Part 1 Part 2 Part 3My W and OM have given each other until year's end to make a decision (to continue the A or not).
The OM leaves to start his new job in two days (2K miles away). The initial plan is (according to my W and the OMW) is that he'll be flying back every two weeks.
My W will be flying out to see an old friend (not a close friend) from her previous job. She hasn't seen him in 10 years. She will be away for a week to reflect and to seek counseling/guidance from him. He and his W divorced years ago after he found his W in an A w/another man. My W said that she wants to talk to someone who is unbiased, and wants to hear things from a male PoV. So far, the three people she confided in (her two close friends and a cousin) are biased towards her. She recognizes that. These were her words.
I will also be starting a new job next week.
We also plan on going on a week-long family vacation in November.
Lots of potential game-changing events are ahead. The future is uncertain, but I have optimism and hope.
Over the weekend, we had some further R talks.
Saturday night:
She is disappointed that I think the worst of her. She is upset that I think she is calculated, controlling, and manipulative. I told her that I fear for the future and I fear that she and the OM have this whole thing planned out (getting both spouses to lay down quietly while both family units are systematically deconstructed).
Her response was that neither she nor the OM have anything planned and that she really doesn't know what the future holds herself. She said "I don't know what end of year looks like. I don't know what next week looks like!"
I sense that beneath her tough exterior is a lot of confusion and pain. She has always had a hard time showing her soft side to me. She always had this "I don't need anybody" attitude, and it still resonates in the things she says and does.
I continued...I told her that from my PoV, I'm working on becoming a better man, father, and husband. I told her that I'm going to continue treating her like any W deserves to be treated.
She asked, "And how is that?"
I said, "To be treated as an equal partner in life".
She nodded.
I then said, "What I know about you is what I've known since I met you -- that beneath your tough exterior is a very soft side. It's that soft side of you right now that is hurting and in pain. I recognize that I caused you so much pain, but I have found it in my heart to forgive myself for the things I've done to you. It doesn't mean that I'm letting myself off the hook for my past wrong-doings. It means I've let go of the self-loathing that was eating my soul so that I can continue living my life."
We then got into a conversation regarding the OM/OMW relationship. She doesn't believe anything the OMW says, and said she was there in the presence of the OM when he had some of the conversations that corroborate his side of the story, and negates hers. Because of that, everything she has said to my W is under scrutiny and doubt.
She said that she understands why I feel the need to try to help save their marriage, and it's that kind-heartedness that she fell in love with 19 years ago. It's also why it was incomprehensible to her how someone so kind-hearted as myself could betray her like that.
I told her that my past indiscretions were a result of voids in our marriage that I filled through infidelity and betrayal. I said that I am in no way excusing anything that I did, and infidelity is never an excuse.
I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage.
She replied, "That's because you didn't have the balls to. You were a coward."
I retorted, "So what does that make [OM]? A hero? A hero for leaving his wife and kids?"
I told her that this conversation is no longer in our best interests to continue.
She said that she will be spending the night with the OM and that tomorrow (Sunday), she'll be spending half the day with her parents because she feels that she needs to seek counseling from them.
I don't know I would have turned it back on OM like that. You attacking him only makes her defend him, which pushes her into the "you against me" thing you want to avoid.
Next time she baits you like that, retort with something like, "I it takes balls not to give up when things get hard. I'm committed to this marriage and our family.
That's good advice TSC. I'm actually debating whether I should send an e-mail to her now saying just that.
I'd leave it alone. Just keep it in the back of your head for next time the conversation turns like that.
Sunday conversations
She had a talk with her parents in the morning. She came home in the early afternoon seemingly in a good mood. She showed me three dress shirts that she had bought for me (to wear for my new job) and I thanked her for her thoughtfulness and gave her a kiss on the cheek. She was receptive.
The rest of the day was pretty normal and we were both cordial to each other. After dinner, she talked about opening a savings account for our children and said that there were some special offers she saw for opening new accounts. She then mentioned that ahead of starting her new job, she's going to be opening a new checking account like we discussed (this was 2 months ago, and only mentioned once since. It was noted in the controlled separation agreement -- the one she has yet to type up, print out, and get notarized like she said she would).
I said, "You can if you want to, but I'm not."
She asked "Why?"
I replied, "Whatever I make will go into our family account."
By telling her this, I was hoping to make it clear that I have no intention of taking ANY action to dissolve this marriage, and that I am offering FULL transparency on my spending (no more hiding money from her).
"I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage."
Shouldn't have said this.
Over the weekend, we had some further R talks.
Saturday night:
She is disappointed that I think the worst of her. She is upset that I think she is calculated, controlling, and manipulative.
And so, when/why did you tell her those^^ things?
I told her that I fear for the future and I fear that she and the OM have this whole thing planned out (getting both spouses to lay down quietly while both family units are systematically deconstructed).
Just curious..."lay down quietly" means what? And, as opposed to what? Burning all the bridges they can?
Her response was that neither she nor the OM have anything planned and that she really doesn't know what the future holds herself. She said "I don't know what end of year looks like. I don't know what next week looks like!"
I sense that beneath her tough exterior is a lot of confusion and pain. She has always had a hard time showing her soft side to me. She always had this "I don't need anybody" attitude, and it still resonates in the things she says and does.
I would think that^^ is a defense mechanism to protect her from further pain from your infidelities and lost jobs and financial fears...the less vulnerability she shows, the less hurt she'll feel if things fall thru for her again.
I continued..
WHY?? You JUST finished saying you have to work on STFU and then a day or 2 later you do this again....showing the same old probing pressuring side of yourself. And a lack of self control which would be such a 180 for you.
.I told her that from my PoV, I'm working on becoming a better man, father, and husband. I told her that I'm going to continue treating her like any W deserves to be treated.
She asked, "And how is that?"
I said, "To be treated as an equal partner in life".
She nodded.
I then said, "What I know about you is what I've known since I met you -- that beneath your tough exterior is a very soft side. It's that soft side of you right now that is hurting and in pain.
^^^this is you telling her how she feels. Instead, you could ask her, then STFU and listen.
I recognize that I caused you so much pain, but I have found it in my heart to forgive myself for the things I've done to you. It doesn't mean that I'm letting myself off the hook for my past wrong-doings. It means I've let go of the self-loathing that was eating my soul so that I can continue living my life."
This seems mighty convenient & self serving. Also, I see NO reason for you to have shared this with her. The only possible thing that she might need to hear is that you are sorry for all the pain You caused her. Then stop.
We then got into a conversation regarding the OM/OMW relationship.
Neither of you have any business discussing their m. Imagine THEM talking to each other about Your marriage. How does that make you feel?
What would you think of their opinions of you and or your wife, and how you two get along? How much value would you give their opinions?
She doesn't believe anything the OMW says, and said she was there in the presence of the OM when he had some of the conversations that corroborate his side of the story, and negates hers. Because of that, everything she has said to my W is under scrutiny and doubt.
Not of interest to either of you, and not relevant to your life or your plans.
She said that she understands why I feel the need to try to help save their marriage, and it's that kind-heartedness that she fell in love with 19 years ago.
I think it's only b/c it serves Your interest to have their marriage work out. Plain & simple.
It's also why it was incomprehensible to her how someone so kind-hearted as myself could betray her like that.
I told her that my past indiscretions were a result of voids in our marriage that I filled through infidelity and betrayal. I said that I am in no way excusing anything that I did, and infidelity is never an excuse.
THIS ^^ is false. IMO, You ARE indeed excusing and explaining your behavior instead of simply saying you behaved deplorably and selfishly.
You STILL make it about the marriage. AND YET you want her to stop her A, as if it has nothing to do with the marital dissatisfaction she feels. With HER, it's just wrong to have an A, but with your past multiple affairs, it was all b/c of "voids IN the marriage".
Ever think she feels those voids still exist and that you cannot fill them and therefore she's still totally justified in her A?? That is how I'd see your comments if I were her.
Man, you really have got to learn to STFU
I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage.
I think this is the oddest most self serving comment you have made yet. And I'd never make it again if I were you.
You are NOT morally superior, OR "loyal" to your wife when you screw other women, repeatedly AND use marital assets to pay for it.
How you can describe that as "LOYAL", even now, is a real stunner for me. And the fact that you did not want to marry the OWs (just sleep with them) says nothing good or loyal about you. Stop mentioning it.
Besides, I doubt the escorts were looking for marriage.
Mindsink, You are still blind. I really don't think I am helping you much.
She replied, "That's because you didn't have the balls to. You were a coward."
I retorted, "So what does that make [OM]? A hero? A hero for leaving his wife and kids?"
I told her that this conversation is no longer in our best interests to continue.
NONE OF IT EVER WAS.
She said that she will be spending the night with the OM and that tomorrow (Sunday), she'll be spending half the day with her parents because she feels that she needs to seek counseling from them.
It was Friday night (our wedding anniversary night) when I first told her that I feared for my future and feared that she may be controlling me.
A couple of months ago, when I 1st contacted the OMW, she said to me, "We had her under control until you set her off".
I recalled this statement to her and said, "Think about what you said. 'You had her under control'. How do I know you're not trying to keep me under control?"
This is when she walked away, saying "After 19 years, this is what you think of me. Calculated and controlling."
(You may have read that before -- I posted it days ago and it got deleted ^^^)
Anyway -- I recognize that much of what I said that night was regrettable. I believe she understands that even through her own pain and fears, she recognizes that her H is also hurting badly. She also acknowledges that sometimes I say things abruptly when I am emotionally charged. Again -- not in my best interest. There's no way that she thinks otherwise, and it doesn't help my cause to SHOW I'm in pain. I get that.
The whole loyalty spiel that I tried to pull off was constructed in my mind on the fly. It absolutely was self-serving. She knows the moral and ethical conflicts in this situation and doesn't need me to tell her or reinforce/validate them -- particularly when they come off as hypocritical.
