Trying to stay patient- part 5 Was really hoping part 6 would be posted in 'Piecing', but oh well...
Recap of last week- communication between W and I has increased, very few, if any, negativity towards each other. This past weekend we went out on a date, but still nothing physical, not even hand holding. Sunday, W had a couples' baby shower deal for her good friend in the dreaded 'circle of friends'. When I asked if OM would be there, she confirmed with the host that he would not. Maybe she's still being untruthful, but per MC, I need to start giving her some benefit of the doubt considering she is taking some actions (shutting down FB) showing she is working on the M.
W came over last night for dinner, then we headed to our 5th session of MC, focused on goal setting. We both agreed to work on empathy, the use of 'pause' should we feel uncomfortable discussing topics outside of MC and validating each other's words/feelings. W then agreed to increase communication with me, while I agreed to begin 'courting' W. I explained why I had not up to this point- DBing 101! MC brought this suggestion up, not me, and asked if W was ok with it- W agreed that she would welcome it. We also discussed being physical with each other in the moment if it felt right- hand holding and hugs. W stated she was not comfortable with kissing right now and we agreed that she would be the one to initiate when she feels ready. Set up f/u session for next week and I brought up Retrouvaille session later this month. MC seemed all for it and W seemed interested as well.
Now to the fun part- So as we're pulling out of the parking lot (drove separate), W calls me. Asks me if I could check on a 401k loan and she's thinking of selling her van as those are the only ways she thinks she can afford getting her own place (I didn't say it, but no way I'm taking a 401k loan from MY account to support her getting her own place). We ended up talking for a half hour about her feeling like getting her own place, even for 6 mos, is the only way she could take the kids overnight during the week (for those not aware- she currently stays rent free with a friend in a 2 bedroom apt). In a way, I feel like her getting her own place would be a step backwards, but we did discuss it a while back as a way to 'start over' in dating each other while living apart. To avoid writing more than I already have, I've left out some positives and negatives from our conversations, but the bottom line is that it's TOTALLY clear to me (and MC) that her feelings are not there right now. She made the comment in MC that she's been hoping a 'switch' would go off inside her that would make her want to work on the M, but it hasn't. That's a big part of why she questions herself on if she should continue or not, as she's tired of living in limbo.
All in all, not a big surprise to me, although it did seem to come out of the blue. I've known from the start that she was not 100% in and I know I put myself in the situation I'm in by not following the advice given to me on here to a T (so save the 'you're being played' comments). The 'new' Tarheel ended the phone call not pressing W on where we stand right now. I made it clear that I've proven to myself that I was fine moving forward without W. I sent MC an email earlier asking her advice on handling the W getting her own place topic. If we're working together and dating each other for those 6 mos, maybe I'm ok with it. But I fear it would be used as justification for ending the M because she realizes she can make it on her own. W is planning on coming over tonight again to help D10 with her Halloween costume, so stay tuned.
Tar,
After reading your update, I thought I'd copy here what Starsky posted in MDU's thread over in the Infidelity forum. Just substitute OW for your W's OM. Starsky has articulated quite clearly the differences between having feelings coming back and making a decision. This applies to your sitch as well.
This is my opinion, and my belief system (although many people share it), and take it for fwiw:
I truly believe the old truth of "Love is a decision." It is a commitment that the two of you make, to each other and to the marriage, that says "we are exclusive, we are monogamous, we are going to work on this, til death (or divorce) do us part."
FEELINGS on the other hand, do take awhile to return. They can take a LONG while to FULLY return.
I stress this because often times (and usually, it's a wayward WOMAN, not a wayward man who expresses this) a wayward spouse will say "But I've lost my feelings for you," or "I don't love you anymore," or often "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" (which is completely a FEELINGS statement). My wife expressed the same fears to me: "If I end my affair and come back and work on the marriage with you, I don't think my feelings for you are ever going to come back." To which I replied "I'm not asking for you to guarantee anything about how you will FEEL; I'm asking you to make a DECISION to rejoin me in this marriage, and to work on it for some set period of time that we both can agree on -- say, one year. If at that time either one of us don't feel like this is working out, then at least we will know that we gave it our best shot."
Your husband -- as you have lamented here often throughout your sitch -- has never made that commitment, that decision. He's operated more like a woman, frankly and has led all along with his emotions. I think he compares his feelings for you with his feelings that he gets (or, if he truly ended it with her, that he USED to get) with OW.
And he doesn't think it can work with you.
The problem is, he has never committed to no-contact, and has in fact REMAINED in contact with her, mostly thru work and we hope that's all that it's been, but it's still CONTACT.
Physiologically, this has caused him to remained emotionally BLOCKED to you, and he's being unfair not only to YOU but also to HIMSELF if he makes a potentially life- and family-altering decision (like divorce) based on whether or not he feels "in love" with you currently.
Not until OW is completely out of the picture, and you two agree to work on things exclusively, will his feelings begin to return and even then it takes AWHILE. My wife and I began to feel differently towards each other after a few months, but it took probably 2-3 YEARS for it to get back fully.
It's why I'm such an absolute NAZI about no-contact and transparency. I got overruled here, and I deferred to your decision and the advice from others which DID (and does) very much work at RE-ATTRACTION. We've seen that, and you did it very well! But for re-attraction to then take the next necessary step of COMMITMENT on your husband's part, I believe has a very small chance as long as he's remaining in contact with OW and keeping some part of his heart open to her.
I could be wrong. His statement about his feelings may have more to do with long-term issues he has with you, mixed with how much he's seeing you change (or NOT change) currently, and him deciding "these are the things that made me unhappy in the marriage to begin with, and why I stepped outside of my marriage and left mdu." But at a MINIMUM his decision-making is at least heavily INFLUENCED by the endorphines still running around his brain, in my opinion.
I just wanted to clarify that, since you've said that you are a "facts and logic" person and you like to think everything thru. The GOOD news in all of that is, I don't think your husband even YET has allowed himself to decide what he wants to do with you while UNINFLUENCED by a third party. And it remains to be seen whether or not that might still happen, and maybe his feelings change. So it doesn't necessarily mean that his feelings so far have been a "lie" -- they've just been blocked/influenced by remaining feelings for OW.
I do think it (no-contact decision-making, uninfluenced by a third party) needs to happen, though before the two of you make such a life-altering decision like divorce, if that's what you're thinking.
((((hugs)))),
Starsky
I believe that love is a decision too.
If only I could get W to understand and accept this as well....
Why can't you date her while she lives rent-free in her current place?
That seems to me like a reasonable compromise. Would you two be dating each other exclusively??
Starsky
The reason she wants to get her own place (at least what she's told me) is so that she could keep the kids during the week and get them to school. Right now, she doesn't have room at her rent free place. Throw in 3 different school starting times and it's just not feasible at her current location.
If she was 100% in and agreed to dating me exclusively, I don't think I'd have as much of an issue with it. But since she's not given me the indication she's 100% in, I fear her getting her own place would take her 1 step closer to D.
6 months is a long time for her to see the new real you. c'mon man, you can do this. you've already got the playbook to her heart. a lot of things change but you are so far ahead of the game in being able to win her over. you have years of nuances that you have seen from her. if she is honestly open to the idea the only person that can keep you from succeeding is you. by not letting go of old hurts, arguments, etc. it's not like when you first started dating where you are learning everything bout her and end up making mistakes along the way. so far as the new place, yeah that would be a concern. if you make a big deal about it, she will make a bigger deal about it. she makes her own decisions. don't give her something to focus on that you tried to "take" from her. of course, take what i have to say worth a grain of salt because of my failure in my sitch.
don't give up!!
Well, she's NOT "making her own decisions" if Tarheel has to borrow from his 401k to fund it.
true enough, i was referring to her "feelings" not the nuts and bolts. if she wants to move, she has to take that on all herself. just referring to the idea.
Email from W this morning that she set up her own bank account, but we still have the joint account. She also said the following:
'This s*cks. Life s*cks. I hate people that complain about those things, but do nothing to change it. I am making a change.'
