Blindsided, that was then, this is now

Old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2496626#Post2496626

Good morning! I didn't realize my thread was locked over the weekend. I got back from parents weekend late yesterday afternoon. I had such a good time with my S18. He's growing up to be such a fine young man.

I had a lot of time in the car to ponder things. I am slowly making connections between choices, boundaries, feeling unworthy, being a friend to myself, God's plan for me, acting out of fear and love, my relationship with my dad, and other things that swirl around. At times I was a little frustrated that I couldn't immediately solve this like a jigsaw puzzle. But I know it will all come together in time if I don't just shove it aside.

H's condo deal is apparently a go, he says we are telling the kids this coming weekend "come he!! or high water". This morning I asked him if we could meet for coffee or lunch one day this week to finalize some things about telling the kids and the moving out. I just got off the phone with him to try and put something on his calendar, and he can't figure out a single block of time to address this. Seems sort of important, doesn't it? And he can't squeeze out an hour for it? How much time is he spending with OW this week? Makes my blood boil. But I was nice on the phone, and he said he'd look harder at his schedule and call me back later.

He's not making time because he's avoiding it. He's been running his mouth, now he's actually going to have to back that up. I think this is going to sting him more than he realizes.

Out of curiosity, does the rest of the worship band know the full situation?

Originally Posted By: Underdog
"LOL, I knew I was gonna be on the hook for this one! Here's how it all started for me. I forced myself to analyze all the excuses I made. Across the board. For myself and others and for situations. And in that muddled mess was a common theme. I bet you have a common theme too. But in the end, I found out through that introspection that I was the one who prevented myself from moving forward. My excuses were based on an erroneous set of assumptions and conclusions, and when I challenged myself, I found out that things were vastly different than the small box where I based all those assumptions.

Hint: the common denominator in all of that was... me."

Originally Posted by: Labug
"I'll add, BOUNDARIES! Find out what that means for you. I would guess you have very few (you're not alone, I had, hmmmmm lemme think...NONE) It's amazing what figuring out where you end and others begin can do for you.

Also, self-compassion. I was always harder on myself than anyone else was. I was sitting in IC this week talking about that and realized I would have made a great penitente. Give yourself some love, let go of your "mistakes". "

I tried really hard to figure this out during my hours on end in the car this weekend, and sometimes some things seemed to click, but it just hasn't taken shape yet.

I listened to a radio psychologist for a while, and there was a caller who stood up to her H and told him "no" about a situation and that's how it resolved. He didn't scream at her, didn't leave her. I was dumbfounded. I don't know that I've ever done that, not in a long time, anyway, not about something important. My pattern is to express my opinion to H, and then let him have the final say. Is that wrong? Shouldn't I be able to trust him to make good decisions for our family? (A aside).

One connection I did make is between having choices and setting boundaries. Having choices is something the IC has been trying to get me to see, that I did make choices, even in places where I thought I had no choice. Maybe there was only one appealing option, but it was still a choice. I realized that my taking away my choices makes me a victim, and I want to repackage that. And somehow boundaries are tied up in that, too (and you are correct, labug, that I have zero). That in order to set boundaries, I would need to make choices about what I find acceptable and not, and how I respond to each of those.

I don't see other people struggling with these concepts, am I the only one screwed-up this much?

"I don't see other people struggling with these concepts, am I the only one screwed-up this much?"
Look no further, you're not alone.

I think most people are

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Out of curiosity, does the rest of the worship band know the full situation?

I don't really know, I assume not. I know their wives don't know, because I have been at some parties with them in the past few weeks, and they make funny comments that wouldn't be appropriate if they did -- how H will enjoy my (very tall leopard print) shoes later, etc.

It's a tricky situation because I work for the church. I will tell my boss (the priest) after my kids know, and probably tell a couple of my co-workers, too. But it's not something I'm going to spread over the entire congregation, even though I am capable of that. I know just who to tell what to make it all spread like wildfire. But I won't. Bad for my kids, puts potholes in the road home.

In the end, we aren't a denomination that frowns heavily upon divorce, it's not the stigma here that it would be in other churches. Adultery is of course, not acceptable church teaching, but the fact is I live in a big diverse city, and the practicality is that most people aren't going to blink twice about it. It would be gossip for a week or two, and then people will move on to the next subject.

I'm with you. I struggle with it daily.
This is the "heavy lifting" part. No one can tell you what you find acceptable. You have to dig deep and make the hard choices.
Work hard on this. Soon there will be lots of new, stressful things in your life. I found it very helpful to get a "process" in place to deal with the choices I have been confronted with. This "process" has allowed me to focus on the topic at hand, deal with it, make my choice, and then move on.

rpp, you might like the boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. Sorry if I recommended this before and am repeating myself.

Quote:

Shouldn't I be able to trust him to make good decisions for our family?

I'm not sure that's the question.
Did you always agree with his decisions? Were they always the best for the family? Were you sometimes resentful? Were you concerned about his reactions if you disagreed with him?

Originally Posted By: rppfl

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Out of curiosity, does the rest of the worship band know the full situation?

I don't really know, I assume not. I know their wives don't know, because I have been at some parties with them in the past few weeks, and they make funny comments that wouldn't be appropriate if they did -- how H will enjoy my (very tall leopard print) shoes later, etc.

It's a tricky situation because I work for the church. I will tell my boss (the priest) after my kids know, and probably tell a couple of my co-workers, too. But it's not something I'm going to spread over the entire congregation, even though I am capable of that. I know just who to tell what to make it all spread like wildfire. But I won't. Bad for my kids, puts potholes in the road home.

In the end, we aren't a denomination that frowns heavily upon divorce, it's not the stigma here that it would be in other churches. Adultery is of course, not acceptable church teaching, but the fact is I live in a big diverse city, and the practicality is that most people aren't going to blink twice about it. It would be gossip for a week or two, and then people will move on to the next subject.

I live in a huge city too and go to a giant church, but if my worship band knew, he'd be gone faster than he could pack his guitar. One of the reasons my wife chose to quit working for our church is because they were putting pressure on her and had threatened termination if she didn't seek to reconcile the marriage. It's one thing for a person in the congregation to be acting this way, a total different thing for a leader of the church.

Just wondered.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

It's one thing for a person in the congregation to be acting this way, a total different thing for a leader of the church.

