Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 DB coaching session #8There was one resounding point made during this call.
I need to BACK OFF!!She recommended that I go LRT and really need to start doing more GAL activities. There is to be absolutely no texts about "how is your day going", "what did you eat for lunch", etc.
Communications that are initiated by me need to only be about the kids, and anything house-related. Deflect any and all talks about relationship or marriage. Indicate to her (next time she offers) that while I appreciate her compassion, I don't need it from her.
Continue "acts of service", but be careful not to go overboard. Focus more on things that benefit the household, the children, or even her parents.
Glad you had a coaching session! Looking forward to hearing about your progress! Be careful-- it may piss her off at first and she may try to bait you. Did your coach tell you what to say or do if that happens??
Claire, yes. She advised to simply say, "I'm not comfortable talking about this right now" or "I'm not ready to talk about this right now".
So my focus on "backing off" began on Sunday afternoon, after I voiced my displeasure about her leaving to see the OM immediately after I came home from my weekend trip. I didn't call or text her the rest of that day.
I ignored her text on Monday morning. She gave me the cold shoulder Monday evening after she came home in the evening, and I consciously tried not to engage in conversation with her or even be in the same room with her. She went to bed w/out saying goodnight to me or even to our son (which is unusual). I texted her "good night". She didn't respond.
Tuesday morning, she asked me what my work schedule was for that day and said "alright I'm leaving", and left for work. She sent me a few e-mails throughout the day. One was regarding two Sundays from now where she planned to take the kids to the zoo, followed by a visit to her cousin's house. She knows I will be away for four hours in the afternoon, so she planned a day with the kids. Another e-mail was regarding an upcoming halloween party on the 31st hosted by the parents of one of my son's friends. A couple of weeks ago, she said it would be fun if we all went. Now, she says "I won't be available, but I think you should take them there." I didn't ask why she won't be available. The last e-mail was regarding the French language self-learning software (see the last page in the pt.4 thread).
She came home Tuesday night and was MUCH more cordial to me than on Monday. She tried to engage me several times throughout the evening regarding various topics of conversation. I didn't ignore her, but I was very short (but nice) with my responses.
She was very short-tempered towards my daughter last night for some reason. My daughter left her bedroom (where my W was) and went up to me (I was in the bathroom helping my son floss). She was crying and said to me repeatedly "I don't like mama". This is the first time I've ever heard anything like that from my daughter. I know she's only 3 years old, but her reaction was telling, and I KNOW my W heard this. I didn't know exactly what happened to make our daughter cry, so I peered into the room and asked my W, "what happened"? She only responded, "your daughter is sleeping with you tonight". My W was clearly upset. I left it alone.
This morning, she was relatively in a decent mood. She wished the kids a good day at school and even wished me a good day at work (which she never has since my 1st day on the new job). She caught a little bit of a cold so I told her that I bought some Dayquil the other day and it was in the medicine cabinet. As she grabbed her things, I said, "feel better". She replied, "thanks".
Mindsin
A couple of things jump out at me.
1) do you see how your W is really struggling? (The way she called your (plural) 3 yo D, "your" (as in, only you!) was really telling.
2) congrats on some progress of NC. Definitely good work dealing with parenting schedule, and not questioning her plans or whereabouts. And good job not taking the "cold shoulder" bait!
The goodnight text is a bit of that, so be careful of that reaching out/pursuing.
Keep it up. Fight those urges to control what she does or how she feels. Stay in your own sandbox. Her difficulty with your (and her!!) D will be much more powerful when you stay out of it.
Nice to see this forward motion, Mindsink!
1) I'm not sure how much can be read into that because I do the same thing. We both say it when either of our children do something noteworthy (good or bad). As a change, I'm going to consciously change this and will always refer to the them as "our" son or daughter.
2) it's now one day later and I've been sticking to my plan. Last night we were the last ones downstairs and I would normally say good night to her on my way up to bed. I said nothing.
This morning she said "good morning" to me in a very soft, almost flirty voice. I simply replied "hi", then we began to make some small talk. I then said, "I gotta go" and left for work (she knew I had to be in the office early today).
Parental intervention
So my FIL and MIL asked my W to come over to their house tonight for dinner where they plan to sit her down and have a heart-to-heart about the situation and try to "convince" her to consider giving her marriage another chance. At the same time, they're going to voice their displeasure with her "boyfriend" and the ugly circumstances surrounding the affair (spouses, long-distance, possible relocation, children involved, etc.).
Much like I can't control what my W does, I cannot control what her parents do either. If they are determined to have this talk with her, and are convinced that it will help the situation, then I will just let things happen and let the chips fall where they may.
I'm simply going to keep doing what I'm doing. Stay as detached as possible, and focus on everything else BUT what my wife is doing, feeling, thinking.
She sent me an e-mail earlier today outlining plans for this weekend. She wants to spend the weekend as a family, going to the movies tomorrow, and going to the zoo on Sunday.
When I came home from work, we exercised together and shared a couple quick laughs during the routine.
you do know you are gonna get blamed for this right?
And you're certain of this how??
If the in-laws mention your call or anything about the incident last weekend, she will assume you put them up to it somehow. Just prepare for that. I really dont see this going well.
She was involved in the incident last weekend, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You also have to understand her parents, and her relationship with her parents. I don't have any influence on them to be able to put them up to anything, and she knows it.
So anyway -- She came home a little while ago. The visit to her parents lasted about 2.5 hours. On her way out she simply said that she hasn't talked to her parents in a while and wants to catch up.
When she came back, she was in a noticeably cheery mood, considering the fact that she has caught a nasty cold which has developed over the past few days. So however the conversation went, it apparently didn't sour her mood or invoke any further negative thoughts or attitudes towards me.
Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 DB coaching session #8There was one resounding point made during this call.
I need to BACK OFF!!She recommended that I go LRT and really need to start doing more GAL activities. There is to be absolutely no texts about "how is your day going", "what did you eat for lunch", etc.
Communications that are initiated by me need to only be about the kids, and anything house-related. Deflect any and all talks about relationship or marriage. Indicate to her (next time she offers) that while I appreciate her compassion, I don't need it from her.
Continue "acts of service", but be careful not to go overboard. Focus more on things that benefit the household, the children, or even her parents.
I just found your latest thread and all I can say to this^^^ is AMEN!!!
I didnt mean to imply that youd be to blame for what her parents might say, only that it was likely to blow back on you.
I guess not though. Strange for her to come home cheerful.
Glad u didn't get any blowback. In my case (and of friends I know) the spouse "assumes" the LBS encouraged the confrontation/talk. Glad I was wrong. Of course being more positive is one of the 180's I struggle with.
Yesterday was interesting. In the morning, I took my son to soccer. My wife spent the day cleaning the house, doing laundry, and then resting. She took a little nap during the day. While she napped, I picked up on the housework (specifically, the laundry).
Later in the afternoon, I took our son to see "Book of Life". Originally, we were all supposed to go, but our daughter was being punished so she was not allowed to go. However, after our son and I left the house, my W had a change of heart and decided to take her anyways. I accidentally left my wallet at home and had to drive back to get it. As I pulled up to the driveway, my W and daughter were on their way out. I could sense that she did not look at this positively. "Same old same" from her H -- forgetting important things, etc.
We all hopped in her car and went to see the movie. We only missed the previews. The movie contained lots of themes about family, relationships, love, etc. I found myself nodding a lot, especially the when one of the characters spoke about selflessness and another spoke about forgiving. I thought it was a great movie for my W to see. Maybe she'll find inspiration, even a tiny bit, and start to realize the beauty of what she has in her life -- a husband who loves her, two wonderful children, and two parents who would do anything for their family. I cried towards the end of the movie.
After we left the theater, my W had a spontaneous idea. Let's go to a Mexican restaurant for dinner (the movie was set in Mexico)! We had a very nice dinner and we all enjoyed our food. We came home, she did her exercise routine while I bathed the kids and got them ready for bedtime.
She was in a pretty nice mood most of the day, and we engaged in some pleasant conversations. At times, I completely forgot about DB-ing, and just let go (being myself). It was a glimpse of what life used to be like.
All in all, it was a good day.
I'm just winding down towards the end of another "family day". My W has been spending A LOT of time exercising/working out. Yoga class, Barre class, swimming at the gym, a DVD-based workout program. Yesterday morning, she spent 2 hours for her barre class (including travel time) and 1 hour for her DVD program @ home. Today, same thing. So in a span of two days, she spent 6 hours of "alone time" doing her workouts. I don't know if she even realizes (or cares) about the time she's spending away from her kids.
