Four months in and I'm only now starting my 2nd thread
The gift of time . . .At the end of my last thread, Maybell asked:
R talks are nice, but what are you two doing to have fun? To feel closer rather than just jawing the thing to death?We've been going to dinner once every week or every other week, with the explicit understanding that we will not talk about the R during that time. So, we catch each other up on our lives, discuss current events, suggest podcasts/books/movies to each other (and then discuss those too).
Conversation has always been at the heart of how we connected. My H is not the "typical male" who bonds through activities. Even with his male friends, he maintains relationships through dinners and phone calls.
I'm a little bit more activity driven, but I think it makes sense to let H determine how we connect while we're still in the early stages of trying to put this R back together.
Double posting, but I need advice/encouragement.
In an hour or so, H is going to text me and tell me that D7 is asleep and I can come over to talk. We still have not decided our T-giving plans. H knows how I feel (basically, that there are no good options, but some bad options are better than others). I *think* he feels the same, but his "best of the worst" option is different from mine.
Here are the options on the table:
1. We drive 3 hours to see family, spending the holiday together as a family unit.
2. We drive 3 hours to see family, but we don't spend the holiday as a family unit (i.e., he goes to his parents, I go to mine, D7 goes to both).
3. We stay here and spend the holiday together as a family unit.
4. He and D7 drive 3 hours to see his family and I stay here. H doesn't know this, but a friend of mine has invited me to come over for a T-giving of cocktails and carry-out tomorrow.
My preference is #3, followed by #1, #4, and #2 in descending order. Of course (from what I can tell -- we've only had the briefest of discussions), H wants #2.
I'm trying to detach and not take that personally. I know that he is trying to protect himself (and to a certain extent, his family). Our progress is so tenuous right now. In this moment, I can say that it doesn't bother me. But tomorrow, when H is with his family and I'm not there, I'm scared I will fall apart.
Help me be strong! And detached!
(And hey, for all I know I'm going to go over to H's and he's going to say, let's spend tomorrow together!)
Hello Elsa. I have the same issue with detaching that you do. I'm still learning... so best advice I can give is to promise yourself not to take it personally. Be calm and upbeat... listen to his point of view.... let him know what doesn't and does work for you.
If you have time, you could even email H your options above, let him know your best preference, and then ask him to tell you what he thinks when you meet. That way, when you talk... the conversation could be shorter and under your control as he has to explain himself against your preferences. Beat him to the punch and let him catch up to you.
If it doesn't go your way... have tentative plans beforehand so you can say... "no problems... I have plans myself." Then go and enjoy yourself.
Maybe that would work? Good luck.
Elsa, this may or may not help but...
The main difference between 2 and 4 seems to be who you spend time with, no? So if it comes down to those, you should feel ok doing 4 over 2 if that's what you prefer. Either you are with your family or you are with your friend. It's up to you.
As for whether he is ready for 3 or 1, I say listen and see what he says but try not to pressure him. What's more important to you - Thanksgiving 2014 or Thanksgiving 2015? Give yourself the best chance at getting what you want in 2015.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving! How are you spending it?
Happy Thanksgiving! I appreciate your advice and support.
I ended up with door #4, and I feel good about it. I don't think that I was a model of detachment, but I do think I handled the conversation very differently than I would have 6 months ago, and so did H.
H called me at abt 9pm to say that D7 was still stirring and to ask if we could talk over the phone instead. I told him I didn't think that was a good idea. H said ok, but then we ended up talking on the phone for abt 30 minutes anyway. That part of the conversation did not go very well. I felt that H had already made his decision abt today without giving us a chance to talk it over as a couple. We went back and forth abt that for a while. Then I asked him, "If I come over and we have a heart-to-heart,* is it possible that we will end up spending T-giving together, or is your heart already closed to that possibility?"
His response (which really made me think) was, "Are you only concerned about the outcome, or do you want to have the heart-to-heart?" He then said that his heart was still open and I agreed to trust that that was true even if we ended up deciding not to spend the holiday together.
Then I went over to his house and we had an entirely different conversation. I listened to him, he listened to me. We talked abt some of the deeper issues that this raises for us both. I was 99% sure going into the conversation that I was going to be the one to give in, so I was able to stay calm as we talked.
One of the things that came up was that my capacity for forgiveness is greater than his. We were both worried that even if we spent T-giving together and had a great time, he would resent having given me the "win", whereas I'm not going to hold a grudge if he goes without me. H said that he didn't want to take advantage of that, but I told him that it's one of the few things we have working for us right now and we should use it if we need to. H said that he was worried I wouldn't be able to forgive easily in the future if we exploit it now. I told him that's a valid concern, but I'm not going to let the circumstances of our R change something that I value abt myself. H said he knows what I mean, because he knows that he has allowed his hurt to change some of his better qualities (he mentioned grace specifically) and he is finding that he likes himself more now that he has accepted the MC's challenge to re-discover those qualities again.
I told H that I can give a lot, and I don't need an apology, just appreciation. H said that he could do that.
As we were winding down our discussion, I said to him, "Ask me to go with you tomorrow." He did, and I said, "Thank you, but I don't think that's the right decision." Then we cuddled on the couch for a little while and talked about current events.
As I was getting ready to leave, he asked if he wanted me to text him tomorrow to let me know he got there safely. I said yes, but apparently something abt my response seemed hesitant because he said, "How about I respond to your texts, but I won't intrude on your day?" At that moment, an idea flashed through my mind and said to H, "This may sound crazy, but what if you interact with me tomorrow exactly as you would if I wasn't there because I'm sick?" He said, "I can do that." I looked at him (with tears welling up in my eyes -- so much for detachment!) and said, "That would be the perfect compromise. Because I'll still feel important to you, but you don't have to worry abt having an awkward or tense T-giving with me being right there."
So, we came to a decision together that we're both happy with. I'm going to do some work this am and then head over to my friend's house. I'm really looking forward to it!
*This is what our MC calls conversations where we try to listen to and understand each other. The MC also talks about "listening for the heart" so that language has crept its way into how we talk abt it too.
Yesterday was ok. H and D7 went to his parents' T-giving and I stayed here and celebrated with a friend. H texted me once, around noon, to say that he appreciated how different our conversation had been the night before and how hard I'm trying. I wrote back a little later and said that I felt good about the decision we'd made and I hoped he did too. Around 6pm, I texted to see when he'd be leaving and what his plans were for D7 (my house or his house for the night). He said that they were headed out the door and that she could stay with me if I wanted. I replied that I did.
I waffled a bit on the next text, but I didn't feel like he'd given me the attention during the day that I was expecting, based on the agreement we'd made. I sent a text that said, "Do you remember what we said last night, that you would treat me today as though I wasn't there because I was sick?" He wrote back yes and said that he had packed me some food and that he had been getting ready to text me abt their plans but I beat him to it. Then he asked if he could call and talk to me for a minute. I was in the process of texting back that it wasn't a good time (I was still with my friend), but then he called anyway and I decided to take the call. H was worried that I was upset. I told him that it's true that I didn't receive as much attention as I'd expected based on our agreement, but rather than be upset I wanted to see if he remembered the agreement and/or had the same understanding about it that I did. He apologized and said that he knew I had plans (and that if I were sick I would be sleeping) so he was trying not to interrupt my day. He said that when he thought about me today, he did imagine that I was home because I was sick and it allowed him to think of me in a loving way. He apologized again and I reassured him that it was okay. And it really was.
I've been reading HTIYMWTAI and I know that my H is hyper-sensitive to shame. In fact, he's told me before that his biggest fear is fear of failure. In light of that, I've been trying not to say anything that could be construed as critical of him or his efforts. (And it's HARD -- he will interpret me expressing a need as saying that he hasn't been meeting that need, or isn't trying to meet that need. Even the MC has called him out on that.)
However, I had a revelation recently and I think that I have been too apologetic when I trigger his shame response. I don't want him to feel badly so I accept more responsibility than I should in the situation. However, I think that ends up reinforcing his belief that I am "attacking" him because I'm accepting responsibility for some kind of wrongdoing. When in reality, if we had an agreement and I don't think he's doing his part, it's okay for me to ask him about it. That's not an attack. And if he apologizes and I accept it and tell him it's okay, then maybe that will actually resolve the issue. So, a bit of an odd 180 but I'm going to try it and see what happens.