I have no idea if that's positive? negative? do I respond? She didn't end up coming over last night, so we haven't spoken since after MC the other night. No idea where we stand with things.
There's no question in it, and it's not about the kids.
So no need to respond.
Well, I think I now know where things stand and it appears that one door of my life is coming to a close...
Very little communication with W this past weekend as she reverted back to just communicating with S15 on her plans/when she was picking the kids up. I got back from church Sun morning to find the kids not home. Sent W a text asking if she had them and asking why she hadn't been communicating with me. Received the following text:
'I love you, will always love you, but I need to take care of me. I hope we find our way back to each other eventually, but I need to make some changes for that to even be possible. I'm going to take a 6 mo lease and go from there. I feel forced to make this move...I tried to talk about this the other night but it didn't go over well.'
I apologized for the other night and just said I was taken off guard and wasn't sure how I felt about it at the time. Asked her if she wanted to stop by later to discuss, but she had book club. When I asked if she still wanted to go forward with our Thurs MC session or if this was her way of 'breaking up with me', I received no response. (that was my instant reaction. Wasn't til later that what she was telling me really sunk in). No response until later when she text saying she had 'told the kids about the possibility of getting apt..not fun..hard things to address...S15 has me in tears (he told her he wasn't going to stay with her during the week).' She told me she'd call me last night to discuss, but I never heard from her.
As sad as all of that makes me, I don't feel as devastated as I did at various times this past yr when we talked about being done. I still have plenty of questions about what comes next and what our interaction will be- are we taking a clean break? Continuing to date/MC?
On one hand, maybe it's a positive that she's going to take some time to work on herself (although 1 could argue she's had a full year to be doing that). With the changes I've made in myself and in my life, one of my biggest concerns was always that I didn't see her changes and would the 'new' Tarheel and the 'old' Mrs Tarheel be able to work it out. On the other hand, does the fact that she's planning on getting her own place and setting up her own bank account bring her one step closer to us going our separate ways for good...
Sorry to hear this, Tar. I know you were really hoping for more.
Starsky
but I need to make some changes for that to even be possible.
Even
she realizes she needs to make changes before things will work out for the two of you. However, based on what she said in the email, she isn't ready or doesn't want to make the changes
now. She still has to work through her own sh't. Can you accept it?
I don't see her dating you, exclusively, b/c that requires some degree of commitment, doesn't it? She can't commit to you, period.
To me, the email sounds very much like her saying goodbye to you (as nicely as she can) for at least the next 6 months. Getting a lease and setting up accounts is her showing independence from you (partly, since she hasn't closed the joint account yet).
I know you are going to do whatever Tarheel wants to do, but I still say if you will stop putting emotional pressure on her, you will stand a better chance of her wanting the M back again.
She still has to work through her own sh't. Can you accept it?
Yes Sandi, that's the question I've been wrestling with today. If we're not exclusive towards each other during those 6 mos, I just don't know that I can a) sit around and put my M on hold while I 'wait' for her to decide to give it a shot AND/OR b)be ok with her possibly dating others during those 6 mos. However, if we're able to set some ground rules during that time (ex- no dating others), maybe I'm ok with the continued time apart?? I just don't know that I see that being her approach.
I agree with your interpretation of her text though- I don't see her wanting to continue with MC/dating. I am glad that she finally realizes that she has some things she needs to work on for us to have any possibility of working out. If we are able to work it out in the long run, we will both be better individuals. But, if we're not dating, she needs to understand that she runs the risk of losing me forever, which will be the case.
I'm not sure how soon all of this will occur as she can't afford a 3 bedroom apt with out at least selling her car. Or she's going to ask me to take out a 401k loan for her, which I will not be doing, which may lead to some tension. I also have no idea if she's wanting to remain M during those 6 mos or move forward with a dissolution.
As per her previous method of communication when she has something 'big' to say, I've been expecting an email any minute from her with the logistics as it's less emotional and confrontational than a phone call.
Tar,
If we're not exclusive towards each other during those 6 mos, I just don't know that I can a) sit around and put my M on hold while I 'wait' for her to decide to give it a shot AND/OR b)be ok with her possibly dating others during those 6 mos. However, if we're able to set some ground rules during that time (ex- no dating others), maybe I'm ok with the continued time apart?? I just don't know that I see that being her approach.
It is your anxiety about your W's decision that you're wanting to set down some conditions in order to make you feel secure. It doesn't work that way. Let. Her. Go.
The way I see it, this decision is an opportunity to CONTINUE working on yourself. Make permanent changes that you can live with after all it will be for the rest of your life...not just to get W back. It is a new YOU...new Tarheel.
What a gift! There's so many positives. Allow me to list them here:
-W will see "real" life on the other side on her own
-W will certainly encounter difficulties without you around
-W will slowly realize how life was like with you as her rock
Give this time for all of that to sink in for your wife. That is the real gift here.
You just cannot tell W not to date others because it is controlling. However you already told W that you are not willing to live in an open marriage. She's heard you on that one. She KNOWS this.
BTW, you don't just sit around. How lame is that?!! Get out and GAL your butt off! Life is out there waiting for the taking.
But, if we're not dating, she needs to understand that she runs the risk of losing me forever, which will be the case.
You've got this all wrong. You don't need to date for W to realize that she's losing you. Instead you go dark. That's how the WAS realizes the reality of their choices. Just disappear and be busy GALing. Be happy.
Keep your interactions with W at a bare minimum. If you're in her face all the time, there's ZERO opportunity for W to miss you and miss the essence of Tarheel.
Your fear and wet noodle backbone has been your Achille's heel. For real.
'she needs to understand that she runs the risk of losing me forever' So far, W has not seen any evidence of it by your wishy-washy actions over the past several months.
I'm not sure how soon all of this will occur as she can't afford a 3 bedroom apt with out at least selling her car. Or she's going to ask me to take out a 401k loan for her, which I will not be doing, which may lead to some tension. I also have no idea if she's wanting to remain M during those 6 mos or move forward with a dissolution.
Let W find this out for herself. Not for you to mindread or assume for her. Let her learn about the hard knocks of life on her own. Don't you dare to swoop in and try to rescue W from the choices she's making right now.
Here's an action plan once W moves out:
-Go pitch black dark
-Keep interactions to a bare minimum about the kids
-GAL your butt off
-Be the first to end the phone convos
-Be short & concise in email/text exchanges
-Don't fund her lifestyle nor cash out your 401K
-Separate your accounts from W so she cannot have access to your money
Thanks Wonka, I needed to hear that.
"However, if we're able to set some ground rules during that time (ex- no dating others), maybe I'm ok with the continued time apart?? "
That's not going to work. Unfortunately, she's going to do what she wants to do even if it includes dating. You are going to have to take that into consideration to see if that's a deal breaker.
It never did seem like her heart was into the C because you were driving everything. She never got a chance to work on herself.
But don't despair. She never said that she didn't want you which is actually a good sign. What are you willing to tolerate?
There is one ingredient in this exclusive dating you may be missing. To a WAW, the most desired and pressing issue for her is......FREEDOM. She can't see freedom in exclusively dating her H.
Exclusive dating, for her, would be no different than being in the marriage. Therefore, it does not appeal to her. It may not be "you" as much as the idea of losing her freedom and independence, as she sees it.
I am not suggesting that you should be one of her BF's. On the contrary, I think you should drop that blasted rope and move on with your life. You feel as if your life and your M has been on hold, right? She may have cheated, but you are the one who put everything on hold.
I have a new 180 for you. Stop trying to get her back.
Hello Tarheel,
Reading your story encouraged me to register on this forum and soon to share my own struggle (my wife recently left me). But first, I wanted to give you some feedback, after reading perhaps 40-50% of your story (I skipped the middle part).