Today, we went to Chinatown. She went to a tea shop to get some good green tea. This was sort of unusual as I rarely if ever see her buy green tea. Instantly, my thoughts turned to the OM and I wondered if she bought the tea for him. She used to do thoughtful things like this for me, but obviously her mind and heart are elsewhere. It's kind of sad. The last thoughtful thing I recall her doing for me was buying those dress shirts for me before I started my new job.
That was about a month ago!
Or, I could just be over-thinking it and the tea is either for herself or her father (this is very possible).
I've suspected that receiving gifts was perhaps a secondary love language for her. Over the years, her gifts to me were always very thoughtful. I know that I'm not supposed to buying gifts for her, but maybe I'll try a little something, just to see what her reaction will be.
I plan on doing something very simple. I will print out a photo of the two kids and put it into a nice frame, so she can bring it to her work. If she won't display a photo of me at work (She didn't at her previous job -- the one she just resigned from last month), then maybe she'll display a photo of her kids, photographed, processed, printed, and framed by her husband.
Today, she was also comfortable being naked in front of me again. I haven't seen her naked in probably a month. She has been closing the bathroom or closet door when she showers and changes.
Today, she was trying on new dresses, and asked me how they looked on her. She had no problem getting naked in front of me, and paraded around the bedroom nude, just like she used to during happier times.
I'm starting to wonder...
Is living together a mistake? She's indicated to me several times before that she never thought it was a good idea. I never asked why. Perhaps it's because she feels pressured or trapped by my mere presence, since she can't freely be this "new happy woman" in front of me.
Perhaps it's because having me around is a stark reminder of the painful feelings and resentment she's felt towards me for years.
The reason why we originally decided to continue living together was for the children's sake. We wanted to give them as normal of a life as possible, even through this tough time. The idea was, if we were to reconcile, we don't want to disrupt their lives. There is no sense in living a divorced life before we're actually divorced. That was then. This is now.
Right now, she's speaking to the OM over the phone, in the room directly above where I'm typing this post on my computer. Her tone is soft, and romantic. She's clearly living out her fantasy. I can't understand what she's saying because she's speaking in Chinese (her 1st language) with the OM, who is also Chinese. I think this is the 1st time I mentioned her nationality. She shares a cultural commonality with the OM that I can never compete with. Frustrating as hell.
Tomorrow, I'll be seeing my in-laws again (1st time since Friday, and before their "heart-to-heart talk" with my W). I'm sure they'll be anxious to tell me about what was said. At the same time, I know that I have to be ready to hear some things that I may not want to hear.
From DR - "Accept some, but not all invitations to spend time together."
I woke up this morning around 5:00 AM. I went downstairs to get some water. My W woke up and went downstairs to start her day (unusually early for her).
Our conversation, as I was pouring water:
W: Hey. You're up early.
Me: Yeah
W: You wanna do P90X with me?
Me: No. I'm tired. I have no energy.
I went right upstairs and said nothing more.
Seems to me she's GAL and involving you. In my book, those are positives.
Of course it's also a great example of Gal that you might follow...b/c you need to GAL more than I can say.
Come to think of it, Can you name 3 GAL things YOU are doing, as of now?
What NEW Behaviors can she see that would make her believe you are a different man than you were before? Can you name 2 or 3 specifics? It helps to see them in writing, so you know how to measure your progress or if you are staying on your chosen path.
And Keep up the good work!
Aside from my new job (and the several after-hours social gatherings as a result, I've engaged in no new GAL activities, unfortunately.
It's just really tough, because my new job requires me to pass several industry certifications within the 1st 12 months of employment, and I've been spending a lot of time studying and prepping for exams. This is just the beginning.
However, I am actively looking to join a local racquet club. I'm on their waiting list.
And have you thought of doing something new with the kids as part as your GAL? Take them out someplace new. Take a new class with them. You really don't consider them much it seems.
I'm so curious about the kids too. Are they both in school full time? Does your wife work outside the home? Are there nannies/babysitters? Who takes the kids to/from school? What is their routine?
For example... last weekend when you were at soccer with the 6 yo, you said your W spent the day cleaning and napping... where was your 3 yo?? What did she do all day while your W was cleaning and napping?
I'm not judging but would love a clearer picture. You do seem reluctant to talk about how the kids fit into your lives. I don't know many parents with two young kids who seem to have so much time to work out, for example. Do you have live-in help?
Both my children are in school. One is in 2nd grade, and the other one is in pre-K, five days/week. My W's parents live close by and they help out in the mornings and afternoons as needed (drop off, pick-up, making meals, etc).
MrBond - As far as doing activities with them as part of GAL, I never really thought of it that way. Monday through Thursday, it's generally a strict routine of homework, bath time, reading, then bed. On non-school days/nights we incorporate them into day-to-day routines (like going grocery shopping, etc). Typical suburban family stuff.
Claire7 - My 3yo daughter was in the house while my W was cleaning/napping. She napped after she got our daughter down for a nap herself.
Not much excitement in the kids lives then. What about soccer games or taking them out to a ball game or an amusement park? How about the zoo or boating, fishing, etc. Do you go out and play ball with your son or tea parties with your D?
For example, before their bedtime I would always make it a point to play with them before bed. Whether it's a board game, video game or just being silly. That enriches the kids' lives more than school and adds to GAL.
One of the things I did when I was S was to take the kids to a new hiking trail every week so they had a new adventure to go through.
I'm just winding down towards the end of another "family day". My W has been spending A LOT of time exercising/working out. Yoga class, Barre class, swimming at the gym, a DVD-based workout program. Yesterday morning, she spent 2 hours for her barre class (including travel time) and 1 hour for her DVD program @ home. Today, same thing.
why are you still monitoring HER activities? Why is this YOUR responsibility? (Oh wait, it's not...)
So in a span of two days, she spent 6 hours of "alone time" doing her workouts. I don't know if she even realizes (or cares) about the time she's spending away from her kids.
Dear Judge Mindsink, can you please stay in your own sandbox instead of judging and criticizing your wife, again...??
Today, we went to Chinatown. She went to a tea shop to get some good green tea. This was sort of unusual as I rarely if ever see her buy green tea. Instantly, my thoughts turned to the OM and I wondered if she bought the tea for him.
Can you NOT obsess or focus on HER (For 2 days? One?) and ONLY worry about your own problems and issues? Can you tell us how YOU are improving as a h or father, and or what YOU are doing to become the man you always wanted to become?"
She used to do thoughtful things like this for me, but obviously her mind and heart are elsewhere. It's kind of sad. The
MORE mind reading, ^^^and always negatively when it comes to her. Where are the changes you are making? This is STILL all about Her and OM--even when he's not in the picture, you re-insert him, ruining family time with your wandering mind but still blaming it all on her.
So, how is YOUR personal work going? Can we hear about that now?
last thoughtful thing I recall her doing for me was buying those dress shirts for me before I started my new job.
That was about a month ago!
Or, I could just be over-thinking it and the tea is either for herself or her father (this is very possible).
You engage in so much negative "stinking thinking" it's hard to keep track and it benefits NO ONE.
Did you ever watch those TED Talk videos I suggested? You need to b/c you are negatively programmed and it's a shame really.
I've suspected that receiving gifts was perhaps a secondary love language for her. Over the years, her gifts to me were always very thoughtful. I know that I'm not supposed to buying gifts for her, but maybe I'll try a little something, just to see what her reaction will be.
^^^ This is the opposite of a 180 OR a kind, loving gesture. IT's only done with an expectation (which she could FAIL b/c even if she is thrilled and grateful, you will find a way to spin it around and view it negatively) AND it's a "testing" mentality, but it's very indicative of where you were before AND still are.
Sadly, Not a great sign.
I plan on doing something very simple. I will print out a photo of the two kids and put it into a nice frame, so she can bring it to her work. If she won't display a photo of me at work (She didn't at her previous job -- the one she just resigned from last month), then maybe she'll display a photo of her kids, photographed, processed, printed, and framed by her husband.
Not much excitement in the kids lives then. What about soccer games or taking them out to a ball game or an amusement park? How about the zoo or boating, fishing, etc. Do you go out and play ball with your son or tea parties with your D?
For example, before their bedtime I would always make it a point to play with them before bed. Whether it's a board game, video game or just being silly. That enriches the kids' lives more than school and adds to GAL.
