Help please - Some questions that id love some views on answers to.
1) in the M I wasn't meeting my Ws emotional needs. She felt unloved , unsupported and alone. I should have told everyday that I love her, am proud of her and there for her but I didn't. I told everyone else but I'm not sure she knew. Should that make a difference to my approach around my W? Being detached just feels like more of everything I did wrong to get here
2) she is lying to me about OM and her pursuit of him seems to be working. What should I do about this if anything? Should I say anything?
3) where should I set boundaries in relation to interaction round the house. At the moment I'm trying to make sure I'm not adding any pressure or resistance so that she is comfortable but actually that means she is not really having any consequences to her decision and continuing her lack of respect for me
4) I'm still paying all the household bills inc. Mortgage. When should I stop as we earn the same. Its always been like this - I pay the fixed bills she pays the flexible only now she isn't paying the flexible because we are leading separate lives.
5) am I better to hasten the seperation as this is what she wants now and it would show that im letting her go or am I better when she is at home so there is more chance for positive interaction (plus I see the kids more). I don't want her to leave but she feels trapped.
6) her chief complaints with me are that I was hurtfully sarcastic, that I wasn't making her happy and feel loved, that she felt overwhelmed by her responsibilities, that she had no time for her and that I had let her down too many times when she was upset. Is there anything I can do about these?
7) this is killing me. I can't sleep and I feel like my insides are ruined. I'm trying to be positive round her but I dont feel like I will ever be happy again. What can I do to make the hurting stop?
8) there is a load of other stuff she is not telling me because she doesn't trust me not to hurt her (verbally) is there anything I can do about this?
9) she isolated herself for years (she blames me but i never stood in her way and tried to encourage things) and is now coming out of that shell. Which is good but I don't get to enjoy it. with me providing reliable overnight childcare (which was always a major point of contention) it frees her to do dating which we have struggled with since D3 was born. How can our real world problems compete with the freedom she now feels?
10) and finally how do I know if I can ever trust her again after this. The OM and the things she has said about me are so unbelievably hurtful and her memories of incidents are so different to mine.
I know that's a lot but I guess I'm really struggling to see the way to save my M. Feeling quite hopeless about it.
jim,
i totally feel you on the isolation point. my W made me the center of her universe even when i tried to get her spend time with her friemds. even when she went out all i said was be careful and have a good time.
i know how bad it hurts and it never seems to end. but realize at some point (who knows when) it will.
prayin for ya
This is one of those things of what works best for you.
What will be better going forwards?
When living with them and arguing and them pulling your strings and pushing your buttons can be harder than living apart.
When mine left, it was sooooo peaceful and the stress and pressure less as well. It's still is in one way. In others it's tougher.
1) in the M I wasn't meeting my Ws emotional needs. She felt unloved , unsupported and alone. I should have told everyday that I love her, am proud of her and there for her but I didn't. I told everyone else but I'm not sure she knew. Should that make a difference to my approach around my W? Being detached just feels like more of everything I did wrong to get here
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. REALLY. THIS IS ABOUT HER BEING WITH OM AND THUS EVALUATING EVERYTHING IN YOUR PAST RELATIONSHIP IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT. THE MORE YOU LEAVE HER ALONE AND DETACH, THE HARDER IT WILL BE FOR HER TO CONTINUE SEEING YOU THAT WAY, AND SHE MAY START TO REMEMBER THE POSITIVES. IT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE BUT IT WORKS.
2) she is lying to me about OM and her pursuit of him seems to be working. What should I do about this if anything? Should I say anything?
THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THIS, UNFORTUNATELY. JUST STAY OUT OF IT, DON'T TALK ABOUT IT AT ALL WITH HER. IF SHE OPENS UP TO YOU, JUST VALIDATE, BUT KEEP YOUR EMOTIONS AND TRUE FEELINGS TO YOURSELF. YOU WILL WANT TO REACH OUT TO HER, BUT DON'T UNTIL SHE IS RECOMMITTED TO WORKING ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP, AND EVEN THEN PROCEED WITH CAUTION.
3) where should I set boundaries in relation to interaction round the house. At the moment I'm trying to make sure I'm not adding any pressure or resistance so that she is comfortable but actually that means she is not really having any consequences to her decision and continuing her lack of respect for me
SHE WILL FACE HER OWN CONSEQUENCES. THIS IS NOT YOUR JOB. THE MORE YOU LEAVE HER ALONE AND WORK ON YOURSELF, THE MORE RESPECT SHE WILL HAVE FOR YOU AND THE LESS YOU WILL CARE WHAT SHE THINKS ANYWAY.
4) I'm still paying all the household bills inc. Mortgage. When should I stop as we earn the same. Its always been like this - I pay the fixed bills she pays the flexible only now she isn't paying the flexible because we are leading separate lives.
IF SHE MAKES AS MUCH AS YOU, SHE SHOULD BE CONTRIBUTING AN EQUAL AMOUNT, UNLESS SHE'S OUT OF THE HOUSE AND YOU ARE BOTH MAINTAINING SEPARATE HOUSEHOLDS.
5) am I better to hasten the seperation as this is what she wants now and it would show that im letting her go or am I better when she is at home so there is more chance for positive interaction (plus I see the kids more). I don't want her to leave but she feels trapped.
LET HER DECIDE THIS ON HER OWN -- DON'T PARTICIPATE IN HASTENING IT. MAKE HER TAKE THE LEAD, THE RESPONSIBILITY. THEN SHE WILL HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS.
6) her chief complaints with me are that I was hurtfully sarcastic, that I wasn't making her happy and feel loved, that she felt overwhelmed by her responsibilities, that she had no time for her and that I had let her down too many times when she was upset. Is there anything I can do about these?
NOPE. GO BACK TO THE ANSWER TO YOUR FIRST QUESTION. THIS IS NOT REALLY MUCH ABOUT YOU, IN SPITE OF WHAT SHE SAYS. OF COURSE, THERE ARE THINGS WE COULD ALL HAVE DONE TO MAKE THE MARRIAGE BETTER, AND WE CAN LEARN FROM THESE EXPERIENCES, BUT THIS IS NOT THE MAIN REASON FOR HER LEAVING. IT'S THE FOG THAT SHE'S IN ABOUT THE OM. SHE IS INFATUATED, AND SEEING YOU IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT HELPS HER JUSTIFY HER SELFISH CHOICES THAT ARE TEARING ABOUT THE FAMILY SO SHE WON'T FEEL AS GUILTY.
7) this is killing me. I can't sleep and I feel like my insides are ruined. I'm trying to be positive round her but I dont feel like I will ever be happy again. What can I do to make the hurting stop?
GAL. IT'S HARD. IT WILL GET BETTER BUT IT TAKES TIME. BE PATIENT WITH YOURSELF AND REACH OUT TO YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS FOR SUPPORT AND AN IC.
8) there is a load of other stuff she is not telling me because she doesn't trust me not to hurt her (verbally) is there anything I can do about this?
NOPE. LEAVE IT ALONE. IT WILL JUST HURT YOU MORE.
9) she isolated herself for years (she blames me but i never stood in her way and tried to encourage things) and is now coming out of that shell. Which is good but I don't get to enjoy it. with me providing reliable overnight childcare (which was always a major point of contention) it frees her to do dating which we have struggled with since D3 was born. How can our real world problems compete with the freedom she now feels?
IT CAN'T. JUST ENJOY SPENDING TIME WITH KIDS AND FOCUS ON THEM AND YOURSELF. YOU CAN'T COMPETE WITH CRAZY.
10) and finally how do I know if I can ever trust her again after this. The OM and the things she has said about me are so unbelievably hurtful and her memories of incidents are so different to mine.
YOU WON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU GET THERE -- AND YOU MAY OR MAY NEVER GET THERE. I KNOW FOR SURE I CAN NEVER TRUST MY H AGAIN, BUT I AM MORE WORRIED ABOUT BEING ABLE TO TRUST ANYONE AGAIN. THIS IS HARD, BUT IT'S ALSO SOMETHING WE CAN WORK ON WITHIN OURSELVES.
Jim; you are getting great advice. You need to focus on your GAL and being a great father for your young children. You can't make your wife do anything. However you can change yourself, which will force your W to interact with you differently.
Good luck.
Jim. Read and digest what Ahoy said. (Excellent advice Ahoy)
My DB coach advised me to treat my wife as if she was my sister.
Also look up
destch with love. The pages about detaching and letting go.
(Not do) Old Dog xx
I suppose the thing I really can't get My head round is that she has emotionally detached and the way to save my M isfir me to do the same.....
I'm finding this really hard.
But I do know that I need to be a good father and get on with my own life. But I was doing this anyway so nothing really changes except how I interact with my W (less negative, no sarcasm, more verbal appreciation and validation, calm and pleasant)
The more I experience of this the more I feel like my M died with my W dad and that it's just she has accepted this and moved on already.
[I suppose the thing I really can't get My head round is that she has emotionally detached and the way to save my M is for me to do the same...]
Jim, I have the same problem. WAW seems to be a model of detachment. But that's the way it is. Concentrate on being the best you can.
Harder to do when 8 weeks ago I had unshakable faith that the problems in my M were just a temporary affect of raising two small kids.
Trying my best and reserving my best for my W and kids. Means my friends are copping the worst of my depression though.
She's a ship lost in a fog and I need to make sure I'm the brightest lighthouse.
If only she will look my way
So how much damage would it do to speak to my W about what she is doing and that however hopeless she feels that our M can be better than ever.
I am torn on this one. I found that sometimes my ex would really listen to me and some of the logic would get through to him. So my situation was somewhat different because he could be receptive - it just didn't stick after more contact with the OW. If you think your wife is receptive, then it might be worth a try (although others here will probably slap me).
However, what I needed to do when talking to him was the following:
* stay calm and don't lose my cool / get emotional. Don't take it personally
* learn to stop the conversation when it starts going downhill
* try not to accuse him of things or trigger the guilt flight response
* really listen and validate when you can
* don't put pressure on them if you are not ready for a decision
So a bit of journalling really.
Spent the weekend with my brother helping my mum move house. So lots of shifting furniture and unpacking boxes of miscellaneous junk. Unfortunately spent a lot of the time thinking about my W and how much I hate this.
I was out the house from 0700 Friday until 1600 sunday so got a couple of hours with my kids. W was really cross about how early i came back today but didn't say anything just had a couple of digs and spent most of the time messaging someone.
Still I had a couple of hours with the kids which was nice even if they were shattered.
As soon as they were in bed W disappeared into her room and left all the tidying to me - typical at the moment.
I did stop her briefly to thank her for always being so supportive of my mum (she has MS) and that I know how hard my mum made it for her by always talking about my ex. She simply said 'well I tried' and walked.
Now cooking a massive curry.
So my wife has filed for divorce citing unreasonable behaviour by me. Whoop
I knew it was coming but still hurts. No idea of the specifics she has cited. She won't tell me and there is no way to ask.
Stupid stupid stupid
I started a R conversation with W this morning.
