - he blamed them most on the depression. He would make plans and cancel. "Because he was tired and in a bad mood and didn't want to take it out on me." I think he was trying, the best he knew how , but couldn't force himself to go through with it. Because it wasn't what he wanted. I was too blind with hope that it was real. This is why we preach no expectations.
He won't come back. He didn't want to in the first place. And no matter how much I may want things to go my way, he wants things to go his way. Because he's checked out, because he's lost, because I am the big bad wolf, because he's unhappy. Because he wants a kid. And I don't.
And there's no coming back from that.
C,
My heart goes out to you. It's amazing how well we can be doing, how strong we can feel like we are, and then within a moments notice we are right back where we started. The roller coaster of ups and downs is the most horrible part of it all. Because it's truly exhausting.
I also feel for you because like me, you're young. And while most on here would see that as a plus, I know it's hard to accept our marriages failed so early in life. We are in a sea of people getting engaged, having babies, buying houses, while you and I are starting from square one. It's a terrifying place to be.
I'm not sure if you are religious at all, but I wanted to recommend a book I recently read. It's called "Wild At Heart" by John Eldredge and it really helped me understand that we live in a broken world full of broken people, yet there are things we can do to heal ourselves.
Hang in there. I will pray for you.
I also feel for you because like me, you're young. And while most on here would see that as a plus, I know it's hard to accept our marriages failed so early in life. We are in a sea of people getting engaged, having babies, buying houses, while you and I are starting from square one. It's a terrifying place to be.
This really hit home. Everywhere I look its people our age getting engaged, starting families, having babies, getting married. Pretty rough, considering we were supposed to try and have kids after I got home. Sorry I cant offer too much advice C, but please keep writing, I feel like you fell off the earth (ie this forum) but I hope you are getting support somewhere else, or are at least venting to someone..please dont bottle it up.
I don't even know what to write.
I am mad that my friend decided I out to know my H was on Tinder and blew up my whole world with one text message.
I am angry that instead of being honest with me about it, that my H lied to my face until I showed him the screen shot.
I am hurt that he would do such things while in a relationship with me. (Regardless, of being separated or whatnot. We agreed nothing of that sort of behavior and he couldn't honor that.)
I am pissed that after his behaviors came to light that he slammed all doors of communication in my face under the pretense of a boundary. First it was, I won't talk in person without a counselor, now it's progressed to he's blocked every aspect of communicating with me. He will unblock it to send a message and then block it right back so I have no chance of a response.
I am humiliated/pissed/infuriated that he had his toxic parents do his dirty work for him and tell me he was filing for divorce. Which is perplexing because 12 hours before, his last message before he cut off communication with me was he wanted to try and divorce wasn't on his mind.
I am sad, because it appears that I've been fed nothing but lies from a people pleaser who didn't have the courage or tools to speak up to either fix this or end this in a manner of which would be appropriate.
I am disappointed that he reached out to me and told me he would talk to me on Friday (yesterday) and didn't follow through. No surprise there, but seriously, at this point, just stop the games.
I am concerned for his mental health because of the statements he has made in the last week. As he has moved to a new location, stopped using our joint account, and blocked me from reaching him, I have no way to assure that he is alive.
I am in shock that this is my life. This is not my husband. This is some stranger who is having some sort of life crisis, and it makes me so so sad for him and for me.
I am upset, because this all could be worked on and overcome. But he doesn't want it. Because he has associated all of his problems with me. He's refusing to speak to me. I can't DB that.
So I have to let my ten years with a man who I love, more than life itself, go and set him free in the hopes that he finds what he needs.
And meanwhile, I am on the floor in a million pieces trying to put myself back together again, and will never be whole because he took one of them with him.
I do not want this.
But he doesn't want me.
And there's nothing that I can do about any of it.
Hi C,
Big hugs for you C. I just want to say that as much as it does not feel like but your H, family, friends are all right to say that you are a strong person.
Being strong does not mean you can't break, hurt, be sad, these are all feelings that you have in any time things get rough in life. What they don't get is that you are a person that work on things inside you and you have a desire for life. That's why you drive yourself through the troubles and keep going, keep fighting for what is next.
Don't be hard on yourself, that's what strong people do. They search for answers and solutions. Pick yourself up a little bit every day. Look for things small that makes you smile. You will find it. It is there, sleeping because someone put a knife on your back, but it is there.
You joke, you are a bit sarcastic, you are learning, you are growing as a person and as a part of this world. And this world is big, very big. I would ask you to take yourself out of the picture for awhile and do something good to help someone else. You will be surprised how much it enrich your soul, and I am sure you can always find someone else that suffer more then us, that needs more then us.
A few days ago, my manager lost her husband. He took his own life and left her with the pain. I gave her my support and understood my pain was lesser the the total end of it.
Keep in perspective, keep faith that it is still a road to walk and a life to live. You have this pain that you are young and not doing what young people are doing. Many of us feel that we are old and how hard it is to start all over again when the wrinkles start showing.
But, no matter young or old, we need to look for a better tomorrow, we need to find what can drive us to next chapter of our lives, as hard as it is, there will be tomorrow and every day is a new chance to do the right thing by us.
I read what you write and I see you forget to mention that your H is still having support (the wrong one) from his family. They baby him a lot, and he is feeling comfort on this right now. I would say you need to back off and let him realize that he is empty with just this.