I don't blame you for getting the impression that there's nothing going on in our kid's lives. Let me detail it further.
My son has soccer every Saturday. He has after-school programs/work-shops on Tuesdays and Fridays. During the summer, we took them frequently to amusement parks (we had season tickets), and went on a couple trips (including Myrtle Beach and Hershey Park). You may recall some of these in my previous posts/threads. Sailboat rides, zoo, aquarium, laser tag, just to name several.
I bought him a bike recently and we go out and I've been teaching him. We regularly play outside. We have a basketball hoop, we play catch, we have soccer nets. My kids get a lot of outdoor time.
...[Everything that was said]...
You're right. I'm shaking my head at myself right now.
Yes, I watched the TED Talk videos you've suggested. Here's an interesting side note -- the other night, my W asked me if I ever heard of TED Talk, and said she subscribes to their e-mail newsletter and suggested that I check them out. Wow.
Mindsin,
Just a word about routines:
My D is 3.5.
I get home at 5. On days she doesn't nap she goes to bed around 7:15. In those 2-ish hours, she "helps" me make dinner, we eat together and talk about our "highs and lows" of the day, we clear the table and play for a bit-- sometimes we color, or have a dance party, or run up and down the hallway, or play Candyland, or one of a million other things.
We start her bedtime routine around 6:30--
I cherish those two hours since I only see her for a short while in the mornings, too.
That is why I'm so curious what your children do, and it is notable to me that you detailed some things your son does (after school, soccer, bike), but I hear very little about your daughter. I'm not judging but I am just noticing it and curious about it. I only have one child so I don't fully understand the dynamics of a house with more kids.... but I wonder if it would help you focus less on your W if you focused more on your kids? Maybe that could be something to think about. ..
The whole point is that your kids are part of your GAL. Look at how much you talked about your W's actions and not a single one of your own and your children's.
Mindsin,
Just a word about routines:
My D is 3.5.
I get home at 5. On days she doesn't nap she goes to bed around 7:15. In those 2-ish hours, she "helps" me make dinner, we eat together and talk about our "highs and lows" of the day, we clear the table and play for a bit-- sometimes we color, or have a dance party, or run up and down the hallway, or play Candyland, or one of a million other things.
We start her bedtime routine around 6:30--
I cherish those two hours since I only see her for a short while in the mornings, too.
That is why I'm so curious what your children do, and it is notable to me that you detailed some things your son does (after school, soccer, bike), but I hear very little about your daughter. I'm not judging but I am just noticing it and curious about it. I only have one child so I don't fully understand the dynamics of a house with more kids.... but I wonder if it would help you focus less on your W if you focused more on your kids? Maybe that could be something to think about. ..
That's amazing that she can go down to sleep that early. My daughter goes to sleep at 9:00 PM on most nights, and even later on weekends.
My son is involved in a lot more activities than my daughter is. She is only 3.5, like yours. Maybe part of it was that my son was our 1st born, and so much focus and attention was put on him from an early age. Now that we have a second child, we're not as focused on her development, sad to say. Sometimes it takes an outsider to point out things.
I have the power to change this, and I will, with or without my W.
Yep. My D is up between 6-7 am, and after a full day of school, no nap, and then playground in the afternoon, she is beat.
On days when my D does take a nap, she goes to bed much later. In fact, I started cutting the afternoon nap (or not worrying about it) when she was staying up until 8:30 or 9:00 pm
So, again, I have to ask-- what does she do all evening? What are those evenings like in your home? Do you all have dinner together? Do the kids play together? Do they watch TV? What time do you get home from work? What time does your wife get home from work?
Family dynamics play a big role in MR. I think it's worth looking into how the dynamics with the kids impact your M.
I'm asking, I guess, because it sounds like maybe there are opportunities to change things up a bit?
Claire - On weekdays, our daughter usually eats dinner at her grandparents', and is home between 6:00 and 7:00. There, she usually plays with her brother (various things), and sometimes watches TV (we try to limit this). Then it's bath time, reading, then sleep.
We rarely have dinner together, except on the weekends. My W and I come home at different times depending on the day. Sometimes, I will wait for her and have a meal prepared for both of us.
And when do YOU actually play with them? My recommendation is that you play with them every day if possible. Get to know them.
I play with them every day, MrBond -- more so on the weekends.
Great! Then say so. Seriously, you mention your children so sparingly in your posts, you would think that you lock them in a closet until it's feeding time.
New GAL activity, dinner with my W, and visiting her old company
This morning, I decided to sign up for ballroom dancing lessons. I wanted to partake in a GAL activity that was completely out of character for me. Ballroom dancing would be it. I e-mailed my W to let her know that I'll be out this Thursday night for a couple of hours. She said "No problem".
I work as an IT consultant, and today I visited her old company (the one she worked at for the majority of her career, and just left a year ago). Her old company is a client of ours and I was there to do some back-end systems work. It was kind of surreal walking through that building, and I passed by the office where my W used to be located. I remembered the days I visited her at the office, and the lunches we had in the cafeteria. I walked by the "mother's room" and thought of all the hours my W spent in there pumping breast milk for our 1st born.
After I left work, I did some light grocery shopping, then picked up the kids and went home.
While at my in-laws' house to get the kids, my FIL spoke to me briefly about his talk with my W last Friday. He basically said that she told him that she is a grown woman and is capable of making her own decisions. She indicated that she wants to figure things out on her own, and doesn't need pressure from them, or me, or anyone else. When my FIL asked her what she has planned for the future, she simply said she doesn't know. She made no mention of divorce.
When I got home, I made dinner, while my kids played upstairs. I texted my W about the package of brussel sprouts on the kitchen counter, and she said that she bought those for me. I said that I will cook the steak and the brussel sprouts for the side veggies. She said she will not be eating them, because she hates brussel sprouts.
I tried a new recipe for the brussel sprouts (pan fried) and I thought they came out great. I cooked the steaks medium rare, just the way my W and I like it. I poured two glasses of red wine (she always has a glass @ dinner), set the table, and she came home shortly afterwards, changed, then sat at the table.
We started talking about various things. She asked me how my day at work went, and I told her about my interesting day. This is the first time she asked me about my day at work since my very 1st day at my new job (which was on Oct 1st). I'm sure much of it was because I was at her old company which was quite an interesting situation in of itself. She asked if I ran into some of her former co-workers, which I'm acquainted to. We then talked about the exercise program that she is doing. I'm a fitness buff, so I know a lot about nutrition, health, etc. She always asks me for my opinion on things related to nutrition and fitness.
She then asked me where I'm going Thursday night. I simply said, "I'll tell you later".
She responded, "Are you going on a date"?
I shook my head and said, "No".
Then she asked, "Where are you going on Sunday"? I previously told her (about 2 weeks ago), that I'm going to an event from 12:30 to 4:30. At the time, she didn't ask me where I was going. She only said "You're free to do whatever you want that day". But now she seems interested. I told her that a friend from work is hosting a football viewing party and a chili cook-off. She seemed quite surprised when I told her that I'll be making my own chili. This is something that she'd typically do, since she makes a killer beef chili. I don't know if she's surprised that I didn't ask her to make it for this Sunday, or if she was surprised that I'm actually going to make it (I'm a lousy cook).
In hindsight, maybe I should have kept Sunday's events from her as well, or maybe I should have just told her I signed up for ballroom dancing lessons. I didn't say because it would typically be something we'd take together. I don't know. She may possibly be thinking why Thursday night is a "secret" but Sunday isn't. Oh well. Too late now.
After dinner, I was playing and being silly with my 3-yo daughter. We held hands and danced together while mom was watching TV with her glass of wine. My son was doing his homework, then playing with his legos. I then brought the two of them upstairs to take a bath. After the bath, my daughter went to read with her mom in her bedroom, while I read with my son in the master bedroom. This has been our typical sleeping arrangement for months.
Nothing terribly exciting to report this morning. She asked me to do a few things while I am working from home today.
1. Send a package full of merchandise to be returned to an online store.
2. Drop off a medical form at the pediatrician's office.
3. Burn some more exercise DVDs for her.
Last weekend, she also asked me to help her transfer her data from her old iPhone to her new iPhone. I told her I'd be glad to help. She hasn't said anything about it since however.
Hi Mindsin-you look like you're doing really well with your GAL activities. Making chili and ballroom dancing both sound like pretty cool skills. How do you like the ballroom dancing? I'm just starting the GAL stuff and was considering that too.
My 1st class is tomorrow, so I'll let you know.