W: I can go away if you want
M: I'm not sure. I wouldn't let anyone else who is so angry at me sit on my bed
W: I'm not angry at you I'm angry at being stuck here. I don't want to be here
M: youve been angry at me for a long time and I don't know why
W: I've explained it loads of times
M: no you havent, you avoid or shut me down
W: I'm not talking about this
M: I would like to know what has made you so unhappy you would choose to break up our family
W: I've told you loads of times. I'm not going over it again
M: well I don't feel like you have.
W: I don't want deal with these kind if conversations any more
M: I get that but that doesn't explain things
W: I've been miserable for a long time and you never did enough to support me
M: OK. I would like to know what I should have done. I know what I did do and I can think of things that I was too afraid to do but I'm just guessing at what I should have done
W: I'm not going to talk about it
M: when you feel like you can I would like to know what I should have done to support you
(Pause - 3 minutes or so)
W: have you booked your mortgage appointment yet.
M: yes its on Thursday. My solicitor has okayed the draft agreement so after Thursday I can send that accross
W: I've not seen it yet.
M: I sent you a copy weeks ago.
W: well I wasn't happy with it
M: its fine. My solicitor was talking form and legal standing. The specifics are to be agreed
Stupid stupid stupid
How much harm have I done with this?
This really is the most horrible experience of my life
So thinking on this morning and one of my 180s (to show more empathy) I think I should email my W with something like:
Hey xxxxx
Sorry about this morning. I imagine it made you very uncomfortable which was absolutely not my intent.
I thought that letting you know about the draft agreement would reassure you that there is some progress but you weren't expecting it and I shouldn't have caught you off guard like that.
I hope you're having a good day
Xxxxx
Does this sound right?
Which of the DB principles would this apology meet?
It would be a 180 for me. my empathy was never great and I really didn't show it very well so I suppose I'm just trying to validate her feelings and recognise that what I did was inappropriate.
Harder to do when 8 weeks ago I had unshakable faith that the problems in my M were just a temporary affect of raising two small kids.
Trying my best and reserving my best for my W and kids. Means my friends are copping the worst of my depression though.
She's a ship lost in a fog and I need to make sure I'm the brightest lighthouse.
The last sentence is something you should place in your wallet to look at each day.
Reserving your best for you kids is the key priority. Being good, mature, and a leader with confidence in front of your wife will be hard, but it is how you can save your M.
She has checked out and detatched. So she has to notice something different about you. She has to become attracted to you and decide to change the way she treats you, if the M is to survive. Your working on GAL, will dispell your depression, it will give you confidence and skills that will allow you to be an interesting leader for your W.
GAL, 180's are critical to DB. If you are really making GAL changes they will help cure your depression and your friends will be among the first to notice. Before my wife noticed some of my weight loss and improved fitness it was some of her friends at a work related party who commented on how good I looked that caused my W to take a whole new look at me. She had made a point of ignoring my GAL progress. Your wife has a lot invested in her detatchment. It will take a while for her to notice your GAL, but ultimately, she will and be surprised by the new you.
In therapy, when the sex therapist told my wife that my wife could choose to keep doing what she was doing, but it would result in divorce and asked my wife if she knew that. My wife said she did. The therapist then said if there is a divorce, it would be the consequences of my wife's choice to continue and ultimately her responsibility, not mine. The therapist finally told my wife that other women would be thrilled to have a man like me and did she know that. My wife said that yes, if there were a divorce I would likely easily find a woman who would provide me with the love I needed.
The point is that it will be your W that determines whether your marriage heals or not. You can do things by changing the way you act that may cause her to come to grips with whether she wants the M to end or not. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to force her to save the M. You just have to do all the DB steps and have faith that God has a plan for you.
Good luck.
P.S. if you want to work on your emphathy, why don't you start with your kids and let your wife see the new empathetic you in your relationship with your kids. Don't make any covert contracts to gain your wife's love, that is such a Nice Guy thing and not really attractive to most women. Still if Quality Time is one of her LL's then listening and being empathetic to topics she brings up and things she wants to discuss if a fine thing to do. Just don't bring it up out of the blue or when it was over say, "Did you see how empathetic I was with you today?"
Can I just repeat my thanks for you keeping checking in on me. The advice is gratefully received.
Strangely I'm OK empathising with my kids. I was talking to my mate about the empathy thing and his description was 'you do have empathy, your just rubbish at processing feelings so you don't know what to do with it' I think with my kids its easier because I have absolute faith in the mutual love so I just go on instinct. So might need to think whether the 180 needs a slight adjustment.
Ive kind of realised that my job is to make myself the brightest lighthouse and forget about my wife. If I do she might come back but if she doesn't then my kids will see it and I will know it so its win win. If only it were that easy.
I think it was on Tarheels thread, but there was something about how apologies were almost always to make US feel better, and usually only accomplished letting us feel it was dealt with. That in turn leads to future repeat issues.
Better approach which I like is to NOT apologize with words, but instead with actions. This forces you to ensure your next handful of interactions are positive. She's not going to think favorably of anything you have to say anyway. Just show her and don't talk about it.
There are exceptions of course, but I would stick to his strategy unless it was an absolute requirement.
Thanks Zeus. I decided not to apologise because actually I was doing her a favour and Ive spent far too long making her destruction of my family comfortable for her. Instead I texted and said I would be home late as I was going to the pub.
Don't get me wrong I'm going to make sure our interactions are positive I'm just not going to feel guilty if she doesn't like truthful answers.
Hi Jim,I'm with Zues, Mozza, and Young at Heart here.No need to apologize any more or keep playing the "Nice Guy" card. As a woman, I can tell you that comes off as desperate and definitely NOT attractive.
Perhaps in the past you needed to show more empathy. Okay. But now your wife is bailing on her family and you don't need to empathize with that, or with how it might be affecting her. Now is the time to validate that you HEAR HER. Not that you agree with her or wish you could make her feel better.
You don't
want her to feel better! Not about this.
You want her to get up close and personal with the consequences of her choices. Not consequences from you, but from the world.
It's her decision and reality bites. Don't save her from it.
And--You're absolutely right.
You should not feel guilty for being honest and up front about things. Again. It's REALITY. You don't need to browbeat her with it, or even bring it up. But sometimes she's going to "feel bad" about the consequences of her actions.
GOOD! ---------------------------------------------------------------
Now, on the other hand, you DO want her to feel better about you and the M.
And the way to do that is really be a man--not saying you're not, just that you should be channeling your own personal SuperHero or Manly Man of the Big Screen!
The first one that comes to mind is Rhett Butler in "Gone With the Wind":
"Frankly, Scarlett... I don't give a damn." Although in DBing fashion it would be more like:
"Frankly, Scarlett, that's something you'll need to sort out for yourself. My horse is waiting; I have a banquet to attend..." And let her hang around making gowns out of the curtains while her house is burning down...
A man who handles things responsibly, yet in a caring manner, by having integrity and taking the high road. Not punishing or withholding, but by doing what's required calmly and rationally.
By making the decisions that are best for you and your family--not for her or your M, yes they're important, but for now THEY COME SECOND--and sticking to them.
By communicating to her with ACTIONS the integrity you have as a human being. By being strong and decisive for all the right reasons.
And meanwhile by making the changes in yourself to be an even better human.---------------------------------------------------------------
So she's said you "never supported her"? So now you're supposed to "support her" in destroying your family? I think not!
You support yourself and your family. And you reinforce her positively when she behaves in a responsible and sane manner.
Ignoring her "bad behavior" as much as possible, except if it crosses into the "harmful for me/the family" territory. Then you take a stand with your
actions. Actions definitely speak louder than words now. Don't waste your breath. It will probably be misinterpreted anyway. Accidentally or on purpose.
Don't expect her to explain herself to you. Likely anything she says is whooey anyway.
Didn't you read the part where it says: "BELIEVE NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY"?
Because they will say ANYTHING to justify their choices, to make it about YOU, and to twist you into a pretzel over it.
Don't be a pretzel!--------------------------------------------------------------
Figure out the kind of person you want to be from here on out and then BE THAT GUY. The honest guy who is committed to his family, who is kind but not a pushover, who knows that he can stand on his own two feet, who loves his wife but will not sacrifice himself in honor of the love you once shared.
Show your wife this man, consistently, and from here on out. That's your best shot at turning things around. It's not guaranteed of course, but the alternative is to not be the man you want to be.
And I WILL guarantee that many other women would appreciate such a man.
(Whatisis's online dating adventures not withstanding.
)
And "assertive" doesn't mean harsh or judgmental. Leave the judgement to the judges. You only need communicate your stance on how you will conduct yourself and let her sort it out.
I'm not a vet--yet!--but when I read about guys I think are taking a little too much of the burden off their WAWs, I get my hackles up.
I think the majority of you are way too nice. So yeah. Reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" is a great start.
BTW--"Nice Guys" are the best! But they've gotta have backbone, ya know?---(G)GGG
Thanks GG. That seems like unbelievably good advice.
About 4 weeks in she had me convinced that it was 100% my fault. I unfortunately even agreed that with her and that if I love her I have to let her go.
I have a bunch more questions and a bit more of an update to give but that will wait until I've reread ^^^^ again
I've been pretzelled.
So an update.
As always an awkward couple of days round W. Generally friendly and a few laughs round kids and then the moment they are in bed the shutters come down and its back to tense and frosty. No real interaction.
I had a romantic weekend in Paris planned as a surprise for our wedding anniversary next month (only our 3rd and actually are R has been rubbish since that day). Anyways decided I'm still going but taking a good mate - should be very silly.
Had a good day with the kids - its harder than before because generally I'm much more down making it harder. I now understand why my W struggled with them so much.
Using some of the communication stuff I've learned with D3 and her behaviour is noticeably improving (and it wasn't bad). S1 is just chaos, entertaining chaos, but chaos.
Bit stressed about Friday as I'm at home with kids (asleep) while my W is going out on the pull to find 'some meaningless sex'. Not a good feeling for me. But its fits with her 25 year old self.
I have the kids all weekend so I think we might make Christmas cake.
Responding to GoatGal's excellent post.
Yes I'm a nice guy of the classic NMMNG description. That's something I need to take on and it stems from low self worth. Also something to take on.
My behaviour fit the classic description in the book and my lack of boundaries and self respect was a real issue. What was bugging me was why I was fine for 12 years (over 2 relationships) without it being an issue. That made me realise just how much my W emotionally closed off to me which is always going to make things harder. I got stuck in a 'just be patient and 'nice' and once we get through (1st child infant stage/FIL death/2nd child Infant stagd/GMIL death/massive work stress/Ws post pregancy body issues)it will sort itself out and we can worry about the things that bother me.
I've also always been rubbish at talking about emotion.
My W thinks I'm letting her go because I agree that its what's best (and she views it 100% my fault). I don't but not really sure if and how to correct this without it seeming needy.
I'm trying to deal with the divorce process in a matter of fact way. My W seems to be expecting some sort of backlash and is fearful of that.
Struggling with behaviour around her as my instinct is to be friendly and polite - but that means 'how was your day?' Questions. Dropping that just wouldn't be me and seems rude. Equally she when she goes out the polite thing to say is have a good time even though I absolutely don't support what she is doing. Not quite sure what to do there.
