Claire-- Is DB Worth it? Part 8 - DivorceBusting.com

Time for a new thread.

Last thread here: Claire- Part 7

Good morning, Claire!

This thread is going to be a good one! I can FEEL it!

Sooo, I didn't take anyone's advice including my own. Couldn't just stfu. Sent an email, in response to confirming parenting-and car-sharing plan for our upcoming holiday weekend...

"Sure. That plan sounds fine.

"H, I'm so sorry for my role in bringing us to this place-- where you've lost hope for our marriage and feel like this is how our lives have to be. And I do wish you peace and happiness in this new year."

Already knocked myself in the head with a 2x4. So be gentle on my bruised noggin.

Sigh.

I maintain it's OK if you don't have any expectations. Some things we have to do for our own peace of mind, even if it doesn't draw our spouse closer. So now, reap the peace and keep moving forward. It will have been worth it if you can feel lighter. He can't reasonably expect that you feel good about where you two are anyway, so all you've done is give him information about how you're processing your circumstances in light of the time of year.

In any case, since you did it, you need to be OK with it.

I agree with Maybell.

Plus, i don't think that what you said is all that destructive. Do you?

I agree with, Maybell. I think it's ok to occasionally show that we are human and express our thoughts and feelings about the events that have unfolded. Besides, it's a freakin' big elephant in the room�it would be rather unnatural to be able to ignore it all the time! I worry about what it would say about it me if I could do that!

Claire, I said something similar to my H on the weekend and he surprised me by saying "it's not you, it was the relationship." I'm mixing up all the stories on here so can't quite recall the specifics of your sitch, but it's possible your H may not even acknowledge the roles that either of you played in getting to this point.

Thanks for the shoulders to lean on. No, I don't think it was so terrible. What I had envisioned writing was much more specific -- this is sort of a cop-out apology because I haven't named anything specific.

But then I thought that writing a more specific apology at this point would only serve to remind him of the negatives. Who is attracted to a long list of how someone failed you? Ugh. I couldn't bring myself to do that right now.

This was a spur of the moment thing that came mostly from a place of "I still can't believe this is my life. This is not how we are supposed to be planning for this holiday."

It's just so tragic to me.

I say this with love... but I think your next goal should be to move from tragic to very, very disappointing. Because whether or not the marriage is recoverable, you definitely are.

I'm starting to worry about you. You've lost that strong PMA you had a couple of months ago when you were passing out 2x4s like a lumberjack. Where did it go?

Thanks Maybell.

I don't want to be divorced.

This holiday has been a painful reminder of what I have to let go of. Definitely grieving big time right now.

Does going darker mean that I don't have to respond to a non-emergency text about our D?
H: when was her last bath?
Claire: a couple of days ago. Probably a good time for one!
H: honestly, not sure we will have time tonight. I will ask babysitter to do it tomorrow afternoon.
Claire: (haven't responded yet. Do I need to? I think not. And please don't judge our intermittent bathing habits!!!!)

Originally Posted By: claire7

I don't want to be divorced.

Claire what does this mean to you? That you absolutely want to be M to your H or that you don't want to be a divorced mom?

I will freely admit that some of my heartburn about being D has nothing to do with H. Despite statistics, D is unusual in my social circle. It would be awkward. But that's not the same as wanting to be in a R with a particular guy. Understanding the difference has been important to sorting out my feelings.

And no, I don't think the bath text requires a reply.

Nope. I wouldn't respond. You provided the basic information he needed. No need for anything else.

And no judging here about the bathing... with two households, it's hard to stay on top of the basics. We can't even get the ONE karate belt and the ONE piano book in the right house on the right days. It's a challenge to say the least.

p.s. I don't want to be divorced either.

Just feeling stuck and sorry for myself that despite how logistically, financially and emotionally difficult this is for all of us (me, d and H), and despite the fact that I have shown him I am capable of change, he still chooses to feel hopeless and refuse to entertain the possibility of rebuilding a life together. Feeling pretty low about that at the moment. This moment will pass, and I will get on with my life and be ok, but right now the rejection and lack of a partner in my life--for nearly a year- stings.

I want to be loved and held and desired and cherished. I want to have someone to order in Chinese food with on a rainy night and get a foot massage.

I don't want to go out searching for love again, this time with the added complication of finding someone who will also cherish my daughter.

Jeez I am in bad shape tonight. Good thing there seems to be lots of hugs going around here. I need a couple.

let me give you a huge (((hug))) then.

I'm in bad shape tonight, too, for many of your same reasons.

I'm sorry we're both in this position. I hate it for me and I hate it for you.

(((hugs)))

What if you reframed your frustration?

The refrain I've been hearing from vets lately is that the LBS always gets to choose in the end, and if you haven't chosen yet, then it's not the end.

Your H is hopeless, you say. Which means, he can not see HIS responsibilities in the relationship. Ergo, he can not yet be trusted to pull his weight.

This isn't about you not being worth the risk to him. This is about him not being ready to take a risk on himself. Don't let the narrative be about your personal shortcomings. There are two of you.

And I don't want to be divorced either.

I agree with rpp. Are you in love with being married or are you in love with H? For me, I have not decided if it's marriage or W. I hate the D stigma. I don't want to think about dating. I want a partner in life. I have to figure how good W was as a partner and if I want her as a partner in a new R.

Claire,

I sense that you missed my recent post in your previous thread...is that right? You might want to take a look at it.
Stay strong!

wonka,

you're right-- I hadn't seen that message. I want to thank you first of all for stopping by with your incredible feedback, and for checking in here as well.

And you are also right that it seems like I'm pushing for a temperature check. My stamina in this marathon is waning this week. And the combination of not sleeping well, plus the holiday, plus seeing my in-laws who, regardless of how they actually feel, act towards me like everything is totally normal and honky-dory. 'Hey, Claire! Happy New Year! Here's the leftovers from our family holiday meal that you weren't invited to because you are no longer part of our family! See you!'

And the back and forth of figuring out the complicated parenting schedule, while he asks me, yet again, to be flexible. It's been a stressful week and I feel shredded.

So, I had a moment of weakness and tried to check the temperature... looking for some small glimmer of SOMETHING that will make this feel worthwhile.

I know I have to stay strong. I just don't feel strong right now.

My BD anniversary is coming up in a few weeks... and right after that my wedding anniversary. I think I'm feeling pretty anxious about that.

Intellectually, I know I will be ok. I just don't feel ok right now.
Thank you so much, everyone, for the hugs and advice. It means the world.

Claire.. I know how you feel. I'm approaching the one-year mark since BD and it is weighing on me.. like: "HOW is it a year already?" I can't get that out of my head.

*Hugs*

Originally Posted By: claire7

Sooo, I didn't take anyone's advice including my own. Couldn't just stfu. Sent an email, in response to confirming parenting-and car-sharing plan for our upcoming holiday weekend...

"Sure. That plan sounds fine.

"H, I'm so sorry for my role in bringing us to this place-- where you've lost hope for our marriage and feel like this is how our lives have to be. And I do wish you peace and happiness in this new year."

Already knocked myself in the head with a 2x4. So be gentle on my bruised noggin.

Sigh.

Claire girl, you need some padding for the helmet you SHOULD be wearing!...

Yes I'll post more later but I promise I will be gentle. OTOH, maybe you should take some aspirin, you know, just in case?

Originally Posted By: Maybell

What if you reframed your frustration?

The refrain I've been hearing from vets lately is that the LBS always gets to choose in the end, and if you haven't chosen yet, then it's not the end.

