I'm going to do my best to keep this as comprehensive as possible. You can see the dates of events in my signature! We have been together 10 years and married for 8.5. I saved my wife from an abusive relationship, which ended up with her pursuing me, and then us eventually becoming married. Life hasn't been too easy for us with putting me through grad school, having our amazing son, putting her through grad school, and job position changes and a very independent son.
Six years ago we went through a very difficult financial situation while I was in grad school. My wife hit me one day that she was going to leave, move back up to her parents (2 hours away), and she said she was going to divorce me according to the recommendation of a therapist. We ended up reconciling fairly quickly.
Shortly after we had my son, and my wife became consumed with him (I love how much she loves him, even though it is not necessarily healthy). At first I was consumed with work and providing for the family. I realized after the first year that I need to cut back, and I did. From that point on I always felt like I was married to my son's mother. Not all times were bad at all, and I did not realize how badly she felt. During the preceding years, we put her through grad school and helped get her started in her career, at which she is amazing.
I ended up being promoted to supervisor, we got a new CEO, and then for the past two years I've been fighting to keep the team alive under him. I didn't realize it until this past month that I allowed it to drain me and leave nothing for my wife or child (currently working on searching for new employment).
A little about my wife, she is an amazing woman (wish I had told her more!) that also suffers from depression and generalized anxiety, both are medicated. She gained a fair amount of weight at the beginning of our medication from a new med at that time, gained while pregnant, and did not lose it all. I never held it against her and still always thought she was beautiful.
Five to six weeks ago she started reconnecting with friends. I didn't realize at that time, but I responded in a needy way, because I was jealous. I've been saying for almost a year that I want my wife back. Four and a half weeks ago, over the phone she told me that she is unhappy and uncertain if we can fix it. I started to respond in a needy way, but then I backed off some. For the next couple weeks it was an emotional roller coaster. I've gotten mixed messages from her (touch, hugs, kiss on Christmas) but it was mixed with coldness. She's constantly on her phone, texting and Facebook. New Years Eve we went out, but she wanted to leave early, especially after the awkward dinner at one of her favorite restaurants. ON the way home, I got the "I love you but" talk after I tried to explain what was bothering me. I didn't get to ring in the New Year's with my wife. She went to sleep. She has been spending more time up at her parents' area and leaving our child with me, which was fine because I've been trying to work on his and my relationship (doing much better!).
Last Tuesday I bolted awake and decided to check out what bills needed to be paid, since she hasn't paid them from last month. I found many, many phone calls of significant length since the beginning of December (an old guy friend of her's from back home). I went to confront her (mistake), and she told me that she wanted to talk anyway. She interviewed for a job back home the prior weekend and was offered the position. She wants to do a separation and get space, since she feels it will definitely end in divorce if she stays. I reluctantly agreed. She listed a lot of complaints about her health declining in the relationship, my lack of parenting, our constant arguing (mostly over our son, since we both have different styles and couldn't compromise), and me constantly focusing on finances. I begged, I plead, and didn't do what I needed to do in the right way. (continuing in next post due to length of this)
Hi Squiggy, welcome to the Board, though I am sorry to see you here. You will find great people and advice here.
A couple of questions for you - have you read Sandi's 37 Rules? Also, have you picked up and read DR? You have my best wishes.
All your w is thinking about right now is the other man.
Life will show her on its own all she is giving up.
Work on being the best version of yourself you can be.
A few questions - is she taking your son far to go back home?
That seems like a big issue and she needs to know that even if she wants a d or a Seperation she can not legally take your son more then 60 miles to relocate. (In my state 60 is the standard)
So sorry! I didn't realize that my post was approved. Let me quickly finish what I was typing, then I'll respond. She also added that her anxiety has been peaking so high that she feels physically ill, started smoking again (we both quit for our son), and has been drinking wine every night. She sees the efforts I am taking, but she does not appreciate them as she should. I will have my child every Thursday through Sunday. My wife was shocked I did not kick her out of the home. She finished the conversation by saying she loves me deeply, I'm her best friend, and her family. The next day I went to my mother's house and had my full on breakdown. I started to give her space and didn't bring up the R. I have spent a tremendous amount of time with my child, and everyone is noticing a tremendous improvement in our relationship. The following day I told her that I will respect her decision, but one condition I have is that we respect our marriage with no EA/PA while separated. She did say "But we are separated" (yes, I see what she said!).
It was a rough weekend, but I tried to pick myself up and move on. I spent a lot of time on these forums reading stories. She returned Sunday night and noticed that I cleaned the house from top to bottom and bought groceries, to which I replied that it was no big deal. She said it was. Tuesday after work, she asked if I wanted to go out to dinner as a family, and I accepted. We had a good time.
Then I messed up the next day...I bolted awake again, and decided it was time to look for a new job, since my current one has been a major drain on me and our marriage. I went onto Facebook (evil place...) to message someone for a reference and saw a picture posted by this guy with an old photo of them and present ones of them (not together) saying 15 years and counting <3. I overreacted, but I confronted her in the bedroom in a loving tone asking for an explanation. She was defensive but stated he was the friend she helped through depression and suicide (we are both therapists) over summer that wanted to hang out with her and I. She said that six years ago she made that mistake. I'm currently taking it with a grain of salt, but I do want to trust my wife. She stated she is trying to reconnect with friends so that she does not feel isolated, since her father doesn't support her decision (he is very angry with her for seemingly giving up). I apologized deeply for breaking her trust and explained that my intention was not to be snooping, I understood he posted it, and asked what I could to do make amends, to which she responded stop accusing her.
Last night she also asked about going to dinner, Mexican or Chinese, and I responded with the names of two restaurants. I ended up picking one that is more friendly to my son. We had a good dinner.
This morning I tried to get our son ready for school, which I've been doing these past 3 weeks. He threw such a tantrum that he ran out in just his underwear (33 degrees outside) when she put her stuff in the car. I ran out to grab him and said this is why we need to start working on some things (mistake). She told me that she is not changing her mind about moving up north and I don't need to be mad at her. I responded that I am not mad at her. I was referring to our child, and even though I wouldn't have chosen the path she did, I will support her need for space.
Wet - Thanks for the reply. She is very likely part of an EA. I didn't mention in my previous post that six years ago she did seek an EA. I have the rules printed off and read them every day to stay centered. I plan on getting DR today after I pick my kid up from school. She is gone this weekend to search for an apartment, and it is an opportune time to read the book without her present.
Bklynmom - Yes, it is more than 60 miles away, more like 120.
So far I've been working on detaching, GALing, and accepting that I have no control over her. I have accepted the fact that I did contribute to where our marriage currently is. I plan to become the best father, friend, and husband I can be, whether that is for her or for someone else and have spent much time on analyzing what it takes for me to return back to who I was when we met and become an even better version.
Right now I just struggle with how to interact while in limbo. She got turned down for one apartment and is going up this weekend to apply to three more with her father helping her (secret hope he will talk...). She is supposed to move up there this upcoming Friday. I agreed to help her move, and it will be just the two of us and our son.
I also forgot to mention that she said divorce is not even on the table, and she does not want to consult with a lawyer.
I have a mixed amount of hope and despair at that thought and have been analyzing things way too much. I am working on me at this point and remembering how strong I truly was as a person to be confident in my job, willing to save someone from an abusive relationship, and even consign for that person on an apartment well before we were even dating.
Quick update... Reading DR right now.
Beginning goals
1. Continue to spend more active time with my son and improve our relationship.
2. Start taking control of my finances again.
3. Lose this extra weight for the first time in my life to help with the confidence I've lacked.
DR is a good read. I've read through Step 5 and then Chapter 10, since those are the sections that apply to my current sitch. I know that right now I cannot do step 4 due to her feeling the need to separate, and it would only serve to further push her away.
Relationship goals
1. For her to start spending time with me.
a. She initiates conversation about more than our son
b. She approaches me about watching our favorite TV shows
c. She engages in future talk about activities we can do together or as a family.
2. For her to be more loving and affectionate
a. She hugs me
b. She holds my hand
c. She sits next to me on the couch
3. We have open communication
a. She shares her passwords with me
b. She tells me about all her friends
c. She tells me, without my asking, her plans
Those are the goals I've thought of. Feel free to hit me with a 2x4 if they are not in the right direction. I just know that they seem to be goals that let me know she is stepping towards me and opening up. The last one is a straight LBS goal, but open and honest communication is something very important to me in a relationship and one I teach all my therapy clients.
Another update and ready for criticism on how I handled it.
Was out to dinner with my son, his grandmother, and my aunt (they haven't seen him in two weeks). Wife tried to video call, and I did not answer. Returned home and played with my son while also working on neglected home improvement (a sign of how our marriage has been).