The man I want to be is Tony Stark rather than Rhett butler but that's a bit far removed from me. But I see your point very clearly. I'm still being nice because its an easier dynamic. The alternative feels like picking a fight or plain rude. Not traits I want to show. Same deal that she still lives here but has mostly given up on housework and I still pay 90% of the household bills.
So I suppose the things I'm really getting is that I need to be far more assertive, talk more clearly about my feelings when explaining anything and try and figure out this boundary issue.
I have also realised that she is pinning way too much responsibility for her happiness on me. She now claims differently but I never stopped her going out or meeting friends or phoning people. Yes I was sulky and sarcastic a lot of the time but that isn't the same thing.
So in some ways I'm back to where I've been for a few years and that is she is suffering from some sort of depression and that she needs to speak to an IC. Not that I can tell her this but I think it would be a condition of mine if reconciliation ever became a prospect.
Final question really is one that may seem odd but this all got much worse over the last few months as my W spent a lot (LOT) of time helping a new friend who was cheating on her husband with a married man. This has been going on for months if not longer and there chats were always about how amazing the affair is and how awful her husband is. Anyway they work together and message each other about 50 times a day. I was getting really anxious because W woukdnt talk to me but was constantly messaging friend and i didnt want to seem like i was getting in the way of her making friends for the first time since we moved here 5 years ago.
Does this seem odd to anyone else - it feels like they are feeding each others fog monster.
OK so that drifted into being mostly about my W.
When I made my marriage commitments I committed not to a faultless marriage but that I would see through all the rough patches and that I would do what I needed to do to make it work in the long term. I still stand by that because I want long term happiness and I deserve better than I got because I allowed that to happen.
I'm definitely still digesting the thoughts in GoatGals post.
jim0987 - It does sound like you need to be more assertive and better at setting boundaries. You come up with excuses why it wouldn't be you or it would be rude or something. But what we're going through changes everything. We can't be like before and expect a different results. It's what got us where we are. Have you read NMMNG? It's still on my pile of next books, but I suspect you might get answers there as to how changing your behavior wouldn't be rude, but productive.
Yes read it and it was a real eye opener. Its back in the pile to reread though.
A lot of it for me is dropping the expectations and covert contracts but having said that I perhaps need to give some more thought to being less friendly.
Jim,
Get the book, read the book. NMMNG.
Then respond to your wife with 80% of the warmth she puts out.
No questions, no "how was your day" unless that's where SHE is at.
I know it doesn't feel "natural" but it's not meant to.
You are, for lack of a better description, playing a part in a script.
Fake til you make it!
Being too nice, talking about the R--all the other stuff is not DBing.
And it will not work for you.
This does NOT mean you need to be distant or cold. I made that mistake at first. It's hard to find the right line to walk, but with some trial and error, you'll figure it out.
Be busy, a bit distracted, a bit mysterious, yet polite and friendly.
Treat her like you would a cousin or a neighbor. NOT LIKE YOUR WIFE.
Right now she doesn't want to be your wife, so this will not help her feel comfortable around you.
Repeat as necessary because it's gonna hurt and you have to get past the hurt and accept that this is your sitch now.
RIGHT NOW SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE YOUR WIFE.
Maybe one day she will, but if she doesn't respect you, this will probably never happen.
Women must respect and feel confident about a man's ability to stand up for her, and to stand up for himself.
Believe me, she KNOWS you love her and you don't want this. But let her believe that even though this is not what you want, you accept it and you are now living your life as though she will no longer be your wife.
THAT is respecting her position, is it not?
It will show her you are moving forward with what's best for you. And that's what you should be doing.
So if she's friendly and chatty, be friendly and chatty back, about 80%. End first, don't seek her out, but if she approaches you, be available.
Don't let her back you into discussions about the R or what you are thinking/feeling/doing.
It's just a starting point.
As time goes by you'll get a better handle on how she responds and whether your efforts are paying with regard to her feelings.
However, make the changes for YOU.
You said sarcastic and moody? Brooding? Whatever. Work on that. It's not pleasant for anyone to be around.
Be supportive---of the GOOD things she does. Keep the rest to yourself.
Her hanging around with cheating wives would not be something I'd support. So best to say nothing, or better yet--make yourself busy by getting out there and doing some personal growth activities for yourself.
You don't need to pick a fight or be rude.
Can't you be polite as you might to a waiter or some other person?
Stop acting like her husband. She has made choices that indicate that's not what she wants.
Well... let her see a bit of what that will be like.
In a nice way.
Yes. BE NICE. But be firm and remember the 80% rule.
---(G)GGG
PS: Oh yeah. And Tony Stark would be an awesome role model. Smart, powerful, determined, and can make a really cool flying robot suit out of some scrap metal in a remote cave in the desert.
So ask yourself: "What would Tony Do?"
Its the flying metal suit that wins everytime for me.
Thanks GG.
Im going to have to be more uncomfortable. It feels counterintuitive as she has had a few years of emotional distance to get used to it.
Boundaries will be new though but they involve the kids as that's the only thing we gave any interaction on.
I am going to bring up the finances again as she should be paying half the household bills for the time she remains here.
She's been unfaithful.........betrayed you and disrespected you in the worst way, and you are struggling over issues of rudeness to her?
Jim, you can be a good man......even a nice, friendly man.......but you are dismissing something so much more important than politeness - - and that is respect! Trust me when I tell you she does not see you as this "nice guy" that you describe. (For the record, I know about the Nice Guy Syndrome.)
I actually married an extremely nice guy. I thought he was the sweetest, most gentle and
polite man I had ever met. I had some notion he was the strong - silent type. But after M, I discovered he just didn't have anything to say! He never spoke his mind, stated an opinion, and was a pushover. What I had originally saw as some kind of mature, inner strength, quickly changed, and all I saw was his passivity. I hated how he never stood up to his family, or took up for his W, and let his mother boss our lives. Yeah, I lost a whole lot of respect for him, plus the resentment kept building over the years. So, I can honestly share how a woman feels when M to this kind of "nice guy". I can tell you this much.......she would trade all your polite, friendliness for a take-charge man who would put her in her place if she ever even rolled her eyes at him. Your niceness is not worth a plug nickle if you don't have the respect from the other person! And no woman can respect any man who won't stand up to her. (And she
will test him to see if she can mistreat him.)
If you were my son, I would tell you to stop being a nice doormat and stand tall and firm. If you understood women, you would know she has to respect you before she can feel in love with you. And if you still refuse to take a stand, then anyone will be able to walk over you......and they will.....for the rest of your life. When you die, they won't remember you for your nice ways, they will remember you were a push-over. You have to ask yourself how much has your dignity cost?
Btw, Rhett Butler may not appeal to you.....but he sure appealed to Scarlett
after he said that famous line. Made her forget all about that Ashlee character.
Yes read it and it was a real eye opener. Its back in the pile to reread though.
A lot of it for me is dropping the expectations and covert contracts but having said that I perhaps need to give some more thought to being less friendly.
Jim; The women advising you are giving you such great advice on a woman's perspective. Please re-read their statements about what is attractive in a man.
Ending you role as a NMMNG Nice Guy is not about becoming less friendly. It is about becoming an integrated man. It is about finding your inner core of beliefs and being true to them. It is about focusing on the big picture of life.
As you know a NG bargins and does covert contracts to try to get his way. An integrated man knows what is right and confidently expects and acts that what is right will happen. Sort of like visualizing success, you visualized and "will" the right thing to happen.
My suggestion is that after reading and re-reading DB and NMMNG, that you read up on self affirmations and self hypnosis to work on your self estime and confidence. You really need to get your mind to that Gone with the Wind point where you can look at your W and say with 100% confidence, that "...There are lots of women who would be thrilled to provide me and my children with the love and respect we need." If it ever comes to that, don't say another word, don't explain yourself, don't threaten her and especially don't do any covert contact stuff that if W does A everything will be OK and you will take your W back.
One of the key roles of an integrated man is to provide a safe and loving environment for his children. That is why he should carefully choose a mate and cherish and respect her prior to starting a family with her. You care about your W. She is acting nuts and self destructive. You don't have to be "less friendly" to her, but you do have to stand up for your children and you, in that order.
Good luck.
Sandi, young, thanks both.
Its uncertainty on my part - new territory for me. That's nothing to stand up to or with. She took the last of my masculinity when she rejected me and made me believe it was because I had bullied her.
Can't see how to start coming back from that without out making a scene. I am genuinely nothing to her these days except additional childcare and a barrier to her new fantasy life. Anything I do will just be seen as unnecessary posturing.
Apart from abandoning the marriage she and I are both trying our best for the kids
Still mulling this over which is a good thing. I've been so worried by the fact she thinks I'm not supporting her and that I'm mean, manipulative and controlling. That and her continual threats to take me children away from me or ramp up the legal side.
For all my psychoanalysis the lack of respect has been the big issue that got us here - I think all the other incidents may have been resolved or that we would have broken up sooner but at my doing.
I've made a fair offer for her share of the house and agreed an arrangement about the kids ('I want them 100% of the time, and so do you, so please don't expect me to accept anything less than you would be willing to accept.'). When its come to the kids I have been assertive and confident and am getting more so - need to channel that accross. I need to find a way to not give a damn.
I can really see where I went wrong but am struggling to see what to do in the current circumstances.
My reading list has shifted to things like, building self esteem, instant confidence and daring greatly as well as a couple of parenting books. I'm trying to get my focus over to be a man.
Its straightforward man up isn't it?
Still mulling this over which is a good thing. I've been so worried by the fact she thinks I'm not supporting her and that I'm mean, manipulative and controlling. That and her continual threats to take me children away from me or ramp up the legal side.
Start here, Jim. A lot of WAW's lay guilt at the feet of the LBH. She will find something to justify her own behavior. It is easier for her to point fingers at you. She's pretty sure you will own that guilt, which in someway relieves her. You worrying about how she thinks of you is the first area you need to adopt Rhett Butler's attitude. Stop allowing her tactics of blame games to work for her. If you shake it off and have a more nonchalant air about it, she will see it doesn't work on you any longer.
As her H, it is not your responsibility to worry about her thoughts, feelings, concepts, or ideas. She is an independent adult who can choose to feel or think however she chooses. You live you life according to your beliefs, value system, personal standards, etc. But you refuse to be her target for all that's wrong in her life. She has to take responsibility for her own happiness.
You say there is nothing to stand up to? I'll bet she shows some little signs of disrespect on a daily bases. You have simply accepted your role as doormat and have become so accustom to it that you have chosen to have impaired vision & hearing.
Women give all kinds of signs of her disrespectful attitude. Just watch her facial expressions when you say or do something. Watch her body language. Listen to her heavy sighs or grunts. Even when she make statements to the kids about their father. It may sound I directive, but it is still a personal hit at you!
Start with small things. When she does something that shows her bad attitude about you......call her hand on it right then. Don't schedule a time for some type of talk or anything. You don't have to make a big issue out of it, but you do have to call her hand on it.
If you have children, never doubt for a minute that they aren't watching and reading her messages about how women are to treat men and how men are to lay down and take it. They need to see daddy in a strong, assertive, role of leadership over the home/family. Right now, they know mom's the real boss and daddy is just one of the kids.
