I checked the online court records tonight and I see that my wife has filed for divorce. Thank God I've been coming to this site to help mentally prepare for what's ahead. I did not break down emotionally, which is good. Wow, I'm happy about that as I write this. I have put off seeing a lawyer, but now I'm forced to. This is so sad. 18 years of marriage, and several children threatened.
I called my best friend. He's such an encouragement to keep my head up and keep believing. I sent my wife a text simply stating that I'm so so sorry that we have gotten to the point and I know the road must have been very difficult for her. I did not beg or plead, just offered a sincere apology. No response.
So at church, we are playing songs about faith, praise, and surrender. How appropriate they are. That's where my hope is now.
Sorry to hear that your wife filed. I pray that she becomes more open to reconciliation in the weeks and months ahead. Your prayers for my wife would also be appreciated.
I'm sorry to hear this. I'll be thinking of you today and lending some extra support.
Thank you. You bet I'll pray for you also. :-)
Sorry that it happened and sorry that's the way you found out. Thinking of you today.
I'm glad I know. It's better than being served not expecting it.
She did reply back to me stating she's sorry too and sorry that I could not make the (emotional) connections needed to keep this from happening.
I'm sorry to hear about your wife filing, prayers out to you!
Don't give up hope. Plenty of couples remarry after divorce.
Sorry to hear that FD, mine is coming very soon as well. I am happy you didn't get to emotional over it, I am sure mine won't be the same
I've been there, Mine has had the paperwork set to go atleast 3 times , we went to a mediation session once, sounds like you are a man of faith .... my advise ... hold on to that, hold onto God like a scared 3 year od boy holds onto his fathers leg. I was not what I consider religous before all this happened, but now I refuse to miss/skip out on church and I shudder at where I would be without Him in my life.
Someone told me, there comes a time you can only do so much, you must get on both knees, pray, and just give it up Him, pray for him to soften her heart, to work on her, then continue to DB, GAL, 180 ... its never to late.
Thank you Cali. I needed that. I was served today at work. Lots of tears and crying out to God. It's so hard when they do this. We have many children involved and I have to be able to function for their sake. I'm just in such grief.
My best friend had some good advice after I said something that was telling. After each sucker punch (search for appt, move out, angry rant, file for D, service of D papers), after a few days I would get to a point where I could safely coast. Meanwhile my WAW was/is working on the next speed bump. So instead of coasting (or hiding in the fox hole), he said I need to treat this thing as a battle and be in constant motion to help turn it around. Whether prayer, or anticipating the next move. I thought that was good advice.
I'm glad I know. It's better than being served not expecting it.
She did reply back to me stating she's sorry too and sorry that I could not make the (emotional) connections needed to keep this from happening.
That statement makes me angry. As if your failure to connect is 1) all your fault and 2) sufficient excuse to throw in the towel without concern for the consequences.
FunDad, we're with you. And, yeah, she got a big head start and that keeps you, me, and every other LBS playing catch-up. Keep DB'g. It's VERY hard to see, but off in the distance, behind the uncertainty is a better you, and a man prepared to walk through fire to teach his kids better than he was taught.
Yeah, we know they will placing the blame on us so I was not surprised. I just said "I understand" (neutral). In a way I'm glad she's following the WAW pattern (Just hopes she boomerangs). She also said that she had done everything that she could to save the marriage, also not true.
So I spoke with the receptionist at my lawyer's office, and they really helped me calm down a bit. I'll be able to completely refute a couple items in the petition that will put her petition in a negative light I think. Ironically, I'm using the same attorney that filed our last adoption. This helps me catch up because he has all of our family information. Unfortunately, the trial could dig up a bunch of negative issue, that will be tough.
Hi, FunDad. I wanted to pop in and let you know that I'm sorry your W filed. I'm wishing you peace and strength today.
Today ended nicely. Got to church, rocked the place on Drums (and heard an amazing message I needed), went to the pool, then had a beer with my neighbor who is very supportive.
It is a roller coaster however.
Roller coasters are supposed to be fun!
Sorry your W filed, take care of you.
I saw her while I picking up kids today at her place. They had a family session at her house yesterday and the kids met with a therapist to discuss the divorce.
She did tell the kids this morning "We like Daddy". They were being grumpy. I guess that's good. I wanted to reach out and hug her so badly, but sadly, that's not ok now. I feel like she's carrying a heavy burden because she knows how bad she hurt me, and our kids. I wanted to say "Are you sure you want to do this?", but I don't think she can honestly answer that at this point. Very awkward.
So I went to see an attorney yesterday. My W's filing is asking for the moon, and my response will be to whittle it down as much as I can. On my side is the fact that it's incredibly irresponsible to adopt more children and the turn around and move/divorce. On her side is the fact that she filed first, has moved, has most the kids, and is setup in another residence that needs to be supported. What I'm told will happen at the end of the day is the court will make it as fair as possible to help make sure we can both support our respective household, pay our debt, and take care of kids (priority). I hope that's how it shakes out because I could live with that for now. Being able to stay in my home, get it fixed up, and make it a wonderful place for them to visit. It has the potential to nice enough to do weddings at if the kids choose to do that in the furture. Maybe the first one could be me and my wife, marrying again after divorce. Anyway, I feel better after speaking to my attorney, but the attorney noted she seems to have had some great advice setting me up for this. I hate to think that about my wife, but it appears to be all about the money now. How sad is that.
Odd feeling: Friday afternoon, I felt as if I walked through a door basically exiting me from the responsibility of being accountable for the decisions my wife is making now. Free from the responsibility of being her husband. It seemed strange, peaceful, and secure in a way. I feel if I can get some financial security, that will be the last hurdle to setting my mind free of the nightmare that's been handed to me and truly detaching.
Had most of the kids today. Hate that feeling of despair as your family leaves to go to "their place". It's wrong. So so so wrong. God when will she wake up?