Your H is hopeless, you say. Which means, he can not see HIS responsibilities in the relationship. Ergo, he can not yet be trusted to pull his weight.

This isn't about you not being worth the risk to him. This is about him not being ready to take a risk on himself. Don't let the narrative be about your personal shortcomings. There are two of you.

And I don't want to be divorced either.

Maybell ^^^ this is amazing wisdom! Amazing.

It is hard to wait for them to freaking be ready to take a risk on themselves though, man! I want to *SMACK* my H into being ready. Not really but figuratively. Think that'll work?

So... no response to my apology email (as expected), but a text this morning telling me he left the car here and shared a cute story about our D from last night.

Do I respond? ?

If my criteria is "what would draw him closer or push him away?", I feel like ignoring those messages where he reaches out in a human way (not just about logistics), would push him away...

I think there is space between ignoring, acknowledging, and responding. Perhaps a brief acknowledgment of "thanks for sharing " would be appropriate.

Claire -

Not that your H is in the mental capacity mine was but I experimented with my response to H. He was pretty far gone but at times he did share things about the boys or himself with me. I was completely dark and pretty much ignored all his texts unless it necessitated a response only in regards to the kids or house matters. It pushed him away. He stopped sending things and got his head further out of joint if that's the nicest way to say it. when I responded he would go back with a conversation (albeit short) via text. I'm not saying this is what is right for your situation by just my .02

You don't have to pursue to respond. A simple 'how cute! Thanks :)' or something along those lines would be sufficient. You can try it and see what happens. If it pushes H further away or his behavior becomes distant then you know that doesn't work. My H said he felt like I was being cold when I flat out ignored to pictures or texts he would send. I wasn't in a place to respond or even try to be nice at the time. Sorry I'm rambling.

Thanks. That's what my gut was telling me. He doesn't reach out like that too often. I don't assign much meaning to it, other than I'm just one of the only people (besides his mom) who would really appreciate those kinds of stories. .. but still.

Originally Posted By: claire7

wonka,

you're right-- I hadn't seen that message. I want to thank you first of all for stopping by with your incredible feedback, and for checking in here as well.

And you are also right that it seems like I'm pushing for a temperature check. My stamina in this marathon is waning this week. And the combination of not sleeping well, plus the holiday, plus seeing my in-laws who, regardless of how they actually feel, act towards me like everything is totally normal and honky-dory. 'Hey, Claire! Happy New Year! Here's the leftovers from our family holiday meal that you weren't invited to because you are no longer part of our family! See you!'

And the back and forth of figuring out the complicated parenting schedule, while he asks me, yet again, to be flexible. It's been a stressful week and I feel shredded.

So, I had a moment of weakness and tried to check the temperature... looking for some small glimmer of SOMETHING that will make this feel worthwhile.

I know I have to stay strong. I just don't feel strong right now.

My BD anniversary is coming up in a few weeks... and right after that my wedding anniversary. I think I'm feeling pretty anxious about that.

Intellectually, I know I will be ok. I just don't feel ok right now.
Thank you so much, everyone, for the hugs and advice. It means the world.

What do you mean your stamina is waning? What would be different tomorrow if 1) H came back or 2) you were divorced?

I used to run this little exercise when my victim tried to check in for a stay. What I usually found was there wouldn't be a many differences. One was, I would have ready (maybe) partner to do things with.(excuse the grammar) That's when I realized that I could still do those things, just had to invite people to do them with or I could do them myself.

The rest was inside my head.

Get out and GAL! Create the life you want, That's the key to moving through this. Take the focus off him and put it on you.

Challenge yourself to get through a week without thinking of yourself as married (I don't mean dating, that's looking for validation from others and we really need to be able to validate ourselves). Go out have fun, try a new hobby, learn to do something new, walk everyday.

You've given him all the power in your life. Take it back!

If your changes are true and lasting, he'll see that even from afar. He may be interested, he may not. You have no control of that and his interest really says noting about you. So the best thing you can do for you is create a life that makes you happy.

You don't know what he's seeing or what he's feeling. This is where I see you're not living your life, cause you're looking to him for signals that you're doing the right thing. Sort of living in a box created by him. Step outside that.

Claire,

Originally Posted By: claire7

Thanks. That's what my gut was telling me. He doesn't reach out like that too often. I don't assign much meaning to it, other than I'm just one of the only people (besides his mom) who would really appreciate those kinds of stories. .. but still.

That sounds a tad bit resentful and keeping score right there. Sharing stuff about the kids is a great way to bond and promotes positive responses. In turn, these positive thoughts have a bomerang effect. Think about it, Claire.

Ok, Wonka. I hear you.

And now I need all hands on deck:

Came home tonight to find a card from H:
"The past year has surely been anything but peaceful and I can acknowledge my role in that, and on this holiday, say I'm sorry.

As you said, I hope we can both find some additional peace and happiness in the coming year. Perhaps you can find some sweetness in the beginning of the year [at this new restaurant that he knows I've wanted to try, and is very hard to get a reservation. It's a GC and he booked a reservation.] "I will take D that night, and hope you have an enjoyable evening."

I'm speechless. Help.
It's a big, expensive, super thoughtful gesture. But he's obviously not asking me on a date (he specifically said he will take our D that night).
Thoughts??

Oh... and I think I will probably see him at services tomorrow.

Ack.

Any step is a step, right?

I would take this gesture as simply as you can. It's a gesture. That shows he is willing to acknowledge his shortcomings - at least, somewhat - and that he does have some insight into himself. It shows that he can step up and apologize. It shows that he still has the ability to do things for other people, not just himself.

It's not a date, but did you expect a date at this point? It's might seem like a very small step, but it's still a step forward. Certainly not backward.

huh. I'm confused. Does he want you to go alone? Is the GC enough for you to take someone else? Wha?

Maybe he's waiting for you to ask him to go with you and arrange for babysitting?

Huh. I like the card and his gesture is HUGE. Like earth shatteringly huge but it's a bit awkward.

I love his words in the card. Love them. You can tell he's digging deep and hoping for a good response from you. A solo dinner though?

I'm lost.

Not a solo dinner. I didn't explain it too well, sorry. It's the kind of dinner where you have to buy tickets in advance-- a pre-fixe menu. So there are two tickets.

It is a big gesture-- (and the very weird thing was that I nearly bought two tickets for MYSELF and a friend TODAY! As an anniversary present to myself. But I didn't -- it's kind of expensive, and I was hesitant to pull the trigger.) In fact, I was out with a friend tonight, GAL, and we were talking about it!

So much for going to bed early tonight!

Claire, You said all hands, but my hands aren't worth anything at the moment. So just know you have my support for what little it's worth.

Originally Posted By: claire7

Not a solo dinner. I didn't explain it too well, sorry. It's the kind of dinner where you have to buy tickets in advance-- a pre-fixe menu. So there are two tickets.

Ok, that clears things up a bit but I'm confused by his intention.

Here are two pre-fixe tix to a fabulous dinner. Enjoy. Without me.

Wha?

Kind of a strange message. I don't want to ruin it for you, that's totally NOT my intention, Claire. I'm just so confused by the gesture.

If he wanted to get you something why a dinner for two?

Claire,

Nice! I would take it that your h acknowledges that it has been a difficult year and he wanted to give you something he thought you would enjoy. Take a friend and have fun:-)

Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle

Claire,

Nice! I would take it that your h acknowledges that it has been a difficult year and he wanted to give you something he thought you would enjoy. Take a friend and have fun:-)

I agree. I change my stance. It's odd to me but it is a kind and generous gesture. Find a friend, enjoy until your heart's content and laugh. Above all else, laugh.

