Hello.
In all honesty, I never would have thought I'd be writing a post on a divorce/ marriage centric forum, at least not the me two years ago.
Here's my story:
My wife and I have married for 15 years. We have two sons, 9 & 12. I had the M that was the envy of all my relatives and friends. She was my best friend. We never spent more than a couple days apart in the first 12 years of M. We were living our dream, even though we weren't/aren't a wealthy, that didn't matter, we had everything we needed.
Then the prproblems started. About two years ago she went back to work after our youngest went to school. I had worked 6/7 days a week so she could stay at home and be with them. The job is in the social work field and deals with an immense amount of stress. But she stayed because we needed the money. Her attitude started to worsen. She was already taking anxiety meds . They made her feel like a zombie, so she stopped taking them.
All this time her temper was getting shorter and the mood swings more drastic. Then there was the straw that broke the camel's back, her grandfather died. She was extremely close to him and he was her last connection to her father's side (her father passed when she was 21). She fell into a deep depression that lasted months. All the while working and maintaining a household. I and her family pleaded with her to seek help. But she refused to get help, either medically, professional, or spiritual. She would mention that if it weren't for our boys, she would take her own life. Of course this hurt me deeply, as I had lost a younger brother to suicide nine years ago, I once again felt helpless
She started self medicating with booze. Which just made things worse.
Last summer she drops the bomb and gives me the ILYBNILWY diatribe. That tore my heart out. I did all the don't dos: begged, pleaded, cried, blamed, etc.. She wanted to leave. Started looking for an apartment. I was getting depressed. Finally I convinced her to see a MC. She only went to please me though. The C said to either poop or get off the pot. She decided to stay. All of this was about nine months ago.
I am no saint either. I have my own battles with jealousy, self esteem, abandonment issues that have worked their magic on our M. I realize how exhausting that kind of behavior can be now after scouring the internet for any and everything R related.
Everything seemed to be going well for awhile. We even went on our first family vacation we had a great time. Not two weeks after that we had some issues that I wouldn't drop concerning intimacy. That's when she told me she wanted a D. I was shocked, hurt, and angry. She agreed to a separation instead. Stating she didn't want a D. We lived in the same house until 8/20. Since we aren't financially able to afford an apartment, I had a buddy I could stay with and she would stay at her mother's. Leaving our boys at the house at all times as to not to disrupt their lives anymore than we had to. I got three nights at home while she got four.
It has been THE HARDEST time I've ever experienced. Harder than losing my brother. My chest constantly aches. The praying hasn't stopped. The loneliness unbearable.
I've been trying to better myself. Meditating. Being more independent. Trying to be positive. It's just seems pointless sometimes. This wasn't supposed to happen. But it has. I have to accept that.
Last week she tells me we are taking the boys to a fair we go to annually. We had a great time. She was drinking and tells me she'd you know what but didn't want to cloud our situation.
I stayed the night on the couch.
The next morning she is back into her moody self. Claiming that she doesn't see us reconciling and that I'll never change. I said I am positive and hopeful. That I am not giving up on our M. I got frustrated because we had agreed not to discuss M/R untbuddyer an agreed upon time had passed. I left, more hurt. Leaving in huff I had forgotten my suitcase. I went to retrieve it after work the next day. She was there and said she wanted to talk. At first I said I was in a hurry but would listen. She said she can't drag this out anymore and can't do the back and forth from her mom's. She wants me to stay at my friend's full time. Now, this is when I calmly, but firmly, tell her that is unacceptable. It is my home too. That is not the plan we had agreed on. If she didn't want the back and forth then she could leave full time. She didn't want that either. So I left, saying I would pick up boys from school and continue with the original plan.
This is where I stand today. Fighting to keep the M I have committed to the last 15 year of my life. I love her too much to give up. Even though she's ready to throw in the towel, I am not.
I have ordered DR and it can't get here soon enough.
I am tired of feeling this way...broken.
Thank you all for the inspiring posts I've read so far. Very encouraging.
I have more to my sitch. The initial post was done on my tiny phone last evening. We don't have internet at our home. So I was attempting to do it all on the phone, which became frustrating seeing that I have sausage fingers. So, I am writing on my work computer.
Since my W starting back to work several years ago she's been going out regularly with friends (all single mind you) and coworkers. Mostly the bar scene is where she'd go. Which didn't settle well with me and my feelings of insecurity and jealousy. My W is an attractive woman and I felt that scene was dangerous. I mentioned this several times, but she reassured me I had nothing to worry about. I routinely had to pick her up (waking my two young boys up and loading them into the car) because I didn't want her driving the 30 miles (we live in the country) back in that condition. The 1st few times I didn't mind. I knew she'd be safe at home if I was the one to get her. Then she started to get sick on some of the rides home, in front of the boys. I know I'm portraying her as a F up, but she is a really responsible and hard working person. She's a dedicated (almost too over-protective) mother. She is a neat freak and a "bossy" personality. We went out less and less together, while she went out more and more without me.
Her issues with me are that she can't rely on me and that I am more like "another child" to her. Which I understand...to a point. She is a control freak and I am an easy going people-pleaser. So I let her make all the big decisions and run the household and pay the bills. I mainly was the bread winner and let her control all aspects of our lives. Which now, I understand, has caused her to slowly build up resentment, contempt, and anger towards me. I feel ashamed and failure that I couldn't step up and be the man she desired, wanted to be with. I'm working on that, trust me, it's all I can do.