Wife messaged that she called earlier and then asked how our son was. Replied that we were out, and I forgot to call back and said we had an awesome day. She asked where we went and what we did. I just answered that we watched TV, played, worked around the house, and went out to dinner. She asked if he was good, and I said absolutely. Then she told me she got approved for an apartment, and S5 will be able to bring his cat. I said Ok, then she asked What? I answered by saying I"m just acknowledging. Her response was Um ok. THought you would be happy that I was able to get something figured out for us. I waited a few minutes and then replied I'm happy that you got it worked out for you. I know that'll be some stress off your shoulders. You can call and tell meabout it, if you want. I just sat down 15 minutes ago, so I'm not into anything yet. She responded that she'll just call tomorrow and tell me while she tells S5. I said Fair enough. Good night.
Was I detached enough? Did I do more of the same thing? I realize that part of my More of the same thing is not engaging in her interests and not reflecting her feelings enough, but this is a tough one to do!! What do you guys think?
I seem to be stuck in approval.
So she found an apartment after being turned down for one previously. I guess that moves us into another phase of this problem. I've had a great weekend with my son, and he has followed every direction and been happy. She called to tell him (us) about the place. I told her that I am sorry if I seemed short last night and hurt her feelings. I explained that I had such a busy day with my son amd housework that I was tuted. Took the opportunity to compliment her diligence, which is something I admire in her.
She looked bad. Said she couldn't sleep all weekend, and she went apartment hunting with her father. I'm trying not to mindread, and yet I do feel sorry for her. If I can get these posts approved, I would love any input from you guys. I've read a ton of posts so far and see such a wonderful community. I know there is much wisdom waiting to be tapped that could help me reflect on the best course of action to take to save my marriage.
I wanted to give a little update on my own personal changes. I just had the most amazing weekend with S5! We spent the entire time together from early in the morning until his bedtime in happiness. He responded to me in such a positive way that it reinforces my own personal goal of getting closer to my son and has me finally charged with a PMA. I heard so many I love you Daddy's, got so many hugs, and watched him follow directions so well. I am proud of this little guy!
The only difficulty we had was after he spoke with W over video chat. He was frustrated for about an hour, and I let him work it out by showing him loving support, where I would get frustrated as well in the past.
Regardless of what happens in my M, taking a 180 with my son over these past few weeks is bringing us so much closer.
Journaling..
My wife stayed up north last night, and I had to break the news to S5 that she would not be home. It broke my heart to hear him say "Mommy doesn't love me". Instead, I held him close, reassured him that she absolutely did, and stayed with him until he got comfortable.
Detaching has been fairly easy today, even though I do slip up in my thoughts occasionally and get stuck in mind reading. I am curious as to why she hasn't been sleeping, and, unfortunately, my therapist mind started coming up with hypotheses. For the most part I have been able to drop it when I start thinking about it though, because I realize I have no control over the situation or reasons why she may have had that. It shouldn't be that big of a deal to me other than the fact that I do love her deeply and want to see her happy, especially after her good news of getting the apartment.
Otherwise, the detachment has lead me to have such an amazing morning with S5 where he fully dressed himself head to toe and showed it off to me, ate his breakfast quietly while I got ready, and played hide and seek around the car for a minute while putting my things in it. I then went to work and lead an amazing team meeting (I'm actually a supervisor to a team of therapists). They all pointed out how strong I sounded and took away a lot from the meeting.
All in all it's been a great day. I do own the fear I have in regards to what may wait for me when I get home. At the end of the day though, I've realized, and hope I can follow through with, that I have to accept what is happens, unconditionally love her, and validate whatever it is she is feeling. I'm working on giving my relationship over to God (reconnecting spiritually after many years of not doing so), and still praying for her and my son every day, sometimes several times a day.
What a bad day. Got tipped off that that friend I mentioned posted a Facebook (hate that website) profile pic of him and my wife with her happy holding one of his arms, and she's begun purging her contacts from here, including my family. That was very difficult to swallow, but I'm trying my hardest to detach.
She messaged me saying she wanted to talk about finances for the move after I came home. She was busy packing. She didn't bring them up until further in the conversation. She mentioned she noticed that I had fixed some things around the house that needed done and asked me why I waited so long. I told her that I'm making changes, and the big project is part of that. She then proceeded to ask me why I haven't done that over the ten years (rewriting), and I told her that I have no answer for it other than she brought it out of me by being brave and pointing out what I could do better.
I unfortunately got wrapped up in relationship talk for too long. I spoke of how I've realized the things I've done wrong in the relationship. I don't want our old marriage, because we only put on a band-aid last time we went through a rough patch. It felt like most of the conversation that I wasn't needy and began showing the strength of my true self I am rediscovering based on her reactions. I came from a point of unconditional love. At one point she said that You can't love someone until you love yourself. I said you're right, and at the same time I'm very happy with feeling more like the old me. I feel confident that my relationship with S5 is highly improving, and it is amazing. Said too much by saying I want to be amazing with her.
To wrap it up, I see some of the mistakes I made, and yet I think I was fairly detached...Not great yet. It hasn't ruined my night, and I have a weird inner calm. She ended up leaving the house to get packing tape, and it is hard not to assume she is talking to him. Letting it go.... Time for another prayer.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The earlier detachment has disappeared. This roller coaster hurts so badly. I hear her packing things up in the kitchen, and it is tearing me apart. I try to have hope, and yet I have friends asking me why she took them off Facebook and asking me why this other guy has a picture of the two of them together. Each one I hear takes another little piece of me with it.
I'm trying to have hope and stay strong. She said she is not able to give me the answer I want of whether or not she is willing to work on the marriage until after she gets up there. She also mentioned earlier that her father is urging her to work on the marriage. He has always been the rock she leaned on that helped her through many of her earlier challenges. I pray that he softens her heart.
I will continue, once I get past this weak time tonight, to work hard on myself, show her the strong me, and GAL as much as possible. I know deep in my heart that I will be fine. I've struggled for everything I have, and this is just another challenge that I have to face.
Just doing another journal entry today.
As an update to what is going on, I sent her a message asking her to e-mail me the account login/passwords for all the bills. She responded that she was busy and would not get it today. I told her I understand, and let's just make sure we have it done before she moves. The part that baffles me, and I realize it is mind reading, is she asked "Why? I can still pay them." As part of my 180s, I told her "I'll take care of them. I don't want you to have to worry about them on top of the rest."
I feel like someone is working through me and this situation. I only slept about 3 hours last night and did a ton of thinking. While my conversation with her last night might not have been the best route to take, I did come away with peace from admitting my faults (a 180), showing her that I am focusing more on how I connect and am doing Acts of Service (a 180), and putting my son so much more forward in my life (another 180). I reflected that the same effect is coming through her father with his stance, and he is not the type to budge, on her committing to working on this marriage. Finally, it is amazing how everyone I have surrounded myself with over the years are lifting me up and giving me the support to move forward. With all of these in place, I am at peace with my sitch as it stands. The stories people here are telling give me courage that in the end, I will be fine. And because I am working hard to rediscover my true self, I am reminding myself that I am strong alone.
It's amazing how things work out sometimes to your benefit. I had some down time after staffing with a member of my team and decided to do a Google search on surviving infidelity. The very first article that came up talked about a husband that found detachment only when OM was confirmed by friends. It rang a bell in my head, and it has been much easier since I read the article, at least for today.
My three closest friends all volunteered to help me move my wife on Saturday. It took them all of five minutes to get cleared with their wives. It's good to have people that care enough about you to support you at your lowest point.
I am still keeping hope and I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. I do want to save my marriage, which is why I'm here and tore through a (very good) book in under two days. I readily admit I have much work to do. I'm struggling to identify all the possible ways I can GAL when the days I will not have S5 I work two 12 hour days and one 10 hour day.
Squiggy,
It sounds like you have made great progress with your son. Your W gave you a gift, that gift is that you have a fantastic relationship with your son now. Don't forget that.
I am slightly confused. Is there definitely another man?
I think you are doing great. You obviously don't mind reading. I suggest reading more. After I read DB and DR. I read the Solo Partner which has a great section on the pursuer distancer dynamic.
Thanks mahhhty. I am loving the relationship I am building with my son. I walked into the house tonight to Daddy!! just like I have been for the past month. It makes my heart soar. As I said to her last night, he and I will be amazing.
I should also add that it really seemed to bother her that S5 and I were playing so well together in the living room. Best part about it is that it felt so right to be doing so.