I was admittedly in a very unstable emotional state late last week because of the fact that she spent the night on her birthday and our wedding anniversary with the OM (within a 3-day span). It was simply too much for me to take, as hard as I tried to keep my composure. I regressed, and didn't handle the situation well. It was magnified by the additional stress that came with the new found focus I had on the OMW and their situation as a result of our conversations during this same time. Another backslide.
With that said, I am not down on myself. I need to refocus on the big picture here (and maybe reread DR again).
Another positive takeaway is that while I may have regressed by the WORDS that were spoken, I have not regressed by my ACTIONS, and it will only be my consistent actions that will make her even entertain the thought that a marriage with me can be different and better than it was before.
Backward steps have been taken. Time to shake it off and move forward.
More information from FIL
My FIL sat me down for another conversation last night. He went over some details of his conversation with my W.
He noted to her that the OM has been dragging his feet with regard to divorcing his W. In the beginning, he wanted to file, and was pushing my W to tell me about the situation so they could move forward. He told her that he cannot proceed with divorce as long as she is married/committed to me. It took my W nearly two months from the start of the A to tell me.
The OM never came through on his end. He and his W are still married, and the controlled separation agreement they drew up was never signed. Now, news of the OMW's father's ailing health is preventing him from moving forward.
My FIL says that my W indicated that she is getting impatient. He told her that if [OM] is 100% committed to you, he would have divorced his W months ago. The fact that he still hasn't indicates that he is on the fence. My W seemed to agree. According to what my W told my FIL, the OM told my W, "If you want to break up with me, I will understand, and I will go without a fight."
A side note - The OMW told me that they spoke about breaking up (about 1 week ago), and this confirms it.
They have decided to give this two months to gather their thoughts and make a choice on what path they will eventually choose -- to move forward with the R, taking steps to dissolve their marriages; or to end the A.
He also said that my W has noted to him that I have changed in a positive way. He advised that whatever I'm doing, keep doing, and eventually she will believe that I have changed for good. Right now, she has doubt.
I need to re-read DR, re-read all of my previous threads. I need to keep my focus on the methods and approaches I have learned through the book, on this forum, and from my DB coach. I cannot afford another moment of relapse like I did last weekend.
I have another DB coaching session this afternoon. I can start to see the signs of things turning around and I am very hopeful. At the same time, I have to let go of expectations, and really start to engage in some new GAL activities.
You're doing great mindsin, and you are so lucky to have a FIL who will share this information with you, so you can know that your efforts are working!
DB Coaching session #7
I brought my DB coach up to speed on the latest developments. While she feels that the past weekend's talks worked against me, she thinks I may have come out of those talks mostly unscathed, evidence by her behavior on Sunday. How much that behavior was a result of her conversation with her parents is unknown, but it's a positive sign.
She agrees that I need to revisit the fundamentals of DB-ing. Recognize and note all of the mistakes I have made -- particularly in the last couple of weeks -- the pursuing, the pressure. It needs to stop.
She thinks the talk I had with the OMW last week and the revelation of the conversation (and the OMW's claims) put doubt into my W and may have caused her (even slightly) to re-evaluate her relationship with OM. I need to be aware that she will never express this doubt to me. But the doubt is evidenced by her desire to fly away to see a friend for a week by herself, and her need to seek counseling from her parents.
Continue to listen to her. Eliminate the confrontational communication (stop trying to drive my point home). Keep up PMA and 180s.
She is also very encouraged by the turn of events in the A -- the OM's impending relocation, the break-up talks, all the uncertainty, and the lack of any forward movement regarding separation or D from BOTH marital situations.
DB Coaching session #7
I brought my DB coach up to speed on the latest developments. While she feels that the past weekend's talks worked against me, she thinks I may have come out of those talks mostly unscathed, evidence by her behavior on Sunday. How much that behavior was a result of her conversation with her parents is unknown, but it's a positive sign.
Don't confuse a potential positive sign with thinking it was not a mistake to have the R talks, again...And stop having them! Yikes, I don't know what else to say. IT's as if you think merely surviving those talks is enough to keep having them but I thnk it's only a matter of time before your wife has heard too much...
Listen to the coach (and us) and stfu PLEASE...it will show some self control and that's one thing she fears you lack, b/c of the job losses and the affairs.
Show her you CAN be disciplined....make sense?
She agrees that I need to revisit the fundamentals of DB-ing. Recognize and note all of the mistakes I have made -- particularly in the last couple of weeks -- the pursuing, the pressure. It needs to stop.
this^^ is Emphatically TRUE....can I get an "amen"? AMEN!!
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She thinks the talk I had with the OMW last week and the revelation of the conversation (and the OMW's claims) put doubt into my W and may have caused her (even slightly) to re-evaluate her relationship with OM.
Even if that is true, it also COST you a lot. Makes you look insecure, gossipy, weak, possibly distrustful. And whatever information that hurts OM and her r with him needs to come from someone OTHER than you. Don't be the messenger. There are plenty of other ways she can figure this out, she does NOT need you standing over her shoulder saying "I told you so" which I would-bet she fears and expects from you.
Know this, sometimes the most loving LOYAL thing to say to a spouse is NOTHING.
When Alaska and my h's dreams of the "Gold Rush Sure to give us a gazillion dollars" all fell flat, I never once said "I told you so."
When His contract with the hospital (which was one I'd never advise signing but h said I was being "negative" and "raining on his parade" and that I was "biased") fell apart and worse than I predicted came about, I said nothing.
We got financially very damaged by his unilateral choice.
I said nothing b/c HE KNEW IT already and why would I need to remind him of that? I don't believe that we "educate by humiliate" so I never did.
Keep that in mind b/c her FEARS of your inability to forgive, may haunt you and being so "talkative" probably makes her think you cannot let something go.
If she thinks you'll always bring up the A, or throw it in her face every time you guys disagree or fight, it'll be a real obstacle to reconciliation. So seriously review and remind yourself of the positives of NOT talking about the R so much.
I need to be aware that she will never express this doubt to me. But the doubt is evidenced by her desire to fly away to see a friend for a week by herself, and her need to seek counseling from her parents.
Okay fair enough. So back off and trust this process. Trust that the love she once had for you CAN resurface if you let it, which means stop pushing for it so muh...okay?
Continue to listen to her. Eliminate the confrontational communication (stop trying to drive my point home). Keep up PMA and 180s.
Yes, yes.
She is also very encouraged by the turn of events in the A -- the OM's impending relocation, the break-up talks, all the uncertainty, and the lack of any forward movement regarding separation or D from BOTH marital situations.
You mean the DB coach, right? Just checking.
25 - On your last question: Yes, I mean the DB coach.
New 180 for me (just realized)
So my W will be going on her week long trip this Friday. She has been asking me (for days) to convert the videos from some exercise DVDs onto her iPad so she can use them while she's away.
Yesterday evening, she "blew up" at me for not getting to it yet.
My replies were defensive. "You're not leaving tomorrow. I'll get them done."
This morning, I started converting the 1st disc. She comes up behind me and abruptly says, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I'm doing my exercises this morning. Why can't you use the other PC?!"
She needed me to stop what I was doing so she could play her exercise DVD and do her workout. I told her that this PC is the one where the video conversion software is installed and registered.
I stopped, and let her do her workout.
Then it dawned on me...
There have been countless times in the past where she asked me to do something (a favor for her, for her parents, etc.) that required my knowledge or ability. For example, she trusts me with everything technology-related and leaves it up to me to take care of these things.
In the past, I have shown a lack of care for getting these things done. This latest thing is just "more of the same" from me.
And I also realize that she not only wants me to get them done, she wants me to TAKE CHARGE of these things so she feels like she's taken care of. By her persisting and pressuring me to get these videos converted to her iPad, it shows that she doesn't TRUST me to get it done.
She has even said these following things to me on several occasions after BD:
"[OM] knows how to take care of me."
"You can't take care of me."
"You need to find a woman that you can take care of."
It took me long enough, but I'm finally starting to connect the dots here. What I am uncertain of is whether she is trying to say I don't have the ability to, or I don't have the desire to take care of her.
Is she saying that you do not understand how to take care of her? Maybe she means you dont "get" her and OM does.
I say let OM take care of her, he will get tired of it real quick.
I say let OM take care of her, he will get tired of it real quick.
I'm hoping he's already starting to. My W has told me recently that they (she and the OM) fight a lot, sometimes about me, and that she has defended me on more than one occasion.
Specifically, she has argued with him about how much better I'm handling this difficult situation than his W is.
(That's because she's not DB-ing!!!)
Also, if you're madly "in love" with a woman, you wouldn't be moving 2000 miles away to start a new job with no guarantee that she will follow you there. I know I wouldn't.
Is she saying that you do not understand how to take care of her? Maybe she means you dont "get" her and OM does.
I say let OM take care of her, he will get tired of it real quick.
Except that Mindsink is DBing, he has a coach, & he's taking a DB approach. He's not trying to "teach his wife a lesson"...and btw, Bdub, have you read the DB books? I don't get the feeling you have. No offense.
Mindsink, whether she believes you cannot OR will not do this, to ME is not as important as you just handling it and proving --both that you DO care, and that you CAN do it. Problem solved.
I mean, that way you solve it regardless.
If this is one of her love languages (acts of service) I would get on it fast.
(Isn't it one of her LLs?)
And like you said, you reacted defensively in the moment (another reason for you to learn new positives ways of handling things)
In the heat of the moment, we don't want you to revert to defensive or attacking behaviors, right?
So you really need some positive role models. That means getting to know people who KNOW HOW to do conflict resolution, and don't "Lose it" a lot. Learn from them, and model their behavior.
Also, in the future, maybe you can communicate more directly. This could be a teachable moment instead of a 'problem." For instance,
"W, no need to be upset, I didn't realize it was so time sensitive. I planned on doing it "later/ "during X'/ ETC) but I can do it now. Will that work for you?"
[/i]
This a chance for you to show that you are doing her a favor on HER timeline, correct? If you choose to do that, I think it'll be noted, and if you choose not to, the same thing will happen.
AND Mindsink, if it's done for her but done "too late" then she's probably not counting it at all),
As for what is going on with the OM, or how tech savvy he is,
who cares?this is about YOUR LIFE, not his.