As far as OM. I don't know for sure. I don't have any conclusive evidence of a PA or an EA to back up any of my suspicions. I do know she has reconnected with old BF(whom she claims was not a "BF" but just a friend with benefits)a few years ago. At first I was very upset, insecure, and jealous. But she maintained that he is "just a friend" and "I had nothing to worry about". I have met him a few times and hung out, he seemed like a stand up guy. She claims she "never would do anything. I don't feel that way about him.". So I backed off and tried to hide my feelings on the matter. She texts him almost daily and has hung out with him alone on certain occasions. This always burned me up inside and I'd snap at her or give the cold shoulder. She knew this "friendship" upset me, but was unwilling to stop it despite my feelings.
I love her deeply and I want to save our M. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. I am trying to keep my head up, but some days the fear and constant pain get too much to endure. Keep us and our family in your prayers as I will all of yours.
Thank you and peace be with you.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thanks for the reply. I'm having a difficult time "detaching" . Haven't found an effective method in doing so. The hurt is like an annoying itch that I can't seem to leave be. Trying to occupy myself with busy work and my children. I try not to let it consume me, but not an hour passes that I don't end up scratching that sucker. I feel like a junkie who gives in after a lame attempt at kicking the habit.
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Peace
I read that both DB and DR are similar, but both must reads. Some prefer one over the other. I have ordered DR since the majority of posts I've read on the subject recommend it over DB.
Question: Are both needed or can one simply use DR?
I ask because, being on a budget, I don't see being to get a hold of both feasible at the present moment.
Thanks
Peace
Hi Ikymk, my local library had DR but not DB, might be worth a look if budget is tight.
So sorry you're here and going through all this, take heart and know that you will get through this. The detachment is really hard, and something I think we all struggle with, but it does get better. Keep posting, and read other threads. I'm new here too, and others will chime in with better advice, just wanted to say hi, and let you know someone's reading.
Thanks NewLeaf, I really appreciate the sentiment. I read a lot about your sitch yesterday, in fact. Very inspiring and gave me hope for myself to see how motivated and focused you (and others) are at battling these obstacles/struggles and the determination to GAL. I have been reading this board in my little amount of free time I have. So glad I stumbled upon it. Seemed the most solution based site I've seen so far.
Hi there,
newbie (well, going into three months here) at this myself and I know what you mean. Its often described as a rollercoaster by those on here and its true. Some days are fine, everything seems like it can be handled and managed and flows and others can be just awful.
I can say though that while the book(s) are a must read to get the most out of the discussions here the resources and the people who post their advice make things just that smallest bit easier.
No one can promise how your sitch will turn out but post here, as often as you can even if its just to virtually rant and it can help immensely.
Hold on in there and take those first suggestions to heart even when they seem impossible
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take care,
Ed
Thank you, edz. I am trying. Hard to get motivated. Not seeing my boys everyday and waking up in my own house that I worked my tail off for. Knowing that she just wants to give up on what we both worked on so hard to get. Really flipping painful.
Another up and down weekend. Had my annual function that I do with a bunch of my high school buddies. Took my boys to the Saturday and Sunday morning portions. The wife was at her sister's watching her children all weekend.
She came to pick the boys up at about mid day Sunday. She was stoic and icy towards me. I hadn't told but a few of my friends of our sitch. She didn't know whom I have told, so she might of felt awkward being there. I was hurt by her behavior, but didn't show it, at least I don't think I showed any pain by her seemingly endless rejection.
It's always good to see her in the flesh, but that feeling quickly dissipates when she greets me with that cold poker face and dead eyes. No physical affection. Her half-hearted, weak hugs. It's hard to see the one you have committed the rest of your life to "give up" and "check out" of our M.
All this holding back my true feelings and just portraying this facade that "everything is okay" and "I'm doing great without you" seems counterproductive to me. I'm trying to understand how this is going to help heal things, or if it ever will. I try not to let it consume me. I need all the help and support I can get. Seems like this will pull us farther apart.
Then, as I was leaving the "guys' weekend" ordeal and preparing to head to my buddy's whom I stay with when I'm not allowed to live in my own house, she texts and tells me the water heater is leaking profusely. I tell her I'm on my way. I get there and assess the situation. Turn it off, drain it, and all that, nothing else I could do. I know nothing about water heaters. She says I can stay the night since it was late and my buddy's house is 45 min away. She was amiable, but very business-like and forthright in her conversations. I avoided any R/M talk.
I get up this morning, tell her I'll call the repair man. I say "Good Bye and I love you" to my sons. She one arm hugs me weakly and tells me she loves me flatly. I turn and drive to work in a bummed mood.
Sometimes I wish I didn't have such strong feelings for her, then it would be easier to detach and move on. But I refuse to give up on us or me.
Sorry you are here buddy. I'm in the same exact boat. There are lots of people here who can help you.
Whenever I think about that dead eyed stare, I do 100 push-ups. Seriously. It's the quickest thing you can do to get your mind off of it.
Thanks, 1foot. She's getting increasingly cold and snippy here these past few weeks. It's starting to turn my hurt into anger every time we have any kind of interaction. I just don't understand how she can treat me so callously when we've shared so much greatness together. I would never treat her this way.
I've had the same thoughts. Especially since, while my M had problems before the BD, there had been no real lessening in affection between the two of us. One day, lots of kisses and ILUs, next day: zero. The only thing you can do is see it as their defense mechanism against the hurt and fear they are feeling (though dont dwell on that too long) and focus on yourself.
Focus on the Sandi rules for your everyday interactions. Internalizing those really turned around my everyday interactions with W, and she noticed right away. Dealing with the conversations that we NEED to have is my challenge now.
It's awkward and frustrating. For so many years to go from saying "I love you" at the end of every night or parting for the day or at the end of every text to this, nothing, like she's a colleague or casual acquaintance or something.
