Link to previous thread:
Inside My Chrysalis 4 A fifth thread. >sigh<
At the end of my previous thread a few of you pointed out that there are a lot of positives going on that I might be overlooking. Earlier in my growing stage I was much better at finding the positives but I began to feel I was painting a fantasy picture. Now I refuse to see the positive for fear it will give me false hope. I need to find a balance there.
I have my first IC appointment since BD today. First appointments make me anxious mostly because it requires explaining 18 years of history. I have a tendency to talk incessantly but I really need to listen more. Get more feedback and direction rather than talk it to death.
I'm grateful for all of your insights, support and commiseration. The journey continues... with hope.
I would assume most IC's are experts at knowing how to control a conversation in their office - either by them giving you advice when you need it or letting you spill your guts for as long as they see necessary. Just be yourself and let them worry about the dynamic. But when they talk, actively listen. Don't just wait for a break so you can start talking again.
I'm realizing that it's a skill to strike a balance on how to see the positives. Obviously you don't want to give yourself paper hopes that will fall apart and leave you miserable. But you shouldn't dwell on negative things, either. Maybe until you are more stable, focus on two things in your mentality about WAH:
1. Lightly enjoy the positives. Be aware of them but don't go over the top.
2. Dodge the negative thoughts. When something happens that bothers you, especially something mysterious or hazy like the V announcement, just make yourself ignore it as best you can.
If something really bad happens, like if he suddenly verbally accosts you for no good reason, or intentionally makes your D upset (not saying those things will happen, just hypothetical) then deal with it head on. But it seems like your anxiety (at least related to WAH) comes more from uncertainty and mind reading. Put practically, maybe your takeaway list from last night should have been:
- He did something sweet for D7 (flowers). He's a great dad and D7 is lucky to have two parents that love her.
- D7 was able to share a great accomplishment with both of her parents there, and celebrated with them together for an entire night.
- He shared something intimate from his IC sessions (book). Many people here would love to share that intimate of a thought with their WAS.
- We shared a few laughs.
- He will now have a lively, warm gift from you and D7 in his apartment
And that's it! No worries about V or worries about the future. That is a great night from someone in your sitch.
Oh Card. I really needed to read all that.
There really are some great take aways from last night and I am so grateful to you for pointing them out. Am I blind? What a great list! Thank you for always being there!
Just stopping by to celebrate your 5th thread. You've made yourself into a shining light around here, thank you for that!
What's happening on he job front?
Thank you, Maybell, what a wonderful thing to say. I'll continue to shine my light as best I can. It gets dim sometimes but I think that's human nature.
Job front:
Nada.
Got a call from Banana. They left a message. I'm sure it's to hire me and get me in for training this coming Friday.
Outside of that? Nothing. Even the lady at the temp agency won't call me back. She's submitted my resume, so she says, but a month later... nothing.
I've never had this problem before. I've always had TOO many jobs to choose from. It's all part of this journey.
Yesterday I had my first appointment with an IC. She's very nice and has tons of emotionally based experience under her belt, a PhD, experience at Gottman's Love Lab, etc. Here's hoping the price tag is worth it all.
The first session is usually a downloading of the backstory and that's pretty much what it was. She observed that it was clear we didn't feel safe enough to be vulnerable, to be able to connect outside of to-do lists, that feelings were not considered, etc. I have an appointment next week. We'll see
For the last month or so H has been coming over on Mondays to hang with D while I go to yoga. This means he has to leave work early which is a big thing to ask of him. I don't get into the nitty gritty of it, I just ask if he's available to watch D on Monday at 5:00 so I can make a 5:30 yoga class, if not, I have babysitters I can call but I want to give him the first right of refusal, so to speak. He has never once been late or said last-minute that he can't do it which is a huge 180 from pre BD. I really like this change in him.
I'm really trying to see changes he's making and there are many when I pay attention. He's MUCH less negative. More reliable. Less closed off (but I still give him space). I need to focus on these changes because they give me hope. Lots of hope.
Last night he asked if, since he didn't have a kitchen table in his apartment (why? i don't know) he could take a couple of our stools from our breakfast bar. I immediately took that as a sign that he's planning on coming home. Long shot? Oh probably. I'm just noting that he could just go out to Target and get a table and chairs. He was also just at Ikea getting D a bed but apparently didn't feel the need to get a table and chairs. Instead, he asked if he could "borrow" the stools. I said, "oh sure! That'll be fine. Absolutely."
It's possible I misread his motives. WDYT?
SS,
I'm glad you liked your IC. It sounds like it may be a good fit for you and that is a wonderful thing for YOU!
Yes, it seems like you've had some positive interactions with your h. Regardless of what the future holds, I think that is a good thing. You have a child together and you want her to see what healthy Rs look like and you can show that by example. Regarding bar stools.. Will your h want to R? No one knows. While I understand DBing is doing what works, the reality is that it is for you and can benefit all of your relationships.
I don't say this to be harsh, however every positive interaction isn't a sign of ...anything in particular. It's an opportunity to show you are making positive changes and are becoming the best SS you can be. I think your h said he felt he dead inside and he's not interested in a R right now. Perhaps that changes. However, for you and your D's benefit, please don't live your life in 6 month increments (I think your h said he knew he needed 6 months or something to that effect). Life is far too short and your D is this age only once. Don't let a projected time of when someone thinks their feelings *may* change dictate how you live.
I think you are doing really well. I know many people are ready for *something* and I know that is a challenging place to be. Hang in there!
If it raises your hopes, I would lightly acknowledge them but don't get too worked up. If you start doing that, the first "sign" you read as him leaning towards something permanent will send you quickly spiraling.
That is awesome about him being more reliable. Obviously our sitches are totally crappy, but there are some minor positives for the parties involved, usually. A little more space, a little more time on your hands when you don't have your child. This allows us to make changes, find ourselves, etc. I would still give my right leg to be permanently reconciled and swamped with marital and family obligations again, but it's always good to cling to the positives.
Btw, I'm kind of lecturing myself here because I'm in a really crappy spot tonight
Well, my husband left all his sweaters and jackets when he moved out in June. It was 37 degrees on Sunday morning and he is nowhere near home yet. Nor has he asked to collect his sweaters. When I offered to bag them up for him he got weird. So I think the lesson is, don't read in to anything.
^ what Maybell said. Could have just been easier/cheaper/whatever to borrow from you than go out and buy something. Maybe he's still looking for the right table. I doubt there's that much thought put into it about what it means down the line. Heck, my H said he was going to buy all new furniture to replace what I took and if we did get back together "we'd just have a lot of extra furniture," instead of waiting to see what happened. Who knows??
I was crushed when my W told me she was buying a bed for her apt. I'd already said she could have the bed as I said I liked our nice air bed more, anyway. I never liked our bed from the moment we saw it in the store years ago. Should have been firm about it. Anyway, I come to find out she had not liked it for years, either. So as soon as our house is sold, good riddance old bed
Last night he asked if, since he didn't have a kitchen table in his apartment (why? i don't know) he could take a couple of our stools from our breakfast bar. I immediately took that as a sign that he's planning on coming home. Long shot? Oh probably.
You know- I think the WASs do a much better job of living in the now than we do. I think by nature the LBS is focused on the future. The WAS just wants a plaace to sit and eat his TV dinner tonight.
Ok, you're all right (and never harsh Georgiabelle). Bar stools mean nothing significant.
I don't want to live in 6 month increments. I need to figure that out. It's not like M or the possibility of R is insignificant enough to just set aside like it's deciding if I should have chicken or shrimp for dinner. It's such a big thing that it's hard not to hope and plan for the future with hope and search through every tiny little hint and tweak it to support my cause.
Reality though is the NOW and the NOW is that I'm enjoying a nice glass of viognier. D is enjoying a purple bath (colored bath tabs make baths much more fun!) while reading and the 4 HUGE brown and black widow spiders I found in the backyard are now dead. All is good right now.
One breath at a time. Stop living in the future. Ok. I have new mottoes. Thank you.
I really want to thank you all for coming to my side when I really need you (or just pretty much always). People IRL ("in real life") get sick of talking about my sitch (and so do I) but you guys get it. I appreciate that so much.
I need to stop fixating and complaining. I have it pretty good considering. I'm going to focus on that for a while.
p.s. it's GREAT taking time to read a book NOT about repairing relationships. I'm reading The Lavender Ribbon and strangely the main character has my name. It's an unusual name and yet it's spelled the same way that I spell it which is also unusual. Strange. Strange but awesome.
Man I have to find the colored bath tabs. My D would freak out
So neat about the character in your book. My name is somewhat rare, too, so I know the feeling of finding someone with the same name and spelling. I've never read a book with the protagonist sharing my name, though! Enjoy
Ss
I believe we are mirror images of each other in the way we treated our spouse's. Especially w/their comments of being dead/broken inside. The only small difference I saw was I bragged bout her to everyone else but her. If you can allow yourself too, love your spouse. It says something about your character to be able to do that in spite of everything. Yeah this hurts, but pain is better than nothing. At least there are good memories to cling too. Doing the right thing is rarely easy but it's always worth it. Pray in for us!
SS -- I like your comment about living in the NOW, and that you're reading other books. You're right -- it's good to find activities that allow you to focus on other things and not fixate. You sound good and strong right now. Keep up the good work!
