Hello all. Reading through this forum convinced me to register and participate. I'm impressed by the wisdom of many commenters and feel that I could benefit and could, perhaps, contribute. It's good to find other people thinking through all of this. This post will be my background story, so forgive the length.
Me: 39 W: 34
D: 6.5 D: 3
M: 9.5 years
9/4/2014: First mention of separation
9/11/2014: I relent and accept that she will leave.
9/20/2014: She moves out of the apartment.
My W caught me by surprise when she announced that she wanted a separation and that it was too late to fix anything. She was tired of my criticism and she needed to find her true self, far from my influence. She wanted her freedom and it couldn't be achieved within the family. She gave me her version of ILYBINILWY. She didn't want her kids to think that one has to stay in an unhappy marriage and they'll adapt to anything anyway.
For a week, I begged and pleaded. Then, I came across some DB-like advice and decided to get out of the way: I relented. It all happened quickly and nine days later she was in her own apartment. Her parents are well off and paid for the move, the furniture, the rent, etc. In the meantime, I slipped several times, asking for reassurance, attention, sex. Once she left, it became easier.
The understanding is that "all options are open, but we shouldn't base our lives on this". D is never mentioned.
There were a few triggers. First, she started a job at a start-up a month before she left. She found there people who valued and complimented her. It's the kind of place with a live-in dog, chess boards, Playstations, social clubs, drinks at the office on Friday afternoon, etc. She bonded with her colleagues who are younger, free, fun, etc. She was happy at work and not at home. Second, a long-divorced friend came to stay with us for 5 days and told her that I'm not good enough for my W, that her divorce was a liberation for her. Two days later, my wife asked for a separation.
I have lost at least 15 pounds and I was already skinny. I cry several times a day and I sleep 5-6 hours a night. I see a therapist who's helping me work out why I was pushing away the W that I love so much. We're not there yet. W sees a therapist for some 7 months now (she takes antidepressants) and says that she doesn't talk about the separation with her friends.
We share the kids every other week. They take the whole thing in strides.
All of our interactions are positive. I play by the book: I don't contradict her, I avoid R talks, I don't question her, initiate communications, cry or say that I love her and want her back, etc. She reaches out to me several times a week and not just about logistics. She shares her difficulties from the separation (insomnia, anxiety, sadness, loneliness, etc.) but remains steadfast.
QUESTIONS
When can I re-initiate contact and start the courtship? Our contact is good already, no fights or even negative talks since she left. Am I supposed to wait that she reinitiates by inviting me for lunch? (she already did 2 weeks ago) At what point do I take the initiative? What's the signal?
During the separation talks, she told me she didn't know I loved her this much. I'm concerned that keeping her at arm's length will only confirm her decision to go. For a LBS, are there circumstances where you're supposed to open your heart more and show your true feelings?
I'm sure I will have more questions along the way, especially as situations arise. I'm really grateful I found this place.
Mozza, welcome. Glad you found us! Sorry you had to find us.
Find Sandi's 37 rules if you haven't already and read them daily/often.
"During the separation talks, she told me she didn't know I loved her this much. I'm concerned that keeping her at arm's length will only confirm her decision to go. For a LBS, are there circumstances where you're supposed to open your heart more and show your true feelings?"
I seriously doubt she didn't know before but I guarantee she knows now. No reason to keep telling her. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, and I struggle with it my damn self, but keep it up.
You are on moderation so your posts don't show up in real time. Post a lot in small bits to help get you off mod quicker. So be patient if the replies don't come flowing in like you'd want.
Wonka, MrBond, Sandi2, Starsky, just to name a few are your best allies. Listen/read carefully what they have to say and think about it before you reply.
Hang in there, help is on the way.
Thanks a lot Jefe for your reply. As you said, I'm both happy I found you and sad that I had to.
I did read the 37 rules compiled by Sandi2. In fact, they were what brought me here and I keep them in an open tab. They gave me a little boost a couple of days ago and I'm still on that high. Very useful.
There are two anecdotes that explains why I wonder if I should open up again about my feelings.
1. After a week of begging and pleading and I-love-yous, I decided to get out of the way and adopt a DB attitude. After the conversation I told her: "I might look different tonight, but I feel just like yesterday inside" to which she replied "Thanks for telling me. I wasn't sure." Doubts had entered her mind already, probably because she considered me detached in the relationship. Now it's been over three weeks I've acted as if everything's fine, so I wonder if she thinks it proves I never cared much about her.
2. In 2009, we came close to a breakup and I successfully pleaded and begged her backed into the relationship. She told me then and recently that seeing my love for her, realizing we had something real, was one of the reasons she came back. She loves being loved and won't stay if she doesn't feel it.
Anyway, at this stage I won't be writing or calling her about it. I guess I'll keep it to myself for a good while longer. As you said, it's counter-intuitive.
(BTW, there seems to be a little typo in your signature: "WAW / Separated - 8/5/15")
In the name of sharing small bits and help get me off moderation, here are a few of the things I find hardest.
1. Finding out all this information about WAW now, a few weeks after the breakup. I had no idea my marriage was at risk, but now I see all the signs were there. How I wish I knew this in time and acted on it.
2. Being unable to share information with my W on the benefits of marriage and the downsides of divorce.
3. Having to hide my struggle from my W. I fear she doesn't realize how much I love her, that she'll think I move on real quick so she made the right decision.
4. Falling back into the depth of despair at regular intervals. It's not the daily improvement I was expecting, it's more like ups and downs. The higher I get, the lower I go. I'm tired.
5. Having to GAL and be normal in front of my W. I'm at my lowest and yet I'm supposed to spring with energy. Human nature is upside down sometimes.
And here are a few of the upsides, if I may say so.
1. The separation was a true wake-up call and I feel I'm becoming a better person. I doubt any other shock treatment would have had the same effect.
2. Finding out how many people care deeply about me. I don't go a day without speaking to a friend. My parents have been on the phone with me some 4-5 hours a day sometimes. It has gotten us much closer. Before, I could go a month without talking to them.
3. Enjoying the time without the kids more than I had anticipated. I miss them, but it's nice to have a reduced workload. (though it makes me sad because my wife probably thinks the same which supports her decision to leave)
4. Not falling into depression. I thought this would happen to me, but I manage to work part time, keep the house clean, see my friends and family, take care of the kids, buy new clothes. I find pride in this.
Mozza, now I see why you caught up with my sitch- yours sounds very similar.
You didn't mention any potential OM, but with your W's new circle of work friends (sounds familiar to me), keep your guard up. In my sitch, that seemed to be the catalyst for my W. Just be prepared so you don't act out of emotion should you find out something like that.
Seeing that your BD is still pretty new, I'd avoid any courting or initiating contact right now. For me, it's been over a year since BD and I still initiate very few conversations. Let your W get a taste of what she'll be missing without you. I think it's ok to accept some of W's invitations, but not all (being only 1 mo in, I'd accept less than 50%). The longer you remain available to her, the longer it will take for her to miss you/ the M. Focus on taking care of and improving yourself. Try some new things and spend plenty of time bonding with your Ds.
You didn't mention any potential OM, but with your W's new circle of work friends (sounds familiar to me), keep your guard up. In my sitch, that seemed to be the catalyst for my W. Just be prepared so you don't act out of emotion should you find out something like that.
I'm pretty sure there is someone. I've seen him operate from day 1, when she was still describing everything going on at work. He started by showing a strong interest in her, asking her tons of questions (it initially freaked her out). Then he could use the information to give her all that she likes: invitations, gifts, help. He's been there throughout the move (assembling IKEA furniture because he has "Swedish blood" haha! sigh...) and the kids see him several days a week when they're with my W. During the separation talks, my wife said she wouldn't be with so and so, not even a fling. She left out this guy so I asked about him and she said "I don't know. At least, he's good looking". So yes, I'm pretty sure, but then I don't have any power over it. She left me, she can sleep with half the town and then I'll have to make a decision. I never mention him to my W. I don't even use the kids argument ("before you introduce anyone to the kids....") because he came in as a friend initially. I try to think of it as little as possible.
In fact, it might be the best scenario for me. She could be disappointed quickly and I simply don't think they have enough in common to build a relationship. I'm not afraid of the fling, I'm afraid of the credible partner with whom she would build something new.
Thanks for your advice on waiting to reach out to my W. It's probably my main concern at the moment. I wish I knew when it will be time and now I don't even know what parameters to use. As I said, our contacts are already positive and she reaches out to me regularly enough, so I'm left wondering if her interest in me will really increase over time.
Sorry to hear your story. My wife didn't leave me or the A after I confronted her. The A continues and she acts like and says nothing is going. Not at all saying this sort of thing is going on with you, but after almost 2 months of constant in my face lying, I'm starting to think it'd be better if she wasn't here. I assume most would disagree, but it wears me thin.
Keep reading, focus on yourself and your kids. Get a life and Detach. So very hard to detach, but important to give space.
Good luck. God bless.
(wow, this moderation thing is really serious - I posted some 16 hours ago and it hasn't appeared!)
Tonight, I had my first 'argument' with my wife, over a month into the separation. My W was upset that I told her friend she was sad about the tragedy that hit her family (friend lost a cousin). My W had told me about it, saying she was sad. Then yesterday the friend reached out to me about work. In my response, I offered my condolences, mentioning in passing that my W was also sad. It seemed polite. The friend became distressed that she had caused worries to my W. My W was now concerned that her friend was worried on top of the tragedy and would clam up and no longer share her difficulties with my W.
My W send me a pointed email. I replied quickly but briefly ("Sorry, that was not my intention"), then she emailed back asking if my intentions were to hurt her friend, then she tried to call me, then texted me asking for a call ASAP (but I was on a conference call). It was quite out of character for her. Everything has been smooth since the day she left. She'd never make any excessive request or criticism.
I called her and tried to smooth things out. I made her restate the problem to show I was listening and repeated it to her to show that I had understood. I explained my position trying not to sound defensive, but she was really upset. In fact, I could tell that she wanted to be upset. Along the call, she showed up in my backyard to pick up the stroller (more on that eventually) and I caught up with her in person. I explained what I had really said, which was different from what the friend had reported. I, of course, explained that I never meant to cause any trouble, that I was just being polite. But what seemed to seal the deal is when I asked her to trust me that I'm never trying to cause her any harm. She calmed down, even chuckled and said that it was good to hear. She was in a rush and left, but it felt like a resolution.
The sad part is that even after all these weeks of collaboration and getting out of the way, my W can still think that I'm out to get her. The good part is that the resolution might have dispelled this impression.
Three days earlier, I had asked my wife to return the keys to what is now my apartment. She seemed surprised by it and when we met (I was returning the kids), she did not make eye contact or say anymore than needed. She was in a rush. She then sent me a curt email about a mistake I made in the package that I brought at her request. She later apologized, saying she was tired.
Asking for the keys was the first time I was taking control of the process. I think it caught her by surprise and upset her. Then again, she might have issues elsewhere, perhaps at work (she had to work on Monday, a holiday). Or having the kids for the week might be more work than she thought. In any case, it felt oddly satisfying to see that she has some difficulties during the separation, given that she painted a rosy picture of it when she explained her decision. I'm also glad I asked for the keys and that I resolved the argument without damage.
It's my birthday. A month into the separation. Not easy (please, no "happy birthday"). Birthdays have always been important to me, something symbolic. At least, I'm turning 39, not 40.
W wrote me a short message this morning, full of indifference (like: "Happy birthday. You have plans? It should stop raining. Kisses.") This indifference is what hurt the most. Losing the connection with my wife has caught me by surprise and hurt me more than I could have imagined. She was making plans for my birthday until recently. Spending it without her is hard. Birthdays are a moment where we connect with a lot of people, so I will have to spend part of the day announcing the separation.
I have an obvious and delicate question: does this thing work? I believe in it, I preach it, I've seen some progress in applying it and I've seen the
success stories (most recent are 2 years old though), but what I'm really looking for is a (recent) thread. Someone who started at a difficult point and ended up back with WAS. Not just an email of thanks, but a thread on this discussion forum where I could follow point by point how things progressed from bad to good. As should be expected, most of us are in the throes of a separation, so most stories are at a difficult point or perhaps in development. Any pointer from the veterans to such thread would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Mozza, find Train in the Infidelity forum. She seemed to overcome quite a bit and was great at following the DB process.
