Hello DB board. Before I start I just want to mention I have been reading the posts in these forums for 6 weeks now. I have read so many similar stories to mine that I have obtained much of what I needed to get started with DB. I have bought the DB book and am a couple chapters into it, but I find the insight on this board so succinct as the advice is directed towards situations that are similar to my own. BIG thanks for that.
Here is the short version of my story, hard to believe I know, but it's been 6 weeks of beating.
We were married in April 2006. Two boys, now 3 and 5. Change of my vocation in Oct. 2013, now making about 60% of previously but sending out resumes, etc. This made her the clear bread winner, for now. She has good job with health insurance, etc. The work I do does not.
The bomb drop/land mine was discovered by accident about Sept. 3, 2014. Found excessive texting on phone bill (3000 to one #), did some detective work and confronted her. She said he was just a friend at work (OM - married 18 years, with two teenage daughters), nothing sexual, no physical contact. My investigation suggested otherwise, she finally admitted some texts discussed sex, and then finally admitted they had kissed a few times. Supposedly has been going on since July (2 months at that point). Figured there was more, but didn't have evidence at that point. She refused to let me see the texts in her phone, though I had seen them elsewhere already. She deleted most on a daily basis anyhow.
She said she'd end the A the next day and said she didn't love him. Said the stress from finances and my lousy fathering made her need an escape. Both cried and I forgave her right there, told her she could stay because of the boys. Talked to pastor two days later.
She said I didn't help with the kids enough, didn't listen to her concerns around my job change, and I was a lousy husband and father for last 2-3 years. I just listened and took the beating, though I did insist her reaction was beyond anything I did or didn't do. She had been complaining to everyone but me; family, friends, co-workers. We decided to keep the A between the two of us, though my best man knew the dirty details because I had to talk to someone (he's in a different country right now). She knows I talked to him.
I knew she was concerned with finances, but if we stayed on budget (her budget) we'd be putting money in the bank with both our current incomes. However, she was on a spending binge for last 9 months, progressively worse in last 3 months. Otherwise, I was completely oblivious to what was going on with her. Oblivious.
So I start to do more around the house, though not much more. After a day or two all I was getting from her was how I was now smothering her. So I backed off. In the end, the only thing I've really changed as a father is getting up a little earlier to make the boys breakfast while she gets ready for work. I take them to school/daycare every morning already, so not a big change but I can see it does help. I also took up more of the grocery shopping.
So for all the "how I suck" talk, there wasn't much more she wanted me to do without smothering. It was about this point that I started to realize her perception/story and reality were quite a different thing. According to my perception anyhow. This was a much deeper issue than it appeared. Boy was I onto something.
At this point, about 10 days later, we were trying new things to make the home life easier with the kids and their behaviors, etc. We had gone on a couple dates, but she still seemed distant.
Anyhow, we were discussing budgets again and she said she'd work on spending less. She has done better, but not great so far. She was still
talking about our future and getting out of debt completely this time, etc.
I can't remember what caused me to snoop a few days later, around Sept 15 (yes, snooping is BAD, but I had to know). Without giving up my sources, I find out they are still communicating and sneaking off for make-out sessions at work. Still at it, it had just gone underground. Worse than ever with the details. Damn it.
I can't take that too long, maybe a day. I bring up the fact that I know something is still going on. She denies and says it's over, repeatedly. I say I know they are still at it and ask if co-workers would have noticed what was happening. Then she wants to know who I'm talking to at her work. I explain that an affair at work is bound to end up with a co-worker snitching, but it was her fault, not any co-worker. I ask if she plans to leave me for him and she says no. She said he had no plans to leave his wife either. I asked if she had an end game in mind since they were both married and just having a good time. She said she'd never leave her boys and then literally threw up her hands and said "Fine, I'll just live in an unhappy marriage forever." As I went to walk out of the room I calmly said "It doesn't have to be unhappy." A few minutes later I peek back in the room and tell her calmly "just to be clear, I didn't threaten to take the boys away." I just wanted her to realize I could get custody, long-shot though it may be.
I had an appointment to go see a D attorney prior to that conversation, but later on that same day. I meet the attorney, a divorced female, and she listens to my story. After discussing everything she says, with your two boys, you need to go find a good marriage counselor, you DO NOT want a D. Strange but true.
So pastor recommends a counselor, a male, but I ask my W on the off chance she would go whether she'd prefer female or male. Of course she chose female, not knowing I had a male name in hand, but in his group there was a female so I sign myself up. I tell her she's welcome to go but no obligation. I was going no matter what, and same price either way. Of course the cost was her concern. I said if she didn't continue an affair I wouldn't need so much counseling.
She actually went to the first session as a couple, though reluctantly, and rehashed how I sucked. At this point I had a better retort, but still just let her talk. My complaint was how she told everyone but me how much I sucked for 9 months. She agreed to meet for a one on one the next week. She refused to go to second pastor meeting the following day. I did go, need all the help I can get.
Went to a friends wedding the weekend after the first session. There she pounded 12-15 beers in 6 hours, 4-5 was her usual max previously. Her and another woman there propositioned me for a 3-way of sorts. The sort where I sit in the corner and they go to town. I could see in W eyes that if I bluffed she would have called it and I would have been corner bound. Girl on girl was never something she brought up before. If our R wasn't in the crapper, maybe I'd have played along, but I know a guy who did once and it ended poorly, so it was best to graciously decline. She did however get the woman's cell number and the number of another guy at the wedding. Nice.
Snooped a little (I know, I know) and found her discussing girl on girl with OM. He encouraged her to do whatever made her feel good, and blah blah blah. I found she was searching for lesb!an p0rn on her computer in her Google toolbar, innocently I swear. Again, normally that might do something for me, but this is unlike her former self.
At this point I had already started some of 180 tactics that are discussed here. Minimal physical contact/hugging, very rare ILY's, minimal R talk except at counselor. Have started going out with friends at least one evening per week. Get the boys in bed then go out for a couple hours. Minimal alcohol now due to loudmouth soup issues. Man, there are things I want to say, but now I just leave the room.
I f'd up one night at her birthday dinner where her mom (MIL) bought several new dresses for her to wear to work. I said Jen and OM will surely like those. MIL picked up on the comment and asked about it. W told her a few days later some half truths about situation. MIL said she should pursue A and I was a deadbeat dad/husband. Nice.
The night of the blurt I got home and decided to take up running to vent. Now I run, pushups, etc. After BD I lost 25 pounds in 20 days. Now weigh what I did when age 23, 14 years ago.
She went to her follow-up session and lied to counselor about it being over, blah blah blah. Said she was thinking of a trial separation, which MIL encouraged. Counselor backed her off that, for now I guess. (Never mentioned to me) She hasn't been to a session since. I've been to 2 more couple sessions, alone, since then. Snooped again (I know I know) and she lied to OM about what she told counselor. basically she is lying to everyone, including herself I'm sure.
I have come to the conclusion that I can only work on me and the boys. I try to focus all energy on that and it is difficult to ignore ongoing A.
I've taken on more work in my spare time, manual labor is good for the soul. Throwing resume at anything that I sort of qualify for that's full-time with benefits. I will never be this dependent on a single individual, other than myself, ever again. F that.
W and I started alternating nights to run/walk alone, but I decided I needed to take boys with me. So I did and she decided to join us, most of the time. Have been on 3-4 walks as a family in last 10 days or so. Did a camp out with boys last weekend with tent in backyard, campfire, smores, hamburgers. W joined us on 2 hikes, one down by the river that included a picnic. Sunday we (me, W and boys) spent an hour or so at a park with another hike. All my ideas.
This week had one family walk and a couple with me and boys. PTA meeting with all of us. House has recently developed foundation issues (ironically I think) so that's another stressor.