I feel he needs to come to his own understanding of who he is as a person on his own. Maybe his reaction to the papers are advice from third people that should not been involved in this situation.
It's hard C, but don't ignore that you are a strong person and you can do it. Read some of 25 posts. She was hurting like us and she forced herself to became better, to surpass the pain little by little and time showed her that with every step she got more freedom from her pain, and she became happier and showed a person only a fool would leave.
It's OK to cry, it's OK to hurt, as a matter of fact it's good and necessary. Exercise and cry, eat and cry, go dancing and in the way back home cry, go shopping and cry, go to work, work hard and when you are done, cry. You see, you give yourself time to feel and let go. You will see that slowly you will do something and don't cry. You will smile at small things, you will find yourself enjoying to put on a make up, a nice different color in your wardrobe.
Get that girl out of you. Enjoy the manicure, pedicure, enjoy the body you have to show and dress a little different for a change, enjoy a new lipstick, get that girl from within and let her help you. You feel beautiful outside, the inside start following.
As much as it hurts now, you know it is not going to last forever. It will pass, and when time comes, your H will see the beautiful person you are. He may come back or not. Or maybe you will meet someone in Italy, or in the supermarket. Who knows, life is full of surprises, don't let the actual pain eat you life away. Believe in you, you can do it even with tears in your eyes.
Let yourself suffer, let your heart hurt, punch the pillow. With people like us, the strong and impenetrable ones, this is they way. The more we struggle and suffer the stronger we get, we find out something inside us that will drive us to the next road. You can do it girl. I know I can.
Lots of hugs to you beautiful. You are worthy.
XOXO
Pink
C, came across this quote by none other then CLB today. I had a crappy day myself. Hopefully this helps a little bit. Keep your head up and drive on.
"My advice is very simple; if you want something, work your ass off for it … I try not to say, ‘as long as you believe in your dreams it will come true’, because the reality is that you really need to work hard for it. But if you do, it is going to come true.”
- Camille leblanc-bazinet
Calibri, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It all just went down so quickly. I am sure you must still be in shock. Ugh...I remember that feeling and it is like the breath has been taken away from you. Purely dreadful.
Pink had some great suggestions and I hope you will take them on board. So much of this journey for me has been about learning to comfort my own self. Early on I read a book that helped me understand that this is actually an important relationship skill - if we can comfort ourselves then we don't place so much burden on our spouse/marriage. So from there I gave myself permission to splurge every once in a while on something to make me feel good. And I feel so much better for it.
Ganb8te- pecan you recommend the book in a way that won't get your post edited?
---
Honest question time. Would love everyone's feedback. At what point do you accept your spouse's "I don't want to work on this/be married/be with you." As truth and just, for lack of better words, just set them free?
I'm struggling with this, so very hard this weekend. I know I don't want this. I know H has tons of issues: people pleasing, lying to avoid confrontation, a horrific childhood, etc. I know if we put the work in, learned to communicate, learned other things, and kept his toxic mother out of the R we might have a shot. (yes, I realize this is control, and projecting, and everything else that is negative about me. Just roll with it.)
from the beginning of this H has been pretty consistent. "I don't want to work on it peppered with half assed attempts back to I don't want to work on it to January's big show of "working on it" back to "I don't want to work on it, thank you for your understanding. "
At what point do you just let it go? At what point can't you no longer fight the tides? At what point do you just accept defeat and say, "well, it's not going to work" and move on.
The reality is, and Vanilla hit the nail on the head and so did Zelda: he's got lots of work to do. Years of work, most likely. Do I go dark? (Technically, we are on darkish day 3?) do I give it awhile and reappear?
Did I give this my best shot? No, I'm woman enough to admit it. But I'm also woman enough to admit that perhaps he doesn't need or want another shot.
Thoughts?
Honest question time. Would love everyone's feedback. At what point do you accept your spouse's "I don't want to work on this/be married/be with you." As truth and just, for lack of better words, just set them free?
This should have been done from day 1 of BD, or whenever we started DBing. Its easier said then done, obviously, but this is something we needed to do a while back. Let them go, run their course, set them free and realize its out of our control. You know this.
At what point do you just let it go? At what point can't you no longer fight the tides? At what point do you just accept defeat and say, "well, it's not going to work" and move on.
Whenever YOU, CALIBRI, decide you don't want to fight for it anymore. No one can answer this but YOU. How much can you take? Obviously everyday you, we all, learn that we can take at least ONE more day of this. You are the only one to decide when you've had enough and just have no desire to make it work anymore. IMHO? You're not there yet. You said that H's tinder fling or whatever you wanna call it was your breaking point. Yet, you're still here. To me, you will "just know" when its time to call it. I just heard a story today on here from T2 that someone R with his W while at the D signing! anything is possible. T2 recommended to me, to set a date, 90days, and tell yourself you will NOT quit and will re-evaluate at the 90day mark. If you want to drop the rope then, then ok. But set a date, re-evaluate then. Until that time, keep doing it. Thoughts?
The reality is, and Vanilla hit the nail on the head and so did Zelda: he's got lots of work to do. Years of work, most likely. Do I go dark? (Technically, we are on darkish day 3?) do I give it awhile and reappear?
Did I give this my best shot? No, I'm woman enough to admit it. But I'm also woman enough to admit that perhaps he doesn't need or want another shot.