I don't have definitive proof per se, but all the signs are there. All the hiding, focus on appearance, clothes, social media connections, him posting a photo of them sitting next to each other as his profile pic (someone showed me), planning events together, you name it. Even though I do love my wife deeply, I feel like I'm watching a train wreck right now. I described it to a friend of mine as watching an addict start to self-explode. I really just feel bad for her and the pain she is putting herself through. She's not been sleeping well since last week (finally joining my club) and doesn't look well. Sadly, this is her choice, not mine.
Pursuer/Distancer...one of the first links!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574. Thank you for that 2x4. Taking the basic concept I've seen on that thread and the web, it would help to explain last week's meals and interactions. I stopped being a pursuer, so she put herself in front of me. I started giving her Words of Affirmation, and she appeared to be confused. A lot of the Pursuer dynamic explains the role I took in our marriage. The Distancer shows a lot of what she did and is doing, such as needing "space" and "time". So my course of action of detachment and distance should be a good thing. I may be thinking about this wrongly and would greatly accept any corrections to my application.
Just something I noticed today, and I'm trying my hardest to not mind read. As I mentioned in my last post, things are going great with my son and my PMA is getting stronger each day. I even made sure to told her to have a good day today. Last night while playing with my son, my wife had another ring on her ring finger and has had it there for two days. She even tried to argue last night about helping her move, and I defused the situation. This morning my son got dressed very quickly (big change for him) before W was even out of the shower. When she came down, she had her wedding rings on. Am I noticing too much? It's not stopping my day, and at the same time I couldn't help but notice and ask. Still taking it day by day.
Rough time detaching today. Can't get her out of my mind. I'm not home for another 4.5 hours, and then I get to see my son again. It is hard loving someone so much when they are being so unlovable. I haven't had an opportunity to read more posts today, which usually helps me get through. Even though I haven't been in communication with many of you, just reading your stories gives me strength that I can get through this.
Hi Squiggy, it must be terrible to have your W ready to leave you with only 2 days left. I am sorry you are going thru this.
Are there things that you can do to get out of the house to keep yourself busy? Stay away from snooping as this will also help with detaching. No more R talks. I hope that you are not helping her with her move.
And keep up the good work on being the father to your son. And keep growing closer to God, this is the best way of staying strong thru this painful journey that you are on. Be wise!
What other issues did she complain about that you needed to work on? You mentioned both you and your W are therapists. What type?
Wet, thanks for dropping in again! These 2 days are definitely going to be rough. I do think I'll find some sort of peace after Saturday. I plan to go NC except for things relating to my son. Between DR and the Pursuer/Distancer mahhhty showed me, I think it's the best.
It's going to be hard getting out of the house. Mondays and Wednesdays I work from 9-9, and Tuesdays are normally until 6/7. Thursday-Sunday is when I should have my son, which I will consume all my time with him. I have some close friends that I will most likely spend more time with as well as the gym.
I've stayed away from snooping. It's not healthy at all. Monday's R talk was initiated by her, but I did stay in it for way too long. I am helping her to move on Saturday. I'm conflicted, because to do so would be a 180 for me, as you'll see in my response to MrBond. Her second LL is Acts of Service, and this would be speaking to it. I do want her to experience her choice, and at the same time I feel helping would be the best choice. Besides, it'll give me more closure on our old marriage. I won't be alone in the move, though, and will have 2 or 3 of my best friends with me to help me with the physical labor and after effect.
Still praying every day. Asking for strength, guidance, protection for my son, and help for the hurt inside my W.
MrBond, I am the same kind of therapist as MWD. Have an MSW and LCSW (clinical license). I primarily work with families of adolescents, couples, and adults. I believe it's part of the reason why I understand DB fairly well for being a newcomer, because I use a lot of similar approaches in therapy. However, it's always harder to implement when it's your own situation. W is an MSW as well. W is mostly children and some family work.
Let's try to get a list...
-Criticism
-Not being present while in the home
-Her feeling like she has to mother me
-Not making her feel special
-Not being a present father to our son
-Letting work consume me
I've started working on 180s related to most of these.
-Criticism into validation and listening/not fixing.
-Not being present into being in the living room with both of them in the evening.
-Her needing to mother me into Acts of Service (housework, taking care of son, will be taking over the house bills, etc.).
-Not making her feel special into Words of Affirmation.
-Not being a present father into spending positive time with my son by playing, being firm but supportive, showing greater affection, and helping with caring for him (feeding, dressing, washing, bed time, brushing teeth, etc.).
-Letting work consume me into much stronger boundaries when coming home, and I'm now searching for a new job that will give me my time at home again.
I used to be the strong, independent guy that would let problems roll over me while I solved them. I used to be helpful, appreciative, and openly caring. I'm working hard to rediscover myself, and co-workers, friends, and family are really noticing and complimenting me on it. I am trying to be consistent in front of her in my efforts, not just for but mainly because I miss the person I used to be. Sad that it took such a traumatic event to make me realize it.
"I've started working on 180s related to most of these.
-Criticism into validation and listening/not fixing. "
Did you criticize her or maybe give the impression that your POV was better than hers?
"-Not being present into being in the living room with both of them in the evening. "
What would you do if you weren't with them?
"-Her needing to mother me into Acts of Service (housework, taking care of son, will be taking over the house bills, etc.). "
Are you sure that's what she meant by "mothering" you?
"-Not making her feel special into Words of Affirmation."
Did she tell you before that's what her primary LL was? Did you ever put her down?
"-Not being a present father into spending positive time with my son by playing, being firm but supportive, showing greater affection, and helping with caring for him (feeding, dressing, washing, bed time, brushing teeth, etc.)."
Any reason why you weren't a present father before?
"-Letting work consume me into much stronger boundaries when coming home, and I'm now searching for a new job that will give me my time at home again."
Did she want you to spend more time at home?
Just trying to get some clarity.
-Criticism into validation and listening/not fixing. "
Did you criticize her or maybe give the impression that your POV was better than hers?
Her complaint was that I always had to be right. I've come to realize that it's because I was taught to defend my position. Instead, I need to trust that she can handle things and just listen.
"-Not being present into being in the living room with both of them in the evening. "
What would you do if you weren't with them?
I would be so drained from work, and what I now recognize as depression, that I would go sit in the basement and disappear to get rid of stress.
"-Her needing to mother me into Acts of Service (housework, taking care of son, will be taking over the house bills, etc.). "
Are you sure that's what she meant by "mothering" you?
Yes. I used to take care of everything. Then I stopped, from big to little things and asked her to do it.
"-Not making her feel special into Words of Affirmation."
Did she tell you before that's what her primary LL was? Did you ever put her down?
Early on in my sitch after the BD, I did a lot of thinking and came across a LL quiz. We both took it. She is Words/Acts, and I am Quality time/Physical touch. Criticism is a put down for her.
"-Not being a present father into spending positive time with my son by playing, being firm but supportive, showing greater affection, and helping with caring for him (feeding, dressing, washing, bed time, brushing teeth, etc.)."
Any reason why you weren't a present father before?
I allowed other worries and concerns drain me to the point of not being emotionally available in the way that I should have. I also did not have the best role model for a father and didn't catch myself falling into his shoes. He is a farmer's son and expected obedience and distance.
"-Letting work consume me into much stronger boundaries when coming home, and I'm now searching for a new job that will give me my time at home again."
Did she want you to spend more time at home?
Not so much that as not letting it be my #1. In our first problem 6 years ago, I wasn't supporting her in the way I should, and she had to keep us afloat. I promised myself that I would never put her in that position again, and so I went hard to work providing for my family. I took it too far and put too much of myself into it, and I did not see what I was sacrificing.
Ah. Got it.
In your practice, do you assist any marriage counseling? What has your experience been? Has it clouded any of your judgements when applied to your own situation?
I'm usually very good at keeping boundaries between work clients and home. I work with married couples fairly regularly on all types of issues ranging from communication and problem solving to intimacy.
The main issue is that I did not apply what I teach couples and families to my own situation. I'm actually laughing at this, but I remember my mother asking me earlier on in this what I would tell my clients. I spent about 3 minutes rattling things off to her. The difference is that the majority of my clients are willing to work on the marriage, and I can remain objective without my emotions clouding my vision. Think of a doctor operating on their parent or child. Same scenario.
It is so sad watching someone crash. She overspent on our bank accounts, and now we have no money. No one is helping her, not even her family. Second night she is going to bed early while I played with S5. She did mention that even I wouldn't have any money to live on next week, and I said I'd be ok. I have enough friends and family supporting me in this that I will be fine. One even slipped me $20 earlier to get some gas and a soft drink for my session. W asked me for help, and I stated that the only way I was able to help is now gone. It pained me to see her scrambling to connect with people she thought she could rely on.
