looks like my first thread is locked. don't know if I'm posting the right link to see Pt 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...121#Post2505121
Here's the last posting from my old thread
Hold on...epiphany alert
One of the reasons she doesn't respect me is because I run to her and try to fix her every time she has one of these meltdowns. She knows I'll drop everything to try to talk her through this because I don't want her to feel "isolated" from me. Yet she says she draws no comfort off my presence. The more I allow her to berate me, the less respect she feels. Am I getting warm?
I feel for you! I am having a really hard time with detaching too. It is so hard to NOT want to be there and help and "fix" things. My H and I are not living together so that helps my situation and I know you don't have that, but all of the vets are giving you some GREAT advice (which I am taking particular note of as well). Hang in there and have a great time in Austin. Focus on YOU!
Rzr,
Ahhh...glad you got a new thread as I wanted to respond to your recent post.
Here's the last posting from my old thread
Hold on...epiphany alert
One of the reasons she doesn't respect me is because I run to her and try to fix her every time she has one of these meltdowns. She knows I'll drop everything to try to talk her through this because I don't want her to feel "isolated" from me. Yet she says she draws no comfort off my presence. The more I allow her to berate me, the less respect she feels. Am I getting warm?
Absolut-freaking-yes!!!! Why would you take such abuse from someone else...much less your own wife??!
Thanks Dawn70. Heading out in the morning. I'm looking forward to it; if nothing else to get a chance to breathe. My W tried to guilt me out of the trip during her meltdown, but once she recovered she told me I deserved the trip.
I'm going to try and make it a NC trip with my W. I'll text her when I get there just so she knows I'm not a flaming ball of wreckage on I-35, but hopefully that'll be the last contact until I get back Sunday evening.
Here's the last posting from my old thread
Hold on...epiphany alert
One of the reasons she doesn't respect me is because I run to her and try to fix her every time she has one of these meltdowns. She knows I'll drop everything to try to talk her through this because I don't want her to feel "isolated" from me. Yet she says she draws no comfort off my presence. The more I allow her to berate me, the less respect she feels. Am I getting warm?
yes. I realize it feels opposite to common sense...but the more you try to "fix" the worse you make it. Become more confident in yourself that thi gs will work out. Also by not fixing things you show W you believe she can do it. In general fixing is another way of controlling. My 2 cents ...let go. Let things break if they have to. Btw expect her to try and hook you into behavi g like that when you stop doing it initially. Resist the urge to fsll in with that.
I set up an unhealthy pattern early in our M. I went from home to college to marriage without breathing. I never gave myself time to get established as an independent adult and as a man.
I took the "happy wife, happy life" thing too far and hooked my happiness to her. Since she can't make me happy (nobody can) I became resentful, lazy and directionless. I made everything about keeping her happy. When she would have meltdowns about anything, I would attend to her and try to make her feel better. Sometimes it worked, but now she thinks she's entitled to that.
No wonder she doesn't respect me.
I'm on a roll today. The insights are coming hot and heavy. Can't wait to see what I figure out cruising the plains of Texas
Here's the last posting from my old thread
Hold on...epiphany alert
One of the reasons she doesn't respect me is because I run to her and try to fix her every time she has one of these meltdowns. She knows I'll drop everything to try to talk her through this because I don't want her to feel "isolated" from me. Yet she says she draws no comfort off my presence. The more I allow her to berate me, the less respect she feels. Am I getting warm?
I set up an unhealthy pattern early in our M. I went from home to college to marriage without breathing. I never gave myself time to get established as an independent adult and as a man.
I took the "happy wife, happy life" thing too far and hooked my happiness to her. Since she can't make me happy (nobody can) I became resentful, lazy and directionless. I made everything about keeping her happy. When she would have meltdowns about anything, I would attend to her and try to make her feel better. Sometimes it worked, but now she thinks she's entitled to that.
You will get a
lot out of reading "Co-Dependent No More," methinks.
Whaddaya know? I can be taught!
Now that you realize the dynamic, you have an opportunity to PRACTICE (in your head, or -- even better -- out loud when no one is around to hear you) how you are going to handle it next time she pulls this VERY predictable string.
"Wow, I'm sorry to hear all of that. It certainly wasn't my intent to upset you. Look, I'd love to talk but I've got someplace I've gotta be. Talk more later?"
or, if texting:
"I've decided I'm no longer willing to engage in these text wars with you. If it's important, we can discuss it in person, calmly, and if it's not then this is just a cheeseless tunnel and not a good use of my energy. Gotta run."
Or some such.
^^^ Agreed ... and just to add some advice once you do this ... grab the Spew Jacket and get ready for her to test you on this boundary because she will ... very hard.
^^^ Agreed ... and just to add some advice once you do this ... grab the Spew Jacket and get ready for her to test you on this boundary because she will ... very hard.
Yep. Bank on it.
^^^ Agreed ... and just to add some advice once you do this ... grab the Spew Jacket and get ready for her to test you on this boundary because she will ... very hard.
Yep. Bank on it.
She did yesterday. That's where I folded. When it became clear I was going to the gym instead of listening to her, that's when she started screaming that she hated me and I ruined her life.
I managed to leave, get to the gym. She called me 10 minutes later, berating me for walking out on her. Like a fool, I got back in the car and came home.
I started strong, but didn't finish strong. More separation is needed clearly.
Yeah, Rzr...your W is acting like a petulant 2-year old who didn't get her way and she's stomping her feet. You've been around the block (or two) with your kiddos. Ignore the tantrum and it'll die a natural death by stepping away from it.
Focus, focus!
You hit the nail on the head. She actually kicked something last night. Never saw her do that before. I'm sure she'll give me another opportunity to DB tonight
Rzr
You atleast have figured out a big part of this puzzle. A woman can not respect a man who she can walk over ... this is you. Now we are not saying to steam roll her byu any means .. but you are a "Nice Guy" ... a "Fixer" ... I am too ... and its a thing we HAVE to change about ourselves.
When you walk like you did ... you know your phone is going to blow up.... Dont reply to the TM, do not answer the call ... I can tell you its tough .... funny story .. I started doing this .. knew she would blow my stuff up .. so I let the phone go off .. ignored it and continued working ... my phone at work rings and I instintively pick it up and say "Goodmorning...BLa Bla Company this is Cali how can I help you?" The voice on the other end shocked me with "You can help me by picking up your damn phone ... spew spew spew" I actually laugh now .... I politely told her I would discuss things with her when we could be civil... notice I did not say "When you calm down" in my experience this just put her into orbit and more rage.
You have this .. its not easy .. but setting boundaries and letting her know she is not going to treat you like chit anymore will actually start you both on the road of respect. She can not love you if she does not start respecting you.
I thought I was doing OK on the DBing, but this is a new level. Hard for sure but necessary. The hatefulness from her is actually a new development. She's in an anger stage about her sitch for sure
Rzr,
Starsky has an ample supply of Spew Jackets at his warehouse that he can ship to you by the pallet.
I politely told her I would discuss things with her when we could be civil... notice I did not say "When you calm down" in my experience this just put her into orbit and more rage.
I like that phrasing. I'm stealing it!!
Rzr,
Starsky has an ample supply of Spew Jackets at his warehouse that he can ship to you by the pallet.
That's true! Me and Morty Seinfeld invented the BELTLESS spew jacket, in fact!
Lol! I coulda used that last night! Spew jacket. Great idea
Home now. I had to postpone the Austin trip because of work. Not a big deal, my heart wasn't in it anyway. I'll do it later.
The W is somewhat sweeter (she's not yelling) and she's curling up, but she's sad and crying a lot. I'm detecting a lot of guilt. She's very up front that she's considering actually sleeping with OM when he comes to town next month. She feels starved for passion and she has no comfort with or attraction to me. I can tell she's deeply conflicted about how she feels. Turns out he hasn't texted her in 6 days. May explain something about her emotional state. I'm listening, looking in her eyes (when she's willing to meet my gaze). Staying calm. I'm keeping my reactions calm and I'm not arguing with what she says. God, this is so hard.
I left briefly to pick up D15 from skating. When I got back she had stopped crying and actually smiled when she talked to me. She apologized again for how messed up she is and how hard she's been on me. Jekyll and Hyde much?
You allow her to talk about opening her legs for another man while you "look in her eyes" and "listening"???!
Wow. Just . . .wow
I'm afraid I can't help you her. Good luck. I don't do cuckold.
Starsky
Yeah, I got insane for a minute. I'm at the gym now. She's calling me every 5 minutes. I'm not picking up.
God I'm tired.
And when I get back, she's actually chipper, talking about how she likes herself too much to cheat, and apologizing again, and how she's mad at OM. I feel like I'm on a damn yoyo
I get a strange reaction sometimes. When she's in a decent frame of mind, I've attacked the OM. She used to get defensive, but tonight she seemed to listen attentively and not get mad. I wonder what that means? Probably nothing, but I'm having a hell of a time really hearing what she's saying.
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking with that. I guess because I try not to believe anything she says on the surface, I was trying to listen and get the real meaning behind what she was saying. Made sense at the time
Rzr,
Damn! You're like a wet noodle with no backbone. C'mon!
When your W starts to talk about the OM, put up a hand and say, "I will not listen to you talk about the OM for it is very disrespectful to me as your husband." Walk away.
When W tries to mosey up and cuddle on the sofa, gently remove her hands/arms from you and then move to another chair.
You MUST draw a line in the sand to convos about the OM...OMG, even talking about sleeping with him to your face!!! Where's your backbone, Rzr.
There's a time to listen and a time to be very firm.
Seriously, I don't understand why you've postponed your bike trip to Austin for you were really looking forward to it. I am wondering if you're using work as a cop-out when in reality you're doing this for W since she's made the moves on you.
I get a strange reaction sometimes. When she's in a decent frame of mind, I've attacked the OM. She used to get defensive, but tonight she seemed to listen attentively and not get mad. I wonder what that means? Probably nothing, but I'm having a hell of a time really hearing what she's saying.
Zip your mouth about the OM. No more attacking the OM for it will draw W closer to the OM...not you. There's a reason why we all look past the OW/OM for they're nothing.
Rzr,
Damn! You're like a wet noodle with no backbone. C'mon!
When your W starts to talk about the OM, put up a hand and say, "I will not listen to you talk about the OM for it is very disrespectful to me as your husband." Walk away.
When W tries to mosey up and cuddle on the sofa, gently remove her hands/arms from you and then move to another chair.
You MUST draw a line in the sand to convos about the OM...OMG, even talking about sleeping with him to your face!!! Where's your backbone, Rzr.
There's a time to listen and a time to be very firm.
Seriously, I don't understand why you've postponed your bike trip to Austin for you were really looking forward to it. I am wondering if you're using work as a cop-out when in reality you're doing this for W since she's made the moves on you.