Thank you Tarheel. I will look it up.
It might be because it's late, but I feel pessimistic. I'm afraid there is no solution to my situation. As much as I think my W was wrong to leave, as much as I think our problems were vanilla and minor, she left anyway. I can spend all my evenings spinning and rationalizing that she made a mistake, on her side she's patting herself on the back for making a courageous move to take back the control of her life and find happiness. It's something she long deserved and she needs to put those awful years with this awful man (me) behind her. Onwards and forward! All the fun I imagine for us, if she were to come back, she doesn't see or believe. Or she'll think it would be a nice couple of months, but nothing lasting (people don't change), so it's not worth undoing the efforts she made in the last month. She just furnished an apartment, appliances and all. She's not looking back. Really, she most likely can't see our separation as a bad idea.
Of course, I'm now the victim, the guy who cries a dozen times a day, who's full of remorse and love, who's sensitive and self-aware, who's working on himself, who needs constant support to keep it together. Of course, she's now the immature WAW who didn't see the chance she had, who walked away from H and kids without giving them a chance. BUT she left at a point where I was the bad guy in her eyes, the H who made her life miserable with the constant criticism and the fights, and she packaged that idea and looks at it regularly to find resolve. She gets support from her network telling her she's done the right thing.
Sometimes, this all feels like a way of spending time until I reach acceptance...
Mozza: sorry that you are here.
Your last sentence is very important (while I can relate to all you wrote there), as it is therefore that you/we have to fully detach and work on ourselves with expectation = 0 on a future possible R with WAW/H/S.
It is THE hardest thing to do right, and as sooner as you really start the better it will be.
Be also careful not to take positive signals/interactions after some weeks or months or so, as the sign that all is/will be well again very soon. Those are just positive snapshots/moment and nothing more, unless she start talking about possible R without you ever having mentioned anything. I have fallen into that mistake some weeks ago.
Thanks B-V2 for your words. Much appreciate that you took the time.
I'm afraid I'm losing sight of the purpose of this forum. Is it mutual support to help us bust a potential divorce or is it just a mutual help group for people who want to move on during a divorce? I ask this without any irony or sarcasm. I'm a proponent of the method and I'm giving my wife space, but my purpose remains to get back with her. I'm trying to GAL and all, but my motivation is that it's my best chance to eventually get back with my W. Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide a clarification.
I picked up the kids tonight and asked D6 what she had learnt in school this week. She replied: "I learned something funny with mommy: OM* can't come too often to her apartment!" I couldn't help asking if he had come over this week (forgive me!) and, yes, she saw him one evening, sitting on the couch, as she was going to bed (8 pm).
*Presumed OM. No evidence yet.
I'm accepting of an OM simply because I have no choice. I'm uncomfortable with the potential lies from my W (she said she wanted to be alone when she left me, but this guy was already around), but it seems typical and I assume that she's afraid of seeing my reaction if she tells me. If she has an OM, she probably hides him to spare me. I think I would prefer to know because at least then I could be informed if they break up!
This OM is actually one of the best case scenarios: I don't think they'd have a future together so it might be a way for her to be disappointed quickly and see what we have.
Just to clarify, again: I never mention OM not even his name in a different context. She used to mention his help, but she stopped a few weeks ago. Our communications are limited anyway. Just saying that I'm also playing this one by the book, even if it's difficult...
On the GAL front, I'm taking the kids to my parents for the week-end. We'll have some cool family time that I expect everyone to enjoy. We'll buy the Halloween costumes.
How you "think" of OM is one of the most bedeviling questions of this whole experience. Obviously, the less you think of him at all, the better. Your temptation (as mine has been) is to think of him as a replica of you, as fulfilling the same role for your W that you do (or you hope to once again). But its just not like that.
What is it like? I have no idea. My W has acted as if he doesnt exist, even though I have plainly stated that I know he does. When I mentioned him in our conversations after BD, she would play him down as if he factored into her decision not a whit. When I told her she was having an A, and intending to stay in our house, she told me she wished I wouldnt call it an affair.
All I can think of is its some kind of short circuit in the WAS' brain.
As for your question about what this forum is about: The practice of imagining your life without your spouse has two benefits, making you work on yourself, and also possibly making you look like a better option to the WAS. Its all very counter-intuitive, and most of us struggle with it from day to day, which is why we are here!
How you "think" of OM is one of the most bedeviling questions of this whole experience. Obviously, the less you think of him at all, the better.
I don't think about the OM much. I assume but I'm not even sure there's anything beyond friendship between them. I don't know why it doesn't trouble me more, but it just doesn't. She broke up, hence she has every right. Being upset would only make it more complicated for me to handle the whole situation. One thing I made clear with myself is that I would not try to become someone else to woo her back. I wouldn't be at my best and it would suggest other men are better. I'm reliable, respectful, funny, loyal, reflective, emotional, I dress and speak well enough — I'll continue to be. I'm not athletic, surprising, patient, handsome, romantic — I might work on it, but I couldn't compete.
I felt very weak this morning and now I feel strong. I've compared my R to that of many people over the last month and I've realized that it is special: we have a powerful bond, developed through passionate love, communication, total trust and hardship. Either this bond will bring us back together, or she will not see it and will not be worth it. I can't fix her. I've been the adult in the relationship and so I've beaten myself up in the last month for not fixing her flaws that lead to her departure (immature, impulsive...). But I come to see that a healthy R has to be between equals. Either she'll develop and mature enough to come back (perhaps it IS easier without me), or she won't and she'll live with the consequences (I don't wish her any ill). In the meantime, I can be proud of who I am and work on improving myself, learning the lessons of this R. Life and happiness are a marathon. Who cares if he has a great time after the separation and I don't? It's our nature and behavior that will determine our fate in the long run.
Either this bond will bring us back together, or she will not see it and will not be worth it.
I've come to this conclusion myself. It was sort of freeing, in a weird way.
Really inspiring stuff mozza. You are in the right place.
Thanks for stopping by my thread. Just caught up on yours and it feels like there are a lot of similarities.
If you improve yourself she might come back. If she doesn't well then your still a better you and more likely to find lasting happiness
Mozza,
Man your post bout the hopes and dreams & you being the bad guy. Man, I thought I was looking at one of my posts. I'm with you, I want my wife back. I want to be a better man too. Seems as if some see this as an either/or but I don't. Just like I told my wife early on, you don't have to remain in a bad marriage, we can work to make it better! Divorce is not a beg full of magic beans for your life. Don't give up!!
Thank you all. I'm very grateful for the reactions and feedback.
Really inspiring stuff mozza. You are in the right place.
Sometimes, but not always. I still cry a lot, feel miserable, resent her for leaving, think of I could do for her instead of myself... About the only thing I do right consistently is to hold back from initiating communication.
Just like I told my wife early on, you don't have to remain in a bad marriage, we can work to make it better!
Bravo61 - Thanks a lot, I'm glad my words were of some comfort to you. We're going through very similar experiences. I would just frame your offer somewhat differently. We shouldn't ask our wives to go "back" anywhere. We should offer them a way forward, a fresh start. I know my wife is looking for something simple and easy and is completely daunted at the idea of working on our M. She won't hear a word of it. When she left, I told her that our relationship was over: either we go our separate ways or we have a brand new relationship. It was probably too pushy at the time, by DB standards, but I believe it was the right message. Another thing I tell her is that our R needed this step if it was ever to continue. Let's see if we meet on the other side of it. I don't know if it was the right thing to say, but it was the best I could think of at the time.
That's 100% the right idea. And I'm waiting for my opportunity to say those exact words. Meantime, I'm reminding myself how much more effective it is to show her what her new life would look like in a new relationship with me. It's hard, with all the stresses of our lives, and with so many factors obviously remaining constant through this transition (kids, job, house).
Your thoughts on validating and accepting Ws feelings are very poignant. My ability to do this wildly varies, due to basically a lot of immature behavior from her. I hope you can document specific ways you are doing this!
I do a lot of reading around the forum to find inspiration in the stories and responses of others.
You want the man you love to show you some freaking respect!!! Why does it seem so hard for him to do? Everyone wants to feel they are valuable to the people they love most in the world.
This
quote by sandi2 made me tear up. It hurts because my W stopped seeing me as valuable in her life. Did she lose respect? I don't know, I never thought of it that way. We just spent two years during which she changed career. I supported her throughout, even if it would be a loss of income, because I could tell that she was going towards her true calling. In the first year, I helped her gain some experience on the side while she was working in her previous field. Then we moved and she quit her job. I paid all the bills (she freelanced so put in a bit of money sometimes), I babysat the two kids while she'd take evening classes, I even reviewed (completely!) her written exam for the job she got and, at the interview, she was told it was the best! She acknowledges my support and contribution and said, as she was leaving: "I'm very grateful for all you've done, but I need to take the next step alone." I felt like a woman in her 50s to whom her husband said "You've been great to me and the kids and I'm grateful, but life is short and I want a convertible and a hot silicone barbie."
Did she dump me because I was being supportive? It seems to make no sense. I do half the work at home, like many men of my generation. She'd be home for a year and would drop the kids early and pick them up late like she had a job. Then she'd spend the day running some errands, reading, walking around this new city. I don't recall a single day where she decided to spend time with the kids, just for fun. I could never convince her to clean the house during the day because she "didn't like" to clean. I couldn't hire a maid or spend the little free time that I had while she was unemployed.
She always wanted space and I've given her lots. This summer, she went on a trip with her mom for two weeks and I was happy for them (it was an important trip for her mom) even though it meant we wouldn't have holidays together this summer. She'd go abroad for a week by herself every year and she made it clear that she needed this time alone -- I was fine with it. I go on business trips so she's sometimes alone at home. She'd regularly need time on her own and me too. We're both only children. I can relate to the need for solitude, independence and I was asking for the same in return. Our friends would be surprised at how much independence we'd have. I think it went too far, not related to the examples below, but because we stopped sharing a common world. For example, before, we'd compromise and watch TV together. In the last year, we'd take turn to watch our own shows. We slowly built parallel universes.
As I said before, I was the adult (parent?) in the couple. My wife would associate me with her authoritarian mother, not with her dad who always agrees with her. So it's not like I was not setting boundaries. In fact, she felt too criticized in the couple and left saying that she was "walking on eggshells" around me. She said I love the person I wanted to shape, not the person she is. She left to find her "true self" which was especially hurtful given the space and support I've given her. Part of me thinks "believe none of what they say". She left after she found a group of colleagues who would value her, accept her as she is and even hit on her. Competing for her attention, they made her feel awesome. It looked like an easy future for her and our life looked like a difficult present. She said she thought it would be easier to take care of the kids alone 50% of the time than share her half with me, all of the time. She is really moving towards an easier life, in her mind. I don't know yet if she's wrong.
Is this idle thinking about "why"? Time that would be better spent on me? Or is it valuable to think about the reasons that lead to the breakup. I'd hope it would serve me to have a better relationship in the future, either with her or someone else.
Mozza: this was never about you. There is nothing more you could have done to change this. Sadly, this is who she is or had become, and she will never be happy with anyone in this selfish state. Maybe for moments, but not in a mature contented, meaningful, committed way. She has some demons within herself. Please don't blame yourself.
Mozza: this was never about you. There is nothing more you could have done to change this. Sadly, this is who she is or had become, and she will never be happy with anyone in this selfish state. Maybe for moments, but not in a mature contented, meaningful, committed way. She has some demons within herself. Please don't blame yourself.