You've told me this many times and I'll say it back to you. Yes, H has LOTS of work to do. You and he will never R until he has fully worked through his issues. Are you willing to wait? Right now, I would give it a while. You need to let the dust settle. Lots of stuff has happened. You need to just give both of you room to breathe.
What do you think you could have done differently? Yes you've had some blowups at him, but who doesn't. What would you have changed? Identify those things, and change now. Its never too late.
Regroup, breathe and keep your head up C. Cant help but notice its pretty late over where you are, hopefully you've been out GAL tonight. Superbowl Party?
Honest question time. Would love everyone's feedback. At what point do you accept your spouse's "I don't want to work on this/be married/be with you." As truth and just, for lack of better words, just set them free?
As far as I understand, it's from the moment they first say it. In DB at least, it's all about setting them free and working on ourselves. Letting them figure out their problems and see if they come back. That's detachment. That's leaving the door open. The road paved and smooth.
At that point, it doesn't mean that you take over control to make it happen. Those who don't want a D will let the WAS push the paperwork, but not stop it.
I know that there's been much back in forth in your sitch. It shouldn't change the fact that you have let go. You've seen the picinic and castle analogy that goes around these boards? If not search for "picnic" and you should find it easily. It's about not getting overenthusiastic when they show interest, until they show real commitment.
I posted this on my thread today
There is a difference between giving up and knowing when you've had enough
Ganb8te- pecan you recommend the book in a way that won't get your post edited?
---
Honest question time. Would love everyone's feedback. At what point do you accept your spouse's "I don't want to work on this/be married/be with you." As truth and just, for lack of better words, just set them free?
Mmm pecans ....
The book was PM by David Schnarch. Lots more in there than what I am referring to above but Section 3 gave me a good framework for thinking about my own self-development in all this mess, as well as my approach to my next R. Good work-on-me companion to DR. Beware the graphic language!
As for your question above, I pondered this early on, too. At some point I realised that the answer didn't matter. I would be doing the same thing regardless of whether I accepted it or no, which is to say: self-soothe, confront my own issues, GAL. That's where your focus should be right now - moving yourself
forward (not
on necessarily, but
forward).
Yes, I think you should go dark. Contact didn't serve you well, wouldn't you agree?
C,
You got good advice here. The "YOU" part of everything is what gets to me too. When it comes to the point that someone says: it's you and only you that can decide when to stop, when you had enough, then I have a lot of doubts.
I ended up reading DB and DR a lot of times, over and over, and it's getting to me that I need to let go on the crazy thinking about H all the time.
It's very hard, and there are days I just can't do it. But it's necessary even if you have a chance to start a new R with him. You need to cleanse your soul, your thoughts.
Why we need to get very busy? Because being busy not only keeps you not thinking too much about your sitch, it also enrich yourself as a person. It gives you new horizons to look for. At first it feels really hard, then you push yourself because you know you must do it in order to get better, then as you do it things start getting easier and you will find that you can have some fun, relax, enjoy at least for the moment being.
Your H, M/R are very important, but it's YOU that is the most important of all. At the end of the line, you have only you.
Don't give up on your M, keep it in a sacred place somewhere inside you, sleeping away for awhile. Be open for new stuff, think of things you always want to do. Plan a vacation, hang with friends.
You see, I am not saying you need to look for a new guy, a new R. All what I am saying is that you need to take control over your own life and feelings. Take control over your practical life, do the things you need to do to protect your finances. Go to work, pay your bills, house work, etc. And take good care of your emotional side, go to your IC frequently, have your doctor's appointments, meet your friends very often if not everyday, explore what is available in your area regarding to volunteering, do some good to someone else, help others, go dancing, buy a pair of clothing, or jewelry, exercise very often or every day so those happy chemicals start helping you, take some anti-depressant if necessary... bottom line, try to avoid being alone.
Surround yourself with people, it will help bit time.
I know it is hard, I am doing it myself. It's the worse crap I had in my whole life. It hurts deeply and you just want the other person to snap back into reality, but they don't. And they won't in our time frame.
Always remember that your H is under his parents influence now and they are not let go until they see that you backed off. So, if you give it some break, they will back off and your H will be able to think for himself.
If you try to control and whatever, that will be doing the same. Where are your 180s?, what are your goals, timeline and how you will get there?
The question of letting go: the answer is that it happen, you will know when you don't want anymore, when you are done and just want all this to be in the past. It's not something you can determined. It is something that happen inside you, a switch happen and you don't even know why. One day you wake up and you start feeling that there is no more intense pain, that you don't think too much about it anymore. This is what happen, the candle just goes off.
Don't try to stop yourself from feeling what you feel, don't put a date thinking that your love has expiration, don't think that you need to forget because this or that. Just let it happen. One thing is for sure, it just happen. And you will know it happen. Until then, work on yourself, change some things you don't like about yourself, enjoy the things you like. Give yourself this time to live your own life.
I hope you find some peace inside you. I have finally understood most of the DBing process only now. And yes, I have been trying my best to give myself a chance to dream again, to have some moments of fun, some small victories that have been improving to bigger ones. It's a process and it's not easy.
Take C, remember you are an amazing person.