No, the work thing came from people too high up to say no to. It's happened before. One of the reasons I'm looking for a new job.
Yeah, I lost my head for a bit last night. I THOUGHT I was trying to listen and pick out what she's trying to say, (don't believe what they say and all that) but I was yet again being a doormat. I finally put a stop to it, but I had let it run on too long.
I'm figuring out how F'ed up and codependent this relationship really is. She didn't lose her respect for me because I didn't handle my parents well, she lost respect for me because I let her walk all over me from the beginning.
She'll say we're distant, and want me to be around for her, and then when I am around for her, she says stuff guaranteed to push me away...
Back on the horse, try again today.
Rzr ... I have been there. You feel if you are there for her emotionally its the way to get back in her "good graces" I assure you ... this will bring you months/years of pain .
The Wet Noodle/ Back bone thing is spot on. If she brings up OM, at that point you put her in her place and say "The A you are HAVING (not had) is disrespectful to me, our marriage and our family and I will not live in an open marriage" Then you promptly leave that torpedo in her head and leave as it blows up. She will kick and scream like a 2 year old ... but hopefully respects you are being a man about it and making a stand.
She does not feel passionate about you because you have allowed yourself to be a doormat, she does not see you as Lancelot ... I realize these are some harsh things to think about, but you need the 2x4 here.... I needed the same one. I have read some books aimed at just this issue (can not post them here) ... but you need to rebuild your self esteem and get your mind right. GAL, with this in mind .... do things that build you up ... I went as far to buy a Harley .. always wanted one but she said no .. and I said yes maam ... I mean WTF? That was not living .. that was serving.
Don't worry about what she is saying/doing ... she is all pins and needles on the OM, let that run its course and use your gift of time to rebuild yourself.
OM Just sent her a "hey you" text. I caught it on her phone before she saw it and deleted it. She won't ever know but I will.
This is war.
Hey, Rzr.
Calm down. This is not the time to get hot-headed.
Remember your goals?
Focus, focus.
Go out for a walk or something to calm down.
Oh I'm calm. I'm smiling. She won't ever know I did it and he'll just resend the text.
Didn't mean anything in the long run, but it feels good to return fire, even symbolically.
She's napping right now so I thought I'd journal a bit.
I know the text thing was childish, but that was for me. She'll never know I did it. I can't stop her from texting w/ him, but I don't have to make it easy.
We've actually had a decent day and she's been in a good mood. We had a productive R talk this morning. One of my things I need to work on for me is my assertiveness. Basically she just doesn't see me as assertive or take charge, and that's one of the reasons she's not attracted to me. I asked her what she considered assertive. The good news is that I've been doing a lot of those things; I had the presence of mind not to point that out to her.
She's actually kind of angry at OM right now. He hasn't texted her in 7 days (well, he did, but I don't need to tell her that). She talks about F'ing with his mind the way he's F'ed with hers. I do say I like the "take charge of herself" W better than the victimy one I've seen lately. He'll say things that get her heart racing, not overtly sexual but bold and flirty, and then disappear for days at a time. Basically she knows in her head that he's a "scoundrel" (her words, my terms for him are unprintable) but her heart and her hormones won't listen. The only thing I told her was that my issue with him is not so much that I'm worried about her physically cheating (which is a clear point of no return for me), but that until she gets him right in her head, there's not much chance of her reconnecting with me. He didn't cause our root problems, but he's a huge wedge to us working on them.
It would almost be easier, I think, if we were physically separated. I'm having a real hard time being attentive (I want to reward when she's calm) and being detached at the same time. I'm mostly good at keeping my emotions in check. Attacking the OM is a bad habit I need to kick, big time. I try not to mention him at all, but every talk we have, she mentions him. She talks over and over about he's not the root cause of our issues, but she won't stop talking about him. It would almost be easier if I lived somewhere else and could just go dark.
I don't know how else to word this, sufficed to say that it's kind of gross that you did that and now you're smug about it.
If you want to be with your W, she has to choose you. She has to want to be with you, willing and ready and able to work on your M.
She cannot choose that when you're "making her" think the situation is different than it is. It's dishonest.
In my opinion, it would have been a better moral move for you to say, "I've seen this; what's going on?", rather than delete it and be creepily delighted that you got rid of it and she'll never know.
You need to be a man worth being with, not someone that's tricked her into choosing you.
It would almost be easier, I think, if we were physically separated.
It would be different, but not easier. You would be away from your kids. Whatever you do, do not be the one to move out.
Learn detachment. Learn that the work you will do on yourself for yourself can be done with or without your W, near or far away.
I try not to mention him at all, but every talk we have, she mentions him. She talks over and over about he's not the root cause of our issues, but she won't stop talking about him. It would almost be easier if I lived somewhere else and could just go dark.
Or, you know,
you could always try doing what like EVERYONE ABOVE ^^^^ has suggested you do when she talks about him. You know . . . that.
Starsky
I don't know how else to word this, sufficed to say that it's kind of gross that you did that and now you're smug about it.
If you want to be with your W, she has to choose you. She has to want to be with you, willing and ready and able to work on your M.
She cannot choose that when you're "making her" think the situation is different than it is. It's dishonest.
In my opinion, it would have been a better moral move for you to say, "I've seen this; what's going on?", rather than delete it and be creepily delighted that you got rid of it and she'll never know.
You need to be a man worth being with, not someone that's tricked her into choosing you.
I am the man worth being with!!! She just refuses to see it because I'm competing with a fantasy!!
I know, it wasn't the best move, relatively harmless, but not how I need to play this out. It felt good for a while, but it's not worthy of me. I know that. I guess my frustration level is really high this week.
Back to detaching.
I am the man worth being with!!! She just refuses to see it because I'm competing with a fantasy!!
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. That is the SINGLE worst thing in the world that will tank your sitch faster than a rocket on fire.
Go back and read that six times and then tell me you don't see what's wrong with this! Oh my goodness!
I know better than to say that to her, I guess I'm missing the point.
The point is that you did things in your M that pushed your wife away. She felt neglected and [insert other emotions here] to the point that -- right or wrong -- she felt she had to find another man to fill the emotional void.
How in the holy heck can you say that you "are the man to be with" and act like she's just too stupid to see it?
You have A LOT to prove to her. Start by being humble and knowing that you've got work to do on yourself. Then stop deleting texts from the OM and being self-satisfied you deceived her about it; and yes, a lie by omission is still a lie!
I see what you mean, Rzrback, and you are right about competing with a fantasy. But don't let that mindset cause you to give up. She may not see you are the man for her, until she comes out of the fog. Until then, you know what you need to do, right?
Rzr .... just a point on deleting that message
Ok .. OM was hanging himself going 6 days with no text. You delete this ... now when they do talk .. he will be like I textd you on Friday and you ignored me .. She will think .. no I did'nt ... wait .. Husband nuked the TM and is trying to sabotage the one good thing I have in my life, how many other messages did he delete ... I could have been talking to OM all week if not for H ... now YOU are the enemy and the one she is pissed off at ... not OM for 6 days of radio silence
Let the A run its course, use the time to work on you ... I hope nothing comes out of this "small" act as you may see it .. but it very well could be a huge issue if exposed.
And yeah .. STOP listening to her gush about OM.... that is a respectable quality in a friend .. not a SPOUSE
Unfortunately there may always be a fantasy. You are a flesh and blood H.
A H who needs to could choose to concentrate on himself, a H who could choose to Get A Life and a H who could dance to his own tune.
Sandi is wise, she advises you well.
And you could choose to follow the advice given or stay stuck. Your choice. Yours.
Which tune will you dance to?
Yours or Ws. It is within you to do this, to make this choice. Once made then it will be forward movement for you. No stopping.
Turn your phone off, choose to give yourself a break. Do a 180.
Strength
Vanilla
The point is that you did things in your M that pushed your wife away. She felt neglected and [insert other emotions here] to the point that -- right or wrong -- she felt she had to find another man to fill the emotional void.
How in the holy heck can you say that you "are the man to be with" and act like she's just too stupid to see it?
You have A LOT to prove to her. Start by being humble and knowing that you've got work to do on yourself. Then stop deleting texts from the OM and being self-satisfied you deceived her about it; and yes, a lie by omission is still a lie!
OK, I get your point now. I have been open and humble and owned my role in this mess, from the beginning. Of course our discussions go in a circle. I tell her I don't want to talk about OM and she reminds me what I screwed up to get here. She still blames me ultimately, and won't own up to the fact that while she can't control her feelings, she does have control over what she does with OM.
Hopefully the text thing won't blow up in my face. It wasn't that smart. Chances are it's OK. My wife isn't very techno-savvy, and she does NOT know that I can get into her phone. I've made sure of that. But it was done for short-term satisfaction and not for long-term good. I get that now.
That's true, Sandi. I need to continue to work on myself. I know this is not a sprint, but I let my frustration get the best of me.
Today was a good day with her, and those are almost harder to handle than the bad ones. Because I'm not as clear about how to act around her (I want to reward good behavior). That's and I know the other shoe will drop eventually and she'll be back in the hole.
You could choose to run your own life and let W run hers.
Vanilla
You could choose to run your own life and let W run hers.
Vanilla
And that's almost the hardest thing of all. I want to steer her in the right direction and I know I can't.
It's obvious I didn't have a very good DBing week. Tomorrow is a new day and I'll try again.
No more mentioning the OM and if she starts to gush, shut it down.
If she starts getting angry and spewing at me, sshut it down.
Continue working on me and not worry about W so much. Thinsg will settle down.
Well, they may not for quite a while, but
you will be better at handling it.
No, definitely a marathon
You could choose to run your own life and let W run hers.
Vanilla
And that's almost the hardest thing of all. I want to steer her in the right direction and I know I can't.
It is the vital thing, only W can steer W.
Do it. Try is an excuse word, a weak word, a word we use when we set ourselves up for explaining failure. Replace try with do as in I will do this today not I will try again. PMA. Put all of your energy into it. It is hard work but worth it, if you read the wonderful successes in some threads it is really worth it.
Stay strong
Vanilla
With my bad DBing week, I decided to read the 37 rules again. Sometimes it helps me to rewrite what I read in my own words. Here's some rules I came up with that I'm trying to follow daily. They're man-centric, but many can apply to women as well.
1. Don't beg, plead, or argue. Nothing drives away a woman more than neediness.
2. Unless your wife is a sociopath, you have some role in the breakdown of your marriage. Man up and accept responsibility for things that are your doing. Own your mistakes.
3. The first step in dealing with your situation is to accept that you only have control over yourself. You have no control over your wife, her emotions, or her choices.
4. Work on yourself. If you drink too much, take steps to stop. If you're out of shape, get back in shape. If you have a temper, learn to count to 10 and reign it in. Go to individual counseling if necessary.