Hang in there.
Had a great day today. Got to play in church, again. Went to see my grandma and did a small side job this evening (that my wife would normally have said no to). So, a good GAL day!
Meanwhile in the reality of the Big D land, I'm gathering all the financial docs the court will need to divide my income and our assets. What a drag that is.
So, like many others, I feel ups and downs. Detached and then grieved. My mother says she thinks I will take off like a rocket when this thing is done and will not be looking back, at least to my spouse. That's encouraging yet at the same time concerning because I do want her back, but she must be able to admit her part in this, and not just come back for money. How awful would that be for her to say "I get a second chance" if she can't or won't admit her issues ALSO played a part.
FD
I meet again with my Attorney this morning. I have delivered to her all of our financial info. If I sell the house, I could wipe out all our debt and start back at zero. I'd have to fix up the house alot to sell it, but it may be easier to just do that and start over. Otherwise, I carry the debt load. I can afford child support and alimony, but not that AND all the debt. My hope is that I can keep the house however so the kids can have a place to visit, but I don't know if the memories here will be a good thing or bad thing yet for everyone. I do like the idea of having the house for in case that my W decides to reconcile. It's still here.
I've not missed any payments during this whole thing, so I still have a "good" credit score.
My wife is still steadfast about the D. I have been helping her with little things here and there, and she won't hesitate to ask for "favors", mainly dealing with the children. No letters or begging from me at all. I did notice, that she has a new FB friend that she had an online EA with several years ago. He's a creep, and it makes me angry to see this. She had promised to break off all contact with him. I guess that deal is off too.
I'm just wanting this nightmare to end.
Wish me luck.
FD
Meanwhile in the reality of the Big D land, I'm gathering all the financial docs the court will need to divide my income and our assets. What a drag that is.
I know... seeing your entire R converted into numbers on a spreadsheet in order to be hacked apart... it is awful.
Hang in there. On one hand, there is always a chance of reconciliation. Always. You have a history, you are tied together with your kids. You'll have many opportunities to be seen by her as you live a good life without her and she'll be rethinking herself and her poor decisions.
On the other hand, you've got to move forward as if you are already D, as if this is your life and you've accepted it. It was very hard for me to reach this point but when I could do it, everything shifted for me in a positive way. By accepting the end of my M, I felt like I had gained control in my life.
That's not to say I still don't mess up, forget that I've accepted it, fall down, cry, or feel bad. I still do. It's the consistent, forward progress you make that is important.
Hang in there, FunDad. I have to file my response today, and I'm dreading it.
Fun Dad- in same boat as you! Its hard and it doesn't make sense to you! I realize that I cant help my W find happiness! That comes from within her! I know its hard but think its best to be the best you can be. Show her by actions what a good person she is leaving and maybe sometime soon she will realize it!
So I guess some good news. It appears as I expected it would financially. She's probably only going to get a couple hundred more per month from me than she currently is. This is because I pay ALL of our debt, her insurance(s), and did not force her to leave the home. I may have to take the debt to keep the house however. That's worth it to me so I think I'm good. If she fights it, we can just recommend to the judge that she move her and kids back in to the marital home and I go somewhere else. Also, my son living with me has a mental disorder that does not bode well for him moving, again. So, I may get to relive my childhood in the bachelor pad and work extra odd jobs to pay down the debt.
My counselor does not think this is the end for us. He describes it as she's on the highway headed south, and won't exit and turn around until this door has been closed (The D). Once she does exit, there will have to be some conditions to start the turn around, of which this board is all about. I really believe that she will eventually turn around, but, it's just so painful waiting.
If you have not seen the post today labeled "I'm going to be ok" it's worth the read. I think I'm going to be ok too, just anxious waiting to be sure.
FD
Well, today at kid pick up my wife said I smelled nice. Chalk up one for the DB score. :-) I also attended a professional training luncheon today and sat by a women who knows my wife. She said she's sorry about our situation. I thanked her, talked with her some, and told her this is not my finish line.
I did also let my wife not today that my attorney would be delivering any support I provide her to her attorney (we are in pre-temporary hearing land negotiation). At the end of that short conversation she replied "You mean you are not going to cooperate?". She seemed a bit nervous asking me that. I simply told her I'm following the advice of my attorney (which I did not tell her includes no alimony).
She may have to get a job. Which is not what I wanted for her, but she just may have to do that. We will see.
FD
I know how you feel.
If she has to get a job, ultimately that's going to be her fault/decision. But it still doesn't remove your pain and disappointment, I get it.
Yes, she has made a decision, and she must live with the consequences of her decision.
She's probably created a WAW movie script that says she can have an A, D you, and then have everything paid for by you. You ARE cooperating with her, but you are living in the Real World, which of course is at odds with the movie she's creating. You certainly have no obligation to play along in the role she assigned you.
Big wakeup call coming for her!
I think you are correct that it's going to be a big wake up call, probably for both of us. A valid question in my mind remains would I take her back knowing it's just for financial reasons.
A valid question in my mind remains would I take her back knowing it's just for financial reasons.
FunDad, some of the ladies on this board have had this discussion. Would we want our H's back if the triggering event was financial. Several of us say, yes, we don't care what the triggering event is, if that starts us down the path to R. Not that we would just accept them back without additional work from both of us, just that we don't care why they decided to put in the work. Make sense?
Several of us say, yes, we don't care what the triggering event is, if that starts us down the path to R. Not that we would just accept them back without additional work from both of us, just that we don't care why they decided to put in the work. Make sense?
I like this. I wish my wife needed me financially...:)
Wow, yes, that does make alot of sense. I can live with that. Especially for the kids sake. I think it makes so much more sense to have both a mom and a dad around. We were working on the R for a while, but she was also working on her exit plan too unfortunately. Thanks for helping find this answer. I don't mind sleeping in a tent in the back yard if I know my family is close and safe.
