Happy Holidays everyone.
First, I just want to extend a sincere thank you to everyone on this board. Over the last 30 days, your comments, advice and thoughts have played a major role in me being able to function every day. I read this site all day…at work, before bed, constantly. I can't imagine what I would've done without it. Thank you. Especially to HP and eleven…your stories have really inspired me and I want you to know how your strength and courage has affected the lives of not only myself, but as a result, my children as well.
I'm here, as everyone is, for support. I'm not here to bash my wife or tell you everything she's doing "wrong." She's the mother of my children (S4, S1) and I will never bad mouth her to anyone, despite everything that has and continues to happen. She is the love of my life and this has been the most painful month I've ever experienced. Most days, the pain doesn't even feel real.
Thirty one days ago, I was a happily married man. Today? I'm waiting to be served as she has already put a lawyer on retainer and has started the filing process.
There is an OM involved, although he is being played down significantly. They've been in contact for a year and she's admitted to kissing him. I don't want to let my brain go to a dark place, but between the new clothes, the new makeup and coming home at 1AM several times over the last month, it's hard to imagine that things aren't further along than she's admitting.
When the bomb was dropped (one day before my birthday and two weeks after I was laid off) I was given a "choice." My W wanted a separation, not a D. The terms were that after our boys were in bed, I would leave the house three nights a week and she would leave the house three nights a week. She would go pursue this OM (or just be alone) and encouraged me to do the same. I'll spare everyone the details of the bomb drop, what she said isn't important. Her words were very similar to what I've read here (I've known for 12 years you weren't the right guy for me….Not in love with you….the right guy is out there….etc)
As I have zero intention on pursuing anyone other than my wife, I was unable to agree to her terms and since then, she's started the D process. This has all happened within 30 days.
At this point, her rings are off, she's been moved out of the bedroom for 2 weeks and we barely speak. My heart is completely obliterated. I read DB and DR in about two days and have spent the last month on the LRT. It's hard when we still live together and have two young boys who are my entire world.
I know that I have to let her go. It's the worst decision I've ever had to accept in my life. Just brutal. It's gut wrenching to watch her come home at 1 or 2 in the morning, take a long shower in our room then head down to the couch for the night.
I love her more than she has ever known. She told me I'm about 85% of what she wants and needs in a husband. My reply was that I deserve to be 100% to somebody, she agreed.
I can't believe that I'm writing this. Even as I type this it seems completely insane to me.
At the end of the day, my children are my life. I've waited my entire life to be a father and husband and they are my two proudest and happiest roles. At some point, I'll GAL, but until then, I'll try my hardest to lovingly detach. (that phrase is so odd to me)
By no means am I free of responsibility in this situation. However, I don't think that anything has occurred over our R that is outside of the scope of normal married couple crap…I guess she didn't feel the same.
I told my wife that despite being completely against her decision, that I had to admit to myself that I do in fact love her unconditionally…and I have to let her go. I told her that I truly hope she finds what she is looking for, if she already hasn't. As much as it pains me to admit this, I hope she finds the love out there that I so desperately wanted (want) her to take from me.
Happy holidays everyone and from the bottom of my broken heart, thank you very much for being here.
Best,
movingAhead
I am so sorry to read your post. I feel for you especially since I (and many others) are right there with you. This blows.
You will get messages of support that include.
1. Breathe
2. Detach lovingly
3. You will feel better slowly, day by day. Trust me on this one
4. GAL - get a life, do things outside of your comfort zone such as walking, running, making new friends, doing play dates with your kids friends and parents,etc.... Anything that gets you moving. Anxiety and depression love to be still, the more you move, the less you feel their presence.
5. Remember this is very new situation, you will be told to believe only 50% of what she says and does.
Hang tough friend, post often, it helps and you will make a lot of friends on the board.
Obviously she is having sex with him...
Have you seen an attorney yet? If not, CALL ONE ASAP! You must protect yourself. Do not move out, don't do anything she suggests until you meet with an attorney. How are you protecting your assets and finances?? It's time to think about cancelling credit cards, moving money around, etc.
What are the D laws in your state?
This is not a game. Your marriage is no longer okay. You NEED to talk with an attorney. She is probably being brainwashed by OM and her attorney is going to suggest things to her that are VERY BAD for you. You know OM isn't on your side either.
Please act quickly on this.
You probably feel like meeting with an attorney is "the end." It's not. I was reluctant to go to one too, but felt very good after doing so. Knowledge is power...
Hang in there.
You are in the right place mvg. This forum has been an absolute godsend to me. I feel like I picked up a new herd of virtual friends who have kept me from making some stupid mistakes.
I would also suggest a few sessions with a DB coach. Pricey, but worth it.
Your sitch carries a lot of similarities to mine. I got BD on my birthday when W admitted her feelings for OM. He doesn't live anywhere near here, so their chances to be together physically have been minimal. She does admit to one makeout session but that's it. I don't believe her but I have no way to prove otherwise.
My W told me last night that we have everything for a good marriage except for sexual attraction (on her side). What WAW don't understand is that as long as they're in that limerence phase with OM, they're largely blocked off to us sexually. It's almost chemically impossible for them to feel attraction for us. Addiction is a word that's used a lot in this forum and it's very appropriate.
Read Sandi's 37 rules. Believe nothing of what they say. They are looking for any reason to justify their behavior, no matter how nonsensical. These thing don't happen in a vacuum. There are usually legitimate preexisting issues in a relationship before one spouse decides to pursue someone else. Validate and take responsibility when their complaints are valid, but don't put up with BS when they're goofy. And you'll likely hear some goofy ones.
And I second the recommendation to see an attorney. Most will do an initial consultation with you for free or very little. I picked the best divorce attorney in my area; that also served to prevent my W from retaining him if D becomes imminent. I felt 10x better after talking to him. It's a way of taking control of a situation over which you have very little influence right now.
Prayers to you. I'll continue to follow your thread.
Odd how excited I was to see replies to my post...on a divorce forum...on Christmas Eve
Yes, I've met with two attorneys at this point. My father is actually an attorney and has put me in touch with some great people. I live in a no fault state so no point in filing on grounds of adultery. As I said, punishing my wife would be reacting from a broken heart, doesn't serve me.
The OM in my sitch is a family friend. His wife left him for her boss about three months ago. The OM was at S1 bday party just 60 days ago. His family and my in-laws have been very close for 30 years... My stbxw took me and S1/4 to his apartment to play with his two girls just one week before BD...His parents were at my wedding...
In therapy with stbxw I owned up to any and all issues, wanted to walk through the fire together to fix them, she just doesn't want to.
I tried bringing up boundaries for the first time today bc of the holidays... Didn't go well. Told me I don't get to ask her questions anymore, she can and is going to do whatever she wants.
Just came back from a quick run to a list of mediators and our wedding pics taken down in the bedroom... Merry Christmas, haha
MVG
Well .. as most this place here while has been a Godsend .. its not a place you want to see new members if you know what I mean... but we all are here because we have had our bell rung and looking for help.
Good news .. you found this place fast, thats huge .. took me what .. 7-8 months after BD and let me tell you .. I am in a 180 of where I was .. key term I .. not my R .. me .. I found a place where I am at peace and thats all I can control ... if you learn anything from your stay here ... control you, thats all you can possibly do at this moment.
Holidays are going to be rough .. like you my BD was about the same time last year .. I get where you are, bell rung, in denial .. this must be a bad dream ... all that. Do what you can to enjoy the holidays.
First things first ... its time you let her do her selfish thing .. her choice not yours .. this is your chance to focus on yourself and the R with your kids. THATS all that matters at this point. Like Rzr said .. read/follow the 37 and then start working on the Trifecta .. GAL/PMA/180 ... do these things for YOU not to win her back .. she is gone at the moment, let her go and explore as you become a better father and man.
Thanks everyone for the feedback, as you all know it's greatly appreciated. With regards to her being gone for the "moment", despite reading everyone's stories, I don't think for a second she's ever coming back... Knowing that is making this easier in a way. It helps knowing that I'm focusing on my boys and myself for the right reasons.
My parents divorced when I was three, it was ugly for 30 years. I want no part of a messy D, but since she has a lawyer on retainer and they've already started the process, I want this over fast. I am having a hard time with the OM and am confident that with the physical distance a D brings, I'll at least be on the right path to healing.
Look, I don't want any of this. However, once a judge orders a death sentence, nobody wants to live with their executioner... If that makes any sense...
My stbxw started moving on months, maybe years ago, I want to get started too. I'm not talking about dating, just getting used to my new life with my boys.
How was your Christmas mvg?
Thanks for checking in, I appreciate it. I think I'm still on moderation, so if my replies seem a bit out of order, I think that's why.
Christmas so far has been a nightmare, "Caught" my wife on the phone with OM out in our car at 1am on Christmas morning. I know, can't change it, but holy crap it hurts to watch. We had two huge family parties, traditions since before I was born and always my favorite night of the year. This year, well obviously they were rough to say the least. Nobody aside from our parents know anything yet, so had to put a game face on not only for the boys but for 100+ family members. Ugh...