Ss, I'm glad you're relaxing with a novel rather than torturing yourself with relationship books.
here's a quote from Labug's old threads that I'm finding really resonates with me these days. It's a path to peace:
If your only reason for being here is to "Save My Marriage" you will be stuck in the same place a year, 2 years, forever. Lay down the save my marriage banner and pick up the one that says "Save Me"
If you're here to improve yourself, get rid of some old baggage and are open to the process you just might create a new life for yourself. It may or may not include your spouse but that might no matter.Labug and 25 were separated for 2+ years each. Mr.Bond more than 3 years. Crimson is piecing after actually divorcing. It's hard to remember, because marriage is such a huge part of our lives (especially as SAHMs), but it actually CAN be back-burnered and there will be fewer consequences than one might think. Especially in your and my situations, where both sides are being basically civil with one another.
The thing I'm coming to realize is that, the marriage being dead is a more thorough state of affairs than I credited before. If we come back together then it will truly be from the beginning. I can't "pick up" from where we are, because of my hurt about the affair, him leaving, and my resentment of the last however many years. For me to be re attracted to him we're going to have to start over and get to know each other as though we're new to one another. (Beginner's mind!) For that to happen, I'm first going to have to let go all the way.
I'm not there, but that's what I'm aiming for. I don't think any reconciliation can succeed otherwise, and I need it to survive in the now too. This, I think, is the meaning of Cadet's favorite quote about embracing the brutal truth of your situation while maintaining faith that you will prevail. ("You are already dead.")
Does that make any sense? This understanding is really new to me so I don't know if I'm being clear (and I recognize I'm going to slip up as I move forward).
SS06, have you read 'The Power of NOW' by Eckhart Tolle? I'm about 1/3 of the way through and several of the concepts sound similar to your above comments. I'd recommend it to everyone on here as it's helping me focus on what's happening 'now' as opposed to reliving the past or trying to picture what's going to happen with my sitch in the future.
Maybell, that is deep. I have realized before that if we do reconcile, it will be like starting a new relationship. But I've never seen detachment in that light. Detachment does many great things for us, but we also have to detach in order to start over, if it gets to that point. It is especially true for someone like you, where an A is involved.
Starsky often refers to the Stockdale Paradox. It's worth looking up.
labug, thanks for sharing. Wow, this is why I come to DB.com everyday. Here is a brief synopsis that I found:
You must retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties.
AND at the same time…
You must confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Maybell,
Thank you for posting that quote from labug. It's one of those gentle taps on the head that everyone needs to hear at some point in this process.
I can honestly say that part of this journey includes a mourning of the old comfort of our old marriage. In my situation it's a welcome experience but still uncomfortable. Our old marriage was BAD. The people we were because of that bad marriage were not good. Deep down though the people we want to be, separately and hopefully within a new marriage, are powerfully amazing.
The discomfort of putting to rest the old marriage inevitably forces me to look forward yet looking too far forward gets me in trouble and takes the focus away from the NOW (Yes, Tarheel, I've read The Power of NOW. It's so powerful that I could only read one or two pages at a time. I should re-read it. I love Tolle!!!).
I am an efficient task master by nature. Patience, gray areas and leaning into discomfort are huge challenges but I welcome them and I am grateful for the gift of time in order to process my incremental growth in my own way.
I like measuring progress. Often that means "how much further do I need to go?" which, in a journey like this one, doesn't help much because the reality is, it's never ending. It's a journey that has no destination; a true depiction of the adage "the journey is the destination". This is a welcome realization and quite a 180 for me.
This isn't so much about "getting him back" or "when will he come home" though that's often what I write about and complain about. My focus really is, "When will I get to share and practice all I'm learning?", "I can't wait to practice my 'turning towards' and all of that stuff.
I'm realizing only now that I do get to practice my empathy and acceptance skills by simply living in the NOW. Similar in concept to Cadet's "you're already dead" point but I choose to see it more as, "you're already alive" because often I find myself thinking my life won't begin until he comes back. It's just not true.
I am already living. I am already alive. I don't need (or I shouldn't need) him or anyone else to be in my life for me to live my life well. It's mine. Yes, I want to share it with H and have him share his with me but right now I am already alive.
On that note, I will go and do that. Live. NOW.
Yet another great thread.
I second your impatience- for me its not so much being anxious to have her back as it is to actually use the knowledge and skills I've developed, and to learn with her (or someone else). But I have also been looking for ways to practice my skills elsewhere- at work, in public, etc. Some of it requires a SO, though. I'm don't want to get too deep into identifying and fulfilling another woman's ENs
We can and should use all the skills we're learning in every R in our live's, especially with our children. Practicing what we've learned can change their lives in a very positive way.
Perhaps our greatest gift as a parent, breaking the cycle. Maybe that's why we're here.
labug, YES!
I used skills I've recently learned just today with a friend. It was great. She texted saying "Did you hear about yesterday with D? Can we talk?" I immediately got worried. I'd heard nothing about anything regarding my D or hers. I started to sweat and prepare a defense. A defense of what I am not sure but I texted back, "sure, gimme 10 and I'll call you". I took this time to breathe, prepare myself for listening, to stop mind reading, to remember to validate and not instinctively defend pansies with an ooze.
Sure enough, I called her and it was NOT what I made up in my head it was about (again, failed mindreading, wonder when I'll stop that for good). I validated, listened and if I hadn't it could have been ugly and a whole lot less productive.
Wow, I'm so grateful I had that opportunity to practice! All this stuff works! It's not just psychobabble! I knew it!!!
On another note, you're reading a post written by Banana Republic's latest employee. yay. No really, I'm trying not to bash it. I'm seeing it as a way to get me out of the house and meet people. This job doesn't define my value, right?
Congratulations on the job!
Don't bash it. Look at it this way: You would not choose to have your H leave you, but the fact that he did has pushed you through doors that you didn't even know to look for, such as learning the skills to listen to your friend.
Now you have this job that you wouldn't have chosen. What doors will it open for you? Will you go through them with the same enthusiasm you've shown here?
The essence of feel the fear and do it anyway is to be curious about the unexpected blessings that come from embracing adversity. It's kind of cool to find yourself in uncharted territory. Isn't it a nice change from thinking you know what the next ten years are going to look like? Anything is possible from here.
(You know sometimes I'm pep-talking myself when I say these things... :D)
Congrats on the job! It may lead to new opportunities, or not, but it will definitely teach you something if you let it.
you're reading a post written by Banana Republic's latest employee. yay. No really, I'm trying not to bash it. I'm seeing it as a way to get me out of the house and meet people. This job doesn't define my value, right?
An honest day of work is an honest day of work.
The externals define our value only as much as we invite that to happen. You get to decide your worth.
I'm happy for you that putting the brakes on mind-reading was helpful. It works only...always.
That's been my experience.
Let's see, you started with a dying, toxic marriage. From there, you have learned and acknowledged your role in its death, worked on yourself, have begun applying your new self-aware, non-mind-reading, validating personality. That's way better than the average LBS, I'd surmise.
So I'd say keep doing what you're doing: Take what life gives you, acknowledge any known realities of the sitch (good and bad, but no mind reading) and make the best of it.
Also, any BR discounts for your DB friends would be appreciated. I'm in the market for some new slim-fit pants. I'm getting ready to transition to the customer-side of our business, which means no more jeans 2-3 days a week
Congrats on the new job Ss! Embrace it and make the best of it!
You have such great insights into yourself and your past relationship! I truly hope you get to use these new skills you are learning to make your M even better.
Big hugs,
Lisa
And yet more congratulations on the new job Ss.
A new window of opportunity.
I hope to be following your lead. I went for interviews yesterday which I think went well.
(Not so) Old Dog xx
Congratulations on the job .
Congratulations on the job!
Don't bash it. Look at it this way: You would not choose to have your H leave you, but the fact that he did has pushed you through doors that you didn't even know to look for, such as learning the skills to listen to your friend.
Now you have this job that you wouldn't have chosen. What doors will it open for you? Will you go through them with the same enthusiasm you've shown here?
The essence of feel the fear and do it anyway is to be curious about the unexpected blessings that come from embracing adversity. It's kind of cool to find yourself in uncharted territory. Isn't it a nice change from thinking you know what the next ten years are going to look like? Anything is possible from here.
(You know sometimes I'm pep-talking myself when I say these things... :D)
I was thinking "I wonder if Maybell's read this to herself?"
It's H's weekend with D. We all spent the day together yesterday at the pumpkin patch and he invited me to see BoxTrolls. His first invitation to me since BD. I didn't read too much into it because it was likely D's idea.
I talked to D tonight before bed. She had an amazing day. They hung out with old friends of H's from when he was a kid. They have triplet daughters just 1 year older than D.
Something hit me while i was talking to her and I started to cry. Ugh. CRY while on the phone with D. I freaking hate this limbo.
It's only human to want to know answers, to want to talk through a limbo situation. I feel like it's moderate torture to sit around waiting for someone to make notice of you and your changes when things like CHILDREN and my heart and our lives are hanging in the balance. Waiting around is NOT humane! I just want to kick H and tell him "DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING?" He's making me hate him.