XOXO
Pink
C,
How are your H's parents toxic? My H's mom is also toxic and someone who I truly believe played a HUGE part in my H deciding to divorce me. I've been DB'ing my A** off since September, but I feel like I will never win against my MIL. Actually, my H saw her yesterday and then called me and said he had a great talk with his mom and now wants to talk to me about moving forward... sigh. Outsiders like family members who have a huge influence on our spouses are one of the hardest obstacles to overcome. I'm sorry you deal with this as well.
My H is also a huge people pleaser and one of the reasons he says he never spoke up when he was unhappy was because he didn't want to hurt my feelings (really??). I feel your pain on frustrating that is, because it's honestly been driving me nuts! How does any of the even make sense?!
Hang in there girl. I see a lot of similarities in our situations and I follow your threads a lot even when I don't respond (it's hard to at work and home).
Sending you positive thoughts and hugs, xoxo
So. H sent me an email, responding to an email that I sent him about having to do taxes, keeping the lines of communication open (I had a sick dog twice last week - his dog -- and couldn't reach him because he had blocked me) and some general stuff.
This was his response back (keep in mind, last email I got from him was and I quote, "I don't plan on working on the marriage, thank you for your understanding.")
---
"I apologize that I have been unreachable. I hit what felt like the breaking point for myself and had to take all steps I could to prevent. I know that doesn’t help you but I am just trying to explain myself somewhat.
I agree we have to keep the communication lines open. There are things at the house that need to be attended. I didn’t think we would file taxes separately.
I am removing the block in case of emergencies. And I would like to plan to text/possibly speak Wednesday evening. I will be working late today and tomorrow trying to catch up after being out sick for 1.5 days.
I am sorry you had to endure what I most recently put you through. I hope you are faring better."
---
So what now? Where's Wonka -- she's the queen of email responses.
We so desperately need to communicate with one another.
The week this all went to hell in a handbasket (the latest time), he got passed over for a position at work, got a negative review, denied a raise, felt the lowest point that he had been in years, told me he was working on things with me, got busted on Tinder and having a conversation with a girl on FB, decided to enforce boundaries for the first time in his life, moved out of his hotelbatcave, had several bad therapy sessions with his therapist digging up childhood chit and started talking in depth to his toxic mother and told me that he feels that all he does is hurt people in his life, disappoint them and can't amount to anything.
I'm honestly surprised that he's at work -- the kid (that's my nickname for him sometimes) is made of some tough stuff. Granted, he probably got the separation letter today so who knows if that'll send him into a tailspin as well.
I would like to know what's going on -- why he feels the way he does. I would like to work on my 180's, because quite frankly he's the one who pushes my buttons and I don't have a chance to practice them with him because he has ZERO communication skills.
Regardless of what happens to us -- I love him. So deeply. So truly. I want what's best for him. And I am so concerned for him right now. I was to be supportive, but I honestly, just do not know what to do other than stand stock still and let him talk. Like no sudden movements, you know?
--
Help?
Calibri,
Fear not! Here I am with my sparkly, glitter hot pink Sharpie.
What do you think? I'll work with you baby...your ball, your court.
How about taking a jab at this with STFU and KISS principles? That'll be a good starting point, honey.
Hi Calibri
Would it be best to just stick to brief & simple..
Hi H, thanks for your email. I'm sorry you've had a rough time - I know this is hard for us both. I'm happy for us to text/talk on Wed eve. Take care, C.
Or something along those lines...
I think making him comfortable and feeling "safe" is a priority.
Hi H,
Thank You for your response. Wednesday night would work well for my schedule. I should be free after 8pm for a text/or phone call. Would that work for you?
Thank you for letting me know what was going on last week in regards to being out of contact. I know you've had alot of stress going on with therapy, work, your review and our situation. I hope that you'd be willing to share some of your feelings with me.
Please let me know about Wednesday - hope you're feeling better.
Calibri
---
??
I don't even know.
I'm suspecting for him to say, I'm stressed out, I don't want to do this anymore - I'll fix the house so you can sell it and be done with it. Personally, I'm trying to.....not go that route if possible. But that's the control freak in me.
The only thing I would lose is - I hope that you'd be willing to share some of your feelings with me....sounds a bit like pressure!
Calibri,
Your first draft is a very good start. How about throwing in some validation here? It seems to be missing a bit. Go back to my Validation Cheat Sheet for some ideas.
Hi H,
Thank You for your response. Wednesday night would work well for my schedule. I should be free after 8pm for a text/or phone call. Would that work for you?
Thank you for letting me know what was going on last week in regards to being out of contact. I know you've had alot of stress going on with therapy, work, your review and our situation. [Try to insert some validating comments showing that you get his situation.] I hope that you'd be willing to share some of your feelings with me. [This last line is a bit too much for H...feeling a bit pressure from reading it. Change this up to be more of a nonchalent as in, "I'm here if you wish to talk" because it shows him that he has a choice to do so or not.]
Please let me know about Wednesday - hope you're feeling better. [how about using some words to prop him up as in he can handle things...ya know?]
Calibri
We so desperately need to communicate with one another.
Why? Honest question. To file the taxes? Take care of the dog? I hope it's not to do some instant therapy or to convince him that D is a bad idea?
The week this all went to hell in a handbasket (the latest time), he got passed over for a position at work, got a negative review, denied a raise, felt the lowest point that he had been in years, told me he was working on things with me, got busted on Tinder and having a conversation with a girl on FB, decided to enforce boundaries for the first time in his life, moved out of his hotelbatcave, had several bad therapy sessions with his therapist digging up childhood chit and started talking in depth to his toxic mother and told me that he feels that all he does is hurt people in his life, disappoint them and can't amount to anything.