1) Forget about the OM. Your W has left you, you can't impose any conditions. The M contract has been shredded: she's free, you're free. Stop talking to her about other men. It diminishes you. I know this will be difficult. You say that you can't accept that she dates other men? Then you have to move on because you have no power over it (other than the power to driver her away). Or perhaps you have to accept that she'll do this detour on her way back to you. A lot of men have accepted it. Say all you want that you won't accept it, but remember: you have no control over it.
2) Follow the advice you get here! I'm amazed at how many times you went against the advice of the wise people here and got into trouble, only to do it again. You might think that it's too hard sometimes, but see it as a chance to make real efforts to win her back.
3) Remove the negativity from your interactions with her. I'm surprised at how much negative feelings are still between the two of you. I systematically avoid anything negative in my interactions with my WAW. I don't want her to feel anything negative when she thinks of contacting me. To me the worst part is your list of conditions to get back together: I can't imagine a hesitant WAW would look at this and think: "That's what I want!" Paint a good picture of a reconciliation, not a painful process of work and compromises. Honey, not vinegar. Once she's back, once she wants you, she'll be ready to consider the efforts and your boundaries.
4) Be more incremental. You ask for complete commitment and become unpleasant when you don't get it. Instead, see every little victory in a good light. If her commitment to you goes from 20 to 25%, make her feel good about it. She'll move to 30% and 35% and eventually 100%.
5) Have you ever broken up with a girlfriend? Do you remember how it felt when she came back begging you to take her back, imposing her conditions? The deal is different with a M and kids, but the feelings are similar. You probably wanted nothing from that girlfriend and her pleading made her even less attractive. Think back on this experience to put yourself in your W's shoes. Imagine what it would have taken for you to be attracted again to this ex-gf.
This may sound harsh, or repetitive or perhaps I missed important parts of your story. It looks as if you're progressing very slowly, falling back often, and that you need to get real: she left you. She's no longer in a relationship with you, yet you remain very controlling as if she were. You use every link you have with her to try to control her: the house, the kids, the money. Accept that this woman has become a sort of stranger, let go of your desire to control her. She left you because you were controlling her. She won't come back as long as you will keep on trying to control her.
We're on your side.
Thanks Mozza- it took me several mos of reading stories before I decided to take the plunge as well. If sharing my story has encouraged you or anyone else to share their struggle, I consider it a success. There's NO WAY I would be where I am today without all the help/advice I've been given by complete strangers who take time out of their own lives to help myself and others.
And thanks for the feedback. This piece really stood out to me:
You say that you can't accept that she dates other men? Then you have to move on because you have no power over it (other than the power to driver her away). Or perhaps you have to accept that she'll do this detour on her way back to you. A lot of men have accepted it. Say all you want that you won't accept it, but remember: you have no control over it.
That's what I struggle with. If this were a girlfriend who broke up with me, I wouldn't have a problem with either one of us dating before coming back together. But this is my W of 15 years. It's so hard to get my head wrapped around her being with other men (which she has), then us coming back together. But I also know that I can't think of it that way- our M is dead, she's already gone. Just a difficult thought to process/accept...
I will admit that a big problem of mine has been to continue following all of that great advice. I'd think I was dong fine, then would find out W was with OM and I'd freak out and backslide. Or W would dangle just enough of the carrot to keep me from detaching.
I've received quite a bit of advice these past few posts, giving me a lot to think about. I still haven't heard anything from W on her plans since she said she'd call me this past Sunday. No answer on continuing with MC, which is scheduled for tomorrow morning. I'm planning on going regardless if she shows or not, which I'm assuming she will not. Can't control her actions, right?!
Took the boys to a hockey game last night and D10 didn't want to go. Without thinking twice, I called my mom to see about watching her. It wasn't until after I hung up the phone that it even dawned on me to see if W could watch her. Suppose I'm just so used to being a single dad, it was my natural instinct to call my parents. GAL- Took Friday off to take the kids to a pumpkin show, then going to see a co worker's band Fri night. Also have some other interests I'd like to explore. Time to take action instead of just thinking about them.
That's what I struggle with. If this were a girlfriend who broke up with me, I wouldn't have a problem with either one of us dating before coming back together. But this is my W of 15 years. It's so hard to get my head wrapped around her being with other men (which she has), then us coming back together. But I also know that I can't think of it that way- our M is dead, she's already gone. Just a difficult thought to process/accept...
Yes, it's hard to accept. It seems to happen on a hormonal level and reasoning can't entirely calm us down. It must be biological: we found a mate and want to protect it from other males. With a strong bond developed over 15 years of marriage, it's even harder to let go. I wish you to find the strength. Just know that it won't help to try to rationalize and justify your jealousy, not outside of a committed relationship.
I still haven't heard anything from W on her plans since she said she'd call me this past Sunday. No answer on continuing with MC, which is scheduled for tomorrow morning. I'm planning on going regardless if she shows or not, which I'm assuming she will not. Can't control her actions, right?!
That's what I do: I never ask anything. It's important that she take responsibility for her actions, that she skip the MC because of her choice, not because she turned down your demands. I'm wondering if this MC is pleasant for her? Is she looking forward to it? If not, I wonder if it's really helping. I'm of the mind that the WAW needs to look forward to your M, not see it as work and a burden. Not sure how aligned this is with DBing though.
Took the boys to a hockey game last night and D10 didn't want to go. Without thinking twice, I called my mom to see about watching her. It wasn't until after I hung up the phone that it even dawned on me to see if W could watch her. Suppose I'm just so used to being a single dad, it was my natural instinct to call my parents.
I think it's perfect: don't ever ask her to babysit. Don't ask her anything. Don't give her a chance to be annoyed by you and to reject you.
Congrats on the GAL efforts and have fun on Friday!
I will admit that a big problem of mine has been to continue following all of that great advice. I'd think I was dong fine, then would find out W was with OM and I'd freak out and backslide.
Or W would dangle just enough of the carrot to keep me from detaching.
This right here is my Krypto ... I can not seem to escape her tentacles. She knows what to say, what to do, can break me by just a look or an act. The power she has developed over me over the years is brutal .. slowly I am and have been pulling back, but I teeter on .. how far do I go as I do want the M ... I think by reading your sitch .. you have not removed yourself enough for her to miss you / nor realize she could loose you as she knows you are right there .. I fear I am doing the same ... food for thought ... I really need to be dark for a good amount of time I think.
Email from W this morning...
'I think we have a counseling appointment today, forget time?
But, I need to get this all out and its hard for me in counseling to get everything I want to say put into words...I freeze up...
This is what I wrote to you last night:
Another week of very little communication...it's not just me, it's both of us....I can't go on like this and neither should you. Living in limbo is no way to live. I need a home, I need my children, I need to be myself again and have routine. How much longer do I put my life on hold? You too....
I am actively making changes and moving forward.
I found a condo.It is great for me and the kids. I can move in this weekend. I'm going to take some furniture from the house- the green couch and chair, and the sofa table.
I can take 1 dog full time and rotate the other dogs with kids.
We should discuss money of course, but I worked a budget already.
We need to discuss the kids' schedule. I need to see them on a consistant basis now that I have a place for us. I need you to help me in coming up with a schedule and back me up on it. Otherwise I'll have to have an attorney put it in writing. I have an appointment with an attorney on Monday to discuss our situation.
Being totally honest, I am leaning towards filing for dissolution.
I really have no idea what the future holds for us. As I have said a million times, I love you. You are my family.
I will never rule out the possibility of us getting back together, but right now, at this moment that's not the path we're on....
I need a fresh start.'
Tarheel, that hurts a lot. But making things more regular can also work to your advantage in giving you both the space to see things more clearly. I hope you can take the. Long view...it's only a setback in that she doesn't want to work on the marriage right now, which you already knew. In other ways, it impacts you very little.
I'm sorry for the pain.
Tarheel, there's hope in that message from your W. I can only imagine how hard it must be to accept that arrangement. Then again, I'd take it over where I am now.
Let her have time to heal and space to clear her head. You work on you, and do all the things we DB'ers do.