I realize that compared to many other people's situations, mine is relatively straight forward (no clear, defined MLC or OW, we get along ok, we're great coparents, etc) so saying I am starting to hate my H after all many of your H's and W's have done and said to all of you makes me feel like I'm a spoiled princess but it's still painful. Excruciating to sit around waiting for him to decide whether or not I'm worthy while I hone and perfect my relationship skills with a tiny bit of hope to get to share them with HIM for the sake of our family!!
I could scream. I am so over this [censored] but there's nothing I can do to speed it up or for H to see that he's wasting away a perfectly good W and great times with our family. Why can't get "find himself" while living at home?! Get over his anger while living at home?! I have to. I have to do all that while not getting to escape my life.
I need to find something harmless to throw around for a bit.
I hear you, Ss.
It's all really hard. But so worth the work you are putting in.
Hugs to you.
Ugh, I hate that i have these periodic tantrums. And there's no better way to describe what they are. They are childish, immature tantrums of me basically saying "this isn't fair" and "but I don't want it this way"!!!
Claire, I know you're right. I do. I really, really do but how do we know it's worth all this work? How? What if it's not?
Because YOU are surely worth all this work. DB may or may not save your marriage. ..but it will definitely save you!
Ss, take a look at my last week and my overall sitch. It is nearly identical. No MLC, no OM, we're friendly, coparenting great. Yet I have become angry at WAW after she has been increasingly cold and short. I've had to distance myself just to preserve my love.
Not that I'd wish there was OM in the picture, but in some ways this feels worse. The solutions are right there on the table, 100% salvageable M. The only thing holding it back is the decision of the WAS. And we all deserve that chance (LBS, kids and even WAS). Why not try, WAS??? So I know exactly how you feel. I don't think you're being a "princess", unless I'm also being one
Because YOU are surely worth all this work. DB may or may not save your marriage. ..but it will definitely save you!
thumbs up, claire
Hi, Ss,
Just getting caught up on you. Tough to have a good visit with H and then go back to the solitude and confusion. I completely understand that.
This:
Excruciating to sit around waiting for him to decide whether or not I'm worthy while I hone and perfect my relationship skills with a tiny bit of hope to get to share them with HIM for the sake of our family!!
It reads to me, that your focus is still very much on H.
Not one drop of your worth depends on another person's decision. Not one.
You are a special one, Ss. Your intuition, humor, tenacity....you're really doing great with a horrible set of circumstances.
The R skills, and all the self-work you are doing, really needs to be for you. Regardless of H.
The key in saving your sanity, is to focus on you. Work hard to get more detached. Use this time to discover....not only R skills, but who is Ss? Dig deep and learn about YOU. It is so important.
It takes time. Keep going, Ss. You'll get there, I know it.
((((Hugs))))
Ss I understand totally your frustration! I think u, Card, and I are all peas in a pod. Just keep in mind the kids will benefit from the changes too. Check out mythread and you'll see the similarities. Did you get the accusatory "I lost myself" from H? I know that has bothered me. As if i am responsible for that. I even encouraged her to spend time with friends. j
My H also said no OW but signs indicate otherwise. Don't assume you know everything. Look at the number of people on this board who started off believing the same thing, only to discover later that someone else (or just the idea of someone else) was involved.
Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, just trying to be realistic.
In my case, all of our issues are very "fixable" according to MC. But those are just the issues he's admitting to.
Bottom line: we can't know the whole story, so we just have to move forward with our own changes for our own sakes and hope for the best.
What Claire and Shining said. Maybe what Ahoy said, too, but I don't know... there was a lot of stuff you said you found on the computer shortly after BD that you've never gone back to, so I'm not sure what conclusion you came to about that.
But either way, you shouldn't be waiting around. You have a life of your own, not just one that fits into his spaces! It may be hard to come to believe that, but it is true. Marriage should be between two whole people, not two half people. Treat yourself like a whole person.
But I totally get the impatience, too. Sending you good vibes.
Maybell, your memory is amazing. Yes, there were things I found on his computer soon after BD. I addressed some of it but not all of it and of course according to him, it's nothing. I am not sure to do with all that. I guess it's something I plan to address perhaps in MC should we ever get there? I don't know. His apparent porn addiction was written off as my fault just as everything else. I guess I put all that away because I don't know how to deal with it all.
I think so much of what I struggle with is the duality of being very ME focused for a while, feeling good, strong and detached and then suddenly, out of no where, I'm very H centric and feeling desperate again.
I definitely fight the process. I do that with a lot of things in my life. I'm notorious for fighting things against my control (duh). I need to put my head down and pull out a 180 in this department.
It's like I get itchy or antsy for progress I can measure. Something I can put on a graph and submit for peer review (oy, having parents as academics is really showing huh?). What can I say, I like results. Who doesn't? And I"m always in a hurry. Wonder why that is. I guess part of me feels like I'm always behind. Not just in things to do but in where I am in my life.
My work is not done. Clearly. I am so grateful for all of you who come and tell me to stop tantruming and to ACCEPT and to DETACH and grow for ME. You'd think that being ME focused would be easy but it's not because a lot of what i see I don't like. At all.
I addressed some of it but not all of it and of course according to him, it's nothing. I am not sure to do with all that. I guess it's something I plan to address perhaps in MC should we ever get there? I don't know. His apparent porn addiction was written off as my fault just as everything else. I guess I put all that away because I don't know how to deal with it all.
Ss - I think you should consider addressing this with
your IC. If nothing else he/she can help explain your H's mindset with this and definitely make you feel confident that a porn addiction is not the result of anything you did or didn't do. Just my 2 cents.
Also whether or not it's a porn "addiction" or just more than you're comfortable with. I've never brought it up with any IC/MC so I have no idea where that line might be. When I protested his use of it with my H, he just said very gently and calmly that porn was something all guys did and that it wasn't reasonable for me to expect him to stop. I didn't have enough nerve to pursue my perspective of the topic, and it got swallowed up with how huge our other problems were, so I never investigated the truth of his claim. If you get some insight, please share it!!
I'm not going to tell you to stop tantruming, because just as the 2x4s are helpful so are the broken places. If you were upbeat and enthusiastic all the time there'd be nothing to help you with.
raliced, I will bring it up today. Thank you for the suggestion.
Maybell, I'm happy to provide ample opportunity for people to help me. LOL And let's face it, I'm a pretty enthusiastic tantrummer so I have that at least.
As far as the porn goes, I'm not averse to it. Hey, it can even be fun but the sheer amount and level of the porn I found... hours and hours and hours and hours every single day while avoiding his family or claiming to "work". Plus, that lead to emails to escorts (that date back as far as 2009!!), which H did not deny but excused by saying he'd "never met up with anyone" (but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying) and again, my fault because we didn't have sex enough. Ugh. I had effectively put all that away and thinking about it all again is painful.
I know without a doubt that my H's possible porn addiction is NOT my fault. It bordered (borders?) on obsessive or compulsive and that's frightening. I don't see him ever admitting his porn viewing is at an unhealthy level. I just don't see that ever happening. I've been wrong before though and sometimes H surprises me.
One step at a time. I'm afraid to face it all at one time. What if I drown? And I'm an ex-college swimmer... but the tide is too big some days.
When D11 was about six months old and H was unemployed (not his fault... his company had been sold and he had stayed till the bitter end to collect the severance), he was supposedly in the basement "job hunting." He had stepped away and I went down to move some laundry over and saw that he had forgotten to close a window... I immediately confronted him about it, and it led to a really interesting conversation about our mutual dissatisfaction with our sex life. Things got much better after that. It was great to be open and I think that day was good for both of us. (I guarantee he has no memory of that day anymore).
Interestingly, after BD -- maybe even after he moved out, I'm not sure -- he said that that brief period of unemployment was really upsetting and stressful for him. I never knew. I had so much confidence in him, and the severance was so generous, that I saw it as a real blessing in how much time I got with him with our new baby. Now that I know that, and tie it to that porn incident that he probably doesn't even remember, I see how THOSE two things were linked. The fact that we were both dissatisfied with our sex life probably prompted him seeking it out, but his insecurity with where his career was at that time probably fueled the volume.
Hmmm... I wonder if I should process that for now?
Didn't you mention your H is between projects and has been for a bit?
I see how THOSE two things were linked. The fact that we were both dissatisfied with our sex life probably prompted him seeking it out, but his insecurity with where his career was at that time probably fueled the volume.
Yes, those 2 things are most likely linked.
Maybell,
My H is frequently between projects and has had a lull since completing a big project in February. He doesn't keep me too apprized of his work but as far as I know he has nothing going on.
I guess I'm naive or haven't had enough coffee... but what does his insecurity with his career have to do with a significant volume of porn? How are the two linked at all?
I think its a guy thing. Something about potency.
Ss, there are many things you need to work on. And you have identified a lot and have been working on them. But his porn problem is HIS problem, not yours. And you can't address that until he has bought in on reconciliation. At that point I hope he would agree that it is necessary to eliminate porn from his life. And that is only the first step in a long journey of a recovery.