I actually haven't been doing well with GAL. I'm just starting to.
DB Coaching Session #9
Key takeaways:
1. Good work in keeping up with parental responsibilities. Continue to show that I am proactive and engaged in our children's lives at every level (educational, emotional, etc), and keep doing it in a way as not to make it sound like I'm criticizing or questioning my W's parenting in any way.
2. Don't "rattle the cage". Keep on my current path. Don't have any crazy thoughts about threatening the OM, etc. Allow physical separation & time to dissolve the affair.
3. Well done on responses to W regarding Thursday night's ballroom dance class, as well as the follow-up question regarding "going on a date".
4. Way too early to suggest time together. Let's wait til at least Thanksgiving before considering.
5. Since my W seems to mirror the level of interaction I have with her, try engaging her a little more in conversation, but only in small doses, and back off at the 1st sign of her withdrawing. Try to have more conversations where I have opportunities to ask her for her thoughts and opinions.
6. Don't get caught in the friend zone. I still want to show her that I'm attractive and sexy. Keep speaking her love language. Maintain cool and fun persona. Be drama-free. Let drama exist in the OM/OMW world with your W. Show that you want no part of that.
Tonight's just yet another evening when my W comes home late (this time, yoga class). At home, I helped my son with his homework and some extra study assignments, just as I do every night. Then I played tea party with my daughter (inspired by MrBond), which my son later joined in.
My W walked into the house just as I finished getting the kids ready for bed. She finally got her new iPhone working by going to the Apple store, followed by a visit to the AT&T store, and somehow blamed me for her troubles. A year ago, I got her Verizon-branded iPhone to work on an AT&T network by inserting a SIM card.
There was just some small talk in the kitchen about some of the products she's supporting at her job and how many millions of dollars it will take to launch this new product. I listened, and asked a few questions back. She then asked me about the few errands she had requested from me, to which I said "I took care of it all".
She then asked me about how my day went. I worked from home today spending most of the day taking an online training course.
I then asked her about our son's school event on Friday evening. I asked if she'd be able to take him, since I will be quite a distance away that day at a company event, and I won't be sure if I'll make it back in time. She said she can't take him because she won't be around. I asked her what she's doing Friday night. She simply replied, "I have something going on already. I'm already committed. I'll have my dad take him". I let it go at that point and said, "well hopefully I make it back in time".
It's pretty obvious that she will be with the OM (I guess he's flying in Friday afternoon). Since his W will be returning (after a 3-week stay with her brother in another country), I'm assuming he wanted the extra time so he has a chance to spend ample time with both his W and kids, as well as my W.
$1000 says she will tell me she's spending the night on Friday, and another $500 says she'll be spending the night on Saturday as well.
I've already prepared myself mentally for it so it doesn't bother me all that much. I'm going to have a super Friday night and Saturday with my kids, with or without her.
You are getting there, Mindsin! Keep it up.
W pretty much confirmed to me today via e-mail that she will be spending tomorrow with the OM after work, and will spend the night with him and come back late Saturday.
She then asked me what I plan to do with them on Saturday.
I haven't responded, and I'm not sure if I want to.
I asked my FIL and MIL if they'd be able to take my son and daughter to the school event tomorrow evening. My MIL knew the reason why, and said something to the effect of
"I want him (OM) dead!".
My W will be going over their house tonight to have dinner and pick up the kids. I will be at my dance lesson (1st one!). My in-laws said they're going to play dumb and ask about tomorrow evening. They will give her a chance to admit to them that she will be with the OM instead of taking our son to the school evening. After that, who knows. It's out of my hands.
Looking forward to learning some steps tonight!
Remember. Replace OM with a shopping addiction or something else less personal feeling. That has been my mantra and has helped me tremendously.
Good job on GAL.
I hear ya Zeus, except for the fact that separately, she has a shopping addiction too!!! LOL
Dance lessons were great! I was in a room full of people who were very upbeat and full of joy -from the instructors to the students. For one hour, my mind was completely in another place. It was my escape from my marital hell.
It also helped that my dance instructor was very attractive. I loved holding her hands as she was teaching me steps. I will be going again on Saturday.
When I came home, I saw another dress shirt on the bed. My W bought me another shirt. It warmed my heart.
I had a wonderful weekend so far with the kids. Last night I met up with my FIL and my son at his school for the Halloween bash. He had such an awesome time there. Saturday, we slept in and I took them out to brunch, then my son's soccer. After that, I took the kids to my friend's house warming party. They had a blast and so did I. My friend had a billiards table and I played for the first time in years! We were there for about 5 hours then we headed over to my in-laws for some coffee, hot cocoa (for the kids) and some good conversation.
My W didn't call or text me yesterday or today - not even to talk to the kids or even ask how they were doing. She just came home a few minutes ago. She was with the OM since Friday afternoon. I really don't care where they went or what they were doing. I think this is the first time I can truly say that and be honest to myself about it. I feel I'm taking positive steps forward.
Wow Mindsink! So great to hear the shift in your focus! Keep up the great work!!
Thanks Claire. Another good sign that I'm moving in the right direction is the fact that MrBond and 25yearsmlc haven't posted in my thread in a while. I must be doing something right! LOL
Yesterday, I went to a company event for about 5 hours during the day. It was food, football, billiards, and good conversations. My W took the kids to the zoo, followed by a visit to her cousin (the one who knows our sitch). She sent me some photos throughout the day of the kids at the zoo. I responded with simple phrases -- "very nice!", "looks like fun", etc.
I was home first. I did laundry, went grocery shopping, exercised. She came home afterwards very cold to me. Didn't say a word and barely acknowledged my presence. I could easily have let my mind wander and try to take guesses as to the reasons why. But I simply accepted it as par for the course.
My FIL said to me the other day, "You don't want her to be happy all the time, because that means she is happy in her new life (with the OM, etc.). You actually want to see her upset at times, because that means her life is not as rosy as she may have thought it would be after she engaged in the A, decided to leave you, etc."
I knew she was on edge, and the smallest thing may set her off. It did just that around 9:00 PM, when she declared that she's going to go downstairs to watch a little TV and drink coffee -- totally dismissing the fact that she needed to get our 3yo daughter to sleep. I had to work early in the morning and told her about an hour ago that I'm turning in. My son was already asleep. She may have realized this as I reminded her that our daughter needs to be put to bed. As soon as I said that, she snapped back at me and said:
"I'm going downstairs to get my coffee. Is that OK with you?!"
Ah yes, good times.
W is taking the kids to her company's halloween costume day (where employees bring their kids to work, etc).
I'm happy that she is at least making an effort to spend time with the kids.
Monday evening, I went to Costco to do some shopping and she made a list for me. While there, I bought a pair of indoor slippers for her because the ones she has are old and kind of raggy looking.
She came home and saw the new slippers, still in its box. She was surprised, and said, "Oh, you bought slippers for me"?
I replied, "Yeah, the ones you have are kind of..."
I nodded. She finished my sentence and said, "old and worn out"?
She continued, "Yeah, but they're UGGS. They're really comfortable. My mom can wear these new ones (when she comes over the house)"
The rest of the evening was very pleasant. It's almost like she flipped a switch. I may be reading into it too much, but maybe the simple act of buying her slippers (even though she didn't want them) reminded her that I still think of her and perhaps it touched her in some way. Who knows. It's just mind reading anyways.
Yesterday (tuesday) was also a good day. She knew I was driving an hour away to work on a project for one of my company's clients. I also knew that she had a very hectic work day, going on a warehouse tour at her new company, starting at 5:30 AM.
I was so tempted to text her something during the day because I thought of her, and I missed her. I wanted to build on our pleasant interactions the night before, but I stayed the course and did not.
In the afternoon, it was my W who reached out to me, texting, "I am so tired!!!"
I replied back, "I'm tired too. Doing a lot of physical work today. Are you at home? If so, you should rest and maybe take a nap."
She said she actually had to go back to the office and she said she'll pick up the kids this evening.
At 6:45 PM, I texted her, "I'm still here. Maybe a couple more hours until I'm done."
She replied back "OK". Then 15 minutes later, she said, "Where are you?"
I told her where, and gave her details (such as the address). She asked me what I was doing (the scope of my work). I told her and sent her a photo of the new datacenter I was building out.
Later, I told her that I'll be working from home tomorrow (today). She replied, "OK", and then we got into some friendly small talk.
