Hi guys and gals,
I find support here reading your posts. Here is my situation:
Our history M-18yrs, together 21, Me 41, Her 43, 3 great kids 15, 14, and 10. I have read DR, she does not search out information or help other than one of her close friends (girl). I do not know if the following was the friends advice.
No abuse, no adultery, no other people (I believe this although I cannot say 100% sure), and no drug or significant alcohol issues.
She stated (and continues to state) that she has slowly over the last years become emotionally detached from me and does not want to kiss or make love anymore. She wants a trial separation, but does not want to be the one to leave. I accepted that I have not been as attentive to her needs prior to this conversation (3 months ago) and should have picked up that this was happening years ago but didn't think we were that bad off (much better than my parents have modeled for me). I did a 180 for the last three months and have tried to show her the man that I am. I probably was doing too much and began to withdrawal, at which point she reached out to me and continues to. We hold each other nightly in our bed and it is comforting and confusing for me (and also for her).
She still talks of separation but acts like she enjoys me there, we seem to be close friends and in love at home (at night) but when we are out she will not show me affection and still does not want to be intimate.
She says that she is back and forth saying it will be OK, wanting the best for our kids and me but has not seen her feelings change over the last three months.
Please help, she and I are in so much pain. Our kids deserve us together. I have so much Love for her and them. I am following the recommendations in DR and am comforted by the community that you are a part of.
I guess that I have three questions:
1. Since it is I who knows what they want, I do not believe it is I that should move out. I told her I will support her decision financially and get her a appt across the street until she can resolve – Am I unrealistic with this?
2. When she tries to hold me at night should I refuse – stating that it is just too confusing to me?
3. When I pull away from her she states that “so you are turning the page on me” which I am not but it makes me reassure her. I can say that I am just working things out and am unsure – but this lack of affection and attention is part of the reason that I am in this mess. Thoughts???
Thanks, I have placed a lot of weight on what you may say. I wanted her to pursue this herself but she is not the best planner. I have had one session of online coaching and she will have a session tonight. I cannot stand to see her so sad but I am afraid that I will not be able to forgive her or myself if she proceeds with this path.
You said you want to help her because she is not the best planner. I think helping her move out is a mistake. Talk to your coach but separating is a huge step and it might possibly lead to more problems.
Do you think this is more of a MLC or strictly intimacy issues. Intimacy issues can turn into a MLC so it is great you are getting help. I wish I would have found this board sooner.
1) I would not move out and if she decides to move out I would not help her take that step by doing the work. That being said you don't need to stand in her way either. This is part of the detachment process Michelle keeps talking about.
2) Withholding affection might be part of the problem. She seems to want to connect but you are having trouble expressing how to get there. Don't deny affection if you know what you want. It may just make things worse.
3) see number 2 and the. The cycle starts all over again.
What is your goal? Is it small and measurable? Actions speak louder than words. Also lots of relationship talk is a turn off. I am really new here but this is what I am getting from the books.
Thanks Gwen,
She states that she slowly lost her connection from me over the years. It has been a long time since we were on the same page sexually, me being more needy and her less. It probibally started there for me which made me feel rejected and began to withhold from her. The intamacy issues probibally prompted the MLC and possibly a emotional connection with a OP for her (although she denies it and I don't think so).
I try not to talk of it and give her space but she looks sad and I want to hold her...and she begins the relationship (or lack of ) talk. Yes, I have goals that I have set.
I'm sorry you went through what you did, my kids are younger. How did they take the news? How do you prepare them?
My wife (near WAW) has had a session with a DB coach (Denise) last night.
1. Has anyone done this before?
My wife states she is "emotionally detatched" and has been for years (I assume much of the responcibility here-not all-but have changed what I need to in the last 3 months). She is not sexually attracted to me
. She may have a connection with a OM??? but denies and he may not know. She talks of seperation, switching off every week (sharing a appartment).
2. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out? Do you reccommend?
I have stated that I would support her in her desision to move out but refuse to switch as I know what I want and do not believe spending time apart is benifical.
3. Am I wong here?
I have tried done a 180 for the last 3 months, detatched GOL and show her support.
4. Is it a waiting game at his point?
Thanks, I appreciate your time.
from other thread
We are still in the same house yet, but she does not connect with me as a H. She stopped wearing her rings this week. States that it is gone, have not made love in a month. doing DB couseling with her which gives me hope but think all is lost. Detatching does not seem to work with her, holding and being a good person and H seems to...but I do not know. She cried in church yesterday and stated that she wants to tell the kids (they know something is up). I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out, but think I will be resentful if she does. I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.
Its hard when we love them so much, I accept some responcibility but ultimatly it is now her choice.
I hope you find peace.
Have you read the entire Divorce Remedy book?
Whose idea was it for her to have the DB coaching session? Does she know about this board?
Detatching does not seem to work with her,
Okay, Hrdtims, "detaching" is not for her. It is to help you. If you mean your detaching does not get a response from her, then you misunderstand the concept. Could you help me understand how you mean this statement?
I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out,
I personally do not agree with supporting her actions that you already believe you will resent. Do not tell her you will support her. If she wants to live without you, then she should do it without your money. Where will the kids stay? Will you have them 50% of the time? I would consult with a lawyer before telling her anything about financial support. Find out about your rights.
I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.
First of all, WAW's do not respond well to an ultimatum. Never ever use it as a bluff b/c she will call your hand on it. Then you better be prepared to back up your words!
Instead of ultimatums, learn about "boundaries" and how to establish them. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, but they are to protect yourself. You are the only one you can control.
You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?
From the outsider's view, it seems your W has felt the lack of an emotional connection with you for quite some time. This lack of connection caused her desire for sex to take a dive. When you felt her lack of desire for you, you felt rejected and turned cold on her. So things went from bad to worse. If you can learn how to make an emotional connection with her, I think she will warm up towards you.
If she has made an emotional connection with another man, then the stitch is automatically complicated. Why? B/c she has allowed a third party into the M (even if it's just emotionally). For a woman, that's a big deal. Remember, she needs to feel the connection emotionally before she wants it physically. If OM is fulfilling her emotional needs, it's a matter of time before it will lead to a physical connection.
So, what 180's have you done?
You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?
This I think is a very basic and common mistake males make as relationships change. I know is my case I did not know that how my W and I were interacting was not building and maintaining the amount of affection in our relationship. I did not know or understand the difference, especially when in the beginning of a relationship we (men) tend to naturally do things that build and keep affection alive.
No excuses now, but now most of us are not in a place to actively build on the affection. Right now it may seem as "too little too late" to your spouse; especially if she is a WAS.
During my first attempted reconciliation I made the mistake about this. My W and I cuddled and talked and had some wine. When it was done we progressed into having sex, but it did not seem natural to her. She told me she felt like a commodity and a prostitute. She felt like I cuddled her and listened so now it was time for my payment, sex.
Not at all how I wanted her to feel and I did not have some of the knowledge I do now about the subject. After this incident I specifically sought out information about the subject because I knew that it was primarily an issue created by me.
Here are two quotes from "His Needs, Her Needs" that helped clarify this concept for me.
"affection is the environment of the marriage; sex is the special event"
"In most cases, a woman needs to feel emotionally bonded with her husband before she has sex with him. Sex for her becomes a physical expression of that emotional bond. She achieves this feeling through the exchange of affection and undivided attention."
Have you read the entire Divorce Remedy book?
Whose idea was it for her to have the DB coaching session? Does she know about this board?
Detatching does not seem to work with her,
Okay, Hrdtims, "detaching" is not for her. It is to help you. If you mean your detaching does not get a response from her, then you misunderstand the concept. Could you help me understand how you mean this statement?
I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out,
I personally do not agree with supporting her actions that you already believe you will resent. Do not tell her you will support her. If she wants to live without you, then she should do it without your money. Where will the kids stay? Will you have them 50% of the time? I would consult with a lawyer before telling her anything about financial support. Find out about your rights.
I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.
First of all, WAW's do not respond well to an ultimatum. Never ever use it as a bluff b/c she will call your hand on it. Then you better be prepared to back up your words!
Instead of ultimatums, learn about "boundaries" and how to establish them. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, but they are to protect yourself. You are the only one you can control.
You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?
From the outsider's view, it seems your W has felt the lack of an emotional connection with you for quite some time. This lack of connection caused her desire for sex to take a dive. When you felt her lack of desire for you, you felt rejected and turned cold on her. So things went from bad to worse. If you can learn how to make an emotional connection with her, I think she will warm up towards you.