I speak from experience. I had a lingering porn problem for years. I blamed my W for it due to lack of sex. "If only she would have sex with me regularly, I would stop." For one, I had the problem from when I was a teenager, long before I met W. Secondly, she did become regularly intimate with me, and guess what? The porn continued. She couldn't fix it. It was my problem to fix. Now you could
support his recovery, eventually. My W supported me through a fight against porn years ago and I had my best porn-free period of my adult life (maybe 6 months). But I never really got over it and it came back. It took this crisis to show me how porn played a hand in the destruction of my M. I had convinced myself "What she doesn't know won't hurt her", and I successfully hid it for the last 5 years. But it hurt her (and me) tremendously. It killed our intimacy in the bedroom. It was about sensation, not love or closeness. It's only been a couple of months since I really stopped, but it feels different this time. I hate the idea of porn because M is so much more important to me. But I know I will need to be forever vigilant. And I'm proving that lack of sex is a bunk excuse for porn. I am getting NO action right now yet I am in the most porn-free mindset of my life
Regarding your H, don't even think about that problem right now. I don't know how addicted he is, but some H's (myself included, in the past) fantasize about living alone and not having to hide porn. They think the guilt will disappear, and it will be even more fulfilling than ever. If that is him, he will quickly learn that it will be even more empty than before. That is what happened to me. After she moved out, I thought "well at least I don't have to hide this anymore". It didn't take long for me to feel more disgusted than ever. I found some great porn-quitting resources, learned about just how damaging it is to the intimacy of a M, and I was finally ready to kick the habit. Like I said, with how long I've had this problem (14 years?), it will probably take me 2 years to feel truly free, but I feel like I'm on the way there.
Sorry, spilling my guts a little here, but felt this perspective could be useful for you and any other W of a porn addict.
Hi Ss,
Actually our sitch's aren't that far different. There's no clear MLC or OW - though I wonder about both. And actually it was reading your sitch early on that made me wonder if porn had played a role in my sitch than I realised. At some point my H told me he viewed porn every other day. In my attempt to be a progressive, liberal woman I didn't discourage it (though it does bother me to some extent).
Actually I suggested we watch it together sometimes. That was enlightening glimpse into the male brain. We'd be sitting there, I'm reading the news or thinking about something totally different and seemingly out of nowhere H would say "Do you want to watch porn?" Er...no?! Needless to say that only happened a couple of times.
We never did talk about it from the context of - hey, do you think this might be impacting our sex life? I've definitely tabled this for a MC session should we ever get there. I did raise it with IC. She said it was impossible to know what counts as too much use - no reliable studies. Her perspective was that porn damages relationships by making the user over stimulated by visual images. Since real life sex isn't like that, it just becomes disappointing. He stopped initiating. So yeah...we were both left wanting. I'd love to hear what your IC says about it.
And *I AM* an academic so you can see how that plays out for me. Totally with you on wanting to be able to measure progress.
Hang in there. We can do this.
ganb8te, I could see your IC's point of view that it may depend on quantity. But it is such a slippery slope. Even if we did have hard data on "how much is too much", why would a best-intentioned H, who is aware of the damaging effects, cool-headedly decide to step foot on the slope at all? I say "cool-headedly" because we make terrible decisions when we are "under the influence" of porn. Here is an example of me slipping down the slope, which has happened many times in the past:
- I'm doing it once a month, that's not bad.
- I'm already doing it once a month, so twice a month isn't that different.
- What's the difference between every other week and every week? Not much!
- Okay, I've already done it once this week, but it's not like one more time this week will make a difference.
It's either that, or I break a porn-free streak once and then see no reason not to do it everyday.
The IC is right - we have no data to show exactly how much is harmful in any given relationship. But we DO know that M harms intimacy when used in excess (whatever "excess" is). So the most foolproof solution is to stop. Not saying it's easy to stop, but it's the best path to choose. Trying to determine how much porn is okay for a porn addict is like an alcoholic deciding how many drinks is too much.
There is nothing progressive about porn, if your goal is intimacy. It has no good place in the vast majority of M's. JMO, though.
H came over last night and we talked for about 4.5 hours. I did not initiate it.
He talked about how he is trying to find ways to rewrite some of the repetitive "tapes" in his head of me saying things to him that made him feel inadequate. Things like how I always said he wasn't a good traveler or a bad driver. He said that things like that kept him from doing things he has always wanted to do like travel to see the fall leaves which is why he is going on November 1 to NY. He wants to show himself that he is NOT a bad traveler and reframe that sentiment in his head. Same thing with driving and many other things.
He said that in order for him to come back with both feet into the marriage he would need to KNOW 100% that there will be ZERO triggers for him. That things would be NOTHING even close to how they were before.
I told him I could commit to the later but the former was completely out of my control and the standard was too high. !00% is impossible and I'm only human.
He said, "well that's the rub because that's what I have to have".
Okay.
He also said that he has to know 100% that the marriage will work before coming back because once he moves back in, moving back out will be too hard on D and he's not willing to do that so he wouldn't consider returning until he KNEW with absolute certainty that the marriage will be a success.
I also can't make that happen.
He is working on many things about himself. He's holding less in so he has less to be resentful about going forward but he's still holding on to a lot of pain and resentment about the past.
He said there's no way to wipe the slate clean. Just no way.
He said that if he comes back it wouldn't be a day of celebration but a somber day because he'd have to wait for happiness whereas he could just simply be happy immediately if he got a divorce and put a "steak in the heart of the marriage".
I feel like these impossible expectations are only asking for failure. I told him that and he said that he knows that, which is why he doesn't think it'll work.
He also said though that many of the things he's working through are only supporting his desire for a divorce but that he also knows that the night is always darkest before the dawn. Whatever that really means.
He admitted that some of what he's working through has to do with his parents (feelings of inadequacy among many other things), his own lack of self care and then the stuff I did to him during our marriage and the pain of that.
I feel like I'm being held accountable for ALL of that pain. I can definitely be mindful of sensitivities that have developed from his childhood issues and his own, self created insecurities, but I shouldn't be held responsible for triggering all of them. How do I handle that?
I can't reverse the pain he has from outside of our marriage or whatever came before. There aren't many limits to my commitment to getting this marriage back but I cannot fix things I did not break and to be required to is unfair and unreasonable.
After I asked, he said he did see "some" of his role in our marriage demise but he also said he felt like he gave me everything he could but that I let him down the last year by not turning around the marriage as I'd promised.
I told him I didn't know how. That I tried and I was doing what I knew how to do very slowly and carefully but it clearly wasn't fast enough and intense enough to save anything. I told him I was angry that it was my sole responsibility to change the direction of the marriage. He said he'd done all he could and could barely make it through the day over the last year so it could only be me.
I told him that I just wanted the opportunity. Just the opportunity to work on it with him. Totally pursuing, I know, but he needed to hear that and I'm starting to wonder if some of these DB principles just don't work.
He specifically said to me that my up beat attitude and friendliness towards him and his in return was in no way any indication that he was considering a future together or anything other than keeping things cordial for our D.
Great.
I don't know where to go from here. He wants the impossible and I'm supposed to provide it alone and perfectly.
He's getting his vasectomy today.
Wow Ss - this seems like a tough day for a lot of us. I'm glad that you realize that he is asking for the impossible. Much as you would like him to come home - I don't think you should agree to any of that.
In any of this discussion was Marriage counseling mentioned?
Ss - you have done a lot of hard self reflection and you seem very willing to acknowledge your issues in the marriage. However - some of the things that you have written lately certainly make it sound like your H has his own major issues. Emailing escorts from craigslist is not a small thing after all.
Hang in there.
yes, aliced, I mentioned MC briefly but he said he's not even there yet. That he's not even thinking about the marriage, that he's really working on himself and that it's freeing to not have to think about me or the marriage.
Emailing escorts is indeed not a small thing but we can't even get to the point of working through that yet... he's very focused on what *I* have done wrong and how that has made him into a shell of a man and how much I took from him over the years.
I was not a great wife. Often I wasn't even a good wife. I'm not evil though. I'm not.
Ss, I will try to write more tonight but I'm sorry you are here. There is a lot of WAS script in what he said... and a lot of it shows that it is much more about him and his unrealistic expectations of what marriage is like or means. A marriage where you have a guarantee that your spouse will never say or do anything to piss you off and you will magically be happy all the time?
Yeah, good luck with that.
I think we need to turn this forum into a match making site because at least it is full of people who are trying to have a realistic view of themselves and relationships!! (We could set up the WAS's with each other too, and see how much "better" it turns out for them next time.
You can't save someone from himself...
hope this makes sense.
(((Hugs)))
Claire, love the matchmaking idea.
Ss, one thing glaringly apparent to me was that there was not one moment about what he wanted to give you in that whole long grueling "conversation." I'm sorry, that wasn't a conversation, that was a ransom demand. Or an extortion attempt. Good for you for doing the hard work of staying calm and not giving him any further ammunition.
You may be in for a long haul. but if he's cleaning himself up now then maybe at some point he will realize what a marriage is really made of and will come to work with you, rather than make grossly unfair demands.
The stars are frowning on relationships today, friend, but that's just today. Hugs to you.
Hi Ss,
Sorry for the long response. I had a lot of thoughts while reading your comment.
No, you are not evil. He could still be in the early stages of his fog. It could be a very long haul. Look at some of the reconciled M's around here... many went through 1.5-2.5 year S's, most of that time waiting on the WAS to be ready to work.