Jefe, I hear you and agree. I just don't really know how it will all play out. I'm sure that if I made a big deal about the adultery, there would be pressure for him to step down from the leadership role. But I'm not going to. So, if people don't know, they can't be outraged. It will just be another couple who separated (bless their hearts) and no one will really know why. They can't be mad about what they don't know, and I don't feel like I can be or should be the one to tell them.

Really, this all depends on how my boss handles it. And I don't see him taking a stand because that would jeopardize one of his worship services at a time that he needs to support it the most because of some unpopular changes he made to the schedule at the beginning of this program year. So this is almost personal for my boss, and I'm not sure he would take a moral stand against himself. I don't think I'm explaining that well, and I don't mean to make my boss out to be an immoral guy, he's certainly not, he's a fine priest. It's just difficult to explain. Jefe, you may have a better handle on church politics than most because of your W, but everyone else is probably either scratching their heads or offended right now.

I get it, and trust me I wouldn't say anything about it either, I was just wondering.

Originally Posted By: labug

Did you always agree with his decisions?

No

Originally Posted By: labug

Were they always the best for the family?

Maybe? I don't think we've come to any harm because of them.

Originally Posted By: labug

Were you sometimes resentful?

Yes

Originally Posted By: labug

Were you concerned about his reactions if you disagreed with him?

Yes. I wasn't concerned while I was explaining my position, but I was concerned that if I actually took a stand that contradicted his, then I would be criticized, or thrown under the bus to the kids.

Here's an example: At the end of the last school year, D16 wanted to go on a trip that I opposed. I had a pretty solid list of reasons why I considered it a bad idea. I explained them to D16, and explained them to my H, but left the final decision in his hands. She went. I didn't agree with his decision, and yes I was resentful that he didn't back me up, yet I had deferred the decision. But in the end, nothing bad happened, so I can't say that his decision was wrong.

If he had said no but told D16 that he was only backing up my decision and he didn't agree with it, I'd have still been resentful. I wanted him to say no and offer up the reasons I gave, even if he privately didn't agree with them. I wanted some validation as a mother.

Maybe that's too much to ask of H. I did in fact tell him the final decision was his. I recognized that I lean towards the over-protective side and thought he'd be more balanced. I just thought my list of reasons was solid and he'd see it my way. But he didn't and I shouldn't resent that.

It was my choice to defer to him, but then I resented his decision. How does one let go of that resentment?

rpp,

Glad you had a terrific weekend. And it's even better that you had time and space to think to and from. I'm glad it was a good one!

I don't think I have shared this one with you. It was a gift to me from my IC and it rings so true that I have to share it with you.

Resentment occurs when we expect others to take care of our needs when we are not doing it ourselves.

From what you just posted, here's how I interpret that. You deferred all final decisions to your H, silently expecting him to back you up, and were disappointed when he overruled your feedback.

I also interpret that you feel you don't have a voice that is heard. That means an equal partnership from where I sit. Your H devalues your opinions because you have taught him that it's okay to do so.

I'm not saying that you might not have a valid reason for avoiding a brouhaha... but if it's conflict avoidance for the sake of conflict avoidance, what is the root cause of this? Were you taught as a young girl that your voice wasn't important? And since you offered a clue (your R with your dad), is there a possibility that you were hoping to resolve this R with your dad through your H?

Little tidbit of insight here - because many of us here (and I think it's an overwhelming majority) choose mates to resolve conflicts within our family of origin. You know... the people who look for acceptance from a parent who seem destined to be in relationships with people who will never give it. That kind of thing. My XH has a good deal in common with my dad. Most of it's good. Some of it is dysfunctional. The root causes are different, but it apparently was in my overall plan to deal with passive aggressive men.

I'd be interested to hear more about your R with your dad.

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't expect validation from your H. But you guys have communicated this message poorly and he's taken the upper hand. I'd feel resentment too. But go back to that little saying my IC shared with me and absorb that. Because it's nothing short of 100% true.

Sounds to me that you are realizing that your voice needs to take center stage and you are the only person who can make that happen? Change is uncomfortable, rpp. But you have to tell people what you need in order for them to give it to you. Those that love you and care about you will work toward compromise, at the very least. As long as you start these dialogs with "I feel" instead of "You make me" you'll get the leverage you need to be heard. Then it's up to you to figure out if these people who should have your back really do, and then devise a plan to work YOUR plan if they consistently choose to hurt you.

But again, it starts with you. You're getting there.

Hugs-
Betsey

Dayum, she's good.

We can't abdicate our power and then be upset when things don't go our way. When we give up our power, we give up our voice.

That tactic is unfair to everyone involved.

(( )) I know you're coming up against some really tough realizations. Dig deep.

Whew! Here we go

Originally Posted By: Underdog

Resentment occurs when we expect others to take care of our needs when we are not doing it ourselves.

Love this. Printed it out, in purple, and taped it in my office for absorption.

Originally Posted By: Underdog

From what you just posted, here's how I interpret that. You deferred all final decisions to your H, silently expecting him to back you up, and were disappointed when he overruled your feedback.

I also interpret that you feel you don't have a voice that is heard. That means an equal partnership from where I sit. Your H devalues your opinions because you have taught him that it's okay to do so.

All totally accurate

Originally Posted By: Underdog

but if it's conflict avoidance for the sake of conflict avoidance, what is the root cause of this? Were you taught as a young girl that your voice wasn't important? And since you offered a clue (your R with your dad), is there a possibility that you were hoping to resolve this R with your dad through your H?

I learned conflict avoidance from my parents without a doubt. I never heard them fight, ever. I didn't hear them in discussions that weren't fights. Shoot, they barely spoke for most of the years I was growing up. My mom at some point told me that my dad had some explosive anger outbursts in the beginning of their marriage and she learned to "walk on egg shells". I don't know the real story, but that's how it was packaged to me. Their 60th anniversary is next month.

I'm not so terribly sure that I didn't feel listened to myself as a child. Maybe. My sister and I fought verbally all growing up, no huge surprise. But my impression is that those fights were often resolved with my being forced by my mom to give in just to end the conflict. I was going to complain about it less than my sister was so I got the short end of the stick, no matter who was right or wrong. Again, I don't know if that's totally true or not, but that's where I sit now.

Originally Posted By: Underdog

I'd be interested to hear more about your R with your dad.