If she has made an emotional connection with another man, then the stitch is automatically complicated. Why? B/c she has allowed a third party into the M (even if it's just emotionally). For a woman, that's a big deal. Remember, she needs to feel the connection emotionally before she wants it physically. If OM is fulfilling her emotional needs, it's a matter of time before it will lead to a physical connection.
So, what 180's have you done?
Hrdtms,
all of this. ^^^^If your wife wants to leave the marriage, then you need to get some legal advice pronto and SHE needs to learn to put on her BGPs. You can't control her nor prevent her from running away from your family, but you
certainly don't need to finance the flight.
Starsky
I agree with you about connection and work to focus on building emotional connection with my MLC wife.
Our situation is she announced she no longer loves me. She is now in an emotional phone/text affair with an OM she met a month ago.
I discovered this affair a week ago on our phone bill.
I demanded her to stop. She said she would but then has not. She has also hidden her phone records from me.
She expects me to hound her about this everyday.
She expects me to be angry and depressed.
No doubt... part of me TRULY wants to rage and throw her from this house.
Even so, my goal is to save this marriage... so practicing detachment while also focusing on maintaining my swagger/attractiveness while trying to accept her as she is now is what I'm doing.
Accepting her seems to be the first part of recreating the attachment.
It has allowed me to sit and listen to her talk about anything she wants to talk about.
I relax and lean back while softly holding her gaze.
At first, she can't look in my eyes long and wrings her hands or crosses her arms in front of her chest while she talks.
Eventually, she relaxes, leans back, relaxes her face, and smiles.
It helps to repeat in your mind "I love you wife" while you gaze into her eyes.
Asking her questions, repeating what she says as questions, and asking "How do you feel about that?" keeps her talking.
She comes to me now, after all the terrible things she's said so far, to apologize, tell me how guilty and terrible she feels, talk about her day, or talk about current events.
I smile after she talks for a while and look for opportunities to make her laugh.
I also touch her gently on her forearm, shoulder, or knee as we talk (no grabbing).
I then innocently leave my arm, hand, or knee close enough for her to reach.
After a bit she starts to unconsciously touch me back while she talks.
Last night before bed (we still sleep together) I made her laugh. Right then I said, "Here, give me a hug" which she warmly did while calling me silly.
Then I said with a coy smile, "Let's hug before bed every night" which is my small goal for this week.
(I did push too far, though, and later kissed her somewhat sexually making her a little uncomfortable. She didn't leave the bed and kept talking so dodged a bullet there.)
If you're like me, you can't hide your pain and EXTREME EXTREME anger over this.
Let that go on too long, though, and, every time she looks into your eyes, she will see your pain and want to run away from her guilt.
So relax, focus on accepting her and being openly available while detaching so she can come to you, then sit and listen when she come and love her gently with your eyes, face, and the tips of your fingers.
Having fun with it makes you less angry.
I guess that's sensuality? If I'd only known sooner...
No excuses now, but now most of us are not in a place to actively build on the affection. Right now it may seem as "too little too late" to your spouse; especially if she is a WAS.
Maybe some guys get too focused on the fact there is no affection from the WAW. For an undetermined period of time, you have to step back and stop focusing on the lack of affection and turn your concentration to where it started.....and the only one you can do anything about. It's as if you have to start way back to square one. I mean go back to being the man you were before you met/dated your W. Maybe that man needs some improvements. While you are detached and focusing on finding & improving
yourself, forget about your payment. Stop watching her to see if she notices or will respond. You are giving "time" and "space" in the MR and you back away from her and her drama. Once you rediscover your self-confidence, masculinity, self-respect, inner strength, charm, polish up the personality & physical body, become more interesting and fun to be around, and anything else you need to tend to......then you are better prepared to face the W...later on. If she sees glimpses of the man she fell in love with once before....it just might stir her curiosity enough and/or appeal to something still buried inside her that will give opportunity for you to ever-so-slowly began developing an emotional connection again. Did you know that the purpose of dating was really designed for the two souls to get to know each other outside of having physical sex together. (Not to get laid, as some may think.)
"In most cases, a woman needs to feel emotionally bonded with her husband before she has sex with him. Sex for her becomes a physical expression of that emotional bond. She achieves this feeling through the exchange of affection and undivided attention."
And during the courtship/dating stage, that is what is happening. They both feed each other certain emotional needs. He may not need it as much as she does. He may be building her up or preparing her to want him physically. After marriage, the law of nature (so to speak) does not change in that sense. Women still need to be emotionally built up and feel that connection with the man. When the man has the attitude that it is no longer necessary b/c they are now married, he stops giving her that emotional food he gave during the courtship. He won the girl, so now she should be ready to hop in bed without any work emotionally from him. But then her love tank runs dry and she doesn't want sex. They each stop giving the other one what is needed. So, the other problems follow.
I'm not blaming men. If they don't know, they don't know. And likewise for women. And in today's society, I am surprised any relationships succeed b/c couples are misled and misinformed. They get into the physical sex way too soon and we are reading about more couples where the female's sexual desire starts declining before they even make it to the wedding chapel. So, there is a lot to be said about the pros of emotional courtship.
If the man is smart, he will continue to court his W all down through their M years together.
She says that she is back and forth saying it will be OK, wanting the best for our kids and me but has not seen her feelings change over the last three months.
Have you read The Five Love Languages by Gary D Chapman? It is often recommended on this board and I'm halfway through it. (It's likely where sandi2 took the concept of the "love tank" above) I've already learned a lot about how I can show love in ways that my partner will understand. The premise of the books is that people speak different languages and that you need to speak your spouse's so that she can hear you. By the sound of your sitch, it might make a difference.
Sandi, Mozza, gofo, and Starsky
Thanks guys,
I have read the DR book (and reread)I have not read the love languages but have researched it. We both wanted counseling, I chose DB and Denise. She does not know about these posts, I write at work.
She is financially stable (nurse) as am I (professor), I meant that I would support her decision emotionally if she thought that it would help her clear her mind (and bring her back to me and her family).
The kids do not know, I would imagine that they would stay 1 week with her and then I (as I suggested she get a appt across the street). I believe that she would be gone already if she did not want to be seen as the one not working on the marriage in front of the kids. She suggested that we "switch out" with the appt to which I rejected as I wholeheartedly disbelieve in it and want to stay in the same house in the same bed to talk and work things out (although it has been over 3 months and it does not seem to be working). She is probably going to move out in the next month if my intuition is right.
I do not know for sure if there is a OM. I believe that she has a emotional attachment with him but she refutes (the way she refutes makes be believe that there is...but it may just be me). I saw him last night at a soccer practice and was going to confront him (I am thinking of calling him today or tomorrow). BUT...I do not pick up that he knows. I do not know if this is a good idea - PLEASE ADVISE. I want to ask if there has been anything between him and my W and to let him know that she is going through a hard time and to stay away...but am unsure. He is a "friend" of the family, coached my youngest son this season and is divorced. He seems like a nice guy.
I know that the ultimatum is not a good choice, but am reaching my end...it is so hard not to tough and hold her when she initiates it (or when I do). She has slept in the spare bedroom for 6-8 nights but returns when questioned by one of our kids, by herself, or by my request.
I (we) do not want to involve lawyers through any of this process. I hate the thought.
My 180 has been to return to the gym for the last 3 months (I am stronger and leaner than ever...200 to 178), I showed her all the affection and love that I have been denying her, tried to talk to her as a friend, tried to do events with individuals that complement us, stopped drinking (it was predominantly social with her...now I have returned to having a beer with her at night as this was not a issue for her). And I will attend a DivorceCare meeting tonight at 6. These previous changes negatively affected her behavior so I stopped and withdrew, to which she reached out to me but then stopped. She has stated things like "you are a good person"..."thanks for trying so hard to save this marriage"..."thanks for being good to me" but does not seem to want to reciprocate.
I walk the line between wanting to do nice things for her (rub her feet, make dinner, plant mums, housework, pack her lunch) but know that it is pursuing...I am so confused on what to do. Our DB coach told me to mimic her hug for a hug...kiss for a kiss...ect but it does not seem to be getting anywhere. It is hard to "court" someone in this state...I wish I would have IDed it earlier.
Keep posting please, it helps me knowing that you are out there.
These previous changes negatively affected her behavior so I stopped and withdrew
Would it be possible that you did not make these changes for yourself but for her? If so, she can smell it on you. Just imagine a colleague picking her wardrobe and topics of discussion just to please you. Wouldn't it be annoying rather than charming? We fall in love with people with integrity. The idea that they just try to guess what we want is off-putting. You have to become a great man that any woman would want so that she sees it and wants to be the one who has you.