No word on the legal front today but I expect some info tomorrow.
My W said that my 12 yr old D asked her about our vows. D12 also said "that daddy is doing so good." That must have been a tough one for W but it made my day. My W looks so tired. She leaned over on my truck like she wanted me to rub her back, I wanted to but I did not. I feel sorry for her, but I don't know what to say.
I guess the lawyers are taking their time. My FIL called me today and said it's not right to make my W wait for her money because her rent is due tomorrow. He does not like what's she done (Big D) but at the same time he does not like seeing his D nervous. I don't blame him, I don't like it either but I think it may need to be part of the process. I've not reached out to her about it yet other than what I told her last week that it's going to have to go through our attorneys. I guess I could save her day again and just write her a check if the attorneys are not going to get it done in time, but I just don't know if it's wise to do so. I could put her mind at ease but doing so would be another instance of taking my support for her for granted. Any advice?
Don't do anything without talking to your attorney first. That's what he/she is there for. Trust in the process.
I'm trusting the process. She had to borrow $$ from a fam member while this is shaking out. Looks like she will probably be getting less from me per month which is completely ironic because that's why she sued (D) me according to her. Also, I found out why it's so important to get an attorney that is plugged in to the local law professional culture. I found out that W's attorney tried to convince her this is not a good idea, but my W came back and hired him anyway. Our attorneys know each other so well that they can probably settle this in about 10 minutes. Shoot - I should have just went and talked to her lawyer myself I think because it feels like they are both DB'ing for me. :-)
So I'm feeling better, but my wife is angry and would not let me take kids out tonight as scheduled. I'll need to make sure that's addressed also cause she does this when things don't go her way.
FD
I'm doing so much better at detaching. Also made a bit of progress legally, but they sent me a discovery request which is just a huge mountain of financial paperwork. I delivered some furniture to her at her place. She actually gave me a wine cooler. First nice thing she's done in weeks. I mean weeks. I had no idea it would mean so much to me. Anyway, I took it home and had some pizza. :-)
It's hard to tell if reality is setting in with her or not yet. When I gave her the monthly child support check she seemed to have a look of remorse. I hope she's waking up but no expectations there.
I don't mind sleeping in a tent in the back yard if I know my family is close and safe.
FunDad, if this how you truly feel, you
will find a way to make this right for your children, no matter what your W does. Praying for you now - you are a good man.
Thanks for the kind words. This group is such a great support.
So I'm feeling better with each day that passes and the fog is starting to lift. I complemented my wife last night on the house and neighborhood she found to move her and the kids to. There are plenty of friends for the kids. I also apologized for not being the leader I needed to be in our marriage and she said she forgave me. The tone of the conversation was in the frame of me accepting that we are going to get a divorce and just talking to her as my ex-wife. I had a very very hard time accepting this is going to be the new reality. Time makes it easier. The DB'ing does also. Detaching, regardless of whether it brings them back or not, is such an important part of this process because without it you are completely stuck where they dropped you. She's had months if not years to get to this point emotionally and I'm just now catching up. I'm beginning to see the fact that life will be ok whether she comes back or not. A part of me still hates that thought but another part of me sees relief in it. I'm still not giving up, I'm just not as emotionally tied to winning her back as I was before, which makes 180's and GAL much easier.
I'm off work this week so I'll have the kids much of the time. Let the fun begin!
Awesome to hear FD. I was getting worried about you because I haven't seen you in awhile.
Have fun with the kiddos!
I feel the same way too. It definitely feels a lot easier to get on with my life now. Detaching and acting as if has definitely helped a lot too. Isn't the feeling so great when nothing the WAS says or does make you emotionally crazy or just make you cry like it used to? I know you will be fine, you sound a lot better. I still hope everything works out and somehow at some point she will realize what she is missing out on.
So we agreed on the temporary order and it will be filed by her attorney. I went to pick her up today because she is having vehicle issues and we went to make a few adjustments. She claims she told me that we could use the same attorney for this so it would not be as expensive. I have absolutely no recollection of that conversation. I was rather shook up at ground zero time however and I may have missed that, but I really don't think I would miss something that huge. I have an excellent attorney, and I don't think she likes that. Anyway, she also restated that the D is my fault, basically because I would not blindly share my pay check with her after she moved out with the kids.
My latest concern still is that I'm not going to "feel like" caring enough to want her back after things are settled. I think I'll still be able to muster up the discipline to keep at it anyway however. I can see she is stressed, not sleeping, and overwhelmed trying to do all this on her own and it makes me feel sad for her.
I don't know that you can really predict whether you will feel like taking her back or not. WAS could change her mind tomorrow or 5 years down the road, or never really. Just one of those bridges you have to cross when you come to it I would think. I don't remember where I saw it today but I saw a quote this morning that comes to mind. "Where the mind leads the heart will follow, if you let it." If that day comes and you have the road paved home you might decide its best for everyone and take that chance. But at least you are doing the work to have a happy life regardless.
I'm so glad that I've come this far to be emotionally detached from her. She made some plans to be gone for a few days without telling me. I have no idea where she is or who she is with and I did not make a big deal of it. Normally this would have thrown me for a loop, but now it's no big deal. I know she did this on purpose to send a message, but my message will be that it's not going to affect me. When she gets back, I may ask her that in the future she let me know what's going on so I at least know what the plan for our children is.
Good job, FD.
Hey what concert are you guys practicing for?
Thanks Jefe. We are doing an outdoor gig for the community this weekend. Fun oldies!
Oh, how fun.
It amazes the truly fun, family, spirit building things the WAS's miss out on.