It seems a common thread amongst the success stories around here is that once one of the LRT triggers goes off, a clean break is necessary at some point for the WAS/MLC'er to come back around. Don't know if that's 100% true, but it seems close to the mark.
(sorry, I'm still under moderation and my message from yesterday hasn't appeared yet)
I agree with Shakspr: you need this clean break to hope ever fixing this. It will remove many ways in which you are the source of trouble for her. She needs to stop thinking of you as a source of problems. Her own apartment, a fixed schedule with the kids and dogs -- all these things will get out of the way so that she can find peace of mind.
By the way, she said something very important:
I will never rule out the possibility of us getting back together, but right now, at this moment that's not the path we're on....
Don't expect anything from her at this moment: she's completely wrapped in her intention to separate from you. Don't ask for reconciliation: you're not going to get it now. It doesn't mean she won't change her mind later, it means now, she's not there. I'm in a similar situation and I've learned not to ask anything. Be happy she said she doesn't rule out getting back together; it's a good start under the circumstances.
Tarheel, that is a tough message to digest. She is moving towards S and very likely D. But I agree with the others that there is some hope. All you can do is move forward, GAL, detach and focus on you and your kids.
Thanks guys (and gal). It's a tough pill to swallow, although I can't say I was surprised. Knowing that we're likely headed towards D has all of the anger and bitterness that I've repressed starting to bubble up.
Getting ready to head to our MC session, which at this point seems like a mute point. Going to be hard to look W in the face (should she show up).
Tar
I feel for you, my W and I are starting to have similar talks. The letter she wrote to you is really close to what my W was expressing to me last night.
Tarheel .. I have no words really, that letter is a tough one thats for sure, we are all hoping for the best regardless of the outcome of any of our M ... I think deep down we just want to see our fellow DB's at peace and happy .. All I can do is wish that for you during this tough time.
Tar - I stopped updating my own situation because yours seemed to be a virtual clone of mine - a lot of limbo, a lot of 'forced' compromises and an overarching lack of decision or commitment one way or the other. I have gotten advice through your posts and vet replies and I see you doing a lot of the same things I did. As I have said before, my situation is a little more progressed than yours is and I could almost predict her actions, as well as yours. I heard all the same responses and reacted in all the same ways.
I am really sorry that you received that letter this morning. I totally empathize with the feelings of anger and betrayal that you thought you had at bay and how they came rushing back.
The one thing I can tell you that I learned is this: When you are finally able to really let go, you will suddenly find yourself in such a calm place of peace where everything may not be right with the world and where everything may not be the way you envisioned it but where everything is OK. When you get to this spot, you will not want to go back to the chaos and turmoil that you've been living since BD.
I think its very difficult for those of us that internalize and honor our commitments to others to get to that place - I suppose this may be because those commitments have really become a part of who we are and what we believe in. However, when you do, it will be a very liberating experience.
The one thing I can tell you that I learned is this: When you are finally able to really let go, you will suddenly find yourself in such a calm place of peace where everything may not be right with the world and where everything may not be the way you envisioned it but where everything is OK. When you get to this spot, you will not want to go back to the chaos and turmoil that you've been living since BD.
I think its very difficult for those of us that internalize and honor our commitments to others to get to that place - I suppose this may be because those commitments have really become a part of who we are and what we believe in. However, when you do, it will be a very liberating experience.
Dingo, this is perfect, every word. Any advice on how to get there?
To no surprise, she did not show up to MC.
So how to move forward?- I've got to continue to GAL, spending time with the kids, going to church and focusing on making myself a better person.
My feelings being what they are right now, I'm dreading any future interactions with W. School events, holidays, coordinating schedules for kids... I have no desire to even speak with her right now. It's too bad that it took her over a year and an OM to realize what I realized maybe 2 mos after BD- that we needed to work on ourselves.
MC asked me what I'd say if W came back 6 mos from now saying she wanted to work on us. It's obviously too soon to answer a question like that, but I only hope that I can continue to use this time to focus on improving myself so that should that scenario happen, I'm in a better place emotionally than right now.
The one thing I can tell you that I learned is this: When you are finally able to really let go, you will suddenly find yourself in such a calm place of peace where everything may not be right with the world and where everything may not be the way you envisioned it but where everything is OK. When you get to this spot, you will not want to go back to the chaos and turmoil that you've been living since BD.
I think its very difficult for those of us that internalize and honor our commitments to others to get to that place - I suppose this may be because those commitments have really become a part of who we are and what we believe in. However, when you do, it will be a very liberating experience.
Dingo, this is perfect, every word. Any advice on how to get there?
BY DBING!!!
Seriously, every 'tactic' of DBing is designed solely to get you to that point. Following sandi's rules, GALing, detaching, taking charge of your own life, taking your spouse off the pedestal...its all for you!
Yes. Time to re-read. Thanks.
To no surprise, she did not show up to MC.
So how to move forward?- I've got to continue to GAL, spending time with the kids, going to church and focusing on making myself a better person.
My feelings being what they are right now, I'm dreading any future interactions with W. School events, holidays, coordinating schedules for kids... I have no desire to even speak with her right now. It's too bad that it took her over a year and an OM to realize what I realized maybe 2 mos after BD- that we needed to work on ourselves.
MC asked me what I'd say if W came back 6 mos from now saying she wanted to work on us. It's obviously too soon to answer a question like that, but I only hope that I can continue to use this time to focus on improving myself so that should that scenario happen, I'm in a better place emotionally than right now.
I might also advise you to consider your response to the scenario where she comes back two weeks from now and 'wants to work on the marriage' with half-steps.
great post dingo. i want to go to that place.
Don't forget, she was in a fog during that year. She was possessed by an alien. Etc. She didn't do anything productive for herself other than maybe learning that OM was a fantasy R.
You're, what, 9 months into DBing? And you're still working on things. You still have a long way to go. You realized a long time ago that this is a LONG road, for you as an individual and for you M, if it is to be reconciled. She is just stepping foot onto that path. She is 9 months behind you. And on top of that, it almost sounds like she WANTS to be in love with you but is feeling guilt/remorse/despair/anxiety that she doesn't feel that way. If it ever comes up in conversation again, remind her of the "rebuild" rule: For every year you're together doing something wrong (in this case sustaining love), it takes that many months of doing it right before you are healed. So if she's waiting for a switch to flip, she'll be waiting forever. Life-long, fulfilling M is hard work, not magic. But it sounds like your best path right now, as suggested by vets, is to go dark as the night and GAL.
When I pray for my WAW, I don't pray that she magically loves me. I pray that she realizes she has lots of things to work on within herself, that she finds the best resources to help her, and that she begins working on them. If you don't believe in prayer, then replace the word pray with "desire" or "wish" or whatever. But I find it encouraging that your W appears to at least be start that walk. Most WAS's seem to come out of their fog more disoriented or misguided than ever, or they are entrenched in their old ways and are doomed to repeat history.
I wish you the best Tarheel, and I'll continue to listen to any updates you share with us.
I might also advise you to consider your response to the scenario where she comes back two weeks from now and 'wants to work on the marriage' with half-steps.
A very good point. It seems like a lot changed in your sitch, Tarheel, just in the last week. Don't have any expectations, but give her a few weeks in your new arrangement (especially if you go dark) and see what it's like then.
Thanks Card (and others). You bring up some very good points that actually help explain why I feel so conflicted right now. Ironically, I have been praying for a while now that W discovers what all she needs to work on and takes those necessary steps. On the flip side, I obviously wanted that process to involve W finding out that she did want to work on our M. And maybe that will eventually be the case...
Soccer this weekend, school play in a couple weeks, trick or treat...right now I have no desire to do any of those things as 'family' or with W being involved. Maybe in time, but it's difficult for me to ever see someone who has cheated on me, then made a conscious decision not to put the work in to restoring our M, as a friend...
On a side note, I have W's favorite bottle of wine and some chocolate covered strawberries I was planning on giving her on Sweetest Day (had planned/ordered last week when we were still working on things). I've already paid for everything, so going to drop off at W's place (anonymously). One last good will action.
