Card29 VIII - DivorceBusting.com

New thread. Previous thread.

Following up to uRworthy:

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

What can you do to make your present situation a better one? I can think of a couple. Set some boundaries with your mom. Make walking the dog part of your exercise. Make new memories with your daughter.

Those are good. I already have a baby monitor installed in her room so that I'm the one to get her in the middle of the night (rarely needed).

Here's another idea, though: Repeat to myself everyday what you said 4 sentences before that, which was...

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

So, you had hope. Nothing wrong with that. You can have it. You just dont want to live in it, ya know?

We're closing on our house in 45 minutes. I know I'm already dead, but it still feels like I'm waiting for the gallows. I thought I'd already processed the loss of the house. I mean, we lost it as soon as she signed a 13-month apt lease (at the high end of the market, too) back in July. Part of me thought it wouldn't sell, though, and I'd find a perfect roommate, or something. We had zero bites, then suddenly someone made an offer, right before the "dead period" during the holidays. We were actually talking about taking it off of the market until the spring if it didn't sell by Thanksgiving. We accepted the offer a week before Thanksgiving.

I'm also torn a bit with the living-at-mom's-house sitch. On one hand, I'm about to make the classic "failure" mistake...living in mom's basement when I turn 30. On the other, it sure will be nice to have $1700 a month in mortgage, utilities, taxes, etc back in my pocket. I thought I would be totally content to save and wait until the summer before moving out. Now I don't know if I could make it to March.

Gallows are delayed lol. Paperwork wasn't ready yet from lender

WAW was pretty nasty earlier when she arrived at the first scheduled closing. She sat in her car while the realtor and I stood outside of it explaining to her what happened. She acted like she always does in those situations. Instead of realizing that it's not that big of an inconvenience and it's no one's fault who is standing there, she was rude to both of us, and very angry. When I got back in my car, I called her to offer to go to the bank with and her take my name off of her account, since we were both already away from work and next to each other. She answered the phone with, "What could you possibly be asking of me right now??" I said, "I was going to offer to go to the bank with you, but that doesn't seem like a good idea." She mumbled something about why that was pointless right now and hung up. Not really looking forward to seeing her again in 1.5 hours.

Card,

See that?? You just had to go and try to smooth things over with the offer to go to the bank when the best course of action was to just let W go. Her feelings are hers to own and process. Next time, don't feel 'obligated' to smooth things over when you see W crying or being angry. Try to be a witness to them and then move forward.

Ready for a detach fail? Then read on! Consider this a confessional.

My detach is in the gutter right now. We had to sit around waiting for the closer or almost 2 hours (traffic in our city was a disaster today, several huge wrecks). She kept texting and texting secretly while we were sitting at the table. I tried to let it to in already dead, I'm alread dead. Well, eventually I see that she's texting to a phone number (not a contact stored in her phone). I found that strange...why wouldn't you save this person, who has captivated you at least long enough for you to ignore everyone in the room for 2 hours, to your phone contacts?

After we finally finished and left, my curiousity and lack of detachment got the best of me, and I looked up the number. It's a pre-paid phone. So...W is dating (or at least flirting with) a married man? I tried to think of another reason to balance it out but I failed.

Really, it drove me crazy for about an hour, but now the sting has worn off. I'm already dead, right? I'm definitely not going to mention it to her or anyone else IRL. Not too proud that I had to snoop. And even if I did say something to her, what would be the point? She already told me she wanted to date others, and the other day she told me she has "situations", whatever that means. I didn't dig, she offered me the info, and she presented it like she wasn't interested in them? But I've interpretted stuff like that from her in "positive" ways before and it turned out she was just trying to ease me down. The more I learn, the less I wish I knew...maybe it will reach a detachment breaking point, where I really do want to not know anything going on with her.

Oh, weird moment...seeing your house full of other people's stuff. While we were sitting at the closing forever chatting with the buyers, I remembered that is left one thing in a closet. They said "no prob, just come grab it tonight". They'd already moved half of their stuff in when I got there. Just a very strange thing to see 24 hrs after moving out.

I feel okay at the moment, best I've felt all day. I at least feel settled for the day. House sold, dogs walked, D2 in bed, dinner is in the oven and basketball on TV. I'll enjoy the next couple of hours.

Card, not a vet but just my 2cents.

Originally Posted By: Card29

my curiousity and lack of detachment got the best of me, and I looked up the number. It's a pre-paid phone. So...W is dating (or at least flirting with) a married man? I tried to think of another reason to balance it out but I failed.

This is one huge assumption you just made. You're assuming....

1. You're W is dating
2. You're W is flirting
3. It's a man
4. It's a married man

You remember the old saying what happens when you assume? It just makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me." Trust me, I struggle with snooping all the time because it's just so easy. But all I've learned is that when I snoop I begin to assume things that most the time aren't even true.

Case in point, my W started receiving a bunch of picture messages from a phone that I don't recognize late Friday evenings and it was registered to a guy. My first thought was crap why is this guy sending my wife a bunch of pictures on Friday and what could they possibly be. I didn't ask her about it but in one of our conversations you know what it ended up being? what she told me? That her boss at work sends out the schedule for the following week to her and all the employees on Friday evenings.

I felt like an idiot at that point and I was glad I didn't ask her but that caused me so much stress for about a couple weeks. I still struggle with this daily but my point is don't assume things because most of the time they aren't even true and our thoughts just spiraled downward. Hope this helps and enjoy your night!

Hey Card. You know, I need to give you a nickname. Not diggin Card.

Hmmm. Gotta think on it.

Sorry about the house. This stuff just succks.

And yea, about the snooping...that never goes well. The thing of it is...if you find something out, you cant do anything about it. So, you are just spinning your wheels because you will never know what is really going on..so, no sense doing that, right?

Boy, did you go from zero to 100 with it, though. No more, ok?

I can imagine how tough it was to see other people and their stuff in your home, C.

As far as your w, she is angry and you are trying to make it all better. Um, yea, dont do that.

She has to live with the natural consequences of her actions. You dont want to provide them, but you dont want to stand in the way of them, ya know?

Too bad so sad that she was angry and wound up being rude. Not your problem. Say that with me....Not your problem.

Not my problem

Thanks for the 2x4's. I know the snooping is pointless. For the last few months I've done well not thinking about that stuff with her, it was just extra hard yday because she was sitting next to me for two hours, the longest time we've been together without moving around or doing something since BD.

No more, I promise.

On a joy/happiness/self-worth scale of 1 to 10, I've pulled myself from a 2 to a 4 this morning by clearing out a few boxes, shaving for the first time in 3 days and taking a shower.

This made me laugh and I really haven't laughed in a few days.

Glad I could provide some comic relief

I just had a realization about why this is hitting me so hard (even though it hits everyone hard). I've always wanted to avoid being my dad, especially his bad qualities. So I didn't drink until I was 29, I didn't go out and party once I settled down, I was a Mr Nice Guy which was the opposite of explosive and rage-filled (he was at times, not all of the time). But the last two weeks I've been full of self-loathing, I feel inadequate, ugly, unwanted, rejected. I guessed these feelings are normal after finding out your W wants a divorce, but I think I'm having an especially hard time because I really did become my dad. I'm not an alcoholic, but my W doesn't love me, just like my mom didn't love my dad even though they never got a D. I thought I'd been full of self-worth for my whole life. I thought I was a "catch", and I was content in our M. But was I depending on my W's acceptance of me to make me feel like that?

Quote:

But the last two weeks I've been full of self-loathing, I feel inadequate, ugly, unwanted, rejected.

This is exactly how I have been feeling. I had planned on making myself get out and go shopping today with hopes of soaking up some Christmas cheer by osmosis. Fail. Still in my pajamas and it's 3PM.

My shower/shave was the best thing I did today. That and taking D2 on a decently long walk despite the cold. Got a few tears out which at least took away someone of the pain

Not sure if this would work for you. But I find the best way to make me happy is to make someone else happy. It seems to be really working right now for me. Wishing a stranger marry Christmas, smiling. Thanking a friend or co-worker for help or just telling them they are doing a good job.
If I do this I feel I really am a good person, and a catch and that my wife is fkd in the head for doing what she is doing..lol

Originally Posted By: Card29

But the last two weeks I've been full of self-loathing, I feel inadequate, ugly, unwanted, rejected. I guessed these feelings are normal after finding out your W wants a divorce, but I think I'm having an especially hard time because I really did become my dad. I'm not an alcoholic, but my W doesn't love me, just like my mom didn't love my dad even though they never got a D. I thought I'd been full of self-worth for my whole life. I thought I was a "catch", and I was content in our M. But was I depending on my W's acceptance of me to make me feel like that?