How about a post that has NO mention of him or his wife, and only speaks of your growth and healing, or a new GAL or some other 180s?I'm Looking forward to that!
If this is one of her love languages (acts of service) I would get on it fast.
(Isn't it one of her LLs?)
Yes it is. There are a few more examples of this (post BD), and in those examples, I stepped up to the plate and delivered.
Some of those things have been lingering for at least a year, and they were things that I saw as simply "nagging". That must have emptied her love tank quickly.
As for what is going on with the OM, or how tech savvy he is, who cares?
this is about YOUR LIFE, not his.
I know, I know. I just can't help but to compare myself to him. I feel like it's a "win" whenever I can one-up him. I use it as motivation to better myself in both the areas where he currently has the edge, and areas where I outshine him. For example, I know that he has been letting his health/fitness slide. I am more physically fit than he is, so one of the GAL that I'm doing is to get into the gym regularly and eat clean. I have lost 15 lbs since BD and look/feel better physically than I ever have.
I have a feeling that you're going to say that I'm taking the wrong approach on this -- that I need to make these changes for me, and not to get my W back. Fundamentally, I would agree with you. However, in my mind, I'm doing both, if that makes sense. Even if I'm forcing myself to be better for the wrong reasons, the fact remains that I'm bettering myself. I'm faking it until I become it!
How about a post that has NO mention of him or his wife, and only speaks of your growth and healing, or a new GAL or some other 180s?
I'm Looking forward to that!
*sigh*... Me too. Me too.
Last night, my W came home in a VERY good mood. It was the best I've seen from her in a long time.
She just spent the afternoon and evening with my son and was simply glowing over the wonderful time she just spent. She even noted that she put her mobile phone aside and gave him FULL attention (this was something I was critical of in the past).
She then told me that she is actually leaving on Thursday (not Friday) and that she will be first going on a road trip with two of her friends (one of which knows the situation). I asked her where she's going.
She smiled, and said, "I can't tell you."
Now, she didn't say this like: "It's none of your damn business".
She said it like: "I can't tell you. It's a surprise!"
It's almost as if she was responding to me asking her "What did you get me for my birthday?"
It was a strange and unexpected response.
She then told me she will be flying out to see her friend (which she told me days before) and returning the following week. She asked if I could pick her up at the airport, and suggested that we could go out for dinner afterwards.
This morning, she left with our kids. She is taking them out to breakfast, and then her father will be dropping her off at her friend's house to begin their road trip.
I did not say goodbye to her. Instead, as she was leaving, she said, "OK honey, I'm leaving", as if to make me aware that she's leaving and I won't be seeing her in a week. I walked over to the door as she entered her car, and said "Have a fun and safe trip."
I'm proud of myself. I didn't initiate any text messages or phone calls to yesterday despite the fact that I had no idea where she was going (she wouldn't tell me -- see previous post). Inside, I was very anxious. I know she told her father. If I asked him, he would have told me. I respected her wish to not have me know, so I didn't ask him. But I was still very curious as to WHY she doesn't want me to know.
In the evening, she reached out to me via text.
W: "Are you taking the kids out to dinner"?
Me: "Yes. We are all out having dinner. My parents and my brother came down too."
W: "OK. I will talk to the kids tomorrow. I don't feel like talking to them while your family is there."
Me: "OK"
3.5 hours later, she sends me another text.
W: "I hope our son had a good birthday today. He was really happy with our breakfast date. I am doing well, really relaxing. I will text you tomorrow."
Me: "He had a great birthday and loves the new bike."
Me: "Take care of yourself and stay safe."
New PhoneSo I've been shopping for a new phone/plan, as required for my new job (they reimburse).
Since
this incident, my W has expressed her desire to change the existing family phone plan to her name (because her parents' two phone lines are on it and she wanted to take ownership, since we're "separated" now).
I told her that I wanted to get my new line added to our existing family plan. She asked why I don't just open up my own new plan. I said, I could but there's no sense in me paying an extra $80/month. She replied, OK that's fine.
Later, I e-mailed her that I purchased a new phone and I told her the changes in the plan as a result of it. It's a shared data plan.
She simply replied, I'm not sure 4GB is enough, but we can always add more.
So she's never brought up the plan ownership change again, and it looks like she has allowed me back into her (still mine) wireless family plan. I'll take any positive sign at this point, even as small as this.
Hi. Just read through your posts and I can see your progression over the pages of posts You sitch is very hard knowing about the om and I feel your pain. I hope you continue to grow and you end up where you want to be.
Adding back some deleted postsThis was from 9/19:
You both have been very wounded in this marriage and that's a shame. It's great that she now doesn't regret it all, b/c of the kids and I think that is healthy. I hope the kids will always know that they were the reason she hung in there so long, and the reason you are trying now to keep it together. (IOW, They are NOT factors in the marital problems)
I think you have to stop the pursuit but I also don't think you will take that advice. so it's more damage control than a real strategy now.
Just try to show her she can relax around you and you do that most by NOT having any expectations of her, at all. Just enjoy the evening together. It's okay to discuss the kids (being the best father you can be to them is a HUGE factor in your favor so don't skimp on that!)
but make sure you also connect on other levels. Ask her questions about her dreams and ideal career goals and anything OTHER THAN OM or his poor wife...
Clearly, your w wants an equal partner in the financial responsibilities area, so I'd project the attitude of a man who :IS more career oriented than she sees you as being. Admit your priorities needed changing and HAVE BEEN CHANGED and you look forward to the advancement possibilities you see at the new job (and remind her that you DO Value her input and insights and will probably discuss those things with her in the future as it benefits your chidden and each other...and leave out talk about the future. Read those newbie "Rules" again if you must.
Compliment her authentically and specifically BUT then move on in the conversation , don't act as if you are waiting for her reaction/gratitude etc. Again, no expectations. Just a fun easy going night at home. The more relaxed around you she can be, the easier it'll be to spend time together and maybe build on that.
It seems to me that career ambitions are one of the attractions she feels toward OM. (What do you think she meant when she said you and OM's wife are alike?)
And though you put her thru hell awhile back, ( & more than once), at some point you will need to be LESS available as her back up plan.
Ask your DB coach for more advice about that^^^ and her "Long term plans"...
AND please take the advice given to you by the DB coach, or at least don't blame the DB approach for not working - when you are not working the DB program.
The program can work IF you work the program. Make sense?
Good luck.
Another deleted post from 9/19I don't know what others say, but her asking you to dinner is nice
but he pursued her way too much, esp after she reminded him that even without the OM in the picture, she is NOT coming back to him. She sounded resolute in her emails and the more he asks her details and plans, the more she cements them in her mind/heart.
That is ANOTHER reason for you, Mindskins, to back the heck OFF and stop being so clingy and needy for reassurance at a time when she's in NO MOOD to reassure you of her devotion at all.
SHE IS DONE (or she thinks she is) so stop solidifying that in her by asking her how she feels....way way too soon.
You need a year of new changed behavior before she'll believe it's real and even then it may not be enough.
Demonstrate how DIFFERENT you are now, not with more of the same.
As for her "invitation" it came off to me as more of a concession than an invite. He practically begged her to throw him a bone.
Just take it easy tonight Mind, please don't let your future or your heart hinge on how the evening goes. IF there are no hurtful words exchanged and a few laughs shared, consider that a victory.
And call your DB coach next time you want to reach out and pursue her again or post here....
GOOD LUCK!
Addressing one of 25's questions from 9/19
25 -- Regarding how the OMW and I are alike. My W said that we're both very emotional people and at times very reactionary. She said that the difference with me is that I am very rational and logical (as opposed to the OMW). She also said that I am the type of person with a big heart and wants to help people. She said it's that part of me that she fell in love with, which it was so hard for her to fathom how I could possibly betray her for those 5 years.
Posted after the dinner on 9/19Keep in mind this was from a week ago, so it precedes the posts from page #1 of this thread.
DinnerDinner was very nice. We talked, laughed, joked. It was overall fun. I can tell that she is very stressed out and she asked if it would be OK if she takes a week off to visit a friend (3000 miles away). She said that she just needs to get away from everything before she starts her new job. She said she wants to get away from me, from the kids, and even [OM].
She will be staying with a male friend (they're not close by any means). This male friend went through a D about 10 years ago after he found his W cheating on him.
My W said that she recognizes that her two friends and cousin (all of which whom she revealed the situation to) would be biased towards her. She wants to get a more neutral opinion on the situation from someone who is not a close friend, and she wants to get it from a man's perspective.
After dinner, we went back home. She said she is upset about something and needs to talk. It turns out that she looked through my phone that night and saw some text messages from me to the OMW. The text messages read:
"My W told me that she called you yesterday. She thinks that most of what you told me may have been simply 'wishful thinking'. I was very vulnerable this week due to the two major days and I somewhat regret we had our conversations. I truly hope that things work out for you, but I realize now that our conversations, while helpful in some ways, can also be counter-productive in other ways. It gives us both false hope, and goes against the one thing that we must focus on -- and that is ourselves. Hang in there. I know God has a plan for you to be happy, even if it is unclear right now."My W was upset that I felt the need to tell her about the "wishful thinking" part. She also reiterated to me, that while she recognizes that the OMW was the one who reached out to me, that I did not need to engage her the way I did. She said she would have respected me a lot more if I had simply told her that she had contacted me, and told her that I wanted to engage her, before actually doing so.
The bottom line is that she doesn't feel safe around me and is afraid to tell me anything, because she doesn't trust that I can keep things between us (and especially not shared with the OMW). She said she is tired of the 'behind the back'.
I then tried to open up to her about why I can't fully trust her in this situation. I told her that I am very aware of how smart she is, and how she is such a careful planner, calculating all of her moves, and being 2 or 3 moves ahead of me at all times. It's scary. And because of the situation we're in, I'm scared of what is in store for our future.
I pointed out to her one thing she said to me which frightened me. After the 1st time I contacted the OMW, my W said to me,
"We had her under control until you set her off".