My wife has her big annual friend Christmas party tomorrow night and she's going alone. I'm dreading this. She is so beautiful and always gets done up for these. I know that sounds a bit superficial but I'm still very much in love with her and it's very hard to watch. She seems so happy right now.
I'm having a great time watching my boys play together and with their gifts from Santa. Time to go make them a huge breakfast, wife is still asleep so I can get some good time in with them.
As far as GAL and PMA, I made a list last night (went to bed alone on Christmas for the first time in 12 years) of everything to look forward to in 2015. Made me feel better for a while so I'll keep looking at it
MVG.
I am sorry to hear about your situation, believe me, we are going through this as well. Confusion, pain.
Just to echo, GAL and 180. Pleading, threatening, won't do a thing.
The sadness is starting to morph into anger. I have no idea how some of you have done this for song, but I guess I'm at the "normal" stage in this process? When I look at my boys, I get so upset. Angry that their lives are going to change. Angry that one persons selfishness will affect these amazing and innocent kids, it breaks my heart.
Living in the same house is driving me mad. I'm not sure how to detach but know that I need to. Having a front row seat to her affair is awful.
A few things that I'm finding extremely difficult...
1) the speed of all of this. D mediators and lawyers already involved after 34 or so days.
2) My wife has yet to shed a single tear in front of me
3) she has placed 100% of the blame on me along with our "incompatibility"
4) not a single one of our mutual friends or my in-laws have called me
5) her communication with OM is constant and in front of me
6) she is showing zero remorse
I told her on BD that despite not wanting this, that I will not stand in her way. What more should / could I be doing to get through this easier? Maybe nothing. Maybe it's just time that's needed..
So hard to pull away from someone you love so much. Ugh...
MVG, so sorry to find you on this forum, but glad you're hear. Like so many before me have said, it is a great place to get advice and just keep your sanity. Not a vet, but just my 2cents.
1) the speed of all of this. D mediators and lawyers already involved after 34 or so days.
Unfortunately, there isn't anything you can do about this then what you are already doing. It's not advised that you stand in her way in this matter because most vets will tell you that it does the opposite of what you want. In my sitch, when my W was screaming bloody murder in the first 2 weeks, I actually caught her in a "calmer mood" and asked her if she would just do me a favor and hold off on D. She agreed and we are in a much better position now. Not telling you that you should do this, but it worked for me. You just have to realize that when everything happens in the beginning, W's are all about D and just getting out of the M. They are not thinking rationally in any way.
2) My wife has yet to shed a single tear in front of me
She won't. Not yet at least. Took my W 3 months to begin feeling remorse and to cry in front of me. Some people's W's take even longer, much longer, if at all. You just have to realize that just because she doesn't show you, doesn't mean she's not hurting as well. Remember that. She will NOT cry or show remorse right now. It is WAYYYYY too soon for that
3) she has placed 100% of the blame on me along with our "incompatibility"
Obviously you guys were compatible at some point, you know this, she knows this. You've been together for 12 years if I'm not mistaken? "Don't believe anything she says, and less than 50% of what she does......"
4) not a single one of our mutual friends or my in-laws have called me
Ok this is something I can definitely identify with you. But honestly, the only thing I can say is suck it up. My in-laws are of ZERO help. They are not even helping my W right now, and are not offering any kind of support, guidance, money, nothing. The only person that is helping my W, or at least being "there for her" is me. I don't know if this is the right call, but I have seen many success stories where LBH's showed unconditional love for their W's, and were just a friend, while continuing to GAL and focus on 180s. If you're in-laws are not helping or calling you (mine haven't either), then theres nothing you can do about it. I tried reaching out to them before, not good, and it doesnt do anything but make you look needy. You just have to live with this one.
5) her communication with OM is constant and in front of me
A vet may have better answers but the word boundaries comes to mind.
6) she is showing zero remorse
she won't. Not yet, not until you give it more time, and you focus on your 180s, and you GAL. My W didn't show remorse until now, 3 months into it, after I have already moved to a different state. It was that day that she broke down and started seriously questioning things. You're only 34? days into this. You haven't even had enough time to figure things out. You're W will take much longer
Keep your head up MVG...keep posting. Even if she goes through with the D, its not the end of the world, many people have gotten back together after D. But you have to give her/show her something shed want to come back to. What are your 180s? What did YOU do wrong in the M that made her leave? I know you mentioned that none of the things you can think of, in your opinion, were D worthy, but obviously small things add up for your W.
Just my thoughts.
Setting boundaries just failed....terribly.
I was sitting upstairs and could hear wife taking crap on me to her best friend. No big deal, suck it up. However when she called the OM to talk more crap, I had to say something. I told her (while she was still on the phone, didn't even hang up) that if she wanted to have a relationship with him that she needed to leave. I told her to get out about 10 times and she wouldn't. Said she can and will do whatever she wants. So, I foolishly did the same. I said I'd just sit downstairs and work on my computer if that meant not having to hear their conversation about me.
Well...I stated recording our conversation bc I'm concerned about false DV (something she's threatened before) she called her parents who live five minutes away and they came right over bc W felt "unsafe" I'm 160 lbs soaking wet holding a brick...intimidating isn't a word you'd use to describe me...
I called my dad to ask some advice and always being the attorney, drove over as well. They all just left.
I'm humiliated. How did 12 years of happiness go this south in 30 days? This has to stop, I don't have the stamina for it. I'm trying LRT, GAL, everything I can think of. It just seems there is a need to punish ME for the OM. Is this common with WAW?
I told her on day 1, I won't stand in her way of a D...seems that's not enough.
Hi mvg,
Seems like our WAW need to punish us and flaunt the OM in our faces. This is on purpose, at least is my assessment.
Look, we know what 180 and GAL and LRT are telling us what to do. What is it they say? A marathon vs sprint?
Perhaps you could share with us what is on your GAL list. As a father of 2 young boys I can relate to everything that you have said.
Hello I can share that the calmer and more at peace you can be
about the OM will help you immensely. If their is anyway you
can mustard up some realization that this is her decision right
now to be with someone else. As hard as this is respect the
fact that she is giving this guy your spot. Its something like
unconditional respect of her choice. Then distress however you
know best and set boundaries in a calm effective way. Something
like I respect your decision as of now to be in this OM face
but if you can please keep your business with him away from you
and don't forget to say that you will do the same. Respect goes
both ways.
Thank you for replying. I definitely understand that this is her decision which is why I am not going to stand in her way of the D. However, nobody should have to sit in their own house and hear their spouse trash then to OM/OW, it's abusive.
We went to a therapy session a few day after BD and she talked about setting boundaries. After all that has happened, I thought this boundary was the least I could get.
What is everyone's thoughts on exposure to OM wife / family? I have the email to her already written but am not sure what to do.
My W continues to deny that this is an A. She gets very angry when I refer to it as such and says beyond a kiss, nothing has happened. She also refuses to admit that she's D me to be with anothe man, although will admit they will begin dating "in the open" as soon as we are divorced.
So many thoughts iny head right now...
MVG,
Your wife is doing what she is doing because:
A) she has free will; and
B) thus far there have been zero consequences for her destructive behavior.
What boundaries have you laid and successfully enforced? In what ways have you shown to her that she may have screwed up/went too far, and might be losing you? What marital benefits (financial, emotional, etc) has she lost so far?
You said you worried about the recent anger you're feeling. Not only is it natural, but from my viewpoint it's the HEALTHIEST feeling I've read on your thread so far. Most of what you write smacks not of healthy love, but of CO-DEPENDENCY (and I say this as a classic co-dependent/pleaser/"Nice Guy" myself). After thoroughly reading Divorce Remedy (and I would suggest going immediately to the After-the-Last-Resort Technique) I would suggest the books "Co-Dependent No More," "Boundaries" by Townsend & Townsend, and "No More Mr. Nice Guy."
Right now you are sending a strong desperation vibe to your wife, a "I love you SO much, and I'm willing to do ANYTHING to keep you!" I can guarantee you that this is having the opposite effect of what you want, and it's actually PUSHING HER AWAY and turning her off.
Starsky
Starsky,
Thank you very much for replying.
I'm not sure if my post above was up at the time you wrote this but I've been unable to successfully set any boundaries so far. The only real boundary I asked for was to carry on her relationship not within ear shot of me, especially when it's mostly spew. As you can see, my boundary setting has failed.
I'm not so much worried about my anger as I am relieved. I would agree with you that I've been co-dependant and the fact that I'm not crying about this anymore is oddly comforting.
I've read both DB and DR and will go back and re-read those specific chapters this evening. I read NMMNG about two years ago and found it very helpful, although I guess not helpful enough to help me navigate the current situation.
I really appreciate you reading through my thread. The fact that you're seeing desperation isn't good bc in my head, I've already lost her and am accepting that. I've kept my mouth shut for a month, which I understand is a very short time. After being told that I'm her 'biggest mistake, that she knew this day was coming 12 years ago after our first date, that there have been 10 other guys in 12 years she wanted to be with but couldn't bc of me, etc etc....I have no interest at all in staying with a person who feels that way towards me.