Spent an afternoon this week with my FIL working over my resume and such. I figure he's the only one who might see things from my point of view, though I'm sure my MIL has not told him about the A and such. Met with an old friend who's in a similar situation on that evening (Wednesday, 2 days ago) and his advice was "LET IT GO", a little more each day, referring to the ongoing A.
Got home from that visit. Was in bed and W came to bed. At this point she still denies anything is going on. Says it is over and she acts as though there's nothing out of the usual going on. I know there is of course, at least within the last week, last I checked. I'm becoming numb to the details I learn of A from "checking the wind" on occasion. W laid down next to me, facing me. I decided that if anyone was going to F her it should be me. I started rubbing her back, asked if that was OK. She said yes. Worked down to her legs, lets say. Asked if that was Ok, she said yes. So this proceeds to a good time for all.
In my mind, my wife from before is dead and gone. I've mourned her loss. I looked at her as my live in nanny who is dating the OM, so I just F'd the OM's girlfriend. Take that, makes me laugh. Call it a backslide, but as messed up as her brain is she may believe her own lies that it's over. I'm beyond confused.
The next night, after discussions of foundation repair (great for marital relations) I offered a foot massage for stress relief (and said 'no strings attached'). During foot rub I mentioned counseling that's scheduled for next day. As usual said it was completely up to her if she wanted to go. She asked about cost, but followed quickly that she didn't mind, was just curious when insurance kicks in to help. Assuming from that response she wasn't going, I proceed to tell her one of my topics to discuss, that I intend to get stable job with benefits and never rely on anybody else for support in the future, regardless if it's her or someone else. I will get out of debt and never go back, again with her or without her, that's my plan.
I told her I felt there was still something going on with OM. I can't divulge my sources, so I call it just a feeling. She says it's over and she doesn't know how to convince me of that. Now, she has a week long work conference coming up Oct. 21 to 26 in Chicago. I've seen that her and OM are booked on the same flight there and back. I ask if he's on her flight, she says no. After almost wringing her foot off, we discussed a few other lighter topics and I left her with a 'good night'.
I went to bed a little later. We are woken up by my S5 about 5:00am. He goes back to bed. She asks if I'm awake. I say yes. She asks if I want to snuggle. Now, she never snuggles. After sex one gets about 10 minutes before she's done with that. And on any given night she doesn't want to be touched by my toe as she tries to sleep. So for her to ask if I wanted to snuggle/spoon is beyond odd. I didn't turn it down of course, because I'm just a man, so we lay there for about an hour until S3 comes in and wants mom to make breakfast. Even then she tried to stay in snuggle mode, surprisingly.
I'm beyond spun around at this point. Today we talked, mostly her, and I look her in the eyes like I'm supposed to while she talks. Discussed replacing flooring in the house after foundation repair, etc. For the most part I try to be in another room from her, to give space. When she went to bed, as I am writing this, she comes to me, gives long hug and then she offers the kiss and I accept.
So, WTF? All opinions are welcome. I feel I fell off the wagon with the whole sex thing, but what can I say, I'm just a man. Did I mention the work conference in 10 days? That will be hell week. I do have a few friends that know of hell week and offered to buy lunch or dinner during it. Damn it all.
Do I ever show her the transcripts of what I actually know is going on? I assume not, that I need to detach and let it go, but for being oblivious I'm not a complete fool. Thanks in advance. . .
Sorry for the long initial post, but that is the short version that still catches major details. Since posting that a couple days ago more has changed.
I think I want to confront her with the info I have, but if I do then she knows I'm on to her, and then my way to verify in the future is squashed. At this point I can't trust without a back channel verification, so I don't want to lose that. It just drives me crazy, she doesn't understand I don't ask a question unless I already know the answer. Other than the foot rub night, I keep R talk to a minimum, and even that was minimal. Since I feel I can't confront, I just try to "let it go" since I can't stop what she does or says. I assume confrontation would get a poor reaction from her at this point anyhow.
That said, with the way she was acting somewhat different the last 5 days or so, I checked the wind (snooped) and the few messages I saw were pretty harmless. He mentioned "I miss you" at the end of a message and she made no specific mention of it in her benign response. I still don't trust anything, her next message could have been plans for sex the next day, I don't know. I can't bring myself to snoop any further. I'm tired of the anxiety, loss of appetite, and sleeplessness it brings when it's bad news.
She's said it was over for 5-6 weeks before this, when do I know she's really done and wants to reconcile without snooping? I hate snooping, but I'll do it. Please someone tell me I shouldn't. Thanks.
Hi,
I am sorry for the situation you are in. The best advice I can give you is to speak with a Divorce Busting Coach today. A coach can also speak with you specifically about snooping and confronting her with what you know. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best guidance on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Sorry that you find yourself on here. How much of the DB book have you actually read? It sounds like you are belittling the issues you had and concentrate just on the A.
Your sitch sounds just like mine. Two young kids, me oblivious to anything wrong, about same ages, an EA/PA w/coworker, huge personality changes, ugh. Only difference is that my wife left the house right after the BD and now won't talk to me or see me even for kid swaps.
Thanks Christi. I will consider a call since my local counselor is out for the next two weeks due to a surgery she's having.
That's a fair question and observation mrbond. That was the condensed version so I left out all the ways I suck, and there are many. Too many to type from my phone. Since these threads are a journal of sorts I will put together the things I was told or self identified and get back.
I went and looked and I've made it through chapter 4 of the book. Honestly the changing myself has been my focus as I realized through counseling and reflection that I can only change me. I also know she's noticed some changes as she's made comments about them. I guess I still dwell on the A because I don't see the two of us working on the problems in the R while it continues underground. Additionally, I don't want to miss that transition if/when she actually ends it because I've grown tired of the stories that have all been lies before.
More to your subtle point, I plan to get back to reading in my alone time. Thanks for the reminder to look at the big picture.
As to my shortcomings, and there were many, so I'll try to lump and then give specific examples.
She said she felt things started downhill after S3 was born. I didn't help out enough in general. Came home late from work so she felt like a single parent in the evenings. Of course we also had the lack of going out on any regular basis after second son was born.
About a year ago I had a change of vocation as mentioned in the first novel above. She saw it as me quiting, I saw it as me being run off. (Long story, for the next post maybe, related to complaint above) Best I can tell this was the tipping point for her, which is why it was mentioned in the novel. It was a major stressor for her and I misjudged the scope of stress.
More recently I would pass on some events she planned with her and the kids. She would plan a trip to, lets say, the zoo. She'd ask if I wanted to go, but she'd say that her mom would go instead if I had other things to do. Typically I would pass thinking she and her mom enjoyed time with the kids together. Another misjudgement on my part. There were other similar events like lake trips, camping, and lunch gatherings with friends/kids that I did not attend.
More on this in the next post.
So regarding my shortcomings, when I first heard them in the first session talking to pastor, they seemed fair enough. After reflecting on them it appeared to me to be selective memory or just seeing the negative side of the situation.
To begin with:
The previous job that caused me to work late and often miss dinner with the family was one I'd taken with the idea that my W could then stay at home with kids, as SHE wanted it. We planned our life/budget around the idea of one income, including the house purchase, so she had the choice to stay home. I was hired to become the general manager after a few years, and so I worked like that. One day in early 2013 boss came to me and said he was ready to hand the Co. over to me as GM, however, he said his GM would not be someone who stayed home with sick kids, that my wife should be doing that. Other comments were made along those lines, that I was his to use 24/7. I had one week to consider.
W and I discussed. She no longer wanted to stay home and, honestly, had gotten raises since then that put her within $2000 or so of what I would be making as GM. We decided I should decline since I already missed too much with the kids. I told her, if I turn down the position you must understand he could let me go right there that day. So I go in, tell him I don't want the position anymore.