I am having a hard time reconciling what he says with what he does. In counseling last Thursday, the MC said that we should talk for at least an hour every other day. H said, "I'm just not at that point yet." And yet --
1. After the counseling session, he asked if he could call me the next morning (Friday).
2. When we talked on Friday morning, he asked me for a dinner date and an R talk on Saturday night, which we did.
3. He texted me on Sunday morning with a complimentary message and asked if we could talk abt our schedule for the week. When we talked, he asked if we could have an R talk again on Monday night, which we did (in person).
4. On Tuesday morning, he texted me again with a complimentary message. When he picked up D7 after work, he asked if we could talk again on Wednesday evening, which we did.
5. Yesterday, when he dropped off D7, he asked if we could all go to dinner tomorrow night. When I asked if we could do our fondness exercise afterward (we've been doing them independently, saying that we exchange our responses to date on or around T-giving), he said yes.
He also told me last week that he is miserable every day "because I don't live with my spouse." I'm wondering if he is testing the waters and seeing if being with me is better than being without me?
Also, he told me on Wednesday night that he wants "fall in love with me again." He then clarified that he never fell "out" of love with me, but he wants it to be like it was in the beginning. We didn't discuss it further, but I wonder -- is that a good sign? Or a sign that his expectations are too high?
Elsa... I think you are seeing good signs from your H. No, your expectations should not be high... but he is trying. Keep making him work for it and maintain your distance. I think you're doing great.
I still wonder if you ever have fun together? All those R talks sound exhausting.
Maybell, the frequency of R talks in the last week or so is not our usual pattern. We usually have one a week, or maybe every other week (between counseling sessions). During the S, they have been initiated primarily by me, but H has initiated every interaction we've had in the past week. I'm curious to see where this takes us.
One of the things that I used to value abt my H (prior to the past year or so) was how open he was. He's never been a "grunter" -- we used to have (and enjoy) long talks about our emotions, dreams, goals, etc. From his perspective, the R broke because I stopped engaging in those conversations with him, and he eventually stopped trying. In a way, I see his attempts to initiate them as a return to his "old self" -- the one that kept our M strong in the early years.
But, we're still going on dates when we don't talk abt the R, too.
I agree. Have some fun. Laser tag, people watching in wal-mart. Bowling.
While it's great that y'all are talking and that's what brought you together, do something different - it'll give you something to talk about other than the R and give new memories.
I think I surprised H at MC counseling this week. The first question from the MC is always, "How you are doing as a couple?" and this week I stepped in first and said, "Really well."
H said, "That's not what I was expecting you to say!" and the MC asked me to elaborate. I said that two weeks ago, we had a difficult session where H told me that he could do what I needed him to do, and then over the past two weeks he proceeded to do it any way. We all laughed and agreed that's an example of when it's better that H didn't keep his word.
H said he had no idea what he had done differently and is worried that the good place won't hold since he doesn't know what caused it in the first place. The MC said that it's possible that it's my impression that's changing, not his behavior, or that it's some of both. (I think it's probably both.)
The MC asked me to say what H had done differently, and I told H that I felt like (for the most part) he was listening to me when we talked, trying to validate how I felt, and showing tenderness toward me. H said that he was trying to be more gracious because that is the person he wants to be.
I'm feeling pretty optimistic at the moment . . .
What to do with a WAS who says, "I want to move the ball forward" but then doesn't seem to follow through?
I decided to take your advice. On Wed, I texted him and asked if he would like to do something fun after D7 went to bed. He asked for a raincheck for Thurs because he was tired. I said, "Sure!" and suggested that we play a game together. He wrote back and said that sounded like fun.
On Thurs he came over. He thought I was joking about the game and that I meant I wanted to have sex. We played a game anyway and then had sex (because hey, I'm not going to turn that down!). Afterward, I told him that I had something positive that I wanted to share with him because I didn't get a chance to say it during the MC session on Tuesday -- namely, that in addition to appreciating the change in how he was interacting with me, I was also appreciating the change in how frequently he was initiating those interactions. He thanked me for telling him but didn't gush. He left shortly afterward.
The next day I went down the dangerous path known as mindreading and started to worry that his lack of enthusiasm meant that he wasn't planning to maintain our current level of contact (or worse -- that I was being placated again while he planned his next move). I turned it over in my head all day and decided to see if he called me on his way home from work. The wrinkle was that I was going to have to call him anyway to talk about $ (our usual conversation on the 5th of the month). But, I thought I would see if he called first.
The good news is that he did call because he anticipated the money issue. Last month, I asked for less than usual (even less than our agreed range) because I was having a good month. This month, I asked for the full amount of our range. I asked H if he saw this as a setback and he said no, he was "trying to compartmentalize" this from our other issues.
Then, I asked if he wanted to do something the next day (Sat) while D7 was at an activity. He said he already had plans, but we could do something soon. I said that sounded good and that I wanted him to know how great it had been to see him so much during the past two weeks. I really thought that I was doing a 180 -- trying to praise rather than criticize -- but H didn't take it that way at all and instead proceeded to tell me that I had no business asking for anything from him when he called to offer me money.
We ended up on the phone for 2 hours. Abt 45 minutes in, it seemed like we'd reached a resolution point where we both felt like we'd been heard and I was getting ready to end the call when H said, "Just so you know, I'm at the bank depositing your check and I am VERY ANGRY about it." And then I got hit with so much spew -- I've not heard H get that angry in a long time. The good news is that I kept my cool and he did NOT hang up or try to withdraw from the conversation (although at one point I told him that it was not okay to speak to me that way and that I was going to put the phone down until he stopped).
To his credit, he apologized and then we talked for another hour or so and were able to have a somewhat productive conversation. At the end he said he loved me and that he wants to move the ball forward "off of square one." (Square one is our metaphor for the bad habits that we both fall into when we're trying to work on the R.) So I asked him what he needed and he said the weekend. I said that was fine but ... if the goal is to off square one, why is he asking to do the very thing that defines square one for him (withdraw from me)?
Just be clear, the "but . . ." at the end of my post was in my head. It's not something I said to H. I told him to enjoy his weekend and he made plans for us to do something on Monday night.
Not many changes to report on my front. We seem to be in a cycle where things are good for about 2 weeks and then not so good for the next 2 weeks.
We did have an interesting conversation about forgiveness at MC this week. H admitted that he is holding onto a few hurts and that he "doesn't know" how to let them go even though I have apologized. H asked the MC how to truly forgive. The MC said that it's specific to the hurt, but that if H didn't believe my apology that could be a reason why he isn't able to let it go. H agreed that may be the problem and said that we could talk about it "offline" because the session was ending.
Unfortunately, despite 2 planned attempts to have that conversation, we haven't been able to make any headway because H can't think of any past hurts outside of the Top 5 Greatest Hits (Hurts?) but he thinks it will be a great model for us to remedy hurts as they come up in the future! I asked H if there was a reason that he didn't want to try dealing with one of those Top 5 hurts and he acknowledged that he isn't ready to let them go because holding onto them protects him from further hurt. I admit (here) that I don't understand his logic here at all, but I validated and suggested that we try with one of mine instead.
I tend to think of myself as pretty "good" at forgiveness -- I think I can move forward and treat someone who has treated me poorly with kindness and love rather easily. But one thing I've realized lately is that, at least where H is concerned, my past hurts do influence how I react when the other person is hurting. I'm not able to be as compassionate if there's a similar, unresolved hurt of my own rattling around in there.
So, I told H about an incident that I've been holding onto for a while (which actually parallels on of his Top 5 very closely, and that may be why he doesn't fully believe my apology for that, because maybe it ISN'T 100% sincere) and he apologized. I'm not sure that I believe him, and this is in an interesting place for me to be in because I've never wondered whether or not the apology was sincere; I've just accepted it. Even now, I don't know how I feel, but I do think he made a genuine effort to understand and accept responsibility for his role.
I really enjoy reading your thread because your H seems to be really putting the effort in. I can't imagine my H ever showing this much self-awareness, much less wrestling with this tough stuff. I wish you both all the best.
Am I to understand you and H are separated?
Elsa: One way to make a more believable apology is to start by paraphrasing what your H said, describing his hurt. It's like validating, but even closer to the original thought.
"When I went to see my parents in another state, you felt I didn't invite you because I wasn't proud of you or I never expected our relationship to last. You felt alone during that time and I didn't even contact you while I was there, making you feel even more like I wasn't there for you."
I'm making this up, but you see that it goes much further than "I'm sorry for making you feel bad when I went to visit my parents. It was not my intention." You need to give the other person the absolute conviction that you've heard them.