Well, what I was pondering along the drive is why my dad never told me growing up, never tells me still, that he loves me. I always say it to him, I don't get it back, and I don't expect it, but I want him to hear it anyway. I know that he does love me, he just doesn't say it verbally. In fact, even my mom growing up would say "love ya" used as a parting remark. It wasn't until I got to know H's family that I got comfortable with a full-on "I love you" said out loud and without apology by someone who expected to hear the same thing back.

My dad was not an involved dad. My mom did all the kid stuff. Dad paid the bills, kept the house repaired, the yard mowed, the tv shows watched. He didn't interact with us girls much, didn't tell me I looked nice, didn't come to my sports games, didn't attend church (or anywhere else) with us. If I asked him what he thought of some outfit I'd purchased, he'd reply that it was practical (high praise) or not.

I can count the number of times he took me out somewhere for fun, just the two of us. (Once, a movie). When my nephew was a baby, I saw my dad reading a book to him and realized that he had *never* sat and read with me.

So I was wondering about all that on the drive. I love my dad and he loves me, but our interactions were not warm and fuzzy. I know the wisdom that we marry our dads, but I don't see that it applies here.

Originally Posted By: Underdog

But you have to tell people what you need in order for them to give it to you.

And this is where I start making excuses to protect myself. Yes, in order to get something I'd have to ask for it. But if I never ask, then I can't get rejected and/or criticized. Time to watch a little Brene Brown.

That's some good advice. Just want to add 2c from the other side of that equation - it can really feel like a compromise has been agreed without knowing that the compromise was actually just appeasement. That can make your S rssent the resentment.

You could look up the principle of enthusiastic agreement.

LOL, Bug... I'd say this lesson was something hard earned for both of us?

rpp--I hope you realize that the only reason I have something to offer on this topic is because it's a road that required me to do the same work? My XH and I were both guilty of this dynamic. And the resentment took a long time to work out (with work). And just so you know, my XH let time be his cure. So periodically, he expects me to know what he wants or needs from me (in terms of the kids or help with the schedule or something obviously not maritally speaking), and then allows that resentment to seep in with me. The me now calls him on it.

When he does it, he gets snarky. I start by asking him straight up if I've done something that has annoyed him. We've worked past the passive aggression, so he'll either tell me no or yes. When the answer is no, he'll step back and apologize and tell me what the real issue is and apologize again for being snarky. If the answer is yes, then I ask him what he needs from me. It becomes our reset button. I hold him accountable for telling me what he needs, and when it is in my power, I accommodate him. If I can't, we work out some sort of remuneration. Again, ours are parenting issues.

It was awkward and weird at the beginning, and he didn't trust me not to react or exact revenge in my petty little way. I had to teach him how to trust me again. It took time and consistent effort, and I had to really work at not getting pissed off when I didn't get my way. Initially, he bucked me because he reveled in his newfound happiness to hear his voice. Then after awhile, that novelty wore off and he realized that his childishness was affecting his relationships with others. So he opted to get serious about working with me and we've never looked back.

Good communication requires a lot of work - at least in the beginning when you've had hidden contracts and expectations that have clouded everything. Work on the resentment and everything seems better.

I had to start with saying no when I needed to say no. I was always that person who said yes to everything and then got pissed off that I allowed someone to talk me into something because it suited THEIR needs. It's good exercise to say no when you might even mean maybe. And don't explain yourself - because that's usually my undoing. A good defense never needs an offense.

And here we go, back atcha!

Quote:

I learned conflict avoidance from my parents without a doubt. I never heard them fight, ever. I didn't hear them in discussions that weren't fights. Shoot, they barely spoke for most of the years I was growing up. My mom at some point told me that my dad had some explosive anger outbursts in the beginning of their marriage and she learned to "walk on egg shells".

You and my XH share this dynamic in common. In fact, he and his brother witnessed very long periods (one as long as 4 months) where his parents did not talk at all. They talked to each other through their sons. And my XH and BIL HATED it. HATED IT. My XH didn't do this with me. He and his brother were also told (and the "rule" enforced) that if you don't have anything good to say, keep your mouth shut. The "good to say" rule included addressing anything that was bothering them. So they both internalized it. To this day, they use alcohol as their means of tamping down their unhappiness, and the only way they can confront is if they have a few drinks under their belt to get the courage to do it. And when they do it that way, they diminish the importance of the topic at hand.

Fast forward to our marriage and he used the same coping mechanisms with me. They flat out did not work. And because he didn't work this out before, it changed flavors with me. I grew up in an excessively vocal, fighting household. So I railed on him. We bring our unresolved coping mechanisms into our relationships, one way or another.

So maybe you weren't told that you shouldn't have a voice, but you were certainly modeled behaviors that discouraged active conflict resolution.

Quote:

Well, what I was pondering along the drive is why my dad never told me growing up, never tells me still, that he loves me. I always say it to him, I don't get it back, and I don't expect it, but I want him to hear it anyway.

I think many of us here on the forum have experienced this one way or another. My maternal grandmother was the daughter of English immigrants, and she was very similar to this. "Keep a stiff upper lip" "Don't blather emotional stuff" (which included stating your feelings and telling others that you love them), and our perennial favorite, "What will the neighbors/they/whoever think?" My mom was in your shoes, and always wondered why her friends had parents who could openly say they were loved but not her. Though deep down inside she knew she was loved. It was just that my grandmother did what *she* was modeled and didn't know how to be anyone else. It was a foreign concept to her because her family did not show emotion. Ever. And if you did let it out, you were shamed. It made everyone uncomfortable, so it was your fault.

She married my dad, who came from a completely emotive background. The first time she met my grandmother, my Gmom kissed her and welcomed her back. She was appalled and very, very uncomfortable. My mom is not a self help guru, but she said that she realized then and there that this was her ticket to creating the kind of life she wanted going forward. She started by telling her mom that she loved her. I don't know how long it took for my grandmother to realize that it was okay, but eventually she succumbed to the American emotive way. By the time I came along, she was well okay with telling us all she loved us. In fact, the last thing she told me in 1992 was, "You know I love you, kid?" Yep, I did.

So maybe you do what my mom did and just flat out act the way you want with your dad and let him process it on his own? That way, you're authentic and you allow him to be authentic too. Try it on for size and see how things go?

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Yes, in order to get something I'd have to ask for it. But if I never ask, then I can't get rejected and/or criticized. Time to watch a little Brene Brown.