At the time he kept me on in sales, but it was downhill from there. Talking to some of the long term guys in the warehouse they explained his preferred method was to make life miserable so the employee would quit, to avoid paying unemployment or severance. Eventually we came to an agreement that I'd leave to do my own thing. He suggested December, I said October. So I did choose to leave earlier than possible, but in the end he told me to leave at the end of August and paid me through October. I was done there regardless, so I didn't see it as quitting.
One thing I did take away from the couple times we were together for counseling was the idea that "perception is reality". Even if I look (or looked) at all my issues and could explain them here logically, that doesn't mean that's how she "perceived" the issues at the time, or even now. Apparently that can be dangerous.
That all said, I still work part-time while job hunting for a full-time gig that pays more than my part-time small business. I even do home remodeling work on free days for extra cash.
The finances/budget are doable on paper, putting money in the bank if we (she) wasn't spending $1000 - $2000 over budget per month. Just misc. stuff, I don't even have a boat to show for it. When I realized we were draining our savings, instead of putting money into it, I took over budget duty. That was July 2014. The spending was another indicator I missed, but when I saw it I told a friend I thought it looked like a kamikaze mission. It appears I may have been correct. She saw finances as a problem, and by over spending made it one.
Regarding the lack of participation with the kids, my part-time gig gave me more time to be around the kids this last year, doing doctor appointments, t-ball, swimming lessons, and other things so my wife didn't have to leave her job to do them. She still cooks dinner, but she says she likes to do it, so I believe her.
That is why I say now, after she said one problem was not helping enough with the kids/house chores, I found the only thing to change was feeding them breakfast. Everywhere else I tried to help I got the "you are smothering me" response, so I backed off.
Regarding the outings with her and the kids, I obviously did things but didn't feel I had to be there all the time. She never listed all the things I had done for the kids, just the ones where I opted out. There were a few things I didn't do, for sure, but the way I saw it her mom wanted to go if I didn't, so enjoy the kids with your mother. Seemed normal to me. Just one part of why I was oblivious to the problems.
She said I opted out of a camping trip, leaving her to take the kids camping without me. Yes, I did that too. She took them camping twice, first time I went but left a day early because a friend was in town for a visit prior to moving out of the country for 3 years. The second trip I didn't attend because it was poorly planned and from the website I knew they couldn't camp overnight.
I didn't go but said she was free to enjoy the disaster. About 7 that night I get a text that says she was heading home, didn't even set up the tent. W said that several people (part of their group) were drunk and fighting in front of the kids. I considered an 'I told you so', but instead I told her I would set up the tent in the backyard, build a fire, and get fixins for smores.
So, the 2nd camping trip I did attend as well, just not how it was planned. And for the record, the people who stayed had to sleep on their boats because overnight camping was NOT ALLOWED. I didn't even say I told you so. She mentioned the camping trips at both group MC sessions we had, that is until she stopped attending the group sessions with me, ironically.
She went to the lake with friends, twice plus the 2 camping trips. The first I went along. The second I skipped to paint a house for extra money. I felt I was sacrificing a good time to earn extra money we needed for her misc spending. Apparently I missed that one too.
So, yes, without any sarcasm I definitely had shortcomings and missed things I should have caught. Said things that could be hurtful even if meant jokingly. As I find or realize those things now, I tell her I don't want to start a big discussion about our R, but I wanted to apologize for X, Y, or Z. Usually she says they were no big deal, or knew they were jokes, but I insist on making amends as I find them. I have my 180's and am working them.
I am very far from a perfect father or husband. However, I'd still take my shortcomings over her lies and ongoing affair 99 out of 100 times. Bad attitude, maybe, but that's how I see it. Back to DB.
Oh, and without snooping, I snooped. Appears she is still at it. Apparently this last week has all been cake eating. Knowing the A is ongoing bothers me but not like I expected. It's the continued denial that I think bothers me most. I've told her, I can handle anything she might say, just be honest (though I don't need the dirty details). If you want to leave, GO. My only request or boundary, "Just be honest". I harp on the boys all the time about how they are not to lie to me. I discipline more for the lie than the thing they lie about. She sits in the same room, straight faced, and hears me say that to them. People are crazy.
GAL, Let it Go. So tough some days.
To review the events of this last week:
Starting with last Wednesday (8 days ago) the W started acting different to me. As mentioned before we had sex that night, followed by the next night with her lying about taking the same flight as OM to her conference, which I knew she was before I asked. Since it had been booked months ago, I allowed myself to believe she lied to avoid an unnecessary issue. They could have ended it but still have to be on the same flight. That was my illogical logic. Same night she said she didn't know how she could prove it was over. Maybe I will put together a list of ways and see if she'll fake her way through that.
Since then she offered to snuggle, even though that's not her thing. This week we started hugging again. I still don't go to hug her, but I will hug back if she approaches. I kiss if she moves to kiss me first. I started to return ILYs when she said it first. Even the "I really do love you" I got last night. Sunday night (3 days ago) neither of us could fall asleep, so she asked if I wanted to 'fool around' as we call it. You know, to help us sleep. Hoping we had turned a corner, and wanting to believe that, I said yes. Good time had by all. Then I cooked dinner Monday night and had it ready when she got home. Last night, after my trust but verify moment, not so much.
This all goes back to my original reason for feeling the need to post on here, how do you know when a W denying an affair has actually ended the affair and is willing to reconcile, without some sort of verification? Obviously any advice is appreciated because I'm just spun around after last week.
I got fooled again because I wanted to believe her change in actions, towards me anyhow. Now I have to take a step back and not accept her advances. Cake eating, dang it.
Blndsid
My situation is very similar to your situation. W is in A, I have the evidence but she denies it. She has been much "warmer" over the past two months which has caused me from time to time to think she has ended it. But I have found evidence more recently to the contrary. I think she is waffling and not sure what to do. Or perhaps the guilt of ending her M for the A is causing her to rethink her position. Your W is probably in the same boat. Being nice to you allows her to take the A underground AND keep you in limbo. No need for her to make a decision if both the OM and you are in play.
The advice given to me has been the obvious ones from DB:
- detach, detach, detach
- GAL...it helps with detaching
- STFU...don't talk about the R; she knows you know about the A, she knows that you ideally want to work on your M, so no need to say this again.
- Focus on you...what improvements can you make? How can you make yourself better? How can you be the husband only a fool would leave?
How will you know when she ended the A? She will tell you.
As mentioned already, my W refuses to admit to the A. My DB coach believes that once my W admits to the A, she knows she will need to end it. Therefore, by denying it, she can pretend that everyone is still in the dark. Perhaps your W has the same "logic".
Further, when you spur her advances, don't say "as long as the OM is in the picture, we are not doing this." That will just cause her to get angry and spew hatred and more lies. "Fake a headache", say you are not in the mood/tired, switch positions in bed when she wants to snuggle (but not in an abrupt, d*ckish way), etc.
As Starsky has said to me, why would your W end it when she has two men meeting her physical and emotional needs?
THANK YOU. It's like I know that I know what to do, but after the roller coaster of the last 10 days I don't even know which way is up.
The first 'go round' last Wednesday was after I went out with an old friend from high school. Part of GAL, I go out at least one night a week after putting kids to bed, just an hour or two. My W knows my usual friends are pretty harmless, so he was different.
However, the day or so before we met up I told her about my friend from HS and how nuts he was in HS. Got expelled at prom, drugs, booze, gun. A real class act. Looking back that might have been a reaction to GAL that made her come to bed that way.
Up to that point I didn't hug, kiss, or say ILY's for a couple weeks. Sure, I'd give a friendly hug or pat on the back to acknowledge her existence, but I was pretty short about it. Avoid being in the same room unless it's the living room to watch kids watch TV.