Over the next couple of hours, she asked me a couple times what my ETA was, asked how many people were there with me, suggested I sleep over my parents house (either because she didn't want me driving back late or because she didn't want me to disturb her when I walk in the house).
Whatever the reasons were, I liked the fact that she is actively engaging me and thinking of me.
Baby steps. This is a marathon.
Another good day yesterday. That's three consecutive good days in a row, which feels like a milestone.
W and I cooked dinner together last night. After we ate, I played with the kids while she did her exercise program.
She also asked me, "If you wake up early enough tomorrow, can you make a breakfast sandwich for me?"
I said, "Sure."
As a change of pace, I read and put our daughter to bed while she did the same with our son.
This morning, I did make that breakfast sandwich for her (two eggs w/pepper jack cheese on toasted whole wheat), and she thanked me.
She wore a nice black dress for work and I wanted to compliment her, but I held back. I just wished her a good day at work, and she did likewise.
I've been having a really down day today. My W sent me an e-mail telling me that she will be going away this weekend (leaving Fri, returning Sun afternoon).
I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on what she's doing, but when my kids keep asking me about her, I just get more and more sick and tired of lying and covering from her. And if she chooses to spend less time with the kids, that doesn't affect me and my desire to make sure I'm there for the kids whenever I can be.
I'm just finding this really tough, and sometimes I feel like I need to 'do or say something'. But that may be just my frustration and impatience talking. Nothing good will come out of me challenging my W's priorities as a mother.
I was at my in-laws' house at lunchtime helping out my FIL with a computer issue when I got that e-mail from my W. I vented to him and my MIL a little and I was visibly upset.
They think at this point, I should pick up the phone and call the OM. Threaten him. He feels free to cohort with my W because there is no threat. They feel that over the months, I have given the OM a level of comfort that he should not be feeling. Even if I don't take action, just the presence of the POSSIBILITY of action could be enough to make him take a step back or two. Maybe it will only take a few words here and there. And if he's truly on the fence (between his W and mine), maybe it could be something that could expedite his decision.
It all sounds really bold, and somewhat extreme, but I must say it is very tempting at this point. It seems like a last resort move (and I'm not talking about LRT).
Mindsin ... Just caught up on your sitch
About the OM, I am not sure this would be a good move ... I know there were times I wanted to do the same .. her OM was an athletic trainer, I drove by that gym a few times thinking of goin in there, making a lous scene, possibly clocking him with a dumbell ... I get it. You want him GONE and out of the picture.
Reading your past few days, she is connecting with you, you had a good past few days. The A was and is .. built on lies and deciept .. it will run its course, it will not last .. either your W will call it off .. or the OM will. This WILL NOT LAST ... but if you are the one ... lets say you talk to the dude and he tells your W its over .. guess what ... now not are all the marriage issues your fault ... you just ruined another thing she "enjoyed" .. .this will not help you big picture wise.
My W A lasted ... who knows 4 years-12 months... I have no start date .. but I found out in Jan, they were on and off for months after that, I can tell you this .. things changed when I told her the A was disrespectful to me, our marriage, our family, and her family... you can set a boundary .. but you can not get involved in their relationship .. that must run its short life expectancy.
I had a wonderful weekend so far with the kids. Last night I met up with my FIL and my son at his school for the Halloween bash. He had such an awesome time there. Saturday, we slept in and I took them out to brunch, then my son's soccer. After that, I took the kids to my friend's house warming party. They had a blast and so did I. My friend had a billiards table and I played for the first time in years! We were there for about 5 hours then we headed over to my in-laws for some coffee, hot cocoa (for the kids) and some good conversation.
GOOD STUFF^^^^. Keep it up for THEM and for you...and not anyone else
My W didn't call or text me yesterday or today - not even to talk to the kids or even ask how they were doing. She just came home a few minutes ago. She was with the OM since Friday afternoon.
Not relevant. Leave it alone! Let her work herself out of this in her time....how on earth does your monitoring it help you at all??
I really don't care where they went or what they were doing.
I think this is the first time I can truly say that and be honest to myself about it. I feel I'm taking positive steps forward.
If you don't care about it, then stop talking about it and stop thinking about it.
I'd be a lot more convinced of your honesty about it, if you stopped focusing on it.
Yesterday, I went to a company event for about 5 hours during the day. It was food, football, billiards, and good conversations. My W took the kids to the zoo, followed by a visit to her cousin (the one who knows our sitch). She sent me some photos throughout the day of the kids at the zoo. I responded with simple phrases -- "very nice!", "looks like fun", etc.
I was home first. I did laundry, went grocery shopping, exercised. She came home afterwards very cold to me. Didn't say a word and barely acknowledged my presence. I could easily have let my mind wander and try to take guesses as to the reasons why. But I simply accepted it as par for the course.
My FIL said to me the other day, "You don't want her to be happy all the time, because that means she is happy in her new life (with the OM, etc.). You actually want to see her upset at times, because that means her life is not as rosy as she may have thought it would be after she engaged in the A, decided to leave you, etc."
I knew she was on edge, and the smallest thing may set her off. It did just that around 9:00 PM, when she declared that she's going to go downstairs to watch a little TV and drink coffee -- totally dismissing the fact that she needed to get our 3yo daughter to sleep. I had to work early in the morning and told her about an hour ago that I'm turning in. My son was already asleep. She may have realized this as I reminded her that our daughter needs to be put to bed. As soon as I said that, she snapped back at me and said:
"I'm going downstairs to get my coffee. Is that OK with you?!"
Ah yes, good times.
Been there, done/seen that^^. But You handled it well.
W is taking the kids to her company's halloween costume day (where employees bring their kids to work, etc).
I'm happy that she is at least making an effort to spend time with the kids.
If only you had left OUT that last parting shot....it's so see through.
If you don't care about it, then stop talking about it and stop thinking about it.
I'd be a lot more convinced of your honesty about it, if you stopped focusing on it.
Maybe that's my next step. Let me make it clear -- I still care about the fact that she's spending time with the OM (and particularly if it's in lieu of spending time with the kids).
I just don't care about where she's going and what she's doing.
Good to see you back in my thread.
If only you had left OUT that last parting shot....it's so see through.
It wasn't meant as a parting shot. There was no sarcasm or snark in that statement. I truly and genuinely was happy to see that she was making an effort.
I've been having a really down day today. My W sent me an e-mail telling me that she will be going away this weekend (leaving Fri, returning Sun afternoon).
I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on what she's doing, but when my kids keep asking me about her, I just get more and more sick and tired of lying and covering from her. And if she chooses to spend less time with the kids, that doesn't affect me and my desire to make sure I'm there for the kids whenever I can be.
Protect your kids and if that happens to "help" her, so what? How easy or hard do you want it to be for her to choose her family?
Don't make her come home with her tail between her legs/ she never did that to you when you took your 'escorts" out. (I hate the euphemism you use for your adultery and the contrasting way you describe her behavior b/c it's a double standard). But I'll move on....
I'm just finding this really tough, and sometimes I feel like I need to [b]'do or say something'. But that may be just my frustration and impatience talking. Nothing good will come out of me challenging my W's priorities as a mother.
[/b]
Your anger and wounded ego/pride are fueling your frustration. Control them better and be the better choice. She still does not believe in the "new you" yet, so until if and when she does, this will sukk.
You need to cope with that.
How? BY GAL and Detaching and being fully present for your children.
I was at my in-laws' house at lunchtime helping out my FIL with a computer issue when I got that e-mail from my W. I vented to him and my MIL a little and I was visibly upset.
Really bad idea for you to do that. Do they know all about YOUR past infidelities and the money issues?
They think at this point, I should pick up the phone and call the OM. Threaten him. He feels free to cohort with my W because there is no threat. They feel that over the months, I have given the OM a level of comfort that he should not be feeling. Even if I don't take action, just the presence of the POSSIBILITY of action could be enough to make him take a step back or two. Maybe it will only take a few words here and there. And if he's truly on the fence (between his W and mine), maybe it could be something that could expedite his decision.
STOP THIS^^^.....
It all sounds really bold, and somewhat extreme, but I must say it is very tempting at this point. It seems like a last resort move (and I'm not talking about LRT).
It's a desperate act and its' stupid in my opinion. You are slowly building your wife's confidence in the new calm confident kind YOU, but now your ego wants to have a temper tantrum and do some weird "anger filled" self righteous garbage and that's tempting to you?
Your growth is more shallow than I realized. What has changed in you? I forget.
If only you had left OUT that last parting shot....it's so see through.