I feel the same inadequacy, of course. I guess we all do.

What made a difference for me was to meet several friends and family members who really believe in me, who find me interesting and attractive. It gave me a boost which carried me for a few days and probably spared me a few lows.

I really like Zed's idea: try to make someone happy. I do it with my kids, but I'm going to try it with more people. It's nice already to take the focus off of myself.

Good for you - keep doing it. You are worthy, loveable and these feelings are normal. I too struggle with them. It [censored] doesn't it.

Originally Posted By: zed

Not sure if this would work for you. But I find the best way to make me happy is to make someone else happy. It seems to be really working right now for me. Wishing a stranger marry Christmas, smiling. Thanking a friend or co-worker for help or just telling them they are doing a good job.
If I do this I feel I really am a good person, and a catch and that my wife is fkd in the head for doing what she is doing..lol

At my work, I go out of my way to greet everyone who is a regular, say good bye.

Now if I'm not busy, I say it if I'm with someone I have a special wave. People are seeking me out. They like to feel welcome.
I try to joke with them too, or have a funny story. Customers actually come and ask about my hounds and the latest disaster or what they have eaten this time.
Those that have dogs too come and share with me.

I was in the past out going and happy. I became a negative depressed mute before and after bd I had added vomiting and Severe anxiety.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Zed, yes that usually does work for me. I've been seriously lacking the drive to go anywhere to do that though. I was able to have a great last hour of the day with D2, ending with a snuggled viewing of the 1966 version of the Grinch. It all made D2 very happy, which made me happier

Texted with WAW earlier and found out she's having a really bad day. Didn't tell me if she's physically sick or having some kind of mental problem related to her meds or depression. It explains her nastiness yesterday, as well as the fact that she went home and slept from 12:30-3:30 yday afternoon (between housing closing appts) instead of going back to work. I offered sympathy and asked if she had everything she needed. She said no. I didn't ask what she needed, I just said I was here if she wanted me to help.

Had a text convo with WAW yday and today. She is really struggling right now. Losing weight again. I don't know if she feels guilty, hopeless, shamed, all of the above, etc. I tried to convey my understanding and sympathy. Screwed up and told her I missed being her rock when she needed it. Later I said I was sorry if that made her feel worse. She responded that everything made her feel worse.

Lately I've had the selfish thoughts of "if we can't be happy together I don't want her to be happy with anyone". I don't really believe that, and I felt guilty every time I had that thought. Today was the first day in a while that I really felt inside of me that I wanted her to be happy regardless of her decision. I told her today that she deserves joy and love. I don't think she believes that and hasn't since she was a kid, if you ask me. She was insecure when I met her and it never seemed to change

We all have negative thoughts card. Good thing is you pulled yourself out of yours. Well done. Take care. Rd

Card,

I understand the struggle, but you have to stop pursuing her. Take a step back and read your posts and think of if you were reading someone else's thread .. What advice would you offer? I know you're concerned about your W but she needs to see that you are not always there. The more you pursue her and offer if she needs anything, etc she knows you are waiting for her while she's not commited to her M.

Sorry if this comes off harsh... I say it with love!

I hear what you're saying, T. I've always struggled with this, though, because I was already not there for her for several years, without even realizing it. So it's kind of a 180 for me to want to talk with her, to show her compassion and affection. But I also know that she's in no mood to receive any of it from me. It will have to wait until she's ready to receive it, which appears likely to never happen.

Today, though, I really was concerned about her wellbeing more than my M. I know she has at least contemplated suicide before. Shes not mentioning anything like that to me, but given her history and the fact that she's going through the worst period of her life, I can't imagine that she hasn't thought about it lately. I've never thought she would actually attempt it, but who knows. Without me being there, when she gets in a really bad spot like she is now, it just makes me worry. Not sure what I could do right now, anyway, unless she asked for specific help from me.

She just picked up D2 and she looked really bad. Lips pale white, empty eyes. That did not make me feel any better for her. She barely cracked a smile when she saw D2. It's almost impossible for me to do this given her state, but I'm going to leave her alone for the night.

Originally Posted By: Card29

It will have to wait until she's ready to receive it, which appears likely to never happen.

Argh! It drives me nuts when people write this on this board. When you were at the altar, what were the chances of separating? In your head, nil. When you had a baby, when you bought a house, what were the chances of separating? Nil, again. Yet, today, you are suddenly convinced that you can read the future. You simply don't know how she will feel tomorrow, next week and next month. And feelings change. When you got married, all signs were that you'd be happy forever, yet it changed. Today, she can very well look like she doesn't want you anymore, ever. So what? That's how it looked in every successful sitches. This is not to say that we know she'll be back, but that the true, honest, realistic assessment is that we don't know at all. It can go either way, even if the worst of sitches. And yours is not one of the worst, by far.

And I agree with those who believe that you pursue too much. It's been your problem for several weeks at least. Pursuing hurts you when she wants none of it. Imagine being pursued by someone you're trying to flee. It does not endear you. It looks controlling. If you could stop pursuing, I bet you'd see her opening up more, not less. Perhaps you can try for a day?

Moz, thanks for the 2x4's. I'm still trying to find where I can live with hope but not live IN hope, per uRworthy's advice. I guess I swung too far the other way with the "appears likely to never happen".

And yes, I am a habitual pursuit offender. At one point I had turned the corner but winter and the holidays killed a lot of my GAL activities. Okay, as I'm writing this she just texted me, "I think I have to brave the mall tomorrow". Normally I would respond immediately, especially since I just got back from the mall and I could tell her it wasn't that bad. I'm going to let it go for the night.

Card,

Why not send a jokey response?

Watch out for the Mall Cops!

. Good luck.

Okay she texted me like 4 times so I had to respond. Trying to stick to the 80% rule (give back 80% of what she gives)

Hey Card. I wanted to talk with you about a few things.

The first is that I get why you feel as you do about yourself. The person you loved and trusted most in the world, doesnt want to be with you at this time.

The thing about that is this. Our worth should not come from others. We get to define it. Now thats not to say that others feelings towards us dont matter. They do.

My mother was an alcoholic. I couldnt do anything right in her eyes. I tried my whole life to get her to like me.

I married a man who was controlling and condescending.

I allowed both of them to make me feel less than.

I realized that they were the mirrors I used to reflect back what they saw about me.

The thing is that they were both broken. So what was reflected back, wasnt true.

So, I needed to get new mirrors. As I grew, I watched how people responded to me.

I watched how people were around me.

I realized that my mother and my xh were wrong about me. So, I continued to look inside. I became the person I wanted to be.

When I did, I realized that I was worthy. I was enough.

I learned that what other people reflecte back was important, the most important mirror was the one I looked into. I had to determine my worth. I had to base it on who I had become. Was I a good person, a kind one. How did I live my life?

Because if we allow others to define us..we give them all the power. They dont get to have it. It's ours.

Be the person you choose to be. Be that person every day. Some days you make it, some you dont. But that should always be the goal.

The other thing is that we have no idea what the future holds. None. Anythiing could happen. You never would have forseen this, right?

That's just defeating thinking.

About hope. When you are ready, you have to start living your life. I mean really living it. Fill it up. Fill it with people and things and memories. Fill it with trying new stuff.

As you do, you start to realize that you are ok. When that happens, you can make a decision, if you want to, of leaving the door open a crack. So that if she looks to you, you make a decision about what you want from a place of strength.

Thats what I mean by having hope, but, not living in it.

About being there for her. I know that you worry that since you werent there for her the last few years, that you need to show her you are now.

I feel this way. She is telling you she doesnt want to be married. She needs you to hear that. You dont have to like it. But you do have to hear it.

You can be kind and compassionate without pursuing. You also need to have her live in the natural consequences of her actions. That doesnt mean you cause that, just that you allow it to unfold.

I know you are concerned about her. But maybe she doesnt get the help she needs because she gets it from you.

When I was depressed, as long as I had someone listen to me, I didnt really need to do the work. I poured my stuff out. They told me what they thought I wanted to hear and then I was good for a bit.