Back to HS friend. . . now he doesn't even drink, except water with lemon. Apparently he discovered it was toxic to him. Told my wife we went to a bar for 2 drinks. However, we just met at his house to discuss my sitch because his W had an A their first year of marriage, 6 years ago. They're still married, not happily, but luckily no kids. His advice was "Let It Go", referring to the A. Let it go a little more each day. It was working well as part of my denial during the last week too.
Last night she had asked "for my thoughts" about going with coworkers to a bar on Thursday night. I told her she was an adult and could do what she wants, regardless of my thoughts. This ticked her off and then she said she text a coworker and they weren't going anymore, to forget about it.
I had been with her on the last co-worker trip, 4 weeks ago, and it involved the same bar. We were together but one of us had to get the boys from her mother. To show what a good dad I am, I offered to picked them up and put them to bed so she could stay with coworkers (OM wasn't there, of course). I left at 8, told her if she stayed to 10, home at 10:30, that was fair (she's sort of self grounded herself because of the affair that she ended, thus she asked for "my thoughts" this time). She ended up getting home at 12:30, pretty well loaded. Her phone died about 10:30, convenient.
So at bedtime last night I brought it up. Told her that last time we had agreed on a time to be home and she ignored me and did what she was going to do. I told her I realized I'd done things to cause her to lose all respect for me, and that is understandable. I proceed to tell her that she is going to do whatever she is going to do and I can't do anything about it. I can only change me, and work with the boys, and that is what I'm doing. I'm changing me. W will have to change herself.
She said she'd noticed changes around the house but that it was going to take her more time to work on things. I repeated what I said before, I can only change me, you are going to do whatever it is you want to do. I have accepted that.
This morning she sent an odd text regarding how I implied she doesn't work when at the office, but I graciously apologized if she misread something I said last night. She also changed her pw to one of my snooping methods, which is for the best (it notified me of the change on my phone for some reason, I didn't check it). I don't need that during next week when W and OM will be at a 6 day conference together.
I was not in a good mood when she got home last night as I figured I had to go back to my previous routine. No kissing or ILY's. I let her hug me this morning, but I wasn't going to go to her. I could tell she was quite bothered by my 180 last night and this morning. I assume I have no option but to revert back to what I was doing, even though I said nothing specific about my distance or change in affection last night.
GAL, Let It Go. PMA. I know, but it's tough today. Getting better as the day goes by though.
Do NOT tell her what you know, and what you don't know. Say only "I know all about you and ______, and it needs to stop, immediately. It's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family." By not telling her what you know specifically, she will have to assume you know EVERYTHING.
Tell her nothing more than "I do not want a divorce, but make no mistake -- I am not willing to live in an open marriage. End your affair and come back and work on the marriage with me, and you will find that I am ready and willing to work on all issues, including my own, as I've already been doing as you know."
Then end the convo, and remain distant and mysterious. The phrases "I'm not sure how I feel about that" or "Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make" are your friends.
More later, gotta go to an appt . . . how you handle this is a CRITICAL step. Make sure you post here first without doing anything drastic or getting into any deep convos with her!!!
Starsky
I think I'm going to attempt this conversation since we're within about 24 hours of me switching back to detaching. Tell her I thought we'd turned a corner but I was presented with information that the affair is still going on. Then lead into this dialog. Going out tonight so I thought I'd bring it up in 20 minutes or so, after the kids are in bed, then leave to go out as an end to the conversation. I highly doubt she will break down and confess. I expect resentment. Wonder how she'd act if the shoe was on the other foot?
Thoughts?
This can't possibli go wrong.
It is done. Kept pretty good with the script but tailored it to fit. I'll add a post later to describe how it went.
I have no idea how this plays out, but this is the best I've felt in 6 weeks. It was the right words in the right tone. I feel like I took the control back when I said I wasn't afraid of divorce like I was 6 weeks ago. I realize this is a short timeframe compared to many other stories, but the constant lying about how it was ended was too much. At least now we have an understanding of what's going on.
Thank you Starsky, wherever you are!!
Way to go B. Let us know how that plays out. I'm definitely following your thread as our sitches are similar.
Yep, I'll be coming back to hear, as well.
Glad you found a good footing to rest on. It's awesome when you say what you mean and feel like you presented it powerfully!
So about last night. I started the conversation talking about the last couple weeks, how things had seemed to change between us in a good way, that'd we'd turned a corner. Spending more time as a family and more physical contact, etc.
I then told her that recently it had come to my attention that her and OM were in fact still carrying on an affair. She cut me off and asked how I came to that conclusion. I asked her do I have to have pictures? You know what you're doing and what you're planning for the conference next week. She said she didn't know what I was talking about.
I then mentioned again about her flight itinerary, how W and OM names were on the same flights there and back. She denied. I told her it could all be found online. She then admitted that yes, they were on the same flights there and back. That's about where she stopped talking. I told her I hadn't asked her a question in the last 6 weeks that I didn't know the answer before I asked. Every lie you told, I knew as you told it.
I continued with the script best I could remember it, about it being disrespectful. That I did not want a divorce, but I wouldn't stand for an open marriage. I said I was not afraid of divorce like I was 6 weeks ago, even though all my counselors had told me I didn't want a divorce with a 3 and 5 yr old. Told her you have to end it now and work with me on our marriage. I would work with her and had already started to make my own changes. I told her I was never going back to how I was, never. I told her I had made changes but apparently she had not made the changes she said she'd made. I could only change me, and she could only change her. Then I told her we both have things to think about.
I paused on occasion to to see if she wanted to say anything, but nothing beyond the "how do you knows". I then told her whenever she wanted to be truthful about everything that I'd be willing to talk to her about it, but only if she wanted to talk truthfully about it.
Paused again to give her a chance, but nothing, a little tearing up. I stood up and walked towards our front door hallway and stopped. I said the only reason I'm still in this after 6 weeks of straight lying is because of the boys. I repeated that I was not afraid of divorce like I had been before. Then I said when I have the conversation fifteen years from now, when the boys ask about what happened with our marriage, that I would be able to tell them the truth. And that I'm confident they would understand why dad did what dad did. That was the only part where my voice cracked a little, regarding the boys.
I paused to give her a chance to talk, but she just looked away with tears in her eyes. I repeated that we both have things to think about. I told her goodnight and I'd be back in a couple hours, then I left.
When I got home, about 11:30, and got in bed she was awake and asked me how my evening was. Told her it was good. She asked who I was with and I told her names, including the females. Gave her a few details and the conversation ended.
This morning W got up first and did morning routine as usual. Except today she got right on the boys breakfast before I could get up. Our S3 typically comes in our room after he wakes up and crawls in bed with me for a few minutes, so I was tied up at the moment, but figured it was fine if I skipped a day.
She didn't say anything to me except good morning after I said it first. She just hustled to get the boys ready, so I just got myself ready for work. I had a full day planned for a change. As she was leaving she told S5 that W or grandma would be picking him up from school. I hadn't told her I wouldn't be back in time to pick him up as usual, but she was correct that he needed someone else to get him. Then she left, not sure if she even said bye to me.
About three minutes after leaving I get a text from W. It read: "Yes, me or my mom will pick S5 up. Also, you can check your emails or whatever way you are tracking me and you'll see that I told him last night that it is time for us to walk away from each other. Believe me, don't believe me. Whichever."
I replied: "OK about S5. I said I was willing to talk about us once you decided to be truthful about everything going on." and then right away: "I stand by that and hope we can talk like that in the near future. Whenever you are ready."
She replied: "Well that's what's going on. I ended it last night. It wasn't easy and I am sad but it's done. Not ready to talk beyond that at this point."
I replied: "I understand, it will take time. Take your time. I want to believe, and that will take me time too.
After that, nothing else until we got home. I did have some concern that the pick up comment suggested she might stay with the boys at her mom's house. But that was mind reading and didn't happen, though I would have let her do it, for the weekend at least. I could use a day off from DB.