I told her that I was thinking, if you're insinuating that you're controlling her, how do I know you're not controlling me? How do I know your words and actions are genuine, and not just a ploy to keep me calm while you systematically break our family apart?
I said, "I want nothing more than to open myself to you and trust you, but how can I while you're in an A, and have plans to destroy my family (and theirs)?"
She was absolutely speechless. She walked away, and said to me (on her way out),
"After 19 years, that's what you think of me. Cold and calculated."My texted her shortly after she left the house.
Me: [i]"That's what I get for trying to be open and honest about my feelings. Thanks for making me feel comfortable sharing my vulnerable side with you. SMH"
W:
"I am overly disappointed you would think that I am a calculated person when it comes to treating people. This is our fundamental problem. You never trusted the way I perceive people. You would rather think the worst of me, like my dealings with your parents. It brought back bad images. Nothing good will come out of us continuing to talk tonight. I don't want to ruin tomorrow. Let's talk when I am cooled off."It's clear that even though she's in an A, that all she wants from me is honesty and loyalty. And that's all I want to give back to her. But how can I be loyal to someone who is not being loyal to me? I'm so confused.
"It's clear that even though she's in an A, that all she wants from me is honesty and loyalty. And that's all I want to give back to her. "
You shouldn't when it comes to the A. Stop defending her actions. You can validate how and why she got to that point, but don't tell her she's correct in doing the A. AND stop treating the OMW as an enemy. She's a woman just as scared as you are (if not more) who is trying to save her family.
One thing I've always wondered in your posts is that all you talk about is your W. Where are your kids? How are you interacting with them? How are they feeling about all of this?
I don't think I treat the OMW as an enemy, but it seems my W does (naturally). It's so difficult because if I defend the OMW, my W sees it as me showing allegiance to some other woman. My W wants me to put her first. She wants me to show her that I am loyal to her, even during these times. I'm so conflicted when it comes to this.
My kids are very well shielded from this situation. I am spending more time with them now than I have before and I am become a much better father. I never say anything disparaging about my W to them, and I have done more than my share of "covering up" for my W's late night trysts and weekend getaways with the OM. I realize that I should have set that boundary early on and not allow her to simply use me as "free babysitting" while she goes out. I think she would have been put in a much more difficult situation if she was forced to ask her parents to watch the kids while she goes off with the OM.
Thankfully, I believe that this is over (not the A, but the late night trysts, 2 or 3 times per week), since now the OM lives 2000 miles away and at best (according to both my W and the OMW), he will be coming back every two weeks.
My W has no plans to move down there, so I have no idea where their R will end up.
Thankfully, I believe that this is over (not the A, but the late night trysts, 2 or 3 times per week), since now the OM lives 2000 miles away and at best (according to both my W and the OMW), he will be coming back every two weeks.
My W has no plans to move down there, so I have no idea where their R will end up.
So your wife has no plans to move down there?... However this is what you told us in July.... Your wife told you she has every intention of following him. Something isn't making sense here....
A few more pieces of information.
- The OM (co-worker) is her boss. They can both get in serious trouble if this is found out and it could put a black eye on their careers.
- The OM recently received a job offer which will locate him out of state. WAW indicated previously that she has every intention of following him, but only after a year (she would need to get things settled here -- selling the house, etc.). She indicated that it is 99.9% certain that he will accept the job. Shortly, he will be flying down there and they will be physically separated for several months. He will be flying back occasionally only to see my WAW and his kids.
4. Not putting in my fair share into the relationship. She always the giver, I was the taker.
Your wife is a giver, which is more reason to believe she may be willing to follow the OM...
Your wife "says" she is also taking a week off to go on a vacation 3000 miles away.... OM JUST left to start new job, 2000 miles away.... Your wife told you she was leaving Friday and then changed it to Thursday telling you she going with her "GF but wouldn't leave you any details.. ????? Your wife told you she dropped off her car at her Father's and had her father drive her over to her GF's house.... (why did she just not go to GF's house and leave her car there???????)Your wife says she is going 3000 miles away to talk to a male friend and stay with him to figure out some things.... A friend she hasn't seen in???? How many years??? 3000 miles away???
Big red flags here.. You are really being naive.. I would say that your wife and OM have this all planned and that she is meeting him...... 2+2=4......
You aren't seeing what is really going on here are you?
You and the OM's wife are getting played here... Sorry to have to tell you this, but again... 2+2=4....
So I've been nosing through the wireless usage logs again. It started because my W didn't tell me where she was going, and I was simply concerned for her. I wanted to see that she was making calls /texts to verify that she was safe (where she is).
I know that this qualifies as snooping, but this is my wireless plan that she is on, so I feel entitled (right or wrong).
In my "research", I learned that she went on a road trip to a place that is about 14 hours away in the central timezone. Knowing where she went, there is absolutely no reason (that I can think of) that she needed to keep this from me.
I also learned that the last time she spoke with the OM was on 9/24 (nearly 5 days ago). She did text him a couple of times (the last one on 9/27) and it was surprising that it showed up on the usage details. My W has an iPhone and I suspect the OM did too (because those texts never logged in the usage reports). iPhone to iPhone messages go through iMessage. It's encrypted, and is not logged as a text message. Because of this, I never knew when or how often she texted him except for the times I saw her pecking away on the phone to him, or I saw her phone lying around with incoming messages from the OM unanswered.
This new piece of evidence suggests that the OM transferred his existing number to a new phone (that is not an Apple product), and it coincides with him joining this new company and starting his new role.
I hold my W in high regard and as someone of great integrity. It's one thing to stray from your H because you are unhappy in the marriage, or in my case, was betrayed. It's a completely separate thing to engage in a romantic relationship with a married man. I KNOW my W knows how wrong this is, even though she feels "entitled". After all, even if she were a single woman, shacking up with a married man is neither ethical or moral by any standards. She knows this. I think it's her sense of integrity that I'm hoping is finally breaking through the fog.
One thing she said to me 10 days ago is starting to ring in my head.
On one of the recent overnight stays, the OMW called my W and expressed how hurt she was. My W told the OM that he needs to go back home to his W.
I said to her, "Do you see how twisted that sounds? OMW needs YOUR permission for her H to come home to her."
She replied, "Well obviously I need to do that, don't I."
It's as if she has this attitude of "I can please your H like you (OMW) never could."
It's unfathomable to me how she could feel good about stealing another woman's H away from her. Maybe she just came off like that in the heat of conversation, and I never really gave it much thought -- until now. I'm not sure why.
Aside from all this drama, I feel like I've been making great strides in my personal growth and my "DB skills" are improving all the time.
I also feel that I have her parents in my corner, backing me up and giving me advice and keeping me hopeful. They've expressed that they sense their daughter is more confused than ever and she has come to them (especially her father) more and more over the past few weeks than before. Previously, she was avoiding them, and avoiding any talks regarding the OM, or me. Obviously I can't rely on them, but I don't probe them. I stopped doing that a while ago. It is they who come to me and feed me information and give me motivational talks.
I feel like it's only a matter of time before this A fizzles out. It may have fizzled out anyway, but the physical separation just accelerates the process. They will go from seeing each other every day to seeing each other once every two weeks (at most).
So many things are going in my way that I feel that there is an excellent chance that my W will eventually come around. I just need to stay patient and stay the course. This is a marathon, and I should expect setbacks. I have to keep reminding myself that.
"I don't think I treat the OMW as an enemy, but it seems my W does (naturally)."
You DO treat her like the enemy. I"m amazed you can't see it. You defend your W like a mindless sidekick and make the OMW seem like the bad one.
"It's so difficult because if I defend the OMW, my W sees it as me showing allegiance to some other woman."
Who cares?
"My W wants me to put her first. She wants me to show her that I am loyal to her, even during these times. I'm so conflicted when it comes to this."
So you are going to do whatever your W wants you to?
"I wanted to see that she was making calls /texts to verify that she was safe (where she is)."
Total BS. You just wanted to see if she was with the OM. You've said it yourself in the past. Just be honest.
"I said to her, "Do you see how twisted that sounds? OMW needs YOUR permission for her H to come home to her."
She replied, "Well obviously I need to do that, don't I."
It's as if she has this attitude of "I can please your H like you (OMW) never could." "
That was all mindreading on your part. You don't know why she did it. You really haven't learned much about human nature.
JCred,
It's ironic how you keep posting advice to people here, yet you've never posted your story. And you've never talked about your own M. In fact, you called me out, saying I was faking my M being saved. Many have read my story. Where's yours?
You DO treat her like the enemy. I"m amazed you can't see it. You defend your W like a mindless sidekick and make the OMW seem like the bad one.
Maybe you can point out specific things I've wrote that would give you this impression, because I don't see it.
"It's so difficult because if I defend the OMW, my W sees it as me showing allegiance to some other woman."
Who cares?
My W does. Loyalty is a big thing. If I can show her that I am at least making an attempt to be loyal to her in this situation, I think it will only be to my benefit.
So you are going to do whatever your W wants you to?
No. I have my limits and my boundaries. She knows what they are. She's free to do whatever she wants. So am I.
Total BS. You just wanted to see if she was with the OM. You've said it yourself in the past. Just be honest.
Ok, now
you're mind reading.
My initial "peek" was to see if she was ok, and to maybe get a clue as to where she was. It had nothing to do with the OM. There have been no phone calls to/from the OM since last Wednesday, but there have been text messages. On the surface, you could say there were no phone calls because they're together, and that would make sense. However, I am giving my W the benefit of the doubt here when she told me that she is taking this trip by herself to get away from everything and everyone -- including the OM.
That was all mindreading on your part. You don't know why she did it. You really haven't learned much about human nature.
No, it was me reading her face and the tone of her speech. I know plenty about human nature, but thanks for your concern.
"My W does. Loyalty is a big thing. If I can show her that I am at least making an attempt to be loyal to her in this situation, I think it will only be to my benefit."
Again, WHO CARES? More specifically, who cares what your W thinks. She wants you to support her and show loyalty for her A. That's not validation and makes you seem like a cuckold.