This doesnt mean you should be nasty. You should be the kind of person you want to be.

It doesnt mean you play games either. I hate games.

It just means that you fill up and live your life. So that you arent always around whenever she wants to dump on you. Because you are too busy living your life, ya know?

If she reached out and you want to answer, listen, say sorry you are feeling this way and on your way you go.

URWorthy, that is great, and very helpful to me as well as I am sure to others here. Thank you.

Fantastic words, ur. Thanks for sharing that about yourself and your history. And I can tell you put time and thought into your posts, which I appreciate. I don't just skim them. I paste them into my journal and think about them throughout the day. And you have the best username here, so sometimes I just think about your name. Even days that I don't believe it, your persistence here makes me believe that someday I will feel worthy again.

That mirror metaphor really gives me a much clearer picture of what living in self-worth really looks like. I think I was maybe 30% there before BD. Since then I've been at 0-5%. Before BD, I did live much of my life like I wanted to, like I believed one should live there life. I failed with porn, and I also failed by needing others to know about my good qualities or good deeds. And that defeats the purpose of giving (time, work, goods, money, love, etc.).

That desire has always led to an internal dialogue within myself. One voice is the side that wants others (especially women, it seems) to know I'm volunteering here or there, or tutoring someone, etc. The other voice is Matthew 6:1-4.

Card, I've been reading your posts lately (I think a lot of us who have spouses who used porn have found them very helpful- so thank you for sharing - I know it must have been difficult). I remembered you posting a story about a high school girlfriend who broke up with you and how much that affected you (I apologize if I got the details wrong and it wasn't high school) and I see you have been with your wife since you were 19.

Since you've been an adult, have you ever been out on your own, and happy, while not in a relationship?

You have it right. Well there were almost two years between the HS breakup (that R only last led three months, but it was my first lost love so it still cut deep [relatively, lol]) and truly dating W. And I was very happy during those two years. I wasn't pursuing any R, and since I was a virgin by choice, I really wasn't chasing girls outside of an R, either. I was enjoying time with friends, focusing on school after an abysmal first semester of college, doing work/volunteering for a Christian student union on campus, getting into the spirit of the college athletic teams, playing lots of pickup basketball at the student activity center, etc. W was the one who pursued me for a few months before I committed.

For a few years during my M, the worst of the years for me (sex virtually non-existent, W taking any and all frustrations out on me), I wished that I had had more "on my own" time. I settled into the M, though, then fell back in love with W.

W asked me multiple times to go to the mall with her this morning, so I went. Just helped her pick out a couple of gifts. It was the first time she's asked me to do anything that had nothing to do with house, finances, D2 or a D2 handoff. Not reading much into it. I left early while she still had a couple of things to do

Also, we officially split finances today. It didn't bother me too much because that was in motion months ago.

At the mall, I was warm and friendly, but I don't think I pursued. I didn't offer any outward support like I did via text the last few days, just kept it light. I certainly didn't mention anything about the M or anything we talked about last week.

Card,

I just wanted to follow up on my question from yesterday. I'm glad to hear you had that period in your life, because that gives you a touchstone to get back to, a time in your life when you were happy and fulfilled without a relationship being involved.

Keep Moving Forward

raliced, thank you. I think that for the much of the last 8 or so years, I've had a mild-to-moderate case of "I want what I don't have" syndrome. For a while I was jealous of my friends who were still playing video games and going wherever they wanted all of the time. Then there was a period that felt suffocated because I didn't live next to a lake. Then there was a couple of years where I really wished I was more free to play more golf. Then I found snowboarding and couldn't stand the fact that I didn't live less than 1,000 miles from a decent mountain. And now of course, after neglecting my W for so long, I am hurt by the thought that she is not there for me and I can't be there for her. This is a cycle that I need to break forever. Treasure and be thankful for what I have. It's going to take work for me to treasure my current life, even though I know I have it better than most people in the world.

Hi Card 29

Yes, it's a pointless exercise wanting what you don't have. Unless it's a change you really want to make and you're gonna go for it.

Much better to work on thankfulness. I've been trying to do that recently - think of a few things each day that I'm thankful for that day...it's surprising how much there is. And it does help you feel lucky - kind of 'glass half full' rather than 'missing out'... :-)

Agreed, Toots. I will say that I wasn't a miserable person pre-BD. I was thankful for lots of things in my life. Since I was a kid I wanted the M life, and most of the time during my M, I was content with it. There were just always those times, especially early in snowboard season and early in golf/lake season when I wished I was more free. I don't know if there was ever an extended period when I wanted to snowboard or play golf more than I wanted to be married to W. Early after BD, I was in my own fog and thought I remembered wanting out of the M for 3 or 4 years. I think there were three or four years when I had fleeting thoughts of wanting out, but more often than not, I was thankful to have W.

But post BD, the urge to want my M when I can't have it at the moment has been incredibly strong, stronger than anything I've ever felt. I read through my journal (which I started the 1st of Sept) for the first time today. I forgot about how many good days I really did have early in the fall. Some of that was buoyed by hope with WAW being so early in the process, and I don't want to rely on that same type of hope (living in hope, as uR puts it) again. But after reading it I know I can get back there again.

I'll make a thankful list:

- Thankful for a happy, healthy D2
- Thankful I have family in town, even though there is some dysfunction right now
- Thankful for a free place to stay until I get my finances a little more stable. I would be fine on my own in an apt right now, but I'm saving at least $1500 a month at the moment.
- Thankful for the wood-burning fireplace/stove that is in my guest suite. It has really cheered me up at night. It took me a couple nights of practice, but I had my first really good fire last night.

Hey Card...still thinking on a nickname for you. Yea, I know, Im weird that way. LOL!

You sound better. Im glad.

Funny how much we want something when we cant have it, right?

Not saying you dont love your wife and really want your marriage, just an observation.

So, I like your thankful list. Its a good thing to do often.

I would try to let your w live with her choices. She wants to feel heard. She needs to see what she wants her life to look like.

I love a good fire...:)

I'll embrace the nickname, whatever it is

I've been tempted a couple of times to text WAW today, but I've been able to resist. Felt like texting that I had a good time at the mall (I did, and she warmed up, too). Wanted to ask if she found the rest of her gifts. And now something else has come up...BIL (my SIL's H) has a gravely ill father. They all live three hours away. WAW is supposed to go there for Christmas on Christmas day, then they are trekking to Nashville to meet extended family. I think BIL's father throws a wrench into the whole thing, and Im curious of WAW's thoughts. Whenever he passes, I will definitely go to the services. Assuming WAW isn't already out of town for Christmas, I imagine we would carpool together. We'll see how that all plays out. I'm more concerned about BIL as he is very close to his dad. I lost mine two years ago and know how hard it is. I'm not going to play the "I know how you feel" card.

Now, Christmas morning...last week, the same night WAW told me she wanted D, she said she wanted me to bring D2 to her apt first thing in the morning so she could have early morning Christmas with her parents. She said D2 deserves to have it with her parents (of course...she deserves it every year. She deserves to have every morning with her parents. But I digress...and no, I didn't say that). At the time, I was reluctant. I don't think I want to do it now. I don't think I'm playing a game when I say that this is a natural consequence of S/D. And it wouldn't be fair for D2 to wake up to a room full of presents around a Christmas tree and have to get immediately packed into a car and lugged across town. I'm not sure when or how, but I'm going to tell WAW we'll be over there after we do Christmas at my mom's house.

Im glad you didnt text her, C. You had a nice time...leave her with that thought.

As far as Christmas, do what is best for your daughter and for you.

We still have some loose ends financially. Accounts are now split, but all of the money is still in here. We tried to transfer some to mjne but have had difficulties.

I've also been thinking about other financial issues: she put down the down payment and bought her bed and D2's bed back when we were sharing finances. In fact, I cut back to the bare essentials due to her apt and extra expenses. When I go to move into my apt, I will have to spend all of that on my own. Shouldn't she owe me some money, especially with her $2,000 deposit being half mine? On top of that, we recently finished paying off her $36,000 car, but I still have $10,000 of debt on my car, which apparently she is expecting me to pay the rest by myself. I haven't brought any of this up to her because I didn't want to rock the boat any closer to D than I had to. If it actually gets to that point, I will need to address it. Neither of us want to go the lawyer route, because we don't enough enough assets to squabble over and don't want to waste that money on lawyers.