I hope everyone else had as much fun last night with their kids as I did. I got to play in a band with my oldest son to people coming and going and we had a blast. I've wanted to do that for years with him. My MIL came by and took my kids around for trick or treating. I really love my MIL and she's been a great support through this. She's just as torn up as I am about the D, and I'm so glad I have a great relationship with her. WAW decided to leave for a weeks vacation last weekend w/out telling me or some of our kids. That was really disappointing, but luckily she lined up some good child care and it was really no big deal.
Glad we get an extra hour of sleep tomorrow because that wore me out, in a good way. :-)
FD
Hi FunDad.
I notice you are very indirect. So, I am going to ask a blunt question and I want a very blunt answer.
Do you want a divorce? Yes or no. Very simple question.
I don’t want to hear about all your wife’s issues. I don’t want to hear how your response is contingent upon "changes" you wife makes. Or how "you wanted to be married but don't know anymore."
I don’t want to hear anything more about all the failings of your wife and how much you have suffered because of her.
Yes or no: Do you want to stay married to your wife—as she is right now. Without any changes on her part.
You keep her as she is. Like this forever.
Yes or no?
Wow, Hope, that is very direct. Thank you for putting me on the spot.
Yes, I do want to stay married.
What we had before is dead however. I know what my primary failure was: Not being the leader our home needed, and letting her overwhelm herself. Once she started making decisions for the family, I gave up my role and became just a big child in her eyes to manage. Totally unsexy and just a distraction for her. If men don't perform our role, we force our wives to, and then eventually the leave because they don't need us.
If I could make changes on my part and reset the clock back a year, our situation would be salvageable with no changes required from her, other than getting accustomed to me leading more.
FD
I want you to pay attention to what you just did.
I asked a very direct question:
"Yes or no: Do you want to stay married to your wife—as she is right now. Without any changes on her part."
And you...took a shot...at her.
First, you responded as if you were 100% responsible for the problems in your marriage:
"I know what my primary failure was: Not being the leader our home needed"
But then you took the shot:
"..and letting her overwhelm herself. Once she started making decisions for the family, I gave up my role and became just a big child in her eyes to manage."
May I translate?
I could have been the leader in our home if she wouldn’t have been so overbearing.
But, once I perceived she was taking over…She made all the decisions and it became easier to acquiesce than be partners. Since I made her MY parent, I was free to grudge hold, sulk and pout when I didn’t like her decisions.
Okay, it wasn’t sexy but it was my comfort zone. If I could reset the clock back a year I wouldn’t ask her to make any changes. Well…okay…maybe…one change. She would have to back off and allow me to lead.
So if I could reset the clock…I would demand that she trust me 100% to make all the decisions. Then I COULD be the parent and SHE would have to do everything I SAY.
You…are…very…passive/aggressive.
Do you want to save your marriage?
If so, let’s start with changing your attitude about your wife. She is your partner...not your parent.
I have been following your posts and I'll be blunt. You are pretty mean when you speak about your wife.
I can give you one glaring problem right now:
If you ever want to reconcile with your wife...stop blaming her for "forcing you" to adopt your children. It is reprehensible. If you didn't want to adopt your children--then you should have said something. If you want to know what kind of husband you were--go back and read your post on the adoption.
Shame on you. You are like the man blaming his wife for getting pregnant because he didn't wear a condom.
I do not know what your wife's issues are but any man who blames his wife for adoption...
Wow.
Adoption.
Not accidental pregnancy--Adoption.
Stop acting like a grudge-holding teenager waiting for someone to punish her for mistreating you.
You want to go back a year and reset the clock? Tonight is daylight savings time.
Reset it tonight.
You can start by taking an honest inventory of who you really were in your marriage. Not who your wife was...but who you were.
I have a feeling people give you a pass because you are a "nice guy" and your wife sounds pretty headstrong. Nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" unless you use it as a weapon against your spouse.
And the way you use the "nice guy" persona as a weapon is sighing or shrugging helplessly as your spouse "bulldozes" past you...making people "feel sorry" for you. If your spouse has become the "bulldozer" in the relationship it is for one of two reasons:
(1) This is a role that both of you believe your spouse is best suited to fill in the relationship; or,
(2) This is a role you abdicated to your spouse because you didn't want it.
I would also like to give you insight into your wife because I don’t want you to be sucker punched.
It sounds as if you are married to a very "strong" woman. By your own admission you are not a “take-charge” kind of man.
I know a popular theme on this web site is divorced people remarry. But I want to give you insight into something I have never seen in my 20 years of practice:
I have never seen a “strong woman” remarry a man she perceived as “weak.”
By the time it gets to divorce a “strong woman” is completely overwhelmed by the perceived “weakness” of her spouse. And the “weakness” is a barrier which can never be overcome…even if the man “grows strong.” She will argue if he would have become stronger earlier he could have saved the marriage it is “too little—too late.”
Therefore, if you believe you and your wife might reconcile if you divorce I strongly beseech you to reconsider your strategy. Statistics are not in your favor. If your wife is a “strong” woman and she perceives you as someone who does not “take charge” if you divorce, I can almost give you a 100% guarantee she will never remarry you.
I know this is harsh but you are fighting a time clock.
Hope, I hear you. I have thought about this often. That's why I'm telling you that I should have been a better leader for my family. That's completely on me. You are also correct that I have placed that blame on my W, and it's not helped our R at all. Also, on me.
I plan on discussing your observation(s) more with my pastor next week. I think I really need to dig in here, because this part of me needs to be fixed. Thanks for helping me see it more clearly.
FD
Accepting responsibility isn't your problem. I think you readily accept responsibility for everything...whether you are guilty or not.
And that is the problem.
I think a lot of time you accept responsibility when you don't believe you did anything wrong.
I think you honestly believe the "real problem" in your marriage is your wife. And if your wife could do things your way or see why you are a good leader you both would have a happy marriage.
I don't think you trust her problem-solving skills. You don't like the way she handles relationships. You believe she has a short fuse and a critical spirit.