Thank you Zimmy. You made me cry. I feel a great sense of relief when I think that maybe I'm not to blame. But I also feel powerless as it means I can't fix myself so that she'll come back. In the end, I just don't know how to find the balance. Spouses will walk away on guilty partners after all. It's not always a MLC or other bad reasons. It seems entirely possible that I was making her life unpleasant by being grumpy and impatient, which I was too often. I'm a perfectionist with high standards for myself and I expect the same of other people close to me. My wife is the opposite of a perfectionist, but she gets things done quickly. I would criticize the way she told a story (get to the point!), the way she would pack a suitcase (you forgot X and Y, I can't trust you!), her impulse purchases (sleep on it!), her questions (you know the answer!), etc. Then again, we agreed on the fundamentals: how to raise the kids, money, sex, religion and politics... So it seems like she gave the R a death sentence while some community service would have been enough. The excessive severity of the sentence is where I seems to be heading in my efforts to make heads or tails of this situation.
I do agree that she's very narcissistic at the moment and can't think of anyone else but her. When she got her job, getting in her way was like getting between an addict and his drug. She'd want to go out with them and work longer hours if needed. She'd brush off the kids, she would get upset at me, etc. Later, she didn't put any thoughts in how to announce the separation to the kids. I did the online research and called a help line, summarizing my findings for her. On the day, she agreed she just wanted to get done with it and showed no emotion, nor preparation. She thinks the kids will be fine and that she'll set a nice example for her daughters. Girl power!
Her shrink told her that she needed to make a decision and then go through with it. That's how she handled the situation, refusing to have any meaningful conversation or even thoughts (apparently) about it. When I met her about 10 days after she left, she told me about her sorrow an loneliness, quickly adding "But I don't want to look at the past. I'm going forward and I can't achieve that by looking behind!" I clearly remember her speaking faster and with more authority as she said that. It felt to me as she was trying to convince someone. She doesn't speak about the separation with her friends and when she does, it seems to be some official version.
This morning, I feel more at peace with her departure than usual. I'm not okay with it and I want her to come back, but I feel like, perhaps, I could survive after all. This comes from the feeling that she's done something irreparable by showing such low level of commitment, even after getting engaged, married and pregnant twice. Maybe this was the wrong woman all along for someone loyal and trusting like me. Even if she comes back, what are the chances that she will dump me again? Perhaps I should seize this opportunity to build a new life now rather than in 5-10 years.
Your story is so much like mine that I feel your every sentence. If those minor irritations were enough to break up a family, SHAME on her and her loss for not understanding what real love and commitment are. You don't deserve this.
I am at brunch and will write more later, but I promise you, she will regret this.
No one is blameless in these things its just who has the courage to face their own fears and demons and who runs away. Make changes for you and no one else.
Find the things about you that you are not proud of whether that's a poorly enforced boundary or a bad temper and change it so you have a better future, whoever that's with.
You'll do good - that I'm confident of.
Agree with Jim but would say use that introspection in a constructive way and don't accept too much blame. And no one is perfect either. Most of us do the best we can in loving our partners. For better or worse, right? Doesn't sound like your relationship was fundamentally broken when your wife decided to check out. And you are still fighting for her! That is so rare and beautiful and if she can't see that right now, she is blind in her craziness. (And if she, doesn't, I'll give you my number, because that is what every woman wants!). Eventually, when she realizes that e grass isn't greener and she can't solve her own emptiness problem by losing you, she will come to some hard realizations about herself.
Competing for her attention, they made her feel awesome. It looked like an easy future for her and our life looked like a difficult present. She said she thought it would be easier to take care of the kids alone 50% of the time than share her half with me, all of the time. She is really moving towards an easier life, in her mind. I don't know yet if she's wrong.
Your situation is really so similar to mine. I heard some form of this from my W as well. As if she sees this as merely a reorganization of her life.
Your W does sound very focused on certain priorities. Still, I have the same hope for you that I do for me, that with some distance from this decision, they will realize it was not as simple as they'd imagined.
Eventually, when she realizes that e grass isn't greener and she can't solve her own emptiness problem by losing you, she will come to some hard realizations about herself.
Is it normal that I hope she will for her own sake? I'm concerned that she will have a miserable life if she doesn't get a hold of her immaturity. Maybe, deep down, I hope either she'll come to that realization or she will have a miserable life. Then, I think maybe she found her own special way to be happy and that I was holding her back. There are more than one paths to happiness. As you can tell, I'm afraid that my assessment of the situation is wrapped into my understanding of the world and that I'm missing out on hers, which might be equally viable.
Your W does sound very focused on certain priorities. Still, I have the same hope for you that I do for me, that with some distance from this decision, they will realize it was not as simple as they'd imagined.
Yes, my wife is simply elsewhere, doesn't think of me and focuses on her new situation. Today, she put a picture on Instagram: a cup of hot coco, a cup of tea and two pains au chocolat, tagged #happiness. Snacks for two... It felt like it was directed at me, especially as she put it up an hour after I posted (but that would imply she thinks of me). Oh well, cry a little and move on.
I don't hope she'll realize it's more complicated than she imagined and come back for that reason. I hope she'll realize she loves me and wants to be with me. It's very hard to accept that, but it's the only way forward for a healthy relationship. She needs to WANT to be with me, not just come back for convenience. I don't say that lightly. I hope I'll reach a point where I will have some standards to accept or reject her return. Right this minute, I would accept anything, but I know it means I'm not ready (my heart is screaming at my reason for writing this!).
I didn't have a good evening. I cried again because of the basic fact that my W is gone and that I miss her. I miss the touch of her skin, the look in her eyes, the way she walks across the apartment. I was also coming back from a week-end at my parent's place, with my daughters, and I was afraid of the responsibilities and the special kind of solitude of the single parent. I cried in my mother's arms, for goodness sake.
Before I finish for the night, I want to quote Fartiltre from
a different thread:
My guess is that not even she knows right now! ….furthermore if it is so, it can easily change tomorrow. I have seen it many times here!
We want answers from our WAS that even they don't know. I try to remind myself often that she doesn't know yet if she's done with me, if she can love me again, if she'll ever return. Seeing what others have gone through when it fell apart for good, it might not be such a bad place after all. So it's not a matter for us of refraining from asking for answers: it's that these answers do not even exist yet. As other vets said: you can have an answer faster, but you're not going to like it. It's something to keep in mind, as we practice our patience.
I spoke with a friend tonight that broke up with his girlfriend of 5 years because he was fed up with her. She had some issues and he was impatient with her all the time. It took him 6 to 9 months to get over it -- he called it a detox -- and then they go back together, unexpectedly. It's been several years and the change in attitude has been permanent for him. Know hope.
Oh, I forgot to proudly report that I had followed this rule today.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
My FIL wrote me an email today for my birthday (it was Thursday). It was quite unexpected, as he and his wife never really took to me and he approves of everything his daughter does. His email was very kind, thanking me for posting pictures of the kids, attaching a picture of the view from his house and asking about work. I replied by sticking to the same topics and giving a few details about work. No mention whatsoever of the breakup. I've no idea of his email was some sort of feeler to see if I'd bring up the separation, but I didn't bite. Well, I did write a paragraph on how much I love his daughter and how saddened I am by all this, but I didn't send it. ;-)
I hope she'll realize she loves me and wants to be with me. It's very hard to accept that, but it's the only way forward for a healthy relationship. She needs to WANT to be with me, not just come back for convenience. I don't say that lightly. I hope I'll reach a point where I will have some standards to accept or reject her return. Right this minute, I would accept anything, but I know it means I'm not ready
I'm in the same boat.
I told BF (when I told him we can be friendly, but I'm not interested in
being friends) that the bottom line for me is that I love him and feel like he's "home" for me. I don't care who did what to whom or why in the past (IE: I'm not keeping track of the wrongs like a score card), we can't change it. The past is only to be used as a learning tool for what to change and fix in the future, if he's ever willing.
This is the only condition I'll take him back under and I'd be pleased as punch if it ever happened.
But I'm not holding my breath, unfortunately.
Argh! I found this in an old email where I explain to a friend how my W and I reconciled after she almost left me in 2009. He was going through a divorce himself and I was telling him to hang in there, not to give up even if his wife had suggested it was final.
W and I came that close to separating in 2009, while D was about 1 year old. Actually, the decision was so final that I had announced it to my parents, which is something that I had hidden from then until that moment because I didn't want them to know and worry about our difficulties -- only [best friend] knew in real time. We were already in the logistics. It was W's decision but I didn't want it to happen, so even though we understood that there was no going back, I wouldn't let her forget that I didn't want this to happen. It sure was easier for me than for you because I was there in person. But eventually, it paid off and W came to see the light and my point of view. The wall came down in one evening. We had just gone to some counseling session were she was completely disengaged. It really looked like a lost cause. But today, W is thankful that she changed her mind and our couple is stronger because of that. I can't imagine how much we would have thrown away because of these short-term difficulties.
In 2009, I did the opposite of DB. After a few weeks of arguing, reasoning, I understood she was leaving me and I broke down. I cried. A lot. I wrote her a letter, telling her that I had finally heard her. This letter was a turning point, among others. It worked.
And now I do just the opposite of this through DBing and giving her space, not reaching out, etc. In my defense, I pleaded for a week this time and it got worse every day. Perhaps she saw the same pleading and expected the same result. Still, I am now all confused. What am I supposed to do under the principle "do more of what works and less of what doesn't"?
I mentioned this close call
above: yes, there is a pattern. My W has a strong flight reflex -- it shows beyond the R. Friends tell me to brace myself, that if she comes back, I'm in for going through this every 5 year or so. It's part of my reflection, but right now, I believe I can avoid it, make things better for good. I didn't know it was a pattern until recently so that's why I didn't address it.
In 2009, there was an OM. They had a short PA. He was a sweet talker, a married man who promised her was divorcing his wife anyway (four years later, he still hadn't...), that she was the most wonderful woman in the world, that he couldn't imagine how someone would level any criticism at her, etc. She fell for it. He disappointed her in the affair and she thought about what she was leaving behind. That's why she came back to me and our D. I forgave her A. Her commitment was firm and we decided to have another kid a couple of years later. Then five years later, she moved out and we share the two kids every second week. Sigh.
Wow, similar sitch here. Ws first affair was in 11. I too wonder if this is all part of some pattern. Post-partum factors are present at both of my BDs, and seems like maybe for you too.
Is there an OM this time?
Wow, similar sitch here. Ws first affair was in 11. I too wonder if this is all part of some pattern. Post-partum factors are present at both of my BDs, and seems like maybe for you too.
Perhaps some post-partum in 2009 (1 year after giving birth), but now our youngest is 3 so it's unlikely. What might have happened this time is that she stayed home for a year, after a very stimulating career and a move to a new country. She was job hunting, taking classes and freelancing from home. Once she got a job, she was overstimulated. She acknowledged herself that the new job had been a trigger. She saw how nice people were to her and she became financially independent (not quite: her parents supported her move entirely and probably pay part of the rent). Her shrink told her it was the last independence she needed to leave me, after detaching emotionally over the previous year (revisionist history? maybe, maybe not). The pattern here is that every time my wife starts a new job, it's the greatest thing, everybody is fantastic. Once she leaves, she can't bear anyone anymore and just wants out (flight reflex, I'm telling you). This may play in my favor, as she comes back down from her initial high. I know she's been under a lot of stress at work lately and, just after the breakup, she had her first warning that her productivity was not as good as expected. I don't want her to lose her job, but it was nice to hear that she got a reminder that this is just a job, not a new life.
Is there an OM this time?
I don't know. There's this one colleague who's helping her a lot and visiting her since she moved, but he doesn't sleep there. She told me there was no one when she left, mid-September, that she didn't want to be in a couple, she wanted to be alone with herself. Then again, her decision was quick and she moved on very quickly, which suggests and OM. Also, everybody who found an OM seem to have been lied to in the same fashion. As I said, I try not to obsess about it, but knowing would help me understand better the reasons for the separation.
My W told me it's important to be on her own as she's never "been single" and "she's always moved from one relationship to the next", which is really strange to hear from your W of 9 years and mother of 3 of your kids. And, she is seeing OM several times a week, constantly texting him, etc. there's no logic or sense here.
The last A, W had just gone back to school and was riding a high of being newly engaged with that. This time, she's in a job she likes and is taking outside coursework to advance. And she has the same flight reflex you describe. She dropped out if school around the same time she came back to the R. What will happen this time?