Don't misunderstand, you don't have to be mean & nasty. Just learn to speak in a firm voice that let's her know you mean business. Look her eyeball to eyeball when you tell her. Don't say it under your breath as you're walking away, or wait till you get in the next room and yell it back to her. You stand up, walk over to her and look her in the eye and very firmly tell her you will not tolerate being disrespected in front of your children (or whatever the case). That includes eye-rolling, smirks, and other obvious body messages.
Sandi, your advice is amazing and I'm incredibly grateful (like so many others you've helped).
I always told the kids 'mummy is in charge' because that seemed like the way to an easier life - otherwise I was always on eggshells. She has been so miserable for so long and I had so much guilt over her dad and the way I treated her over her exs I just let her walk all over me.
She has got really upset by my sarcastic remarks, big sighs, sulking and general passive/aggressive nonsense all because I didn't assertively stand up to her.
Ive been so weak and defensive for so long its a hard habit to break. Not helped by a big long running issue at work that my boss won't let me solve (and I whined about to my W, a lot). Weak, helpless, negative and unsupportive is probably her view of me
Her and her friend have got a little Thelma and Louise about it all ('its us against the world, we just need a real man')
I genuinely feel like it us too late to save my M but that I need to find my backbone regardless.
Right - two posts to follow 1) angry rant to help me channel my Rhett butler 2) some new boundaries
Post 1 – Angry Rant
This was going to be angry rant to bring out my anger in a more healthy way and here since i doubt i should say any off this but as i started i realised that it was a lot like a scorecard and a lot of blame. Instead i’ve tried to say the same things but remember Coach’s post about boundaries and some of what i’ve read about being assertive
So angry first:
How dare you do this to me and my family.
It is unacceptable to me and the commitments that we made that you would choose an affair over talking to me, That you would choose breaking up our family, giving our children split homes and bring financial hardship on us all over talking to me. That you would confide all of your issues in someone from work rather than talk to me, your husband. And when I tried to talk to you, you would dismiss me as needy and insecure or give me countless other reasons for why you were sad.
Over the last few years I have put up with a miserable wife who seemed to take no joy from anything, was constantly putting up barriers and belittling me. What responsibility did you take for your own happiness? When you said you had no friends – what did you do to make them? who did you contact? It wasn’t me that didn’t answer the phone to your mum. It wasn’t me that didn’t contact your old friends. It wasn’t me that kept turning down offers from Sxxxx. It also wasn’t me that stopped your family coming to visit. You isolated yourself from everyone, me included. When you complained that you wanted time to yourself i said i could take the kids out – you never took me up on it. I have never criticised your ability to mother our children but you have still managed to take that offence from somewhere.
For three years you have rejected my affection, assumed that the only thing i wanted was sex, dismissed my attempts at conversation, and ignored me for large tracts of the day. And in that time you never made any real attempt to work with me on building our relationship – you were too focused on your own misery and resenting me for it. Feeling hard done by because our lovely home was over 3 stories or that you had to work to help make ends meet or that I didn’t give up my career so that you could go and live near your mum or that when you wanted to go on holiday I said it was too expensive to do if we are also going on holiday with your sister next year and to see your friend in new Zealand the year after or that i have a job which means i actually have to go to work.
Yes i made sarcastic remarks, and yes I behaved in nervous and anxious ways and unacceptable ways that would have pushed you away. And yes when i harangued you about your exs it hurt you, but that was as much to do with how they hurt you. And yes I was truly awful on the day your dad died – but you decided that you wouldn’t speak to me about it any more, just because i didn’t know what to do doesn’t mean i wasn’t there for you, this was your assumption. I have apologised countless times for those but had them held over me like a sword of Damocles and meaning I have spent the whole time walking on eggshells as a result. But you know what I managed 12 years of stable and happy relationship without these issues – so what changed? Well for a start you have spent 3 years projecting all kinds of stuff on to me, rejecting me and ignoring me for you then to complain that I acted insecure.
I imasculated myself for you in a desperate effort to win your attention and forgiveness and it didn’t work. Instead you turned your attention elsewhere rather than face up to the issues and deal with them. That is the cowards way out.
I know you haven’t enjoyed the last few years and that you’ve been miserable, believe me i know, but when you decided to break up our family, to have an affair, to betray me, you lost the last of my respect for you. If this hurts to hear, if you don’t believe it, if you are unwilling to accept the damage you are choosing to do to our kids or you want to put it all on me then believe whatever you want because frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.
Right same as above but more constructive:
I understand that you have been hurting for sometime, and you are not alone in that. It hurts and disappoints me that you would choose to break up our family and pursue an affair rather than talk to me openly about what was bothering you.
My happiness is my responsibility and the same is true for you - as much as you may like to blame me it cannot all be my fault and therefore I will not take all of the blame for this. If you can’t or won’t face your responsibility for what has happened then that is your problem not mine.
I would choose to work on our perfectly fixable relationship to provide the home that our children deserve and share a lifetime of happiness with you. But that is not my decision – it requires both of us to work together to face our individual issues and take responsibility for our own happiness and self esteem. I will do my part regardless but please know that the decision here is yours and yours alone. Do not expect me to do anything to assuage any guilt you may or may not feel you must deal with that on your own terms.
Any decisions I make from here will be what I believe are in the best interests of our children to ensure that this does the minimal possible harm to them and I will not support any decision that I do not believe helps them.
Post 2 – Boundary Time
- I will not discuss any aspect of the separation and divorce settlement in front of the children. If my W tries to discuss this I will state my position and ask her to wait until an acceptable time. If she continues to persist then I will politely tell her that I will not discuss it any further.
- I will ask her to transfer me the money for half of the household bills and to make arrangements to do so each month she remains in the property
- When i dealing with any child related difficulties (refusal to eat etc.) I will politely ask her to refrain from interfering. Equally when she tries to override or correct me then i will ask her to not do that. I will extend the same courtesy to her which includes not stepping in when she is unable to control the children until such time as she requests my assistance.
- If my W threatens legal action or makes another threat in relation to the children then I will tell her that that is unacceptable and i will end the conversation until such time as she has calmed down.
- If i notice my wife disrespecting me I will call her out on this firmly and politely.
- I will not ‘hope she has a good evening’ when I know full well she is going out to engage in behaviour which I find unacceptable in a marriage (sleeping around). Its best i say nothing.
If anything else springs to mind that i’ve missed please or if these aren't right let me know.
jim... No letters or speeches, okay? (If that's what the writing was about... what you would say/not say.)
She's not going to hear anything but "blah..blah...blah... you're WRONG...blah, blah, YOU MESSED UP... blah...blah... Here's what I think....blah....blah.. I know better than you...."
Not that it's what you're trying to say, but very likely how she will interpret it.
I'd just leave it alone for now. No need to explain anything.
She has stated her position and you are going to now live your life as a reflection of that.
The more you talk about how you feel and what your position is, the less she will hear anything you say. Instead, it will only annoy her.
Trust me.
The LESS you say, the more she'll notice, especially if you let your actions do the talking for you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
All the above stuff ^^^ about your boundaries sounds really good.
You're not telling her what to do, you're just showing her that you are going to make your choices too, based on what's best for you and your children.
I think laying it on the line about the expenses is quite fair.
If she doesn't like it, too bad.
Nothing you've stated above is unreasonable in the least.
(And even if she doesn't tell you so, she probably knows this as well.)
Be polite, but firm. Refuse to engage with her, especially in front of the kiddos, and keep on with your Rhett Butler BAD self!
Be prepared for some backlash though.
They don't like it when we behave reasonably and calmly because they don't expect it.
They are expecting drama, and want to accumulate lots of ammunition from our behavior that they can use against us.
"See? I KNEW he/she was crazy/cold/selfish/lazy/sloppy/useless/angry..."
Don't give her any ammo to use against you.
When in doubt, say nothing.
Come here and post and see what is recommended as a next step.
They also hate it when we start to move forward with our lives based on what they have said they want. So again, be prepared for some nastiness to come your way because of your GAL activities and not making her the center of your universe.
When that spew comes, and it probably will, just let it roll off. Let HER act like the crazy, angry one. You just just "kill her with kindness" as they say.
It's hard to be angry with someone who doesn't engage; who is calm and fearless. Think of Ghandi.
How long could you scream at a Tibetan Monk deep in meditation before you get so bored you just hike on down the mountain?
I rest my case.
---(G)GGG
Well done! Did it feel good to put that all in writing? Did it clarify a few things for yourself? Perhaps you have a new perspective on your W's behavior? Does it change your view of a reconciliation?
Now, knowing you can never send her theses letters nor tell her in person, speak with your actions. You say you don't give a damn, that it's for her to deal with her guilt, that you'll act in the best interest of the kids, that you will no longer be emasculated, that you'll work on yourself... DO IT!
It's good that you wrote out these points. Having them in your mind will help prevent being caught off guard. Knowing
now what your plan is if she does something out of line will help you enforce it. It wouldn't hurt to have a plan for what you would do if asking her politely doesn't work.
Remember, being assertive is not a negative trait. I couldn't help but smile when I saw how many times you inserted the word "polite" when writing out your boundaries. Maybe you need to try and lose that word for a while. When you are dealing face to face with a wayward woman, you have to get her attention through firmness. She has to see you are serious and mean business. Yes, be nice/polite if it works, otherwise......
I'm just trying to get you to toughen up. I'm really not trying to turn you into a mean person. It won't feel exactly comfortable the first time or two you put this into practice, but I think getting your masculinity back will feel very good.
The things you described in your angry post about your passive-aggressiveness......seem to fit with what's going on. You take & take until when you do release something, it comes out snarky and weak. That isn't attractive in men or women. You have tried to get along with people by being polite and avoiding any possible conflict with them. That may work up to a point, but certain roles we have in life and/or the people we deal with on a daily bases will at some point put us to a test. I wish human beings weren't that way, but most are. Bosses, co-workers, in-laws, spouses, kids, friends, you name it.
You don't have to go looking for a fight, just don't fear the threat of one.
What can you do that would be a way of working off some of your pent up anger or anxiety? Some guys have a punching bag hanging in the garage b/c it gives them something solid to actually hit and work out the frustrations of the day.
It's good when you let off steam in a post to do like you did in yours and tell us at the beginning that's what you're doing.
I have a good feeling about you, Jim. You are still young enough to turn yourself around.
Thanks all.
Yes fear not I have no intention of saying any of that to her unless it comes up as part of enforcing boundaries. It felt good to get it out and it actually felt even better when I rewrote it. Something twigged I guess - she denies the A (I have proof) but actually at the end of this its her conscience that has to live with the truth.
My default plan is that if she encroaches my boundaries I will tell her and if she continues I will tell her that the conversation is over and walk away.
It worked already this evening. W asked about my mortgage appt.
M: I'm not discussing this now.
W: when the kids are in bed?
M: of course.
(Pause)
W: is there a problem?
M: I'm not discussing this now
Not great but a simple start.
Because of the nice guy stuff when I'm firm I tend to be mean because its repressed anger - so the politeness is about finding a balance until I get more comfortable with thus.
I tend to take my anger out on a squash court so that helps (playing tonight)
I don't feel that young.