5. Believe nothing that your wife says. She will find anything she can to justify why she feels the way she does. My wife even criticized me for reading books more than she did. She is lost, hurting and confused and will speak as negatively as possible. She will be cruel at times. Count on it.
6. Some call this a roller coaster ride, I call it a yo-yo. Your wife will be angry at you one day, and affectionate the next. That mood can change by the hour sometimes. Do not hang on everything your wife does or says, analyzing everything that's positive or negative. You'll drive yourself crazy.
7. The bad news is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. You will dig into new reserves of patience that you didn't even know you had. Take it day by day.
8. Discipline is the thing. You will need to stay mentally disciplined. It's vital that you remain calm, confident and positive while your wife rides out her emotional storm.
9. Increase your sexual market value. Lose weight and get in shape. Update your wardrobe and hair. Start smelling better. Be outgoing and interesting. Work on maintaining eye contact when you talk to people, especially women. Pick up new activities or rediscover an old one. It helps if that hobby has a masculine edge, i.e. martial arts, sports, or shooting. Your wife will start noticing that you're more attractive and, perhaps more important, she'll realize that other women will find you more attractive as well.
10. Work on becoming the best man you can be. Be a better father to your children. Start taking care of projects around the house that you might have blown off before. Be calm, strong, positive and masculine at all times, regardless of what your wife is feeling.
11. These changes cannot be for your wife. They must be for you! You must want to be a better man for it to stick. Your wife will see through anything you do that's intended solely to get her back. Look at this as basic training to prepare for the remainder of your life. It will suck going through it, but you will come out on the other side a stronger person.
12. If you think that there's any magic words or deeds that will get your wife back, forget it. The only thing that can (not will) influence her to choose you again is persistent change. She needs to feel safe in order to be attracted to you. She's built an emotional wall to protect herself from further hurt. There are no explosives that can bring that wall down all at once. The wall has to be dismantled brick by brick.
13. Don't think that your wife is ignoring you. She's watching you like a hawk. Consistency, consistency, consistency
3 above
3 above
Vanilla
3 is what I forgot the most this week
Rzr,
That's an interesting way of reframing Sandi's list. Whatever works for you!
I do see a lot of parallels between you and HP. I must be careful to check who's thread I am in before composing a post!
You're doing really good. Sure, there'll be some hiccups along the way. I think you're slowly starting to understand DBing in general. Keep going!
Thanks Wonka. I'm not overly proud of how I did this week, but I'll just keep going. What I posted was not to replace Sandi's rules, but rewriting things like this helps it solidify in my head. I included a couple of things that someone in another forum gave to me as well.
My weekend with her has actually been somewhat pleasant. She's not exactly affectionate, but I see glimmers of the old W. She seems to be happier with herself this weekend too.
At Thanksgiving next week I'll be saying a silent prayer of thanks for you and all the posters here. This place is my haven right now
Rzr,
That's an interesting way of reframing Sandi's list. Whatever works for you!
I do see a lot of parallels between you and HP. I must be careful to check who's thread I am in before composing a post!
You're doing really good. Sure, there'll be some hiccups along the way. I think you're slowly starting to understand DBing in general. Keep going!
Rzr,
Thanks Wonka. I'm not overly proud of how I did this week, but I'll just keep going.
We ALL have done things that we weren't proud of, stumbled, fumbled, f*cked up royally, fallen short, etc. Don't be too hard on yourself. Read and learn.
We're at home enjoying a rainy fall afternoon. Getting ready to watch to Ole Miss game.
Been a pretty good weekend. She said to me a little while ago that she was happy that I didn't leave town and that she felt good. She also told me that she was actually relieved that OM hasn't contacted her in a few days. She's starting to see how his contact, mundane as it might be, is screwing with her emotions, and how she feels like it's helping her get him out of her system. I know better than to hang too much on any one statement, but I see little glimmers of sanity here and there.
Last night the dishwasher broke and I jumped in there and fixed it, like a boss
. One of her complaints about me was that I've not often been a go-getting, take charge and get things done kind of guy. Proved her wrong last night. She didn't come out and thank me, but she's been warmer today. I'll take any small victory I can get.
I screwed up a bit. We were curled up together watching the game. We fell asleep. I woke up at one point and tried to initiate sex. She told me no. I didn't press the issue. She's not mad and she's still curled up with me on bed. She hasn't mentioned it yet. I guess I misread her signals again. I'm not showing any disappointment
She returned from the bathroom later with a smug look on her face. She knows two men want to sleep with her. I think she's feeling a little sexual power right now.
Wife still relatively pleasant, though not affectionate with me. It's almost like she's doing her own little 180 on me. I can tell that she connects with me more than she says she does, based on the way she looks at me, but I'm not about to point that out to her.
I felt bad about trying to initiate sex today, though she hasn't mentioned it. If she does, I'll pass it off as "I got horny, I took a shot. Sue me".
I spoke with one of our mutual friends today, he basically told me to do what I was doing, even though he's never read DR or DB. He advised me to let the situation with the OM play itself out. He didn't betray any confidences, but he was sure that there's never been a PA. I never really believed there was either. He reminded me to take it day by day and not worry about the future. One thing he said that stuck with me: "The bottom may drop out one day, but it didn't today."
Goals for the coming week:
Not mention OM at all, and shut down her discussion of OM if she starts gushing about him.
Shut things down if she gets panicky and abusive like she did last week.
No more initiating affection. She needs to do some of the heavy lifting here, and she clearly does not want to right now.
I was able to demonstrate this week that I am the assertive, take-charge guy she says she needs. Continue to do more in that area this week. Continue to GAL.
Do. Or do not. There is no try.
A mantra I've started repeating to myself in the shower:
Every morning that I wake up is another chance to be my wife's husband, my children's father, and my own man.
A mantra I've started repeating to myself in the shower:
Every morning that I wake up is another chance to be my wife's husband, my children's father, and my own man.
Awesome list. But you've got it backwards.
Good morning Starsky
Yeah, I wasn't thinking in terms of priority, but you're right. It just sounded like it flowed better the way I said it
Talked to the wife of a good friend from church today. Turns out she had the same experience with her XH that I'm going through with my W. She said she could have written my story, dialogue and all.
She was also a regular on here when she was going through her sitch.
It's funny how in the midst of so much pain you can often find so much blessing.
Rzr,
Forget sex, forget cuddling, forget your pecker!
Stay focused. Be upbeat around W and take charge of stuff. Like organizing outings with kids, fix things w/o being told to do so, be pleasant, and be comfortable in your own skin.
Hey, I'd still plan on the biking trip to Austin anyway if I were you.
Yeah, I'm looking at the best time to reschedule. And yes, I let the wrong head do my thinking yesterday.
She got panicky about Thanksgiving today. She's afraid that I won't handle my parents well this week. I just told her, "The parents are my mess to clean up; I got this."
She doesn't believe me, but that's OK right now. She did calm down a little bit after that. My actions will speak louder than words anyway.
Damn! I did it again. I attacked the OM. I wasn't as strident as I have been in the past (in other words, not obscene), but I did talk about he's getting a charge off of texting with my W, often when he's sitting next to his own W. I spoke about how he seems so put together and in charge (which she finds so attractive), but he's really a weak person getting an ego charge off this dangerous stuff he's doing with my W.
Those things are all true, but i didn't need to say them to HER.
3rd MC session in a couple of hours. I'll post afterwards.
Rzr,
I want to leave something in your mind for each time you open your mouth to "attack" the OM.
Each time you do that, it just makes W feel drawn more to the OM and defend him more. Attacking H, in her mind, isn't attractive at all. Be calm and cool like 007 with a stirred martini. To aid you, pretend that OM doesn't exist in your mind at all.
I looked past Ms. Wonka's OW and I never, never brought up her name. Still to this day, I still do not freakin' acknowledge the OW. She is like a fingernail to the chalkboard. That's how much I hate her!
I digress...
About the MC, do you feel that you and W are getting anything out of it considering that she's in an EA with OM?
I like the 007 reference. I've always been a James Bond fan.
We were having a halfway productive R talk last night; about our actual issues, not the OM. He got mentioned somehow. I noticed that she's been speaking in more detached, introspective tones about OM. She wonders what it means about herself that she's so attracted to a man that she knows is bad news. She no longer sounds like a teenager when she talks about him. When I saw that she doesn't seem as infatuated with him as she used to be, I succumbed to temptation and tried to go in for the kill. I kept things calm, I wasn't angry or strident, but I was pretty clear that I see him as a charming-looking man but ultimately a weak little boy. Still bad judgement on my part. I had managed to go almost an entire weekend without uttering his name.
We've only been to MC twice so far. We're scheduled through the end of this year with the therapist. Insurance covers it so I'm not too worried about the cost. I want to see what comes out of our sessions, maybe something will happen there that will encourage my W to resolve that issue. Ultimately she's going to have to do it herself anyway.
Ironically enough, OM JUST NOW texted her. I'm not going to interfere this time. His habit of texting her right before our MC sessions is really starting to piss me off.
Ironically enough, OM JUST NOW texted her. I'm not going to interfere this time. His habit of texting her right before our MC sessions is really starting to piss me off.
In the safety of MC sessions, it is appropriate to bring up concerns about the OM and how you feel it is incredibly disrespectful to have a third party in the M. As a matter of fact, you're not willing to live in an open marriage. Your MC therapist needs to know this so s/he can work with this information. I hope this MC specializes in infidelity and is SBT (solution-based therapy) based on Gottman principles.
Rzr,
Thanks for posting on my thread! I meant to come check out your sitch earlier; been a busy couple of weeks. Wanted to comment on your thread; bear in mind these are just my thoughts. Take what you need, ignore the rest; just my thoughts:
Scanned & read through both of your threads; you are getting good advice from Starsky, Wonka, Cali and others!
The biggest issue here is her lack of respect and complete disrespect to you about the details of OM and her intent. What the vets are telling you is true; DO NOT tolerate anymore talk about the OM. She has put you into the "Friend Zone" and thinks it's OK to discuss this cr@p like you are one of her girlfriends or something! To make it worse, she is actually telling you she is considering a full PA...basically trying to force and open marriage sitch on you! Need to 180 on this asap and hold to it! Also, if I understand correctly, this guy travels a lot on business. Sounds like he could be pretty set financially; be careful of potential hypergamy motives.
Are you still GAl'ing? Going to the gym? Got involved in any hobbies or activities for YOU??
As someone stated earlier, she is feeding off the fact 2 men are "fighting" over her! She is getting validation, and the more she gets and continues to get, your sitch will not improve! Remove yourself from this. Get on with your GAL and move forward for you. Be polite and respectful; hit her with truth darts when warranted; otherwise, pull yourself back & detach from her! I agree as someone posted earlier; as long as she is involved with OM, she cannot have any relationship with you (sex, cuddling, affection, etc). You are Plan A only; you will not be Plan B!