It wasn't meant as a parting shot. There was no sarcasm or snark in that statement. I truly and genuinely was happy to see that she was making an effort.
So what? It's still an insult b/c it implies that her making an effort is somehow unusual for HER.
DIg a little deeper...
Really bad idea for you to do that. Do they know all about YOUR past infidelities and the money issues?
They absolutely know. My W revealed it to them early on (before BD). A few days later, I visited them and apologized to them for the pain I caused their daughter and my failure as a husband.
Now (months later), they've been supporting me emotionally and helping me through this difficult time, and have made it clear that they want to help in whatever way they can to keep us intact. Sometimes they say or do things that they think are helping (like suggesting I threaten the OM, and nearly convincing me that it's a good move).
It's a desperate act and its' stupid in my opinion. You are slowly building your wife's confidence in the new calm confident kind YOU, but now your ego wants to have a temper tantrum and do some weird "anger filled" self righteous garbage and that's tempting to you?
If it breaks the A, then absolutely, it's tempting. The arguments were very convincing, but in the end I tend to agree with you.
It sounded like a good idea at the time.
W just sent me a text message saying that she loved the grilled chicken I made her for lunch, and said I'm becoming a good cook.
I simply replied, "Thanks".
25 - What is your advice on how to deal with my W's e-mail regarding her weekend away? Do I simply ignore it? Say nothing? That's what my gut tells me.
Another part of me tells me that I need to at least address the unfairness of her simply going away at a whim's notice, leaving me at home with the kids. I was thinking maybe I should finally have that talk with her about a parenting schedule, and that weekend plans (away from the family) needs to be coordinated.
Thoughts?
25 - What is your advice on how to deal with my W's e-mail regarding her weekend away? Do I simply ignore it? Say nothing? That's what my gut tells me.
Another part of me tells me that I need to at least address the unfairness of her simply going away at a whim's notice, leaving me at home with the kids. I was thinking maybe I should finally have that talk with her about a parenting schedule, and that weekend plans (away from the family) needs to be coordinated.
Thoughts?
I have 2 competing thoughts. ON one hand, I'd normally say "ignore it".
That might be the DB answer too. But OTOH, you say you want a schedule so you can plan your own life and the kids. (The unfairness is pointless to mention. She has a scorecard of her own and you are way behind on that. Don't assume for a minute that your inlaws apparent willingness to forgive you for sins of the past, means a thing to HER. THEY were not humiliated; she was. They were not betrayed, she was. They were not abandoned for another woman, she was. Marital assets were used for your "escorts" and not theirs...They were not in a marriage counselor's office crying b/c of your betrayals, again...she was.
Moving on....
You might have made a good point about the need to plan and coordinate, but
I'm wondering how much planning this really needs now, however. It's not as if she did not tell you in advance, in fact she did tell you and now you are upset.
So decide if what upsets you is OM existence, which I think it is, versus "the need to plan". We know what it is b/c you did not mention a need to plan, you only mentioned how unfair she is to you. That's not persuasive to me b/c again, you overlook your own past in which you behaved reprehensibly for years, and now she's done something painful to you for what? A year? Less?.....
What planning needs really exist? The need to plan vacations sounds legit, the need to plan around holidays also.
Also unlike some situations, this Affair cannot last indefinitely. Distance and time and HIS family...
Much as you want to be THE reason she quits it, you might not be, or you may not be the only reason. But so what, as long as she does the work needed to be married, in time?
I would not be the one to rush to end this b/c the chances of backfiring are higher than you realize. I say that b/c I think it took a he11 of a lot for her to want out in the first place...and we both know you helped get her to that place.
Remember this is a marathon and not a sprint. Take your ego out of this and stay the course.
give yourself an internal time line of "X date" and then reassess when X comes along. No need to decide now, what you do then.
But know that the limbo you are in, is not eternal.
You're absolutely right about the scorecard. We both have ours, and it matters not who's "winning", because she'll never think I am.
Where I get tripped up is when I start doing comparisons which then leads to thoughts of "Well I never did that (when out with escorts)". I remember doing a lot of that in the beginning (I even posted it in my very 1st thread back in June).
That ^ helps no one, certainly not me.
My rule of thumb is if you're feeling any negative emotions (resentment, pain, impatience, fear, embarrassment) DO NOTHING. Wait. Let some time pass. You need to be your best self at all times. You can't afford to slip in verbal interaction and that is tough. When it comes to planned interactions and written communication there is no excuse. Be very patient.
25s right, the limbo doesn't last forever. I was living wih a friend for 4.5 months and giving all my income to STBX to support the household while she was with OM a lot of the time. I had my reasons. I didn't react emotionally, or to control. At points I felt I was being a rug or an enabler, and there was some of that. But now I've files he separation and am taking action. While I'm glad I am, I hvmave NO regrets about the timelines. Ill always be able to look back and know I did what the situation demanded of me based on her actions, not my emotions. And 4 months in the scheme of this is trivial.
So while it may feel like you're waiti forever when you're in pain, I seriously doubt you're puttin up with too much for too long here. In fact, a good measure is until you have accepted your sitch and can handle things in a detached and compassionate way, it's probably good to be still, process, and work on yourself.
There are exceptions but you get the idea.
This is right-on by Zues:
"My rule of thumb is if you're feeling any negative emotions (resentment, pain, impatience, fear, embarrassment) DO NOTHING. Wait. Let some time pass. You need to be your best self at all times. You can't afford to slip in verbal interaction and that is tough. When it comes to planned interactions and written communication there is no excuse. Be very patient."
You have less to lose by waiting until you have yourself centered than you do by reacting when you're emotional. You need to respond, not react.
---(G)GGG
Yes, you are all right on.
Right now, the interaction between my W and I is the best it's been probably since she came back from her 9 day trip in late sept/early oct.
Yes, you are all right on.
Right now, the interaction between my W and I is the best it's been probably since she came back from her 9 day trip in late sept/early oct.
Then why do you insist on sabotaging it? Do you notice that when things are good BUT not drama filled, you seem to want to do something odd to wreck it?
I have to wonder what that's about. I know she's with OM but that's not new. What is new is that it's a lot harder for her to see him, AND things with you are getting better.
For most people here, that's a great thing; for you, not so much.
Remember to act in accordance with your stated goal (= reconciliation) and
NOT how you feel at the moment.
I don't know where she's going and I automatically ASSUMED that she's buying a plane ticket using family money to fly 2000 miles to see the OM. This was purely based on my W telling me (before the OM moved) that he will be flying back every two weeks. Well, this is only one week. Maybe he's the one who is flying back here again, or maybe they're rendezvousing somewhere in between.
Maybe it was that added reality that hit me hard today. I don't know. But like you said, she's still in a R with the OM. That's not new.
And she just came home a few minutes ago. What did she bring back with her? Three more shirts for me. I'm living in bizarro world.
I don't know where she's going and
I automatically ASSUMED THE REST OF THIS PARAGRAPH
that she's buying a plane ticket using family money to fly 2000 miles to see the OM. This was purely based on my W telling me (before the OM moved) that he will be flying back every two weeks. Well, this is only one week. Maybe he's the one who is flying back here again, or maybe they're rendezvousing somewhere in between.
Maybe it was that added reality that hit me hard today. I don't know. But like you said, she's still in a R with the OM. That's not new.
And she just came home a few minutes ago. What did she bring back with her? Three more shirts for me.
to ANY OTHER MAN HERE, that ^^^ would be SUCH HAPPY news!! 
For YOU, however, she's "Strange" and you live in a "bizzaro world".
.I'm living in bizarro world.
Try an attitude of gratitude. It surely cannot hurt. It'd be a 180 I suspect as well.
Try an attitude of gratitude. It surely cannot hurt. It'd be a 180 I suspect as well.
I definitely show gratitude whenever she does things like this for me.
Change of heart?
One of my biggest worries was my W's desire to relocate to Nashville, TN (the same place where the OM lives currently). She has indicated this to me very early on, and even suggested at one point to fly down there with me so we could check out the city and neighborhood. At that time, she also indicated that she wants our son to finish 2nd grade here, so the plan to relocate would be a gradual one (about 1 year). She also said she planned to sell our house in the spring of 2015. She also told her parents about these plans, and she and the OM even offered to buy a house with a detached suite so they can live together, help out with the kids, etc.
My FIL and my W were driving together yesterday to meet a realtor (some paperwork for his rental apartment) and my FIL commented to her that if she doesn't move to Nashville, that he wants to keep his apartment. My W replied back, "Who said I'm moving to Nashville? If you want, you can move there. I'm not moving there."