OK things got nasty quickly. Way quicker and way nastier than I thought.
Went to discuss it. Rough summary is that I explained what has happened and she said there was no need to grumpy. I said I'm not being grumpy I'm just not discussing it in front of the kids.
She changed the subject to wanting me home by 1630 so she could go out. I said id be home when i finished work. she started getting aggressive - Saying lots of stuff about our agreement. I said that isn't what the agreement says and repeated that I will be home when I finish work.
She continued. I said I'm not discussing it any further while you are in this mood and left the room. She followed me having a go. I reiterated that I'm not talking about it now. She started sneering and threatening ('I'll remember this'). I said I'm not prepared to discuss any if this while she is sneering at me. She carried on and so I said I will go upstairs until you have calmed down. She was having a go the whole time I walked away.
Is that right? Or am I way off? Does my tone matter?
Wowza. W started again this time trying to take the high ground of how rude I was.
This could be rough for a while.
My concern is that this will make the divorce very fractious rather than help with the M
Yes, of course your tone of voice matters. And Jim, she has ruled the roost for a very long time. She is not going to give that up easily.
Rough summary is that I explained what has happened and she said there was no need to grumpy.
Maybe in your resolve to be more assertive, your tone was strange to her ears? Were you sounding grumpy, or were you just stating facts in a serious fashion?
I said I'm not being grumpy I'm just not discussing it in front of the kids.
I don't understand this. I thought you went to discuss it and she said you were grumpy? Did the kids go into the room while the discussion was going on?
She changed the subject to wanting me home by 1630 so she could go out. I said id be home when i finished work. she started getting aggressive - Saying lots of stuff about our agreement. I said that isn't what the agreement says and repeated that I will be home when I finish work.
That's okay. She doesn't like it when she doesn't get to call the shots. She can get over it.
She continued. I said I'm not discussing it any further while you are in this mood and left the room. She followed me having a go. I reiterated that I'm not talking about it now. She started sneering and threatening ('I'll remember this'). I said I'm not prepared to discuss any if this while she is sneering at me. "I've given you my answer and your sneering and threats will not change it." She carried on and so I said I will go upstairs until you have calmed down. She was having a go the whole time I walked away.
You did pretty good there. You are just getting started and learning. In the future, you may avoid appearing as if you are running away from her while she's badgering you. Turn and walk up and get nose to nose with her (if necessary) and tell her that her threats are useless in changing your answer. Then you can turn and walk away, but don't announce you are going somewhere until she calms down. Let her figure it out. She'll get the idea.
Expect her to put up resistance. You've been her cat to kick around for a long time. Just don't let things get physical. Leave the house if heads that direction.
I hope you are not thinking of sending the second half of that "rant."
Detach! Detach.
There are some good things you have written to say to yourself, but there are also lots of covert contracts embedded within what you have written.
....It hurts and disappoints me that you would choose to break up our family and pursue an affair rather than talk to me openly about what was bothering you....
...I would choose to work on our perfectly fixable relationship to provide the home that our children deserve and share a lifetime of happiness with you. But that is not my decision – it requires both of us to work together to face our individual issues and take responsibility for our own happiness and self esteem. I will do my part regardless....
Communicating the above probably isn't going to help you until your W had demonstrated a real change in attitude and begged (literally begged) to come back. The message I read from you is that she can walk all over you and get away with it, any time she wants.
It is tough love time. You will be far better off focusing on your GAL and DBI-ing, then trying to talk some sense into her.
Thanks Sandi. Its very unfamiliar to me so a bit weird. Unsurprisingly I worry that it feeds her view that I'm a controlling bully - she has previously said I'm attritional in arguments.
My tone was calm but may have been quite forceful because I was trying to control my emotions. Difficult to know how it seemed to her. Not sure I had the expression on my face under control though.
Should have been clearer it was after the kids were in bed. I was restating my position about not discussing it in front of the kids
Your right I should have stepped forward I was trying not to as I didn't want to seem threatening.
Its new but I'll learn
Great advice, sandi!
Jim, I think you handled this very well for your first time out of the gate.
Like I said, expect her to push back and get nasty. And so it has started.
She's not used to this from you and it sets her off balance.
You just continue to stay calm, and like Sandi said, don't feel like you're the one who needs to walk away.
Sometimes getting "nose to nose" communicates your point VERY well.
Not a bullying stance, but a firm one. Stand up straight, take a deep breath, look her right in the eye and say "No. We will discuss this later." Then ignore her and go about your business.
Be prepared for her to escalate, as she has already shown she will do.
(Boy, THAT was fast!)
But I wouldn't worry too much about this setting the stage for how a divorce might go.
This is really just the beginning dance. She is not used to you asserting yourself and she is trying like mad to control what's happening.
Eventually, she will fizzle out. You'll know when it happens. Then you can pat yourself on the back.
Don't engage..
As we say around here, "Drink a big ol' swig of STFU juice and take a nice dose of CTHD." (You can look those up.) Worked for me.
Still works wonders.
Hang in there!
---(G)GGG
Expect her to put up resistance. You've been her cat to kick around for a long time. Just don't let things get physical. Leave the house if heads that direction.
I agree with this and I also think you did well for a beginner. Don't forget also that things have a way of evolving after they happened. In the middle of a fight, one person might be convinced of their own righteousness, but a day later, they realize what fool they've been to argue this much. I suspect your W will soon realize that her aggressiveness is not to her advantage. Make sure you have a reasonable case, then keep firm and calm. Think of what an external observer would say about your mutual positions. Or perhaps think of a role model and try to act like him/her. Time is on your side.
Or, as someone once said, "have the discussion as though your granny were sitting there watching with a video camera and it was going to end up on National Television."
That's the mindset you want, Rhett/Tony.
I'm now thinking Sean Connery in the Hitchcock film "Marnie".
He was that right mix of firm assertiveness, yet showed genuine caring and he had her best interests at heart. But he told her in no uncertain terms what he expected and he was definitely a "take charge" guy.
(At least, that was my impression from the bits I was able to catch.)
I know... I'm weird. I really need to have a character in my head to play some of these scenes.
(
Yee-haw y'all, it's gittin' close to quittin' time here on the old Triple G ranch and Cooky is gonna rustle us up some vittles, heard tell it was beans and cornbread. Ummm---UM! Don't it just make yer belly rumble???" )
it doesn't come naturally for me either. I don't think it does for anybody at first.
Do whatever silliness you have to do to channel that strong, yet sensitive, inner man!
I've had some really good advice and support. Thank you
The film references are good - I find that easy to relate to though any reference to Connery makes me want to channel marko Ramius.
I like that granny watching on TV viewpoint. I think I need to be careful of drifting into smug and patronising which would be bad as that gets into my defence mode.
I've been out playing squash since so I'll guess we will see in the morning if there is a reaction
I like the granny thought, too. And for the record, don't confuse aggressiveness with threatening type behavior. You don't want to make her feel threatened, but you want to show that you will not be bullied and won't run from her b'tching fits. When you say something to her, don't do it in a timid way, but with a certain confidence that you expect it do be enforced.
I think I should have used the word "assertive". (I continue to learn from a wonderful poster by the name of Wonka.
)
I'm worried about coming across as threatening because she says she is afraid of me and my backlash.
I don't think I was threatening and I don't think any reasonable person would take what I said as backlash.
We have to be patient. We want the swift action of words, but we need the deep impact of actions. Sure, they don't trust us right now. Why would they after such a short period. My W is still very defensive with me, but I just let it go and consider every such encounter as another drop in the bucket, another opportunity for me to show that I've changed. And anyway, we need time to change for real! We're in a crisis right now and feel changed, but honestly I'm not sure I would be a changed man in 5 years if she were to come back tonight. 2 months would suddenly seem quite short. Still a lot of work to do on myself.
OK stupid question.
My W has gone out for a night out with her poisonous friend. She was saying polite goodbyes but I really didn't want to say have a good time. She said see you tomorrow and I just said OK. Im pretty sure it would have seemed sulky which isn't what I was aiming for the complete opposite in fact.
So the stupid question - should I have said have a good time or am I better to be distant.
I'm quadruple guessing myself - which definitely is confident.
OK stupid question.
My W has gone out for a night out with her poisonous friend. She was saying polite goodbyes but I really didn't want to say have a good time. She said see you tomorrow and I just said OK. Im pretty sure it would have seemed sulky which isn't what I was aiming for the complete opposite in fact.
So the stupid question - should I have said have a good time or am I better to be distant.
I'm quadruple guessing myself - which definitely is confident.
I assume the "..poisonous friend.." is the married woman who is having the affair you posted about earlier.
I would have said more than, "OK." Saying more could be polite or it could allow you to take a leadership/mentor role (which is not the role of a Nice Guy).
There are all kinds of things you could have said, as long as you didn't elaborate too much or get pulled into an argument. If you feel you would have gotten pulled into an arguement, then OK was probably about the best you could do.
Some possible other thing you could have said:
- Be responsible, remember you and she are married women
- Have a good time, but remember a life lived well is life lived responsibly
- I hope you enjoy getting a little space with your friend, just remember you both have families
After having read the above, I am not sure if they came out passive agressive or not. I wasn't trying for that. What I was trying for was something that established you as the moral leader of your family providing her with advice.
Good luck to you. Really focus on your GAL and improving yourself.
Yes the poisonous friend is the one having an affair with a married man. She has a view that 'all husbands are terrible and there is one person who fate meant you to be with and when you find them you just know'
I probably should have just gone with 'have a good time with Lxxx'.
Still too late now - just more ammunition to her opinion that I'm sulky, which is something I'm trying to change.
Basically the entirety of my conversation about anything other than the kids was either. OK, thankyou or no problem.
I should say my W was much more friendly tonight. Like a workplace.
Well a normal workplace.
OK stupid question.
My W has gone out for a night out with her poisonous friend. She was saying polite goodbyes but I really didn't want to say have a good time. She said see you tomorrow and I just said OK. Im pretty sure it would have seemed sulky which isn't what I was aiming for the complete opposite in fact.
So the stupid question - should I have said have a good time or am I better to be distant.
I'm quadruple guessing myself - which definitely is confident.
I assume the "..poisonous friend.." is the married woman who is having the affair you posted about earlier.
I would have said more than, "OK." Saying more could be polite or it could allow you to take a leadership/mentor role (which is not the role of a Nice Guy).
There are all kinds of things you could have said, as long as you didn't elaborate too much or get pulled into an argument. If you feel you would have gotten pulled into an arguement, then OK was probably about the best you could do.
Some possible other thing you could have said:
- Be responsible, remember you and she are married women
- Have a good time, but remember a life lived well is life lived responsibly
- I hope you enjoy getting a little space with your friend, just remember you both have families
After having read the above, I am not sure if they came out passive agressive or not. I wasn't trying for that. What I was trying for was something that established you as the moral leader of your family providing her with advice.
Good luck to you. Really focus on your GAL and improving yourself.
I struggle with this constantly myself. My WAW goes out almost every weekend with her single friend. I tell myself to. Just say bye and nothing else, but then my anxiety or emotion stirs and i say things like, have fun, be safe, be careful, and ill miss, and i love you. The latter being rare.