Yes, it would be fair that she pays back that kind of stuff, but let's put it back into the bigger picture. Would it help your sitch? If so, can you afford that she doesn't pay bac? Do you do it as a matter of principle or because you truly need the money? Any way in which it could help you to ask for a pay back, like making her face the reality of her choices or showing some fairness and self-respect? Have you checked if there's anything about this in DR? I can't recall on top of my head.

I guess you could put it in writing in some separation agreement for instance and see how she reacts? You could be the one that's surprised that she wouldn't want to pay back, as if it were the most natural thing in the world, which it is.

By the way, there are always financial losses and inequity in separations, as far as I can tell. I know that my W left a lot behind, almost everything that we paid together. Her parents paid for her move and new furniture and appliances, so it didn't matter to her. She just wanted out ASAP and to protect the cordiality, for the sake of the kids. Think of the state of mind of your WAW and remember that we have a natural tendencies to see unfairness as victims more than as perpetrators.

Not saying what you should do with this in particular. That's up to you.

You need to act from a place of strength, C, not fear. You cannot base your actions on worrying if she will get upset.

But you should also try to do what is right and fair. Because that's who you want to be, right?

Originally Posted By: Card29

I've also been thinking about other financial issues: she put down the down payment and bought her bed and D2's bed back when we were sharing finances. In fact, I cut back to the bare essentials due to her apt and extra expenses. When I go to move into my apt, I will have to spend all of that on my own. Shouldn't she owe me some money, especially with her $2,000 deposit being half mine? On top of that, we recently finished paying off her $36,000 car, but I still have $10,000 of debt on my car, which apparently she is expecting me to pay the rest by myself. I haven't brought any of this up to her because I didn't want to rock the boat any closer to D than I had to. If it actually gets to that point, I will need to address it. Neither of us want to go the lawyer route, because we don't enough enough assets to squabble over and don't want to waste that money on lawyers.

Hi Card - I always feel like I have to weigh on on the practical stuff. I'm not sure what state you live in but if you haven't already you should read up on the divorce law there.

For example, I live in California, and they basically add up all the marital assets and add up all the marital debts and split them equally (if it gets adversarial and ends up with a judge). So, in your example - regardless of the fact that you are the one taking your car - she would still be responsible for $5000 of the debt. You don't have to go down the route of going to court - but having a good idea of what might happen if you did is a good bargaining chip to settle things between the two of you. As to the deposit money- it depends on how nitpicky you want to get. Right now, as long as you are living comfortably - I would keep very good financial records (and make sure you archive any records you have from prior to the separation).

Also Card- your daughter is two, it is highly unlikely she will remember this Christmas, including if her parents are together when she opens presents, so don't get too angst ridden over the arrangements. Do whatever will give you the most joy that day - because that's what D2 will pick up on.

Thanks for weighing in. I'll probably let go of the deposit and beds, etc. I don't plan on spending much on any furniture I'll need, and you get your deposit back. But I don't think it's fair for me to be stuck with $10,000 of car debt, with everything else fairly equal, especially since she already makes 10K more per year than me, and about to be a lot more when she finishes her MBA (paid by work).

I'll cross the bridge if it gets there, though.

Struggling with some dysfunction at my mom's house. My 28 yr old sister has been living her for a couple of years. She has no job, no car, her friends are now married and busy, she can't use her degree. I don't know how happy she is, but she kind of depresses me even though I love her. But on top of that, she is very mean to our mom. She's constantly criticizing her, and my mom seems to put up with it. A couple of days ago, though, it boiled over and my mom snapped. I had only been here for a couple of days, so I hadn't talked to my sister yet about it. I kind of blew up on her after I walked into my mom screaming and crying.

Blah

Aouch, that sux. I've no experience with these situation but I'd suggest you apply some DB techniques to the problem. First, raising your voice makes you lose the argument. You're very level headed around here so use that. Second, kill them with kindness. Finally, don't put this problem on your shoulders. It's on the two of them. You can listen to both, be a safe space of validation, etc. but don't feel it's for you to make the relationship harmonious. You have plenty to deal with already!

Really struggling with PMA. Family is starting to arrive, so it's time to suck it up and attempt to be happy

Had a convo with WAW out of nowhere today. It started because she picked up on my frustration with the dogs. I told her I wasnt sure if I wanted to keep them if I'm going to be alone in an apt. She was really upset. I told her I wasn't making a decision right now. She said, "So if I divorce you, you're getting rid of the dogs?" I told her that it wasn't like that, its not an ultimatum. She said, "I don't understand why you wouldn't want to at least try to fix the things that are causing the problems. Why cant you at least try?" I couldnt help but chuckle, since that is exactly our M sitch, and what I said to her.

She asked why I laughed, so I told her. And that stared another terrible R talk. I went through the same pointless arguing about why we could fix it, but tried to validate how she felt, and voice that I knew she was not interested in or had the energy to work on it "right now". She said, "You keep saying 'right now' like I'm going to change my mind." It really went downhill from there. She said she was dead in our M, she's completely done. Then she told me she's dating. I think I need to really start focusing on myself. I should have the whole time, and I did for a while. And I guess I can still leave the hope door open. But it's going to have to be an open door that I try to never think about.

Worst Christmas Eve ever lol

When I got back to the large family gathering, an aunt picked up on my pain. Took me to a bedroom and talked to me. I cried like I haven't cried in months. That really helped me kind of enjoy the rest of the night. I know tomorrow will be a cold reality, but tonight I feel half okay. I feel guilty for letting that convo happen, though. It completely ruined WAW's night, I'm sure, and she's sitting there alone. I guess she could confide in her BF or whatever is going on

Originally Posted By: Card29

I feel guilty for letting that convo happen, though. It completely ruined WAW's night, I'm sure, and she's sitting there alone. I guess she could confide in her BF or whatever is going on

I wouldnt feel guilty for ruining her night. She had a part in that.

I will say that you kind of walked right into that and it didnt serve you well.

They need to feel heard. Your words told her that you didnt.

Hop on off the ride, C. Leave her to it. You get back to you and your daughter.

She told me she felt like a sexual object the whole time. I had no idea. I wasn't that demanding. I put up with months without sex. I didn't know why she didn't want to. I feel so awful about myself that I did that to my W

C, those are her feelings so they are valid to her. But understand that you did the best you could with the knowledge and tools at the time. Had you known better, you would have done better.

So, you need to first and foremost forgive yourself. You know the things you need to work on and you are doing that.

You cannot undo the past. It's that you learn from it that matters. It's what you do moving forward that matters.

Try to enjoy this holiday with your child. Make new memories. Do new things.

Be kind to yourself, C. You matter, too.

Happy holidays!

Thanks for your thoughts and your time, uR

Happy Holidays

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

Hey Card. I wanted to talk with you about a few things.

The first is that I get why you feel as you do about yourself. The person you loved and trusted most in the world, doesnt want to be with you at this time.

The thing about that is this. Our worth should not come from others. We get to define it. Now thats not to say that others feelings towards us dont matter. They do.

^^^Good stuff!!

Others feelings only matter b/c how they treat us, matters. Sometimes we need them, as with a child who literally NEEDS their parent.

But we must not, cannot let others views of us DEFINE us. And once we are no longer children, we must lose the "need" for others approval. Their "data" about is, is not valid. Thus, it can be discarded.

By way of analogy, here's a true story. A homeless man lived on a grate in my city and I'd pass him nearly every morning on my way to work at a law firm. For some reason, that homeless man seemed to HATE me. He'd scream the most vile (almost funny) things at me.

I began to wonder what triggered this response in him. I looked at my conservative "lawyer outfit" and figured it was pretty much standard, I'm not tall or large so I could not have "intimidated" him....point is, I really racked my brain wondering about MYSELF...

one day my boss and I walked by the guy and he again yelled that obscenity at me in front of my boss!! My boss had a great (previously unknown to me) sense of humor and turned to me and said "is that your old boyfriend?"

It suddenly dawned on me that the homeless man on the street grate screaming at me, literally had nothing to do with me. I LET him take up space in my brain...but His "Data" about me was not true.

I'm NOT who he believes I am. Thus, his words no longer had any effect on me. At least nothing negative, b/c I did begin to think the whole thing was hilarious.

You need to ask yourself sometime, if you REALLY are "ugly", "stupid, incompetent, etc" or DESERVING of such treatment...OR any of the odd negative thoughts crossing your mind.