On a
different thread, Zimmy asked me a question and I thought of pasting my response here.
If you had to analyze, what do you think is behind your wife's behavior?
These are the reasons she gave me.
1. She was tired of the fights at home. They were too frequent and intense.
2. She didn't feel accepted because of all my criticism.
3. These behaviors had reduced her love for me.
4. She didn't see a future together.
5. Her new job had given her the last independence she needed: financial.
6. Her new colleagues made her see that another life is possible.
Here are additional reasons I can think of.
7. She has a strong flight reflex when things get tough.
8. She is narcissistic and places her immediate happiness above all else.
9. She is impulsive and will not look far ahead at the consequences of her actions.
10. She got a lot of male attention at work.
11. She was prodded by a divorced friend.
There may be more to it and I'm still sorting it out. I'm curious how I will see this list in a few months. Incomplete or too long? Indulgent or harsh?
I'm in a good place this morning. After reading the
amazing list of GAL activities from 25yearsmlc, I decided to start my own. I just have a few ideas and I'd rather have acted on them before sharing them.
Also, after repeating to everyone here that their spouse has to go through their journey before coming back, I'm starting to believe it for myself. Instead of living day to day, analyzing every sign, I need to see this as a holiday and make the best of it. I already keep busy, but I'd like to do more NEW stuff.
Today's anecdote shows that my analysis is biased anyway (pessimistic). I shared a video on Facebook and my wife re-shared it saying "Thank you H!" I thought: of course, she likes the topic, she doesn't care about me. Then I realized that if she'd done the same thing to someone else, I'd have thought: "Lucky him, he found something she loves". Interestingly, while my head engaged in the analysis, my heart was not really affected. Usually, these things tie me in a knot for a while, but this time it was more curiosity.
Hi mozza. Good thing your trying to make the best of it with new things. I agree 25 has an impressive GAL list.
It so easy to read the worst into things but that's where the standard 'derach' stuff comes in. Its way easier to post good advice on someone else's thread than follow that advice yourself
Glad your having a good day.
Thanks jim0987. I had a good morning, but my lunch time wasn't so good. With the smallest trigger, I have random memories of our relationship, often small things, and then I break down. I can't believe we won't be sharing these anymore. We had developed our sense of humor for instance and I just don't know where that's gone. We can walk for miles and miles, like few people do, and now that's over. It was a bond between us. Gone.
Also I realize that the reason the Facebook post didn't bother me emotionally is that it was a positive after all. I'm mostly indifferent to what's positive, reasoning that she's not coming back any time soon so I shouldn't get carried away. But the negatives bring me down. Just seeing in Gmail that she had logged out to go to lunch brought me down because I imagined her having fun, vindicated in her decision to leave me and for embracing her new life. I feel like every bit of fun she's having is against me, that she thinks this fun was not possible with me.
Hello time, my old friend
A friend told me last night that time is on my side. Life will become increasingly "normal" for her after the high of the new job and friends. In the long run (sigh), these new friends (5-6 years younger than her) will age and settle, move on, catch up with her stage of life (married, young kids). Also, she'll see less of what was bothering her in the R when she left -- we had had several fights in a few weeks -- and more of the whole relationship. I want to believe, I so want to believe. But if this was the case, wouldn't it apply to every separation? A majority of people would come back together then. Time can't do the whole job on its own.
Comforting story?
I like to hear reconciliation stories because they give me hope, but here's a different kind the same friend told me last night. A colleague of his divorced her husband because she had married too young, had her kids too young and just wanted to live a little (including dating many men, apparently). Years later, she got her wish but she hasn't found Mr. Right again. On the other hand, he has remarried and is perfectly content. She went back to him, but it was too late. A better ending from our perspective would be a reconciliation, but knowing that the WAW/MLC can have regrets is comforting just a little at least.
Joining the right team
In thinking of separations and reconciliations, I realized that there are several scenarios.
1. Joint decision, both spouses agree that the relationship has run its course.
2. Unilateral decision, but the other spouses accepts it. (I've seen this)
3. Unilateral decision and the other spouse fights it, badly.
4. Unilateral decision and the other spouse fights it well.
People on these forums are in the 4th category, or at least we're trying to move from 3 to 4. I don't know the stats for these situations, but we have to be in the group with the highest chance of a reconciliation.
Most couples don't reunite because LBS:
-react poorly, start doing things they shouldn't like dating, going to bars, etc. retaliate to get back. Or try to control.
-cant stand limbo, so they burn bridges to get it over with. Feels better to be in control even if the outcome is negative.
-don't take ownership and blame the WAS. Easy to call them crazy with how they act when they walk away. Easy to focus on them, very hard to grow.
If a LBS avoids those things and instead takes accountability, grows, behaves in enlightened ways consistent with their values thereby demonstrating their changes, and accepts the timelines involved because they are comfortable with their life...they have done their part.
As always, it takes two. WAS has to do the same things, usually later and oy if they do come out of the fog. When you think about how hard this road is its no wonder both partners are rarely able to do this. I, however, can live with doing my part and will accept what comes.
Can I suggest a couple of alterations to your groups
1. Agree
2. Unilateral but other spouse is resigned to it and does nothing.
3. Unilateral but other spouse fights it
4. Unilateral but other spouse realises that marriages and happiness takes work and must come from within - so they improve themselves so they can have the marriage they want and deserve (maybe to former partner, maybe not)
5. Both sides just want to hurt each other
Yours were definitely punchier.
I have to agree with Zeus on a lot of what he said. A couple of times already I've considered dating someone else but then I realise that's only because it distracts from the changes I need to make, offers short term comfort and a little bit to get back at my W
BUT...
I realise that means, I'd burn bridges, I wouldn't be fair to whoever I dated, I would be running away from my issues, I'd be endorsing the break up of my family and a load of other stuff which is just repeating my cycle that led me here. Basically if I dated right now I'd just be that same guy who contributed to my current situation and I don't like him.
The topic of dating seems to be controversial around here. It's still something I'm thinking about. Certain get-back-together methods will encourage dating as a way to make the WAS realize your worth and that you might not be waiting forever. I know the fact that my W is getting all this male attention makes me see her through the eyes of new men seeing her for the first time (they're right: she's great!). Also, there's dating (going out) and dating (sex) and I'm never sure how it's understood around here. Some say it's enough to be seen in town with another woman. As my W left me saying we might get back together but shouldn't base our lives on this, I wonder why I should refrain from dating. It looks like a strong GAL statement, no? I'm not one to have an affair and I prefer my W over anything, but as with everybody, it did cross my mind that it would be nice to date (ahem) someone else before I die. This separation seems like a legitimate moment to do just that, especially as our spouses appear to be doing the same, and get it out of my system before a MLC hits me. If it's disappointing, even better! Oh and another argument: it's a human need, not just a fun nice-to-have. I've had long dry spells when I was single and I was surprised that it physically hurts, almost like hunger. I'm not sex-crazed by any mean, but we're not made of stone either.
I'm not hell bent on dating, but it does seem like an option with several upsides. Is it common that the WAS will rescind their green light to date and consider it a major impediment to a reconciliation?
By the way, my fidelity has never been an issue in my couple. My wife knows I'm rock solid on this and not even tempted (my friends make fun of me because I don't notice girls). So it wouldn't be a pattern for us, it would rather be a surprise.
I'm not going to say whether you should date or not. That's personal choice.
What I will say is you have question why you would be dating. Is it because you are truly moving on or is it a temporary relief. If its to prove something to your W then do you really feel that using someone (whoever you date) like that fits with any changes your trying to make in yourself?
Don't get me wrong, when I found out about the other man and the way my W is throwing herself at him (she still says he has nothing to do with this) and her desire for 'any man, a REAL man' it made me want to go and sleep with anyone who'd have me. But then I realised that's just my hurt self esteem and that revenge sex probably isn't in anyone's interest
Oh yes and under UK law if it happens within 6 months of seperation then legally its adultery.
I will say that during my last S, (like this one not official, W in A while still at home) I did eventually see someone else. I don't know if it was effective per se but it did seem to bother her. And the person I was with knew my sitch and was very cool with it short term. I broke it off after a month tho, it just didn't feel right though it did satisfy some temporary needs! I don't think I'll be doing that this time.
Mozza: your feelings are perfectly normal. I feel the exact same way. I keep hoping that when reality sets in and he starts to see beyond the fantasy of his affair partner and all he gave up to have her, that he will suddenly think, OMG - what did I do? I miss Zimmy and our life together. But he is so determined to pursue this path right now, that it seems like he will never get there and have any regrets. I too cry about how he could just detach from me and what I thought was our deep bond - we used to share everything, we worked together, rode horses together, bought a beautiful home together, shared the most amazing vacations and holidays. I miss him every moment. I just can't fathom how he can't miss all that.
I think that part of the reason that he is so dead set to pursue this other life is that he feels like he has done so much damage and broken so much glass that he can't turn back now. I mean, I think in his perfect world, he would have left me first (hoping that I had never found out about the affair) and then introduced his HausFrau as his new and improved girlfriend and all would be well with limited drama. Unfortunatetly, it threw a wrench in his plans when I found the evidence of his affair. Then, under guidance from my therapist and other books, I outed the affair to his parents, his sister and to my boss at work and our friends. The idea there being that it exposed his behavior and would help to crash the fantasy. This did not work - instead it just made it harder for him to turn back on his decision, because if he did that, he would have to admit that he did something really dumb and he was wrong.
Having said all that, I don't think he would have come home one way or the other, regardless of the truth coming out. He doesn't seem to have much shame about the affair in any case, and assures me that all the people he's spoken to about this assure him that he is making the right choice.
Oh Mozza, I am so broken. I tried everything I could to fix us and nothing was right / good enough. I feel like I have no hope forever, and I need to accept that he just doesn't want me anymore and move on with my life.
Here is a list of things I think I did well:
* Tried hard to be wonderful, light, fun, supportive and attractive - this worked great when things were going well. He told my mutual friend that I was looking so amazing - I know that he finds me very attractive and we have amazing chemistry. I also worked really hard to show him how much I cared, gave him little gifts, planned a weekend getaway for us at a B&B in Greenwich, planned fun dinners and lunches. Some of this was very much contradictory to DB principles, I know, but also it was working in the beginning, and I hope that someday he will look back at some of those times together (including mind-blowing sex) and thoughtful gifts and think: WTF did I do???.
* Bizarrely, he seemed to listen to me when I tried to talk to him about his irrational behavior, at least at first when he was still questioning his decision. I used to be the person he would go to for advice and guidance, and some of that respect was still there in his mind. There is so much unavoidable logic in me pointing out all the flaws in his thinking, and sometimes it would sway him and he would really listen. I just needed to keep my cool more and be a better listener rather than try to force feed it to him.
* Lost weight (the infidelity diet worked wonders) and got an amazing new wardrobe. Think he was really astounded by my makeover - there were times where he couldn't take his eyes off me.
Things I might have reconsidered / done better:
* Exposing the affair to co-workers. This certainly helped me as it allowed my team to understand my situation and give me air cover at the office (note: we both work together), but it also resulted in the situation being more real and making it harder for my ex to change his decision (though not sure he would have). I would still have exposed the affair to his family though and my very close friends, as otherwise he would have just gotten away with it in the end and I truly needed their support to get through this very difficult time.
* Wish I had more patience and prevented myself from panicking when the fear was setting in / he was backpeddling and/or saying difficult things that triggered my emotions. In those situations, I would start telling him exactly what I thought about him uncensored... I wish I could have taken a deep breath and kept myself from rushing to react / respond. NOTE TO OTHERS: this is critical! Don't make my mistake. And don't push your spouse into a corner if you don't have to - the more you force them to a decison, the more entrenched they will be.
* I wish I wouldn't have kicked him out of the house instantly upon learning of his affair. I am not sure this would have changed the outcome in any event, but I wish I would have taken more time to think about my options before I reacted. Maybe if I could have kept him at home I could have influenced things a bit more / made it harder for him to carry on with the OW. Probably not, and maybe that would have just been more painful for me too. I don't know...