Poor guy! I really hope he gets a breather from one of these. How come you know so much by the way, since you two barely communicate?
the kid (that's my nickname for him sometimes)
Woah. I could never ever imagine my W calling me "kid". Neither would I all her that. I don't even remember another couple using this nickname, tough I'm not there in their intimacy and it might be more common than I realize.
Think of another relationship that you have with someone that you consider your equal. A cousin? A colleague? Now imagine calling him "kid". If I were to call someone kid, I'd definitely "feel" in a position of power towards that person. I'd never call my boss "kid" for instance. It's not my personality, but I might imagine calling a colleague as such, but because I feel an advantage over him.
I would like to know what's going on -- why he feels the way he does.
Re-read the paragraph above and it will give you a hint. See how much you yearn for controlling him again. How difficult it is for you to just accept his rhythm, his demands, his emotions. And this is when you are powerless because he's in charge. I really wonder what it looked like in the M, when you had obligations to one another. You don't want to know how he feels, you want to control it, you want to fix it, to change it. That's how it comes across. You don't want a letter or third person telling you how he feels -- which would give you the knowledge you're asking for -- you want direct communication with him because that's how you can influence him.
Regardless of what happens to us -- I love him. So deeply. So truly. I want what's best for him. And I am so concerned for him right now. I was to be supportive, but I honestly, just do not know what to do other than stand stock still and let him talk. Like no sudden movements, you know?
I've been meaning to tell you that your recent concern about his safety was... over the top. You really, honestly feared that maybe he was dead and, if so, that you had a role to play? That you could still save his life, say, before he crossed that street in front of a bus? How many people you know are dying every week? What are the chances that he is dying? That you could save him? That nobody else is there for him? That he can't take care of himself?
I wonder if you have some savior syndrome, if this guy is your guinea pig and feeds your sense that you have to save the world (or someone). Do you think he has the same reaction you do, wondering if you're going to survive without him? It might help you to see the imbalance to imagine your reactions applied to him.
==========
Email response. "Thanks. Don't worry. I'm glad you took care of yourself. I'm available when you want to talk." Don't invade his space, not even by showing excessive concern.
We so desperately need to communicate with one another.
Why? Honest question. To file the taxes? Take care of the dog? I hope it's not to do some instant therapy or to convince him that D is a bad idea?
[/quote}
Why? Because we both agree that communication is something we need to work on. Anytime there's a hard situation, he shuts down, and then comes back around and says he needs to learn how to communicate. Because there's some private situations going on in my life that I need to talk about - because he's a part of that have nothing to do with taxes, or divorce or anything like that. No, it's not for instant therapy. No it's not to convince him that D is a bad idea.
Poor guy! I really hope he gets a breather from one of these. How come you know so much by the way, since you two barely communicate?
Because up until two weeks ago -- we were talking (which there's a difference between talking and communicating), sharing things that were going on.
the kid (that's my nickname for him sometimes)
Woah. I could never ever imagine my W calling me "kid". Neither would I all her that. I don't even remember another couple using this nickname, tough I'm not there in their intimacy and it might be more common than I realize.
Think of another relationship that you have with someone that you consider your equal. A cousin? A colleague? Now imagine calling him "kid". If I were to call someone kid, I'd definitely "feel" in a position of power towards that person. I'd never call my boss "kid" for instance. It's not my personality, but I might imagine calling a colleague as such, but because I feel an advantage over him.
[/quote]
It's a nickname not a assertion of domination over him, and it's a private one. I live in the southern US. We call people "hun", "sugar", "sweetie" "honey" "sugar pie" "kid" "honey bunch" etc. I'm called kid myself, alot. I do not feel an advantage over him because I once in a blue moon call him kid, nor do I feel that he is disrespectful towards me because he calls me "baby doll."
Re-read the paragraph above and it will give you a hint. See how much you yearn for controlling him again. How difficult it is for you to just accept his rhythm, his demands, his emotions. And this is when you are powerless because he's in charge. I really wonder what it looked like in the M, when you had obligations to one another. You don't want to know how he feels, you want to control it, you want to fix it, to change it. That's how it comes across. You don't want a letter or third person telling you how he feels -- which would give you the knowledge you're asking for -- you want direct communication with him because that's how you can influence him.
No, I don't want to influence him AND no I don't want a third person telling me how he feels (because honestly, it's rude to have a third person end a marriage). I would like to know what's going on with him to have such a reaction in his life. Because, and I know you'll find this shocking, it's not all about me. It's a storm of different things going on and I would like to understand what's going on so I understand.
I've been meaning to tell you that your recent concern about his safety was... over the top. You really, honestly feared that maybe he was dead and, if so, that you had a role to play? That you could still save his life, say, before he crossed that street in front of a bus? How many people you know are dying every week? What are the chances that he is dying? That you could save him? That nobody else is there for him? That he can't take care of himself?
Wow. So. Here's the thing. You know what I do for a living? Organ and tissue recovery. Off of people who die. I've currently got 20 cases on my board that I'm working on from people who have died in the past 48 hours. Some could've been prevented (like the two people who died in a car crash because they didn't buckle their seat belts), others couldn't. Those weren't my people to save. My H isn't my person to save either, in some sense. But, forgive me, but I've lost three people in my life to suicide. One of which, we didn't take their depression and their threats seriously. We poo poo'd it, said it would be fine, that they would work themselves out. And you know how they worked themselves out?