(((hugs)))

Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle

Claire,

Nice! I would take it that your h acknowledges that it has been a difficult year and he wanted to give you something he thought you would enjoy. Take a friend and have fun:-)

Yes, this goes along with the last post I wrote here, get a friend and have a fabulous time.

I agree. Get a friend and go enjoy it.
If it is that big of a gesture, after the dinner send him a msg thanking him for the thought and gift.

Thanks for the great advice.

Had a busy, mostly good/productive weekend. Went to services by myself (H never made it there with D). It was a very emotional service for me. Much of the sentiments of the prayers, and the Rabbis remarks resonated with me. O cried through most of it.

Something the rabbi said sounded quite familiar... positive actions and thoughts can lead to changed feelings.

Mmm hmmm.

There were a few moments like that where I felt like she was speaking directly to me. And if I'm honest, I think part of why I was so upset was because she said (and we read prayers) that I feel like he really needed to hear. And he wasn't there.

But I can't control him. Only me.

All in all, a fabulous weekend. I pulled off a great little get together Saturday evening for friends and kids-- D helped me get things ready (like..really, actually helped! I love her so much). Then, took her to see a kiddie play on sunday morning with the wife of H's friend-- she has made a point to keep in touch with me and I am so appreciative. So great to spend time with her and her D's.

Still not sleeping well so feeling tired-- of all of this-- today. I was frustrated at my friends who seemed to be so short with their H's. Part of me wants to scream-- do you see what you are doing? Do you realize what can happen? And then I catch myself and remember that not every man walks away. So far I was the only one to be so lucky.

He is such a gd fool.

I'm realizing that as sad as I am about this, in many ways I am much better off now. I am not constantly feeling like I am disappointing him, or worrying whether my husband actually likes me as a person as I did for so long. I put that party together pretty easily and was so proud of myself. My H's anxiety caused us a lot of stress, it still does, and he always blamed it on me.

Such mixed feelings today.

So, another day and another request to change the schedule.

I love it when my church experience (or yoga class) tackles the exact issues I'm working on. It is so validating. It wouldn't have mattered if your H had made it... He has to believe the message for it to become action.

Yup, he's a gd fool.

I wish I could say more, but I feel like lately my advice is of limited value. The release of anxiety is huge, though, and I hope you keep exploring how liberating at is.

How is your 5k training going? I started a thread for it...

Ugh, 5 K training is not going.
I never solved some of my post-pregnancy physical issues that interfere with running (don't mean to be TMI). But, the good news is that I am starting PT again next week. Going to also try to pick up a yoga class once a week, and maybe add in some treadmill walking or biking or weight training.

To be honest, I've struggled for the past year with my sleep habits. I fall asleep on the couch every night, and wake up somewhere between midnight and 1, and then get into bed. My alarm goes off at 5:30. My D often wakes up once/night. Sometimes I do, too. That part of my life is a bit of a mess, and I'm surprised at how well I'm functioning considering I *never* get a good full night's rest.

I am exhausted. I know I need to solve this, as sleep is the key to so many other parts of my healing.

I have such a block about it though.

Even after all.this time, I hate getting into bed. I got new sheets that I love, I have a candle that smells great. And I still hate getting into bed.

Clearly I've still got a lot of work to do.

I would also love some pointers on how to get more traffic to my thread. Maybe I don't spend enough time on other people's threads. I have to give more to receive more.

My BD anniversary is coming up in a couple of weeks, then my wedding the following week.

Still no more mediation meetings in the works, still in limbo.

Do I ever ask him when he plans to take the rest of his belongings out of the house? Or-- if we should begin splitting finances, especially if he is spending joint $$ on dating? Dare I say something like that to him?

I feel like the answer is always, no-- no R talks, just GAL and worry about yourself. Limbo is good.

But this unknown is scary. Maybe I need to make some moves, like get the house appraised.

Am I entitled to access to joint bank accounts or CC accounts? I can't see what he spends-- he controls access to all the accounts and pays the shared CC bill. He has another card on his own, and so do I.

Looks like I need to call Chuck and my L.
and I need to get some sleep.

Claire,

The sleep thing is big for me, too. My D doesn't sleep well and neither do I. Like you, I took steps to make it a "dream space". New sheets, coverlet, plants on the night stands, turned the mattress, etc. It helped but didn't completely solve the problem. I'm contemplating rearranging the room to make it feel fresh and new. My motivation was H's comments on how he hated our house so I wanted to make it a fresh, new, comforting environment but I'm realizing the bedroom is really more about me being able to get rest and comfort.

Do you take Melatonin? It works well for me. I take it when I brush my teeth, read for about an hour and when the words start blending together, I switch off the light and fall asleep relatively quickly. For someone who has had insomnia for most of my life, I do anything that works though I don't like how prescription sleep aids make me feel.

Exercise, consistent exercise has also been helpful for me in that department. Yoga is HUGELY helpful. Inversions and yin type stretches are proven to help sleep troubles. I've actually started doing them with D in the hopes that they'll help calm her mind and help her sleep better, too.

I would talk to your L about whether it's a good idea to open a separate account so YOUR money isn't spent on dating. You can't control how he spends money he earns but you CAN control how your earned money is spent. I think after a year of all this, you're entitled to put your foot down in this area. Talk to Chuck though. I'm NOT a pro (clearly).

I, too, feel like the answer is always "no R talks, GAL and worry about yourself" but after a certain amount of time of that NOT working, aren't we supposed to do something different? Perhaps making financial changes would be a good 180 at this point. Plus, it might feel empowering to take back control of YOU. Why fund his A? How could that possibly be good DB?

I would also ask your A if he/she could put in a request for online passwords for the accounts/CCs. You are absolutely entitled to that since your money is in those accounts. In a way, this is you staking a claim on what is yours. That's sticking your neck out but in the end, if he wants a D, then this is how it works. It is one more step toward that but it's also you making it clear that you're not going to fund his extra curricular activities just because you want him back.

Him controlling access to everything puts you in the "doormat" category. Take back your power, Claire.

As far as his belongings, after a whole year, I'd throw (not nicely pack) his things in boxes, send him an email saying they are on the front porch and will be for a week, after that they are going to goodwill. Done. I wouldn't mess around there. It's not starting a fight. It's stating what you need. After a year, it could be argued that he's abandoned these things so they are yours to do with what you want. You're being KIND by packing (throwing) them in a box and giving him the opportunity to rescue them from goodwill. You are not the curator of his things while he lives his bachelor life. It's just one more way he's maintaining his plan B. Nope.

I've found that traffic to threads varies so much. A lot of it has to do with timing throughout the day and week. Hang in there.

I think of you often, Claire. You're handling things incredibly well. You are coming up on a "new year" type turn-over with the anniversary of BD and an opportunity to set some resolutions. What will they be?

Claire,

Well, you're definitely getting plenty of traffic from me! I've been following your threads faithfully and I'm sorry to say I'm more of a lurker at the moment than a poster. In fact, I've been registered for several months, but I'm still on moderation b/c I've posted so little. But I definitely find reading about your situation and others extremely helpful and full of valuable advice. There is plenty of truth to DBing, particularly stopping behaviors that don't work, as I just learned this morning. Might post more details later.
Here's a link to my thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...630#Post2454630

Just wanted to let you know you have a reader. The strength you've shown through all of this is admirable and inspiring.

Claire,

Yes, you should have access to joint accounts. I don't know how the financials were handled prior to S, although I do know you should have access to anything joint.