Remember: she's not in love with you anymore, so now it's bizarro world. Every "I love you" will push her away. Act with her the way that you would like an acquaintance to act with you. Any seduction effort will push her away at this stage. Try to remember the last time you dumped a woman and how you felt around her. Let her be attracted to you first.
I saw him last night at a soccer practice and was going to confront him (I am thinking of calling him today or tomorrow).
You seem to know that it's not a good idea. Don't say anything to him you wouldn't say in front of your wife because he will report the whole thing anyway. Hopefully, others will have more advice on this.
These previous changes negatively affected her behavior so I stopped and withdrew
Would it be possible that you did not make these changes for yourself but for her? If so, she can smell it on you. Just imagine a colleague picking her wardrobe and topics of discussion just to please you. Wouldn't it be annoying rather than charming? We fall in love with people with integrity. The idea that they just try to guess what we want is off-putting. You have to become a great man that any woman would want so that she sees it and wants to be the one who has you.
Remember: she's not in love with you anymore, so now it's bizarro world. Every "I love you" will push her away. Act with her the way that you would like an acquaintance to act with you. Any seduction effort will push her away at this stage. Try to remember the last time you dumped a woman and how you felt around her. Let her be attracted to you first.
I saw him last night at a soccer practice and was going to confront him (I am thinking of calling him today or tomorrow).
You seem to know that it's not a good idea. Don't say anything to him you wouldn't say in front of your wife because he will report the whole thing anyway. Hopefully, others will have more advice on this.
More advice?? Why? Everything you said is spot-on!!
Starsky, who never, EVER saw a "foot-rubber" re-attract his wayward wife
Alright guys, thanks. We have a meeting in two weeks. I will cool it with her until then and continue to be genuine. Will not address the OP (if there is even one...AHHHH). Interestingly I was going to go to a Divorcecare meeting last night and she got upset stating that I should go with her and the kids to dinner and wait until it happens to attend the meetings
I replied "if" to which she stated..."you are the one that wants to attend a meeting for something that hasn't happened"....we laughed. Slept in the same bed last night, she touched me with her foot, I brought her coffee in the morning and she smiled. it was nice. I left without touching her when I said good-by.
What is the hardest right now for me is that I can see her moving out and getting on with my life...dating again...finding someone else...occupying myself with things that fullfill me....being OK with it eventually. I fully want her, love her and need her...I believe that we are right together and enjoyher company and personallity. I think she is smoking hot even though she thinks she isn't ("I'm fat")...She is not by the way. I love her eyes and smile when she remembers how happy we were...she looks at me the way that she used to even though she has forgot or is shutting it out right now. I simply lover her now more than ever...it is not fear-it was a eyeopener.
So I am in a bad spot - but either way I will be OK....eventually.
Thanks HPoirot,
We are in very simular situations my friend. My wife and I had a good night last night and I broght her coffee in bed which she liked. The funny thing it is easy and comforting to be with her even though she is in this state of change...
Stay in touch friend and let me know how it works out.
I hope you won't leave the board. You still need support.
Thanks Sandi2,
Made love to my W last night. It went like this, your comments are appreciated.
There has been a potential OM that I identified although I am not 100% sure. I was at a event different than her and my kids and she texted me that she was going to the divorced OM house with the kids to play and see some things on the farm (she stated later that he asked the kids and they were excited so decided to go. I finished the event and called her (and was going to go over) but she said that they were almost done. I told her that we were going to talk when she got home. I have addressed this before stating that I believe that there may be a emotional connection and the OM and it was a threat to our relationship and family (like 2-3 times).
When she got home I was ready to close the door on the whole thing, and get on with my life - she rejected everything - saying things like "I didn't think that you would respond this way"..."I will never do that again without you"..."I am sorry that this hurt you but he is your friend too." My gut tells me one thing but other than how she acts (or how I presume she acts) I have no valid proof....if I did I would not recover and it would end.
I was distant that night and she tried to catch my eye, followed me into other rooms, she drank too much. When we went to bed she initiated sex, I was going to refuse but hey....
Afterward she said that was confusing and is talking about space and professional help for herself. I stated that she needs to seek that out if it helps her be happy.
So yea, I am disconnected if I want to be (I was ready to tell her to sleep in the other room if she wanted and I would not come to her, I was ready to tell her that I wanted her to sleep in the other room, I was ready to tell her to move out....these are not what I want and it will kill me but I need her to figure it out).
I also told her that if she sleeps in our bed that I will reach out to her and hold her because I love her...so tough &*(# DB Last Resort rules...I am not fake and if she does not want it then she does not want it.
My anger of this situation is only suppressed by my love of her and my kids.
When we went to bed she initiated sex, I was going to refuse but hey....
She initiates and immediately afterwards says it confused her?
Whenever an A is suspected, I suggest you be very careful about having unprotected sex.
I also told her that if she sleeps in our bed that I will reach out to her and hold her because I love her...so tough &*(# DB Last Resort rules...I am not fake and if she does not want it then she does not want it.
So you see it as being fake?
Yes, confused...
No, I know it is a method to improve releations...but when I deny her and I also feel like I am denying me and us...
I do not believe A is occuring...
Hrdtms,
So you got tagged, eh? Pretty much "script" on her part. She felt she was losing control of you when you made your boundaries known, so she tagged you. You're easy.
"I do not believe affair is occurring."
Based on what evidence?
Starsky
Hey Starsky,
Can you stop by Jim's thread if you haven't already? (I'd said Mozza, but I meant Jim. Though Mozza could use some Starsky too.)
I think I quoted you, more or less, but I'm not sure if I got it right.
(As in, it was you, and it was accurate.)
Thanks,
----(G)GGG
Starsky,
Please explain "tagged" and "script" do you mean that I am it and she responded like a script.
I (did everything that you shouldn't) looked at phone records, texts, web, facebook and found nothing, talked to the possible OM (without confronting him) and saw and felt nothing...only my gut tells me otherwise. Emotional connection at some level possibly...physical - highly unlikely.
She started seeing a therapist in town yesterday and said that she felt better - talked to me about it but was nothing that I did not know. She slept in the other bed last night for the first time...stating that she is confused when I touch her and needs to figure it out. Stated for the first time that things are not black and white for her anymore (like 4 months ago when the bomb dropped). But she still does not know, she thinks the changes I made are a patch. I told her that they were simply who I am.
We have DB counceling together...but she likes to see someone in person. I do not feel like I need it. I have three sessions left. Don't know how it would help me as I believe that I am everything that I am...
I do not know if this is progress or not.
"Tagging" refers to a woman initiating sex with her man in order to "re-claim" him after she's been with someone else. It's a form of manipulation and control.
It's pretty typical. If it makes you feel any better, I fell for it once too (but quickly got back up on my horse).
"Tagging" refers to a woman initiating sex with her man in order to "re-claim" him after she's been with someone else. It's a form of manipulation and control.
Yes, and not the time for him to think......"But hey, I'm a guy, so.........".
OK, yea...don't know what to say about this. It is a possibility that it was manipulation of some form.
This hurts, if true...it hurts bad.
I want to get to the bottom of it, but shouldn't I be happy that she states that she is working on it, has found a therapist (120/hr!!!), does not see things as "black and white" anymore?
Last night was bad she was distant and acting mad (which was different than that morning (previous post),
stated:
"I cannot see myself with you for the rest of my life"
"I do not want to take trips with you"
"Lets just get through the hollidays and then end"
"We didn't make love, it was sex, I regret it...I was drunk"
Pros:
She is wearing her rings, talked this morning normally, slept in same bed and held each other in the morning.
Sure Detatch and GAL, mirror her, act like a friend, be patient, listen to her. Difficult.
Thanks for reading
Were these responses to something you said to her?
Yes, I inquired why she was acting differently. She stated that two people said that she looked tired yesterday which spurred this...She also stated that she can "Continue to Fake it"...I'm quite sad right now.
Well we continue...
She still states she does not know, wants me to find another woman, is confused, wants to hire a mediator after the holidays, appreciates who I am, does not trust me, thanks me for doing everything to help the relationship, does not want to go on trips with me, wants me to hold her, does not want me to hold her, is seeing a councelor, states "so you think the councelor is going to make me want you", wants to move out, does not want to move out, wants to get frisky, states she regrets getting frisky...
I am disconnecting.
Yes, it gives you a glimpse of how confused she feels.
This is also the reason you need to emotionally detach from her drama, or it will pull you in. If she's in a good mood, you are fine. If she's in a bad mood, you are still fine. Your life is not based on her mood swings.
Sure it hurts to see her go through this, and not knowing what she may decide next. It is so important for you to remain strong and solid. Sometimes she will want to lean on you.......and sometimes she'll want to kick you out. So either way, you'll need strength.