In therapy, I was asked, "Why on earth do you want to be with someone who doesn't love you?" I spent the next month thinking about that every single day finally to admit to myself that I don't.
If my stbxw can't even respect the only boundary I've asked for, I guess I just have to tough it out until the D is final.
What are your thoughts on exposure of the A to OM wife? (who oddly enough just sent me a "hello" on linkedin bc she saw my new job update....
Boundary setting is about you, not the other person. You put up with what you put up with. If you don't have actions to support your boundary, and put them to use, it's on you.
When she does it, walk away. Leave the room. Leave the house.
Maybe I'm not doing this correctly and would love some advice.
When W wants to talk to OM in our house, and specifically to trash me, I should say..
"W, if you want to continue your relationship with OM in our house, you need to know that it's extremely disrespectful to me. You're a grown woman and you have free will, however just know that doing this in our shared home is unfair to me."
What I actually said...
"Is that OM on the phone? Great, then you need to get out if you want to have that phone call in our house. Seriously. Get out."
Probably not the best move, but I'm not going to leave my house at 11:30 at night with two little boys asleep upstairs. We have a small home and I can hear everything she is saying. Tonight's fix will be a pair of headphones and Homeland on my tablet
As I said to Starsky, I know she's gone and the desperation I showed for the first two weeks was definitely wrong. Her words and actions over the last month have helped me (quickly) realize that this is a bad situation for me.
I know I should be doing all of these things to be "the man a fool would leave," but right now I feel like a fool for even thinking about wanting this.
GAL activities have included seeing some friends during the week, playing music again (was in a band for 11 years, stopped when S4 was born), going to an Italian meetup group in the city, starting going to a crossift gym. That stuff feels great and I love it. Once we can get some physical space between us, I'm hoping that my PMA will improve dramatically.
I want my W to be happy, I really do. I wish I could've been with me but if not, what can I do right? At the very least our sons deserve a happy mother.
This past father's day, she wrote this about me on FB...
"See this guy? This is a guy who takes his kid on a beach adventure weekend spur of the moment bc S1 and I are 3k miles away. Who gets on FaceTime every chance he gets to see the baby and I, and so I don't go crazy missing S4 and him. Who sends me subsequent pics to keep me updated in their weekend. Who has NEVER made a home with me where I'm the only one who cooks, cleans and parents. To be fair he's a much better cook and does so more often and he's a hell of a dad. The boys and I are beyond lucky. He's rough and tumble but also shows them the power of being kind and respectful. He's always making us laugh and supports me as a whole person: wife, mom, friend. He takes an interest in my hobbies and my career and our guys see this. I know they'll grow up treating women with the same love and respect. What more could anyone ask for?"
That was less than six months ago.....
Exposure worked very well for me, but it's not DB/DR teaching. You really have to check your motives if you're going to do it: are you doing it to break the illicit mystique of the affair and to enlist the support of some you are near-100% sure will support the marriage? Or are you doing it out of spite and vindictiveness?
Didn't you say OM already left his wife?
Yes, I read your recent post before I posted to you. That's why I said "laying AND ENFORCING," and why I recommended the Townsend book. I would also recommend you read an excellent thread on this very forum by a wise old poster named Coach. I think it was called simply "Boundaries"; I'll see if I can find it and post a link to it later.
Starsky
Neither is correct. She cares not one whit about being "fair" to you in her current state.
Better: "I certainly hope that's not your boyfriend you're talking to. I won't tolerate that from our marital home, much less our bedroom. If you can't control yourself, then take it outside." Then stand there, interrupting their private conversation.
Who pays for her cell phone?
I'm not sure yet to be honest. OM wife left him around the time my W checked out of our M. I imagine at that point the OM expressed his feelings for my W or vice versa...doesn't matter.
Right now I'm hurt and I know any decisions made right now will be the wrong ones. That much I've learned from all of you here, and I'm grateful.
There are two couples involved here and I feel like I'm the only one losing. I know, boo f'n hoo. Three people have walked away from their marriages and I'm sitting here feeling like an idiot, like my entire adult life to this point has been a lie.
I will definitely get the Townsend book today.
The only reason I even legitimately thought about exposure (I had thought about it from Day 1 but out of anger and hurt) is bc OM W just sent me a message on LinkedIn.
Right now, I feel like there's a need for me to play moral/ethics police. I also realize how insane and unnecessary that is. If OM W doesn't have a clue what's going on (they ARE still married) then that's not my problem...right?
I don't see exposure helping me to restore my M, I really don't. If anything, I see it as fuel on an inferno.
My W wants out. Period.
That's exactly what I did last night Starsky. I said...
"If you are going to sit here and trash me to your boyfriend, I'm just going to sit down here and work on my computer. I'm not going to be made a fool of in my own home."
So...she called her parents and they came over and sat on the couch with her until midnight because I "wouldn't give her any privacy and was keeping her prisoner in her own home."
I have told her 1,000 times....I will NOT make this difficult on her bc the only thing that does is hurt S1/4 which is the only thing I care about.
However, there is a line between accommodating an easy D and being a doormat.
MVG
Ok ... as far as exposure ... nope do not do it .. sure you want all to know that its her fault, thats the wrong approach .. obviously if your M was good and strong there would not be an OM in the picture ... you have had a hand in this too .. own it. Exposing OM very well may just draw her closer to him, make her feel like protecting him .... at this time its to fresh I would not do it .. I know Starsky did ... I just get the vibe its a different sitch here.
Boundary ... ok .. one of the things I have said that seemed to stick was by telling W "Your affair (she will say its not .. but we all know better) is disrespectful to me, our marriage and our family and I would hope you would have enough respect for at the least one if not all of these things to not brandish it in front of me nor in our home). She has not felt any consequences for her actions and most likely feels she is entitled to do as she wishes for putting up with you for so long .... This is your chance, do you, focus on things for you and your kids .. let her walk her walk.
Mvg, it sounds like you are coming along the learning curve quickly. As you know, it would be very foolish to escalate things. Just be careful not to confront her. One theory I might put out is she is actually "baiting" you so she can create a bad situation to lean things in her cavorted. Don't take the bait. Good luck and keep posting!
Cali,
I have owned it and acknowledged it to her and our therapist that if there are any issues with me, to bring them out and let's work through them.
She won't point to any of these issues in her decision. She is bent on our "incompatibility" and "not being in love with me since our first date"
I really don't see how there can be any consequences. I can state my case 101 different ways, if she's not going to honor my boundary, there is absolutely nothing I can do.
I've done nothing but focus on my kids since they were born. There are reasons for that (S4 was born 10 weeks premature and W and I handled it in very different ways) My kids are the center of my world. I never wanted to go out with friends. I never wanted to GAL...her and the boys were (are) my life.I guess that's one of the reasons I'm here.
I am "letting" her walk. No problem. I just don't want to be kicked while I'm down.
I really don't see how there can be any consequences. I can state my case 101 different ways, if she's not going to honor my boundary, there is absolutely nothing I can do.
You can remove yourself from the situation. The bottom line is that it's disrespectful and not something you should have to witness.
You can't prevent her from talking sh*t about you. You can't stop her from talking to OM. You sure as sh*t can prevent whether or not you have to stand by a listen to it.
Walk away. Close yourself off.
I wouldn't be shocked if she stops talking about when you're not there to hear it, because she no longer gets a reaction of of you. Not one she can witness, anyway, and that's no fun.
On Christmas my ex had his new girlfriend come into the house. The old me would have lets just say very very bad things. The new me remembered that the level of disrespect cannot be seen when they can feel us spewing on them. Its best to act as if nothing moves you. The point of really letting go is not to side with their bad choices but to not allow them to affect us. What you believe in and do even though they are on crazy all morals out the window mode. You have to present that constant as surety attitude that regardless of their actions you will not be moved on your standards that why detaching is so key. Dont forget that you have to work on yourself. That when she comes down for crazy you have to be ready to be the lead in your family. BECAUSE she will come down from this and meanwhile spend time with hte kids hey teach them right from wrong. Anger is healthy but use it to motivate yourself to detach not to spew more crazy do a 180. Im saying all this to mysef as well lol.
Hi MVG - Of course there are things you can do if she doesn't honour your boundaries. Throwing your hands up and saying there's nothing you can do - that just sounds like you not wanting to do anything. Because clearly you do have choices and you can exercise them here in response to your W's boundary ignoring.
I think you just need to get to a point of clarity on what your response will be if your W continues to ignore boundaries.
And also, your comment about not wanting to be kicked when you are down. Well, if you lie there like a wounded puppy whimpering, you might be.
I know it's tough, but really think about it. This is where all the talk of 'grow some backbone' gets really important. Your W may not want to be with you right now, but you can earn (or lose) her respect by the actions you take.
There is something I can do, absolutely. I can either a) leave the house or b) just put some headphones on and watch a show or listen to some music. That's what I'm planning to do tonight. It's these first tests that are the hardest. My response will no longer be to respond. If she is talking trash to someone on the phone and I either hear it or walk through the room, I'm just going to ignore it and go about my business. Man that's hard.