Thanks, Maybell. It's important for me to remember that he's giving a lot under the circumstances, because I still get frustrated easily (although I don't usually direct my frustration at him).
It's funny -- as part of a marriage-building exercise we did recently, we had to think of a couple we know who has a worse marriage than us. We (independently) picked the same couple, and we both said that it was hard to think of many people we know have it worse than us right now. But the more I think about it, the more I feel like we are better off than many intact couples -- we're both trying hard to open up, share our feelings, and make changes to give each other a better M.
Recently, a client asked me why I don't wear a wedding ring even though I talk about my husband quite a bit. I told her that it is complicated, we are separated but working on things, and that I still try to speak positively about him to other people. I hadn't even realized that last bit until it came out of my mouth, but I think it's true and I think it's helping me control my negative emotions in a way that is more productive to working on the M.
Sandi, yes, we've been separated for about 6 months now.
Mozza, thank you for your suggestions! H is definitely the master of the "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. That wasn't my intention!" style of apology. I'm not sure what my typical apology style is, but I'm trying some new things and I'll keep what you said in mind. I think feedback from H is critical, but that won't happen until he's willing to discuss the things he's still holding onto.
Did you know that the 5LL author has a similar book for apology languages? I did the online quiz and it seems that I definitely need the person to take responsibility and offer to make amends -- neither of which my H does naturally, but he was willing to role-play it with me the other night, which is nice.
I didn't know about the book on apology languages. Very interesting, thanks.
Another thing that makes apologies believable is questions. Ask your H questions like "how long were you hurt? Did it relate to something else? How often do you think about it? What reminds you of it? When did you realize how much it hurt you? What should I have done?" When I'm asked questions like this, I feel a wave of optimism that the other person is really trying to get me and the apology is heartfelt.
Sandi, yes, we've been separated for about 6 months now.
I am confused about the piecing part.
Because we are separated? My understanding is that piecing = both partners working on the the relationship with the intent to stay married, which is what we're doing.
Sandi - if I understand correctly, Elsa's H has maintained a position of wanting to work on it, even while they are living apart.
Elsa - I'm sorry I've been silent lately. I do keep checking in on your progress and it sounds like things are inching (ever so slowly) in the right direction, even if things go backwards at times. I agree with a previous post (Maybell?) that it's so great to read about two people who are honestly trying to make this work out. It brings a lot of us hope! I also love the way you write as we can really see the process you are going through. I'd noticed before that you don't really talk negatively about your H - I think this is a great thing and says a lot about you. You've handled this whole thing with grace.
Thanks for the encouragement, Ganbate!
Interesting development -- H is spending the night here on Xmas Eve. When he told me that's what he wanted, I didn't even know what to say. I was honestly avoiding the subject because I assumed that it was going to be a repeat of T-giving ("Well, I really WISH we were at that place, but . . .").
My lack of a reaction must have concerned him because he asked, "Isn't that what you want?" I said yes, of course. He smiled and said, "Thanks for making this easy!"
Sure, no problem, H!
Awesome development, Elsa!
Xmas is over here and I'm not sure how I feel.
You may recall that before H came over on Halloween, I asked him to treat me like I was the most important (adult) person there, and he agreed to do so. (If he had not, I would have asserted a boundary and asked him not to come.) This time, I decided to just "accept the gift" of his presence and not to try set any expectations ahead of time. Of course, we each had some unspoken expectations that we assumed the other was aware of. For example, I knew my H would not want to engage in any R talk during the holiday. And I assumed my H knew that I would need some physical touch in order to feel cared for.
H came over at about 8pm last night. We had a little dinner of frozen appetizers (Xmas Eve tradition) and D7 opened one of her presents (pajamas and a robe -- she was SO EXCITED about the robe, it was adorable). After D7 went to bed, we set up her Santa presents together and cleaned up from dinner. We headed to bed around 11pm.
This was the first time we'd slept in the same bed in almost six months. During the S, we've had sex, cuddled, laid down together and talked, etc. but we've not spent the night with each other.
My #1 fear: We would lay down in bed and H would make no attempt to touch me. Basically, he's there, but I'm still alone. I really thought there was no way that he would hurt me like that on Xmas Eve.
His #1 fear: We would lay down in bed and I would start a long R talk.
And of course, we managed to trigger each other's #1 fears. What could I have done differently? I suppose I just could have laid there and felt neglected again, tried to tell myself that he's trying and not to assume the worst, all the while building up resentment that's going to manifest itself anyway at some point. But you know what? I'm so tired of making excuses for why I'm being treated poorly by someone who claims to love me and claims to want our marriage to work. I'm just out of patience with that particular task. Really, I just want to know the truth. Are we really working on this? Or am I just being placated until he's ready to drop the next bomb?
So, I said something. I don't even remember exactly what I said. I think I asked him if he came over to spend Xmas as friends or as spouses. But really, anything I said would have gotten the same reaction he gave me, or worse (according to him) -- a big sigh, followed by "I knew this was a bad idea" and "If you keep this up, we will never spend another night together again."
We ended up talking in circles for 2 hours.
Toward the end, I brought in our conversation from last Friday -- the one where we talked about forgiveness and he apologized for one of my unresolved hurts. During that conversation, he'd told me that if I was upset, he would reach out to me instead of turn away, that he would never let it get to "that point" again. Last night, I told him that if that was true, this was a time when he needed to reach out for me. Finally, he asked me what I needed and to his credit, he did what asked (apologize and hold me). I asked him if it was real, and he said yes. He asked me what I needed to know that it was real, and I said that I didn't know, but it would help if he apologized again tomorrow. And he found a moment to do that today.
We did have a pleasant day today and didn't seem to hold the previous night against each other. He asked to go to lunch tomorrow, which was unexpected. We'll see what happens next.
Hello Elsa. It's great that you were able to pull positives out of the night spent together with your H. I think it's even better, though, that you have the presence of mind to see what both your fears and triggers were. Did you anticipate them or only see them after the fact?
Anyway, it seems that knowledge in you made it possible for you to help get the conversation to a point where you both eventually got some of what you each wanted... you the physical touch and him the feeling from you that he's doing something right for you. For me, at least, that's why old me didn't like R talks because I felt criticized and confused and my defenses came up. When he asked, you directly and simply told him something he could do and understand to help you and then you rewarded him by appreciating it. As a man... I love that.
At least that's how I see what you did. You are inspiring me. Thank you for sharing Elsa, I'm glad good things are happening for you, baby steps, and keep going.
I agree with HP. You continue to amaze and inspire me with your progress and how you "see" and reflect on things as they happen. The way I see it you are both nudging forward in your own way and you are both being mindful of each other's needs and wants. That's truly great!
Sleeping in the same bed - wow! That seems like a huge step. I totally get your need to be held (physical touch is one of my main LL). On the other hand, holding someone in bed is probably one of the most intimate things you can do in my book and I can see it could be a stretch when you are so early in the process.
I know you are eager to re-establish the R and are both communicating openly about your needs - which is great. Can you communicate your needs by saying this is what you will need from the R in the future but you acknowledge it may take some time to get there?
Elsa, I've been following your thread from the beginning (we're on the same timeline). I've noticed that you are often on here doubting H because his actions sometimes don't align with his words. He tells you that he wants to work on it, but then he doesn't go through with something and that disappoints you. I read this and think: Patience, Elsa! You do seem like you are a patient person and I'm not suggesting otherwise. But you got to piecing a lot faster than many of us here and so I don't think you've been forced to drop expectations in the same way many of us have. From where we sit, it sounds like your H is really trying!
I know you are tired of being patient, but I think reconciliation is within your reach if you can stay this path. You have a choice. Lie there, feel neglected and let the resentment build OR lie there, feel neglected in that moment but know that it will be ok because knowing this is a work in progress and he's finding it hard, too.
Remember - you both have training wheels on right now. You are learning and applying new skills in the hope of building a new R that meets both your needs/wants. Over time you can will be able to gradually raise the training wheels and ride for real, but it will take time to get to that point.
First time I rode without training wheels I did a few laps of the backyard then slammed straight into a clothes line and injured myself something bad. Methinks it would have been better to stay on training wheels for a bit longer.
Well, thank you both for managing to see some good in what I thought was a pretty rotten exchange!