When you are in a healthy OBJECTIVE frame of mind, I'm sure just by how articulate you are here, that you will see the data you are looking at, is NOT real.

It's fear, it's painful EMOTIONS you FEEL, and those are feelings, not factual realities.

Instead of waiting to FEEL better and then to behave differently,

behave differently and MAKE YOURSELF FEEL better. Honestly, the "outside in" can work!

Just as we must act in alignment with our goals, and NOT how we feel at a given moment, we must also see ourselves in alignment with reality and NOT in ways that simply reflect how we feel.

Your w suffers from depression, right? So her FEELINGS determine how her days go.

But her feelings were not in alignment with reality.

Don't fall prey to the same trap.

Make sense?

My mother was an alcoholic. I couldnt do anything right in her eyes. I tried my whole life to get her to like me.

I married a man who was controlling and condescending.

I allowed both of them to make me feel less than.

This^^ is so sad. Yet I hope/believe that knowing this,^^ seeing it, is empowering.

Card, you can CHOOSE to see yourself in alignment with reality , or with however you feel at a given moment.

Hasn't your family, childhood and your wife's depression already polluted enough of your life? You can stop allowing that. It's truly, all up to YOU.

I realized that they were the mirrors I used to reflect back what they saw about me.

The thing is that they were both broken. So what was reflected back, wasnt true.

So, I needed to get new mirrors.

Be the person you choose to be. Be that person every day. Some days you make it, some you dont. But that should always be the goal.

The other thing is that we have no idea what the future holds. None. Anythiing could happen. You never would have forseen this, right?

That's just defeating thinking.

--
--
About being there for her. I know that you worry that since you werent there for her the last few years, that you need to show her you are now.

I feel this way. She is telling you she doesnt want to be married. She needs you to hear that. You dont have to like it. But you do have to hear it.

FOR NOW, back the heck off. Seriously. And the only way to do that successfully is to detach

and the only way I know how to detach is to GAL....for real...

I'll post more later. Back off, and trust this process....

You can be kind and compassionate without pursuing. You also need to have her live in the natural consequences of her actions. That doesnt mean you cause that, just that you allow it to unfold.

I know you are concerned about her. But maybe she doesnt get the help she needs because she gets it from you.

When I was depressed, as long as I had someone listen to me, I didnt really need to do the work. I poured my stuff out. They told me what they thought I wanted to hear and then I was good for a bit.

This doesnt mean you should be nasty. You should be the kind of person you want to be.

^^^
THIS is good stuff!!!

Thank you, 25, for stopping by. I know its really soon after my latest serious crash, but I have felt really, really good for a lot of today. And it's happening just like uR and others have said it needs to happen. I'm letting go of her. I'm forgiving myself, because I did not intend to cause pain, I did the best with the knowledge I had, I have always wanted to be a good H above all else. I am starting to truly forgive myself. It's one day, but it was a good day. It really helped that my sister, the one I'm really close to, is in town (she currently lives in LA, about 2500 miles away). She always gives me such a boost.

I also think getting such direct, definite words from WAW about the end of our M, as painful as it's been to hear, has let me finally begin to move on to the final stage of grief: acceptance. I know I should have considered myself "dead" months ago and focused on myself, but I didnt. And that's okay. I'm doing it now. I still love WAW. I'm not slamming the door closed on hope or possibility. But I'm no longer standing obsessively by the door. I'm not leaving splinters of overly hopeful thoughts in my mind anymore ("she's not interested in the M right now", and then hang all of my heart on the hopeful temporariness of it). She's not interested in the M. Period. I will GAL, focus on myself, focus on D2, focus on friends and family, let go of W, respect her wishes for herself, and IF something changes with her (not expecting it or hoping for it anymore), I will address it then.

I believe God is at work. In my sitch, in my heart, and in your hearts. You are very special people.

FOR NOW, back the heck off. Seriously. And the only way to do that successfully is to detach

and the only way I know how to detach is to GAL ... for real ...

Back off, and trust this process ...

I think I need to tattoo this somewhere. For the moment I'll just copy it to my thread.

Card29 - I though of you when I read this post by Pink17. I know you struggle with not pursuing, you feel you have to be super-nice, apologize, ask your W if she needs help, follow up with a "I had a good time" text, etc.

This is what "not pursuing" looks like. And it seems to work.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520244#Post2520244

Thanks for sharing that. And thank you for thinking of me. There is so much to learn from in that story. I also found it amusing that Pink's H's OW is in Paris. That is where my W was when she decided to leave me. City of Romance my ***!!! lol

I have felt amazing for about 2 days now, ever since I had that talk with WAW on Christmas eve night and then had a huge cry on my aunt's shoulder. I think I have been resisting the acceptance stage of grief for a long time, and now I am really, truly letting go and accepting what is happening. It doesn't mean I've shut the door. I am not even thinking about hope. I am just living, continuing to work on myself. And this time there is no doubt that the work is for me, my future, and D2.

There has also been a development. My sister (not the one that has been acting crazy) is trying to set me up with her best friend. She recently broke up with her BF of 5 years because he couldn't commit to M. My sis knows I'm in no hurry (heck, I'm still married). Her friend is only one week removed from that R and doesnt seem to be in any place to start another serious R. I told my sister that of course I'm interested in a possibility there, but Im not pursuing anything at the moment. But it has been tempting to think about. She is very special, and there must be something wrong with her xBF for not committing to her. I talked to sis about that on Christmas day, and I found it interesting but was prepared to table it for some time down the road, if it ever came up again. Dot dot dot...

So yesterday, my S and BIL say they're going to go hang out after dinner, if I wanted to join. Sure! They were going bowling. So we make plans. Last minute, I find out she also invited her best friend. It was just my sister, my BIL, sister's best friend, and me. What is this, a double date? I was a little uncomfortable, and very nervous. On one hand, I am still married, even though I expect D papers to be filed any day now. On the other, if I did have to move on to someone new someday, I honestly don't think I could pick a better woman. So I didn't want to screw up a "first date", you know? It wasnt a date, but it kind of felt like it.

We had fun, we ended up getting drunk at a bar and dancing for several hours. Nothing happened physically between me and the friend, although we did dance some (fun dancing, not really physical dancing). Out of nowhere towards the end of the night, she drunkenly told me she didn't see us together. I just said okay, even though I had never mentioned a word of anything like that to her. Sis must have been in her ear! So I let it go and moved on with the night. At the end of the night, after her friend passed out back at our house, I told sis what she told me (sis is hoping for this thing to work out more than anyone). She said, "she was drunk, and she just broke up with her BF. She's already rejected 3 dates. She just needs some time." I let it go and enjoyed the remainder of my night hanging out with BIL.

This morning, apparently my sister told her friend what she (friend) told me last night. The friend approached me this morning and said she didn't mean it, but right now she doesn't see being with anyone ever again (that's the pain talking).

So that's that whole weird sitch that happened yesterday. I really didn't pursue any of that. I did have fun. It did convince me that I will be fine regardless of what happens with WAW, this friend, or anyone else.

Well Im expecting that the D process will begin sometime in the next couple of weeks. I'm obviously not happy to be officially entering a D, but I am still feeling pretty decent. I really do think I pre-processed a lot more than I thought. Once I accepted what was happening, it only took 2-3 days of hardcore grieving to feel how I do now, which is happier and more peaceful than at any other time post-BD.

Here is a question: what is the opinion of a FB announcement? I'd say 90% of my friends and distant family know about my sitch now. Ive never put anything on there about this. Should I just let people continue finding of naturally? If I did post, how might that be worded? I was thinking about that but it gets tricky. I don't want to place blame, but I also don't want to act like it's mutual. That makes me lean towards not posting.

I am against posting anything on Facebook. I felt the people in my life closest to me would find out and anyone else didn't really matter. I would stay away from going that route.

That is the direction I'm leaning. I think everyone that really needs to know knows by now. I had one final "reveal" to some extended family at Christmas. Whatever people in that branch of my family that weren't there will surely learn by word of mouth now.

I post on FB against vet advice. I don't feel like emotion is a bad thing, and I don't give a fig what gets back to BF. I'm an open person by nature and it's not something I feel needs to change.

That said, I limit what I say to whom. I have a close trusted friend's filter, that I whine to when my PMA is low, and everyone else (including mutual friends) get the general updates and the "I so liked my old life, but I'm also happy with where I landed" posts.