I'm worried about coming across as threatening because she says she is afraid of me and my backlash.
I don't think I was threatening and I don't think any reasonable person would take what I said as backlash.
Some wayward W's say stuff like that, as though they fear the H will brutally unleash something terrible on them. It is a bullying technique. From what you have described about the M history, she has no reason to think such things. You said she and friend were like another Thelma & Louise, so what one doesn't dream up, the other one will. Anything to use to their own advantage. You cannot afford to let it paralyze you b/c that is exactly what she wants!
I probably should have just gone with 'have a good time with Lxxx'.
I don't agree. She left you home keeping the kids, right? Were they in bed when she left? If not, then I would have been giving them a blast, making them squeal with so much fun. All of you would hardly take time to notice she was going out. When she said good-bye, just throw your hand up and say, "Ok, later." Then immediately return to playing with the kids.
If the kids were already in bed asleep, then you could make it your business to be on the phone as she started leaving. Again, just throw up your hand and act "who cares!" and as though you have something more interesting going on.
The point is not to give her going out importance. You don't care, and you aren't going to be the wimp who always wishes her a good time......b/c you don't approve of what she's doing! By all means, be involved in something fun or interesting when she leaves. Don't be doing housework or anything like of that sort. You are not the maid & babysitter she leaves behind.
This all may sound nuts to you, but it is the way of her mindset and attitude that will not respond like you would normally think. She has lost her moral compass and kicked her values aside. She won't appreciate the dutiful dad who stays behind and washing the dishes while she goes to play. B/c she is no longer the devoted wife & mother and she's different now. She'll come closer to thinking she's playing you for a fool if she sees you acting all sad or lonely or doing the chores when she leaves. But she can't feel that way if you are enjoying yourself and hardly notice she's leaving. See the difference?
So, have you made plans to go out tomorrow night and leave her keeping the kids? Don't ask her if she has plans. In the morning, you can tell her you are going out in the evening. She will ask where, what, when and who with. Don't give her answers. Just tell her she has your number if anything comes up with the kids. Then look blazing hot when you go out! Hey, you may go to the library to read, but that's nobody's business but your own. You may drive around or go looking around the mall. But you will be going "out".
Come Sunday morning, you're whistling and in a good mood, b/c you do not give her the power to determine that for you.
So to explain the crazy
She goes out for the night and my fear is she is sleeping with OM (she has said she just wants something meaningless and was what she was like in her early 20s). She may well just be going for a night as I have many times since BD.
I believe that in her mind we are no longer married so this doesn't matter. I know I can do nothing to control this and that I need to get to a place where im not trying to. an open marriage is a massive no for me so this hurts but its not like I can threaten to leave as she already left - its then a painful reminder of where I am.
So as she goes to leave she is friendly and says goodbye see you tomorrow.
My NG wants to say 'have fun'
My esteem wants to say nothing as I don't want to give the idea that I'm OK with this
I want to state an irrelevant boundary
A confident person would assume that she us just going out and say 'have fun, see you tomorrow'
But I don't want to come across as a NG so I want to say nothing.
In the end all I manage to say is 'ok' managing to look impolite sulky and insecure all at once.
Think I can chalk that as a fail
No, not a fail. Just not as much as a win as you wanted. Because you didn't say "have fun." Give yourself permission to be imperfect.
Thanks Sandi - cross posted.
What you say makes sense. Though I then had to text her to ask what happened to D3s toothbrush (no response)
I was trying to calm the kids down as it was only about 10 minutes before bedtime. So I was watching them but didn't want to get them excited. I could have been much more nochalent though.
We take it in turns for whole weekends so I'm in tonight and tomorrow. Having said that while she is out tomorrow I'm making Christmas cake with the kids (important family tradition) and then taking them to the fireworks in the evening - I haven't been allowed to do this in previous years because my wife was too anxious about the safety.
Every weekend I don't have the kids I have plans. London next weekend, Paris two weeks after that. She will definitely notice when I take my tux and my passport to go away for what would have been our anniversary.
I was trying to calm the kids down as it was only about 10 minutes before bedtime.
That was pretty lousy timing on the mother's leaving! But it figures. In a case like that, maybe tell them you have a special bedtime story to tell.
I know the toothbrush seemed a legit reason to text her, but it would be better to let D3 miss one time of brushing rather than text W. To her, it looks like you are finding a pitiful reason to contact her. She showed her feelings of its importance by not responding. If it's not urgent, don't contact her, period.
Every weekend I don't have the kids I have plans. London next weekend, Paris two weeks after that.
Sweet!
The win I want is just unrealistic.
Does anyone else find themselves wondering 'what the hell happened to me? Where did my spine go? And how did I not see that I was becoming this?'
The advantages of Europe. Lots of amazing cities all within a few hours.
Paris is going to be epic. I can't wait.
Jim,
I am so jealous of your travel plans!
I'm typing on my phone, so bear with me...
Listen to what Sandi has said above ^^^^.
She is right on.
No texting W with piddley stuff. You're a take-charge guy, you handle this stuff without her. Toothbrushes are not critical.
As for what to say/not say. I know this is hard.
You've got to shift your focus.
So--as Sandi said, you're busy being happy dad with your kids. They are delighted and you're all having fun as she goes off to do whatever.
Believe me, if you don't seem to care and she leaves with the mental image of her family, happy WITHOUT HER, that will sting a bit.
But don't expect her to ever admit it.
"Have a good time" is NOT something you should say.
It is NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH YOUR VALUES, and that is your yardstick here.
Don't worry about coming off "sulky". You're not going to project a sullen attitude if you are focused on loving your children and what great things you have planned for your evening with them WHICH YOUR WIFE WILL BE MISSING.
You can say "Well, the little ones and I are going to roast marshmallows and watch a movie, just let me know you're safe".
You can express concern for her safety as a strong man. That's a way of acknowledging her departure without condoning her actions.
And it's true. You want her to be safe and protected. That's what we women want most from our men; to know that they will protect us and keep us safe.
That would be in keeping with your core beliefs.
As for the rest, let her see what she is giving up; a great father and a stalwart partner.
You can do this.
You seem eager to learn and I get the sense that you are going to take what you're learning here and run with it.
Maybe that's why I've sort of "adopted" you.
Your attitude is good. You're open to change and you're willing to do what it takes.
Keep it up.
----(G)GGG
Jim, I agree with sandi -- be having a blast with the kids when she's about to leave, and just say "bye." Don't make it into anything more -- and be sure to look preoccupied with having fun in the meantime. Your travel plans sound wonderful!
I want to take it a bit further. From my perspective, I adore my kids and their well-being is primary for me. Do you know how far it would go for me if my H had toothbrushes & toothpaste, pajamas, books, and art supplies at his place? How much my kids *hate* packing to visit him? For me, there would be nothing sexier or more appealing than for him to step up and be prepared to PARENT and not just "keep" them. Wowsers, I would sit up and respect my H for that (and to keep from being confusing, would also feel twinges of loss... But I want what's best for the kids, so respect and appreciation would win.) texting me to ask about the stuff *I* "forgot" is a slam and a turn off. Step up and take charge.
I join in envy of your travel plans... A tux?? Do tell!!
Seriously jim, I'm getting dressed every day I leave work after an early shift.
Nice dress heels etc. I do my grocery shopping dressed up, work girls are convinced I'm meeting some one in secret. Now a few know that's bull dust, but the others I just say meh, going out with friends. Or heading off "out " out being any where but here!
I don't live with mine, but you can bet he knows. You can bet he hears stuff. When his mate comes In to work and try's to act casual while hanging round a few feet from where your working.
Look like your living it up, and sometimes even be living it up!
Hell s16 thinks I'm seeing a Richard cranium called Chris. My friends hubby who he hasn't met!
Thanks all. I'm really trying to learn as I don't like what happened to me and how I acted. I'd not had similar issues previous because I kept stuff suppressed now I'm trying to make sure I don't have issues because they aren't issues. Besides I can't see the down side to being more confident, more assertive and generally a better father, husband and friend.
I absolutely take the point about the toothbrush being petty. As we are in the same house still it was a case of this was here this morning so where is it? But I definitely see what you are saying so no more of that - just get on with it.
I'm trying to have plans every night I don't have the kids (except sunday because i have to prep for work) and only twice this has meant just going out with a book. I looked great though.
Equally I'm doing my best to have plans with the kids even if its nothing more than building a den a reading stories. Though today is going to be awesome. My little girl is properly excited.
We have a champagne dinner and a show booked for Paris and the place has a black tie dress code. I rock a tux - i have youthful clean cut looks which means a sharp well fitting suit really does the job. I've got a few other nights out planned which are going to mean suiting up.
I keep worrying that I'm not working on the emotional connection I lost with my W, the making her feel safe and cared for (the being there for her) but I guess what you're trying to tell me is that doesn't matter a hill of magic beans unless I've rebuilt her attraction and respect for me. So look good, be confident, passionate and interesting, and show that I'm the kind of person who will lead and protect his family. Overall someone who really has it together.
That might be a long journey in her perception but its going to be good for me.
So some preemptive advice would be good if that's possible. I'm taking my kids to a fireworks display tonight and my W will be back from her night out by then (really trying not to think about what she was doing)
Anyway if she says she wants to come with I'm trying to think how to handle it. I wouldn't want her to miss this family time, it would make it easier for me logistically and the kids would love her to come with.
BUT its not right that she can sleep around and then still expect family time - she traded one for the other when she chose divorce. So just trying to plan my response.
I'm thinking of 'I'm going to take them on my own thank you' and leave it at that. Do I need to say anymore than that?
Dress nice and don't forget the Cologne!
Chat to lots of people make sure you make some new friends.
So I'm sat at my D's football lesson and I seem to have got myself into a bit of a feeling sorry for myself funk. I guess I realise the distance between me and my W and that we've both been unhappy for years.
After her dads death (and my unreasonable behaviour on that day) she closed herself of to me. And even though we had another child I don't think she ever trusted me emotionally again.
She is now opening up because she has been so lonely for so long but its to anyone who isn't me. That makes me sad.
There's something Sandi said which has lodged in my head about why would she fear a backlash (I haven't worked out quoting on my phone yet). And I've been thinking about that for a while.
Yes she got a grump/sulk from me or a reactive in the moment bit of sarcasm which could be cutting and almost spiteful but I'm still not sure about this waiting for a backlash idea. Best guess is that sometimes my sulk would fester until by bedtime I would be in a right strop and ready to argue over the slightest thing. But even then it was more of a 'why do you keep shutting me out' 'why aren't I good enough for you' strop (which in hindsight are questions that answer themselves)
Her fear of a backlash seems genuine and her guard is always up for it. She almost looks for it. And sonetimes sees it where there isnt one. I do wonder how much is a reflection of her unclear but not happy relationship with her dad and that she has a history of abusive relationships (physically, emotionally and financially). Sorry just thinking out loud.
Anyways feeling sad about how lonely with both been for 3 years and how neither of us were grown up enough to find a way through.
Also I'm jealous of what others are getting from her now. As well as incredibly pessimistic for the chances of reconciliation.
I do stand by the changes I want to make because they are more about me than my R.
Please excuse my funk. I'm sure when I'm busier I'll snap out of it
STill in my funk.