Well we continue...
She still states she does not know, wants me to find another woman, is confused, wants to hire a mediator after the holidays, appreciates who I am, does not trust me, thanks me for doing everything to help the relationship, does not want to go on trips with me, wants me to hold her, does not want me to hold her, is seeing a councelor, states "so you think the councelor is going to make me want you", wants to move out, does not want to move out, wants to get frisky, states she regrets getting frisky...
I am disconnecting.
Sound like my wife. Right before Halloween she was close and affectionate, telling her friends how much she loves me; we had sex (really good sex) twice in 2 days. Fast forward to this weekend, and she feels totally disconnected from me, finds no comfort in my presence, etc...I know that I shouldn't believe anything she tells me (per the rules) but detaching is the only thing that any of us can do to keep our sanity and our cool.
Sandi 2,
Thanks for being there for me through this, you have helped. I am in that place now that I am not persuing and feel detached. last 48hrs I have given her all the space she needs...plus some. She responds with...you are angry...I state, no I am giving you space as you ask. I do small things for her still, say goodmorning, bring her coffee and make her lunch but do not text or initate conversation unless it is initated by her. Lots of things to be happy about...she is sleeping in our bed, wears her rings, accepts the bounderies around the possible OM (?EA), and is attending counceling. Biggest issue for me now is that she stated that she wants to make it through the hollidays, and if she doesn't reconnect then begin mediation (yea, that is a big one - don't know about it yet).
Rzorback,
Nice name, how is the team doing this year? Your post is spot on with my W. We have made love 6ish times in 3 months. Last two she stated that she regreted it (but initiated it)however, like you I thought that it was great. I do not know how to approach this, Michelle states that when the opportunity arises to take hold...it may lead to reconnection, however if they are using it as a form of control and security...then I guess we should avoid. The obvious problem is that we cannot get inside thier *&^% heads. Oh well, there are others out there that will give us the respect and love we deserve, if it comes to that.
Best of luck, and stay in touch.
Oh the holidays are going to be rough...I do not know (she may not know) what she is planning on doing afterwards. I am still showing her affection when she seeks it (nightly). Need to 180 it I guess to see what happens.
Wife has stated that she is going to leave after the hollidays. Merry Christmas everyone
Sorry, Hrdtims. I know that must sting. Time to let her go (this does NOT mean "give up"). No more affection, no more holding, no more foot rubs, no more PURSUIT.
This is her journey . . . let her walk it. It's terribly hard for us men when we KNOW they are making a mistake, but you have to HONOR her request even if you don't AGREE with it.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky, she says it is the only way that she can "find herself" and for me not to be surprised when she returns to me. But I would not be able to forgive a affair which even if it doesn't occur..will in my mind.
There is no reason for her to leave, I have been nothing but caring.
I cannot believe that she would do this to me and our children, I truly hate her for it.
Again, thanks.
Do I help with it...find a appt with her, help her move, or do I leave it alone?
I would not help one bit. Do you want her to leave? Like starsky said, this is her journey, let her walk it. Keep the road home paved smooth and be the lighthouse!
I'm sorry about the news. I can see how upsetting it is. My W left in September and I was crushed. But I can also say it helps my DBing and PMA. It's also a good way for them to miss us. I might be a good thing in the long run.
Thanks Starsky, she says it is the only way that she can "find herself" and for me not to be surprised when she returns to me. But I would not be able to forgive a affair which even if it doesn't occur..will in my mind.
Wow, you're ready to dump your W because you can imagine an A that doesn't happen. Also, don't assume how you'd react to an A. I was saying the exact same thing before my W had one and yet I forgave her.
There is no reason for her to leave, I have been nothing but caring.
For how long? You think you can erase in a few months what got her in that place? Have you seen how long the successful sitches last around here? If you're to be a better husband, you need to develop better empathy for your W. She's suffering or has suffered greatly to be able to leave her family. She didn't marry and have kids with this in mind. She's likely sad that she lost her desire for you, her will be be married to you. Every further step she takes should be an opportunity for you to measure the extent of the damage.
I cannot believe that she would do this to me and our children, I truly hate her for it.
Don't be too self-righteous. It sounds like you're willing to do the same thing for an A you know wouldn't happen. You say that if she leaves, doesn't have an A, you wouldn't take her back. How's that taking into consideration the well-being of the kids? How's that a greater offense than the years of pain she has endured with you in the M?
And no, don't help her move out. Her choices, her consequences.
Wow,
Thanks Monzza. That was exactly what I needed on all accounts. I am a emotional roller coaster right now. And you are right on all accounts.
This helped me so much right now.
After Christmas she stated that she wanted to seperate (again) and I said to go. She wants to move out and have some type of agreement (legal seperation) to state that she did not walk out on the family. Split kids 50 / 50 and recieve financial support from me. I make 4X what she does but if she changed jobs she would make 3/4 of what I do. She wants to do this without lawyers (as do I as I think we could handle it and save significant money).
She also states (and has repeatedly) that this is the only way that she can see if she really wants to spend the rest of her life with me (which I half believe). She also wants me to help her with this process.
My question is...I know that we are not supposed to help them and make them do the work so that they can understand the effects of thier actions but if I leave it to her she may seek legal help and I will be forced to do the same (which would be a nightmare). If she is set on this course of action is it best to facilitate it in light of the above?
As most of us, I still want it to work but am reaching the point that I do not think that ANYTHING will change her...regardless if there is a EA or PA. However should I try to confirm the PA (hire PI, investigate further) if it is occuring for future use?
Let her do the legal heavy lifting. This "other job" that would earn her 3/4 of what you earn -- what is it? Something she is qualified for? Something she's been offered? Learn what you can about "imputing income" in your jurisdiction, and set whatever financial split of your expenses accordingly.
As for this:
She also states (and has repeatedly) that this is the only way that she can see if she really wants to spend the rest of her life with me (which I half believe). She also wants me to help her with this process. ]
this to me strikes at the core of your problem with her stance toward you. She's made statements like this several times. The next time she does, I would say to her "i dont want a divorce, but if you think I'm going to sit here and be your Plan B while you do some sort of self-indulgent 'dress rehearsal' of our own marriage's dissolution, you're mistaken. If you want to leave I won't stop you, but I will then be moving on, with all that entails. "
She loses respect for you -- and therefore, more love -- every time you appease her with your silence to these petty little "tests" of hers.
As most of us, I still want it to work but am reaching the point that I do not think that ANYTHING will change her...regardless if there is a EA or PA. However should I try to confirm the PA (hire PI, investigate further) if it is occuring for future use?
What does your attorney say about this? Would it make a difference in any eventual divorce proceeding in your jurisdiction? Is yours a "fault" state for divorce, and can adultery be used as a cause in a divorce action?
She's made statements like this several times. The next time she does, I would say to her "i dont want a divorce, but if you think I'm going to sit here and be your Plan B while you do some sort of self-indulgent 'dress rehearsal' of our own marriage's dissolution, you're mistaken. If you want to leave I won't stop you, but I will then be moving on, with all that entails. "
-I do, but she will respond with that she wants me to find another person that can make me happier than her...and I think she truly believes it at her level.
What does your attorney say about this? Would it make a difference in any eventual divorce proceeding in your jurisdiction? Is yours a "fault" state for divorce, and can adultery be used as a cause in a divorce action?
Niether of us have attorneys nor do we want the expense. If it goes that way we are going to handle it ourselves if we can. We have a fault and no-fault clause in our state. I may be quite nieve here but I now believe that the EA was more in my head than reality.
We may start couples counceling next week...I guess that would give me some hope.
You're being naive, and you're not listening. Hope is not a plan.
Good luck.
Hi Hrdtims,
Starsky is giving you sound advice, as he did in my sitch. You are allowing fear to be your guide. I tried going without an attorney for the same reason you are trying to avoid using one. At the very least, you can do a consultation for a very low cost, or no cost at all. Knowledge is power.
I find it interesting that you would want to hire a PI to figure out if there is an A, but don't want to spend the $$ on an attorney. In my sitch, it probably cost me more to not know all of my rights from the beginning.
Something that doesn't get talked about much on the boards, is the fog that the LBS finds themselves in the early stages. The fog of fear. Fear of pushing the WAS further away. The fear of sending the wrong signals. The fear of messing up. So on, and so forth. Fear will lead you directly to the land of regret.
Things to think about.
Hello. I've just sort of caught up with your situation. There is a lot of good advice you've been given. I know this is a tough ride but ride it you must.