BF has me blocked on FB anyway, and for now I blocked all the mutual friends that might post info I can't handle. I saw pics not too far back and my emotional reaction wasn't pretty.

That's my two cents.

Little, if it worked for you, well, that's fine. Not sure that "not" posting would have hurt you an iota, either.

For me, it's seems like by posting it, I'd make a very private, sometimes evolving matter, much more public than needed.

In some cases, maybe it even cements things.

And for sure it has often looked like an advertisement that say "Hey, I'm NOW available!!"

For instance, An old boyfriend of mine posted on FB and then called me to tell me his wife and he were getting a divorce and he "wanted [me] to know from [him] before I heard it elsewhere..." (???)

That's sort of hilarious. I mean, I have NOT kept in touch with him for 25+ years...
Nor would ANY of my friends pick up the phone to say "guess who is now ready to date??" We had fallen out of touch long ago. To me, his comments were needy and sad and very obvious. (For the record, I referred him HERE to DB land and I know he at least read the first chapter).

IF you, Card, feel the "need" to post on FB, what is it you'd say, and why? I mean, really ask yourself why.

And what's wrong with just removing the marital status altogether?
Is it my imagination or do you feel the need to be IN a relationship soon, with anyone?

I cannot help but feel a sense of urgency in you that I don't think is very reflective or helpful, in the long run. Though I concede that in the short run, it sure can feel good.

Good luck!

As far as FB (which I'm leaning towards not doing), I would not intend it to be an "available" sign in any respect. I just wanted to avoid any further confusion, especially with some of my out-of-town friends with whom I haven't been very close in 2-3 years. I guess the root of my motivation was this: I feared them seeing something in the coming months IF I'm in a new R, and them just wondering "wtf?"

I could go through my FB friends list and there is not a single available woman on it that would interest me. I'm not looking for the first R I can find (I'm not really looking for one at all). It sounds exhausting right now lol. I wasn't even thinking about it until this thing with my sister's friend popped up. But I've been tempted to dream not just because she is the exact type of woman I would like to meet someday, but because she's best friends with my sister, who I'm very close to. I've also been developing a much closer relationship with my BIL, who is also good friends with this girl. So I can't help but imagine what kind of dynamic our family could have if it actually worked out. My entire family already loves her. Our personalities mesh really well. My sister told me that back when news of my sitch with WAW first broke, over the summer, before anyone ever knew there was a problem with her friend's R, our mom, BIL's mom, some of her other friends and my grandmother all said something to the effect of, "I wish Card and BFF could be together. They are perfect." This really surprised me because I've never really hung out with her, definitely never flirted with her or anything like that. I've just exchanged small talk with her at family gatherings. But the people that new both of us could see what I'm seeing now, how similar we are (personalities, dreams, beliefs).

I'd never given her a second's thought until 4 days ago when S told me everything about her and what happened in her sitch. So I'm a little anxious about her, for several reasons, as far as I can tell:

- I believe I could mesh with many different personality types, but hers is the most natural for me. It's what I thought of when I was just daydreaming one day over the fall.

- Okay, I could find her personality, beliefs, etc. any time in the future. Right. But she's my close S's best friend, and IF it worked out, it could be really amazing. They already refer to each other as "sisters separated at birth". It's not a requirement for me to be joyful, but I'll never find this characteristic in another woman, one who is already practically part of our family.

- She already knows and LOVES D2. I'd never really paid attention before, but every time we've been around her, she sits down with D2 and plays with her. She wants more kids of her own (and so do I, ideally), but I feel like she would welcome being more than just a step-mom to D2. She would embrace her, which is something I fear a future new W might not do.

- She is already being courted by a handful of guys. I have not pursued her for one second, to this point. But she is definitely a "catch", so I kind of feel anxious that she could be gone before I ever had a shot. (Meanwhile, my brain knows she's even further from being ready for another serious R than I am, since I've been processing this for 5-6 months while she's barely a week removed from the end of a 5-year R).

- She knows my sitch, and given that, two interesting things happened Friday night: She told me that WAW is crazy, and she flirted with me a lot (even though she also told me she didn't see us together). Keep in mind, she started the night tipsy, was quickly downgraded to drunk, and ended the night passed out. Plus it was probably the first night since she ended her R that she had some fun. So I'm not putting too much stock into the flirting OR the "rejection". But given that, we had a LOT of fun Friday night, even though she doesn't remember much of it. I have been so hurt for so long, and for one night, I was swept up. Thankfully nothing besides dancing and laughing happened, but it was the most fun I've had since BD, not even close.

- I'm guessing some of these emotions are a typical "rebound". I can see a possible R with a great candidate, and it feels good. I'm not a (complete) fool lol. I know I'm not in the smartest state of mind. I'm sure if I give it a few weeks, I could approach it from a more cerebral viewpoint. I had some butterflies for my salsa dance instructor for a couple of weeks in Sept. I left those alone, and now I just laugh at myself about it.

So there you go, 25yearsmlc. There is the current state of my heart on a silver platter! Dissect away, please

For the record, here is my current "plan" regarding these topics:

- Not posting anything to FB. Won't even consider it again until D is finalized. Does a relationship status change show up in your news feed?

- Not pursuing or contacting S's friend until my heart calms down (few weeks? few months?) and I see what is really going down with WAW. But the D is so eminent that I could be served papers right now and I don't think my emotion would change at all. I can't believe how different I feel after just 4 days from my last breakdown.

Ok, Card, I am a straight shooter so here are my thoughts. Please take them with the mindset that I care about you.

As far as facebook..Im thinking that if there are out of town friends who you havent been close to in 2 or 3 years and they arent in touch with you to know, I wouldnt be worried about them.

For me, the people who mattered in my life, knew what was going on as much as I told them. Anyone else, would find out when they did.

I dont really like having my life play out on FB, but, that's just me.

I think you want to set the record straight.

So, here's my question to you. Who does Card want to be?

As far as your sister's friend. I am confused. You were pretty raw the other day about your marriage.

In fairness to yourself and to anyone else, you need to finish your stuff, mourn the end of your marriage and figure yourself out before you should even think about another relationship.

I feel that people should be alone in order to do that. Be good with yourself. Find happiness within. People should enhance our joy not define it.

Something else to think about. If you do eventually see this woman..every argument, everything that happens within the relationship, could potentially be shared with your sister and effect the friendship in some way.

Card, get through this. Find you. Let your life unfold as it is supposed to. Plenty of time for all of that.

It matters that you stood. It matters that you become your best self.

If it is meant to be, it will be.

Card,

You've gotten great advice. From reading the last few posts on this thread, I feel like you are in hurry up offense mode. And that's not always a good thing.

In regards to FB, I just say no. I'm an extremely private person by nature (I didn't tell anyone when I got married, waited 5 months to tell peeps I was expecting and the 2 friends that I needed some help from knew I was S.). That being said, I have posted that life has been kind of challenging over the last months and it's great to have good friends and family. That's all. I mostly post funny stuff about my kids so I've always felt no one needs to hear me air my laundry. Same for my blog. I suppose it's a personal preference.

In regards to dating again, only you can decide. However, what's the big hurry with your S's friend. She's recently removed from a long time R and you are still healing. Slow your roll! Just my 10 cents:-)

Let things transpire as they should. Hang in there!

I love it when you preface you words with something to the effect of "I say all of this out of love". That's when I know I'm going to hear something real!

Once I wrote out my reason for wanting to post to FB, the fear left me. If they are surprised by a new R down the road, they can call me and ask what's going on if they want.

I have been wondering what's going on with my sudden change of emotion. I think it is a combination of finally embracing acceptance of the death of my M, and some rebound emotions with S's friend. But it has more to do with my stage of grief, at least I believe. I was at peace on Friday like I hadn't felt in 6-7 months, and that was before S said anything about her friend. I've never dealt with this stuff before, but I feel like I had processed everything for all of that time, all that was left to do was be at peace with it. I never numbed my pain with alcohol, meds, other women, etc. And WAW was so blunt on Christmas Eve night, there is just no doubt where this is headed anymore. It doesn't mean it's impossible in the future, and while I still have the door open for a future M with WAW, I'm not waiting nervously by that door anymore.