And sad to say, I totally understand this! But you now know that it is a trap, right? Reminds me of the movie Dodgeball (one of my family faves). Peter LeFleur tells Kate that he never sets goals so that he never feels disappointment if they don't work out. Unfortunately, that disappointment seeps out into every aspect of his life, which are traps to create failures because he never achieves anything at all.

This is also my sticking point. My IC this summer assigned me Brene Brown. Only my pit of excuses is my dating life. Or lack thereof. I'm not in a position to date right at the moment (being the executor to an estate has kept me horribly busy and is my free time/free thinking trap at the moment), but I'm working at keeping my heart open to the idea of someone special coming along. Uh, it's not my nature, so know this is a battle for me too.

Keep going, rpp. I think you're digging up some really valuable gold nuggets on this path.

(((rpp)))

OK, after all this exhausting deep work, let me post something really petty. My kids and I keep a shared calendar through a phone ap. H has access, of course, and usually posts when he's going to be out of town on a business trip. He'll post "Mr. RPP in Emerald City for Munchkin Convention" for instance. So...... what he's put on the calendar from 6:00pm next Tuesday to 8:00am next Wednesday is "Mr. RPP away". Seriously, what kind of business trip lasts from 6pm to 8am? It's a celebration with the duck for signing the lease and telling my kids. That's the night her ex has her kids. Mindreading? Totally. But I know I'm right. And I'm going to breathe deep and not bring it up. And then he'll move out and I don't have to know where the he!! he's spending the night.

Or maybe I ask him if it's a business trip and if he tells me it's with OW I tell him that's his move out date? Hmmmmm......?

Yes, Bets, this was hard won lesson in my life. Being an appeaser doesn't create good relationships.

Quote:

And this is where I start making excuses to protect myself. Yes, in order to get something I'd have to ask for it. But if I never ask, then I can't get rejected and/or criticized.

I had to realize that within myself. I had to face how P/A and downright dishonest I'd been, all for the sake of my ego.

There's a better way, rpp. You're getting there.

Ooh, you're gonna drive yourself crazy mind reading, girl! LOL

Originally Posted By: Little

Ooh, you're gonna drive yourself crazy mind reading, girl! LOL

I know! It's something I generally avoid. But this one is just soooo tempting.

So I asked him if it was a business trip. He said yes and said he'd be in (neighboring city). I can't dispute that, so I'll let it go. And know that a week after that I don't care where he sleeps.

Is it possible that my H is the most self centered man on the planet? I don't even want to explain why right now. Maybe tomorrow in the daylight I'll see it differently. Just venting a little before I blow a gasket.

It's possible. I'm a close runner up, I think.

Do you want to tell your kids you are walking out the door at their birthday party, Jefe? No ? You lose.

Actually it's not that bad. I am being dramatic. I am tired. I'll post tomorrow.

I didn't really want to win that one. Yikes.

I wouldn't want to stand anywhere near that stage on Sunday. Lightening is coming...

Originally Posted By: rppfl

Do you want to tell your kids you are walking out the door at their birthday party, Jefe? No ? You lose.

Actually it's not that bad. I am being dramatic. I am tired. I'll post tomorrow.

That is a tough situation, I am sorry you have to deal with that especially on a birthday. I can see you are protecting your children like any good parent would, I would be livid too.

This is where applying the techniques really become essential. Detachment from your husband's actions and acting "as if" will be really important. I know it feels impossible to detach right now but you are going to have to try your best, especially for your kids.

A good definition for detachment is "it is not detachment from the person we care about, but from the agony of involvement."

Your kids are going to need you to focus all of your hate and pain you are feeling right now and turn it into love and support for them.

It is not our job to punish the WAS or to show them the errors of their ways, life will do that for them. If your H actually goes through with it he will get a big dose of reality quickly. Hopefully he thinks about the kids and not just himself and does it at a different time, but we all know how selfish the mind of a WAS can be.

I would act as if you are not worried about him doing this during the birthday party. If it does go down though, just turn to your kids, no attacking or criticizing or punishing your husband. Don't make his issue your job to fix. Let the kids know mom loves them and let dad dig out of his grave alone.

But do not let him off the hook. If he says "mom and dad decided or mom and dad feel" and it is not what you decided or how you feel you need to calmly have him correct his statement. I have read this advice before on the boards and I feel it is important that the WAS owns every aspect of their actions.

Good luck and I will be thinking of you.

Originally Posted By: gogofo

I would act as if you are not worried about him doing this during the birthday party.

But do not let him off the hook. If he says "mom and dad decided or mom and dad feel" and it is not what you decided or how you feel you need to calmly have him correct his statement. .

Gogo, thanks for the good thoughts. And while I don't dispute the validity of your advice, I'm not going to take it.

The part about acting as if I don't care he springs the news on them at my S18's birthday dinner. I do care and I've said so. He has the rest of the weekend to make his announcement.

As far as making sure the kids know it's not a joint decision, that's covered already. We have discussed a script, and he is taking responsibility and making clear I don't want it.

The whole thing about him being selfish was in reaction to some conversations we were having by text last night while he was at band practice. This weekend is difficult to coordinate, most are when you have teenagers. S18 is home from college, wants to spend time with his GF, my girls have parties Friday night, D16 has a babysitting job on Saturday. In addition, H has a group of people in town from a business partner in China that he's supposed to be entertaining. The whole weekend is complicated and his only concern was when we were telling the kids. He just so desperately wants it out of the way. I can imagine the pressure the duck is giving him, and I wonder why he puts up with it. Nagging is not one of my vices. But that's his decision to make, good luck to both of them. Imma gonna stay in my own sandbox.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Lightening is coming...

Jefe, your have triggered my thoughts of a Jackson Browne song. I'll be humming it all day. Which is fine. It's a great song.

LOL. Glad I could help. I think...

You already know he's selfish. He wants out of his marriage.

I'm not defending him, but I think he just wants it over because it's looming over his head. You've put some pressure on him to get it done and the mallard may be putting some pressure on him or not. Who knows.

Point being don't read to awful much into because it will drive you bonkers. Trust me, I know. I spun my self into a fit yesterday on some stupid idea that was in MY head. I had it all figured out, where she was, what she was doing, who she was with... then SHE called right in the middle of my terrible imagery and blew it all to pieces.

You have enough reality to deal with don't add more weight to carry...(seems like I just said this last night to someone else...hmm)

Originally Posted By: Jefe

the mallard may be putting some pressure on him or not. Who knows.