Not sure your financial sitch or how you guys divide things (and not my business), however, some things to think about from the financial & support aspect:
I notice the texting stuff bothers you....my question is, who pays for that cell phone? If it is hers on her own plan, then fine. If it is you on a joint plan, why continue to allow this on your dime/account? Cut that phone line off! Even if you are under contract, you can still kill the line. Make sure you have the pw to the account and lock her out. She is then forced to pay for her own EA!
Once you have finally had enough of the BS:
What kind of support are you giving her? Is it basic support, just the necessities, or is she still privy to full access of a joint account? Can she still shop & "have fun" on your dime? Why fully support and give to someone beyond basics (shelter & food) if they give nothing in return. Secure your funds and provide basic support only. Don't pay her bills (CC, car insurance, etc...). In short, if she doesn't want to be a wife, then she doesn't deserve the amenities that comes with being a wife! This also allows you to stockpile monies in the event everything just goes south and the inevitable occurs. And I wouldn't keep it in an account anywhere that's traceable; cash it out and stash it somewhere safe!
Hang in there man; take care of yourself! Like I said at the beginning, just my thoughts and opinions; do what is best for YOU!
Az
Nicely put, Az!!! Nice to see you offering another perspective here.
Good to hear from you Az! I appreciate your input!
The biggest issue here is her lack of respect and complete disrespect to you about the details of OM and her intent. What the vets are telling you is true; DO NOT tolerate anymore talk about the OM. She has put you into the "Friend Zone" and thinks it's OK to discuss this cr@p like you are one of her girlfriends or something! To make it worse, she is actually telling you she is considering a full PA...basically trying to force and open marriage sitch on you! Need to 180 on this asap and hold to it! Also, if I understand correctly, this guy travels a lot on business. Sounds like he could be pretty set financially; be careful of potential hypergamy motives.
Absolutely. The PA thing was panic-attack spewing earlier last week. I shut that down. I'm not overly worried at this point about a PA. If she does cross that line, then I'm done with her, and she knows that. The EA, bad as it is, has not yet progressed to anything I can't get past in the long run. And yes, based on his title, I'm sure he makes more than I do.
Are you still GAl'ing? Going to the gym? Got involved in any hobbies or activities for YOU??
Yep, still GALing
The silver lining in this whole thing was that I lost 20 of the 35 pounds I wanted to lose anyway. The first 15 I lost before BD. I'm leveraging that to go to the gym and get ripped. I'm down to my weight when I graduated HS. If I come out of this with nothing else, I'll have a smokin' body :-)
I started in a new church that I really like. Ironically I visited for the first time the weekend before BD.
I'm looking for a new (better paying) job at a different company.
I have a side business as a flight instructor that I'm looking to expand a bit.
Spending more time with the kids.
Been reconnecting with some old friends that I haven't talked to in years
As someone stated earlier, she is feeding off the fact 2 men are "fighting" over her! She is getting validation, and the more she gets and continues to get, your sitch will not improve! Remove yourself from this. Get on with your GAL and move forward for you. Be polite and respectful; hit her with truth darts when warranted; otherwise, pull yourself back & detach from her! I agree as someone posted earlier; as long as she is involved with OM, she cannot have any relationship with you (sex, cuddling, affection, etc). You are Plan A only; you will not be Plan B!
I've stopped initiating any physical affection, no ILY's, no nothing. I've just been a friendly roommate. That's been a tough one for me since we live in the same house and are on relatively friendly terms. But yes, I'm going to have to pull back more than I have. That and attacking the OM in front of her are my two biggest DB weaknesses that I'm having to work on.
Not sure your financial sitch or how you guys divide things (and not my business), however, some things to think about from the financial & support aspect:
I notice the texting stuff bothers you....my question is, who pays for that cell phone? If it is hers on her own plan, then fine. If it is you on a joint plan, why continue to allow this on your dime/account? Cut that phone line off! Even if you are under contract, you can still kill the line. Make sure you have the pw to the account and lock her out. She is then forced to pay for her own EA!
Once you have finally had enough of the BS:
What kind of support are you giving her? Is it basic support, just the necessities, or is she still privy to full access of a joint account? Can she still shop & "have fun" on your dime? Why fully support and give to someone beyond basics (shelter & food) if they give nothing in return. Secure your funds and provide basic support only. Don't pay her bills (CC, car insurance, etc...). In short, if she doesn't want to be a wife, then she doesn't deserve the amenities that comes with being a wife! This also allows you to stockpile monies in the event everything just goes south and the inevitable occurs. And I wouldn't keep it in an account anywhere that's traceable; cash it out and stash it somewhere safe!
Hang in there man; take care of yourself! Like I said at the beginning, just my thoughts and opinions; do what is best for YOU!
Az
Thanks Az. I'm not quite to the point of worrying about the financial side. I'm seeing glimmers of sanity in her about the EA (recent development which I will detail in a post later this evening). I can't order her to go NC with him; she's going to have to do that in her own time and her own way. If there's not any progress in the next few weeks, I'll start tightening the screws in that area. I've already consulted an attorney, so I know where my legal and financial landmines are.
Thanks again Az!
Journaling tonight
Third MC session today. This one seemed to go well. We're finally starting to talk about our core issues. That didn't happen last week and W was really frustrated, even though we knew that the MC has to be systematic about our situation.
She did tell my W in no uncertain terms that she needed to end her R with OM. Obviously W didn't like that. The OM is providing her with emotional needs that I'm not meeting, and W is terrified to cut off that ray of sunshine. At the same time the therapist admonished me not to hassle W about it. She's going to have to take care of her mess with OM in her own way and in her own time. Me ordering her and giving ultimatums is not going to do any good. W is very clear on my boundaries.
We discussed the holidays a lot. That means spending time with my parents (whom she detests, and I'm no fan of), and it's causing a lot of stress. I'm taking the lead in setting and maintaining boundaries with my parents, including when we leave to head over to her family for TGiving part deux. The holidays are going to be one of my opportunities to prove that I can lead and protect her. To her credit, W did mention that she has noticed a lot of improvement in my assertiveness and leadership in the family.
We ended with an exercise where we each wrote down three things we need to have either more of or less of in our relationship. We then had to practice assertively asking for those things and actively listening. Interestingly enough, our three goals were almost identical.
Our homework for the week is to find something to laugh about with each other at least once a day. We found three things to laugh about before we even got home from MC. I'm keeping a log to take to next week's session.
W has been in an excellent mood today. She's almost been her old self. We had very brief discussion about OM, considering he texted her 10 minutes before we left for MC. She's angry with the OM. She's angry that he texts her these things that get her stirred up and then disappears for days at a time. She's angry at how he's screwing with her emotions. I managed not to join in the OM bashing. I'm still maintaining 180 and detachment as much as possible. No initiating affection, no ILY's, just strong, positive and independent.
I saw a bit of the sassy, defiant, strong woman I fell in love with. I know we have more rough days ahead, but this day was a win.
Rzr,
Love, love your IC!!!
She did tell my W in no uncertain terms that she needed to end her R with OM. Obviously W didn't like that. The OM is providing her with emotional needs that I'm not meeting, and W is terrified to cut off that ray of sunshine. At the same time the therapist admonished me not to hassle W about it. She's going to have to take care of her mess with OM in her own way and in her own time. Me ordering her and giving ultimatums is not going to do any good. W is very clear on my boundaries.
She's spot on with those main points we've been telling you here. The IC is a real keeper. I like her!
Yep, I'm a fan, too. She seems to have a good handle on things. Looks like we chose wisely.
She was nicer about it than I would have been, but she was very clear that her relationship with OM was preventing her from reconnecting with me.
The biggest issue here is her lack of respect and complete disrespect to you about the details of OM and her intent. What the vets are telling you is true; DO NOT tolerate anymore talk about the OM. She has put you into the "Friend Zone" and thinks it's OK to discuss this cr@p like you are one of her girlfriends or something! To make it worse, she is actually telling you she is considering a full PA...basically trying to force and open marriage sitch on you! Need to 180 on this asap and hold to it! Also, if I understand correctly, this guy travels a lot on business. Sounds like he could be pretty set financially; be careful of potential hypergamy motives.
Are you still GAl'ing? Going to the ? Got involved in any hobbies or activities for YOU??
As someone stated earlier, she is feeding off the fact 2 men are "fighting" over her! She is getting validation, and the more she gets and continues to get, your sitch will not improve! Remove yourself from this. Get on with your GAL and move forward for you. Be polite and respectful; hit her with truth darts when warranted; otherwise, pull yourself back & detach from her! I agree as someone posted earlier; as long as she is involved with OM, she cannot have any relationship with you (sex, cuddling, affection, etc). You are Plan A only; you will not be Plan B!
Az
I had never heard the word "hypergamy" before so I did some research. Came across some interesting material, much of which dovetails nicely with the concepts behind the 180 rules. I thought as long as I had a ring on it, I was "safe" in my marriage, but I'm starting to realize how beta I've been. Thought provoking! Thanks Az!
Thanks Az. I'm not quite to the point of worrying about the financial side.
You should be. You should also not be so dismissive that it is "only" an EA. Us men make that mistake all the time, and just ask the women on your thread -- an EA means more to a woman than a PA does.
Try to watch that you are on the right side of that fine line of "Confidence/Nonchalant." Confidence is best when it's earned from a place of strong preparation and an attitude of "I can handle it."
Starsky
I had never heard the word "hypergamy" before so I did some research. Came across some interesting material, much of which dovetails nicely with the concepts behind the 180 rules. I thought as long as I had a ring on it, I was "safe" in my marriage, but I'm starting to realize how beta I've been. Thought provoking! Thanks Az!
I was actually reluctant at first to pop that term in here because it can be viewed with a lot of negativity. However, it's one of those things that seems to be ingrained biologically. I have done a lot of reading and observing on my own and this is a very common issue with the younger generation and has roots in our generation. With the increase in the "disposable marriage" attitude and feeling of entitlement, it is my opinion that this plays a part in some WAS situations, albeit subconsciously. Understand, this doesn't have to be strictly based on financial status or the type; social status & personality also plays a large role and causes the person to be seen as higher value & exciting.
As far as being either "alpha" or "beta"; it's not one or the other; you have to maintain a mix of both traits in your frame in regards to LTR & Marriage.
Consider the typical "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech we get, or it's various forms. What does that really mean? Break down the key words:
Love = the loving, caring, connection type actions which gives comfort and bonding in the relationship = "beta" traits that release Oxytocin
In Love = Fun, exciting, charismatic, charming type actions which are attractive = "alpha" traits that release dopamine.
So, replace the key words in that statement and you get:
"I "oxytocin" you, but I'm not in "dopamine" with you". In other words, the loving bond is still there, but you don't excite me or attract me anymore. This explains the waffling between the BS & the OP; they still have the bond with the BS, but they are getting the dopamine rush from the OP.