I don't think you see marriage as a team. A partnership.
You need to recognize this is not about you "being a better leader" for your family. It's about you both becoming a team. It's about realizing you both bring strengths to the marriage and you can draw from those strengths.
Stop trying to lead. You don't know what this means. Besides, she won't let you. She moved out and filed divorce papers.
Take a baby step and begin by being a non-judgmental and loving spouse.
I actually have been doing the non-judgmental baby step. She took off and left town. Just got done texting her and let her know I'm glad she had a good time. Old me would have made some drama about it, I did not (one of my 180s). She sent me some pics and I'm glad she got a break. Still I'll ask her at some point to let me know next time before she leaves the state.
Thanks for your insight.
Hope414,
Your observations are a real eye opener, when I read about Fundad I see alot of myself. The critical eye you have cast over this situation has been extremely helpful for me. Its sometimes so hard to see our own reality.
Fundad please read over Hope414s message and make notes about what has been written, I have and I believe its the best help offered to you so far.
Would you object to sharing the texts between you and your wife. It will help me see your communication style.
As a note--You just did it again. The passive/aggressive aggression hidden behind the veil of emotional support:
"She took off and left town. Just got done texting her and let her know I'm glad she had a good time. Old me would have made some drama about it, I did not (one of my 180s). She sent me some pics and I'm glad she got a break. Still I'll ask her at some point to let me know next time before she leaves the state."
You want us to agree your wife was out-of-line for leaving town.
FunDad, she has filed for divorce so technically she doesn't have to give you any information about where she goes or what she does. Providing information is an expectation for people in a relationship. She is dissolving her relationship with you.
Yes, it would be considerate if she kept you abreast of her plans. But her only responsibility is to make provisions for the children. She has zero responsibility to you.
You see...this is what a divorce is. It means, "I am no longer required to provide any information to you about my life."
Yes, you can ask that she let know the next time she leaves but be prepared for her to say "it's none of your business."
I'm sorry. I know it hurts. I know it is frustrating. And I know its not fair.
But, your statement also sends an alarm:
"Old me would have made some drama about it..."
When you say "old you would have made some drama about it..." have you both danced this dance before?
Since you have identified your reaction (and changed your behavior) do you know what triggered her?
If she engaged in this behavior to get a specific reaction from you...changing your behavior won't do any good unless you know what triggered her and here is why:
She will keep escalating until she gets the reaction she wants. Anger is a secondary emotion and usually caused by unmet expectations. If she is trying to create situations where you get angry it is more likely than not she believes she has an unmet expectation and blames you.
You are right about her leaving town is now her prerogative. I have no say in that or input. I think there is an issue however when I bring kids back and she's already gone without telling me or some of the kids. I would not do that to her, and I'd appreciate her not doing that to me.
Your advice about not being judgemental at all about has opened up a window that has allowed me to perform some acts of service for her. She let me come in to her room today and check the foot that she injured on her trip. (Thanks)
Here is our latest text exchange:
m:Do you need help getting to urgent care today?
W:Hmmm maybe.
W:We have no food here and I can't LEAVE TO GO GET ANY...
M:I have another lasagna I can bring after church. Y'all need breakfast stuff too?
Yes. Apparently. Urgent care doesn't open til 1.
I can't put as much weight on it today as yesterday
M:I'll see if I can drop by real quick before we go to church.
W:So maneuvering through the kitchen is something I haven't done yet
M:Dang. Need a wheel chair?
Thanks
No
m:I know where one is.
W:I need food. And I need to go hunt down meds.
You gonna bring food or not?
M:Yes
W:Thank you.
M:You are welcome.
W:Is today your day to visit with kids?
You are right. The children’s safety can never be at risk. If she leaves and is not home when you bring the children back—this is a serious problem. It is irresponsible and must be addressed.
Okay…let’s discuss the text message conversation.
I don’t read the texts as a positive thing or a negative thing. But the tone and messaging is interesting. You said “Old me would have made some drama about it” and your part of the conversation was a 180. But was her part of the conversation normal for her?
If so, it’s very interesting. Either she escalates immediately or she is very expressive. Which is it?
When I ask if she is “expressive” I mean is do you believe she appreciating the irony of the situation? (i.e.: I can’t walk and we have no food in here…and I can’t leave to get any…and now the children WILL STARVE!!! Okay not really—but ugh! This situation is the pitts! Not only am I trapped in the house with no potato chips—I lack the physical ability to get them! Can life get any worse???)
Or does she escalate immediately? (i.e. What is wrong with you? We have no food in the house and the children and whining! If you have enough common sense to realize I can’t drive to urgent care…why can’t you have enough common sense to realize I can’t go grocery shopping?)
So my first question is: Based on her previous behavior--How did you read the all caps portion “We have no food here and I can't LEAVE TO GO GET ANY...”
Was she beginning to escalate or was she being playful?
If she was being playful…you should have played back. But, if she was escalating, I think you handled it perfectly.
The next thing I noticed was she gave you opportunities to voice a concern about her health but you dodged it both times.
W: I can't put as much weight on it today as yesterday
W: So maneuvering through the kitchen is something I haven't done yet
She was reaching out and you should acknowledged her. For example, the conversation could have been:
W: I can't put as much weight on it today as yesterday.
You: Thank you for telling me this or I would have assumed you were getting better. What can I do to help you?
W: So maneuvering through the kitchen is something I haven't done yet
You: I can understand how maneuvering through the kitchen would be tough. I know this incident has made life difficult for you and I would like to lighten your load. What I can do to make this happen?
By doing the above you have done several things:
(1) You have acknowledged her feelings.
(2) You have explained that--if she tells you her feelings--her feelings will be acknowledged in a positive manner.