He also said that he has to know 100% that the marriage will work before coming back because once he moves back in, moving back out will be too hard on D and he's not willing to do that so he wouldn't consider returning until he KNEW with absolute certainty that the marriage will be a success.
I also can't make that happen.
You can't, but I'd imagine you guys would need quite a bit of time piecing before a move-in happened.
Do you feel like you have done everything you can so far to address and change those issues inside of you that he speaks of? I'm not asking if you've fully corrected them already, just making sure you believe you're walking the right path. Was anything he said new to the self-change section of your 180 list, perhaps something you forgot about? Don't lose sight of what should be your primary focus right now: YOU. Even D7 is a close second, because she needs a healthy mom, just like a child on a depressurized airplane needs their parent to have their oxygen mask on before the child has their own.
But while you do have a lot of work to do, and you had a large hand in the destruction of your M, you and I all know he played a large part, too. You are correct to not promise immediate perfection, all with only changes from you. He needs to change a lot, too. And that is where DB comes in. You can't convince him of that, he needs to learn it. You can definitely suggest it to him - when he's ready to hear it! You will know when those moments are happening, like when...
I told him that I just wanted the opportunity. Just the opportunity to work on it with him. Totally pursuing, I know, but he needed to hear that and I'm starting to wonder if some of these DB principles just don't work.
"No R talk" doesn't mean "no R talk ever again". It is "No R talk until WAS is ready". It sounds like your WAH was ready to hear that - it was in the middle of a long R talk that HE initiated. There may have been a better way to phrase it to sound less needy or demanding (ideas anyone?), but I don't think the content of the message was inappropriate in this context.
DB doesn't promise to save your M. It can't. No system or technique can. It does give us a much better chance than most techniques, though. I think when we are in the cold WAS stage (like most of us), it is cut-and-dry: 180, GAL, detach, Sandi's 37, etc. It seems like it becomes more personalized when the WAS initiates R talk (are they still cold? hopeful? angry? positive? remorseful? There is no one-size fits all for R talk with these different WAS's), and then lots of things change with the plan when reconciliation/piecing begins.
Also, from what you're telling us from your convo last night, your WAH is asking for exactly what DB asks of you (aside from the over-demanding expectations of it all being on you):
- Permanent changes in YOU, relating to behaviors and traits that contributed to the demise of the M
- Space for him to get out of his fog, to figure out what he wants, to make his own changes, etc.
It STINKS that he still wants that space and is not interested right now in joining you in building the M, but if he's not ready, he's not ready. Nothing you, I, any C, any book or any internet forum can do about that. Maybe he just needs more time to realize that what he's asking is unreasonable, but that it's about progress, not perfection. If you are indeed NOT a monster, then he also has a LOT to realize about what he needs to change in himself. If he thinks you are the problem and killing the M will make him happy forever, then he is doomed to repeat history with his next S. I also don't know what chance you guys would stand if he did come back to you right now with that attitude and belief. At first you might be relieved to have your H back, but he would continue to be disappointed (if he's looking for perfection, not progress) and eventually you would become disheartened. You would KNOW there are things he needs to change but he refuses to. That would quickly get old. Here's hoping he pulls his head out of his ***.
I appreciate all the support. I do.
I just don't know how I'm supposed to wait for someone to realize they can't have what they're asking.
The thing that is hitting me really hard is that the way he feels right now is precisely how I felt two years ago and TOLD HIM and he did NOTHING. NOTHING!!!!! I just shrugged and said, I don't know what to do.
I feel like his perspective is skewed. Is there no catharsis in working with someone to repair something? Will that not help him at all?! Sure, maybe not now but eventually? It would help me to be able to know that I can lean on him, rely on him, be vulnerable with him, build something strong with him. Is that not helpful to him? I know he doesn't trust it now, I get that but what about down the road?
I'm afraid, guys.
Im afraid that all the things he's going to say and do during this separation are going to make me hate him. I'm afraid that the separation, the part that's supposed to help us heal, is going to kill us. I can't pick up these pieces all alone.
I know he has healing to do. I get that. I don't want to take that away from him. I don't. I need that time, too. Lots of it.
Maybell, will he ever be want to give me something? Will he ever see marriage as a team effort?
I hurt so much. My heart just aches. My stomach hurts and I can't stop crying because how do you find common ground with expectations of a miracle?
I'm lost. and sad and frustrated and scared.
I know precisely how you feel. I really do. The last time I blew up at my H 2 or 3 weeks ago, my having felt ready to walk a few years ago was one of the things I threw at him. So I really know a lot about how you feel.
Will he ever see marriage as a team effort? I have no idea. I don't know that for my sitch either. I hope so.
He did give you a lot of information about his state of mind, though. Somebody else better qualified will come and talk to you about the details. I will say: he has given you context for how friendly he's been, and he's given you more information than he may realize about where his head is.
Your current project now is to double down on the detaching and to find something wild & crazy to do to make you feel more like yourself. I wish we were allowed to post books that make good supplemental reading to DR, but find the ones that are self-help, not relationship books, and learn about detachment and boundaries. Get used to thinking of him as a distant cousin (I know how hard this is with shared finances and young child, but do your best).
Time is your best ally here. Somebody said enough time has to pass for them to forget what the old R was like. And maybe you (and I) do too. This afternoon I was thinking of something frustrating my H did that I hadn't yet mentioned. Now that I think about it... What's the point of that? It's just a barrier to a good R. If we reconcile and it's still important I can address it in the future.
Your sitch is much fresher than you realize. I wish I could rush it for you but it's best not to.
YOU WILL BE WELL. Believe it.
I don't know if this is the right time for you or not...
Going Dark
Deep stuff from Sparky in that thread:
If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.
If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.
He did give you a lot of information about his state of mind, though. Somebody else better qualified will come and talk to you about the details. I will say: he has given you context for how friendly he's been, and he's given you more information than he may realize about where his head is.
He did? I'm so in my own fog right now I don't see any context for how friendly he has been or any new information. I really need help interpreting because I can't think this out.
I know I need to let him go through this. I know it deep down but in that same place I am not good at letting go, at accepting. Maybe I need a book on acceptance. Frankly, I'm so tired of reading.
He even threw that at me. He said he wants someone who can be nice to him without having to read 10 self-help books and tons of therapy to do it. ouch. And then buttoned that up with "I'm just being honest"
I really have never felt this kind of pain before and I just want it to stop. I am short with my D because I can't get this off my mind. I'm back to not eating and I know that if I allow myself to slip into a depression I will likely not get out of it and what kind of mother would I be? I can't do that to D.
Just when I thought my heart couldn't break into any more pieces, it does. I'm not sure it can be repaired. How do I even start that?
He doesn't see that the things he's saying to me, the things he's doing to me are all things I've said to him and done to him which is precisely what he's complaining about.
Card, your quote from Sparky about the bad feelings lingering inside perhaps will be seen as something unhealed inside of him rather than something about me... He generally already realizes that but blames me for the unhealed part completely. He has already said that once he makes a decision, he's resolved to it and nothing can change his mind. I know that to be true. Can this not be an exception?
Maybell, I want to believe you that all will be well but I don't see how. I just don't. How can it ever be well?
I am only now realizing that I don't think I CAN be well. I honestly don't see how. Will I just have to live with the pain of regret for the rest of my life?
I've been at the end of my rope before. I really have but I've never been so far gone that I couldn't be talked into working on something with help and support. I guess I've never let myself get that far gone. He did. I hate him for that.
I don't know if this is the right time for you or not...
Going Dark Is it the right time? I'm generally dark as it is. Should we not hang out as a family anymore? I can't make these decisions anymore. I don't know the right answers.
I wanted you to take comfort in the passage Card pulled out. That he's blaming you for his pain because you are there.
You really, truly will be well. Absolutely. You sparkle too beautifully not to be. You don't have to believe it this minute. I'll believe it for you.
But for tonight, give your girl some ice cream and then go have a big cry in a nice toasty bubble bath. You can think clearly another day.
No more analyzing! It was an extortion demand. He's unhappy and he wanted you to be his magic bullet. For today don't read anything more into it. Breathe and work through the feelings it brings up. Don't try to figure anything out than that.
Hugs, hugs, hugs.
Hi Ss,
I'm so sorry you are feeling this pain. But, and I speak as something who has been going through something fairly similar... Maybell is right. You WILL get through this and be ok.
My H and I haven't had a R talk in months, but the last time we did, he said, "I just don't see a married future for us." and "I realize now that I had been unhappy for even longer than I originally thought." Ok, then.
And yet, we get along quite well, he shares cute stories with me about our D, has been amenable to my requests for schedule changes, he even bought me an expensive gift recently (as a sort of apology). And still cannot bring himself to entertain the idea of R.
I went through what you are feeling. It's so surreal. How can they be SOOOO pessimistic and stubborn and unwilling to even TRY?
But they are. They just are. They have their OWN sh!t to work through.
When my H left me, sure, I can readily admit things were really bad. But NOW-- a year later? After I've learned so much and grown so much and given him SO MUCH space and remained pleasant and strong? He is a damn fool to remain so stubborn. Am I mad about that? Of course. Do I wish I could wave a magic wand and make him WANT to work on our R? Of course!
But I can only control me.