I really don't put a lot of thought into the duck. I haven't asked a single question about her. She's simply not worth poisoning my brain over. But I do know in fact that she's putting pressure on him, he said so last time we were in MC about a month ago. She must be livid by now. Which I find perversely amusing. They deserve each other.

He was selfish before this separation issue happened.

Good luck.

^^^ Exactly

Originally Posted By: labug

He was selfish before this separation issue happened.

Yes ma'am, he was. One of my friends pointed that out to me the other day. A college friend who doesn't even know H well, has no idea of the details of what he's done lately. That was eye-opening, to know that others have that opinion of him without my saying it.

labug's gratitude assignment

In no particular order, I am grateful for:

1. Three marvelous kids
2. Insulin and the ability to measure blood sugar
3. That my H is acting civil
4. My job and the people I work with
5. Enough income to provide a house, food, cars
6. Friends and extended family
7. My faith
8. The health of myself and my family
9. The South Florida Sunshine

10. People on this board

Originally Posted By: Jefe

I spun my self into a fit yesterday on some stupid idea that was in MY head. I had it all figured out, where she was, what she was doing, who she was with... then SHE called right in the middle of my terrible imagery and blew it all to pieces.

+1. This happens to me too: my scenarios are always wilder than what really happens to my W. Usually, any contact with her will make me realize that it's not as rosy and fun as I thought. (It still seems rosier than being with me though!)

rppfl, I just can't believe that your H would think that a birthday dinner is the best time to share this news. It is so insensitive of him, and selfish. I hope this behavior allows you to see him in a new light that might make it easier for you to detach from him and bring the focus back to yourself. Your gratitude list is awesome. I think we should each make one every day. There is much else in this life besides our Ms and Hs. And much more life to be had!

rpp-

Just a quickie before I head out for the day. Tomorrow I'm heading to NY again for the weekend. This time to the big apple. I'll check in with you when I get back!

FTR, I don't think they are selfish per se. Self absorbed? Yes. Because this journey is all about them. Their channel of choice is MEMEMEMEME, station #1. And all the other presets are set to MEMEMEMEME too. Their "happiness" is what they've decided will take priority over everything else, even the kids. That *is* selfish, but I don't think they see themselves that way. At any rate, any attempts by anyone else will not be received well. I've been there, done that and have a crappy t-shirt.

But I can honestly say that a few things catalyze them back to more normal, if they are inclined to feel remorse. If not, well, then they were heading off to lala land anyway and never coming back. But my now D20 had the come to Jesus talk with her dad and told her how unhappy she was with his disappearing act. It bothered him enough to rein himself in. Slowly he reentered the real world, though he still has never been as plugged in as I am. Maybe because I'm the mom. And the responsible one.

So what I'm trying to say is that expecting them to put family first--right now--is like expecting a cat to bark. Don't set yourself or the kids up for disappointment by thinking otherwise.

And on that note, I would *definitely* pull him aside beforehand and let him know that your D's birthday party is NOT the time or place to have that chat. Hold him to that. Because her party is about her... not him. And you're not being unreasonable for wanting him to honor that. She'll always remember her birthday as a catastrophic day, and that's totally unfair.

What a dick. Okay, back to normal. I'm outta here!

Have a happy Halloween to everyone!

Betsey

Well,, well. C had told us that H needs to stick around a week after we tell the kids. H just told me he's in a business trip all next week. That's really convenient, isn't it?

Betsey have a great trip!

Good morning, a little journaling here: nothing to report, again. H was out of town last night. I had basketball practice with D12 and my team, dinner with both girls at home, quiet evening at home. My future in a nutshell. I don't say that in a bad way, I love being home with my girls.

Today is my S's birthday, so I updated my siggy. Happy birthday to my baby boy!

So.....I have a question about being friends with H.

I know some people say that building a friendship is an important step to R, some people say they are terrified of getting stuck in the friendzone, some people say they can't be "just friends". My position all along has been the last one, that I will be his W, but not his friend after he moves out. But I'm rethinking that today. Today it seems like,we have three kids together, we might as well get along. And if we end up "just friends" then that's a positive thing for the kids. I dont' want to be one of those couples who haul each other into court for the next 7 years. Friends seems like an appealing option. And if I have truly forgiven him for the A, then what's the barrier?

And if I decide that "friends" is OK, then what would that look like after we are S? My plan was to go totally dark except for kid stuff, but in reality, there's a lot of kid stuff. I'm going to be talking to the guy most days.

What's your position on "friends" with your WAS? And does resigning yourself to "friends" mean you are done?

If my wife started dating and/or moves on, I will be friendly towards her for the kids sake, I will not be her friend. She let that behind with the marriage. I could be wrong, but it's where I'm at today.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

If my wife started dating and/or moves on, I will be friendly towards her for the kids sake, I will not be her friend. She let that behind with the marriage. I could be wrong, but it's where I'm at today.

^^^^Ditto

Originally Posted By: rppfl

So.....I have a question about being friends with H.

I know some people say that building a friendship is an important step to R, some people say they are terrified of getting stuck in the friendzone, some people say they can't be "just friends". My position all along has been the last one, that I will be his W, but not his friend after he moves out. But I'm rethinking that today. Today it seems like,we have three kids together, we might as well get along. And if we end up "just friends" then that's a positive thing for the kids. I dont' want to be one of those couples who haul each other into court for the next 7 years. Friends seems like an appealing option. And if I have truly forgiven him for the A, then what's the barrier?

And if I decide that "friends" is OK, then what would that look like after we are S? My plan was to go totally dark except for kid stuff, but in reality, there's a lot of kid stuff. I'm going to be talking to the guy most days.

What's your position on "friends" with your WAS? And does resigning yourself to "friends" mean you are done?

I think it depends on how you're defining friend.

Not a river you need worry about now would be my view.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

If my wife started dating and/or moves on, I will be friendly towards her for the kids sake, I will not be her friend. She let that behind with the marriage. I could be wrong, but it's where I'm at today.

Thanks, Tar and Jefe. That's exactly where I was until a couple of days ago. Today, I don't know. I think where I'm struggling is that maybe agreeing to be "just friends" means I don't want to be M.

I have posted in the past "why would I want him back", it's a place we all get to. But we can question that and still want him back. The friends idea is coming with a lot more peace attached to it. Like maybe it's a viable alternative to actually wanting him back. I don't know.

Anyone else care to weigh in?