By shooting themselves in the head. That's how they worked it out. I got to deliver that news to my mother. In person. At her work. That her father shot himself to death. While I know now, that we couldn't have prevented it -- it's a bitch to live with knowing that we didn't take him seriously. Maybe it would've changed something, maybe it wouldn't.
I take it seriously now, when people start showing signs of severe depression. I take it seriously when people say they're spiraling out of control and feel hopeless. When they say they feel like all they're doing is hurting people and they want it all to stop. I no longer think, "well they'll just sort it out." Do I think that H was dying because of me? No. Do I think that the perfect storm is there that could tip the scale one way or the other? Yes. Do I have concern for that? Yes, from things he's directly said, that out of respect for him I will not post here. And no, Mozza, there is no one else there for him? You know how I know? Because I pulled him OFF THE FLOOR OF HIS HOTEL ROOM on thanksgiving day, made sure he was fed, made sure he was ok, when he was so bad, because his parents couldn't be bothered to make the 2.5 hour drive to see their son in crisis, because they wanted to stay at home and watch the Macy's Day parade. Because his brother, is going through the same mental health meltdown with his own wife - hasn't talked to him since August. When I talked to his mother this weekend? She said that he wasn't depressed, that all he needed was some fresh air, and a home cooked meal and that he'd be ok. Because that's her solution to everything. Fresh air, a home cooked meal and sweep it under the table. So yes. I am aware of how many people die, I look at death daily. No, there is no one down here for my H.
I wonder if you have some savior syndrome, if this guy is your guinea pig and feeds your sense that you have to save the world (or someone). Do you think he has the same reaction you do, wondering if you're going to survive without him? It might help you to see the imbalance to imagine your reactions applied to him.
No. I don't have a savior syndrome. I just give a [censored]. Because I've seen what depression does to people. I see what mental illness does to people. I see what happens to people when they're left alone with no support system. I've seen it with my dad. My mom, my grandfather, my best friend, my husband, my childhood friend, my co-worker.
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Honestly, I appreciate that you comment on my thread, and "push me hard" but I think you are walking a thin line between being hard, and being rude. I would never, ever, have spoken to someone who has concern for their spouse's well being the way you spoke to me. I come here for support. I come here to learn about myself. Maybe I haven't figured it out Mozza. Maybe I'm still learning all about it. But I do not appreciate you belittling my concern over the safety and well being about my husband who is clearly in a mental health crisis. I would encourage you in the future, to show some sympathy to those who are in the throws of it -- and perhaps consider how your words might feel if they were said back to you? Should you have something similar in your sitch, I wouldn't sit there and say you were controlling or what not, I would ask you why you had concerns, and offer sympathy - instead of insinuating that you were overreacting to something that was so clearly concerning to you and your family.
Wow. So, things got heated quick. But Mozza, unfortunately Im gonna have to take C's side on this one...when I read your post, first thought was...ok that was borderline rude...and I think you might have crossed that line this time- actually IMO, i know you did. Because what you said about the "how many people do you know die every week?" affected me too. Because in my line of work, people do die. All the time. And it [censored] watching it happen in front of your eyes. So id just be careful with what you say in the future, because depending on someones sitch (outside of DBing), you never know whats really going on.
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C, I think Wonka hit the nail on the head. And I agree, that asking him that you "hope to share some feelings" is a bit much right now...Id stick with the "Im always here to talk if you need it" and go from there.
What you said about making him feel safe, comfortable as a priority should definitely top your to do list for this. Let the dust settle. I know you still want this, so drive on.
C,
Read all of these email drafts as though you are the one receiving it. Toots is simple and sweet. Yours has a lot of expectation and business tone to it. I feel pressure when I read it. Even the line where the empathy is offered, I guess bc it reads assuming (even if it's true). Less is more
leave him room to figure out a time/method to contact you - almost sounds like you're trying so hard to ensure it will happen, he's got no power in that.
I am excited for you bc you're no longer looking at a brick wall.
Let me see if I've followed correctly? Things went well until you lost your temper over the Tinder thing, right? I get it. I nearly drove my car off the road when my H said 7 days ago he wanted to see other ppl. I nearly screamed and gave up when he said something else a few days later. My hurt feelings kick like a big raging mule. I am sometimes embarrassed at the strength of my anger in whatever proportion to the thing I think I'm so upset about. Sounds like you regret the way you handled and/or trying to minimize what was so symbolic about Tinder and all?
When I read your posts, you love fiercely and react fiercely. You seem like you have so much fire and passion. This is probably what drew your H to you! It might be overwhelming to a guy just trying to hear himself for the (first?) time. I don't know if there was any magic in the words I spoke to my H yesterday. But when I told him that I had no interest in seeing his actions as right, wrong, justified or not - and I realized he did what was right for him at the time, I had to deal with my feelings about it all as a separate thing - he put his ring back on as unceremoniously as you can do something like that. The important thing isn't that I said it, but it's truly where I'm coming from. That's the freedom your H is looking for, I think. Total room to make his own choices and learn how to think for himself, I believe. Pulling back may not be about no contact in your case, but leaving the ball in his court 110% while showing respect, and keeping YOUR feelings dim - he can barely handle his own sounds like
I respect you so much for your courage.