Whatever you do, do NOT remind her of her previous comments.
Don't force her to "renounce" anything or you might end up forcing her to cement those decisions!
Meanwhile, I'm crossing my fingers for you!
Sent her an e-mail today
"Thank you again for the shirts. I appreciate it. Wherever you're going this weekend, please be safe. I will make sure the kids have an enjoyable weekend."
Her reply:
"You are welcome. Send me pictures of them."
This afternoon, I also passed an exam to earn one of my industry-related certifications. I sent my W a text to let her know.
Me: I just passed my first certification exam!
W: That's amazing!!!
W: We can go celebrate as a family next weekend.
I Hope you are happy about that - b/c I sure am!
Congrats and yes, it's a huge positive that SHE said what she said. Savor this Mindsinks, and for goodness sake, stop the obsessive mind reading about OM.
If I were you, I would not have mentioned "wherever she is going to be safe" b/c to me (and I believe to her as well), it comes off as yet another remark you are making to show that you suspect/"know" she is with him and regardless you are SO NOBLE that hey, she should feel guilty...and face it, that IS the result and outcome you want.
Which means you are still manipulating her to control the outcome.
You are usually and mostly on the right track lately, but if you could truly STFU about OM and recognize when you are pretending to be quiet but not, it would help you finesse this completely.
You need NOT tell your wife how YOU will "make sure the kids are happy" (as if 'someone has to')
NOR how you HOPE she is safe....I cannot believe you don't recognize your own motives when they are transparent. I'm convinced you are resenting her, and it SHOWS...
You do this more than you care to admit, but what concerns me is that you deny what seems obvious . Yes, I am saying you said it b/c you are annoyed. But I'm betting you want to deny that to me.
You want to say NO, it's "ALL b/c I hope she is safe and NOT b/c I hope she feels torn and guilt ridden"...but to that, I'd say "I don't think so."
(See how much time we save by mind reading?)
Here are a few questions I wanted to ask you before.
Can you recall ever feeling guilt ridden or ashamed of yourself when you hired the prostitutes? How did you rationalize doing it again and again?
Did your wife's tears or anger ever affect you -- and if so, how?
Was it her threat to divorce you that finally got you to stop? What was it?
what was Your parent's marriage like and,
how was Forgiveness modeled in your childhood?
Thanks and again, congrats! I know how hard it can be to focus and achieve in times or turmoil so your powers of concentration are commendable!
I Hope you are happy about that - b/c I sure am!
Congrats and yes, it's a huge positive that SHE said what she said. Savor this Mindsinks, and for goodness sake, stop the obsessive mind reading about OM.
If I were you, I would not have mentioned "wherever she is going to be safe" b/c to me (and I believe to her as well), it comes off as yet another remark you are making to show that you suspect/"know" she is with him and regardless you are SO NOBLE that hey, she should feel guilty...and face it, that IS the result and outcome you want.
Which means you are still manipulating her to control the outcome.
You are usually and mostly on the right track lately, but if you could truly STFU about OM and recognize when you are pretending to be quiet but not, it would help you finesse this completely.
You need NOT tell your wife how YOU will "make sure the kids are happy" (as if 'someone has to')
NOR how you HOPE she is safe....I cannot believe you don't recognize your own motives when they are transparent. I'm convinced you are resenting her, and it SHOWS...
You do this more than you care to admit, but what concerns me is that you deny what seems obvious . Yes, I am saying you said it b/c you are annoyed. But I'm betting you want to deny that to me.
You want to say NO, it's "ALL b/c I hope she is safe and NOT b/c I hope she feels torn and guilt ridden"...but to that, I'd say "I don't think so."
(See how much time we save by mind reading?)
I absolutely am resenting her, but I'm holding strong because there is a respository of self-blame that I use to fuel the internal justification of everything my W has been doing for the past 4+ months. That respository is slowly but surely being emptied. I understand that a lot can get lost in translation with written vs spoken language, and I can certainly understand your interpretation of how my words may have been perceived by my W. Here is where my head was at with regard to the above.
1. I did not want to simply ignore the e-mail. If my W tells me she's going away for a weekend, then I feel that I should at least acknowledge it. I didn't want to come off as "giving her the cold shoulder". The question then becomes, "HOW do I acknowledge it"? I felt that the part about wishing her a safe trip (wherever she is going) was a way for me to express to her that, "Hey, I still care for your well-being, and I do worry about you when you are away; but at the same time, I recognize that you don't want to tell me where you're going or who you will be with, so I will respect that. If these words are interpreted the way you say they were, then it's just that -- an interpretation. If my W and I weren't in this situation, then my words would have appeared perfectly "innocent", and that's exactly how I wrote it.
2. By telling her that I will make sure the kids have an enjoyable weekend, that was my way of telling her that I will always step up as a parent, regardless of what is going on between us. I was letting her know that the two things in this world that are the most precious to her will always be in good hands and safe with me.
That is how my words were intended. Whether or not she those words the way I intended, or took them the way you think she would have, is unknown.
Here are a few questions I wanted to ask you before.
Can you recall ever feeling guilt ridden or ashamed of yourself when you hired the prostitutes? How did you rationalize doing it again and again?
A little bit, but I never beat myself over it until 2011. I rationalized it in different ways. "What she doesn't know won't hurt her". "Men are simply wired this way". "I always come home to my W". "I don't want to go to my grave not having sampled as many different women (sexually) as possible and living out all the fantasies that my W will never be able to fulfil". "My W doesn't like sex, so this is her fault".
Did your wife's tears or anger ever affect you -- and if so, how?
In the beginning, it was simply a feeling of getting caught. It felt no different than when I was a teenager and my mom caught me with a Playboy magazine. It didn't truly hit me until that last time in 2011 when I felt that she was going to leave me, and she wrote me many lengthy e-mails questioning the meaning of the life she has been living with me, the house we live in, even the children we had together.
Was it her threat to divorce you that finally got you to stop? What was it?
That certainly helped. But honestly speaking, I still had urges to continue my ways. It was sheer will power to keep me away from that lifestyle. It wasn't until 2012 when I had my health scare that I made a commitment to change for good.
what was Your parent's marriage like and, how was Forgiveness modeled in your childhood?
I'm not sure. They were always just mom and dad to me. They were very passive to each other (with regard to showing affection, etc). They were both hard workers, owned their own business, and worked long hours. My grandmother (who lived with us since birth) was just as much of a mother figure to my brother and I (if not more so) as my actual mom.
How was forgiveness modeled? Again, I'm not sure how to answer that.
Thanks and again, congrats! I know how hard it can be to focus and achieve in times or turmoil so your powers of concentration are commendable!
Thank you very much!
Interesting thing happened last night. It was about 11:00PM. Kids were asleep, I woke up to get a drink of water (W was sleeping downstairs on the family room couch). Surprisingly, she wasn't there, but the TV was left on. The TV's screen was mysteriously dark grey and flashing. Very strange.
I then noticed lights peeking through the bottom of the door to the study/home office. I am in there many hours of the day (especially on days I work from home) and I could have easily left the lights on by mistake.
I walk in, and there is my W, sitting on the chair in that room, with her white iPhone headphones on, looking at the screen. Her face looked blushed, and almost looked like she was crying (or just got done crying). She was startled, and said something to me like, "Oh, I was just sitting here listening to music and stuff". I then told her about the flashing TV, and asked what happened to it. She said she didn't know.
I wasn't sure what to make of it. It's not unusual for her to be speaking to the OM late at night, but her reaction was unusual, as the last time I "caught" her talking, she was very angry at the fact that I "barged" on her, reacting very defensively with a "I can talk to him anywhere, anytime" attitude.
This morning, she was very friendly towards me. Wished me a good day at work and left.
I told her that I was going out this evening (I have ballroom dance lessons - which I haven't told her about). I told her what time I'll be back and asked if she can pick up the kids. She simply replied, "Sure".
Last night, I went to dance lessons again. It was really great and I had a lot of fun.
I went grocery shopping afterwards (my W's request) to pick up a few small items and return some movie rentals. When I got home, my W was in the study on the computer. I briefly peered inside to say hello and to tell her that my work schedule changed tomorrow (this meant I would be taking the kids to my in-laws in the morning, which is a change in plans).
Shen then asked me, "So where were did you go tonight?"
I replied, "The same place I went to two thursdays ago."