I thought that by standing firm and telling her to leave the house to talk to OM that I was showing that I deserve respect. It backfired bc in the end, she still talked to him.
Faith, yea, if she brings him here or takes my boys to see him...yea...I'm sure I'm not going to have anything nice to say.
Today I'm going to speak to my laywer about the list of mediators my W sent to me.
Onward.
Cali,
I have owned it and acknowledged it to her and our therapist that if there are any issues with me, to bring them out and let's work through them.
I would approach this ^^ With validation, "I'm sorry you feel that way, I understand you are frustrated ... I feel that we could work out any issue we have" I did not see where you were in MC .... still going? How long? ... honestly ... I made the mistake of blindly going but WAW was in A with OM at the time so she was not putting in any work .. just going to say she "tried"
She won't point to any of these issues in her decision. She is bent on our "incompatibility" and "not being in love with me since our first date"
Wow ... 12 years later huh? sounds familiar... believe nothing of what she says .. 50% of what she does
I really don't see how there can be any consequences. I can state my case 101 different ways, if she's not going to honor my boundary, there is absolutely nothing I can do.
Maybe time to open up your own bank account, start taking charge of your financials .. contact a L ... get a free consultation ... be PRO-active and not RE-active.
I've done nothing but focus on my kids since they were born. There are reasons for that (S4 was born 10 weeks premature and W and I handled it in very different ways) My kids are the center of my world. I never wanted to go out with friends. I never wanted to GAL...her and the boys were (are) my life.I guess that's one of the reasons I'm here.
I was the same .. .all work and all family ... terrified to lost either. But guess what ... I am here, sure I want my M ... but you can not force the WAW into a R with you... its their choice.
Time for you to work on yourself a bit, no one wants to be with a lump who begs for scraps ... get out .. start a hobby, work out .. go out for a walk/start joggin, then run .... this will be your way for a bit ... not just physically but emotionally too. She lost her respect for you, I have a vibe you may have lost a little of yourself and its time to get that mojo back my friend.
I am "letting" her walk. No problem. I just don't want to be kicked while I'm down.
She can not hurt you if you will not allow it .... read enough around here .. for us guys , we have to silence the hurt little boy and put on the Clint Eastwood mask ... fake it till it feels like it fits naturally. Its a long hard process ... but you have to start with the work on yourself first ... as is .. WAW does not want what is behind door #1 ... its time to change that prize while no one is looking.
Cali,
Really appreciate you chatting with me today, I'm sitting here at work putting on a game face and it's so hard...thank you.
We went to MC three or four times a few years ago, didn't really get anything from it. After BD, I asked W to go back to same therapist for a session to discuss our R...not to save it, just to get everything on the table so we could have any sort of R as co-parents. In the most recent session, she told our therapist that years ago when we went, she had already checked out of the M. That's sad bc we conceived S1 about a year after. W said that was her way of "trying" to fix our "horrible M"
I can't believe that she doesn't mean or feel these things. I'm having a very hard time with this re-writing of history (as seen from her FB post)
I have a L, speaking with her on my lunch break today. W has a L as well and is moving full steam ahead with D.
Just like you, I want my M. Not only for my kids but bc I remember the person I fell in love with and I miss her.
I will never beg for scraps. I did that for the first week or so and I still feel gross from doing it. I've been 100% committed to helping her dissolve this M in a "fair" way.
So tonight, mask goes on my face, Homeland goes on my tablet, headphones go on my ears.
You all rock.
The rewriting of history is really common. So, you never loved me, but you went ahead, married me, bore my kids and we stayed together for 12 years.....really?!
It hurts, but that is just what she is saying 'right now' - and this is why the advice is to believe nothing that you hear...
The best thing you can do right now for the both of you is to let go.
And then do as Cali suggested, find you, cause you have definitely lost that somewhere along the way.Then try to figure out how to have a many faceted life. We all want more than just workerbee/parent.
Back when I was a bit younger I heard a woman say that she and her H put their marriage before the children and I was shocked. As I've matured and learned and had life happen, I've come to see how right she was.
When they're tiny and have nothing but needs they do need to be in the #1 position. They can do nothing for themselves but as they grow and change we tend to keep them in #1 position and let the marriage slide.
We all come here claiming that the marriage is so important but we really didn't treat it that way. At least that's true for most of us. We rail away at the WAS for being selfish and not caring when we often did the same, just in different way but now we think we have the moral high ground cause the WA has walked away.
You've already realized that you didn't put your marriage first which is a big step. Now what can you do to change that? What does a man who puts his marriage first look like?
What are your values as a husband and a father? Figuring that out will help you with the next step, working out the business side of the M. Doing that will give you peace of mind.
Good luck.
Hi MVG - Of course there are things you can do if she doesn't honour your boundaries. Throwing your hands up and saying there's nothing you can do - that just sounds like you not wanting to do anything. Because clearly you do have choices and you can exercise them here in response to your W's boundary ignoring.
I think you just need to get to a point of clarity on what your response will be if your W continues to ignore boundaries.
And also, your comment about not wanting to be kicked when you are down. Well, if you lie there like a wounded puppy whimpering, you might be.
I know it's tough, but really think about it. This is where all the talk of 'grow some backbone' gets really important. Your W may not want to be with you right now, but you can earn (or lose) her respect by the actions you take.
This. ^^^^. x 2.
Her reply to the 12-yr thing is that she had hoped at each major life moment, (marriage, 2 kids, house, etc) that the "I'm IN love with you" switch would've turned on. According to her, it never did. Now that we have been talking about our 'forever home' to raise S4 & S1, she claims to have had an epiphany and realized she couldn't continue this long lie any further.
My boys are only 4 and 1. Frankly, I think our marriage should've taken a temporary back seat. Not out of the car, just ride in the back for a while. S1 is still nursing for God's sake. Even with that, just two weeks or so before BD I surprised my wife with a night out in the city...got a babysitter, took her to a new restaurant...we had a blast. I wanted her to know how special she is (was) to me, that I still view her as my best friend, not just a mom. That I love her deeply. She was so happy and appreciative, said so many kind things to me. Two weeks later? She's done. I'm so confused.
If I'm being honest with myself, my wife has never been happy with me. Truly happy. There was always something else for me to do, a better job, bigger house, bigger wedding, etc. and honestly, my feelings and needs have never been considered. Yes, I have lost myself along the way. I see that.
However, I failed to meet her expectations. Regardless if I think they were excessive, unrealistic, whatever. I failed to meet them and that is why I am here. I wasn't enough (85% to use the number she gave me)
I know my values as a husband and a father. I've know them in my core and I spend every minute I am with my children instilling them. S4 is respectful, funny, has the biggest heart I've ever seen and most importantly is kind. S1...well, he just eats all day and yells "BOP!"
Just got off the phone with L...next phone call is to the mediator we decided on.
I want what is best for these boys, they deserve it. Regardless of how I feel about their mom, they will be under the impression that to me, she is a queen.
Regardless of how I feel about their mom, they will be under the impression that to me, she is a queen.
Why would you do that?
That's dishonest, and they will see through that someday.
She's a human being, not freaking royalty.
Kick out the pedestal you put her on (I had to do the same).
See her as she IS.
Your can always be respectful, never bad-mouthing her, etc., but "a queen"???
I'd re-think that.
That pedestal probably has something to do with why she wasn't happy with you...
When they are young, I want them to think she's the best thing going. It's dishonest, yes. But it would break my heart if they felt poorly about their mom. I can see her as she is, no problem. But our kids are so young, it worries me. I know that her actions will ultimately paint the picture for them, for better or worse. I never ever want my actions or words to paint her in a negative light.
This is why I wanted to expose this whole thing. I know that if I don't, I will continue to carry the weight of her choices. She is NEVER going to tell anyone that she has a OM. She will never admit to anyone that she is the one putting this in motion. She even told our therapist that she "refuses to wear a scarlet letter and that the OM has nothing to do with her decision." Therapist chuckled.
Why do I care about this? Why is important to me that people know the truth. I don't know. I shouldn't care, I get that. Detach, detach, detach.
I don't want our kids thinking that I participated in this decision. I wanted to work stuff out, she didn't. She wants D...I don't.
Time for lunch.
When they are young, I want them to think she's the best thing going.
You can do that without making her out to be a queen...
"Your Mom loves you so much! That's awesome!" etc.
Why is important to me that people know the truth.
Yeah, that human ego thingy... I still wrestle with it when I forget that the truth wants to be known, and will find a way to make itself known without my help...
I absolutely agree with TSquared2.... the truth will be known, its not going to happen quickly or on your timeline but it will be known.
If you try and force it out its only going to cause you more problems. It certainly did in my sitch
TSquared, yes, this was one of her many points she brought up on BD...that I've had her on a pedestal for 12 years and she hates it. I never viewed it that way, I oversimplified it as, well, I love you very much and want to be the best person for you, do right by you, etc etc....that backfired.
You both make good points, and I appreciate them. This board is invaluable to me right now, thank you.
The truth will come out, that's for sure. Right now, I will continue to try my best to keep my mask on...fake it until I make it. It's crazy to think that just 30 days ago I was terrified of losing my wife. Today? I'm actually a bit excited for what my new life is going to look like.