"Maybe you can point out specific things I've wrote that would give you this impression, because I don't see it."
I'm not going to go through all of the posts. But I and others have pointed it out to you before. You can look for them so we're not repeating ourselves.
"No. I have my limits and my boundaries. She knows what they are. "
You may think she knows what they are, but she seems to always break them. Like you tell her how you won't support her A, etc. but you watch the kids for her so she can carry it on. Sounds like support to me.
"Ok, now you're mind reading. My initial "peek" was to see if she was ok,"
MMM no I'm not. If your "peek" was just to see if she was ok, you wouldn't even have posted it. The fact that you did shows that you know something's wrong about it. PLUS you mentioned so many times about how the A was eating you up, etc., that this is a natural reaction for anyone.
Quite honestly, it seems like you're in alot of denial. I believe much of it is from your guilt of what you did in the past and it's put blinders on you.
Mrbond - I'm a little confused as to your stance in my situation. I think back to the very first time I posted here 3 months ago and you jumped all over me for only thinking about myself, and not the pain my W went through to get to this point.
You made that point, and I eventually was able to begin seeing things through my W's PoV. I overlooked her A, and addressed myself and my numerous A's over the years.
Now it seems that you've flipped positions, and you're saying that I'm being supportive of her A, which I am not.
When I've shown little guilt (in the beginning), you criticized me. Now that I'm showing too much guilt, you're criticizing me again.
Perhaps you can help clarify your PoV on this.
You read the books right? My position hasn't flip flopped. You're just not getting it.
This goes along the lines of validation. You owned up to what you did was wrong which was fine. You're supposed to give support to your W. Fine. BUT that support doesn't go to encourage bad behavior. You are to UNDERSTAND what got her to the point she's at now, and you validate her feelings, however you're not supposed to take that support it and apply it to an A which is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.
That guilt that you're showing isn't being utilized correctly. You need to show remorse and validation of how she feels but now to the extent of actually encouraging her A, which you are doing by condemning the OMW and giving her a pass to go out with the OM when she feels like it.
I understand that, but I've also learned that I cannot control my W's behavior. I've made it clear to her that I do not support the A, in case she thought otherwise (which I'm pretty sure she doesn't anyway).
I do not encourage her bad behavior, but at the same time, from her PoV, we are "separated" and she's free to do whatever she wants.
Mindsin,
I am in the midst of confusion myself at the moment, A very good vet is helping me try to understand DBing better. I was/am getting a lot of it wrong. I need to stop what I am doing and revamp.
What I think MrBond is trying to say, correct if I am wrong MrBond please, While we as LBH can't control what our WAW do and of course, they think they are free to do whatever they want.
They are to a certain point allowed to do anything, the problem comes in when it starts take away our dignity as men and the disrespect is allowed to fester. If we don't stand up for ourselves we will never be respected by our WAW and without respect there is no love and without love there is no chance of R.
If I am off base, sorry but that is my understanding.
Do you have a parenting schedule? She is not 'free' to do whatever she wants-- she has children that she is responsible for, at least for part of the time.
Set up a parenting schedule if you don't have one.
It's also a bit strange to me how much you seem to talk with her about the A, the OM, the OMW. I'm not sure why that is something you discuss with her at all. (For ex, why is the OMW part of your signature line?? I don't see how that is relevant.)
You're in a tough spot, that's for sure, as she seems to flaunt her A in front of you. But you do have a choice in your own behavior and how you respond and act towards your W.
Both nit and claire have it correct.
Ok, thanks for your inputs. So the question is, right now, what (if anything) should be said or done?
The OM has moved away and for the foreseeable future, he will be seeing my W, at most, once every two weeks.
Detach and GAL, With OM away your W may start to throw out false positives to keep you reeling. Be a little mysterious maybe
just my opinion
This past week has been a test of my detachment. I've had better days than others. The phone call snooping really affected me, and not in a good way. What started out as simply trying to see where she was (since she didn't tell me where she was going on the 1st leg of her trip), turned into a daily check to see when and how long she was talking to the OM.
She did call me every day to talk to the kids.
What I found interesting was that there were zero phone calls from 9/25 (the day she left) and 9/29 (the day she told me she landed at her destination). On 9/29, there were a couple of brief calls to the OM.
9/30 - No calls.
10/01 - She arrived at her final destination, to stay with a former male co-worker from a previous job. There were a few brief calls to the OM throughout the day, capped by a 45 minute call at night. In between that, there was a longer than usual call to me to talk about my 1st day at my new job. This was also the first day she started texting me, regularly sending me photos of herself. This would continue for the next two days.
10/02 - A couple of 15 minute calls throughout the day to the OM capped by a 90 minute call at night.
10/03 - A 15 minute call in the evening to the OM, followed by a 45 minute call.
I found it interesting that:
1. She only started texting me regularly, sending me photos, since 10/01 -- the day she arrived at the place she told me she was going to prior to her departure last week. The other places she visited in the 6 days preceding that Wednesday were kept secret from me.
2. The frequent phone calls to the OM started only on 10/01, including nightly long 45+ minute phone calls.
Here are my possible hunches:
1. She spent several days with the OM, and maybe didn't have the heart to tell me. She may have told me beforehand that she needs to get away from everyone for a week (including the OM), but if my hunch is true, it would be disappointing.
2. She spoke to her friend starting on 10/01, and she may have wanted to share some of his insights and opinions with the OM.
I know I'm not supposed to be mind-reading and guessing, but this is bothering me way more than I know it should.
On a positive note, I have found that my new job is my GAL. This is an absolute win-win. I have met some amazing people in the 1st three days and there are company gatherings and outings planned that I'm very much looking forward to.
Minds in,
In my opinion it is not healthy (and certainly not DBing) to focus on your W and her R with OM. You seem to be obsessing over the phone records, how many calls or texts to you or to him.
So so so much mind reading going on.
Just step away from it.
Hi Mindsin,
The checking of W's phone records is snooping. It is bothering you so much because you know about it. If you didn't snoop, then you would not have the stress of what you learned. You are only inflicting pain on yourself by your snooping, and it does nothing to change what your W is doing. Protect yourself.
You said this on 9/22..
The OM leaves to start his new job in two days (2K miles away). The initial plan is (according to my W and the OMW) is that he'll be flying back every two weeks.
That would mean he left around the 25th (Thursday)...(same day as your wife mysteriously left.. He probably left to get prepared for his new job and get to know the new area better (as well as spend the weekend with your wife). I would assume he would start his new job on Monday (29th) of the following week.....
The timeline and phone calls just confirm what I told you before. 2+2=4... Your wife flew with the OM to his new place and spent the time together until she flew out Wednesday 10/1..... She then reached her final destination and that is why the phone calls started again. The reason there were no phone calls from when she left home, and through the weekend is that they were together. Plain and simple.
I told you this was going to happen. I realize this isn't what you probably want to hear. It is best for you to know the reality and not be stuck in a hope trap.
I didn't even have to snoop to tell you this was happening.
Go back and read what I told you a few days ago. It's pretty well spot on.
It's textbook of waywards.
She is lying to you and he is lying to his wife.
Now the question is... How do you handle this from here?
So you actually told me ...
"Ok, now you're mind reading.
My initial "peek" was to see if she was ok, and to maybe get a clue as to where she was. It had nothing to do with the OM.
Now its ... "The phone call snooping really affected me, and not in a good way."
Just be honest with yourself. You wanted to see where your W was f*cking the OM. It's as simple as that. It's okay. She's your W. Of course you want to try and take back what's yours.
But you are obsessing over it which is preventing you from working on yourself. Haven't seen much of that happening. Again, you never talk about your kids and what you do with them while she's away. Do that instead.
Mr bond - I'm not sure what more I can say about my kids. I am practically living the life of a single dad, even when she isn't 3000 miles away. I also have excellent support from my in laws who never think twice to lend a hand in caring for them (after-school pickups, making them dinner on the weekdays, etc). My kids are completely shielded from the situation. We spend a day as a family almost every weekend.
Mindsin,
You posted in detail the minutiae of your W's cell phone usage. You wrote a lot about that.
Push yourself to write more about how you are connecting with your kids and supporting them through this.
Ask yourself the very hard question of whether obsessing over your wife and her OM is taking time and mental and emotional energy away from the other very important people in your life.
I'm curious where your kids were when you were poring over the phone records and detailing it all here.
I'm sorry that this sounds harsh, but you didn't seem to get Mr.Bond's post. And you need to work on your GAL. Because if you were doing that, honestly, you would not have as much time or emotional energy to spend on your W's affair.
Tell us what you did this weekend so far? What have you (or can you) put emotional energy into? What in your life is bringing you joy? How so? Tell us!
"Mr bond - I'm not sure what more I can say about my kids."
How about detailing what exactly you DO with them? And I'm not talking about how it relates to your M. Do you take them to the park? Do you get ice cream? Do you comfort them at night, etc.?
You detail every single phone call, word and movement your W makes, yet you don't do the same for your kids.
How about detailing what exactly you DO with them? And I'm not talking about how it relates to your M. Do you take them to the park? Do you get ice cream? Do you comfort them at night, etc.?
You detail every single phone call, word and movement your W makes, yet you don't do the same for your kids.
I do what every normal parent does. I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this.
JUst butting in with my two Cents Mindsin,
If you focus more of your posts on what you do with your kids you won't be obsessing over what W does as much and it will give you a sense of pride for how well you can do as a single Dad.
Again, just my opinion
How about detailing what exactly you DO with them? And I'm not talking about how it relates to your M. Do you take them to the park? Do you get ice cream? Do you comfort them at night, etc.?
You detail every single phone call, word and movement your W makes, yet you don't do the same for your kids.
I do what every normal parent does. I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this.
Mindsin,
what do you mean when you say you are "not sure how any of that is relevant"?
Your children are not relevant to "this"? Yes they are.
Your interactions with them are not relevant? Yes they are.
You snooped a lot. Weirdly, you denied doing so when Bond commented and you insisted that you were only checking her messages "to make sure she was ok" -(instead of calling her on the phone and just asking her??)