* I wish I had done more to stop him from going to Germany to be with her over Labor Day weekend. I feel like before that trip he was really leaning towards me and our life; when he got back, he was totally brainwashed and it was the beginning of the end.
* I wish I would have checked in more often about our relationship and communicated my needs in the relationship (referring to the pre-crisis times). I wish I would have made our romance and sex more of a priority.
* I wonder if I should have given him more space / no contact sooner so that it was my decision vs. his to end it? Would that have helped? I don't know.
* I wish I could let go of this more, detach, and stop blaming myself for this or wondering why I wasn't good enough or lovable enough to prevent him from doing this to me. I wish I could stop feeling like I was somehow inadequate when compared to the OW.
I was just trying to lay out some of my thoughts about what worked and didn't throughout this whole process. It's hard, even in hindsight to figure out what works - so much is out of your control. There were moments where I really felt that I was making progress, he was being drawn home, and then he would see or talk to her and the pendulum would swing dramatically in the wrong direction.
Welcome other's views on what has worked or not.
The dating is a personal choice. Although it's hard to condemn your W for Adultery when you're doing it to.
Plus it's not fair to the new person knowing that you're just using them as a ploy to get your W back and to get your rocks off.
You've only been at this for one month and need someone already? If you don't love yourself enough and need someone else to "make" you feel happy, then you might as well sign the papers now and do it cleanly.
It goes up... and down.
My wife sent me an email about the kids' costumes (I bought them this week-end). She asked me if I would be wearing one. I explained what I have and asked if she was wearing one. I was happy - not optimistic, just happy - about this casual exchange because we haven't had one in a few days.
Then she told me she'll be
Officer Payne...
My W never wore a Halloween costume and doesn't wear anything sexy. I'm now wondering if she set me up with her question. In any case, it hurts. I've already seen on Facebook that her plan is to do a pub crawl (6 pubs in one night) with her colleagues that night (I'll have the kids). My W who didn't like alcohol, who wouldn't dress sexy, who wouldn't dress up for Halloween... Who is she and why couldn't she be that person with me: I had nothing against costumes, alcohol and sexy. Seriously, what are the chances that this drunken evening doesn't end up in a bed? Sigh. Gotta be strong.
As most of you might feel, in my mind this is just my wife walking around, available to other men. It's not my ex, it's not an old girlfriend. I'm still so attached to her that it feels more like my feelings have soared through the sitch, my attachment is stronger than ever. That's what makes it so hard. And I have no power whatsoever to stop her. Anything I might say against it would push her further away. I have to take it with a straight face (or silence).
I did not make any mention of her costume in my reply. Now, let's go cry a little...
(Thanks all for your insights and responses. I'll reply later. Right now, I'm digesting the Halloween costume...)
You've only been at this for one month and need someone already? If you don't love yourself enough and need someone else to "make" you feel happy, then you might as well sign the papers now and do it cleanly.
Aouch. I did not say I want someone already and in fact, I don't. Oddly, I don't find any girl attractive since my W left. I look for her in all of them. jim0987 brought up dating and I shared my thoughts and questions about the DB approach.
Zimmy,
Thanks for sharing your reflections. Make sure you also save them on your own computer for later. It's a difficult exercise, I'm sure. Some might say that it diverts your energy from looking at the future. For now, I say we can't help thinking about the past and what went wrong and I see value in this. As you can tell, I'm still trying to figure out where the faults lie in my own separation. Hopefully, that will help us know what we should change and what's beyond our control.
A few quick notes on what worked and what didn't.
Didn't work.
* Begging, pleased, crying. We talked for a week before I relented and every day it got worse. Day one, separation was an option; day 2 it was the main option; day 3 it was the only option. By the last day, it was the first step to a divorce (she backed off a few days later).
* Being nice and affectionate to her. She turned quite mean at a time. She offered sex, I jumped, then she rescinded. Should would tell me she was uncomfortable, tell me to talk with friends instead, etc.
* Being deaf to her complaints, prior to the separation. She told me almost nothing new when she announced her desire to leave. I feel like a fool for not seeing it coming.
* Not reading about marriage and couple dynamics, believing that I could just wing it, especially after W had an A in 2009. Now I'm flooded with information, but it might not be enough.
Worked
* Nothing? Well, nothing slowed down her departure a bit, so I'm wondering what I can consider to be effective.
* Letting go. On Sept 11 (a date that will live in infamy...), I abandoned and told her that she could go if she wanted to. She was surprised by that and, in the middle of the night, came to cuddle in our bed. We made love. Twice and for hours. This is what convinced me to look more into DB-like methods. (but she left anyway!)
* Crying, pleading, begging. It worked in 2009. This year, she told me once that she had doubts at some point when she saw how much hurt she was causing. But then, in the morning, her resolve would be back. Makes me wonder if I should have showed my pain more.
* Going dark (well, with 2 kids...). It has helped me reduce my expectations and sadness. Since I don't make any requests, nor even suggestions, I can't be disappointed. And I'm hypersensitive to this. For instance, I once put a hat she had left home on a top of things she had requested and was going to pick up outside the apartment. When I saw that she left the hat and took the rest, I was crushed for hours.
Our separation is cordial. She doesn't seem to do anything to hurt me on purpose. Sure, she's clumsy and hurts me regularly (see the Officer Payne episode above...), but she's never mean, like I've seen in some other stories here. We act as two people in pain who keep their distances to avoid further pain. She's much more upbeat than me, but I manage to be neutral, detached, in my communications with her.
Tonight, I'm haunted by the Halloween costume. It's not even the potential actions that bother me most, it's the intention behind it. She's buying an S&M costume to get drunk across town with her colleagues. For what?? Who is that woman? She was barely drinking alcohol before because she didn't like the taste and effect (and she takes medication for which it is proscribed -- she doesn't care), she never wore a Halloween costume with me, she didn't dress sexy ever. How much and what can I forgive if given the chance? We're still married and she's planning to be on the prowl! How can she turn on me so quickly? How can she abandon our projects, half her kids, take away half their mom, half their dad? What's so great about drinking and partying at her age? What are her values? Emotions? Priorities? Why oh why do I love her still?
Right now, I feel she wants this separation to be final. It's just a matter of time: she'll bring up the divorce when she's ready (because I won't have the balls, so she'll remain in control). She has no regards for me. She wants to remain cordial, but her mind is made up. I've seen it before: the same look of duty as if she were taking out the trash. Taking deep breaths, trying to stay concentrated because it's the polite thing to do, keeping it short, but just waiting for it all to be over.
I'm a fool for hoping, for even being here. It's all in my head. I should abandon all hope, protect myself, move on, make it quick. I'm still in the denial stage. I refuse to see that she has packed her bags and gone. And that she likely met someone already (apparently they all lie, so she must have lied to me about this). If she regrets, it will be so late and after so many Halloweens that I won't be able to take her back anyway. She wrecked the life I had planned for myself and my children (and her) and now she goes around, happy as a clam and planning a sexy Halloween. In the meantime, I'll trick or treat with the kids, which she hates doing anyway. All the more reasons for her to be happy about the separation! Close call!
We'll never have our inside jokes again, I wont be touching her skin, I won't be traveling with her, I won't take her to a show or to see good friends. It' all over. Fast as a car accident and as irreversible.
I can't believe the downs are as down as they were at the beginning. I'm tired to hurt, very tired. I cry because I'm tired of crying. They say it gets better and it's true. They don't tell you it also remains just as bad.
Mozza: I know how you feel - it's like your best friend / spouse has been replaced by an imposter. The good and bad news is that THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. This is not becasue you did anything so wrong or aren't good enough or that your old relationship wasn't real. The issue is entirely within your wife - she is really messed up right now and lost and all the bad and selfish facets of her character are in full rebellion as she is trying to find herself, though it is clear to all of us that she is self-destructing. You can't stop this, you didn't break her, and you can't fix it right now. She is in crazytown right now and the only thing you can do is not get sucked into this with her.
Don't think about Halloween. You are only building up demons in your head that are most likly worse than the truth. Plus, think about it: she only told you to get a rise out of you, which sort of means that she cares about your reaction - hmmm, interesting.
Breathe. Take a step back and realize that there is something she is trying to figure out about herself and her life right now and you have to let her do that if you want her to find her way back to you.
I think you're blowing the costume up too much. If it doesn't seem like her, that's because it isn't her. She is experimenting with testing new boundaries. That's all. In a way, you have too see yourself on the same path, just handling it differently. She might see something you're doing differently now and thinking "huh, that doesn't sound like him". My w just got a kinda severe haircut and dyed it reddish. It looks....weird. Par for the course.
(Nooo! I lost a post I've been working on for 45 minutes...)
I feel as pessimistic as last night. I've been going through threads of people going through rough times. BigMac just
filed for divorce himself as things took a turn for the worse. Zimmy is
facing the imminent sale of our dream house (really sorry for you Zimmy, really). Tarheel has
slipped again.
It seems like my fate is to watch things get worse until the relationship is gone, the separation and the divorce are complete. I can't see another way right now. We're barely talking anymore and drifting apart (or breathing? healing? detoxing?). Believing that things outside of my control can be improved by my actions is fooling myself, it's delaying the unavoidable pain. Oh, my love...
I probably need to go in the piecing section more often, but it's awfully quiet. There's a very
nice post by Heart14 today though. It gives hope.
It's funny how I just told BigMac that it's a multi-year process and that it's not over until he chooses so, yet I can't apply this reasoning to my own situation.
W asked for a call tonight to sort out some government work regarding the kids (unrelated to separation). I managed to escape it by giving another, email-based, solution. I don't trust myself for anything more than being silent.
I think you're blowing the costume up too much. If it doesn't seem like her, that's because it isn't her. She is experimenting with testing new boundaries. That's all. In a way, you have too see yourself on the same path, just handling it differently. She might see something you're doing differently now and thinking "huh, that doesn't sound like him". My w just got a kinda severe haircut and dyed it reddish. It looks....weird. Par for the course.
Thanks for your words of reason and comfort. I find it hard to see her changing without me and finding happiness in it. It makes me feel like I was the impediment.
The issue is entirely within your wife - she is really messed up right now and lost and all the bad and selfish facets of her character are in full rebellion as she is trying to find herself, though it is clear to all of us that she is self-destructing. You can't stop this, you didn't break her, and you can't fix it right now. She is in crazytown right now and the only thing you can do is not get sucked into this with her.
How I wish you're right... But it feels so good to think so that I suspect it's self-serving. She doesn't seem like someone self-destructing. She seems to have fun, to accomplish new things she couldn't do with me (why?).
I probably need to focus more on me, to GAL. I've had other ideas added to the list. I'll mention them when I'm doing them. For the week, keeping up with work and the kids (and these forums) is plenty.
It's funny how I just told BigMac that it's a multi-year process and that it's not over until he chooses so, yet I can't apply this reasoning to my own situation.
It's easier to be rational when you're not emotionally invested. That's why some people that can be objective and give GREAT advice to others are pretty bad about taking their own advice.
It's also why people here talk about DETACHING. I remind myself nightly that what and who BF is doing doesn't matter -- he's out of our R and it's none of my business.
You'll get there. What we're going through isn't easy. It's painful and it's emotional. Be goal-oriented and mindful of your actions, but kind to yourself when your humanity shows itself.
It's so funny how clearly I see your situation, but when I apply my evaluation to mine, I am deeply biased to the negative.
She definitely IS self-destructing. Of course she doesn't see that right now. But think about the facts:
* She is acting erratic
* She is throwing her family away and a man that truly loves and is willing to fight for her - THAT IS NOT NORMAL. I think that we all think that this is normal becasue we are in the midst of it, blaming ourselves and see the others on this board going through it, BUT THIS IS NOT NORMAL MATURE, COMPASSIONATE HUMAN BEHAVIOR. MOST OF US ARE DEALING WITH VERY FLAWED SPOUSES WHO ARE DOING TERRIBLE SELFISH THINGS!