Originally Posted By: labug

Not a river you need worry about now would be my view.

labug, I think the reason I'm bringing it up now is because I am viewing my possible behaviors when H moves out in the next couple of weeks. How dark do I go? Do we continue to do things together knowing he's still in the A? How much time do we spend as a family, as opposed to just dad with the kids? It seems to me that I'd act one way if I was his friend, a different way if I wasn't? I don't want to act like I've suddenly come down with the crazies and be all over the place.

sandi had posted on another thread about the WAS not missing you unless you aren't available. So being friends would still make you available. They have to realize what it will be without you in their lives.

My H recently mentioned that he would always be my friend and that we would always be in each others' lives. I told him that wasn't true. We would coparent for the next few years, but then we wouldn't really be in contact -- just like his own mother and father when they divorced. That's the reality of the situation. I am done telling him I'll be his friend. I will be friendly toward him, but I can't be friends with someone who cheats, lies, and is generally untrustworthy.

At the same time, I have been where you are -- moments of peace in thinking that you can be okay as just friends. It's a good feeling while it lasts. The problem is that I think it might take a long time for that peace to be long-lasting. I definitely don't feel that way on an ongoing basis. It would be nice to sustain that feeling, if it's possible.

Rppfl - there's also a good thread in Midlife Crisis on "Friendly vs Friends".

Since STBX is the father of my kids - he can always count on my if he is in trouble or needs help - but I don't need friends like him.

Maybe as the years pass I will feel differently - I'd like to think so for the kids sake.

It's very early in my sitch, but it's hard for me to imagine wanting to be "friends" with my W after a D. There are so many feelings and unresolved issues that just can no longer be discussed. I think it would be uncomfortable. It still is with ex-gf, I find.

When you choose, just be sure it's for the right reasons, that is: your own sake. You don't owe him friendship. Also remember that it's not a choice between 7 years in court and a friendship. Most people are probably in between these extremes.

I'm increasingly getting to the place where I feel what happens happens. We have to cooperate for our kids. Beyond that I just want her either back or to have zero power over me.

"or to have zero power over me."

That is something you have control of and not your W.

I need a little sense talked into me this morning. I am meeting with H in about an hour to finalize what we are going to tell the kids and when, set a move-out date, and finalize the S agreement. I'd also like to get an agreement on the parenting schedule for the next month. I am really nervous. I need someone to tell me to stand up for myself, that if he gets mad about something it's not the end of the world, and it doesn't mean I have to give in. Help me!

The upside of all this pain and mess is that you get a chance to be YOURSELF. Standing up for yourself when you meet your H is great practice for that. And you'll be modeling strength to your kids, even if they can't see it. And it's the little bit you can do to take charge again of your life after the way your H turned it upside down without your consent.

And assertiveness and confidence are SEXY. So put on your lace undies if you've got them and be ready to be super sexy and strong.

Wishing you the best, you've GOT THIS.

Ok- I'll take a stab at it.

Rpp - You have been living with this nonsense for 6 months. Stand up for yourself - don't back down. Your H does not get to call all the shots here. You need to take care of your own interests and those of your children. If he gets mad or irritated, guess what? He was the one that put this all in motion. So he can blame himself.

Take a deep breath, put your chin up and tell him your opinion about whats best for telling the kids (um- yeah - not at a birthday party), tell him the move out date that works best for you and the parenting schedule that will work best for the kids - because frankly - you are the one that has their needs at heart right now, not him. Do it for you - do it for your kids.

Do not give in....do not give in...do not give in...and don't give the tiniset little d*** if he gets mad. Give yourself permission to not care - should be very refreshing!

Originally Posted By: Maybell

So put on your lace undies if you've got them and be ready to be super sexy and strong.

Already on under my work clothes. And he saw it all before I left the house.

Thanks to both of you for the pep talk!

If he gets mad, that's all him. It has nothing to do with you so don't take it on as your problem. Take a deep breathe and hold your line.

Back to the friends subject. I agree with Jim. If it happens, it happens but I think there's a big difference in being friends and just being friendly. No matter what tho, he should have zero control of your life, just as anyone else should have zero control of your life.

Live today, let the future take care of itself.

Nailed it. I am so proud of myself. Now I'm off to a well timed IC session.

Atta girl! Proud of you!

So things went ok this morning. I can't say "well" because we were talking about my H leaving me, but it was ok. We covered the things I thought were important, I accomodated where I could, stood my ground where I needed to.

We are telling the kids Saturday morning. We picked a move out date, finalized the S agreement, looked at the next six weeks for a parenting schedule. I refused to make a decision about Christmas yet, I want to see how I feel spending Thanksgiving together.

I already had an IC session planned before I knew we'd be doing this, so the timing worked out nicely. I believe my IC thinks I'm crazy because I can sit at St Arbucks and have a rational conversation with H about his leaving.

I was texting my SIL about it all and her comment was that she just wishes the whole weekend was over already. And I hate what's coming, but realize it's something I need to go through. I will be stronger at the end. And I will be ok.

Wow.

I am pretty tough, but you are a mountain.

Not trying to fan the flames of resentment and pain, and maybe I'm just extra sensitive right now, but I just still can't believe he'd walk from a 24 year marriage.

For you to be able to handle this like you have is just amazing. I'm sorry that you have to, but I'm sorrier for him that he is missing out on a lifelong partnership with someone with as much character and commitment as you've demonstrated. It's inspiring, and when I wonder if its even possible to have a M work these days people like you inspire me to never give up.

I know we can't predict the future but at some point I just can't imagine he won't come out of the fog. I just hope for his sake your still DBing.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I am pretty tough, but you are a mountain.

That's because it has all become about my kids now. We chose to tell them Saturday morning because my S19 is home from college, and its as far away from his birthday celebration on Sunday afternoon as I can get it. There were points I wanted them to hear so H and I wrote a script together. We set a move-out date two weeks from telling them so that H would be in the house to answer their questions and show them he's not running off. (It would have been one week, but he's gone on business quite a bit during that time.) I asked him to take his stuff out of the house when the kids weren't around. And on and on.

I appreciate your kind words. I was by no means a perfect wife, but I was a good one. And maybe someday he'll realize that. Or maybe he won't. Or maybe he will but I won't care.

I'm going to have an amazing R with someone someday. I really am. I had let myself get sooo lost during this M and I am viewing the S as a chance to reclaim who I am. And next time around, I'll do it differently. But, to go along with Maybell's thread, I can't see that H will be willing to put in the work it will take to be with me. After all, he already chose the easy way out, if he was going to put in any effort, wouldn't he have already done it?