I realise (again) that my wife was desperate for my love and I withheld it because I felt like she was neglecting me (covert contracts). She is still desperate for love but has given up on me and started looking elsewhere, anywhere else. I would gladly love her as she wants but I was too stupid and stubborn to do what I needed to (too busy being 'nice') and now she doesn't want my love instead she resents me because of the impact that this has on our kids, the wasted years, and the difficulties it creates for her. I created my own misery and kept my W in hers.
Feeling Rubbish about it all really and want more than anything to build a life with my W knowing what I now know and making the changes to me that I need to make. And to slap the me of the last few years silly.
Do something useful with this sadness. Don't just sit around in a funk -- make a list of ways you can change today. You say above that you have a history of sulking and working yourself up. Sitting in a funk is more of the same. If you have to do jumping jacks, meditate, or write "I will be my best self" 50 times, find a way to redirect your thoughts to a more positive place. Playing with my kids always puts me in a happy place. But no more of the same.
We all have regrets about how we conducted ourselves pre-BD. We can't change that. But we know better now so we can do better going forward. Make this painful experience useful.
Something I like to do to spend time with my kids while they're coloring... I got an adult coloring book, either of mandalas or something very detailed (you can also print them one at a time free off the internet) and colored alongside the kids. At first you feel a little silly but eventually you get absorbed in the detail and in chatting and joking with the little ones, and your spirits lift without even noticing.
Feel better.
Just made the Christmas cake with the kids so feeling a bit better.
Colouring still mainly consists of my little boy trying to eat the crayons
Do something useful with this sadness.
I love it, Maybell. I find that every mood can be made productive. Feeling down can bring you back to reading a chapter in DR or the 37 rules. Feeling good can make you GAL very well. Seek what you're driven to do in every mood.
We all have regrets about how we conducted ourselves pre-BD. We can't change that. But we know better now so we can do better going forward. Make this painful experience useful.
I don't know why, but it finally resonates with me after reading it so many times around here.
Hang in there, Jim0987. You're not alone and it will get better. Paris sounds fantastic.
So had a good day with the kids. W got back from her night out earlier than expected and was chatty before shutting the conversation down. I listened and engaged in the conversation but think I did a good job of not prying or seeming to interested.
only had one moment which wasn't great, she went clubbing loads before we got together and has been several times since BD but in 6 years of our R we've never been together - something that has always bothered me but I never mentioned to her. Anyway I had a bit of a sigh (not a huff) and when asked just said I'd been reminded of something. Left it at that.
A few times during the afternoon I was dealing with D3 (not listening etc.) W tried to jump in to help but I looked at her and said quite firmly 'I've got this' then went back to talking to D3.
I took the kids to their first ever fireworks display this evening. They loved it but dang its harder by yourself. I really missed W at that moment as its something we should do as a family. She was really upbeat when I got back - I would have thought she would also really feel like she missed out but didn't seem to or wasn't going to show it.
So now I'm sat reading (daring greatly) and she is downstairs watching TV and I imagine that is the end of today's interaction between us.
I do miss her, but if she's not attracted to me and won't lower her defences what can I do...
This is going to take time. As she starts to see the new you, she is going to develop old feelings again. That is going to confuse her. Anytime a woman has more than one man in her head.....it is major confusion with her emotions.
I think you are making positive steps. And btw, whenever you and kids are doing something fun and she wants to join......by all means let her. Be fun and show her your charming personality. Just be prepared for things to shift at any given moment. Some guys think b/c the family had a great night together that it will be the beginning
of something. Don't go there. It's a setup for disappointment. Just take the few moments as they come and be ready for her to bounce back into her WW mode.
So this morning I still have my feeling hopeless about saving my M on.
Its a good news bad news thing that has added to it. After I asserted myself about getting home she was expecting me to be deliberately late back as petty control. I wasn't so she was pleasantly surprised but its sad that she thinks that of me. That has never been me as far as I recognise.
Strangely when the kids are around its not really any different. My W hasn't engaged with me for years and always pulled away if I tried to hug her and I certainly wasn't allowed to kiss her because she 'couldn't see the kids'
I need to get in a more positive mindset. Its difficult to be fun when my W won't engage but at least I can make the kids giggle.
Right D and I are going to make lunch. Spanish sausage and potato bake.
she was pleasantly surprised
That's what we live for on this forum. It's a baby step. You're making progress. Slow, as always, but a step in the right direction nonetheless. Try to be happy about it.
I need to get in a more positive mindset.
Yes you do. Because that's the best way to win back your wife. It's a big challenge for you than some others because you live with her. You can't let your guard down. Also, pessimis is your ennemy. It takes away your energy, it brings you down.
Its difficult to be fun when my W won't engage but at least I can make the kids giggle.
You're not trying to engage her anyway. You're trying to build a life without her that's fun, worthy and attractive. In fact, I'll challenge you to have a good moment today where you deliberately hide from her (while she's at home). Tickle your D in a place your w can't hear you, make a fun phone call, read a little, etc. Don't put on a show for her.
Hang in there. We're there with you.
Jim, I know you are struggling and feel hopeless. But I believe this M can be saved. You are your own worst enemy at the moment, b/c all your focus is on her. You give her the power to control your mood at any given time. You feel you can't be fun b/c she won't participate. You get down b/c she has negative opinions about you. Sweetie you have to stop it. Nobody can control you but Jim! It entirely up to you how you will feel.
You have not detached emotionally from her. Detachment is to help you become self-sufficient or emotionally independent of an attachment to her. In other words, the R with her does not define you as a man.
If I have given this copy already, I apologize. But in case you haven't seen it, please study it and really see yourself in it.
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Thanks mozza and Sandi. No matter how many times im told to detach I still need to be reminded fairly regularly.
Im doing much better, had a lot of fun with kids over lunch. Also had a conversation which went OK I think.
W: is there any lunch for me?
M: of course, if you'd like
W: I didn't know if that would be OK?
M: why wouldn't it?
W: I thought you might want me to sort my own
M: its up to you there's plenty if you want some
W: well I didn't want to presume
M: its fine if you want some. I dont mind either way. I've never been 'that' person
W: I know. I didn't mean to suggest you were.
I'll work on detachment. It is harder to be living together but I see the positive that she can't not see me be different. And I've always entertained the kids - its so easy to make my LB squeal with excitement.
Thank you for helping me with this. I'm keen to learn.
How does one establish boundaries in detachment and know if it's reasonable? Jim are your boundaries reasonable, too little or just not established?
jim can you say what you do to detach, it would be useful to know how a fellow struggler copes.
Vanilla
Btw the squealing with excitement bit sounds wonderful
Boundaries are new ground for me so its a work in progress, But the ones I'm most comfortable with at the moment are
- I won't let my W speak to me with contempt and just let it slide
- I will parent my way which means taking them where I think is appropriate and telling people to not interfere when what I'm doing is fine. (W wants to jump in at the slightest hint of naughty by my kids - they are tiny, it happens)
- my movements will be decided by what I'm comfortable with rather than what I've been guilted into
Detachment is mainly about my GAL but also taking a bigger picture as to whether things actually matter. I don't do well on
this
My scorecard
Good: GAL, parenting, willingness to learn, IC, increasing emotional depth, vulnerability, analysing and learning, more self confidence, giving W space
Bad: detaching, boundaries, optimism about M, not snooping, PMA, boundaries, Detaching. (Deliberate repeats)
Thanks Jim love the deliberate double counting
I am a bit confused by this though
Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
I want in to bailing out so this is contrary to my thinking.
What does contempt mean to you and how have you identified that this is over your boundary? I prefer your view contempt rather than mine which is to perceive abuse. Is this mind Reading?
Thanks
Vanilla
Difficult to describe exactly but for me it is along the lines of:
- when my opinion is considered to have less worth than others. I can be wrong thats fine its when a value judgement is made. Worse is when its suggested I have no right to an opinion.
- when I am made to feel second class for something that should be equal
- when I am sneered at or threatened for standing my ground.
I've allowed too much of this then sulked about it or resented it. From now on I need to to either assert my position or let it go completely
Good job on conversation with W.
Yes, great job.
A couple of things to think about (I'm being nit-picky here because you seem to want the input, so I apologize if I'm overloading you with information.)
Beware of using rhetorical questions or questions in general that are of a personal/emotional/relationship nature.
"Why wouldn't it?" might just open a can of worms. It sounds a bit like an opening to a R discussion or provoking some "thoughts" for your W. Be careful with that. It can seem manipulative to her.
Best to say "I made some lunch, please go ahead and help yourself."
No need to say that you're "not 'that' guy" either. It comes across a wee bit as "poking" her with reminders of how you are a good guy and "tell me why you think it would be weird..." kind of stuff.
Just be careful. It didn't blow up on you but it could have gotten weird. Don't put yourself in a position to find yourself on the defensive. Asking questions and making statements about your character, no matter how trivial, can all have the same effect. And that is to create pressure and seem like pursuit.
Best to phrase everything as if you have decisively made up your mind and just be clear about it. Keep the talking (about her, you, the R) to zero if you can.
Practical questions about the children that must be addressed is all you want to engage in right now.
You're doing great. Keep it up.
As for the boundaries, some of the above statements are about how you don't want to be treated, but not as much about how you will handle it.
Expect her to be disrespectful, to discount your opinions, to threaten, and escalate. Mostly these are just words, and words from her are pretty much meaningless.
If you react, it shows that she can push your buttons and get you worked up to where you do or say something she can point to and say "See! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about." Don't feed the beast.
You should not engage with this stuff. That's not "backing down" or condoning it. It's just that every little thing isn't worth going to the mat over.
Right now it's like you're her father figure and you're being a pain in her butt. In her mind, you're judging her and keeping her from her fun. But meanwhile, you're supposed to love her unconditionally.
Best to be prepared that she will act like a hormonal teenager and try to pick your battles. If she outright disrespects you, you can stop, look her right in the eyes, hold your hand up as in "stop" and say: (firmly, but not aggressively, keep your body language strong but calm) "I will not be spoken to in that manner." and walk away.
If she follows, leave the house, take a walk, whatever you need to do. Of course this is harder when you have young children but you should have a plan in case you find yourself in this predicament.
---(G)GGG
Nit picky is fine with me. People keep saying small actions carry far more weight than big words. Thank you for 'adopting' me
She was starting to push my buttons in that conversation because if the way she was heavily implying that I would deliberately exclude her by being petty and selfish. Maybe i was reading too much into it but thats how it felt. I kept it as friendly as I could in a 'its really not a problem' tone
Im trying to find that balance between letting disrespectful comments/behaviour slide (not dignifying it with a response) and firmly saying its not acceptable. I've decided that enforcement will be I leave. I'm 99% confident she wouldn't escalate in front of the kids.
Leads me to a question. As every other night since BD, as soon as the kids were in bed she went to her room to text PF (I need a better nickname) and left me to do all the tidying. Now I'm torn, I haven't said anything and just get on with it. This feels right from a being detached perspective but it also feels like I'm being to 'nice' about it. Views on whether I should do anything or just carry on. I should say this isn't a 180 I've always done my share of the tidying.
Good day today for me though.