* She is confused about life
* She is acting like a teenager; seems to me that she is in some sort of ID crisis or early MLC
What I said about this being her issue was 100% right. You need to say that to yourself every day, as I do. Talk to a therapist if you haven't already. Maybe you weren't perfect in your relationship, but from what i've read you were a good husband and NOBODY IS PERFECT. I'm all about owning your flaws and mistakes and working on making yourself a better person, but sometimes you can be amazing and for whatever reason, your partner has their own issues and they need to sort them out with you or WITH ANYBODY - those issues will always catch up with them and they need to work it out.
As my DB coach told me last night, there is something that both he and I (and you and her) need to learn out of this process. In our partners' cases, there is something appealing about this other life that they need to explore, and right now because they aren't living in full reality, they are enjoying the novelty. But sooner or later, that novelty will wear off, and hopefully then, they will come to some realizations about their values, themselves and what's really important in life. You could have been Russel Crowe (the Gladiator version) and you couldn't have stopped her from doing this.
Fundamentally, at the end of her introspection, if this is the life she really wants at the end of the day, then maybe she has changed and is not the person you need for you or your kids - she doesn't value fidelity, family and loyalty and never will, regardless of who she is with. She is not worthy of YOU. But unless she is total monster, I do believe that she will look back someday when she is older and think to herself, my goodness, what was I thinking?
Also, you mentioned that she had narcissistic traits - if that is the case, it is a true character flaw and one that she will need to address head on herself. That will take time and work on her part. You can't do it for her.
Help!
W just wrote "Care to have lunch soon to talk about kids, etc?" It was after I replied to her one-liner about some drama in the news (my parents think she turns to me every time safety is involved).
I can't see clearly and I can't bear the mere possibility that our R will take another step back. Last lunch date, it was mostly just chit chat with 20% talk of emotions, mostly from her. I controlled what I said, going no further than "I feel like a man who lost the love of his life" when she asked -- now it feels like it was too much. But my attitude was pathetic: I was tired and looked sad (but I dressed up and she noticed). I always thought she's the most beautiful girl in the world - I would say that often, not just to her - and sometimes I'd lose track of the conversation, just looking at her. This cannot happen again. I need to be upbeat, in control. I'm not concerned about fighting, as I lost all will to fight with her the day she said ILYBINILWY.
I've no choice but to accept her invitation, likely suggesting next week. A friend told me I could suggest something shorter than a lunch since these things can be handled quick. He's really afraid that I will crumble in front of her and destroy the little progress I made through days of painful silence. I'd rather get prepared real good and go through with it. After all, we're supposed to accept seeing them when they take the initiative, right? That's how we show (don't tell) our changes, no?
I'm outside of my comfort zone (silence) so advice is very welcome...
(thanks Little and Zimmy for the replies, I'll respond as soon as I sorted out this invitation)
Mozza, just repeat 'Tarheel, Tarheel' in your head during the lunch and you should be fine
In all seriousness, stay upbeat and confident. You can always cut lunch short by saying you have an appointment or need to be somewhere.
Mozza: that is the worst. You know, at the beginning, when i was trying to be wonderful and we were having a great time together and I could see progress towards me, I was motivated and more relaxed and it was easier to be cool and patient. But when he started to backpeddle after seeing her or grew distant again, it got so draining that I got more and more fed up with his behavior and confusion. You know I wonder if at some point, if you want to preserve your love for her, you almost need to cut her off as much as you can and turn her loose. If she finds her way back later, once she has had a chance to miss you and see what the alternative world is like, then you know what you had is real. Otherwise, I felt like I was putting myself through the ringer for someone who was ambivalent (wrongly) about me. This is the most awful cruelty and none of us should have to endure it. What is wrong with our spouses that they think they can treat their families and loved ones this way????
I don't know. No one wanted to save our relationship more than me, but also, I feel too much and it's hard to truly detach when you are interacting with them and all you want is for them to come home and be the person/best friend you remember.
I just burst into sobs at my desk writing this. I am so sorry we all have to go through this with somebody we love - it's heartbreaking.
Mozza, it sounds heart-wrenching. Based on what I've read here so far is you need to stay strong and comport yourself as an independent, strong person, despite how impossible that may seem. If she is addressing divorce logistics, have suggestions and express your opinions/thoughts assertively and constructively. All business. Before you meet with her it may be good to do something that makes you feel strong and confident so you can ride that attitude into the discussion.
You can do it. Stay strong, and be the insightful intelligent guy she fell in love with. Do it for you. Good luck.
Mozza - obviously it's up to you, but if you feel it's not the best thing to meet at the moment, you can always say so....Or you could suggest something that feels a little less full on - coffee maybe?
You could also let her know that you only have a limited amount of time, and very much keep the focus on the kids - not your R.
Also, all this talk about losing the love of your life etc - I find it just doesn't help to think that way. The sitch is hard enough without that. Just keep telling yourself, it's early days. I'll get through this etc. I found just thinking a few days ahead was all I could do and I didn't look any further ahead than that...
Best of luck anyway...
Thanks Zimmy, your message made me think. I also burst into tears several times since I got this email from W. One time was for the pain you mentioned: will I ever be able to talk to her like before? Then I realized that what I want is not to talk to her like before, it's to sob and share my pain with her. "Normal" communication is to chit chat, joke around, etc. Perhaps that's something she's interested in. I need to set my sights on a normal interaction, not on the open heart that my emotions are craving (and that would destroy all hopes). Instead of seeing it as holding back, I should think of it as an opportunity to interact "normally" with her, as I crave it.
You've been through an awful ordeal with these false hopes. It keeps me on my guard. Thanks for sharing. And you're not the only one crying at the office...
What is wrong with our spouses that they think they can treat their families and loved ones this way????
I can't even be upset at my W for the way she handles the whole thing. Honestly, knowing her, she's doing her best. She limits her communications, she got upset only once in a month, she didn't make any trouble when she picked up furniture (left thousands behind), she doesn't give me false hopes, she tries to get a hold of her emotions around me, etc. The pain that she inflicts, often she's unlikely to be aware of it. I'm hypersensitive and can cry for an hour after she asks me a question unrelated to us. What can she do?
In all seriousness, stay upbeat and confident. You can always cut lunch short by saying you have an appointment or need to be somewhere.
Good point.
I think what I need to prepare for this lunch is to see where it fits into the timeline. At this stage, I probably still need to give her space. If we ever grow closer, it will be further down the road. If I manage to build a timeline showing me where this lunch stands (early in the process), I should be able to manage it. Still, I will need all the help I can get to prep for it!
By the way, I decided to offer to meet a week from now (patience!) at a restaurant between our workplaces, not in front of her workplace like last time (a month ago). It's a way to establish myself as my own person, to show her that I'm not waiting for her to call all the shots.
I can't be the first one to think of this: Why don't we all switch seats and go handle someone else's sitch? We seem so much better at it. I've no fear of your W and H!
That's brilliant. My ex is all yours! I bet we would be a heck of a lot more successful that way...
I just had a very weird phone call from my W.
She texted me at 9:20 pm: "I need to talk to you". On the phone, she announced that she wants to change the godmother of our oldest D from my cousin and his wife to her divorced friend who was here in the days just before my wife announced that she wanted out. We'll call her Anna (name is changed). Here's what I wrote in my
original message.
There were a few triggers. First, she started a job at a start-up a month before she left. She found there people who valued and complimented her. It's the kind of place with a live-in dog, chess boards, Playstations, social clubs, drinks at the office on Friday afternoon, etc. She bonded with her colleagues who are younger, free, fun, etc. She was happy at work and not at home. Second, a long-divorced friend came to stay with us for 5 days and told her that I'm not good enough for my W, that her divorce was a liberation for her. Two days later, my wife asked for a separation.
My W explained that Anna is a good role model for her daughters because she's a strong woman, she does what she wants and she doesn't follow the traditional model of the cute couple. And by the way, she's also done with that model.
Anna is indeed an admirable person in many ways. She's an accomplished engineer with a strong drive, intelligence, wit and many activities. She also has a bad temper and had a fallout with my W a few years ago because she embarrassed my W during an outing with her loud mouth. When my W complained to her afterwards, Anna replied that she is who she is and that if my W didn't accept it, then she didn't want to talk to her. It was mended a year or two later. Another time, my W was upset because Anna flirted with her father when they met at our house. It was nevertheless a surprise when she announced her desire to visit us for 5 days over Labor Day (we live far away now), but she turned out to be an awesome guest (little did I know...). And I should probably note that said friend is very liberated sexually — she sleeps with a lot of men, as far as I can tell. Her divorce was bad: it happened because of a huge fight and her husband just gave up and never looked back.
So as much as I admire this woman, I don't find her a good role model for my daughters. She has a narcissistic bent that just isn't conducive to deep relationships. I'm not very traditional and I can accept that she's her own woman, but the problem is what my wife sees in her. Also, this is a radical change of heart. Here's what my W wrote 3.5 years ago about Anna:
"I need to talk to Anna and tell her that D's birthday is for kids and I'm not comfortable about how she behaved with my dad [she flirted]. I'll tell her about the 1-year birthday of D and how she arrived with a "friend" [inappropriate outfit and not invited anyway], an hour late (dressed like a [censored] but this I might not mention), with a bottle of alcohol."And now, she wants her as the godmother of the same child. Can someone tell me what's happening with my W? Has she seen the light or fallen into the darkness?
I feel I have to give in and accept the change. My W also framed it as a question of fairness because our two daughters have godparents on my side. Anyway, my W doesn't understand what it means to be a godmother or tutor so she probably won't even think of the implications. She won't ask to sign anything. It's symbolic for her. Denying her request would be to disapprove of her current behavior and she's not ready for that, at all.
By the way, her tone was slightly aggressive, over-hyped. She was speaking very fast and wouldn't accept any resistance. She got slightly angry when I asked her to explain why and I had to tell her that there was no need for this. I kept my cool throughout.
I'm wondering if she recently turned bipolar. I've a little experience with such people and part of her behavior matches, but it's a stretch to diagnose her based on so little information. She was taking antidepressant in the months leading to the separation and I know she skipped them a few times after she moved.
Thoughts? I'm puzzled.
Man, that's tough. I have had those thoughts about my W too, just seeing such a weird shift in her priorities and logic, and the ways in which she seemed to be filtering out any negative opinions about her behavior and gaining positive reinforcement wherever she could, which is what the bipolar brain does to fuel it's delusions (I've seen it firsthand with my sister). But I don't know, having read more about affair fog and it's attendant chemical ingredients, I feel that's more likely.
I can empathize with your feelings about her friend. My W has a BFF who she seems to see as her spiritual guru. This woman is nice enough, but she is completely unable to live in the real world. She left her H for an OM (one of HS best friends??? And also my Ws '11 AP???) She has chronic health issues, doesn't work, she's a great mom but seems to be either really on or totally off. I texted her to get our kids together a couple of weekends ago, she responded "I'm camping in northern cal! It's beautiful here!" I texted her a WEEK later to get the kids together, she responded "I'm still camping!" Ok then. I can totally empathize with your frustration with your W having this bizarre new moral compass that belongs to someone else who needs just as much or more help than she does.
Unfortunately I have no advice. But man I really identify with your situation, and I think you're handling it well. I think you're right not to fight this, it's not the fight you really want to have.
I feel I have to give in and accept the change
Why? Do you feel you have to give in because ultimately you're trying to win your W back and this may 'soften' her?'
Think of how you'd respond to this request if you were happily M. If you don't feel comfortable with the person W has chosen, I think you need to speak up. Would you feel comfortable with this woman raising your D's?
I think an email response is the best course of action. Validate your W's point of view, but strongly outline your reasons you feel the way you do. For fairness sake, maybe suggest someone on W's side of the family? This should be a joint decision (as tough as that may be right now), not W's alone.
Mozza - this is the first time im going to to be this blunt on these boards. HELL NO!!
You don't have to accept a change like that even if it is only symbolic. You have to keep your kids best interests in mind and from the sounds of it you don't think this change would be.
Validate by all means but don't agree to it because you feel you should. Acknowledge what she is saying but maybe suggest its something you discuss when things are more settled.
I would tell wife that you do not feel friend would be an appropriate god mother to your daughter. I would say if she feels previous godmother is not appropriate then both can choose a new one that both can agree on.