I appreciate the male perspective on this, HP. My H has often said that he's tired of feeling like he's failing me, and I know that triggers his most basic fear -- which, like most men, is fear of failure. One problem that I'm running up against is that he also wants to do things "his" way and not feel controlled. Unfortunately, when I tell him what I need/want/etc, he feels controlled. He'll give it, but he may resent me for it (or not -- it really depends on the situation). And this is not mindreading on my part; he has admitted all of this in MC. It does put us in a particular quandary, I think.
Ganb8ate, hahaha to the suggestion that I'm patient person. You are kind, but I readily acknowledge that patience isn't one of my virtues.
This experience has taught me that I do have more patience than I realized, though, and I think sometimes I still sell myself a little short. You are right; with a little bit more time and less pressure, he may come around to more of this on his own.
And, interesting development #2 . . .
H included me in his family's Secret Santa gift exchange (without my knowledge) AND invited me to his family's Xmas celebration tomorrow. We talked this morning about our mutual fears but we decided that I would go and that his primary goal is to spend time with his family but that he also wants to care for me while we are there.
It took us about an hour to come that decision, but wow. That feels huge to me.
He doesn't want to come to my family's celebration tomorrow, but I'm okay with that. (Confession time -- I'm actually more than okay with that. It may make me a huge hypocrite, but I'd rather just enjoy some time with my family without having to worry about how they're interacting with H.)
Off to the mall to buy a gift for SIL . . .
Elsa,
Have you tried changing the way you tell him what you want/need?
You know what you are trying to tell him, but what is he actually hearing? Can you find a better way to get the message through his filters?
In my sitch it was like WAW was speaking French to me. She didn't say it right and I didn't hear it right.
bdub, I think you may be on to something but I'm not sure what I can do differently. Sometimes, he rises to the occasion and sometimes he doesn't. The other night when he said he could do something I requested, I asked him where the H was who says, "I'm already giving everything I have." He said that I was asking in a different way, but when I asked him how it was different (because really, I had no clue) he couldn't tell me anything specific.
I probably need to start journaling again.
I'm getting nervous about tomorrow, ya'll. I haven't seen my in-laws since February 9th -- one week after my mini-BD. (During an argument, I had said to H, "It's like you don't even want to be married to me anymore," and he said, "Sometimes I don't.") I was in a terrible mood because H was ignoring me (surprise!) and his parents even commented to him afterward about how different I seemed.
Of course, I'm in a much better place now than I was then. Then, my H claimed he loved me but he wasn't backing it up. My instincts were telling me that something was very wrong, but he was denying it. Nothing in my world added up right. I honestly thought that I might be going crazy.
Now, I know where I stand. The worst thing I could imagine happened and I am still here. I am okay. The fact that we are going to his parents together as a family unit is a good sign. I should be happy.
But I am worried. MIL will be great. (The one and only time that I talked to her after BD she told me that this changed nothing about our relationship and she still loved me.) SIL will be great. (Coincidentally, I just Facetimed with her for about an hour the other day when our kids abandoned their call with each other. It was the first time we'd spoken since BD, and the first thing she said to me was, "There's my sister!")
FIL is a different matter entirely. I know that I will be pleasant no matter what, but he has a history of interfering in my SIL's marriage and I'm more than a little worried that he'll do or say something inappropriate that makes it awkward for everyone.
I think another wrinkle for me is that my in-laws have moved house since the last time I visited them. I can't picture what it's going to look like because I really have no idea.
Maybe I missed something but the two of you are still separated, right? In what ways are you two working on the marriage?
Hi, MrBond. Yes, we are still separated. We are now seeing each other about 2-3 times per week, mostly for family activities and dates but also for R talk (e.g., checking in with each other, working through past issues, trying to find ways to manage/resolve the differences that have kept us in conflict). We are also seeing a MC every other week.
I'm not sure if that's the level of detail you were looking for, but I can elaborate if you think it would be helpful.
You can do it, Elsa! It may well be awkward but keep your sights on the end goal. It's great that you got MIL and SIL in your corner.
Well, FIL ignored me the whole time and we all had a good laugh about it after he went to bed. I really can't take it personally because that's just his personality. If H and I fully reconcile, FIL will come around eventually (and H has said that he will do what he can to help repair that relationship).
I am a little more confused by my interactions with H. On Saturday, H said that one of his goals on this trip was to show that he cares for me. I told him that, right now, affection is the best way for me to hear that message. Knowing that asking outright for more affection has backfired in the past, I didn't make any specific requests. But honestly, he'd have to be willfully obtuse at this point to not know that it hurts me when he doesn't do it.
So I went into the day with zero expectations, but some hope. D7 slept most of the way there and back (2.5 hrs each way), so H and I were able to have some good (non-R) conversations in the car. He dropped us off at my mom's house first and we spent a few hours there with her husband and his kids. Then H picked us up and we went to do an activity with his family. During the activity, H mostly talked to his family, which was absolutely fine. At one point he did invite me to sit down with him at a table, but otherwise we didn't really interact much.
After the activity, we went to H's parents' house to exchange presents. D7 asked if she could ride with her cousins, so H and I had some alone time in the car. I was not planning to initiate any R conversations yesterday, but as soon as we were in the car H asked me how I was doing. I told him I was great and that I was glad to be there. He pressed me for more feedback and I told him that he was being friendly and we were getting along well but if I had to be honest, I did notice that he hadn't touched me all day. H said, "That's so hard for me to hear, because I feel like I'm trying so hard. The whole time at the activity I was wondering if I was standing close enough to you or paying enough attention to you."
I tried to validate by telling him that it must be hard to feel like he's on eggshells around me when he's trying to have a good time with his family. I told him I wasn't upset (and I really wasn't) and encouraged him not to worry about the small details like how close he's standing to me or how much he talks to me vs. someone else. I said that really, all he needed to do to show he cares is to touch me a few times during the day. He seemed skeptical that I would really be okay with "just" that but I tried to reassure him that I would be. Again, I didn't make any direct requests but just tried to give him a way "out" of the predicament he was in.
We had cake and ice cream (it was also MIL's birthday) and opened presents and then finally H came over and sat next to me and put his hand on my knee. And I appreciated it for what it was -- H trying to respond to me.
I would not say this to H, but sometimes I feel like he's being a little passive-aggressive with the physical touch. He'll make a gesture, but it will be awkward or (for lack of a better word) lame (like the hug equivalent of a limp handshake). I actually wonder if he's holding back on purpose to see if I will say something so that he can play the martyr card -- "I did what you asked me to and it's STILL not enough???? I'm never going to do that again!" I mean, that type of exchange has definitely happened but I don't know if he intends for it to happen or not. Either way, I decided that I'm not going to play that game anymore.
I would not say this to H, but sometimes I feel like he's being a little passive-aggressive with the physical touch. He'll make a gesture, but it will be awkward or (for lack of a better word) lame (like the hug equivalent of a limp handshake). I actually wonder if he's holding back on purpose to see if I will say something so that he can play the martyr card -- "I did what you asked me to and it's STILL not enough???? I'm never going to do that again!"
Its just a thought but maybe its because he feels awkward. Maybe he hasnt forgiven himself or he is uncertain of your reaction or he has a whole pile of other issues that are stacked up into it. Why do you think he will play the martyr card?
Dont get me wrong after I was rejected for my apprehensive hugs a bunch of times I stopped trying. I took it as rejection when in reality it was way more complex than that.
I mean, that type of exchange has definitely happened but I don't know if he intends for it to happen or not. Either way, I decided that I'm not going to play that game anymore.
can i ask what you mean by this? what do you intend to do next time?
I guess what i'm saying is this is the kind of thing that can easily become a arguement or a disagreement when in reality you both probably want the same thing. Blame and defensiveness can get in the way.
Maybe next time he does this you might want to think about whether rather than saying something you more lovingly wait till he starts to pull away and then take more of a lead, with a kind of 'hey, I'm not finished with that hug yet' and pull him back into the kind of hug you want.
So why haven't the two of you moved back together?
I don't see in your posts where you detailed your marital issues. Could you explain what they were?
Why do you think he will play the martyr card?
Because that's what he does? As recently as last week. What I don't know is whether or not he is setting me up on purpose, or that's just his response. I want to have compassion for him when he feels like he can't do anything right in my eyes, but there are so many trust issues on my end that it's difficult to do that when his gestures seem so . . . half-hearted to me.