Or drink the wine and share the treats with your kids.
Or drink the wine and share the treats with your kids.
^^^This would be my choice^^^
Or drink the wine and share the treats with your kids.
^^^This would be my choice^^^
i third that. your plan is not going to have the affect you want it to.
No plan associated with it at all. In fact, I was half tempted to eat the strawberries and put the remains back in the box
Soccer this weekend, school play in a couple weeks, trick or treat...right now I have no desire to do any of those things as 'family' or with W being involved. Maybe in time, but it's difficult for me to ever see someone who has cheated on me, then made a conscious decision not to put the work in to restoring our M, as a friend...
Or......you could always do it my way.
You're about to do it again with the strawberries and the wine! Keep it all for yourself. Invite a friend to drink and eat it all after the kids are in bed. Don't make yet another exception to the DB principles. You'll lament that it didn't work out as expected. Of course you hope she'll think of you. If you really want to have no impact, be honest and keep it.
ME, ME, ME!!! I want those delicious strawberries!....
elbowing everyone here outta the way...It's a date then, Tar.
Joking aside, I find it incredible that your W left the door open just a crack to the possibility of getting back together. She's operating from an emotional plane that is clouding her perspective on many things so she feels the need to step back and make a clean break from you.
Have you thought about drafting a response to your W using validation techniques (hint, hint)??
The main thing is to ride the waves of the pain and let it wash over you. If you feel the need to step away from "family" activities, do so for your own well being. At some point, you'll get to the place where you will be able to attend your children's events.
Take your time, buddy.
Thanks Wonka, but I owe you (and so many others) a lot more than some chocolate covered strawberries!!
A couple of observations from today...
1. Maybe because W's email wasn't totally unexpected, but if I would have received that same email 3, 4, 8 mos ago, my heart would have dropped to my stomach. Don't get me wrong, I'm upset/disappointed, but I've not shed a tear (even reviewing the sitch in MC today). That mean I'm detached? More confident in being on my own? Not in love anymore??
2. Part of me is 'happy' that W finally is taking time to work on herself. Yeah, it hurts that we're likely headed towards D, but I realize that her actions are necessary should we have any hope of getting back together down the road. Maybe I need a 'fresh start' too??
3. Everything is still fresh, but I'm back and forth on how to treat/interact with W going forward. My instant, gut, hurt reaction is that I don't want to speak to her. I don't want to be around her. I'm perfectly fine ending that friendship because of all the hurt I've been through. However, I also realize that IF I do want any chance of reconnecting with W down the road, a perfect opportunity lies ahead of me (starting with that response you mentioned). I'll need some time to process...
3. Everything is still fresh, but I'm back and forth on how to treat/interact with W going forward. My instant, gut, hurt reaction is that I don't want to speak to her. I don't want to be around her. I'm perfectly fine ending that friendship because of all the hurt I've been through. However, I also realize that IF I do want any chance of reconnecting with W down the road, a perfect opportunity lies ahead of me (starting with that response you mentioned). I'll need some time to process...
Speak with your actions. No need to tell her that you don't want to speak to her, see her, be her friend. In your communications, just be short, to the point, elusive. If you attend an event together, treat her like a neighbor: courteous, yet a stranger. This way, you get the distance you need from her and you don't burn any bridges.
Received a text from W after the wine/strawberries were delivered...
'Oh, and thank you for the berries and wine...made me cry:( very thoughtful. didn't know it was sweetest day.'
Soccer this morning, but we didn't talk (no effort on my part). Emotions are still pretty fresh for me so I think I may schedule IC. Been a while since I've talked to him.
Received a text from W after the wine/strawberries were delivered...
'Oh, and thank you for the berries and wine...made me cry:( very thoughtful. didn't know it was sweetest day.'
OK OK, you win this round! ;-)
Wonka (or others)- can you provide me with some talking points in regards to your validation response? I'm starting to feel that I do need to respond to W, but my first draft attempt was more focused on explaining my internal battle on how to interact with her going forward (screw you vs friendly neighbor).
I feel like I need to make a decision right now on if I would want to get back with W down the line (see #3 in one of my last few posts).
I always take to validation as understanding that what they are feeling is the truth to them. Focus on the hurt or pain or whatever emotions they are experiencing. Empathise with those feelings and use those feelings to focus your response.
If you are feeling blamed or accused ask additional questions about how they are feeling or how a certain event made them feel. Then go back to empathy before you respond.
Others may have different ways they do it, but this is my method. It helps me to understand how my W feels.
The advice I got not long ago was that everything I do or say should be appropriate if I knew for sure we would reconcile, AND if I knew for sure we would not.
I don't see why you need to make a life changing decision today.
I guess what it comes down to is that I don't want people in my life that lie to me, that betray me, that hurt me...and make no attempt to right those wrongs. So if I decide I'm done DBing, I move forward as a co-parent and that's it. No reason for small talk or treating her like a neighbor. However, if I decide I still want to continue with DB, I remain friendly with W. I think I'm still viewing this all out of emotions...
Ideally, how does reconciling work after D? I suppose I have to let it all go, but I still would have a lot of questions that have gone unanswered. Does all of that get thrown out the window and you start fresh? Do you revisit all of those questions/issues with the M and A?
Despite the amount of hurt your W has inflicted on you, I think it is always in the best interest of your kids if you can remain friendly, no matter what. I have seen firsthand the damage it can cause to a family when two exes cannot be more than cordial - kids get damaged by these things. On the flip side, I've seen what happens when two parents can be friendly. I know it's hard, but I think when you have kids it is important to try put your own feelings aside just a little - and therefore I think there is some purpose to being friendly with your W, whether you ever reconcile or not.
I'm ICing myself- I recognize that a very big part of it is me still trying to control W's feelings- I want her to have a sense of loss (my friendship), I want her to hurt, I want her to regret her decision, I want her to recognize what she did was wrong (in my eyes). I don't want her to feel justified in her actions and decision by my remaining friendly with her. I want her to be held accountable for what she's put me through.
Like I said, still viewing this out of emotion right now.
Tar, you need a vet, stat.
Like this check on how I respond.
I'm confused about posting since my posts weren't responded to. Can someone help out?
Hi Tarheel,
I totally get what you are saying about being friendly vs freezing her out. I have debated this question on my thread recently and thought about it a lot. I agree with vossy in your case since you have children you need to remain cordial for their sake. However, on top of being friendly for the kids, what else do you do? I get the desire of wanting her to hurt as much as you do, of taking away your friendship to hurt her. I am questioning the same thing and I am constantly going back and forth on this.
Would it make her miss you if you take your friendship away? Yes, probably. That has happened in my situation. But then what? Once she misses your friendship then what do you do? Do you then be friendly again because she missed you? Then she won't miss you anymore! Argh!
So I say be slightly friendly and continue to show her how incredible you are. Show off that PMA and 180s! But don't give "extra", just be friendly neighbor and let her pursue your friendship.
Good luck Tarheel!
Hugs, Lisa
I'd love some feedback on what you mean by slightly friendly. Can you give an example or two? Can I suggest that it would be nice to talk soon or is that imposing? He seems to like it when I share something wonderful about our past although he doesn't bring it up. He seems to share his issues with his S and friends and want my advice but not comfortable with bring the same situation to us. Do I just ask him about his week? What is nice friendly?
I'm ICing myself- I recognize that a very big part of it is me still trying to control W's feelings- I want her to have a sense of loss (my friendship), I want her to hurt, I want her to regret her decision, I want her to recognize what she did was wrong (in my eyes). I don't want her to feel justified in her actions and decision by my remaining friendly with her. I want her to be held accountable for what she's put me through.
This is very insightful. I've come to a similar realization recently that all my pleading, crying, i-love-you-ing (in my head only for the last month) is actually an attempt to control my W. Same for all the ways in which I would explain to her that her decision is wrong. This feeling has to go. This anger directed at her for her rash and hurtful decision. It seems to mean that we haven't understood our wives yet, that we haven't come to the place where we love them in acceptance: the only place where they'll be looking for us -- or anyone.