In regards to his stuff, that's your call. Is it really bothering you? If so them you could put the stuff in boxes. If not, I wouldn't push on that. My xh hasn't even forwarded his mail and left his checkbook. Granted not too many checks written as everything pretty much is done online...still.

I think you are doing fine. What do you want input on? Again, I don't say that to be harsh. It feels like you are getting impatient and that's understandable. Limbo is difficult. However, right now your h doesn't want to be in a R with you and said he's dating. I'm not advocating dating-just recapping what has been stated. Please know that I don't say that to be hurtful although I do understand the pain you feel. I mean really. Who thought they would get married and their h would would be dating while M? However, this is where many people are.

What do you want to do? Your h knows you don't want a D and you want to R.

Hang in there! It sounds like you have made lots of great changes to a VIP-you!!!

Claire, Georgiabelle said everything I was thinking.

But I also wanted to say... For a really long time I felt like I was sometimes hoping the vets would stop by, look at my sitch, and say, "Yes, you will reconcile with your husband, and it will be on this date and here is how it will happen." And of course that never did happen. Sometimes I wonder if that's what you're looking for? Because in my view you do get good traffic, and a ton of support from people who care about you. And when you post on other people's threads Starsky and 25 both agree with you. You know your stuff.

I wish your H would come around on your timetable, but as much as we'd like to, nobody here can be oracles. We are all pulling for you, though!

WRT the sleeping thing... can you rearrange your room, or move into a different room in the house for a little while? And failing that, I would make sending yourself to bed an intentional thing. Even if you don't like it, you've got to do it, so make it work for you, including by turning it into a discipline. And what Ss said is spot on.

Wish I could say more that was helpful, but I am rooting for you!!!

Just to clarify-- I have access to joint accounts, but I do not have access to his individual accounts which may or may not have co-mingled $$. I don't know.

And I definitely don't know how he's managing his brokerage accounts which are legally partly mine since he comingled the $$.

We haven't really discussed finances since BD-- all expenses have stayed status quo. In fact, he pays my cable/home phone bill-- I don't have access to that account! I will ask about that one.

He makes way more than me so financially it is probably in my best interest to keep things as is. He is paying most of the bills. I think he'd jump at the chance to move forward with separation if I drove it. But I suspect (mind reading) that he a) feels overwhelmed at work;; b) guilty and c) still a bit ambivalent -- afraid to move forward but afraid to move towards me.

But now that nearly a year has passed, you're right-- I have to face some realities. There have been some significant (small, but significant) positives lately...but is that enough? Dunno.

25years, wonka, labug--what do you think?

Just wanted to chime in that I read your posts, almost all if not all of them

But I usually don't have anything to say or give advice on. I have some of the same frustrations/questions re: limbo, when does it end, etc., that if I can't answer for myself I don't feel like I'd be a good resource for anyone else. Re: R talk, I've interpreted that to mean that conversations about financials and logistics are OK and necessary. Just not things that are solely about the R - "Where are you at with regard to us?" "Are you still thinking about D?" etc. Granted some of the logistical things are based on or imply something about the R so I'm careful to ask myself "Do I really need to ask about X or am I using it as a way to see where he's at with regard to us?" Re: the finances, maybe it starts with a question about whether or not there is any comingled money vs. solely his money. And even if it is solely his, wouldn't you be entitled to support or maintenance of some type given the big difference in income, so having some knowledge of it (mostly making sure it's not completely disappearing) is still appropriate? This is where an L's advice would come in handy, because if you were worried it was all being frivaled away, you could take steps to freeze it or disclose it. Not saying your H would do that but you hear stories about people who delay D so they can spend or hide assets. If what you are concerned about is "I don't want any of my money spent on his dating" maybe starting with simply asking if there is any joint money you don't have access to view is enough to start with, and go from there.

Claire, I got this for Ahoy but when I saw it again I thought of you so I thought I'd share it. It comes from one of Labug's old threads. I originally posted it for T0324 but it resonates a lot for me today, for Ahoy, you, AND me:

If your only reason for being here is to "Save My Marriage" you will be stuck in the same place a year, 2 years, forever. Lay down the save my marriage banner and pick up the one that says "Save Me"

If you're here to improve yourself, get rid of some old baggage and are open to the process you just might create a new life for yourself. It may or may not include your spouse but that might no matter.

Hope this helps...

Claire,

Been away from the Boards for a while...sorry about that.

I want to comment about the bank thing:

If you are uncomfortable with H having access to joint accounts and controlling them, one suggestion is to open a bank account in your own name and have your checks DD'd into them. Then you'll have some control over how your money is managed because there's only ONE person on them. Something you might want to think about.

Originally Posted By: claire7

But now that nearly a year has passed, you're right-- I have to face some realities. There have been some significant (small, but significant) positives lately...but is that enough? Dunno.

25years, wonka, labug--what do you think?

I see a lot of the problems here is that many posters have this illusive "timetable" then when it comes and goes, they all become disillusioned with the process. This is why I strongly emphasize the importance to try and embrace the limbo by GALing for it takes your mind off of the sitch.

Make sense?

Back to your question. Is it enough for you? Are you looking at this as a zero sum game?

What do you think, Claire?

Lots to think about, especially re finances. If I am going to face reality, I need to start thinking ahead. We haven't set a budget. Nothing really has changed for me financially. Part of that is wishful thinking, and I do still trust him to not intentionally hurt me.

But I already had one BD. If this is going to happen-- if I'm going to be on my own-- I need to have a plan.

I do have my own account. My paycheck goes into a joint account at that bank that he doesn't really touch. He seems to have his own account too, at a different bank where his paycheck goes into another joint account. Most of our bills are paid from that joint account. Like I said, even with generous spousal support for 2-3 years and CS, im probably better off at the moment.

I am holding on because i still want this marriage to work for many many reasons. I have to do some major soul searching i guess.

And, Maybell, you are totally right that I have to be willing to save myself, regardless of what happens in my M. I am well on the path to that. I can recognize the many blessings in my life and hold my head high with the strength and grace I have shown in the past year. I see my own value and approach problems with thoughtfulness and hope, not panic and dread.

I still have plenty of work to do, but I am on the right path and my progress can never be taken away.

And now... off to bed as a gift to myself. :-)

Originally Posted By: claire7

Just to clarify-- I have access to joint accounts, but I do not have access to his individual accounts which may or may not have co-mingled $$. I don't know.

And I definitely don't know how he's managing his brokerage accounts which are legally partly mine since he comingled the $$.

We haven't really discussed finances since BD-- all expenses have stayed status quo. In fact, he pays my cable/home phone bill-- I don't have access to that account! I will ask about that one.

He makes way more than me so financially it is probably in my best interest to keep things as is. He is paying most of the bills. I think he'd jump at the chance to move forward with separation if I drove it. But I suspect (mind reading) that he a) feels overwhelmed at work;; b) guilty and c) still a bit ambivalent -- afraid to move forward but afraid to move towards me.

But now that nearly a year has passed, you're right-- I have to face some realities. There have been some significant (small, but significant) positives lately...but is that enough? Dunno.

25years, wonka, labug--what do you think?

I'm not going to give you answers about the money stuff, I'm thinking that's a smokescreen for "I want to know WTH is going on and when will this be over."

I'm going to give you the answer that, although it p!ssed me off when I continued to read it, it is the only answer.

This is over when you say it's over.

And by your asking the question here, I would guess that you're not done yet.

Focus on the good in your life and keep making it better. Do things that make you happy.