Once mediation is done, assuming we can agree, this should only take 30-60 days according to my attorney. So by summer, I'll be in a much better place.
If she tries to come back, we'll see where I am at that time but as of today, I don't even want to look at her. I know that the opposite of love is indifference and I'm trying hard to get there
Just in terms of 'outing' the A. I had a few months where PILs were very cool and curt with me. We had always been such good friends and I was so hurt by the lack of warmth in their emails.
This Xmas I got a very warm email from them. I don't think they 'knew' back in September. I think they know now. I didn't tell them and I'm glad that they found out another way. Although it did take some time...
My in-laws both know, as do her best friends. So far, everyone seems to be supporting her decision to D for OM. So there's that...
I really love her parents. They have been so great to me for 12 years. Her dad and I have been friends the whole time and have a great relationship. He cried last night in our house to me during that whole disaster and said, in front of my W, that she couldn't have picked a better H than me. Made me feel good to hear him say that.
Blood is thicker than water and I don't expect them to ever support me over her, just as my parents will do the same. They have told her she's making a huge mistake but at the end of the day, it's hers to make.
For the sake of my kids, I hope she really finds what she is looking for. They deserve to grow up with a happy mom.
I don't want our kids thinking that I participated in this decision.
they are probably too young right now, but when they are ready you can just say that you didnt want the D.
MVG,
What a horrible sh*t show you are living with.
OK. My general impressions.
1. You are doing fine. Really. You are doing a whole lot better than most of us have done in our divorce-busting activities. I allowed my ex wife to eat cake for too long.
2. Anger would be quite healthy for you right now. Your wife is breaking apart your marriage, screwing another man, and forcing your children to live in a broken homr. She's also rubbing the affair in your nose right now. It's cruel. She's a flaming turd right now. Stop being nice to her. Stop trying to guard her character to others. You don't have to bad-mouth your wife to your kids, but you don't need lie for her. You don't need to trumpet your wife's affair to the world, but when the the situation arises, you can tell the truth.
2. When your wife asked her parents to come stay with her because you are "making her a prisoner in her own home", tell them you asked her to stop talking aloud to her boyfriend in front of you, which is disrespectful and if she needs to carry on her affair on the phone, you told her she should step outside to do it.
3. She's treating you like an enemy. Protect yourself AND your children. Don't treat her like she's the love of your life. Right now she isn't. Perhaps she never was. And please stop this whole, "I just want her to be happy, even if it's not with me" crap. That's really pathetic. It's false nobility. Her happiness (or feelings of romance) do not come before her commitment to you or the well-being of your children. Frankly, I hope karma stings her in the a$$ real quickly.
4. Don't protect her from the consequences of her actions. That's not true love. If you really love her, let her fall flat on her face. Let her lose a limb (or at least a digit) in this mess. Her character and soul gain nothing from screwing you over, breaking apart her family and getting off scot free. Parents who allow their kids to do this and grow up into little monsters aren't loving, good parents. The same applied to adults. Adversity builds character. What consequences can she be made to feel now that she's declared she's no longer your wife? Time to divide the bank accounts, cancel joint credit-cards, etc. You get my point.
4. Stop thinking about ways you could have turned this around or blame yourself. It's natural to do that. It's the "bargaining" phase of grief. You sub-conciously think you can turn this around so you are going to GAL and 180 her back into the marriage. RIGHT. The whole "be the kind of man only a fool would leave" stuff is kind of unrealistic. That seldom works She already said you are 85% of what she wanted. That's pretty darn good in my book!! 85% is a solid B. ;-). SO the scum-bag who she is committing adultery with is better than a B? I doubt it. Most of us would be very happy with spouses who are 85% of what we want. See my point? This is HER problem, not yours. Are there lessons to be learned? Sure. Can you improve? Sure. But..YOU didn't make her have an affair or make her break up your family. That's on her.
5. For a humorous perspective on cheaters and also as a way to get a little "fight" back into you, check out the Chump Lady website. She's freaking hilarious. Very sobering and very funny. Like cold water on the face.
6. Sometimes, people just suck and they don't change back into the nice people you thought they were. Sometimes your in-laws suck. Sometimes people will support and coddle cheaters. Those people are also flaming pieces of turd. What's with this whole bullsh*t culture of non-judgement? If they aren't siding with the victim, they are siding with the offender. No two ways about it. Lean to surround yourself with people worthy of your kindness.
--Theoden
Amen!!! ^^^^^^
Sandie has often offered advise to LBS. The theme seems to reasonate around the disrespect that WAW in an affair can feel and be capable of. First things first...stop the bleeding. Give W a strong version of you. Would you allow anyone else to treat you or your kids this way?
Be respectful of her as a human being but stop the bleeding and begin to see what the world has to offer you (not saying date...other stuff that makes you and the kids happy...) as much as legally possible cut her off. I waited far to longwith mine and I didn't make for a positive Outcome that I left the finances intact. She didn't care...she just complained and felt entitled...
Theoden - thank you!! This is great.
MVG - I wish I had words like this shouted at me a LONG time ago.
Theoden,
Thank you for this very frank assessment of my sitch...I need it.
1) Thank you. I don't feel like I'm doing fine, at least physically. I feel sick and exhausted all of the time.
2) I said these exact words to both her and her parents. They said nothing back. Zero.
3) Right now I am not treating her like the love of my life. I'm treated her like someone who is breaking up our family. I'm trying to get this over with as fast as possible for all of us. Regarding the false nobility, I actually mean it. If she finds happiness, real happiness, that will be better for the boys. Will karma get her? Maybe. Today, I hope it does. But at some point, I need (want) my boys to have two happy & healthy parents.
4) I don't want to protect her, I want to protect my kids. I agree with you 100000% on adversity builds character by the way. At the right time, my kids will know that I didn't abandon them. That's all I want out of this. We don't have joint cards, only a joint checking which I stopped putting money into.
Other 4) I'm going to GAL and 180 bc I realize I am not participating in a healthy manner and perhaps haven't been for a long time. If she comes back, we'll see where we are but I don't see anyway to come back from this, even as friends. Regarding the 85%, I thought that was good too. It saddens me for her that she's going to chase that 15%, never realizing that nobody is perfect. Who knows, maybe she's already found it with OM. There is about 2.5% chance of that being true correct?
6) So far, I'm definitely seeing that. I understand that her parents don't want to get involved, at the same time, if I ever pulled a stunt like this, my parents would've kicked the living crap out of me and her father would've had me hanging from a phone pole.
Paul,
I keep getting stuck on the point of "not allowing others to treat me this way"
I would flip out if my kids were ever treated this way, no doubt. However, my L has advised me to stay in the home. I didn't need L to tell me that, I'm not leaving my kids. So I can tell my W all of the ways her actions are disrespectful and how I won't tolerate it but I can't take any action (aside from leaving the home)
As others have said, she has free will, she's going to do whatever she wants.
If we can agree in mediation, I'll tough this out another 60 days.
As others have said, she has free will, she's going to do whatever she wants.
But you could crank up some Norwegian Death Metal to "11" while she does...
WHO'S PAYING FOR HER CELLPHONE SERVICE? Her Internet connection??
She has paid her own cell bill since we met, I pay our internet bc I work from home 80% of the time. She has her own checking account and her own credit cards. I'm really hoping to not have to play hard ball here.
MVG,
You said...
Regarding the false nobility, I actually mean it. If she finds happiness, real happiness, that will be better for the boys. Will karma get her? Maybe. Today, I hope it does. But at some point, I need (want) my boys to have two happy & healthy parents.
Allow me to disagree. Actually statistics show that kids who live in homes with an OK marriage (not good, not great, but just OK) do BETTER than kids who live in a divorced home where BOTH parents are happier with their new spouses. Divorce only makes the parents happier, not the kids. There's a landmark study on divorce by Judith Wallerstein that followed divorced kids 25 years after their parents divorced and the stats aren't pretty. Only in homes where there is physical or emotional abuse OR serial adultery do the kids do better if the parents divorce.
Even in cases where you have a "good" divorce and both parents are nice to each other afterwards and there is no animosity, the kids do worse IN ALL ASPECTS than in homes where the parents stayed together and has mediocre or functional marriages.
Sorry. That's the latest research. Judith Wallerstein,
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study. And Elizabeth Marquardt,
Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of the Children of Divorce.Don't read these books now. Don't give them to your wife. She won't change her mind. The only thing to take note of is that in Between Two Worlds, the author notes that the false "divorce happy talk" that parents use to paint over the wreckage of the divorce doesn't help kids. It's OK to let kids know that this hurts, it's OK to be very sad and that they can talk about it with you. There are lots of "divorce happy talk" books out there. They makes the kids feel guilty that they are upset.
Oh and philosophically speaking, your wife won't find REAL happiness in a marriage or dating relationship built on an affair.
--Theoden
What does hardball look like to you?
Theoden,
I agree with you, let me try and say it differently.