Thank God for detachment. Although it hurts to watch this happen, I got to hear "You're the best daddy ever!" I know I'm going to be fine in the end. Time to get back to figuring out how to continue improving myself. I want to be the husband a wife is a food to leave.
Its amazing how much better a moment gets with a little validation from a munchkin!
That guy is absolutely amazing! He have me the shield I needed to deal with the night. W is stressed and not being friendly. I'll give her the space she wants. PMA is definitely going to be my motto.
I don't understand. Both of you are therapists and you're scrambling for cash?
In your experience, have you ever counseled a couple with the same situation you are in?
What do I do about her leaning on me to help with the move? I've decided that one of my 180s needs to be being a greater friend, which is stepping up to support her decision even when I don't agree (not fixing it for her). She called me and asked about the UHaul and picking it up. I said I'll take care of getting it and already have my son covered during that time. She did get it worked out on the financial situation and is now not going to put either one of us in a horrible situation. She asked if I needed a list of things, and I responded that yes, because we haven't talked about what is going and what isn't. I said I'd also need to know what's is going from the garage. She responded that she figured we would wait until it got warm, and then we can grab what she needed. I picked up on how that is a statement of finality. My heart sank some.
How do I move beyond the thought that she is preparing to let me down slowly? That she already has a plan. I do want to save this marriage, but right now it feels pretty bleak. Guess this is part of the roller coaster ride. I'm not changing in my efforts to become a better person, but this is seriously a punch in the gut. What do you guys think?
In your interactions with her, has she been mean spirited? If so, don't help her move. You can't be rewarding bad behavior.
No, she hasn't been mean at all. Last night she was definitely stressed and a bit short about the money situation. Today she was much more pleasant.
And now that I think about it, I'm questioning another decision during the separation talk. I had agreed to keep covering the cell phone and car insurance. I did this so that I could still talk with my son and make sure he got to school. She had also mentioned that her and I could talk about things. As I said in a previous post, she was still doing some future talk. I haven't heard any of that in the past two weeks. If I pull the plug, she will absolutely be screwed for money, which would effect my son as well for half the week. It would make me much more comfortable. Tough decision since I obviously want to reconcile, but I'm thinking it may be a boundary I need to set, since she is wanting to experience life on her own. (can't if there is an OM in the picture...)
If you're worried about your son, is there a way for you to get more custody of him? Just because she has no car insurance isn't your problem. It's hers. She wants out, she can't expect you to rescue her.
The problem with the custody relates to how I work late nights teo days of the week, and that would not be good for his schedule (picking him up at 9pm or later) . I havr a huge amount of support from family and friends that will help, and still I want him to have the best chance possible.
I thought more of the boundaries also. Train's threads gave me some inspiration. I am thinking of saying that I will cover those two bills for three months to allow her to get her feet under her, because I want them to be happy (a 180 with AoS).. And then we can decide where we are and go from there.
On the one hand, it shows I care and am looking out for them. On the other, it does reinforce that I will move on if she does not start wanting to work on things. It is also borderline R talk, so I'mtrying to think of how to spin it, or if I should let it go. She never has been on her own without someone bailing her out, whether it was her father, a BF, or me. I've been alone and thrived. I remember one year I grossed $18k (was 23 at the time) and put $6k in savings. She's never experienced that.
Ok, so help me understand this conversation, and I'll try to be coherent as possible, since I was so highly focused on DBing, and this was over about a 1.5 hour period.
Tonight is her last night in this house. I came in as I have been and started playing with my son. At one point she asked me if this is still going to be OUR house with her able to come in if she wants to. I replied that she is moving this weekend, and I don't know how she is wanting this to play out. The separation will either be 1. we are really separated and acting like it, or 2. we are separated but actively working on things. I told her that I'm really trying to work on myself and R with son, and I'm going to keep moving forward. She needs to decide what she wants at this point. She said she thought the idea was for us to work on things (first I've heard this in 2.5 weeks), but it seems like I haven't been wanting to all this week (her noticing my detachment/distance??). I replied that she already knows what I want and that I've been giving her space. This is not my choice, but I've been trying to support her the best I could and let her lead instead of fixing it. She replied that it is indecisiveness that was a problem in our R not the fixing. I validated and then told her that once she told me when/where, I have already worked out all the details of Saturday, including cooking breakfast for those helping me. She seemed shocked.
Keep in mind, the whole time I have S5 rolling around laughing from tickling and wrestling.
I said we have some things to figure out, such as finances, the final furniture decisions, and talking on the phone with S5. She said calling any time is perfectly ok (I plan to start a pretty good NC regimen except for bed time with S5). I stated that I would pay for the phone bill and car insurance for a while, but we'll revisit it in the future based on how things were (yay boundaries!!).
And then the confusing parts with future talk initiated by her...She wants to plan to do family things, both down here and up there. I said that would be nice. I asked about his school, and she told me what and where it is going to be, and then in the fall he can go to the same school as his cousin (deadline on R decision was to be August according to her). I acknowledged and stated it would be good for him to be in school with his cousin for the transition. She said something and then stated that Well, I was told I'd always have a job down here (at home).
We had a pleasant dinner. She went to pack more things, and then she said she had to go get another tote for her things. I worked really hard to not initiate the topics, not talk too much, avoid R talk as much as possible, and to really listen to what she is saying. Not mind reading is very hard for a therapist, FYI. It really seems like she starts to come close and then has to disappear...Right now I'm trying to accept this as part of the roller coaster, and at the same time those glimpses of hope just eat at me.
I should add that I am still suspicious of an A and am keeping that in mind in my interactions. I'm not going to compete. I will be the man she will be a fool to leave. I forgot to add to the above that she did make mention of noting some of the changes I've made.
The last night is over. She left for her last day at this job and will head up after. Tomorrow I move her things and then I'm alone. Based on what I've written so far, what should I do? NC except about my son was the plan, but she has beem taking my dim approach this week as me not wanting to work on things. What do you think is my best option?
I should add that she has left all the photos on the walls and her diplomas as well. All of them are very important to her. She said last night that she doesn't want the house to be empty. Is this typical WAW behavior?
Sometimes, I wonder if they are living in different reality --running away from everything. I know my W takes no pride/care in our house that we moved into a little over a year ago ---I think mainly because it represents the "us" and our family. Maybe the same holds true for all WAW's and that's why she left them behind.
My W/STBX is along the same lines. She took what she immediately wanted, but left all else to be dealt with by me. She was running to get out and focusing only on tasks related to divorce. She has now capacity to deal with any emotional problems and has made that very clear.
S5 really helped me. He came downstairs, saw that I was sad, and then he climbed into my lap and held me for a long time.
Maybe what you guys are saying is true. The WAS spouse is confusing. Leaving all this stuff, worrying about the house and it being our's instead of just mine, and them confronting me with positive future talk. Frustrates me to no end.
Journal entry...
It is amazing the effect of having a strong network of supports can have on a person. All day today it seems like someone is putting me in places where I am getting exactly the help I need at that moment.
I'm still mulling over yesterday's interactions, but since this morning and my son all the way through everyone else helping me, I am in a much better place with a PMA. I am going to be alright, even in the midst of my pain.
It ended up being a rough night. Had to break the news to S5's godmother (my "2nd mom"). She was heartbroken once she heard all the details and offered her support and prayers.
I'm trying to understand how to apply DR/DB to this separation. I've finally reached a point where I'm not bouncing around in my emotions, and it seems I'm thinking much more clearly, even though last night is still bothering me due to hope and doubt (sandi's rule of not believing anything they say). I will admit that any thoughts of S5 not being with me immediately make me start to tear up, even while I'm typing this sentence.
Do I go NC completely when we are not exchanging S5?
Do I follow my heart and call every day that I don't have S5 to ask about his day and wish him good night?
I don't want to initiate R conversation anymore, but I, apparently, need to keep letting her know I want to work on this.
Do I say no to family activities because we are separated? (read about this in MCS' sitch)
Is it ok to GAL and have my mother watch my son during my days with him, knowing one complaint from W is that I wasn't an active parent?
I've decided to ACT AS IF it won't be repaired, but I'm afraid of adopting it to such a degree that I detach too far.
I know that being the best father I can be is a 180 for both W and I.
Thanks to MCS's story, I think I just had a realization. If he is in fact an OM (not much doubt atm), it would be her replaying how her and I first got together. She was in a bad relationship (abusive), and I was there to listen and help save her. That is the role he is playing right now. I need to be her hero again.