((( )))

So Chuck says to stay hopeful. I guess if I can do that, either in a "no expectations" sort of way, or in a "I'll deal with disappointment if I need to" way, I can handle that. I don't want to say, "I can't go through that pain again." Because I'm stronger than that. Life is sure to throw more pain at me somehow. And haven't I learned how strong I really am?

BUT-- I've been considering seriously whether he has a bit of narcissistic personality. ...

Two MC noted his lack of empathy. He has a major problem accepting any type of criticism or blame, and does not apologize well, even when he is so clearly in the wrong.

For ex: when I was 6 months pg, we went to a friend's wedding out of state. Despite the fact that everyone admired how I was being very social-- dancing, etc late at night-- he got very drunk, ignored me by the end of the evening, sat next to a female (single) friend on the bus ride back, and went to the after party w/o me.

Ok. Maybe not soooo terrible (?)

Then, came back to hotel-- I was sleeping. He snores very loudly when he is drunk. I couldn't sleep at all. I sat on the floor of the bathroom crying, I was so desperate to sleep, and considered going to get my own room in the middle of the night.

The next day, rather than acting contrite at all, he was actually mad at me for being grumpy and annoyed with him.

This was a major pattern for us. I started to think I was really crazy, questioning whether I was being manipulated (was I out of line for expecting an apology and some nurturing the next day? He seemed to think so.)

But now I'm seeing it so differently. In a healthy R, a loving H would acknowledge what had happened, and act contrite (honey-- what can i get you to help you feel better? Do you want to lay down and I'll bring you back some lunch? I'm sorry you had such a rough night. How about next weekend you get a massage?"

Something like that.

But there's something wrong with a man who would make his pg wife feel like she had done something wrong in that situation!

I have a bunch of stories like that. They are embarrassing to share because I feel ashamed that I would stay with a man who treated me like that.

Even the way BD happened--

"I'm just not happy" (and not willing to do any work to improve things with you).

"I do so much to try to make you happy and I don't feel loved by you" (never considering the ways he made me feel unloved, or accepting those things when I TOLD him what they were),

"It took me a lot of courage to leave" (do you want a medal for that?)

To be fair, I can take responsibility for acting the victim, too. The new Claire wouldn't just pout, she would a) have gotten herself a new room and left a note; b) told her H what she needed without caring whether he was annoyed; c) booked the massage all by her big girl self. So, I contributed my own dysfunction.

From what I've read, narcissists are not easily changed. Maybe I cut my losses and seek out someone who is capable of healthier relationships. It's scary to put this out there, because I feel like admitting these feelings and anecdotes

Lots to think about these days.

I think I'm handing it over to the universe. I will not let the possibility of R prevent me from doing anything, including meeting new people. His road home is smooth, but long. Maybe my next goal is to start getting ready to meet someone new.

Not gonna defend him but you tell him that those situations hurt you emotionally? The reason I ask is because my W would be hurt at the things I said but hold them in. Or she would scream them at me and my defensiveness would rear its ugly head. In my sitch I've realized we were both in the wrong. Patience and timing is the key I'm learning apparently too late. Praying for you!

Bravo--
Fair point. It was a while ago, now, so I can't say for sure. I'm sure I *thought* I did at the time, but our communication skills were awful. I certainly would communicate (and do communicate) differently with him now.

Trying to stay hopeful... but the more I think about it (and see myself through other people's situations), I'm just not sure it can work. I just don't think he is capable of ever giving me what I need. I don't know if our R was ever really healthy (I was never really healthy), so I don't know if there is enough to rebuild.

Well, that sure doesn't sound hopeful!

Claire your on a journey, a very painful & difficult journey but I promise you beyond all doubt that what lies at the other end of this tunnel is beautiful and I know you have the strength to keep working on yourself & ploughing through - i don't know if your M will survive but I sure as hell know you will thrive regardless if the outcome

you can do this!!

p.s. Sorry it's been so long!

Originally Posted By: claire7

Well, that sure doesn't sound hopeful!

Depends on your perspective.

Labug... i get it.

for the last year I've been grieving the fact that my H gave up on me.

Now... if I turn it around, I have to grieve in a different way. That I'm giving up, that I don't want him. (And, to be clear,I dont want him now, but I mean in the abstract "I don't ever want him again") Acknowledging that he was right-- that the R has no hope-- is something I haven't allowed myself to do. And its like everyone in the world-- his family and friends, my family and friends-- have acknowledged and accepted that this is done.. everyone except me. Some days I feel like such a deluded fool. I mean, even if it ever came to that, could I really go back into his extended family-- the family that has essentially pretended I don't exist for the last year? Where the only ones to reach out a kind word were his mom and SIL? Like, not even a "I'm so sorry this happened, and I hope you are doing ok".

Or his friends' wives who were there for me at the beginning but have mostly (except for one couple) gone up in smoke, and whom I have not seen in months.

There's a lot of people I'd have to forgive and forget aside from my H. I dont know if I can do that.

But man, my head is taking me to some crazy places tonight. Time to go out for a drink with a friend...

Boy do I empathize with your situation Claire. I have the same feelings, where I question if my W ever truly cared about my needs. So many situations like you described, where I automatically assumed that my feelings made me the bad guy, and that I had to accommodate how my W reacted as if it was justified. Our communication was bad, just as you describe, and I can own my role in that. It's hard not to see the WAS as just taking a my way or the highway approach. My BD was the same, with W simply explaining to me how our R was terminal, and making me out to be the "stubborn" one who was "denying her feelings" when I tried to point out that we had never put effort into changing our R dynamic.

And I feel the same way about her family. They no longer reach out to me. Her MILs demeanor with me is as if nothing whatsoever is going on. It's bizarre!

As long as you've changed, you've won. Your next R will be so much the better, whether it's with H or someone else.

Originally Posted By: claire7

his family and friends, my family and friends-- have acknowledged and accepted that this is done.. everyone except me. Some days I feel like such a deluded fool. I mean, even if it ever came to that, could I really go back into his extended family-- the family that has essentially pretended I don't exist for the last year? Where the only ones to reach out a kind word were his mom and SIL? Like, not even a "I'm so sorry this happened, and I hope you are doing ok".

You've made it through a lot and then comes this awakening. It is actually a good thing cause now Claire can get on with Claire.

You're not a deluded fool, no one else you mentioned has as great an emotional stake in your life. Would you tell someone who suffered the death of a close relative that they were a deluded fool for grieving? Be kind to yourself.

About the family, I had the same thoughts as I had the similar reactions from H's family. H and I were just talking about this yesterday because his sister from OOT stayed with us last week while MIL was in the hospital. I had to work through some of my feelings while she was here and I was telling H about it, even shed a tear or 2. The key is, you won't be stepping back into the same R, it'll be a different R and one in which you can define the parameters. It actually takes a lot of pressure off, or at least it did for me.

You're doing fine Claire, we just have to accept that at times life is painful but in accepting and naming it what we're feeling we limit it's power over us.

Thanks, labug. I appreciate the support so much.

Maybe I'm not giving his family enough credit. My SIL has been lovely to me-- we've met up for dinner a few times, and she's been very open to getting together with the kids, too. And my MIL has also been lovely to me, given the circumstances. She's been open about how much she cares about me, and how upset she and her H (my H's SF) are about this. They have also both complimented me about how I've changed and handled all of this. I have to believe that that gets back to the rest of the family somehow. And I have to believe that I'd continue to be strong and dignified enough to model reconciliation with all of them should that come to pass.