I did have a chance to mention this when we talked last week. (I think it was Tuesday, the day before NYE.) He mentioned that he didn't think anything he could do would be good enough for me because he's done everything I asked and I still want more. (Reality check: He has not done everything I've asked, not by a long shot. Nor should he, but that's for a different conversation.) I validated and said that it must be difficult to try harder when you feel like nothing is ever good enough. We talked a little bit longer and eventually he asked me what I needed from him in that moment. I told him that I wanted to know that he loved me and that he was sorry for hurting my feelings. Then he said in the most exasperated tone, "I love you and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." I thanked him for saying what I needed, but I also said that if he wondered why his gifts never seemed good enough, it was because I felt like I was pulling teeth to get them. He softened up a bit and gave a more sincerely worded apology after that.
can i ask what you mean by this? what do you intend to do next time?
I guess what i'm saying is this is the kind of thing that can easily become a arguement or a disagreement when in reality you both probably want the same thing. Blame and defensiveness can get in the way.
Maybe next time he does this you might want to think about whether rather than saying something you more lovingly wait till he starts to pull away and then take more of a lead, with a kind of 'hey, I'm not finished with that hug yet' and pull him back into the kind of hug you want.
I think I meant that I wasn't going to say anything in the moment, but then I did exactly the opposite a day or two later, so maybe I need to remember the plan!
I like your advice, though. I need to find a way to communicate my needs without making him feel inadequate.
I need to find a way to communicate my needs without making him feel inadequate.
How he feels is ultimately up to him but the way we can interact can reinforce or assuage these feelings. So better maybe is to say
"I need to find a way to communicate my needs that at the same time tells him he I feel he is enough"
probably could phrase that better
So why haven't the two of you moved back together?
The short answer is because neither of us is ready yet. I would probably be more willing to try it and see what happens, but I know that H is still really apprehensive about conflict and I'm not in a position to keep conflict from happening when I feel like my needs aren't being met. It seems like a recipe for disaster without making some more progress first.
I don't see in your posts where you detailed your marital issues. Could you explain what they were?
I had some details in my very first post, but I can expand more here.
1. H says there was too much conflict between us. The conflict hurts him, but I'm impervious to it so I really didn't realize that it was a problem until it was too late.
2. H feels like I never had his back because he would ask me to do things for him (mostly legal work) and I would say no.
3. H feels like he has no power in our relationship.
4. I have felt emotionally and physically abandoned by H since we moved 300 miles for him to take a new job.
5. I wanted to have more children, and he was procrastinating without telling me why. (In retrospect, duh.) This was the primary source of the "conflict" that H says he left to get away from.
6. H has a difficult time with forgiveness and also with accepting responsibility (they seem to go hand in hand, don't they?). He is holding onto a lot of old baggage. For example, ten years ago I went on a business trip for a week and didn't call him until the 5th day. He has brought that up 3 times in the past year (and was validated by me every time), and yet when I try to bring up something he said or did a month ago for which there was no closure, he tells me it isn't fair. (I don't like double standards -- can you tell?)
So, we've had a good-ish week, I think. Journaling a bit --
12/30: H calls me on the way home from work. We have not discussed NYE. He tells me that he has something that he wants to do but he doesn't want me to think he's withdrawing from me. He wants to go to [town where we went to college] and hang out with a friend. I tell him that I have always valued independence in our R, but it's hard to not see this as withdrawing from me under the circumstances (1st NYE apart in 13 years). He panics and thinks I'm telling him he can't go. (As though I have that power???) I tell him that I'm not saying that, I'm speaking from my heart. I tell him that I want him to go and have a good time, and I appreciated how he approached me about. He wraps with, "So I did a good thing, by calling you and talking to you about." And I tell him yes, that was the perfect way to do it. I tell him that I know he wanted me to say, "Yes, go have fun with your friend!" as soon as he asked. I explain that I could have done that, but it wouldn't have been sincere; however, now that we've talked I can honestly say that I want him to go and I hope he enjoys himself. H seems to feel as good about this conversation as I do. It took less than 10 minutes, and we both felt good about the outcome.
So then I say, "Hey, since we're not going to see each other tomorrow, how about I come over for a little *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* tonight." (There's a little bit of backstory here, but we've had to put off 2 planned, uh, get-togethers in the past couple of weeks.) H says, "Well, I'm going to be really busy packing and doing laundry tonight. How about another time?" ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I tried to stay calm but the conversation really deteriorated from there. We ended up on the phone for nearly two hours, going around in circles. Finally, we both agree to disagree and we apologize to each other. H promises that everything is ok. H comes over to pick up D7 for the night and acts like everything is not ok. I ask him, and he says, "It was until you said something!" Not buying that for a second. H leaves and then sends me a couple of anger-texts (which is a little out of character for him). I call him back and ask him if he would like to talk. He says after D7 goes to bed. H calls me back and we talk again. (This is the conversation I mentioned in my earlier post.) It actually goes well and at the end he makes a real attempt to give me what I need. I ask him what he would do if he were here, and he says, "I would give you a hug."
12/31: H comes over in the am to drop off D7. He gives me a huge bear hug and a kiss and says, "Happy New Year!" Later in the day I get a random text: "I love you and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings."
1/1: H calls me around 3pm, on his way home from [college town], to say hello. (Not many of those phone calls happening these days, so that was nice.) H says he'll be getting back late. H asks if I would like to get together on Friday or Saturday. I choose Friday.
1/2: H comes over for dinner and games with D7 and I. I make food from "back home." After D7 goes to bed, H says that he isn't feeling well and asks if we can reschedule the rest of the evening for the following night. I say that's fine (genuine PMA) and I hope he feels better.
One weird thing: H makes a point of mentioning that he hugged me (D7 asked for a "D7 sandwich" when he got there) and he wanted to make sure I noticed so I "wouldn't think he wasn't touching me." I wish he would just, you know, make it so obvious that he doesn't have to wonder whether or not its enough but okay, this is a start.
1/3: H comes over after D7 goes to bed and we have sex.
1/5: My favorite day of the month (/sarcasm) -- time for the money talk! I bring it up when he comes by to pick up D7 for the night. We both acknowledge that we are not happy with the current financial arrangement -- he thinks he gives too much, I think he has a poor attitude about it in general. H suggests that we talk about it at MC on Thursday, but I say that I already have something I want to talk about. H looks at me quizzically and asks, "What do you want to talk about?" I say, "I just want to reflect back on some things that have happened over the past few weeks."
H: Good or bad?
Me: Uh, good, I guess. But we can talk more about it on Thursday.
H: I feel like you don't want to tell me.
Me: Now is just not a good time. [And it isn't. We are in the entry way with D7 between us, putting on her shoes and packing up her things for the night.]
H: Okay, now I'm nervous.
Me: Don't worry, it's nothing bad.
(The reality is that I want to talk about how I feel like he's really reaching out and doing the things I need, but I still feel like it's lacking in sincerity. I want to talk about whether or not it's working for him, because if he's resents it every step of the way it's not a tool that's going to help bring us back together.)
Before he leaves, I tell him that we should talk about the money situation in MC too if that's what he wants, or do it another time soon. I ask if he still wants to find a solution that works for both of us and he said yes.
Which brings me to tonight. H sent me a text a little while ago and I'm not sure how to respond (if at all).
Last night, H agreed to deposit a check in my bank account today before 8pm. When he picked up D7 tonight, he said they needed to hurry to get to the bank. D7 was being difficult and I didn't get a chance to acknowledge it at the time, but a little while after they left I texted him and said, "I forget to say thank you for going to the bank because D7 was being such a fussbudget. So, thank you."
He wrote back: "Your welcome. Sorry you worry about it."
Huh? Worry about what? That he won't go to the bank? That he will stop giving me money? That I'm barely scraping by on what I make even with his help? I have no idea what he's referring to, and it seems like a casual way to address what's increasingly becoming a hot button issue between us.
Hello Elsa. I'm sure he meant sorry you're, as you say, "barely scraping by on what I make" and in the best way. Just assume it if you doubt it. I'm sure he was trying to be supportive and just missed. He's not getting the education we get here. Benefit of the doubt.
Thanks, HP. I decided that it would be better to accept it at face value if I want to encourage that kind of sympathy in the future. But I'm still a little apprehensive about his meaning, but we had a pleasant exchange this morning so I think it's okay.
But.
H forgot to bring D7's backpack, and we didn't realize until it was time to leave for school. Oops. I emailed H to make sure he hadn't put it somewhere here and I just wasn't seeing it, and he replied that back that he was terribly sorry but he was pretty sure it was in the car.