C
I am going to interject here. No one more than Mza has had more 2x4s over his sitch. There are some interchanges between Mza and Wonka where Wonka was explaining to Mza how she evaluated his sitch. Mza after an internal personal struggle and some strong words took Wonka advice on board and started to grow. Mza knows more than any one that to reach a DBer often requires a forceful post. in truth I can not see this care he has as rude, forceful absolutely. This is a crossroad C and often we resist that which we most need to learn. Mza is the messenger heed his words, the message he gives.
T, I know why you say what you do but please read Mza thread.
Often the things we most need to face are the hardest to accept and Mza is acting with great forbearance when he asks you to consider why you have your H sensitive feelings to look after. He is making his point directly.
I do support Mza in his views C, let this H grow up. You can not talk him out of his crisis, take responsibility for his job, compete with his controlling mother or support him into his living arrangements. This is not your job, H has much work to be himself. Let him. C you have accepted that you are controlling, leave H alone to lie in the bed he just made.
C you have enough to concentrate on C and her sitch.
This is the core of the advice we have all been giving you. the rest is noise.
V
C,
Sorry for the hijack...I'd like to talk with Vanilla a bit.
Vanilla,
I respectfully disagree with your take on this. You are a very wise and good DBer....but...
It is a matter of perspective. In Mozz's case, he was not very nice to his W and his daughters which was addressed forcefully to get him to see how his actions have impacted his relations with his loved ones in a very negative way. And there's Calibri whose H, based on her reporting, has exhibited suicicial behaviors which should be taken very seriously which was not the time to be "forceful" in DBing here.
Based on C's reporting, it is only perfectly natural that she is very deeply concerned about her H given his family history and her workplace environment. She knows what she's talking about and I respect that part of her process.
It's not my place to judge C's reactions here IN THE CONTEXT of suicide.
C,
Sorry for the hijack...I'd like to talk with Vanilla a bit.
Vanilla,
I respectfully disagree with your take on this. You are a very wise and good DBer....but...
It is a matter of perspective. In Mozz's case, he was not very nice to his W and his daughters which was addressed forcefully to get him to see how his actions have impacted his relations with his loved ones in a very negative way. And there's Calibri whose H, based on her reporting, has exhibited suicicial behaviors which should be taken very seriously which was not the time to be "forceful" in DBing here.
Based on C's reporting, it is only perfectly natural that she is very deeply concerned about her H given his family history and her workplace environment. She knows what she's talking about and I respect that part of her process.
It's not my place to judge C's reactions here IN THE CONTEXT of suicide.
Wonka
That is not the point I am making here. I totally agree with you on Mza sitch, always have and did.
I am not comparing sitches here.
I do not read Mza post as in any way a comment on suicide or depression, but no doubt he can comment on that for himself. Mza post is forceful. He is making the point about control and I personally find no rude intent in it nor a dismissal of the seriousness of suicide. If H is showing suiicidal tendencies or is talking that way then he needs serious medical intervention and that is urgent. It is crisis that must be addressed without delay.
V
I apologize, Calibri.
I didn't mean to be rude. Where I've been, it was out of laziness, because I let a stream of consciousness fall on the page without thinking about how it sounded to you.
More importantly, I didn't mean to hurt you. Vanilla is right,
I've been hurt too on this Forum. I've lost sleep and cried because of the
way things were told to me -- I didn't even object to the content, which was nothing new to me and had been acknowledged previously. I take onboard that I've done to you what was then done to me. I'm very sorry.
I come on your thread because I identify with you. I'm just as forceful as you are in many ways. When I speak to you, perhaps I speak to me. At a moment where I'm deeply disappointed in myself, upset that I'm doing too little too late, for me, for my W, for my kids, I likely come out too strong when I see hints of the same things in others. It's also entirely possible that I see things that aren't there, because my brain is seeking certain patterns.
There are certain things that you've mentioned in your response that were new to me and that do change my take. I didn't think of your H as suicidal for instance. Obviously, this is a serious concern and hopefully you can warn other people if he does not want you to intervene. English is not my native language and I know few people from the South so it's very possible that "kid" is as neutral as you portray it.
As for death, I'm sorry to have touched such a sensitive point so carelessly. I've had suicide in my family too and I've been a suicide prevention team a long time ago. We then lost a kid in a situation in which I had direct involvement and I still think about it some 20 years later. It doesn't compare to your experience, but I mean it as a show of empathy.
Let me try to rephrase the heart of my message in a more constructive way. What I see as your challenge is accepting to let go. I hear that you don't mean to control him. The line can be hard to spot because trying to control your life kind of implies to control his actions, as is the case for all of us LBS. It's frustrating, as many of us know, to have our WAS behave destructively, for them and many others around them.
People have agency and can do self-harm. It's hard to witness when you care about someone, when it affects you too. It sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Your H is trying to set boundaries. I know this word is delicate as he more or less pulled it out of a hat when his C dropped it on his lap. He appears, to my remote perspective, as someone who's long been doing what other expected of him and very afraid of going against it. A "nice guy" in the worst sense of the term. Now he's throwing a tantrum typical of such "nice guys" who blow up after holding in for too long. It's unfair that you be the victim of it, and it's also sad that he should suffer so much from it. It sounds like he would actually need the support of a spouse at the moment, not be in the middle of a D.