Interestingly, my H's cousin has had some major mental health issues in the past. He was a newlywed when he had a recent significantly difficult period. I think his W's family was worried about her staying with him. But she did. They now have two little kids. He seems healthy. (And he has always been the kind of person to reach out to everyone, to acknowledge birthdays and anniversaries). He sent me a nice email on my birthday. He is a really good person, and his W is so lovely, too, and I am so glad she has stuck by him.

Taking today to just relax and chill out. I had a terrible night's sleep, and feel awful, but instead of being angry with myself for not "GAL" today, I'm treating myself with love and resting. And that's ok to do sometimes, even on a beautiful day.

Just read this from Nitty on another thread:

Quote:

I remember reading that a separation is less likely to end in D if mutual friends are pro-marriage. This was the closest I could find on the topic, but the research it refers to just talks about how "social contagion" can cause a mini epidemic of D.

Ugh. My H's friends and family are more like, "Do whatever you feel you need to do to be happy. If that means getting a D, then we'll still love and support you no matter what."

I have such a (mis-guided) urge to share DR with my MIL or some of his friends, in the hopes that they will be moved to encourage him to reconsider.

That would be SUCH a bad call on my part, so I'm thankful I've resisted those urges so far... but boy oh boy, I think this would be easier if I had more people in my corner. (I mean, I know I have all of you, but I mean people who actually TALK to my H!!)

Had a very positive interaction with H when he brought D home. He said the house smelled great, and noticed all the (clean) pots and pans I had used: "Looks like you've done some cooking!" with a smile.

Then, when he went to say goodbye to D, she put her head down, made a sad face, and shut her bedroom door in his face.

Complicating the narrative continues...

My H has made himself scarce to his friends & family that know me, so it wouldn't necessarily help. The guys in town here are pretty much shunning my H because they're disgusted with him. Not that he realizes it...

Early after BD i texted my W that I was going to see some friends after work. Ah responded "please don't make me enemies with your friends". I wanted to respond "please don't dump me". Eesh.

Nothing much exciting to report..

But I've been reading with interest Starsky's thoughts about asking the WAS to "give it a go", basically. To say something like, "I know our feelings have changed, but I believe (and there is research to support this), that action and thought can lead to changed feelings. So, now that we've had some time apart, I wanted to ask if you'd be willing to recommit to ATTEMPTING to gain back our feelings. There would be work involved and we would have to commit fully to doing that work. But, if after a reasonable period of time-- at least 6 months or more-- we feel like things haven't moved forward at all, or our feelings haven't begun to change, then we can decide to call it quits.

We never attempted this-- with expert support from someone well trained and very pro-marriage-- for a reasonable amount of time, AND while we were both actively engaged and committed to the work.

Go ahead and smack me on the head.

I know deep down this is big time pursuing and temp checking. Maybe its my hail mary. Maybe I will wait a few more months and ask him this,and if he refuses then I can say I've tried everything and I'll be ready to drop the rope and call it quits.

Claire, if he were a reasonable person, then this would be a very reasonable thing to ask of him. But he is not.

You know you shouldn't have that conversation. He will have to initiate it if that's going to happen.

Stay strong. Go ahead and drop the rope. Then see what happens.

Yes, I agree with Ahoy.

I don't know why that worked for Starsky. If it was timing or his personality or the character of their relationship leading up to her A. But I haven't seen anything about your H that makes me think he's going to respond to that in the way that you hope.

I don't want to be dealing out 2x4s here, but that's my two cents.

Claire,

I understand your frustration. I do! Here's my take. You CAN have that conversation if you so choose, although I think you know the response will not be as you hoped. Only you can decide when you are truly ready to move on and no one will fault you for moving on or continuing to stand.

Here's the truly difficult part. If your h decides he wants to give it a go, he knows you don't want a d and he knows where to find you. This isn't a 2x4 by any means.

Hang in there!

Originally Posted By: claire7

Ugh, 5 K training is not going.
I never solved some of my post-pregnancy physical issues that interfere with running (don't mean to be TMI).

If I knew then, what I know now, I'd have insisted on c-sections for each child...but hey, that's water under the bridge, and maybe it wouldn't have gone smoothly....

But, the good news is that I am starting PT again next week. Going to also try to pick up a yoga class once a week, and maybe add in some treadmill walking or biking or weight training.

To be honest, I've struggled for the past year with my sleep habits. I fall asleep on the couch every night, and wake up somewhere between midnight and 1, and then get into bed. My alarm goes off at 5:30. My D often wakes up once/night. Sometimes I do, too. That part of my life is a bit of a mess, and I'm surprised at how well I'm functioning considering I *never* get a good full night's rest.

I am exhausted. I know I need to solve this, as sleep is the key to so many other parts of my healing.

Join the club of lousy sleepers (gee, then again, here I AM Posting at 1:30 am....hmmm)

I have such a block about it though.

Even after all.this time, I hate getting into bed. I got new sheets that I love, I have a candle that smells great. And I still hate getting into bed.

Clearly I've still got a lot of work to do.

I would also love some pointers on how to get more traffic to my thread. Maybe I don't spend enough time on other people's threads. I have to give more to receive more.

No, you give plenty. I think you can post more often (shorter perhaps) and or to another forum. I don't even know what forum I'm on at the moment but I saw your name on the "active topics" pile and so, here i am (plus it's so LATE, what else would I do?!)

My BD anniversary is coming up in a couple of weeks, then my wedding the following week.

For your WEDDING anniversary, we can talk about sending a momento re: your d and the fact that you'll never regret having a child together "it's still worth remembering", or "thank you for helping me bring her into our world", etc. NOTHING about him being your h, but maybe MAYBE something good about him being a good dad--if it is reasonably believable. Don't over do it if he's been AWOL but then again, Gives him something to live up to.

Still no more mediation meetings in the works, still in limbo.

^^^Why is that all bad? Why isn't that, arguably, a positive?

Do I ever ask him when he plans to take the rest of his belongings out of the house? Or-- if we should begin splitting finances, especially if he is spending joint $$ on dating? Dare I say something like that to him?

Nope...not now at least...But you needn't keep waiting for the other shoe to drop either. More on that later

I feel like the answer is always, no-- no R talks, just GAL and worry about yourself. Limbo is good.

But this unknown is scary. Maybe I need to make some moves, like get the house appraised.

Getting it appraised is not a bad idea.

Am I entitled to access to joint bank accounts or CC accounts?

YES YOU ARE entitled access to it, and to all of the money in it ( not to close the account however so you'd have to leave $25 or something, so it doesn't look as if you "stole" it all)

CAVEAT to the above ^^^ CAVEAT CAVEAT

Legally in a final settlement, you'd get half of all marital assets.

When I said you could take all of this money, NOTE that you would have to compensate him for his half, when you guys sign the papers.

Til then however, you guys are married and if you needed to buy living room furniture and you went and charged it on the joint CC, there's nothing HE could do to stop you or claim it's not legal. IT IS legal but that does not make it a great idea.

See, while HALF of it is YOURS TO KEEP, at this time you can avail yourself of all of it, if you remember that later on when things get all settled, the money you take that exceeds your half, will need to be returned to him.

Make sense? Also, why not ask yourself the questions my L asked me to see where you land on it, okay?

IF I were you, YES I sure would access the accounts asap. WHY? BECAUSE YOU NEED TO

1) find out what the income/assets/expenses numbers really are b/c you WILL NEED them for mediation and or a divorce,

and
2) to see if (and or how much) he is spending on some OW, b/c that is money you & your offspring are entitled to,

AND OR

3) you may need some "rainy day" money sooner than you realize. (In my book, it's raining now).