(3) You have offered help. It is in her court whether she accepts. (Now—You are going to say you that you offered help when you offered a wheelchair. Offering a wheelchair is not offering help. It is offering a solution, not help.)
What you said was, “I’ll get you a wheelchair so you can maneuver around the kitchen.” You gave a very specific solution to the wide-open comment of: “maneuvering through the kitchen is something I haven't done yet…”
What she may have been saying was, “It would be nice if you came over and hung out with us.” But you will never know this because you provided a solution that she didn’t ask for. You may have killed an offer to hang out with the family without even knowing it.
I want you to try something the next time you have an exchange with your wife (text, phone, email, etc.):
Start the conversation by expressing concern and then ask about her. Her health, her job, her family…anything related to her. Then pay attention to her response.
Does she ask for something in her response? Does she express gratitude in her response? Does she express anger in her response?
An example of the conversation would be:
“I’ve been worried about you all day. I wanted to send a text to see how you are feeling.”
If she says:
“Thanks for checking. I’m doing better.” This is a gratitude response. It allows for non-threatening conversation. The correct reply would be, “Great to hear. I worry about you.”
If she says, “I feel worse now than I did this morning. It’s getting really rough.” This is a request response. She needs something from you. The correct reply is, “I’m glad I checked. What can I do for you?” You want to ask “what” you can do not “if” you can do.
If she says, “Why do you suddenly care now?” This is an anger response. This says you mishandled the situation and need damage control. The correct response is, “My concern isn’t sudden. I am always concerned about you. I truly apologize that I made you feel as if I haven’t cared. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
^^^ Holy cow this is great.
And we are in the presence of a master.
I learned a lot from that post!
Wow, more great feedback. Thank you! Today has been interesting. She sprang her foot. I dropped a drink by the clinic for her while she waiting at the Dr. My son drove her so she would not have to. She was appreciative of the drink (I know her favorites).
I see your point on the wheelchair solution. I've always got the fix-it hat close by, unfortunately. However, in the past when she broke her ankle, we used a wheel chair to get her around the house.
Apparently her foodstamp card quit working and she has not enough money for food. She went to the store, and had to leave the cart. I saw the food situation earlier today and they have food. I did offer to take some groceries over for her. No response on that, so I will take some basics for her.
I offered to help get kids to bed to which she said:
"No. Thanks." (Actually this would be a new practice, I normally pray with them when I'm there at night but I don't normally help with getting them to bed).
Escalation vs. Expression - It's Escalation. This is normal for us. Rarely are expressive (unless I'm missing it).
Eliminating Drama - I considered asking MIL where she went, and express my concearn about the situation. This only would have made things worse. Instead, MIL contacted me, and expressed her concearn. I actually helped calm the situation by reassuring her kids were ok and in good hands, reducing Drama.
So I just tried your suggestion (at the end):
W: S10 is being a brat as is D12. I'm injured and pissed off that I had to ducking come get them.
m: Hmm...How can I help with that?
W: No idea I need to go to freaking bed and you got kids so late... I need to get several into showers.
m: I can have D7 & D8 back about 7:30. S14 wants to stay with me till morning. Would it help for me to Hang out and help w/bedtime?
W: No. Thanks.
M: Well, I'm worried about that foot. <waiting for response>
P.S.
Clarification: She lined up a baby sitter for kids when I dropped them off. It was someone I don't know, but the kids know her. She actually did a great job during the week and her and I got along just fine. My wife did leave my number for her.
Wow! You are quick study. I’m proud of you.
At first you dropped the ball because you asked “How can I help” instead of recognizing she was already asking for help. When you said, “How can I help” it sounded sarcastic.
But then you did a great job of recognizing the anger response and offering solutions and empathy. As a note, always provide empathy first.
“I’m worried about that foot. Tell you what, I can have D7 & D8 back about 7:30. S14 wants to stay with me till morning. Would it help for me to hang out and help with bedtime?”
Ok. Today has been a good day, I needed that. Answer to many prayers, that's for sure. Thanks Hope
text conv continued:
me: I'm headed over.
w: Ok. Just drop them off. I'll deal.
w: But maybe you could pick up kids in the morning?
I arrived at her house with groceries and prayed with kids. There was no hostility from her, and she even mentioned some trains she saw on her trip - this came up because the kids and I played with mine today, on the kitchen table (bachelor mode, lol). Anyway, we talked about how the setup she saw could work in our house, so pleasant conversation.
We then discussed the next day and she said it would help her if I took kids to school, so I will. We have a normal schedule but this one is an extra.
Our D process is about to enter mediation. I was able to request more time to gather information, which was needed, but it does give it more time. All it will take is for her to withdraw her original petition for divorce for us to start back tracking. How do I make that easy for her?
Hope is amazing. Pay attention.
FundDad, what is the time frame for divorce in your state? By that I mean when does the divorce petition become final?
Don’t discuss the divorce petition. Let her question her decision about filing the divorce. If you “take care” of the situation she doesn’t have ownership into the solution. She started the process so she has to take ownership into the solution. She knows this.
Here is what I want you to do for tomorrow:
She said it would help if you took the kids to school. Good. She is reaching out. So you are going to take this one step further.
What else needs to be done that she hasn’t asked you to do?
You said that you feel you became a “big child in her eyes to manage.” Okay. Now is your chance to show you have grown up. And a grown up recognizes problems and finds solutions without being told.
What will she need tomorrow? And how can you proactively take care of it in a seamless manner? Remember, she takes care of things every day without you noticing. Start noticing.
For example, from this day forward you should be aware that when you bring the children home late she has to get them showers and to bed. It is difficult to manage this if she has to go to bed early. Offer a solution the next time you pick them up so she is aware that you are aware of the stress placed on her.
The goal is to get her off the anger train. Based on the last couple of text messages you set her off pretty easily.