It's really not a big deal. Yesterday was a goof-off day at school because there was snow and a lot kids were absent. She had no homework to turn in, and we have plenty of spare backpacks here to use in a pinch (which is exactly what we did). However, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that H would be upset with me about for hours pre-BD -- it was example of how I was forgetful, it was an example of how inconsiderate I was, etc. I don't even think he realizes how poorly he was treating me there for a while.
Just thinking of what the MC said a few session back: I need to be a model of grace for my H.
IMHO, both you and your H are going to have to learn how to compromise. This includes your feelings of resentment towards each other. You say that he doesn't apologize, yet he does and when he does it's not good enough for you because you feel he either doesn't mean it or doesn't get why he's apologizing in the first place.
BOTH of you need to be a little more specific. Rather than telling him that you need an apology (which is someone no one likes to be told), give him examples. Tell him the times that you appreciated when he did something and expand on that. Then have him do the same.
The two of you are communicating are on two different levels and both can't understand why the other doesn't "get it".
Thanks, Mr. Bond. I appreciate your input.
I've been here and reading but feeling a little down on myself and my own situation so I haven't been posting much. We are still muddling through. H came to me a few weeks ago and said that he was unhappy with the money situation. Despite saying that he wanted to find the "our way," he rejected every suggestion I came up with to ameliorate the situation and didn't offer anything beyond his original ask. Since one of his complaints is that I don't listen to him and just do what I want to do regardless of his feelings, I decided to drop the rope (on this particular issue) and give him what he asked for. I felt that this would be a good way to demonstrate that I'm willing to change how I interact with him in order to make him happier in the R. I admit that I also hoped it would encourage him to come around to my point of view on another issue, but I didn't try to make it an express quid pro quo.
Of course, he is still a WAH and despite claiming that he is trying, he wants our M to work, he wants to meet my needs, etc -- I'm not seeing many changes and certainly nothing akin to what I gave him on the money issue.
We keep coming back to the same issue and I really think it's becoming my hill to die on, so to speak. We talked about it in MC last night and I'd like to get your input.
The gist of it is: I need comfort (physical and emotional) and companionship from my H. He needs space. I say those two needs are equal; we are both asking something from each other. H says that he is not asking anything from me. He thinks he is taking what is rightfully his as an individual, but I don't have the right to demand comfort and companionship from him (or anyone). (And I'll go ahead say that intellectually, I'm not sure that I disagree him. But we are not two people having an intellectual discussion; we are two people trying to save a marriage. It doesn't sit right with me that H characterizes his needs as inherent while mine are optional.)
We both have two very specific incidents in recent memory that are triggering this for us. Mine happened a couple of years ago, well before BD. I had noticed H was not affectionate, never seemed to touch me, etc and I had said something to him a few times. Each time, he said that he would work on it and I would get a few awkward arm pats for a few days but then he would stop trying. One night we were in our bedroom getting ready for bed and I brought it up again. I said, "It feels like you don't even want to touch me." And he said, "Sometimes, I don't." And I just crumbled. Literally. I fell on the floor and cried. And he just sat there like there was nothing he could have said or done, like he had no role at all to play in that event. And then later, rather than tell me, "I'm really sorry that my words hurt you so much," he used the incident to justify why he couldn't tell me the truth about how he was feeling. Because if he'd told me that he was leaving outside the presence of the MC, I might have fallen on the floor and cried and THAT would have been too much for HIM to bear.
So this comes up in MC last night. The MC is trying to get me to see H's perspective, which is that he was frozen in that moment and couldn't act because he was emotionally blocked by his own pain. And I'm saying that I get that, I really do, but that's not the marriage I want to be in. I give my H grace all the time, but I can't in this situation. I can forgive him, but he needs to accept responsibility for his role and ask for forgiveness. He can do that at any time and I will forgive him. But, this isn't something that I'm able to be gracious about.
And then I turn to H and say, "H, how would you feel if [MC] was asking you to see Your Thing from my perspective? Because we've tried to have that conversation before and you've told me that you will never be able to see it from my perspective." H agrees that is true, but then goes on to say that His Thing is different because of the aforementioned "right to not be perturbed." H then explains to the MC that His Thing is an incident that happened right before BD, when I stood over H while he was laying down and yelled at him that he was weak because he wouldn't talk to me.
The MC then says that he disagrees with H because they are the same. H says, "But I didn't hit her, I didn't abuse her by not picking her up off the floor." The MC says, "But she didn't hit you either. You could have done something worse, sure, but so could she. The reality is that you both needed something from the other person in those moments that you didn't get. You needed her to leave you alone, and she needed you to pick her up. Those are the same thing."
I have no idea whether or not H is going to change his perspective on this. I honestly don't think I can. Thoughts?
Wow Elsa. He is just not really willing to try at all. That could change, but if he's really not willing to even TRY to see things from your perspective, that sounds really immature and selfish. Is that the kind of person you want as your partner in life? I applaud you for trying to make it work, but don't put his needs before yours. Make sure you are taking care of yourself and planning for your future, either way things turn out.
H agrees that is true, but then goes on to say that His Thing is different because of the aforementioned "right to not be perturbed." H then explains to the MC that His Thing is an incident that happened right before BD, when I stood over H while he was laying down and yelled at him that he was weak because he wouldn't talk to me.
This sounds like my STBX. And I lived with it for a REALLY long time, and I would have continued to live with it till it became clear to me that he just doesn't care. And now? There is NOTHING he could do to get me to trust him again. Because now, and for the future, this is a deal breaker for me. A caring spouse sacrifices -- SOMETIMES. And recognizes the other person's sacrifices with appreciation. That is my new deal breaker.
I don't know what real piecing looks like so I don't have advice for you. But that is how I feel from my own perspective. It feels TO ME like he is using the MC to try to get YOU to change your deal breakers, not for the two of you to figure out how to be happily married to one another.
I don't remember what your H is so hurt by? What are you taking responsibility for, and what has he taken responsibility for?
The two of you still can't get on the same page. As I mentioned before, you expect him to feel sorry for the things he does and he doesn't know what that means. Likewise, he says he has needs that you don't seem to understand. Both of you are unwilling to give up that control.
Hey Elsa, Sorry you are in a rough spot lately. It's a challenging dynamic.
Just a couple of thoughts. Has your H read 5LL or have you guys talked about the concepts? Is it entirely clear to him that you feel unloved when he doesn't show you affection? I'm ashamed to say, for me personally, it took seeing these concepts written down in a book (rather than my H saying it) to understand that his needs truly are different from mine.
MrBond's comments above make me think that you might also get something from reading NVC (Rosenburg). Can you work on improving your communication such that you tell H what you specifically need? e.g. "H, when you do [X], it makes be feel [Y]. I'd love it if you would do [Z]." [X] should be an observation (fact), not a judgement or diagnosis. When making a request for [Z] it should not be viewed as a demand; you shouldn't expect him to go through with it, just give him the option to. There are some good videos on Youtube on how to practice non-violent communication if you don't want to read the book.
Thanks, guys. I will come back later and address your specific points. But first, I need to share a quick update.
I feel like we have hit rock bottom. After MC on Monday, he said he would call me last night at 6pm so that we could talk some more. I was feeling down on Monday night and sent him a text asking if we could talk for a few minutes. He begged off but was really sweet about it -- he told me that he was sorry he couldn't meet my needs but he loved me and he knows I'm trying. This was all via text message but I felt good about where we were headed. So good, in fact, that I almost asked him NOT to call me last night, but I didn't. I still wanted to see what he had to say about the The Things.
So last night we're maybe 15 minutes into the conversation and H says, "You're just saying the same things over and over again. Everything is conflict. I can't do this anymore. How do I tell you I want to be done? This isn't the heat of the moment, this is me telling you I don't want to do this anymore. I need you to hear me because later I don't want you to say that you didn't know."
(Holy cow -- as I type that out I realize that I may have misinterpreted what he meant AGAIN. I took "done" to mean "done with the R" but now I think he meant "done with the conflict" in way that might lead to him being done with the R. That actually makes so much more sense given how the rest of the conversation went.)
I asked him something like, "Why did you send me those texts last night? You seemed to be much more positive and now 15 minutes into a conversation you're telling me you're done?" He said, "Because I was hopeful. I thought this conversation might be different."
Is it possible that we're having more conflict because we both have hope and expectations again?