I actually printed out Sandi's rules the other day. I have them in my pocket. Just need to read them more and more until they sink in, I guess.
Thanks, man, for the support.
I get the cold dead eyes.
I also get the snippy and cold treatment.
My W , who still lives at home, is constantly hostile towards me. It's like I make her skin crawl. When we are around each other her shoulders hunch up and her face tenses up. It doesnt matter what we are doing or where we are. Sitting together at a football game and she is laughing and jovial with a fellow parent and she turns to me and the hostility just spews out with every word she says. part of it is our perception, part of it is just the WAW.
This is a tough sitch but also similar to many others. I agree with the others that you need to follow sand's rules. Detaching and GALing is very hard. We all know what you mean. You feel horrible, your chest hurts and her attitude and behavior confuses you. Keep in mind that she is in a different world right now. She really is a different person. The best advice is to slow down the process as much as you can, be patient and just find "yourself". Chasing after her, pleading with her and trying to use logic will not work. Logic does not TRUMP emotion.
You need to back up and give her space. Hard as it is, you need to stop wondering about her and what she is doing. We all have spouses who are cheating on us, lying to us or just walking away. It s*cks. But the more you focus on her, the harder this will be.
I also would look inwardly at the things that you did "wrong" in the M and start to fix those. Start to make those changes for yourself and she might notice.
Good luck with this process.
Thank you, Shodan. It is difficult. More difficult than basic training. I appreciate all the support and advice. It's really reassuring to know I'm not alone in my experience. GALing is one of my issues she addressed on a regular basis. It's something I need to force myself to focus on at this time. I see no other way to maintain my sanity. Thank you again.
As much as you want to talk to her, hold her, etc., it will not work. She is on her own journey, one that may end without you. I know that is hard to read/hear. But once you realize that you cannot control her, the better off you will be. We all have good and bad days (frankly, good and bad minutes). The more that you can detach from her and just move forward, the better you will be.
Welp, had the repairman come out Monday and take a look at the water heater. $1,500 for new one, plus labor. Needless to say, this made my day, since we're living paycheck to paycheck anyway. One of the only silver linings: at least she won't have money (for now, at least) for filing a D. And this might buy me time. She had already rose a stink about how much we're spending. Gas: We use to ride together to work and back. Now we drive our own vehicles. So that's one added expense. Her new vehicle payments. Mortgage. Utilities. My measly rent I give to my buddy. Food for home and my other place. Stuffs adding up...fast. I know this is getting to her since she was/is the one that took care of the finances.
We have an agreement that whoever is not at home will call @ 8 each evening to talk to the boys. Last evening she called, she seemed to be in a better mood, and she talked longer than usual. Something we always use to do in the evenings. She even said "I love you." it sounded sincere. But she still refuses/hasn't said the other phrase we always said after "I love you." (a phrase from both our favorites book). I quit saying it about a week ago, because it hurt when she'd blandly spit back at me like it was ashes in her mouth.
Doing better today, after reading a lot of your posts I felt myself getting motivated.
I-99
SOrry to see ya here, but seriously ... you found this place at a good spot in your sitch ... and IF you listen, read, (The books and this forum) you will find yourself in a better place. I had a spot in May of 2013 that I think if I started DB, I would not have gone through this 10months and counting separation.
Things I came away with your sitch is ... she still says ILY, even if its flat, half heartedly ... thats better than what a few of us have had said to us. .... hold onto that
Second ... stop focusing on her and what she is doing, You realize you need to GAL, so do that ... however as the word has started to spread DB is a triple-thread ... you also need to add in PMA and 180's .... the 180's are the curve ball, they will stop and make your W think about what you are doing .. you do all these things for YOU ... not her .. and don't point em out, she will notice. Read the books ... stay positive, understand you have this gift of time to work on YOU ... do that, don't worry about what she is doing, you can not control that anyways.
I see alot of myself in your sitch, as I am sure many will ... we are all at different stages, you can learn alot just by taking bits and pieces from us all.
Good Luck.
The easiest 180 to do is to detach yourself from situations where you need W to give you some kind of affection. Early after BD, I was a wreck, trying to talk to W all the time, desperate for any sign in her words, staying physically near her. She would often ask if I wanted a hug, and saying that I looked like I needed consoling. Once I completely removed myself from that, every day life got MUCH easier, and she noticed right away.
I finally received DR on Friday, been reading it every chance I get. Soaking it all in and trying to stick on it as much as humanly possible.
Another frustrating Sunday (yesterday). I took my S's to my dad's for the weekend. Had a good time. W finally got some alone time she'd been wanting and not getting.
We arrived home around noon to drop the boys off. We had a nice, calm visit initially. Exchanged our weekend stories, what we did, what she did. Talked about her family, my family, stuff around the house, etc.. Even took our annual family photo in the front yard. Then she started into the M/R discussion, which I've tried calmly and firmly to avoid, and her belief that "all is lost" and she sees "no hope" for the M. How she has been "looking into all possible scenarios" for the outcome of this separation (i.e. divorce laws in our state and all the red tape that entails). I reacted calmly and stated that I'm sticking with the original plan of "not discussing M/R matters until the scheduled time we both had agreed upon." I stated that my goals have not changed and I will not give up on us, even though she's expressed repeatedly that her view is one that is opposite of mine and sees no remedy to our M/R. This frustrated me and I told her (calmly) I was going. This seemed not to phase her. I can't seem to steer the convo away from all her negative M/R talk. It is all discouraging every time she expresses her hopelessness concerning our M/R. She maintains she still wants to be "friends" and still have a "family" type lifestyle (cake-eating, I believe they refer to it as), just doesn't want to be married to me.
I won't give up, it means too much to me. I just hope she can see out of her negative tunnel she seems to be stuck in.