Wow, thats pretty amazing. You handled that well! I will definitely leave it to the vets to advise what you should do next.
I got home a few minutes before she did with the boys. Talk was small at first but as she started dinner I asked if she wanted a beer. At first she did not, but talked herself into one. So I got one for her and myself. We talked small talk about our day during dinner. She said her coworkers were going to a bar tonight since they didn't last night. I told her I didn't have plans and that she should go.
We talked small talk in the living room later and told W my brother was having people over to watch the Aggies beat the hell outta 'bama. She had plans with her mom in the morning but thought she'd be done about 2:30, so she said she'd go along and we'll take the boys. We shall see.
So, now W is out and I'm catching up on this stuff. As she left I can admit the trust burn in the gut was acting up, but I sucked it up and told her to be safe and have a good time. Give her space, she's going to do what she's going to do.
Tonight she did stay to put the kids in bed before leaving, which she didn't do the last several times she went out with coworkers (which we all know now was basically code for the A). Maybe my leading by example will pay off. I guess we'll find out if she gets home at 11:30 or 2:30 as before. She has sent me a couple minor texts since she's been out. I've replied with minor replies.
I'm going to do push-ups, sit-ups, and the like to burn some nervous energy. I'm glad I did what I did last night but it doesn't really change anything. I still can't believe a word she says and I guess I keep working on detach, GAL, etc. until one day she maybe decides to set things right. If not, well I'm not afraid of divorce like I was 6 weeks ago.
Since Wednesday I have found I'd like to have her removed from all my family pictures. I see her in them and it makes me sick when I think of what she is actually capable of and then shows no visible remorse. I guess that will pass, or not, but I'll survive.
1foot2, yeah, I guess I keep on with the detach, GAL, and all. No pressure, give her space. But because I don't trust her at all, not one bit, I have no idea what she could do that will make me believe it is over or that she hasn't just moved onto another dude, or woman.
She told me one of the people she invited to go out with tonight was the girl from the wedding, the one after some GoG action. Ugh, but I can't do anything about it and, honestly, that's the lessor of two evils right now.
It's almost funny at this point. I almost want to see how F'd up things can get before I have no choice but to punch out. I have lots of true stories in my life that people think I made up. How'd I end up here?
Yeah, so she got home after 2:00 am but before 3:30 this morning. Not sure when since I was sleeping on and off, but she did sleep on the sofa. I guess to not wake me up. I decided to look at phone numbers she was texting last night (bad idea) and it included the OM cell number and another guy I think I mentioned before, that she got his number at that wedding a couple weeks back.
Funny thing she was texting OM and new OM at the same time. Bad news she stopped texting anyone after 1:20 or so, then texted new OM at 3:00 and he replied once immediately. Great. Only thing that allows me to be in denial is that maybe her battery died on her phone. But getting home around 3 when bars close at 2, makes me think we're still on the downward slide.
This has inspired me once again to stop snooping. It is killer and I know it, but I feel I need to know what's up. However, it DESTROYS any PMA I may have and leaves me in a pissed off funk for at least 24 hrs. No more Snooping (until next time).
Otherwise she was her usual two faced self today. Went to bros house to watch an awful football game. She was friendly to me and mom and everyone the whole time. Talking about fixing up our house and staying on our budget, all while my PMA was trashed. I did give her a one armed hug while on a sofa over there. Then she told me my legs were getting skinny and I should include squats and such in my workouts. She also went shopping today and offered to buy me new shorts since my old ones are too big. I wonder if she thinks my exercising is the reason for weight loss, or just in denial that I lost 25 lbs in 20 days after initial A discovery. She's a sick person.
We got home and she fed kids and I bathed them. Somewhere in there she came to me and gave me a long hug, and I hugged back. Then she sat with the boys while I updated another resume. Then she put them to bed.
As I sat here writing the first part of this post she came in and laid on the bed with me. She was acting in a similar fashion as two weeks ago when we had sex, so I kept my hands off.
We talked a little small talk, including my resumes and I told her I was going to nail one of these recent positions I'd applied for. That I needed a job with benefits since I'd apparently leaned on her too much this last year. Reiterated the need for benefits (in case of D, but No mention of D of course) and said I'd start wherever I could and work up.
She talked of watching a movie together in bed and I said I would, but before we could decide she said she wouldn't stay awake through it. I hadn't run in two days so I decided to end our laying down time by going for a run. Now I'm back and finishing my post for the day.
It is so hard to keep a PMA. Snooping is stupid. I was in a bad place most of today, but running and working on getting more work helps with that. I feel my biggest 180 would be reliable employment. Even if I'd be making less than my small business does, her perception of stability is a check direct deposited the same day every month. I'll keep working extra jobs like I have been on top of the small biz. Every bit helps.
Oh, and trying to detach is a struggle in my sitch. I actually felt better with her on the sofa last night, regardless of why she chose to sleep there.
Hi blndsid, snooping? I have done more damage to myself bc of my snooping than anyone else can imagine. Here is what LoisB wrote to me (I'll use your name for better effect) about snooping that was very helpful:
"Stop IT!!! blndsid, Stop, stop, stop!!!!
Push it away. Push ALL that NEGATIVITY away. It's not helping.
Stay in YOUR Lane...Life is better there, NO drama, NO more rejection. It's bad enough, don't make it worse. Guard your heart.
Imagine yourself at 5 years old, all cute and cuddly and loving and trusting and innocent. Imagine that lil blndsid.
Now, imagine throwing that cute lil guy in with the lions at the zoo. Just pitching him in there like a toy for the lions to play with. That's what you did when you snooped. You fed that cute lil guy to the lions.
Don't do that!"
I like your signature tag, but you already know - "people are crazy", so don't do crazy things like snooping yourself. Good luck.
Thanks wet. The last two snoops were both one snoop too far. 2nd to last I had thought (hoped) she'd come around which she hadn't (although it did get me back to DB tactics as I should have been). The last snoop suggested she's moving on to OM2 (and possible OM3 being an ex-boyfriend in the texting that night).
I'm not sure how so many suffer through these situations and keep taking a beating. I know I'm already dead, like in band of brothers, but I find myself wanting to hope otherwise and just keep my head down.
Then today we spend time at a pumpkin patch as a family, trying to keep PMA with the kids, while all the time she has no problem acting like nothing's wrong and all are happy. Meanwhile I figure she'd probably f the goat if it sent her some sext messages first. There's some mental poison and PMA at work for you, in case you wondered if snooping was good or bad for your mind.
Otherwise took boys to church today. W didn't go so she wouldn't have to sweat through the service (rimshot). She leaves for her week long conference on Tuesday. Woo hoo. Honestly, it will probably be good to have her out of the house for a week. I'm finding it hard to look at her. Still want her out of my family photos.
So the last 4 years we have done Halloween at my mom's neighborhood with all my brothers and their kids. This year W wants to do it with the friends from the wedding a few weeks back, and trick-or-treat there too (rimshot). For those keeping track, OM2 lives next door to the newlywed couple. Yea for our happy family of 4.
So yeah, I'm avoiding the snooping and working on a PMA this week.
Today was rather interesting. We had an exchange of emails that started with her sending me her itinerary for her flights and her comment like: you already have this, but just in case. I f'd up and replied that I was tired of the lying, and sneaking and that I hoped one day to have a truthful conversation about the past several months.
This basically opened the floodgates regarding the fact that somehow I knew what was going on (snooping too much) and that I had to destroy any records I had of the A before she'd talk, etc. My responses were apologetic in that I didn't mean to start a full blown R talk via email. Her replies were pretty colorful and I kept mine calm and vague. Hard to tell how she reads them, as all I say or do is attacking her or otherwise wrong.