What a day. This will be a long one while I sort my thoughts. Woke up at 7:30, got the U-Haul and moved all of her stuff into it with the help of my best friends. S5 is being amazing the whole time. We start to travel up, and W tries to call twice. I ignored. Sent her a message for the address when we were almost there. We get there, and she almost smelled like she was sweating alcohol, and one of my friends later told me she looked like she had been crying before we got there. She stated she will be ordering pizza later for everyone, and I said I had promised I would get them dinner for helping so much today.
BFs and I start knocking out the moving into her apartment while S5 is checking out the place. W isn't saying much during this time. Her 2 brothers show up, shake my hand, and tell me they are sorry for what is happening (to my knowledge they do not know details). Brother's GF wraps me up in a hug and held me for a long time. One of my friends later told me they noticed W's brothers looked unhappy about this whole situation the entire time.
Once we finished, in record time, I go out and hang with my friends to keep them company, since they were amazing. Saw S5 and his cousin playing outside with the GF and decided to join in on the fun! We played for about 10 minutes then W comes out and stands by me. She says Thank you so much for helping me out with this. I replied that it's not a problem at all (180 w/ Acts of Service). She asked what I thought of the place, and I responded that I'm sure she and S5 will be happy when he's here. Cable guy showed up and she excused herself to go inside. I go back to my friends, but then went in after a bit. GF was outside with us for a while and kept checking to see how I was doing. We go inside, S5 is not listening to W. I let her handle the problem, since it's her place. I'm still being cordial with her brothers (I do genuinely love her family). S5 is finally ready and is state that we need to leave so we can get friend back to his wife and kid. I should mention that the U-Haul got the side scraped...Don't ask. She was busy with her brothers getting things moved.
On the drive back, I get a phone call from her, let it got to VM, then check it later. It was about the scrape and saying I need to go in tomorrow to address it. She tried calling again when we were close to home, and I text back saying I was close and will call back later. I waited a full half hour later so I could say by to the friend with his W and S3, other friend is playing with S5 in the basement. I call back, and W starts telling me about them returning the U-Haul. I said I will take care of it tomorrow, and she doesn't have to worry about it. She's concerned about how much money we have to do it, and I said I have plenty of support if I need to borrow some.
Then she starts R talk again... "If we're going to work on this, you need to not be so angry." I explain that we started the day very early, moved what is practically the whole house, drove up, and moved the stuff into her apt. We were tired. She stated that it seemed like we didn't want to talk to anyone, and I repeated about being tired and needing to get friend back to his wife, which is why we left. Her voice starts trembling, and she sounded like she was about to cry. She thanked me for bringing S5 up even though both her parents thought it would be bad. She missed him. I responded that this is the reality of the situation. She won't have him all the time. I said that the situation changed when she separated from me. She states she realizes this. This isn't what she wanted, and she felt it was the best option. I validated her feelings and said I don't want it either. I reminded her that I said on Monday I want this marriage to work. She says she does too. Then I responded that right now I want her to take what time she needs to get some space. I'm working on me and S5 and will continue to do so regardless of the outcome of all this. She said she wants to be back to being herself again (second admission of responsibility for where we are). I told her I miss the person she was. She told me she just got groceries for the next couple weeks and forgot how hard it was by herself. I told her she's right. I had to do that two weeks ago, but I also have no problem doing it. We end up talking about some details about finances for the next couple weeks, then I excuse myself by needing to go to S5 and I will see her Monday.
The friend who was still here came up about 1/4 of the way through and told me he was proud and happy to see me going back to myself. I felt good after the conversation. I explained to him that I realize that she can't control my happiness now. I didn't feel hopeful during the conversation and felt emotionally detached.
How do you guys think I handled it? What could I do better?
I almost feel like this has a chance, but I'm also still keeping in mind the potential A that hasn't been addressed.
I meant to say in my last post that I didn't let hope take over.
Thanks to family members I'm now questioning whether I am being led along or not. This is difficult. I've taken assessment of what is left in the house and started making it my own. It's really weird that she left things that are precious to her all over. I started packing some of the things up. Framed wedding photos, the cake topper, and champagne glasses I left up for now. She's supposed to come here tomorrow to pick up S5 and pack up her old work office.
I'm really struggling, guys, and need some help. I'm trying so hard to have patience and keep a PMA, but right now I'm just down.
Quick question, if anyone is willing to take the time to look. I spent time yesterday making this mine and my son's home. Should I take down the marriage pictures she left up in the living room? I ask because she is going to be stopping by today to pick up S5 for the week.
Short answer is I would. My w only just moved out of our place and I took down all the pictures of her. She also left anything that represented a joint memory.
They are now safely packed away so they can always go back up.
I look at it as she us gone and pictures won't bring her back, but me healing and growing might and having those pictures up weren't going to help with that.
You need to make it your home, change stuff to make it his you want it.
As for the move it reads to me like you did pretty well (others are better placed to make the evaluation though)
Thanks for the response, Jim. I was swearing no one read my thread at all. Very difficult to go through this solo, and I really can't afford a DB coach at all.
To my surprise I got a text from FIL this morning. He told me he was sorry for not catching me on Saturday and that we will definitely talk in the near future. Told me to stay strong. I responded by thanking him and telling him that I was sorry I missed him too (we have a good relationship). I said I'm doing my best. S5 and I have had amazing times lately, and he is keeping me going regardless of what happens.
I cannot understand W at all. She came to the house to pick up S5. He and I were watching a show in the basement. She grabbed her diplomas and a couple other things she had forgotten that I set out for her. I thought I was being cordial and friendly. She looked at the wedding pictures that are still on the wall for a minute, and I said that I haven't decided what to do with them. She responded that there is no reason to do anything. I said ok. When she was in the kitchen, S5 asked "Mommy, why do you not want our family to be together?" It looked like that punched her right in the gut. I let her handle that question and then told her that I've said nothing like that to him. I've only told him that he is going to be living in two homes, and he will always have a home with daddy.
I follow them outside so I could say bye to S5. W looked unhappy, and I asked her to roll down her window and asked her what's wrong her eyes were red). She wouldn't say anything at first, then she said that if were going to work on things, I need to not be so rude. I asked her what she meant by that, since I didn't understand. She told me that I need to let go of the anger I seem to have. I apologized that she thought I was angry, because I'm not. I stated that I am unhappy about the situation and what it is doing to our family, but I'm not angry. She said I've been short in my responses to her. I said that she's been focused on the move, and I wanted to stay out of her way and not push her. I am waiting on her to decide how she wants this to work. She accepted that.
I went back to my son and gave him another kiss on the head and thanked him for a wonderful weekend. She then asked what I wanted to do about Thursday. Last week, when we discussed the exchange for this week, she said she was not going to spend 5 hours on the road on her birthday, so this was a change. I responded that she should have S5 there for her birthday, and I'll take him on Friday. Told her I had some things to take care of and wished them a safe trip.
What could I do better? I'm trying so hard to have a PMA around her and do the right thing. I feel fairly detached, mostly PMA all the time (S5 and I were rolling around laughing and playing all weekend). She still seems to see me as adversarial. Is this guilt on her part? Am I doing the wrong 180s? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Hello Squiggy. The reality is you did fine. You kept your PMA, kept up conversation, and tried not to show anger.
Some small things.. If she says you're angry... you can just say "You're right, I shouldn't be angry," instead of apologizing and saying "I'm not angry." So validate... don't apologize, don't argue with her perception of you, and don't talk about how you're unhappy.
You're just separated. This will take a long while most likely. Just work on getting to the point where you are someone you're W likes to deal with... validating what she says, showing your happiness, showing your strength while she is falling apart.
Most important... don't expect anything from her in return. Get to the point where you're not even looking for anything from her. That is detachment and will relax her around you... giving her the space she needs to reevaluate your R.
If it happens, it could take months. Get settled in and keep your approach simple.
Keep going.
Thanks HP. I'm trying hard to have patience and relax. It gets difficult when she keeps dangling the "working on things" in front of me. I understand these are great opportunities to catch onto what she is complaining about and respond in a different way. I guess I need to put a lot more effort into changing the way I validate to not include apologizing.
Squiggy, from my experience, your W may dangle the "working on things" to keep you calm and agreeable when she's not liking how you're being (like angry). It doesn't make a difference to what you need to do. Just keep consistently making your changes for YOU... b/c you want to be a better person who deserves a great relationship. Not so much more effort... just more belief in yourself and your growth. So yes relax and enjoy your child... this will take time.
Wise words coming from a wise man (been reading up on your story as well). I am truly amazed at how well S5 and I are doing. Everyone is making comments about it, and I am feeling the love coming from him. It was great hearing him say ILY, Daddy all weekend and when he was buckled in her car today. He is a wonderful son, and I'm glad I have the opportunity to make things right between us.