When I met my wife some 10 years ago, she was very damaged. She had been cheated on, had made suicide attempts and was done with love. At the time, I could reach her because I was not involved in her past. I could listen without being defensive. I could offer tons of empathy. I was a break from the pain, a safe place. Now, I'm the bad past, so it's so much harder, but I need to go back to that place. When she says she wasn't happy, I don't need to remind her of her responsibility in the breakup, I need to validate. Ten years ago, I was offering an escape from the past to my wife, not a return to it. I was this breadth of fresh air she was looking for. The only way for us to win them back is to be that again. And the more sincere we are, the better our chances.
There's this scene in a movie (comedy) where the wife is lying in bed in the afternoon, curtains drawn. Her husband comes in and asks her what's wrong. She says "I'm depressed" to which he jovially replies "No you're not!" This, in a nutshell, is what we do wrong with our spouses when we deny their feelings or interpretations. It's not for us to tell them how they feel or what they go through. Or even to interpret what they lived. This is part of my resolutions if we ever get back together: no more arguing with her feelings because she's the only person who knows how she feels and that her interpretation of our R is precious information for me. I should welcome it.
So if I decide I'm done DBing, I move forward as a co-parent and that's it. No reason for small talk or treating her like a neighbor. However, if I decide I still want to continue with DB, I remain friendly with W.
The way I justify the DBing to me and my friends is that it promotes the same kind of behavior if I'm pursuing my W or if I'm moving on. Being cordial is simply the right thing to do. Let's remain proud of our behavior down the road. There's not only your W judging you in this, but many more including the kids. And your future self. If you're still only friendly to your W so she comes back, how friendly are you really? Do you really love her or, deep down, are you just trying to gain back control over her? What are the chances that you will be a better man after a few weeks or months back together? You won't be controlling anymore once she's back? Our separation puts us in the weakest position possible with our W, so it's a good time to test our limits. How much we can let go. Because we have no choice. Our W are gone. We need to reframe our relationship with them. They're much more like a new girl than our old partner. Perhaps that could help you: imagine how you would approach a brand new girl, how little control you would try to exert over her, knowing that you don't have any.
The day you'll be able to chitchat cordially with your W without any hope of winning her back, you'll be in a better place than ever.
Are you sure you're not a vet?
Are you sure you're not a vet?
You're asking me? Haha. No, I'm not. Until just over a month ago, I had never heard about any of this and it is what pains me most. I feel like I missed all the signs that my W was going to talk away, while they were so obvious. She told me she didn't like coming home, that she was detaching from me, that she didn't look forward to my return, she started going out with her new colleagues, etc. Yet, I never thought we would separate. What a fool. I'm not a vet, but I've been under fire already.
(sorry Tarheel - don't mean to hijack your thread! mine's
here for those interested in my situation)
Snapped out of my funk a little yesterday, so sent W a text apologizing for the lack of communication as I was dealing with some emotions and asked if she'd like to talk later in the day about kids/budget (she had proposed in her earlier email). She responded that she had been feeling overwhelmed and emotional too and that she'd drop the kids off later. She needed a 'me day' to relax and decompress (she seems to be racking those up!). She asked about meeting tonight instead.
Last night, she had to drop something off for the kids, so text me that she had left it on the front porch. I asked why she hadn't at least knocked and she said she didn't want to stir the dogs up and was tired. Then another text that she didn't think I wanted to talk to her anyways.
(2x4 alert)- I broke and responded that 'Truth is, I miss you.' She responded that she missed me too, but our current R is not healthy- up and down, back and forth. She then asked if I wanted to come by her new place for dinner this week or if that was too painful. I told her I'd think about it. We briefly talked about why we stopped going to MC with her reasoning being that she didn't feel like we were making progress. Not sure what she was expecting since we only went for a month.
As far as I know, she's still planning on meeting with an atty today to discuss our sitch. Will be interesting to see if she mentions moving forward with dissolution tonight when we meet to discuss kids/budget.
So in the past 2 weeks, I've heard that she misses me, still loves me and will always love me, hopes that we find our way back to each other eventually, has asked me over for dinner at her place...yet stopped going to MC and talks of proceeding with dissolution. I've got to accept that she needs this time to work on herself- if you love something, you've got to set it free...
Didn't end up meeting last night. I sent her a text yesterday afternoon, but didn't hear back until this morning- 'Wasn't in a good place to talk last night..try tonight?'
Mind reading that meeting with an attorney made chit real for her...
Tarheel, don't get sucked into her vortex. She may have been saying nice things to you and buttering you up with the dinner offer as a way of getting what she wants out of the dissolution. Don't believe anything they say. Remember that. Stay strong in yourself.
Tar
It does appear that she needs time and space to think and process everything. As much as it would hurt, she may need to go through a D and find herself again before she could come back to you. Or perhaps just staying separated from each other and leading separate lives without formally dissolving the M? I agree that it hurts to hear "I love you" and then "I want a divorce" at the same time.
It sounds likes she is not ready for MC. You cannot force that. But it would be good to slow down the process if you can. Then again, if she wants to D, you cannot stop that.
Finally, perhaps don't be available tonight, but later this week or this weekend. Gives you time to delay the process AND shows that you are moving forward/busy/GALing.
Tar
It does appear that she needs time and space to think and process everything. As much as it would hurt, she may need to go through a D and find herself again before she could come back to you. Or perhaps just staying separated from each other and leading separate lives without formally dissolving the M? I agree that it hurts to hear "I love you" and then "I want a divorce" at the same time.
It sounds likes she is not ready for MC. You cannot force that. But it would be good to slow down the process if you can. Then again, if she wants to D, you cannot stop that.
Finally, perhaps don't be available tonight, but later this week or this weekend. Gives you time to delay the process AND shows that you are moving forward/busy/GALing.
Wise advice. ^^^
Yesterday did not go well.
W and I made arrangements to meet at a restaurant last night to discuss kids/budget. Then W sends me an fyi text that she had taken 2 pieces of furniture from the house while I was at work. I get home to find not only those pieces of furniture gone, but some other things including a tv, table, clothes, dishware, odds and ends from drawers.....did not put me in a good mood, so probably should haven cancelled our meeting, but wanted to get it over with.
W then picks kids up later and waltzes in like nothing- didn't help my attitude. So later in the night, we meet at the restaurant and right away she asks me why we're even there. Um, it was her idea to meet and discuss these things...
So we were just bitter and snippy with each other discussing the kids schedule, even though when it came down to it, we were both in agreement. Moved on to budget and that didn't go much better. She kept throwing little digs in (intentional or not) about the atty telling her to take me for everything, but that's not what she wanted to do. I felt like she was holding that over me throughout our discussion. Yet again, did not help my attitude.
We eventually cooled off a little and were able to talk about our interaction going forward. I told her I wanted to be friendly with her, but was still battling some fresh emotions. She said she quit MC because she felt like she had nothing to give during our sessions (I agreed that I had seen that out of her).
We left with things still up in the air. These type of interactions clearly don't help our feelings towards each other. It didn't help that as soon as we sat down, I noticed a couple of the OM circle of friends sitting in a booth across from us. I think W noticed them too, as she moved her seat as to not face their direction.
So I'm currently drafting an email apologizing for my attitude towards her and telling her that I'd like to be able to work things out amicably. I need to overcome these resurfacing emotions and get along with her for our sake, for the kids sake and for any chance of finding our way back to each other down the road...
Why exactly are you apologizing?
Ha, that's the Tarheel I know: slipping then regretting it. It's almost endearing and I'm not even joking. We all have our difficulties and it makes us human. "There is a crack in everything, that's where the light comes in." - Leonard Cohen.
So I'm currently drafting an email apologizing for my attitude towards her and telling her that I'd like to be able to work things out amicably.
Speak with your actions. Don't apologize for the past, do better in the future. I bet apologizing gives you an unconscious clearance to do wrong again in the future. Imagine that your apology is your behavior in the next encounter.