And so, I choose to hold my head up high. This is about HIM, much more than it's about ME. I will show my D my strength, my resilience, my ability to have compassion even for those who hurt me (and her), and model through my own changes that PEOPLE CAN CHANGE if they want to and work at it.
Yes, I would recommend pulling back from the family time, if you think that will help YOU detach. I'm now at a place where I don't think that much about him, or what he's thinking or doing (or with whom), especially when I don't see him. My triggers NOW are my D leaving to spend the night at his house, and thinking about/talking to his family or "our" friends. But he is mostly a colleague in the "D3-raising business" that we share. He's more like a colleague who I am cordial to, and at times have to work closely with and problem-solve with, but who doesn't know much about my personal life and vice versa. We are not "friends".
It's weird, and sometimes awkward and painful. But it's definitely do-able.
And has been the thing that has helped me move forward the most.
I am here for you (unfortunately for both of us!!) and so are many others who can empathize and relate. You are a great person and a great mom. You are NOT evil. You CAN work on whatever aspects of your being that you think will make you a better, stronger person. He's gonna do his own thing, in his own time.
Hang in there. I know it's so so hard.
(((hugs)))
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my babbling, Maybell and Claire. Your collective and separate wisdom is an inspiration, especially right now.
I really need you to believe that I'll get through this, Maybell, because I just don't see it.
Claire, are they stubborn or self-righteous or just completely turned off like a machine inside? I'm not able to hold my head up high yet. I was there once but I've fallen down hard. I'm afraid to get up again. I don't want to fall again.
He already is a fool but I will work hard, somehow, to make him even more of one should he continue to not want to work on something that would make us both proud.
I know I'm not weak. I don't feel like I have the strength to carry this right now but I'm not weak. I do feel powerless. Completely control-less. Weren't we all told that hard work and dedication will get you what you want? It's just not true. It's just not.
Acceptance and resignation (not surrender) are two things I need to work on but I'm tired of working on me. I need uplifting. Strength. Something to look forward to. Consistency. I don't even know where to look for it.
I've been friend-like with him because that's where we started. He even said that the way we've been interacting reminds him of 1996 (when we met) and that we are probably best off being friends. Being cold or businesslike just gives him ammo. I don't want to be his friend.
He did say he'd be open to MC. Actually what he said was, "sure, I'll go to MC if you want. I guarantee that within the first two sessions you'll walk out because I'm going to be honest!".
At this point I don't know what MC could do for us. How do I know if I should go dark? If we should try MC? If I should just give up?
I feel like I got hit by a bus. Twice.
Nope, I would not go to MC. Not now, anyways. He is not ready to work on the R.
Re-read about the LRT. You have to communicate about your D, so you can't disappear completely, and going "dark" doesn't mean going "angry" or "surly" or even "non-emotional". IMO, you can still be "friendly" even while you remain detached.
As for how to get past these feelings? Well, of course you have these feelings. It is normal and natural to feel this way. Let yourself have them. Let them wash over you. I remember a turning point for me was, one night, I sobbed full throttle for like 2 hours. Full-body, loud, writhing, gut-wrenching sobs.
It was so cathartic, and after that I was ready to not feel so angry every time I saw him. I can't explain it. It just happened like that for me.
The other way to get past those feelings is to GAL. Reconnect with friends, find new friends, find new or old interests that you lost along the way. See the beauty in yourself and in the world around you. Read inspirational things. There is so much good everywhere. Positive THOUGHTS and ACTIONS leads to positive FEELINGS. So, think positive thoughts, and do positive things, and eventually, you will have more positive feelings. It really works!
And, don't hesitate to ask your doc about trying meds (temporarily, maybe) to get you through this roughest stage. I resisted meds for years and years. But now I am a believer, and can say that it's been a game-changer for me. Eventually I'd like to wean off, but that won't happen until I'm ready to sleep well, exercise more, and am much healthier in general. I'm not there yet, but I'm moving in the right direction and that's what matters most.
As for what he says? Eh, believe none of it, and only half of what he does. COMPLICATE HIS NARRATIVE. You can do this.
((Hugs))
You're right, he's not ready to work on it. He really isn't.
Detached friendliness is going to be my goal. We're spending a lot of time together over the next two days so that's a good thing for me to practice. Must study up on topics unrelated to R. Are Ebola and Isis too negative? LOL
I have been light on the GAL, I'll admit. I'm a home body. I also don't have any friends who aren't married (and happy about it) so I feel very lonely when I'm around them sometimes. Also, I hate that "we feel so sorry for your situation" look I get from some friends like I'm some wounded bird... well, today I'm feeling very much like a wounded bird so, whatever.
Claire, thank you for reminding me that positive thoughts and actions lead to positive feelings. I needed to hear that. Gah, you know just what to say to this girl.
About meds... I'm on them. I've been on them since PPD with D. They are crucial and are probably the only thing keeping me afloat (besides all of you) right now.
How do I complicate his narrative? I've never heard that before. Do you mean continue with my 180s? I can do that.
His memory about the past is situationally correct but it has this evil, dark, sinister, shadowy cast to it all. It makes me sick to my stomach. Is that how I was? It's almost like my eyes glowed green and smoke came out of my fingertips when he recalls the past. It's painful to be seen that way.
His memory about the past is situationally correct but it has this evil, dark, sinister, shadowy cast to it all. It makes me sick to my stomach. Is that how I was?
That's HIS narrative. It's not the "truth". Holding THIS narrative in his head helps him justify leaving you.
Complicating that narrative means acting in ways that make him go "hmmm... wait, a sec.... that's not how I remember her being. What's going on? She doesn't seem so bad now... why am I giving her up again?" He will TEST you. Don't take the bait! Be the best possible you, no matter how weird and frustrating he is, or how angry or sad you are.
Do you have a mantra? Get one! When you see him, smile, and think to yourself, "La la la, I am so awesome... and YOU, my friend, are a
foolto leave me! Gotta run, off to GAL with my awesome self!"
You live in LA? Hmm, probably not many divorced moms there, oh well. (Haha). Find some! Go to a meetup! I agree, it's tough to listen to married friends talk about their H's (I actually have a harder time listening to them complain. I like hearing happy stories!) Plus, they don't really know what to say. But, I'll tell you, most of my D friends don't really get DB either.
So, we talk about other stuff. That also helps me detach. This situation doesn't have to define or consume you, at least not in public. Go out, have fun, be a fun, normal person, and then come home and sob if you need to. Eventually (I promise), there will be more genuine fun, and less sobbing.
I've been at it a year. Has DB worked for me? Well, I'm still not divorced, and I am SO MUCH MORE at peace with myself. So, yeah, it's working. Maybe not exactly how I pictured, but who am I to say what's "supposed" to happen.
Make an appointment to talk to Chuck!
Holy cow. I gotta get to bed. (still working on that...)
((hugs))
Hi Ss, I don't really have much to add to what Maybell, Claire, Card and others have already said, but I wanted to check in with some support for you. It sounds like your H is deep in a "poor me" fog. You are working on making yourself a better person, but you need to be in this for the long haul. Patience is key. I think in his silly way with the 100% guarantee talk he is really saying that he wants to know that the positive changes he is seeing now are going to stick. That isn't too much to hope for but the way he is saying it is irrational. He has a lot to work on within himself.
I'm sending you thoughts of strength and positivity!
Also, forget your friends! No not really but maybe it is time to go find some new friends who you can relate to right now. Try a meetup group or join a class or activity with your D. Something different will be nice.
Hugs, Lisa
He said he wants someone who can be nice to him without having to read 10 self-help books and tons of therapy to do it. ouch. And then buttoned that up with "I'm just being honest"
this just really pisses me off. That is such an incredibly selfish thing to say. So we've established that he wants
- Perfection
- Immediately
- From an already perfect human who has no faults and never has had any faults to work through
Good luck to the fella. He is 10x's deeper in his fog than you are.
So we've established that he wants
- Perfection
- Immediately
- From an already perfect human who has no faults and never has had any faults to work through
My H has a second wife?
So we've established that he wants
- Perfection
- Immediately
- From an already perfect human who has no faults and never has had any faults to work through
My H has a second wife?
I can't imagine that everyone here married monsters. So I guess it's the fog. But man is the fog making some of these WAS's act like jackA$$es.
Ss, just to be clear - You should be very, very proud that you have:
- Acknowledged problems and issues in your behavior
- Identified potential ways to correct those problems
- Done a lot of hard work to begin correcting them
- Done all of this work because you should, not to win someone back
- Shown tremendous patience and maturity acknowledging that it will take a long time for the changes to be permanent and part of YOU, not just an effort that you make
That is 99th percentile stuff for someone in your position. Most just say their ex is "crazy" and move on to future disasters with any real introspection. That was a really crappy thing for your WAH to say and I really hope you don't take it to heart, as hard as that may be to not do.
Card, my H has always wanted perfection. He didn't get it of course, because I'm not perfect. ;-) But he wanted me to look a certain way, wanted our house to look like no one lives in it, wanted a lot of things that I couldn't make happen. In one of our MC sessions back in June, he actually brought up the fact that I didn't put raw onions in a potato salad I had made the weekend before. I've been making potato salad for 27 years without onions. On this occasion, the fact that I didn't include them became a character flaw worthy of a discussion in MC. But that sort of thing isn't new, that's life with H. Maybe other women's H's will come out of the fog and be nice, but mine probably won't.
unfortunately RPP, the fog is not gender specific. trust me i can attest to that!