What I'm learning in my S is that my wife has both relieved me from any responsibility towards he well-being and herself from owing me anything. She tells me every few weeks how much alcohol she takes, which is way too much. Yes, I'm concerned, but no I can't do anything unless it affects the kids. She can self-medicate with alcohol, she can push us deeper into the rabbit hole of D because of it, but it's no longer for me to reason her, to save her. It's very hard for me to accept as someone who's been, or considered himself to be, the "voice of reason" in the couple, stating what's often obvious ("alcohol is not a solution to your problems"). She may have to hurt to learn the lessons and it will be painful to see, especially as it affects me.
DB is not only about saving ourselves from D and perhaps reconciling, it's also about finding new ways to be to avoid the mistakes of the past. In my case, I'm learning not to criticize. Obviously, I'm still not very good at it and have much to learn. In your case, it's up to you to see and decide how you need to change to increase your chances of success in love in the future. I'm suggesting that you may be more controlling that even you realize. Perhaps you're not ready to hear it, at a moment where you feel that control would dig you out of a deep hole, and perhaps I'm completely wrong. It's a journey and there's no need to come to a conclusion today.
I am not a vet. I'm just in the middle of a struggle like you. All I can do is help you think about your sitch. I'm not one to give you advice based on my success for instance. I don't take any offense when you reject my analysis, I'm fully aware that I don't have to live with the consequences of your conclusions, only you do.
I hope this helps.
C,
You need to calm down. You need to cool your head for a minute or so. Perhaps you do not see it, but when we read your posts we can feel the turmoil inside you.
You won't accomplish anything in this state of mind. Breath and then breath some more to have a clear mind and make decisions on whatever.
From were I am sitting you sound very depressed yourself. Are you taking any anti depressant? Just something to take the edge of this pressure and anxious time?
Hey, and I am not being rude or making fun of you. I am myself hurting too. Unfortunately for us, we can not cry loud and get what we want.
These crazy words show how you are not well right now... I need to know what is going on? Why, why you need to know?
Do you know where is he living already? It seems that for now his parents show up to help him.
Honey, you also need some help, maybe a good cry with a friend or family, it would make you feel good. You need to give some space to your H, maybe some time off (maybe a feel days) will take the pressure away for both of you. And then in a few days maybe you too can have a decent conversation.
I sure never want to go surfing on a hurricane stage 5, you see all about that scenario would be the end of me. So, take a few days to regroup, you don't need to hurry so much and destroy so much.
Again I ask, what you think you can accomplish when you are so mixed up yourself, when it is all boiling inside your head and your heart?
Think about what is your goal, what do you want with this conversation, what is the impression you want to leave, what different in you he will see next time. If you are afraid of the D, then don't push to it. The more you act this way the further he will want to be from you.
Think...Think... Think... and thiiiiiiinnnkk a little more.
Try to make sense on all the middle and the ends will be justified.
Hope you are feeling better. No one is taking you pain for granted. But re read your posts when you feel better and you will see the desperation we can see from outside.
Hugs,
XOXO,
Pink
Calibri,
Are you okay, sweetie?
Hey C,
Hope you are just taking a break from the board but is doing well, as you can at this point, of course.
You have a lot ahead of you. You have a lot to hope for too. This storm will pass, things will settle. It's not all done even if you decide to keep to yourself right now.
There are times where we can't see things can get better, but time is a good friend not only for you but for your H too. You both need this time.
Your H has a lot of work to do on himself and it may be his good break to find a purpose that he is looking for. Don't be all negative, after a tsunami there is always rebuilding.
Like in my sitch, I can't tell if we will ever have our Hs back, our M back, but I can't stop living and there should be another day. It's hard, but many people survived this and are happy with themselves. If it came to terms that there will be reconciliation, then fantastic.
But if its time to walk in different paths them we need to find ours. The wound will be always there, we can ignore it and have another bad R, or even worse, be bitter forever. Or we can learn and find ourselves in a better R, giving love and being loved, with more understand of how fragile a marriage can be.
Have hope, while there is life there is always something new to learn, to see, to live.
I hope you take to your heart that you will be OK, one way or the other. It is not the end of Calibri, there is always tomorrow.
Hugs to you in this time of pain,
XOXO,
Pink
C, whats going on? Everything ok?
Hey C,
Sending a bat signal for you!!! I saw that you answered Ss's bat signal...how about mine?!
Don't be shy and come out to give us an update soon so I don't have to go to the ER for an heart attack that didn't need to happen at all.
There's nothing really to say Wonka.
He wants a divorce. Very firm. Apologizes that it's not what I want and will be upsetting to me but he "doesn't have it in him to work on the marriage because he's done and doesn't want it." He can't see how it could be fixed. And why would he, he doesn't want it.
Can't give me a reason why he was miserable. Can't give me a reason why he wants a divorce other than "he doesn't have it in him."
Apparently coming home every day to me was such a struggle for him and he was so unhappy. He's at rock bottom and depressed, but happier in that state than he was with me.
He is however, going to work on the relationship with his parents. He has enough energy for that.
Blood is thicker than water. No matter how toxic it may be.
There's nothing to say. There's nothing to do. He's gone. The man I married is gone. And he's not coming back.
And there's really nothing to do or say about it.