I definitely agree with Sandi and more oftentimes than not.. Sex.. Intimacy.. It's really about the emotional connection. Even if your wife is initiating sex, at his point, your emotional connection is suffering which will probably leave her feeling empty and resenting you further that it happened. It's a tough pill to swallow since you didn't even initiate.
The detachment doesn't mean you shut off caring of having concern for your wife. You can still be a caring, empathetic person if that is who you are. But it does mean that her drama and mood swings do not dictate how you're feeling and what path you have to take.
All her talk about not being surprised when she comes back to you... She's keeping her hold on you. Says she wants you to find someone who will treat you better but then turns around and says she needs to find herself and with your help. All these mixed messages is enough to keep you hoping. Try not to get sucked into these mind games. Focus on yourself. Change you. It starts there.
Thanks guys,
I have changed (I do not believe that I was that bad off anyway). I am now more loving and gentle, lost 15 lbs (funny how easy that was) and am OK with the situation (rarely get emotional to the point of crying in front of anyone). I have empathy for her (truly love her), understand that this is a difficult situation for her (but am holding fast to what I need)and have a good support system in place for me and the kids (they do not know yet).
I have stated things like "I am not standing in your way of happiness...but you must decide on what you want..this person (me) that you have seen in the last 6 months is the real me, I am sorry that you did not see him earlier", "if you stay we must begin to show affection in front of the kids because it is not fair to them and I know we have it in us, if you cannot because of what ever reason (?OM, never had it in you (???M-18 T-21??) then you need to take the steps you need (leave) to find out what is important to you but I do not know if I will be here if you decide to return", "You say that the intamacy is gone for you and that you donot think that you can find it while we live in the same house but obviously enjoy it when it happens - I say that two people with all that we have can work through any issues...start this journey that you feel you need to take.
I still make her lunch daily, spend enjoyable time with her, and recipricate when she reaches out to me...probably wrong in many of your eyes...but it is who I was and who I am. If she does not realize this before she moves out then I believe she will afterwards if not, I have a tremendous amount to offer someone else and look forward to meeting them in the future.
BF - you have been S for 4 years?? does it get easier with time - how did the kids take it?
LITB - I will hold off legal representation as long as possible as long as we are civil and I am not being taken advantage of - mistake ??? Maybe but I am hopeful not.
I find great comfort in this site, thanks to you all
So she had another therapist appointment. Nothing has changed for her emotionally. The therapist stated that she needs to make a change or come to a comprimise in the relationship and intamacy issues. She is very sad
and is Drinking and Smoking more than ever before...She slept in the other bed last night until my oldest son
asked her to go to our bed which she did. She does not want to tell the kids but two of them must already know...
If this is a MLC (sure sounds it) then it may be a long ride...
If this is a MLC (sure sounds it) then it may be a long ride...
Hrdtims,
I feel for you. You are entangled in her misery. Clearly, you are not detached. Your sitch goes, as she goes. When she is stable, you are fine. When she is unstable, your emotions follow.
Your W really has no motivation to change. Why? Because she is leading and you are enabling her to lead. The dynamics of your sitch will change when you get tired of the emotional roller coaster she has you on.
You can't change her. You can affect change by taking the lead and changing yourself. Maybe she will follow, or maybe she will not. Only time will tell.
Start with detaching.
OK, what is a sitch - situation?
OK, lets go...so...
I will not initiate physical contact anymore
Will not discuss her moving out unless she has a plan to do just that ($%^* or get off the pot mentality)
Will not respond to her ups and downs with any emotion
Apply the 80% rule
Focus on myself and my children
Lets go...
If I didn't know any better, I would think that you are being a smart a$$.
SIT or SITCH = Situation
Forum Abbreviations You have this. Carry on.
It has been a little over 3 years and I will say.. It does get easier.
It was so hard and so incredibly painful for a long time. And it was scary... But my healing only really began when i truly let go. When I accepted that it was not within my control to "fix" my marriage. I placed in God's hands and realized.. The only choices or changes I could make were my own.
It was not a perfect easy ride. I had moments where I felt almost normal.. and then something H would say.. Or I would find out where he had gone and with whom... Would send me spinning. During those moments I had to go dark.. And that was to save myself.
Today, I am not sitting around waiting for H. I don't really know where I will be in a year.. 5 years... I continue to focus on looking at my life with my kids.. And making plans for what I want our life to look like. I'm not saying I'm completely unaffected by H and what he does but.. I don't really think about who he hangs out with or what he's doing. My happiness is no longer determined by what H is doing or how he's treating me.
I will tell you that I was as kind and gentle as I could be. And in doing so, I was true to myself. My kids have had some tough moments of missing H.. And moments of anxiety.. But it was so very important to me to let go of all the hurt and be forgiving of H. Being angry wasn't going to make me feel better.. This was a continual process of forgiving and reforgiving over and over...
I wish I could give my kids a 2 parent home.. But I am giving them what I can. 2 parents who love them.. Where they don't have to worry about whether mommy and daddy can be in the same room.. And something simple like on hallowe'en it we're not working, we will both be there to take the trick or treating (because that is important you know.. That both mommy and daddy see their costumes :))
Keep posting.. And keep your heart open to advice and moments of insight.. Your changes will make you stronger.. Wiser..
Thanks BF,
She is looking to change positions...I think that is part of it (part of the MLC that she is in). Daughter knows something is up..."I know you and Dad are not good" because she shows me little affection in front of them.
She is in tough spot. Knows I love her but does not want to leave the home and break the family. We do not argue much and hold each other still in the mornings (both of us initiate). She continues to state that I need to find someone else - I reply "please concentrate on yourself"
It is a odd, odd sitch. Just going to ride this one out, plan for the worse and pray for the best. It is worth it. We have been together 21 years...this sitch has been 6 months long. I owe her and the fam as much time as it takes.
In the end, I will know that I tried everything...but she does not seem to be changing. She has stated that "I closed the door and just cannot flip the switch back on." I still believe that this is related to her MLC and EA with OM.
The process is changing me and has made me a better person...but I will not lie and state that right now I could forgive her if this occurs expecially with OM...I know that may change.
We do not argue much and hold each other still in the mornings (both of us initiate).
I thought you just said four days ago that one of your goals was to not initiate physical touch anymore?
Hrdtims, "riding it out; pray for the best and plan for the worst" is not "knowing that you tried everything." Until you learn to LOSE THE FEAR, and lay some of the more difficult boundaries with your wayward wife, you're going to remain in LIMBO, which will slowly suck the life out of you -- and your family.
Starsky
I'm not sure if your wife is actually in an MLC. Sounds more like an EA which could also possibly be a PA. Don't under estimate the great lengths they will go to hide/deny any of this is happening.
I have to agree with Starsky's post. I'm not sure why your still initiating physical contact when she has repeatedly said she wants to leave. You previously said that not hugging her back etc would be fake on your part. It is not fake to say to yourself.. I know she is looking for emotional/comfort but, I need to refrain from initiating because I am just a bandaid for whatever it is she is going through.
You need to detach. There is a great post by unworthy about detaching on the newcomers board (I am on my iPad and I'm a little challenged at navigating between different pages). Detaching doesn't mean going along with her ride and letting her determine which course you take. It's about letting go and finding your own path which may or may not lead up with hers.
Here it is though Starsky,
I have detatched (and still am OK with the sitch) and have not shown or reciprecated affection before and the relationship goes downhill...she states "I see that you are turning the page, so this is how it is going to be now, see, I told you you would end up resenting me." Then she stops talking altogether...
Michelle states to try somthing for a week or two and monitor the results...this did not seem to work.
I am unsure on how to proceed other than this. Agreed more of the same is not a plan.
How is your M working, what did you employ that turned it around?
Here it is though Starsky,
I have detatched (and still am OK with the sitch) and have not shown or reciprecated affection before and the relationship goes downhill...she states "I see that you are turning the page, so this is how it is going to be now, see, I told you you would end up resenting me." Then she stops talking altogether...
Michelle states to try somthing for a week or two and monitor the results...this did not seem to work.
You make the common newbie mistake of defining "work" by "she's being nice to me." Instead, you should do things that result in her making demonstrable moves away from OM and back towards your marriage.
Your wife knows that all she needs to do at the first sign of you standing up to her is say "see? you're being MEAN again!" and you'll come running back to her, demanding nothing from her.
My wife and I have been happily reconciled since 2008. I'll try to link to my old sitch later; you'll see what I did was VERY different to what you've been trying so far.
Starsky
OK, Thanks Starsky and Mozza,
I still do not know if there is a OM but I have not initiated any contact for the last two nights and have not talked about the R or her plans for the last 3 to 4. She has reached out to me for the last two mornings and I have held her. I know the 80% rule but does that mean reject her 20% of the time?