I went to work for a few hours and W was home when I pulled in. She was getting clothes together and I brought up the email exchange. I didn't want to go a whole week without draining the wound. Honestly, for all the hostility I was glad she was showing some emotion about the R.
Apparently she read through my text messages to my best man and didn't like what she read. We have discussed all different angles to my switch and some rubbed her wrong. I told her he was my best man and sounding board. I said you have OM to talk to, I have him. Best man is currently in another country, so I considered him far enough away to be inert, and trustworthy as hell, well beyond my wife for sure.
We had it out but eventually calmed down. No yelling, but she raised her voice a few times. I didn't give up my methods but told her I was done snooping for various reasons. She even asked if I'd hired a PI. Then said she was sending horrendous texts just to hurt me assuming I was reading them (which I can't, luckily). Apparently f-ing another person is ok, but snooping is one of the 7 deadlies.
Anyhow, it calmed down and she went to her mom's for a while with boys, to talk trash or trial S I'm sure. I bought groceries and cooked dinner.
So much more went on but that was the short version. She continues to lie and say it's over. Repeatedly. I've decided I don't or can't care anymore. I'm looking forward to a week without her lying to me and me snooping to my detriment. I called this hell week before, but maybe time apart will be good for us. No more snooping, I can do this. It's funny how ticked she got, not knowing what I know, but I doubt it helped our sitch. This week is all about letting go. Wish me luck.
Re-reading that post, my first email reply regarding lying and sneaking was said in a way to suggest we both were lying and sneaking around each other. Just to be clear, I suck too. Maybe my email wasn't clear either. I should have just said "thanks".
Well, she's off for her fantasy week away from home. I'm staying busy with work, then the boys. Tomorrow I'm meeting another lawyer in the morning followed by a meeting with pastor.
No snooping and starting what I hope is a real detach with her out of the house. She called to talk to boys and we had a basic conversation. She text a few times during the day, no doubt some were lies. I just replied to a couple of them. Left the rest with no reply. As we hung up just a "good night". No ILY or "sleep well, sweet dreams". That use to be what'd we'd say everynight, starting when we dated long distance 11 yrs ago. Now she ends her nightly emails to him with it (not the ILY part, not that I've seen anyhow), so I never say more than goodnight anymore. Also took walk with boys after dinner.
Anyhow, mom is watching boys tonight so I can go out for trivia night at a bar with some friends. W asked so I told her I was going out. I'm sure she has plans, but I don't care. Maybe I can meet a nice girl this evening. There's always a very slight chance.
Last night I went out and did a bad thing. I had a few drinks with a couple old friends. One of whom is a female, who owns the bar, and just celebrated her 20th anniversary and thus I've known her about that long. We talked and got onto how about 7 years ago her husband had a MLC of sorts including an affair during a time she was suffering from depression. Somehow they made it through. I of course bring up my story. She's known me since a teenager so she was crushed to hear the news, especially knowing the pain herself. She also knows my wife, since she is a family friend.
Well, several drinks later she decides, on her own, to drunk dial my wife in Chicago. Yeah. I didn't hear what she said, but a few minutes later I get a ticked off text from my W. It went: "Are you F'ing kidding me? Why the hell are you giving someone my number to call me? You want to go home with her, go ahead."
I was NOT happy my friend did that, but now I have a text I had to reply to. 25 minutes later I sent: "I'm not sure what happened. I left my phone on the bar to hit the bathroom and came back to this. Not sure what was said but it wasn't sent from me. Not something I would have done."
45 minutes later, W reply: "Whatever f'ing girl you are with calling me and leaving a message... "
5 minutes later I sent: "It was apparently (the friend). Was at (the bar) and we talked too much about her and (her H), and then us. I'm not after anyone else and I sure as hell didn't ask for something like this. She apologized, but too little too late."
That was it, so I have no idea what the W thinks about it at this point. Clearly shouldn't have confided in this friend, but she's not really a close friend as in definitely not someone my W would normally talk to. Did not figure on the drunk dial though. Note to self, SHUT UP. even though I need all the advice I can get.
W did replied to my text this morning, telling her the kids were good and made it to school. She thanked me for the update and said she was off to work. I told her good luck and she said thanks. So, no idea how she's taking it. I guess she can be mad I talked to a close friend of mine, but I can't stop drunk dials, right? W has the OM to talk to, but if I talk to a friend I'm an a-hole.
On the other hand, it did give her about an hour to think of me with another woman. Or she just had sex with the OM between texts. No telling.
You should have apologized to her for it happening. Then tell your friend that while you appreciate her concern for you, that you want to handle this on your own.
Went to see another ATTY today. Since W has set up an appointment to see an ATTY too I am thinking I should go ahead and file first.
W has been ticked off lately, before last night, about how I keep finding her hidden affair. She shows no signs of stopping, and only tries to hide it better. Last Friday she was sending the texts to OM1 and OM2 as mentioned before. Said she made them to be as awful as possible to hurt me if I was reading the texts (I wasn't). She quit going to counseling, saying she was never asked what time worked for her. Mind you, one session I went to that she skipped, she made time to get out and go shopping with her mom. That's dedication.
It was my now final snoop where I found she was changing OM hotel rooms so he'd look like he was flying in Wednesday, then saw the email where she changed it back to Tuesday. I'm not hacking or anything, very easy way to snoop that she has never thought about. Anyhow, she showed me his room change to Wednesday as proof he changed his flight. I checked his itinerary and it showed he'd printed his boarding pass for Tuesday. I told her I have that info, but she's out of her mind.
Anyhow, it was during this final snoop where I saw an email where she scheduled the appointment next week. I had scheduled for this week but cancelled after our talk Monday, but knowing she has the appointment I went there today anyhow. All these things add up to me that she doesn't want to work on the marriage but instead she just gets mad that I call her on the lies.
Considering everything I think I am going to call them to file this Friday, while she is still gone. Not sure how she'll react, and I still hope to save the marriage, but I can't sit by and get beat to death either, right? I would explain the D could be delayed if she went to regular counseling, scheduled by her of course. But that would be forcing her to go, and I don't know if that would work or help. Thoughts please?
Thanks Mrbond. I was going to apologize when she called to talk to the boys tonight or tomorrow. Tired of having texts/emails taken out of context, even though a simple sorry could suffice.
I chewed her pretty good last night when I figured things out. My friend today is very apologetic, and she knows it wasn't a good move, but I'll forgive her and let it go, cause that's what I do.
Survived another night with W at her conference with OM. Slept most of the night but did wake up for an hour or so around 3 or 4 this AM, but fell back asleep. Thoughts then were mostly on the D decision. No pills or booze to assist, just good old fashioned exhaustion. Detaching has been an issue with her here and acting as though she's ended the A. I've stopped snooping and that is a great relief that I hope will continue to heal. My hope for this week was to get my mind wrapped around letting my old W go.
I've confronted her 3 times regarding the A and all three times she says she ended it that night. I find that odd. I don't expect her to tell the truth, but she could say nothing about it the next day and at least not lie about it. I would rather be in a position where we both know it's going on, but leave it at that and not discuss or dwell on it.
Each time that I work to detach she seems annoyed that I treat her like the A is on going, which we both know to be the case, except she thinks I should act as if I believe her lies and be warm to her. She gets offended that I don't believe her. I guess the lies show signs of guilt, which could be a good thing, but then she doubles down on trying to hide the A better.
From here on out I don't intend to focus on the A, I know that has been a poison in my soul I have to let go. However, I refuse to live in an open marriage and I wonder where that line will be when I say this has gone on long enough. I'm already tired of being in limbo, if she wants out she's free to leave. It might even be a relief.