Originally Posted By: rppfl

So things went ok this morning. I can't say "well" because we were talking about my H leaving me, but it was ok. We covered the things I thought were important, I accomodated where I could, stood my ground where I needed to.

We are telling the kids Saturday morning. We picked a move out date, finalized the S agreement, looked at the next six weeks for a parenting schedule. I refused to make a decision about Christmas yet, I want to see how I feel spending Thanksgiving together.

I already had an IC session planned before I knew we'd be doing this, so the timing worked out nicely. I believe my IC thinks I'm crazy because I can sit at St Arbucks and have a rational conversation with H about his leaving.

I was texting my SIL about it all and her comment was that she just wishes the whole weekend was over already. And I hate what's coming, but realize it's something I need to go through. I will be stronger at the end. And I will be ok.

((( ))))

You're the bomb!

Amazing rpp!!
When the empty boxes start coming in and the full boxes start leaving, it will get tough. Stay strong and stay focused.

Congratulations on what you've done so far. It's extremely difficult to participate to the dismantlement of our R. Getting to a point where we can do it is already a tremendous progress. I admire that you did it and you should be proud of yourself.

You're absolutely right that you have a bright future ahead of you. I don't know you, but I know that you're a thoughtful and committed person by your mere presence here and by your posts. I also know that you're going through a difficult experience that will make you a better person, learning things about relationships that too few people know. There are plenty of people out there for people like us. Someone somewhere is thinking the same thing that we do and our quest to find them has begun.

Originally Posted By: rppfl

I can't see that H will be willing to put in the work it will take to be with me. After all, he already chose the easy way out, if he was going to put in any effort, wouldn't he have already done it?

You can't see it now and neither does he. I'll repeat what I said elsewhere: it's the worst moment to hope for a reconciliation because the separation is at full momentum. The storm is passing through, we can just hunker down. We don't know but also they don't know if we'll ever reconcile. Right now, they think not. Just like everybody who eventually reconciled. Don't put too much stock into what's happening now. It's what will happen next that will count.

Stay strong, rpp. I wish I had something profound to say. You'er doing better than I would be. You got this.

Originally Posted By: labug

((( )))) You're the bomb!

Thanks! Right back at you.

Originally Posted By: bdub

When the empty boxes start coming in and the full boxes start leaving, it will get tough. Stay strong and stay focused.

He really isn't taking a lot of stuff, according to him, just some of his clothes and personal items. He's not taking furniture or any household stuff. I asked him to move it out when the kids weren't home, and he agreed. Hopefully no major moving boxes will appear.

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Don't put too much stock into what's happening now. It's what will happen next that will count.

That's true, Mozza. Yesterday, IC said something along the lines of do I wish that I could beg him not to go and he'd reconsider last-minute. And I said, no, he needs to go and I need him to go. Because right now I need the space as much as he does. And he can't come back if he never left.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Stay strong, rpp. I wish I had something profound to say. You'er doing better than I would be. You got this.

Thanks, Jefe. I appreciate your always stopping by with an encouraging word.

Truth is I'm feeling great today. I am not looking forward to the weekend, but I'm not viewing it with the same dread that I was for the past few months. I'm in the mode where I think a man that cheats on his W and leaves his kids deserves the kind of woman who would want a man like that (and that would be the duck, not me). I know that's a phase, I've been there before, and it probably won't last. But it's a strong place to be for today.

wow, rppfl. You sound so strong. I love what you say about not begging him to reconsider, and knowing why that would be a good idea. And what you say about him deserving the duck. I hope you can hang onto this strong sense of purpose and self. I hope the transition brings you some peace and space for healing.

Stupid mallard.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Stupid mallard.

Apparerently there's someone for everyone. Just didn't think it would be my H.

I feel like I need to defend the reputation of actual mallards...

You're doing well and its nice to read about even if the circumstances are %&�#

For those of you who are the praying sort, remember us in the morning. That's when we tell the kids dad is moving out soon.

Mallards are quite nice as ducks go.
Spouses not so nice! Lol

but juts keep walking forwards.

You are in my thoughts this morning, rppfl. Please let us know how it goes. I'm sorry you have to go through this.

Good luck. Stay strong.

You are in my thoughts. The announcement was a difficult moment for me. Your kids are old enough to understand that this is a defining moment of their life. Come back and tell us how it went.

Praying for you today.

Know that there are people across this entire globe that are behind you and supporting you.

Thinking of you and your kids and even your H.

He's a wounded duck. (I'm not sure why you call OW a duck but I just co-opted the label)

Also thinking you rp.

When we told our kids, it wasn't as bad as I feared: except for me.

Said a prayer for you last night. Let us know how things went.

Praying for you today.

Thinking of you.

How are things???

Things are ok. I am about to be at a work event, H is home with D12, teens are at places they had arranged preciously. I will update when I can. I so much appreciate the thoughts and prayers and outpouring of concern for me today. You guys are the best.

Hi RPP. I haven't been posting much lately but I've been following your thread and wanted to add my voice to your throng of supporters. I hope you're still doing ok.

So, this is how it all played out. Saturday morning was when we planned to tell them, so they'd have time all day Saturday to process it. D12 had spent the night with a friend, so while I went to pick her up, H took the teens to breakfast at their favorite place. When we all got back to the house, we were gathered in the breakfast room and H told them we needed a family meeting, and proceeded to cover the points in the script we had agreed upon. D16 asked right away if either of us was seeing someone else. My answer was of course no, H's was of course yes. D12 cried some. D16 cancelled plans that she had with her dad for tonight. S19 didnt' really say anything.

After that S19 left for his girlfriends house, which is what he had planned all along. And as it turns out, H left to spend the day with some business partners visiting from China, so that left me alone in the house with the girls. Kind of a relief, really, to not have H around. I talked to each of the girls separately during the day, told them how much both their dad and I love them. D12 is sad. D16 is angry at H. D12 wants to see H's new place. D16 swears she will never go there.

Last night I had a work event, S19 was still at his gf's house, D16 had a babysitting job, so that left H and D12 home together, which was probably good for both of them.

Later in the evening, D12 came in my room and we sat on the bed together and she cried and vented for a while. At a really inopportune moment, H came walking in and said, "Is everything OK?" I snapped and said an unkind thing. Later, after I had gotten D12 in bed, I apologized to him for saying the unkind thing in front of his daughter, and this morning, I apologized to D12 for saying an unkind thing about her dad to her. H heard me tell her that.