I know the research you're speaking about, I actually looked into it first bc my parents split when I was 3. I'm not 36 and have always been curious about long term research. I found this information fascinating (and depressing at the same time)
My M wasn't perfect. I get that. However, if my W is miserable with me, outwardly, what choices do I have? If she never returns to our M, wouldn't I want her to be happy?
I want nothing more than for a magic bullet to fix all of this. I know that's not going to happen. My 180s and GAL are for me. If that brings her back, so be it. My kids deserve it. S4 is very sensitive, he cries about the smallest things. He adores us and we adore him. He and I do everything together from hike to grocery shop on Sundays to cook to play guitar to...well, everything. He wakes up in the middle of the night and I put him back to sleep. He's my best bud and my heart breaks that he is going to be upset. I've had nightmares about it for weeks now.
I know she won't find true happiness, I'm worried for my kids that she is breaking up this family for something that doesn't even exist. She is using words like fate, kismet, destiny and all the stuff like that. The therapist thinks there is an element of MLC to this. My W is reading a book right now on the afterlife....
I'm scared, confused, angry, hurt, worried...you name it. I just want my kids to be happy and protected. I know that comes from a two parent house, I know that. I just have no idea how to keep that for them aside from living in the house while she dates other men (her original request) to find out if there's "something better out there" (her words)
Would you suggest that is the right course of action?
Mvg,
She has paid her own cell bill since we met, I pay our internet bc I work from home 80% of the time. She has her own checking account and her own credit cards. I'm really hoping to not have to play hard ball here.
It looks like most of your finances are separate, which is good.
Not much you can do here then. Ask Starsky. ;-)
Try
After the last resort technique in the Divorce Remedy.
Generally speaking making her feel the consequences of her actions is getting rid of an
attitude of "kick me more" and "I still need you" and "I'm afraid to upset you" AND taking on one of "I'm moving on, you are the losing the best guy you will ever find, and it looks like you have crossed the point of NO RETURN".
Try the site I recommended to help to gain that attitude.
--Theoden
Mvg,
Would you suggest that is the right course of action?
Proceed forward with a divorce with the aim to protect YOU and your KIDS. Full steam ahead.
Take care of yourself.
Take a more f*ck you attitude towards your wife. ;-)
By the way, those are the only things that
might re-attract her.
Living in a home with an open marriage will not be good for you or your kids. So if she wants to date, you are right to divorce her.
--Theoden
Yea, this is what both the L and therapist suggested. She's not leaving me much of a choice. She wants a D, I'll give it to her.
Last night was my best attempt at a f**k you attitude. It felt awful to even go there but enough was enough. I'm not very confrontational and it sucked.
Thank you so much for your advice on this, all of you.
Time to call the mediator...ugh...
I completely feel your pain mvg. I don't even know how to get to the f**k you attitude. My anger dissipates quickly. I've been too nice too long and it still feels natural.
It does suck
Just some journaling...
Been home two hours, after last night I have no idea how to exist in this house together. I said some really dumb stuff to her already but am now in our room alone, kids are asleep.
I hate the person this is turning me into. I'm a glass is half full kinda guy. Her aunt says I have sunshine blowing out of my a** This version of me is awful. So much hate, anger, bitterness. I don't want to be this guy..
I really only have two hours a day with her, I can do better, I have to do better.
Gonna put my headphones on and watch Homeland. If she starts trashing me on the phone again to OM, hopefully I won't hear it.
Left a message for the mediator, hope to hear back soon.
PMA, PMA, PMA....
Sorry but this whole fairy tell land is for the birds...you say dont you want your spouse to be happy??? Well guess what NO!! marriage is built on happy and sad times. Yes you may have had some bad coping skills in the past but hello we are here getting much needed support to change our R. The roles dont change regardless if we are happy or not. Dont forget marriage is not built on feelings its built on vows and committment among other unpleasantries. The reseach says we are not that different from happy thriving couples as well. We must look past the individual and look at he real needs not what we see and hear. Ok Im getting off the soap box.
It's taken this awful situation and 12 years to make me realize that you can't "make" someone happy. Perhaps if I hadn't spent most of my efforts as a pleaser/fixer, I wouldn't be in this mess. I can't expect my stbxw to suddenly share my views on M. The fact that BD was two weeks after I got laid off, when we got pre-approved for a mortgage that was 125k less than the houses she was looking at, AND on my birthday, makes me understand that our goals were probably never the same. I blame myself for being to stupid or optimistic to realize that.
Mvg, to be painfully honest, your wife sounds like a bit of a princess. Are you sure this is a woman of quality you want to fight for?
Just some journaling...
Been home two hours, after last night I have no idea how to exist in this house together. I said some really dumb stuff to her already but am now in our room alone, kids are asleep.
I hate the person this is turning me into. I'm a glass is half full kinda guy. Her aunt says I have sunshine blowing out of my a** This version of me is awful. So much hate, anger, bitterness. I don't want to be this guy..
I really only have two hours a day with her, I can do better, I have to do better.
Gonna put my headphones on and watch Homeland. If she starts trashing me on the phone again to OM, hopefully I won't hear it.
Left a message for the mediator, hope to hear back soon.
PMA, PMA, PMA....
Then don't let it turn you into a person you hate.
You have that power.
You have a good handle on you. You're hurt and angry right now but we've all been there and you'll get over that if you allow yourself. Anger is normal in this but as I learned here, we should use our anger as a shield, not a sword. Let it propel you forward not keep you stuck in revenge and resentment. From what you I read here, that's not you.
Decide what's important for you and your kids and proceed. No one knows that but you. If she's done, she's done. I assume you have a L who's working for your best interests.
Keep the focus on you and your kids. You can't go wrong there.
It's taken this awful situation and 12 years to make me realize that you can't "make" someone happy. Perhaps if I hadn't spent most of my efforts as a pleaser/fixer, I wouldn't be in this mess. I can't expect my stbxw to suddenly share my views on M. The fact that BD was two weeks after I got laid off, when we got pre-approved for a mortgage that was 125k less than the houses she was looking at, AND on my birthday, makes me understand that our goals were probably never the same. I blame myself for being to stupid or optimistic to realize that.
There's no need to blame yourself for everything. She has her role in all this. Maybe you didn't see that in her, now you do. Sometimes we turn away or make excuses about things we don't want to see. Maybe she changed or maybe she just became more of who she really is. That's for her to figure out.
Reality is, she's done. Let her go.
Although it's painful, things will get better. Then you can figure out the fixer-pleaser stuff.
Starsky,
This isn't anything friends haven't been telling me for years, wish I would've opened my eyes a long time ago. Our house "had" to be over a certain dollar amount, engagement ring same thing. I was such an idiot.
Thanks labug,
Shield not sword...this is great and something I'll repeat to myself over and over. I know what the right thing is to do, I really do. It's a mix of STFU and cool like Bond. I'll get better at it everyday. I'm counting the days to physical separation...can't wait.
I actually think you're doing fine. Your perspective is great, although clouded at times. (whose isn't)
You know what your flaws are. Nothing that can't be fixed with work.
You're perhaps seeing your wife more clearly now. Maybe she was a princess, but she was YOUR princess and you participated in that, had 2 children with her. Good info to have for your future work. "Why did I need that?"
You're hurting now and with good reason. But when we hurt we want to hurt others. Get back at them. Ego rules.
We're the animal backed into a corner. Move out of your lower brain and into your higher brain. I can tell by your writing that you can do that.
Otherwise we hand all control to them and jump right on their roller coaster.
This is vital ^^^, to avoid repeating ourselves, getting into the same R as the failed one.
But please don't beat yourself up right now for not seeing who she was/is... keep the focus on you and your kids until the dust settles.
It's official now...she has defriended all of my family and tons of mutual friends on her FB page! Holy smokes Batman!
This all feels way too much like a highschool drama...I'm too old for this nonsense.
Trying to psych myself up for NYE tonight. We are taking S4/S1 to our friends house for a big sleepover, time to play family again....
I feel like the better question is why did I WANT that. I didn't need it. I fell in love with what I thought was an awesome woman. As the years went on, I started to see that perhaps I was wrong. I thought it was all on me. If I could just do this, just do that, then she'd be happy.
My concerns are about her mental stability. Years back, her therapist called me to tell me that she needed medication. I wrote about it anonymously for a few months on a support forum much like this. She found it, read everything and currently places about 50% of the D on what she calls the ultimate betrayal. Let's ignore the fact that I sincerely was scared, confused and worried about her and my family. I bought into what the therapist told me hook line and sinker. To my W, that is the crime.
Well fast forward to a few weeks ago and her (our) new therapist is saying almost the same thing. She is calling it a 3 part cocktail. 1 part postpartum, 1 part MLC, 1 part potential mental illness (NPD, BPD). Put in glass, shake, stir and get the F out of the way.
So no, I didn't need her, I wanted her. I believed that under everything that I was told was going on, or potentially going on, was the smart, funny, beautiful girl I met. I still think she's in there somewhere, I'm probably wrong.
Well fast forward to a few weeks ago and her (our) new therapist is saying almost the same thing. She is calling it a 3 part cocktail. 1 part postpartum, 1 part MLC, 1 part potential mental illness (NPD, BPD). Put in glass, shake, stir and get the F out of the way.