Oh, I almost forgot- I don't know if this qualifies as an 180: I am a incurable baseball fan and my team was playing in the first game of their playoffs last Thursday evening. Usually I would sit at home and listen on the radio, because we do not have cable/satellite. The buddy I have been staying with doesn't have either as well. So I went to the small town near his farm and watched it at the local tavern. Every evening, the spouse that is away from home, will call to wish the boys a good night. That night when I called, she asked how my day/night went, as we always do. I mentioned that I went to the local tavern, ALONE, and watched the game. Her reply was one of astonishment. As that is sooo out of my character (I loathe the bar scene...most of the time anyway.). I don't know for sure if this had any impact on her or not. All I know is that I did something out of my comfort zone and actually enjoyed it. Any thoughts DBers?
Peace!
"Oh, I almost forgot- I don't know if this qualifies as an 180:"
I don't think you understand what the difference is between a 180 and just GAL. What you did was just GAL. It's not a 180 in terms of relationship behavior.
Did you read the books?
MrBond,
Thanks for the reply.
Just received DR last Friday. Been reading it every chance I can (I'm suppose to be working now).
After several weeks of reading this forum, I think I know the difference between GAL and 180, but I may be wrong.
My point was: Since going to a bar, by myself, was so out of my character and not who I am (or was), did that qualify as an 180? Or is GAL? Or both?
Thanks again,
IKYMK99
It's still GAL. 180s are changes in behaviors to things that your WAS didn't like. So if your W didn't like you not helping around the house, a 180 would be to clean the house.
It seems that I only write about my Sundays. That is the day we have our planned "family time", but the past two have been pretty much her and I hanging out while the boys do their own thing (weather was the issue this past Sunday). This past Sunday I got home from church with the boys and just spent time with them until she arrived. She rolled in a little after 3pm. She didn't look well. I asked how her evening went (she always goes out on Saturday nights with the same single girlfriends to the same bar). She said she got way too drunk and fell over some speakers while dancing. I asked if she was fine. Didn't get judgemental or anything, just sort of smiled and kept my cool. Then she mentioned that she slow danced with a guy. Again, I kept my composure and tried not to let any emotions of jealousy or anger take over. She then disclosed other details of her evening (the ones she could remember anyways). Through it all I kept a mode of detatchment and one of an interested friend. This behavior had been a frequent argument of ours, but I chose to just listen and laugh at the appropriate times. This seemed to help with all the flourish of emotions that kept nagging at me to say something judgemental or hurtful.
She stayed the evening at her mom's. Her mom has been dealing with alot of stress as well with her parents (W's grandparents). And it is taking its toll on her, that and the issues that me and my W are having is adding more stress to her life. My MIL is a good woman and I am grateful that she and my W have eachother vent and lean on while we're going through this S.
Then the convo turned to R/M. I tried to avoid it. But her attitude was one I couldn't ignore. She was crying and expressed that she wished things were "good again" and that she "doesn't know what to do". It was hard to ignore, so I validated her and listened as she expressed her feelings. Then after about three minutes of silence, she put her head on my shoulder and slung her arm around me. This initially made me very happy and grateful, for this was the first REAL physical connection we've had in months. I just held her and reassured her that things were going to be okay. We spent the rest of the day on the couch while she snuggled up to me. When it was time for me to go to my buddy's, she asked if I'd like to stay the night. I said, "Of course.". But she empasized that "No sex." was going to be had, which I didn't expect there to be, I was just stoked that she wanted my to stay. I knew she needed me. When it came time for bed, I was reaching for my pillow and was ready to head to the couch when she told me she wanted to sleep in our bed together! This totally made my night. We went to bed. I didn't sleep much. I just kept thanking God and relishing the moment. In the morning, we hugged for a long time before I got up to get ready to leave for work. Before I left the house, she came to the door, hugged me again, and told me "Thank you for staying. I love you.". I said, "My pleasure. I love you." then left.
All day I was in a good mood, but I know her mood is a roller coaster and I didn't let it get to my head, but still, it made me hopeful again since she had expressed that she had "no hope" for our M just a week prior.
Last night, at my buddy's, we were getting ready to go to our respected rooms for the night when my phone alerted me of a text. Not expecting it to be the W, I looked, I was shocked to see it was her, especially since it was almost 11pm and she goes to bed at 8:30pm. She said she "Couldn't Sleep." I texted her that I couldn't last night because I was stoked to be in our bed together again. She replied that she wished I was "here and we would be good again, was nice to be with you yesterday." She then said we could "spend a couple nights together a week and see how that goes? I don't like you not being here, but don't want to go all in and f*** it up worse." I agreed. She told me she loved me again and said good night.
I was/am excited, but cautious at the same time. I don't want to ruin or miss this opportunity. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. All of you are awesome and I value your input highly.
Thank you and Peace
She texted again last night. Wanted us both to make a list of what we want the other to "do or not do" in reference to our R/M/Sitch. I don't know really what to make of this, we've pummeled this subject into the ground countless times.
My question to all of you is: Do I consider making said list or just let it go and see if she continues to push the matter? Such a mind****.
if you do make a list, don't point out things she should do. concentrate on expectations you have for yourself. if she sees you are committed to improving yourself, i can't help but believe she follow suit on herself and that would lead her to be more introspective into her issues. if you must list things, concentrate on positive things you would like to continue. this is a chance (if you decide its best) to improve communication skills. just my two cents.
Okay, thank you, bravo, for the good input. That's a nice place to start, with steering things to the positive.