I don't how we got past the "I'm done" part of the conversation, but we talked for another 30 minutes or so. He told me that he needs things to improve soon. I said that I do too. He said that he wants to spend more time with me without fighting. I asked if we could be affectionate and have sex, and he said we could make those things a priority. Then he had to go (legitimately, he was picking up D7) and I said I would text him about when we could get together. I got off the phone and sobbed.
We texted a little bit later in the evening. I said that I was really raw. He said, "Let's get together on Thursday and have fun. If you still feel unsettled about tonight, we can talk about it at another time. But I think we need to eliminate non-positive interactions right now." I asked him if he could tell me that he isn't giving up and he is going to fight for us, and he wrote back that he wasn't giving up and he will fight. We both said thank you for trying, ILY, and good night.
Today is the worst day I have had in a long time. I truly feel like BD all over again. Someone come whack me with a 2x4 and tell me not to be so negative.
Just a thought...sometimes we can "over think" things....if H agrees to go out...try to just have fun and stop talking about "things"....think about it. Were you first days...months filled with heart heavy conversation...? Be that person/those people for an evening. Act "as-if" you are out with someone you enjoy and are excited to be with for the evening. Just enjoy yourselves if you go out. My 2 cents....
I think I am over-thinking. I think I need to not get so hung up on the words he is saying but look at his actions. He is being more affectionate. Twice in the past week we have met for "cuddle time." He tells me that is the person he wants to be, he just needs some time for his feelings to catch up with his actions. I think I need to give him some room to be that person and stop pressuring him.
Sigh. This is so hard.
Fortunately, I'm going to be very busy tonight/tomorrow. I'm starting a new class tonight and teaching my favorite topic. Tomorrow morning I have a 3 hour client meeting and then a CLE. There won't be much time in there to be lonely/upset/dwell on the R.
Thank you for the encouragement!
I asked him something like, "Why did you send me those texts last night? You seemed to be much more positive and now 15 minutes into a conversation you're telling me you're done?"
...
He said, "Let's get together on Thursday and have fun. If you still feel unsettled about tonight, we can talk about it at another time. But I think we need to eliminate non-positive interactions right now."
That first bit from you? That's Jackal speak - he's likely to respond defensively rather than with compassion i.e. it fuels conflict. Look into the book by Rosenburg and videos (which use Giraffe and Jackal puppets to explain the ideas). I think you developing some NVC skills could go a long way to eliminating non-positive interactions.
It's great that he's suggesting to go do something fun. He's communicated a need and made a clear request for what to do about it.
Elsa - have a read around these boards. You have a LONG way to go before you're at rock bottom. I appreciate that you feel that way but things could be far far worse. Heck - you have plans to meet up and do something fun. You're not meeting up with a lawyer to draft papers.
Elsa
I see this as good news from your H. Take is slow and just have fun. My W and I went back and forth in a very similar situation. She just wanted us to take it easy and relax with all of the R work and talk. We never had any MC, good for you guys.
Just go out and have fun and enjoy the cuddling and sex. Think back to when you were first dating and excited to get to know each other. Try to pull the pressure off.
When I couldn't reign in my pressure it has forced my situation into D proceedings. Just try to relax, be young and have fun.
My W and I were good at the fun part but I got too excited and started applying pressure. Just enjoy in the moment and don't try to force things back to where they once were.
You are no near rock bottom and the fact that your H said he wants to fight for you is very positive.
Ganb8te, I appreciate the feedback. I will check out those videos tomorrow. I am all for anything that I can do to change our interaction pattern.
gogofo, thank you for helping me see the positive in his interactions. A few months ago I was really struggling to trust what he told me, but I'm finding that as time goes on, his words have power again. He must have found a way to show me that he means it without me realizing it.
We ended up have a pleasant email exchange and a brief phone call tonight. The phone call was about a logistical issue but he asked how I was doing and I said much better (not a lie, but not the whole truth, either!). He said that he is "casting a vision" for us and he thinks we're doing it.
We'll see where this goes. I think if I want this to get better I'm going to have to do some more work on myself.
No problem - and sorry if it sounded a bit rough. I was running out the door!
Now sit back and enjoy some time with H.
Elsa, I would encourage you not to try to have any more R talks with him. He obviously doesn't want to, and it seems to make the situation worse. It's good that he wants to go out and have fun with you tonight. But prepare yourself for the fact that it might be cake eating on his part. Be hopeful, but don't be a fool. Start putting more focus on your own life just in case.
Hi Elsa, I'm new on your thread! Ganb8te recommended it to me. Just got caught up and I'm seriously impressed with how little you rock and roll despite all that goes on internally. I will need to keep that with me in coming weeks.
One idea that occurred to me in reading your sitch - what if you acted as-if you were a happily married freshly in love version of yourself for a while? Your H, like mine, is able to think and work with heavy. Sometimes we get lost in it. We've had a solid week since he came home and I owe most of it to acting as-if and not letting the confusion he's going thru rock me from the loving sexual person I wanted to be despite the pain. He has said so many conflicting things it would drive me crazy. And has. My crazy is all over this board.
I told my H recently about the fantasy I had for my next H if he didn't stick around. It was inspired by the wonderful relationship with our dog. How good it is that one of us can't speak. I'd move to Europe, meet a man that spoke virtually no English, we'd pass the salt through hand signals, pet each other, ML, and that would be a conflict free and happy M with no ground for misunderstanding. We got a good laugh out of it anyway,
Hugs to you, congrats on all you've achieved, and still will...
Thank you for stopping by Zelda! I'll pop over to your thread later today after I catch up on your sitch.
I like your use of the "as-if" technique. Sometimes I worry about building "bad" habits (like, it's okay to ignore my needs -- I'll still be happy and nice, etc) but I think my H is far more likely to respond to positivity than negativity.
The past week or so has been pretty good. H went out of town for a few days for work and I just let him be -- didn't call or text or anything while he was gone. When he came back he was friendly, but not overly so. This is where things have a tendency to go downhill for us. I think I've just given him what he wants/needs in spades, and he comes back and says, "Did you have a good few days?" and thinks that's enough.
This time, I ended up reaching out and trying to explain that when I give a lot, I expect a lot in return (rightly or wrongly) and when I don't get it, I worry that he's not committed anymore, etc. The first part of the conversation was rocky because H saw it as (once again!) me accusing him of not being the person I want him to be. He said, "I just want you to accept me for who I am." And I said, "I'm sorry you think I don't accept you. I really do -- faults and personality quirks and all. I am asking you to change something about how you interact with me, just as you have asked me to do the same re: conflict. I want to be accepted too, and being affectionate is how I know that you accept me."
That last thought had been rattling around in my brain for a while, but I'd not gotten a chance to say it to H yet. It ended up changing the whole tenor of the conversation. I went over to his house that night and we cuddled and watched TV together. The next morning, he sent me a text that said, "Last nice was nice. Thank you." I gave him space for a few days, and we are going on a date tonight. I feel like we are in a good rhythm. Other than the conversation above (abt 30 min), we've not had any R talk/conflict in almost 2 weeks.
Something I'm curious about:
At BD, I asked H to go to IC and he said he would. But, he never did. I worry a little bit about him finding an IC who encourages him to D, but I do think he would benefit from IC (and hey, so might our M).
Our current MC didn't have us do individual appts in the beginning like most MC. A few sessions ago, he explained that this was because we came to him in a crisis, and he prioritized stability over personal history. He then said that he felt like we were stable enough to start exploring those other issues, so we both made individual appts. I went in for mine and it was completely normal. H went in for his, and they didn't finish, so he had to make another appt. His 2nd appt was a few days ago and we go back together next week.
I'm thinking of suggesting to H that he see our MC for IC. Clearly, he has a lot to talk abt! Our MC is very pro-marriage and seems very fair. I'm not worried that it would slant him to my H's side at all. What do you think?
I think it's a sensible suggestion! Our MC works with us individually, and he has two other docs besides her.
I keep thinking of my H saying he just wanted to be away from the stress that was our relationship. So I am careful to not let anything get heavier than if has to right now.
Like you, I am giving and giving and getting little chunks back. It's easier to deal with when I realize this is a strategy. And I'm still thinking things over and if at the end of the day my needs aren't being met when I decide done...well, it's some peace not to push or rush.
Hugs! Happy weekend, hope all continues to go well!
Just popping in for a long-overdue update.