Jim,
That's how the convo sounded to me, too. Like she was fishing.
"I didn't know if you'd allow me to eat any of this food, that you hate me so much you won't share..." blah blah blah.
Trying to get you to say/do something, whatever that might be.
Are you saying now that she's dumping the tidying up on you so she can go text her "friend"?
That's not right. If there were no prior issues in your M where she complained about you not pulling your weight with the housework, then I wouldn't pick up her slack.
Maybe just do half...
I'd focus on making great meals and enjoying your time with the children. As for the cleaning up, maybe that can wait until later because you've got other FUN plans!
Maybe she'll surprise you and do it. Maybe not.
Of course, you don't want to let the place fall apart because a good dad would make sure that everything is safe and clean. But that doesn't mean it has to be done RIGHT THEN, know what I mean?
Maybe leave things overnight and if she says anything, say: "Well I promised I'd read the kids that special bedtime story and we were having so much fun I forgot all about the dishes. But they can wait until tomorrow...." and end the conversation.
If she doesn't like it, SHE can do the tidying up.
(This is only because she's off texting this person, not because she's busy working in other ways. That would be totally different.)
But you don't want to taken advantage of.
If it continues, you can say "I'm happy to cook if you're willing to clean!" and come up with a new recipe, let the kiddos help, and see if she'll pitch in too.
(No pressure, just friendly. If she declines, she'll be missing out on great family memories. Her loss!)
----(G)GGG
Its strange... But then what isn't these days.
So boring detail. Pre BD we always tidied up as soon as the kids were in bed. Generally I'd do the washing up and put the toys away. W would clean the kitchen and sort the laundry. She complained that I didn't do the dishwasher or the laundry or sweep the floor enough - but its not like I wasn't tidying and she hates doing the lounge. Since BD, if I'm home she does pretty much nothing to tidy up.
If I just leave it - it will been seen as me being passive aggressive, if I say something then it's my vindictive backlash and if I ignore it then I guess I'm being weak.
And yes its just on her phone, its all she does most evenings. Stays in her room on her phone - I assume to PF.
Well, do YOU see it as "passive-aggressive"? If so--why?
Passive aggressive means you are angry with her and don't want to come out and say so, so you undermine her in some way.
That's not what this is.
This is HER choosing not to do HER PART of the chores that are needed for the family.
Is it reasonable to suspect that now, since she doesn't feel like it, that you should pick up her end so she can disappear into her room and spend time on the phone like a teenager?
I think not.
This is not a hill you want to die on--so don't make a big deal out of it. But if I were in your shoes I'd find a way of drawing that boundary.
If she's not wiling to do her part, then either it doesn't get done until she does it, or you decide you're willing to do it yourself.
You don't need to mention it or rub it in. ACTIONS!
But you shouldn't feel guilty for not enabling her, not at all.
Right now it sounds like she's got it pretty good and she's got you right where she wants you.
Time to brainstorm some ideas.
Sorry, but this ticks me off. You are being too nice and I hate seeing people being taken advantage of like this.
What would you recommend to a male friend in the same boat?
Like I said, if she doesn't like it--that's ON HER. It's not your job to make sure she thinks/feels the right thing about your actions.
You do what's best for YOU, and if that means things aren't picture perfect every minute, so be it.
You sound too worried about what she might think and what conclusions she might draw if you don't do this or that.
How about you go into YOUR room and disappear for a while, texting away on your phone? OK, maybe that might be a little passive-aggressive, but you get the idea.
You do what needs to be done ON YOUR TERMS. She is not helping. Therefore she does not get to dictate the quality/quantity of work.
Make sense?
And yes its just on her phone, its all she does most evenings. Stays in her room on her phone - I assume to PF.
Looks like the fog. My W was probably in the same situation, since she was always on her phone in the last few days she stayed home. I just confirmed the OM two days ago. What can we do? Nothing, we're told. Either we wallow in our suffering or we GAL. Sigh. Good luck, you're not alone.
My plans tonight consist of ironing, getting sorted for work and watching the USGP (hello Texas).
So swimming and cooking lunch with my D snapped me out of my funk and I've been in a good mode all day. Lots of playing, colouring, singing , dancing and silliness. Made my LB laugh so much I had to change his nappy.
W was around most of the day and mostly just watched. Seemed distant and fed up but actually its been a lot like that for as long as I can remember (certainly since LB was born). She did make nice comments about my cooking and even reminisced about some of the food I've cooked in the past. I also made her laugh a few times.
She had a bit of a strop about not being able to find her CDs since we moved. Complained she's wanted them for ages but its the first time she's mentioned it. Then she had a complaint about how her 'all her stuff is just shoved in the garage'. I simply said its mostly books in the garage and carried on playing with kids. I don't know where that all came from but she got grumpy about it.
Anyway I had a nice day with the kids and they had a lot of fun.
If I post too much or with too much detail let me know.
For what it's worth, when it became clear that H wasn't going to pull his weight, I told him he could do his own laundry and starting being less shy about asking him to take kids to Scouts, etc. generally stopped making his life easy.
Also, I'm not embarrassed enough to admit... towards the end he went three weeks without putting his clean laundry away. everything he wore was stacked all around the dresser. So I had a tantrum and emptied everything out of his dresser into a heap in front of it, and then threw all the clean clothes on top. He moved out a couple of weeks later... but for the rest of those couple of weeks he put his clean laundry away.
I had forgotten I did that... it was really cathartic. But not probably one of my more effective actions. I was feeling pretty powerless at that point though, so it made me feel better even if it didn't help the situation.
Don't do as I did.
Oh, and one boundary that many have drawn with their wayward spouses (particularly WIVES) is that THERE IS TO BE NO TEXTING/CALLING THEIR AFFAIR PARTNER UNDER THE FAMILY ROOF.
It is completely disrespectful. Believe me, she KNOWS THIS.
I'll defer to the vets here on how to enforce this boundary.
I can tell you that if the situation was reversed, I wouldn't think much of my husband if he let me get away with not helping out because I was texting the man I was sleeping with.
I would laugh and think "Chump. That's why I'm leaving you."
That may sound harsh but it's the truth.
Putting your foot down does not mean you have to be angry or aggressive. You can calmly state your position and then, a consequence that you can enforce.
Maybe you no longer pay her phone bill, maybe.... well, that's for you to decide.
There is a very clear line between being a responsible dad/homeowner/adult and being used and abused for fear of making W "more angry/disappointed".
You will never go wrong with being calmly strong and assertive, compassionate (as to a neighbor) and willing to stand on your own two feet and move forward.
It's hard, but you have to base your actions on WHAT IS RIGHT, and not on how it might affect your W.
Put yourself and your children first. Your M and wife COME SECOND.
This is what SHE wanted, remember?
Then she gets what she asked for.
Don't be a jerk about it. Be very nice. But she is not your wife right now in her mind so you should stop thinking of yourself as her husband. She doesn't, except to lean on you when she needs you.
She needs to know that you are not available to her in that way as long as she is doing things to undermine your M.
I know it's hard, but it's one of the keys to detachment.
She can't have it both ways.
---(G)GGG
Update in the middle.
If I was advising a mate?...
Id probably say that if its annoying you then you need to say something. But that's assuming they have a loving relationship. If it were a room mate then I'm less sure as there would be more seperation.
She came down to get food just as I finished and asked 'you alright?' I said 'I'm OK, just going to get some dinner'.
Anything beyond is me mind reading.
I mean a mate who is in exactly your situation.
All the roles are the same, just different actors.
What would you tell HIM?
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She keeps trying to "take your temperature" because she's not sure why you're not acting as she anticipated.
And yes, no mind-reading allowed.
So keep it short and sweet, not too much information, nothing about how you're "feeling", even if she asks. If you must, just say: 'This is a difficult time for all of us, but I will be fine." Because that's the truth.
If she were really worried about your feelings, she wouldn't be doing what she's doing.
What she likely wants to know is "Are you mad at ME?" and probably worries how that will play out, what you might do that would affect HER.
Because make no mistake. This is all about HER.
She doesn't get to take a reading on your emotional status anytime she wants clarification.
Let her know you're fine, just moving forward. That shows you "respect her decision". (Even though you don't, but you won't win by trying to convince her otherwise.)
Hang in there.
She pays her own phone bill so no influence there.
I probably need to update my signature. So she left me for OM. They had a one night thing and then he backed right off. They had another late night a couple of weeks later. Apparently he does want anything more and feels sorry for her. She is actively pursuing him and has drunk texted him a few times.
She is now just looking for 'something meaningless' and to 'feel a real man'. She and PF went out Friday night looking for a casual one night stands and judging by the photos on FB was successful.
I know a lot of this because I snooped (I know) but today her phone WS right there for about an hour where I could have snooped and I decided I didn't want to because that's not helping me be better (and its mostly unpleasant to read). Not a big victory as I shouldn't have snooped previously but better.
I think I said before she seems to be waiting for some kind of massive vindictive backlash from me.
The only time thats been me is after she met her ex and lied about it. And even then it was more about me feeling worthless (though not how she interpreted it) then doing some serious withholding. Thinking about it she felt that I ripped her self esteem apart for that and this is way worse - I guess she is expecting that x10 or maybe that's mindreading too much
Then let her wait!
You're not going to unleash a backlash on her.
You are going to stay calm, cool, and continue DBing.
Her feelings and worries are HER PROBLEM. Not yours.
You can't control how she feels.
Remember? You're not a pretzel.
IF she was so worried, she'd be acting differently.
So you might be projecting a wee bit. Or listening to her justifications which are essentially designed to have you take all the blame.
Don't worry about what she thinks/feels. That's her job.
And if she actually left to pursue OM, then your stance has got to firm up a bit more. You are not her daddy and she is making her own choices.
Bad ones, for sure. But you can't control this.
Your best shot is to follow the advice you get here.
Oh--and you can't undo history. Her previous relationships, with you or others, are not your concern.
ALL YOU CAN DO is to be the better man, the stand-up man, the best option.
Let her see this and don't give her anything to use against you.
Keep on with your GAL and being a great dad, and be kind to her. But not her doormat.
Don't rescue her from herself. Trust me, she will not thank you for it, and she definitely won't respect you for it either.
Time for her to learn what's really out there in the big, bad world.
But be kind, always. Come from a place of love---detached love.
You'll find that spot in your heart if you keep working on it.
A mate in exactly the same position I would tell to leave it because she has to do it all when hes away and she find out pretty quickly when she moves out. In the meantime all raising it is going to do is cause an argument because she isn't going to listen
Well, there you go.
You knew the answer already.
But do it nicely. And of course keep the house nice, it's a plus that you are willing to do those chores. To a point!
Definitely trying to follow the advice on here. Its helping me significantly regardless of whether it helps with my M.
The only backlash im planning on is some assertive boundaries
And no, you don't post too much. Post as much as you need. I follow your sitch closely. I'm impressed with a lot of what you manage to do. I know it's not easy. To have your wife looking for a one-night-stand and keep your calm? You have balls. To me, that's more impressive than flying off the handle, on automatic pilot. When you set your eyes on a goal, you can exert amazing self-control. That's something you might be learning about yourself right now, something to be proud of.