I've been hashing this over and over this week. I have listed a number of things:
Do's for W
-be more patient
-be more/focus on positive
-take time to yourself and relax
-have hope for our R/M
-try to have healthier lifestyle
-think about getting professional help w/depression & drinking
-spend time together
Don'ts for W
-let job stress determine your mood
-sweat the small stuff
-try to control everything
-give up on M
-drink to excess
-be in such a rush the majority of the time
-lose your real identity
-take everything seriously
If any or all of these seem too pushy or negative, I'd like to know. Or if anybody has any suggestions, I'd love to read them.
Thank you
[/b][b]
I'd really like anyone's feedback on the above list. We will be discussing this subject tomorrow.
Thank you
Now it's at the bottom of page 3.
Ikymk99,
You are walking into a landmine with this list. I do not believe your wife is in a stable frame of mind. I believe if you give her the list you wrote it will start a huge fight that will destroy your marriage.
You don’t know what caused the sudden change in your wife’s behavior or what motivated her movement back to your marriage. Pointing out her flaws will only anger her. She won’t be receptive. The list you wrote should be given to your wife under the strict supervision of a marriage counselor.
If I could translate your list this is what you wrote:
“My wife is a very impatient and scattered person. She is negative about our marriage and lives a very unhealthy lifestyle. I am fairly certain she has mental health issues and wish she would consider professional help for depression and alcoholism. She suffers from mood swings, sweats the small stuff and is a control freak. I wish she would just learn to relax and stop taking life so seriously. I don’t think she even knows who she is any more. One thing I’m sure about—she has given up on the marriage.”
Maybe a better list would be something not so personal. For example, the “Do List” would have:
-Move back home full time.
-Agree to a date night.
-Agree to marriage counseling.
The “Don’t List” would have:
-Don’t use the word “divorce”
-Don’t go to bars without me. (I think this is a huge issue with you. You said you believe this scene is dangerous. I agree. She should know you feel this way. If she says you have nothing to worry about you reply, “You asked me to write a “don’t list”)
-Don’t text, email, call or socialize with men who are not your relatives unless I am with you. (Again-She texts another man “almost daily and has hung out with him alone on certain occasions” and “this always burned you up inside” which caused you to “snap at her or give the cold shoulder.” This shouldn’t be a surprise since you say she already knows this "friendship" upsets you but is unwilling to stop it despite your feelings.)
We already know what is going to be on her list. You said she doesn’t feel she can rely on you and you are more like “another child” to her. You are an easy-going people-pleaser.
As a man, you need to understand how these qualities can equally attract and repeal.
Easy-going people-pleasers are wonderful to be married to. They are attentive and thoughtful. They are warm and considerate. They are selfless and hard-working.
But they rarely tell their spouse how they really feel and suffer in silent fury instead of expressing their anger. The result is they often become conflict avoidant grudge holders who piously punish their spouse in passive aggressive ways because their spouse failed to mind read and give them what they wanted.
Easy-going people-pleasers usually respond to problems in a marriage with genuine hand-wringing despair about their failure as a spouse. But rarely engage in conflict-resolution.
Something you did very right (and should be applauded for) was your refusal to move out of your home. I can’t imagine how difficult this was for you. But, you took control of your marriage and forced her to make a decision—If she wanted out then she could leave. It appears your strong position has given her pause to think.
You should examine other choices you made and ask yourself when you should have taken a stronger stand.
You said you live paycheck to paycheck. But you also said your wife has new vehicle payments. Do you mean you bought a “brand new” car while living paycheck to paycheck? Or do you mean you had to buy a car even though you were living paycheck to paycheck (like the emergency with the water heater) and you bought the best car you could within your budget?
Money is a huge issue in marriage. Believe it or not, there is a stronger probability your wife will leave if you keep building debt then if you build assets. Do not keep sinking into a mountain of debt while your wife is watching single friends “enjoy” a carefree lifestyle. The temptation to run away, find someone else and start over will kick in. Especially when she watches men with money romance her girlfriends.
Keep a clear head and a clear set of expectations when you meet with your wife tomorrow. Anything you say will probably trigger an argument, so keep your list short, neutral and positive.
When she gives her list…which is probably the “real” reason for the meeting (she wants to tell you her needs) listen, parrot back, compliment, ask for input, and then make her a change agent.
For example, if she says, “I want you to take more control of the finances.”
You respond. “I can see how taking more control of the finances would be a positive thing for our marriage. I think you have been very smart about our finances so I would like your input as we transition and restructure everything. What do you think? Can we work as a team on this?”
Incredible advice, that I am also hearing loud and clear. Read and re read this ikymk!
Hope414, thank you sooo much for the valuable insight.
I read your post yesterday morning. Read it probably 12 times in fact. I knew my list sounded accusatory, blaming her for most of the problems.
I revised the list and steered it to things we BOTH needed to work on or things that she had mentioned she wanted/needed in the past:
-move back home together
-spend time by herself, ALONE in a relaxing environment
-have dates with me
The only "don't" I had was not to use or think about the "D" word.
Her list for me was fairly simple were things she usually asked of me:
-clean up after myself
-go out w/ my friends more (GAL separate from her socially, which I've been doing fairly regular)
-Keep busy
We had a very positive interaction and even spent the evening cuddling on the couch together. We both plan on moving forward slowly and patiently.
Thank you very much, Hope, that meant alot to me to hear the things you wrote. Really made me take a step back and see it from that accusatory angle you mentioned. Made a ton of sense to me.
Peace
Haven't written in awhile. Things just got real "real" . She went out with her friends last night, I stayed home will our sons.like we've done all through this separation. She texts me at 2 this morning telling me she wants to be picked up from her mom's. I went and got her. She was still drunk. First thing she says when she gets into the car is that she has had an affair. Some one night stand a couple of weeks ago, when she started to come around to wanting to work things out, incidentally. She says she feels "gross" and "ashamed" . I was/am pissed. She expressed remorse, but no tears. She says she doesn't know what she wants. I said I am hurt an angry, but I don't know either. So hurt now.