But now you admit that in fact you did snoop~ and man
when you snoop you really get into the nitty gritty details of measuring length and frequency of phone calls and competing with OM and the world, I guess, between whomever she calls AND you, etc.
How does this help anything? IF you are verifying for a reason, (Like you'd divorce her if you learned she was still seeing OM, then snooping MIGHT make sense. But you are not doing anything different about it so you are just sabotaging your ego and self esteem.
I almost feel as if you are self flagellating b/c you know you treated her badly and so you deserve this - and that's why you are putting up with it.
I can see the validity of that^^--I really do.
BUT If you want to save the marriage, not so much.
But when others tell you to "STOP SNOOPING and to GAL, and to pay more attention the kids", you get all mysterious and baffled.
Then you asked us how YOUR CHILDREN are "RELEVANT" to this situation... 
You know they are more than "relevant"...
MIndsin, they are KEY to this situation.
My kids were easily and by far, the biggest single reason I bothered to DB.
Surely yours matter to you - and surely they are at least part of why you are here.
So how can you not see why we are asking you about them?
Let me shed some light on this...
When I was very angry at my h, (for almost a year of my life!)
I spent it spinning AND 1) asking "WHY/WHY?WHY?"
AND OR 2) complaining about how UNFAIR he was,
and or
3) feeling sorry for myself and
then 4) starting the ritual over, "WHY???" and then complaining about unfairness and then self pity and then
RINSE and REPEAT
I had to get off the "beltway and take an exit ramp" soon or I'd lose my mind.
Finally, when I was talking to my older sister and she said I had become a broken record and was getting into a "negative spiral" so that the "Venting is NOT helping", I STOPPED and looked at my behavior without any of my self serving biases...AND
I realized I was NOT fully present for my kids. When they'd talk to me I was usually pre-occupied or somehow relating whatever they said or were doing, to something about H.
"Oh, d8 is in a play. I wonder if H will finally come to see it"
OR
"Oh, d16 wants an IPOD, so I wonder if H will feel guilty enough to get it for her" and I could go on
but essentially EVERYTHING revolved around what I thought/feared/worried that H would do/think/feel/plan....
NOT my kids, NOT MY future, NOT My passions and interests or career (except as it related to h) and NOT anything BUT h.
It was obsessive and unhealthy and UNFAIR to the kids and NOT appealing to my h!
My kids already had lost their dad to Alaska,
so why lose ME to obsessing about him? Why make them emotional orphans?
I worry you may be doing a bit of that.
And in your case, your kids likely missed you a lot a few years ago, if they were old enough to notice your absences when you were with the prostitutes.
OR Maybe they noticed your wife's tears or fury or depression...I can't say b/c I was not there. But they needed you and so did your wife and you were not there, including when she was in labor If I recall right.
NOW, SHE is the one who is AWOL a lot, and leaves you home with them. Like Bond says, two wrongs don't make a right. It simply gives us backstory and explains your wife's choices a lot better than someone without that history.
SIDE NOTE: ((( BTW You mentioned that you "Babysit" but that term struck me as odd. At first I thought other people had dropped their kids off at your house for YOU to care for them, but then I realized they are YOUR kids -- so what you were doing is actually called "parenting".)))
I don't want to speak for others, so I'll say what it is that I'm looking for from you.
1) GAL activities, that do Not ALL relate to your work, or your kids (things YOU enjoy doing that make you more interesting and well rounded as a person, things NOT reminding you of your m or wife, so you are happier AND btw, so you also bring more to the table than your needs, for instance);
AND
2) information about how your children are doing AND how you are becoming a better father to them, specifically;
AND
3) ways you are showing your wife the new you, DONE BY SHOWING HER that;
a) you would be a better/different type of h to HER than before;
and
b) that you now know what a boundary is, i.e., how to set one clearly AND how to enforce it.
Does that^^ help clarify?
One other suggestion, which others have said before but I'll repeat, is to
post about your life, and NOT MENTION your Wife's OM, or his marriage.
and
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when discussing your w, ONLY talk about what she says or does that you saw or KNOW of,
and NOT what you think it means, or your opinion of her thought process.
So, in other words, tell us or Just describe, interactions between you two, NOT what you think she is doing away from you, or OM, or any more predictions about the future, OR your thoughts about OM's wife...
it's one thing to share your fears with us but quite another to pinpoint your future predictions and base present day behavior on what your future projections are...
As for the OM and his wife...I can only say one thing:
I just feel so sorry for that woman! None of us are in a position to judge her, least of all anyone involved in this unusual and very painful situation. IF she's not a breadwinner, then all her emotional pain is coupled with AND complicated by her fears of being on the streets with her kids.
((How terrified and hurt she must be. ))
YOU are not in the same position by a long shot. You have a job for one thing and a very different marital history from what I gather.
So have compassion for HER - but leave her out of your marriage and stay out of hers, okay? I mean, you really do have enough on your plate, emotionally speaking. Correct?
Look MIndsin, you know I think you have damaged your marriage A LOT. I know you know I think that. But I also think you keep coming back here even when it's NOT easy, and I believe that is because you are sincere in wanting to change your life.
I think you are realizing that means changing YOURSELF and as hard as that is, I think you want, to want it...
so for that I commend you. Stay the course, keep on keeping on and remember most of all to LISTEN - and be ready to Keep your mouth closed. The more you listen - the more YOU learn.
You don't learn when you are speaking (and believe me, I have to remind myself of that, a lot!)
Good luck
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"I do what every normal parent does."
And what is that? Surely not all parents go out, have affairs and then allows their spouse to.
"I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this."
Because itʻs a part of GAL. Because it helps you to become a better man. Because it makes you a better person. Because all you do is question the advice given to you rather than doing it.
When it comes to my children, I feel that I have always been a good father to them (yes, even during my years of infidelity). Like I have outlined before, my trysts were rarely in conflict with time I spent with my wife, or my family. They were usually during the work day (when my wife 'thought' I was at work), and NEVER on the weekends.
I read to them consistently every night. I bath them, help them with their homework, help them get dressed, talk to them about their day and the many life questions that they have for me. We have sing-alongs, we dance around the house, we play and run in our yard. I take my son to soccer. I take them to the pediatrician, the dentist, the playground, to birthday parties.
NONE of this has really changed (before or after BD), except I'm doing more of it now, due to my W being less and less available.
After BD, I have made myself even MORE emotionally available to them because they are the primary driving force for me saving my marriage. I have never cried in front of them. I have never sulked, or shown bitterness (regarding my W) in front of them. To them, I am still the happy silly dad I've always been. The only thing that has changed in their minds is that their mom has not been around as much. My 7 year old boy even asked me about it. I told him that mom works a lot to make money for the family.
So you see, this is what I meant by "what every normal parent does", because I don't think I'm doing anything extraordinary -- good or bad. My children are completely shielded from what's going on because more than ever, I'm watching and listening to them on a constant basis -- making sure their needs are met first and foremost.
That's not what we meant. Just detail your daily interactions with them here.
I find it interesting that you find it easy to detail every little interaction with your W here but when it comes to your kids, you sound very businesslike with no emotion whatsoever.
I think you guys might be coming down hard on mindsin. I recognize the need for tough love here, but I take him at his word when he says he is doing the generally unremarkable daily things one does for their kids. He's not on a forum for parenting advice, he's here to save his M. 25s advice is well stated, however I think it's wrong to pounce on his usage of the word "relevant". I don't believe he said that to imply that they don't matter, only that discussing his daily interactions with them isn't of the most importance, since he is striving to make that an area of consistency through DBing.
It is true however, mindsin, that obsessing over the details of your Ws phone patterns gets you nowhere. I know because I struggle with things like this as well.
I think the point Mr Bond and 25years (or at least I'll speak for myself that the point *I*) was trying to make is that paying more attention (and writing more) to what you are doing with your kids, Mindsin, or any other GAL activity will help you stop obsessing over your W and her OM.
The point is that you are focusing on the wrong thing-- not yourself.
DBing may or may not save your M, but it will save you if you follow it. Detailing your W's phone records, and paying such close attention to what she is doing or saying is NOT DBing.
Agreed. And it's vital advice. But the implication was that he was neglecting his kids. The purpose of this forum is a safe space to vent about fixations (yes many of them unhealthy) we have with our WAS so that those emotions don't bleed over into our interactions with our families.
Agreed. And it's vital advice. But the implication was that he was neglecting his kids. The purpose of this forum is a safe space to vent about fixations (yes many of them unhealthy) we have with our WAS so that those emotions don't bleed over into our interactions with our families.
I believe I said
I had not been "fully present for MY kids" when I was preoccupied by my h's doings. And I was simply TOO preoccupied.
I don't think this is a forum for venting, or at least it's not the primary purpose.
The primary purpose is to help apply the DB principles to our individual situations and to get support from others who have been down this road before or are on it with us, now.
Though I think Mindsink loves his kids, I also believe, strongly, that he spends far far too much time on his wife's actions/plans/feelings and what he thinks all of those are. If he were to use a coach, that's what I think they'd work on, i.e. himself. I myself did have a coach, and she was a Godsend. I had 15 sessions with her and it was magical for ME...
In MIndsink's posts, there's just way too much focus on HER, way too much mind reading and a whole ton of projecting about the future, without enough data...
and there is not enough focus on HIM. (I guess you could say that's a 180, but it's not the kind the book(s) or we were hoping for).
I stand by that statement though I'd love to be wrong about it.
claire is correct. 1foot2, you are way off base.
"But the implication was that he was neglecting his kids."
And where did we say that? That is mindreading on your part and shows you aren't reading fully the message posted. When you start taking your mind off the WAS and onto something positive like the relationship with your kids, you become a better person which does show through to the WAS.
MrBond and 25years, you have taught me so well!
Feel free to offer some insight over at my thread any time! (Still plenty for me to work on!)