Still back and forth on the D filing decision. I want to work on things but I also think it would get her attention and make her realize I'm serious about not living in an open marriage. Not sure how else you hold that boundary without some sort of act of defiance. Confronting her about the A obviously doesn't work. It just makes her angry and more spiteful. D filing might do the same, I guess, but I bet it would shake up the fantasy world she is living in now. I also like that it would theoretically allow me to control the pace of the proceedings. I'd delay it if she showed signs of actually wanting to work on the M, instead of working on how to hide the A better.
I know I need to work on me and that's what I'll re-visit. I know I could be more patient with the boys, and I made a conscious effort to address that starting this week. I also need to show more confidence around the house. I think ending the snooping and dwelling on the A will help out with that.
In the last day and a half a few things have happened, but nothing major on the W front. I've stayed busy with odds and ends work. No snooping, so that is good. Got call from W yesterday that school called and S5 was sick and needed to be picked up. Luckily the deadbeat dad was at home and could do that (lingering bitterness, trying to release). He has a sore throat that I now know is pharyngitis.
I woke up about 2:00 am this morning and a few minutes later S5 came in my room. He threw up a few times in our trash can, but then settled down and kept down his juice and then meds. We just sat there and talked for a while, about hard times like being sick and how he needs to learn to take deep breaths. Listened to a few songs and he decided to go back to bed about 4:00. Got up at 6:30 and have been going ever since. It was nice to just talk to him. He's very bright and remembers everything I say to a fault. Smarter than I was at that age, though I didn't talk until I was 5, funny enough.
Minimal contact with W except about the boys. I did get a call last night to set up a j-o-b interview next week. It is more of an entry level job, pays about what I make working part time but would be full time with benefits. I work with the agency now as part of my consulting work, so I figure I am a shoe-in, but I won't count that chick 'til it hatches. I know they promote from within and they will have an increased budget for employees and managers once the project I am working on is finished and bought by them. Snuck the news into a text about the boys. Wife said it was "awesome" and asked when the interview was.
Otherwise, I met with a good friend of my dad for lunch today, really his best friend and my godfather, to discuss the D options. I'm currently leaning away from doing it right now, as the only reason to do it NOW would be to preempt her, and I don't know what she'll do next week. Talked to a lawyer friend and he felt filing first had advantages, but said in my situation it was minimal in the big scheme. However, he did say I should be ready for some really nasty things to be said/made up about me. The wife doesn't have much of anything on me, so he figures they will throw the kitchen sink and all at me in vague terms. I have nothing to hide, so whatever. I have been a little bummed this evening, and hope I can keep a PMA when the W gets back.
Anyhow, W didn't call to talk to the boys tonight but her brother is with her in Chicago tonight and tomorrow. Good for her. I'm still reviewing things in DB book and reading other related threads to think on the D decision. I'm going to make a list of reasons for and against and see what that looks like. I never thought I'd be to this point in my life. Damn it all.
The job thing has, to me, been the real underlying problem (or trigger) in our R problems. She perceived my leaving a job last October as me quitting, but it was precipitated from a joint decision we'd made earlier that year. I've mentioned this before, but it is really what I believe to have been the moment that began to unravel the very fabric of our R. She has mentioned it multiple times, how I didn't take her concerns seriously and ruined her way of life. This year I'll make 60% of last year. Apparently that 25,000 was all that stood between me and marital disaster. Sad really.
Perception is reality, that's what I've learned from that. However, WE turned down a general manager position for me in 2013 because I already spent too much time away from kids and home. And at that point W had been promoted to make about the same amount I would have made as the GM. The amount we'd decided was enough to survive on one paycheck, back when she wanted to quit and stay home with kids. As WE made that decision I told my wife, if I turn down this position, the one he hired me to fill, it would not surprise me if he lets me go right then. She accepted that fact, so I turned it down and he kept me in sales, for a while.
Jump forward 3 months, and the boss running me off for not taking the offered GM position (as was his style, instead of firing and paying unemployment), had a discussion with me in June, two actually, where we discussed my future and how/when I'd leave the company. He asked if I would stay until January 1 as he looked for a replacement, I said I'd had enough and would prefer October 1. This was me quitting, because I left 3 months earlier than he offered. And I could see it perceived that way by her, but I had seen him do this stuff to other employees and was tired of his tactics. Even after all that, he told me I just needed to leave at the end of August, and he paid through October. So I was destined to be run off. During that time I started my consulting business, which admittedly started slow. She did come to me and express concerns at that point, and I felt she had a negative attitude I didn't need at the time, but I took a step back and agreed I should be sending out resumes, starting that December, while I continued to work the new business.
Of course, working part time makes me the primary caregiver of the kids regarding appointments, swim lessons, and such. Happy to do it. But I think she sees the instability as a weakness that I bring to the marriage. After December she didn't come to me with her concerns, she turned to MIL, BFF, and of course her co-workers/OM1.
She had always been one who did our budget (until recently) and craves a direct deposited check on regular intervals. Consulting jobs leave you by the mail box hoping it comes in. I have turned down a full time job that paid less than I'm making now, working part time, that she wanted me to take. It's that kind of mindset I am dealing with. She'd apparently rather have less income but have it stable, than more income and hope the checks come in time. I don't understand, but I truly feel this difference in perception is a block for her. I'm to the point that I'll take a full time job making what I make now just to stabilize my world. I know I will move up, with my new attitude to the world I intend to run whichever company hires me within 5 years. I never intend to ever rely on anyone else, ever. I thought my W could handle that load as I got things going this year, but I was very wrong. Either I took her for granted (her view), or thought she was tougher than she was (my view). NEVER AGAIN. Whether with her or anyone else, I will control that part of my life.
Had a couple final good days with the W out of the house. The boys stayed last night with the in-laws and I got to go out with a friend who's a law talking guy. Got some free advice as he's worked a couple D's but not his specialty. He's too close to me and W to be my ATTY, but free advice is good. Besides, specialist is needed with this case.
You know why Ds are so expensive? Because they're worth it (rimshot).
Just a joke I read the other day. As I write this before bed, my W plane was to land at 9:50pm, it is currently 12:15am. It didn't take her long to test my resolve regarding not asking where she's been. Don't intend to say a thing. Not even a "was your flight late". I've got to let her go and turn her over to God. Worrying about her is too much to bear alone.
Otherwise, took boys to church, then ate lunch with them at my mom's. Then nap and then "trunk or treat" back at the church this evening. She asked me to text her pics and I did. Last I heard from her she was about to board her flight, same flight as OM1 if you're not keeping score. Came home, put boys to bed and cleaned most of the house. Have done most of the laundry in the last day or so, so that's one less thing.
So, I guess maybe I'll talk to her tomorrow assuming she actually comes home. At this point my resistance to complete detachment and filing are quickly waning. I'm tired. Off to bed.
My wife snooped on my phone/text messages between me and my best friend a week or so ago. We just throw around ideas and have been trying to figure things out, and he's really a sounding board for me. I delete the "bad" texts, but nothing we discuss is anything I'd hide from her, except anything pertaining to strategy.
Anyhow, W goes to conference with OM1, comes back after a week, and then tries to snoop on my phone again her first day back. I installed a program to take a pic and e-mail to me any incorrect phone opening attempts. She tried 5 times before it locked her out for 30 seconds.
Why would a WAW give a damn about snooping on my phone? What does that say about her state of mind (besides she's bat sh!t crazy)? Thoughts?
Had a good first day with her back, at least regarding my rules I set for myself. She got home around 1:00. I didn't say a single word about it. Nothing.
She did have to bring up the drunk dial from my friend. She was apparently not too fond of that. Might have hit too close to home, but she's so far gone I doubt that's the case. For the record I apologized that it happened.
Only physical contact today was as we got in bed a few minutes ago. She reached out her hand and I grasped it momentarily.