Please help. I don't know what to do.
Ikym, I'm really sorry to hear this. Most people on these boards have had to deal with the revelation of infidelity at some point, and there is no getting around how excruciating it is.
You're asking what to do - and the best advice right now is do nothing. Give yourself time to absorb. Avoid saying things, however justified, that you might regret later. Take care of yourself and your boys for the next few days and check back here often.
Thanks. The wound is still fresh. So confused now. The biggest down slope of the roller coaster so far.
I know this sounds crazy, but this is the time now to be your best self before this affair goes farther. Can you guys get away for a vacation together asap? Rebuild some positivity, be spontaneous? I wish I would have done this.
My weekly report:
As you recall, last Sunday (the 26th ) she told me she had a one night stand in late September. I was, of course, devastated and furious. I drove around cussing and yelling for awhile. Then I thought" I love her.I can forgive her. "I went home. She was sleeping. I woke her and told her I forgive her and want to get past this. The rest of the day was awkward and painful. We ended up having sex. We both felt better and close. I mentioned we should get away sometime soon. She agreed.
So all last week I was planning a getaway which she was into. We even blew off the last hour of work Thursday to meet up for beer. Which was awesome. I had dinner with her at the house. Made out before I left. She texts me later wishing that I'd stayed. But I knew we'd be together Friday for the boy's Halloween.
Halloween she was a complete 180. Angry, impatient, acting like a baby.
Saturday I worked in the yard most the day. We had a decent day. Took a nap together and had sex. Then she went to her girlfriend' s then her mom's. Texted telling me she loved me.
Then yesterday after I got home from church with the boys, she was there and I could tell she was not right. We had planned to go on a drive to look at fall colors. About ten minutes in she says she's "filing" . Of course I was shocked, since everything seemed to be getting better. I reverted to pleading and reasoning. She wouldn't budge.
She says I "deserve better" than her" craziness" . I told her it doesn't matter how crazy she is, I'd be there with her.
She wasn't having it.
I left got drunk and called my dad
She called later and said she "doesn't know what she wants. She can't live with or without me".
I am hurt and don't know what to do.
I wish she'd get professional help. But I can't force her.
Please pray for us.
Thank you.
Really need some help. The panicky feelings are starting to dominate my days.
Monday night (the day following the "I'm going to file" conversation) I called from my buddy's place and told her I was going to come home tomorrow night and stay. Since is her decision to leave, I was angry and told her she could either stay with us and work on R or get out. She said that was fair since it is her wanting out of M.
Got home with boys last night and all her belongings were boxed up by back door.
I started feeling sick.
She called later and I told her I was speaking out of anger and fear. I don't want to disrupt the boys lives this way. She got pissed and said I needed to make a decision.
She currently is staying at mil one room apartment.
So confused and lost right now.
What do I do?
Please, any input into this would greatly be appreciated.
I read to stay in the house is a favorable stance, but I don't want our S's lives to be disrupted...anymore than they already are.
If I go back on my "ultimatum" it looks like indecisiveness or waffling.
Input, please!
Thank You!
Hi Ikymk99, yes, staying in the house is important at this point. Is it possible for your sons to stay in the house with you?
If you will permit me to ask, you mentioned that you were feeling "panicky". What do you think are causing these feelings? What is it that you fear most? Good luck.
Thank you, wet,for the response.
I already spoke with her this evening. I decided to go back to the original arrangement of me at house four days and her here four. My sons need stability during this time, so I put their needs first, of course.
Once she gets her own place that is big enough they can stay with her. Which I hope is a long time (hopefully never) .
As far as the" panicky" feelings, I think it's fear of everything becoming so real and my ideal family not existing anymore. All I've envisioned for our future being stripped away. I am trying to accept it, but the anxiety and pain start to overwhelm and take over. I need to frame this in a positive light, I know, but damn, it kills the spirit it feels like.
I still hold out hope. Need to focus on me and my boys for now. Get through this a new and stronger man. A man me and my boys can be proud of.
Hello,
I have been trying to LRT these past few days. It's been really hard to do. She dropped the "I'm going to file" B last Sunday. She's packed up her belongings and has been staying at her mom's while she is looking for apartments. We have only talked on phone each night as she tells the boys good night.
I know the LRT states to be upbeat and not ask any R/M questions. Which I've done.
My question is concerning the "Don't say 'ILY'" part of LRT. She has maintained through all of our Sitch that "I'm her best friend", "the second most important person (S's are 1st of course) in her life", "that she loves me". She still says ILY after each of our interactions. Til now I've always reciprocated the phrase. Now, that she is set on not being my W, I find it difficult to say it back, because I DO love her and do not want to lie and not say it or say anything.
Now,the question is: I know LRT means that I am not the one to say ILY 1st, but what is the proper way to respond if the WAW is the one saying it 1st? Say it back or not? Very hard to know for sure how to respond. I don't want to come off as a cold-hearted jerk. Or if I do say it, I feed her reassurance that I'm "Okay" with her doing this to our family.
What, my friends and fellow DBers, do you think?
Thank you all. Keep up the good fight.
I have said it back a couple times, and not on other occasions. Hard to tell over the phone how she is reacting.
Hi Ikymk99,
Well, maybe learn from my mistake. I would spar with my W every time she told me that she loved me. I would tell her she doesn't understand what love really is. I don't think this was helpful.
Perhaps just a simple acknowledgment, like saying 'thank you' and leaving it at that.