Things seem good at home not discussing the R by the way...
Hi HRD - the 80% means respond with 80% of the enthusiasm as far as I understand...
Well guys,
I do not know how much I have left.
I have not talked about the R or tried to show affection for the last week or so and things have gotten worse. W has stated she hates me and that I am demeaning to her (she stated that she did not mean it the next day when sober). W hugged OM at event infront of me after I set up bounderies regarding this. This led to a argument that night. Her nor I want to leave the home or break up the fam. Kids are important to us. I continue to try to detatch and gal but is difficult with all of this. I will continue to detatch and gal and lean on you, my fam, and my kids while she decides.
I don't know how much more I have left.
I'm not sure where you are in all this... You mentioned she crossed some boundaries about her hugging OM.. What was the consequence of her action? I'm not saying you should have done something, I'm just trying to clarify where you're at.
It is incredibly hard to detach and GAL when the crazy resides under the same roof. But it is still possible to detach.. And maybe even going dark. I'm sorry... There's no magically answer to make it better. I just want you to know that although you may not think so today but.. It is possible to be happy again.
Try and let go of the hope and expectations and focus on what you want your life to look like. What can you change today? It doesn't have to be something big.. Maybe it's something simple like updating your wardrobe.. Something,, anything..
Thanks Smilie,
I did, I have told her in the past if she continued with him that I would not tolerate it. After it happened I stated that if that is what she wants then I am not stopping her. She states that he is only a friend and although my gut tells me otherwise, I want to believe she is honest. Too many things don't make sence in my head regarding it though...although it does not matter at this point.
She has looked into a furnished appartment. Doesn't want anything in the house and wants to split time with kids. Finances to be determined I imagine she wants to move out this weekend. I told her that I would like the kids to have time to process it and not tell them and have her leave in the same day. Our S b-day is also in a week. She said "how can we tell them and still sleep in the same bed while they know that I am leaving" I guess she has a point. They are going to be devistated.
She states that this is the only way that she will find clarity. I do not have much hope if she moves out. She continues to deny the OM and I guess it does not matter at this point. She knows who I am and how good we can be if she allows it. she states that the problem is not with me and that it is something that she needs to work through. She also states that she does not see us together in the future, does not like being intimate with me, and that we are not good together. Yea that is painful
I know, keep the road paved...keep the light on...don't do anything that will complicate the future...GAL...Detatch...will try guys.
She also wants a legal seperation agreement and I think we can hash it out ourselves and then have it stamped.
Starsky / Monza- what should I do?
She is leaving first of the month...planning on telling the kids this Sat. Pray for us please.
Hrd...
I know this is hard, and I know how it will affect you and the kids...
Just remember, that not everything in life is as it seems. Nothing is as hard as you imagine, nor is anything as easy as it sounds.
Usually, there is a human element to it, and it will come down to..HOW YOU CHOOSE TO HANDLE IT, that will make the difference...
And you cannot lead from behind...
Show your kids the way through this. If they see that it doesn't destroy you, then they will know that they are going to be okay.
Her moving out is a fear, just like her telling you that, in her eyes, the Marriage was over was.
Yet you are still here, and you are finding your way through it...
No "new" information here. Yet the way that you handle it, should be very new...
What scares you the most about this ???
Hrdtims,
Jumping in here.
1. Sounds like your wife is either having an affair OR is emotionally connecting with the OM.
2. Let her move out. This shows the kids who is moving out AND it makes the consequences real for her.
3. Go see a lawyer ASAP, just to make sure you are protecting your own interests. This doesn't mean you need to file for divorce, but you need to position yourself well in case the divorce happens. If she gets a better job (3/4 your salary), and moves out, she is at a less advantageous position re child support and maintenance (alimony). DO THIS RIGHT AWAY!
4. She's getting mean, cranky and erratic. This is often "script" behavior for someone having an affair. May just be WAW behavior. You need to be cordial, and enforce your boundaries. But you don't have to be "nice" or emotionally available for her.
5. Try to enjoy some parts of your life.
Theoden
The loss of my wife and friend, the pain that it will cause the kids, the not knowing if she is dating, if I date will it affect her, not seeing my children 50% of the time, lack of coping mechanisms (healthy ones) on my part, telling our friends and family, legal matters...
She has stated things like "I want you to find someone" "I cannot love you the way that you do me" and "I do not see myself with you for the rest of my life"
I want to wait for her and give her this time to figure "herself" out but God I so miss the touch of a woman who cares for me
The loss of my wife and friend, the pain that it will cause the kids, the not knowing if she is dating, if I date will it affect her, not seeing my children 50% of the time, lack of coping mechanisms (healthy ones) on my part, telling our friends and family, legal matters...
Hrd...right now, not much that I say, or anyone says, is going to make much of a difference to how you feel.
What I will tell you though, is all of that ^^^ is completely normal, and most of us have felt that pain before.
Most of what you describe though, has already happened. Whether she lives there or not, she has been emotionally "gone" for quite some time now.
The kids ? Yes, that is the sukc part of it, yet I will say that how you handle this (whether you "feel" it or not), will speak volumes about how they handle it.
Dating ? yea....NO. You aren't ready for that, and why would you involve somebody else in this mess, when you aren't emotionally available for anything.
Now....Coping skills ?
Yea, now you are talkin buddy. That is something that you have some control over.
What steps are you taking to find those skills ?
She has stated things like "I want you to find someone" "I cannot love you the way that you do me" and "I do not see myself with you for the rest of my life"
I hope that you can see, that this really does have more to do with her than it does with you.
Finding someone, will help her relieve the guilt that she is feeling right now.
And make no mistake, this isn't easy for her. She is struggling greatly inside.
Everything that she said up there ^^^ , that is the way that she feels today, and it doesn't mean that they are forever.
Things can change, and people can change. What happens today, does not define tomorrow. YOU play a large role in tomorrow..
Just because she moves out now, does not mean that she can't move back in one day...
Just because THIS marriage is over, doesn't mean that you won't have a better, more meaningful marriage to her in the future...
The key, is to work on how you can work through yourself, and heal, and grow...
So what are some things that YOU can do for you ???
Thanks, I will try...weekend is going to be tough.
Thanks, strong comments. I need to be calm through this process and continue to suport our kids without lashing out at her. Continue to work out, decrease ETOH some, connect with friends more, get out and stay busy and not feel sorry for myself.
But it will be difficulat between now, this weekend, and the first of the month. Man I am hating telling the children. I will be strong and lead the way but man this [censored].
Hrdtims,
Let's handle this one step at a time.
The loss of my wife and friend, the pain that it will cause the kids, the not knowing if she is dating, if I date will it affect her, not seeing my children 50% of the time, lack of coping mechanisms (healthy ones) on my part, telling our friends and family, legal matters...
The loss of you wife and friend. Yes. Totally s*cks. Hurts like a m*ther-f*cker. I'm sorry. I really am. I've been there. It's not fair and it's cruel. The only way out of this is through it. No one said life would be easy. This is your one great trial.
It will hurt your kids. No doubt. A divorce will hurt them terribly. But then you can't stop your wife from crapping over all your kids so she can "find herself" and/or pursue another man. You can't stop that. Right now your wife is being a flaming piece of sh*t. Start viewing her that way. In fact, get a little mad and be the papa-bear you need to be to protect yourself and your kids AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Again, you can't prevent your kids from living in a broken home ON YOUR OWN. But you can be the sane parent. Be that parent.
Well she's either dating or she's not. If she isn't, she's still being a turd to hurt you and your kids. If she's cheating on you, she's being a particularly horrific breed of sub-human turd. Her behavior seems to indicate she's dating.
DO NOT date anyone now. It's stupid, immoral and hypocritical.
Yes, you probably won't see your children 50% of the time. That [censored] for you and your kids. Your wife doesn't give a sh*t, because she's on her little crazy-making adventure. What makes someone do that? Umm...maybe an affair. On the other hand, if you are smart and get a lawyer, you will see them 50% of the time, and not every other weekend as most dads get stuck with when their wives decide to start screwing the pool boy.
Find healthy coping mechanisms: 1. Friends and family. 2. A vigorous activity that demands our full attention like rock climbing, karate, boxing, etc. (It's hard to worry about your wife when you are ducking a punch from your opponent). 3. See a good therapist. 4. Go to church, synagogue, etc. (connecting with God is always helpful.
Telling your friends and family. Don't be a meagaphone, but don't protect your wife or shield her from the consequences of her actions. IF people ask, say, "Darla is moving out because she needs some time for herself. She's not very happy in the marriage."
Legal matters. GO SEE A LAWYER ASAP. Trust me on this.