Your wifes friend sounds like my sister in law. Like to cause trouble since they are liberated women, but will run when the going gets tough.
Hi Mozza,
I agree with the others that you do not need to accept this godmother change.
1. there is nothing wrong with the current godparents
2. if she wants this person to be an influence on your child that is fine (or at least I don't think you need to fight about this now) but there is no need to change godparents
It sounds like this idea is just part of the poor decision making your W is currently doing. I don't know every detail of your situation but it sounds like you have the same troubles as many of us on here. Your spouse is suddenly acting very different, testing boundaries and exploring new sides of themselves. It seems crazy and irrational to us. But many of the WAS described on here are behaving the same way.
We have to let them go on their path. It is very likely that they will find out the grass is not greener. Will they return to us when their new dreams are dashed upon the rocks? Who knows! But we can make it more likely by embracing DB. Get out there and focus on yourself. GAL and make your own changes. Look at the mistakes you made in your R and improve yourself. Appear to be strong, confident and happy.
Giving in to every crazy wish your wife has is not going to make you seem strong. You don't have to be mean, but I think you need to just say no.
As someone else said, perhaps reply in an email. Validate her thinking but then you can say you don't want to make the change at this time. I would guess that this request will pass and is likely just in response to goading by the friend.
Mozza, regarding your upcoming lunch meeting, I know you can do it! Be strong, be confident and seem happy. Think of one or two changes or GAL activities you can highlight in conversation. This helped me a lot in meetings with my WAH. Instead of talking about R I would share some great success story I had or just talk about a fascinating new book I read. It helped make me seem like I was doing great and wasn't obsessed with our R and gave me something to talk about in awkward moments. Just remember that she is in a crazy fog right now and try not to get too down about what she says. Most of us have heard our WAS say one thing one week and the opposite the next. Try to stay cool and confident.
Good luck Mozza!
Hugs, Lisa
Hello Mozza
As I wrote yesterday as a reply to you on my own thread with regards to your upcoming lunch meeting:
Yes: keep your distance, read and re-read sandi2's rules (while understanding that those are not iron-glad rules) often and understand that while we LBS's go through the roller coaster ride, so does the WAW/S. Just on different cycles/depths and up's and down of it.
The following has served me well too thus far:
- Practicing on how to STFU most of the time while listening and replying with proper validation (which is not the same as agreeing with everything said) while looking them in the eyes when they talk is another great help and tool (as per sandi2's rule 25), and not only for this crisis.
- Be the one who ends meetings at the right moment (as you are busy and having a life) and then to leave. That, instead of sitting and dragging it out and then have an awkward ending/departure. Good to keep in mind for your upcoming lunch meeting next week and beyond.
- First healing ourselves is key. And as you do not want to "rinse repeat" and bring the same problems into the next relationship (with whoever that will be), it helps to be self critical as we can only change ourselves.
Thanks all for your advice. You're amazing to take the time and be so thoughtful. You're making me think twice about my perspective. I have ambivalent feelings about whether Anna is a good role model for my daughters. She's very accomplished, but at the same time she has some personality traits with which I'm not comfortable. Perhaps a waiting period is in order. I expect this thing to blow up though because, by the sound of it, my W has adopted the advice and model of her friend Anna and this will feel like a personal rejection.
What's been on my mind since last night is the thought that my W might be having some low-grade psychosis. Medical friends have told me before that she has a "bipolar personality" but I never paid attention to it. Here are a few signs, for future reference. None of them are final proof and, even taken together, she's not a mental ward case: she's still functional as far as I know and I don't yet fear for the safety of the kids.
- She's very verbal when we meet and will barely let me put a word in. She's hyper, makes it sound like she's very excited. She constantly skips from one subject to the next.
- Other times (twice now) she's bellicose, looking for a fight while I'm obviously not. She sounds like she's in her own spin and doesn't want to be interrupted or contradicted.
- Her "need to call" at 9:30 pm last night was unusual as we barely communicate these days. The topic was not urgent by any means, especially as we were setting up a lunch appointment for next week in a parallel exchange, specifically to talk about the kids.
- She was on anti-depressant medication and I don't know if she still takes them. I know she had skipped them a few days last month.
- She is (was?) taking way more alcohol than usual. She barely drinks usually (3-4 times a year?) and now she seems to drink several times a week. At least, she was when she left.
- She's disorganized with the kids. She drops them off to school earlier than needed (it seems) and puts them to bed an hour earlier than we used to. I don't know when she even has the time to see them. She throws stuff in the suitcase without folding it, she forgets a lot of stuff (all the winter gear this week). As far as I know, she's been feeding them readymade meals every day. We used to cook.
- Anna was the opposite of a role model for her and now she wants her as the godmother of our eldest D. That's quite a change.
- She's bought all of appliances in one day, most of her furniture in a week-end, signed the lease on the first apartment she visited. Perhaps it was out of necessity, but I see here that people cohabit longer than 10 days before separating.
- She's planning on dressing like a sexy cop (I'm being polite) for Halloween and going around bars to get drunk. She's never worn anything overtly sexy, nor really dress up for Halloween. (bipolar disorder increases libido in manic stage)
- She treats her work and colleagues like a drug, as a said here before. She would get aggressive if I stood in the way and would have little regard for the kids, until I brought it up.
And, of course, she left me almost overnight. I just don't recognize her.
I know there's nothing I can make her do. It's not my intention. Also, she's already seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist, who prescribed her anti-depressants. I don't know what she tells them, but I'd hope they would notice something's wrong. But knowing that perhaps this is what she's going through can inform the way I see the whole situation and how I interact with her. I can be on the lookout for a worsening of the situation.
So this is very much on my mind as it would cast a new light on my separation or at least on the way forward.
As one of my close friends put it to me, they are in crazytown right now. They are sick emotionally and probably have some deep-rooted character flaws that are coming out - there is nothing you did to cause this, and there is little you can do to fix it.
I forgot at least two symptoms.
- She lost some 15 pounds, which is over 10% of her weight. Apparently it's an important sign, but I lost just as much because of the stress.
- She has insomnia. She's had this problem for a long time, but it has continued through the separation.
Of course, I went to read about bipolar disorder, mania and hypomania. There's no way to diagnose my W from a distance, but it seems reasonable to think that she has some degree of hypomania. She also has some medical history that makes it more likely, so it's not like she's hypomaniac just because she left me.
I also found this interesting
blog post from a spouse on how to speak to a bipolar person (he's facing a serious, diagnosed, medicated case). It's surprising how much it mirrors DB: there's not much you can do, but get out of the way, let it play out and protect yourself. You're not responsible for the harm they are doing. It's reinforcing and I thought some of you who may suspect that their spouse's behavior is due to some chemical imbalance may be interested to read that.
... aaand the high is gone. I could feel physically the low coming. I simply regretted in passing being unable to share today's work with her and that was it for me. Now my eyes are swelling and I can hardly work.
I once wrote a song (for personal use, don't search iTunes!) about three characters who are at the top of their field, but all get broken down by a girl. I had no idea it would be me one day (though I'm at the top of no field). Now I'm almost forty and she has me crying every day, speaking to my parents for hours every day, spending most of my sane hours looking for ways to cope with the pain, reading books about love. Like all of you, I never thought I would end up here. I never meant to separate.
Sorry, this interruption was sponsored by Sorrow & Pain. Now back to our main program.
Mozza, I work for a church. On rare occasion, we have added a godparent, but that doesn't remove the previous ones. The child just now has another one.
That doesn't change the question of whether this woman would be a good godmother, but I just wanted to add that perspective in case it made any difference to you.
rppfl - Thanks a lot. It's actually an interesting solution, even if she wants to choose someone else.
Zimmy - Thanks a lot for your kind words of support. I agree that there's something happening with my W for which I'm not responsible, but I feel like I have more to blame on myself than you, and I'll get back to this very soon.
BV-2: Thanks a lot for your advice. I'm good at STFU, but I feel I have to get to the next step and that's the hardest. It probably goes through some introspection, which is what I need to focus on right now.
LisaB: Thanks for all the reminders of what is the right path. I feel like I'm on it, but that it's very painful and hard. I really appreciate the advice about the upcoming lunch meeting. I'll need more!
Last night, I searched for the words "I love you" in my emails with my W. The last time she wrote it to me was in July, when she was traveling and I was going through a low. The last time I wrote it to her was for our anniversary in February...
Most importantly, I found an email from April where she laid out all that she needed from me. It was very painful to read, because she said there all that she needed for me to wake up and I didn't. Here's the gist of it.
WIFE
I've been meaning to tell you: your actions have real consequences. Your careless attitude with me hurts me. I feel even less valued and important to you. Why is it that I ask stupid questions that make you snap? How come I haven't learned to think or respond better? That's what your reactions tell me. I'm not a good person, my questions and reasoning are naive and stupid. You hurt me: you don't take care of me when you act like this. And me, I need it. I need to feel that you love me, that you show me, that you tell me too. At least, that you don't make me feel so bad. And yes, I take it very seriously: I'm an emotional person who's honest with my emotions. So when I'm telling you that I feel bad when you do me wrong, it's true.
I suffer. I'm alone and I don't feel your support. There. I had to tell you and I want you to tell me that you hear me, that you will try to be kinder to me.
I'm starting a therapy to feel better. You're one of the things that bring sadness in my life. I love you but I think we're not a good couple at the moment. It has to change. I want us to make each other happy. I don't want to be a source of stress and sadness for each other. I want us to support each other openly.
This is a heavy burden. I had to tell you before you go on your trip tomorrow. It's important.
Thanks for listening.
ME
I read you. I'm sorry I hurt you. I don't have an immediate answer and I won't have one before I leave -- I'm not sure I understand the link with my trip. You still imagine I'm telling you you're stupid, the cycle goes on... I really don't know what to tell you. You know I'm with my parents right now and that I ignore them at the moment to reply. Still, it's ok to tell me. Ideally, we should find a good moment to discuss this in person.
How could she have been any clearer? Her message is perfect. It's what she needed to say and what I needed to hear, yet I didn't. I barely acknowledged her call and made her feel guilty for saying it at the wrong moment. I can read that the kind words were pried out of me and weren't soothing one bit. I can't imagine her reading this and feeling any better, heard. In my weak defense, I was at my D6's show with my parents at the time, but even in replying quickly, I could have been much kinder. Of course, we never set a time to have said discussion.
I share this here because I want to be honest about the reasons that lead to my painful separation. I've a lot to answer for. I sowed the wind, I reap the whirlwind. I just don't know how I can dig myself out of that whole.
Zimmy: After reading this, you'll understand better why I can't blame my separation on my wife's "craziness".
Hi Mozza, ooh rppfl has a good suggestion. I'd go with listen and validate, then say there is nothing wrong with current godparents (not stridently but just calmly state it) and if she still puts up a fuss go with rppfl's suggestion. Genius. Compromise.
I'm no doctor, but the symptoms you listed don't really sound like a serious disease to me. I'd say these behaviors are typical for the WAS. She does sound like maybe she might have some issues with anxiety or ADHD, accounting for the hyper talking and insomnia. But does it even matter? There is NOTHING you can do about it. Even if you are 100% right that she is bipolar, telling her that will just drive her away. You cannot get her to see your perspective at this time.
My WAH also did a lot of stupid and crazy things around BD. He is starting to mellow out after a few months. The fog drives them to crazytown... try to let it go. If you want to think of her as bipolar or ill or completely insane, go ahead, it may help you to deal with the wacky behavior. But it's pretty much a waste of your time to obsess on it as there is nothing you can do about it now.
Good luck Mozza! When is your lunch?
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks a lot Lisa. You're right, I've no evidence that W has hypomania. And you're even righter that I couldn't do anything about it. I wouldn't. I think I explore this idea as part of my efforts to understand what happened and what's happening now. In fact, thinking she has hypomania could help me keep my distances, as it's a different, medical way to say that she can't be reasoned with at the moment. Whatever keeps me on the DB path...