Still debating at what point is her disrespect enough to punch out. I just don't want to file for D prematurely because she is planning to meet with an ATTY. I'll take it day by day and see how she reacts to my LRT. I don't see myself making much more than a week or two with her home like this. One more all-nighter and that'll probably do it for me.
I've done good not to snoop. Figure her texting records will be there whenever needed in the future. Still perplexed by her interest to go through my phone. She's the cheat and liar, not me.
Rules to live by, in case you wondered:
Do not initiate contact.
Do not say ILY
Give her space, leave room first
Be more patient with boys
Be / Show more confidence
Don't sigh getting into bed
No talking under your breath
Keep a PMA!
NO mention of the A
NO mention of the R
NO mention of OM
NO snooping
Never ask or worry about where W is
Going back over your "list" of your shortcomings in the M. Much of them were snarky responses and you seemed to confine to belittle what the problems were. Your attitude in a lot of them were like " well I changed and she should be lucky I did so. Since I changed there is no reason why she shouldn't be happy"
Doesn't work when there seems to be a lack of sincerity.
Ok, so a few things have changed since my last post.
I'll reply to MrBond first. I appreciate any and all comments, and it helps me take a step back and look at myself. Thanks.
I don't doubt while I wrote my shortcomings I was in a snarky state of mind as I felt many of her complains were "script" and the same as so many told to other LBS on the board. I have been truly trying to change me and focus on my boys, it's just I haven't seen any effort from her to change the way she's acting towards our M. Except that I believe there is an OM2 and OM3 now. I also think the perception of me "quitting" my job was the primary trigger for her "he doesn't do anything right" attitude towards me. In a drunken rage this week she did mention that "all of a sudden you've become superdad for the last 6 weeks." So she has noticed some things.
I turned down a GM position because I acknowledged it was keeping me away from my family. She was involved in the decision, and specifically told it could mean loosing my job all together. Ironically, had he fired me that day instead of letting me work several more months, he would have been the bad guy. As it was, I got that label. That's the past, learn and keep chugging along. I feel that I have to bail on my consulting business and find an 8-5 job that she may see as "real". If nothing else, I'd better get serious so I have benefits again. Something I took for granted having a wife to lean on. Misjudged that one, for sure.
So, after much soul searching and talking to the handful of people who know my sitch, I decided to file for D on 10/28/14, officially filed 10/29. I talked to the ATTY while W was away but I put off a decision until she got back, to see if her attitude had changed. Her staying out until 1:00a that night, with no contact after she said she was boarding in Chicago about 6:45p, was something I see now as another sign of disrespect to me. Part of that includes hearing a message from now OM3 that he was on the way to meet her at a bar that night. I checked her text records on the phone bill and this is the guy she text as soon as she landed that night. Then through about 11:00p, with a break until a couple right around 12:45a. Yay.
So, it's filed during the day Wednesday. I felt I was completely fed up. How many men does it take to 'escape' me not going to the zoo with the kids? (snarky intended) I don't see any other way to show I was serious about my open marriage boundary and the disrespect of OMs. I know she had an appointment to meet an ATTY, but apparently she hadn't filed yet.
I felt bad, mostly for the kids, but it was also a great relief and I knew I'd be alright. Now the courts can sort out her texting log, right?
Wednesday afternoon the W text to say her and coworkers were going out for a beer or two after work. Said she knew I had plans to go out about 7:30 (part of GAL) but she was going to be home no later than 6. I said that was fair, and she planned to go.
I fed the boys, went for a walk with them. She text at 6:15 to say she was finishing a beer and then on the way. After our walk, I text her about 7:15 and just said "6?". She replied with a pic of a half full beer and said she was finishing up and then going to leave.
At 7:50 I text to tell her the boys were ready for their baths. Got no reply. During the evening I had told the boys that mom would be home (at 6 right?) and then I was going to go somewhere. As I'm brushing S5 teeth, he asks if mom is coming home. I told him, "I don't know", which was an honest response, I didn't know. He then said, "if you are going out and mom isn't here, who is going to watch us". Complete with lower lip quiver as he said it. Broke my heart.
I bowed up and told him "I am not going anywhere. I will be here when you wake up. I promise." This calmed him down and we finished up. As I put him to bed we say a standard little prayer. S5 asks "can we pray that mom comes home tonight". So I prayed with him for that. Crushed my broken heart.
After putting him to bed, at 8:58p I text her: "Don't bother coming home tonight. Boys are read to and in bed. I'm not going out." Of course, no response. Did I say I felt bad about filing? That feeling was fleeting.
She finally gets home about . . . sorry, I got to get some sleep, more to come.
"I don't doubt while I wrote my shortcomings I was in a snarky state of mind as I felt many of her complains were "script" and the same as so many told to other LBS on the board. I have been truly trying to change me and focus on my boys, it's just I haven't seen any effort from her to change the way she's acting towards our M. "
Then you didn't understand what DBing is all about. It's about changing your for you, irregardless of whether or not your spouse responds. It doesn't even seem as if you read the book.
It's why you haven't been successful. You never did believe in the system because you let your pride get in the way. You gave it a half effort.
Good luck to your sons.
Do you have more than one thread going?
I do get the feeling I am missing something. I read DB but I'm sure I glazed over parts. Knowing how I learn, a re-read will be in order. An emergency re-read at this point. When I learn to fix a car I do best to read about it, then work on it, then re-read the manual to really grasp the concepts.
My mindset with my changes has been that I will be a better dad and husband/boyfriend in the future and learn from what my W has expressed to me. I don't want or intend to go back to where I was before. Whether with her or someone else. My employment to a "real job" appears to be a major factor, but that 180 takes more time and I had been looking for months before any of this hit the fan.
My concern is that there is something more sinister going on with my W. She's acting like a drug addict in regards to these OM. It appears she uses sexting to work herself up on brain chemicals and adrenaline. Add her prozac, nicotine patches (2 a day habit), alcohol when not at work, and the sneaking around factor. It appears to me this has ramped up over the last few weeks, including bringing in OM 2 and 3 to meet her needs. OM1 is married with children and thus can't be on-call outside of work. At what point do you have to step in and do something to intervene with destructive behavior? OM8, 9, or a drunk driving arrest or car accident? It's very Jekyll and Hyde.
I didn't file D because I want scorched Earth, although that is what could happen. I did it because I can't live like this, watching what is happening to my W and the kid's mother. My other attempts to confront or go to counseling have been fruitless or made matters worse. I'm sure her mother doesn't know all of this, and her father knows none of it. However DB seems against exposure. The D will force exposure, whether good or bad.
Filing for D was my attempt to make a final stand. I still have to serve her the papers, and I have written a letter apologizing for anything I did to push a wonderful person to this point. I'm basically telling her I never wanted D, I'm sorry, and she is free to go if that's what she wants. At the end I wrote that if she wanted to work on a new marriage with a new husband and new wife, that I would work to that goal. From this day forward, keeping the lessons but putting the past behind.
Any outside thoughts are welcome. I hope to slow play the D and hope it gets her attention about my refusal to be in an open marriage. Discussing R outside counseling has led to more bitterness or spite, and she sees counseling as pointless. I'm still going to counseling for me.
I have a thread regarding to file for D first or not. Wanted to get other DB experiences regarding how that has worked or not worked for others to get a WAS attention or if it made things worse.
Filing just to be first is absolutely a bad idea. I'm sure of that.
The problem is that throughout the whole process, you kept having "expectations" of how you thought your W should act. Then when she didn't, you would get upset and then go back on your "changes". Those changes are for you to be a better man regardless of whether or not your W reacts to those changes.
Go back and read DB. Filing for D isn't slowing it down. You're using it as a ploy to trick your W into going back to you. It doesn't work that way.
In the cases where it did wake up the WAS, it was only because the LBS was absolutely done with the relationship and didn't really want the WAS any more.