FYI, after discussing it with my Lawyer back then, she asked if it as possible that my h would "go bonkers and hide money"....to which I said "NO...well, probably not.... but then again, I never thought he'd fly to Alaska and not tell me, THREE TIMES (that I know of)..." so there's that...

She said on the off chance he went nuts with money, since I had 2 kids at home with me and he'd already "forgotten" to pay our electric bill so that power nearly got cut off during the fire season, (Story to come)

IDEA-- to set aside enough money to live off of, for maybe 2 months IN CASE HE tried to screw us...b/c it would take 6 weeks or so to get an order to force him to pay support....

She also said not to touch it unless I had to and to keep a log of all expenses. So I did that. Be ready to show where it went and what the purpose was, so HE CANNOT ACCUSE YOU of mishandling money, or being deceitful about it.

I hate to admit this but I took several thousand out, per her suggestion and h never ever noticed it....ever!!....

(I sometimes think I should have bought a hot tub! OR gone to Paris with my sisters....but then, that's harder to hide from as those moves are more noticeable...)

I can't see what he spends-- he controls access to all the accounts and pays the shared CC bill. He has another card on his own, and so do I.

Looks like I need to call Chuck and my L.
and I need to get some sleep.

Keep talking to Chuck. I never had him as my coach but I had a Godsent angel for mine.
They are great. Let us know what HE thinks about all this, and keep on posting.

Hi all,

I want to thank everyone so much for the gentle and firm feedback!

You are all correct (of course). And honestly, if this M has any hope of working, he has to REALLY want it.

So, I'm working on acceptance. Bought myself some new lacy "things" (ahem). Started PT with an AWESOME T who I can tell is going to get me ready to start exercising again.

And, confession time: i resisted the urge to reach out to my H, but did, in a moment of weakness, reach out to my MIL. Well, actually SHE emailed me to say hello and ask how I was doing, how work and D3 are. Very lovely. I wrote back with details about myself, lots of good things going on in my life... and then added "I don't know if I will ever understand H's mindset or choices or beliefs (that feelings can't change, for ex), but I cannot control that. I am just working on being the best ME and mom and co-parent I can be."

(Hiding my head in shame).

As expected, crickets followed.

So, I followed up a couple of days later with an apology that I realize I had overstepped a boundary, and I want us to have a warm relationship, so the last thing I want is for her to be afraid to reach out to me b/c she thinks I'll just whack her with some awkward emotions.

She did reply to that message: I understand. I love you and D3 very much. I want us to have a close relationship, which means being open and honest. But, it's probably best if we avoid talking about H and the separation. There's just too much emotion and discomfort involved. Love, MIL

Deep breaths.

So, tomorrow, I put on my new lacy things, have a great day at work, (participating in a new special project I was chosen for!), and GAL with a friend at an art opening in a very hip part of town.

MY life goes on. :-)

Claire,

I'm always so impressed with your ability to see the other side to every single situation. Where'd you learn that?!

I'm glad you got some new lacy things, too. They do tend to do GREAT things for confidence.

Ss,
I've always been a pretty logical, scientific-minded kinda person (though I am not a scientist-- i was an English major!) I think I've always been able to see multiple sides of a situation-- except when it came to my own fears and anxiety. Then, I was totally paralyzed and blinded.

Now that my brain is not constantly flooded with "fight or flight" hormones, I can think about my own situation more logically, too.

This forum has helped a lot too. A LOT.

I wear sexy lacy things to work and you know what I'm sure it shows in my confidence and attitude. Works for me too with hair and make up. Started shaving agin even tho it's too cold to wear short skirts and sleeveless tops.

So keep it up.

Hello Claire,

Just wanted to say that I've started following your story. I see a lot of parallels with my own especially in the way that you suffer and question the situation. Hang in there, many of us are following your journey and hope for the best.

Claire, you handled the MIL thing well. But frankly, if she is going to reach out to you by sending an email, then she is the one opening the door to hear how you are doing. And how you are doing is directly connected to your H, her son, and his choices. You did not badmouth him. I thought you were pretty generous, actually, and mainly focused on yourself in a positive way.

I feel for those of you who have great relationships with their in-laws, because you are losing not only a spouse but also a family. In my case, thank goodness, my H's family has never been emotionally there for me (or ask after me or call -- even after my brain surgery). H's dad has been there for us in a pinch, physically and financially, a few times, but there has never been an emotional connection. So I guess I'm not losing much in that regard. Turns out my H is just like them (surprise!).

Hi Claire - I agree with Ahoy, I did not think you said anything you shouldn't have with MIL, you were honest about your situation and how you felt, she cannot find fault with that. And it's good she wants to remain close to you and D.

I am close to half my H's family, the other half have sided with him, met the OW and are entirely happy with his choices. It's just such a difficult situation for in-laws too.

Take care x

Fun adventures in wackadoo land:

me: can we sit down soon and go over the calendar? I feel like there are a lot of emails back and forth and it's hard to keep track.

H: Sure. But can I ask what's the confusion? I didn't think there was any confusion, I mean I'm fine to meet, but...

me: Ok, we don't have to meet, maybe we can just put it all on one email. It's hard to keep track when it's in all different threads.

H: no, it's fine to meet. I think what we have to figure out is New Year's and Thanksgiving. Did you say your family is having a party on the Saturday of Thanksgiving this year?

((Nope, no confusion at all!))
#WAHckadoo

Claire, my H refuses to look at our shared family calendar now, he's ignored it for years. (It's an ap that we all have access to, it's not like it's hard to find.) It's just going to be a ton of fun when we don't live together.

Good luck!

My H got annoyed with me the other day when I referred him to the calendar for some information: "I don't think we need to do all our communicating via Google calendar."

No, just the stuff about who, what, when and where.

Love your hashtag.

Originally Posted By: claire7

Fun adventures in wackadoo land:

me: can we sit down soon and go over the calendar? I feel like there are a lot of emails back and forth and it's hard to keep track.

H: Sure. But can I ask what's the confusion? I didn't think there was any confusion, I mean I'm fine to meet, but...

me: Ok, we don't have to meet, maybe we can just put it all on one email. It's hard to keep track when it's in all different threads.

H: no, it's fine to meet. I think what we have to figure out is New Year's and Thanksgiving. Did you say your family is having a party on the Saturday of Thanksgiving this year?

((Nope, no confusion at all!))
#WAHckadoo

I say on one hand it's not a biggie, but on the other hand

Don't meet, unless HE suggests it. Otherwise he's doing YOU a favor, which you will then "owe" him.

When you do see him, and you will, you can better show the new you.

But please realize when you say "I feel like there's a lot of emails back and forth---hard to keep track"

I bet this is what HE THINKS YOU SAID (in a shrill FISH WIFE yell, of course)

"Hey stupid H, as usual you are MUCKING up everyone's lives with Your confusing MLC mind, so can we please sit down and straighten out the mess YOU made...again...please?"

So, that's my .02 Keep calm and never describe an interaction in a way that HE can feel you are slighting him.

1) APPLAUD loudly for the 1% of positives he does,

2) Listen like a lover ,when he talks about problems (other than any OW's of course)

3) Be warm and upbeat. You can regret the divorce but mostly for HIS sake b/c deep down, we all know who is losing more. And that's the truth. And while you have regrets for your kids and for him, you actually now realize you are becoming the best Claire you have ever been, and that's pretty sweet. An inner peace is growing within you, and you are a better woman for all this crap.

In fact, you have the advantage of knowing the truth, and living it. HE doesn't.

Does this clarify or help anything for you? I'm really just thinking out loud.