My sitch is/was (peri)menopause, HPD (diagnosed), depression, and CSA... the hardest thing for me to realize was there is nothing more I can do, and my Protector had a LOT of trouble with that.
But it is the ultimate act of love, to get out of their way, set them free to experience whatever life is going to show them. It doesn't take away from the past, the love that was there for her.
Please do something fun and good for yourself and kids tonight... the sitch can wait.
All four of us headed to a big sleepover....wish me luck
Good Luck...or you can make your own luck
Focus on the kids
Listen to T, he is very wise. I used to hunt up his posts for inspiration.
When you say postpartum, I assume you mean postpartum depression. I was going to ask about that. She may be a very different woman in a year with treatment but perhaps not. I'm not suggesting you wait a year to see cause a lot of damage can be done in a year. You need to protect you and sometimes the shock of you maintaining your boundaries (I don't mean be a jerk) can actually be helpful.
Sometimes not. So you have to do what's right for you and your kids.
But as T says, make your own luck and enjoy the time with the kiddos.
May the end of this new year find you in a better place.
Well that was fun....
W on phone all night with OM at the party. I felt terrible for our friends who were hosting. At one point W asked our friends to use her phone to take a pic and texts from OM came up, they were pissed. W "went to the bathroom" for an hour at one point with her phone. I'm glad our friends got to see this and make up their own opinions.
I am desperate to detach. I can't live my life like this , it's too painful to watch, especially this close up.
Detachment doesn't just happen, it's a process made up of steps you take every moment of the day.
You can do this.
Some major backsliding recently...
The mediator called yesterday...it was a very difficult and sad phone call to have. I brokedown a few times while on the phone with him, it was embarrassing.
A short while later me, W, S4&S1 were in the living room just having fun. I looked at S4, so unbelievably innocent and sweet and got very upset. My W said she was going out for a while and was telling me bc she "has to think about these types of things now in fear of me arguing she is never home"
I snapped and told her the only thing she should be thinking about is breaking the kids hearts and that she is making the biggest mistake of hdr life. I was visibly upset and it wasn't good.
I'm obviously having a hard time detaching, especially bc of the living situation, but I'm having an exceedingly difficult time when thinking of my boys. Knowing that 70-80% of these wives try to come back and that relationships that start as affairs have a 2-3% chance of long term success, I can't help but see collateral damage when I see my boys... It's crushing me.
Sorry for the rant, just having a rough day
Mvg. This is the place to rant Don't beat yourself up over backslide. Learn from it. Your W doesn't want to hear anything from you at the moment The biggest lesson to learn is to STFU. work on you and take each day as it comes You will get through this , with or without W. I'm no vet but boundaries seem to be in order re OM Take care. Rd
thanks RD,
Having a very rough few days. Earlier today I came across an old text message on my phone and I realized that my W took me, S4&S1 to OM apartment for a play date with his two girls just 48 hours before BD...
Hi mvg. Been following your story, I am truly sorry. Keep writing, someone is reading.
Hi MVG,
My 3 kids took over my bed so I'm relegated to the couch doing some reading:). I just read your thread and I'm sorry you find yourself here. You've gotten some great advice from some wise peeps like Starsky, Theoden, Labug and T2. And wise advice from some newbies. You sound like a good guy and a loving father. That's awesome!
I'm no vet but there were several things in your sitch that resonated with me. I know you are close to your W's parents. Please note they are in a difficult spot. My x ILs actually spent Christmas with me as their son (xh) hasn't spoken to them in almost a year. However, I'm probably the exception versus the norm as they help me in many, many ways. I'm grateful for that and I also know how much they love and are hurt by their son. Kinda svkks to watch.
I see how much you want to protect your kids and I 100% completely relate. I am one of those crazy overachievers and my h said at BD the children were the most important thing to me. And he was right. I didn't put my M first. However, my focus now is certainly on helping them through something that doesn't really happen in either of our families. Guilting or shaming your w won't work. Right now, (and maybe forever- who knows?) she's the victim (apparently wearing a tiara I might add) in all of this. Don't engage in crazy. You will feel absolutely bat$h!t and that won't help your kids. Focus on them. Let your w go. She wants to go. I know it hurts- I do. You will see things differently in time.
In regards to seeing old TMs that had you feeling nostalgic for the woman you loved. Don't. Go. There. Funny for you. I was so perplexed right after BD that I needed to apply my always present logic ( I'm very logical. Xh is super sensitive and runs on sheer emotion. He actually has said a number of times that he doesn't understand how I can function being so logical:-). I went back through old text messages and saw how xh loved me. Sent me flirty texts daily. Told me how funny and beautiful I was. And just as I teared up, I inadvertently dropped my phone into a huge mug of coffee. I was so upset at first and I realized the universe was trying to tell me to "stop doing that to myself!!!" Don't torture yourself. What you had was real and you have 2 beautiful kids as a result.
Finally, in regards to your wife's mental health issues, IMHO, this is something she must own. I dealt with that for 11 years with xh and I think I secretly hoped *something* truly worked. I'm not a metal health expert ( just an armchair psychologist and relationship advisor to my friends:) but mental health issues can be exceptionally challenging.
Don't try to make your wife out to be something she's not to your kids. Trust me. You will regret that because there will probably come a time when they call you out on *defending* her inappropriate behavior. Just remind them how much she loves them. She will figure out her R with them on her own.
Just thought I would chime in. I think you are doing well be kind to yourself. T2 suggested Norwegian death metal but I'll suggest Cinderella or the Crüe:).
Hang in there. You will be great:-)
Knowing that 70-80% of these wives try to come back and that relationships that start as affairs have a 2-3% chance of long term success, I can't help but see collateral damage when I see my boys..
I don't know how accurate these figures are MVG, but I have seen something similar and THAT is what keeps me going.. If only timeframes were mentioned!!.. Knowing that at some stage they MIGHT come back is now giving me peace..
I have hit a point where I am detaching better than I ever have, and it has been a hard road to get here (and I still haven't reached the destination!!) but I have to look at the positives.. I just hope it isn't too late for my W if she decides to return..
I also understand EXACTLY what you are saying about collateral damage.. I quite often look at my 2 S's and wonder what they are thinking about all of this..
Where did you get those stats from?
Vasapro, Georgiabelle, LoveMyW, MrBond,
Thank you all for replying. After another night of nightmares, it's nice to wake up to some positive thoughts, greatly appreciated.
My FIL was here the other night, he actually got teary eyed in front of me and stbxw and said his daughter couldn't have picked a better husband. That was a very nice thing to hear even though it doesn't change anything. He's great and I'm upset we can't speak right now.
You're right, my kids are my life, 100%....perhaps that contributed to why I'm here in the first place. However, they are babies and I don't feel like I should apologize for that at this stage of their lives. (not that you think I should)
The old TMs were hard, but the one from yesterday had nothing to do with nostalgia or good feelings at all. I was really pissed off that stbxw took me to OM apartment within two days of BD. OM was giving S4 airplane rides around his apartment, he and my wife were standing waaay too close, they were talking about "their favorite beer"....all right in front of me. I'm angry but more so, I feel like a complete moron.
Your last point resonates with me. My kids will grow up seeing that I love them more than anything in the world. That they come first and always will. I want to give them the absolute best life that I can. If stbxw wants to participate, fantastic. She'll have her own chances to create a life for them as well and I hope it's a great one.
I'm gonna go crank up Kickstart My Heart and get ready for the day.
MrBond, the 80% stats I read here at one point, who knows about their accuracy. The 2% stat I read on the internet somewhere....so it is true
Thanks everyone.
MVG,
Detachment happens. You can't control it. You can't really "detach". When you can't function anymore, you begin to detach. Detachment for me meant numbness (I didn't care anymore). It's a defense mechanism to prevent emotional pain from destroying us.
Right now all you want to do is scream at your wife and tell her stop this insane merry-go-round she is putting you and your children through.
To be honest, it's kind of hard to pull a zen mind-trick and detach from all this.
Anger helps a bit with detachment. It's the first step in self-preservation.
Humor does too. I suggest you visit the site Chump Lady. Lots of humor there. You'll cry, you'll laugh, you'll get pissed. Check it out. Really, it might help you detach.
The only thing that will send a clear message to her is for you to move on. Divorcing her is moving on. She either changes her mind or she doesn't. If she does, great. If she doesn't, you protect yourself and your kids.
Actions speak louder than words. You've tried all the words you can try: begging, pleading, expressing love, demanding respect, setting boundaries. None of them seem to work.
So divorce the princess. That's something she'll understand. Get the best settlement financially you can and get at least 50% custody of the kids. That will say something clear to her. Your kids need one sane parent: you be that parent.
Divorce is a sh*t sandwich handed to us by our crazy spouses that hurts our children. No one said our life would be easy. This is your great trial.
Look -- of course she is going to have you visit the OM's house days just before she drops the bomb. This is textbook behavior. My ex screwed the OM in our car and in our house.
Look, some people s*ck. And some of them will have affairs shamelessly and expect everyone to be OK with it.