I think I keep trying to figure out the reason and rationality of his extreme stance on our marriage (leaving perhaps permanently). And the frustrating part is that it's not rational. Yes, I wasn't a good wife but given how we communicated, he could have said he was thinking of leaving permanently and suggestion some options he thought would help. To me that's the "healthy" way to go about it, right? My H keeps talking about what's "healthy" but come on.
Maybe this is me just being critical of even how he says he wants a divorce.
It's sick how I try to find holes in his logic so that's why he should stay.
I mean, we get along great, are good co-parents, laugh a ton together, can talk about anything, can gently poke fun at each other... He says he likes spending time with me and being around me... It makes no sense for him to leave permanently. For a time so he can evaluate whether he trusts my changes to be permanent and long term, sure, but forever?
And it's the logic or lack thereof that hurts and feels unjust. And I just want to argue it or poke holes in his argument as if he'll say, " oh, you're right, it's not logical or linear so I'll just pack my stuff and come home tonight."
I'm not doing well with all of this. Not at all.
Starsky says the LBS always gets to decide in the end, and if you haven't decided, it's not the end.
Hang in there, lady, it hasn't been that long. You just have to go through this. You will be better soon.
Your sentiments are so familiar. I am terrible at this sometimes too, particularly when he tells me that he really has decided to choose the OW and it feels so final - that's when I go into panic mode and try to argue and lose my cool. Even when I've told myself to not react in advance.
It's contagious. You, me, Maybell...I'm sure there are others but I'm so self-absorbed the last couple of days I can't even focus on anyone but myself.
Hang in there. I have no other words right now besides, I totally get it. And I'm so sorry we are all in this sukky situation.
Hey, I'm OK! I just am working through some of the stuff he said and getting reality checks as I compare everything to the book I've been reading.
And YOU ALL WILL BE OK TOO.
Yes, zimmy, panic mode is right. I've never been so panicky in my life.
Claire, I'm super self-centered too. And very H centric at the same time. This is not making me a very good mom. How can we get along so incredibly well yet he wants a divorce? We went out for dinner (not a date, he wanted me to clarify that), saw Gone Girl together and enjoyed a glass of wine after while talking about the film. Is that ANY indication if someone who, four days earlier, was adamantly saying he could never trust me and doesn't want to be married?
It's so confusing. We have so much fun together. We're very careful of each others' feelings, of communicating clearly, of shoeing appreciation... Why, if these are clear examples of new behavior that is flowing easily and freely, is he undyingly adamant about the end if our marriage.
I just can't wrap my head around this.
Maybell, I'm early in this journey yes. I just don't believe it gets easier or less painful later on. It doesn't, right? So what does it matter? I'm not trying to be rude. I'm really asking?
Ss,
Talk to Chuck! You've got a lot of positives going on there. Don't believe what he says. He's afraid. That's ok.
Keep on complicating his narrative. And focus on the positives.
Just curious - in my case, assuming it really is over, what do you all think about trying to stay friends? Does that work for later or does that not allow them to miss you and/or just drag out the pain? I am really struggling to know how to play this out going forward. Do I try to stay friends, which would be very hard for me, or do I just try to completely let go and move on with my life and hope that someday he comes to some sort of epiphany down the road?
No, you're wrong. It really does, if you make the effort to make it so.
I don't want my H back any less than you want yours back. But I have a lot to process for myself and I found that I couldn't spend time enjoying his company without there being some blowback. So I need time till that's not true. I'm using that time to explore the validity of the disjointed pieces of information I have from him and to explore the things about myself that got me here and that's what's putting me in a better place at the moment.
You're experiencing the blowback that made me step back.
It really, truly gets better. It really does. But first: you have to NOT BELIEVE that he can accurately predict the future. What he's saying right now doesn't HAVE to be true just because he believes it is. Your opinion of what your future could be is just as valid as his is.
Second, you have to LOVE YOUR LIFE. Seriously, Labug couldn't have given me a better challenge than to find something wild and crazy to do. I'm making bucket lists and re-evaluating my excuses for why I put off the things I could be doing now. I'm saying yes to practically everything that comes my way that is healthy. I'm really trying to embrace the concept of beginner mind. I'm treating myself like all of this is just part of my adventure. Which it is. (Note that I recognize that I'm not going to feel this upbeat all the time... but for the most part, I have a GREAT LIFE and why would I waste on it one big pothole?)
Every day is just that one day. It doesn't define your life or predict your future. (Remember the movie Gravity?)
I've been reading Harry Potter to my boys and we're in the later books now, where Harry is really starting to fear the extent of his similarities to Voldemort, and wondering if he really is a good person. Everyone who guides him reminds him, no one is all good or all bad; we are what we make of ourselves, the sum total of our choices, big and small. The small ones are probably more important than the big ones. And Harry spends all of the books being, in turn, both the hero and scapegoat among his peers. One of the things he learns is not to take any of it too seriously, because the Wheel of Fortune is constantly turning.
Start by recommitting to being the great mom you've been up to now. DB that little girl to the hilt. Enjoy your time with her. She's taking this separation hit anyway, so provide her with as many awesome memories as you can. Include her in the bucket list ideas that are appropriate for her. Take pleasure in that.
IT GETS BETTER. And when it does, you will be a in a great spot with your H, because he's already in a place where he can watch your changes.
Wow, powerful response! You make me feel like there could be hope one day. Thank you.
Totally agree with Maybell. It does get better and easier. That doesn't mean you want a R any less, it just means that you're moving forward. And you will move forward, one way or another.
Ss06, re what your H is saying. Do you really think he KNOWS what he means? Once upon a time, he loved you enough to marry you. Now he claims his feels have changed. That means his feelings can change again..
I've come to realise that the basic science behind this is "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Ha. As they always say around these parts, you shouldn't always believe what they say. And really, the fact that you guys do hang out and have a good time is proof in itself that there is hope for you yet. Just take a breather for a few days, reset and start again.
Maybell, thank goodness you're here. Seriously. I can't fully process everything you wrote but I will. I will. The statement: "your opinion of what your future could be is just as valid as his" helped me turn a small corner. Thank you. The rest is too much for me to take in. Do you ever get that way. Where more than a simple sentence is more than you can process?
Zimmy, I'm not averse to being friends but I don't want to be just buddies with my H. It feels like a consolation prize. If we get divorced, it's the best thing for my daughter but it's not what I want. What about you? Could you settle for just being friends after all this? There's no wrong answer, it's a GREAT thing to think about. I'm grateful you stopped by to comment on my thread. I'm not up on your sitch but all threads have something to teach us. Welcome to mine. I'll head on over and read up on yours.
Claire, I have another coaching session with Laurie. She's great. I'm sure chuck is awesome, too. I'm just feeling like I'm at a standstill. How can a coach make a difference at this point?
I'm so glad you all are here. I'm not sure I could survive this otherwise.
Chuck told me to remain hopeful. They have seen so many cases and can help you remain patient if you want.
I need hope and I need to figure out how to be patient. I'll put a call in for an appointment with my coach.
I really struggle with the friend question. On one hand, it may help pave the path back home and give him opportunities to be reminded of what he gave up and how wonderful I am - poised, confident, kind, forgiving - the kind of woman he would be crazy to leave (though he did anyway).
On the other hand, I am really really angry with him right now in reality. I'm not sure I want this lying cheating disloyal bastard back after all the hurt he has put me through. And why would I want somebody like that as a friend??? I love him, but he old him - not this shell of a person I am seeing now.
I just can't decide if he is lost or if he is just fundamentally flawed and has a bad character.
Ss, have you done any more yoga lately? Believe none of what you hear from WAH, and keep capitalizing on these "non"-dates. Don't forget to try to enjoy them on their own, too. If you're doing something with WAH and you both seem to be enjoying yourselves, just be happy to enjoy yourself and don't try so hard to find the meaning behind everything. In reality, there is probably no real meaning behind most of your WAH's words or actions now because he is very deep in his fog, still.
I was thinking about all of this today - the adjustment process for a LBS. I've been thinking it's all about GAL, detach, 180. Those help tremendously. But the most important thing, for me, is to face reality head on. Face it, but don't dwell on it incessantly for days/weeks on end. If you don't face the brutal facts of your sitch, you will delay healing and adjustment. I love the Stockdale Paradox...acknowledge all of the facts of your sitch, but also know your goals and pursue them with relentless optimism. That's nearly impossible to do for a freshly betrayed/abandoned spouse, but that's where the GAL and detach come in. When done consistently, they will prove to you that you can be independently happy. This takes (some of) the fear out of being left permanently. Then you can strike a healthy balance of being detached and independent vs. facing and processing the gravity of your sitch. That's all easier said that done, though, and when you're in a valley of the roller coaster, it feels like you're never going to get out.
Take care, Ss! You WILL come back out of this funk
Zimmy, I hear you. My fear is being friend-zoned. H has already said to me that he doesn't see me romantically so I guess I'm already there but that kind of thing can change, right?
The person he is now could very well be who he really is but it's unlikely. It's hard to know. I am the last person to be giving out advice on this journey and process because I'm fighting it and struggling through it every single hour. There's a lot of wisdom doled out on this thread, zimmy. I wish I put it all into practice as well as I can but maybe you can.