In short, this is part of the "marriage is work". You have to stay engaged, keep it exciting, "date" each other continually and mix it up!
Thanks Az. I'm not quite to the point of worrying about the financial side.
You should be.
You should also not be so dismissive that it is "only" an EA. Us men make that mistake all the time, and just ask the women on your thread -- an EA means more to a woman than a PA does.^^^^^^This! Emotional connection is HUGE for them! this is why it is frequent that the wife is more distraught over the EA than a PA! An EA is more destructive in my opinion than a PA or a ONS due to how bad it erodes the connection & bond between the BS & the WAS. The longer the EA continues, the chance of a PA almost becomes inevitable! When I busted my X's second PA, they were already in the planning stages for him to visit our city & her!!!
Az
I was actually reluctant at first to pop that term in here because it can be viewed with a lot of negativity. However, it's one of those things that seems to be ingrained biologically. I have done a lot of reading and observing on my own and this is a very common issue with the younger generation and has roots in our generation. With the increase in the "disposable marriage" attitude and feeling of entitlement, it is my opinion that this plays a part in some WAS situations, albeit subconsciously. Understand, this doesn't have to be strictly based on financial status or the type; social status & personality also plays a large role and causes the person to be seen as higher value & exciting.
As far as being either "alpha" or "beta"; it's not one or the other; you have to maintain a mix of both traits in your frame in regards to LTR & Marriage.
Consider the typical "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech we get, or it's various forms. What does that really mean? Break down the key words:
Love = the loving, caring, connection type actions which gives comfort and bonding in the relationship = "beta" traits that release Oxytocin
In Love = Fun, exciting, charismatic, charming type actions which are attractive = "alpha" traits that release dopamine.
So, replace the key words in that statement and you get:
"I "oxytocin" you, but I'm not in "dopamine" with you". In other words, the loving bond is still there, but you don't excite me or attract me anymore. This explains the waffling between the BS & the OP; they still have the bond with the BS, but they are getting the dopamine rush from the OP.
In short, this is part of the "marriage is work". You have to stay engaged, keep it exciting, "date" each other continually and mix it up!
Damn, Az, where were you a couple of weeks ago? J/K. I appreciate your input.
Some of the words my W has used to describe OM are identical to what you posted.
Fun, exciting, charismatic, charming
He charms the panties off of her (well, not literally, but you get the point). He's a salesman type who presents himself very well. He's arguably more financially successful than I am based on his job title. Other adjectives she's used: light, goofy, funny.
She's in a pretty lucid place right now. She knows "logically" that he's a scoundrel, that he's not trustworthy, that he's being dishonest with his wife, and that he still makes her wet anyway. And because HE is making her feel this way, I have very little chance to have the same effect on her.
I knew that she was always an emotionally driven person; I just didn't realize HOW emotionally driven. She can see how f'd up her emotions are, but she can't get past them.
It's funny, and I'm sure this is the oxytocin talking, that she tells me she draws no comfort off of me, yet she gets really uneasy not having me around.
I want to turn up the spontaneity and laughter in our lives; laughter is a big deal to her. If you have any ideas about how to do that and continue my 180s, I'm all ears.
I'm glad you mentioned the term "hypergamy". It opened up a whole new world of information for me. I have finally figured out that if a man loses his mojo after getting married, all the rings and vows in the world won't protect his relationship. That's what happened to me, in a nutshell.
^^^^^^This! Emotional connection is HUGE for them! this is why it is frequent that the wife is more distraught over the EA than a PA! An EA is more destructive in my opinion than a PA or a ONS due to how bad it erodes the connection & bond between the BS & the WAS. The longer the EA continues, the chance of a PA almost becomes inevitable! When I busted my X's second PA, they were already in the planning stages for him to visit our city & her!!!
Az
I have not explicitly demanded that she cut off OM, just because I know that demanding will get me exactly nowhere, but I need to make her understand that she will lose me forever if she cannot get him taken care of. She will lose me....not the other way around. I've alread decided that if she continues to make this douchebag more important than me, I'm going to stop wasting my time with her.
It's funny, and I'm sure this is the oxytocin talking, that she tells me she draws no comfort off of me, yet she gets really uneasy not having me around.
You are a "comfort" she has had for 20+ years; still a bond there of course!
I want to turn up the spontaneity and laughter in our lives; laughter is a big deal to her. If you have any ideas about how to do that and continue my 180s, I'm all ears.
Best thing you can do is continue to GAL and be as upbeat as possible. Don't let her see you down/depressed/moping! If she asks how you are, respond in a positive matter but make sure your actions show it as well! If you have the opportunity to joke & kid around with her like you did when you first started, even better! Nothing will kill your attraction & her respect more than giving the appearance of unhappiness and "pining away" for her. If she can see you standing on your own, confident, happy with yourself and able to move on without her, it may give her pause to what she is about to lose!
I have not explicitly demanded that she cut off OM, just because I know that demanding will get me exactly nowhere, but I need to make her understand that she will lose me forever if she cannot get him taken care of. She will lose me....not the other way around. I've alread decided that if she continues to make this douchebag more important than me, I'm going to stop wasting my time with her.
So, if this is the way you truly feel, be plain blunt about it. Tell her you will not tolerate the OM nor will you discuss it further with her. If she continues on her path, she risks losing you permanently. If a PA is a "deal breaker", make sure she knows it is and the marriage will be irretrievable broken if she does. Be direct, use an even voice, don't lose control. If she tries to argue the point, just walk away.
Just my opinion and my way; adjust accordingly to your style & approach!
Az, you are very wise. Awesome, awesome post!
Thanks Starsky; wish I could have been "wiser" sooner in my life. Took a lot of reading and a lot of self improvement and I am still tweaking me. But hey, at least an "old dog" can learn new tricks!
Az
Sounds like I'm doing what I need to do vis a vis my GAL and mood. I am generally able to keep things light and upbeat at home, we have joked & found funny things to laugh about. I haven't lost my temper (outside of a couple of arguments) in months. No moping. Looks like that part is going OK.
I have made my boundaries very clear regarding a PA. She knows that any physical contact between them means I am done. She also knows that if she left me for him or anyone else, that he had better be everything she wanted, because I will no longer be an option to her. I can see some scenarios where I would be open to R, but the window of opportunity for that would be short. I won't mention that possibility to her. No safety nets.
I'm OK with giving her a little bit of time to process OM in her head and get him resolved, but that grace period won't last forever. I'm still trying to decide what my time limit is on this.
I just noticed your location; you live in the same state as OM.
As, I've polled this question before and I think I know what your answer will be, but I'd like your insights. Is there anything to be gained by confronting the OM myself? He calls on my company and I know when he will be here next month.
What would you plan to do?
If I ran into him in the building, I would simply pull him aside and quietly tell him to leave my W the F*** alone. No violence, no drama. It's my workplace after all.
Rzrback,
Telling OM to "leave your W alone" is a waste of energy and breath. If he's having an EA - or a PA - with a married woman, chances are he doesn't have much of a moral compass ... or, at least, if he DOES have one, he isn't being guided by it right now.
If you want to send a message (many on this site would encourage you NOT to, btw, and that would be more in-line with MWD's philosophy than what I'm about to pitch), there's a better idea. And this is what I did w/ my H's (now-X)OW ... after I had already texted her a plethora of snapshots of her sexual text-conversations with H ... oh, and his sexual text-conversations with ME at the same time, you know, just for good measure. (But keep in mind this IS NOT encouraged by DB principles and I only chose to do this *after* I had LOADS of evidence of an actual PHYSICAL A.)
Lock eyes with OM when he's in the building next time. Not AT ALL in a threatening way. Keep your mouth shut. But just lock friendly/competitive-ish eyes with him. Smile at him. And KEEP smiling at him. Like, not a warm, friendly smile. A sh!t-eating grin. Make it reallyyyyy awkward ... for HIM. Go so far as to wink at him if you're in the mood.
If you want him to squirm a little - while YOU keep the upper-hand - give him a subtle message like that: One that says, "I'm fully aware what you're doing with my W, brah. And I ain't worried about it. Game on."
Keep your dignity here. Stay in touch with your confidence. And trust my words: Whatever you do will get back to W as long as W is in touch with him. So "kill two birds with one stone." If she's anything like me and most women I know, she's going to be A LOT more "thrown" by ... and attracted to ... a man who exudes QUIET confidence than one who tries to be controlling and "threatening."
And, obviously, don't tell your W you saw OM. Or anything of that sort.
Confidence. Confidence. Confidence.
I can't stress that word enough.
I like the smiling idea, Train. I don't want an actual confrontation, but something just to let him know that I know. I don't unfortunately have much evidence. At least nothing I can send his W.
Well then, it looks like this is a perfect plan. He'll know you know ... without you saying a WORD.
A friend of mine says: "Transfer the anguish."
Give it back to the person who needs it: Him. Not you.
Let him squirm a little while you maintain your dignity and confidence.
That easy.
I like that idea, Train. I didn't want to get in an actual confrontation, but he needs to know who I am. It'll be divine providence if I run across him at all.
Journaling...
Not that great a night last night. I allowed myself to get sucked into another R talk. The OM got mentioned, but she wasn't gushing about him, so I let it slide. He was mentioned in the larger context of our R problems, things that pre-dated the OM.
She still can't see how she's ever going to reestablish an emotional bond with me that's necessary for sexual attraction. That's based on her inability to trust me, due to my failure to protect her from my parents, and other selfish and immature behaviors on my part. She sees and is happy for the improvements I made (she brought that up, not me) but ultimately still does not trust me. I simply told her that my words are meaningless, and that the only way she would be convinced is through my behavior. That's exactly what it would take for me to reestablish trust with her if the roles were reversed. When I get in these R talks with her I don't often know when I'm saying too much. It's exhausting trying to filter my words all the time.
After her storm passed and she got back in a better emotional state, we sat scrolling through pics of us and the kids on her iPhone. That's the one time I let myself get angry, when OM's picture popped up not once but 7 times! I told her that I'd like to look at pictures of my children without his ugly face showing up. She deleted them off her phone immediately. I'll check tonight to see if she retrieved them out of her trash or not.
Detachment! Sometimes I think I have it under control, and in the light of day, I think I do. I'm able to see a good life without her. I'm starting to notice other women becoming attractive again. I know that my value as a man doesn't depend on whether W is sexually attracted to me. But when I'm sitting in the car with her and her tears start to flow and she says those things to me, I melt. It's just so sad to think that she doesn't feel that way about me anymore. It's a huge ego hit to think that she no longer desires me. She wants to be attracted to me again, she just doesn't think she can. She wasn't ugly or hateful, just sad and scared. I kept my tears under control, but barely.
I "know" that it's not over until it's over, but it sure felt over last night, at least for a little while. I know that she has to get OM processed before we can make any meaningful progress, and that obviously hasn't happened yet.