I know this is a very sudden change, but I'm honestly pouring out my heart like I normally do. On Christmas Eve night, I was settling back into DB, willing to be patient for a possible change of heart in WAW. Then WAW emphatically told me its over, told me she's already moving on to others. I went back to our family gathering and cried on my aunt's shoulder. She lost her H to a heart attack three years ago. She told me about her grieving process, and told me that I am grieving a loss just like her. Everything she said just resonated so deeply. I have cried a lot since BD, but never as freely and released as I did then. And as soon as I stopped crying, I felt so relieved, so peaceful. I had fun the rest of the night with all of the little ones running around. I woke up Friday feeling great. Then everything with S's friend started. I have felt better and better everyday. Now I am playing music and singing like I haven't done in months. I feel like myself for the first time since BD

I am a joyful person, or at least I was prior to these 6+ months. I don't feel like I need S's friend or anyone else to make me happy. I love so many things about life. I feel it all flowing back into my heart. I am trying to gauge how S's friend is affecting me. She shares some qualities with me that I've surpressed for the 10 years I have been with WAW. For example, dancing. I love dancing. WAW hates it. It's just not her thing. So we'd never go anywhere where dancing was even possible. The only time was weddings, and she pretty much forbid me from dancing without her (and of course she wouldn't dance with me), even though I wasn't trying to dance with other women. So maybe some of my feelings are liberation by hanging out with someone that is more like me? I don't know. I think I just need to chill for a while and let my heart sort itself out.

Like I said, I feel like I've been mourning my M for 6 months. I've been alone, I've focused on myself - my flaws and strengths. Of course I have had plenty of pursuit failures. I do NOT think I'm ready for a new R today. A week ago, if you'd asked me when I thought I would potentially be ready for a new R post-WAW, I would have maybe said 10-18 months, or something. Now I feel like my readiness timeline could be measured in weeks. I never felt like I would be ready for a new R as soon as a D was finalized, but now I don't know! I have changed so much in 5 days, I know I just need to chill and let this play out.

The good news is that my personal 180's have been going so amazingly well. I have not looked at porn in months, the longest streak since I first saw porn. It's not even a temptation anymore. I feel so sexually healthy, now. I feel like that is only going to get better and better the further removed I get from the hollowness of porn. I'm also listening better at work, even with my "not so favorite" people. I have been finding plenty of chances to validate and empathize. I have also avoided some Mr Nice Guy tendancies. I need to re-read that book, though. It's been a while since I picked it up.

Lastly, about the dynamic of complicating their friendship with an R...I have thougt about that. Obviously it's up to S's friend IF I approach her in the future to make that decision. It's definitely something to consider. But there are a few things that have made me think the risk of catastrophe isn't too high. Neither S nor I are drama-seekers, and if half of what people tell me about S's friend is true, neither is she. I know we would have issues, just like any R. But I know I could handle my part. And if her desire for a lifelong M is true, I would think she would be receptive to some of the expertise I have been exposed to during these trying months. Even with all of that, of course there would be a risk of things going south and messing things up with her and S. But to me, the risk is worth the potential benefits. ALL THAT SAID - that is getting way ahead of everything lol. She hasn't even agreed to a date, which I am weeks away from asking, if I ask at all.

Georgiabelle, slow my roll I must.

Ok, you have provided me with the nickname I have been looking for with the dancing....But I am torn between Fred and Travolta. Hee hee.

You are grieving the end of your marriage. You have to go through all the steps or they come back around to bite you.

Most times, when we go through this, we begin to take the rose colored glasses off regarding our spouse and our marriage. We realize there were things that werent good. It is important, though, that we are really totally honest with ourselves as to what is true and what isnt. Because that is information we can use moving forward. No matter what this all leads to.

Use this time wisely, my friend. No need to make any decisions today. You can move forward and keep the door cracked or close it completely. But make that decision from a place of strength.

Keep walking your path. Keep looking within. And yea, slow the heck down some. Dont get ahead of yourself. Just sayin.....;)

Thanks, uR. I love that you reminded me to use my time wisely. I used to think that meant to use the time wisely in order to save my M. Now I see it as using time wisely to transform myself into who I really am, who I really want to be. And I could see how rushing into an R right now would not only be unfair to myself and the R partner, it would jeopardize a potential future with them, and it might not let me finish my grieving process naturally.

I get the travolta reference, but what do you mean by Fred? Freddy Mercury? Because I love me some Freddy Mercury lol. whatever you come up with, I'm flattered

Fred Astair, dude, Fred Astair. Look it up.

I love Freddy Mercury, too, but, it was Astair I was referring to. LOL!

Ah I see. Well, let me clarify...I LIKE dancing. I never said I was very good at it!! Maybe that's what would make the nickname work, though

What do you think of my sudden change in heart? It's not that I don't want the M to reconcile the WAW. I am just so suddenly at peace with the sitch, it has shocked me. I thought it would take months to get here. What do you think of me theory that I had processed most of it over the last 6 months, all that was left was acceptance?

I think you have made your FB decision by now, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents as that was something I struggled a bit with. My XH and I posted lovey dovey stuff to each other and have tons of pics on both of ours and I really struggled with how to handle it, but I just decided that it wasn't FB appropriate to announce a D. I privately messaged a few very close personal friends, apprising them of the situation, mostly to ask for their prayers and help in keeping me sane as I went through the process, but never publicly put anything out there. I did change my marital status once the D was final, which I know XH did as well, but I figure if someone wants to know they will ask and if they don't, they won't. It isn't worth all the comments and any negativity that might come from it to just throw it out there, FB style, but that is just my opinion. LOL

I am desperately hoping to get to that "at peace" place that you mentioned above. I have good days...days where I am ok...but mostly I just feel a sadness.

Originally Posted By: Card29

What do you think of my sudden change in heart? It's not that I don't want the M to reconcile the WAW. I am just so suddenly at peace with the sitch, it has shocked me. I thought it would take months to get here. What do you think of me theory that I had processed most of it over the last 6 months, all that was left was acceptance?

Hi, just saw this and will share what I think-this isn't a linear process. We usually revisit each of the stages several times but each time it gets easier to move forward.

Enjoy where you are right now, today, in this moment. What's that saying? Accept the past, enjoy the present, embrace the future. My addition to that would be, without judgment.

Best!

labug, thanks for stopping by. That is exactly where I am. The only thing I'm wary of is falling too quickly for S's friend, especially since she hasn't even expressed interest outside of a drunken state (neither have I, for the record). I don't think infatuation with a new woman is what I need at the moment.

So does this bring clarity to how quickly a spouse might fall into the affair trap?

Or is this tit for tat?

Or wanting to make up for something missing in you.

You listed many reasons not to get involved with someone at this time. Heed them.

Freddy, we all walk this in our own way. I do agree with my friend, Labug, though, in that we go through the stages and back around and through again.

Having said that, I have seen where something happens, like the talk you had with your wife at Christmas, and it sometimes affects us like a switch has been turned off.

Here's the thing. There is no shortcut through this. And you dont want there to be. Each and every step is important in order to come through the other side whole.

Perhaps you have come to a place of acceptance of what is. That isnt a bad thing at all.

Im thinking that you having spent time with your sister's friend and having seen some things about her which you find attractive has allowed you to let go some more.

I will say this. I have been here a long time. I have seen people get involved with others way before they are ready. Most of the time, it doesnt end well.

You have plenty of time for all of that, Freddy. Trust this process.

You are right where you are supposed to be. Go with it.

I talked to one of the guys in the office about everything today, told him I'm finally at peace with what is happening, even though I don't want it to. I told him about S's friend. He said I should get on eharmony and started dating and hooking up wit as many people as possible. It reminded me how different we are lol. I am definitely not going that route. He did have some wise advice when I told him I'm not interested in "hooking up" with S's friend, but rather think she could be someone Id want to be serious with. He said steer clear for now if that's what I want with her, that she's not ready at all for that if she's just out of a 5 year R.

Freddy, you know what the right thing to do is. I know it all sounds attractive..thinking about seeing this woman and all. But the truth is that neither of you are ready for that now. Leave it go for the time being.

Finish your stuff. Let her finish hers. If in the future it is meant to be, it will be.

You keep working on you.

Wishing you a wonderful new year, sweetie...filled with peace and the knowledge that you are right where you are supposed to be.

You're getting great support from uR, stick with it.

I wanted to explain this a bit more:

So does this bring clarity to how quickly a spouse might fall into the affair trap?