You'll get there.
Hot bath. Chocolate. Goofy movie. Stat.
Ss: When I spoke to my DB counselor Leni about my fear of the friend zone, she completely dismissed that as a problem. Said that the foundation for a good relationship is friendship. And once they've had a romantic relationship with you, some of that never goes away. It may get buried for a while, but the embers are still there. My ex is still attracted to me (he recently cheated on the OW with me multiple times - small revenge HA!), but says he doesn't "feel it" (I guess he means being in love) for me. Which of course is ridiculous if he thinks he can compare our long term love with newly infatuated affair love. He is truly blind and crazy right now.
But I also know that a truly secure person would never have allowed himself to fall into this trap. My ex was very insecure, weak, selfish and succumbed to the ego boost the affair gave him. He knew that his behavior would deeply hurt me and he did it anyway. He has gotten so good at lying that I think he is believing his own BS.
They definitely believe their own BS. That's a trademark wrk of all this. I struggle with that because the BS from one day to the next is different. I guess the friend zone isn't a terrible place to be, it's better than many other situations where people aren't even talking but knowing my ah, I could be in the friend zone for decades. He's good at that. And stubborn. I may be doomed.
Maybell is right. Chocolate and a bath may be necessary.
It just aches and hurts so much. How can we all be living with this pain?
Zimmy, I hear you. My fear is being friend-zoned. H has already said to me that he doesn't see me romantically so I guess I'm already there but that kind of thing can change, right?
YES. Don't expect it on any kind of timeline, but be positive and believe that it will someday. If he eventually files, okay, deal with the finality then. For now, keep digging to get back to independent happiness and capitalizing (love bucket deposits) on any encounters you have with WAH.
Remember, we have to look at WAS as a friend, a casual neighbor, or even something like a cousin. Romance is simply not on the table right now. That [censored], but it's reality. But many people have been there (friends only) and are now reconciled. Crack open DR and re-read the 3-4 pages of testimonies that begin on pg. 136.
Card, it's good to have you around because you remind me of my resources. Positive stories in DR would be good.
I HATE not having any estimated timeline. I need to know something about my future. I hate not knowing what's going on. It's a big trigger for me. BIG.
It just aches and hurts so much. How can we all be living with this pain?
No one can, forever. But you whether your believe it right now or not, you will feel better again. I'm betting that will come soon, too. You are due
I know. This is the hardest thing I have ever dealt with, and the only thing in life that has been capable of bringing me to my knees. I get sick every time I think of him with her. How could he willingly put me through this, I ask? Was she worth all this and so much better than me to make him act this way?
Hang in there. When it feels hopeless, try to take a break from agonizing about it. I think that's what some of these men do....
One if the hardest things, zimmy, is taking a break from it all. I cannot get it out of my head. Still can't. I took a retail mall job just to help keep my mind off of it all. It works but it's demoralizing though strangely fun in it's own way. And it often feels hopeless. It's hard not to wonder if the hope I feel is actually denial or naiveté because H feels so sure I'm wrong and he's right when it comes to whether this marriage is worth it.
I hate it.
Yes, easier said - I totally agree. I think it's great that you took a job!
It's not denial or naïveté - it's real hope. Nothing is over in this life. You guys will always have a connection for sure. He can't run from or ignore that forever.
Why do you think he is so determined to end the M? Why are you so determined to save it?
He's determined to end it because he feels he deserves what I've not given him for years, and he's right. He does. I am determined to save it because I CAN give it to him and we can make this marriage not just good but amazing. I see it and feel it. Amazing. Strong. Resilient. Passionate. Loving. Fun. I know it.
Our marriage, while full of laughter was very intense and serious with responsibility... I know that can change, too.
I HATE not having any estimated timeline. I need to know something about my future. I hate not knowing what's going on. It's a big trigger for me. BIG.
You're never going to have 100% certainty about your future, no matter what. Things can change in an instant, for everyone.
Here is what you DO know: you can be the best you that you can be. You can be the best mother you can be. You can be the best co-parents you can be, regardless of what happens with your relationship. Those are things you can be certain about, so work on those, regardless of the outcome.
If I said, "all this will be over in two years, two months, and ten days," what would you do differently than you're doing right now?
This is true, vossy. The future is always unknown but I never thought the part I can control would be out if my control, if that makes any sense.
I am going to put forth a better effort at being my best mom, co parent and ME I CAN BE.
I see IC tomorrow and I'll make an appointment with my DB coach, too. I'm leaning a lot on people. You guys, therapy, my journal, my BFF (who just went back to work after having her first child 3 months ago so she's dealing with her own stuff, too). I'm not afraid to ask for help, but I am afraid of doing it alone.
If I said, "all this will be over in two years, two months, and ten days," what would you do differently than you're doing right now?
I'd buckle down on learning relationship skills, connecting, loving and giving, stop wishing H would have a change of heart, show him I'm already different, already what he wants, that he is the man I want not just because he's the father of our child. I'd be less anxious. Less worried. Feel more secure.
Ok.
Ss, this will all be over in two years, two months, and ten days. Go do what you need to do. Start with the bath.
And you are not at all alone. You can do this.
Maybell, if I've never said it before, please know that I love you. I really do.
Hang in there some days I fell like my W will be home for good any day and then some days it feels like she will never come home. It really hurts on those days and I feel like giving up but I have to hang in there and so do you. Your family is more than worth it. Hang in there.
Someone on your thread, maybell, said something about negative sentiment override. That's precisely where H is. Everything that's wrong with our marriage is my fault. Every negative feeling he has ever had is my fault.
And the accusations come flying. It's a good thing D looks just like him otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if he accused me of getting pregnant by some other guy. That's kind of a joke but it's sort of indicative of his incredible negativity flinging.
I'm not trying to paint a picture that I was an angel but I'm certainly not as terrible as his memory provides and it's hard not to fight those inaccurate memories. He is notorious for being negative. All of our friends make fun of him for it and he is often referred to as a curmudgeon within his family. I used to laugh because if you asked him if he liked a restaurant, he couldn't say, "yes, I did", he'd say, "I didn't not like it". He just couldn't bring himself to speak positively about anything. And now I'm the recipient of his negative narrative providing him ample reason to get out and stay out of our marriage.
This "fog" of negativity is thick but even if it clears, there's a consistent underlying history of severe negativity there and I'm not sure he could ever see past that. Ever.
I'm trying. I'm trying to trudge on here.
"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada
Why do you take the finality seriously?
curmudgeon, chrysalis ... you're really expanding my vocabulary, Ss
Your just painted a clearer picture of your WAH than you have before, with just how negative his personality is. Yes, this will be a long journey for you, but I don't believe that that mentality of his is unfixable or unchangeable, given enough time. Maybe he needs a LOT of time on his own (1-2 years) to finally realize that his constant misery isn't everyone else's fault, that maybe there is something in him that needs to change. Look at what you've learned about yourself during this crisis. WAS can make the same type of strides in due time. But it will take them longer to even begin looking a themselves because of the fog. Who knows if he actually will become introspective like that, but don't doubt the possibility.
Who has a midlife crisis I recognize my H, do you recognize yours?
Maybell, I take the finality seriously because there's no indication it's not final. Or serious. Any indication I want to see is likely false or denial.
Someone says they practically despise you and want to leave the life you've made together, nothing tells me he's just saying that to get a rise out of me.
And, I do recognize my husband as a bit of a MLCer and typical WAS.
I'm realizing He only sees the things I didn't do and has used those things to firm my character in his head. He had thyroid cancer and I went to every appointment with him. I asked questions, did research, etc. what does he say? He didn't want me at those appointments and I never asked him how he was doing with it all. Actually, I did ask but it doesn't matter. Also when he would get down and "woe is me" when thyroid cancer is one of the only cancers you can be completely cured of, I would remind him if that, tell him to not let the word cancer scare him, it's not like the others, he's strong and resilient. I made the mistake of saying, "this is happening to me, too" which to me meant, "I'm scared and worried, too, but together we can get through this." He took it to mean that I was making his cancer about me. That's not what I was doing.
I don't always say or do the right things, I'll admit. I'm expected to be perfect and he walks away saying "I did the best I could" and that's supposed to be enough.
Where was he when I was going through PPD and dealing with a constantly crying, finicky baby? ? Oh, that's right. At work.
If I ever said that, all he'd hear is that I'm comparing my PPD to his cancer and how cold and heartless could I be?
Even comparing the two in my head is keeping score which I'm great at and trying to stop. The reality is, we BOTH treated each other like absolute chit. I want to fix it and he wants to relive it and carry around the anger of it like an effing badge of honor. Like a Purple Heart medal. Look what he's been through. Look how he's suffered. Any suffering he's caused me was because he can only handle so much but the suffering I've caused him means I'm a terrible person and unworthy of a marriage with him.
I'm saying it's not final because people change their minds. He may not realize he could, but we've heard many stories of how frequently people do. I'm saying, you are focusing on the bad and neglecting your own self.
But it sounds like that's where you need to be for the moment, so carry on.
I'm not saying that to be snarky. You've been so upbeat for so long that it was hard to believe you weren't in happy marriage a lot of the time. Now you're in anger. Go crazy, get it out.