I mostly stayed on my PMA horse last night, but I was hanging by the stirrup at one point. I still argue too much when she brings up issues, as if my explanations will do ANY good. This morning when she left for work, she gave me a long hug, kissed me, and told me we'd figure it out.
More work to do
When I get in these R talks with her I don't often know when I'm saying too much.
Here's a simple test you can give yourself, Rzr:
1) Are we talking about the relationship? If so, then
2) You're saying too much.
Starsky
I started listening to a book on CD last night. I can't say the name, but it contains the words "man" and "superior" in the title. The book gets pretty deep, and is heavily influenced by Hindu philosophy. A good portion of it is how a man can achieve true emotional intimacy with his woman. It's amazing how much of what I have listened to so far dovetails with the DR and DB concepts, at least from a male perspective.
The passage I listened to this morning was really fortuitous, considering the events of last night. I can't do it justice in this post, but basically it centered around how a woman in many ways needs her man to be present during her emotional storms, but not affected by them. It fits nicely with the idea of detachment; of being able to go through these times with her, but without being swept up in them, without fixing, analyzing or trying to resolve them.
It's during these times of the day that I feel the most at peace. If I may get mystical for a moment, I've always felt that 2014 was going to be a year of great change; I just didn't know what that change would be. I can feel myself being deeply transformed by my experiences this year. The changes are for the better; I'm excited about where I'm going in life. I can see that I'm much closer to being the kind of person I always wanted to be. The only question is whether my marriage can or should survive this transition. I'm not always sure it should. Maybe shedding this old relationship will be a necessary part of shedding the baggage and pain of my past life. Then again, maybe not. Only time will tell. Still working on letting go of my wife, and of the future that hasn't happened yet. I need to stop putting this on a timeline.
Always quick and spot on as usual
When I get in these R talks with her I don't often know when I'm saying too much.
Here's a simple test you can give yourself, Rzr:
1) Are we talking about the relationship? If so, then
2) You're saying too much.
Starsky
Rzr,
I like that idea, Train. I didn't want to get in an actual confrontation, but he needs to know who I am. It'll be divine providence if I run across him at all.
Oh yea, he'll know by seeing your "chit-eating" grin thrown his way without a SINGLE word. Walk right by him like the Duke (John Wayne) who doesn't have a care in the world and knows his manhood down cold.
Trust me, the word will trickle back to W because the OM will be shaking his boots. I agree with Train about quiet confidence and strength. You CAN do this.
After her storm passed and she got back in a better emotional state, we sat scrolling through pics of us and the kids on her iPhone. That's the one time I let myself get angry, when OM's picture popped up not once but 7 times! I told her that I'd like to look at pictures of my children without his ugly face showing up. She deleted them off her phone immediately. I'll check tonight to see if she retrieved them out of her trash or not.
I'd suggest that you pull back on family related activities as it is apparent that W is still attached to OM. I would suggest that you use this script that Sandi suggested for HP:
When your W has expectations of watching the TV with you or any other activity you two did in the past.......have you just looked at her and said, "There is nothing I want more than for our M and our lives to be healthy and normal again. However, as long as you are actively involved with another man, I cannot pretend to enjoy a shared activities just the two of us, as if all is well. It is painful for me and feels like a mockery to what we once had." This should not be said with anger or coldness. It should be said lovingly, but not pitifully.
I think you can modify to suit the situation. Your W still has pictures of the OM on her smartphone and what else is lurking behind the curtain? Really.
But when I'm sitting in the car with her and her tears start to flow and she says those things to me, I melt. It's just so sad to think that she doesn't feel that way about me anymore. It's a huge ego hit to think that she no longer desires me. She wants to be attracted to me again, she just doesn't think she can. She wasn't ugly or hateful, just sad and scared. I kept my tears under control, but barely.
You are not along in this. We all have faced this at one point or another. Yes, it is very painful to hear those wicked scary words that pierces our hearts. Not fun at all. This is how many WASes feel at that moment. In time, those feelings will gradually come back when the LBS sticks with the changes and follows the general DBing principles. Eyes one the prize, buddy! Your family.
I still argue too much when she brings up issues, as if my explanations will do ANY good.
Time to brush up on validation techniques.
Validation: Cheat Sheet This morning when she left for work, she gave me a long hug, kissed me, and told me we'd figure it out.
This is a positive. Yes, W will swing back and forth. I noticed that W talks about "not being able to get those feelings back" is when you bring up the OM or argue against her. Please be mindful of this and try to be more self-aware of what/how you communicate with W.
Maybe shedding this old relationship will be a necessary part of shedding the baggage and pain of my past life. Then again, maybe not. Only time will tell. Still working on letting go of my wife, and of the future that hasn't happened yet. I need to stop putting this on a timeline.
I like hearing this from you. That is the right way to go about this. You might want to state briefly to W that the old relationship is dead and that you're trying to forge a new one together. Then leave it at that. Plant small seeds in her head. Believe me, WASes do pay attention to stuff like this.
Yeah...there cannot be a timeline to a marathon. Not the 50-yard dash. Shoot, Usian Bolt owns the world record!
If I ran into him in the building, I would simply pull him aside and quietly tell him to leave my W the F*** alone. No violence, no drama. It's my workplace after all.
Rzrback,
Telling OM to "leave your W alone" is a waste of energy and breath. If he's having an EA - or a PA - with a married woman, chances are he doesn't have much of a moral compass ... or, at least, if he DOES have one, he isn't being guided by it right now.
Rzr,
Don't do this; Train is correct. Trust me, I've been there and done it; confronted both OM's and one of them in person. It did stop the contact, but in the end, it really didn't change anything. The way I did it could have landed me in jail; I got lucky and let it go from that point!
Yes, you might feel better for saying what you feel you need and getting it off your chest, and you might even get a "rush" if the OM is a wuss and you get the intimidation factor going. But as Train said, it will get back to her and all she will view it as is you "being a brute" and harassing her "friend"!
Also consider if he doesn't back down, it could get heated an violent, whether you want it to or not.
Just my two cents from someone who did confront and in the end the results didn't matter anyway!
Az
.
You are not along in this. We all have faced this at one point or another. Yes, it is very painful to hear those wicked scary words that pierces our hearts. Not fun at all. This is how many WASes feel at that moment. In time, those feelings will gradually come back when the LBS sticks with the changes and follows the general DBing principles. Eyes one the prize, buddy! Your family.
Thanks. Seeing the pain in her face and knowing I helped to get her there is still a weakness for me. She does notice my changes, and I have noticed that she has been more of her old self lately. I can't help but think that she's responding to me in some way.
I noticed that W talks about "not being able to get those feelings back" is when you bring up the OM or argue against her. Please be mindful of this and try to be more self-aware of what/how you communicate with W.
Holy crap, Wonka! You just reminded me of a very important point I forgot to mention in my pre-coffee posting this morning. We were getting along fabulously until we were leaving Home Depot. She asked me how I felt about us, which I replied "good", which was true. I screwed up and started in on the OM and how I'd never feel good as long as he's in her life. Everything went downhill from there. For a guy with a Master's degree, I can be pretty dense sometimes.
I like hearing this from you. That is the right way to go about this. You might want to state briefly to W that the old relationship is dead and that you're trying to forge a new one together. Then leave it at that. Plant small seeds in her head. Believe me, WASes do pay attention to stuff like this.
Yeah...there cannot be a timeline to a marathon. Not the 50-yard dash. Shoot, Usian Bolt owns the world record!
I was talking about shedding this old relationship in the sense of starting over life w/o her, but I guess that really applies either way. Our current M is dead, and we both need to let go of the past and start over. Whether we build a new M together or we pursue new lives separately is really the question. She's terrified that she can't let go of the past, and it makes her want to run and start over without me and my baggage. Tabula rasa is one of her favorite sayings.
Marathon pace, marathon pace, must remember that
Dead on as always, Wonka.
Yeah Az, I would tend to agree that confrontation is not the way to go. I figured you'd say that, but I wanted your insight. Thanks.
I doubt I would be able to see him in person without reacting at all. The "stare em down with a smile" approach is way classier, IMHO.
Rzr,
I doubt I would be able to see him in person without reacting at all. The "stare em down with a smile" approach is way classier, IMHO.
You can if you practice beforehand by repeating the same mantra over and over which is: I am calm, cool, and collected.
Then picture yourself running into the OM and giving him the chit-eating grin when you glance at him while continuing walking in the opposite direction with your back ram-rod straight in your unique Rzr swagger.
When visualizing, feel the emotions, feel the scene, feel the OM's presence, and feel yourself being confident.
I find that visualizing helps prevent one from getting into a clusterf*ck situations and prepares you mentally for the encounter.
Hey Bond,
If you happen to lurk in this thread, I'd love for you to share your story how you handled your W's XOM at your office. A classic. Thanks much!
Hey Bond,
If you happen to lurk in this thread, I'd love for you to share your story how you handled your W's XOM at your office. A classic. Thanks much!
Oh yeah, I LOVE that story!!! Oooogh! Ooogh! I wanna hear it, cmon Bond!!!
I'm always up for a good story!
While we're waiting for Bond, I saw someone else post a thread about thankfulness. I've been naturally thinking a lot about what I'm thankful for right now...those things are easy to forget in my current sitch
I'm thankful for:
1. My wife. She's a beautiful, strong woman who has brought so much color to my life. She's a wonderful mom. I'm thankful that she gave us the gift of time to work on our issues instead of simply running away, as many WAS have done.
2. My two beautiful daughters. If nothing else comes out of my current M, I still have them.
3. I have a good job, paid-for home and cars. Good health insurance that pays for MC.
4. Myself. Out of all the pain I have discovered how much I actually like myself. I am a good, strong man, no matter what my W may think right now. I'm my own person, and I've been getting my passion and purpose back. I can feel my alpha male confidence returning, which has been gone for way too long.
I know I'd be a catch for a some lucky woman, even if my W can't see it right now.
5. This'll sound crazy, but in a way I'm thankful for OM. He's not the cause of our issues. Our M was dying before he ever came along. He may very well be the catalyst for my W and I to forge a beautiful new marriage together. It's also possible that we won't. In that case, see #4 above. I'll find a beautiful new relationship with a woman I haven't even discovered yet.
6. Last but not least, I am thankful for Wonka, Starsky, and all the posters on this forum. DB.com has been a godsend and a safe haven for me to navigate this sitch. I appreciate everyone's wisdom and insight. You have pulled me out of some dark discouraging holes and saved me some from mistakes more than once in the last month.
Happy Thanksgiving! I wish grace and peace for all the posters, whatever your M situation is right now.
I just quickly skimmed through your stitch (I'm at work...shhhh) to see where the parents came into play. I'm glad that you took a stand against them and you and your W appear to be on the same page about it.