Speak with your actions. Don't apologize for the past, do better in the future.
Great advice.
Why exactly are you apologizing?
Apologizing, or really just explaining, my attitude last night. I know better than to get sucked in like that. Stupid. In the moment, I was conscious of my past passive aggressive behaviors, so made the effort to take the subjects head on and tell her how I really felt. However, it just continued our tense interaction. It was clear from when we first sat down that neither of us were in the right place emotionally to have the conversation. I should have postponed it right then- stupid me.
Although I thought mentally I was doing well, her bailing on MC, moving things out, getting her own place and consulting with an atty feels like the band aid being pulled off again. All these negative emotions/feelings towards her that I had been working through during MC and dating her are now resurfacing. They feel justified in my mind, but I know acting upon them is not the right course of action.
I know her recent actions are needed if there is any chance for us in the future. I'm happy for her and I told her that. But emotions can be difficult to overcome at times.
To be honest, I'm more hung up and hurt by her R with OM than the failure of our M- I know where I/we went wrong and what the steps were to 'fix' the M. The A is what I'm left with unanswered questions on and is the source for a lot of my anger right now. The anger that I'm trying to push back down. When I twist it just right, her recent actions are her way of getting out of providing those answers to me.
My point exactly: You're apologizing so YOU feel better. And if you're explaining, you're losing.
As others have said, let your actions do the talking.
I bet apologizing gives you an unconscious clearance to do wrong again in the future. Imagine that your apology is your behavior in the next encounter.
Man, this ^^^ is awesome. I don't pretend to know Tar well enough to say that *he* does this necessarily, but I sure know a bunch of people who do!!! Classic.
Starsky
That's it, I'm making a decision right now- no more slipping up. I'm tired of looking back at my old posts and cringing.
From this point forward, friendly neighbor mode is in full effect.
No more emotional pressure on W, no more R talk, no more breaking down. I read threads on here of people less than 3mos into BD doing better than I am when it comes to dropping the rope.
I will not reach out to W unless it is kid or budget related. I will not let my emotions control my behavior towards her. If she wishes to proceed with a dissolution, I will be as cooperative as possible while maintaining a PMA.
From this point forward, if I post anything that goes against what I've just now posted, feel free to hunt me down and beat me with a real 2x4.
Tar. Reread and re-invigorate that mantra about 3x daily. Eventually it will take. Mine has.
I now make decisions based on what I want and what is good for my children. If I take a box of stuff over (food, spices, etc.) to her new place, it's to get it out of my hair, out of my pantry, and out of my head. I don't make a fuss, and typically do it when she's not there but SS15 is. My kids need to eat (her move out last weekend was far from complete when I returned on Sunday.)
Likewise with her books and stuff. I'm moving them out of the house and into the converted garage that was the family room (now empty.) I'm not doing her a favor. I'm recreating my home the way I want it (and giving her a timeline to get that stuff or risk losing it). If it makes her life easier, so be it. I understand my own motivations.
Budget is done. I'm divorced. I'm paying child support in advance of the court-ordered requirement (in effect 3 Nov) because I want to support my children. No need to go into "letter of the law" mode.
She now initiates convo. I never call, only text. I do allow and encourage the children to call whenever they are with me. I do not hover. When she asks them to give me the phone, I respond politely and succinctly. This is as dark as I can get with children. I don't even think "Why" anymore when I'm on the phone with her. Sometimes I still lose my detachment when I'm lying in bed, but not while interacting.
I say all this to let you know...you will get there. And her response will surprise you. My XW has already expressed surprise to her aunt at my decency and support while she recovers from surgery this week. Well, no need to be surprised. This is who I have always been. Utterly reliable. But now, in a different way.
Sorry if this seems like a threadjack. Got caught up a little there.
Tar,
Sending you a truck full of STFU juice and it's on me free of charge.
Dude...really...you've got to stop wanting to "explain" this and that to W. Zip it. Focus on you.
Just for clarity, what is the common understanding of "dropping the rope" around here? I thought it meant to give up on the M completely and file. Tar, in the context you used it, it seems like you're equating dropping the rope to DBing.
I feel like when I'm DBing, I'm holding onto the rope in the best way I can...giving our M the best chance to someday be R'd that I can, while the other 50% of the vote still rests in WAW's hands. And it is also maximizes the chance of WAW deciding to work on M, as most anti-DB instincts drive them further away. It still will be there decision either way, but don't make the BigD decision easier for them.
I consider dropping the rope two parts.
1) accepting your single life. Emotionally detaching from STBX and not letting their actions and words control your behavior, self worth, or appreciation for life. Focusing your energy on what you can control- YOU- vs trying to control their behavior, thoughts, or words.
2) usin your detached and accepting attitude to TRANSCEND any negative feelings and act in ways consistent with your CORE BELIEFS. So instead of reacting out of neediness, fear, hurt/anger, dismissal, impatience...you can act out of compassion, respect, good will, and understanding.
The better you drop the role the easier it is to DB as you aren't in your own way. Then you can effectively be and act like a better person to do the best job fighting for your M possible, all while protecting yourself from the roller coaster and enjoying the life you have been given.
Note- it may be a good idea to map out your core values, and think about how a person that felt that way would reply. It's amazing how much resentment can come through if we're not in a healthy state of mind. Work on your mind first and it will work out.
Did I nail it? Do I make the sticky board?
Still trying to do all that, but it's getting easier...
Card,
You ask a question that is frequent among newbies or fairly 'older' newbies.
Just for clarity, what is the common understanding of "dropping the rope" around here? I thought it meant to give up on the M completely and file.
Using the voice of Sophia from
The Golden Girls...
"Picture this...Sicily 1920's....you and W are all happy and sappy in the M. That is until one day, W ditches you and wants out of the M. You panic like Groucho Marx and want to hang onto to W. The rope is looped around W's waist and you're keeping her on a short leash through your fear, anxiety, and insecurity by constantly temp checking W with questions, comments, and whatnot or looking at her direction to see what SHE does or doesn't do.
Dropping the rope means you're not hitched to W's wagon to put it in a simplistic way. It means you are not emotionally attached to what W does or does NOT do. Dropping the rope means you don't care if W serves up Sicilian dish or Tuscany dish. You don't caaaaare if she serves it up in a marina sauce or not. Ravoli...okay! Penne..okay! Tortellini..okay! Whatever.
Capisce?"
Holding onto the rope isn't giving your M the best chance to be reconciled. It is the exact opposite. Drop it and things will shift. Trust me...I've seen it happen in nearly all of saved M.
It just means that you're not constantly looking at W's direction, trying to read tea leaves, or looking for smoke signals.
How on earth do you do that with kids???
(Sorry for the hijack, Tar, but you probably need to know this too)
I mean, OK, he's left ME and I'm still standing, and I'm fine. But in ways that matter very dearly to the kids, he's left them too, and I can't help but keep an eye on what he does and feel a necessity (which is different from an emotional need) to keep an eye on the rope because the kids come to ME with their hurt and sadness over his disappearing act rather than to him. I direct them back to him but I still have to comfort them.
Is there a difference?
Maybell- pretend it was something else he was doin that you agreed with. Say he had to visit a friend of his in the hospital with terminal cancer and the kids were upset he wasn't around to play. You wouldn't feel the same and wouldn't probably be supportive when the kids asked.
What's best for the children? I don't have an easy answer. Not sure if you say he's doig his best to take care of himself, and that he loves them, but validating that it is tough...then explaining to your H in a non guilting way that the children have needs and you wanted to let him know so this necessary seperation doesnt impact them more than needed, that your confident he can be on his own and a great dad as long as he is aware of the situation...that you will always be on a team to raise the children and recognize that you need to step up too to ensure they are ok and remain close with both parents, and if he has concerns about your parenting he can voice them.
Not sure if this is appropriate. I'm a newbie and haven't been faced with this. But I do think if you're actin out of compassion and with the best interests of all parties in mind it will be better than being coloured with resentment.