I think she feels you are obtuse. So we need to change her opinion of you. I think once you start showing you pay attention and effectively problem solve she will allow herself to relax.
More text:
W: Thanks for the food.
m: You are welcome. Thanks for letting me know it would be helpful. Hope you get some rest and the foot heals quickly.
Ok, so D7 has an eye appt. tomorrow. I just asked her if I could help with that. She says: I don't know, thanks, I'm falling asleep.
D can be final 90 days after petition. So that's Mid December. Ironically, on our wedding anniversary.
Btw - shes says she does not have an anger problem, that she has a (insert my name) problem. She actually said this to me earlier today. A few weeks ago I asked if she was getting to talk to her therapist about her anger issues (I know, I'm the last person that should have said that to her in that way). But - she still remembers that and brings it up occasionally.
Another question - this approach seems to be converse from the LRT in the DR book. I see myself being more available to help and being less elusive with what we did today. Honestly I like it, but it's going to be a switch from what I was doing before (not that it was working very well except to help me emotionally).
Rule number one about Fight Club: Don't talk about Fight Club.
Rule number one about a spouse with anger: Don't tell them they have an anger problem. Because usually they don't. Your wife identified it correctly. She has a (insert the name) problem.
When you tell your spouse to seek therapy for an anger management issue you are, in effect, telling them they have mental health issues. And, you are also saying you are not responsible for any of the frustration you are causing in the relationship. This just makes them angrier because you are dismissing their feelings.
It's pious. It lacks empathy.
Instead ask what is frustrating her. This is less judgmental. People can explain frustration. Frustration is socially acceptable. If you are willing to listen to her express frustration you show empathy.
Let a trained therapist deal with your wife's anger. Anger is a secondary emotion.
Regarding the DR books. These are roadmaps not instruction manuals. If what you were doing was not working--stop doing it. The point of 180's is to change your behavior.
But you first have to identify what your actual behavior is.
I find the biggest problem is people they think they have changed their behavior but in fact they are doing the exact same thing--just a different way.
A couple of tings here FD.
The LRT wasn't working for you and Sandi2's signature line even states that this is about finding what works and doing more of that. So, if this works, do more of it, my friend. Hope has not steered me wrong yet. I am starting to see what she is doing and it's not necessarily contrary to DBing just a little contrary to some of the forum opinions sometimes.
Actually, your wife may be right, she does have a FD problem. your job is to cut it out. Come on, man. Do this with me. Let's proactively save our marriages. We can do it! Trust me, I'm in the worst possible place right now to be this fired up (So some of it is fake it till you make it
)
Prayers, my friend
Ok, I'll be more involved and aware of what's going on with her that I normally am. She did not seem to mind that to much today.
God bless you Hope. I appreciate what you have poured into me, and also for my buddy Jefe.
FD
Thanks for the encouragement Jefe. I can see where my wife has had a FD issue. I appreciate that Hope correctly clarified the symptom (anger) and the problem (me). How often is it that we focus on the symptom, rather than the root cause? Interesting.
So far today has gone well. Picked up kids and checked on her. So far so good.
So today we texted during the day some. I had stopped initiating that for a while as to not pursue.
Me: We're you able to get D7's glasses?
W: I'm trying to rest before I go get the girls then get the glasses. I've run errands all morning.
M: Oh wow, that's prob been rough on you.
W: I'm fine. But gonna grab a nap.
M: Good deal
(She latter sent a pic of D7 with new glasses.)
M: Yay!
W: Broke a tooth trying to eat beef jerky
M: Oh no.
W: Have a dentist appt tomorrow
M: That must be painful
(end)
So, this is new. We don't normally text back and forth much play-by-play (lately). I think I'll keep it up while it's still respectful. I used to do this all the time with her and it was a comfort for her (I think).
Good job on the validation. Keep it up.
I agree with Jefe, very good on the validation. You are getting very good at diffusing your wife.
But--My goodness your wife appears accident prone!
Here is what we have learned so far about your wife:
(1) She ignites easily.
(2) She dislikes it when you contact her.
Her texts reveal she considers unsolicited texts an intrusion into her life:
Me: We're you able to get D7's glasses?
W: I'm trying to rest before I go get the girls then get the glasses. I've run errands all morning.
Translation: You are bothering me. I’m tired. Back off.
Then she did it again:
M: Oh wow, that's prob been rough on you.
W: I'm fine. But gonna grab a nap.
Translation: Go away.
But when she contacted you first she wasn’t prickly. I'm not sure if she disliked you contacting her or if she disliked your asking about the glasses and was defending her "right to rest." Either way--she got defensive and wanted you gone.
So take note: Do not initiate any further conversations unless it is relay information.
Thanks Gang. Yes, she is very accident prone. :-)
Ok, I'll back off on the initiation and let her be the one, good insight on that.
I found something I need to check on for the kids to make sure their subscription is current. This is one of those "grown up" things to do that she probably has let slip. I'll mention it to her as a side note when we speak next.
FD
Had a good meeting with my attorney today. I presented a simple solution that is backed up sufficient information that may keep us from having to go into mediation.
Was also able to play drums at my home church again tonight. Lots of fun and reconnecting with old friends.
On the W front, we exchanges some texts, some business, some friendly. a pretty good day all-in-all.
Been praying for the folks on this board. I know being a LBS is so gut-wrenching. Our human bodies and emotions were not designed to hold this much hurt, and in some cases anger. Cast that stuff on the Lord, and let him him take it. He will, and will bring you peace.