A few quiet, calm, GAL days...and the rumblings are starting again. I am someone only a fool would walk away from. And I married a fool, apparently.

My heart breaks for my daughter. I walk around the city and see scores of intact families. And I have a tiny pity party. Why me.

The anger and sadness still bubble up to the surface.

But I can't really be so surprised. I had reservations when I married him. I never thought he really liked me enough. He was never able to articulate exactly why he loved me. Such a red flag that I chose to ignore because I was so grateful that someone had actually chosen me to marry. I didn't value myself enough to think I could do any better.

So here I am. It was inevitable I guess.

And my heart still feels broken even though in my head I know there is nothing really to save or even rebuild.

He seems happier and at peace. Everyone I talk to-- H, MIL, SIL, friends-- all remark at how great my D is handling everything. He has a W who is pleasant and collaborative. What incentive does he have to see it any other way? He made up his mind and can't imagine changing it-- way too risky to give up how good he's got it at the moment (mind-reading alert!!)

And frankly, when I try to picture us together again, it feels too scary for me too. To go through this again? To trust him and be betrayed when it becomes too difficult for him again? Or, perhaps worse, to realize that he is just not able to give me what I need...and to walk away from yhehim.

It's too much to think about.

I think I need to give up. Have some soul searching to do. I do not know why I am continuing to stand.

Just so you know you're not alone... I saw your post. I'm thinking about how best to respond to it. We have so many similarities in our situations that it's hard to remember sometimes all the differences, which are important. Just know you're not alone.

And. .. f'ing PMS. Just had a scheduling conversation in person. .. I was not feeling my most pleasant. And while it wasn't completely horrible, I certainly reinforced his narrative. But today I was just tired of it all.

I'm not perfect, so if being perfect is the only way I can have a snow balls chance of making this work. ..after a year... I don't think I am strong enough for that...or most importantly, I don't think I have the desire for that.

Sigh.
I hate this so so much.

Claire, you've sure put a lot of pressure on yourself. On one hand, you don't think the marriage ever worked, he's too weak to be a good husband, why bother, let's just get this ball rolling because HE doesn't have enough faith (but do you??? You don't sound as if you do).

On the other hand, you didn't do a good job of presenting yourself at your scheduling meeting, you're not perfect enough to make everything work, you don't have the desire.

I GET THE IMPATIENCE. You are shining a light on how I've looked. But where is Claire?

Labug challenged me to pick something wild and crazy to do. So far I've scheduled three things and I feel AWAKE. What about you? What wild and crazy something can you do to make you feel like life is possible no matter what happens with your H?

You are perfectly imperfect, and someone who loves you should love your imperfections because they are what make you you.

Only change the things that you want to change for you - don't try to be somebody else for anybody else

25,
Thank you. It really means a lot to me when you check in. You were one of the first vets to hold me accountable and I think of your words to me often.

This particular exchange (about the calendar "confusion" did happen in person, as he dropped off D.

As for your very wise advice... I get it. I really, really do. And I know I still have work to do because he does push my buttons and half the time when I see him I want to punch him in the nose.

I'm trying to do all that you said. But yesterday and today the PMS on top of everything got to me and I guess I was feeling selfish or impatient or both.

I'm not proud of how I handled myself today. But I want to cut myself some slack. My MIL came to visit H and D yesterday, and D and H spent the morning with our his friends and their kids.

I am literally the only person in the world doing anything to try to save this marriage. Does his mom or his friends (a couple of whom have seen me recently) ever ask him to rethink it or whether it's worth it????

God I am in the middle of such a pity party and there is NO ice cream in the house. No 2x4's needed... I've already bopped myself on the head.

I could use a hug. Or twelve.

Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug
Hug

Originally Posted By: claire7

But I can't really be so surprised. I had reservations when I married him. I never thought he really liked me enough. He was never able to articulate exactly why he loved me. Such a red flag that I chose to ignore because I was so grateful that someone had actually chosen me to marry. I didn't value myself enough to think I could do any better.

Yep, those red flags. I've been thinking this lately, too. I should have probably thought a little more when I issued the "If you're not going to marry me, I'm going to move out and rethink this - I only moved in with you because you said we were definitely getting married" ultimatum. Why should I have been OK with someone that finally said yes only under those circumstances? We were together for so long and starting so young I just couldn't envision any other outcome but us getting married and continuing on. I'm struggling now with whether I just "settled" or if I did truly make the best decision at the time and thought he was what I wanted.

I think you were the one that said a family member told you to marry someone who loved you or was into you a little more than you were to them. I do feel that I put a lot more effort and care into him/our R than he did towards me. Maybe we can't do anything about this R but if nothing else hopefully it gives us things to consider and red flags to watch out for next time - for me it's going to be loving someone for exactly who they are and not what I think they could be given time/work/"fixing up" etc.

This is all with a virtual hug, of course

Claire, like you, I'm feeling rather self centered but I do know that there's no such thing as perfection. It's impossible. We should be loved because of and despite our flaws. We deserve that. We do.

((((Hugs))))

It's ok to be self centered right now.

Your idiot husband is far from perfect. It's so easy for us to focus on our flaws, but what about theirs - which I would argue are much bigger doozies...

No scorecards allowed, remember?

Thanks all. Especially for the hugs.

Claire,

I'm sorry you are having a rough time. Personally, I prefer gelato:-). Sending you hugs. You will get through this and be even better than ever.

Thanks.

Intellectually I know that. I really do.

But this morning? When my D cried, "don't go mama" and I realized I won't see her until after work tomorrow since she is staying with H tonight....

I'm feeling a lot of anger this morning. I hate him for this right now.

Ok, I've calmed down a bit. And maybe I have reached a new step. I just don't have much interest in him right now. i'm at the point where I cannot completely put on a smiley face without any expectations or feelings behind it at all... but I sent him a logistical email today (just to confirm something we had needed to figure out) that was totally detached. Not friendly, not angry. Just the facts, ma'am.

His reply was similar in tone.

I think I'm better off without him. I mean, I certainly am at the moment.

Aside from the massive amount of grief I've had to work through, I'm stronger, happier, more confident, more at peace than perhaps ever in my life.

I'm letting go.

HIS LOSS.

Yep. And your gain.

Aside from the hatred, awesome stuff, Claire. You have no idea how inspirational that is for me to hear at the moment. Strong and independent.

And I'm assuming you have D3 tonight? Yay

Originally Posted By: claire7

I'm stronger, happier, more confident, more at peace than perhaps ever in my life.

Pretty powerful stuff. I hope you frame that and put it up on your wall, Claire!

Me too, Claire! It's a great feeling, isn't it? I hope it lasts.

Had a rare moment last night of truly missing my H. His friend posted some pics from her wedding. I saw them because he was tagged. He looked nice. Bright blue eyes, nice smile.

I haven't missed HIM as a person for a long while.

Then, when I saw him this morning, my feelings shifted.

I saw this man, who up and left his wife a year ago, and still can barely look her in the eye and say good morning, even when she is friendly and dressed and ready for work. I saw a man who is socially awkward and still struggling with guilt and shame at what he has done. I saw a man who is weak and afraid. This man who told me it took him a lot of courage to leave, this man who told me for months how hard this all was on him, and how tired and stressed he was-- I want no part of this man.

Claire, I really needed to hear what you just said. I am missing my H today too, but as you mention, it's hard to really miss or want a man who would be doing all these destructive behaviors and then wallowing in their own self-pity. It's not attractive. Still, I hurt. I guess it just takes time to get over that.

Onto #9. Turning a corner i think.
claire #9