She would remember that as the time I told her "I'll tell you later" when she asked where I was going.
Nothing more was said about it.
Throughout the evening, she was very pleasant, humming random melodies to herself as she loaded the dishwasher, did things around the kitchen, etc.
Under normal circumstances, this would not be unusual. But it is definitely unusual behavior from her (since the days following BD).
Another talk with her parents
My MIL revealed to me today some details of their conversation last Thursday. My MIL told her how the OM is not good for her, and that she shouldn't continue in the affair, etc, etc.
As my MIL explained to me, my wife's response was not defensive at all. She said that she had a very "defeated" attitude. She kept nodding her head and saying "I know, I know".
And what's the point of posting that? You still concentrate every post on what your W does or doesn't do.
Because my W's behavior has changed. It's noteworthy because it shows that the change in my own attitude may be indirectly having an effect on her. "Do what works", right? Well I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.
That's extreme mindreading on your part. You don't know if the reason why she didn't answer her mom was because of your efforts. You're still concentrating so much on what your W does.
Where is the mind reading (extreme or otherwise)? I never said her reaction to her mom was a result of my efforts. I simply said that her attitude towards me has changed for the better, and that MAY be due to my changes.
" I simply said that her attitude towards me has changed for the better, and that MAY be due to my changes."
Exactly. And that's mindreading. You don't know for sure, so anything else is purely guesswork. Mindreading. This sets you up for all sorts of disappointment. She could have just been nice to you because she had good sex with the OM for all you know.
Again, stop concentrating on her. You describe EVERY little action she does when should be describing your GAL and your interactions with your children the same way.
You and I have different definitions of "mind reading" then. I'm simply describing facts and events. I am not adding any spin, or giving reasons as to why my W said or did certain things, or what she meant by saying or doing "X, Y, and Z".
And, what else do I have to go on (if not my W's words and actions)? How do I know if what I'm doing is working? According to DR, I need to constantly monitor results. Well I'm posting those results here. How can I do that w/out making note of changes in my W's behavior (good or bad)?
For example, one of the short-term goals I have listed since my last DB coaching session was to have my W show interest and curiosity to my job/career, as well as sharing things that are going on in her own job/career. I have BOTH of those boxes checked now. That's progress, IMO.
In my day-to-day life, I focus WAY MORE on my children, my job, and the other things I have going on in my life. ON THIS FORUM, my posts will more often than not be focused on my W, because after all, she is the centerpiece of the crisis situation that I'm in right now.
And btw, I don't describe every little action from my W. I am simply posting only what I believe are noteworthy conversations and interactions that occurred. How is that different than what 99% of everyone else is doing on their own threads?
Sigh. The fact that you added the "MAY be due to my changes" part is what makes it mindreading. That shouldn't have even crossed your mind at all.
Yes you have to monitor positive interactions but you take it to the extreme.
"How is that different than what 99% of everyone else is doing on their own threads?"
Have you really read the books? They document what's going on, sure, but you will also notice that many people are advised to stop looking at every action their spouse does.
It would be different if you were to change some behavior and then document it's result. Prove that there is a correlation between the two. But right now all you do is list everything she does. For someone who works with people as a job, you seem to have a difficult time understanding what others are communicating to you.
Sigh. The fact that you added the "MAY be due to my changes" part is what makes it mindreading. That shouldn't have even crossed your mind at all.
"May be", and "Is" are two different things. One is mindreading. The other is wondering and acknowledging that "true" and "false" are equally likely.
Yes you have to monitor positive interactions but you take it to the extreme.
That's your opinion, and I disagree.
Have you really read the books? They document what's going on, sure, but you will also notice that many people are advised to stop looking at every action their spouse does.
Yes I have read DR. And again, I don't note every action that my spouse does, just the ones that I feel are worth mentioning.
It would be different if you were to change some behavior and then document it's result. Prove that there is a correlation between the two. But right now all you do is list everything she does.
I did change my behavior, since my last DB coaching session. I've been documenting its results since the beginning of this thread. And again, I am not listing EVERYTHING she does. NOT...EVEN...CLOSE.
For someone who works with people as a job, you seem to have a difficult time understanding what others are communicating to you.
Ever think that perhaps it's YOU who has a difficult time effectively communicating with others? They have seminars for that.
"Ever think that perhaps it's YOU who has a difficult time effectively communicating with others? "
Not really. I've helped many M's with the same advice and method of communicating with no problems.
"They have seminars for that."
Good to know. Let me know which ones you've been to that have helped.
Not really. I've helped many M's with the same advice and method of communicating with no problems.
You've used the same self-righteous, condescending tone to help others? That's impressive. Good for you. Not many people can basically be a jerk to strangers and get them to listen, so kudos to you. You have a talent. Unfortunately, that tone doesn't jive well with me, so please bow out of my threads from now on. Thanks.
No they weren't condescending. You made a remark, I remarked back. I don't see where it was condescending. Go back and read what was written. All I said was that you should not mindread and explained why it was mindreading and then you continued to debate back rather than trying to read what I wrote.
In fact, you were the one who posted a snarky remark first and I responded in kind. You really shouldn't try to dish out what you can't take yourself.
Snarky remarks?
"For someone who works with people as a job, you seem to have a difficult time understanding what others are communicating to you."
^ That was you starting with the snarky remarks, no?
And don't worry, I can take anything you can dish at me. I've taken, and delivered a LOT more than that.
You've helped me in the beginning, and I appreciate that, but
but at this time, I don't feel you're helping. It seems you're just getting on my case just to be a jerk. Ergo, my request for you to bow out of this thread still applies.
Hey Mindsin... I understand where you're coming from about snarky remarks and such. I get hammered hard on my thread too. Even so, and saying this as another guy trying to find his way through this hard learning experience... take this time to practice taking a step back and really read the comments. A lot of us guys here are really clueless... double for me... and don't hear the valuable information buried in words that sound like snark. If any of us ever really listened like this before... maybe we wouldn't be here now. We're lucky to have this board...
^^^ I'm glad you said that, HP, because i was thinking the same thing. I often refused to hear my H's complaints because they weren't wrapped in a neat, sensitive bow. Hmmm. Juat because something stings doesn't mean we shouldn't be open to hearing it.
I come to this forum to get a new perspective. I've been pushed hard to see myself and interactions with my H in a new way. At the very least, we have to be able to say, huh... I hadn't thought of it that way. Let me let that marinate a bit, especially if it stings.
Otherwise, if you just want people to "yes" you all the time... you're probably not going to actually make any changes. To change means facing some difficult truths and dealing with discomfort.
Let that marinate, Mindsin. Everyone is rooting for you.
"For someone who works with people as a job, you seem to have a difficult time understanding what others are communicating to you."
FWIW, this wasn't meant to be a snarky remark. It was an observation and one that I and others mentioned before. It was meant as a way to relate what you do for a living and try to apply it to yourself. It's not easy, but if you're going to take every bit of commentary on your thread as some kind of personal attack rather than looking within, then you won't be successful.
HPoirot and claire7 get it.
^^^ it's interesting to me that this statement **could** be interpreted as snarky, if one chose to.. or could be interpreted as a neutral (or even compassionate) observation, if one chose to.
One of my H's biggest complaints in our M was that I never gave him (his words, actually) the benefit of the doubt. I often interpreted what he said in a negative way, even when he said he didn't intend it that way...
Let it marinate. Let go of the defensiveness, and the need to be "right". Just because someone didn't interpret what you said the way you intended it doesn't mean THEY are WRONG. (It doesn't mean you are wrong either, btw.)
Does that make sense?
(MrBond... I am so flattered and take your words as a HUGE compliment! A major update to my thread coming later tonight, which I could SURELY use your insight on!!)
Bond - For the record, my job is not to work with people. I just happen to work with people, in a company, as do most Americans who work for a living.
I don't take every bit of commentary on my thread as a personal attack -- only yours for some reason. Who the F knows. Maybe I'm just having an off day. Maybe you pushed my buttons at the wrong time. Maybe I have a lot of pent-up anger and it's directed at you.
I don't know. All I know is that I feel that I'm making good progress, and my W's attitude has made a dramatic shift lately. For the first time in forever (sorry for the Frozen reference), I finally feel like I'm heading in the right direction, and it's not just for a day or two. It's been more or less steady progress for three weeks. I feel like the combination of my focus (as advised by my DB coach), my great new job, my dance lessons, my level of fitness which I've never been able to achieve before, has really put me in a great place.