She has stated things like "I want you to find someone" "I cannot love you the way that you do me" and "I do not see myself with you for the rest of my life"
Sounds like she's cheating on you. Who else says things like this? It's not about your problems, it's not about your being a good dad or good provider. It's about her being romantically satisfied with a "deep emotional connection" Either she's found it with someone else or she's planning to real soon. The fact that she wants you to find someone is almost proof positive she's cheating.
I want to wait for her and give her this time to figure "herself" out but God I so miss the touch of a woman who cares for me.
Well if you tell her you'll be a good little boy and wait for her while she finds herself while exploring life with her new soul-mate/f*ck-buddy, then she'll take you for granted, despise you more and walk all over you emotionally, legally, and custody-wise. She needs to get the sense that you are ready to move on and that SHE CAN LOSE you and that losing you has CONSEQUENCES.
Try the Last Resort Technique TO THE LETTER.
Then try the AFTER THE LAST RESORT technique (going dark).
Then, give her an ultimatum.
Have your lawyer lined up before giving an ultimatum.
In the meantime, I recommend you check out the Chump Lady website for a good laugh and a unique perspective on cheating spouses.
Theoden
Theoden,
Thanks your words help. Anger is not a bad emotion for the situation, but I need to keep it in check. I like your statement. "The only way through it is through it" and have used it many times. I was able to get through telling the kids (I will write about it shortly) without breaking down too much.
We have agreed on shared 50-50 custody and a financial arrangement that is satisfactory to me and I stay in the house. I count my blessings there as I know that many have not fared as well as I seem to be.
I already have implemented your advice on the activities. I Lift daily, box 3x a week, have been climbing at a local gym and will be joining a Divorcecare help group two days after she leaves.
I do not know on how much to concentrate on techniques to get her back. I float back and forth from accepting and sadness but bargaining and denial are rarely present anymore. So as far as the LRT ALRT and Ultimatum…?
She does seem to be getting more anxious as the date approaches (and more verbal) I am staying calm and rational (the best that I can). Yes the hardest part is the EC with a possible OM and the fact that I still Love her for me but H*LL the only way through it is through it.
Thanks man, your post has helped me more than any other.
Hrdtims,
Stay strong. You are doing better than most out there given your situation.
We have agreed on shared 50-50 custody and a financial arrangement that is satisfactory to me and I stay in the house. I count my blessings there as I know that many have not fared as well as I seem to be.
Excellent! This is great. Make sure you show this to a lawyer and that when you sign papers, it's rock-solid.
I already have implemented your advice on the activities. I Lift daily, box 3x a week, have been climbing at a local gym and will be joining a Divorcecare help group two days after she leaves.
Again. Great work! This is good stuff.
I do not know on how much to concentrate on techniques to get her back. I float back and forth from accepting and sadness but bargaining and denial are rarely present anymore. So as far as the LRT ALRT and Ultimatum…?
What you are doing now, is 90% of what you need to be doing. Staying strong, etc. You are not "trying to get her back". Walk away wives can smell that a mile away. The book the Divorce Remedy has these techniques.
Here's the last resort technique:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/It's very helpful in switching the dynamic of you trying to pull her into the marriage again and always "being there" in case she changes her mind. This kind of chasing behavior turns off a wayward/cheating spouse. The LRT messes a little with their minds, while, at the same time, gives you your dignity back.
The AFTER the last resort technique means you go very dark no contact except for stuff re: kids.
The Ultimatum: Do, X, Y and Z or I file for divorce. (This may seem a moot point since you are both filing for a separation).
My sense is you are on the right track.
--Theoden
Thanks Theoden,
I will write about the night that we told the kids within a week.
What does everyone think...She has taken her rings off because "she was mad about the disscussion of Support" I have kept mine on (since married 20 yrs). Should I remove it?
Hugely personal thing Hrdtims
I had my ring on continually for over 13 years I took it off in December just before Christmas (w took hers off back in august - she wasnt religous about wearing it anyway). In my case it was because I hit a crisis point in myself, I couldnt quite get into detatching and after some issues that happened at the time (all in my threads if you want to know) I took it off (took some doing). To this day feels odd and still have muscle memory to tap it on the car gearstick or feel it with my thumb.
But, it was a catalyst for me being able to commit more to loving detatchment which Im at least better at now if still relapsing at times.
So really, ask yourself why? If it brings you comfort to keep on keep it on, you are married you care and you want to stand for your marriage. If you think it will be a symbol of you detaching (but not giving up) then take it off. Just dont do it (not saying you would) as a rebuttle or counter attack. Only make your decision based on what it means to you if you keep it on vs what it means if you take it off.
Right now my sitch is at a crossroads and Im not sure where it goes next (big reasons I cant go into on the forum) but if we did reconcile w would put mine back on or it will stay off.
Hope that helps a little, really its something you need to think about and decide for what it means to you and which is the more comforting direction for you. There may be an external effect on your w but dont decide based on that or at least not that alone.
Keep going mate you will be better regardless of outcome
Hrdims,
She's taking off her ring to punish you.
Oh so she had a tough conversation about the divorce/separation SHE's asking for? Too bad. This stuff is brutal. Don't protect her from the consequences of her actions. What does she think is SUPPOSED to happen when you talk about dividing your assets and tearing your family apart?
The ring thing is up to you. Don't do it to "make a statement" to your wife. The questions you should be asking are: Do YOU want to wear it? Are you still married? What does the ring signify to you? WHY would you want to take it off?, etc.
Theoden
How to break their hearts…
We sat them down in the kitchen table and ate take out. Conversation was joyful and light as it always is in our house.
They had no idea what was about to happen.
Two out of the three finished their food. My oldest son got up to leave and my W asked him to come back, she started to speak but couldn’t start. My oldest son said OK…., and got up again.
She stated that she has wanted this for “a long time”
She called our son back and had him sit with our other two (15,14, and 11) and stated that we had something to tell them. They were excited, and asked if it was a vacation or if Mom was going to take that new job that she was looking at. She said no, this was serious and to listen. She started to talk again but couldn’t, her words betrayed by her emotions. I had told myself that if this is what she wants then she would have to accept the consequences by starting the conversation. I had been so emotionally destroyed by her decision that I did not think that I could nor did I think that I should. Now however I saw my wife and friend in pain and my children confused…..there was no way for me to prevent it before or now….the only way through it is through it. I took over.
They had no idea.
I talked slowly as a third person, an outside observer in the bizarre situation that I still do not understand completely. “When moms and dads first meet and get married they feel that their love is forever. Slowly over time some find out that it may not be as strong as what they first thought and begin to wonder if they want to spend the rest of their life with the same person.”
My oldest son began to cry.
I continued, “This is where your mom and I are right now; we have tried everything but do not believe that we can fix our marriage while we live under the same roof. We know that we love each other but do not know if it is the type of love that a husband and wife need.”
I hated myself for saying “We” as it was not what I felt, but I knew not to lay blame.
“Nothing that you did caused this or could have prevented it. Your mother and I will begin to live separately starting next week.”
My other two began to cry, my oldest sobbed, my wife silent still until this point.
“We both Love you so much and did not want this for you.” My wife stated “we love you tremendously and everything will be OK eventually.”
We continued together, as a strong loving couple as I know we are but as we spoke, anger began to swell in me towards her. Anger due to her inability to be happy, her desire to leave, inability to communicate these issues sooner, to fix instead of dissolve, and most of all for putting our children through this.
The only way through it is through it.
Then the heart-wrenching questions:
Oldest son (know withdrawing and detached) “Fine, yea, OK,…Who is staying and who is going”
My wife, her voice shaky and wavering “I will be moving down the road into a apartment.” I thought the real why question was next but wouldn’t be asked for the next few days.
My youngest son, “what about vacations, Christmas…” My Daughter, “Why do this?”
The answer I wanted to give was mom does not want to work on this relationship because she thinks that she can have happiness with OM. That is why she is leaving…I didn’t ask her to leave and I don’t want her to go. There is nothing that I would not have done or changed for this woman to keep her in my life.
But they say that is not well for the children, not to lay blame.
So I said what we rehearsed: “your mom and I came to the conclusion that this would be for the best.”
We cried and held each other as a family.
In the weeks that followed, we signed an agreement, moved her out together, separated possessions equally, agreed to 50-50 custody, slept in the same bed, held and even kissed each other, and were very civil.
I cried daily.