Things have continued to go very, very well over the past few weeks. We spent Valentine's Day together, and we went out for dinner another night this week to celebrate the anniversary of our first date (which I suppose means that I need to update my signature, since we've now been "together" for 14 years). I have been STFU for the most part, and I've definitely noticed a postive impact on the R. We've had a couple of little bumps over the past few weeks but instead of the conversations taking hours they've been over in 20 minutes, with lots of good listening and responsiveness and appreciation on both our parts.
As an example--
Yesterday, I had to call H to talk abt our schedules. I asked if he was free on Friday and he said he had plans, but he would like us to get together on Saturday or Sunday instead. After we hung up, I realized that I was bothered by the fact that he didn't tell me what his plans were. So, I called back and said, "I'm going to be silly for a moment, but I hope you'll indulge me. It made me nervous when you said you had plans on Friday but didn't tell me what they were."
He said, "I'm sorry, I didn't know it would upset you. I wasn't try to withhold anything from you. I'm going out for drinks with So and So from work."
I asked him a couple of questions about it, and he answered them. Then he said, "I feel controlled when you ask me those questions, like you are judging what I'm doing or implying that I shouldn't go. I should be able to go out with my friends sometimes and not feel bad about it."
I said, "I'm sorry you feel controlled. I definitely agree that you should be able to go out with your friends, and I hope you have a good time tomorrow night. I have a vision for us, which is that we share our plans with each other, and we are not threatened by each other's plans." I then brought up some examples from the past where I felt like we did this well.
("I have a vision" is language from the MC. H uses it a lot when he wants to get my attention, so I thought I'd try it too and I think it worked.)
He said, "I have that vision too. Can I say one more thing, though? I feel like there's a little bit of a double standard. Back in the summer and early fall, there were a few times when you had plans and you didn't tell me what they were."
I said, "I can see why that would feel like a double standard. I definitely remember what you are talking about and I am happy to tell you now what I was doing then. At the time, I thought I was following your lead and keep some things to myself, but I think we're in a different place now, and I want to foster a sense of openness between us."
He said, "Ok, I understand."
I said, "Thank you for this conversation. I can tell you are really trying to listen and consider my perspective, and I appreciate that."
He said, "I feel the same way. The lack of conflict recently has really helped."
I ended the call and we both said I love you at exactly the same time.
Later in the day he called back. I picked up the phone and said, without thinking, "What's wrong?" I don't get many phone calls from H in the middle of the day. H said, "Nothing is wrong. I just wanted to let you know that I was sorry about making you nervous this morning and to let you know that it is okay that you brought it up. I didn't want you to spend the whole day worrying about it." I said something like, "That's so nice, you didn't have to do that,"and he said, "You told me once that you liked to be reassured after the conversation was over that you hadn't upset the balance, so I'm letting you know." I thanked him for listening and for calling.
Later in the evening he dropped off D7. He looked at me and said, "Are you ok?" and held up his hand for me to clasp. I said yes and asked if he was ok too and he said yes.
Am really appreciating his thoughtfulness/attention to my needs of late . . .
Just journaling a little bit --
Went to lunch with H and D7 today. I sort of dislike doing things as a family because I don't think H is as attentive to me when D7 is around. Today he seemed unusually quiet. When we got to the restaurant I asked, "Are you ok?" He said yes, and then we got called to the hostess stand. While we were waiting to be seated, he turned to me and said, "Why did you ask if I was ok?" I smiled and said that was a dangerous question. He asked why. I said, "Because then I will have to say what you was doing to make me think you were not ok, and then you will feel judged. If you're really ok, then I was wrong and we can just leave it at that." H gave me a puzzle look and said something like, "You can answer the question." So I said, "You just seemed distant, like you didn't particularly want to be here with me." He nodded and then we were called to our table.
So we're sitting there with D7 doing MadLibs and making small talk and I just want to go sit in the bathroom and cry. This is one of those moments where I know that it's me and my perception of things, but I also get very upset that H is not willing to step up and offer reassurance. I mean, if really NOT ok and he doesn't want to say so or offer reassurance otherwise, then fine. But if it really IS ok and he knows that I think otherwise it just seems cruel to leave me hanging, wondering if I'm misjudging the situation or not.
Just when I was abt to excuse myself to go look around the gift shop (and let's be honest, have a little cry), he said, "Hey Elsa, everything is fine." I said thank you. He said, "I'm offering you some reassurance." I said, "I know, thank you." And that was that.
I was prepared to take care of myself in that moment (by excusing myself from the table) but H did what I needed, without prompting. It ended up being a nice little moment.
This is something I can see getting better with time. I'm not despondent or feeling like it's futile. We're trying to find our balance, and I really feel like it's happening.
Of course, no good thing ever lasts . . .
We finally seemed to be finding our path, and then all heck broke loose. We went to MC and the first thing H brought up was the conversation I mentioned two posts ago. He said that he was really upset that I violated a boundary (by calling him back after we'd hung up) and that was not acceptable to him. I lost it. For me, the most significant bright spot in the past month had been that conversation (and the follow-ups later in the day). It was a shining example of listening, compromise, and growth in our R -- and here was H tearing it all down.
The entire session ended up being about H's boundaries and whether or not it is reasonable to expect me to meet them 100% of the time. For clarity, his boundaries are (1) not calling him on the way to work, (2) not calling him back after we've hung up the phone, and (3) not "ambushing" him with R talk. I told him that I respect his boundaries but I am human, and sometimes my needs are going to conflict. I asked for grace in those moments, just like I try to give him grace when he is imperfect. I admit, I was defensive. I am so tired of hearing my H say that I have to be perfect when he won't even try to give me 10% of what I need.
We ended up settling on the idea that what boundaries are for him, security is for me, and we agreed to discuss it later.
A few nights after MC, we went on a date. We had already decided to have our talk the following day, but we hadn't worked out any of the particulars. At the end of the date (which was completely mediocre -- H put forth no effort whatsoever to meet my need for physical affection), H asked me if we could have our talk on the phone. I said that I would prefer to talk in person. H dug in his heels and it got awkward. I told him it was fine, we could talk on the phone. When we left the restaurant, H was acting funny. I asked if he was ok, and he said yes, he was just afraid that I would call him after he left. Well, that sentiment is starting to become quite the self-fulfilling prophecy, H! Glad to know you're there for me. [/sarcasm]
I think we know where this is going. I panicked. I called him. And when he didn't answer, I called again. I think in all I called 7 times and left 4 messages. (I am really embarrassed to admit that. I have NEVER done anything like that before.) H finally called me back and spewed at me like he has never spewed before. H said he would call me back in the morning. When he called the next morning, we agreed that we just needed to forget that the previous night happened and move forward without discussing it.
I'm out of time, but I have more to update (and I DESPERATELY need advice, as I had a little breakdown today and I am wondering know if I know what "done" feels like . . .). I'll come back and post more in a little while!
Ok, back for part 2 . . .
We ended up having our planned conversation by phone later in the day. We agreed in the abstract to work on boundaries and security in parallel, but to give each other some time to think abt exactly what that would look like before coming back to together and sharing our ideas.
So I let him be for a few days and then we had lunch. We had good conversation but I felt that he was not himself. I asked him if he had really let go of what had happened the other night after dinner. He said that he had and asked me why I thought he hadn't. I told him that I thought I noticed a change in how he interacted with me. H denied holding a grudge but gave me the old, "Everything WAS okay until you said something!" bit, which I have to say I don't believe for one second. We had a little argument at the table and then he just got up and left in the middle of the conversation. The whole thing went from pleasant lunch to walking out in less than 5 minutes. I followed him out in to the parking lot and he just kept walking. He shouted back to me that we would talk later. I sent him a very short email asking if we could schedule a time to talk. He never replied.
I saw him a few hours later at kid exchange, and he was still upset. He told me that he nothing to give but said that he would call me in the morning on his way to work. (His suggestion -- and he wonders why I have trouble understanding his boundaries???) He called as promised and we had a decent conversation -- mutual apologies, a recommitment to working on boundaries/security and an agreement to clarify expectations in a later conversation. I asked H if he could offer any reassurance and he said he needed time to process. Later in the day, he called me back to let me know that he loved me, and we when we met for kid exchange he got out of the car and gave me a hug. I told him thank you and that he was doing all the right things.
And then I let him be again for a few days. We planned the follow-up conversation for Sunday night. On Sunday he texted me and asked if we could meet for coffee in the morning instead because he was really tired. I said that would be fine.
Aaaaand I'm out of time again -- be back to wrap up soon!