This morning, we are all at church together, and then we will go to brunch for S19's birthday celebration.

So.....other than the one place I briefly snapped, things went as well as could be expected. I've tried really hard to point out all the things that will be the same, be honest about the things that will be different, and be supportive of H in the sense that he's a good dad and loves his kids.

I feel nothing for H today. I'm not angry, I don't want revenge, I don't love him, I don't want him back. Just nothing.

I think you did awesome. I'm also happy for you that you seem to have detached from your H.

rppfl, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm glad to hear that you are experiencing true detachment, based on the end of your last post. I felt the same way after my H broke the news to our D14 (although he still won't admit affair to her). There is an emptiness. And a bit of shock on my part that it was really happening. Watch out for the tidal wave of emotions that might be following in the wake of this event. I know you will take good care of the kids as they process their emotions.

We all snap at some point, so don't get too down on yourself about that. At this point, I'm not sure if it even makes a difference, although of course we have the regret after. Just let it go and be compassionate with yourself. You are dealing with a lot. We are here for you.

Thanks, guys. One thing I did right was tell H afterwards that he did a good job sticking to the script we had agreed upon and staying calm. I told him I knew it must have been hard to tell them. And I meant all of that.

If my D12 hadn't been in the room, I wouldn't have regretted the unkind thing I said. It is true. I just shouldn't have done it in front of her.

I know that my detachment may snap back the other way tomorrow. I've been at this long enough to realize how the circle plays out. But I'm good for today.

Today is All Saints Sunday, and at church we were asked to write the name of saints in our lives and put it in a basket to be lifted up at Eucharist. I wrote down some of you by name, but I'm grateful for all of you.

I am so happy that you were able to do this in your way. I hope you can feel proud of how you handled everything, including your expression of frustration.

I think your H married out of his league.

I'm so sorry you had to go through this. I'm thinking of you and praying for the best for you and yours.

^^^^^

Great job, RPP. That is a difficult conversation and it sounds like you handled it with grace and class.

I agree with Labug. Your h out punted his coverage. Hope you have a wonderful day:-)

Sounds like you did really well with that. Your kids will need you but you know that and its clear you'll definite have that covered.

I think its a good example for others who need to have that kind of conversation

Originally Posted By: rppfl

Thanks, guys. One thing I did right was tell H afterwards that he did a good job sticking to the script we had agreed upon and staying calm. I told him I knew it must have been hard to tell them. And I meant all of that.

If my D12 hadn't been in the room, I wouldn't have regretted the unkind thing I said. It is true. I just shouldn't have done it in front of her.

I know that my detachment may snap back the other way tomorrow. I've been at this long enough to realize how the circle plays out. But I'm good for today.

Today is All Saints Sunday, and at church we were asked to write the name of saints in our lives and put it in a basket to be lifted up at Eucharist. I wrote down some of you by name, but I'm grateful for all of you.

1. Good job rpp
2. Well he deserves it. You apologised to each and that shows them that not only are you human after all, but you are thoughtful and compassionate.
3. Goes with the territory. Keep up the PMA.
4. So cool :-)

Originally Posted By: Old Dog

Originally Posted By: rppfl

If my D12 hadn't been in the room, I wouldn't have regretted the unkind thing I said. It is true. I just shouldn't have done it in front of her.

2. Well he deserves it. You apologised to each and that shows them that not only are you human after all, but you are thoughtful and compassionate.

Ahhhh....but you see.....I'm not allowed to be human. Any lapse is a character flaw. I've mentioned that before, but what H said to me after my little snip really drove it home. I didn't see it until the next day, but then, wow, it hit me between the eyes. And I don't need to live with someone like that.

Reading all the stories here and how spouses treat each other, both good and bad, both before BD and after, has made me grateful for what I'm not putting up with, but also made me realize that I don't have to be perfect for someone to love me. I should be able to have the odd bad moment or bad day, even, without being grounds for D. If I cry it's not a moral failing. I don't want to walk on egg shells the rest of my life. I want to be with someone who accepts my human-ness and shows me theirs in return.

So I'm still feeling pretty detached today. Let's see how the rest of the week goes.

I've been thinking of you, RPP. I hope you feel things in a bearable order.

I hope I handle it as well as you when/if we get to that point. Seems like you're doing very well considering!

Thanks, Maybell. I'm doing OK today.

Yesterday turned out to be a fine day. We went to church together, went to a really lovely brunch for S19's birthday, and then my team had a basketball game (a win!).

D16 is still angry with H, that was expected. D12 is still daddy's girl. I am a little worried about S19, since he's off at school with no daily family support, but I talked to him for a while yesterday as he was driving back to school, and encouraged him to use his school's counseling department. He seemed pretty open to that.

H moves out two weeks from today.

Originally Posted By: lost18

I hope I handle it as well as you when/if we get to that point. Seems like you're doing very well considering!

lost18, telling my kids was my huge mental hurdle since the beginning, and I think that's the source of my detachment. I just can't feel much of anything for a person who would willingly hurt my children for their own selfish purposes. I just can't.

Last night I started thinking of H as Mr. Weed (a fictional elderly neighbor). So....Mr. Weed and the duck. I think I should write a children's book.

And, just for everyone who follows along, it's a Muscovy duck, nothing so attractive as a mallard. We don't have mallards down here.

Hi Rppfl,
Sorry I've been on vacation and haven't been able to check in. My thoughts are with you and your children as you navigate this transition.

It's amazing how differently we feel about our spouses once we realize they're capable of hurting the children.

Originally Posted By: rppfl

lost18, telling my kids was my huge mental hurdle since the beginning, and I think that's the source of my detachment. I just can't feel much of anything for a person who would willingly hurt my children for their own selfish purposes. I just can't.

I never hated my H more than in the moment when we told our D7 and she WAILED. I could not believe that he was capable of causing her that kind of pain.

I'm glad that breaking the news didn't ruin your weekend. You're doing a great job supporting your children. I hope your PMA and detachment continue.

RPP, I often picture sitting at your table with you and a few of the other people here discussing this in person. You have a very human and down to earth quality that is very comforting. I am glad to know you, if only in text.

Jefe, that's a nice thought, all of us around a table together. I'll brew the coffee.

Opening a new thread before I get locked out:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2503564&#Post2503564