FD
I had some criticism thrown at me from the wife today during pick ups. I help get them to & from school two or three times a week. I've asked that all the kids be ready when I come by so I don't have to make two pick-ups from her house in the morning (I need to be at work on time). The teen was still showering and not ready. She was starting to anger up a bit and said "You want it that way out of convenience for you". I was not ready for her rude comment and I wish I would have handled it better. I said, "So now I'm on convenience trial?" and told her I'll be back in a bit and I left. I thought about asking her to take the teen herself, but I came back and got him after dropping off my two D's. I think it's reasonable to want to avoid several trips, but she's convinced I'm being selfish on this aspect. The teen likes to sleep later and it gives him an extra 15 min if I make two pick ups. It makes it harder on me to get around town and back to work on time however. The W seems to look for things like that to point out that I'm being self-centered.
I've learned the better response on a firey dart like that is to simply say "I understand". Instead I pushed her back, when I could have acknowledged her feelings. At least I did not stick around and argue with her however.
That's good. It's progress.
""You want it that way out of convenience for you"" Um, well, yeah. Duh.
Do you realize she told you her issue and you ignored it?
"You want it that way out of convenience for you".
Yes, you help the kids “get to and from school two or three times a week” but what is she doing before you get there? And…who gets them to school when you don’t?
Okay, you have asked that “all the kids be ready when you come by so you don’t have to make two pick-ups” from her house in the morning because “you need to be to work on time” but who do you think has the stress of enforcing this request?
The kids or your wife?
So when the kids aren’t ready and you get annoyed…who do you think you are criticizing?
Let me translate what you said this morning:
“Wife, you have failed in your job to get the kids ready…AGAIN!”
Again, we go back to your problem-solving issues.
If the teen likes to sleep later and isn’t ready when you get there then your issue is with the teen. Not your wife.
You are the father—go deal with it. If the other kids are lollygagging around instead of getting ready…and this is delaying you…go take care of it.
Why are you angry at your wife?
She’s not the problem. Your kids are the problem. They know what time you will be there. Why are they disrespecting you? Why are you letting them? Why are you angry at your wife because you have allowed your kids to treat you like this?
Don’t blame your wife. You are an equal partner in the raising of your children. When there is a problem with the kids your first instinct should be to work with your wife and develop a successful strategy to deal with the problem.
Not blame your wife for becoming angry at your passive parenting.
The truth is—your wife isn’t the person pointing out self-centered behavior.
Thanks Hope. That's good insight. I'll have a chance to try again at this on Friday. She really does not like me hanging out in her house much but she does really appreciate it when I take kids in the mornings. I'll ask her what I can do to help get teenager going in the morning.
Hello FunDad. What if your asked her, "How would you feel if..." and then make a suggestion for how you can take action to make sure the teen gets going in the morning (like, "... I told him to do x"). This instead you of asking your W to think of something you can do to help. It could show you're actively taking the lead in your family while making her feel heard.
Even better.^^^^
If you ask what you can do, you are asking her to make the decisions again. If you ask, how would you feel if, you're making the decisions and considering her feelings.
This morning went much better. Last night I asked the teen to be ready on time and he was. I ended up making a couple trips anyway however because D7 forgot her back-pack. It made D7 feel cared for that we went back for it.
I'm a tough love person. Forget your backpack? You can explain why you aren't prepared for school and then make plans not to forget it again.
Same with lunches.
Consequences hekp kids become responsible for age-appropriate tasks. It builds independence.
Normally that's my mode of operation (consequences), but today because I had some extra time so I went the grace route. She was also ready on time and acting better then normal also. The extra conversation was good for us also.
Things have not gotten any better or worse in the past 4 days. Today my wife cracked her phone and immediately was asking me via text to fix it, and offered to pay me to do it even. I've not responded to that yet as I feel its cake eating. Any thoughts on this?
"I've not responded to that yet as I feel its cake eating."
Why do you feel it's cake-eating? She asked you for a favor and it's up to you whether or not you want to do it. That's not cake-eating and I don't think you understand what that means.
Maybe not. Thanks for the clarification.
I've ordered a screen for her and will fix it.
I've removed my ring. To me it was a symbol of the pain we are leaving behind and I'm ready to let that go. I feel like I'm burying a loved one. It's triggered some sadness and I'm a bit of a mess, but I feel it's time to do this. I'll put it up later somewhere safe with hers. Letting go of the rope, letting my heart free, and accepting she's moved on. I'm not giving up, just moving to a safer place emotionally so I can focus.
Hi Fundad, removing the ring is a big symbolic step. It seems you are wise in choosing this time to do it. Stay strong.
Tough night. I feel like I had a mini-funeral. I put both of our rings in a case and stowed them away in the closet. Going to watch a movie with my S14 now.
Not having the ring on has been a good thing I believe. I'm not sure if my wife noticed or not, but the extra detachment has helped me act more myself and less insecure around her. I'm not having to think about the detachment rules as much and I can actually focus on her needs more. She was having another rough day today. Our D13 is about to have a birthday and money is tight, more on her end than mind. So I purchased the gift, and I offered to help with other party things so my W can feel less depressed about it. She wanted to play some blame game with me and I simply said "I understand" and did not fight her back whatsoever. She was crying and depressed and I told her "I'm sorry" (no hugs or physical contact). She said things like I'm the "fun" parent now and that I need to accept responsibility and she was upset that I'm out playing drums so much. Anyway, to help cheer her up I shared an amazing beverage with her twice today that I know she cherishes (pumpkin spice cappuccino). I had loaded up a big thermos of it for a cold football game today that I took my boys to. Gave her some in the morning and asked if she wanted some this evening, and she drank all I had left. I also told her she looks pretty, she just got a short hair cut. I think it's good that her and I were talking about her feelings, and talking about ways that I can help. We don't talk about the D process, but it's still moving along. I'd love to marry her again. So, a good day I think. :-)
Fundad, have your read all the posts by
Bob1967? From his first post to his last?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2474583&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2487605&page=1Could it be possible you and Bob share a similar viewpoint of your wife?
If so, what would you tell Bob to do differently if he were looking at the ticking clock of a divorce?
Or...would you tell him to do anything different?