Ask a DB Coach!!! Or 25- are you around?
But in ways that matter very dearly to the kids, he's left them too, and I can't help but keep an eye on what he does and feel a necessity (which is different from an emotional need) to keep an eye on the rope because the kids come to ME with their hurt and sadness over his disappearing act rather than to him. I direct them back to him but I still have to comfort them.
Maybell, not 2 minutes after I read this did W drop the kids off at the house. D10 comes in complaining about 'Mommy said...she forgot again...as usual...' (That's becoming a common theme) She also then had 30 mins of homework to do at 9:30pm that W doesn't bother to ask about while she has the kids. All I can do is listen to them, try to emphasize and help out as best as I can. The kids will know that they will always have 1 reliable parent.
Oh, and I went over to a friend's house for dinner while W took the kids. GALing while avoiding contact with W!
Tarheel -- were you always the "more reliable" parent, or did things shift after BD and/or separation?
Thanks, Wonka. Sorry if this was a hi-jack, Tarheel.
I'd say we were both very reliable, but W was usually the one to volunteer at the kids' school, schedule doc appts, make sure they had what they needed....but since BD, she's dropped the ball. For ex, we have a shared calendar online for bills, kids and school. I don't know that she even checks it anymore. I've been making sure kids get picked up, dropped off, make doc appts..she wasn't even aware S15 had a doc appt the other day. When the kids go to her place, all they do is watch tv (they tell me). Then they come home with all kinds of homework. It's like she's in her own selfish la la land. Even her best friends have told me that I'm basically a single parent.
My point exactly: You're apologizing so YOU feel better. And if you're explaining, you're losing.
As others have said, let your actions do the talking.
All of this apology talk is very helpful for me. I was/am an over apologizer and my W would usually say that she didn't want my apologies. She rarely apologized herself so her's always felt genuine, mine probably didn't. Now I can see a better approach as quoted above.
I never thought about an apology just making me feel better, but I think that is my main motivation. I don't like people being upset at me so if I apologize I am freed of my guilt.
Good stuff too as I was thinking about apologizing for upsetting the W the other day. Now I won't. It would have just been an attempt to get her to reframe her views about me.
I can totally relate, Tarheel. I've been advised by my DB coach to pick up the ball if she drops it, but never be judgemental or critical. Guilt needs to come from herself, not from her husband.
Keep in mind that this advice may be tailored for my situation, but it seems like good overall advice that can apply in any situation where there are kids involved.
Guilt needs to come from herself, not from her husband.
I like that. We really need to get out of the way, otherwise everything that's wrong is blamed on us. Also, by helping we're enabling.
I'm skeptical of the "it's for the good of the kids" argument that is often brought up here. I'm an involved father, so don't get me wrong: I want the best for them. But it seems to me like we use it too easily to have an excuse to interfere again, even if it's helpful. My main concern is that we sustain the bad situation by making up for it. The WAS has to step up to their responsibilities and the sooner the better.
1st friendly neighbor interaction complete. W called earlier (was tempted to not answer) asking if she could stop by to take one of the dogs. We talked about her work function for a few mins while she was on her way.
Was only here for a few mins, but we got along fine as I helped load the dog crate. She even brought me a beer glass from the work function!
Kudos for sticking to the script! She'll likely warm up a little, but don't get your hopes too high right away. It's still a very long journey ahead of you, only you're going in the right direction.
Thanks Mozza. The negative interaction the other day really made me think on how I want to act towards W going forward. Here's what I've come to realize...
I can continue to express anger towards W, but what purpose does that serve? Feeling 'good' for about 2 mins? I'm a better person than that. I refuse to let my emotions control me. Anger going forward will only eat me up inside and doesn't benefit me in any way. So am I upset with W? Of course I am, but there's no need for that anger to rule my world. Hopefully at some point down the road W and I will be able to discuss things calmly and put it all behind us. But until then, I'm not going to let myself dwell in an angry, bitter state of mind.
Sounds excellent!
I'm no vet, but I would take it a step further: our anger comes from the wrong place. It might just be what got us where we are. It's a continuation of the behavior that lead to the break up, a confirmation through our actions. It's part of our desire to control our W and hence ourselves (quoting my shrink here).
The day my W walked out, I realized I had no control over her anymore. Just like that. I can't attract her by being angry at her. I can't be in a healthy relationship with her if I'm angry when she leaves me because she hurts too much (my sitch). Being nice to them is not about setting up a trap so that we revert to control and anger when they recommit. It's about changing ourselves and be a man only a fool would leave. It's about being genuinely not angry, just accepting their perspective.
I encourage you to read about anger management. Even if you don't have a problem, I find it surprisingly instructive.
I'm hosting a Halloween party for the kids and their friends this Sat at the house. W just text me asking if she was invited. Um....how do I respond??
She also asked if we could talk to the kids next week about their schedule since we have a lot going on this week. I want to be friendly, but if we end up D (which W seems to want to do), I don't plan on family time.
My opinion -- Don't shun her away from family time, especially if she seems interested (as it seems so in this case -- asking if she's invited).
More happy moments as a family = More points added on the side of keeping the family intact.
When it comes to your W making the final decision on which path to choose (D or no D), you want her to think back and remember that family time = happy time.
I would extend the invitation. I think it was 25yearsmlc that has relayed a story of taking a family vacation when their marriage was on the rocks. The message was that she acted "as if" and it was an enjoyable time. Later when reconciling the H specifically talked about the good time on the vacation as one of the reasons to work on the marriage.
Or I could be mixing stories. Either way, I would invite, act "as if" and keep in mind it is for your children not you and your relationship.
And wear a sexy Halloween costume!
haha
Anger is not bad, but you do need to examine why you feel that way and who owns what in the problem.
That will give you insight into changing the interaction. Which I have struggled with.
I have tended atm towards walking away, he is still saying I'm done wants no contact so his circular discussions are not for me. I have no reason to invest and be drawn into arguments which is what he seems to be trying to maintain
Yeah second the costume!
Looks like another thread is in my near future, so I'll wrap this one up with some random thoughts...
Not sure why, but I've been feeling a lot calmer and more at peace with the way things are lately. If we were to D tomorrow, my life wouldn't really change, other than having to split time with the kids. I'm becoming more detached as the days go on. Although I will admit that I think a big part of it is that I don't *think* OM is still in the picture. No way to know for sure, but it appears that W has finally realized she needs to come back down from la la land, face reality and work on herself.
I sent W an email earlier this week asking if she could watch the kids while I travel for work a few days next week. I never travel for work, so I'm sure that piqued her interest (I gave her very few details). Also extended a 'feel free to stop by' invite to the Halloween party this weekend that she inquired about. She responded with a play by play of her upcoming weekend- time/place/with who. Not sure why- habit? to prove she's not with OM? Said she may have time to swing by.
D10's school function last night and we all sat together (S15 saved her a seat, not me). Struggle with friendly vs friendship boundary, but I know that's something better demonstrated over time. Easy to just be friendly to a neighbor, harder when it's the mother of your 3 children and W of 15 yrs. She's coming by the house tonight to work on kids' costumes- things like that I go back and forth on. Should I ask that she take the kids to her place? Should I ask for her key and make her knock on the door?? Have the rest of her things packed up waiting for her???
W's bestfriend text us both last night asking if the plan was still for her to come over for Halloween and make a cake with the kids before going trick or treating (tradition). I responded that she was more than welcome to come over, but that I thought W was going to a friend's with S15. W didn't mention anything about it to me at D10's play later that evening. Not sure if she's waiting for me to invite her?
IC session the other night and he agreed with a lot of the feedback on here in that he thinks W wants me to make the D decision, evident by her repeated vague, conflicting messages. I've decided that I'm going to let her steer for a while. I have no plans on bringing up R or D, just to see if she takes any action these next few weeks. I'll continue to be friendly and see where she takes us. I suppose that keeps me in limbo for a while longer in respect to being M or proceeding towards D, but that thought/decision no longer runs my life.