Tough conversationMy W sat me down for a talk last night. She made it clear to me that she wants to file for divorce after the new year. She said this upcoming cruise will be the last family vacation we'd be going on. She burst into tears and reiterated again how she can't trust me, and that she was hoping that we could at least be friends, but even now she doesn't know.
This morning, she reached out to me via texts:
W: how are you feeling this morning, after our tough conversations from last night?Me: I didn't think our conversations were all that tough.
W: really?Me: yeah. Especially our 2nd conversation.
W: I am glad you feel that way. It was tough for me. overflow of emotions (in D3's room)Me: I know.
Me: I know you're going through a lot of pain.
W: our 2nd one, I'd agree, it was actually really helpful in a calm and peaceful wayMe: It hurts me to see you cry.
W: Just for the record, no matter how challenged our relationship were, I never ever wanted to see you get hurt either. It took a lot out of me seeing you cry at times.Me: I'm a very resilient person emotionally, believe it or not.
W: I may come across unemotional, but I do feel it in my heart of hearts. But I don't want to mislead compassion (for being together for so long) to something else for you.Me: something else?
W: I don't want you to think if I am comforting you in any ways, that there is a chance we would get back together.W: Which is why I've been very to the point, and not get involved in anything else.Me: Leave that up to me to decide.
W: Well, that could be a problem, leaving you to decipher or read between the lines. You've never been the best at that.Me: Nobody can predict the future. Did you think 6 months ago that we'd end up here?
W: I knew I wanted a change, but no, to your point, not exactly.Do you understand that, when I say, regardless what happens with me and [OM], my decision to be happy, still stands?Me: I understood that from the beginning.
Me: But like I said, nobody can predict the future.
W: I was thinking this morning on the drive in to work, that I actually (if you would allow), really like to read your journal. I think it helps me to understand you a little better. I think you were right to say last night, that in the past, when I thought i was doing the right thing for you, I wasn't.Me: I will let you read it when the time is right.
W: Okay.Me: Right now, it isn't the right time, and won't be for the forseeable future.
Me: I have no expectations. I only have hope.
W: Well, all kidding aside, you were always the more optimistic oneMe: Without hope, there is no point of living.
W: well, i have to go now. I need to fill out paperwork.
One thing that stood out that my W said to me the other night was how my contacts with Ann were "the ultimate betrayal".
She said this is the one thing that has completely shut the door on any chance for us to reconcile.
I don't see it. Can one of you perhaps make me see her PoV on this? I'm really trying to understand it.
"I don't see it. Can one of you perhaps make me see her PoV on this?"
I think you have a real disconnect with certain aspects of relationships. Same issue like when I asked to detail your activities with the kids. You refused to do it because you didn't understand why it was asked.
Your W is still hurting from your A's. All the sneaking around, talking to other women really dissolved her trust in you. When you first came on here, you got upset at us bringing up (what you felt) was the past. We stressed that it was very important, but rather than trying to understand, you kept arguing with us and said that you were "over it".
We told you that your W wasn't but you didn't listen. THIS is a result of that.
Then when you casually mentioned that you were confiding in another woman about your M problems. We told you to cut that off, but again, you refused to listen and argued back, using the excuse that you weren't interested in her so it doesn't matter.
When are you going to learn that it doesn't matter what YOU feel, but how your W does that matters?
That's what you're not getting.
One thing that stood out that my W said to me the other night was how my contacts with Ann were "the ultimate betrayal".
She said this is the one thing that has completely shut the door on any chance for us to reconcile.
I don't see it. Can one of you perhaps make me see her PoV on this? I'm really trying to understand it.
Please don't fall for this. I believe you are trying to make sense of nonsense. She has you right where she wants you.. No confidence and head spinning...
That way you won't mess up her affair by contacting Ann again.
You need to get working toward being more confident. A confident person wouldn't waste one second of time analyzing or believing that spin move that she pulled on you.. AND it seems to be working.....
I understand what you are saying, Mr bond. I know it only matters what my W feels. I'm trying to understand WHY she feels betrayed by me speaking to I'M (other than trying to sabotage her A with OM).
Didn't you read my post? I explained it all. THAT IS WHY. I explained in detail. What are you missing?
You talked to another woman behind her back and hid something from her like you did before. THAT'S WHY. I don't know how much clearer I can be. You claim to work with people at your job but can't seem to understand people in general.
Meaning, the OMW? Is it really as simple as that, and has nothing to do with her feeling like I'm getting in the way of her A?
Weekend getaway
In a few hours, I'll be leaving for a weekend getaway with my brother and 3 friends. It'll be a little road trip and I'm returning on Sunday. It will be a well-needed time away for me.
My W, the thoughtful person she is, bought us some snacks for the road (she gets a discount on her company's products).
I asked her what her plans were with the kids this weekend, and she said she didn't know.
She also pushed for me to ask my parents to come down on Sunday to take the kids back to their house where they can spend the night and return Monday evening. We both agreed that her parents need a break from watching them, and this gives them Monday off.
I thought it was a bit unusual how she was pushing for them to come on Sunday (as early as possible). My hunch is that OM will be in town, and she does not want to ask her parents to watch them. My in-laws told me today that if she asks them to watch the kids (for a day or overnight) this weekend and it's because of the OM, that they will voice their displeasure. I stressed to them not to do anything for my benefit(don't do me any favors), and only do what they feel is right. We'll see where that goes.
But I need to take my mind off all those possibilities. I know my W won't put my kids in any potential harmful situation, even if it's emotionally harmful. I trust her on that.
Both women. The OMW and the woman who you told us you were corresponding with online. That's a dual betrayal on top of all of the ones you did before.
No sign of A ending
My suspicions regarding my W's plans this weekend came to fruition. She told me nothing about what she was planning with the kids when I asked her.
I called her yesterday afternoon to see how everything was going back home and to talk to the kids. She said that she was out "doing things" and that the kids are over her parents' house eating dinner.
I called her parents' house and my oldest picked up the phone. He said he had a fun day. I asked him where his mother went. He said that she went to work. I then asked to speak to my FIL.
When he got on the phone he was clearly irate. My Wife basically dumped the kids on them on a whim's notice. She told them to keep the kids there overnight. I asked him what happened and where she said she was going.
She went to the city with the OM. She's coming back tomorrow evening, shortly after I arrive from my weekend trip. I couldn't tell if he was angry at me, her, or the situation, or a combination of all.
Then my MIL got on the phone. She was much calmer than my FIL and explained that she and her H both voiced their displeasure to my W. She said my W basically ignored them and just left. I told them that I am sorry for this mess and I emphasized how this is unfair to them. I assured her that I will do my best to come back as early as possible on Sunday to get the kids.
I know that it's only been a couple weeks since the OM left (moved out of state) and that she may be going through withdrawls since she no longer sees him every day at work + 2 to 3 nights/week, etc.
As soon as I came home on Sunday, she was off to see the OM. She said "I'm going to spend the night again and come back home tomorrow night. OK?"
I replied, "No, it's not OK. You spent the day and night with him yesterday and this morning. I was hoping we could spend the rest of Sunday as a family. But I can't stop you from doing what you want."
She replied, "I actually didn't spend much time with [OM] yesterday, and I came back early today and spent the whole day with the kids"
"We could have spent more time this weekend as a family, but you were out, so."
I thought to myself, ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME???
I didn't answer her. But she was lying. I know (through her parents) that she dropped the kids off around noon on Saturday, and picked them up a little before 2:00pm Sunday. I came home at 3:45pm. So unless TWO HOURS worth of time = "all day with the kids", she is blatantly lying. She also lied to her parents, telling them that I will be coming by early in the morning (Sunday) to get the kids. She KNEW I wasn't leaving my resort until noon on Sunday, and it's a four hour drive back from there. She lied to them in order to have a better chance of them to agree to watching the kids.
Later that evening, my FIL came over and wanted to talk to me. He said that had he known she was going to come over in the afternoon (on the following day) to pick up the kids, he would have absolutely refused. As it was, both he and my MIL told her that what she was doing was wrong, and that she should be with the kids. Words like that need to come from people who are NOT me, and I'm thankful that they are standing up to her.
My parents will be coming over today to spend the day with the kids -- giving my in-laws a much-needed day off from watching the kids.
As I'm typing this, she texted me, "How are the kids? Are your parents coming over today? Can you let me know what time they're leaving so I don't bump into them?"
I didn't answer her, and I don't intend to.
Oh man oh man. Do you think you will tell her you know she was lying? I guess I'm not sure what that would accomplish. I would wait and see what her parents say, but my guess is she's not hearing much since she's comfortable lying to them. I'm in a similar situation...hard to know what to do.
She knows she lied. I'm not sure what I gain by confronting her about it. This is the first time she blatantly lied to them.
As soon as I came home on Sunday, she was off to see the OM. She said "I'm going to spend the night again and come back home tomorrow night. OK?"
I replied, "No, it's not OK. You spent the day and night with him yesterday and this morning. I was hoping we could spend the rest of Sunday as a family. But I can't stop you from doing what you want."
She replied, "I actually didn't spend much time with [OM] yesterday, and I came back early today and spent the whole day with the kids"
"We could have spent more time this weekend as a family, but you were out, so."
Mindsin,
Maybe I'm just really having trouble understanding your situation, but this whole exchange seems so bizarre to me. And, I also don't understand why you are apologizing for your W lying to her parents?
Do you have a parenting schedule in place? I really don't understand why you are not setting some boundaries. Set a parenting schedule-- this is your time with the kids, this is mine. It's totally bizarre to me that you would have "family" time when she is very open out her affair. Can you help me understand that? That sounds like cake-eating, doesn't it?
So, if she decides to 'dump' your kids on her parents during her scheduled time, that is their issue with her, and you should not be involved at all. Get a schedule in place, make sure your parents and her parents know what the schedule is, put it on a shared calendar somewhere if you have to, and then go live your life. Their issues with her should be separate from yours. Don't be on a "team" with them against your W. It will NOT pull her closer to you.
And do you think that what you said above (which sounded pretty clingy and needy) will pull her closer to you?
Start focusing on YOU, Mindsin. That is the path you need to be on.