I have issues with H's parents. They're toxic as hell. My MIL offered to help H out of a financial hole that he got himself in. The catch? He had to leave me. And he wonders why I didn't want to spend the holidays with them that year.
I've spent several years angry at H, angry at them. Why didn't H stand up for me? Why? Because he couldn't stand up for himself. He avoided conflict and the relationship I have with his parents....is filled with conflict. Some of which H perpetuated. But I started to realize that while, yes, my H should've stood up for me, I'm a grown woman and if I was so offended, I should've said something myself and not relied on my H to white knight for me.
At some point, (and this may be an unpopular opinion) she may have to look at why she needs you to protect her from your parents. She needs to address the hurt that she has with them, and in turn, with you and really get into it. Because if it's not figured out -- it's going to fester.
Have you asked her point blank if there was anything that you could do to help her move forward with this? The reason I ask, my IC last year helped me have a conversation with my H about his parents. I asked him what he wanted/needed for me to do to have a relationship with his parents that he would be happy with. He told me. I listened. And then I told him what I needed from him to make that relationship happen. And it worked.
Just a thought.
Hang in there!
But I started to realize that while, yes, my H should've stood up for me, I'm a grown woman and if I was so offended, I should've said something myself and not relied on my H to white knight for me.
I disagree with this. They're his parents and the onus is on him to tell them that you're his wife and he won't tolerate that kind of disrespect. The person whose parents are being unfair/unkind/whatever need to set the boundary, not the spouse. People don't respond the same to their children vs "an outsider"; to really sink in, it needs to be the relative.
Gladly! Sorry, I've been debating things on the MB site and it's been quite... amusing.
Well, let's see, children. For those who don't know my story, my W's OM was her boss. About 25 years her senior. Over time he would buy my W gifts like spa treatments, clothing, jewelry, etc. and I noticed the gifts getting more elaborate each time. I asked her if this was "normal" and of course she just said he was generous to everyone, that he was a good man, blah blah blah.
So anyway, after I found out about the EA, my W left, but continued to work for the OM. After about the 3rd year, I get a call from the Receptionist at my work place saying that a friend of my boss' was here and that my boss recommended he talk to be to discuss a project. My boss does that all the time so I didn't think anything of it.
I go to the front office and it's a guy who is a pastor of a large church here and, lo and behold, my W's boss is with him. I greet them and lead them into the conference room and the pastor introduces himself and as he's about to introduce (we'll call him Dr. Douchebag), I tell him, "I know who he is. He's the guy who cheated with my W."
The pastor then proceeds to tell me that he is there to get me fired because of things that were written on the internet about Dr. Douchebag. I had no idea what he was talking about, so I told him so and that he probably didn't know what his friend did. I tell him that my W has told me the truth about everything and that he should get his facts straight. The pastor (we'll call him Pastor Pen*s) then tells me that it doesn't matter what happened and that he's going to get me fired.
As I'm talking to Pastor Pen*s, the Dr. Douchebag isn't saying a word. Then when I mention my W told me everything, he spoke up and asked WHAT?! What did she tell you? So I told him that she told me everything about how she and he kissed and how they both said they had feelings for each other, etc. Meanwhile, Pastor Pen*s tries stopping me and says, it doesn't matter what happened, your W's just crazy.
At that point I stopped. I can't explain it but an overwhelming feeling of calm and strength came over me. Maybe it was God or a Guardian Angel, but something inside me told me that everything would be okay.
So I looked at Pastor Pen*s square in the eye and tell him to NEVER call my W crazy. That she was brave enough to tell me the truth and that his "buddy" is the liar and just covering his @$$. The Dr. then calls me a "coward" for not confronting him at work about it. And I said, "and what would that accomplish? My W would get fired and my family would be in turmoil. I said he was the coward for not keeping it in his pants (he cheated with others in the past) and to go back home to his W. Now keep in mind, he is also an Elder in their church.
I told them that while I loved my job, my family was more important and that they could try to get me fired if they wanted to. They were a little shocked because I called them out and they repeated that they were "serious". I then walked up, got the phone, picked up the receiver and said i would dial my boss' number for them if they wanted.
During this time, a large crowd had gathered outside the room because we have glass windows. One of my friends came in and told them that they knew what was going on and the Dr. and Pastor had to leave.
The Dr. asked how did they know what was going on, and I said, quite loudly to the crowd that EVERYONE knows who he is and what he did because I had nothing to hide. I told him that I told all my coworkers, my friends, people at bars, at the bus stop, etc. And then I told the crowd, "hey everyone, this is the guy who cheated with my wife!".
They were both embarrassed and told me to continue the conversation outside. I again looked them dead in the eye and told him, "no". That we were DONE and that he should enjoy retirement in his old age with his W and that he should pray to God for forgiveness. That he meant NOTHING to me and that I would always be the better man. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that during the conversation I asked the Pastor if Jesus would approve of him coming over and trying to destroy my family. He said Jesus has nothing to do with it. Nice.
By then they were flustered and I held out my hand to shake the Pastor's hand and with a wide grin I told him it was nice to meet him. He looked disgusted and walked out. I escorted them out and as we passed the Receptionist, I told her, "hey by the way, that's the guy I told you about who cheated with my wife."
Afterwards, I called my boss, explained to her what happened and she called the Pastor Pen*s and Dr. Douchebag both idiots. That she knew them casually but was definitely not a friend and that she would have my back.
And that was that.
Oh and the thing that was written about the Doc online? It seemed as if he was bragging to the hospital staff about how he was a former Navy Seal, and said so again in the OR. Someone on staff contacted the Navy on line and asked if this was true (guess they got tired of his bragging), and the Navy replied that no one with his name was ever a Seal.
So he lied.
I just quickly skimmed through your stitch (I'm at work...shhhh) to see where the parents came into play. I'm glad that you took a stand against them and you and your W appear to be on the same page about it.
I have issues with H's parents. They're toxic as hell. My MIL offered to help H out of a financial hole that he got himself in. The catch? He had to leave me. And he wonders why I didn't want to spend the holidays with them that year.
I've spent several years angry at H, angry at them. Why didn't H stand up for me? Why? Because he couldn't stand up for himself. He avoided conflict and the relationship I have with his parents....is filled with conflict. Some of which H perpetuated. But I started to realize that while, yes, my H should've stood up for me, I'm a grown woman and if I was so offended, I should've said something myself and not relied on my H to white knight for me.
At some point, (and this may be an unpopular opinion) she may have to look at why she needs you to protect her from your parents. She needs to address the hurt that she has with them, and in turn, with you and really get into it. Because if it's not figured out -- it's going to fester.
Have you asked her point blank if there was anything that you could do to help her move forward with this? The reason I ask, my IC last year helped me have a conversation with my H about his parents. I asked him what he wanted/needed for me to do to have a relationship with his parents that he would be happy with. He told me. I listened. And then I told him what I needed from him to make that relationship happen. And it worked.
Just a thought.
Hang in there!
Hi Calibri.
My parents are a huge issue. They've never pressured me to leave my W, but they tend to be very meddlesome and controlling. I have no doubt we will spend some significant time on them in MC. My W is typically a very strong and confident woman, but she acts like a total victim when it comes to my parents.
Unfortunately I sounded a lot like your H. I was conflict-avoidant with them and I did fail to protect my W adequately. There were times when I did effectively defend her, but in her present state of mind, she only sees my failures. I didn't stand up for myself much either; they lost respect for me, so as the years went on it actually became harder to stand up to them effectively, even as I gradually lost the fear of doing so.
I tend to agree with Little on this one. It is MY job to defend her against my toxic parents. I'm ashamed of the way I handled them when I was younger. I'm happy to say that I've now put to rest any fear I have of dealing with them assertively. To be honest I no longer give a flip about our relationship with my parents. All I expect is civil now, and my parents are on notice that they need to treat my W with nothing but respect.
Tomorrow we'll be seeing them for the first time since BD. This will be an opportunity to demonstrate my ability to lead and protect. I will be on guard against any intrusions or disrespect from my parents, and I'll be closely montoring the time we spend with them. When it's time to leave there and go to W's family, it'll be my responsibility to get us out of there at the time we agreed. This was something she and I have already agreed on and our MC wholeheartedly concurred with how we were handling the holidays.
Gladly! Sorry, I've been debating things on the MB site and it's been quite... amusing.
Well, let's see, children. For those who don't know my story, my W's OM was her boss. About 25 years her senior. Over time he would buy my W gifts like spa treatments, clothing, jewelry, etc. and I noticed the gifts getting more elaborate each time. I asked her if this was "normal" and of course she just said he was generous to everyone, that he was a good man, blah blah blah.
So anyway, after I found out about the EA, my W left, but continued to work for the OM. After about the 3rd year, I get a call from the Receptionist at my work place saying that a friend of my boss' was here and that my boss recommended he talk to be to discuss a project. My boss does that all the time so I didn't think anything of it.
I go to the front office and it's a guy who is a pastor of a large church here and, lo and behold, my W's boss is with him. I greet them and lead them into the conference room and the pastor introduces himself and as he's about to introduce (we'll call him Dr. Douchebag), I tell him, "I know who he is. He's the guy who cheated with my W."
The pastor then proceeds to tell me that he is there to get me fired because of things that were written on the internet about Dr. Douchebag. I had no idea what he was talking about, so I told him so and that he probably didn't know what his friend did. I tell him that my W has told me the truth about everything and that he should get his facts straight. The pastor (we'll call him Pastor Pen*s) then tells me that it doesn't matter what happened and that he's going to get me fired.
As I'm talking to Pastor Pen*s, the Dr. Douchebag isn't saying a word. Then when I mention my W told me everything, he spoke up and asked WHAT?! What did she tell you? So I told him that she told me everything about how she and he kissed and how they both said they had feelings for each other, etc. Meanwhile, Pastor Pen*s tries stopping me and says, it doesn't matter what happened, your W's just crazy.
At that point I stopped. I can't explain it but an overwhelming feeling of calm and strength came over me. Maybe it was God or a Guardian Angel, but something inside me told me that everything would be okay.
So I looked at Pastor Pen*s square in the eye and tell him to NEVER call my W crazy. That she was brave enough to tell me the truth and that his "buddy" is the liar and just covering his @$$. The Dr. then calls me a "coward" for not confronting him at work about it. And I said, "and what would that accomplish? My W would get fired and my family would be in turmoil. I said he was the coward for not keeping it in his pants (he cheated with others in the past) and to go back home to his W. Now keep in mind, he is also an Elder in their church.
I told them that while I loved my job, my family was more important and that they could try to get me fired if they wanted to. They were a little shocked because I called them out and they repeated that they were "serious". I then walked up, got the phone, picked up the receiver and said i would dial my boss' number for them if they wanted.
During this time, a large crowd had gathered outside the room because we have glass windows. One of my friends came in and told them that they knew what was going on and the Dr. and Pastor had to leave.