Anyone else?
Thanks, Wet.
I try not to use the same argument when she says it. I did way in the beginning.
It's hard to say it when her feeling of love is more of a friend type instead of a romantic/erotic/committed/marriage type that I still feel.
I think the "Thank you" might be interpreted as passive aggressive if I know her like I know her. She's a very sarcastic, truthful, in-your-face, blunt personality and that might push her buttons. I could be wrong though...maybe I'll try it.
Thank you again for the input. It's much appreciated.
Peace!
Hi Ikymk99,
Weekends are tough for those of us who are separated. What is your game plan to keep you occupied, and your mind off of W tonight and the rest of the weekend?
Are you reading any books that are helping you?
And what do your initials stand for anyway?
Hi Ikymk99
Just a quick one. Sorry I haven't read your thread just yet, but to try and stop the panicky feeling, take short in breaths and long out breaths.
Do you know about mindfulness? Check that out. When you're feeling panicky and your mind is racing, really concentrate on those breaths. Your brain can't think of two things at once.
Old Dog xx
Hi Ikymk99,
I'm checking in. How are you doing?
Wet: Thank you very much for your concern. It means a great deal to me. Things are kind of stable. I still have limited contact w/ W. We talk every evening on the phone. These conversions are typically the same: "Hi, how are you? How was your day?" etc. Couple nights ago I could tell by her voice she was having a difficult day. She said the reason was her grandfather being hospitalized. Which, of course, is understandable. Then, last evening, she stated that she was still having a hard time. When I asked what was bothering her she just replied, "It is what it is." I know she's hurting, confused, and missing us. But she is the type of person once she makes a plan or makes a decision, she'll see it through and RARELY reverse her plan of action. I try not to express my desperation or hurt feelings. But it is hard to conceal when she knows how to read me more than anyone else (myself included). She believes all of this is "for the best" and "it's unfair to me to keep me in on the limbo roller coaster".
I, of course, disagree, but try not to tell her different. It's so hard to hear her end each contact with the words "I love you." (the night she was having a bad day she said "I love you VERY much.". Such a mind/heart-f***k!
I am trying to detach. Especially when she still says that she "loves" me. One of the hardest things I've ever tried. She's my best friend, my soul mate. It's hard to accept that's she's leaving.
Thank you, Wet, for checking in on me. I don't have many friends (my fault, I know, but I'm a "loner type") to lean on. It means a great deal to me to know someone out there understands and is concerned for me.
Old Dog: Yes, I have read and listened to a vast amount about mindfullness and meditation since we started having issues. It has helped, but staying consistent with the practice is my flaw. I need to set aside more time to do it and keep on it. Thank you for the suggestion.
Peace and may our sitches make us better people.
Ikym99
Hi. Sorry to read your sitch and just chiming in with a small bit of advice re getting panicky. Try to concentrate on your surroundings with sight, sound and feel for ten minutes each. I go out to the garden and just lspend the time BEING not thinking. If it works you can extend the time Again sorry to read your sitch. Take care. Rd
Hi Ikymk99,
Is your W close to her grandfather?
It is interesting that your W continues to tell you that she loves you. Why do you think she is re-assuring you with this statement of her feelings?
I think I understand how you are feeling - hopeless, out of control, and sad, am I close to getting it? Do you have any plans for the weekend that will get your focus back on "YOU"? Take care of yourself, do something you enjoy. Please keep checking back in.
Wet, thanks again for the concern. It really does mean a lot to me. Like I said, I don't have many friends or relatives that truly understand what I'm going tthrough. They listen and care, are supportive, but I feel they just feel sorry for me.
She is extremely close to her grandparents. They helped raise her (her mother was young and divorced) and her older sister.
I talked to my MIL yesterday. I love her very much. My own mother was/ is a difficult person to engage with, too self absorbed. My mil has dealt with many similar circumstances with my W's father. MIL knows W as do do. She's e's just as shocked by W's behaviors.
I was/ am in a bad place this whole time.
Some days I feel I can make it. But they are few and far between. I miss my family in its whole state terribly.
She keeps saying she still wants to be friends and have family days, but it's not a family anymore IMO. I'm tempted to cut all contact with W. It hurts too much when I see her. She wants her cake, but I feel, if she's giving up on M, she can't have everything her way.
Thanks again.
Peace
Hi Ikymk99,
A couple of points. What have you changed about yourself since you joined the board in September?
Your W asked you to get out more, and essentially GAL, just like DR preaches. How are you doing with this?
It seems like many of us here, you are consumed with your W and your sitch. The ONLY way to deal with this is to detach more. Perhaps going a bit darker is something to try. One suggestion, your W wants to separate and be on her own, right? Give her a taste of what this looks like - for example, have your s12 answer the nightly phone calls from your W, rather than you. If you stop talking to her on the phone, it should also help with the detaching.
Hang in there, as you know if you DB it will take time. And work on yourself during this time.
"What have you changed about yourself since you joined the board in September?"
Well, honestly, not much. I really have no excuse.
A ton of research and self-reflection. Dabbled in the night life a little, but that's not my cup of tea. Try to meditate, but keeping consistent at it is not my strong suit. Trying to learn guitar. And have been sending out resumes to better my financial sitch.
I've been having a real hard time dealing with all this. I try not to let it show, especially in front of my S's. Paralysis from overwhelming emotions are my enemy. Detachment has been really the hardest. She was/is my "other half" and the anxiety and pain from losing that other half of my life is crippling. Having two awesome children together doesn't help either.
I know I dwell on my sitch and W WAAAAYY too much. But it's my life. What I have worked for for so long. What I cherish the most above all else, my family. Nothing is more important to me. And having it crumble before me makes me angry, ashamed, depressed, and lost.