Once you realize and accept that right now (and perhaps forever more) your wife s*cks, you might start moving on. You can't detach when you still are in a state of shock and disbelief, because you think SOMEHOW, your wife will snap out of it, since only a cruel person would act this way, and your wife can't be cruel.
Right now she is quite cruel.
You can treat it like a fog or temporary insanity, but that will only hinder you ability to detach and take steps to protect yourself. Treat her like someone who is unethical and mean.
--Theoden
Did you hear that?
That was Theoden's 2x4 slamming me in the face
I'd love to be numb right now, so very much. Anger is helping after the first two or three times. The first time I caught her on the phone with him I was really sad and upset. Second time? Pissed. Third time? Angry.
You're right. Nothing is working. When I am "nice" to her, she'll say things like, "We had a really nice day yesterday, why can't you just be like that?" Well, it was nice bc I faked it all day. I buried tears and anger all day. That's why.
She wants the D. Maybe even I do at this point. So, she'll get it. Mediator is sending over the paperwork this week. He said if we can agree to terms, this will be final in 60 days. Then, according to W, her "relationship" can go public and she'll introduce him to S4 & S1 in a new manner. S4 said two days ago he "wishes he had sisters," OM has two girls.....
As far as textbook behavior, that is crazy to me. Talking on the phone seems in your face enough, she shouldn't have invited me and given me a front row seat...that seems like some Dr. Evil stuff.
Yes, there is a very small piece of me, hiding way in the background in a dark place that wants this all to go away and for her to snap out of it...I hate to admit that to myself but it's true. Most hours of most days I accept the finality in all of this. Making my list of things to look forward to this year really helped.
Ok, off to read Chump Lady. Thanks again Theoden.
MVG,
My pleasure.
You are doing the right things. I'm proud of you. I was such a wussbag when I was DB-ing.
Strength and Honor!
--Theoden
MVG everything you are feeling is normal. You are still in a shock and awe state. Don't be too hard on yourself. These boards have been so helpful to me ( I've just stated posting but been reading for a year). Give your W space and fake it until you make it.
Thanks Karma,
She is getting all of the space she wants. Unfortunately, it's through a D. We signed and sent off the mediation papers yesterday, should have a meeting scheduled by the end of this week.
Unfortunately, we have S4/S1 as collateral damage, and that is giving me regular nightmares over the last two weeks.
Unfortunately, OM will be introduced in his new "role" as soon as the ink is dry.
S4 asked me a few days ago about "getting sisters"
Unfortunately, we still live in the same house and will be for quite some time.
Fortunately, I have this board for support.
Fortunately, this pain will eventually lessen.
MVG,
As long as you live in the same house, and/or are legally married, you can ask you lawyer to request (and the judge will back you up) that your kids are not exposed to your wife's paramours (OM, f*ck-buddies, soul-mates, latest squeezes, etc.). Talk to your lawyer about that.
Yeah, dude, broken homes are nightmares. You can't stop that. Our society doesn't value the nuclear family or fatherhood anymore. Nothing can stop your wife from wrecking your children's lives.
Did you hear me? You can't stop your wife from bringing a sh*t-storm to your kid's lives.
Nor can you stop your kids from getting hit by a bus, or getting on a plane that will crash.
You can't.
Sorry but that's true.
Let me correct myself....
Well...to be fair,God can do that. Ask him. Pray. But then he's not a cosmic bell-hop. Sometimes he does what we ask, sometimes he doesn't. He's all knowing, all-wise, all-powerful and all that. He also works things out in very strange, but ultimately perfect time-lines that leave us dumbfounded and furious. But then he's God and we're not. But since he is in control of everything, check in with him once in a while. And..just to cover your bases: ask. Ask him to turn the situation around. Ask him for your wife's repentance. Ask for the impossible. You may get what you ask for, or you may not, but last time I checked prayer always gives you something. Maybe that something is more important than what you think you really need.
Maybe it's a liberating thought to realize you have no control over your wife's actions.
Maybe work on what you do have control over:
1. You can try to prevent yourself from de-railing emotionally and becoming road-kill.
2. You can live a joyful, rich life full of purpose, delight and integrity.
3. You can get your groove back.
4. You can be the rock for your children.
5. You can flourish in business and have a great career.
6. You can make a difference in the world by heling heal it's hurts and wounds. Look up the Hebrew phrase "Tikkun Olam". Devote yourself to that.
7. You can earn your black-belt in Okinawan, bad-a$$ Karate or some other lethal martial art. You can become a living, breathing, weapon. Dunno what it's good for, but heck, I would like to be living and breathing weapon.
8. You can climb mountains and see the horizon above the tree-line in the mystic alpine zones of the Rockies, Cascades, Alps or Himalayas.
9. You might be able to fall madly in love with someone worth spending your life with. Someone who takes your breath away.
10. You can learn a new language and open yourself to a whole new group of people and places.
That's my top-ten for now. ;-)
And if you do some of those things, you will be the kind of person your kids will be able to trust, lean on, wonder at and imitate. The better YOU are, the better they will be.
They need a better role model than your wife who wants to trade her family for a f*ck-buddy.
Be that role model.
Strength and Honor,
--Theoden
Theoden,
As I've said before, thank you so much for your thoughts on this. Just like the rest of us here, getting support from all of you is so important and greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I know I can't stop it and you're right, that is oddly liberating. It's making it slightly easier to walk away.
I've never been very religious but have always believed...if that makes sense. The only other time I've prayed this much was when S4 was born (10 weeks premature). It does give me something, it's weird, I can't explain it. It's calming in a way, knowing I'm giving it all away to someone/something else.
Your list is great. I made up one similar a few weeks ago, here are a few.
1. Write a new album (was in a band for 11 years, two released albums...ironically, many songs about the situation I'm currently in...life imitates art I guess)
2. Learn Krav Maga.
3. Go to weekly Italian meetup groups in the city.
4. IC once or twice a month.
5. Take a solo trip to Italy when stbxw takes kids on vacation.
6. Volunteer at church 2x a month.
7. Train for the big 10 mile race in town.
Your #9. That sounds fantastic
MVG,
As long as you live in the same house, and/or are legally married, you can ask you lawyer to request (and the judge will back you up) that your kids are not exposed to your wife's paramours (OM, f*ck-buddies, soul-mates, latest squeezes, etc.). Talk to your lawyer about that.
Yeah, dude, broken homes are nightmares. You can't stop that. Our society doesn't value the nuclear family or fatherhood anymore. Nothing can stop your wife from wrecking your children's lives.
Did you hear me? You can't stop your wife from bringing a sh*t-storm to your kid's lives.
Nor can you stop your kids from getting hit by a bus, or getting on a plane that will crash.
You can't.
Sorry but that's true.
Let me correct myself....
Well...to be fair,God can do that. Ask him. Pray. But then he's not a cosmic bell-hop. Sometimes he does what we ask, sometimes he doesn't. He's all knowing, all-wise, all-powerful and all that. He also works things out in very strange, but ultimately perfect time-lines that leave us dumbfounded and furious. But then he's God and we're not. But since he is in control of everything, check in with him once in a while. And..just to cover your bases: ask. Ask him to turn the situation around. Ask him for your wife's repentance. Ask for the impossible. You may get what you ask for, or you may not, but last time I checked prayer always gives you something. Maybe that something is more important than what you think you really need.
Maybe it's a liberating thought to realize you have no control over your wife's actions.
Maybe work on what you do have control over:
1. You can try to prevent yourself from de-railing emotionally and becoming road-kill.
2. You can live a joyful, rich life full of purpose, delight and integrity.
3. You can get your groove back.
4. You can be the rock for your children.
5. You can flourish in business and have a great career.
6. You can make a difference in the world by heling heal it's hurts and wounds. Look up the Hebrew phrase "Tikkun Olam". Devote yourself to that.
7. You can earn your black-belt in Okinawan, bad-a$$ Karate or some other lethal martial art. You can become a living, breathing, weapon. Dunno what it's good for, but heck, I would like to be living and breathing weapon.
8. You can climb mountains and see the horizon above the tree-line in the mystic alpine zones of the Rockies, Cascades, Alps or Himalayas.
9. You might be able to fall madly in love with someone worth spending your life with. Someone who takes your breath away.
10. You can learn a new language and open yourself to a whole new group of people and places.
That's my top-ten for now. ;-)
And if you do some of those things, you will be the kind of person your kids will be able to trust, lean on, wonder at and imitate. The better YOU are, the better they will be.
They need a better role model than your wife who wants to trade her family for a f*ck-buddy.
Be that role model.
Strength and Honor,
--Theoden
2015's first "Four Whistles" Award. Amazing post, Theo!!!
Starsky
MVG,
Krav Maga rocks.
You are going to be OK. You already sound stronger and more purposeful than your first post in this forum.
Not only that, but I really like you. You sound like a great guy -- the kind of guy I would hang out with, and who I think would have my back. We all deserve people like that in our lives. I hope you begin to see your how valuable and amazing you are. Your kids need you to be that, and I'm sure your friends and family will appreciate your flourishing.
Strength and Honor