All Bull*#T, I am amazed at the power of this MLC and OM on my W. It is amazing how accurate DB and DR is in regards to affairs. I heard the same statements from my wife. It is what keyed me into the actual reasons…”ILYBANILWY…we are not emotionally connected…I never have been connected with you…he is just a friend…he is not the reason…the problem is with me (W)…I cannot fix it without leaving…”
Oh well, I will take my ring off this weekend after I discuss it with my kids and let them know my reasons. As some of you have told me – it [censored]…hurts like a M**ther F#**#*# but the only way through it is through it. Ha, I truly loved that woman.
I'm so sorry, hrdtms. I feel so bad for your children.
You need to be their hero now, as I know you've already started to be.
Strength and honor.
Starsky
Are you still together with your W Starsky?
Yes, very much. We are going to be renewing our vows in April for our 30th wedding anniversary.
good, Im glad to hear of a happy ending.
Never an ending, my brother -- always a work-in-progress. Although our marriage is now stronger than it's ever been, it's like cultivating a fine garden: you have to continue to do the work.
How are YOU doing?
Starsky
I am slowly closing the door on my M and W. She still denys the OM, but I saw them together 5 days after I helped her move out and when I talked to him two days after that (community event with children)he blushed...I am not denying it anymore, nor will I live in the past.
I am attending DivorceCare, which is a religious care program - it helps a little. Working out everyday - helps alot Flirting with women at the gym - helps a little Writing on here and talking to friends - helps alot
I not to sure if I can say that I love her after this...I Loved her deeply before and during this process but now that things are more clear with the OM and after what she has put my children and me through (and whatever is to come) alows me to move on (at least that is how I have felt for the last few days)
I am going to take some time and find myself again before I start dating but then I do want to find another friend.
Thanks Starsky - I'm glad for you and your wife.
HT,
I would encourage you not to think in absolutes through this. Continue to "give grace" toward your wife (while holding firm on your boundaries), and leave at least a little side window to your heart open to her. Even 20% of divorced couples remarry, nearly always reporting that the new marriage is way better than it was before.
By remaining forgiving and civil (again, while holding firm to your boundaries and protecting your family), you keep a future option open . . . for YOU.
Starsky
Hrdtims,
Keep coming here to write, ask questions, journal. Someone is in the same boat here. Several people will read. It may help them. Others will give advice. Use this as a safe place for learning and reflection. You may not always get people posting on your thread or answering your questions, so read around on other threads. There is sometimes answers found there that will get you through.
Starsky309 is right...Have to leave the window open a little, just for her, just in case
Thanks guys, I do have feelings for her but everything that she has stated and done show me that she is moving on. Yes I accept that possibility and if she wanted back I would give it serious consideration because (in order of importance) of my children, myself, and her. I do not want a person who does not show me affection or intimacy. We did have great times together and did have that attraction (before OM / EA /?PA) but it went away for her at that time. She threw away all of her sexy clothes, withdrew, stopped taking showers with me, kept herself covered up and shut the door when changing, only made love when drunk, drank to much, smoked to much, and was outright angry at the end.
So yea, I miss who she was but I hate who she allowed herself to become. I am lucky it has gone as smoothly as it has (she moved out, did not hire a lawyer, agreed to terms that I wanted, 50-50 kids). It happened this way because she knew she was wrong, and possibly new it was only time that was preventing me from discovering the truth (if I did - I would have had primary custody and would not have made such financial sacrifices). Most of me would not want that for my kids as I think she is a great mother, she just became a ****** wife.
My oldest boy knows who was wrong, has not put it together yet with the OM, but it is coming.
I like the comments that you have had about "her choices...Her consequences"...I think she is starting to see them now, but I know that it is going to get worse for her after the kids put it together.
So yea, I have a spot for her in my heart still. But I am not going to live in the past and let this define me. It was her issue, her choice, and I will let her accept the consequences. Right now I cannot forgive, nor will I ever forget, and I definatly will not sit around waiting (as I have for the past 7 months). I hope with time and God's help (they say he has a plan for me???) I will be able to forgive. But right now I have too much anger twards her and the OM.
Keep the faith guys, love you all (read that in as masculine of the sense that you can). HA
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, Hrd, but one thing I'd encourage you to chew on:
It's very true what they say about forgiveness -- it's a gift you give YOURSELF. It's not for her.
Starsky
Hrd,
I just want to say that you handled the discussion with your children really well. I almost cried reading it. I am dreading the day that my children will have to be told.
You are a stronger person for having gone through it, no doubt.
RAI
Thanks Starsky, I agree...but am not in that place right now. In time I am sure.
RAI, hardest thing I have ever done-telling the kids. You can see my journey through these posts but stay in touch if I can do anything for you or give any advice (I have identified much that I would have changed...not that it would have made any difference).
Sorry, changed my signature to below
Ok lets try that again...
...stay in touch if I can do anything for you or give any advice (I have identified much that I would have changed...not that it would have made any difference).
As far as things you would have changed, if it is not still too raw, what comes to mind first?
Regardless, thanks for the offer. I have a feeling I will be calling on you soon. Unfortunately.
RAI
Well here it is RAI,
1. I believe that nothing, I MEAN NOTHING,could have stopped what happened after she developed a EA or PA with OM. And I do not say this to be synical but it was her not me (W said this many times). Stop searching yourself for things to please her or reconcile - truly, truly, truly DETATCH. This didn't happen for me until she moved out and I went out and relized that other individuals are attracted to me and I to them...
2. Stop drinking and smoking and any other vise that is getting you through - she is not worth it. For me my W had some vises that I temporarily adopted due to the stress, once she was gone it stopped.
3. I did all the things in DB that you shouldn't once I found out she wasn't happy (didn't know why at that point exactly) pleaded, showed love, gifts, planned vacations in the future, pointed out how happy we were, ect. Don't do this or stop doing it, it is not good for you moving forward. Again, detatch its her deal and her consequences.
4. At the end, I took measures to prove the relationship with the OM, which led her to move out quicker than I thought she would. If you are going to do this - do it early and correctly...it will set you up better for the eventual D. If you do not want to know or if this is not a factor - put it out of your head and move on. I should have looked into this before I did. I ended up well with the situation, house..50/50...and some financial consequences. I would not made as many financial consequences if I were to have proved the A. Starsky had a interesting approach to his A.
5. I slept with her everynight and had sex everyother week or so...even though I had strong suspisions. If I could go back I would have addressed the EA/PA and told her to leave (difficult due to no solid proof but as they say...your gut is 99% correct)
6. She took off her rings, I asked why, I told to put back on...ect
7. I helped her move out.
My friends do not understand that last one, however I viewed it as "I am her husband, and I will be g*d Da**ed if I will allow someone else to help her move" I told her father when I asked him to marry her that I would take care of her. I was only holding up my end...
So I had alot of Love for her between July (when she stated she wanted to S and Feb when she left...because she was my W). I possibly should have viewed it differently. I should have viewed it as "when she wanted to S in July, she stopped being my W"
Those months aged me years...
Cheers
Hi hrdtims,
I've been reading your story and the support you've received over the last few days. I am sorry that you found yourself in these straits but I am glad that you seem to be in a better place than you had been previously. I believe I recall you relating a talk that you had with your WAW and kids, which must have been very difficult.
In any event, upon reading your story, I was surprised to see the many similarities in between your sitch and mine. I recently posted a thread entitled "WAW / MLC - which way is up (or out)" on this topic outlining my sitch and was wondering if you could give it a quick read and give me your two cents.
[url=http://http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2539522#Post2539522][/url]
Thanks and best of luck with yourself, your kids and those other individuals mentioned above that are attracted to you.
Jorgi
1. I believe that nothing, I MEAN NOTHING,could have stopped what happened after she developed a EA or PA with OM. And I do not say this to be synical but it was her not me (W said this many times). Stop searching yourself for things to please her or reconcile - truly, truly, truly DETATCH. This didn't happen for me until she moved out and I went out and relized that other individuals are attracted to me and I to them...
Hrdtims, thanks for your insight. I have had a very hard time detaching and I have been very hard on myself about it. It is comforting to know why I am struggling with it so much: because I am still sharing a bedroom with W. Based on your experience, I now realize that the living situation will have to change before I can truly detach. Can one detach when you are living in the same household? truly?
3. I did all the things in DB that you shouldn't once I found out she wasn't happy (didn't know why at that point exactly) pleaded, showed love, gifts, planned vacations in the future, pointed out how happy we were, ect.
Who hasn't!!
4. At the end, I took measures to prove the relationship with the OM, which led her to move out quicker than I thought she would.
I am meeting with investigator to review evidence soon. How can I use this information to position myself better?
Starsky had a interesting approach to his A.
Can you refer me to the specific post(s)?
Those months aged me years...
I know how you feel. I just wrote something to that effect in my thread last night.
I clearly still have a lot to learn.
RAI