I'm getting closer to my mother and aunt, the only real family I have. My best friends are surrounding me and supporting me. My staff is kicking it into gear in response to the changes I'm making in myself and my expectations of them.
These next three days until I get S5 back again, I'm going to put her out of my mind as much as possible. I already took care of the U-Haul issue and informed her of what the manager said to do (heard her tell S5 she was running back to "OUR house to drop off some things"), opened up another bank account, will change my direct deposits to that one tomorrow, and am planning on continuing to make repairs to the house. Crap, I also need to come up with a budget. Guess I have plenty of things to keep me busy with all that and having 1.5 jobs, huh?
HPs advice seems pretty spot on to me. Work on yourself it is ultimately all you can do.
And in your interactions you need to try and hear what she is feeling rather than what she us saying. Sometimes what they say is projection of something else, sometimes its anticipation of what they think you think and sometimes its just nonsense.
"sometimes its anticipation of what they think you think". I think that might just be spot on. It would make sense that she would expect me to be projecting anger, since that is something I've done for far too long. Now that I think about it, last week S5 went storming upstairs, and I said he's just unhappy. She said I need to stop projecting onto him. Basically, that cheerful PMA needs to be in place when I'm around her. Now to get busy doing things that build it up. Gotta find some time to fit the gym in...
Hey squiggly
I'm in similar sit although my wife is in an affair. It's hard as we're still in same house for now. What you have to accept is you can only control you. You can not control what your wife does or thinks no matter how much you just want to shake and say wake up.
Is there OM involved do you know?
The control is something I struggle with daily. It's been much easier when she is not face to face with me, and I imagine these next three days I'll be more calm. After thinking of what jim said earlier, I forget that and don't act like I'm a therapist in all my dealings with my W. It's causing me to analyze what she says, try and select my words to push an outcome, and not be my genuine self. She married Squiggy who later became a therapist. Not the other way around.
I have a gut feeling there is an OM, but I've stopped worrying about it. Whether it is an EA or PA, I don't know. I was shown a picture from Facebook by a friend of my W leaning in very close and smiling with the guy I mentioned earlier in my story. I promptly told everyone who mentioned it to leave it alone. She has been focused on her weight, bought a lot of new clothes, has been protecting her phone, unfriended everyone associated with me from Facebook, changed her sleeping pattern, and left the house at night (before the move) and would be gone for an hour or so. I'm not going to try and compete with it, if it is there.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
My self challenges for this week. After reviewing the 180s, these seem to be the ones I struggle with the most.
So here's a couple of conundrums...
I'm going to take the pictures down. If she asks, what should I say?
This Friday is my paycheck. She has caused our account to go negative, and I can't afford gas for this week. She said our agreement was that it would pay for her first month's rent as well as putting in for S5's daycare. That pretty much takes most of my paycheck, especially when you consider there is a negative on the account now. What should I do? It damn near feels like I'm funding her move, and I'm not feeling ok with that.
She may not notice. If she asks, just say I decided to rearrange the rooms for a fresh look. And don't make it a big discussion.
Note to self: Have patience and STFU. I won't go into it other than saying we were talking about finances, and I said too much. She felt I was threatening to not cover the rent when I tried to establish a boundary related to her being on her own, and I feel I recovered fairly well. I need to not let myself go there again. I wasn't angry, didn't portray anger, kept a calm, reassuring voice, and tried to problem solve the finances. I just need to learn to STFU.
I also need to truly detach. Having read more about it, I have been looking at it the wrong way. It's more lovingly detach, and I have done it as putting up a wall. Don't have expectations. Don't let her emotions/reactions affect me and my efforts to move forward. OWN that the changes I'm making are for ME.
Interesting tidbit that makes me feel bad for her. S5 asked W while in the kitchen yesterday at the exchange, "Mommy. Why do you not want our family to be together?" I assured her later on that it did not come from me or anyone related to me. She was visibly shaken.
Putting some thoughts down and always open to criticism.
180s I am working on based upon her complaints in the M:
1. Not being involved enough with S5 - I am so completely dedicated to him right now it's not even funny. When he is with me, I am spending every waking minute playing and interacting with him. I've stepped up bath time, tooth brushing, playing, general caretaking, and lovingly establishing rules/boundaries instead of being too harsh.
2. Working more around the house - I've started projects around the house to repair/improve areas I have let go for too long. The house is about 80% cleaned from top to bottom (3 floors is a *****).
3. Being more independent - I have moved forward in opening a new bank account, getting direct deposits switched to the new account, getting bills in order and accounts switched to me, and I am back to cooking/cleaning for myself successfully.
4. Criticism - I feel like I am doing much better. It seems like she is still expecting it from me in her reactions to me. I try to validate as much as possible by reflecting her feelings and thoughts. I need to figure out a way to get better at this.
5. Taking her for granted - Part of this is me being more independent. I thanked her for taking out the trash on Monday, when that is normally something I do. Another part is stepping up in taking care of S5. I even told her to keep him on her birthday this week, because I know it is important to her. Out of all of these, this is the one I am having the hardest time with. She is now living 2.5 hours away, and my time with her is limited. Granted, it's only the first week, but I'm guessing it will stay this way for a while. So, I'm trying to work through her #1 priority, S5, and giving him the best relationship with his father as possible.
I know it sounds like I'm focusing on changing for her. I am really trying to internalize that these are changes I definitely need to make for myself, whether it is in this R or the next. Any thoughts?
Hi Squiggy, I think you are doing great. With your W having moved out in the past week, lesser men might have crumbled. But you seem to be doing really well. Great job also on keeping your focus on s5 right now. He needs you now more than ever.
When my W moved out, she gave much less attention to our children. So don't be surprised if this happens with your W and son. Your W's focus might be more on herself right now.
Hi Squiggy
I also think you are doing very well in difficult circumstances. I'm interested in the last 2 lines you posted. The changes you are making so far are in response to your W's complaints. What changes would you like to make for yourself and your future life?
Thanks Wet. That boy is definitely in the forefront of my mind right now. He's so smart to start making the connections that he has, and I need to do my best to protect him.
Toots, how ironic that you ask this question right when I was talking with a good friend about this very thing earlier. This is where I am trying to fully realize the DB approach. Ultimately, I do, at this time, want to save my marriage. This woman is my life. My family is my life. At the same time, regardless of the outcomes of my marriage, I need to make these changes to be happy with myself again. I am not proud of what I let myself become.
My wife brought up many complaints that, after spending some time in serious reflection, I want to change within myself. Call it the catalyst to my own change. I need to go back to loving myself the way I used to. I remember back before I met my wife how I was happy, confident, on top of managing everything, and relaxed. I didn't let many things phase me, and I was working towards improving myself even then. I showed compassion and caring towards others. I helped those in need. I was a shoulder to cry on, an ear to complain into, and a pillar to stand on when the going got rough. My friends and family always made note of these things.
I've felt that I've allowed myself to stray from that, and I am desperately trying to claw my way back into it. It is what attracted my wife into pursuing me in the first place. The friend I mentioned earlier looked at me and told me that I am 100% better than I was three weeks ago. I ran an amazing supervision with my staff today and was complimented on it. That felt great to hear.
So quick update. Dirty rice last night was amazing (as well as the scoop of cookie dough!). Put together S5's train table again like I promised him last week. Did some laundry, dishes, straightened up, went through mail, and got some general cleaning done. Best friends came over for guy's night and we had a blast.
Today, W is dropping off S5 to me, and I'm so excited to see the little guy!
Now...I need to remember to be like water. Calm, cool, confident, and non-reactive. Validate, listen, do not confront. No expectations and stay out of my own head. Show the changes through my actions.
So picked up son about 2 hours ago after being nice and driving 20 minutes farther north than the original plan. I was a good father and friend by picking up a birthday card from S5 to mommy and a very neutral but sincere one from me. Also got her a nice looking bouquet of flowers from both of us as I promised S5 last weekend. I really felt like the improved me was fully on and acted "as if" everything was good, and it worked! On the drive, S5 was sad. I consoled him and told him everything is going to be ok. He told me some things, such as him not liking the guy friend being around and giving "mommy a kiss on the forehead", and then he also said that mommy is not a part of our family, since she left our home. That was fun to deal with...
We're not home but 30 minutes and then I get this series of texts.
W: How's S5?
M: Doing great.
W: I miss him already. It's so quiet here. Thank you very much for the flowers and cards. It was a pretty uneventful bday.
M: I understand. I missed him very much this week. I promised him I would get them for you.
W: It means a lot. Tell him I love him.
M: I will.
I should have validated more, and yet I don't think I did so badly.