I think "going dark" is my only option at this time. If not for the hope of it maybe salvaging my M, but for my own mental and emotional well being more importantly. It's just going to be difficult with children and us calling each evening. My fear is she'll mistake my "going dark" behavior as bitterness and/or hate for her and she'll actually go through with filing for D. She's a very determined and grudge-holding person and will cut ties officially I'm afraid.
Patience and prayer. That's all I can do.
Thank you, Wet, your ear and advice are not taken for granted.
"Well, honestly, not much. I really have no excuse. "
"I know I dwell on my sitch and W WAAAAYY too much. But it's my life."
That's why nothing has changed in your sitch. If you don't get yourself strong, you can't make your relationship strong.
MrBond,
You're so right. I do need to get myself strong. Quit having this victim mentality. I'm only spinning my wheels with all this "woe is me" self talk and it's accomplishing nothing but more heartache. Plus, it's very unattractive, I know.
Thank you all for your honesty and concern. This board has kept my head above water more than you know with all the fellow DB'ers dropping knowledge and understanding.
Had a decent day yesterday. I was focused and motivated to do some work on myself. Stayed busy and didn't dwell too much on the negative. Spent time with my boys. Played video games with them and had a good time.
Then W calls during our gaming session. Mentions she'd like to come out tomorrow night to see the boys (I'm taking them to my dad's for Thanksgiving) since she won't be seeing them for a while. I said that was fine. Then she talked to the boys.
This morning, during my meditation, she calls and asks if I'd be willing to switch nights and I go to my buddy's where I spend my time away. I paused and she said, "You're hesitating. That's ok, I'll just come by tonight and visit.". I said that's fine.
This convo has put a damper on my day. I've fallen into the pain again. I realize this will be the first holiday in 16 years that we won't all be together as a family.
Hi Ikymk99,
Good job with enjoying your time with the boys. What video games do you guys enjoy playing? My s13 is a Madden football game freak.
Holidays are tough for everyone. Try and not hover around your W when she comes to visit the boys. The "triggers" of pain come fast and furious during this time of year. The "first" Thanksgiving apart. The "first" Christmas apart, etc.
What do you think will help you to quickly deal with the pain when a "trigger" comes at you? It's a tough time and you are doing some good work on yourself in analyzing the situation, and trying to understand what is taking place. Good luck with tonight.
Hi Ikymk99,
I am writing to see how you are doing through the Thanksgiving Day weekend. I hope that you and your boys are well.
Thanks, Wet.
The weekend was very hard. I tried to maintain a sense of composure. I was hurting really bad. Went to my father's, had a okay time. So surreal though, being the first major holiday w/o my W.
W stayed at our house (allegedly) and didn't even go to her family's Thanksgiving, which wasn't too far at all from where we live. She said she stayed at home and "listened to music"(which was accompanied with alcohol I assume).
Friday we came home and I busied myself with chores and had little contact. I went to my home away from home later.
Friday night my buddy and I went to a bar to watch a show. I wasn't feeling too well by the end of the night. Went to my car and went to sleep. He came out later and we got a ride with a sober person.
Saturday I was still feeling low. Arrived at my house to take my turn with the boys. She was all dolled up, ready for her weekly outing to the bars. This is the most hurtful time of the week for me. Seeing her all prettied up. Not being allowed to say anything or touch her. I just wish her a good time and tell her to be safe. It's late in the evening when my imagination starts torturing me. That voice keeps saying, "You know she getting a lot of attention from strange men. You know she's vulnerable and probably drunk and lonely and her judgement will be lacks." The thought of another man giving her attention and her eating it up kills me. I know it's not healthy and I can do nothing to stop it. I know it's something I would never do. I try to tell myself that she's not the same person and all that...but it is still hurts. Just when I think I'm okay, I've detached, I'm getting better, seeing her and knowing where she's going puts me back at square one.
I'm sorry Ikymk99, I hear the pain in your words. You need help. Do you have any ideas of any support groups or just any groups that you can meet up with that will help get you through this?
I attend a weekly Divorce Care group that meets at my Church. It's helped me. It's a national organization, and it helps both divorced and separated people. It may be worth checking to see if there is one in your area.
You must know some people who have gone through the divorce process. Ask them what helped get them through this painful process. Just hang in there, and keep going back over the DR book, and posts here from the veterans. I'll say it again, I'm sorry. It will get better, if you let it.
Hi Ikymk99,
Don't leave us hanging. How are you doing?
Hi Wet,
Thank you for your concern. It means a lot to me.
I've been in a haze of pain and frustration over the past few weeks. This overwhelming pain in my chest is constant. I haven't been sleeping well at all. I've been crying or on the verge everyday.
My W has officially moved out of our house. She called me a couple of weeks ago to tell me that she had found a place and that I could come home permanently.
Last week, all her stuff she had been storing at the house was gone when I got home from work. It's so strange. Seeing my house so bare. All remnants of her...gone.
The nights I'm alone there are excruciating. Totally alone, both physically and emotionally.
I'm trying so hard to detach and move on. But I can't seem to focus too long on anything other than my W and my family being destroyed.
I wish I could snap out of this and move on with my life. I really do.
I know I need to be strong. For me and my boys.
I know I probably need professional counseling or something. I really do not have the financial means or the time right now.
I start a new job on Wednesday. Hopefully that will keep my mind occupied...
Thanks for checking in and giving us an update. Congratulations on the new job.
It's also good news that you no longer have to go back and forth to your friend's place, right?
Do you love your W enough to let her go?
Hi Ikymk99,
How are you doing?
Hi Ikymk99, are you still around?