I suggested lunch next Wednesday or Thursday but she hasn't replied. We met for one minute this morning to exchange the kids' suitcase. I had trouble sleeping because of the anticipation... It went well. I noticed her new coat, she noticed my new scarf and that I smell nice. We weren't sure about kissing before going our separate ways, like two strangers. We did, on the cheeks of course.
GAL - I spent the weekend out of town, with a dear friend. We went mountain biking, having drinks, eating out, driving and walking around. I spent a lot of time speaking about my sitch, but strangely it's what makes me feel good.
I registered for another one of my GAL activities: mentoring. Let's see if they need me. It sounds like a great way to feel useful and meet new people. It's something I've been meaning to do for years and never took the time.
I started reading The Little Prince, to find inspiration about how to treat people.
Working on myself - I'm ashamed to admit that, but I had filmed an argument with my W this summer. I thought she was constantly contradicting herself and wanted to keep a record. Filming didn't help calm things down, of course... Well, now I have the video as a witness of our dynamic. I checked 4-5 minutes of it (20 minutes) this week-end. It's too hard to see, much like the email above. I see all that we were doing wrong and wish we could do it all over again.
In August, my wife told me I had an anger management problem when I slammed a door. I thought she was exaggerating, but as part of my efforts to explore all of her criticisms, I decided to at least read about it. The little I've done has already been enlightening. I thought it was about violent people screaming, but the range extends to silent, sulking people, with all that's in between.
Interactions - The kids are with her for a 3rd week (we alternate every week) and I asked if I could have the kids for dinner on Monday, like the other two weeks (she never did the same). She said no because it's her week and the kids are happy with her. It crushed me. I'm doing it for D3 because I've been told by a helpline that 7 days at a time is long for them. I feel sad that her needs might not be met and that I'll see them even less now.
She still hasn't replied if we meet for lunch on Wednesday or Thursday. I've made plans for Wednesday in the meantime. I won't send a reminder: she's the one who had offered to meet, the ball is in her court.
We met on Friday to exchange the kids' suitcase. It was just a minute. I commented on her new coat (she also had a new dress but it could hardly see it under her coat). She commented on my new scarf and noticed that I smell good (cologne is back - she had bought it for me and I had stopped wearing it in the last 2 years). At the end, both of us didn't know if we should kiss. We did and this time I only air kissed her while she gave me a real kiss on the cheek. Receive 10, give 9 back.
Also, all this talk about losing the love of your life etc - I find it just doesn't help to think that way. The sitch is hard enough without that. Just keep telling yourself, it's early days. I'll get through this etc.
Excellent point. I torture myself thinking how much I love her and all the things we've done together. My brain goes there without my consent, but I always come back battered. I like the idea of focusing on what I'll do instead. And that I'll get through it.
HELP!
My W is suggesting to schedule the lunch tomorrow (Tuesday). Last week, I had offered Wednesday or Thursday and since then I made other plans for Wednesday.
I don't know if she does it on purpose, but she constantly contradicts me on the rare things I dare to suggest. Yesterday, I asked that we use a bigger suitcase (in her possession) for the kids and she just said no, use a plastic bag if the suitcase is too small. I asked to have the kids tonight just for dinner (like we did the other weeks) and she said no, it's my week and they're happy with me. Now I offer Wednesday-Thursday and she replies with Tuesday.
My friend thinks she doesn't try to contradict or upset me. She doesn't care about me, period. She does appear to be in a state where she's not in the mood to make any compromise with me. I feel she is testing my limits, but perhaps it's innocent.
Something tells me I should stick to my guns, say I'm now busy on Wednesday and offer Thursday.
I'm slightly afraid she'll postpone to next week if I stick to Thursday. I much prefer having the lunch this week because she has the kids, so I'll be more rested than her.
I'm an emotional mess today. Not detached at all. Random memories of our years together pop in my head and swell my eyes. Lows mean there are highs on the horizon. But I've no way of knowing how I'll feel tomorrow or Thursday.
My gut says pick your battles. Do Tuesday. Be gracious and tell her that's fine..
Then gird your loins and shore up your emotions. This is not a hill to die on.
It depends whether Tuesday is a problem for you or not. If its not there is no point disagreeing over it.
I decided to push for Thursday. I had never offered Tuesday anyway and it made me feel like a pushover to accept her offer outside of my proposal. She replied: "It should work, yes. Let's keep in touch." She makes me feel like a second choice, but at least it suggests she doesn't have anything important to tell me! Thanks for the advice, Little and jim0987: it helped me realize what I really wanted to tell her (though following our intuition seems to rarely pay off around here...)
I feel my W and I are still weeks or months away from having normal discussions, where she has worked through a few things and I'm more emotionally capable, so I've no expectations for this lunch. This being said, I need help to prepare for it!
Went to see my therapist today. He's from the psychoanalytic branch (Freudian) so we got talking about my parents, anger, guilt, etc. When I told him I was concerned about my wife's safety, he said I should be angry at her instead. That my way to express anger was to repress it and extend concerned, sympathy. Even in the email exchange
above, he thinks I repressed anger, to my detriment. It took me by surprise because I feel I've expressed too much anger at my W, which lead to the separation. We're not done with his.
I mention this because seeing a therapist brings a completely different perspective. He's not really interested in getting me back with W -- he has no power and not enough information anyway. He's only interested in my issues. It sounds like the right path, to work on myself rather than obsess about my W. Food for thought if you've been considering meeting with a therapist.
Hey Mozza, I totally get what you are talking about with the Tuesday/Thursday stuff. It seems like they are doing it on purpose or maybe they don't care about you at all, or maybe they just enjoy being contrary. Annoying! Good for you for standing your ground. But sometimes I wonder if I am being too stubborn trying to fight against this annoying habit they have developed of not listening. As Jim and Little said, it helps to pick your battles. I think you handled this well though.
Hugs, Lisa
I had drinks with a friend last night and he was so spot on the DB technique, without having read anything about it, that it was eery. Detach, move on, get a life, become attractive, let her evolve, etc. I thought it couldn't be done on instinct, but apparently people outside of the situation see things much more clearly than we do.
He was adamant that I should cut the last ties that we have (except the kids!), namely all the stuff that she left in the home. In theory, she took everything, but every week she finds something new that she forgot. There are things I'm fully aware she left behind (dolls, DVDs, books) and there are things that are more ambiguous because we bought everything together for over 9 years. I'm not keen on having her come back for another round. I'm thinking of packing a suitcase with the leftover stuff and tell her it's over after that. It's very painful every time she asks for something new (I had a good cry next to the ice skates...). The downside is that part of me thinks sending her stuff is all a waste of time since she'll come back and that it suggests she might know she'll come back. The upside is that it gives me a bit of control over the breakup and make her realize she might lose control of this whole process. I don't want to rush thing either.
Advice?
Wish I had some for you (for me for that matter)
Mozza, I have a similar problem in that now that W has her own place, she's taken a lot of her stuff, but not all. As much as I'd like to pack the rest up and leave it out front for her, I worry that would give her the final push she needs to file for D. Leaving some of her things at the house means she still has an attachment to it, so the possibility of coming back is always open.
Does it hurt to look at some of her clothes when I walk into the closet? Sure, but it also gives me hope because it represents her conflicted feelings. If your W was dead set on being done, she could easily stop by, walk room to room and collect every last thing of hers.
By the way, my W spend a year at home while looking for a job, just before she got this over-stimulating job and left me 3-4 weeks later. My friend (above), who worked from home for a while, said that she was leaving the apartment as much as she was leaving me. It probably felt like a prison to her, and indeed she said she felt "oppressed" in the apartment and couldn't stand being there anymore (it was after she moved out). It added a new dimension to the separation, another potential cause. It feels like it was a perfect storm of internal and external factors and I didn't see it coming. As for my wife, she's still totally unaware of it and just convinced that this whole thing is driven by her feelings for me, who are real and safe from any outside influence (sigh). For me, it's just a bad moment we should have crossed together (move, young kids, new job, etc.). As I become increasingly aware of what probably lead to my separation, I have more regrets not bringing it up in the talks leading to it. I wish I could have explained to her better than she did what was happening to her. It worked in the past, especially if I'd know stuff about her that she didn't tell me yet.
A couple of days before she left, I told her about my theory that she was leaving the reality of our family for the dream of her new job. She didn't agree ("Oh, that's what you think..."), but I wanted to plant the idea in her head for the day she would sober up. I hope I didn't tip my hand or give her a reason to be too proud to come back.
Tarheel - It does sound strange that your W would leave such obvious stuff as clothes. My W took all of this. She left her DVDs behind because she doesn't have a DVD player. But what am I, a storage room? I think she forgot the dolls. She once mentioned the books but then no more and I dropped it. It was early and I thought perhaps she would come back. But come on, she spent about 10K (of her parents' money) on appliances and furniture (and clothes...): she's not coming back within a month.
I don't mind the space it takes and it doesn't really bring up memories, except this anxiety about sending them out of not. I'm mostly interested to do it to give her a sense that I'm also separating from her, perhaps giving her second thoughts. And if it doesn't, so what: she's not going to come back because I still have some of her stuff. What are the odds that we won't get back together because I gave her the remaining stuff?
Reading through the
boards, I feel that perhaps what I'm doing through DB is getting my W to trust me again. The trust is very low between us, with the impression that we're out there to annoy and hurt each other. When she
flew off the handle for something minor, it was resolved when I asked her to trust me I'm not trying to hurt her. I could see the relief in her body language and she said it out loud, that it helped.
I'm curious to know what people think about
this email exchange I posted a couple of days earlier. In April, my wife wrote me she needed me to listen to her and that she was suffering. My response was merely polite, borderline cold. It fills me with guilt for not listening to her. How bad is it? Anyone else unearthed such evidence of pattern and past behavior? How can I use this information now?
Hey Mozza and Tarheel,
I am having similar experience with my WAH leaving stuff at my house and claiming he has stuff of mine. He seems to often use the stuff as an excuse to keep in contact.
Sorry but the stuff they are leaving behind gives no indication that they are holding on. It could be that they are too lazy or irritated to come get it. Maybe they forgot about it. I know I have left stuff at boyfriend's homes and now I wonder if they thought the same way you are. Let me tell you, there was no reason I left things there other than I just could not be bothered to go get it. Too much hassle dealing with them, didn't want to see/talk to them again, didn't care about the stuff that much. Figured I could get it "later" and then never did. Don't read into it unless she is obviously using the stuff as a way to keep you on the hook. (like coming by daily or contacting you regularly about the things)
Probably the WAWs are using you as an easy storage option. I say box the things up and put them away out of sight if possible. As more time passes you can let her know the things are in boxes, and eventually you can insist she or someone else picks it up.
Good luck Mozza!
Hugs, Lisa
Pfff... In
2009, my W and I came very, very close to breaking up. A few months after we resolved things, she wrote me an email while I was traveling, saying she had doubts after all. I was completely devasted and the rest of my trip was ruined. I just read the email again and it's The. Exact. Same. [censored]. As. Today.
Extracts:
- I can't lie to myself, I still feel it doesn't gel between us. I don't feel Love, that you're under my skin... That's what I want to feel. I can't live my entire life in a limited emotional range.
- That's what Carrie said to Petrovksy [Sex and the city]: "I'm looking for love. Real love. Ridiculous, inconvenient, can't live without each other love" I'm sure it exists.
- I've a call for freedom, to try living doing exactly what I'm looking for, not sacrificing my dreams.
I think I try too much to be someone I'm not.
- My mom, my dad, you.. Some things have been wonderful on the way here, but now I can no longer live this way without listening to my heart.
- In my head, there's a storm that I'm trying to explain to you. Maybe it doesn't make sens, like many things I say, but I can't ignore it.What personality... disorder is this? Or is it just me who's in the wrong? Is this a sign that I should really just let go and not try to live my life with someone like this? Is she going to meet reality in this separation and come back for good?
There is no way to know. You need to make your changes for you.
Some people have an unrealistic idea of love which means they can't (and may never) see what's under their nose. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help them understand.
I heard a lot of the same things Mozza. Lots of stuff about finding a new path in life and not being where she wants to be. I'm not keeping her from new paths, new projects, she is. But its easier somehow to imagine that we are to blame.