I don't say that to give anyone a free pass on choices made. I do however think it opens us up to learn more about us. We start making excuses for why it would be OK to get into this R knowing full well it may not be the right time or the right person. At the same time we can't understand how the WA could ever do that.

But it feels. so. good, that scratching of the itch. Those brain chemicals work on everyone.

Good luck, you can do this.

I think God flipped the switch in my heart a few days ago. I believe that now. Because if one week sooner I heard the news I just now got, I may have jumped off of a bridge. I just spoke with WAW. She has been in an affair for 7 months with a married man. He ended it two weeks ago. She confessed everything to me. He was from her MBA program

Right now I'm kind of stunned and numb.

I'm stunned at how textbook she has been:

- 7 year itch CHECK (1 day after 7 yr anniversary)
- BD was immediately after her international seminar trip to Paris. Everyone said she must have started an A there. CHECK Her A started physically there
- affair lasts ~6 months CHECK
- when she told me she was going to date in Oct, you guys said she was probably trying to let me down easy CHECK

Sorry to hear that Card. I would avoid against any rash decisions. Sit on that new info for a few days and see how you feel about it then. I too received 'new' info about a month ago and was stunned, but it didn't destroy me like it probably would have mos ago. I found that after a couple weeks went by, I felt differently than I did when first hearing the info.

Stay strong Card. This is the time to really show your changes. I'm sure you will experience a wide range of emotions and actions by WAW. Glad to hear you're in a better place. I swear it's like the WAS knows when the LBS starts letting go (maybe not completely)

You can say that about a wide range of emotions. I'm sad for her, because she must feel like dirt about herself (that's what she's projecting). I'm kind of pissed (I'm sure that will increase. I'm disgusted...now I know she lost her weight for him, got her apt and new bed for him. I asked if he was around D2. She said he met them at a park once or twice. I hate the fact that he interacted with D2.

I'm just so glad I had my change of heart last week

Some thoughts that have entered my head:

- She had sex with me after starting with him. F***. And she was almost certainly thinking of him because she was so different the last couple of times we were together.

- Her new clique is almost certainly in on this. She started hanging out with them around the time this started. Oh, did I mention they all work at a religious publisher? Cool people there

- She lied to me soooo much over the last 7 months. I mean she went out of her way to lie to me most of the time. It wasn't like I was catching suspicious things. She would tell me about guys that flirted with her who she turned down. Why?

- Why did she go to the gym with me all of those times? I was there motivating her to workout...so she could be more attractive for her affair partner. Sickening

- Explains why she stopped going to church with me

- I was numb during the phone call earlier, but she actually tried to throw the porn card at me (I was not arguing or being venomous at all)! That is really sad that she tried to deflect her guilt with that. I hate porn as much as anyone, but it's not even the same universe

- she also said, "If it makes you feel any better, it wasn't just a fling. It was a very meaningful R." I didn't say a word. But my thoughts now are, "It doesn't make a difference to me. And yes, it was a fling. It was the definition of a fling. It ended as soon as his chemicals ran out, a textbook length of 6-7 months"

- This is the first time I have felt like I don't want to reconcile

- This puts the thing with S's friend in perspective. I know for sure that I'm not ready right now

I know some might be rolling their eyes because almost everyone here has dealt with these thoughts. I'm just trying to process this

Sorry to hear, Card29. Very sorry.

I agree with you: it's a textbook case. You can add her recent bad mood to the tally (breakup). By the way, five years ago when my W confessed her first A, it was her first step to asking me for reconciliation. Also, expect many more "discoveries" when you look back at what she did and said in the last seven months.

I agree with T0324: It's like WAS know when LBS turn around. It puts you in a good place to consider all options calmly.

I agree with Tarheel. Let it sink. Sit on it for a few weeks.

Card. So sorry to hear your news. Very difficult for you to deal with but as others have said take your time You seem so strong at the moment and use that Take care. Rd

Card, I'm not rolling my eyes. There's a script for LBS processing as much as there is for an A. Roll with it as best you can.

A while back I posted something Labug shared on her thread about saving yourself vs saving the M. I'll try to dig it up for you. I find it a tremendously helpful reminder.

I'd also like to direct your attention to the timely and spot on message you left for me last night. (Don't you love it when people throw your own words back at you!!) this cr@ppy experience is God prepping you for the future He has planned for you. Use it wisely.

Card that is terrible news and so terrible her "If it makes you feel better" statement. It is incredible what inconsiderate things our WASs say to us. I know it's awful pain and completely not right. Please take care.

Maybell, I did actually revisit your thread this morning and chuckled at what i wrote, just the irony of it. I wrote that about 3 hours before she caled me. This all has proven to me that everything happens for a reason. I do believe for the first time that I'm trying to save myself and D2, not our M. i know I need a lot more processing time to know what I want to do with the M. Plus, she hasn't indicated anything contrary to her stance that she doesn't want to reconcile. I know that could change, especially since I know she's following the wayward script, but not an ounce of my heart is hanging on her decision anymore

New year, new information, new attitude.

You're on a roll Card. You can handle it.

Mozza, you are dead on the nail about the breakup explaining her crappy behavior a couple of weeks ago. Treated me and our realtor like crap, and she slept for like 14 hours a day for those few days

Thanks, OldDog. I do believe I can handle this. I do believe I can forgive her. I don't know if I could ever lay down next to her again, but that's not for me to figure out today. Today I'm going snowboarding for the first time this year

Dude, we are almost BD brothers (my bd was 6/8/14) and I am watching your developments daily (along with sending of positive energy and thoughts). I also, for the first time after the BD am beginning to question, weather I would even like my W back. I mean, she has done so much against me and now my eyes are opening to the fact that my M was not ok either. I was not happy in my M, and I see that now, and somewhere along the way I forgot about me in the relationship, my needs, my wants, I was too busy fixing things for her. Well, no more, my turn now!

There you go, Vapo. I still do believe almost all of our M's are limitlessly salvageable, if both parties are willing. To this point, WAW was the unwilling one. It might be both of us now. I'm not going to spend too much deep thought on it right now. I've learned quite a bit about processing pain over the last few months, and I know I need time more than anything

It's probably just curiosity but how did the call happen? Was it a Happy New Year call and then she brought it up? Was it a long call full of explanations or a short announcement? Did you call or did she call? I find the timing really strange. In any case, it ended 2014 on these boards � la Top Gear: "And on this bombshell..."

lol, Mozza

Well a few days ago I texted her that I was ready to talk about what we're doing going forward, that I had processed a lot in a few days, etc. last night she texted if I wanted to talk then. I said no, not tonight. She said she wanted to "clear the air". So I went off to a bedroom and called her. We talked for maybe 15 minutes. She told me, I asked her a few questions. She answered everything. Was she honest? Who knows. We texted a little afterwards with more questions.

Oh and today she is still trying to balance out the guilt by bringing up my failures (porn, sleeping on the couch). I'm not buying it. ive owned my mistakes, I have forgiven myself, I am doing everything I can to make sure I don't commit them again, in any future R. That said, NOTHING I did warranted her sleeping with another man for 7 months, including while she was still intimate with me.

My response to her was much shorter than that, btw. I gave her a sarcastic "Yeah, they basically cancel out". I don't want to fight with her, though, so I will avoid passive aggressive stuff like that going forward

So that's why your porn consumption was cheating a few weeks ago! She was setting up the stage for this conversation. Unless she had made clear all these years that porn is cheating? I know some people are like this, but considering that porn is the #1 content seen on the web, it's more likely that most people don't see it as such. I'd be very very surprised that your W herself has never watched it over all these years, especially if your sex life was limited.

All of this to say that you have the right attitude to take a little distance now that things are clearer, but also new. She's apparently trying to be excused for her behavior and silence is likely to be your strongest reply.

Mozza, really? I've tried a couple of times -- it's so gross and dehumanizing! Why would you assume women enjoy it if we aren't getting sex?

I don't want to be a prude, but yeah, it's a kind of cheating. I could tell in bed when my H had spent time with it because the sex was unsatisfying and impersonal. Blech.

I think she felt like it was kind of cheating, but nothing close to actually being intimate with someone else. I mean, she knew I struggled with porn for the first 4 years together. She would be mad for a few days then would be okay. She would not have done that had I been having sex with other women. im not excusing my porn behavior. But it is apples and oranges.

The worst thought of everything is that she had sex with me a couple days after she did with him. So freaking disgusting. I feel like I should get checked for an STD