The Dr. asked how did they know what was going on, and I said, quite loudly to the crowd that EVERYONE knows who he is and what he did because I had nothing to hide. I told him that I told all my coworkers, my friends, people at bars, at the bus stop, etc. And then I told the crowd, "hey everyone, this is the guy who cheated with my wife!".
They were both embarrassed and told me to continue the conversation outside. I again looked them dead in the eye and told him, "no". That we were DONE and that he should enjoy retirement in his old age with his W and that he should pray to God for forgiveness. That he meant NOTHING to me and that I would always be the better man. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that during the conversation I asked the Pastor if Jesus would approve of him coming over and trying to destroy my family. He said Jesus has nothing to do with it. Nice.
By then they were flustered and I held out my hand to shake the Pastor's hand and with a wide grin I told him it was nice to meet him. He looked disgusted and walked out. I escorted them out and as we passed the Receptionist, I told her, "hey by the way, that's the guy I told you about who cheated with my wife."
Afterwards, I called my boss, explained to her what happened and she called the Pastor Pen*s and Dr. Douchebag both idiots. That she knew them casually but was definitely not a friend and that she would have my back.
And that was that.
Oh and the thing that was written about the Doc online? It seemed as if he was bragging to the hospital staff about how he was a former Navy Seal, and said so again in the OR. Someone on staff contacted the Navy on line and asked if this was true (guess they got tired of his bragging), and the Navy replied that no one with his name was ever a Seal.
So he lied.
Oh, I agree -- I believe that the persons whose parents are being unfair need to set the boundary, not the spouse.
But on the other hand of thinking, what if the spouse can't/won't set a boundary? Should the spouse just take it....or should they speak up for themselves?
That's something I struggled with (and admittedly still do).
Beautiful, Bond! Loved your story
Oh, I agree -- I believe that the persons whose parents are being unfair need to set the boundary, not the spouse.
But on the other hand of thinking, what if the spouse can't/won't set a boundary? Should the spouse just take it....or should they speak up for themselves?
That's something I struggled with (and admittedly still do).
She's set her own boundaries when necessary, she's just angry that she's had to do it at all. She says that she has no trouble setting boundaries with her mother. All well and good, but her mother is extremely low-pressure and easy to get along with. I love my MIL. It's safe to say that my MIL has never tested her the way my parents have tested me. Plus, she has siblings to back her up if necessary. I don't.
Part of her reasoning for leaving me is that she can remove herself from my parents. She's convinced that they hate her. I don't really think that's the case, but they're definitely not healthy to have around. She apparently thinks that to be happy in a marriage, she needs to have in-laws that love her, and that she needs to go find a new man so she can have that. She detests my parents so much that she's willing to tear up her own family to get away from them.
She's just angry that she's had to do it at all.
Been there. Currently there. I've said the same thing to my H. Tomorrow will be a good day to show the 180 that you mentioned about monitoring the situation and removing the family on time.
Part of her reasoning for leaving me is that she can remove herself from my parents. She's convinced that they hate her. I don't really think that's the case, but they're definitely not healthy to have around. She apparently thinks that to be happy in a marriage, she needs to have in-laws that love her, and that she needs to go find a new man so she can have that. She detests my parents so much that she's willing to tear up her own family to get away from them.
Wow. How much interaction does your family interact with W and kids?
I dislike my inlaws immensely. But not enough to leave my marriage. I don't have much to offer. It sounds like you've done what you can to fix your part of the situation. She's angry. And I'm sorry for that. I hope for your sake that tomorrow goes well, and maybe it can be used to discuss in MC at a later point.
She's just angry that she's had to do it at all.
Been there. Currently there. I've said the same thing to my H. Tomorrow will be a good day to show the 180 that you mentioned about monitoring the situation and removing the family on time.
Part of her reasoning for leaving me is that she can remove herself from my parents. She's convinced that they hate her. I don't really think that's the case, but they're definitely not healthy to have around. She apparently thinks that to be happy in a marriage, she needs to have in-laws that love her, and that she needs to go find a new man so she can have that. She detests my parents so much that she's willing to tear up her own family to get away from them.
Wow. How much interaction does your family interact with W and kids?
I dislike my inlaws immensely. But not enough to leave my marriage. I don't have much to offer. It sounds like you've done what you can to fix your part of the situation. She's angry. And I'm sorry for that. I hope for your sake that tomorrow goes well, and maybe it can be used to discuss in MC at a later point.
I have no doubt that it will be discussed in MC next week. The tension around the holidays was a large part of this week's session. My parents really have very little interaction with her. I talk to them on the phone about once a week or so, but we basically only see them for short periods of the time around the holidays. We haven't even been to visit them in quite a while.
Maybe a little background is in order. My parents have always been critical, but it was mostly just irritating until about three years ago. When our Ds were younger they would often jump in the tub with my W. Nobody in our house thought a thing of it.
Well, it happened one evening when my parents were visiting. My W decided to take a bath before we went out to eat and my parents freaked out, and the girls jumped in with her. They intimated that she was being psychologically harmful with the children, they told us that Child Services would come to our house, etc. They actually wanted to stay an extra night to sit us down like children and tell us what we were doing wrong. I came out guns blazing and shut them down. Well, they continued at it. They wouldn't stop. They sent a letter to my W that mentioned Jerry Sandusky.
What my W wanted me to do was to basically tell them to either stop with the meddling or get out of our lives. I stopped short of that, but I never wavered from defending her. She's convinced that if I [i] had just cut them out of our lives [\i] that their meddling would stop. It did eventually stop, but I let it go on too long. That's where I screwed up.
Her mental state determines how she talks about it. At her worst she tells me that she feels "dirty" and like a rape victim, and I failed to protect her from that. She talks about them bringing darkness and weird sexual hang ups into our life. I ask her if I bring that to her and she says no, but I think she associates me so closely with them that she wants to cut all three of us out.
And, she promptly put at least one deleted photo back on her phone this morning. Son of a bitch.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
After her storm passed and she got back in a better emotional state, we sat scrolling through pics of us and the kids on her iPhone. That's the one time I let myself get angry, when OM's picture popped up not once but 7 times! I told her that I'd like to look at pictures of my children without his ugly face showing up. She deleted them off her phone immediately. I'll check tonight to see if she retrieved them out of her trash or not.
Rzr,
I think it is good that you guys are seeing MC together. What I am wondering is if the MC has some training in sexual issues. I am not saying a sex therapist, but rather a therapist who can assist you and your W in navigating through the very sitch you described about your parents.
Your W needs to decide to continue holding on to the notion that your parents MUST change or else. I mean, my former ILs were pretty conservative Catholics and I didn't begrudge them for their beliefs. In my view, your W is too tied up in trying to change your parents' values and views.
Yeah, I do think that they went waaaay overboard in meddling with your parenting styles and going off on Jerry Sandusky. It is patently obvious that they have some sexual hang ups that unfortunately spilled over in your home.
Heck, I took baths with my mother and cousins when I was a kid. I am perfectly fine. I love the fact that your W is very comfortable with her body and there's no shame in it at all. You two are great in that area.
As the saying goes, not only are you marrying your wife/husband, but you're also marrying their family. So true!
Rzr,
And, she promptly put at least one deleted photo back on her phone this morning. Son of a bitch.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
After her storm passed and she got back in a better emotional state, we sat scrolling through pics of us and the kids on her iPhone. That's the one time I let myself get angry, when OM's picture popped up not once but 7 times! I told her that I'd like to look at pictures of my children without his ugly face showing up. She deleted them off her phone immediately. I'll check tonight to see if she retrieved them out of her trash or not.
Personally, I think setting a boundary on the OM needs to happen sooner than later and must be enforced. I'd bring it up to the MC on the phone and alert her of this behavior. Then ask MC to work with you on this concern during the next MC session.
Rzr,
I think it is good that you guys are seeing MC together. What I am wondering is if the MC has some training in sexual issues. I am not saying a sex therapist, but rather a therapist who can assist you and your W in navigating through the very sitch you described about your parents.
Your W needs to decide to continue holding on to the notion that your parents MUST change or else. I mean, my former ILs were pretty conservative Catholics and I didn't begrudge them for their beliefs. In my view, your W is too tied up in trying to change your parents' values and views.
Yeah, I do think that they went waaaay overboard in meddling with your parenting styles and going off on Jerry Sandusky. It is patently obvious that they have some sexual hang ups that unfortunately spilled over in your home.
Heck, I took baths with my mother and cousins when I was a kid. I am perfectly fine. I love the fact that your W is very comfortable with her body and there's no shame in it at all. You two are great in that area.
As the saying goes, not only are you marrying your wife/husband, but you're also marrying their family. So true!
Yeah, I never had any issues with the girls bathing with my W. It was good bonding time for them, it was often a jumping off point for my W's talks with them about their changing bodies, etc. It was no big deal to us. I never once even considered that my parents were in the right about this situation. My W is not angry with me because she thinks I agree with them, she's angry because my defense wasn't effective enough.
I'm not sure exactly what my parent's hangups are. My mother especially is the kind of person who looks for things to be worried about. Part of rationale for making this into a big deal was the news stories about kids making offhand remarks and bringing the wrath of Child Services down on innocent parents. I've read those news stories too, but in the grand scheme of things, there are far bigger risks in life.
My mother grew up with an alcoholic father; she's alluded to "secrets" in the past. I wonder if something else was going on with her or a sibling. I won't ask, I'm not sure I want to know. In addition, an uncle of mine (whom I see about once a year) is in treatment for sex addiction. She doesn't dislike my entire family, but they seem to be creeping her out. In her mind, I'm just one of "them".
My parents make her so uncomfortable and make her feel "dirty" (her words) that she wants them out of her life, and right now she views me as acceptable collateral damage. She's terrified that I will grow up to be just like them and I'll want the same kind of life they do. It's nonsensical, but she's pretty nonsensical right now.
I'm hoping that the MC can get into this in more detail soon. My W initially (although I don't think she thinks that now) saw the OM as a chance to escape from her husband and his freaky family and start over with someone healthy. Never mind that he would need to leave his wife first, and never mind that she has exactly ZERO clue about him or his family. They could make mine look normal for all she knows.
My wife is all about MC, but she won't entertain the idea of IC, even though she needs it badly.
True, but I need to do it without my W knowing that I have access to her phone and email.
Rzr,
True, but I need to do it without my W knowing that I have access to her phone and email.
You can bring it up during MC in a way that is checking to see if W is indeed complying with no OM contact. It is important to start building trust. That's the key right there.
That might work, although I know she hasn't gone NC yet
I bet this thread is getting ready to lock (is the limit 120?) so I've started Pt 3
Hmmm it appears as if someone from the MB site has been lurking in the shadows here reading my situation and rather than ask about it here mrwondering's gone back to MB to attack me there.
Some people just don't have anything better to do with their lives.