You did good Squiggy.. I think you did all the validating you could in the circumstances..
Keep it up and stay strong!!..
Thanks LoveMyW.
Specific request for help from anyone that has experienced this. No less than 3 times today since I picked him up S5 has mentioned that he does not like the guy over at W's apartment and the fact that he kissed her on the forehead. Now, I'm not dwelling on that part. I've let go of that issue and will let it resolve itself, whatever the outcome may be. My specific concern is how to help S5 through this. I validated the heck out of him and told him that it is ok to not be happy with it, but he should love mommy anyway. He also added to what he said Monday by stating that mommy has left our family.
What others pieces of advice does anyone have to help him through this?
Hi Squiggy, sounds like you're doing well - making the birthday stuff mainly about S - but being helpful and organising it in the background - but nothing OTT or pressurising - well done.
I feel for your S. I don't have kids myself, but met H a year after he and his XW had S and SS was just 3. Slowly, slowly would be my mantra with new OPs and kids. IMO, it's far too soon for your W to be introducing S to OM. But I'm sure others will chime in with advice on this one. Whether it would be helpful to try and set a boundary on this....I'm not sure....
Thanks Toots. I really feel for him. He is having a hard time with the switching around right now, but it's also just the first weekend, and I realize that. He's sleeping soundly next to me right now. One positive about yesterday is that his words and actions really helped me with detaching more.
Sorry your having a tough time and even tougher for your S. At the end of the day he's alseep next to you. What else could you need right this minute. Take care. Rd
Well said rd. Tickling him seemed to work to pop his bad moods. Working with him on just telling me what he wants instead of throwing a tantrum.
Ending up being a tough day after all. S5 tells me in the car that he wants me to call every day he is at the apartment. I tell him I will and that I tried this week. He told me that mommy didn't let him talk and told him not to tell daddy that "OM" kissed her on the forehead.
I'm trying to let this go. Trying being the key word here. What I want to do is confront. However, that is the old me. I have a strong feeling he will continue to tell me everything going on. Half of me is grateful. The other half doesn't want to hear it.
Patience.
Fun roller coaster ride. Just spent an hour angry at the situation and then had my first full on cry in three weeks. Had to go to the garage so S5 wouldn't see. He kept calling out for mommy, and I had to explain to him that mommy isn't here, and she won't be at daddy's house. Heartbreaking.
I honestly have no idea how we can work on this with 150 miles between us. I am doing my best to improve my R with S5 and myself. Never lost my temper this weekend at any point when he threw a tantrum. I guess I can feel proud about that.
This whole sitch just feels hopeless.
After doing some more thinking, I want to clarify the hopelessness I felt earlier. I don't feel hopeless about my changes. I don't feel hopeless about the changes in the R with my S5. I only feel that way in regards to WAW, and it mostly stems from the high potential of at least an EA.
Hi Squiggy
I think most of us have felt pretty hopeless from time to time. When you create some distance between you and your S - maybe by separating, or not calling, texting etc - it feels like you are so far apart and the distance is insurmountable. Like you, I'm now a distance away from my H.
But remember, the distance (physical and emotional) may mean that loss is felt, and give space and freedom to turn back to the R. It may not of course, and if you work towards a point where you are happy anyway, you will move forwards with joy in your heart.
The big thing for now is to trust the process and focus on yourself and your S.
What should I do about her texting all the time asking about S5 and saying she misses him? Part of me wants to let her feel the choice she has made and realize what all this truly entails.
Hi Squiggy. Well I think the general advice would be to not respond to some of the texts - and/or delay responses - unless they are important.
Can't recall what contact you have agreed between her and S while he is at yours, but if you agreed an evening call, say? Then, if she texts at 2pm, saying what's happening - I miss him, you can just reply - all fine - we'll call later.
And if she texts again in a similar vein, you can ignore that. Then in the call later (if she asks why didn't you respond) you can say - we were busy/out etc.
If her contact becomes really intrusive, you may need to think about setting a boundary on it.
Thanks Toots. The agreement she put in place was that we could call any time we wanted to talk to S5. I was ok with this. However, when I tried calling this past week, he was conveniently in bed or throwing a fit or busy. I agreed to have her call me back, which she never did. On her bday I just left it alone so she could enjoy the day without thoughts of the R, not that I necessarily think she is even pondering it. I've told him that he can tell W to call me so he can talk, at his request. I'm going to encourage him again to do so before I leave him today.
The weekends she hasn't been here, every time he gets on the phone with her, he starts to throw a tantrum. It disrupts the fun we were having for at least an hour in which I need to calm him down.
I also have the same questions I see a lot on these boards, and I'm trying to apply them to my sitch. How do I show these changes within myself when she is living 150 miles away? Little things that I've changed and will be visible is getting S5 to let me wash him and cut his hair. Outside of that, how do I show them? She's practically NC except for talk about him.
Ok, I'm also struggling with whether or not I need to go dim, validate, ask about how the apartment is, etc. I realize this is probably a patience thing that I need to work on. Let me give an example. S5 is still with me, even though he was supposed to go back Sunday. They had blizzard conditions where W lives. I haven't responded to everything she's sent over, but I'm trying to keep some going.
W: I assume you are at (the PT job) tonight?
M: Yes, what's up? In between sessions.
W: Just curious about when I am supposed to get him
M: I was under the impression that you were going to come down to get him from mom's. What would you like to do instead?
W: I guess I'll just get him tomorrow then. I'm not driving all the way to indy again.
W: I work tomorrow unless they close again so it would have to be in the evening I guess.
M: I"m trying to work with you on this. (was typing this as she was typing the last ones). The only other option is if I picked him up and meet you in Lafayette after PT job.
W: I just told you I would get him tomorrow. I don't know how the roads are. Everything was closed up here
M: Tomorrow is fine for me. I have a session until 6, which would be about when you are finishing work
W: Okay. That is fine.
M: Ok, I'll message you when we are on the way.
W: Ok.
Client arrives at this point, and I needed to put the phone down.
I kind of want to tell her I saw later on that there was a lag in the text that gave her the impression I wasn't listening. I knew the client was coming and needed to hurry. Would that be too much? Do I just let it be?
As I said earlier in this post, I recognize that I need to work on patience. It is very hard to do so when the one area I am struggling with it is with her. I reread the WAW article. Chances are she does not care what I am thinking right now. At the same time, I occasionally remember her future talk and use of "us". Guess I'm just struggling today with trying to figure out my game plan for the R. I am happy with the changes I am making within myself and want to share them so badly, even though I doubt she will believe them. I plan on making another post about goals very soon.
This just happened...Maybe it's a sign, but I'm not trying to read into it.
I just read yesterday, I think, a post about the movie Fireproof and the companion book. Literally just got a message from a friend who is helping me cope with the sitch that there is this great movie called Fireproof and a book with it and telling me I need to watch it...
Don't read into it. Just remember it's a movie and you shouldn't pursue as much as the guy in the film did. His way to GAL was to focus on Jesus which is a good thing.
Exactly. The friend was talking about the point of how the character in the movie really focused on improving himself to be a better husband. I'm not looking at it as a sign that we will R. More so as steering the course of my self-improvement.
Just be sure you don't do the things in the Love Dare book. That's all pursuit.
Thanks MrBond. I will definitely keep that in mind. It doesn't fully apply to my sitch anyway, since she lives a couple hours away.
Why must I torture myself with allowing her to video call S5? Every time she calls, he throws a tantrum. He is being reactive to the situation. Even though all day he has told me I'm the best daddy and he loves me and wouldn't stop being by me, he was angry at her not meeting up with me and said he hates this house. She smiled at that and looked to the side, like someone was there, which I am not doubting at this point. I know I need to detach more, but right now I'm just angry and frustrated. This was all after this series of text messages:
W: Do you have S5 yet? I really need to talk to him. I'm struggling really bad without him.
M: Just got him. Really sorry you are missing him so badly. He had a great day.
W: I'm really struggling without him.
M: I know you are. I really do.
W: This whole thing is really hard. I'm nervous about the new job thing too.
M: It really is. New jobs are scary, but you are an amazing therapist.
W: Thanks. Just really concerned about the hours. It's non-profit though so it shouldn't be as strict. Can I video chat with him?
M: They sounded like great people. Need to wait until we are home. Dark in here.
W: Ok. Message me when you get there please.
M: I will when I get him settled in.
Got home. He was mad that it wasn't mommy's house. Tried explaining to him that mommy said the snow was so bad she couldn't leave. Calmed him down. Loved on him. Made the video call. She went from the living room to the bedroom, which shouldn't have made a difference (see above). He wouldn't talk to her, was angry, sad, hid from her. She said she was crying earlier because she missed him. She didn't look good at all. He said two things about being mad at me and then the hating this house part. Both times she looked to the side of the phone and had a smirk. I told her I can let her go if she's busy, he needs to go to sleep anyway. She got defensive. That was a little backslide.