I am not apologizing for my W's lying.
We don't have a parenting schedule in place. We both live under the same roof and on most days, we parent them together. We agreed on this because we felt it was best for the kids. In fact, it is almost always my W who suggests family time (weekend day trips and such). It absolutely is cake-eating, but what else can I do at this point? I failed to set that boundary early on, and that's my fault.
Right now, I am going to continue focusing on myself, making myself the best man, husband, and father as I can be. Being on a "team" with her parents will not bring her closer to me, but my FIL believes it may make my W realize that there is an additional cost to her actions (losing her parents' respect) that she may not have faced up to in the past. My FIL believes this will be the case once he sits down and has a heart-to-heart talk with her. He said he wants to wait a couple of weeks and then sit my W down with himself and his W (both parents) over some coffee and have this talk. Culturally speaking, my W is very big on "saving face". Family shame could indeed come into play here -- not only with her parents, but with her large network of aunts, uncles, and cousins. I understand that a WAW cannot be shamed out of her fog, but this is something that is out of my hands. Her parents are going to do this because they want us to remain married and they are looking out for the well-being of their grandchildren first and foremost. They understand the impact of divorce.
Then my MIL got on the phone. She was much calmer than my FIL and explained that she and her H both voiced their displeasure to my W. She said my W basically ignored them and just left. I told them that I am sorry for this mess and I emphasized how this is unfair to them. I assured her that I will do my best to come back as early as possible on Sunday to get the kids.
^^^This sounds like an apology to me.
Again, I don't understand how you can't put boundaries in place... unless, of course, you are willing to have an open marriage. That is what you seem to have at the moment. Your W comes and goes as she pleases, is open about spending time with her OM, and instead of letting her live her life while you live YOUR life separately, you complain to her that she should be spending more time with her family.
I encourage you to step outside of your hurt and pain and desperation to save your M and prevent your child from being hurt and try to see this from a more objective viewpoint.
She has zero incentive to do anything differently. You cannot control what she does. Heart to heart talks probably won't have much effect on her. You can only control you.
I dunno. Maybe Mr. Bond or someone else can articulate it better, although I think they already have.
Good luck to you.
I'm curious about the boundary question, as mindsin's sitch is similar to mine. How can he put boundaries on his Ws behavior with OM without being controlling, pursuing and overall anti-DB?
I was apologizing because had I known for sure that my W would be doing this, I would have stayed home and not put the burden on her parents. I only asked her what she planned on doing with the kids (what activities, etc.) this weekend and she simply said that she doesn't know yet. At that point, I didn't think it would have been beneficial for me to probe her further and ask if OM was coming and if she planned to spend the weekend with him.
We are living our lives separately, but we are parenting together when we are in the house. It's not an open marriage in a sense, because she is not committed to me in any way. If I were to push the issue, she would simply say, "fine, I'll move out" or "fine, I'll file for D". It was she who on several occasions have told me that living together is not a good idea given that we're "unofficially separated".
If you have any advice on specific boundaries I could put in place, I'm all ears.
Mindsin, I'm not sure what to say.
Again, I don't understand why it's your responsibility to apologize to her parents for HER irresponsibility. Didn't you have an out-of-town trip? Wasn't the parenting HER responsibility for the weekend? And if you knew she was going to spend the weekend with her OM, you would have CANCELLED or changed your plans to accomodate her???? Really??
I'm not sure what to say. I'm sorry.
Not to accommodate her -- to accommodate her parents. You're right, it is also accommodating her.
It's better that I put her in that difficult situation and force her to have to confront her parents about it.
She typically shies away from any conversation about the OM with her parents because she knows her parents disapprove.
Also, regarding the cake-eating...
Isn't cake-eating when she's getting needs met by BOTH parties?
Right now, she doesn't need me for anything. She gets no support from me -- emotionally, physically, or financially.
The only thing she "needs" me for is to help around the house and to be a co-parent to our children. Those are two things that I obviously won't be giving up.
Spending less time with my children is not something I'm willing to do. Besides, I don't ever want to give her any sort of ammunition to be able to say I was not there for our children during this time.
Not helping around the house will be a complete reversal of the 180 I've been doing since BD, and back to my "old ways", so again, counter-productive.
"Right now, she doesn't need me for anything. She gets no support from me -- emotionally, physically, or financially."
She lives at home with you doesn't she? Eats the food you provide. Dresses the kids in clothes that you provide funding for. That's support.
Both of you are very messed up in the relationship dept. When it comes to your kids, put your foot down.
Both of you are very messed up in the relationship dept. When it comes to your kids, put your foot down.
How? Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do?
Tell her that you want to be told when she can't watch them and not have them passed onto her parents. Even if you are D'd, the other parent has the right to the children when the other is not available.
All this does is mess up your kids. This is another reason why I keep asking about them. And even in this case, you concentrate more on your in-laws feelings than your kids.
Ok, thanks for the advice. MrBond.
My W came home tonight giving me a cold shoulder like she never did before. I don't know if it's because I ignored her text from this morning, or because she believes I took her phone and texted the OM "something" the other day. She accused me of it. She said "I'm pretty sure I didn't text that to him, but I could be wrong."
I absolutely did not, but if she wants to believe I did, then I don't think I could convince her otherwise.
Ignore her.
"I absolutely did not, but if she wants to believe I did, then I don't think I could convince her otherwise."
You can't. She's going to believe what she wants to believe. Keep your eyes on your kids.
One thing that stood out that my W said to me the other night was how my contacts with Ann were "the ultimate betrayal".
She said this is the one thing that has completely shut the door on any chance for us to reconcile.
I don't see it. Can one of you perhaps make me see her PoV on this? I'm really trying to understand it.
Please don't fall for this. I believe you are trying to make sense of nonsense. She has you right where she wants you.. No confidence and head spinning...
That way you won't mess up her affair by contacting Ann again.
JC, maybe I'm late to this part of the party (i.e. your posts) but have you read this man's whole thread?
What is it you do Not want him to "fall for", that SHE was hurt by his multiple affairs? Why would you NOT believe that? I sure do and so does he (as of last week).
His wife IS NOT playing some game. He cheated on her, for years, with several different women and used marital assets to do so (b/c they were call girls, although despite that - he also wrote them notes and flirted and texted and acted like they were affairs, regardless of the financial aspects).
After she learned of it for the 3rd time (4th?) they went to counseling and he again promised he'd stop...and she again, sobbed...
He lost every job he had, until recently, and didn't warn her of the sudden loss of income. So she has gotten zero "security" from him, financial or marital and those are huge attractions for women.
WE WANT OUR H'S TO PROTECT AND PROVIDE...sexist as that may sound...
Since women value Security (financial, marital and emotional) in their men AND fidelity, these betrayals cuts to the core in her). And This went on for YEARS...
and so she's been thru A LOT and she stayed with him...
Now, SHE is having an affair - and you are acting as if there is no context to it, as if the worst should be assumed about her, but there is context and I see no reason for your assumptions of negativity.
This woman has fulfilled her vows above and beyond what most women would, until quite recently. Even in her FOG, she's trying to do the right thing, (comparatively speaking).
Thankfully, Mindsinks has a DB coach. A good one! Let him stay the course set with his DB coach. We are here to supper that, not combat it.
Mindsinks also has a few posters who have read his whole thread. I hope you will too, before you act as if his wife's behavior lacks context or before (Bond, Claire, me and I'm not sure who else)
So when you blurt out your opinion and recommend such a black & white perspective, it makes me think you have read some but not all. Plus, He is trying to stay married And if he becomes the punitive "tough love" party in this, it'd be supremely hypocritical of him, don't you think? She stayed with him thru several affairs...
Bottom line is, She has not acted in a vacuum. And he's trying to do the right thing by her, by the marriage, by the family and by him.... Okay?
You need to get working toward being more confident. A confident person wouldn't waste one second of time analyzing or believing that spin move that she pulled on you.. AND it seems to be working.....
Why does JCred still post? He doesn't have his own thread and just chimes in from time to time off the cuff. Every single posting I've read of his has been hurtful or combative or both.
Oh, I have to chime in on this one. JCred is the man that said he had no idea what "the high road" meant and he didn't think you should be cordial to your spouse or x spouse.
Just did a backflip off my soapbox and stuck the landing;-). Back to regular scheduled programming.
^^^
Amen...guess we're spotting them better than we knew.
French lessons
It looks like my W is GAL-ing better than I am. Earlier today, she sent me an e-mail about buying a software program to teach her French (like Rosetta Stone). She always wanted to learn French. At one time, she even suggested we learn it together.
She wanted me to look it over to make sure it'll be easy enough to install on her iPad, iPhone, etc.
I read the details, gave it a thumbs up and told her to go for it.
She replied, "Okay, as long as it is easy set up, as we know I am very challenged in this area!" (technology)
She's not asking me for my help. She just wants me to read it over to make sure it's something that's easy enough for her to do. Obviously if she asks me for my help installing it, I will.
At least she's talking to me again (nicely).
French lessons
It looks like my W is GAL-ing better than I am. Earlier today, she sent me an e-mail about buying a software program to teach her French (like Rosetta Stone). She always wanted to learn French. At one time, she even suggested we learn it together.
She wanted me to look it over to make sure it'll be easy enough to install on her iPad, iPhone, etc.
I read the details, gave it a thumbs up and told her to go for it.
She replied, "Okay, as long as it is easy set up, as we know I am very challenged in this area!" (technology)
She's not asking me for my help. She just wants me to read it over to make sure it's something that's easy enough for her to do. Obviously if she asks me for my help installing it, I will.
At least she's talking to me again (nicely).
Seems to me she's GAL and involving you. In my book, those are positives.
Of course it's also a great example of Gal that you might follow...b/c you need to GAL more than I can say.
Come to think of it, Can you name 3 GAL things YOU are doing, as of now?
What NEW Behaviors can she see that would make her believe you are a different man than you were before? Can you name 2 or 3 specifics? It helps to see them in writing, so you know how to measure your progress or if you are staying on your chosen path.
And Keep up the good work!