Earlier in the day when she tried to call him at my mother's house (aunt was watching him), he didn't want to talk to her at all and hid. I feel so bad for him.
I'm reading the WAW post by MWD again. I really need to remind myself this is part of the script - justify the action by his behaviors. The sad part is that he has been an angel all weekend, and that is what she needs to see. Instead, she sees that he is mad at the situation and thinks it's my fault. Consequently, another negative experience on the chalkboard for her.
Here are some things I've realized.
1. She has been planning this for quite a while. Probably since the beginning of December at least.
2. All her thoughts are on herself and maybe S5 and maybe an OM, not me.
3. Although she is trying to protect him, at least in her mind, she is causing him harm.
4. S5 feels that I am safe and secure, which is part of the reason he takes it out on me (I don't get angry with him anymore).
5. I like this new me that I am becoming. It feels great, and I am not going to let anything stop this train.
6. I truly have been given the gift of working on myself and my R with S5. Regardless of what happens, he and I are in a much better place and will continue to improve.
7. I need patience. Lots of patience.
8. I recognize resentment building within me. I need to let it go.
9. I need to ignore whatever is going on in their video conversations. It's not worth it, and I just feel bad after.
10. Her roller coaster is about her. Not me, and I don't want to ride the thing into oblivion.
Thoughts?
Fireproof touched me on a deeper level than I thought possible. I cried and thanked God for putting the sequence of events leading up to me watching it last night and surrendered myself and my marriage to Him. I have never felt so much peace. A lot of Caleb's personal issues reflected my own struggles. I am in the process of doing more serious self-reflection and truly owning what I need to change. It's like a light has been switched on.
I feel confident in my interactions with W today. She started her first day at the new one this morning. I sent her a text, which will follow, with no expectations and put my phone down. It surprised me that I got as much of a response. I am not reading into it either and accept it for what it is.
M: Good luck today. You're going to do great.
W: Thank you. I've been here for an hour and the director just got here and was surprised I was already here lol.
W: She was like, wow you are here bright and early.
W: I already have 6 referrals I have to call today, a little overwhelming.
M: Sounds like you're off to one hell of a good start. You've got this
An hour later:
W: How's S5 today?
M: He's in a great mood. Lots of hugs and love this morning.
W: Great to hear. Can't wait to see him today.
M: He is looking forward to seeing you as well.
W: Are you still home with him right now?
Later:
W: Do you want to file jointly or separately for taxes? I would like to get them done by this weekend if possible.
I was busy and waited...
M: I'm at work. I believe we have to file jointly.
Almost immediately..
W: I'm freaking out. I'm so overwhelmed.
M: The door is always open if you need help. You are brave and strong, never forget that.
W: I'm just really struggling with all this change. And I know I've brought it all on myself but I'm feeling so alone and helpless
I didn't respond yet at this point, was busy at work. An hour later...
W: What time will you be in Lafayette?
W: Thought we could all have dinner together.
25 minutes later
M: That would be nice. I'll be done at 6 and then need some time to get him.
W: Okay. We can find a place to eat there. I really don't want McDonald's or Burger King, if we can help it (throwback to financial problems we used to have)
M: I'll pull up a map and take a look at what is around there (180 against indecisiveness)
W: Okay thank you
I sooooo want to mind read what is going on today. But as I said earlier, I surrender the outcome of this marriage to God. I plan to be the great father I am becoming and the great friend I am (thank you Jefe's thread for the examples).
Any other thoughts on this? I want this to be a positive experience, regardless of the outcome. I do admit it would be nice if it moved us closer together.
I was afraid of that. You're becoming too much of her "friend". You can't keep offering your help and be the "nice guy". Would you sound just as chipper if she had another guy and started sharing with you what she does with him?
So how do I find that balance between being a friend and still showing that I want to save this marriage? The help I offered was an ear that will listen to her. Her LLs are Words of Affirmation and Acts of Service, and before BD I didn't do well in speaking her LLs. I also don't want to give the impression that I am going out of my way to contact her. As I said in a previous post, it's been mostly NC with us except for regarding S5.
I want the "road to be paved and smooth", but I'm also not ready to jump back in. Hit me with that 2x4.
You're her H, not her friend. She knows you want to save the marriage. There needs to be some kind of boundaries that you put in place for yourself. What were other issues that you needed to work on?
Great question. I posted this earlier in the thread:
1. Not being involved enough with S5 - I am so completely dedicated to him right now it's not even funny. When he is with me, I am spending every waking minute playing and interacting with him. I've stepped up bath time, tooth brushing, playing, general caretaking, and lovingly establishing rules/boundaries instead of being too harsh.
2. Working more around the house - I've started projects around the house to repair/improve areas I have let go for too long. The house is about 80% cleaned from top to bottom (3 floors is a *****).
3. Being more independent - I have moved forward in opening a new bank account, getting direct deposits switched to the new account, getting bills in order and accounts switched to me, and I am back to cooking/cleaning for myself successfully.
4. Criticism - I feel like I am doing much better. It seems like she is still expecting it from me in her reactions to me. I try to validate as much as possible by reflecting her feelings and thoughts. I need to figure out a way to get better at this.
5. Taking her for granted - Part of this is me being more independent. I thanked her for taking out the trash on Monday, when that is normally something I do. Another part is stepping up in taking care of S5. I even told her to keep him on her birthday this week, because I know it is important to her. Out of all of these, this is the one I am having the hardest time with. She is now living 2.5 hours away, and my time with her is limited. Granted, it's only the first week, but I'm guessing it will stay this way for a while. So, I'm trying to work through her #1 priority, S5, and giving him the best relationship with his father as possible.
These are the primary issues she has raised. I've also added on that I need to improve my anger, impatience, and putting my family first before all else. Anger and impatience are doing so much better since I've started letting go of things and not responding immediately. Putting my son first has been what I've been able to do the most since the move. Otherwise, allowing her the space to breathe and work on herself is the other major part.
And what about physically? Has she ever had issues with you before about your appearance? It's ok for her to SEE your changes as well as experience them. Have you done anything new since she left? How were you two when you first got married? What attracted her to you?
She hasn't had any problems with my appearance. As a matter of fact, I weight about 45 lbs less than the day we met. She gained about 70 lbs over the course of the 10 years due to med change, pregnancy, grad school, etc. However, she is rapidly approaching a point where she is in better shape than when I met her. However, I have always thought she is beautiful. Her smile melts my heart. As soon as I have the finances straight, I'm going to start slowly buying new clothes that fit and look better. I've got 2 goal shirts and 1 goal pair of jeans that are about to be looking good on me. I'm trying to find the time to go to the gym, but I have pulled out the exercise bike (I love riding and am waiting for spring to get out my mtn bike...) and started using it. Also started doing more housework to burn more calories and make it look good. I am working on changing my diet to a more vegetable and meat based with lower carbs (mix between Primal Blueprint and Paleo).
I believe what attracted her to me was the way I was confident and cared for very difficult children (worked as a direct care staff at a residential facility). I was selfless in my caring for others. I made her feel special.
Well I am going to jump straight in and ask about your sex life in the M.
The things you have listed as her complaints are not coming off as the main issue, to me. Unless I missed the severity of it. I mean, were any of these bad enough to break up a M?
For example, your R with your child. I find it a little difficult to think a woman would give up half her child's time to be with a father she did not approve of in the first place. If you were mean or abusive, yes I could understand her wanting to leave......but then she would have to entrust her child to you, without her being around. So, that would not make much sense as to a solution.
Most working W's think their H's don't do enough to help with housework. I have never known of one case, however, where that was the basis of a S/D. Perhaps you have, in some of the couples you counsel.
Taking her for granted, as in the example you gave........I think happens in most families to a degree. Again, unless there is more to the story, I just don't see this being the true reason behind her leaving.
Now criticism can become hard to live with on a daily basis. It can affect her self-esteem and perhaps feel like mental abuse. It could certainly cause her to be vulnerable to another man who made her feel "special".
Only you know the degree in these issues that existed. Unless you have glossed over it, I am thinking she left you for the other guy. That is why I asked about the sex in your M. For some women, it may make no difference, but for most.....it usually shows up in the lack of desire to ML with their H. Somewhere along the way, she lost her desire to be with you. Can you shed some light on it?
Hi sandi. My new thread is at
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534140&page=7I'm going to respond in that thread, since the A/OM has now come out.